Anniversary of Apollo 11

That’s one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind. Neil Armstrong spoke these words after placing his foot down onto lunar soil, and throughout the course of the Apollo program eleven other astronauts also walked on the Moon. In this show, Neil Armstrong, Buzz Aldrin, and many others share their memories of Apollo, and say what they think should be NASA’s next step in space. NOTE: All-Access subscribers can listen to this entire episode commercial-free here: https://www.startalkradio.net/all-access/anniversary-apollo-11/?_sf_s=anniversary+of+apollo+11

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Speaker 00

  Our universe is filled with secrets and mysteries, leaving us with many questions to be answered. Now, more than ever, we find ourselves searching for those answers as the very fabric of space, science, and society are converging. Here, for the first time, these worlds collide. As we give you the knowledge that breaks the barrier between what is science and what is merely pop culture, this, this, this is StarTalk.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  Now, here's your hosts, astrophysicist Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson and comedian Lynn Koplitz. StarTalk.

• 0:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Welcome back to StarTalk. I am indeed your host, Neil deGrasse Tyson. Lynn Koplitz is out on the road doing her stand-up comedian thing, and I have a guest co-host today, a guest co-host brought to you from space. His name is Tom Kendricks. We'll get to him in just a moment, but he's a four-time shuttle astronaut. And today's, today we're celebrating the 40th, it's been 40 years since Neil Armstrong walked on the moon. He walked on the moon 40 years ago. How long is that to you, I wonder? And we all, those old enough, remember it, and those not old enough are told about it and might have other space memories.

• 1:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But I want to bring in right away, our, my co-host for today, Tom Kendricks. Tom, welcome to StarTalk.

• 1:37Speaker 03

  It's great to be here, Neil.

• 1:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And you've been in space four times.

• 1:40Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Don't you share that with somebody? That's, there's someone else who only went once because you, like, got it four times?

• 1:47Speaker 03

  Well, there's been people who've gone seven times.

• 1:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh.

• 1:50Speaker 03

  Maybe I should've gone.

• 1:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  (laughing). All in the shuttle era.

• 1:54Speaker 03

  That's correct.

• 1:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Shuttle era. And you're born in what state? Where are you from?

• 1:58Speaker 03

  Ohio.

• 1:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Every astronaut I ask where they're from, they seem to be like they're from Ohio.

• 2:02Speaker 03

  Well, Ohio's had more than its fair share of astronauts, I have to admit.

• 2:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Why? Some in the water supply?

• 2:07Speaker 03

  Well, we've been accused of that.

• 2:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Actually, I heard Colbert joke about this. He said, "Ohio has so many astronauts because they're trying to get away from Ohio."

• 2:18Speaker 03

  There may be some truth to that, but we did have good schools and good Midwestern work ethic.

• 2:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Uh huh, uh huh. Well, that's cool. Well, thanks for being with me today because what we're gonna do is, you know, we should do, we're at the top of the hour. Let's find out what our good old friend Bill Nye has to say about this 40th anniversary. Take it, Bill.

• 2:38Speaker 04

  Hey, hey, Bill Nye the Science Guy here. Forty years ago, humans walked on the moon, the Earth's moon, our moon. The moon landings were a result of the Cold War. It became a competition to see who could build the biggest number of history's deadliest rockets. Along with that was a push to gain the ultimate high ground. Space. The moon became the highest of the high. The United States mobilized a tremendous core of workers, built the big rockets and got it done. The Soviet Union went out of business about 20 years later. But despite the politics, it was the most exciting thing ever. For many days after the successful landing and return of the Apollo 11 crew, everyone on Earth shared that spirit of excitement. Forty years later, people everywhere continue to fly in space and explore our neighboring planets

• 3:23Speaker 04

  and distant stars. This is Bill Nye the Science Guy, hoping you'll think a bit about the most exciting thing ever: exploration and the joy of discovery.

• 3:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'm out of breath every time I hear the guy. Bill Nye, you gotta love him. So, Tom, my guest here, you're on StarTalk. By the way, if you have a question or a comment during the show, where we're celebrating the 40th anniversary of the Apollo landing, give us a call. 1-877-5-Star-TALK.

• 3:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You can even drop us an email, uh, log, uh, go onto our website, StarTalkRadio.net and check it out. So Tom, how old were you back when we landed on the moon?

• 3:58Speaker 03

  I was seventeen.

• 3:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Seventeen, and we're back in Ohio, I guess.

• 4:02Speaker 03

  Oh, a small town, watching the moon landing with a friend late at night.

• 4:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Did you know you were destined to go into space at that time?

• 4:08Speaker 03

  Oh, no, not at all. No one in my family had ever been to college and I didn't have my sights set that high and I tell people that they should aim high as a young person now.

• 4:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, you're, you're, well, you say aim high because I happen to know that you end up going to the Air Force and what's their motto?

• 4:22Speaker 03

  A motto.

• 4:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so a little bit of marketing for the Air Force here.

• 4:26Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 4:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, so you went to high school in Ohio and then, uh, college, where'd you go to college?

• 4:30Speaker 03

  I ended up going to the Air Force Academy.

• 4:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Air Force Academy.

• 4:32Speaker 03

  Out in Colorado Springs.

