Power, Property, & Prestige: Kurt Sutter & Katey Sagal Share The Unfiltered Truth About Marriage, Recovery, Success Addiction & The Path Back To Purpose

Kurt Sutter and Katey Sagal are the Hollywood power couple behind “Sons of Anarchy,” numerous iconic performances, and hosts of the podcast “PIE.” This conversation strips bare the intoxicating trap of fame, the parallel paths that led them both to sobriety at 31, and the brutal honesty required to save their relationship when “money, property, and prestige” threatened everything. Kurt’s evolution from Hollywood’s combative bad boy to spiritual seeker alongside Katey’s unflinching wisdom on intimacy creates a masterclass in reinvention. They’re authentic. They’re vulnerable. Their journey might change how you think about success. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Momentous: 20% OFF all of my favorite products 👉livemomentous.com/richroll Roka: Unlock 20% OFF your order with code RICHROLL 👉ROKA.com/RICHROLL Pique: Get up to 20% OFF plus a FREE rechargeable frother and glass beaker with your first purchase 👉piquelife.com/richroll OneSkin: Get started today with 15% off using code RICHROLL at oneskin.co LMNT: Get a free LMNT Sample Pack with any purchase 👉 drinkLMNT.com/richroll Bragg: Get 20% OFF your first order with code RICHROLL👉 Bragg.com IQBAR: Get 20% OFF all IQBAR products plus FREE shipping. Just text RICHROLL to sixty-four thousand. Message and data rates may apply. Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors 👉 richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:06Speaker 01

  Every project I've worked on, there's been at least one person who I've helped get sober. It has to be about love and service, right?

• 1:14Speaker 02

  I know of my experience at first going to group recovery meetings was, I'm not the only person that can't seem to manage a life without being medicated in some way. And there was huge relief in that.

• 1:28Rich Roll?

  You know I love me a good addiction recovery story, but you know what's better than that? Two recovery stories that become one love story. When Kurt Sutter and Katie Segal first met, they shared something profound. Like me, they both got sober at the age of 31. And today, many decades later, they have plenty of hard-earned wisdom and direct life experience to share. But also, they're still growing, they're still evolving, and they're doing it together in a way that I think is really inspiring, not just for the sober or the sober curious, but for literally anyone in a long-term relationship who is committed to actually making it more intimate, more nourishing, and more rewarding than it has ever been.

• 2:13Speaker 02

  You have to really want it, all the good and the bad of it. You know, the struggle of it.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  I have to find that fire. And if it's not the atta boys and the paycheck, what is it?

• 2:25Rich Roll?

  You might remember Kurt from his appearance on the show back in 2018. Kurt is a screenwriter and a television showrunner, best known for creating the hit show Sons of Anarchy, which actually co-starred his wife Katie, who is a musician and Golden Globe winning actress, who's literally been appearing on screen her entire life. You might remember her from Married with Children, all the way to Futurama and everything in between. But today, it's really all about recovery. It's about relationships. We talk about family, parenthood, and most notably, what happens when two people make the deliberate choice to evolve together through all of life's setbacks and celebrations, as well as Pi, their new podcast venture in which they explore all these themes and more with rare Hollywood honesty.

• 3:10Speaker 01

  I do not leave my work at home. I do not leave my work at set. Those characters talk to me all the time.

• 3:17Speaker 02

  It is a blessing to be able to be an artist. It's just kind of crazy, man. It's insane what we do.

• 3:29Rich Roll?

  It's great to have you guys here. I've been looking forward to this for a really long time. And, you know, Kurt, I've known you for, I don't know, almost 20 years, probably, at this point.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, at the Rosewood.

• 3:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:39Speaker 01

  I mean, I'd seen you around, but that's where I got to know you.

• 3:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And Katie, I've only met you a couple times, so you're the lock. This is what we're going to unlock today.

• 3:51Speaker 01

  Oh, good.

• 3:51Speaker 02

  That shouldn't be too hard.

• 3:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah. But, but you guys are an interesting couple. There's a lot of interesting overlaps with my own family and my own marriage. But, you know, you're a Hollywood big shot power couple. You've conquered Tinseltown.

• 4:06Speaker 02

  Are we?

• 4:06Rich Roll?

  You've got Golden Globes and Hollywood, you know, Walk of Fame stars. But you know what? You just, you had to like tiptoe into my little garden, right? And, and like tackle the podcasting thing? I mean, come on. It's not enough, right? Like, The Hungry Ghost is still alive. More, more, more mountains to climb.

• 4:25Speaker 01

  You should just listen to our, our pillow talk. It's, we're never going to work again. That's our pillow talk.

• 4:30Speaker 02

  That's what we're on. That's exactly it. So, no, we just really wanted to have a podcast because we just actually are pretty reclusive and don't know a lot of people. And we thought-

• 4:41Rich Roll?

  You know everybody.

• 4:41Speaker 02

  No. Seems that way. But, you know-

• 4:44Rich Roll?

  I went to your Hollywood party. You guys know a few people.

• 4:48Speaker 02

  Well, we know a few people-

• 4:49Speaker 01

  That's why we have the Christmas party, is because-

• 4:51Speaker 02

  We don't see anybody all year.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  Because I don't like to leave the house.

• 4:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 4:55Speaker 01

  She's much more social than I am. But, really, the podcast was like, hey, I want to get to know whomever. And that seemed like a good excuse to get them in our home.

• 5:07Speaker 02

  I think it also started-

• 5:08Speaker 01

  That didn't feel creepy.

• 5:09Speaker 02

  Started with, who should we invite to a dinner party? Oh, we don't really know anybody.

• 5:15Rich Roll?

  Well, Kurt, I've heard you say, like, oh, I started it because, like, I don't have any friends, right?

• 5:19Speaker 01

  That's certainly great.

• 5:20Rich Roll?

  And, you know, I share that kind of isolationism, you know, reclusiveness, mercurial, and, you know, kind of my own worst enemy in that regard. And that is the gift of podcasting. Like, you get to have people come over and hold them captive, and you have an experience. And then there's lots of talk about how you're gonna hang out. Sometimes it happens. I mean, I've had, I have amazing relationships because of this thing. So it does, it does serve that. But on the friend piece, like, this is a, this is a thing, you know, for me, because I basically just do my thing, and then I go home, you know? And I have these experiences at this table, and it's great. And that really is like my social life outside of my family life, you know?

• 6:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:03Rich Roll?

  And, and I've spent a lot of time, like, reflecting on, like, the state of my friendships, and, and the lack of nourishment that I, that I've given them. And I was remembering, as I was thinking about, like, you know, what we're gonna talk about today, that there were a couple times where you reached out to me, like, hey, let's hang out, let's, you know, whatever, let's connect. And then I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then it doesn't happen. Like, this is a pattern that I'm in, you know, that I'm very aware of, and yet have failed to kind of transcend.

• 6:33Speaker 01

  But I also manifest that pattern as well. So when people don't get back to me, it's like, I think, most of the time, it's like, oh, I should have followed up with that. Do you know what I mean? Like, I just assumed it was my part to that didn't get fulfilled. So you're off the hook on that one.

• 6:54Rich Roll?

  Okay, good. I feel better. Okay, end of podcast. We've resolved that.

• 6:59Speaker 02

  That's a conversation I've had with my therapist a lot. It's so interesting about friends, you know, and trying to maintain and meet new friends at an older part of your life. And it's really, you know, it's a thing. It's a real effort that you have to put into. And I think that's why I find it difficult. Not, not difficult, but just like you have to make it have intention with it, you know?

• 7:25Rich Roll?

  I think particularly when the kids are older also. Like when they're in school, you're kind of around other parents. You become friends with the parents of your, sometimes, I know, right? Like, that's a whole tricky thing as well. But now that the kids are older, it's kind of like, oh, okay.

• 7:40Speaker 01

  You know, and this is a whole other, obviously, thing, but, you know, moderation is not my strong suit. So like, I find it very difficult to have casual friendships. Like, if I'm putting energy into a friendship, like, I want it to have a certain amount of depth and intimacy. And that requires the other person to need that as well. And sometimes I will be maybe too forthright or too engaged and I can tell that people are like, whoa.

• 8:19Rich Roll?

  Scare people off.

• 8:20Speaker 01

  A little bit like, oh, coffee, buddy, coffee. You know what I mean? And, because I just, and, you know, and it's what we get to do on our thing is, is go, who are you? And then I isolate if I don't get the response, you know what I mean?

• 8:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 8:38Speaker 01

  If I don't get the response that I need.

• 8:39Speaker 02

  Well, I think it's all hooked up to recovery community. I mean, because... As we're all in that community, there's not a lot of small talk that goes on.

• 8:47Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 8:47Speaker 02

  I mean, we're talking about real things that, you know, that almost killed us at a certain point in our lives. And so, we have a certain way that we dialogue with people. And if they're not in that, it is difficult. It's difficult to find where to land.

• 9:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, you have to create an environment that is conducive to that for somebody who doesn't have that kind of relationship with communicating that way. So you have to like, lead with vulnerability, or make sure that they feel safe. And not everybody is willing to go there. But I think people in recovery make for great podcast hosts because of that very thing. And I just remember, because, you know, I've been doing this like, over 12 years at this point. But I was a very early, like, adopter as a listener of podcasts, like, way back, when there weren't very many. But I would keep coming back to like, Marc Maron, or something. It's like, because guys in recovery, like, they go, they know how to get right into it. They're not afraid to like, you know, tell their secrets and,

• 9:46Rich Roll?

  you know, go to those places. And I think there's something about, you know, being in recovery, and your relationship with honesty, that make, that lends itself very well to this medium. And I just know, when I started mine, I wanted to model the AA meeting experience for a broader audience that is not necessarily in recovery, or has any kind of problem, but just like, this is, this is like, how to have like, a real conversation. Like, that feeling of connectivity that you get when you're participating in like, a vulnerable experience between a couple people.

• 10:21Speaker 02

  Right. That's great.

• 10:23Rich Roll?

  And it feels like that's what you're doing. And that's kind of the motivation.

• 10:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, I think it's also, we don't really know, I mean, I don't really know how to not do that. You know what I mean? After a certain, I've been in recovery a long time. And it is what taught me how to be able to communicate with people at all. You know, because for years, in my younger life, I was, you know, it was a false self. It was a false, I don't know, I was, I was being who I thought I should be.

• 10:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 10:53Speaker 02

  So I think after years of talking, I hate the overuse of the word authentic, but after years of speaking authentically, it becomes the only way you know how. So, it's interesting, you find the people that are...

• 11:10Speaker 02

  Maybe afraid to be that way, suddenly they're, they're not so afraid, because we, we, we create a safe space. You know, if you're vulnerable, it's easier for someone else to be.

• 11:21Rich Roll?

  You create the permissiveness for them to be so. So you're sober like, what, like 38 years or something?

• 11:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So let's, let's tell your story. Let's do a little, uh, what it was like, what happened and what it's like now. I mean, you grew up in, in LA and kind of like, uh, you know, a movie TV family.

• 11:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I grew up, my father was a director, my mother was a singer and then a writer. They met, um, when my mother worked on the Jerry Lewis Dean Martin Show years ago, and Norman Lear introduced my parents. My father was-

• 11:54Rich Roll?

  And he's, he's your godfather?

• 11:55Speaker 02

  He's my godfather, yeah.

• 11:57Rich Roll?

  That's crazy.

• 11:57Speaker 02

  And he, I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Norman, because he put them together. She was working for him. And my dad was directing in Yiddish theater and they all hooked up. And so I grew up all around Los Angeles, yes, because we would move depending on work. You know, I lived this circus life that we live now for most of my life, yeah.

• 12:19Rich Roll?

  And growing up with creative parents, doing their thing, but they both, they both passed away young, right?

• 12:26Speaker 02

  They did. Yeah, my mom had heart disease from the time she was 35, which is very, very young. And she also, she had a host of other things going on with depression and all that. So she, she actually passed away at 47. And I have lots of feelings about what actually might have gone down, that, um, it is, it is said that she died from heart disease. And then my father, yeah, was actually, I guess we can talk about all this, yeah, he was actually killed on a movie set.

• 13:03Rich Roll?

  It was like a helicopter accident or something?

• 13:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, he walked into a helicopter blade, which was brutal. As, you know, it's interesting because from the places that we come from, you know, my dad was, was a bigger-than-life kind of angry dude. And I think- Some of that contributed to him being disoriented and not getting his shot and pissed off, his script was in the helicopter and he kind of whipped around before the thing shut off and that's what happened.

• 13:30Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 13:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, so.

• 13:32Rich Roll?

  How old were you at that time?

• 13:34Speaker 02

  I was 26 when my dad passed. I was just turning 20 when my mom passed. Yeah, my 20s were rough, man. I mean, I, you know, I understand why I was checking out all the time.

• 13:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 13:47Speaker 02

  It just progressively got weirder. I also had, you know, a medical thing when I was 28. I had cancer when I was 28, thyroid cancer, which is the kind to get, apparently. And so it was a rough, it was rough during my 20s as I was trying to be a rock star, which was also rough.

• 14:06Rich Roll?

  Right, so music was always the thing from the beginning?

• 14:09Speaker 02

  Always.

• 14:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 14:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:10Rich Roll?

  And the drugs and alcohol piece, like, when did that enter and what did that look like?

