Here’s What It’s Really Like to Live as a Christian in the Holy Land

Self-described evangelicals like Ted Cruz and Mike Johnson have no interest in how Israel treats Christians. Mother Agapia Stephanopoulos has spent years living in the region. They should listen to her. (00:00) The Difficult Life of a Christian Living in the Holy Land (06:39) Israel’s Apartheid System (13:17) Are We Being Lied to About the Relationship Between Muslims and Christians in the Middle East? (25:19) Why Are American Christians Supporting Israeli Persecution of Christians? (57:40) How Many Christians in the Holy Land Support the Government of Israel? (59:59) What Is the Purpose of Hamas? CMEP.org and telosgroup.org (two Christian peacemaking orgs for Mother Agapia) http://stnicholasconvent.org/ Paid partnerships with: Byrna: Go to https://Byrna.com or your local Sportsman's Warehouse today. PureTalk: Go to https://PureTalk.com/Tucker to make the switch Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:29Tucker Carlson?

  Thank you for doing this. So you first moved to the Holy Land in 1996?

• 0:35Speaker 02

  Correct, yep.

• 0:36Tucker Carlson?

  As a nun?

• 0:36Speaker 02

  Right.

• 0:38Tucker Carlson?

  How are Christians doing in the Holy Land?

• 0:40Speaker 02

  Well, it's become a very difficult time for them there.

• 1:04Speaker 02

  Basically, the Christians are in the same situation as the Muslims, being a Palestinian. So the problem is, so there's two different things. If you live in Israel, you're a citizen. And so they are, can live there and work, but there's sort of some petty grievances that people might have. But if you're a Christian in Palestine, which is where most of the activities of the life of Christ are, Bethlehem, Jerusalem, the Mount of Alus, Jericho, Jacob's Well, that's all within Palestine. And so there's many, that's the predominance of the Christian population there. And they're treated with the effects of the occupation, which means you have checkpoints around you. You can't, you're not, a Christian who lives in Bethlehem

• 1:48Speaker 02

  cannot go to Jerusalem, to the Holy Sepulchre, without a permit by Israel. And they don't usually give those permits, especially now.

• 1:56Tucker Carlson?

  A Christian can't?

• 1:57Speaker 02

  No, without permission from Israel.

• 2:02Tucker Carlson?

  That's interesting, because I mean, those Christians that you're describing, I mean, they're the descendants of the Christians.

• 2:09Speaker 02

  Absolutely, yeah. They've been there from the beginning, yeah. I mean, right, Christ came as a Jew, right?

• 2:15Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 2:15Speaker 02

  Into the temple, but the people that converted and have lived there for centuries are, in fact, I think there's been studies done that if you, on Palestinians living there now, and they are the Canaanite descendants.

• 2:27Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 2:28Speaker 02

  They're people that have been there for centuries. Not all, or the greater part, not just Palestine included, Syria and Lebanon at a different time, under different empires and things. So, yeah, they're the first Christians, the Christians of the time of Christ. And they can, it's very difficult to practice their faith. It's sort of like you're in a gilded cage. And the best, that's how I look at Bethlehem. Within Bethlehem, you can live there, but you can't go and visit your friend who lives near Jacob's Well in Nablus without taking it. In fact, the priest in Bethlehem just told me the other day, his wife is from near Jenin, which normally would take you about an hour and a half to get between the two. Her father has prostate cancer.

• 3:10Speaker 02

  In order to get treatment, there was only hospitals, there's nothing in the Northwest Bank could deal with it, either in Jerusalem or in Hebron, which is south of Bethlehem. And last year, or a couple of years ago, he was able to go to Jerusalem with a permit to get the treatment, but this year, the Israelis wouldn't let him. So it took him over five hours to get down to Hebron, and a man who's old and sick to do any things. So whether it's for those kind of activities, or practicing your faith, or visiting your relatives, which is part of Christian life too, right? You want to celebrate the holidays with your family and friends? It becomes very difficult to do.

• 3:47Tucker Carlson?

  The reason I'm asking these questions, well, first, I think it's worth worrying about Christians who are the minority population, well, it's worth worrying about Christians in general, but the United States is a majority Christian country that pays for a huge percentage of the Israeli economy, both through trade and direct grants and military assistance and all the rest. Israel couldn't exist without the United States. So, and it has the support of so many Christians in the United States, and I don't know if they're fully aware.

• 4:17Tucker Carlson?

  I want to think they would care if they knew how the Christians are doing. And I keep reading that the Christian population in the region has declined dramatically since Israel became a state in 1948.

• 4:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 4:30Tucker Carlson?

  And I'm not quite sure why.

• 4:32Speaker 02

  Well, again, I think it has to do because the whole issue is that Israel has continued to grow and think that they can dominate the Christian areas, the areas of Palestine. So they make it very difficult for anyone else to be able to live there. As simple as that.

• 4:48Tucker Carlson?

  But you would think Christians would get a special pass or dispensation because the United States is the great patron and it's a Christian country.

• 4:56Speaker 02

  No, because, well, the problem you have is one with the Christian Zionists, the ones who don't recognize the Christians in the Holy Land as being fully Christian, apparently. Because why would a crew, I have a very hard time understanding why someone who is, calls themselves a Christian and then gives money to support the building of settlements. Do we understand what that means? The settlements are in the areas of Palestine. They're taking over the land that belongs to the people of Palestine. And this has been going on, as I said, I've been there since 1996 and I've seen the continued growth of the settlement. I lived in Bethany, Biblical Bethany. Beyond and over the mountain, Mount of Olives, was the convent I was in, in Jerusalem.

• 5:38Speaker 02

  And to the east of me was the settlement of Mali Adameen in 1998. It was a relatively small settlement then. And then you go down the road to Jericho. It was one lane. It's now a larger highway. And that settlement of Mali Adameen is like a huge city and has closed off the people of Bethany. We are closed off in Bethany from going to our convent in Jerusalem because of the wall that was built on Palestinian land, on Christian land. To, there's a, there's a Christian home for boys that the Israelis just took over and cut up to make part of the wall that's separate. So they weren't, it wasn't done for security to build that wall. It was done simply to expand the borders of Israel.

• 6:23Tucker Carlson?

  Wait, so they went right through Christian land? Did Christians in the West say anything about this?

• 6:27Speaker 02

  Very few. I mean, I, uh, there was, and also on that stretch, at the lower end of the Mount of Olives, there was a nursing home run by Catholic church. And the, the, um, nun that was in charge, she spoke to the French press and soon after she was told to, she was sent to Lebanon or to another post, wasn't allowed to be there. Me, at the same time, we had, the wall was built right beyond Lazarus's tomb. Our school is walking distance from Lazarus's tomb, from where Martha and Mary lived. And they built the wall right above where the tomb is. So that separated some of our teachers from being able to come to school. It separated our families on either side of the wall.

• 7:09Speaker 02

  So in April of 2005, I went to Washington and spoke to some congresspeople, not to demean Jews or not to even demean the state of Israel, to say, "Look, we are being affected by this wall. It's affecting our religious life. I can't bring my, I can't go to visit my convent easily anymore because of this wall. It's disrupting our school life and we'd like to see..." It's not for security. It's not separating Israel from Palestine. It's separating Palestine from Palestine in the two. I get back home.

• 7:43Tucker Carlson?

  I'm sorry, what kind of reception did you, so you went to Congress?

• 7:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, and a handful. Actually, I remember a very sweet occurrence. He's died since, but Senator Paul Wellstone of Minnesota, I was scheduled to meet him and he wasn't there. But then he came and he literally ran down the hall to catch me. So there were a few, there are a few people that were sympathetic. But, um, overall, no. And I even felt the sense when I was talking to people that, um, that the, um, like I went to a meeting where there were a few aides there of different congresspeople, right, not just in one office. And just felt as if there was someone there watching what was, what he was saying or doing, going on. So anyways, I get that-

• 8:22Tucker Carlson?

  Did you meet with any Christian church leaders here in the US?

• 8:26Speaker 02

  Unfortunately, I mean, the Catholic Church has done a lot and said a lot. But I, sad to say, I feel the Orthodox Church in America has been very reluctant to speak out on this issue.

• 8:38Tucker Carlson?

  Why?

• 8:39Speaker 02

  Or to get involved. Maybe sometimes we, I think it's partly, it's just simply awareness. Even when people go on pilgrimages to the Holy Land, they probably have Israeli tour guides and they don't, you know, it's an amazing experience to go to the Holy Land. It's overwhelming to be a pious person to go there and you're thinking about going to see where Jesus was and here I'm on the Sea of Galilee. And you don't really perceive what that wall means or who are those people living over there or how come there's only cars with yellow plates here? And then we were in Jericho and I saw these green and white plates. What does that mean going on? They don't understand it. So they don't get the concept.

• 9:16Tucker Carlson?

  What does a yellow license plate mean?

• 9:18Speaker 02

  Yellow plate is for people who live in the state of Israel and they can go on certain roads, all roads. And for Palestinians who have a Jerusalem ID are allowed to have a car with a yellow plate. And then Palestinians have green and white plates and they cannot use. So over that time that I've been here, as the settlements have grown, you build the infrastructure for it. The electricity, the roads, separate roads that are used only by people that have yellow plates. As a foreigner and part of a foreign church, we were entitled to have either those or they also have white diplomatic plates, that's kind of diplomatic and religious plates that are there. So there's very much an apartheid system, very much so.

• 10:00Speaker 02

  It's a, and but so which gave me the freedom to help my Christians friends in Bethlehem and other places. Like one time there was a woman who, her daughter, they were from Bethlehem, married a Christian who lived in Jerusalem. So he had rights to be in the city of Jerusalem, have blue ID. But the mother, when the, the daughter gave birth to their first child, she didn't have any way to go to see her daughter because it would be illegal for her to go into Jerusalem to get there. So I had the school van and I got, went to Bethlehem, go get her. And a lot of times we'd have a little more leeway. You know, if I get, go through a checkpoint, they'll see it's a nun and I'd go pass through a lot easier than someone else would.

• 10:45Speaker 02

  So I was able to get her through to be able to go see her daughter at the birth of her granddaughter.

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• 13:52Tucker Carlson?

  I'll just be totally blunt with you. Most Americans are aware that there's a system, something like what you just described. But the pretext for it, the justification for it, is that there's a lot of Islamic terrorism. There are a couple intifadas, there are a lot of suicide bombings. And it's Islamic terror. And most Americans have been taught for 25 years that Islamic terror is a threat. And you know, there's some truth in that, of course. But so we assume

• 14:21Tucker Carlson?

  that Christians would be getting an exemption from all this. Why would Christians, who are not responsible for Christian terror? There's no such thing. Why would they be penalized for this? Why wouldn't they, again, when the patron saint state is majority Christian, why wouldn't the Christians there be getting some kind of special pass? I just don't understand that. Why punish the Christians for Islamic terror?