• 4:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Colorado Springs. I get them all confused. What's in Annapolis?

• 4:36Speaker 03

  That's the Naval Academy and West Point here in New York is the Army's.

• 4:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's the Army. And then the Marines go where?

• 4:41Speaker 03

  They're part of the Navy. They might not want to always acknowledge that, but they're part of the Navy.

• 4:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, if you talk to Marines, you would never know that they were part of the Navy.

• 4:49Speaker 03

  They're a very proud Corps.

• 4:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so that, that, you know, when I was, uh, when I was, what, in nineteen sixty-nine, I was nine years old and I was in Virginia with my best friend, who coincidentally, Tom, is visiting New York today and I said, "You gotta come by the studio," just so that I could share this special moment with the listeners. So I want to introduce to the world Philip Branford, my friend since fourth grade. Phil, welcome to StarTalk.

• 5:18Speaker 05

  Neil, it's great to be here. It's always an honor. It's really, I enjoy seeing you again.

• 5:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, well, thanks. And you were with me, we were together visiting your relatives, who were kinda crazy relatives, I have to say, down in Virginia. It was something in the water supply or something. I don't know what it was.

• 5:34Speaker 05

  It was out in the country.

• 5:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And all I remember is seeing Neil Armstrong take his first steps on a small fuzzy TV in Virginia. And do I, did I remember that correctly?

• 5:43Speaker 05

  Well, I think your memory's a little selective. As I remember, we were on our way back to New York that day, back home, and we were late trying to get to a bus, but you insisted upon jumping out of the car and running in to see the TV to watch the moon landing. And I was not quite that interested, but I regret it now because it was a historic day.

• 6:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So you didn't know at the time that someone walking on the moon would be an historic thing? What, what's wrong with you?

• 6:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Maybe I was already in space myself. But I have to tell the listeners that this guy Philip Branford was the first one. Not only did I share that moon landing moment with him, however disinterested he was, he was the first to lend me a pair of binoculars, me being a city kid, and I never looked up before. With those binoculars, I looked up, saw the moon, and it became a world to me, not just some orb sitting up there in space. I've been hooked ever since. Those years between age nine and 11. Sorry, I was 11 years old in 1969, and those years were formative of my life, and you were a fundamental part of that. I want to thank you for coming by StarTalk. I'm glad I was there. I'm glad I'm here today. Thanks. So even if, yeah, even if space meant nothing to you, your influence made it make everything to me. That's all that matters.

• 6:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right. Thanks for visiting StarTalk, Phil. Thanks. Yeah, so Tom, we were together this Monday, January 20th, in Washington DC. We went separately, of course, but you just happened to be there, and I was there, at the NASA's 40th anniversary celebration of the moon landing in the Air and Space Museum.

• 7:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was great. Great to see you there.

• 7:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And I had to work for my food, though.

• 7:15Speaker 03

  You did a great job, though, as the emcee.

• 7:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I had to be emcee of the evening, bringing like speakers in and out, while you just got to hang out and drink and eat.

• 7:23Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 7:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So what I did was I brought my favorite microphone, which is my roving microphone, where if I get somebody like next to me, I can get a good interview with them. And I just, I want to share with the listeners all these interviews, very quick. I just asked them simple questions, what I just asked you. How old were you? What were you thinking? What's the most memorable part? And where do you think NASA's going to go in the future? So you can hang out the whole hour and listen to what these are?

• 7:46Speaker 03

  I'm curious. I want to hear them.

• 7:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You want to hear what they are. All right, let's go to our first interview. I'm there in Washington DC, Monday night, July 20th, and there are all these people who are like icons of the Apollo era and beyond. Let's check out our first interview with Walter Cunningham, lunar module pilot for Apollo 7 mission.

• 8:04Speaker 06

  I flew the first test flight of the Apollo spacecraft. It was called Apollo 7.

• 8:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's after they scrapped 1 through 6?

• 8:13Speaker 06

  No, they didn't scrap 1 through 6. The fourth mission, because Gus Grissom had enough drag with NASA headquarters, was called Apollo One. And the first three were unmanned tests. Apollo Four, Apollo Four was Apollo One. And then after the fire, well, we were on the backup crew. So I was, I backed up Roger Chaffee on Apollo One. I worked on the fire investigation board for a couple of weeks, and then they told us we inherited the first mission. That left time, they flew two more unmanned missions, and then we flew the first engineering test flight.

• 8:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, three questions, you ready? How old were you 40 years ago today?

• 8:55Speaker 06

  Let's see, 40 years ago today, I had just turned 37.

• 9:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And what's your most indelible memory of the entire Apollo era? Be it your mission or any other?

• 9:08Speaker 06

  Of the entire, well, it's the landing on the moon.

• 9:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Apollo 11.

• 9:12Speaker 06

  Apollo 11, 500 years from now, that's the only thing they're gonna remember the 20th century for.

• 9:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Last question. Where should NASA go in the future?

• 9:20Speaker 06

  Well, there's only one objective in my mind, and that's Mars.

• 9:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Mars with people.