• 14:15Speaker 02

  That entered when I was about 14 and really what it was is my parents, my father being a director liking everything to look a certain way, I was overweight as a teen. Even though now I look back at pictures, Rich, I looked, I looked pretty good. I was not like obese, but I definitely had a food thing. And so my parents took me to the doctor. They gave me diet pills, which is what happened. So I'm 14 and suddenly I have legal speed from the doctor. And then on the weekends, I'm drinking wine and smoking weed. And then this speed becomes, this is what I think it was, I think I needed some sort of antidepressant because I didn't really lose any weight, I just felt better.

• 14:59Speaker 02

  You know, it just made me lighten up. And then eventually that turned into, you know, street speed and it turned into cocaine and it turned into all the, all the fun stuff that was going on when I was a wannabe rock star. And working a lot with rock star, you know, I was, I worked as a background singer for years, so I was on the road a lot. And it was just kind of the lifestyle. But it had become something I needed from a really early age.

• 15:31Rich Roll?

  You were a background singer for quite the collection of talent, weren't you?

• 15:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:37Rich Roll?

  Like Bob Dylan, Tonya Tucker.

• 15:39Speaker 02

  Tonya Tucker, Bette Midler.

• 15:41Rich Roll?

  Olivia Newton-John.

• 15:42Speaker 02

  Etta James, yeah. Well, I was kind of a, you know, I did a lot of road work, but I also did some recording. I don't read music and I'm like a really good faker. So I'd always like, I would do session work and I couldn't read the notes, but I could hear the notes. So as long as I was in the right place harmonizing, I was fine. Yeah. It was really on my way to, I started writing songs when I was young. When I was like 13, I taught myself to play the piano and then those diet pills really helped with songwriting. I gotta say, you know, give me some of those, some cigarettes and a piano and I was off and running.

• 16:24Rich Roll?

  Locked in.

• 16:25Speaker 02

  Locked in.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  Just tell me when you would tour with Etta, how you would end up singing more and more.

• 16:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, I got a gig with my, I've been married a couple of times, well, three times. And so my first husband, he auditioned to be in one of my bands and got the gig. And then he was also playing with Etta James. So he got me on that gig and I was Etta's background singer. And Etta, as we would tour, I went all over the country on a bus, me and Etta and a bunch of dudes. And she'd let me open the show for her. So I'd go out and as the tour would start, she'd have me go out and sing one song. And then by, you know, three quarters of the way through, I'm doing like five songs.

• 17:02Speaker 01

  She's exhausted.

• 17:03Speaker 02

  And Etta's like, you just keep going. I mean, it was really, it was amazing. It was a lesson in just so many things. But yeah, I worked as a, I mean gratefully, I had, I was able to support myself.

• 17:17Rich Roll?

  Do you still consider yourself a musician first?

• 17:20Speaker 02

  You know, I was just talking to Kurt about it because yes and no. Now I felt, I feel like my acting trajectory, which was completely by surprise, now I've learned how to be an actor and I love acting. But music is my first love. But really what I want to do now, I was just talking to Kurt about it, because I don't, I've always had a band. I don't have a band right now, but I want to start a choir.

• 17:48Speaker 02

  I like choir singing.

• 17:49Rich Roll?

  Like Kanye's Sunday School?

• 17:51Speaker 02

  Maybe. I hadn't even thought about it like that.

• 17:55Rich Roll?

  Just a different version of that.

• 17:57Speaker 01

  You love community.

• 17:58Speaker 02

  I like community and I love making music with people. There's something really fantastic about singing with people. Like my last band was a lot of group singing.

• 18:09Speaker 01

  It wasn't you and somebody. It was like a band. And that's what you.

• 18:14Speaker 02

  And that's what I really liked.

• 18:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And you raised your two oldest children playing music with them, which is something my wife did as well.

• 18:22Speaker 02

  Oh, she did?

• 18:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So our two older boys are musicians, but like their whole relationship, like growing up, it was like they were like, would make music together all the time. And she will say like, that's her greatest joy. Yeah.

• 18:33Speaker 02

  If you have that thing, if you can do that, that's the thing you never want to let go of in your life. Whether you're just doing it with your family or in your house or, you know, I, I talk to people all the time that say, yeah, I used to play this and I used to do that. And I'm just like, man, don't, don't be a used to be because it's such a gift and it's such a great connection to, to something. It's just a great connect. So that's lovely to hear. Yeah. My kids and I have always played music together. You know, Jackson is an amazing drummer, guitar player, and Sarah too, a great singer, great songwriter. And yeah, when they were little, we just all.

• 19:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Jackson's not so much doing music these days though, right? Cause he's, he's becoming a big time star as an actor.

• 19:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. He's working more than I am right now, for sure.

• 19:25Rich Roll?

  He's doing good, man.

• 19:26Speaker 02

  He's doing good. He really is. He's on that show, Tell Me Lies.

• 19:29Rich Roll?

  I haven't seen any of the shows, but I did see Ambulance.

• 19:33Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 19:34Rich Roll?

  That movie rules. I love that movie. You're like.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  He's Michael Bay extravaganza.

• 19:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, that was great. Like I, I can't take credit for this, but Tyler and Trapper, my boys, they would call that a five star, two star, which I think is a great rating system.

• 19:49Speaker 02

  That's a great way to say it.

• 19:50Rich Roll?

  Of like two star movies that like you just, you can't not watch.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  That's fantastic.

• 19:54Speaker 02

  And there's Jackson, mostly laying in the back of the ambulance. He's the guy that gets shot.

• 19:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 19:59Speaker 02

  So he's in there.

• 20:00Rich Roll?

  He's the guy for like the whole movie. I mean, that's a huge part in that movie.

• 20:04Speaker 02

  It was really, yeah. He's had a kind of a career path the way I did. Like, we both started as musicians. He dropped out of college and said, I, you know, I can't do this. I said, well, you have to do something. So he went and started taking acting classes and pretty quickly started booking things. So he had some natural ability, which I think I must have had too, because it kind of happened that way for me as well.

• 20:28Rich Roll?

  Does he get the nepo baby stuff or Sarah?

• 20:30Speaker 02

  He hates it. Oh, if I say that to him, you know, he doesn't.

• 20:35Rich Roll?

  Listen, very creative, talented people raise their children in creative households. And, you know, there is a genetic piece to that.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  His credit, man, he's hustled. And, you know.

• 20:47Speaker 02

  Takes a lot of pride. And, you know, we don't have the same last name. So he

• 20:53Speaker 01

  He doesn't play it?

• 20:53Speaker 02

  He doesn't play it, even though I did get to be in an episode of his TV show, which was really fun. And, no, he gets offended by that comment.

• 21:05Rich Roll?

  What brought you into the rooms?

• 21:07Speaker 02

  Me?

• 21:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 21:08Speaker 02

  Oh, God. A boyfriend.

• 21:11Rich Roll?

  I've never heard your pitch.

• 21:12Speaker 02

  You've never heard my pitch?

• 21:12Rich Roll?

  No, no, no. Surprisingly, I've never, you know, seen you up. I've never been at a meeting where you did your whole deal.

• 21:19Speaker 02

  Well, you know, you know how we talk about we have lower companions, right? So I was in this relationship for the last two years of my using with this guy that I was just absolutely insanely crazy about. And we were just, you know, getting high all the time. And one day, he left me. He like broke up with me. And he had a bunch of friends in AA. And I knew about AA because it was kind of like in hindsight, some of these people that he knew would sort of watch out for us, you know, late night clubbing. And they'd make sure we weren't driving and, you know, all this stuff. So I kind of went to an AA meeting looking for him. I thought, well, I'm going to talk to his friends. So

• 22:02Speaker 02

  I walk into this AA meeting and all these people say to me, oh, you're finally here.

• 22:08Speaker 02

  We have a seat for you. And then they said to me, I said, his name was Spider.

• 22:12Rich Roll?

  Of course.

• 22:13Speaker 02

  I said, where's Spider? You know, he's blah, blah, blah. And as I was leaving, they said, why don't you come back tomorrow?

• 22:20Rich Roll?

  Maybe he'll be here.

• 22:21Speaker 02

  Maybe he'll be here.

• 22:22Rich Roll?

  Nice.

• 22:22Speaker 02

  So, and then, you know, and it wasn't, it was like a couple of years before I got sober. I knew, I knew. And I had kept trying to stop using. And because by this time I'm working in television, which means I have to get up early in the morning. And I was kind of trying to do both. I was having gigs at night and, and it was really not good. So I was trying to manage and control my drinking and using. And I, I couldn't do it. And so when I got to the rooms and I heard other people that couldn't manage, they could do a lot of other things, but they couldn't manage that. I knew I was in the right place. So.

• 23:03Rich Roll?

  And that happened really shortly before the whole Married with Children thing, right? Like you were like really new in sobriety at that time.

• 23:10Speaker 02

  I was four months sober when I got that gig. My first television job really was with Mary Tyler Moore. And this all came about from singing gig, and then an agent shows up, and then before you know it, I'm on this TV show. And, and I'm not sober. And I'm working, well, I guess we can break her anonymity now. She talked about it a lot. But yes, it was Mary. And she would talk on the set about being sober. And I was like so full of shit. I would just say, oh yeah, me too. But years later.

• 23:42Rich Roll?

  You think she was doing that for your benefit? Like hoping you were overhearing that?

• 23:45Speaker 02

  Maybe, because years later, I remember taking her to lunch and thanking her because she kind of was an Eskimo, whether she knew it or not, you know? And she planted a seed. And, um, yeah. So, but it took me another year or so to actually get sober after that seed was planted.

• 24:06Rich Roll?

  But 31, when you got sober?

• 24:08Speaker 02

  Thirty-one.

• 24:09Rich Roll?

  And you, Kurt, you were 31? I was 31 as well. I was 31 too.

• 24:13Speaker 02

  You were?

• 24:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 24:14Speaker 02

  Wow, magic year.

• 24:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 24:16Speaker 02

  Huh, interesting.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  So we're all, well, that's really interesting because we're like, our age difference is the difference in sobriety.

• 24:26Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean?

• 24:27Speaker 02

  I'm older, I'm six years older than you.

• 24:29Rich Roll?

  My wife's older than me, too.

• 24:30Speaker 02

  Really? How many years?

• 24:32Speaker 01

  Probably six years older than you.

• 24:33Rich Roll?

  She's four years older than me.

• 24:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. These smart guys, you guys are smart.

• 24:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, older, smart, powerful, strong women.

• 24:41Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 24:42Rich Roll?

  That's my, that's my thing.

• 24:44Speaker 02

  That's good, that's a good thing.

• 24:46Rich Roll?

  I don't want to overstate it, but I think of you as sort of a, like, you're this iconic sort of Doian of LA AA, like, you sponsor like, a lot of people, like, you're just, you're, you're very kind of like, well-known for, for your service and for being incredibly active. I know you've helped like, countless, countless women.

• 25:07Speaker 02

  And very anonymously, I mean, it's interesting you say that, I was just asked to be on a podcast that's about sobriety, and I just said, I had to say no. I had to say, you know, because I talk about it in a general way, and I'll use, you know, but I find it so, not that I don't want to be of service in a big way, I just don't feel, like, I want to advertise it, do you know what I mean? And I have, you know, I remember, I've started meetings in LA before, I think it's, that's kind of the deal. I just keep it very, it's kind of a sacred thing to me, you know, it saved my life, and

• 25:47Speaker 02

  it really gave me my life, and all those things I don't say lightly. So, it's lovely to hear that, but I sponsor people because it really helps me, you know, I mean, it's kind of the selfish way of being.

• 26:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah, selfish, selfless service.

• 26:04Speaker 02

  Unself-centered, yeah.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  Paradox.

• 26:06Speaker 02

  And, you know, so, but that's lovely to hear that, I am sort of, I've been, well, I'm from here, so, I'm here.

• 26:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 26:13Speaker 02

  This has been my sober, and I'll see people in the rooms that I used to get loaded with all the time, and they'll finally come in.

• 26:18Rich Roll?

  It is a bit of a conundrum, and I'm, I'm curious whether you've kind of butted up against this now being podcast host, like, when I wrote my book, and then when I started this podcast, you know, how do I speak about recovery without violating the tradition? And, you know, technically, every time I do, I'm violating the tradition, and so it's like, and my, my sort of definition or my relationship to that tradition of like, not advertising in print radio is like... I'm trying to, you know, create an awareness and a sense of possibility in people. Because I just know, like, I didn't know anything about it. And had I known a little bit about it, or had like a sort of parasocial connection with somebody who was sober, maybe I would have come in early.

• 27:03Rich Roll?

  And, you know, what is the cost benefit of like, talking about it? And everybody has a different kind of, you know, boundary with that. But it sounds like you're, you're, you have a more traditional one.

• 27:14Speaker 02

  A little bit.

• 27:14Rich Roll?

  But now you're, you're like, doing this podcast to us, and we're talking about recovery.

• 27:19Speaker 02

  I think it's semantics. You know, I don't, I'm a big believer in the tradition of not saying where my recovery is grounded in, you know? And, and that is basically because it was talked to me really early on, that if I, if I advert, not advertise, if I talk too much about where we actually do all this, and say, all of a sudden, I'm, I'm out, you know, I'm loaded again.

• 27:45Rich Roll?

  Then you're, right, right, right.

• 27:47Speaker 02

  That gives that bad name. To use the word recovery, I believe, is fine.

• 27:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 27:50Speaker 02

  To use the word sobriety is fine.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  But I also think, for me anyhow, the, the dividing line is discussing it in terms of experience, meaning there is not an agenda, there is not, this is the way to do it, there is not, go, it's, this happened to me, and this is what I did to get better.