• 14:45Speaker 02

  Because I don't think it's Islamic terrorism that's taking place in the first place. I think we have to disabuse ourselves of that notion that this is a battle between Muslim and Jew. Or that, you know, constantly you heard after October, the October event was that Hamas, Hamas, Hamas. Even to this day, we hear it's Hamas, Hamas, Hamas. What is Hamas? Hamas are people who have had their homes taken from them, who if they live in Gaza, have not been able, basically been in an open-air prison for certainly the last 20 years going on. Even when Israelis withdrew from Gaza, they didn't leave open borders. There was no freedom for people in Gaza to develop their economy.

• 15:28Speaker 02

  If, I know people who wanted to try to go to school in America and couldn't get out of Gaza. You know, had a Fulbright scholarship and weren't able to leave. What do you mean, couldn't get out? Israel didn't give them permission. So what kind of freedom is that? If you live in Gaza? They couldn't even fly out? No. And their airport had been bombed in what, 2000 and early on, 2000, there was an airport built soon after the Oslo Accords. But Israel has intervened many times in Gaza and little by little destroyed. You know, when I first went there in 2002, after the Second Inflatus started, I remember saying to my mother back home, you know, this is genocide, even that genocide by Chinese water torture. But now we're seeing genocide on steroids. You're American, I should say.

• 16:12Speaker 02

  Yes, I'm born in America, yeah, lived in America. And so, getting back to Hamas, so also, the school I was at has 350 girls. It's in a town that's 98% Muslim. Though it has roots, I mean, it's the roots of where Bethany, where on our school grounds is a stone from the 6th century. This is, this is where Christ met Martha at the resurrection. You know, so we're talking about, and it's the road leading, there's still part of the road, the road that existed when Christ walked during that time and would have seen Lazarus and Martha and Mary. Lazarus' tomb is down the road, right? But it, and so permeated even with Palestinian Muslim culture is the sense that Christians

• 16:55Speaker 02

  lived here and they recognized Jesus as a prophet. So they respect him as, and so there's, I'm not saying that everything is perfect. You can't have divisions between, just like even with Christians. You know, some Christians might think we should have, allow politics to be in the church or legislate Christian morality. And others would think totally different. So you can have sort of differences of opinion, if you will, and we can all live with each other between that. So with Muslim and Christian, they can have their differences. But overall, the Palestinian culture is infused with both there.

• 17:32Tucker Carlson?

  So you were a nun in a majority Muslim town, a Christian nun in your habit, I assume?

• 17:38Speaker 02

  And which also was to an advantage because pious Muslims are not jihadists, the ones that I know. I'm not saying other parts of the world that may be the case, but in Palestine, it's simply not the case. Or Syria, or Lebanon, or Iraq. The Muslims, they're for the most part are, they've all grown up together, the Christians and the Muslims. And there's a certain amount of commonality and respect. And so me wearing, being dressed like this was just like many of the women there, right? So they kind of respected that. There's the same sort of conservative culture. There's the same sort of idea that we're both, have some same basic values of compassion for our neighbor, of doing, of taking care of our families and trying to live.

• 18:23Speaker 02

  They have their form of fasting and almsgiving, and it's actually very important to them. And I think the best parts of Islam come from its development from Christian ideas that Muhammad came to know. I'm sure of that. And so you can sense it.

• 18:37Tucker Carlson?

  This is a very different story from the one that we're told in the American media, that Christians are imperiled by Muslims in the Middle East.

• 18:44Speaker 02

  They are not imperiled by Muslims in Palestine. That is an absolute fact. And yeah, that's just simply not the case. And again, going back to my school, in our school, we had icons, which are part of the Orthodox tradition, pictures of saints and crosses in every classroom. No problem with that. I could show you a photograph, I can't now, but of the graduates of the latest high school graduation. And you know, they're embracing the nuns, they're dressed actually in a more secular way. And yeah, it all, it all works together.

• 19:17Tucker Carlson?

  So a lot of your students are Muslim?

• 19:19Speaker 02

  All, yeah, 98%. The only Christian students.

• 19:21Tucker Carlson?

  Of your students are Muslims?

• 19:22Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And about half the teachers during the time I was there, some Muslim, some Christian.

• 19:28Tucker Carlson?

  In a Christian school?

• 19:29Speaker 02

  Yes. And actually, that's all throughout Palestine. The Orthodox is relatively small. We do have schools in many of the Palestinian towns, but also Catholic schools, Lutheran schools, and most of the students are Muslims.

• 19:43Tucker Carlson?

  Huh.

• 19:43Speaker 02

  And the beautiful thing about where the great danger is, if the Christians continue to diminish a key part of Palestinian society, and within Israel as well, you go to Nazareth, you'll see many Catholic-run hospitals, schools. And so it's a fabric, it's a part of the whole character.

• 20:02Tucker Carlson?

  But I'm just still confused by the idea that the Christian population is declining under Israeli rule. You would think just the opposite.

• 20:11Speaker 02

  What gives them, what I observed from my time in Israel, and going back every year, is that they do not want any Palestinians there. So the majority of Christians in Israel and Palestine are Palestinian. So they have to leave too. What grieves me is that the Holocaust is a horrible, horrible thing that happened. People slaughtered fairly quickly. Sometimes the thought comes to me, when I've driven between, there's a tunnel road that goes from Jerusalem to Bethlehem, and it's only for the settlers to go on down to the

• 20:53Speaker 02

  continued settlements that lead down further south than Israel, to Hebron, or actually, I shouldn't say Israel, into Palestine, other Palestinian territory. As you're going, that tunnel road has been carved out of land that belongs to people in Bethlehem and Bejala, which you're passing by on that tunnel road. So it's like a living death. How would you like to be a man? That was your grandfather's olive trees. But now it's... Controlled by Israel and you're not even allowed to drive on that road. And on that very same road, I remember another poignant picture. There was a woman that worked at our convent, a nurse and took care of the nuns. And she had a home, a very typical stone Arab home.

• 21:38Speaker 02

  Beautiful home with grape vines. I remember going to pick the grapes at the house. That is now part of, they just confiscated the land. She fought it. She fought as long as she could to try to keep her property. And I remember passing by there some years and there's slowly, slowly new Israel homes are being built that look very different. And she's, there's her, something that looks out of, as if it, you know, belongs to biblical Palestine. And so what I was getting at is that these people, they're dying as they're living. Because it's like, and I remember sitting at the home of one of those people in Bejala. And they had lived in the center of town.

• 22:17Speaker 02

  It was his father's home and then he built a new one near the Talitha Kumi Lutheran School. And I'm literally was sitting with them one afternoon and he gets a call from his brother. The Israelis are here, they're pulling up our olive trees, cutting them down on some of their land. And he ran over, he got, collected as many of the trees as he could. Military order, that's what it was. They just go and do it, even though it's not their land. And then military order, nothing you can do. They have jeeps and weapons. You're not going to stop them. But he was able to take some of those trees. This shows the resiliencely and the word is Samud. It's like, it's a, it's a quiet persistence. This is our land and we're going to stay here. And this man is a doctor who studied in Hungary.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  He took those olive trees and they now are in a plot of land next to his new house and trying to grow. So it's like, this is, I'm not sure what Israel is trying to do. I mean, it's horrific what's going on in Gaza and what is very concerning to me and why I'm grateful to be on your show is that what is going to happen? The people that I know in the West Bank, Christian and Muslim. It's, it's, it's not said, but it's like, we're next. That what they've done to Gaza is going to come to us because who's going to stop them? Already in the northern parts where the refugee, the UNRWA, the refugee camps were,

• 23:44Speaker 02

  I was there in September, they'd already been making raids. I was in the center of Janine, right in front of the Catholic Church. They had bulldozed the middle of the road and broken the water pipes. No bullet holes. I lived in 2002 during the Intifada in Bethlehem. The whole city was full of bullet holes. So there hadn't been any confrontations, but they were still bulldozing and doing what they wanted to do to wreck the infrastructure, to make it harder for people to go to work up there. But now, in the last eight months, they've cleared out at least fifteen thousand people in Tulkaram and Janine in the northern part. They're not in their homes. Do you hear those stories? And these affect Christians as well.

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• 26:42Tucker Carlson?

  Do American Christian churches send money to a government that does this to Christians?

• 26:47Speaker 02

  Well, I think the ones that send money that support the settlements are obviously the Christian Zionists. There's an organization called Christians United for Israel. Pastor John Hagee. I was in Washington a few weeks ago because, well, they had a conference in Baltimore. So it's slowly growing, an awareness by other Christians in America that just like many Jews are protesting and saying, not in our name and Jewish, you know, the Jews, Jewish Voice for Peace, there has to be much more done by the Christians in America because these Christian Zionists are speaking in our name. Someone like Ted Cruz, Senator Cruz, is saying and doing what he's doing because he's following a Christianity that is not the Christianity of the Holy Land.

• 27:31Speaker 02

  It's not the Christianity of a Catholic or an Orthodox or a traditional Christian. It's a heretical belief.

• 27:39Tucker Carlson?

  What is Christian Zionism?

• 27:41Speaker 02

  As far as I understand it, they believe in the idea of the rapture. They believe that, you know, that it's sort of this cruel bargain they have going with Israel. Because basically what they say that they're going to be swooped up into heaven. Right. And then there's going to be a thousand year kingdom. And then there'll be the end of the world and the judgment by Christ and he'll come back. This is a false, it was condemned as a heresy in 381. Because basically, there is no thousand year millennium to come. No thousand year period. The end, we are in that time period now. And so it's a false belief there. And the

• 28:22Tucker Carlson?

  So basically, they're arguing is that Jesus coming the first time wasn't enough?

• 28:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's like, in a way, it's denying the Messiah. As an Orthodox Christian, the most important thing in my life is that we receive the body and blood of Christ. And we prepare ourselves to receive that body because Christ came as God and as man. And if you read John, it's actually 666. First, he says, "Take, eat, this is my body; and drink, this is my blood." And many a people heard the saying and found it to be a hard saying and turned away from him. So everybody was Jewish then, right? But some believed and some didn't. And some continued to follow only the law. And some said, and Christ superseded the law. He said, "There's something more than that law.