• 9:26Speaker 06

  Mars with people. As, I mean, we need to continue to have unmanned exploration as well. When I say Mars, it could be Fobos, it could be something like that. But I'm one of those that thinks that landing on the moon, or a program to go back to the moon, is what I call Mars Lite. It's a place to get bogged down, to have all kinds of problems, and spend a lot of money, stuck on the moon, and having to resell some program to get to Mars.

• 9:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Tom, you know, did you know Walter Cunningham?

• 9:54Speaker 03

  I have met him several times.

• 9:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, did he, was he significant in your life, or he just one of the other characters from the Apollo era?

• 10:00Speaker 03

  He was just one of those heroes from the Apollo era, to me.

• 10:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, I mean, the Apollo era is full of them. I mean, they're, and I don't think enough people know their stories, in spite of the movies, and I think there's still a lot of storytelling to go on.

• 10:14Speaker 03

  I agree. Just about every one of them's had a book out, and they're great, great novels.

• 10:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Now, while down there, by the way, you're listening to StarTalk Radio. I'm your host, Neil deGrasse Tyson, with my guest host this week, because Lynn Koplicks is out in the field doing her stand-up comedy, comedy that she does. She's also an actress, by the way, and stars in Z-Rock, the independent film channel show, it airs Sunday night. But I've got with me Tom Kenricks, who's a four-time shuttle astronaut, happens to be a New York City resident today, and was kind enough to... Agree to be co-host with me. And so, so, Tom, my next interview down there in Washington DC was the one and the only, who am I talking about?

• 10:55Speaker 03

  Neil Armstrong. The other Neil.

• 10:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The other Neil. Let's check him out. Neil Armstrong, go. Neil Armstrong, Commander of Apollo 11. How old were you 40 years ago today?

• 11:06Speaker 07

  Uh, I was 38.93.

• 11:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Excellent. I love it. And of the entire Apollo era, what's your most indelible memory? And it could be your own walk, but if not, I'm just curious.

• 11:21Speaker 07

  Most indelible memory was approaching the moon and flying through the moon's shadow so that the moon was eclipsing the sun and we could see the corona all around the moon. It was not circular, it was elliptical, which was a big surprise. I didn't understand that. And then we could see the moon, the dark side of the moon, of course, illuminated by earth light. And we could see the craters and the valleys and the plains in a blue, gray, three-dimensional view that was spectacular.

• 11:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Texture. The image had.

• 11:56Speaker 07

  And remarkable, but imperceptible to a camera, but the human eye was wonderful.

• 12:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And the last question, what do you think NASA should do next?

• 12:08Speaker 07

  Uh, I'm supporter of the NASA plan. And, uh, I'm...

• 12:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Just needs more money, I suppose, but the ideas are there.

• 12:16Speaker 07

  Yeah, I think the approach they're on is a good one. I...

• 12:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I like that. It's a very, that's a very pilot, the approach.

• 12:26Speaker 07

  They're a little below glideslope, but they're gonna get there.

• 12:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Neil Armstrong, down in Washington DC, just a few days ago. So, Tom, is he one of your heroes? Gotta be, Neil Armstrong.

• 12:40Speaker 03

  Oh, yes. And of course, he's another Ohio astronaut.

• 12:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So he's an Ohio astronaut. He flew, plus he was a pilot.

• 12:47Speaker 03

  Test pilot.

• 12:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You were a test pilot, too. Is that right? For the Air Force?

• 12:50Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 12:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So you're just kindred spirits from way back.

• 12:53Speaker 03

  Well, I like to think so.

• 12:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You know, there's that Kennedy speech where he said, "We will go to the moon and we'll do the other thing." I never really knew what he meant when he said, "We'll do the other thing." Do you talk about that in the astronaut corps when you were there?

• 13:06Speaker 03

  Uh, we have, of course. It's a mixed corps now.

• 13:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, what does he mean, "Do the other thing"? I don't know what that even means.

• 13:12Speaker 03

  Well, it depends on which side of this story we're on here.

• 13:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh.

• 13:16Speaker 03

  We did have mixed crews. We had, uh, you know, men and women on the space shuttle, but...

• 13:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, that's what the other... No. You think that's what he actually meant, "Do the other thing"? Uh, you know, also, the first words that Neil Armstrong spoke, "Man..." Do you think that there might have been alternative scripts that could have been used? Do you guys talk about that?

• 13:35Speaker 03

  Uh, no, but the one thing I learned...

• 13:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because had I landed on the moon?

• 13:39Speaker 03

  What you just said.

• 13:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  "Yee-haw!" No, I would have been less literal. I don't know. I would have been more emotional about it, so...

• 13:45Speaker 03

  Well, he had prepared that statement.

• 13:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Uh-huh.

• 13:49Speaker 03

  A small step for man.

• 13:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Do you know...

• 13:51Speaker 03

  Before he got on the...

• 13:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And who selected that above what might be another statement, for example?

• 13:55Speaker 03

  Well, apparently, it was he, Buzz, Mike Collins, and the...

• 13:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The three astronauts of Apollo 11.

• 14:00Speaker 03

  They decided what to say and didn't have to ask permission. They kept that to themselves.

• 14:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I didn't know that. So, basically, it was a tanned him out to a secret to everybody else until it actually happened.

• 14:12Speaker 03

  Right.

