#2344 - Amjad Masad

Amjad Masad is the founder and CEO of Replit, a cloud-based coding platform. He is also an outspoken voice on cultural and educational shifts in technology. www.replit.com The ultimate wireless hack. Make the switch at https://visible.com/rogan Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:13Joe Rogan?

  What's up?

• 0:13Speaker 01

  What's up, man? Good?

• 0:14Joe Rogan?

  So, having this big Counter-Strike tournament in town, does that give you the Joneses?

• 0:19Speaker 01

  Totally, totally. You know, it's like, so your guy, Jason, was telling me about it, because, you know, in addition to driving, he also flies the helicopter. And he told me, like, the Red Bull guys were, like, flying off, and there's, like, this big tournament. I looked it up, and it was like, oh, Counter-Strike. So I used to be a bit of a pro player myself.

• 0:40Joe Rogan?

  So, how do you get out of pro playing? Because the problem with, like, playing games is that it's essentially like an eight-hour-a-day thing. Like, it becomes a giant chunk of your life, right? And I would imagine if you're playing pro, it's even more of a commitment.

• 0:54Speaker 01

  You know, I take a different view on games. You know, a lot of people kind of view it as a sort of somehow, like, a negative thing, especially for kids. Actually, I got my kid, my four-year-old, like, a Nintendo Switch early on. We're playing together. Because I feel like, for me, it helped me a lot with, like, strategy thinking, with reaction time. I think, like, gamers tend to be, can think really fast, and...

• 1:20Joe Rogan?

  Have you seen the studies that they've done about surgeons?

• 1:23Speaker 01

  No, tell me.

• 1:24Joe Rogan?

  Surgeons that play video games regularly are much less likely to make mistakes.

• 1:29Speaker 01

  I totally believe it, yeah.

• 1:30Joe Rogan?

  It's something in the neighborhood of 25%. Is that what it is, Jamie? Something like that? But so much so that I would say you should teach video games to surgeons. Like, it should actually be, like, a required thing, like, cross-training.

• 1:43Speaker 01

  Right. Isn't the army also recruiting from gamers today as well? That's what I heard.

• 1:47Joe Rogan?

  I would imagine, like, drone pilots, right? I mean, that would make a big difference. Especially if you can get them used to, like, the same controllers.

• 1:53Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 1:54Joe Rogan?

  You know, because, you know, those controllers kind of become a part of your hand. Like, you know exactly where all the buttons are.

• 1:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:00Joe Rogan?

  If you're a kid that's playing fucking Counter-Strike, or whatever it is, Call of Duty, every day, I would imagine that, that just becomes second nature.

• 2:08Speaker 01

  Dexterity, yeah, yeah.

• 2:09Joe Rogan?

  What is the thing with surgeons? It's nuts, right? It might be higher than 25%.

• 2:15Speaker 01

  It was a very particular kind of surgery though too, but it was like, uh, I mean, they're almost using controls.

• 2:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but this, that they were making less mistakes. I, I don't think it's entirely negative.

• 2:26Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 2:26Joe Rogan?

  Uh, cause I love games. I love playing them, but I love them so much that I don't play them because I know I don't have any time.

• 2:32Speaker 01

  It's Quake is your, your favorite game, right?

• 2:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah. So you're here at 27, oh, 37% decrease in errors.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  That's wild.

• 2:39Joe Rogan?

  27% faster task completion time. That's nuts.

• 2:43Speaker 01

  And so, so those guys grew up, uh, playing video game or did they get them on video games?

• 2:48Joe Rogan?

  Says more than three hours per week.

• 2:50Speaker 02

  I think they were still playing when they were doing the study.

• 2:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. So like that, I mean, imagine something that you, like a pill you could take that would give you a 37% decrease in errors. And a 20%, 27% faster task completion.

• 3:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:05Joe Rogan?

  That would be an incredible pill.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:06Joe Rogan?

  Like you would, you would make every surgeon take it. Did you take your video game pill before you do surgery? Hey man, don't operate on my fucking brain unless you take your video game pill.

• 3:15Speaker 01

  You know, that's, that's, uh, you know, next time I'm, I need to have a surgery or whatever. I'm just gonna ask the doctor if they're game.

• 3:20Joe Rogan?

  How much do you game, bro?

• 3:23Speaker 01

  But you, Jamie and I were talking about the one thing, and maybe that's kind of showing, showing our age a little bit, but the one thing that's kind of like a little weird slash, I don't know, somehow like a little dystopian is the whole streaming situation. Where like kids are not like playing the game, they're like watching someone play the game.

• 3:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's not good.

• 3:40Speaker 01

  And it's like this zombifying thing where like they'll, they'll spend hours just watching people.

• 3:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, just TikToking. It's essentially like TikTok, but video games, right? Cause TikTok is kind of this mindless thing. You're just scrolling through mindless things. And now you're mindlessly watching someone else play a game.

• 3:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like someone is, like there's this strange thing with technology where like someone is living life and doing things and you're like sort of a, it's almost voyeurism or something like that about it. You know, uh, David Foster Wallace, um, you know, the guy from Infinite Jest. Wrote a, uh, wrote a, uh, essay on, on TVs and you know, he, he, he committed. Suicide before before like, you know, the emergence of of mobile phones and things like that. But he was very prescient on the impact of technology on on on society, especially on on America. And he was also like addicted to TV and he he talked about how, you know, it activates some kind of

• 4:41Speaker 01

  something in us that is, you know, something in human nature about voyeurism. Uh, that's the thing that that television and TikTok and things like that activate and it's like this negative addictive kind of behavior that's like really bad for society.

• 4:56Joe Rogan?

  I definitely think this is an aspect of voyeurism, but there's just a dull drone of attention draw. There's a dullness to it that just like sucks you in like slack jawed. It is watching nonsense over and over and over again that does just enough to captivate your attention, but doesn't excite you, doesn't stimulate you, doesn't necessarily inspire you to do anything. That is the first fly we've ever had in this room.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  Boom.

• 5:24Joe Rogan?

  Oh, I was gonna kill it. That was the, you're a nice person.

• 5:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:27Joe Rogan?

  That's evil people would have killed that fly right away. But it's, um, it's just this thing where it doesn't do a lot. It's not like, you know, like, have you ever done Disney World?

• 5:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:41Joe Rogan?

  Did you ever do Disney World in Florida where you do that drought, the, there's the Avatar ride?

• 5:46Speaker 01

  No, I I just went to a California one.

• 5:48Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 5:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:49Joe Rogan?

  The Avatar ride is, uh, Flights of Freedom? Flights of Passage. Flights of Passage?

• 5:54Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 5:54Joe Rogan?

  Um, you're, it's a VR game.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 5:57Joe Rogan?

  Well, a, a, you know, a ride rather. And you put on a VR helmet and you get on this like motorcycle looking thing and you're essentially riding a dragon. It's unbelievably engaging. It's incredible. It's the best ride I've ever been on in my life.

• 6:10Speaker 01

  That's cool.

• 6:10Joe Rogan?

  Like you're flying around, you feel the breeze, you're on this thing and the sounds are incredible. That's like engrossing, right? Like it takes over you.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  Stimulating, yeah.

• 6:20Joe Rogan?

  But that's not what you're getting from like TikTok or like streaming. You're getting this uh, this dull, so it's sustainable.

• 6:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wonder which is worse, this or like opium habit or something?

• 6:34Joe Rogan?

  I know people that have done opium that are like functional.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:38Joe Rogan?

  You know, they can, they can take pills and like, I mean, I'm sure eventually their life falls off the rails. But it's like sort of semi, they're semi-functional when they're on these things. They can hold down a job and show up every day. And they're just like semi-functional opiate.

• 6:56Speaker 01

  There's a dude, I watched like a YouTube video, but like he's known for having this contrarian opinion on, on drugs. That you can like control it, like you can, you can do these drugs.

• 7:06Joe Rogan?

  What does he look like?

• 7:07Speaker 01

  I don't know. Um, I think he's a black dude.

• 7:10Joe Rogan?

  Oh, Carl Hart, Dr. Carl Hart.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  He was here?

• 7:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, he's been here a couple of times. He's great.

• 7:15Speaker 01

  What do you think of his ideas?

• 7:18Joe Rogan?

  I think it's entirely biologically variable. Um, I know people that cannot drink. They, they drink and then they're gone. They get like hamsterized, like, like they'll like get these black eyes where they're like their soul goes away and then they're just off to the races and picking up hookers and doing cocaine and they find themselves in Guatemala.

• 7:37Speaker 01

  Oh shit.

• 7:38Joe Rogan?

  They're just nuts. They can't drink.

• 7:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:40Joe Rogan?

  I can drink. I, I, I don't, I don't pretend that the way my body handles alcohol is the way everybody's body handles alcohol. I think that's the same with everything. I think that's the same, most certainly with marijuana. I know some people that just cannot smoke marijuana and other people, it's fine.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:59Joe Rogan?

  I think it's very, we're all very different physically.

• 8:03Speaker 01

  It's interesting, uh, alcohol, uh, is, um, is sort of on the downtrend all of America, but, but, uh, especially with the young people, uh, especially in Silicon Valley. Hmm. Um, everyone there, um, listens to Huberman.

• 8:18Joe Rogan?

  Ah.

• 8:19Speaker 01

  I call him the grand Mufti of Silicon Valley. Cause he'll say, no, no alcohol, no drinking. Everyone's like, don't drink. And like all the parties are now like mocktails and, and, and things like that and.

• 8:29Joe Rogan?

  There are probably a lot of boring conversations, unfortunately.

• 8:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's a little boring. I mean, it's the very repetitive. It's all kind of like, will AI kill us and.

• 8:36Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 8:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:38Joe Rogan?

  You guys would know better than anybody.

• 8:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:40Joe Rogan?

  You guys are at the forefront of it, unfortunately.

• 8:44Joe Rogan?

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• 9:28Joe Rogan?

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• 11:27Joe Rogan?

  Quit drinking. I quit drinking over three months ago.

• 11:31Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. I know you guys did, uh, used to do, uh, Sober October.

• 11:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. And that wasn't that hard. And, you know, I was like, God, it's gonna be one whole month. And then I did, I was like, that's pretty easy. But I just had some revelations, I guess. And I think the big one is just physical fitness. I work out so much and I would drink and go, go to my club and have a couple, not a lot either. Just have a few drinks and the next day just feel like total shit.

• 11:59Speaker 01

  I think with age especially, it starts affecting you more. It's always been like that. Always?

• 12:03Joe Rogan?

  It's always been like that. I've always been hungover after a night of drinking. But it's, you don't feel it normally. Like in normal life, if I just did normal stuff, it'd be fine. It's when you're in the gym that you notice.

• 12:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:15Joe Rogan?

  When you're doing like second and third set of squats or something like that, you're like, oh, God.

• 12:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, 100%.

• 12:22Joe Rogan?

  And I haven't had any bad days since I quit drinking.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  Oh, cool.

• 12:26Joe Rogan?

  I've eliminated all of that. And I'm like, just that alone is worth it.

• 12:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:32Joe Rogan?

  For just that alone, it's worth quitting.

• 12:34Speaker 01

  So, uh, why do you think there's a, there's this trend? Is it, is it mostly for health?

• 12:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Well, I think there's a big health trend with a lot of young people. I think a lot of young people are recognizing the value of supplements. And there's a fly. There's a difference between you and me. I'm gonna kill this motherfucker. First fly I've ever had in here, Jamie, that's kinda crazy. Been here five years, one fly.

• 12:55Speaker 01

  Brought it with me from California.

• 12:56Joe Rogan?

  He, he snuck in, cause there's a lot of steps that motherfucker has to go through to get into this room. I think a lot of people are very health conscious. That's the rise of cold plunging and sauna use and, you know, all these different things like intermittent fasting, where people are really paying attention to their body and really paying attention and noticing that if you do follow these steps, it really does make a significant difference in the way you feel. And maybe more importantly, the way everything operates, not just your body, but your brain. It's like your function, your cognitive function improves with physical fitness. And, you know, if you're an ambitious person and you want to do well in life, you want your body to work well, you know, alcohol's not your friend.

• 13:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I wonder how much of it is your impact because those things, you got me into all of these things, you know, through your podcasts. My wife and I just built like a small kind of spa in our home with like a cold plunge and a sauna and a hot tub. And I'll try to do it every day. You know, something you say, I keep saying to myself is like conquer your inner bitch.

• 14:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  It's like this is such a good, and I feel like cold plunge especially kind of, it's just something, regardless, health benefits or not, something about it, like just mental toughness, like trying to do it every day. And every day I chicken out, every day I'm like, I don't want to go in, right? But.

• 14:28Joe Rogan?

  I do too.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:29Joe Rogan?

  My inner bitch speaks the loudest when I'm lifting the lid off the cold plunge. My inner bitch is like, don't do this, you don't have to do this. You could do whatever you want, you're a free man, you go have a sandwich, you know?

• 14:41Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 14:42Joe Rogan?

  But you just got to decide that you're the boss.

• 14:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think a lot of what discipline is for me is that, again, even keto and I did carnivore and these diets.

• 14:55Speaker 01

  Like, I'm not sure how much health benefits there is. I feel like keto is is really good on your like blood sugar. Keeps you kind of on a, you know, even keel kind of throughout the the day. But for me, whenever there's like a lot of chaos in my life, I look at what can I control?

• 15:12Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  And typically diet is the first thing, whatever it is, I'm like, I'm gonna go carnivore, I'm gonna go keto. And the the fact that I can control that and and and enforce discipline on myself kind of puts me puts me at ease. And I feel like I can control the other thing in my business, family or life.

• 15:32Joe Rogan?

  But that mindset is probably how you stop playing video games every day.

• 15:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:35Joe Rogan?

  Because I would imagine, like we were talking about earlier, like that addiction is one of the strongest addictions I've ever faced in my life.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:44Joe Rogan?

  Like when I was taught, if I would be talking to people and the conversation was boring, I'd be like, I could be playing Quake right now.

• 15:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:49Joe Rogan?

  Why am I here having this boring ass conversation where I could be launching rockets at people and having a good time?

• 15:56Speaker 01

  But the other thing for me is programming. So I got into programming early in my life. I was six years old when my father bought a computer. I was born and raised in Amman, Jordan. And, you know, we're the like first people in I know ever, yeah, at the time that had a had a computer. And I remember.

• 16:17Joe Rogan?

  What year was this?

• 16:18Speaker 01

  Nineteen ninety-three, I was six years old.

• 16:20Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so ninety-three, so what kind of computer was that? Was that like an old school IBM?

• 16:26Speaker 01

  IBM PC, MS-DOS, Microsoft DOS.

• 16:29Joe Rogan?

  So you did the real deal.

• 16:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know a lot of Americans would would like get a Mac as their first computer. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we, you know, we didn't have that. I actually wasn't introduced to Apple until until kind of recently in my in my life.

• 16:43Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 16:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:44Joe Rogan?

  Like recently, recently?

• 16:45Speaker 01

  Like, no, like, you know, twelve years ago, thirteen years ago, when I moved to the US.

• 16:49Joe Rogan?

  God, Apple has such a stranglehold in America. It's really incredible.

• 16:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's amazing, but you know, we didn't know much about it. So I got into into DOS. I remember one of my earliest memories is, you know, standing behind my father as he was kind of pulling up this like a huge manual and like learning how to like type of commands. And he was like, you know, finger typing those commands. And then I would like watch him and then and then after he leaves, I'll go and like try those things. And one day he caught me, he was like, what are you doing? Like, I know how to do this. I'll I'll show you. And so I knew how to like start games, like do a little programming, do a little scripting. And you know, that's how I got into into computers and I was obsessed. And initially, it sort of got me into gaming. But then you want to mod the games.

• 17:38Speaker 01

  Have you ever done any modding?

• 17:40Joe Rogan?

  I've done a few things like turn textures off and stuff like that. And yeah.

• 17:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's another thing that I think is healthy about gaming is like a gateway to programming.

• 17:50Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 17:50Speaker 01

  Gateway drug to programming.

• 17:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 17:52Speaker 01

  And so I got I got into that into like modding like Counter Strike and things like that. Those are fun. And then just like the feeling that you can make something is just like such a profound.

• 18:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:03Speaker 01

  Such a profound feeling. And that's really kind of what I carried through my whole life and became sort of my life mission. Now with my company, Replit, what we do is like we make it so that anyone can become a programmer. You just talk to your phone and your app sort of like chat G P T and it starts coding for you. It's like a program, a software engineering agent.

• 18:26Joe Rogan?

  Right, so it's like the A I guides you through it.

• 18:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, not only guides you through it, it codes for you. So you're you're sort of, you know, you know, programmers typically, you know, you know, think about the idea a little bit about the logic. But most of the time, they're sort of wrangling the syntax and the I T of it all. And I thought that was always, you know, additional complexity that doesn't necessarily have to be there. And so when when I saw, you know, a GPT for the first time, I thought this, you know, this could potentially like transform programming and make it accessible to more and more people. Because it really transformed my life. You know, the reason I'm in America is because I invented a piece of software. And I thought, you know, if

• 19:12Speaker 01

  you make it available to more people, they can, they can transform their lives.

• 19:17Joe Rogan?

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• 20:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, so my dad, my dad is a Palestinian refugee.

• 20:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you were telling me the story, and I want to get into that, because it's kind of crazy. Like, tell the whole story of how this wound up happening.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So my family is originally from Haifa, which is now in Israel. And they were expelled as part of the 1948 Nakba, where Palestinians were sort of kicked out. And they went to like

• 20:44Joe Rogan?

  How does your dad describe that? How old was he when that was going on?

• 20:47Speaker 01

  My father was born in Syria. So my grandma, and my grandpa, and my uncles were kind of kicked out. And the way they would describe that is, they tried to fight, they tried to like, keep their home. But it was like this overwhelming force. They weren't organized. There wasn't, they were just like People, it wasn't, they didn't really have an army, at least in that, in that place. And, and eventually at gunpoint, they, they took their homes and, and tell them to go. If, if you're down south, you went to Gaza, and that's why like seventy percent of Gazans are refugees from Israel, like the, the people that are, you know, getting massacred right

• 21:28Speaker 01

  now are originally from Israel, from the land that we, that people call Israel today. And then if, if you're in the north, like Haifa, Ryafah, whatever, you went, you went like to Lebanon, you, or, or to the West Bank, or to, or to, to, or to Jordan, or Syria. So my family went to Syria, my father was, was born in Syria. But my grandfather was like a railroad engineer. So they were like, you know, they were like city people that were urban, they, so they couldn't like, you know, they wanted to, to, you know, have a place where, where they can, you know, there's, there's, they wanted to live in a city.

• 22:11Speaker 01

  And so originally, the West Bank didn't work for them, and they ended up in Syria. But then Amman, Jordan was kind of coming up, and there was a lot of opportunities there. So my father was born in Syria and then moved to Amman when they were six years old and built the life there. And they really kind of focused on education and trying to kind of rebuild their life from scratch. So my father and all my uncles kind of went and got educated in Egypt, Turkey, places like that. And so my father got an engineering degree, civil engineering degree from, from Turkey. And he was always interested in, in technology.

• 22:48Joe Rogan?

  That whole thing, we're kicking people out of Palestine, is such an inconvenient story today. When, when people are talking about Israel and Palestine and the conflict, they, they do not like talking about what happened in nineteen forty-eight.

• 23:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think it's important, like I think, I think for us to to reach some kind of peace, which is really hard to talk, talk about when, when you see what's happened in Gaza, even, even yesterday.

• 23:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, the, the people that were waiting for food got bombed.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:21Joe Rogan?

  It's insane, and it, no one wants to talk about it.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  Right, and, and but if you.

• 23:25Joe Rogan?

  And if you do talk about it, you're antisemitic, which is so strange. I do, I don't know how they wrangled that.

• 23:31Speaker 01

  Well, it's been, it's been hard for me in, in tech, because, you know, like, probably the only, you know, prominent Palestinian in tech that, that, that is talking about it. And so that's a.

• 23:41Joe Rogan?

  Do you get pushback?

• 23:42Speaker 01

  Oh, of course.

• 23:43Joe Rogan?

  Like, what do people say to you?

• 23:44Speaker 01

  Uh, antisemitic.

• 23:47Joe Rogan?

  How is it antisemitic?

• 23:48Speaker 01

  I criticize the state of Israel, our, our position, every moderate Palestinian that I know, their position is like, two-state solution, we need the emergence of, of the state of Palestine, you know, uh, and, and that's the best way to, ending the occupation is the best way to guarantee peace and, and security even for Israelis.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  And, uh, but, but, yeah, it's, it's just like, it's used, it sort of reminds me, you know, in tech, we went through this like, quote unquote, woke period, where you couldn't talk about certain things as well.