• 29:11Speaker 02

  I am the law. I fulfill the law and the prophets. We believe in the feast of the Transfiguration on Mount Tabor. It takes place near Nazareth. I've been there many times." And in our icons, in our images, you see Moses and you see Elijah aside Jesus, because the law and the prophets have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ. He came and said, "I'm the church, I'm your salvation." And you know, what I think often about is where I lived in the Mount of Olives, St. Mary Magdalene convent, right above it is a Catholic monastery called Dominus Flavit. Christ wept. It's where Christ wept, and I think of it often now because to some degree with Muslims, to a lesser degree, because they retain some of the Christian sensibility.

• 29:55Speaker 02

  But he's weeping over the people that didn't see him, that didn't understand who he was. And the, okay, so they follow only the law. And I think that's why you see these are people that can somehow justify allowing for the starvation and ethnic cleansing of so many people. Because think of the stories from the Gospels. Where Christ heals the man with the withered hand.

• 30:18Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 30:18Speaker 02

  And he's looking behind him are the Pharisees. And he's grieved at their hardness of heart. Because he was healing, healing, doing a work on the Sabbath day. And that was against the law. And so now, these Christians of wrong belief, believe that they need to rebuild the temple as part of their plan. So they believe that the current state of Israel, which has nothing to do with the biblical Israel, is needed to be built up. So that then somehow they can restore and build that temple. Fulfill an obligation of the law. And the price of that, they're willing to forego the compassion that Christ talked about and allow people to be starved and wiped out.

• 31:03Speaker 02

  And Christians in America have to understand that you're allowing both people who support the state of Israel, who are Jewish, and those Christians who think they're doing something in the name of Christ, when it's far from the name of Christ. And it's actually causing the end of the Christian population in the Holy Land. It's going to be, the numbers have dwindled. Now we're getting to the small thousands. I just received a call the other day. Jacob's Well is in the large city of Nablus, in the center of the West Bank, which has been grievously, raids take place all the time. And it's very difficult. But what happened the other day was that a Christian-run factory,

• 31:44Speaker 02

  in Nablus, there's about 600 families, around 600 Christians, a number of churches. And Jacob's Well, which is a very important site to us. We always go there on a pilgrimage when we can. And their factory, no warning, no permit. First, on June 26, I believe, Israeli army came in and confiscated some of the factory equipment. And then, two weeks later, they came and blew up a big portion of the factory. So how are people supposed to have?

• 32:15Speaker 02

  They gave no reason. There was no permit. They have lawyers. There has been, as far as I know to this day, no court order, no reason. And the only thing, I mean, quickly what popped into my head, because it is a metal making factory, okay, they must be using it to make weapons, right? These are Christians who have been there for decades, for centuries, I think, even the family. And it's a well-known business, all right? And no, no order was given. And quite, I almost feel a little worried about saying anything, because I don't know what the repercussions will be with that family, because they have no recourse. Who do they go to?

• 32:50Tucker Carlson?

  Where's Ted Cruz in all this? Ted Cruz talks about how he's a Christian. Mike Johnson, as the Speaker of the House, talks about how he's a Christian. They talk about it a lot, actually.

• 32:58Speaker 02

  I think they have to, we have to, I'm not sure that it can be done by, we have to battle AIPAC and the Christian Zionists by the Christians standing up, say, not in my name. We can't be doing this. So if they're getting money from these organizations, then Christians have to have enough concern to say, I don't want this happening in my name.

• 33:18Tucker Carlson?

  No, and to my brothers in Christ.

• 33:20Speaker 02

  Right, exactly. And not only it's the real people, the living stones that are there, that keep the churches open, that keep things going, but also for our Christian legacy. You know, we're supposedly a country based on a Judeo-Christian heritage, right? But, so where is that Judeo-Christian heritage when you're destroying the very foundations of it? Saint Jerome translated the Bible in Bethlehem. His, the cells where he was at are under the Church of the Nativity. You know, the very roots of our Christian heritage are there, and we're letting it be destroyed. Not physically, and, yeah, physically by killing the people, but also, there's a wonderful person, when you talk about resistance,

• 34:03Speaker 02

  this all started with Hamas. So for the most part, I would say they're a resistance movement, they're simply people fighting for their people, trying to protect their land. And I don't know if we want to reach into the area of, the whole problem is, is there was never defined what Palestine is. You know, the Oslo Accords took place, and then there was nothing to, there was area A, B, and C. And you didn't have a Palestine. So little by little, Israel just keeps taking over the land, as they're confiscating, building the settlements, adding the checkpoints, and making, strangling the life of anybody living there.

• 34:40Speaker 02

  Now I lost my train of thought, I'm going to dance.

• 34:42Tucker Carlson?

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• 35:24Tucker Carlson?

  the jerry-rigging of power boxes to steal electricity, foreign pesticides, collusion with the Mexican cartels. It's unbelievable. By the way, one of the drug houses is like walking distance from my house. I didn't know that. It's a layered and fascinating story. Head to TuckerCarlson.com to watch now. We think you'll love it.

• 35:44Speaker 00

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• 36:14Speaker 07

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• 36:36Tucker Carlson?

  The state of Israel, you know, is less than 80 years old, but that area is thousands of years old, controlled by various empires, as you've said, and then finally the British up until 1948. During all that time, huge pieces of land were owned by various Christian churches, particularly in Jerusalem. What happened to that? Do they still own that land?

• 36:59Speaker 02

  They own the land, but this is where it's sort of the lesser kind of persecution, is that they use legal means or semi-legal means because you have land that was under the Ottoman Empire and there might be some dock means or certain leases and they say, "Well, the lease is up now, we have to renegotiate it," and suddenly the Christians have lost a portion of their land. Or they'll use middlemen and say, and it's sort of acts of deceit. And they end up buying large, these front companies come and buy off some of the land and you don't realize that it's going to not Christians or not to Palestinians and being used in another way.

• 37:38Tucker Carlson?

  In Jerusalem?

• 37:39Speaker 02

  All, yeah, primarily around Jerusalem, Jerusalem and Bethlehem, there's large trunks that have been taken. The Knesset sits on the land owned by the Jerusalem Patriarchate.

• 37:51Tucker Carlson?

  What?

• 37:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, it was their land, yeah. And they have a lease, they have a lease for it.

• 37:57Tucker Carlson?

  How did they get it?

• 37:58Speaker 02

  Well, obviously they allowed them to have that. That was a legal operation that was done, yeah, to have that land.

• 38:06Tucker Carlson?

  When you first got there 30 years ago, were there more Christians than there are now?

• 38:10Speaker 02

  There were more. I mean, it still has been a relatively small population in the tens of thousands, I think, in Palestine overall, but it's certainly, I think, the greater degree, and little by little, it's decreased, but it's really...

• 38:27Speaker 02

  Getting frightening now because I think these last two years is sort of like almost pushed people over the edge. But then you hear of families in communities like five or 10 families that are leaving now, going to Europe, sometimes the US or Canada or Australia. And that's not only Christians, of course. Muslims are a bigger population. Because there are people, if you're raising your child, and there's no job opportunities for them, and quite frankly, there's a good likelihood that they, if you're a teenage boy, that you could get shot. I mean, I know a number of kids in Al Azariah where I was, 14, 15 year olds, who have been shot. And look at the difference in that. For what? Supposedly throwing a Molotov cocktail.

• 39:09Speaker 02

  And I now, think about when the war started with Ukraine and Russia. I remember a story in the New York Times. It was a huge story celebrating that a beer factory was now generating Molotov cocktails to throw against the Russians. And that was celebrated. In Palestine, hundreds of teenage boys have been killed because Israel will say they were throwing a Molotov cocktail. And I know of one case, he wasn't even, I think he was 12 years old last year. I know a beautiful man, Dr. Saleem, who's Muslim, but who used to take care of the nuns at our convent. He lives in Shofat Refugee Camp, which is part of Jerusalem.

• 39:50Speaker 02

  They pay Jerusalem taxes, but a wall surrounds them. They're guarded by Israeli soldiers. He tries to run a disability center, but they're constantly being raided, people being detained by the Israelis. And the infrastructure there, you can tell when you're in Palestine, East Jerusalem versus the West. One has sidewalk, nice sidewalks, good schools, the other is decrepit. Anyway, Dr. Saleem, there was a boy at the camp there, 12 years old. It was a Muslim holiday, and he had, he was shot dead. And what they said was he had thrown a Molotov cocktail. He was 200 yards from any soldier, and they shot him dead. But that literally happens every day.

• 40:36Speaker 02

  I have a young man that we just helped come to America a year and a half ago, who lives north of Hebron, who is Christian. And his family, he went to school a half hour north in Shepherd's Field. We wanted to bring him to America because he was at that age where you look the wrong way at a soldier and it's a possibility of getting shot. He's Christian, but he could be Muslim. It doesn't, you know, the point is that this is what happens to them. So, any normal family, you know, they want to stay in their land. It's difficult, it's difficult to immigrate. How are you going to be treated going to another country and have to, you know, pick up your livelihood and leave, leave other family members? It's not an easy thing to do, but yeah, it is happening that the population is declining. And the priests are very concerned. I've talked to a number of priests in the, in the West Bank, and they're aware of the situation.

• 41:21Speaker 02

  So what we're hoping to do, you know, there's sort of a latent movement of Christians that don't have this Christian Zionist perspective. And, you know, the Catholic Church has always done some to support the communities over there, but we haven't done anything politically because ultimately, it's not the money that's needed now. It has to be the change that we have to change the support of Israel. If you allow the settlements to continue, if you continue, you know, James Carville, right? He was under Clinton and he came up with a phrase for the campaign, "It's the economy, stupid. The problem with Israel and Palestine is not Muslim versus Jew, it's the occupation, stupid." That's really what it comes down to.

• 42:01Speaker 02

  And unless we get something where a sovereign Palestinian state where they're granted their freedom is created, and maybe that'll be two states with a boundary, or maybe it'll be some sort of confederation, that's up to the politicians to decide. But unless there's freedom and an ability for the Palestinians to develop and, and be free to have their country, Christians will continue to leave. And what will happen, not only those living stones will leave, but the holy sites...

• 42:31Speaker 02

  What gives me the greatest pleasure is after I left Jerusalem, I've lived in America, but two times a year I bring pilgrims, people who want to come and visit the holy sites. Go and see where Jesus Christ was crucified and resurrected. Go see where he was born, go up to the Sea of Galilee, be a part of that. And one of our saints says, "Taking a pilgrimage to the Holy Land is like the fifth gospel." So we can read the Bible all we want, but it's when we go there and really are at the places where our Lord walked and lived and performed his miracles that you really, it deepens your Christianity and your sense of the... One of the loveliest things is I take people of all ages, and I'll ask them, younger people at the end of the trip,

• 43:16Speaker 02

  "So what would you like the most?" And some people might say the Dead Sea or something, but I've also been struck that 15-year-old boys will come back and tell me, "It's when we went to the Holy Sepulcher into the tomb of Christ."