• 14:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Very cool. You know who else was down there in Washington? Uh, by the way, you're listening to StarTalk, StarTalk Radio. You can track us on the web and StarTalkRadio.net. And if you have a question about the Apollo landing, or the missions that followed, or of our four-time shuttle astronaut, Tom Kenricks, uh, give us a call at 1-877-5-Star-Talk. Down there in Washington for the 40th Anniversary Gala at the Air and Space Museum, I bumped into not only Neil Armstrong and other astronauts, but also June Lookart. Do you remember June Lookart?

• 14:44Speaker 03

  I do. Lassie.

• 14:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes.

• 14:47Speaker 03

  And Lost in Space.

• 14:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, she's the mom. She's Timmy's mom on Lassie. And she was also the mom... She made a good mom in 1960's, uh, TV shows. She was the mom on Lost in Space. And I said, "I got an interview. She's there. How about I let that one go? Let's see what she had to say." So, June Lookart, uh, how old were you 40 years ago today? I know it sounds impudent, but we have to put it in context.

• 15:10Speaker 08

  I have absolutely no facility at math.

• 15:16Speaker 08

  Well, I'm eighty-four now.

• 15:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Whoa, okay.

• 15:19Speaker 08

  So you subtract.

• 15:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So you're forty-four.

• 15:21Speaker 08

  Forty-four.

• 15:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so forty-four, when Neil Armstrong landed on the moon, of the whole Apollo era, what was the most indelible memory you had from that whole era?

• 15:31Speaker 08

  Oh, attending, oh, from that era, forty years ago?

• 15:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, while we were on the moon.

• 15:36Speaker 08

  Seeing the landing, which of course was, you know, one foot on the, it was very touching and I was so moved by it to think that I had been able to share it, to share it with the world. It was quite an astonishing experience.

• 15:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So if you were forty-four at the moon landing, that means you were around at a time when no one ever thought that was possible. That in fact, they just declared that it was just impossible and then you see it happen. And did that change your outlook on life and on, what did it do inside of you?

• 16:16Speaker 08

  Well, at that point, I was already in Lost in Space and had been for several years.

• 16:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Not Lost in Space, you were in Lost in Space. Just to clarify.

• 16:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You were in Lost in Space, not Lost in Space. Yes, go on.

• 16:30Speaker 08

  That is correct. And, but I've always been interested in aviation. So when space travel came along, it just absolutely fit into my general philosophy. There was really, I was in awe that we accomplished it, but not too surprised because I always thought it would happen.

• 16:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Do you have any specific dreams for NASA going forward?

• 16:52Speaker 08

  Oh, yes, I think it's very important that we go back to the moon and then go to Mars. And that young people are educated to know of this possibility and of the importance to them of this, to realize this great goal.

• 17:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  June Lockhart from Lost in Space, eighty-four years old and going strong. She looked good, too, I have to say.

• 17:14Speaker 03

  I had to have my picture taken with her.

• 17:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You saw her, too, yeah.

• 17:17Speaker 03

  She still looked like that mom from Lost in Space.

• 17:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, I felt very, you know, maternal. I felt like I was a kid around her. It was great. Now, she was in Lost in Space. You, as a shuttle astronaut, did you ever feel like you might get lost in space?

• 17:30Speaker 03

  We actually did get lost in space on my second mission.

• 17:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What does that mean? Aren't we tracking you with ground-based antennas?

• 17:36Speaker 03

  Yes, but only when you're over the stations. And we had been in a point where our antennas had pointed the wrong direction, and we had no communication with the ground for over one orbit.

• 17:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So that's before, that would be an hour and a half?

• 17:50Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 17:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wow. So, so, why weren't the antennas pointed towards you?

• 17:55Speaker 03

  Well, it wasn't my fault. I was asleep for the time.

• 17:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wasn't my fault. Weren't you shuttle pilot commander? Wasn't my fault. So, so how did it happen?

• 18:05Speaker 03

  It was just a switch error.

• 18:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  A switch error?

• 18:07Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 18:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay. An I/O error, incompetent operator error.

• 18:10Speaker 03

  There you go.

• 18:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, the space program is not only about flyboys and actresses, of course, there's scientists who greatly benefited from this whole effort. And there's a colleague of mine who I adore. She's, she's, I call her, like, Madame Saturn. I think I'd say it to her face. She's one of the world's experts on planets, and Saturn in particular. She was there. Her name is Carolyn Porco. Let's see what she has to say. Slightly different perspective than what you might think. It was Carolyn Porco, a colleague of mine, and I call her Madame Saturn. Carolyn Porco, how old were you forty years ago today?

• 18:43Speaker 09

  Oh, my God. I was sixteen.

• 18:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Sixteen. And what's your most indelible memory from the entire Apollo era?

• 18:51Speaker 09

  The entire Apollo era?

• 18:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah.

• 18:53Speaker 09

  Uh, well, my most indelible memory is from forty years ago tonight, when my family, who used to dine in the dining room, pulled the dining room table from the dining room into the living room so that we could watch... The landing and Armstrong walking on the moon because we had one of those console immobile televisions, okay, long ago. And it was the first time I ever saw my father, who was an immigrant from southern Italy, literally had been a shepherd as he was growing up. It's the first time I ever saw him cry. In fact, I'm gonna cry now.