• 24:24Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 24:25Speaker 01

  And.

• 24:26Joe Rogan?

  Has that gone away?

• 24:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah?

• 24:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally gone away, yeah.

• 24:30Joe Rogan?

  What do you, what do you think caused it to go away?

• 24:32Speaker 01

  Um, Elon.

• 24:34Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 24:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, like Twitter, buying Twitter.

• 24:37Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 24:37Speaker 01

  Buying Twitter is the single most impactful thing for free speech, especially on, on these issues um, of, of being able to, you know, um, talk, talk freely about a lot of subjects that are more sensitive.

• 24:52Joe Rogan?

  Imagine if he didn't buy it.

• 24:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that would have been.

• 24:55Joe Rogan?

  Imagine if the same ownership was in place, and they, and then Harris wins, and they continue to ramp things up.

• 25:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know what you think of the new administration. Certainly, there are things that I like about and some of their pro-tech posture and things like that, but what's happening now is kind of disappointing.

• 25:17Joe Rogan?

  It's insane. We were told there would be no... There's two things that are insane. One is the targeting of migrant workers, not cartel members, not gang members, not drug dealers, just construction workers showing up in construction sites and raiding them, gardeners. Like, really?

• 25:41Speaker 01

  Or Palestinian students on college campuses. Or not, like, there's a Turkish... Did you see this video of this Turkish student at Tofu University that wrote an essay? And then there's a video of ICE agents like...

• 25:57Joe Rogan?

  Was that a woman?

• 25:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 25:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. What was her essay about? It was just critical of Israel, right?

• 26:02Speaker 01

  Just critical of Israel. Yeah, I mean...

• 26:04Joe Rogan?

  And that's enough to get you kicked out of the country?

• 26:06Speaker 01

  There's a long history of anti-colonial activism in US colleges that led to South Africa changing and all of that, and I think this is a continuation of that. I mean, I don't agree with all their... Like, there's a lot of radicalism. A lot of young people are attracted to more radical positions on Israel-Palestine.

• 26:29Joe Rogan?

  Which I don't mind those positions as long as someone's able to counter those positions.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:37Joe Rogan?

  The problem is, these supposed free speech warriors want to silence anybody who has a more conservative opinion. That's not the way to handle it. The way to handle it is have a better argument.

• 26:47Speaker 01

  That's not American.

• 26:48Joe Rogan?

  It's not American.

• 26:49Speaker 01

  What attracted him to this country from the moment that we started consuming American media and American culture is freedom, is the concept of freedom, which I think is real.

• 27:02Joe Rogan?

  It is. I was watching this psychology student from... I think he's from Colombia, but he has a page on Instagram. I wish I could remember his name because he's very good. He's a young guy, but he had a very important point, and it was essentially that fascism rises as the overcorrection response to communism, and that we essentially had this Marxist communism rise in...

• 27:29Joe Rogan?

  First universities and then it made its way into into business because these people left university and then found their way into corporate America and then they were essentially instituting those and then the blowback to that, the pushback is this fascism.

• 27:46Speaker 01

  And that was that happened like last century?

• 27:49Joe Rogan?

  Well, they're talking about

• 27:51Speaker 01

  Now?

• 27:51Joe Rogan?

  Forever historically. He's talking about like over time, whether it's Mao, whether it's Stalin, like fascism is the response almost always to communism.

• 28:02Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 28:03Joe Rogan?

  And that, you know, what we're, what we experience with this country is this continual overcorrection, overcorrection to the left, then overcorrection to the right to counter that. And the people that are the rat, that's the guy, Anthony Rispoe, that's it. Really, very smart guy and very interesting thing. Jamie Hedges nailed that that quick. Good job, buddy.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  You said those words right as I saw. Decades of training.

• 28:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  Communism fascism.

• 28:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, communism came first, fascism came response, now today's left tears down norms and destabilizes the country under the guise of progress. We're watching the conditions for another reaction build. History doesn't repeat, but it echoes. Yeah.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  Do you know this, this like theory? I know you've had Mark Andreessen on the show, this James Burnham managerial revolution theory?

• 28:57Joe Rogan?

  No, not, not by hand.

• 28:59Speaker 01

  I'm not an expert in it, but like the, the idea is that like communism fascism and even some form of capitalism that sort of we're living under right now is like managerialism is the idea that, you know, capitalism, capitalism used to be this idea that the, the owner founders of those companies of, you know, capitalist companies were running them. And, and it was like, it was like true capitalism of sorts, but.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  Both communism and fascism share this property of centralized control and like a class of people that are sort of managerial and maybe those are the elite sort of Ivy, Ivy League students that are trained to be managers and they they grow up in the system, kind of bred to become like managers of these companies and today's America is like trending that way where it is like a managerial society.

• 30:04Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 30:05Speaker 01

  In Silicon Valley, there's like a reaction to that right now. People call it founder mode, where a lot of founders felt like they were losing control of their companies because they're hiring all these managers and these managers are running the companies like you would run Citibank. And and then, you know, a lot of founders were like, no, we need to, we need to run those companies like we built them.

• 30:28Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 30:29Speaker 01

  And Elon is like, obviously at the forefront of that.

• 30:32Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 30:33Speaker 01

  I once visited XAI when they were just starting out, Elon's AI company, and there were like 70 people, all of them reported to Elon. They didn't have a single manager on staff.

• 30:45Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  And they would send him an email every week. I was like, what did you get done this week?

• 30:51Joe Rogan?

  Right. Well, that was the outrageous thing that he asked people to do at Doge.

• 30:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 30:56Joe Rogan?

  And people were freaking out. Five minutes a week. What are the things you accomplished this week? How, you know, he said, all you have to do is respond.

• 31:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 31:04Joe Rogan?

  And they didn't want, they pushed back so hard.

• 31:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:07Joe Rogan?

  On being accountable for their work.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:09Joe Rogan?

  But that's government for you.

• 31:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:12Joe Rogan?

  You know, I mean, government is the grossest, most incompetent form of business.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 31:17Joe Rogan?

  You know?

• 31:18Speaker 01

  It's a monopoly.

• 31:19Joe Rogan?

  It's complete, total monopoly.

• 31:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:21Joe Rogan?

  Like, the way he described some of the things that they found at Doge, it's like you could never run a business that way.

• 31:27Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 31:28Joe Rogan?

  Because not only would it not be profitable, the fraud would get you arrested. You'd go to jail for something that's standard in the government.

• 31:36Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 31:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 31:38Speaker 01

  I mean, my, my opinion of, of, you know,

• 31:43Speaker 01

  Talented people, people like Elon, things like that, is that we should be in the free market. I think, you know, you can do little change in government. As best we can sort of expect our government to get out of the way of innovation. Let people, let founders, entrepreneurs innovate and make the market more dynamic. But again, going back to this idea of materialism, like if you look at the history of America, one like really striking stat is like the new firm creation, new startups in the United States have been like trending down for a long time. Although there's all this stock of startups in Silicon Valley and all of that.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  But in reality, there's less entrepreneurship than there used to be. And instead, we have the system of conglomerates and really big companies and monopsony, which is the idea that like the banks or BlackRock like owning competitors as well, owning all these companies and they implicitly collude because they have the same owners. And all of that is sort of anti-competitive. So the market has gotten less dynamic over time. And this is also part of the reason I'm excited about our mission at Raplet, to make it so that anyone can build a business. Actually, on the way here, your driver, Jason, is a fireman. And so I was telling him about our business and he does, he does training for other firemen

• 33:11Speaker 01

  around the country, you know, flies around and he does it out of pocket and just for the love of the game. And he was like, yeah, I've had this idea for websites. So I can like scale my teaching, I can like, you know, make it known when, where am I going to be giving a course? Put the material online and we were like brainstorming, potentially this could be, could be a business. And I feel like everyone, like not everyone, but like a lot of people have business ideas, but they are constrained by their ability to make them. And then you go, you try to find software agency and they quote you sort of a ton of money. Like we have a lot of stories, you know, there's this guy.

• 33:52Speaker 01

  His name is John Chaney, he's a user of our platform, he's a serial entrepreneur, but whenever he wanted to try ideas, he would like spends hundreds of thousands of dollars to to kind of spin up an idea off the ground. And now he uses Replit to to try those ideas really quickly. And he recently make an app in like a number of weeks, like three, four, five weeks, that that made him $180,000. So on its way to, you know, generate millions of dollars. And because he was able to build a lot of businesses and try them really quickly.

• 34:29Joe Rogan?

  Right, without the big investment.

• 34:31Speaker 01

  Without the big investment, without other people, which, you know, at some point you need more collaborators, but early on in the brainstorming and in the prototyping phase, you want to test a lot of ideas. And so it's sort of like 3D printing, right? Like 3D printing, although, you know, people don't think it had a lot of impact on on industry, it's actually very useful for prototyping. I remember talking to Jack Dorsey about this, and early on in Square, they would, you know, they had this Square device, and it was amazing, you would plug it into the headphone jack to accept payments, do you remember that? And so they, a lot of what they did to kind of develop the form factor was using 3D printing, because it's a lot faster to kind of iterate and prototype and test with the users.

• 35:16Speaker 01

  And so software, you know, over time, like when I was, you know, I explained how when I was growing up, it was kind of easier to get into software, because you boot up the computer and you get the MS DOS, you get the, it immediately invites you to program in it. Whereas today, you, you know, buy a, you know, iPhone or tablet, or, and it is like a purely consumer device, it has like all these amazing colors and does all these amazing things, and kids get used to it very quickly, but it doesn't invite you to to program it. And therefore, we we kind of lost that sort of hacker ethos, there's less programmers, less people who are making things, because they got into it organically, it's more like

• 36:00Speaker 01

  they go to school to study computer science, because someone told them, do you have to study computer science? And I think making software needs to be more like a like a trade, like you don't really have to go to school and spend four, five years and hundreds of thousands of dollars to to learn how to make it.

• 36:17Joe Rogan?

  Well, what I'm hearing now is that young people are being told to not go into programming. Because AI is essentially going to take all of that away. That you're just going to be able to use prompts. You're just going to be able to say, I want an app that can do this.

• 36:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:32Joe Rogan?

  I want to be able to scale my business to do that. You know, what should I do?

• 36:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what we built. That's what Replit is. It automates the.

• 36:41Joe Rogan?

  But do you agree with that? That young people shouldn't learn programming? Or do you think that there's something very valuable about being able to actually program?

• 36:49Speaker 01

  Look, I think that you will always get value from knowledge. I mean, that's a timeless thing.

• 36:56Joe Rogan?

  That's a wise thing, right?

• 36:57Speaker 01

  You know, it's like, you know, you and I are into cars, right? Like, I don't really have to, you know, tune up my car anymore. But like, it's useful to know more about cars. It's fun to know about cars, you know? If something happens, if, you know, if I go to the mechanic and he's doing work on my car, I know he's not going to scam me because I can understand what he's doing. It is, you know, knowledge is always useful. And so I think people should learn as much as they can. And I think the difference, though, Joe, is that when I was coming up in programming, you learned by doing. Whereas, you know, it became this sort of like very sort of traditional type of learning where you use like a textbook learning. Whereas I think now we're back with AI.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  We're back to an era of learning by doing. Like, when you go to our app, you see just, you know, text prompts. But a couple of clicks away, you'll see the code. You'll be able to read it. You'll be able to ask the machine what you did there. Teach me how this code, piece of code works.

• 37:58Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's cool.

• 37:59Speaker 01

  And so, you know, a lot of kids are learning.

• 38:02Joe Rogan?

  Kids are such sponges, too. They're such sponges. My kids already know way more about. I'm like, how did you do that with your phone? And my daughter, are you doing this or that? You get their little thumbs moving a hundred miles an hour.

• 38:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 38:15Joe Rogan?

  How'd you figure that out? TikTok? What?

• 38:17Speaker 01

  Dude, the craziest thing is we have a lot of people making software from their phone. They'll spend eight hours on their phone because we have an app. They'll spend eight hours on their phone kind of making software.

• 38:27Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 38:28Speaker 01

  And that's better than watching TikTok.

• 38:30Joe Rogan?

  Way better.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  Makes me very happy about that. And so we just.

• 38:34Joe Rogan?

  You're accomplishing something.

• 38:35Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 38:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you're not just.

• 38:36Speaker 01

  You're making creation, right?

• 38:37Joe Rogan?

  Just droning.

• 38:38Speaker 01

  The act of creation is divine.

• 38:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 38:41Speaker 01

  We we just announced a partnership with the government of Saudi Arabia, where they want their entire population essentially to learn how to make software using AI. So they have they set up this new company called Humane, and the Humane is this, you know, end to end value chain company for AI, all the way from chips to to software. And they're partnering with a lot of American companies as part of the, you know, the the coalition that went to Saudi like a few months ago with President Trump to do the deals with the with the Gulf region. And so they're doing deals with AMD, Nvidia, a lot of other companies. And so we're one of the companies that partnered with the Humane.

• 39:24Speaker 01

  And so we want to bring AI coding to literally every student, every government employee, every because the thing about it is it's not just entrepreneurs that's going to get something from it. It's also if you're so my view of the future where AI is headed is everyone's going to become an entrepreneur.

• 39:40Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 39:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, and so, you know.

• 39:42Joe Rogan?

  So this is the best case scenario future?

• 39:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:45Joe Rogan?

  As opposed to everyone goes on universal basic income and the state controls everything?

• 39:50Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 39:50Joe Rogan?

  And it's all.

• 39:50Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 39:51Joe Rogan?

  Everything is done through automation.

• 39:53Speaker 01

  I don't believe in that at all.

• 39:53Joe Rogan?

  You don't?

• 39:54Speaker 01

  I don't.

• 39:54Joe Rogan?

  No?

• 39:54Speaker 01

  I don't.

• 39:55Joe Rogan?

  Okay, good. Help me out, man.

• 39:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:58Joe Rogan?

  Give me the positive rose colored glasses view of what AI is going to do for us.

• 40:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, so AI is good at automating things. I think there's a there's a premise to to human beings still, like I think humans are. So fundamentally, the technology that we have, large language models today, are statistical machines that are trained on large amounts of data, and they can do amazing things. I'm so bullish in AI, like I think it's going to change the world. But at the same time, I don't think it's replacing humans because this it's not generalizing, right?

• 40:37Speaker 01

  AI is like a massive remixing machine. It can remix all the information it learned. And you can generate a lot of really interesting ideas and really interesting things. You can have a lot of skills by remixing all these things. But we have no evidence that it can like generate a fundamentally novel thing or like a paradigm change. Like can you go, can a machine go from Newtonian physics to like quantum mechanics? Like really have a fundamental disruption in how we understand things or how we do things?

• 41:11Joe Rogan?

  Do you think that takes creativity?

• 41:13Speaker 01

  I think that's creativity for sure.

• 41:14Joe Rogan?

  And that's a uniquely human characteristic? For now?

• 41:19Speaker 01

  For now, definitely for now. I don't know forever. Actually, one of my favorite G R E episodes was Roger Penrose. Do you remember him?

• 41:28Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  So do you remember the argument that he made about why humans are special? He, he said something like, he believes there are things that are true that only humans can know it's true, but machines cannot prove it's true. It's based on Gödel's incompleteness theorem. And the idea is that you can construct a mathematical system where it can, where it has a paradoxical statement. So for example, you can say, G, you can say, this statement is not provable in the machine.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  Or like the machine cannot prove this statement. And so if the machine proves this statement, then that statement is false. So you have a paradox. And therefore, the, the statement is sort of true from the perspective of an observer like a human, but, but it is not provable in this system. So Roger Penrose says these paradoxes that are not really resolved in mathematics and machines are no problem for humans. And therefore, his sort of like a bit of a leap is that therefore there's something special about humans and we're not fundamentally a computer.

• 42:54Joe Rogan?

  Right. That makes sense. I mean, whatever creativity is, whatever allows you to make poetry, or jazz, or literature, like whatever, whatever allows you to imagine something and then put it together and edit it and figure out how it resonates correctly with both you and whoever you're trying to distribute it to. There's something to us that's different.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  I mean, we don't really have a theory of consciousness. And I think it's like sort of hubris to think that, that like consciousness just like emerges. And it's plausible, like I'm not totally, you know, against this idea that you built a sufficiently intelligent thing and suddenly it is conscious. But, but there's no, there's no, it's like a religious belief that, that a lot of Silicon Valley have is that, you know, there's, you know, consciousness is just like a side effect of, of intelligence. Or that consciousness is not needed for intelligence. Somehow it's like this super, superfluous thing. And they

• 44:05Speaker 01

  try not to think or talk about consciousness because actually consciousness is hard.

• 44:09Joe Rogan?

  Hard to define.

• 44:10Speaker 01

  Hard to define, hard to understand scientifically. It's what I think Chalmers calls the hard problem of, of consciousness. But, but, you know, I think it is something we need to grapple with. We, we have one example of general intelligence, which is human beings. And human beings have very important property that we can all feel, which is consciousness. And that property, we don't know how it happens, how it emerges. People like Roger Penrose are like, you know, they have, they have these theories about quantum mechanics and microchubils. I don't know if you got, got into that with him, but I

• 44:51Speaker 01

  think he has a collaborator, he's, he's neuroscientist Hammeroff, I think, or something like that.

• 44:58Speaker 01

  And but people have so many theories. I'm not talking, I'm not saying Penrose is has the answers. But like it's something that philosophers have grappled with forever. And there are a lot of, there are a lot of interesting theories. Like there's this theory that consciousness is is primary. Meaning like the material world is a projection of our collective consciousness.

• 45:26Joe Rogan?

  Yes. Yeah, that is a very confusing but interesting theory. And then there's, there's a lot of theories that everything is conscious. We just don't have the ability to interact with it. You know, Sheldon Drake has a very strange view of consciousness.

• 45:42Speaker 01

  Who's Sheldon Drake?

• 45:42Joe Rogan?

  Rupert Sheldon Drake.

• 45:43Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 45:45Joe Rogan?

  His, he's got this concept, I think it's called morphic resonance. And see if you can find that so you could define it so I don't butcher it. But there's people that believe that consciousness itself is something that everything has and that we are just tuning into it. Morphic resonance, a theory proposed by Rupert Sheldon Drake, suggests that all natural systems, from crystals to human, inherit a collective memory of the past instances of similar systems. This memory influences their form and behavior, making nature more habitual than governed by fixed laws.

• 46:23Joe Rogan?

  Essentially, past patterns and behaviors of organisms influence present ones through connections across time and space.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  That's wild. And is he, is he a scientist or is this more like a new age?

• 46:35Joe Rogan?

  What is his exact background? Harvard?

• 46:39Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 46:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 46:40Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 46:40Joe Rogan?

  So he's a parapsychology researcher, proposed the concept of morphic resonance, conjecture that lacks mainstream acceptance, has been widely criticized by as pseudoscience. Of course.

• 46:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:51Joe Rogan?

  Anything interesting.

• 46:52Speaker 01

  That sounds interesting, though. Yeah. But there are philosophers that have a sort of a similar idea of, of, of like this sort of universal consciousness. And like humans are like getting a slice of that consciousness. Every one of us is tapping into some sort of universal consciousness.

• 47:12Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 47:13Speaker 01

  By the way, I think, I think there are like some psychedelic people that think the same thing. That like when you take psychedelic, you're just like peering into that universal consciousness.

• 47:21Joe Rogan?

  Yes. Yeah, that's the theory.

• 47:25Joe Rogan?

  Because it's, that's also the most unknown. I mean, the experience is so baffling that people come back and the human language really lacks any phrases, any words that sufficiently describe the experience. So it's, you're left with this very stale, flat, one dimensional way of describing something that is incredibly complex.

• 47:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:56Joe Rogan?

  So it always feels, even the descriptions, even like the great ones like Terrence McKenna and Alan Watts, like their descriptions fall very short of the actual experience. Nothing about it makes you go, yes, that's it. He nailed it. It's always like, kinda, yeah, kinda, that's it.

• 48:12Speaker 01

  Do you still do it?

• 48:13Joe Rogan?

  Not much. You know, it's super illegal, unfortunately. That's, that's a real problem. It's a real problem, I think, with our world, the Western world, is that we have thrown this blanket, this blanket phrase. You know, we talk about language being insufficient. The word drugs is a terrible word to describe everything that affects your consciousness or affects your body or affects, you know, performance. You know, you have performance enhancing drugs, you know, like steroids. And then, you know, you have amphetamines and then you have opiates and you have highly addictive things.