• 28:10Speaker 02

  Right.

• 28:10Speaker 01

  Which is the foundation of, of, of, for us, of recovery. But it's also a way for me to keep it organic, and if, if asked, I'm honest. And, you know, I, I found over the years that the, my probably biggest service that I've done is

• 28:39Speaker 01

  For my own protection is letting people that, whether usually like work circumstances, letting them know about my recovery keeps me protected because that's one, two, five, six, eight people that I'm not going to feel comfortable using in front of. And it also, I say, this is what I'm doing and it's, I never ask what they're doing. And I, pretty much on every project I've worked on, there's been at least one person, usually more, who has either questioned me, who I've helped get sober, who I've, you know, steered in the right direction.

• 29:19Speaker 01

  And I see that as a form of service that I don't consider a breach of anonymity as much as it is, I do it to save my own ass to a certain degree. Yeah.

• 29:31Speaker 02

  Well, it's also the concept of attraction rather than promotion. I mean, I really, I feel like, you know, doing this in all my affairs, which is basically how I have to live my life, which is by spiritual principle. You know, you bring that into the world and it's amazing how attractive that is to certain people that are like, you know, I'll be on a job sometimes and I've just learned to extend myself, you know, to be a part of rather than separate from. And many people have asked me like, what, you know, and all of a sudden the conversation will be about, well, this is just how I've learned how to live my life. And it's not in some big grandiose way.

• 30:13Speaker 02

  It's just, you know, it's just how we do it, you know? It's how I have to do it because I need to stay connected to that kind of behavior. Because I could be the other way.

• 30:25Speaker 01

  So, yeah, no, I, trust me.

• 30:29Speaker 02

  I've been the other way.

• 30:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I get it.

• 30:42Rich Roll?

  For somebody who's listening to this or watching this, you know, who's sort of flirting with the idea of, you know, maybe I have a problem, or, you know, like, I really should kind of like, not do what I'm doing, but has fear around, you know, what AA is, or what recovery looks like, or, I mean, what is the message that you would like to convey to that person?

• 31:06Speaker 02

  Well, first of all, people that don't have a problem, don't ask that question. They don't say to themselves, do I think, maybe I have a problem? Most people that ask that question have a problem. And what I would say is that it's a very isolating disease. And so if you are alone in that, the very first thing you need to know is that you're not alone in that. And that, I know of my experience of first going to group recovery meetings, was the light bulbs going off of like, oh, I'm not, I'm not the only person that can't seem to manage a life without being medicated in some way, or some, you know?

• 31:50Speaker 02

  And there was huge relief in that. So what I guess I would say to somebody is, community is the opposite of addiction. So if you are feeling that way, reach out to some kind of community. You don't have, you can walk into a room like that and not even say anything. You can just sit there. Nobody's going to force you to do anything. That's one of the beautiful things about it, too, because we're all so isolated people, you know?

• 32:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, we're sitting in our pool of shame.

• 32:18Speaker 02

  We are, we all are.

• 32:19Rich Roll?

  Convinced that nobody could possibly understand just how unique our pain is.

• 32:23Speaker 02

  But it's very enlight, you know, to walk into a room of like-minded people in any circumstance. But that's what I would say to somebody that thinks they have an issue, is maybe call your local central office, there are a million of them, and find out where you might want to go. Or Zoom. I mean, the Zoom meetings are amazing.

• 32:44Speaker 01

  It's funny, I knew I wouldn't make my one o'clock meeting today. And I'm not just saying this because we're talking, I was listening to speaker tapes on the way here, because I didn't know how long it was going to take to get here. And it's a woman, and I've heard her before, and she always makes me laugh. And what I was struck by was, oh, yeah. I forget like how, how much fun and there is in that sense of relief, right? In that letting go of like, there's just this like, ah, and it, you know, and I think it's disconcerting sometimes for people who are new, cause like, it's not, nothing's

• 33:29Speaker 01

  funny, man. This isn't funny. And so, you know, some of the attraction for me is that this fear that, oh my God, my life's over, I'm never gonna have fun again. And that we, for me, I probably didn't have an honest, truly an honest sober moment of happiness or joy or sincere laughter until after I got sober, right? And where I was able to honestly take a look at myself and have some self-deprecating humor that wasn't about control or shame and things like that. And it's so dark and when people are laughing,

• 34:11Speaker 01

  but you just, and I just forgot like, oh shit, yeah, that's what, that's part of the deal, man. That's what we get to, we get to open up to.

• 34:19Speaker 02

  It's interesting how people, I think people also get a little freaked out when they hear that people with 38 years of sobriety still go to meetings.

• 34:28Rich Roll?

  This is the next thing. Yeah. Like you still do that? Like why, is it like, are you, do you think you're gonna, you know, so yeah, speak to that.

• 34:35Speaker 02

  What I've learned is that alcoholism, drug addiction is a, is in my brain, is in my thinking process. It's my lack of perception. It's my, it's my way of looking at the world that, I don't know, chicken or egg, I don't know what came first. I don't know if I was born this way. Or from, you know, years of childhood, uh-oh-ness. I just grew up fear-based. And so, the fact that I don't drink and use substances doesn't mean that my thinking process doesn't still need treatment, you know, because it's the way I look at the world, that if I'm not living...

• 35:13Speaker 02

  Present and by somewhat of spiritual principle, which means doing unto others is, you know, simple stuff. If I'm not reminded of that, I will very quickly go off the beam and think like everything's turning to shit. And the next thought after that is like, what's the use? And then the next thought is, I might as well get loaded. You know, that's down the road. You know, I'm not afraid of that every morning when I wake up. But it's the uncomfortability of living that way, of thinking that way. You know, where is if we stay present mind, you know, right here, right now, everything's fine. But I forget it. Like, I'll remember that right now. I'll leave this room and I'll forget it. That's why I still go to meetings.

• 35:58Speaker 02

  That's why people still go to meetings. And when I say living by spiritual principle, people get a little like, you know, because there's a lot of God talk around what we do. It's a spiritual principle of your own understanding. It's whatever, it's whatever, you know, the universe is clearly bigger than we are. It's all you have to know is you're not it. Something greater than you.

• 36:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah. The group who has figured out a way to stay sober longer than you can be your higher power. Anything, it is a, it is a power greater than you.

• 36:28Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 36:30Rich Roll?

  But people do get really caught up in that. And I think beyond that, it's the community piece. It's the connectivity piece, like connection being the opposite of addiction. And the service piece, like at some point, it's like, what can I, what can I contribute to this? How can I give it back? Because that's what nourishes me and gives my life meaning.

• 36:48Speaker 02

  It's kind of like, remember when you first had kids? I don't know for you, but for me, I was so relieved that I could think about something other than me, being a self-centered actor, who's also an alcoholic. I mean, it was just so much about me. So, you know, the gift of sobriety was suddenly, it wasn't all about me. And the gift of having children was also like, oh, I get to think about them. I don't have to worry about me so much. And there's something so freeing about that, you know, and so not, you know, it's so boring to think about yourself all the time. Right? I mean, really?

• 37:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It is an obsession of the mind.

• 37:25Speaker 02

  Oh, my God. This is crazy.

• 37:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah. We get so tired of ourselves. I have a feeling Kirk gets caught up in his own mind about himself here and there. Oh, occasionally.

• 37:36Rich Roll?

  You guys met in recovery, I presume, yeah?

• 37:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, we actually met, you know, the sister program in Al-Anon. We met in Al-Anon. Because at the time we met, I was going through a divorce with my second husband, who, God love him, just passed. He, he had struggles. He couldn't maintain his sobriety. And there came a point in that marriage where I had my two little kids and we had to go our own ways. So I didn't do anything about that marriage till somebody said, "You should go to Al-Anon." So I went to Al-Anon and learned how to live with that, sort of, and realized I didn't really want to live with that.

• 38:22Speaker 02

  And so I was going to Al-Anon and he was there for a totally different, well...

• 38:27Speaker 01

  No, I had a marriage, I was married briefly for about a year. And that marriage ended and went to Al-Anon. And then I realized that that's where all the really attractive women were. So that became my primary program for about, you know, two years.

• 38:45Rich Roll?

  All of whom have needs that need to be met.

• 38:48Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  And I've started that program again. Because I, you know, it was, it's a great, it's a great tools. It's the handbook, right? But I found the meeting, it's, it's a, it's online, it's a

• 39:04Speaker 02

  Hybrid.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  Hybrid meeting. And the meeting that we met at

• 39:09Speaker 02

  Is still going.

• 39:10Speaker 01

  In Hollywood, yeah.

• 39:11Speaker 02

  Twenty-four years ago.

• 39:12Speaker 01

  Twenty-four years ago.

• 39:13Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 39:13Speaker 01

  And it's still going on. And it's

• 39:16Rich Roll?

  So wait, when did you guys first start dating?

• 39:19Speaker 02

  2001.

• 39:20Speaker 01

  2001.

• 39:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 39:21Speaker 02

  Got married in 2004.

• 39:23Rich Roll?

  That's when Julie, that's right, I mean, mid-2000 was when I started dating Julie. And I was coming off a short marriage, a short previous marriage.

• 39:31Speaker 01

  You had marriage as well, that's right. That's right. I forgot about that.

• 39:34Rich Roll?

  Mine only, mine didn't make it past the honeymoon, but, you know.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, that's right.

• 39:39Speaker 02

  His kind of didn't really, he was just acting as if.

• 39:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, yeah, and she, and she's a lovely one. And she is also passed recently, but she was a lovely woman. And we were just, both of us were like, "What?"

• 39:53Rich Roll?

  That's so funny.

• 39:55Speaker 01

  She, I saw her at that meeting and I, obviously, I knew who she was and And you know, there was a little bit of hey, and but I wouldn't ask her out because I didn't have a job.

• 40:04Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 40:05Speaker 01

  And uh, and then

• 40:07Speaker 02

  I wouldn't have gone.

• 40:08Speaker 01

  And then I got a job, I got my first writing gig, and, and then I didn't see her. She, for like six months, right? Seven months?

• 40:15Speaker 02

  I was taking the kids to soccer.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  She had soccer on Saturday morning, so I didn't see her. And then she showed up one Saturday, and I was like, you don't, you don't do it now, man. And I asked her to coffee, right?

• 40:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then I brought my sponsor on our first date because I had such a bad picker.

• 40:32Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 40:33Speaker 02

  I mean, I really had a history of not great choices.

• 40:37Rich Roll?

  Like bad boys, spider, spider types?

• 40:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, kinda pretty much, and, or, or really like, yeah, broken, just kinda broken. I mean, not that Kurt was completely not broken, but, so I brought my sponsor to our first coffee date, and I remember in the middle of the coffee date

• 40:53Speaker 01

  Hardcore Alanon.

• 40:54Speaker 02

  Hardcore Alanon, she reaches over to me, she goes, he's okay, and she left.

• 40:58Rich Roll?

  How did you handle the fact that she brought her sponsor to your first date?

• 41:01Speaker 02

  She knew her, he knew her.

• 41:02Speaker 01

  I knew her sponsor from that meeting, and, and I thought she was great, and I totally got it, and I was kinda glad she was there, because, you know, I wanted to make sure that this all made sense, too. So, the fact that, you know, she got the okay, I was like, alright, I guess this is okay.

• 41:19Speaker 02

  It was such an interesting date, wasn't it? Like a coffee date, because with a sober person, like, I'll never forget, he opened up about himself in so many intimate ways, like, right away. Like, this is who I am, this is where I've been, blah, blah, blah. And I thought, wow, that's, I mean, I was glad to get all the information, but, you know, I've since, like, sponsored girls that go on dates, and my, my main thing to them is like, don't, don't say everything right away, like, just, you know.

• 41:46Rich Roll?

  What's great about it is that, you know, Kurt presents in a very specific way. So you get the bad boy exterior, you know, you have the sweetness on the inside, and, you know, there's some, there's some rough stuff in there, too, but, you know, he's fundamentally like a genteel person, right?

• 42:02Speaker 02

  Completely.

• 42:03Rich Roll?

  But you get to, but he, but he looks like, he looks like a spider.

• 42:05Speaker 02

  Oh, he absolutely does. It's like, which is the perfect combo for me. I like rough around the edges, and put a sweetheart inside. He's all that.

• 42:15Rich Roll?

  Tell me more about, like, why you felt like you couldn't ask her out until you had a job?

• 42:21Speaker 01

  You know, I was a struggling artist for so long. I started out as an actor and I moved out to L.A. and then that didn't happen. And then I went back to New York to study with my mentor, became a Meisner teacher and a theater director, and then I went back and got my MFA. Like, I had this very circuitous path. And I was in L.A. and I had been focusing on writing. And I really had a sense that that's what I was supposed to do. And I had enough sobriety under my belt and I felt like I'm on the right path. And even though I was starving and didn't have a dime to my name, I just felt like I was doing the right thing.

• 43:06Speaker 01

  But my whole thing was, I just want to tell people what I do in one sentence. That was all I wanted, to say, "I'm this." So when I got the... My first gig was on The Shield as a staff writer. And I got the gig and I started getting paid. For me, it wasn't about the money as much as the fact... Yeah, it was great to be able to pay rent, but it was, "Oh, fuck, I can tell people that I'm a writer now."

• 43:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And a real writer. Not a writer in the aspirational sense of, "I'm a guy at Starbucks with my laptop."