• 19:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'm touching, oh my gosh, oh my goodness, a hug, give me a hug, okay. Last, last question. What do you see should be the future priorities for NASA going forward?

• 19:39Speaker 09

  I think we need both human flight and robotic exploration. You can't have one without the other. You certainly can't have human flight without robotic because we need to study the places before we send humans there. And I think that sending humans provides technological challenges that we need to, to meet because of the advances that come along with meeting those challenges. And I also think that it's something that humans have done forever. We are wanderers, we are explorers, and it's gonna happen anyway, so, you know, whether we talk about it or not, it will happen. So, I wanna see a robust human flight program.

• 20:22Speaker 09

  I wanna see us do it in a measured fashion because I think this rush to go any one place and then say we got there, we tried that already, it didn't work for sustaining us. So I'd like to see a more measured approach. I like the idea of going to the moon, again, testing out our technologies that we will use to go beyond. So, I wanna see both. That's my message, we need both.

• 20:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Final, final question. How's Saturn doing? It's both, it's both of our favorite planets.

• 20:52Speaker 09

  Saturn is as magnificent and splendiferous as it ever was.

• 20:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Carolyn Porco.

• 20:59Speaker 09

  Neil deGrasse Tyson.

• 21:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's, that's one of my favorite people all, anywhere, Carolyn Porco. You're back on StarTalk Radio, I'm your host Neil deGrasse Tyson, and I have a guest host this, this week, Tom Hendricks, who's a four-time shuttle astronaut. We're here celebrating the 40th anniversary of Apollo, playing clips from the anniversary gala that took place July 20th at the Air and Space Museum, an event that which I was emcee for the formal part of the evening, but Tom Hendricks was also there. Tom, we have, we occasionally hear rumors that astronauts don't get along, is that really true, or, of course...

• 21:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We can't expect them all to be friends, but is the, what kind of tensions exist between and among astronauts within an era or between eras from Apollo to Shuttle and the like?

• 21:47Speaker 03

  Well, from my experience, it was the tension in space. You know each other very well. You've been training for a year and a half, but now you get into a close environment where no one's getting a good night's sleep. It's extremely stressful.

• 22:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So people start getting cranky.

• 22:02Speaker 03

  They started getting cranky and you see the raw nerves in that stressful environment. And I've actually had to referee in space.

• 22:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Ooh, that, that, that probably didn't make it onto the NASA TV channel.

• 22:14Speaker 03

  No.

• 22:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You stopping the fisticuffs? Also, what, another quick one here, what, uh, we hear about the, them recyc, recently there, there's a new recycling machine that get, that converts urine into drinking water. Did they have that machine back when you were in orbit?

• 22:30Speaker 03

  Uh, we didn't have that, thank you very much. We actually produced our drinking water through the fuel cells on the space shuttle. So we had fresh water.

• 22:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, the fuel cells are combining hydrogen and oxygen to make fuel.

• 22:41Speaker 03

  Electricity, right.

• 22:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  To make electricity and the byproduct, the exhaust of a fuel cell is just drinkable water.

• 22:46Speaker 03

  Right.

• 22:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so you, you're in the early days, uh, before you drank each other's urine is what you're saying?

• 22:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, if that's progress.

• 22:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's progress. So, we, we're back in, in, in Washington and the, everybody was there. Anybody who's anybody in the entire, entire space history was there.

• 23:05Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 23:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And I just felt fortunate that all these folks gave me two minutes of their time to tell me what they were thinking and where they were coming from. Uh, let's go next to the second guy to walk on the moon. You gotta know, you know him, you love him. He's got a name that showed up in a Disney movie. Uh, let's see what Buzz Aldrin has to say. Here with Buzz Aldrin. Uh, Buzz, uh, how old were you 40 years ago today?

• 23:26Speaker 10

  Thirty-nine and a half, exactly.

• 23:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What's your most indelible memory from the entire Apollo era?

• 23:33Speaker 10

  Well, what I'm trying to remember the most are two things sitting on the, on the launch pad, halfway up, not quite there, all by myself. The other two guys are getting put into, to the spacecraft. I'm the third guy that goes in the center.

• 23:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  As you're ascend, as you're ascending the Saturn V?

• 23:49Speaker 10

  Yeah, as we're going up. And I was all by myself with my little air conditioning unit, looking out there, seeing the sunrise, waves coming in, quiet, foam, I mean frost and everything coming off the side. So that was one. The other one is uh... So that was just a serene, personal, quiet moment. Yeah, exactly. All by myself, about to depart on the trip. Yeah. And, and the next one is the second or two arriving on the trip. Engine stop. Contact light. Contact light, engine stop. You know, we, we got there. And I'm trying to stress that that was really opening the door to every piece of exploration to, to ever follow

• 24:33Speaker 10

  that. And without, without having done that, you couldn't do the rest of it. I have to agree that the actual landing on the moon is, loses its meaning compared to walking.

• 24:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I know, yeah.

• 24:44Speaker 10

  But, but landing is, you're there, you're touched down. Yeah. So what? Then you gotta do something else. What do you see as the highest priority for NASA going forward? Uh, US global space leadership. By way of progressive change and enlightened cooperation. That's the answer. Progressive change is, uh, in parentheses, Obama, and enlightened cooperation is, uh, space station, China, and the moon. Buzz Aldrin, thanks for being on StarTalk.