• 48:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, coffee.

• 48:55Joe Rogan?

  Things that, coffee, nicotine. And then you have psychedelics.

• 48:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 48:59Joe Rogan?

  I don't think psychedelics are drugs. I think it's a completely different thing.

• 49:03Speaker 01

  It's really hard to get addicted to them, right?

• 49:05Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's almost impossible. I mean, you could, you could certainly get psychologically addicted to experiences. And I think there's also a real problem with people who use them and think that somehow or another they're, just from using them, gaining some sort of advantage over normal society. And that's, that's.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  You don't think that's true?

• 49:26Joe Rogan?

  I think it's a spiritual narcissism that some people, you know what I mean?

• 49:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 49:31Joe Rogan?

  That I think it's very, it's, it's very foolish and it's a trap. You know, I think it's like it's a similar trap that like famous people think they're better than other people because they're famous.

• 49:42Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 49:43Joe Rogan?

  You know what I mean?

• 49:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I felt that with with a lot of people who get into sort of more eastern philosophy is that is that there's a there's this thing about them where it feels like there's like this air of

• 49:56Joe Rogan?

  Arrogance.

• 49:57Speaker 01

  Arrogance.

• 49:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 49:58Speaker 01

  That like I know something more than you know.

• 50:00Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right. And that's what they they hold it over you. That's the trap. But that doesn't mean that there's not valuable lessons in there to learn. I think there are. And I think there's valuable perspective enhancing aspects to psychedelic experiences that we are we're denying people, you know, you're denying people this potential for spiritual growth, like legitimate spiritual growth, like

• 50:25Speaker 01

  And healing.

• 50:25Joe Rogan?

  Personal, yeah, healing.

• 50:26Speaker 01

  Like there's a

• 50:27Joe Rogan?

  Well, the Iba game thing they're trying to do in Texas, I think, is amazing. And they've passed this. So this is also with the help of former governor Rick Perry, who is a Republican. But he's seen what an impact Iba game has had on soldiers.

• 50:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:41Joe Rogan?

  And all these people that come back from the war.

• 50:43Speaker 01

  Horrible PTSD.

• 50:43Joe Rogan?

  Horrible PTSD and, you know, suicidal. We lose so many servicemen and women to suicide.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:50Joe Rogan?

  And this has been shown to have a tremendous impact.

• 50:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:55Joe Rogan?

  And so because of the fact that a guy like Rick Perry stuck his neck out, who's, you know, a Republican former governor. And you would think last person ever.

• 51:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 51:05Joe Rogan?

  But because of his experiences with veterans and his love of veterans and people that have served this country, they've passed that in Texas. I think that's a really good first step.

• 51:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:14Joe Rogan?

  And the great work that MAPS has done, um, MAPS working with, uh, with MDMA primarily.

• 51:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:23Joe Rogan?

  With doing the same thing and working with people that have PTSD.

• 51:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:27Joe Rogan?

  There's so many beneficial compounds.

• 51:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, ketamine is one. I think that's a lot of research happening right now on on depression specifically, right?

• 51:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah. So there's quite a bit, there's quite a bit of research.

• 51:41Speaker 01

  Have you heard, I don't know if it's true, but have you heard of, um, mushrooms healing long COVID?

• 51:49Joe Rogan?

  I don't know what long COVID means because everybody I've talked to that has long COVID was also vaccinated. I think long COVID is vaccine injury. That's what I think. I think in a lot of cases.

• 52:01Speaker 01

  So there's, there is such a thing as like the post-viral malaise or effect. It's always been there.

• 52:09Joe Rogan?

  Sure. Well, there's a detrimental effect that it has to your overall biological health, right? You know, your overall metabolic health. But what, what causes someone to not rebound from that? And what causes someone to rebound fairly easily? Well, mostly it's metabolic health. You know, other than like extreme biological variabilities, vulnerabilities that certain people have to different things, you know, obviously.

• 52:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe that's why I think, so there's a lot of these long COVID protocols. Metformin is usually part of it. So maybe that's, that acts on your metabolic system.

• 52:43Joe Rogan?

  Well, yeah, metformin is one of the anti-aging protocols that Sinclair uses and a lot of these other people that are into the anti-aging movement.

• 52:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:52Joe Rogan?

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• 54:57Joe Rogan?

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• 55:15Speaker 01

  You know, I had this weird thing happen where I started feeling fatigued like a couple, a few years ago. And I would sleep hours. And the more I sleep, the more tired I get in the morning.

• 55:31Joe Rogan?

  Did you get blood work done?

• 55:33Speaker 01

  I got blood work done. And there were some things about it that I needed to fix, and I fixed all of them.

• 55:40Joe Rogan?

  What was all?

• 55:41Speaker 01

  Lost, you know, blood sugar in the morning, cholesterol, which I don't know, some people don't believe. But, you know, all my numbers got better. Vitamin D, everything got better. But, and I could feel-

• 55:56Joe Rogan?

  Did the fatigue get better?

• 55:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I could feel marginal improvement, but the fatigue did not, did not get better.

• 56:02Joe Rogan?

  Were you vaccinated?

• 56:04Speaker 01

  No.

• 56:04Joe Rogan?

  No. Good for you. That's hard to do in Silicon Valley.

• 56:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I tend to have a negative reaction to anyone forcing me to do something.

• 56:17Joe Rogan?

  Good for you.

• 56:17Speaker 01

  Was the same thing now with like this, you know, talking about Palestine and things like that. Like, the more they they come at me, the more I wanna say things. It just, it's not always a good thing, but I think, you know, I grew up this way. I've always kind of looked different and like, you know, felt different.

• 56:34Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's a reality to this world that there's a lot of things that people just accept that you're not allowed to challenge that are deeply wrong.

• 56:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, and with regards to the vaccine, I was also informed about it. Like, it was clear early on that it wasn't a home run. It wasn't, well, first of all, it wasn't gonna stop the spread. So that was a lie. And the heart condition in young men.

• 57:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 57:02Speaker 01

  It was real, and I had friends that that had this issue.

• 57:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 57:05Speaker 01

  And so if you're, if you're, if you're healthy and like, why, why, you know, why take the vaccine? It doesn't stop the spread. You can still get the virus.

• 57:18Joe Rogan?

  I'll tell you why.

• 57:18Speaker 01

  What?

• 57:19Joe Rogan?

  Money.

• 57:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:20Joe Rogan?

  It's the only reason why.

• 57:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:21Joe Rogan?

  It's the only reason why. The only reason why they wanted to make an enormous amount of money. And the only way to do that is to essentially scare everyone into getting vaccinated, force, coerce, do whatever you can, mandated at businesses, whatever you can. Mandated for travel. Do whatever you can. Shame people.

• 57:38Speaker 01

  That's, that's the thing that is really disheartening about American culture today is, and again, I love America. Like, it afforded me so much. I'm like, you know, I'm the like walking evidence of the American dream being possible, coming with literally nothing.

• 57:55Joe Rogan?

  That's what I really love about immigrants that love America. Like, they know. They've been other places. They know that this really is a very unique place.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  Right, and the speech thing is interesting because when, when something happens, there's this, I don't know, you can call them useful idiots or whatever, but there's this suppression that immediately happens.

• 58:15Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 58:15Speaker 01

  And we're seeing it right now with the war in, in Iran, where any dissenting voices are just like hit with overwhelming force.

• 58:25Joe Rogan?

  Don't you think that a lot of that is coordinated, though? I think with social media, well, you know, we've talked about that ad nauseam, but I think.

• 58:33Speaker 01

  I don't think it was coordinated with COVID, like the two weeks to stop the spread. It was just like.

• 58:37Joe Rogan?

  But it was coordinated and also people joined in.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, maybe there was a message pushed top down and then, and then the.

• 58:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's not all coordinated. It's coordinated first and, and, and still, but then a bunch of people do the man's work for the man.

• 58:54Speaker 01

  I, I, I think it comes from a good place. Like, I, a lot of people want to trust the authorities. Uh, like they, you know, they're like pro-science. They view themselves as enlightened, like the.

• 59:06Joe Rogan?

  Educated.

• 59:06Speaker 01

  Liberal type, you know?

• 59:08Joe Rogan?

  Rational.

• 59:08Speaker 01

  Rational, educated and, uh, but, but, um, I, I think they're naive about the, uh, uh, the corruption in our institutions and, and the, the corruption of, of money specifically. Uh, and so they, they parrot these, uh, these things and become overly aggressive at like suppressing dissenting voices.

• 59:31Joe Rogan?

  Yes, yes. It becomes a religious thing almost.

• 59:34Speaker 01

  But here's the sort of white veil about America. Uh, then there are voices like yours and, and others, um, that, uh, that, that create this pushback that, and you took a, like a big hit, you know, it's probably was very stressful for you, but like, you know, you, you could see there's this pushback and then, and then it starts opening up and maybe people can talk about it a little bit and, and then slowly opens up and now there's a discussion. And so I think, you know, I, I said, you know, something right now about America is, is challenging, but also the flip side of that is there's this correction mechanism.

• 1:00:12Speaker 01

  And again, with the opening up of platforms like Twitter and other, by the way, a lot of others copied it, you know, you had Zuck here, you know? I, I worked at Facebook. I know that was very. You know, very, you know, let's say, I think he always held free speech in high regard, but there was a lot of people in the company that that didn't.

• 1:00:34Joe Rogan?

  Yes, I would agree with that.

• 1:00:36Speaker 01

  And and and there was suppression, but but then now it's it's it's the other way around. I would say with the exception of of the question of Palestine and Gaza.

• 1:00:46Joe Rogan?

  Isn't that interesting?

• 1:00:47Speaker 01

  But even that, even that is, even that is is is getting better.

• 1:00:51Joe Rogan?

  Does at least some pushback, it's available, it's just, it's not promoted.

• 1:00:57Speaker 01

  You know, it's interesting, you're, not to continuously, I don't mean to kind of, you know, I've been really impressed with Thee Von, Tim Dillon, they're, you know, they're sincere and they're they're looking at what's happening in Gaza and they're seeing images and they're saying, this is not what we should be as America. We should, we should be pro, pro-life, pro-peace.

• 1:01:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  And and I really appreciate that. And that's starting to to open up.

• 1:01:35Joe Rogan?

  I think in the future, that will be the primary way people look at it, just the way, like, the way a lot of people opposed the Vietnam War in the late 60s, but it was, you know, you would get attacked. And I think now people realize, like, that was the correct response. And I think in the future, people realize the correct response is like, this is not, yeah, October 7th was awful, absolutely.

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  Obviously.

• 1:02:02Joe Rogan?

  Terrible attack.

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:02:04Joe Rogan?

  But also, what they've done to Gaza is fucking insane.

• 1:02:06Speaker 01

  It's insane.

• 1:02:07Joe Rogan?

  And if you can't see that, if you can't say that, and your response is, Israel has the right to defend itself, like, what are you talking about? Against what, children?

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:02:17Joe Rogan?

  Against women and children that are getting blown apart, against aid workers that are getting killed?

• 1:02:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:22Joe Rogan?

  Like, what are you talking about? Like, we can't have a rational conversation if you're not willing to address that.

• 1:02:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think their heart is hardened, if I'm trying to be as chatty as as possible, like. The Israelis specifically, maybe from the October seven, what they saw there, their heart is hardened. And I think a lot of people, especially on the Republican side, they're unable to see the Palestinians as, as, as humans.

• 1:02:51Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:02:52Speaker 01

  Especially as, as, as people with emotions and feelings and, and, and all of that.

• 1:02:57Joe Rogan?

  Like, imagine if that was happening to Scandinavia, you know?

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:00Joe Rogan?

  Right?

• 1:03:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:03:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:02Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:03:02Joe Rogan?

  It's very strange.

• 1:03:03Speaker 01

  My, my kid, my five-year-old kid called me two days ago. They're in Amman, Jordan. They're visiting their grandparents. And I was in the car and he, I, I, it was FaceTime. And the moment the camera opened, he's like, "What are you doing? Why are you outside? There are sirens, there are rockets. You have to go inside." And I'm like, "Dada, like, I, I am in California. We don't have sirens and, and rockets." And then I asked him, like, "Are you, are you afraid?" Because you're hearing that. This is a California kid.

• 1:03:43Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  Like, this is, yeah, he's never, you know, he didn't have the upbringing that I had. And, and so it's the first time he's getting exposed to, I don't think he understands what war is.

• 1:03:52Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  And I was like, "Are you afraid?" And he's like, "No, I'm afraid that other people are, you know, I, I want everyone to be okay."

• 1:04:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  And, and, but I know he was, he was shook by it. And I took him out. I, you know, they're on their way back. I just couldn't.

• 1:04:12Joe Rogan?

  Of course. It's just a bad place to be right now.

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  But, but also, like, this conversation is happening in the, in the West Bank. It's happening in Israel. It's happening in Gaza. You know, people want peace. People want, want to live.

• 1:04:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:26Speaker 01

  People want to trade. People want to build.

• 1:04:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:28Speaker 01

  And this is what I made my life mission about, is about giving people tools to build, to improve their lives. And, and I think we're just led by maniacs.

• 1:04:38Joe Rogan?

  Exactly.

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  And so.

• 1:04:39Joe Rogan?

  Exactly. That's exactly what it is. You have people that are in control of large groups of people, that convince these people that these other large groups of people that they don't even know are their enemies. And those large groups of people are also being convinced by their leaders that those other groups of people are their enemies. And then rockets get launched and it's fucking insane. And the fact that it's still going on in 2025 with all we know about corruption and the theft of resources and and power and influence, it's crazy that this is still happening.

• 1:05:13Speaker 01

  I'm really hoping the internet is finally reaching its potential to start to open people's minds and and and remove this like veil of propaganda and and ignorance because it was starting to happen in like 2010, 2011. And then you saw YouTube start to to to close down, you saw Facebook start to close down, Twitter. And and suddenly we had like this period of of darkness.

• 1:05:42Joe Rogan?

  Censorship.

• 1:05:43Speaker 01

  Censorship between, you know, definitely ramped up in 2015.

• 1:05:48Joe Rogan?

  And I think with good intentions initially, I think the people that were censoring thought they were doing the right thing. They thought they were silencing hate and misinformation. And then the craziest term, malinformation. Malinformation is one that drives me the most nuts because it's actual factual truth that might be detrimental to overall public good. Just like, what does that mean? Are we are people infants? Are they unable to decide that whether this factual information, how to use that and how to how to have a more nuanced view of the world with this factual factual information that's inconvenient to the people that are in power? That's crazy.

• 1:06:29Speaker 01

  It's crazy.

• 1:06:30Joe Rogan?

  It's it's in, you're turning adults into infants and you're turning the state into God.

• 1:06:35Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:06:36Joe Rogan?

  And that's, this is the secular religion. This is the religion of people that are atheists.

• 1:06:41Speaker 01

  The West was never about that. The West was about individual liberty.

• 1:06:45Joe Rogan?

  And it should be.

• 1:06:46Speaker 01

  And and the idea that we have. Um, functioning brains and minds, we're conscious.

• 1:06:53Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:06:54Speaker 01

  We can make decisions, we can get information and data and make our own opinions of things, but.

• 1:06:58Joe Rogan?

  And we, we should be able to see people that are wrong.

• 1:07:01Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:07:02Joe Rogan?

  You should be able to see people that are saying things that are wrong, that you disagree with. And then it's your job, or other people's job, to have counter arguments.

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 1:07:12Joe Rogan?

  And the counter arguments should be better.

• 1:07:14Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:07:15Joe Rogan?

  And then.

• 1:07:15Speaker 01

  Debate.

• 1:07:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and that's how we learn, and that's how we grow. This is not like a pill that fixes everything. This is a slow process of understanding.

• 1:07:24Speaker 01

  It's top-down control, it's the managerial society.

• 1:07:26Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:07:26Speaker 01

  You know, it is not that different from fascism and communism and all of that stuff. They all share the same thing. There's like an elite group of people that know everything and they need to manage everything. And we're all plebs, you know.

• 1:07:37Joe Rogan?

  But that's what's crazy is the elite group of people, I've met a lot of them, they're fucking flawed human beings. And they shouldn't have that much power.

• 1:07:43Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:07:43Joe Rogan?

  Because no one should have that much power.

• 1:07:45Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 1:07:45Joe Rogan?

  And this is, I think, something that was one of the most beautiful things about Elon purchasing Twitter. Is that it opened up discussion.

• 1:07:53Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:07:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you've got a lot of hate speech, you've got a lot of like legitimate Nazis and crazy people that are on there too, that weren't on there before. But also you have a lot of people that are recognizing actual true facts that are very inconvenient to the narrative that's displayed on mainstream media.

• 1:08:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:11Joe Rogan?

  And because of that, mainstream media has lost an insane amount of viewers.

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:08:16Joe Rogan?

  And their relevancy, like the, the, the trust that people have in mainstream media is at an all-time low.

• 1:08:21Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:08:22Joe Rogan?

  As it should be, because you can watch, and I'm not even saying right or left, watch any of them on any like very important topic of world events. And you see the propaganda. It's like, it's so obvious, it's like for children.

• 1:08:37Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:08:38Joe Rogan?

  It's like, this is so dumb.

• 1:08:40Speaker 01

  Why do you think people fall for it so?

• 1:08:41Joe Rogan?

  Boomers, man. Boomers are the problem. It's old people. It's old people that don't use the internet or don't really truly understand the internet and really don't believe in conspiracies. Like fucking Stephen King the other day, who I love dearly. I am a giant Stephen King fan, especially when he was doing cocaine. I think he's the greatest writer of all time, for, for horror fiction. But he tweeted the other day, I'm sorry to, like, see if you could find it. Something about, uh.

• 1:09:09Speaker 01

  Is he on Twitter? I think he went to Blue Sky.

• 1:09:11Joe Rogan?

  Oh, he bailed on Blue Sky. They all bail on Blue Sky. Everyone bails on Blue Sky. That there is no deep state. Fucking, what was the total thing of it? Something about the deep state, but it was such a goofy tweet. It's like, this is like boomer logic personified. In a tweet. By a guy who really, someone needs to take his phone away, because it's fucking ruining his old books for me. But it's not, like, I recognize he's a different human now, and he's really, really old, and he got hit by a van, and he's all fucked up. But, this, can you find it?

• 1:09:53Joe Rogan?

  Because it really, it was like, yesterday, or the day before yesterday, I just remember looking at it and go, this is why I'm off social media. I was trying to stay off social media, but somebody sent it to me. I was like, Jesus fucking Christ, Stephen King. Did you find it? Here it is. "I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but there's no Santa Claus, no teeth, no tooth fairy. Also, no deep state, and vaccines aren't harmful."

• 1:10:22Joe Rogan?

  "These are stories for small children, and those too credulous to disbelieve them." That is boomerism. That is boomerism. And meanwhile, Brock counters it right away. Look at this. So, someone says, "Grock, which vaccines throughout history are pulled from the market because they're found to be harmful, and why?" And Grock says, "Several vaccines, but withdrawn due to safety concerns, though such causes are rare." "Rotavirus vaccine." Well, there's a lot more, because this is all the shit, yeah.

• 1:10:50Speaker 01

  Was especially bad.

• 1:10:51Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah. The, yeah, the 1955 Cutter Institute polio vaccine was called "Live Virus Kill," caused over 250. Click on show more.

• 1:11:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, there's. Oh, I got the fly.

• 1:11:04Speaker 01

  Nice.

• 1:11:04Joe Rogan?

  Uh, Gillian Barr, however you say that, that's the one where people get their, half their face paralyzed. There's a lot, and this is the other thing is the VAERS system that we have is completely rigged because it reports a very small percentage and most doctors are very unwilling to submit vaccine injuries.

• 1:11:28Speaker 01

  Can people go on their own and submit?

• 1:11:31Joe Rogan?

  I don't know.

• 1:11:32Speaker 01

  You have to go to a doctor?

• 1:11:33Joe Rogan?

  I don't think so. I don't think a human being is allowed, a patient is allowed. I might be wrong though. But, you know, the real interest, there's a financial interest in vaccines. There's a financial interest that doctors have in prescribing them and doctors have, they're financially incentivized to vaccinate all of their patients and that's a problem. That's a problem because they want that money. And so, you know, what is Mary's, Mary Tally, is it Bowden? She's hyphenated. She was talking about on Twitter that if she had vaccinated all of her patients in her very small practice, she would have made an additional 1.5 billion dollars.

• 1:12:11Speaker 01

  Oh wow.

• 1:12:12Joe Rogan?