• 43:27Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 43:27Speaker 02

  So there's obviously something there that's important to our Christian heritage. And what's happening is if the Christians are forced to leave, if Israel takes greater control, what we will have is museums. They won't be living places of prayer. And that will be a great tragedy, not only for the Christians, but I think for the whole world.

• 43:49Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, because they're not owned by government. I mean, these are pre-existing.

• 43:52Speaker 02

  Of course, they've been there for centuries. And they have gone down and up. I mean, there have been times over the centuries where Christians have had difficult times and then rose up again and did. So I think actually we're in one of those dark times. I mean, we could go into a whole explanation of why the world is. Why do we even allow? This is mind-boggling to me. It's getting painful. I can't look at anything right now. And I think a lot of people, every day, these stories of what is happening and people justifying it. To anyone with a conscience, it's sort of like, "What are we doing? And how has this evil been allowed to grow and develop?"

• 44:32Tucker Carlson?

  Did you make any converts in Palestine ever?

• 44:36Speaker 02

  You mean Muslims?

• 44:37Tucker Carlson?

  Converting to Christianity?

• 44:38Speaker 02

  It's a, it's a, you have to be careful with it. But I will say that I don't know those Muslims that have converted to Christianity, but it's not something you can do openly. Not that they're going to be killed, but it's not, it won't be looked upon well. And it's not easy to do.

• 44:51Tucker Carlson?

  Is it legal?

• 44:53Speaker 02

  Um.

• 44:54Tucker Carlson?

  To proselytize?

• 44:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, uh, uh, we in Palestine?

• 44:58Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 45:00Speaker 02

  You can talk to me, I guess it doesn't, you know, the interesting thing is I'm Orthodox and in Orthodoxy, we don't, aren't really a proselytizing faith. It's a faith that's becomes of what you are and how you live. You know what I mean? It says, you don't actively do missionary work in a, in a lot of cases. Mostly it's just by your example. And that was the first Christians, right? And who were martyrs or were people, or their way of life because they weren't pagans, because they were trying, they were trying to treat people decently and people responded to that. They fought, you were following the message of Christ and that people said, oh yeah, well, we really don't want to live like the Ciberatic life that we were living before. And that looked appealing to people. So that's, that is what the witness of Christianity is.

• 45:43Speaker 02

  And that's another reason why if it's gone, it'll only hasten the bloodshed and the destruction in the Middle East, because I think that Christians are a buffer between Muslim and Jew in, um, in Palestine.

• 45:55Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, that makes sense. Were you there? There was a siege at the Church of the Anivity in Bethlehem, birthplace of Jesus. Um, maybe 2002, I remember.

• 46:05Speaker 02

  Oh yes, I was there. Yeah. Yeah, I had, uh, that's where I became especially close to the Palestinian Christian community. Cause in Bethany, there aren't that many Christians, but we had teachers from there and students from there, the boarding students. And when the siege happened, it wasn't just a siege on the church itself. What they claimed was that there were some fighters that were in the church who, which actually that's a Christian tradition, you know, for people to take refuge in a church. But the Israelis used that as, as a way to, well, they besieged the church for, and, but the whole town was under siege, not just the church. So that meant that the teachers who lived in the Bethlehem area couldn't get out of Bethlehem to come over to Bethany. People couldn't get food and medicines.

• 46:48Speaker 02

  After a while it became, uh, I would get calls and saying, you know, my neighbor has epilepsy and we cannot get a new medication for her. Can you find a way to get something in, you know, through a care organization into us? And finally, when the siege end during that time, I remember a doctor telling me how, describing how someone had been shot in his house and he was bleeding to death. And he was calling the doctor, you know, what do I do? What can I do? And the doctor literally heard him just bleed to death during that. Because no ambulance, nothing was allowed. And after the 40 days, roughly 40 days, which is ironic, I went in there and I met up with some of the people.

• 47:31Speaker 02

  The, everything was strewn with garbage all over the streets. The bullet holes, you know, what Israel likes to do is destroy. Not only did they, did they control the place, but they almost take glee. And we're not talking about Hamas time. We're not talking about, you know, 2023. We're talking about 2002. They would go through the town of Bethlehem and purposely, with their tanks, A P's, the smaller ones, like knock over the light poles or the things that are garnished with Christmas trees, you know, decorations and things, and knock them over in the middle of town or pull their bulldozer and smash a car. But again, that same resiliency of the Palestinians, the Samudra, I have a photograph. He's actually the father of one of the priests now in Bethlehem. And he's sitting on his car

• 48:14Speaker 02

  that had been smashed by the Israelis, just with a smile, kind of like, you're not going to stop us. We're going to carry on. You know, you did this to me, but I'm going to carry on.

• 48:23Tucker Carlson?

  There were people shot inside the church in the city.

• 48:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, the bell ringer there was shot dead. Yeah, and I know monks were there.

• 48:29Tucker Carlson?

  Was he a Christian?

• 48:30Speaker 02

  Of course. Yeah, yeah.

• 48:31Tucker Carlson?

  So that was the moment.

• 48:32Speaker 02

  And Christians were shot outside the church. I don't, I don't know if it was exactly during those 40 days, but a, a young 16 year old boy, an altar boy of the church, you know, there were curfews going on and they had tanks all, all around the city circling them. And he was out with his 70 year old cousin, I think it was, and they were just kicking a soccer ball. He was shot dead by a sniper. 16 year old Johnny Talja.

• 48:58Tucker Carlson?

  You remember his name?

• 48:59Speaker 02

  Of course. And also, there was another, Christine Saadah. Her father was the principal of the Orthodox School in Bet Sahur, Shepherd's Field. They were driving, and the Israeli soldiers who, that is Area A, right? If you want to talk about the politics of it. Technically, that means it was under full Palestinian control. They should have their police and everything. No. Israeli Jeeps were there, and they mistakenly thought that was a car of some militant. So they shot up the car. His wife was injured, he was injured as well, and his 12-year-old daughter Christine was killed.

• 49:32Tucker Carlson?

  What? What did they do wrong?

• 49:35Speaker 02

  They thought, the Israelis thought that was somebody that was gonna do something bad.

• 49:41Tucker Carlson?

  Was anyone ever punished for it?

• 49:42Speaker 02

  Of course not. Of course not. I had an incident in front of our school, where they had put us on curfew. And our girls, the bedroom of the border girls, were on the main street. And I look out, it was curfew time, but I saw, and there were soldiers sort of marching up and down the street. A handful of them, not like a brigade. And there was a man walking up to the soldier, and I thought, oh my goodness. It was a Palestinian man. It turned out he was deaf mute, and he wasn't from Bethany, he was from Hebron, but he had relatives there. He didn't understand what was going on, because they call curfew anytime, and then you gotta get off the street. So the soldier shot him, and the guy, the man's a deaf mute, and he ended up getting shot in the eye. He survived, but he was shot in the eye, right outside our door.

• 50:24Speaker 02

  And for all, for a couple of years, we had a tank in front of the school. And often, I had to...

• 50:31Tucker Carlson?

  Why was, were the girls dangerous at the school?

• 50:33Speaker 02

  Well, the Palestinians are dangerous. All Palestinian, yeah, yeah, five-year-old girls are dangerous. But what was danger to us is Mount of Olives. This was before the, or while the process of the wall being built, there had been a situation where some settlers... Probably the followers of Ben Gavir, they had taken a little truck and they had explosives and they had gone in front of a high school on, um, on the top of the Mount of Olives. Fortunately, it was stopped before they blew it up. So every day I remember for at least six months, because they'd also done something similar near us, near the Mali Adamim settlement, I would actually go, we had a fairly large property and there's like gates on either side where the girls would come in.

• 51:17Speaker 02

  Every morning I'd be up at six in the morning and go make sure that there, I didn't see like a little bomb someplace, cause that was what was going on. And totally within

• 51:26Tucker Carlson?

  Wait, the settlers, you worried the settlers would bomb the school?

• 51:29Speaker 02

  They attempted to, they attempted to. There were a couple of occasions. Palestinians.

• 51:34Tucker Carlson?

  But kids.

• 51:36Speaker 02

  Doesn't matter. It's, uh, doesn't matter at all.

• 51:39Tucker Carlson?

  I remember thinking in 2002, when the bell ringer was shot, um, in the church on the site where Jesus was born, so it's kind of the center of Christianity, that and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre where he was buried. Um, I remember thinking like, are American Christians in the United States, whose weapons, literally they were using AR-15 platforms for this, American rifles, American ammunition, American uniforms.

• 52:05Speaker 02

  Caterpillar bulldozers.

• 52:06Tucker Carlson?

  American bulldozers. Are they really going to put up with this? Was there any pushback from the United States?

• 52:13Speaker 02

  The problem is, is the, um, the lack of awareness that our mass media

• 52:17Tucker Carlson?

  I worked at CNN at the time and I interviewed Benjamin Netanyahu about this at the time. I'll never forget it.

• 52:23Speaker 02

  And what was his response?

• 52:24Tucker Carlson?

  Terrorists, like we do, we have to do, no apologies. But I said, but that's our church.

• 52:29Speaker 02

  And it's also propaganda.

• 52:31Tucker Carlson?

  And the Christians have nothing to do with this, so what are you doing? And it was like, shut up antisemite. But I remember thinking maybe, I mean, I'm just some like semi agnostic news douche from CNN, but like where are the ministers on this?

• 52:47Speaker 02

  I think a lot of times, they didn't want to get involved. It's the same fear that the mainstream media seems to have is that we don't want to rock the boat. And it's and also, to be fair, because the mainstream media doesn't do its job fully, people are given a very distorted picture of events. So they don't know what's happened or going on. Or this is a kind of a minor example, but at that time period, my brother was coming up for a job at ABC News, and there was a story on the Page Six, New York Post, George's crazy, my name at that time was Maria, George's crazy sister Maria. And what they said, it was like the Drudge Report, it's another word came from that

• 53:28Speaker 02

  kind of thing, that I had said that Israeli soldiers were raping women in Bethlehem. Point of fact, someone had contacted me about that in an email from America and said, did you hear anything about any, anything going on like that? And I said, no, you know, we have a lot of difficulties. I do know where they've gone into doctor's clinics, and they've like broken the sonogram machine, and they they put graffiti on it, went to the bathroom on there. The same kind of things that they're doing in Gaza, they were doing it in the early 2000s. Raiding people's homes for to have a vantage point, and then steal the things in there and herd the family into one room. And so I said, but, you know, I said, well, let me check it out. I haven't heard any stories like that.