• 43:42Speaker 01

  Exactly. I just... I couldn't have that conversation. I would just tell people, "I'm a fucking plumber." I just couldn't have that conversation with people anymore. So I was able to say, you know, when she said, "What do you do?", I could say, "I'm a writer." And, you know, followed up with an actual job description.

• 44:02Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 44:03Speaker 01

  And it wasn't like I felt like she... It was me, right? It was my stuff that wouldn't allow me to engage somebody who I thought was a significant human being and it had nothing to do with notoriety or... It was just like, I knew she was a mom, I knew she had kids, I knew she was an adult, you know? And I just knew that I had to show up and at least have a sense of self-worth and esteem that would allow me to engage, honestly.

• 44:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you could stand on your own two feet and look her in the eye and feel, yeah, like, you know, I totally get that. But it is, it is funny because you're like a plumber. I mean, I think it was probably something like 2003 or 2004 when I first met you or you started showing up at Sasha's and you said you lived across the street, but I was like, who is this guy? Like, is he like a carpenter? Like, you know, like a semi-homeless guy or whatever? Like, I think you may be like your first or second year on the Shield. I had no idea you were a writer.

• 45:03Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 45:04Rich Roll?

  For a long time.

• 45:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 45:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 45:07Speaker 02

  Because we don't talk about that in the rooms, which is the other great thing about it.

• 45:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, most people, to this day, like, I pull up, the Uber driver pull me up to our house and he'll look at me and go, "You live here?"

• 45:23Speaker 01

  You know?

• 45:24Rich Roll?

  That has to be, like, that never gets tiring, though, I'm sure, right?

• 45:29Speaker 01

  Now, I just, now I wait for it. You know, now I'm like, "Hey, ask me."

• 45:34Speaker 02

  I think you look like a very...

• 45:36Speaker 01

  But you know what I mean, yeah.

• 45:37Speaker 02

  Hollywood dude.

• 45:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:39Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 45:39Speaker 01

  Or they'll just assume I'm in music.

• 45:42Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right.

• 45:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that's the next, you know, because I guess that's the, you know...

• 45:48Speaker 02

  That's the hair and the tats of it all.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  That's the cover photo of it all.

• 45:52Rich Roll?

  Well, the other ripple in your relationship, you know, not only are you both in recovery, I mean, that's one thing I don't have, my wife has no problem with, you know, addiction issues at all, so I don't share that with you guys. But you guys also, like, collaborate and work together. And so it's very, you know, integrated or enmeshed. And so how do you keep that, like, healthy with healthy boundaries and, you know, make sure that, you know, the relationship doesn't kind of descend into something transactional?

• 46:25Speaker 02

  Well, we actually, the only project we seriously worked together on was Sons. And we learned a lot. I mean, there were some bumpy, bumpy bumps. I mean, I had to learn, for me, the boundary of, "He's my boss." And so I don't have, you know, our marriage is very much about...

• 46:47Speaker 02

  Open communication, you know, sort of like, you know, we speak on things that might not be that comfortable or whatever. But as a boss, you know, I would open my mouth too much and just say like, well, why am I doing, you know, I'd come home and want to talk about the acting. We both loved doing it and I'd want to say, well, why did you write this? Or why did, you know, just like really inappropriate stuff. As an actor, my job is to interpret what I'm given. That's my job. And it's not to tell the person that's given me what to interpret, like that they should change it or do something, you know? That's not my job.

• 47:22Speaker 01

  We had to get a little help.

• 47:23Speaker 02

  We had to get some help with it.

• 47:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:25Speaker 02

  And then we ultimately kind of didn't talk about it when we came home. That's what we tried. Thank God we had three kids. So we could shift focus. But I think overall, we did really well.

• 47:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, we did. I think, and we were excited.

• 47:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, we were both excited.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  We really wanted to work together and it was a perfect project and it was really cool. And then at one point, it was, there was some comment about, that suggested that you weren't in the episode enough.

• 47:51Speaker 02

  Oh, is that what I said?

• 47:52Speaker 01

  And I was like, and I, and I was like, what? And, you know, and then, and then after that, we're like, we should get some rules. Yeah. You know, and we did. We went, we, we had a mutual therapist and we, we chatted about it. And, um, but you know, here's the deal. We also know that we both love what we do. And we, we talk about it not because we have to. We talk about it because experientially, it's, it's very fulfilling for us. You know, we learned that, oh, it's okay to, to talk about the experience in a, what I'm getting out of it kind of way. And we, you know, we, we sort of figured it out, how to, you know, get it on track, I think.

• 48:37Speaker 02

  It was kind of funnier sometimes to watch the other actors responding to the fact that like Kurt would write me a sex scene and they couldn't quite understand like how to, you know, but we were very able to separate personal from business. I mean, we're actors and writers, so we like. You know, it's not some voyeuristic weird thing, which is, I think, some, like Kurt would tell this story about Jimmy.

• 49:05Speaker 01

  Jimmy Smits was so, like, who's the sweetest human being?

• 49:08Speaker 02

  Sweetest.

• 49:09Speaker 01

  And very, super respectful and...

• 49:11Speaker 02

  And he was a love interest of mine on the show.

• 49:14Speaker 01

  And I wouldn't, it's not like I would show up on set for the sex scenes, but it would be like, you know, I'd be on set and Jimmy would just get wholly uncomfortable. So I realized, okay, that's not...

• 49:25Speaker 02

  And we weren't.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, and we were.

• 49:26Speaker 02

  We were fine.

• 49:27Rich Roll?

  You were, you were okay.

• 49:28Speaker 02

  We're just doing work.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  You know.

• 49:29Rich Roll?

  But you need him to show up authentically, right? So you had to skedaddle.

• 49:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I just gave him space so he would, you know, because I didn't, you know, and I, and look, I get it, and we, at that point, we'd been doing it long enough where it was, you know, you might have, it didn't matter, you know, it didn't matter what you were doing, you know?

• 49:47Speaker 02

  Well, I think when you come from the craft point, like, you were studying to be a teacher and studying to be an actor, so he understands that all that stuff is very mechanical and choreographed, you know, it's not what it ends up being and, you know, what people are responding to.

• 50:03Rich Roll?

  How do the tools of recovery come into play in, like, navigating conflict in your relationship and then also, like, in parenting?

• 50:12Speaker 02

  I can speak to that. I can say that, you know, the traditions that we live by are what's best for the whole, right? So I always look at our marriage as there's him, there's me, and then there's the marriage. So, and the family. And so decisions are based, basically, on what's best for the whole, which that's where I think the tools of recovery actually work really well. You know, we both want our way, you know, we're, we're, we're humans, we all want our way. But then ultimately, if there's a, a conflict with that... I know for me, my thought process goes to what's best for everybody. You know, it's like, okay, you know, a simple example would be, you know,

• 50:57Speaker 02

  are we going out to dinner or are we having dinner at home? I want to go out to dinner. I want to have dinner at home. Well, you know what? The kids haven't been over for a while and blah, blah, you know, whatever. So let's all have dinner at home, whatever it is. So I think that's where recovery tools kind of come in. Also, we, this is one of the things I love about my marriage. I mean, I love a lot of things about my marriage, but there's a lot of accountability for bad behavior that happens pretty quickly. Like, you know, if he's being an asshole, he'll tell me that like within five minutes. And or, you know, there's a lot of accountability for each one of our own parts. You know, if I'm being really selfish about what it is that I want and I recognize it,

• 51:42Speaker 02

  I'm able to say to him, hey, I'm being, I'm not being okay. I'm really sorry I did that.

• 51:47Rich Roll?

  But the big piece is being able to hear that and and not be reactive, right? Like, how can you receive that kind of feedback and like processes? And not like escalate some kind of conflict?

• 51:58Speaker 02

  Well, usually with us, I find, well, I find with him, he's, he, I don't have to say to him, hey, you're being like, why are you being so non-communicative or why are you, why, why are you shutting me out? Or why are you, you know? He notices it. I don't even almost have to say it, you know? Or if I do have to say it, he takes it. He receives it. You know, the thing about being an examined person is that you have to have a certain understanding of your faults, your weaknesses, your strengths, you know? So when somebody says to you, and you know, you're a reclusive person, somebody says to you, hey, man, you've disappeared. Where are you? Hello?

• 52:43Speaker 02

  If you have any self-awareness, you know that that's your tendency. And you're then able to say, hey, you know what? I think you're right. I've, I have been doing that. We don't rectify it right away. It just means like, you know, maybe we're gonna hang out and watch a movie together instead of just going off in our separate worlds. Does that make sense?

• 53:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I get it. I get it. I think marrying that to this idea that self-awareness is huge, but also self-awareness will avail you nothing, right?

• 53:10Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 53:11Rich Roll?

  Unless you actually marry it to some kind of contrary action.

• 53:14Speaker 01

  I think that's where

• 53:15Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 53:16Speaker 01

  our individual recovery comes into play too, because we both do the work we need to do to move ahead spiritually.

• 53:24Speaker 02

  Individually.

• 53:25Speaker 01

  And we've had some crunchy times, man.

• 53:27Speaker 02

  Big.

• 53:27Speaker 01

  Really crunchy times. And there was, and I talk about it sometimes from the podium, which is, there's, you know, money, property and prestige, you know, became my higher power. And, and I always say that money, property and prestige is fantastic. Like, it's fantastic to have a big life, but if your sense of spirituality, or God, whatever you want to call it, if it doesn't proportionally get as big, you lose your way. And that happened to me, and, and I was in a dark hallway for a good five or six years. And knowing the whole time that the only way back was the way we know how to get back.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  And it wasn't until I kind of crashed and burned, you know, on professionally, emotionally, psychologically, you know, relationship-wise, that I was willing to sort of go, I'm at sea. And

• 54:28Speaker 02

  And I wouldn't let go.

• 54:30Speaker 01

  And she wouldn't let go.

• 54:31Speaker 02

  He was

• 54:32Speaker 01

  No, like she, yeah.

• 54:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. I was like, you know, I'm not a quitter.

• 54:35Speaker 01

  She, but she also had enough of her own recovery to go, this is

• 54:41Rich Roll?

  This is his problem, not mine.

• 54:42Speaker 01

  This is that motherfucking stuff, not me. And, and, and I'm grateful that

• 54:47Speaker 01

  Most women would not have stuck around. Yeah. And to suddenly then be willing to, you know, work a program like I worked when I walked in the door, you know? And, you know, our mutual friend of ours, Jeff, is, you know, was the guy that was, was my confidant, even when I was in the dark hallway. I was smart enough to bring in one sober brother that knew everything. And he would always say, hey, maybe we should do some work around that. I'd be like, yeah, yeah, that's a great idea. And not do it. And then when I became willing, he was there and said, yeah, let's do it. And became willing to do that work five years ago now.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  And, you know, and all, you know, and look, I'm, everything

• 55:37Speaker 01

  that brought me to that place is still very much, you know, on the table. But now I have a new perspective. And to bring it back to your point, I lost sight of the greater, you know, the greater good. And, uh, cause I was so self-absorbed. And now being able to actually be present. Um, and the pandemic, I know it was brutal, but it was probably the biggest spiritual

• 56:11Speaker 01

  opportunity for me in that it cleared everything off the table. Everything. And it was just me and my primary relationships. You know, I was, I became willing to do the work and, uh, and find it again. And, uh, and so grateful and, and I'm in love with you like I've never been in love with you.

• 56:33Speaker 02

  Wow, you sang that on the podcast.

• 56:35Speaker 01

  112 years of marriage, you know?

• 56:37Speaker 02

  I know, it's been a fucking long time.

• 56:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:40Speaker 02

  Well, it's kind of like what you were talking about. I listened to your episode with Esther Perel. She's talking about how you, you can remarry the same person. Do you know what I mean? Like you, you know, there's people, I mean, I've had three marriages with three different people, but you can also have three marriages within years, one marriage, you know? It kind of, you just have to keep.

• 57:00Rich Roll?

  The whole thing has to grow. It's an evolution. It is. It requires constant investment. And, yeah, you go through different stages with it. But that re-committal process, I mean, I'm sort of in sort of an analogous, you know, kind of journey with this myself. And just to kind of take what you shared out of abstraction into, you know, kind of something that, you know, maybe the audience can understand. I mean, basically... Please do. Yeah, right. I hope we're making sense. Allow me to project onto you. Make sense of what I'm saying. Yeah, no, I mean, I know you and I get it. But, you know, tell me if this is like, if this tracks. I mean, essentially, you're this aspiring writer and then, you know, you get this staff

• 57:43Rich Roll?

  writing job and you parlay that into a showrunner gig where you create this show, Sons of Anarchy, and it just explodes. Like, it's a phenomenon. Like, it is just, you know, larger than life. Like, the fan base for that show is insane. Like, I texted Kurt, I was on in the East Coast and I was at the train station in, at like Penn Station in New York City, waiting to board this train to go down to DC. And there was a businesswoman, very like, you know, looked, you know, like accountant type, like woman, and she was holding her iPad and she's watching Sons of Anarchy in the like, big hall, you know, like, standing up, holding it, you know, like, and I was like, dude. And, I mean, a huge women fan base for this show, too, which is sort of interesting, and that's a whole other discussion.

• 58:25Rich Roll?

  But, anyway, the point being, this is a phenomenon. And, not to say that it went to your head, but like, this idea of power, property, and prestige, it is an intoxicant, right? And now you're off to the races and what are you gonna do next? And this is your moment and how am I gonna build upon this? Absolutely. And so, that's when the self-obsession kind of enters. And you lose sight of, A, how you got to that place, like, all the tools that created the individual who was capable of like, manifesting and executing on all of this. And the casualties being all the people that you care about the most. Who are knocking on the door saying, "Hey, Kurt, like, remember us?" Or like, "Where are you?" And you're like, "I'll get to it."