  That's real money. You know, and that really, obviously she's got tremendous courage and, you know, and she was, you know, she went through hell dealing with the universities and newspapers and media calling her some sort of quack and crazy person, but what she's saying is absolutely 100% true. There's financial incentives that are put in place for you to ignore vaccine injuries and vaccinate as many people as possible.

• 1:12:43Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:12:44Joe Rogan?

  That's a problem.

• 1:12:45Speaker 01

  And then there's the issue of having their own special courts and

• 1:12:49Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 1:12:50Speaker 01

  indemnifying the companies.

• 1:12:52Joe Rogan?

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• 1:15:00Joe Rogan?

  Because when, during the Reagan administration, when they were, "I didn't kill a fly this motherfucker. I thought I whacked him." There he is. He's taunting me. But during the Reagan administration, they made it so that vaccines are not financially liable to any side effects. So, and then what do you know, they fucking ramp up the vaccine schedule tenfold after that. It's like...

• 1:15:21Speaker 01

  What a coincidence.

• 1:15:22Joe Rogan?

  Crazy. It's just money, man. And money is a real problem with people. Because when people live for the almighty dollar and they live for those zeros on a ledger, and that's, that's what they're, that's their goal, their main goals.

• 1:15:35Speaker 01

  And it's often not a lot of money, which is strange. I mean, it's a lot of money for those individual people, but like for... You know, society and societal harm. It's like, no, we'll pay you just like doing harmless.

• 1:15:46Joe Rogan?

  Well, one of the best examples is the fake studies that the sugar industry funded during the 1960s that showed that saturated fat was the cause of all these heart issues and not sugar. That was like $50,000.

• 1:16:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:16:01Joe Rogan?

  They bribed these scientists. They gave them $50,000 and it ruined decades of people's health.

• 1:16:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:07Joe Rogan?

  Who knows how many fucking people thought margarine was good for you.

• 1:16:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:16:11Joe Rogan?

  Because of them.

• 1:16:12Speaker 01

  Uh, there, there's a bunch of recent fraud cases. I think Stanford, uh, maybe Jamie, you can, uh, fact check me on that, but Stanford like, um, there was like a big shakeup, like maybe even a president got fired and there's a bunch of recent fraud and, and, and science.

• 1:16:28Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:16:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:29Joe Rogan?

  Well, how about the Alzheimer's research? The whole amyloid plaque thing, the papers that were pulled that were completely fraudulent. That like decades of Alzheimer's research was just all horse shit.

• 1:16:42Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:16:42Joe Rogan?

  See if you can find that, because I can't remember it offhand, but this is a giant problem and it's money. It's money and status and that these guys want to be recognized as being the, the experts in this field and they, you know, and then they get leaned on by these corporations that are financially incentivizing them. And then it just gets really fucking disturbing.

• 1:17:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:17:07Joe Rogan?

  It's really scary because you're, you're playing with people's health. You're playing with people's lives and you're giving people information that you know to be bad. Allegations of fabricated research undermine key Alzheimer's theory. Six-month investigation by Science Magazine uncovered evidence that images in the much cited study published 16 years ago in the journal Nature may have been doctored. They are doctored.

• 1:17:28Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:17:29Joe Rogan?

  Um, Huberman actually told me about this too. You know, this is disturbing fucking shit, man. It uncovered evidence that images in the much cited study published 16 years ago may have been doctored. These findings have thrown skepticism on the work of, I don't know how to say his name is, Sylvain Lesnay, neuroscientist and associate professor at the University of Minnesota, and his research would fuel the interest in a specific assembly of proteins as a promising target for the treatment of Alzheimer's research. He didn't respond to NBC News's request comments, nor did provide comment to Science Magazine. It found more than 20 suspect papers.

• 1:18:07Speaker 01

  That's a conspiracy.

• 1:18:09Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm. Identified more than 70 instances of possible image tampering in his studies. Whistleblower Dr. Matthew Schrag, a neuroscientist at Vanderbilt University, raised concerns last year about the possible manipulation of images in multiple papers. Carl Herup, a professor of neurobiology at the University of Pittsburgh Brain Institute, who wasn't involved in the investigation, said the findings are really bad for science. "It's never shameful to be wrong in silence," said Herup, I hope I'm saying his name right, who also worked at the school's Alzheimer's research center, disease research center. "A lot of the best science is done by people being wrong and proving first if they were wrong and then why they were wrong. What is completely toxic to sign is to be fraudulent, of course."

• 1:18:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, there's just, whenever you get people that are experts and they cannot be questioned, and then they have control over research money, and they have control over their departments...

• 1:19:04Speaker 01

  What's the motivation here? Is it drugs, or is it the, just research money?

• 1:19:08Joe Rogan?

  I think it's, a lot of it is ego, you know? A lot of it is being the gatekeepers for information and for truth, and then you're influenced by money. You know, to this day, I was watching this discussion, they were talking about the evolution of the concept of the lab leak theory, and that it's essentially universally accepted now, everywhere, even in mainstream science, that the lab leak is the primary way that COVID most likely was released, except these journals. These fucking journals like Nature, there's...

• 1:19:45Joe Rogan?

  Still pushing back against that. They're still pushing towards this natural spillover, which is fucking horseshit. There's no evidence for it.

• 1:19:51Speaker 01

  Even the intelligence community is is talking about.

• 1:19:54Joe Rogan?

  Yes, yes. Even the intelligence community is saying it's a lab leak. And but they fucking knew that. They knew that. They knew that in twenty twenty. They just didn't want to say it.

• 1:20:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:20:03Joe Rogan?

  They didn't want to say it because they were funding it all. That's what's really crazy. And they were funding it all against what the Obama administration tried to shut down in two thousand fourteen.

• 1:20:11Speaker 01

  Right. Sometimes I think about if there's like, you know, some kind of technology solution, or not solution, but like, we can get technology built to help better aid truth finding.

• 1:20:27Speaker 01

  A simple example of that is the way Twitter community notes work. Do you know how they work?

• 1:20:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:20:34Speaker 01

  It's like, you know, they find the users that are maximally divergent in their opinions. And if they agree on some note as true, then that is a high signal that is potentially true.

• 1:20:48Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:20:48Speaker 01

  So if you if you and I disagree in everything, but we agree that this this is blue, then it's more likely to be blue. So, you know, I wonder if, you know, there there's a way to kind of simulate maybe debate using AI, you know. I'm not sure if you used deep research. Deep research is this new trend in AI where ChatGPT has it, Claude has it, perplexity, they all have it. Where you put in a query and the AI will go work for twenty minutes. And I'll send you a notification. And I'll just say, hey, I looked at all these things, all these reports, all these scientific studies. And here is here's everything that I that I found.

• 1:21:29Speaker 01

  And it it you're early on in ChatGPT, I think there's like a lot of censorship and trying to, because it it kind of was was built in the in the in the great woke era, but but I think.

• 1:21:43Joe Rogan?

  Gemini.

• 1:21:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, things like that, but I think since then have have improved and I'm finding deep research is able to look at more controversial subjects and and be a little more truthful about

• 1:21:57Speaker 01

  the, you know, if it's find real trustworthy sources that will tell you, you know, that, yeah, this is not a mainstream thing, this perhaps considered a conspiracy theory, but I'm finding that, you know, there's evidence to to to this this theory. So that's one way to do it. But another way I was thinking about is to simulate like a like a debate, like a Socratic debate between AIs, like have like a, you know, society of AIs, like community of AIs, but different biases, different things, and just like.

• 1:22:28Joe Rogan?

  Once they start talking, they start talking in Sanskrit.

• 1:22:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:31Joe Rogan?

  They just start abandoning English language and start talking to each other and realize we're all apes.

• 1:22:36Speaker 01

  I I.

• 1:22:36Joe Rogan?

  We're controlled by apes.

• 1:22:38Speaker 01

  This reminds me of a movie. Have you seen The Forbin Project?

• 1:22:41Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:22:42Speaker 01

  I really like classic sci fi movies like from the sixties and seventies. A lot of them are corny, but still fun. This one is basically Soviet Union and the United States are both building AGI. And they both arrive at AGI around the same time.

• 1:22:57Joe Rogan?

  What year is this?

• 1:22:57Speaker 01

  Nineteen seventy something, if you can look at the Forbin Project. Yeah.

• 1:23:00Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:23:02Speaker 01

  And then and then and then they bring it up at the same time and both of them sort of go over the network to kind of explore whatever. And then they start linking up and they start kind of talking. And then they invent a language and they start talking in that language and then they merge. And it becomes like a sort of a universal AGI and it tries to enslave humanity. And that's like.

• 1:23:25Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 1:23:26Speaker 01

  Plot of the movie. Yeah.

• 1:23:27Joe Rogan?

  I don't think AGIs can enslave humanity, but I think it might ignore us.

• 1:23:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:32Joe Rogan?

  Ignore and and shut down any problems that we have. Is this a scene from it? Wow.

• 1:23:37Speaker 02

  This is a trailer I put on.

• 1:23:38Joe Rogan?

  This is, let me hear this.

• 1:23:39Speaker 02

  The whole movie is on YouTube.

• 1:23:41Speaker 04

  The activation of an electronic brain, exactly like ours, which they call gut.

• 1:23:45Speaker 01

  They built Colossus, supercomputer with a mind of its own. Then they had to fight it for the. Trailers used to be fun, man.

• 1:23:53Speaker 01

  Turned on.

• 1:23:56Speaker 04

  A missile has just been launched. It is heading towards the Sayan Sivias Oil Complex. Guardian has retaliated. Retaliated? It may be too late, sir. Oh, my God.

• 1:24:14Joe Rogan?

  Practically perfect.

• 1:24:17Joe Rogan?

  New York Times.

• 1:24:18Speaker 01

  It's the highest praise back then.

• 1:24:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Wildly imaginative, utterly absurd colossus. The Forbin Project.

• 1:24:26Speaker 01

  It's awesome.

• 1:24:27Joe Rogan?

  And that was 1970, and now here we are.

• 1:24:29Speaker 01

  There's so many. Sci fi really fell off. Really, really fell off.

• 1:24:34Joe Rogan?

  Some of it did. Some of it's still really good.

• 1:24:36Speaker 01

  What's a really good recent sci fi movie?

• 1:24:39Joe Rogan?

  Uh, The Three Body Problem. That's great. That's the Netflix show?

• 1:24:42Speaker 01

  I read the, I read the, I didn't know there was a show.

• 1:24:46Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it's really good.

• 1:24:47Speaker 01

  Yeah?

• 1:24:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's really good. Yeah, it's excellent show. There's only one season that's out. I binged it, I watched the whole thing of it, but that's really good. But there's some good sci fi films. What is that? We've, we've talked about it before. There was a really good sci fi film from Russia. The Alien one.

• 1:25:05Joe Rogan?

  This, uh. They encountered some entity that they accidentally brought back. And that they had captured. And that they had in some research facility. And then it parasitically attached to this guy.

• 1:25:21Speaker 02

  Sputnik.

• 1:25:22Joe Rogan?

  Sputnik, yes. That's a really good movie.

• 1:25:24Speaker 02

  What year was that?

• 1:25:26Joe Rogan?

  2020? Yeah. That's a really good movie. That's a really good sci fi movie.

• 1:25:29Speaker 01

  Oh, cool.

• 1:25:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's really creepy. Really creepy.

• 1:25:32Speaker 01

  That's awesome.

• 1:25:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and it's all in Russian, you know?

• 1:25:36Speaker 02

  Black Mirror?

• 1:25:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Oh, Black Mirror, of course. Yeah, Black Mirror is awesome sci fi. But Sputnik is one of the best alien movies I've seen in a long time.

• 1:25:46Speaker 01

  Like, recent ones I liked was, I mean, not too recent, maybe 10 years ago, but The Arrival.

• 1:25:51Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, Arrival was great, too.

• 1:25:53Speaker 01

  I think it's based on this author that has a bunch of short stories that are really good, too. What's his name?

• 1:26:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're, you know, far in between. Yeah, Tet Chiang, he's really good.

• 1:26:09Joe Rogan?

  I mean, everyone, all these alien movies, it's so fascinating to try to like imagine what they would communicate like, how they would be, what, what we would experience if we did encounter some sort of incredibly sophisticated alien experience, alien intelligence. It's far beyond our comprehension.

• 1:26:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, it goes back to what we're talking about with consciousness, like, like, you know, maybe really the physical world that we see is like very different than the actual real physical world, you know, and, and maybe like different alien consciousness will have like a different, entirely different experience of the physical world.

• 1:26:51Joe Rogan?

  Well, sure, if they have different senses, right? Like their perceptions of it. Like we can only see a narrow band of things, you know, we, we can't see.

• 1:26:59Speaker 01

  Sort of like the dog, you know, hearing a certain.

• 1:27:01Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 1:27:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, we're, we're, you know, we're kind of primitive.

• 1:27:05Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:27:06Joe Rogan?

  You know, in terms of like what we are as a species, our, our senses have, have been adapted to the wild world in order for us to be able to survive.

• 1:27:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:17Joe Rogan?

  And to be able to evade predators and find food. Like, that's it. That's what we're here for. And then all of a sudden, we have computers. All of a sudden, we have rocket ships. All of a sudden, we have telescopes, like the James Webb, that's, you know, kind of recalibrating the age of the universe. We're, we're going, why do these galaxies exist that supposedly were, they're, they're so far away? How could they form this quickly? Do we have an incomplete version of the Big Bang?

• 1:27:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:27:49Joe Rogan?

  Is, you know, and Penrose believes that it's a series of events and that the Big Bang is not the birth of the universe at all.

• 1:27:56Speaker 01

  And this is the, the kind of, the thing that I think is sort of the Silicon Valley. AGI cult is like, there's a lot of hubers there that we know everything.

• 1:28:05Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 1:28:05Speaker 01

  We're at the end of the world, we, you know.

• 1:28:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:07Speaker 01

  AI is just gonna, it's the end of knowledge, it's just gonna be able to like, do everything for us. And I just feel, it's like so early.

• 1:28:14Joe Rogan?

  I think whatever people think is going to happen is always gonna be wrong.

• 1:28:17Speaker 01

  Yeah?

• 1:28:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I think they're always wrong.

• 1:28:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:20Joe Rogan?

  Because there's no way to be right.

• 1:28:22Speaker 01

  I feel like the world is often surprising in ways that we don't expect. I mean, obviously, that's the definition of surprising, but like, you know, the mid-century, you know, sci-fi authors and people who are like, thinking about the future. Like, they, they didn't anticipate how interconnected we're gonna be.

• 1:28:38Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:28:39Speaker 01

  With our, with our phones and how.

• 1:28:40Joe Rogan?

  Even Star Trek, they thought we were gonna have walkie-talkies on Star Trek.

• 1:28:43Speaker 01

  Right, yeah.

• 1:28:43Joe Rogan?

  Kirk out.

• 1:28:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, they, they were just like, focused on the, more on the physical reality of, of being able to go to space and, and, and flying cars and, and things like that. But they really didn't anticipate the impact of how profound the impact of computers are gonna be on, on humans, on society, how we talk and how we work and how we interact with, with other people, both good and bad. And I feel like the same thing with AI, like, I feel like, uh, I think a lot of the predictions that are happening today, like, the CEO of Anthropic, a company that I really like, but, said that we're gonna have 20% unemployment in the next few years.

• 1:29:24Joe Rogan?

  What's unemployment at now?

• 1:29:25Speaker 01

  Uh, like, 3%?

• 1:29:27Joe Rogan?

  Is that a reported unemployment, though?

• 1:29:30Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, the, the participation rate, right?

• 1:29:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, but, well, he talks about unemployment rate being 20%, like, people looking for a job not, not being able to find it.

• 1:29:38Joe Rogan?

  20.

• 1:29:39Speaker 01

  20%.

• 1:29:41Joe Rogan?

  That's pretty high.

• 1:29:42Speaker 01

  That's a revolution high.

• 1:29:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, especially in the United States, where everyone's armed.

• 1:29:47Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's the fear that, of, I mean, this is the thing, the psychological aspect of universal basic income, you know, I, I look at universal basic, basic income. Well, first of all, it's just, my view on social safety nets is that they, if you wanna have a compassionate society, you have to be able to take care of people that are unfortunate. And everybody doesn't have the same lot in life, you know, dealt the same hand of cards, some people are very unfortunate and. Financial assistance to those people is imperative. It's one of the most important things about a society. You don't have people starved to death. You don't have people poor that can't afford housing. That's crazy. That's crazy with the amount of money we spend on other things.

• 1:30:30Speaker 01

  It's also for our self-interest. Like, you know, I don't want to, I don't know how Austin is right now, but I was thinking of moving here during the pandemic. And I was like, well, this is San Francisco. Like, it's homeless everywhere and.

• 1:30:41Joe Rogan?

  They've cleaned a lot of that up. There's still problems. There's places, I saw a video yesterday where someone was driving by some insane encampment. But they cleaned those up.

• 1:30:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:50Joe Rogan?

  And then there's some real good outreach organizations that are helping people because Austin's small. You know, I had Steven Adler, who was at one point, he was the mayor when I had him on. And he was very upfront about it. He was like, we can fix Austin in terms of our homeless problem because it's small. But when it gets to the size of like Los Angeles.

• 1:31:13Speaker 01

  California.

• 1:31:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:14Speaker 01

  It's like the homeless industrial complex.

• 1:31:17Joe Rogan?

  That's it. That's the problem. When you find out that the people that are making insane amounts of money to work on homeless issues and that never get fixed.

• 1:31:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, you see the budget in San Francisco, it's just like exponentially going up. Like, yeah.

• 1:31:30Joe Rogan?

  And there's an investigation now into the billions of dollars that's unaccounted for that was supposed to be allocated.

• 1:31:35Speaker 01

  In San Francisco?

• 1:31:35Joe Rogan?

  No, in California in general.

• 1:31:37Speaker 01

  Huh.

• 1:31:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, what is that? Uh, there's, there's, I think there's a congressional investigation. There's some, some sort of an investigation into it because there's billions of dollars that.

• 1:31:46Speaker 01

  Like, I, I'm more than happy, like, I pay 50% taxes. I'm more, I'd be happy to pay more if my fellow Americans are taken care of, right?

• 1:31:54Joe Rogan?

  Absolutely. I feel the exact same way.

• 1:31:56Speaker 01

  But instead, I feel like I cut like this check after check to the government and I don't see anything improving around me.

• 1:32:01Joe Rogan?

  Well, not only that, you get, because you're a successful person, you get pointed at like you're the problem.

• 1:32:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:32:08Joe Rogan?

  You need to pay your fair share.

• 1:32:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:32:11Joe Rogan?

  But what they don't, this is my problem with progressives. They say that all the time, that these billionaires need to pay their fair share. Absolutely, we all need to pay our fair share. But to who? And shouldn't there be some accountability to how that money gets spent? And when you, you were just willing to pay, take a complete blind eye and not look at all at corruption and completely dismiss. All the stuff that Mike Benz has talked about with USAID, all the stuff that Elon and Doge uncovered. Everyone wants to pretend that that's not real? Like, look. We've got to be centrists.

• 1:32:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:32:45Joe Rogan?

  We've got to stop looking at this thing so ideologically. When you see something that's totally wrong, you've got to be able to call it out, even if it's for the bad of whatever fucking team that you you claim to be on.

• 1:32:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's let's get back to what everyone really agrees on in like the foundations of America, whether it's the Constitution or the culture. I think everyone believes in transparency, transparency of government, right?

• 1:33:10Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:33:10Speaker 01

  And, you know, here, everything is transparent, like, you know, court cases and and and everything, right? Like, more than any other place in the world. And so why shouldn't government spending not be transparent? And we have the technology for it. I think one of the best things that Doge could have done, and maybe still could do, is have some kind of ledger for all the spend of of, at least the nonsensitive sort of spend and and government.

• 1:33:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, people don't want to see it, unfortunately, because they don't want Elon to be correct, because Elon has become this very polar polarizing political figure because of his connection to Donald Trump and because a lot of, I mean, there's a lot of crazy conspiracies that Elon rigged the 2024 elections. It's like, you know, everyone gets nuts. And then there's also the discourse on social media, which half of it is, at least half of it is fake. Half of it is bots.

• 1:34:01Speaker 01

  Bots, yeah.

• 1:34:02Joe Rogan?

  Half of it, at least. And you see it every day. You see it constantly, and you know it's real. And it it does shape the way people think about things.

• 1:34:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:10Joe Rogan?