• 25:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, so Tom, we're back on StarTalk. That was just an interview with Buzz Aldrin in Washington DC, where both Tom Hendricks and I were on July 20th. Uh, Tom, as you know, we both know that Buzz is, has a lot of energy for trying to think about NASA's next steps. He's got thoughts about architecture, reusable rockets, and you, forgive me for not saying earlier, you are president of Aviation Week and Aviation and Space Weekly. It's a very important magazine to the industry. Uh, so you see ideas come in and out and what the new thoughts are. So...

• 25:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  How do you, where do you think the architecture of space exploration should be right now?

• 25:53Speaker 03

  Well, there's a study out that's being conducted right now to determine what to recommend to President Obama for NASA's next steps. My personal agenda would be-

• 26:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's the Augustine Committee.

• 26:04Speaker 03

  The Augustine Commission, yeah, very good. But I think what we need to do is get the general public, and especially young people, excited about space again. Doesn't matter whether it's to Moon or Mars, we just gotta create that excitement again.

• 26:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I think that's an enlightened perspective, which doesn't then choose sides over what kind of hardware it is, because you need the landscape to make it happen. And space exploration is not just flyboys and scientists. There's a good friend of mine who's a space policy analyst, John Logsdon. We caught up with him in Washington, let's see what he has to say. John Logsdon, space policy analyst extraordinaire. John, how old were you 40 years ago today?

• 26:43Speaker 03

  Thirty-one.

• 26:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Thirty-one. What's your most indelible memory from the entire Apollo era?

• 26:48Speaker 03

  Well, I was at the launch, so nothing will beat seeing the three guys walk by me, coming out of the operations building early in the morning on their way to the Moon. That's like watching Columbus sail out of the harbor.

• 27:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And John, what would you make as the highest priority for NASA going forward?

• 27:08Speaker 03

  Going somewhere. You know, it's time to go explore.

• 27:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Pure and simple. There you go. You agree with that, I guess, John?

• 27:17Speaker 03

  I do, as long as it creates that excitement. We've gotta get the general public back involved, or NASA will be accused of being adrift again.

• 27:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But it sounds like you speaking as shuttle astronaut, pilot on two missions, commander on two other missions, that you're saying NASA needs something exciting, does that imply that the shuttle missions were not exciting? Because in my opinion, they kinda weren't compared with the Apollo era. It's kinda boldly going where hundreds have gone before.

• 27:42Speaker 03

  Well, and NASA kind of sold it as an operational vehicle. They tried to make it routine, space travel is not yet routine by any means, and-

• 27:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, there's an aspect of the routine, the routine nature of it mattered when it came time to repairing the Hubble telescope. Because the Hubble was designed to be repairable, thing you go up, fix it, come back. So I kinda like that aspect of it. In fact, we caught up with John Grunsfeld, who is one of the Shuttle, uh, mission specialists, who's been up every time we've had to tou- touch the Hubble telescope and service it. He's been there to do it. Let's see what he has to tell us. Great. Here with John Grunsfeld, one of the lead spacewalkers of the recent STS-125 mission to service the Hubble telescope. John Grunsfeld, that was like your fourth mission, wasn't it?

• 28:24Speaker 11

  It was my fifth mission, my third to Hubble.

• 28:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Awesome. Uh, John, how old were you 40 years ago today?

• 28:30Speaker 11

  10 years old.

• 28:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What is your most indelible memory from the entire Apollo era?

• 28:34Speaker 11

  I think it's watching John Young and Charlie Duke drive around on the surface of the moon in the rover, getting airborne, uh, and kicking up dust.

• 28:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And what do you see as the single highest priority that NASA should have going forward?

• 28:48Speaker 11

  Getting people off Planet Earth for good.

• 28:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Col- space colonization?

• 28:51Speaker 11

  Uh, I think it's more survival of the planet and finding another good place to live.

• 28:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  After we trash this one?

• 28:58Speaker 11

  We're doing that now.

• 28:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's just what it is, you know? Now, of course, Shuttle initially was just getting it to work, and then we decided to build the space station using the Shuttle with components brought up in the bay. Were you a pre-Shuttle, pre-space station era, is that right? Your, your four missions?

• 29:15Speaker 03

  Yes, uh, the Mir space station up there, the Russian station.

• 29:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The Mir, Mir means freedom, I think, right? In Russian, what is Mir?

• 29:21Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 29:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, freedom.

• 29:23Speaker 03

  Peace, peace, yeah. I was there when we were designing the space station, and, uh, I think that the station was justified in part to keep the space shuttle flying. Recall that after the Challenger accident, the payloads were taken off if they were just satellites to orbit.

• 29:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Aight.

• 29:40Speaker 03

  Because we decided that wasn't worth risking human life for.

• 29:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So it was an after-the-fact kinda justification, rather than something born of a true and pure mission?

• 29:47Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 29:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So you're critical of the space station, then?

• 29:49Speaker 03

  I am. I think that investment could have been better used.

• 29:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Not everybody is. As you know, John Glenn is a big supporter of the space station, and I caught up with him down in Washington. Let's see what John Glenn has to say on StarTalk Radio. Um, here with Senator John Glenn, America's first astronaut. Uh, John Glenn, how old were you 40 years ago today?