• 59:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You know, "I'm too busy." You're not going anywhere. And then, you know, and that will play out until you reach a certain point where the pain is sufficient enough to course correct on some level. And I would say that, you know, in my case, like... I mean, this thing is, you know, I never thought I would be a successful person, you know, be able to rub a couple pennies together. And, and I was coming out of financial wreckage and acting out of like urgency and PTSD. And that translated into workaholism. And then it's just like, you gotta keep it going, you know? And kids get older and they're gone. And then suddenly you're looking across at your wife and you're like, wait, who are you? You know, and she's like, I'd been here. I'm waiting for you, you know? And we're in that process of like, how do we reconnect?

• 59:54Rich Roll?

  And how do we remarry each other and enter this new stage? And as somebody who also, you know, prefers to be reclusive and is intimacy avoidant, you know, like, it's like scary, right? Like, well, if she knows who I am, like, this isn't gonna work, you know?

• 1:00:11Speaker 02

  I think we've just parlayed into our podcast.

• 1:00:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah. We just make one for the whole thing. But, uh, but anyway, I guess what I'm saying is like, I can, you know, it's like, the facts of your experience are different, but I can relate to the emotional journey that you've been on. And so, so, you know, what was the, the kind of moment where you realized like, hey, I've, I've put all the things I care about most at risk for these things that society, culture at large is like rewarding me for? And when do you figure out that that is like an empty promise in comparison to the things that really matter?

• 1:00:48Speaker 01

  I think for me, the moment was, um, you know, I, I knew I was in the hallway and I knew there was not an attractive or, um, uh, uh, half solution out of the problem. And what happened at, at Fox then slash Disney, you know, I, you know, I, I set all those fires, I watched them burn, I warmed my hands by them and I, you know, in hindsight, it was inevitable and...

• 1:01:22Rich Roll?

  Basically started, basically like...

• 1:01:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, so people understand, right?

• 1:01:25Rich Roll?

  You parlay Sons of Anarchy into this other show, Mayans, right? And you co-create this with Elgin James. And I don't know the details of what happened, but basically you implode... ...that thing and and John Landgraf, who was always your champion at FX and like kind of this compadre who had shepherded your career was like no moss and kind of kicks you to the curb.

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I had already made the decision to hand the show off to Elgin for the third season because I I wanted to do other things outside of the motorcycle genre. And but my my intention was not to completely unplug. And so I I got called into John and Dana's Dana Walden, who is now the head of President of the world. President of the television, called me in and and I'm so naive or so, I guess, not naive, I'm so arrogant that I thought I was being called in for a season three pickup. And I walk in and there's and I notice these like dudes in suits in the hallway and I'm

• 1:02:30Speaker 01

  like, they don't look like executives. And I got into the room and I just felt the tone. And I was like, oh, fuck, I'm pesky and wise guys right now. I'm gonna get whacked. And I did. And and I will say this, John, who, you know, we our careers sort of came up, we came up on the same trajectory and we both, I believe, were, you know, had the similar struggles and and and we both, he was a mentor and the show helped put him on a trajectory. And I would say that John and I are probably better friends now than we've ever been. And when I had some clarity about everything, I was able to go to lunch and essentially thank him.

• 1:03:15Rich Roll?

  Like recently, right?

• 1:03:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Because that was the bottom. I had it had to hit me at that level that got my attention because my lack of connection to my family, right, my distance from my wife and my kids, none of that was getting my attention. What got my attention was, you know, we don't need you anymore. And that was the thing that brought me to my knees where I could suddenly be vulnerable enough and aware enough to look around and go. Oh shit.

• 1:03:49Speaker 02

  Well, I'd like to just chime in too, because we were still there. He, at a certain point, while this all was going on, before the Mayans thing, he also had tried to leave the marriage. He was not sure he wanted to be in the marriage anymore. So there was that personal piece to it. And so it was kind of a sequence of events that then that was the ultimate like, okay, because he, the marriage was then kind of working its way back up. And then he, that whole Mayans situation happened. And I think that the fact that, you know, we were all still there. We didn't go anywhere, you know? And, you know, when you have a partner and you know them well,

• 1:04:32Speaker 02

  and you can see what's going on, and it's really hard not to take it personal, but you just know that at their core, that's not who that person is. Like even when he was like screwing up on them, it wasn't the Mayans that he was screwing up. He just didn't really want to go that much. It's really all it was. He was done with money. But I just know that from my perspective, I could see him just trying to rip everything up, trying to rip everything up.

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  And what's interesting is that I had moved out for a little bit and, but came back and like, ultimately, for whatever, you know, I didn't know why I couldn't leave, right? And I told, you know, it was like, Esme was very young. And I was like, well, I have to stay for the kid. And that's, part of that is true. But the bigger piece of it is that I knew that that was a decision I needed to make, that I needed to do the work. So I truly understood what it is I was feeling to make that decision, not make it out of fear or self obsession. That's the awareness I had and began to do the work, thinking, all right,

• 1:05:48Speaker 01

  this will give me this.

• 1:05:49Speaker 02

  The answer, a clear answer.

• 1:05:50Speaker 01

  I'll get a clear answer. What I realized is the reason I never left or couldn't truly leave is because. I wasn't supposed to, do you know what I mean? And to be able to come back, I don't know if you have this experience, but we have the same fight over and over again.

• 1:06:08Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:06:08Speaker 01

  It's the same fucking argument we have and it'll depending on, you know, but it's never.

• 1:06:14Speaker 02

  We're never like detrimentally arguing.

• 1:06:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:17Speaker 02

  We're not like.

• 1:06:17Speaker 01

  You know.

• 1:06:18Speaker 02

  You know, it's so interesting to me what we, you know, when we have a partner and what it is that we're supposed to learn, right? So I know what I'm supposed to learn is I have a huge abandonment wound that when we went through all this shit, right? This is the mirror, you know? Are we talking about your life now?

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  Can you, can you take what I just said and make it more clear for the listener?

• 1:06:42Speaker 02

  So when we went through all this transition, I had to real, I really got an opportunity, that's what I'll look at it now, as much as it sucked, to look at all that and to sort of heal some of that to the place where, because I think ultimately in a relationship, you have to know you're going to be okay no matter what. You're going to be okay whether you're with this marriage or not. And I had such a big, you know, my parents dying young, people, I've lost too many people, you know, just all that shit. Yeah, here we go again. Yeah, here we go again. And it was a great opportunity as my marriage was somewhat threatened. We went through that period of like, do we or don't we or ba ba?

• 1:07:24Speaker 02

  And man, it was painful, but I got to the other side of it to where when it finally did come to where it was supposed to be, like you said, which was that we're supposed to be together. I really felt like, oh my God, this was invaluable. I learned so much about self-love, self-care. I'm okay no matter what. I'm not that ugly little fat girl that my dad used to berate. You know, all the shit. I just kind of believe that things don't happen. Randomly.

• 1:07:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:58Speaker 02

  I think that that is like exactly what I was supposed to learn.

• 1:08:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like you're the nugget, the lesson, the beauty for you is having to confront those issues and reach for a deeper, you know, sort of surrender.

• 1:08:12Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:08:13Rich Roll?

  And detach from whatever unhealthy, you know, kind of relationship you had with just being in a relationship, period, right? Like, hey, like, I'm confronting this. I have to overcome this fear and get to the place where I know I'm going to be okay either way, which then, of course, lands you, you know, in this place where you're a healthier person to be in that relationship. And you're doing, you know, a different version of the same thing, Kurt, at the same time. Like, it's, it's, it's an incredible thing.

• 1:08:39Speaker 02

  We tried to get away from each other. It just, we, it, it just wasn't.

• 1:08:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's also, you know, and I know you'll appreciate this and, and, and connect your own dots to it, but there's that sense of, I can't live any other way. Right? Like, I can't avoid my truth because I know I'll, I'll die either physically, emotionally, spiritually, artistically. Like, I have to seek my truth. And some people will not, do not want to do that work. And I get it. And to figure it out, they'll, they'll just get out and then, however long it takes, they're back in the same rhythm, in the same pattern.

• 1:09:24Speaker 01

  And I intuitively knew that if I didn't do this work, that I would be in, I would find myself in a similar situation, worse down the line, whether with K or with somebody. Like, I just knew it was going to fucking keep happening if I didn't seek what was happening and seek my own truth and, and, and truly have a sense of what the fuck was going on, that it wasn't going to get any better, you know? And what I talk about now a lot is the, the idea that, you know, I'm 64 years old, right? So. Cuando puedo mirarla como, "¡Dios mío, tengo tan viejo que aún tengo que hacer este tipo de trabajo",

• 1:10:08Speaker 01

  o puedo re-encadenarla y decir, "¡Dios mío, tengo 64 años y aún estoy dispuesto a desgarrar mis costillas y hacer el trabajo que necesito hacer". Y siempre digo esto, lo uso como ejemplo, pero Norman Lear, a los 85, volvió y como averiguó sus cosas de papá.

• 1:10:29Speaker 02

  Y volvió a la terapia.

• 1:10:31Speaker 01

  Y eso tuvo un impacto tan grande en mí. Y no recuerdo, tal vez dos cosas del documental, que me quedaron, fue como, aquí había un tipo que buscaba y estaba dispuesto a hacer eso. Y ahora trato de mirar eso, no de como, "Oh, no puedo creer que todavía estoy trabajando en esto", a "¡Dios mío, todavía estoy dispuesto a trabajar en esto".

• 1:10:53Speaker 02

  Y a crecer.

• 1:10:54Speaker 01

  Y a crecer.

• 1:11:09Rich Roll?

  El universo los ha unido para su propio crecimiento individual y evolución, ¿verdad? Y cuando puedes involucrarte en tu relación desde esa perspectiva, en lugar de que esta persona me esté deteniendo o es mi enemigo, pero en realidad es mi maestro, es el espejo que necesito ahora para reflejar todas las cosas que en realidad necesito trabajar, y luego aceptar eso en lugar de escapar de eso.

• 1:11:32Speaker 02

  Y ese es el gran retrospecto que sacas de ello, no que no sea raro en el medio. Quiero decir, sabes, estamos haciendo que suene como que todo fue muy altruista y todos llegamos a este gran lugar y fue fantástico. No puedo decirte lo oscuro que fueron las noches, ¿sabes lo que quiero decir? Donde tú solo dices, "¡Dios mío, soy un humano que no puede sostener esta cantidad de lo que sea".

• 1:11:54Rich Roll?

  I think the other thing or piece that I wanted to kind of underscore is you engaged in this dynamic with all of these tools that you've learned over decades of commitment to your recovery. But the sort of particular acute crisis that you faced, Kurt, is not unique to somebody who suffers from alcoholism. It's a predicament of being in a human body, and I think it's particularly acute for men, right? We're raised in a culture in which our value is measured in accordance with our job and our salary and the trappings of the material world. And you incorporate that over the course of a lifetime, and then you're in a position

• 1:12:38Rich Roll?

  where you're kind of enjoying the fruits of that. It's not unusual for that to take up a disproportionate kind of weight in terms of your ego. Some people can sort of drink too much but be able to do it their whole life, so they never have to look in the mirror. And many people have success in the material world, and it's not quite problematic. So again, it's sort of like the gift of bottoming out on drugs and alcohol, that you are this extreme person, so you can take that all the way to the edge and have that bottoming out experience so that you can then, okay, here's the next level of growth that's awaiting for me.

• 1:13:17Speaker 02

  Don't you think too, I mean, you're the physical dude, don't you think hormonally there is some kind of change that happens in men, well, women for sure, but also in men? That sort of decrease in testosterone or whatever it is that happens at a certain age that suddenly what was enough isn't enough? Or there's kind of like a desperation? I'm gonna say the word midlife crisis, but I hate to say that word because I remember when Kurt was going through some stuff, he hated if I would say. But I think that's hormonal, too, don't you think?

• 1:13:56Rich Roll?

  I don't know. I don't know if it's hormonal.

• 1:13:59Speaker 01

  I mean, yes, does that impact mood and all that stuff? But I think it goes back, I mean, to look, to bring it back to what we began the conversation about is that like money, property, prestige, all that stuff is great.

• 1:14:17Speaker 01

  But it's, it's, it's air, right? It doesn't have substance and it doesn't hold esteem, right? The esteem is like, and it's gone, like the headline and then it's gone. And where's the next?

• 1:14:30Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:14:31Speaker 01

  You know, and I experienced this coming into another project is that if that's not the fire anymore, if, you know, well, money was never the fire, but respect, prestige, like that was very important. Like I, I wanted, you know, artistically, I wanted to be recognized. But when that no longer holds the weight and it's not the, the, the fire underneath you, what is?

• 1:14:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:00Speaker 01

  And that's when you just go, oh, fuck.

• 1:15:04Rich Roll?

  You're lost at sea.

• 1:15:05Speaker 01

  You're lost. That's when you go, the, what I have to look at is to your point is taking a look at how I got here, right? And go, oh, the way I have to shift it now is it has to be about love and service, right? Like I am doing this now for love and service because I found that that is the only esteem that lasts, right? That is the only esteem and as, and every human being, but I, and I don't mean this to sound the way it is, but I think to your point, there's a certain amount that men, there's an expectation that, you know, we, you know, that esteem is very important, right?