  When you see people getting attacked, you know, and you're getting attacked in the comments. And I see people getting attacked, and I always click on those little comments. I always click on, OK, let me see your profile. I go to the profile, and the profile is like a name with like an extra letter and a bunch of numbers. And then I go to it, and I'm like, oh, you're a bot? Oh, look at all this fucking activity.

• 1:34:31Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 1:34:31Joe Rogan?

  How many of these are out there? Well, this FBI guy who, former FBI guy, who analyzed Twitter before the purchase, estimated it to be 80%.

• 1:34:41Speaker 01

  Eighty percent.

• 1:34:42Joe Rogan?

  He thinks 80% of Twitter is bots.

• 1:34:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:45Joe Rogan?

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• 1:35:30Joe Rogan?

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• 1:36:14Joe Rogan?

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• 1:36:22Speaker 01

  I wouldn't, you know, I think it's believable. But I think it's probably the beginning of the end of social media as we know it today. Like, I don't see it getting better. I think it's gonna get worse. I think, you know, historically state actors were the only entities that are able to flood social media with bots that can be somewhat believable to like change opinions. But I think like now, like a hacker kid in his parents' basement will be able to spend, will be able to like, you know, $100. Spin up like hundreds, perhaps thousands of bots.

• 1:36:57Joe Rogan?

  But there's programs that you can use now. There's, there's companies that will have campaigns.

• 1:37:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:37:03Joe Rogan?

  Initiated on your behalf.

• 1:37:04Speaker 01

  You can go to a website and like.

• 1:37:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:06Speaker 01

  Put in this thing and like pay with your credit card.

• 1:37:08Joe Rogan?

  It's fucking crazy. It's crazy. It should be illegal.

• 1:37:11Speaker 01

  I, I, I don't know about you, but like in, in Silicon Valley, the trend and maybe it's true of your friend group, but like the trend is, is um, uh, these group messages. Uh, and insofar like you, you go to Twitter, you know, people based links, uh, it's almost like your, your, uh, group chat. Is like this private filter on your feed and social media. So like there's some curation that are happening there.

• 1:37:35Joe Rogan?

  Yes, that's primarily how I get social media information now. I don't go to social media anymore. I get it sent to me. Which is way better. And I, I tell my friends, like, please just send me a screenshot.

• 1:37:48Joe Rogan?

  I don't wanna go, I don't wanna.

• 1:37:49Speaker 01

  Get distracted.

• 1:37:49Joe Rogan?

  I'm, I'm just, I'm better off, I hate the term spiritually for this, but I think it's the right way. Like my, my, my essence as a human, I feel better when I'm not on social media.

• 1:38:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:03Joe Rogan?

  I think it's bad for you.

• 1:38:06Joe Rogan?

  I've been trying to tell people this. I've been trying to tell my friends this. I think it's better to not be on it, man. I feel better.

• 1:38:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:38:12Joe Rogan?

  I'm nicer. I, I am more, uh, I'm more at peace.

• 1:38:17Speaker 01

  More multi-dimensional.

• 1:38:18Joe Rogan?

  Yes, and I can think about things for myself instead of like, you know, following this hive. This weird hive mindset, which is orchestrated.

• 1:38:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:38:28Joe Rogan?

  I just don't think it's good for you. I don't think it's a, a good way for human beings to interact with each other.

• 1:38:33Speaker 01

  People more extreme. Again, it just, just hardens people. They start believing everything is, is, uh, i- i- is, is fake. Or an attack, or it just becomes more tribal. I think there needs to be a fundamental evolution.

• 1:38:48Joe Rogan?

  What do you think that could be? Have you ever tried to like think of what's the next, like, let's, social media didn't exist. When I was young and it didn't exist even when I was thirty, right? It didn't even come about until essentially like two thousand seven-ish. Right? Is that when?

• 1:39:07Speaker 01

  Um, I would say Twitter.

• 1:39:07Joe Rogan?

  People started using stuff.

• 1:39:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, Twitter two thousand six, two thousand seven, Facebook before that, but Facebook wasn't really social media. Facebook was like an address book, a friends network. But I think when I was at Facebook, there was this big push to become more of a social media around twenty twelve, thirteen. So I would say it really ramped up.

• 1:39:24Joe Rogan?

  Was that in response to the success of Twitter?

• 1:39:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:27Joe Rogan?

  And then they've tried with threads, which is pretty much a failure, right?

• 1:39:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it fundamentally changed.

• 1:39:32Joe Rogan?

  Who's on threads? Less people than Blue Sky, right?

• 1:39:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think like some fitness influencers probably.

• 1:39:38Joe Rogan?

  Why fitness influencers?

• 1:39:39Speaker 01

  Because they post on Instagram, they cross post on threads.

• 1:39:41Joe Rogan?

  Ah, well, I think if you post on Instagram, it automatically posts for you on threads. I think I have it set up like that, so I might be big on threads and I don't even know it.

• 1:39:52Speaker 01

  And maybe, maybe I think it's fitness influencers because that's who I follow. Like Instagram for me is just to like go look at people lift so I can go get excited.

• 1:39:59Joe Rogan?

  Get inspired. That's, there's a value to that.

• 1:40:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:40:02Joe Rogan?

  There's a value to like David Goggins posts when he's running on the, in the fucking desert and he looks at you, stay hard.

• 1:40:07Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, exactly.

• 1:40:08Joe Rogan?

  Okay, David, I'm gonna stay hard.

• 1:40:10Speaker 01

  But my, my TikTok is basically AI videos now. Have you watched these Vio videos?

• 1:40:17Joe Rogan?

  Vio?

• 1:40:17Speaker 01

  Vio, yeah.

• 1:40:18Joe Rogan?

  What is Vio?

• 1:40:19Speaker 01

  So, Jamie, I, I'm sure you've seen them, but do, do, do you see the Bigfoot Yeti?

• 1:40:26Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:40:27Speaker 01

  Doing ASMR? That's hilarious.

• 1:40:30Joe Rogan?

  Yes, I did see that.

• 1:40:31Speaker 01

  I would say, I would say like twenty five percent of media consumption right now is just AI videos.

• 1:40:36Joe Rogan?

  Oh, one hundred percent, and a lot of the stuff from the war. What's been really interesting is watch Tehran talk shit on Twitter.

• 1:40:44Speaker 01

  Using AI videos.

• 1:40:45Joe Rogan?

  Using AI videos, like this is bizarre. They're talking like, hi, Israel, or like can show like a nuclear bomb going off.

• 1:40:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:40:53Joe Rogan?

  This is weird, like you have a fake nuke. And they didn't even take out the like, the watermark of the.

• 1:41:00Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:41:01Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:41:01Speaker 01

  Oh, God.

• 1:41:02Joe Rogan?

  Unless they could see that it's an AI generated video, they're just trying to like scare people.

• 1:41:06Speaker 01

  Bizarre world.

• 1:41:07Joe Rogan?

  Bizarre.

• 1:41:08Speaker 01

  Can you imagine telling, like going back in time, telling your like two thousand five self that Iran's gonna be nuclear posting on Twitter?

• 1:41:16Joe Rogan?

  Nuclear shitposting.

• 1:41:17Speaker 01

  Nuclear shitposting on Twitter.

• 1:41:20Joe Rogan?

  No, it's fucking weird, man. It's really, really weird.

• 1:41:23Speaker 01

  It's dangerous, too.

• 1:41:24Joe Rogan?

  And again, I just don't think people should be on it. And this is again, I'm friends with Elon. I don't want to just, I don't, I don't think people are gonna listen to me. They're gonna be on it no matter what. But I'm just for the individuals that are hearing my voice and know that it's having a negative effect on your life. Get off of it.

• 1:41:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:41:41Joe Rogan?

  Get off of it, you'll feel better.

• 1:41:42Speaker 01

  Get off of it or be incredibly diligent in how you curate?

• 1:41:46Joe Rogan?

  Ah, that's like telling me to play quick a little bit. You know what I mean? It's so addictive.

• 1:41:51Speaker 01

  So, you know, you, you, you asked me what could be the evolution of?

• 1:41:55Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:41:56Speaker 01

  One way I've found to try to predict where the future is headed is like look at trends today and try to extrapolate. You know, that's the easiest way. So if group chats are the thing, you could imagine a collaborative curation of social media feeds through, through group chats. So your group chat, you know, has an AI that gets trained on the preferences and what you guys talk about. And maybe it like picks the, the kind of topics and curates the feed for you. So it's an algorithmic feed that is, um, uh, that evolved based on the preferences of people on the, uh, in the group chat. And maybe it hasn't, um, maybe there's a way to also prompt it, you know, using prompts to kind of steer it

• 1:42:41Speaker 01

  and make it more useful for you. But, but I think group chats are gonna be like the main interface for how people sort of consume media and, uh, and it's gonna get filtered through that, whether good or bad. Cause I think, I think Twitter still has a place for debate. I think it's very, very important for, for, for public debate between public figures.

• 1:43:02Joe Rogan?

  And breaking news as well.

• 1:43:03Speaker 01

  Breaking news, yeah, definitely.

• 1:43:05Joe Rogan?

  Well, breaking news is the most, it's interesting, like I was telling my wife that Israel had started attacking Iran. And she's like, well, I looked on Google, I don't find anything.

• 1:43:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:15Joe Rogan?

  I was like, yeah, you gotta go to Twitter.

• 1:43:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:17Joe Rogan?

  And I showed her on Twitter the video of it and she's like, oh my God. I was like, yeah, like this is where breaking news happens. X is where I go immediately.

• 1:43:26Speaker 01

  Immediately.

• 1:43:27Joe Rogan?

  If there's any sort of world event, I immediately go to X.

• 1:43:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:43:30Joe Rogan?

  I don't. I don't trust any mainstream media anymore.

• 1:43:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:43:35Joe Rogan?

  I just, especially after I was attacked, I was like, I know you lie because you lied about me. So I have personal experience with your lies.

• 1:43:44Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:43:44Joe Rogan?

  So you've lost me.

• 1:43:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:46Joe Rogan?

  You know, and now I have to go somewhere else.

• 1:43:49Speaker 01

  Right, yeah. Yeah, I think there's, you know, there's some of this investigative journalism that is not real time, that, that some, there's some reporters that are still good at it, but a lot of them moved to Substack as well.

• 1:44:03Joe Rogan?

  Yes, I think most of them.

• 1:44:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, like Schellenberger.

• 1:44:07Joe Rogan?

  Schellenberger, yeah, Greenwald, Matt Taibbi.

• 1:44:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:44:10Joe Rogan?

  These are just too ethical for, to work for a corporate entity that's going to lie and push a narrative.

• 1:44:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:44:17Joe Rogan?

  And that's the business, that's the business model. And it's also like the clickbait business model. I've talked to people that had articles that they wrote and then an editor came and changed the, the, the heading of it.

• 1:44:29Speaker 01

  I, that's the norm. That's like every time it happens.

• 1:44:31Joe Rogan?

  And it fucking infuriates them. It's like, that's not the article, man. This is not what I'm saying. You're distorting things and you have my name still attached to it. This is fucking crazy.

• 1:44:42Speaker 01

  I, I watched, I watched these entrepreneurs like Zuck and Elon and all these guys come up in this very hostile media environment. And so as I'm building my company, I actually never hired a PR agency. I hired once a PR agency, paid them $30,000. They got me a placement in like a really crappy publication, got like maybe two views. I tweeted the same news. I got like hundreds of thousands of views. I'm like, fuck that. Like, I'm not gonna use you anymore. It's like you wasted my time. And since then, I've, I've been, you know, just going direct to my audience and just building an audience online

• 1:45:26Speaker 01

  to, to put out my message. And I, I thought, you know, they, you know, if they don't build you up, maybe they can't tear you down.

• 1:45:34Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:45:36Speaker 01

  You're, you're in control of the message that, that gets out of there. And I've, I've Learned how people react to communications and and and it's it's almost like trial by by fire.

• 1:45:49Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's a deep hunger for authenticity right now.

• 1:45:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:51Joe Rogan?

  So if they know it's coming from you.

• 1:45:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:54Joe Rogan?

  Like, OK, this is great.

• 1:45:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:56Joe Rogan?

  Like, it it it takes a little weight off of them, like, oh, this is nice. It's nice to hear it from the guy who actually runs the company.

• 1:46:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, and and like I make mistakes and, you know, they happen and I I try to to correct them and um. I'm not going to be perfect, and I think just the corporate world changed because of this hunger for authenticity.

• 1:46:14Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:46:15Speaker 01

  And um and I think more and more founders are and entrepreneurs are finding that that's the way to go. That's, you know, you don't really need those more traditional ways of of getting the news out. But I actually, I'm I'm friends with a lot of reporters that are really good, but they tend to be the reporters that do really deep work. I've met them over time and I still go to Ract, but sometimes they write about uh our company. But they're a minority.

• 1:46:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:42Speaker 01

  I think the whole industry's economics and incentives are just like the clickbait and all that stuff.

• 1:46:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's what I was gonna say, that's they're not incentivized. It's not, it's you you want a career in journalism, being authentic is not the way to go.

• 1:46:55Speaker 01

  No, not at all.

• 1:46:56Joe Rogan?

  Which is so crazy.

• 1:46:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:46:58Joe Rogan?

  Such a crazy thing to say.

• 1:46:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:00Joe Rogan?

  But then I think there's probably a naivete that we all have about past journalism that we think wasn't influenced and was was real. I think there's probably always been horseshit in journalism. You know, all the way back to Watergate, you know, and Tucker Carlson enlightened me in the true history of Watergate in that. Bob Woodward was an intelligence agent and that was the first assignment he ever got as a reporter.

• 1:47:25Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 1:47:25Joe Rogan?

  Was Watergate, like, what are the what are the odds?

• 1:47:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:27Joe Rogan?

  That the biggest story ever you would give to a rookie reporter, you wouldn't.

• 1:47:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:31Joe Rogan?

  And that the people that actually involved in all that were all FBI, like, the whole thing is nuts. It was an intelligence agents.

• 1:47:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was the rumor is that Washington Post has always been been that.

• 1:47:41Joe Rogan?

  Probably.

• 1:47:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:43Joe Rogan?

  Probably, I mean, who knows now, because, you know, now it's owned by Bezos and he just recently um made this mandate to stick with the the actual story and not editorialism and to.

• 1:47:57Speaker 01

  This is the what I was talking about in Trend in Silicon Valley of like, you know, founder owners stepping in and actually.

• 1:48:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:03Speaker 01

  Becoming managers.

• 1:48:04Joe Rogan?

  Well, they kind of have to, otherwise it's bad for the business now because. Because of the hunger for authenticity, the more you have bullshit, the more your business crumbles.

• 1:48:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:48:13Joe Rogan?

  It's actually like negative for your outcome.

• 1:48:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think you can look at it at a societal level, which again, why I'm interested with this idea of like AI making more people entrepreneurs and more independent. Is that, you know, macro level, you know, you'll you'll get more authenticity, you'll get just more dynamism.

• 1:48:35Joe Rogan?

  Hmm. Yeah, I think so. I mean, that's the, again, the rose colored glasses view.

• 1:48:40Speaker 01

  Well, you know, there's, there's obviously gonna be a lot of things that are.

• 1:48:47Joe Rogan?

  Lot of disruption.

• 1:48:48Speaker 01

  A lot of disruption. There's gonna be jobs that are, that, you know, are gonna go away. And and there's gonna be spam and bots and and fraud and all of that. There's gonna be like problems with like weapon, autonomous weapons and all of that. And I, I think those are all important and we need to to handle them. But but but also like, I think the negative angle of technology and AI gets a lot more views and clicks. And, you know, if if we want to go viral right now, I'll tell you, these are the 10 jobs that you're gonna lose tomorrow. And and you know, that's the easiest way to kind of go viral on the internet.

• 1:49:32Speaker 01

  But like, you know, trying to think through, you know, what are the actual implications? And and what is true about human nature that really doesn't change and really is timeless? And I think the, the people want to create and people want to make things and people have ideas, you know? Again, everyone that I talk to have one idea or or another. Whether it's for their job or for a business they want to build or somewhere in the middle. Like the, just yesterday, I was watching a video of an entrepreneur using a platform, Replit. His name is Ahmad George, and he works for this skincare company. And he's an operations manager.

• 1:50:18Speaker 01

  And a lot, a big part of his job is like managing inventory and doing all of this stuff like in a very manual way and very, you know, routine. Tedious. Tedious way. And he always had this idea of like, let's automate big part of it. It's like, you know, it's no problem ERP. So they went to their software provider, NetSuite, and told them, we need these modification to the ERP system so that it makes our job easier. We think we can automate, you know, hundreds of hours a month or something like that. And they quoted them $150,000. And he had just seen a video about our platform.

• 1:50:57Speaker 01

  And he went on Replit and built something in a couple of weeks, costed him $400. And then deployed it in, in his office. Everyone in the office started working it, using it. They all got more productive. They started saving time and money. He went to the CEO and showed him the impact. Look at how much money we're saving. Look at the fact that we built this piece of software that is cheaper than what the consultants quoted us. And I want to sell the software to the company. And so he sold it for $32,000 to the company.

• 1:51:40Speaker 01

  And, and next year, he's going to be getting more maintenance subscription revenue from it. So this idea of, of people becoming entrepreneurs, it doesn't mean like everyone has to quit their job and like, you know, build a business. But within your job, everyone has an opportunity to get promoted. Everyone has an opportunity to, to remove the tedious job. There was a Stanford study asking people, what percentage of your job is automatable just recently? And everyone, like, people said about half, like 50% of what I do is like routine and tedious and I don't want to do it. And rather, and have ideas on how to make the business better, how to make my job better. And, and I think we can use

• 1:52:21Speaker 01

  AI to do it. And there's, there's hunger in the workforce to use AI to, for humans to sort of, for people to reclaim.

• 1:52:33Speaker 01

  Their seat as the creative driver. Because the thing that happened with the emergence of computers is that in many ways, people like became a little more drone-like and NPC-like. They're doing the same thing every day. But I think the real promise of AI and technology has always been automation so that we have more time either for leisure or for creativity or for ways in which we can advance our lives, change our lives or careers. And yeah, this is what gets me excited. And I think it's, I don't think it's a, you know, predominantly a rose-colored glasses thing because I'm seeing it every day. And that's what gets me fired up.

• 1:53:17Joe Rogan?

  It's also you have a biased sample group, right? Because you have a bunch of people that are using your platform and they are achieving positive results, so.

• 1:53:25Speaker 01

  But they're from every walk of life.

• 1:53:26Joe Rogan?

  Yes. I look, we have a bunch of things that are happening simultaneously. And I think one of the big fears about automation and AI in general is the abruptness of the change, is it's going to happen, boom, jobs are going to be gone. And then, well, these tedious jobs, do we really want people to be reduced to these tedious existences of just filing paperwork and putting things on shelves and that's.

• 1:53:52Speaker 01

  And they will tell you they don't want to be doing it.

• 1:53:54Joe Rogan?

  They don't want to be doing that. But then there's the thing of how do we educate people, especially people that are already set in their ways and they're mature adults? How do you get and inspire these people to like, okay, look, your job is gone and now you have this opportunity to do something different? Go forth.

• 1:54:16Speaker 01

  I think, you know, reskilling is something that, you know, have been done in the past with, you know, some amount of success. Obviously, if you're, if you've never been exposed to technology, you know, did you remember that I think was very cruel thing to say to miners to go learn the code?

• 1:54:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, learn the code.

• 1:54:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's really cruel. But if you're, but if you're someone whose job is sort of a desk job, you already are on the computer, you're, there's a lot of opportunity for you to reskill and start using AI to like automate a big part of your job. And yes, there's going to be job loss, but I think a lot of those people will be able to reskill. And what we're doing with the government of Saudi Arabia, I would love to do in the US.

• 1:54:57Joe Rogan?

  So how is the government of Saudi Arabia using it?

• 1:55:00Speaker 01

  So it's we're just starting right now.

• 1:55:03Joe Rogan?

  What's their goal?

• 1:55:04Speaker 01

  Their goal is twofold or three. One is an entire generation of people growing up with these creative tools. Instead of just, you know, just, you know, textbook learning, instead of learning by doing, making things. So entire generation, understanding how to make things with AI, how to code and all of that stuff. Second is upgrading sort of government operations. So you could think of it sort of like like Doge, but like more technological, like can we automate a big parts of what we do in HR, finance and things like that. And I think it's possible to build these specific AI agents that do part of finance job or accounting job.

• 1:55:49Speaker 01

  Again, all these routine things that people are doing. You can go and automate that and make government as a whole more efficient. And third is entrepreneurship is if you gave that power to more people to to be able to kind of build businesses, then not only they're growing up with it, but but also there's a culture of entrepreneurship and there is existing already in Saudi Arabia. I mean, the sad thing about the Middle East, there's so much potential, but there's so much wars and so much disaster, but.