• 30:06Speaker 12

  Well, let's see, 40 years ago today, I'd be, uh, 44.

• 30:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  44. What's your most indelible memory from that entire sort of Apollo, uh, era?

• 30:15Speaker 12

  I was in the observation area in the control center down there, so I remember very vividly the, the landing and, uh, the fact that they were down almost out of fuel when they finally set down. It was getting very, very tight, and we didn't know whether they were... Really gonna be able to land or whether they're gonna have to abort out of there.

• 30:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So the anxiety of that moment.

• 30:32Speaker 12

  Yeah, that was a very impressive.

• 30:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Last question, what do you think should be NASA's greatest priority going forward?

• 30:40Speaker 12

  Well, I'd like to see us fulfill our commitments on things we've already committed to and have not fulfilled before we do a lot of other things. Uh, I, I, we've, we built the International Space Station. We, uh, have spent just around a hundred billion dollars on that station. It just now is able to have a full crew onboard, and yet they cut the research money out of it. And I think that is the, uh, one of the craziest things I've seen in all the time I was in government is to build a, and make a hundred billion dollar investment and then not even try to get the research return on it.

• 31:16Speaker 12

  So I'd like to see that done, and, uh, if we want to go to the moon and Mars, that's fine, I think that's great, but let's pay for it and let's not take the money out of the research that was supposed to be done on the station.

• 31:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Perfect answer.

• 31:26Speaker 12

  Yeah.

• 31:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Senator John Glenn, thank you. Uh, so, uh, Tom Hendricks, that was, that was Senator John Glenn, and we know his political record and his sort of cultural record is one in support of support of the space station. So you're at odds with that, but it's kind of too late now that it's built, it's there. What do you do next now that it's there?

• 31:44Speaker 03

  Well, Senator Glenn identified it, is there's no funding now to do the research that we sent the space station to do, it's gonna be abandoned.

• 31:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So it's a vessel of no use at this point?

• 31:54Speaker 03

  Correct. Someone called it a white elephant, so it's, it's up there, but no use.

• 31:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And it's way bigger than an elephant.

• 31:59Speaker 03

  Right.

• 32:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You know, I'm curious, this, uh, you came, you have military background. How many of these space missions are military now within the shuttle era?

• 32:09Speaker 03

  Uh, we had about a half.

• 32:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Military and therefore secret.

• 32:12Speaker 03

  Well, we stopped.

• 32:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And tell us, tell us all the secrets.

• 32:15Speaker 03

  I was on the last, uh, military mission, we deployed a defense support program satellite, it's still up there, infrared telescope. But it was actually declassified right before we launched it, so there are no longer any secret missions on the shuttle.

• 32:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so now the shuttle's just completely open to all in this.

• 32:33Speaker 03

  Correct. NASA doesn't have any secure facility for launching or training.

• 32:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So you're listening to StarTalk Radio. I'm your host, Neil deGrasse Tyson, with my special guest co-host. We've got Tom Hendricks here, who is president of an industry magazine called Aviation and Space Weekly, and he's kind enough to join me as co-host for today, celebrating the 40th anniversary of the Apollo landing. He's a four-time shuttle astronaut, twice as pilot and twice as mission commander. And we were both in Washington on the anniversary back on July 20th in a beautiful gala that NASA hosted at the Air and Space Museum. And I also happened to emcee that. That was one of my toughest gigs I ever did.

• 33:16Speaker 03

  Oh, you did a great job.

• 33:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, thank you, but it was juggling so many different factors and forces, and it was just, it was just hard. I'm just, it was hard. And I'm curious, it's not often we get to hang out with an astronaut. You're there in the space shuttle, in the launch pad, the next living human being outside of your, you and your co-pilots and mission specialists are three miles away. They're three miles away because it's dangerous.

• 33:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Do you feel that danger? Do you know you're sitting on top of a controlled bomb?

• 33:48Speaker 03

  We know that, but the apprehension about the launch, I think, is greatest about two nights before liftoff. That's when I personally had the nightmares. When I got out to the launch pad, I was focused because I controlled part of what our future would be, and I did not want to make a mistake. So I focused on what I could control, not what other folks had done up to that point.

• 34:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So you went back into test pilot, Air Force mode, where you're all business at that point?

• 34:16Speaker 03

  Talk about getting your game face on. That's the biggest game I ever had.

• 34:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All the way. Well, before we started our show, you were telling me about a moment where, as you launched up and you looked up into the sky, you saw the constellation Orion in front of you, and it just stayed there. And you knew the constellation is up in the sky, but you're supposed to be going into orbit around the Earth.

• 34:33Speaker 03

  Right. I thought we were leaving the solar system. I was having a Star Trek moment.

• 34:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That must be a fun feeling. And then at some point, you have to tip off your trajectory tips enough to know that you're actually stuck to Earth.

• 34:47Speaker 03

  Yes, when the engine shut off, we're just falling around the Earth. That's what zero gravity or microgravity is like.

• 34:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So was that a letdown when you realized you're still on Earth?

• 34:54Speaker 03

  It really wasn't.

• 34:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  In orbit, but on Earth, yeah?