• 1:15:48Speaker 01

  And it is the ultimate dopamine hit.

• 1:15:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Esteem meaning like the validation of others.

• 1:15:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:15:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And I think.

• 1:15:56Speaker 01

  Or a job well done.

• 1:15:58Rich Roll?

  Right. Of course. Like we want to feel like we're providing value in the world, but we want that recognition for that, right? Like, like so much of our value is tied up in like how we're perceived like in this culture. And I think to your credit, Kurt, like being able to recognize that in yourself, I mean, you know, you had these incidents that like really brought it up for you, but to step out, you know, outside of that, like, you know, have a trail and assess. Like most people, it's like, if. You tell like they did these studies with, you know, billionaires and millionaires. Like, what's your number when you're going to retire? Oh, it's 10 million if I get that. Or, you know, then they get it and they're like, well, you know, now it needs to be 50. You know, like it never ends, right? Like, this is the thing.

• 1:16:40Rich Roll?

  It's just, there's always another bend, you know, around the way. And we delude ourselves into thinking like, well, just it'll, it'll happen when I get around that next bend. And it's like pursuing it to the gates of hell and death, right? But to be able to go, hold on, like, no.

• 1:16:55Speaker 02

  Well, enough's enough at a certain point. It's like, how, you know, what is enough?

• 1:17:00Speaker 01

  And I didn't want to be like, I just remember, I just remember hearing an interview early on when I was a staff writer. And I don't, I don't honestly forget who the writer was, but it was a well-established writer. And he was so fucking miserable. And I thought, why is this guy like, how could he be unhappy? How could, and, and as I closed in on that sense of like, well, that doesn't mean anything anymore. I understood like, oh, I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to be the guy who has to go to work. And it just becomes like laborious. Like if I'm truly, you know, driven artistically to do what I do, I have to find that fire.

• 1:17:42Speaker 01

  And it, and if it's not the, the attaboys and the paycheck, what is it? You know? And it has to be about, well, here's an opportunity for me to be of service. What I do is of service. And, and how can I engage people and, and give them a sense of, of ownership of what they do? And, and really look at things through a completely different lens that, yes, it's my vision, but that if I don't open my eyes to how it impacts everybody else, there's no, you know, there's, there's no path, right?

• 1:18:17Speaker 02

  As entertainment, you know, that's a service job. Entertainment is a service job because. We're, we're providing, you know, emotional, whatever, humor, whatever it is for people. That's what we do.

• 1:18:32Rich Roll?

  I don't think that, yes, it's particularly acute for men, but it's not like it's a gender specific thing. I mean, but I think the difference in your relationship is you grew up, Katie, in this world, right? So it's been around you. It doesn't hold the same kind of like fascination and allure. Whereas for Kurt, it's like, you know, he traveled across the country and had a dream. It's like, oh, my God, I'm here, you know, like, and then it happened fast. Not fast, but it seems like.

• 1:18:56Speaker 02

  No, it did happen fast.

• 1:18:58Rich Roll?

  From, from, from, you know, getting the job at the Shield to Sons of Anarchy was a pretty compressed period of time, right? Yeah.

• 1:19:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. No, I always say, because I grew up around it. So this is like the family business. I just remember my father coming home exhausted. I mean, there was nothing glamorous really about it. I mean, it was just, unless I took my elementary school friends over to watch Dr. Kilde or A Man From Uncle being shot.

• 1:19:22Rich Roll?

  He was a director on those shows. That's pretty cool.

• 1:19:25Speaker 02

  That was pretty cool. Then it was like, oh, that's kind of glamorous. But, you know, other than that, it was just, you know, it's, it's, you know, and it's interesting to have kids going in it too, you know, and you're just like, I remember when they were little, letting them know every time I did not get the job. I did not want this to look like an easy, breezy, you just, you know, happens. And so I think they have a pretty realistic view of it because I grew up with it. I just grew up knowing, this is a gig. You know, this is not going to change my life.

• 1:19:58Speaker 01

  Well, Jackson's has that sense of every time a job is over, I'll never work again.

• 1:20:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:03Speaker 01

  We've given him that gift.

• 1:20:04Rich Roll?

  Because it is that, like Kurt, as somebody who came here hungry, right? And now you're raising kids in privilege. And it's sort of like, there's expectations that come with that and all of that. And like, this is the dilemma of success, right?

• 1:20:15Speaker 01

  It really is, especially in parenting, yeah.

• 1:20:18Speaker 02

  Well, and I also just want to say, as we're talking about this, money, power and prestige, you know, it's easy for us to say all that, coming from.

• 1:20:27Rich Roll?

  Hollywood elite people.

• 1:20:28Speaker 02

  Places where we have made some money and had some power. You know, if you're a person and you're listening and that is not your experience, you know, maybe you haven't achieved that thing that you thought was so, you know, it's easy for us to say all this, in other words, is what I'm saying, you know, it's because we have, we've achieved certain things that we set out to. And so. I don't want us to sound so like-

• 1:20:53Speaker 01

  No, but I think there's parallels, you know, regardless in terms of the arc of that with most folk, you know what I mean?

• 1:21:02Speaker 02

  Right, right. Indifferent, yes, absolutely.

• 1:21:05Speaker 01

  There's a version of this that makes sense for somebody that is pursuing something completely different, but still has, you know, an ambition or, you know, I believe-

• 1:21:15Rich Roll?

  But we're all looking for meaning, right? We're all in search of purpose in our lives. And so the message, regardless of how successful or not successful you are, is that the answer, as much as we want it to be found in property, power, prestige, these things, it ultimately isn't. And yes, it's convenient to say that as somebody who has that-

• 1:21:35Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:21:36Rich Roll?

  And it falls on deaf ears, like, yeah, for you, but not for me.

• 1:21:38Speaker 02

  Exactly, right.

• 1:21:40Rich Roll?

  And everybody has to have their own journey with that. But I guess the message really to somebody who lacks that and aspires to have that is that those things are good. Like, it's not like, oh, they're bad. But like, the deeper meaning and purpose of like, being in a human experience is not going to be found there. It will make other things in your life better and easier, but it's not going to provide the thing deep, deep, deep within you-

• 1:22:04Speaker 02

  Absolutely, right, for anybody.

• 1:22:05Rich Roll?

  -that is looking for answers, I guess.

• 1:22:07Speaker 02

  I always think money is about freedom. You know, it's convenience and it's freedom and, you know-

• 1:22:12Rich Roll?

  And it does provide you with that.

• 1:22:13Speaker 02

  It does, absolutely.

• 1:22:15Speaker 01

  And time, yeah.

• 1:22:17Rich Roll?

  In terms of like arcs, there also is like this other arc with Kurt, which is in his like, you know, spider version of himself. Yeah, I remember like way back when, you know, in the blogging era, and I think maybe we talked about this when you were on the show the first time, which was like back in like, when was that, like 2018?

• 1:22:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 1:22:37Rich Roll?

  You would get in all these scrapes and you would like do these tell-all blog posts where you were naming names and just like speaking out of school.

• 1:22:44Speaker 02

  Bad Boy.

• 1:22:44Rich Roll?

  Bad Boy Hollywood. Maybe that, Katie, made you fall more in love with them and like, here's the bad boy I was looking for. But, and there was something, you know, punk rock about that, like, look at this guy. He's the only guy who's unafraid to like call it as he sees it. And I'm sure that was a rush and- Then you had to start kind of like, you got the bill for that. Had to pay it.

• 1:23:07Speaker 02

  Stop pushing send.

• 1:23:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And then, you know, you're on Twitter and picking fights with people. And it's like, and then finally, like, that all disappeared. So clearly, you had some kind of, you know, comeuppance with that. And then, just to finish, kind of like, the arc part of it. Even in the wake of the John Landgraf, like, Mayans experience, you wrote this letter, right? Like, it was sort of a, you were defending your position, like, and kind of calling out where you thought, like, the way it was being characterized was unfair. Like, this is actually not what happened. Here's what happened.

• 1:23:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:23:40Rich Roll?

  And owning some aspect of it, but there was a self-defensiveness piece to it.

• 1:23:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:23:44Rich Roll?

  And now, here you are, on the other side of a sort of analogous experience with this latest project, The Abandons, which you, you know, created and wrote and, like, were there and made it all the way through most of the production of the first season. And, once again, you know, I've sort of been, I don't know the circumstances of this, but, you know, you've walked away from that project. But what's different is, there's no letter, there's no defensiveness, there's no angry name-calling blog posts or Twitter spats over this. Like, you've just, there seems to be, and I'm saying this as somebody who knows nothing other than, like, reading a Deadline piece and knowing you. To me, like, there's the evolution, like, the emotional maturity. And so, is this, you know, explained, like, that?

• 1:24:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. Look, I think, you know, I will say that there is, some of the exit language is still being negotiated, because it will come up, obviously, when the show premieres. And, you know, to what people already know, which is the old standard creative differences, is, you know, I had a, I had a great experience with my creative partners at Netflix. And for a year and a half, we were on a similar path. And, you know, and at some point in the production, I became aware that...

• 1:25:06Speaker 01

  Perhaps we were making two different shows and that my vision and the way I wanted to make it did not necessarily line up with what it is they needed for their platform. And, you know, I am a fully immersive eat, drink, sleep. I do not leave my work at home. I do not leave my work at set. Those characters talk to me all the time. I am on set all the time. I am, you know, probably to my own detriment, engaged. And I, when I became aware that

• 1:25:48Speaker 01

  my vision was not what the algorithm needed, I, you know, yes, it was hard. It was difficult to step away. But I also know that even if I wanted to or could, I don't think I could have written the show or created that show or continued to produce that show any differently than I was. Because I was not capable of now manifesting what it is their algorithm needed. And it was painful to, you know, to come to that decision and come to that end. But I, but I also know that I know myself well enough

• 1:26:33Speaker 01

  and I know what it is I do well and, you know, what's a good fit and what's not a good fit. And so I think the difference is coming out of this circumstance without any regret or remorse for my behavior, my actions, my creative input. Like, I feel pretty whole and clean about all of that. So as difficult as it was, that there's no, you know, there's no lingering sense of, you know...

• 1:27:14Speaker 01

  Damn, you know, and...

• 1:27:16Speaker 02

  Can I just say my perspective?

• 1:27:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're more angry than I am, though.

• 1:27:19Speaker 02

  No, I'm not. Well, I'm not angry right now. I would just say that, you know, Kurt went into that project really with the understanding that I want to do this differently than I've done things before, as we've, as he's talked about the lessons learned from the past. And he did that. I mean, he came into that project with the attitude and enthusiasm of love and service, of collaboration, all the things that, you know, perhaps that guy that was writing all the Twitter shit before was fists up in the air. He was not that guy. And I think he's handled himself, you know, it's just so great when you want to do things differently. You know, you know

• 1:28:01Speaker 02

  how people say to you like, well, this is just who I am? And you're just like, no, man, don't limit yourself like that. And so I watched Kurt really morph into what this, you know, we set an intention of this is how I want to do something, and he did it. And he did it. And so I think I'm just commending you on the way you handled it. And you're right, he has handled it without any of that rancor that happened before. No letters and no...

• 1:28:29Rich Roll?

  No, no arrows to shoot, or people to blame, or whatever. But I think it highlights this other thing, which is this tension between like commerce and art. Like your artistic integrity, like this is your superpower, right? Like your imagination, you're very protective, like you have a vision and you're not going to compromise. And the scruffs that you've gotten in seem to be kind of, you know, relevant to like somebody trying to encroach on that, right?

• 1:28:57Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:28:57Rich Roll?

  And you're in a collaborative medium, so that's inevitable.

• 1:29:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:29:00Rich Roll?

  But the reason you've been able to have this career is because you are so committed to that. You believe so strongly in like the specificity of your vision.

• 1:29:10Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:29:10Rich Roll?

  So this is what gives birth to all of these great things, and yet often, you know, becomes this Achilles' heel in a collaborative medium that's also commercial, right? And so Netflix, I mean, the one, like, it's not really a bar, but like the one little edge to like what you shared is like algorithm, right? Like, yeah, fuck you, algorithm, right? And but like, the algorithm is why, you know, this is why Netflix is Netflix.

• 1:29:33Speaker 01

  But here's the deal. And, and, and I mean this, I, this is absolutely being truthful with this, is that... You know, there will be a, you know, the writing was good, the acting was great, the directing was like, the pieces of it are all there. Now, I'm not doing the final third of it, which is post, where I pick the music, where I put it together, where I do the final rewrite. So it is not wholly, it is not my, my project. But, you know, I'm a guy who loves empirical data, right? The algorithm is driven by empirical data. So I'm not saying the algorithm is wrong. They may very well be right. Like, it's a,

• 1:30:16Speaker 01

  you know, most likely, the show that they end up putting together that fits that algorithm will be more successful than perhaps the more tangential, whatever show that I had intended it to be. I can come out of it with a sense of like, oh, that's a hard lesson that, you know, I've learned. And where is it that now, in this landscape, where is it that my kind of storytelling fits? You know, that is the lesson. And, or not the lesson, but that's the awareness, right? Yeah. And, but yeah, and I don't say that- I don't blame- I don't say that as a bad thing. You know, it is why they are who they are. And,

• 1:30:58Speaker 01

  and I mean that. It's like, that version of the show may very well do better than any other version that could have come out. And I can't, and also, it's their fucking money, right? So they can do whatever they want with it. So I really, you know, like, I, and I know that. Like, I had to take a step back and go, yes, that's not my show, but that may be a show that everybody wants to watch, you know? And that's, that's humbling, right? But it's true, you know? The algorithm isn't somebody's fancy. It's, you know, I've-

• 1:31:36Speaker 01

  I've seen the depth of the data.