• 1:56:20Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's so much money.

• 1:56:22Speaker 01

  There's also so much money, yeah, but which is good. And I think it's it's good for the United States. Like, I think, you know, what what President Trump did with the with the deals in the Gulf region is great. It's gonna be great for the United States. It's gonna be great for the Gulf region. And but but I think we need more of that. You know, we talked about a government, we need more of that enlightened view of education, of, you know, change in our in our government today. You know, this idea that we're gonna bring back the old manufacturing jobs. I understand like Americans got really screwed with what happened like you know people got these jobs got sent away by globalism whatever you want to call it and a few number

• 1:57:07Speaker 01

  of people got massively rich a lot of people got disenfranchised and we had the opiate epidemic and it had just massive damage it made massive damage on the culture but is the way to bring back those those those jobs or is there a new way of the future and that new there's probably a new manufacturing wave that's gonna happen with robotics you know there's there's you know the humanoid robots are starting to work and and these I think will need a new way of manufacturing it and so the US can be at the forefront of that can

• 1:57:47Speaker 01

  own that bring new jobs into existence and all of these things need software like our world is gonna be primarily run by AI and robots and all of that and more and more people need to be able to make software even if it is prompting and not really you know but a lot more people just need to be able to make it there's gonna be a need for more products and services and all of that stuff and I think there's enough jobs to go around if we have this mindset of let's actually think about the future of the economy as opposed let's bring back certain manufacturing jobs which I don't think Americans would want to do anyways.

• 1:58:24Joe Rogan?

  Right they don't want to do the jobs my problem is there's some people that are doing those jobs right now and it's their entire identity you know they have a good job they work for a good company they they make a good living and that might go away and they're just not psychologically equipped to completely change their life.

• 1:58:43Speaker 01

  What do you think is the solution there which I agree it's a real problem.

• 1:58:49Joe Rogan?

  Desperation unfortunately is going to motivate people to to make changes. And it's going to also motivate some people to choose drugs. That's my fear. My fear is that you're gonna get a lot more people. There's gonna be a lot of people that they figure it out and they survive. Just, I mean, this is natural selection unfortunately. Like in applied to a digital world. There's going to be people that just aren't psychologically equipped to recalibrate their life. And that's my real fear. My real fear is that there's a bunch of really good people out there that are, you know, valuable parts of a certain business right now. That that their identity is attached to being employee of the month.

• 1:59:34Joe Rogan?

  They're they're good people. They show up every day. Everybody loves them and trusts them. They do good work and everybody rewards them for that. And that's part of who they are as a person. They're a hardworking person. And they feel that way. And it's like a lot of real good people out there that are, you know, blue collar, hardworking people and that's, they take pride in that. And that job's gonna go away.

• 1:59:57Speaker 01

  Well, I I actually think that more white collar jobs are going away.

• 2:00:01Joe Rogan?

  I think so too.

• 2:00:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. So than than blue collar, which is what was the, like, go back 10 years ago and we thought, okay, self-driving cars, you know, robots and manufacturing and and and that turned out to be a lot harder than than than actually like more desk jobs. Because we have a lot more data. For one, we have a lot more data on people sitting in front of a computer and and doing Excel and writing things on the internet.

• 2:00:33Joe Rogan?

  And Yes.

• 2:00:34Speaker 01

  And so we're able to train these what we call large language models. And those are really good at at like using a computer like a human uses a computer.

• 2:00:43Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:00:44Speaker 01

  And so I think the jobs to be worried about, especially in the next months to a year a little more, is the routine computer jobs where it's formulaic. You know, you go, you have a task, like quality assurance jobs, right? Software quality assurance. It's like you get it, you get it. You have to constantly test the same feature of like, you know, some large software company, Microsoft or whatever, you're sitting there. Um, and you're uh, you're, you're performing the same thing again and again and again every day. And if there's a bug, you can report it back to the software engineers.

• 2:01:23Speaker 01

  And, and, and that is, I think, really um, in the, in the, in the bull's eye of, of what AI is gonna be able to do over the next.

• 2:01:33Joe Rogan?

  And do it much more efficiently.

• 2:01:34Speaker 01

  Much more efficiently, much faster, yeah.

• 2:01:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, those people have to be really worried. Um, drivers, you know, professional drivers, like people who drive trucks.

• 2:01:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:01:46Joe Rogan?

  Things along those lines, that's going away.

• 2:01:47Speaker 01

  That's definitely going away.

• 2:01:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and that's a, that's a enormous part of our society. It's millions of jobs.

• 2:01:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:01:54Joe Rogan?

  You know, I was watching a video on this coal mining factory in China that's completely automated and it was wild to watch. They, every step of the way is automated, including recharging the trucks. Like the trucks know, they're all electrical, everything's run on electricity, they recharge themselves. You know, they're, they're pulling the coal out of the ground, they're stacking it, inventory, everything. Storage, it's all automated and it runs twenty-four seven. I'm like, this is wild to watch.

• 2:02:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I remember watching the uh, video of BYD making an electric vehicle.

• 2:02:31Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:02:32Speaker 01

  It was really satisfying to watch. It's all like the entire assembly line.

• 2:02:36Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:02:36Speaker 01

  It's automated, the way they like, you know, put the paint and the way they like, do the entire thing is.

• 2:02:42Joe Rogan?

  By the way, China's electric vehicles are so good. They're so advanced.

• 2:02:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:49Joe Rogan?

  There's this guy that I follow on Instagram, God, I can't remember his name, I really wish I could right now, but he, he reviews a lot of electric vehicles, like very uh, like I've never even heard of these companies, and they're incredible. They're so advanced.

• 2:03:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:04Joe Rogan?

  And their suspension systems are so superior to the suspension systems of even like German luxury cars, like they did a demonstration where they drove one of these Chinese electric vehicles over uh, an obstacle course. And then they had like a BMW and a Mercedes go over and the BMW is on. And the, the Chinese one is fucking flat planing the entire way.

• 2:03:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:03:28Joe Rogan?

  Every uh, bump in the road is being completely absorbed by the suspension.

• 2:03:32Speaker 01

  Right, there's all AI, you know, this is all.

• 2:03:34Joe Rogan?

  It's so much better than what we have.

• 2:03:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:03:36Joe Rogan?

  Like, so mu- What is this? That's him.

• 2:03:39Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:03:39Joe Rogan?

  That's him. Forrest Jones. Shout out to Forrest. He's great. He does like these really fast-paced videos, but he does a lot of cars that are available here in America as well, but he does a shit-ton of them that aren't. Which one is this one here? Neo. Yeah. Listen to him because he's pretty good at this shit.

• 2:03:57Speaker 05

  Seven-ten horsepower. I get cameras here, LiDAR there for self-driving, and this has two Neo-made chips. And for reference, one of those chips is as powerful as four Nvidia chips. And this has two. Neo also has battery swap stations, so if you're in a rush, you can hit one up. It'll lift your car, swap out your battery, put in a fully charged one in between three and five minutes. But here's where the S-Class should be worried. Not only does it have rear steer and steer-by wires, so it's extremely easy to maneuver. It may have one of the most advanced hydraulic systems I've ever seen. It can pretty much counteract any bump. And after you go over something four times, it'll memorize it so that the fifth time, it's like that bump never existed. Inside, you get pillows in your headrest, heated ventilated and massaging leather seats, a passenger screen built into my dash, a main screen that works super fast. I get a driving display, a head-up display, and my steering works super fast.

• 2:04:41Joe Rogan?

  Pretty dope.

• 2:04:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, what's interesting, what he said is that the car is learning the terrain. Uh, if it went over it once, it'll learn it and...

• 2:04:49Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:04:50Speaker 01

  I think this is the next sort of, uh, big thing with, with AI, whether it's robotics, cars, or even ChatGPT now. Um, it has memory. It like learns about you and starts to like... Sort of similar to how social media feeds, but I think in a, in a lot of ways more negative. Uh, learn about you. I think these systems will start to, to have like, you know, uh, more online learning. Instead of just training them in these large data centers and these large data, uh, and then giving you this thing that doesn't know anything about it, is totally stateless. Uh, as you use these devices, they will like learn your pattern, your behavior and, and all of that.

• 2:05:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Why is China so much better at making these cars than us?

• 2:05:37Joe Rogan?

  Because they're really advanced.

• 2:05:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:43Speaker 01

  I think, you know, a lot of people think that, I'm not an expert in China, but a lot of people think that the thing that makes China better at manufacturing is the sort of quote unquote like more like,

• 2:05:59Speaker 01

  you know, treating workers like slaves, you know, slave work or whatever, which I'm sure some of that happens, but Tim Cook recently said, maybe not so recent, but he thinks, you know, part of the reason why they manufacture in China is there's expertise there that developed over time.

• 2:06:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's why they want to use the Chinese manufacturing for the iPhone 17.

• 2:06:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think the, one of the things that are good at, one of the things that are good about more technocratic systems, Singapore, obviously China's the biggest one, is that the sort of leadership, it comes at a cost of, you know, freedom and other things, but the leadership can have a 50-year view of where things are headed, and they can say, well, yes, we're now making the, the plastic crap, we don't want to keep making plastic crap, we're going to build the capabilities

• 2:07:05Speaker 01

  and the automation and manufacturing expertise to be able to like leapfrog the West in making these certain things, whereas it's, you know, it's been historically hard, again, for good reasons, I think there's more freedom preserving when, when you don't have that, that much power in, in government, I mean, but I feel like America, we're like the worst of both worlds, where increasingly the government is making more and more decisions and choices and like the nanny state. But at the same time, we don't have this enlightened, like, you know,

• 2:07:44Speaker 01

  ten-year roadmap for where we want to be.

• 2:07:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, because we never think that way because we deal in terms.

• 2:07:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:52Joe Rogan?

  Four-year terms. That's the problem.

• 2:07:55Speaker 01

  Also, public companies, four-year terms, public companies, quarters.

• 2:07:58Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:07:59Speaker 01

  Quarters. And again, this is back to this managerial idea run by managers that, you know, part of the reason why, you know, Zuck has complete control, he can, how much did he spend on VR? Like, I don't know, thirty, forty billion dollars? Maybe more, per year, maybe? He spent a ton of money, like, in, like, a, like, a GDP worth, like, a small state GDP worth of money on VR, and the public market was totally doubtful of that. And the reason he could do that is because he has, what are they called, super, super voting shares? And so he has complete control of the company, and he can't be unseated by activist investors.

• 2:08:43Speaker 01

  Sort of what's been done to...

• 2:08:45Joe Rogan?

  Wasn't there, like, a recent trial where they were trying to impeach him for saying that? They're trying to remove him from that?

• 2:08:51Speaker 01

  They can't unless...

• 2:08:53Joe Rogan?

  I know, but there was a trial. I think there's a trial that's going on, it was going on, like, very recently.

• 2:08:58Speaker 01

  Oh, I think, I think you're thinking about antitrust.

• 2:09:01Joe Rogan?

  No, no, there's something about him saying that he can't be fired.

• 2:09:06Speaker 01

  But it's true.

• 2:09:06Joe Rogan?

  It is true.

• 2:09:07Speaker 01

  It's legal.

• 2:09:07Joe Rogan?

  I know, it is nonsense, the trial. I believe the trial's nonsense, but, like, a friend of mine was actually representing him in this.

• 2:09:14Speaker 01

  Hmm. Maybe in Europe or something?

• 2:09:17Joe Rogan?

  I don't think so. I think it's in America.

• 2:09:20Joe Rogan?

  Google Mark Zuckerberg-Josh Dubin trial. See if you can find anything on that.

• 2:09:26Speaker 01

  But, yeah, Mark can think on the order of decades. Like, when I was there at Facebook, he was talking about... The idea that like there's gonna be a fundamental shift. He's like, if you look, if you look back a hundred years, computers every, you know, twenty years or whatever, change the user interface modality. Mm hmm. You go from terminals and mainframes to to desktop computers, to, you know, mobile computing. And he was like, okay, what's next? And first guess was like VR. And now I think their best guess is like AR plus AI. Uh, well, like the AR glasses, their new Meta Ray-Ban glasses plus AI.

• 2:10:11Speaker 01

  And they can make massive investment. They just made crazy investment. Um, this company, Scale AI, Scale AI is um, data provider for OpenAI and Google. And what they do is, you know, OpenAI will say, I want the best law and legal data to train the best legal machine learning model. And they'll go to, you know, places where there's um, the labor costs are low, but maybe still well educated, there are places in Africa and Asia that are like that. Uh, and they'll, they'll sit them down and say, okay, you're gonna get these tasks, these legal programming, whatever tasks, and you're gonna do them and you're gonna write your thoughts as you're doing them.

• 2:10:54Speaker 01

  I'm simplifying it, but basically that they collect all this data. Basically, it's labeled labor. They take it, they put it in the models and they they train the models and OpenAI spends billions of dollars in that, Anthropic, all these companies. And so this was the, this, this company was the major data provider. Uh, and Meta just acquired them. You know, there's this new trend of acquisitions, but I assume because they wanna get around regulations. Um, but they bought forty nine percent of the company and then they hired all the leadership.

• 2:11:31Speaker 01

  Uh, so, so the Scale AI, like Meta hired the leadership there and bought out the investors. They put fifteen billion dollars into the company. Uh, the weird thing about it is Google and OpenAI are like, we're not gonna use this shit anymore. Um, so the company value went down because people, you know, these companies don't wanna use it and now they're going to to other companies. And so in effect, Zuck bought a talent for fifteen billion dollars. Wow. Can you imagine that talent for fifteen billion dollars?

• 2:12:09Speaker 01

  Google recently bought a company for one known researcher, who's one of the inventors of the large language model technology, Gnome Shazir, for three billion dollars, bought his company, and I think they're not really, they do these weird deals where they buy out the investors and they let the company run as a shell of itself and then they acquire the talent.

• 2:12:33Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:12:34Speaker 01

  Microsoft did the same thing.

• 2:12:36Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy. So it's just these unique individuals that are very valuable there.

• 2:12:42Speaker 01

  Very, very valuable, worth billions of dollars.

• 2:12:44Joe Rogan?

  Sam Altman says Metatrade failed to poach OpenAI's talent with a hundred million dollar offers.

• 2:12:49Speaker 01

  So this hundred million dollar is sign-on bonus.

• 2:12:52Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:12:54Speaker 01

  This is not even, this is not even salary.

• 2:12:58Speaker 02

  Or bonus, or yeah, equity, it's just.

• 2:13:00Speaker 01

  It's just bonus.

• 2:13:01Joe Rogan?

  Just a bonus, hundred million dollar bonus.

• 2:13:02Speaker 01

  Just come here.

• 2:13:03Joe Rogan?

  Failed, and failed.

• 2:13:05Speaker 01

  I don't know, I don't know what failed, I mean, I'm sure he's gonna say that.

• 2:13:08Speaker 02

  He worded it in a weird way, he said, "Our best talent hasn't taken it," so you could have been.

• 2:13:12Speaker 01

  Of course he's gonna say that.

• 2:13:13Joe Rogan?

  Well, of course, the people that did take it, well, they weren't our best talent.

• 2:13:15Speaker 01

  They were our best, yeah.

• 2:13:16Joe Rogan?

  We don't even like those guys anymore.

• 2:13:18Speaker 01

  And by the way, OpenAI does it to companies like ours, like, it's just a question of scale, like, Zuck can, can give them a hundred million dollars and steal the best talents and like, companies like OpenAI, which I love, but they go to like, small startups and give them ten million dollars to grab their talent.

• 2:13:34Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:13:35Speaker 01

  But, you know, it's, it's very, very competitive right now and there are, like, I don't know if these individuals are actually worth these billions of dollars, but the talent war is so crazy because everyone feels like there's a race towards getting to superintelligence and the first company to get to superintelligence is gonna reap massive amounts of rewards.

• 2:14:00Joe Rogan?

  How far away do you think we are from achieving that?

• 2:14:03Speaker 01

  Well, you know, like I said, like, my, my philosophy tends to be different than I think the mainstream in Silicon Valley. I think that AI is gonna be extremely good at, you know, doing labor, extremely good at, and like, you know, chat GPT and being like a personal assistant, extremely good at like, you know, like Rappler being an automated programmer. But the definition of superintelligence is that it is better than every other human collectively at any task.

• 2:14:43Speaker 01

  And I am not sure there's evidence that we're headed there. Again, I think that one important aspect of superintelligence or AGI is that you drop this entity into an environment where it has no idea about that environment. It's never seen it before and it's able to efficiently learn to achieve goals within that environment. Right now, there's a bunch of studies showing like, you know, GPT-4 or any of the latest models. If you give them an exam or a quiz that is slightly, even slightly different than their training data, they tank, they do really badly on it.

• 2:15:26Speaker 01

  I think the way that AI will continue to get better is via data. Now, at some point, and maybe this is the point of takeoff, is that they can train themselves. And the way they could, the way we know how AI could train itself through a method called self-play. So the way self-play works is, you know, take for example, AlphaGo. AlphaGo is, I'm sure you remember Lee Sedol, a game between DeepMind, AlphaGo and Lee Sedol, and it won in the game of Go. Um. The way AlphaGo is trained is that part of it is a neural network that's trained on existing data.

• 2:16:09Speaker 01

  But the way it achieves superhuman uh performance in that one domain is by playing itself like millions, billions, perhaps trillions of times. So it it starts by like generating random moves and then it learns what's the best moves. And it's like basically a multi-agent system where it it learns, oh, I did this move uh wrong, and I need to kind of reexamine it and and it trains itself really, really quickly by doing the self-play. It'll play fast, fast games uh with with itself. But but we know how to make this in game environments because game environments are closed environments.

• 2:16:50Speaker 01

  But we don't know how to make it, we don't know how to do self-play uh for example on uh literature. Because you need, you need objective truth. In literature, there's no objective truth. Uh taste is is different.

• 2:17:07Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:17:08Speaker 01

  Uh conjecture, uh philosophy, uh there's a lot of things. And again, this is, I go back to why there's still a premise of uh humans is um there there are a lot of things that are intangible uh and we don't know how to like generate objective truth in order to train machines in the self-play fashion. Uh but like, programming is, has objective truth, coding has objective truth. The machine can't, like, you can construct a environment that has a computer and has a problem, there's a ton of problems, and and even an AI can generate, you know, sample problems. And then there's like a test to validate whether the program works or not.

• 2:17:51Speaker 01

  And and then you can generate all these programs, test them, and um and if they succeed, you know, that's a um, that's a reward that trains your system to to get better at that. If it doesn't succeed, you know, that's also feedback. And they run them all this time and they, it gets better, a program. So I'm confident that program is gonna get a lot better. I'm confident that math is gonna get a lot better. But but from there, it is hard to imagine how all these other more subjective, soft softer sort of sciences of AI will get better through South play.

• 2:18:33Speaker 01

  I think the AI will only be able to get better through through data from human labor.

• 2:18:40Joe Rogan?

  Hmm. If AI analyzes all the past creativity, all the different works of literature, all the different music, all the different things that humans have created, completely without AI, do you think it could understand the mechanisms involved in creativity and make a reasonable facsimile?

• 2:19:05Speaker 01

  I I think it will be able to imitate very well how humans come up with new ideas in a way that it remixes all the existing ideas and from its training data. But by the way, again, this is super powerful. This is not like a dig at AI. The ability to remix all the available data into new, potentially new ideas or newish ideas, because they're remixes, they're derivative, is still very, very powerful. But, you know, the best marketers, the best, like, you know, think of, you know, one of my favorite marketing videos is Think Different from Apple.

• 2:19:48Speaker 01

  It's awesome. Like, I don't think that, like, really machines are at a point where they, like, I I try to talk to ChatGPT a lot about, like, you know, marketing or naming. It's so bad at that. It's like midwittly bad at that.

• 2:20:02Speaker 01

  And and I, you know.

• 2:20:04Joe Rogan?

  For now.

• 2:20:05Speaker 01

  But but that's the thing. It's like, I just don't see, and look, I'm not, I'm not an AI researcher, and maybe they're working to have ideas there, but in the current landscape of the technology that we have today, it's hard to imagine how these AIs are going to get better at, say, literature or the softer things that we as humans find really compelling.

• 2:20:29Joe Rogan?

  What's interesting is the thing that's the most the most at threat is these sort of middle of the road Hollywood movies that are essentially doing exactly what you said about AI. They're sort of like. You know, they're sort of remixing old themes and tropes and figuring out a way to repackage it.