• 54:12Speaker 02

  And I contacted friends in Bethlehem, said, no, no. The Christians said, no, nothing like that has happened. And I wrote back to that person and said that, but it didn't matter. They put it that's what comes out on the news is what they want to come out in the news.

• 54:23Tucker Carlson?

  So this was someone trying to keep your brother from getting a job at ABC News?

• 54:27Speaker 02

  Either to keep it or to keep him in line, right? You don't want to step out and say anything against Israel.

• 54:33Tucker Carlson?

  What, did you talk to your brother about it?

• 54:36Speaker 02

  It's a difficult conversation, and I think it's probably better for him to say why or he does. I think, I think it's the, it's not, it's not his problem. I think it's a problem in all of mainstream media. And it's certainly a great problem right now. I mean, you know, and even with this. We're dealing, now it's becoming a lot of publicity on the star, even though it is being distorted. I actually watched the news this morning and James Stavridis is on and he's talking about it's all Hamas and they show the emaciated hostage. And as if, you know, we would, everything would be okay if only Hamas would release the hostage and that's the starvation. When it's taking place, millions of people are being starved. Babies are dying there and we're focused, God, I hope the hostage gets freed. He should get

• 55:21Speaker 02

  freed. And he should get freed and Israel should remove themselves from Gaza and allow the food to get in. And that's, and Christians should be pushing for that. And I think we are seeing that to some degree now, but it's still obscuring the main point. Like I said, the great, the unspoken thing when I talk to all my friends on the West Bank now is that, is that they know we're next, that it's gonna happen. And it will happen. Maybe we'll go back to that time where it'll be more like, they play a long game, you know, even with the settlement building. We'll build and then if America gives a little bit of pushback, okay, we stop for a while and then we start again. So maybe even in the West Bank for now, if there's, hopefully will be some resolution with a ceasefire

• 56:03Speaker 02

  and bringing food into Gaza, that in the West Bank that they'll step back for a little while. But that doesn't mean that in another few months, there'll be some provocation. Like I said, they've already wiped out thousands of people from refugee camps until Kadam and Janine. They're making life very difficult. In many towns in Taiba, in Bethlehem, water is not given to the city. So you don't have water unless you have your water tanks and there's no rain. You know, when I first moved to Jerusalem and you do your laundry, you hang it outside and I came there in May, there'd no rain until October, if you're lucky. So those water tanks aren't getting filled during the summertime. And so, and Israel controls the access to the water to the Palestinian towns. So if they decide

• 56:46Speaker 02

  they only get it once a week, you only get it once a week, while they have swimming pools in their settlements and green plush grass that Christian Zionists are paying for.

• 56:55Tucker Carlson?

  Have you, um, you know, a lot of Christians in the Holy Land? How many support the government of Israel? Do you know?

• 57:04Speaker 02

  The Palestinians within Israel?

• 57:05Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. Christians support the government of Israel.

• 57:09Speaker 02

  I can't, I, I don't know that they would be, any that really would. What's the, what's the, especially now? I mean, they're literally throwing out Palestinian representatives.

• 57:21Tucker Carlson?

  So in the US, there's a sense that Christians support this program?

• 57:24Speaker 02

  Of course not. And, and to the, you know, when I first moved there in 98, there was hope for peace. And there was, there was a much stronger peace movement within Israel. People who recognized not just a cold peace, but that we can live together. And we should work towards that. But that's certainly been abolished.

• 57:41Tucker Carlson?

  It's just so strange. I lived in DC for all this, but like at the, you know, the final decade of the Cold War, there were a lot of Jews in the Soviet Union who were being persecuted. Well, everyone in the Soviet Union was being persecuted, including the Jews. And, um,

• 57:56Speaker 02

  And they came to Israel?

• 57:57Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, they came to Israel, they came to the United States. And there were Jewish groups in the US and in Israel that I supported then and I support now, who said, we got to get our people out of there and help them. They were called Refuseniks.

• 58:08Speaker 02

  Right.

• 58:09Tucker Carlson?

  And my dad worked in this actually. And I thought that was great.

• 58:12Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 58:13Tucker Carlson?

  You don't see that with any Christian group, with Christians in the Middle East. There's no Christian group in the United States that I'm aware of. It's like, hey, those are our people, maybe we should help them.

• 58:20Speaker 02

  No, they are very, in fact, there was just a conference down in Atlanta. There's something called Churches for Middle East Peace. And there's a group like Telos Group. There's Christians for a Free Palestine, but they're very small and they're not so much part of the institute, you know, the, the hierarchy of the church. But to us, we had Pope Francis did speak out. And I think certainly the Catholic Church in America has to let, do a lot more as an institution. I mean, we should have a Christian AIPAC group. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Going on.

• 58:49Tucker Carlson?

  Like you're not allowed to shoot up the Church of the Nativity. Sorry. I mean, in, even if you're agnostic on the politics of it or whatever, which is fine. Maybe preferable, but you can't do that to Christians. How about now?

• 59:02Speaker 02

  I agree a hundred percent. So we have to move to that. But again, to be, that gets back to the thing though, is that People don't always see the whole story. And we're just flooded with this message that those terrorists are coming to get us next, which is absurd. Has any member of Hamas or anybody of Palestinian come and threatened America as an American? No, that's not what they're about. The thing is that, but that's the tactic that's used is that we have to plaster them as being these jihadists when they're nothing like that.

• 59:36Tucker Carlson?

  Are they, I mean, I'm sure you've dealt with Hamas or no people who are, right? Are they religious fanatics? Are they jihadis?

• 59:46Speaker 02

  Not the people that I know. Like I said, when I, when I was again in, at the school, we had a couple of teachers, Muslim men, and there were some elections going on. And it wasn't Hamas then, it was, it was the social party or something. It was definitely a religion, Muslim religious party. I would have voted for those guys because they weren't corrupt. They wanted to serve their people and that's what it was about. So I'm not saying it doesn't happen anywhere. I'm not totally ingrained in the community, but I don't, it doesn't, the vibe there isn't one of wanting everybody to convert to Islam and forcing it upon them at all, at all. And the purpose of Hamas is primarily to resist and to protect their people and their

• 1:00:31Speaker 02

  land.

• 1:00:32Tucker Carlson?

  It's not just Palestine and Israel where the Christian population has shrunk. It seems like throughout the Levant.

• 1:00:38Speaker 02

  Yes. We just, and I think that's part of the whole Greater Israel project. You know, isn't it so ironic that they've made such a big thing?

• 1:00:45Tucker Carlson?

  Targeting Christians.

• 1:00:47Speaker 02

  Targeting Christians, yeah. Well, targeting, to make control for Israel, for example, in Syria. I went to Syria in 2004 and I went to the place, the convent of Saint Ekl, where outside of Damascus in Malula, where the nuns were kidnapped by ISIS.

• 1:01:05Speaker 02

  Right? And the population is over 10% Christian and you have ancient Christian sites, as well as vibrant monastic communities there and vibrant churches and hospitals that were run by the church in Syria and Lebanon, right? And now, what have we done? And so Assad wasn't perfect, Saddam Hussein wasn't perfect. But the Middle East is not the United States. And we tried to impose ourselves there and get rid of these governments who, for all the repression, also kept the people to get, allowed minorities to survive there.

• 1:01:39Tucker Carlson?

  Including Christians?

• 1:01:39Speaker 02

  Including Christians, yeah, and Christians, yeah. And just recently, and so I find it mind boggling that now we take sanctions off after Assad is gone, and we put in place someone who was diash, who was part of ISIS. Does a leopard change its spots?

• 1:01:56Tucker Carlson?

  And how are the Christians in Syria doing that?

• 1:01:57Speaker 02

  Well, we had the bombing, we had the, actually, the very, if you may, I'd like to look for the statement from Patriarch John of Antioch, whose brother was a bishop and was kidnapped in 2010 and presumed to be dead now. And in June, there was a bombing, a suicide bombing in the church in Damascus, Mar Elias. And Patriarch John, he didn't pull any punches. He came and he said to the, he gave a eulogy, but he also called out the government because they didn't really condemn the act at all, the ISIS government. And, and he says, Apostle Paul in his epistles to the Romans, "For whether we live, we live to the Lord, and whether we die, we die to the Lord. The rock of

• 1:02:42Speaker 02

  our faith is the Lord who rose from the dead, and the martyrs who live, who lie before us today are children of the resurrection. They dwell in the divine light. They did not die, they are alive, they have passed on, even if in this horrific way, to the one whom they loved." He's living like we're supposed to live as Christians, is talking at it. The Christians there. But then he says, but I will say boldly, Mr. President, Abu Jalani Asharah, the former head of HTS, head of ISIS group. We deeply regret, Mr. President, that in the immediate aftermath of the crime, not a single government or state official was present at the scene, except for Mrs. Hind Kabouat, a Christian. We regret that deeply. We are an integral component of this nation,

• 1:03:27Speaker 02

  and we are here to stay. Let me remind you, the two archbishops of Aleppo, Boulos and Yohanna were kidnapped, and much was said at the time. The Malala nuns were also kidnapped. And here we still are. This highness crime was committed the day before yesterday, and we will remain here. We appeal to you, Mr. President, for a government that does not get distracted by issuing unnecessary decisions, unworthy of mention from the sacred royal door. We call for a government that takes responsibility and shares in the suffering of its people. Mr. President, the people are hungry. If some have not told you, I am telling you, honorable, come and take care of your people. I think that's pretty bold, for a guy who had his brother kidnapped, just had a number of parishioners bombed,

• 1:04:12Speaker 02

  and he's telling someone who has been known to be a terrorist, calling him out.

• 1:04:17Tucker Carlson?

  That's pretty bold.

• 1:04:18Speaker 02

  That's pretty bold.

• 1:04:18Tucker Carlson?

  I would say that's pretty bold. So the government of Syria now, the government run by the former ISIS leader is pro-Israel.

• 1:04:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, I think that's the whole plan. And, you know, when you get to it, they talked about from the river to the sea. Right? Where did that statement come from? Look at the Charter of Likud, the party of Netanyahu. They very clearly say, from the Jordan to the Mediterranean is going to be Israel. And really, from the Nile to the Euphrates, which means going into Iraq, into the edges of Egypt, and up to so. So. That's why we had the war in Iraq. Why did our, our young people have to die? Why did we have to spend so much money on a war? I was supposed to visit Iraq in, in early 2000s.

• 1:05:11Speaker 02

  Our school secretary, her father was born in Mosul and he was an Assyrian Christian. And so we, this is an opportunity to go and visit him. And that's when they started chopping off the heads and doing things. So we thought better of making that part of the trip. But how many, how many Christians were displaced from Iraq during that time?

• 1:05:28Tucker Carlson?