• 1:31:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:39Speaker 01

  Fascinating.

• 1:31:40Rich Roll?

  Really?

• 1:31:40Speaker 01

  It's fucking fascinating.

• 1:31:42Rich Roll?

  They could basically tell you everything about who's watching what for how long and why.

• 1:31:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it was, it was amazing. We live in a culture that usually isn't driven by empirical data. You know, at least, you know, in some social and political realms.

• 1:31:58Speaker 02

  It's kind of like, who's to say what's right, what's wrong? It's all perception. It's like, you know, you might be right.

• 1:32:03Rich Roll?

  But having that, like, you know, entertainment is a service business. Like, you're here to serve audiences. The people who are paying the bills are saying, like, what you want to do isn't really in service of the audience in the way that we would like it to be. And being able to gracefully say, I get that.

• 1:32:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:32:17Rich Roll?

  You know, and not harbor resentment or, you know, give them the middle finger. And your daughter is in the project, right?

• 1:32:24Speaker 02

  Sarah's in it.

• 1:32:25Rich Roll?

  So it's like, yeah.

• 1:32:26Speaker 02

  And I have a little bit of a thing in it, too. And we'll see if we're still there.

• 1:32:31Speaker 01

  And look, here's the deal, then. Was I resentful? Was I, you know, was I hurt? Absolutely.

• 1:32:38Rich Roll?

  But you didn't do those things that you've done in the past. It's the action part.

• 1:32:42Speaker 01

  I can understand that those feelings don't last forever. They don't define me. And, again, knowing, doing, you know, digging in and looking at my part and going, okay, they didn't sting as deeply.

• 1:32:57Rich Roll?

  Did you, did you, uh, did you write the emails and just not hit send? Or like, what did you? I mean, I think this is like, there is a universal kind of lesson in this because we all run into similar situations in which, like, shit goes sideways and we want to blame other people. And we're reluctant to, like, look at our side of the street and all of that. So when you're like, I did all this work so that I didn't behave that way, like, for somebody who isn't in recovery or, you know, doesn't understand, like, kind of what that means, like, what is the, what is the, like, what did you do to kind of grow emotionally to handle it differently?

• 1:33:30Speaker 01

  I have a good team. I have a great, I have an agent that I love, and I have a great lawyer. And I'm able to go to them and invent and... And, and you know, now it's, it's very interesting. I was telling somebody the other day that, um, oh, he's telling Mike Shrink, we were talking about it. And I said that, I said, I'm pretty cool. I said, uh, and we, he knows my, he plays tennis with my lawyer. And I said, I, I just can't go to Michael about it because he gets more upset than I do now.

• 1:34:00Rich Roll?

  This is the most Hollywood thing ever.

• 1:34:01Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:34:01Rich Roll?

  It's like, I was asking you like, what is the emotional work that you, that you did that would be relatable to the audience? You're like, well, I called my lawyer and my agent, but then I, then my shrink talks to my lawyer. It's like.

• 1:34:11Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no. But meaning, meaning I went to people who could understand the experience and I threw up on them.

• 1:34:20Speaker 02

  And me too. Like, I got it. I mean, we all, you know, he processed it with the right people.

• 1:34:25Speaker 01

  So whatever you do, you have those confidants, those people that understand that you can then vomit on and, you know, and then let that go and try to look for some self-awareness and some acknowledgement of perhaps your part. And, and then, you know, steer the ship a little bit away from perhaps something that might result in an action that ultimately you regret or that sets you back even further.

• 1:34:54Speaker 02

  You know, to me, it, it kind of does go back to that recovery piece where, you know, we have to figure out our part. When you do step work, you have to figure out your part. That's how you release the resentment. So I think it works in all areas where you just are like, there's always your part. There's, there's always two. So I think once you've, once you get to the place where you can realize, okay, here's what I, you know, then you're able to not push send. You're able to write the email maybe or tell to somebody and just, you know, not.

• 1:35:26Speaker 01

  Sometimes I can't talk to her about it because she still gets more angry than I do, you know?

• 1:35:30Speaker 02

  Well, because it was, it's a beautiful piece of work that I watched a lot of time and investment and serious love going to. And so it was a bit.

• 1:35:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, pissed me off.

• 1:35:45Rich Roll?

  Well, yeah, you pour your heart into this thing and you're living and breathing it. And then they're like, thanks, but we'll take it from here. I mean, it's like, you're not human if you're not feeling the pain of that. And I'm sure it will be a challenge. Is it still coming out in the spring?

• 1:36:01Speaker 01

  Supposed to. We don't know. We don't know what's happening, really. Honestly, I've had, you know, I mean, as you say, I've had to detach myself. That was very easy because, you know, I had to detach myself. So, yeah, I think that's the plan. And, and, and look, my sense is that I, you know, it ebbs and flows. And, but I think to your point, and I heard you said that, as you said that, it was like, it was a beautiful experience. Yeah. And it was a beautiful piece of work. And it was a beautiful world. And, you know, yes, it didn't land or go the way I thought it would, or perhaps wanted it to, but I, I know all of that is true.

• 1:36:46Speaker 01

  And you still did it. And I still, you know what I mean? Yeah. So, I mean, I know on some level that seems like, oh, that makes it worse. But like, I also go, yeah, but I got, I got to fucking, I got to do that. Have the experience of it, yeah.

• 1:37:00Rich Roll?

  You got to express your vision and be true to your artistic sensibilities. And then you had the opportunity to grow by detaching your identity or your ego to this thing that you created and letting other people like put their fingerprints on it.

• 1:37:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, what he just said, that's what I did. That's right. That's exactly right.

• 1:37:19Rich Roll?

  Here's the other thing, like, we're in an interesting cultural moment and, you know, it's easy for a lot of people to like point fingers at people like yourselves. Oh, the Hollywood elite, like it's this monolith, right? And you represent like one, you know, ideology or something like that. And you're a, you're a whipping post for, you know, a lot of different ideas. But set against that, speaking of algorithms, like we're seeing these massive tectonic shifts in the media landscape and the movie industry is, you know, being impacted by this. And so, coming out of the pandemic, we see, you know, theater attendance plummeting and the, you know, explosion of the streamers and now kind of like the challenges that all

• 1:38:03Rich Roll?

  these streamers are having and trying to like make it this thing that seems like it should be profitable, but actually isn't unless you're Netflix. A lot of money being spent, a lot of movie stars doing television shows. It's all blended and like, is this a movie? Is this a TV show? Is it a limited series? Like, there are shows on right now that are extraordinary, like Michael Fassbender and the agency, based on that show La Bureau.

• 1:38:27Speaker 02

  Which is, the Bureau is amazing.

• 1:38:28Rich Roll?

  Incredible. Like, La Bureau is one of the best things I've ever seen.

• 1:38:32Speaker 02

  Me too.

• 1:38:33Rich Roll?

  And now, they're reimagining it for an American audience.

• 1:38:35Speaker 02

  Is it as good?

• 1:38:36Rich Roll?

  It's tracking very closely. Like, it's very, um, the fidelity to the original, you know, storyline is, is, is, is pretty clear. And there, you know, there's some flair, you know, it's, it's CIA and it's set in the, uh, the London office, so it has, and it's all British people that are doing it, and it's being done like, at such a high level. I haven't heard one person talk about this show. Like, and I'm obsessed with it. Like, I, I just think it's, my point being like, incredible talent, incredible projects. Are people watching this? Is this a business model? Is this working? And if it's not, like, that money's not gonna go elsewhere soon. And so, what is this augur for people like you that are in this ecosystem and in this

• 1:39:21Rich Roll?

  economy? Like, there's an uncertainty. Like, things are not the way they used to be.

• 1:39:26Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:39:26Rich Roll?

  And the way they were for a very long period of time. And I'm confident business models will get figured out. So on the one hand, it looks like there's more opportunities for creative people because there's so many projects going on, but the ability to actually like, make a living doing this has never been more precarious or difficult.

• 1:39:46Speaker 01

  I, here's my prediction.

• 1:39:48Rich Roll?

  This is why you're doing a podcast.

• 1:39:49Speaker 01

  It's not, it's not even a prediction. It's like-

• 1:39:52Speaker 02

  No, not for money, actually.

• 1:39:53Speaker 01

  It's, uh, it's more just, you know, turning around behind and, and looking at history, right? The same way they thought television would kill radio, that it would kill movies, like, streaming was gonna destroy the movie industry. You know, there is a glut, um, and you have people now that realize the experience of going to, uh, the cinema is half of it, right? Of, of enjoying whatever. Now, will, has the movie industry taken a hit? Has theaters taken a hit? Absolutely. But I do think, um, and I say this because ultimately- There will be no more subscribers. And it's already happening. There will be an ad-based

• 1:40:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:40:37Speaker 01

  system

• 1:40:37Speaker 02

  It'll be broadcast

• 1:40:38Speaker 01

  coming to Netflix.

• 1:40:39Speaker 02

  Again.

• 1:40:39Speaker 01

  And it will all go back around.

• 1:40:41Rich Roll?

  You already seen it. Like, I'm watching something on Amazon Prime

• 1:40:44Speaker 02

  With commercials.

• 1:40:44Rich Roll?

  and they're showing ads.

• 1:40:45Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:40:45Rich Roll?

  And it's like, didn't I pay to not have this? Like, what is going on?

• 1:40:48Speaker 01

  It's the only

• 1:40:48Rich Roll?

  It's gonna go back to the way it was.

• 1:40:50Speaker 01

  TV was invented to sell soap.

• 1:40:53Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:40:53Speaker 01

  It's the only reason we have television. It was something, they needed something to put between the ads. And it is the only revenue model that services the greater sources of revenue. And it will, it is inevitable that it goes back to some sort of ad-based revenue system. It just, it just is. And, and when that begins to happen, you ultimately have, you know, there's a limit to the people who are willing to pull out dollars. And I do think, not that it'll shrink back to what it was, but I think you will see things, you know, level out and begin to, you know, there's gonna, you know, we are stretched right now.

• 1:41:36Speaker 02

  It's really hard to sell things right now. That's what I do hear a lot and know personally. It's just, there's a lot more picking and choosing going on. And, you know, everybody's trying to figure it out. But I think ultimately, I always, you know, I just think entertainment survives. Like, the whole conversation with AI and is it gonna be this? Is it gonna be that? I think at the end of the day, human experience is what we're banking on, can never not be marketable. So, I just think that, you know, we're just going through a cleaning out process right now. And I think it will bounce back. I agree with Kurt. I think it'll be some sort of broadcast-y

• 1:42:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:15Speaker 02

  revenue stream. It just has to be.

• 1:42:17Speaker 01

  And the irony is that

• 1:42:20Speaker 02

  Unless you're Ted Sarandos, I guess.

• 1:42:22Speaker 01

  Uncle Ted.

• 1:42:23Rich Roll?

  He's out buying a mountain, building a mountain out.

• 1:42:25Speaker 02

  Something.

• 1:42:26Speaker 01

  There's this energy around television right now because it's so, with other platforms, it's so connected to other product, right? That there's such caution about the entertainment piece impacting the

• 1:42:42Speaker 01

  Other markets that

• 1:42:44Rich Roll?

  What does that mean?

• 1:42:45Speaker 02

  You mean like Apple and Amazon?

• 1:42:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, like Apple and Amazon.

• 1:42:47Speaker 02

  What they actually sell.

• 1:42:48Speaker 01

  It's like they don't want to do anything that fucks up iPhone sales, right? And so there's this weird like swing back in terms of ideology and limitations and content.

• 1:43:01Rich Roll?

  Oh, absolutely.

• 1:43:02Speaker 01

  Like there was like in the 1950s on CBS, right? It's this weird like it's limitless content that has to be right there.

• 1:43:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and less gatekeepers and unmediated and all these ways. And you've seen the clapback like I think that the place where I noticed it the most is in the documentary space. In the beginning, like Netflix was like a haven for documentary filmmakers and all these edgy, really cool documentaries would show up there and you would get exposed to, you know, like wonderful work that you ordinarily would never see, right? And they really built their business on that. That was a leading edge kind of reason to subscribe to Netflix. And then it became about growth into all these foreign territories and any kind of documentaries that were speaking truth to power that would threaten the growth of those subscriber opportunities. There's no reason for Netflix to, you know, put a show like that on its platform.

• 1:43:57Rich Roll?

  It doesn't matter how good the movie is.

• 1:43:59Speaker 02

  Now it's crime. Now it's all true crime.

• 1:44:01Rich Roll?

  It's all true crime and it's algorithm. This is what people want, right? This obviously works so that you're just seeing more and more and more of that. And it gets diluted to the point where the other thing that it has to come back around to is human imagination, right? And the artistic voice and the vision. And maybe AI will be able to like, you know, manufacture that, not anytime soon, hopefully, but that's all you have as an artist, right? Like that's all that you can like go back to and rely upon.

• 1:44:30Speaker 01

  You should absolutely have, you should get Langrath on your podcast.

• 1:44:36Rich Roll?

  I'd love to.

• 1:44:36Speaker 01

  You know, because he is, he's so fucking smart and has such a strong and educated and experiential point of view about everything you're talking about. And he, unlike me. As a way of delivery in a very, you know, you know, John is the king of Not like in a bar fight way? Yeah. But he, but he, he's extraordinary in his understanding and the, as you said, you know, how every, the, how everything is getting, you know, diluted and, and homogenized in a way that is undermining the very thing we're trying to support or manifest, you know? That's my, that's my little plug.