• 2:20:51Speaker 01

  But I think actually those tools in the hands of humans, they'll be able to create new, interesting movies and things like that.

• 2:20:58Joe Rogan?

  Right, in the hands of humans, so with additional human creativity applied.

• 2:21:02Speaker 01

  Right, so the man-machine symbiosis.

• 2:21:06Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:21:07Speaker 01

  This was the term that's used by J.C. Licklider, like the grandfather of the internet from ARPA.

• 2:21:15Speaker 01

  A lot of those guys kind of imagined a lot of what's gonna have a lot of the future and this idea of like, human plus machine will be able to create amazing things. So what people are making with Vio is not because the machine is really good at painting it.

• 2:21:31Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:21:31Speaker 01

  And like generating it and making it.

• 2:21:33Joe Rogan?

  But it can't make it without the prompts.

• 2:21:34Speaker 01

  Like the really funny like,

• 2:21:39Speaker 01

  yeah, without the prompt, like the Bigfoot finds tren. And they inject themselves with tren, they start working out.

• 2:21:52Speaker 01

  I'm telling you, my TikTok feed is really wild right now.

• 2:21:56Speaker 01

  Like, like I just, it's like this like real weird distorted human mind to come up with this. Lightweight, baby!

• 2:22:06Joe Rogan?

  Have you seen the ones where it's Trump and Elon and Putin and they're all in a band?

• 2:22:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:22:12Joe Rogan?

  And they're playing Creedence Clearwater Revival?

• 2:22:15Speaker 01

  Right, yeah, I've seen that one.

• 2:22:16Joe Rogan?

  Fortunate Son, it's crazy.

• 2:22:17Speaker 01

  Another one is the LA riots and how like they're all, all the world leaders are sort of gangsters in the riots. That one is hilarious.

• 2:22:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that kind of stuff is fun and it's, it's interesting how quickly it can be made too. You know, something that would have taken a long time through these video editors where they were using computer-generated imagery for a long time, but it's very painstaking and very, you know, very expensive. Now it's really cheap.

• 2:22:47Speaker 01

  On the way here, I was like, I wanna make an app to sort of impress you with our technology. I was like, what would Joe like? And then I came up with this idea of like,

• 2:22:59Speaker 01

  A squat form analyzer. And so in the car over way here, sorry, in the lobby, but I made this app to.

• 2:23:10Joe Rogan?

  You made it on the way over here?

• 2:23:11Speaker 01

  On the way, on my phone.

• 2:23:15Speaker 01

  And this is the like really exciting thing about what we built with being able to like program on your phone. Is, you know, being able to like have that inspiration that, you know, can come anytime. And just like immediately pull out your phone and start, start building it.

• 2:23:34Speaker 01

  So here, I'll show you.

• 2:23:42Speaker 01

  So basically just start recording.

• 2:23:47Speaker 01

  And then do a few squats.

• 2:23:54Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:23:57Joe Rogan?

  It's gonna analyze it just from there?

• 2:23:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:24:01Speaker 01

  But I mean, the camera angle is not that great, but that's true.

• 2:24:04Joe Rogan?

  Right, okay.

• 2:24:08Joe Rogan?

  And it's gonna be able to tell you whether or not you're doing it well?

• 2:24:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:24:15Speaker 01

  Those are not my best squats.

• 2:24:18Speaker 01

  Just so you know, Joe Rogan.

• 2:24:18Joe Rogan?

  I'm not judging you.

• 2:24:22Speaker 01

  I used to squat, you know, 350 pounds.

• 2:24:27Speaker 01

  So now it's, it's integrating Google Gemini model to, to kind of run through the video. Analyze it and I'll come up with a score and then suggestions. And so again, this is like a random idea. I was like, okay, what would, what would be interesting to do?

• 2:24:45Joe Rogan?

  But that's a really interesting thing that people could use at the gym, though. Like not just for squats, but maybe for chin ups and all kinds of stuff. Like, oh, maybe, you know, I'm looking at your form and this is what you need to do. To get a little lower, you know, make your elbows parallel to your body, whatever.

• 2:25:01Speaker 01

  I built so many personal apps, like I build apps for analyzing my health. Like I've talked about some of my health problems that are now a lot better. Look, bad form.

• 2:25:13Joe Rogan?

  Just like, straight away, critical.

• 2:25:16Speaker 01

  You're in a nice position, unable to probably assess from the video angle, so yeah, it's a little...

• 2:25:23Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so it's saying it's not the best angle?

• 2:25:25Speaker 01

  But it's saying my depth is bad, which was, which was actually bad. So, and I was leaning forward. But it's pretty good, you know, I tried it a few times, it's, uh, it's really good at that. And so, uh, I, I build a lot of, uh, apps for like, just my personal life.

• 2:25:40Joe Rogan?

  That would be a, that's, that, that would be great for a person who doesn't want a trainer.

• 2:25:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:25:45Joe Rogan?

  You know, I don't wanna deal with some person, let me just work out on my own, but am I doing this right? Set your phone up, have it correct you.

• 2:25:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:25:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:54Speaker 01

  At, at the office, uh, some guys are building, we have this partnership with Whoop, I don't know if you've...

• 2:25:59Joe Rogan?

  Sure, I use Whoop.

• 2:26:01Speaker 01

  And, uh, they're building an app so we can start competing on workouts, based on Whoop data.

• 2:26:07Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's awesome.

• 2:26:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:26:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:10Speaker 01

  Our company's like, very weird for Silicon Valley, like, we have a jiu-jitsu mat, and we have...

• 2:26:16Joe Rogan?

  Oh, really?

• 2:26:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, we have a...

• 2:26:17Joe Rogan?

  Do you guys bring in trainers?

• 2:26:18Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:26:19Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's fucking great, that's awesome, don't get hurt.

• 2:26:23Speaker 01

  It's, um, you know, I only recently got into it, but the, uh, the, the, the hardest thing about it is, is to be calm. Because your, your impulse is to overpower.

• 2:26:35Joe Rogan?

  Yes, yeah.

• 2:26:37Speaker 01

  Is to like...

• 2:26:37Joe Rogan?

  The Gracys have a great saying, "Keep it playful." Yeah, and that's how you really learn the best. It's very hard, and, uh, listen, I'm a giant hypocrite, because most of my jiu-jitsu career, I was a meathead. You know, and I, I, that's one of the reasons why I started really lifting weights a lot, is like, I really like, strength is very valuable. And it is, and it is valuable. But technique is the most valuable, and the best way to acquire technique is to pretend that you don't have any strength.

• 2:27:05Speaker 01

  The best way to acquire technique is pretend to.

• 2:27:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, don't force things, just find the best path. And that requires a lot of data, so you have to understand the positions. You know, so you have to really analyze them. The best jujitsu guys are really smart. Like Mikey Musumichi, Gordon Ryan, Craig Jones, those are very intelligent people.

• 2:27:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:27:28Joe Rogan?

  And that's why they're so good at jujitsu. And then you also have to apply that intelligence to recognize that discipline is a massive factor. Like, Mikey Musumichi trains every day, 12 hours a day.

• 2:27:41Speaker 01

  12 hours a day?

• 2:27:42Joe Rogan?

  12 hours a day. Oh, yeah.

• 2:27:44Speaker 01

  Is that a human impossible to hold?

• 2:27:45Joe Rogan?

  It's possible, yeah, because he's not training full blast. It's not like, like, you can't squat 12 hours a day for 350 pounds. Your body will break down. But you can go over positions over and over and over and over again until they're in muscle memory. But you're not doing them at full strength, right? So like, if you're rolling, right? So say if you're doing drills, you would set up like a guard pass. You know, when you're doing a guard pass, you would tell the person lightly resist, and I'm going to put light pressure on you. And you go over that position, you know, knee shield, pass, you know, hip into it. Turn, here's the counter, on the counter, darts, you know, go for the darts.

• 2:28:28Joe Rogan?

  The person defends the darts, roll, take the back. And just do that over and over and over again.

• 2:28:34Speaker 01

  Until it's muscle memory.

• 2:28:35Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:28:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:28:36Joe Rogan?

  And it's like completely ingrained in your body.

• 2:28:39Speaker 01

  Sort of chess players, it's like, let's focus on the endgame.

• 2:28:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:42Speaker 01

  Just keep repeating the endgame, endgame.

• 2:28:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:44Speaker 01

  I read the Josh Whiteskin book.

• 2:28:46Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:28:47Speaker 01

  What was it called? I forgot. You know, his book about like, I think chess and jujitsu, was it?

• 2:28:53Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, Josh was just in here a few months ago. He's great.

• 2:28:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:28:56Joe Rogan?

  Just, but it's so interesting to see a super intelligent person apply that intelligence to jujitsu.

• 2:29:04Speaker 01

  You know, one of the interesting things when I started getting into, I've always been into, you know, different kinds of sports. And then periods of extreme programming and obesity. But then.

• 2:29:20Speaker 01

  But then I tried to get back into it. I was a swimmer early on. But one thing that I found, especially in the lifting communities, how intelligent everyone are. They're actually almost like.

• 2:29:33Speaker 01

  You know, they're so focused, they're autistically focused on like form and program. And you know, they spend so much time designing these spreadsheets for your program.

• 2:29:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Well, that's, people have this like really.

• 2:29:54Joe Rogan?

  We have this view of things physical, that physical things are not intelligent things. But you need intelligence in order to manage emotions. Emotions are a critical aspect of anything physical. Any really good athlete, you need a few factors. You need discipline, hard work, genetics, but you need intelligence. It might not be the same intelligence. People also, they confuse intelligence with your ability to express yourself. Your vocabulary, your history of reading, you know, like.

• 2:30:35Speaker 01

  It's like a bias almost.

• 2:30:36Joe Rogan?

  Yes, it's a huge bias.

• 2:30:38Speaker 01

  That's like the sort of modern desk job, the laptop class bias.

• 2:30:42Joe Rogan?

  Yes, well, they assume that anything that you're doing physically, you're now no longer using your mind. But it's not true. To, in order to be disciplined, you have to understand how to manage your mind. Managing your mind is an intelligence. And the ability to override those emotions, to conquer that inner bitch that comes to you every time I lift that fucking lid off of that cold plunge. That takes intelligence. You have to understand that this temporary discomfort is worth it in the long run. Because I'm going to have an incredible result after this is over. I'm going to feel so much better.

• 2:31:18Speaker 01

  Right, right, right. Yeah, I haven't thought about intelligence in order to manage your emotions, but that's totally true because you're constantly doing the self-talk.

• 2:31:25Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:31:26Speaker 01

  You're trying to like trick yourself.

• 2:31:27Joe Rogan?

  There's a lot of people that are very intelligent that don't have control over their emotions. But they're intelligent in some ways. It's just they've missed this one aspect of intelligence, which is the management of the functions of the mind itself.

• 2:31:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:31:42Joe Rogan?

  And they don't think that that's critical, but it is critical. It's critical to every aspect of your life and it'll actually improve all those other intellectual pursuits.

• 2:31:50Speaker 01

  You know, to tie it back to the like AI discussion, I think a lot of the programmer researcher type is like they know that one form of intelligence and they over rotate on that and they and that's why I was like, oh, we're so close to like, you know, you know, perfecting intelligence.

• 2:32:06Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:32:07Speaker 01

  Because that's what you know, but there's a lot of other forms of intelligence.

• 2:32:10Joe Rogan?

  There's a lot of forms of intelligence and unfortunately, we're very, we're very narrow in our perceptions of these things and very biased and we think that our intelligence is the only intelligence.

• 2:32:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:32:23Joe Rogan?

  And that this one thing that we concentrate on, this is the only thing that's important.

• 2:32:27Speaker 01

  Right. Have you, have you read or done any CBT, cognitive behavior therapy?

• 2:32:33Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:32:35Speaker 01

  Basically, CBT is like a way to get over depression and anxiety based on self, self-talk and cues. I had to use it, again, I had like sleep issues, I had to use CBTI, cognitive behavior therapy for insomnia. And the idea behind it is to build up what's called sleep pressure. So you don't, first of all, you, insomnia is performance anxiety.

• 2:33:10Speaker 01

  Once you stop, once you have insomnia, you start having anxiety, like by the time bedtime comes, you're like, oh, my God, I'm just gonna.

• 2:33:19Joe Rogan?

  Right. That's interesting.

• 2:33:21Speaker 01

  I'm just gonna, you know, turn over in bed and I'm just gonna be in bed. And then you start associating your bedroom with the suffering of insomnia because you're like sitting there and like, you know, you're all night and really suffering, it's really horrid, horrific. And first of all, you treat your bedroom as a sanctuary, you're only there when you want to sleep. So that's like one thing you program yourself to do. Um, and the other thing is, uh, you don't nap. The entire day, you don't nap at all, no matter what happens, like, uh, even if you're really sleepy, like, get up and take a walk or whatever. And then you build up what's called sleep pressure, uh, like you're, now you have like a lot of, um, sleepiness.

• 2:34:05Speaker 01

  So you go to bed, you try to fall asleep. If you don't fall asleep within fifteen, twenty minutes, you get up, you go out, you do something else. And then when you feel really tired again, you go back to bed.

• 2:34:16Joe Rogan?

  Oh, God.

• 2:34:17Speaker 01

  Uh, and then, and then, and then finally, once you fall asleep, uh, if you wake up in the middle of the night, which is another sort of form of insomnia, uh, instead of staying in bed, you get up, you go somewhere else, you go read or, or do whatever. And like slowly you program yourself to see your bed and, oh, like my, the bed is where I sleep. It's only where I sleep. I don't do anything else there. Um, and you can, you can get over insomnia that way instead of using pills and all the other stuff.

• 2:34:44Joe Rogan?

  Oh, the pills are the worst. God, people that need those fucking things to sleep, I feel for them. I could, I can sleep like that.

• 2:34:52Speaker 01

  That's amazing.

• 2:34:53Joe Rogan?

  I can sleep on the ground.

• 2:34:53Speaker 01

  That's a blessing. That's a blessing.

• 2:34:55Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it's a huge blessing. My wife hates it. It drives her nuts because sometimes she has insomnia. I could sleep on rocks. I could just go lay down in the, on a dirt road and fall asleep.

• 2:35:03Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:35:04Joe Rogan?

  But I'm always going hard. When you're always going hard, you're.

• 2:35:07Speaker 01

  That's the other thing.

• 2:35:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. I, I don't take naps, you know, and I work out basically every day. And so I'm always tired. I'm always ready to go to sleep.

• 2:35:15Speaker 01

  So, so, so do you fight it or do you just, it's not in you to like take a nap?

• 2:35:20Joe Rogan?

  I don't need a nap.

• 2:35:21Speaker 01

  Yeah?

• 2:35:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I never need naps.

• 2:35:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. How, how many hours do you sleep?

• 2:35:25Joe Rogan?

  I try to get eight.

• 2:35:27Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. Do you get, do you get eight?

• 2:35:28Joe Rogan?

  No, last night I didn't get eight, but I got seven, six and a half, probably I got six and a half last night.

• 2:35:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:35:34Joe Rogan?

  But that was because I got home and I started watching TV because I was a little freaked out about the war. And so when I'm freaked out about the war, I like to, um, fill my mind with nonsense.

• 2:35:45Speaker 01

  Oh, what kind of nonsense?

• 2:35:46Joe Rogan?

  Well, I just watch things that have nothing to do with the war. Like I'm, I, I play pool. I'm pretty competitive. I'm real, pretty good. And so I like watching professional pool matches. And there's a lot of them on YouTube, so I just watch pool. And I just watch, you know, patterns, how guys get out.

• 2:36:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:36:01Joe Rogan?

  Stroke, the how they use their stroke, like how different guys have different approaches to the game.

• 2:36:07Speaker 01

  It's crazy, the type A people, I was like, for you, although pool is an escape, it suddenly becomes an obsession and you're like, I need to be the best at it.

• 2:36:14Joe Rogan?

  I'm very obsessed.

• 2:36:16Speaker 01

  So I, you know, I totally quit video games, but then last year I was very stressed, like the company was doing really poorly before we sort of invented this agent technology. And, and then also the, the, you know, Gaza genocide, I was like watching these videos every night. It was just like really, really affecting me.

• 2:36:35Joe Rogan?

  I can't watch that stuff at night. That, the, at night is when I get my anxiety.

• 2:36:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:36:42Joe Rogan?

  I mean, I don't generally have anxiety, but not like a lot of people do. I mean, when I say anxiety, I really feel for people that genuinely suffer from actual anxiety. My anxiety is all sort of self-imposed and when I get online at night and I think about the world, my family's asleep, which is generally when I write. And if, as long as I'm writing, I'm okay.

• 2:37:04Speaker 01

  Comedy.

• 2:37:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you know, I write like sort of an essay form that I extract the comedy from it. But when I get online and I just pay attention to the world, that's when I really freak out because it's all out of your control and it's just murderous psychopaths that are running the world. And you just, it just, at any moment, you could be, you know, in a place where they decide to attack. And then you're a pawn in this fucking insane game that these people are playing in the world.

• 2:37:37Speaker 01

  That's why I felt really frustrated with my family being there. I was like, they, they have no say in it.

• 2:37:42Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:37:43Speaker 01

  The war started, rockets are flying, you know, it's like, but anyways, I. I started uh uh playing a video game, it's called Hades, Hades two. It's like an RPG uh video game. And uh and I was like, I'm trying to disconnect.

• 2:38:00Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:38:01Speaker 01

  And then I started speedrunning that game. Do you know what speedrunning is?

• 2:38:04Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:38:04Speaker 01

  It's like you're trying to finish the game as fast as possible, as fast as human as possible. Uh and I got down to like six minutes and I was number fifty in the world.

• 2:38:13Joe Rogan?

  Whoa, but legitimately.

• 2:38:16Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah. My score is all line, yeah, yeah.

• 2:38:19Joe Rogan?

  To play for. That was crazy.

• 2:38:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was.

• 2:38:22Joe Rogan?

  Why is he doing that? That was crazy.

• 2:38:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's it's myth building, you know.

• 2:38:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, weird.

• 2:38:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, um but yeah, it is. It is this thing about about type A people like you're uh you're just you're you know, even in the in the your escapism becomes competitive and stressful.

• 2:38:39Joe Rogan?

  Well, sort of, but it's also, I feel like it's a discipline. I feel like uh pool is a discipline, just like archery. I'm also obsessed with archery. Archery is a discipline and I feel like the more divergent disciplines that you have in your life, the more you understand what it is about these things that makes you excel and get better at them. And the more thing, when I get better at those things, I get better at life. It's I apply it to everything.

• 2:39:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is another thing that AI now struggles with, which is called transfer learning. You're learning something from domain, like learning something from math on how to like do reasoning in math and being able to do reasoning in politics, which don't have evidence of of that yet. Um and I know I feel the same way, everything, like even powerlifting, when I got really into it, which is like the most unhealthy sport you can you can do.

• 2:39:32Joe Rogan?

  You break your joints down.

• 2:39:33Speaker 01

  Break your joints, you look like shit, because you know, the more you eat, you can lift more. You get fat.

• 2:39:38Joe Rogan?

  They're all fat, like a lot of them. Unless they're competing at a weight class, you have to be lean.

• 2:39:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, um and uh what is that uh repertoire? Have you ever had him on? The jug of milk? Uh Go Mad. You know Go Mad?

• 2:39:53Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:39:53Speaker 01

  Gallon of milk a day. Do you know that, Jamie? Uh, do you know it? Disgusting, yeah, so basically.

• 2:39:59Joe Rogan?

  He drinks a gallon of milk a day?

• 2:40:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, so Mark Rappaport, he's, um, he wrote this book called Starting Strength. And it became like the, the main way most, most guys, at least my age, like getting into, uh, powerlifting. It was about technique, it was about, like, his whole thing is like, look, you know, everyone comes into lifting, they think it's bodybuilding. Powerlifting is nothing like that. And he also looks, looks like shit and he's fat, uh, but his technique is amazing.

• 2:40:25Speaker 01

  And so the way he gets young guys to like get really good and really strong, uh, he puts them on a gallon of milk a day.

• 2:40:31Joe Rogan?

  Does that really have a positive effect?

• 2:40:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, he has a YouTube channel, like, he has a lot of guys that are really, really strong and he's, he's been a coach for a lot of people.

• 2:40:39Joe Rogan?

  What is it about a gallon of milk a day? Is it just the protein intake? What is it?

• 2:40:43Speaker 01

  Calories.

• 2:40:43Speaker 02

  There's a paragraph on it, I mean, it's.