  Almost all of them.

• 1:05:28Speaker 02

  Almost all of them. And now in Syria, you're seeing the same thing, which in 2004, I saw vibrant communities. I saw people who could live even under Assad as Christians. Now they're in fear for what's going to happen to them.

• 1:05:41Tucker Carlson?

  I, I mean, it's hard to see this as an accident. So West Bank, Gaza, Iraq.

• 1:05:47Speaker 02

  Some sort of plan.

• 1:05:48Tucker Carlson?

  Syria, Lebanon, all places where US foreign policy chutchers at the behest of Israel see the destruction of Christian communities. I'm guessing that's like not an accident.

• 1:06:00Speaker 02

  No, not at all. It's definitely part of a plan, but the thing is, why should we be supporting that plan? And also, you know, we're focusing on the Christians, but I said, I had, we had two girls who are Russian background, who lived in the cities of Israel. And what you've seen the last 20 years too, instead of that nascent peace movement, instead of people who tolerated their neighbor and could live with their neighbor, we, it's become a totally militant society. The girls I know that are there now, it's a lot of aggression and a lot of hatred. And how many Israelis have, you're having big problems in Greece now. I don't know if you've seen the Dem-a-Greek, right?

• 1:06:37Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:38Speaker 02

  People are parading through the straits because Israelis have left Israel, even though they're the ones that have all the defense, right? All the protection, even, what kind of a country is Netanyahu trying to have? Do you really want to leave, live in a militarized country that's always in fear? And always thinking that they should, they're under attack when they don't have to be.

• 1:06:59Tucker Carlson?

  You say it's more hostile. You see these videos of Christians, priests with crucifixes around their necks, getting spit on in Jerusalem. Are those real?

• 1:07:08Speaker 02

  Yes. And I mean, that's happened before, you know, even from the first days that I was there. There'd be occasionally something like that. And occasionally there were graffiti put on walls and, yeah, sprayed on, Jesus a monkey, 2013, on the church. Yeah, that was right. In Taqwa, where the multiplication of the loaves and the fish, a Catholic community graffiti there, talking about getting rid of the idols or something like that, some sort of Old Testament statement, and burning, burning a statue of the Virgin Mary in parts of the monastery there. So, but that was a small segment. Like even at that time, Ben Gavir and Smotrich were like sort of

• 1:07:49Speaker 02

  outcasts in Israel. They weren't the prominent members of Israeli society and what they represented in those religious zealots of it. But now, they're, they are in power. And they're dominating everything. And, you know, they say sometimes that if, if the Israelis didn't have the Palestinians, there'd be a civil war between the secular and the religious Jews, which is true. That's what happened.

• 1:08:14Tucker Carlson?

  Do, oh, there's enormous tension. Enormous. Do you know anyone who's been spit on? Any Christians who've been spit on?

• 1:08:21Speaker 02

  Me.

• 1:08:22Tucker Carlson?

  You've been spit on?

• 1:08:23Speaker 02

  Of course, yes.

• 1:08:24Tucker Carlson?

  What do you mean, of course? That's disgusting.

• 1:08:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, but that's the least of it. That's, that's the least of it.

• 1:08:31Tucker Carlson?

  But again, I'm saying this as a perspective, from the perspective of someone who lives in a majority Christian country that's paying for all of this. So that's kind of the...

• 1:08:39Speaker 02

  That's the, or I'll tell you a story. My father is a priest, right, a Greek Orthodox, which, and he was wearing a collar suit. He visited one time and we village the town of, we visited the town of Taiba.

• 1:08:50Speaker 02

  And it, uh, there was a checkpoint before you enter into the town.

• 1:08:53Tucker Carlson?

  Can you give us perspective, where is Tyba?

• 1:08:54Speaker 02

  Tyba is biblical Ephraim. It's when Christ, uh, after he raised Lazarus from the dead, he went about 10 miles to the northeast of Jerusalem, Bethany area, to prepare himself before he would come back to Jerusalem for his crucifixion. Ephraim is, is known as the town of, um, of compassion, of solace. Even in the time of Saladin, they came, they actually was called Ephraim. It's now called Tyba, which means the good or the beautiful. So it was, it sort of had that reputation. So he went there to prepare himself for his crucifixion. 20 miles, not even 20 miles from, from Jerusalem.

• 1:09:28Tucker Carlson?

  Interesting. So it's your father who was-

• 1:09:30Speaker 02

  My dad, yeah.

• 1:09:31Tucker Carlson?

  A pretty famous-

• 1:09:32Speaker 02

  An American priest, yeah. Dressed as a priest. And my mom was there too. So we were going to drive it. So there's a checkpoint sort of at the entrance of the town. And then you have many olive groves, which by the way, uh, I was just talking to someone the other day, uh, they have about 8,000 acres of land, let's say, and over a quarter of it has been confiscated either by settlers and the army allowing them to take their olive groves. And there's, they have no recourse. There's nothing-

• 1:09:56Tucker Carlson?

  Who owns the land?

• 1:09:58Speaker 02

  The Palestinian Christian families.

• 1:10:01Tucker Carlson?

  And it's been confiscated from Christian families?

• 1:10:03Speaker 02

  Well, confiscate, what do you do when they have guns and you don't?

• 1:10:07Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know. You, you call your patron church in the West and you say, raise a stink. Call Ted Cruz.

• 1:10:13Speaker 02

  Well, we called Mike Huckabee. Mike Huckabee came, right? And then the only thing the-

• 1:10:19Tucker Carlson?

  So what did Mike Huckabee, he's the US ambassador to Israel?

• 1:10:22Speaker 02

  He said he was very concerned because at the, the, also it happened, which they didn't, there's three churches in, in Tyba, an Orthodox, Greek, Catholic and Catholic. And there's also the ruins of a fourth century church that still partially stands and people will still go there sometime, not full services, but just to be at the spot. It's a place that was built by St. Helen in the fourth century, Church of St. George. Settlers burned the brush and also there's a cemetery right next to it, burned that area.

• 1:10:52Tucker Carlson?

  They burned the cemetery?

• 1:10:54Speaker 02

  Everything's stone there, so nothing burns, but they burned the area around there. So you have grass and brush that was burned. And not only that, I was shocked when I saw how much they've infiltrated. It's one thing, the entrance of town and you've taken the open land, the olive groves. They have, in that town, there's a beer factory, a distillery, a hotel, and Bedouins are living, have been forced off their land around there and are now living- With allowance of the Christians to be there because they have no place else to go and no one to protect them. So Ambassador Huckabee comes and he's very concerned because an attack on a church and also that same week, a Palestinian American had been shot

• 1:11:35Speaker 02

  dead by settlers or beaten to death, Saif Musallat, 20 miles, not even 20, a couple miles away. And he was going to address that as a Palestinian American to see that Israel would investigate. Nobody's been arrested or done.

• 1:11:48Tucker Carlson?

  An American citizen?

• 1:11:49Speaker 02

  Yes, he's from Florida. He's often, just like I'm a Greek-

• 1:11:53Tucker Carlson?

  An American citizen was beaten to death?

• 1:11:55Speaker 02

  By settlers.

• 1:11:57Tucker Carlson?

  And no one was arrested?

• 1:11:58Speaker 02

  No, never happens. Down in Hebron, just there. And the concern, my concern in talking to you-

• 1:12:04Tucker Carlson?

  And we're sure that happened?

• 1:12:05Speaker 02

  We're absolutely sure that happened. Yeah.

• 1:12:07Tucker Carlson?

  How can an American citizen be beaten to death in an Israeli controlled area, paid for by the United States, and nobody does anything about it?

• 1:12:15Speaker 02

  Well, this is our problem, isn't it?

• 1:12:19Tucker Carlson?

  I'm sorry, I keep stepping on your story. So Ambassador Huckabee shows up.

• 1:12:23Speaker 02

  He shows up and he says, you know, he's very concerned about what happened and we're going to check it. You know, the next day, settlers were there with cows, marching through the town with their cows. So it shows that they, they are in control, in control. And not only that, just a couple of days ago, this is a week after he's been there, you know, in the Bible, there's a story of Ruth. One of the women in Tyba is married to a, she's a Greek American, married, they met in school in Boston, they got married, he was going to business school, her husband, he came back to Palestine to establish the business. She goes with her husband, becomes Palestinian, you know, going to care for the

• 1:13:02Speaker 02

  people of his nation. She was, she got a PhD at Harvard. She's written books about the Holy Land and with the, the, the sales of those books, little by little, she visited parishes in America and she raised money so they could build 30 homes for, for Orthodox people. So those homes-

• 1:13:25Speaker 02

  Were cars of the people in those homes were burned the other day. And there's graffiti again on the wall. And it says, it names another village and it says, you're gonna regret this. And, and the rest, I talked to two Israeli people who are from Israel and they couldn't even decipher the, the top part. So I, you know, cause it's very interesting. A lot of the settlers are actually people from Brooklyn, New York.

• 1:13:47Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:47Speaker 02

  They have dual citizenship. And, and they go back and forth between us freely. They can go to Ben Gurion Airport, go through Tel Aviv to come to the settlements in the West Bank. But those people in Taiba, who are actually American citizens as well, they can't go through Ben Gurion Airport.

• 1:14:06Tucker Carlson?

  How is it that an American citizen can't go through Ben Gurion Airport?

• 1:14:10Speaker 02

  Because he's also a Palestinian.

• 1:14:11Tucker Carlson?

  Are you sure?

• 1:14:12Speaker 02

  I'm absolutely sure. Yes. They have to go through Jordan. And right now, um, and through a border that is controlled on one side by Israel. And right now it's so difficult, they only open for, I've been told from eight to, to one or two, and you've got thousands of people trying to come through, right? So you could be there for hours and you may not get through that day. People make plans to, you know, the only way Palestinians can do anything to be free is to go to another country. I mean, even for a vacation or something, you don't feel free in your own country. I used to feel that when I was living there in the summer times. That's why I would travel to different countries because within Israel and Palestine, you feel like you're in prison. You can't feel like a person.

• 1:14:53Speaker 02

  And so if you have the opportunity to go away, to breathe a little bit, you do that.

• 1:14:58Tucker Carlson?

  Since you are an American and you obviously know people in positions of authority, when you come back to the U.S. and tell these stories at dinner, what do people say?

• 1:15:07Speaker 02

  At dinner, they, they show concern when you tell the story. But again, it's, maybe it seems too distant for people. Or I have also, you know what? Since I, I've talked to people in our churches and I'm trying really now to focus on organizing, because people say, how can we help? Now they're really seeing the, the, the gross things that are going on. Where do we send money? What do we do? Yes, people need money, but what we really need is political change. So I'm sort of bordering on three different congressional districts. And we've tried to set up appointments with our congressman. They've thrown us off. I'm talking about middle aged women trying to go see their congressman. They don't want, when you tell them what you want to talk about, they don't want to make an appointment for you to be able to educate them.