• 1:45:20Rich Roll?

  So where does that leave like the two of you, the future? Like, how do you evaluate like what you're doing next and manage like the kind of fear and uncertainty that comes with that?

• 1:45:32Speaker 02

  How to manage it?

• 1:45:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:35Speaker 02

  Well, cause there's lots of fear and uncertainty is to, you know, stay present, know that for today, there's enough. I don't know. For me, I sort of, I just did a great show called One Piece, which is for Netflix and based on a Japanese manga show. It's the second season of their live action. I played this really cool character. So that was really fun. And, you know, for me, it's a little, it's definitely different than what he does. I mean, he has to make up a whole bunch of shit. I can be a hired gun on something that's well-written and, you know, I'm just like a gun for hire right now. So I, I never, I don't ever know what the, what's next. I'm all, I'm the first one to say, I'll never work again. So, and I know that's not true.

• 1:46:18Speaker 02

  It's been proven that it's not true, but Kurt has to remind me.

• 1:46:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, it's also for me, I know that everything that I've done that has moved forward in a way, you know, to progress to production or whatever is, I would say 95% of the time is something that I didn't see coming, right? And now it comes out of effort, meaning I have to still write every day. I still have to try to, you know, pick up, look at projects that I've started working on, you know? Like I have to be engaged and move forward, but I, I guess I've been doing it long enough and I have enough trust. It's not even faith at this point, right?

• 1:47:01Speaker 01

  If I'm looking at it happening over and over again, it becomes, I trust that process. So I can trust that if I keep doing what I'm doing, that if something is supposed to come along, even if I wanted to try to figure it out. Chances are, I'm not going to be able to. The key is still showing up to work, knowing that this is leading to where I'm going. This is not where I'm going, if that makes sense.

• 1:47:33Rich Roll?

  In a sort of War of Art, Steven Pressfield kind of way.

• 1:47:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:37Speaker 01

  It's just the idea that I-

• 1:47:39Rich Roll?

  You show up for the work.

• 1:47:39Speaker 01

  Show up and know that.

• 1:47:41Rich Roll?

  You show up in the rooms, you show up for the page, you show up for the audition.

• 1:47:44Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:47:44Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:47:45Speaker 02

  That's what you do. And, I mean, this is why we were talking about our kids, who are trying to all do this, and it is such a different world now, and to say to them, you know, they've chosen this insane, nonlinear thing to do. There is no, like, track. You know, you are constantly having to reinvent.

• 1:48:04Rich Roll?

  There's no right way.

• 1:48:04Speaker 02

  There's no, like, you know, ladder that you climb up necessarily. And, you know, it just takes a little bit of, like, I always tell my kids, and I tell anybody that's young doing, like, you have to sort, you have to have this kind of faith in your talent, that it's also built on that I can't do anything else. I don't know what else to do. And, not that you don't, there's plenty of artistic people that have to find something else to do, but, you know, it just takes, like, um, it's just kind of crazy, man. It's insane what we do. And to trust that it's gonna keep going.

• 1:48:41Rich Roll?

  You're all carnival people.

• 1:48:43Speaker 02

  It's really circus, but we call ourselves circus people because we move a lot, too. We're always like, one year, we had this big ass house that we bought right when we got married, and, you know, I think we both lost our shows right at the same time, and we were like, "Okay, pack it up, time to go." And we downsized just a little bit, you know, and then, you know, you just kind of, I mean, for me, that's how I grew up. My dad was always like, you know, from the big house to the littler, you know, it's just, it just kind of goes along with it, you know?

• 1:49:14Speaker 01

  I tell my-

• 1:49:14Speaker 02

  You live in uncertainty.

• 1:49:15Speaker 01

  You know, I remember telling this, I think it was probably both Jackson and Sarah, but that-

• 1:49:21Speaker 01

  You know, when you go auditioning, and for me, doing that work I do every day is part of me doing the next job. So that when you're auditioning, you're not auditioning for that project. You're auditioning for the project you're going to get six months down the line. And having that perspective, for me, it takes the pressure off of me to go, what am I doing? How is this going to sell? Like, I can just go, oh, this is what I have to do. And in terms of auditioning, like, it takes the pressure off of like, I gotta get this, you know, I gotta get, you know, it's like, no, I do the best I can.

• 1:49:58Rich Roll?

  You do it because you do it. It's a way of saying, like, it's about the process.

• 1:50:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's hard. It's hard to do when you're not working and when you're fearful. But it really is, you know, there has to be that kind of approach, no matter what it is.

• 1:50:15Speaker 02

  I like what you said about trust. That's a great way to, you know, because I'm always couching it as faith. But it's really like, you can kind of trust your experience that, you know, it's happened, so it's going to keep happening. I'm saying this to myself.

• 1:50:28Speaker 01

  No, that was a Bill Burns thing.

• 1:50:30Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 1:50:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, he had a whole talk about that.

• 1:50:33Rich Roll?

  Do you think, like, what you do is only for the people who feel like they just couldn't do anything else? It's sort of like, to go into the arts, it's not a meritocracy in the commercial sense, and there's so much uncertainty. And it's a beautiful way to live, because you're marrying, like, you're, like... I think what's so kind of underappreciated is the artist's life, especially as someone who's like, you know, it's about like my artistic integrity. Like, there's something about that inward journey that is also about like, knowing yourself, right? Like, it is a spiritual thing. Like, it's a spiritual practice, and it's a way of being, it's a way of life, more than it is like a career track.

• 1:51:18Rich Roll?

  And that's not for everybody. So for somebody who is aspiring to a creative career or thinking about it, like you mentioned, like, things that you tell young people, like, what is the counsel that you would give?

• 1:51:33Speaker 02

  What I would say is...

• 1:51:37Speaker 02

  You have to really want it. You have to really want it. All the, all the good and the bad of it, you know, the struggle of it. And, you know, because it's, it's insane. I mean, it's like, and, and it's very, very limited as to who gets on the other side of the wall. You know, there's this big wall. And then if you get into the pool, that's a big step. And a lot of people just don't. And so you just have to, you know, I don't know. My parents used to always talk to me about a plan B. And I was always like, bullshit, I'm not having a plan B. I don't know, you know, I sing and I, I, this is what I do. I don't know what else to do. I remember right before I started working in television, I thought, well, I do like houses.

• 1:52:21Speaker 02

  Maybe I'll, I guess I could sell real estate. I guess I could go.

• 1:52:25Rich Roll?

  Well, I mean, LA's filled, I mean, all real estate agents are people who came here to be an actor or to pursue something in Hollywood.

• 1:52:32Speaker 02

  So that sounded like pretty awful. So, I mean, luckily, you know, shit happens, you know, but I, I.

• 1:52:39Rich Roll?

  But the plan B thing, it's like, if you have a plan B, then you're the first, when it gets hard, you're probably the first person to slide out.

• 1:52:46Speaker 02

  To lean on your plan B, yeah. So I don't really, you know, I, I, I don't even know the answer to that question, except to love what you do. I mean, it is a blessing to be able to be an artist. I really, I mean, I remember Ron Perlman telling me this when he was talking to me about his kids who are also in the arts. And what he would say to them was, the greatest gift of my life is to be able to do art. And so how do you discourage a child from wanting to do that? Now, if my kids were not talented, I think I would be the first to tell them, you know what, mm-mm, not for you. And I would say it very, very honestly. But, you know, they're talented, so I get it.

• 1:53:28Speaker 02

  And I don't know if I have any advice, except just jump in with both feet and be your own best advocate.

• 1:53:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, you don't want to discourage somebody who has a dream, right? And when you, like, someone like shadow artists, right? Like, if you are, you know, kind of attracted to this world, there's lots of different jobs and occupations.

• 1:53:48Speaker 02

  Absolutely, yes. But, you know, it's. I don't know, man. Now I really understand my parents. My dad was very discouraging of me being in the arts. He really, like, my second brother went to law school. He's the only one of the kids in the family that didn't go into, even though he was an entertainment lawyer. But he, my dad was so, like, that was his favorite, because he went to Harvard and did all the stuff. You know, and I was just in my room banging on my piano, thinking, this is what I'm gonna do. And I just remember him just so worried about me, so worried, like, which, in fact, he's the guy, he got me a SAG card, because my dad gave me a bit

• 1:54:32Speaker 02

  part in something, because, you know, getting a SAG card is, is hard.

• 1:54:37Rich Roll?

  Right. If you're gonna be a musician, how are you gonna get?

• 1:54:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:54:39Rich Roll?

  How are you gonna go to the doctor?

• 1:54:40Speaker 02

  Health insurance. So that was his deal. He was like, alright, well, you're gonna get a SAG card, so whatever you do, you'll have health insurance. Which, years later, I appreciated much more than at the time, I thought he was trying to force me. You're trying to make me be an actor. I don't wanna be an actor. That's what I thought.

• 1:54:56Rich Roll?

  And your dad hated actors.

• 1:54:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, he didn't like actors. He didn't hate them.

• 1:55:00Rich Roll?

  Well.

• 1:55:01Speaker 02

  He understood the intolerable nature of them sometimes.

• 1:55:06Rich Roll?

  Well, I have so much respect for, for both of you individually as, as artists, but, but even more so, like, your commitment to your, your spiritual growth and your commitment to each other, and, and to see, like, the evolution of your marriage and your relationship, and it's evident, like, how close you are now, like, and that's a product of the work that I'm sure you've both invested, you know, in this process. And, like I said, it's, it's a process that I'm in right now, and so it's inspiring, you know, just see you, like, thriving in this way.

• 1:55:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:55:38Rich Roll?

  Thank you, man. That means a lot. Thank you. This was great, man. We did it.

• 1:55:42Speaker 02

  We did it.

• 1:55:42Rich Roll?

  How do you feel? Do you feel alright? I'm, I think so.

• 1:55:45Speaker 02

  I think so.

• 1:55:45Rich Roll?

  Did we do it alright? Yeah, I didn't, you know, like...

• 1:55:48Speaker 02

  Were we too personal?

• 1:55:49Rich Roll?

  No, it's good. Because you have super, you have, like, super intelligent guests on the show.

• 1:55:53Speaker 02

  I know, we're just like...

• 1:55:54Rich Roll?

  What the fuck are we gonna talk about? No, this is great. Like, I didn't know we should juggle, I didn't know what the fuck I was gonna do. Yeah, but like, if those people come on and they're not coming from the heart, you know what I mean? Like, I, these are the conversations that I, that I love the most, and I savor, and, you know, reflect on the most. So, alright, everybody, so check out Pi. It stands for People, Inspiration.

• 1:56:13Speaker 02

  Influences.

• 1:56:14Rich Roll?

  Influences.

• 1:56:14Speaker 02

  And experiences.

• 1:56:15Rich Roll?

  Yes. Because, means what?

• 1:56:19Rich Roll?

  What does that mean?

• 1:56:19Speaker 02

  Nature and nurture.

• 1:56:20Speaker 01

  Nature and nurture. We sort of dive into not what it is you do, but what created the person that wanted to do it. So it's more about understanding, you know, how someone became who they are. So we try to take a deep dive into, you know, not into exposing trauma or anything like that, but as much as to understand how, like, a perfect example we were just talking about was with Rain, right? Understanding his story that led to that guy is like, you know, like when you hear his story, you're like, holy shit.

• 1:56:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:00Speaker 01

  You know, so that's what we love is like, being able to immediately get to that level of conversation that sort of digs deeper than most people perhaps are used to doing in either this format or, you know. And then, you know, we're not stupid. So there is a portion where you get to talk about the shit you're doing and

• 1:57:23Speaker 02

  And eat pie.

• 1:57:23Speaker 01

  And eat pie and sell shit, you know.

• 1:57:25Speaker 02

  But we're gonna, we like to talk about, you know, marriage and parenting and all that stuff too, because, you know, we are all products of where we come from. So, you know, we'll tear you open, Rich.

• 1:57:36Rich Roll?

  Awesome.

• 1:57:37Speaker 02

  No, not really.

• 1:57:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, no, it's good. Available on all the, in all the places, right?

• 1:57:42Speaker 01

  I believe so.

• 1:57:43Rich Roll?

  On YouTube, the Kurt Sutter YouTube page.

• 1:57:44Speaker 01

  Yes, we do.

• 1:57:45Rich Roll?

  All the podcast places.

• 1:57:46Speaker 01

  Yes. We, we're on YouTube and on my channel and then in Podcast Land.

• 1:57:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:57:54Rich Roll?

  There you go. Welcome to the wonderful world of podcasting.

• 1:57:57Speaker 02

  I love your whole deal. This is so cool.

• 1:58:00Rich Roll?

  Well, you're welcome anytime. Thanks, you guys. That was, that was really fun. I appreciate it.

• 1:58:04Speaker 01

  Appreciate it.

• 1:58:05Rich Roll?

  Much love. Peace.

• 1:58:14Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as The Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and/or comment. This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors who keep

• 1:58:57Rich Roll?

  this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com/sponsors. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiello. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg. Graphic and social media assets courtesy of Daniel Solis. And thank you Georgia Whaley for copywriting and website management.

• 1:59:42Rich Roll?

  And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support, see you back here soon. Peace. Plants.

• 1:59:54Speaker 02

  Namaste.

• 2:00:19Speaker 02

  You