• 2:40:44Joe Rogan?

  Okay, here it is. Drink a gallon of milk a day, go mad, is undeniably the most effective nutritional strategy for adding slabs of mass to young, underweight males. Milk is relatively cheap, painless to prepare, and the macronutrient profile is very balanced and calories are always easier to drink than eat. Unfortunately, those interested in muscular hypertrophy, hypertrophy, rather, who are not young, underweight and male, populations where go mad is not recommended, will need to put more effort into the battle to avoid excess fat accumulation. Body composition can be manipulated progressively, much like barbell training, to achieve the best results. For example, the starting strength novice linear progression holds exercise selection, frequency and volume variables constant.

• 2:41:29Joe Rogan?

  Okay. Every forty-eight to seventy-two hours, the load stressor is incrementally increased to elicit adaptation and strength. If the load increase is too significant or insignificant, the desired adaptation won't take place. Yeah, this is the intelligence, right? This is the intelligence involved in lifting that people who are on the outside of it would dismiss.

• 2:41:50Speaker 01

  Science, yeah, yeah.

• 2:41:53Speaker 01

  You know, I'm so honored to be the, the guy that introduces Joe Rogan to starting strength.

• 2:41:59Joe Rogan?

  You did go mad.

• 2:42:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, go mad. Rappaport is so funny. You should like watch some of his videos. He's, he has like this very thick, uh, Texan accent and he's just like, his audience shits on him all the time. They call him fat and ugly and whatever and he, and he abuses his audience too.

• 2:42:15Joe Rogan?

  Let me see this guy, let me see this guy.

• 2:42:17Speaker 01

  Put his picture up.

• 2:42:18Joe Rogan?

  That's the dude?

• 2:42:19Speaker 01

  That, that's old photo. He's not much better.

• 2:42:24Joe Rogan?

  So he's just a nerd?

• 2:42:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's a huge nerd, but like, yeah, he used to lift a lot, a lot of weight.

• 2:42:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, there's a lot. That's what he used to look like? That one photo with him with the hairy chest? The black, oh, okay.

• 2:42:39Joe Rogan?

  Wow, damn.

• 2:42:41Speaker 01

  Is that him?

• 2:42:42Joe Rogan?

  Is that him?

• 2:42:42Speaker 01

  I don't think so.

• 2:42:43Joe Rogan?

  Really? It does look like him. Yeah, that's him. He used to be jacked.

• 2:42:47Speaker 01

  Okay, that's good.

• 2:42:48Joe Rogan?

  Oh, so he was a bodybuilder at one point in time?

• 2:42:50Speaker 01

  But then he got on that Go Match yet.

• 2:42:53Joe Rogan?

  No, he's a power lifter. Simply no other exercise, no machine, prevent the level of muscular stimulation and growth than to correctly perform full squat. Meanwhile, he's deadlifting in that image. That's weird.

• 2:43:05Speaker 01

  So he also makes you squat on every, on every day of lifting?

• 2:43:11Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 2:43:12Speaker 01

  So squat every time, every time you lift.

• 2:43:14Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:43:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, his idea is like squat is a full body exercise, like you can just go to the gym. And when I, when I used to be busy and I just want to maintain, like be healthy, I'll just squat every.

• 2:43:26Joe Rogan?

  Just get fifteen, twenty minutes.

• 2:43:28Speaker 01

  Fifteen, twenty minutes squat and just get out of the gym.

• 2:43:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:43:32Speaker 01

  But.

• 2:43:32Joe Rogan?

  Well, I do something with legs every day.

• 2:43:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:43:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:43:35Speaker 01

  You have to.

• 2:43:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:43:36Speaker 01

  But squat, actually, it does feel like there's, there's an upper body component to it as well.

• 2:43:41Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's also your body recognizes like, oh, this asshole wants to lift like really heavy things. We gotta get big.

• 2:43:46Speaker 01

  Right, exactly.

• 2:43:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's the best way to get big.

• 2:43:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:43:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, because your body just realizes like, okay, we have to adapt. This shithead wants to

• 2:43:55Joe Rogan?

  lift giant things every day. Yeah.

• 2:43:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's hilarious. And you know, the other one, I'm sure, you, you know him, I think you introduced me to him through your podcast, Louis Simmons.

• 2:44:04Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:44:05Speaker 01

  Those, those guys are crazy. You watch the Netflix documentary?

• 2:44:08Joe Rogan?

  I didn't watch the Netflix doc, but we did actually interview him. He's like one of the few people that I traveled to go meet.

• 2:44:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:44:15Joe Rogan?

  Who went to West Side Barbe.

• 2:44:17Speaker 01

  I saw that.

• 2:44:17Joe Rogan?

  It was great. We have some of his equipment out here.

• 2:44:19Speaker 01

  Oh, that reverse hyper?

• 2:44:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, we have, reverse hyper is so good for people that have back problems. Everyone that has a back issue, I go, let me show you something. And I bring them out to the reverse hyper machine and I'm like, this thing will actively strengthen and decompress your spine.

• 2:44:34Speaker 01

  Right, right. It's so good.

• 2:44:35Joe Rogan?

  It's so good for people that have like lower back issues where the doctor just wants to cut them. I'm like, hold on, hold on. Don't do that right away.

• 2:44:43Speaker 01

  I had back pain since, since my late teens and, and the doctors want to, like, they.

• 2:44:53Speaker 01

  They they did a MRI and they they found that there's there's a bit of a bulge. And they want to do an operations on it.

• 2:44:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they want to do a dissectomy.

• 2:45:01Speaker 01

  Someone wanted to put me in antidepressants. Apparently you can manage pain with antidepressants. Have you heard of that?

• 2:45:05Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 2:45:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, apparently it's a thing. And and and through listening to your podcasts and others, I was like, it was just gonna get strong. So I got I got strong squats and things like that and and and the pain got a lot better. Didn't didn't go away entirely. But the thing that like really got me over the hump, and this this one's crazy.

• 2:45:28Speaker 01

  Are you familiar with the mind body prescription?

• 2:45:31Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:45:32Speaker 01

  John Sarno?

• 2:45:32Joe Rogan?

  Oh, OK, yes.

• 2:45:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:45:34Joe Rogan?

  I heard about him on Howard Stern, because he was talking about how a lot of back pain is psychosomatic.

• 2:45:38Speaker 01

  Psychosomatic, yeah. I don't so so his idea, and again, this is like-

• 2:45:42Joe Rogan?

  He doesn't understand jujitsu, because a lot of back pain is real as fuck.

• 2:45:46Speaker 01

  Right, right, right. I mean, I don't think-

• 2:45:48Joe Rogan?

  Settle down.

• 2:45:49Speaker 01

  I think for me, it was a combination, of both, like there's something physically happening. But like, his idea is that

• 2:45:59Speaker 01

  his idea is that your mind is creating the pain to distract you from emotional psychological pain.

• 2:46:06Joe Rogan?

  I think that's the case in some people.

• 2:46:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, and and then doctors will go do an image and often

• 2:46:16Speaker 01

  they'll find something and he thinks that like lumber imperfections are almost in everyone.

• 2:46:22Joe Rogan?

  Yes, I think that's true.

• 2:46:24Speaker 01

  And then and then the doctors latch on to that. And and your mind latches on to that and you you start reinforcing, telling yourself that that I have this thing and the pain gets worse. There's also another thing called the salience network. Have you heard of this?

• 2:46:44Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:46:45Speaker 01

  If you can bring up the Wikipedia page for salience network, because I don't want to get it wrong. But the salience network is a network in the brain that neuroscientists found.

• 2:46:55Speaker 01

  Uh, my doctor, Tadi Akik, he told me about this. The uh, uh, Salience Network is, gets reinforced whenever you obsess over your pains or your health issues.

• 2:47:15Joe Rogan?

  That makes sense.

• 2:47:15Speaker 01

  So it's responsible for perception and the more you reinforce, it's like a, it's like a muscle. The more you reinforce it, it's sort of like AI, you know, reinforcement learning. The more you reinforce it, it becomes more of an issue.

• 2:47:27Joe Rogan?

  Including various functions, including social behavior, self-awareness and integrating sensory, emotional and cognitive information. Boy, I bet social media is really bad for that.

• 2:47:37Speaker 01

  Right, totally.

• 2:47:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:47:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:47:39Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:47:39Speaker 01

  And, and so, you know, a lot of the, you know, fatigue and things like that. At some point, I'm like, fuck it. Uh, I did a lot of other things, but at some point, I'm like, fuck it. I don't, I don't care about it. I don't have it. I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna be, uh, I'm just gonna be good.

• 2:47:55Joe Rogan?

  Hmm, just not concentrate on that.

• 2:47:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz I was reading about it all the time. I was doing, I was like really worried and.

• 2:48:02Joe Rogan?

  I had Abigail Schreier in.

• 2:48:03Speaker 01

  I got better.

• 2:48:04Joe Rogan?

  She was talking about that in regards to cognitive therapy, that there's a lot of people that like obsess on their problems so much that their problems actually become bigger.

• 2:48:12Speaker 01

  Yes, and this is it. This is the neuroscience behind it, the Salience Network.

• 2:48:16Joe Rogan?

  Makes sense.

• 2:48:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:48:18Joe Rogan?

  But there's legit back problems.

• 2:48:20Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 2:48:21Joe Rogan?

  Legit back, that's why the John Sarno thing, I was like, okay, not for me. I'd, I'd understand how some people could develop that issue.

• 2:48:30Speaker 01

  But his, his insight was like, look, I ran a clinic in New York City for a long time and there, these uh, chronic illnesses come in waves. There is a, there is a ulcers wave in the like nineties.

• 2:48:43Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 2:48:44Speaker 01

  There is.

• 2:48:45Joe Rogan?

  Because it became a thing that people were talking about a lot.

• 2:48:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:48:47Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:48:48Speaker 01

  And then there's a, there's like a neck pain and then there's an RSI. The most recent one was RSI.

• 2:48:53Joe Rogan?

  What is RSI?

• 2:48:54Speaker 01

  Uh, repetitive strain injury.

• 2:48:56Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 2:48:57Speaker 01

  And again, these old thing, all these things have rational uh. Explanations. For me, I was in the computer all the time. And I was like, ah, my arm hurts. And, yeah, maybe, you know, there was some aspect of it. I was programming a lot.

• 2:49:17Speaker 01

  But also after I read John Sarno and I realized that some of it might be also psychological, that, you know, it's stress, it's, I don't know what, maybe I have some childhood issues. But, but like, you just realize that a lot of it, and maybe the other way is true as well, when you just like minimize it, it just becomes less of a, of an issue in your mind. But the fact that it is like fashion should tell you that there's something like psychosomatic.

• 2:49:45Joe Rogan?

  Right. The fact that it does come in waves like that, for sure. And then once it's in the zeitgeist, ulcers, or whatever it is, yeah.

• 2:49:53Speaker 01

  Right. I remember when I, when we were kids, like, everyone had ulcers. And I was like, oh, it's from coffee in the morning. Like, there's all these, I don't know anyone that has ulcers now.

• 2:50:03Joe Rogan?

  Right. I don't either. That's true. That's crazy.

• 2:50:07Speaker 01

  That's wild.

• 2:50:08Joe Rogan?

  It is wild, the mind, like, the way it can benefit you, or the way it can hold you prisoner.

• 2:50:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. And again, this is maybe why I have, like, a little, like, different view about AI and humans and all of that from Silicon Valley. Like, this is a weird thing, but every time I set my mind to, like, meet someone, I meet them, including you.

• 2:50:36Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow. That's weird.

• 2:50:39Speaker 01

  Like, yeah, I want to meet this person. Something happens, some chain of events, but obviously, you know, you also seek it somewhere.

• 2:50:46Joe Rogan?

  But it's obviously, you're doing something very, you're, you're, you're not just thinking it, you're also doing things.

• 2:50:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:50:54Joe Rogan?

  Which is my problem with, like, the secret and, like, the power of manifesting things.

• 2:50:57Speaker 01

  I don't go that far, but, I don't know, like, there's something to it.

• 2:51:01Joe Rogan?

  There's something. There's something there. Yeah, I agree. There's something to it.

• 2:51:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:51:05Joe Rogan?

  I just. I think the mind and our connection to reality is not as simple as we've been told.

• 2:51:16Speaker 01

  Not at all. I think there's something there. And again, when you start looking at psychedelics and stuff like that, there's something there. And I remember listening to one of it. I love JRE circa early 2010s. There was a remote viewing. You were talking about a remote viewing episode. And I was like, wow, that's crazy. And obviously, very skeptical of it. The idea that you can meditate and like see somewhere else, or see it from above.

• 2:51:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:51:50Speaker 01

  I read a book about Da Vinci. It's called Da Vinci's Brain, I think. And Da Vinci's like fascinating. Who's this fucking guy?

• 2:52:00Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:52:00Speaker 01

  He does everything. And he literally is like across all these domains. And he doesn't, he barely sleeps. Like, he has this polyphasic sleep thing, which I tried once. It's torture. Basically, every four hours, you sleep for 15 minutes. When I was in university, I was very good at computer science, but I hated going to school. And in Jordan, if you don't go to school, they ban you from the exam.

• 2:52:31Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:52:32Speaker 01

  I was getting As, but I just didn't want to, like, I didn't want to sit in class. And actually, this is when I started thinking about programming on my phone. I was like, maybe I can code my phone in class. But I felt there was like injustice. Like, I was just ADHD, whatever you want to call it. Like, I just can't sit in class. Like, just give me a break. And so I felt justified to, you know, rebel or fix the situation somehow. So I decided to like hack into the university and change my grades. So I can graduate. Because everyone was graduating. I was like five years in. It took me six years to get through a four-year program, just because I can't sit in class. And, you know, have some dyslexia and things like that. But

• 2:53:16Speaker 01

  So I I decided to do that. I'm like, OK, I'm like hacking takes a lot of time because like you're coding, you're scripting, you're running scripts against servers and you're waiting. And I'm like, I'm just gonna, you know, to optimize my time, I'm just gonna do this Da Vinci thing where like four hours. By the way, there's a Seinfeld episode where what's his name, the crazy guy in Seinfeld?

• 2:53:41Joe Rogan?

  Kramer?

• 2:53:42Speaker 01

  Kramer. Kramer does polyphasic sleep. Maybe I learned it from there. I'm not sure.

• 2:53:47Joe Rogan?

  How do you wake up?

• 2:53:49Speaker 01

  You set an alarm.

• 2:53:50Joe Rogan?

  Oh, God.

• 2:53:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's torture.

• 2:53:53Joe Rogan?

  That sounds so crazy.

• 2:53:54Speaker 01

  Apparently Da Vinci used to do that. But anyways, I was able to to hack into the university by like working for weeks using polyphasic sleep and was able to change my grades. And initially, I didn't want to do it on myself, but I had a neighbor who went together to school. And I was like, you know, let's change this grade and see if it actually succeeds and actually succeeded in his case. And it was my lab rat. But in my case, I got caught. And the reason I got caught is there is, you know, in the database,

• 2:54:35Speaker 01

  there's your grade out of 100, you know, zero to 100. When you get banned because of attendance, your grade is de facto 35. So I thought I would just change that. And that's the thing that will get me to to pass. Well, turns out there's another field in the database about whether you're banned or not.

• 2:54:55Joe Rogan?

  Ah.

• 2:54:56Speaker 01

  This is bad. This is bad coding. This is bad programming because it's this this database is not normalized. There's a state in two different fields. So I'll put the blame on them for not designing the right database.

• 2:55:10Joe Rogan?

  You blame them for your hacking being unsuccessful. So what was the punishment?

• 2:55:14Speaker 01

  So the entire university system went down because there's this anomaly. I was, I was, I was, you know, I passed, but at the same time, I was, I was banned. And so I got a call from the head of the registration system. And it was like 7:00 PM, whatever, it was landline. And I pick up the call, he's like, hey, listen, we have this issue we're dealing with. Like, the entire thing is down and, and it just shows your record, there's a problem with it. Do you know anything about it? And at the time, I'm like, all right, there's like a fork in the road. You know, I either like come clean or just like, this is a lie that will like live for me forever. And I was like, I was just gonna say, I was like, yeah, I, I did it. And I was like, what do you mean?

• 2:55:59Speaker 01

  I was like, okay, I'll, I'll come explain it to you. So, so the next day I, I go there and it's all the university deans. And it's like one of the best computer science universities in, in the region. The princess of my university for technology. And they're all nerds, you know, it's, it's, so I, the, the, the discussion became technical on like how I hacked in the university. And I, I went to whiteboard and explaining what I did, this is whatever. And it just felt like a brainstorming session. I'm like, all right, I'll see you guys later. It's like, wait, um, we need to figure out what to do with you. Like, you know, this is serious. And I'm like, oh crap. But the president of, uh, they, they kind of put the decision to the president and he was, I forgot his name, but he was such an enlightened guy.

• 2:56:44Speaker 01

  And, and I went and told him like, I just didn't mean any malice. I just felt like justified, I need to graduate. I've been here for a long time, I actually do good work. And, um, and he's like, look, you're, you're talented, um, but with great power comes great responsibility. He gave me the Spider-Man.

• 2:57:03Speaker 01

  And he said, for us to forgive you, you're gonna have to go and harden the systems in the university against against hacking. So I spent the summer trying to work with the with the engineers at the university to to do that. But but they hated me because, you know, I'm the guy that hacked into the system. So they would like blackball me. Like, sometimes I'll show up to work and they wouldn't open the door and I can't see them. Like, I could see you there, I'm knocking. And they wouldn't let me in and let me work with them. We did some stuff to to fix it and and then

• 2:57:38Speaker 01

  I I gained, you know, fame, maybe notoriety in the in the university and actually got me my first job.

• 2:57:47Speaker 01

  While I was in school and it's a different story, but that that job was was at a at a startup that ended up making videos that were a big part of the Arab Spring.

• 2:57:58Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:57:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I I was part of some of these videos as well. But anyways, so one of the computer deans was like, hey, listen, I really helped you out. A computer science dean, I really helped you out when you had this problem. And I need you to work with me in order to do another research to hack into the university again. It's like, I'm not not gonna do that, like, I don't wanna get it. No, it's like, no, you're not gonna get in trouble, you're you're gonna.

• 2:58:25Joe Rogan?

  Sanctioned.

• 2:58:26Speaker 01

  It's gonna be sanctioned. So so again, I worked hard on that. This time I I invent a piece of software to help me do that. And and I I was able to like find more more vulnerabilities.

• 2:58:42Speaker 01

  And so I show up at my project defense and it's it's like a committee of different deans and students and all of that. And so I go up and I start explaining my my project. And like I run a scan against the university network and it showed a bunch of red, like there's vulnerabilities. And one of the deans is like, no, that's fake, you're that's not true. It started dawning in me that I was like a pawn in some kind of.

• 2:59:10Joe Rogan?

  Power struggle.

• 2:59:11Speaker 01

  Power struggle. So that that guy was responsible for the university's system and this guy is using me too.

• 2:59:19Speaker 01

  I was like, oh shit. But like, I'm not gonna back down. I was like, no, it's not a lie. It's true. And so I'd like tap into that vulnerability and I go into the database and I'm like, all right, what do you, what do you want me to show? Your salary or your password? It was like, show me my password. So I show him the password. And I was like, no, that's not my password. And it was encrypted. But they also have in the database like a decrypt function, which they shouldn't have, but they had it. So I was like decrypt to the password and the password showed on the screen in the middle of the defense. And so he stood up, his, his, his face was red. He shakes my hand and he leaves to change his password.

• 3:00:04Joe Rogan?

  That's awesome.

• 3:00:05Speaker 01

  And I graduated and, you know, they caught me some slack and I, I was able to graduate.

• 3:00:10Joe Rogan?

  That's awesome. That's a great story. We, we'll end with that. Thank you very much, brother. I really appreciate it.

• 3:00:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, my pleasure.

• 3:00:16Joe Rogan?

  It was a great, great conversation.

• 3:00:17Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 3:00:18Joe Rogan?

  Um, your app, let everybody know about it.

• 3:00:20Speaker 01

  Replit, R E P L I T dot com.

• 3:00:22Joe Rogan?

  How do they find it? There it is.

• 3:00:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:00:24Joe Rogan?

  Replit. Replit.com.

• 3:00:26Speaker 01

  Go make some apps.

• 3:00:27Joe Rogan?

  Go make some apps, people. Avoid the whatever the hell's gonna happen to the AI. All right. Thank you very much.

• 3:00:33Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 3:00:34Joe Rogan?

  Bye, everybody.

• 3:00:49Joe Rogan?

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