• 1:15:52Speaker 02

  I did, and then I wrote a letter to my congressman, Nicholas Langworthy. He writes back an Israeli bullet point, an AIPAC bullet point, uh, reply. Basically saying, you know, Hamas is the problem and, and, you know, it's okay to send weapons over there. So, but little by little, we have to go and keep educating. If enough people keep knocking on the doors and saying, uh, we don't like what we're doing. Why are we sending billions of dollars to Israel? And then we're cutting Medicaid, we're cutting, people don't have jobs in his district. In fact, I was listening in, he did a phone, uh, town meeting or whatever. And most of the people were concerned because they, they didn't have enough money for groceries or, you know, what, what was going to be done with their healthcare in the coming months

• 1:16:38Speaker 02

  and years. And then, no, no questions about, he didn't take my question on the thing I wanted to ask about Israel and why we were sending more, more offensive weapons. We're not talking about, don't play this game. Nothing wrong with the iron dome and protecting yourself. You're in a tough neighborhood. I'm talking about assault rifles, which was just passed again to give assault rifles that Ben, that Ben Gavir then just gives into the settlers who then kill the Palestinians in the West Bank. And we're financing that. So some of the people, have you not had enough? You really want this done in your name? But the politicians make it hard too. They don't want to hear it. And you have, and I understand when I lived there in the early 2000s, Congressman Daralisa

• 1:17:23Speaker 02

  and Carolyn Maloney was still in office at the time. They were there on an Israeli junket. I think it was the 60th anniversary of something, but they, they were willing to come and see me, but they wouldn't come to Bethany because that was over the wall or the wall was being built then. That was in the West Bank. So we met on the Mount of Olives and they actually came with me and they saw the wall was being constructed then, and they saw how people were passing through the rocks. And they had not good things to say about Israel, but do you think their vote would have changed?

• 1:17:51Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 1:17:51Speaker 02

  Not gonna happen. Not gonna happen.

• 1:17:54Tucker Carlson?

  I, once again, threw you off track when you were explaining, um, visiting with your parents.

• 1:18:00Speaker 02

  Right. So we come in, we're heading into Tybago and the soldiers, because the reason the soldiers are there because just outside of Tybago, on one side, you have the settlement of Rimonim, swimming pools and beautiful homes, and the other direction, the huge settlement of Ofra. So these are in the West Bank, in areas that's supposed to be Palestinian. And so the soldiers there are supposedly protecting them, but they block the entrance to Tybago. Or, you know, check who's going in and out. And you're going, so we drove, they first weren't gonna let us go. They said, no, no, no, you can't come through this way. You gotta go around Ofra, go like 20 miles, then come back another road to get into Tybago. I said, no, no, they're only in the country for a couple of weeks. They're only here for a few hours. We're going in this way. Finally, they let us in.

• 1:18:45Speaker 02

  And then when we go, and we said, I'm only gonna be a couple of hours. We're visiting families there and we'll come back out. When we come back out, the same game. The soldiers just standing there, they play this game where, um, to show that they're in control. There was no other cars behind us. They just said, no, they wouldn't let us pass. They're just gonna wait for a while. Um, and finally, my father, temperamental Greek, got out of the car and went up to the soldier and said, what is this? I'm an American citizen. I'm a, we just wanna go back to Jerusalem. And they basically just laughed in his face. Eventually, we were able to move, but the scorn they have for Americans is really something else.

• 1:19:24Tucker Carlson?

  They scorn for?

• 1:19:26Speaker 02

  That's not the only incident where I've seen something like that, where they mock America.

• 1:19:31Tucker Carlson?

  Mock America? America pays for the whole thing?

• 1:19:33Speaker 02

  Well, thank you very much.

• 1:19:37Tucker Carlson?

  But there's no love for America?

• 1:19:40Speaker 02

  Well, I, look, I have seen, sadly to say, during that time, American soldiers, veterans that would be at the checkpoints and they'd be sort of joking with the soldiers. So there was probably some camaraderie with certain people who were probably Christian Zionists or of that mentality. So they were pro-Israel. If you have that view, then it's okay. But in general, no, they don't have any love for Americans.

• 1:20:04Tucker Carlson?

  Really?

• 1:20:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, that was my perception.

• 1:20:06Tucker Carlson?

  I think most Americans would be surprised to learn that.

• 1:20:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's about time that it changes.

• 1:20:13Tucker Carlson?

  Why do you think they're scorned for Americans in a country supported by Israel? I mean, supported by America.

• 1:20:18Speaker 02

  I think that's just a part of the arrogance of the country. They think they're due for everything. There's not much gratitude.

• 1:20:28Speaker 02

  We're past that time, you know, because you're bringing up something now when I think about it. The time period when Joe Biden was a young politician and there was that warm feeling towards Israel and it was sort of the underdog. But we're way beyond that time now.

• 1:20:42Speaker 02

  You know, so that's where the sense of before, but there might have been a sense we're thankful to America, but over the years, as this whole progression of the greater land of Israel and the dominance of another people and having the power to do it, there's no more of that gratitude.

• 1:21:00Tucker Carlson?

  Have you been attacked for saying things like this?

• 1:21:04Speaker 02

  In which way?

• 1:21:04Tucker Carlson?

  In the United States.

• 1:21:05Speaker 02

  Well, like that little slander then, I mean, I'm sure I, well, we'll see what happens after this, I'm sure. I actually come to think of it, you know, we talked before about in the early 2000s, my father was a priest at a large church in New York City. And he, there was a gathering of a few hundred people and I talked about the situation in Palestine and everybody was receptive. But then there was a newspaper that I believe was controlled by John Katsimatidis, who's a big fellow in New York City. They reported what I said, but they also watered it down a lot. There's like this idea, we don't want to go too far and say anything negative about Israel. And that was back then, that's 15 years ago, 20 years ago.

• 1:21:50Speaker 02

  So it's not being attacked necessarily, but it's not letting you be truthful about things.

• 1:21:55Tucker Carlson?

  Do you think Christians in other Arab countries are treated better than Christians in Israel and Palestine?

• 1:22:02Speaker 02

  Well, I can only go from the, my times of being there in Lebanon too. At the time I was there, there were churches and it was, they were part of the society. So there was nothing wrong with being a Christian. And in Syria, when I would now, now who knows what's going to happen, but certainly the time when I was there.

• 1:22:19Tucker Carlson?

  Well, Israel controls those countries now.

• 1:22:22Speaker 02

  Well, they're, they're trying to make inroads. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, what did they do first? They bombed after Assad went down, they, they get rid of all the military. So what is the point of Abu Jellani being there now? The ISIS head without, who is he, who is he serving? Is he serving the Syrian people or the Israeli people?

• 1:22:39Tucker Carlson?

  What's the answer?

• 1:22:43Speaker 02

  Right now, it looks like he's serving Israel.

• 1:22:46Tucker Carlson?

  What's so surprising is that you think of, or in the United States, people think of Israel as like this foothold of Western civilization in the Middle East. And so you would imagine the Christians would do a lot better under Israeli control than they would under Assad's control.

• 1:23:00Speaker 02

  But no, that's not the case at all. That's it. Definitely not the case at all. It's, yeah. I'd like to talk a little bit more about the Palestinians themselves.

• 1:23:15Tucker Carlson?

  I would love to hear it.

• 1:23:16Speaker 02

  And their former resistance, because I, I think one of the reasons I was grateful to be able to come on is to really give a picture of them and the people as they are. And with one thing that's really struck me, I know Muslims, I know Beduins, I know all during this time where they've really been suffering, what I really get since from them is their real belief in God and that their life is in God's hands. And there's such a humility and, and obedience to their creator and an understanding that this life is not the only one. And there's a real beauty to that, that I think so much of the world is missing. And I, and I think even in sort of, there's a deeper sense to all that's even going on right now, right? We're in the heart of Jerusalem, in the heart of where Christ came. There was a reason for that.

• 1:24:01Speaker 02

  And now we have a situation where the people who were the closest to God are being destroyed. In a simple sense, you know, I live next to the Mount of Olives. And when you go down the Mount of Olives, it's where they said, "Hosanna in the highest. Here comes Christ." And often I've gone to parish churches in Palestine and the whole community is, they know all the service and they're singing it themselves. And it reminds me as those people that were on the Mount of Olives greeting the Creator, greeting the Messiah, who is coming for their salvation and honoring Him. And that's what they're doing to this day. And what we're doing instead is destroying that.

• 1:24:44Speaker 02

  And what does that mean for the world when we let that go? The last time I was there, I went through Amman, not through Tel Aviv. So I had to go through the border and then I spent a night. And in the early morning, I was being driven to the airport from Madaba, where there's a mosaic from the 6th century that shows you the places in the Holy Land, the map in Madaba. And Madaba is not a very big city. And as I'm going out of it, you very quickly, before you get to the airport, come to lands that are still being grazed by shepherds. And I started to weep because to me, that's so emblematic of what the Lord really wanted us to be like, in touch with the land,

• 1:25:24Speaker 02

  recognizing that our life depends on what we grow and what we produce and what we do. And those kind of people are the ones who I hear from now who say, "They're suffering. They're literally gonna be killed, but they have so much more courage and faith than you find in so much of America and in the West, which we've lost." And to me, it's sort of like this whole war is in a way, we're killing the Christ message. And that message, you can, whatever your theology is, is one of compassion and tolerance and love, and the world is becoming smaller in that way. And I think people sense that,

• 1:26:09Speaker 02

  right? The, how we, how we act to each other and to our neighbor. There's so, and, and the very fact that people, politicians, and people can listen to doctors, listen to what's going on, and still somehow have a blank face and think it's okay. How did we come to such a point of darkness?

• 1:26:28Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I mean, it does seem like part of the broader spiritual war.

• 1:26:32Speaker 02

  Yes, absolutely. I think so.

• 1:26:34Tucker Carlson?

  What happens to the 2 million people who live in Gaza?

• 1:26:38Speaker 02

  Well, I can't say that I'm a Trump fan, but I, you know, he's a wheeler dealer. He wants to get that Nobel Peace Prize. He's got people with a lot of money in Saudi Arabia and Qatar that have his ear. We don't have to build a Riviera. Build it for the Palestinians. They go and rebuild the area and let it be, and, and reconstruct for a Palestinian nation. Why is that such an outrageous idea? Why, why, why does Israel think that the people of Palestine have to be their enemy? They have, they say, go to Jordan, go to Egypt. What's the difference another 20 kilometers in? That's really what we're talking about.

• 1:27:18Speaker 02

  The difference between Amman and Tel Aviv is 20 miles at the most, the drive between the two. So what are the difference between the people that live in Palestine, that live in Jericho and Bethlehem, and someone who lives in Amman? And what's the difference between someone who lives in Gaza? So give them a defined border and, and have the people of other countries, the Arabs too, should support the rebuilding of Gaza, and, and have Israel remove their military from there and give, and let Gaza have their freedom to be able to develop. Those people, there are some of the most educated people in Gaza. I mean, how many of us have read, I hope, the stories of Mossab Abu Toha, or Refat,

• 1:27:59Speaker 02

  who was, was killed, the poet? Beautiful, graceful people. Bisan Aden now, who's on every day on, maybe not everybody sees her, not in the mainstream media, but these are beautiful young Palestinians who are still trying to live and have joy and see something beautiful in the midst of all their suffering. So there's no reason that the money can be there. And if Trump, he's not a politician, he's a businessman. Work it out. I mean, it's a, I don't know that that's gonna happen, but our politicians certainly haven't done it.

• 1:28:31Tucker Carlson?

  What's the current plan for those people? It's probably not to raise a trillion dollars and rebuild them a model society.

• 1:28:36Speaker 02

  No, but I mean, so what is a plan? Are we in such a world where we can look on live TV that too many people are just slowly gonna die now? Or are you gonna transfer them? And why should they be transferred? Why should, why should they have to leave their land that they've been in for centuries? And in Gaza, you know Gaza is, as much as the West Bank, Gaza, the Saint Porphyrius Church from the third century was bombed. We also have in the Orthodox.

• 1:29:06Tucker Carlson?

  How did the, how did a Christian church get bombed?

• 1:29:10Speaker 02

  Because it's part of Palestinians. And all there, I've been there before. And basically that it's the Holy Family Church and the Baptist Church, they're all pretty much in the same area. So you can't make a mistake. And Christians through.

• 1:29:25Tucker Carlson?

  But you don't think that was an accident?

• 1:29:27Speaker 02

  No, nothing's an accident. I mean, occasionally a shell might go off, but no. And certainly the last time with the one where they pointed at the cross. You don't miss that. About the Holy Family Church, the cross didn't topple, but literally inches from it. And I have, you know, in, in Nablus at Jacob's Well, there's a large church now. And there's crosses on the front face in circles. And the monk always points out to us when I go there, there's a tank shell that was pointed, that was aimed at that cross. You can still see it from an earlier confrontation in Nablus. So don't tell me these soldiers are, make mistakes.

• 1:30:06Speaker 02

  You could, the, the church in Gaza has, you know, it's pointed and the cross is there in the middle of it by itself. So it's hard to believe that it wasn't a person.

• 1:30:18Tucker Carlson?

  So what would you, what would you say to Ted Cruz, the self-proclaimed Christian, supporting tank shells fired at crosses? Like, what is that?

• 1:30:26Speaker 02

  Well, I would say, you know, again, it's the disabuse of the notion. It's those same talking points that the congressman gave. Well, but Hamas is the problem and their terrorists. Well, Hamas is not the problem. So, so don't use that as an excuse anymore. And you, we have to defend Christian values, American values. And dignity, freedom for people. Isn't that what we're all about?

• 1:30:51Speaker 02

  Having their rights.

• 1:30:54Tucker Carlson?

  What, um, what happens on the Temple Mount? What is the Temple Mount? Can you explain what that is?

• 1:31:01Speaker 02

  Well, the Temple Mount is the area where the temple existed at the time of Christ.

• 1:31:06Tucker Carlson?

  In Jerusalem.

• 1:31:07Speaker 02

  In Jerusalem, right. Directly, I lived in the convent of St. Mary Magdalene on the Mount of Olives. Directly in front of me is the Dome of the Rock and there's the old walls, the old, the walls of the old city. And within that is the area where the temple was, had been existed, right? There was also a Byzantine church at one point in the fifth century. Because where the Dome of the Rock is, is where Abraham sacrificed or was going to sacrifice his son Isaac.

• 1:31:35Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:35Speaker 02

  So it's a holy to all, among these traditions.

• 1:31:37Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:31:38Speaker 02

  And so on the left side, if you're looking from the convent where is that? Is the Wailing Wall. That's a portion of the temple that still exists, a wall. And so some, just like the Christian Zionists, the Jews want the temple rebuilt.

• 1:31:53Speaker 02

  So I know Christians who have been there, who, who will take a sign and go, take the crescent off the dome and say, we'll put a cross on there. It's natural to all of them to do. So there is this movement to rebuild the temple. All the time I was there, I heard about that, but, um, and there were small movement of it, of.

• 1:32:12Tucker Carlson?

  But there's a mosque where the temple was.

• 1:32:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, now it's Al-Azka Mosque. It's the third holiest site for Muslims in the world. And a lot of confrontations you have is because Israel, Israel will control getting in and out, being able to go there. So, or they'll say only men over 50 can go to the mosque today. And there's a lot of confrontations there and people have been killed. So it is a mosque. Yeah, there's a functioning Al-Azka Mosque is there.

• 1:32:39Tucker Carlson?

  So you can't build the temple with the mosque there?

• 1:32:41Speaker 02

  No. And they say that they have the plans for rebuilding the temple and everything. And people like Ben Gavir, the minister who's a religious zealot, have gone on the Temple Mount. And it's a provocation. The area is controlled religiously by Jordan. But there's an organization that's responsible for that area.

• 1:33:03Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, so you hear people say, "We're going to rebuild the temple, the third temple." But there's a mosque there, so what's the plan for the mosque?

• 1:33:10Speaker 02

  Well, I guess it would be to blow it up.

• 1:33:12Tucker Carlson?

  What would... And then you just said that's the third holiest site in Islam.

• 1:33:16Speaker 02

  Well, Islam, of course. This would be a dark day for anybody.

• 1:33:19Tucker Carlson?

  So then what would happen if you blew up the third holiest site in Islam?

• 1:33:23Speaker 02

  Well, you could probably answer that better than me. It certainly would ignite a great conflict in the world.

• 1:33:30Tucker Carlson?

  I just want to say this out loud because people sort of blithely talk about it.

• 1:33:34Speaker 02

  Oh, what we're really coming to. And I think that's the problem with the Christian Zionists is that... What is your end game here? Their belief tells them, "That's okay. We want to have this third world war because we're going to be taken away. And we'll be okay, and we'll come back later after all the fighting's done." That's sort of basically what their theology tells them. And in the meantime, all the Jews are supposed to convert to their brand of Christianity or die in the consecration.

• 1:34:06Tucker Carlson?

  And so I'm asking you this because you're a nun.

• 1:34:09Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:34:09Tucker Carlson?

  That's not a Christian...

• 1:34:11Speaker 02

  It's not a Christian belief, no, or precepts, yeah.

• 1:34:16Tucker Carlson?

  Any idea where that came from, that idea?

• 1:34:18Speaker 02

  The Rapture?

• 1:34:19Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:20Speaker 02

  Well, like I said, originally, the idea of having the thousand-year kingdom is a heresy that was in the early church. But the real push of all that becomes from the 1830s. James Darby Schofield, or John Darby Schofield, it's a new theology that has no basis in the foundations of Christianity. It has nothing to do with it.

• 1:34:41Tucker Carlson?

  How do you think this story ends?

• 1:34:44Speaker 02

  It depends on us. And that's why, you know, maybe I, I, part of me wants to have that message of that we have to do something politically, the Christians have to wake up and tell their, their, because it's all in the hands of the United States, doesn't matter what any other country in the world does. If US protects Israel, this will continue. And we will get to that conclusion of the denouement, which will lead to a third world war, or something of that sort, for sure. So, but also in a spiritual sense, then we also have to recognize, what do we want to be as people? Do we want to follow the way of Christ? Or do we want to follow the way of a Christ who leads us to a better world?

• 1:35:26Speaker 02

  We live in this world as best we can in order to prepare for the worlds to come. Not, we don't look, Christ came and said, "My kingdom is not of this world." So if you're truly a believing Christian, you want to do all the things that will put you in good graces with God, when it, when it comes to judgment day, right? And that doesn't mean rebuilding the temple. It means living like a Christian and, and trying to build a society that lives by Christian principles, and your government acting as one that acts by Christian principles. And so that doesn't mean slaughtering other people and leading to their, to their cleansing.

• 1:36:05Tucker Carlson?

  I really appreciate you taking this time.

• 1:36:08Speaker 02

  I think that there's a, I appreciate you. I, I, I hope it does a little bit to open people's eyes. And I just want to, can I end with one thing?

• 1:36:15Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 1:36:16Speaker 02

  I think the only way, you know, there was the writer Ta-Nehisi Coates, who you may have differences, opinion on other things, but what really opened his eyes, he went with a writer's group to the West Bank, and went and saw how the Palestinians were living, and what the reality of the occupation was. And that got him to understand, we have to make some changes. And there have been changes in the black church communities, definitely, reaching out. I would like one, I think that we have to have many more people come and see, and not go on an AIPAC junket, but really go, and as Christians, tell your communities, "We want to go, and we want to go and visit our Palestinian Christian communities." And this might be a little, you could decide what you want to do with it.

• 1:36:57Speaker 02

  My dream thing would be to have a trip, perhaps have you come on the trip, perhaps have Mel Gibson.

• 1:37:05Speaker 02

  Cat Stevens, it's a funny kind of thing, but he's a guy who was born in the Greek church and is now a Muslim. And Zoran and Brad Lander and try to give the idea and Marjorie Taylor Greene. The point is, we have to expose what's going on.

• 1:37:22Tucker Carlson?

  I want to go to that dinner.

• 1:37:23Speaker 02

  All right. Not just a dinner, you've got to come visit with my friends in Janine, okay? And in Bethlehem. And then you're going to go tell the world what's going on there. Because you're all much better communicators than I am. And the world really has. Aren't we horrified by the idea? Aren't you, as a media person horrified? Why can't reporters go into Gaza? Why can't? And reporters are not allowed in large portions of the West Bank now. They call them military zones. What kind of press freedom is that? And what are they trying to hide? So the only way that's going to break that is by enough of us saying, enough influencers going over there and saying, I want to see what's going on. And then report back.

• 1:38:06Speaker 02

  And I thank you for giving me at least this little opportunity. I hope it moves things in the right direction.

• 1:38:13Tucker Carlson?

  Thank you.

• 1:38:14Speaker 02

  All right, thank you.

• 1:38:15Tucker Carlson?

  Very much.

• 1:38:16Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:38:17Tucker Carlson?

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