• 34:57Speaker 03

  I had another Star Trek experience. When the engine shut off, I looked out and saw the Earth's atmosphere being illuminated by the full moon. And I'd never seen a planet look like that. I thought we had orbited another planet.

• 35:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So first, you think you're going into space. Now you think you're orbiting another planet. What did you eat for dinner the night before?

• 35:14Speaker 03

  I didn't share that with the doc.

• 35:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You're listening to StarTalk, StarTalk Radio. I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson, astrophysicist, with a special guest co-host, Tom Hendricks. So, next, you know what I liked about this is there were scientists celebrating this as well as flyboys and astronauts and administrators. And there's another friend of mine who's a big space nut and who's powerful in NASA community, but has no memory of Apollo. Because so often, we speak of people influenced by Apollo. Let's see what a good friend and colleague of mine, Lori Leschen, has to say. So you're head of science at Goddard?

• 35:50Speaker 13

  Pretty much.

• 35:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay. Lori, how old were you 40 years ago today?

• 35:56Speaker 13

  I was three.

• 35:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So what is your most indelible memory of the Apollo era?

• 36:02Speaker 13

  I don't have one.

• 36:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So of what you've read and heard and the stories you've told, what sits with you the most?

• 36:08Speaker 13

  Well, obviously, it was an incredible moment for the history of humanity. I mean, it was a moment that we were all riveted because we made something impossible possible.

• 36:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So if the Apollo era had no influence on you, what did?

• 36:20Speaker 13

  Viking images from the surface of Mars. When I was 10 years old, I wanted to touch those rocks.

• 36:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So you came of age in a robotic era of NASA?

• 36:29Speaker 13

  I did. And Space Shuttle Sally Ride as well was a huge influence on me.

• 36:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Where do you think NASA should go in the future? What's your highest priority for NASA going forward?

• 36:37Speaker 13

  Again, I think that the thing that makes us great as a nation is when we try to do impossible things. So reaching beyond what we can do now, and whether that's moon, Mars, and beyond, that's where we should go.

• 36:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What's the next impossible thing?

• 36:48Speaker 13

  Well...

• 36:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Men on Mars? It's not men on the moon.

• 36:53Speaker 13

  I'd say women on Mars sounds pretty good to me.

• 36:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There you go. Need some more women in there. Get this man talk out of there. "Men walk on moon" was the New York Times headline on July 21st. So, what I'm intrigued about is when we started the shuttle era flights. The first commander was, or pilot was Bob Crippen.

• 37:16Speaker 03

  Right.

• 37:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But he didn't go alone. There were two. Who was the other?

• 37:19Speaker 03

  John Young. And John had walked on the moon.

• 37:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, do you think that was on purpose? That they, NASA would put a moon person in with the shuttle era just to transition like a task, a passing of the torch?

• 37:30Speaker 03

  Definitely. John Young had been there in the Gemini program as well. So, he was transferring all that knowledge that he had gained developing those vehicles and transferred it to the crews who would fly the space shuttle.

• 37:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Let's see what Bob Crippen has to say. I'm here with Bob Crippen, who is, you were pilot or commander of the STS-1?

• 37:50Speaker 14

  Pilot. Which means I was the co-pilot.

• 37:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so let me introduce that again. Here with Bob Crippen, pilot of STS-1, the first space shuttle launch. Let me ask you, first of all, how old were you 40 years ago today?

• 38:05Speaker 14

  Forty years ago today, I was 31 years old and I was interviewing for a job in the astronaut office with Deke Slaton.

• 38:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Excellent. And what is your most indelible memory of the Apollo era?

• 38:16Speaker 14

  The whole thing. The fact that we actually did it and did it in the timeframe that we did. Just disappointed we aren't doing it fast enough again.

• 38:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And what do you, what did you see as the highest priority for NASA going forward?

• 38:29Speaker 14

  To get a good budget where they can go forward.

• 38:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Will you have some sadness about the retirement of the shuttle since you, you're the first man up?

• 38:39Speaker 14

  Obviously. I mean, the shuttle's been a great program and, but you know, all good things must go. The real thing that I regret is if we retired before we have the capability to put people in space ourselves again. I find that almost criminal in my mind.

• 38:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's that, we got, gotcha. Thank, thank you Bob Crippen.

• 39:00Speaker 14

  You're welcome.

• 39:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  How, how, how brave was Bob Crippen and John Young to sit on top of the space shuttle? This whole completely new design for getting into space?

• 39:09Speaker 03

  They were putting their trust in a lot of engineers and researchers that had put many years into developing that.

• 39:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, you do that, you did that as test pilot. So, isn't that, is that a culture of test pilots? You just get, get in there and, and, and pull the throttle? I mean, that's what you guys do.

• 39:23Speaker 03

  We all love to do that. Everyone wants to be the first to fly a first vehicle.

• 39:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So you like putting your life at risk? I'm glad you all are among us because the whole, the rest of us are not doing it.

• 39:33Speaker 03

  Well, we feel it's controlled risk. It's not a necessary risk.

• 39:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay. Well, that's, that's an intelligent way to think about the problem. But the risk is still there. But you're, it's a calculated risk that you're accepting.

• 39:43Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 39:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Given the reward that could come on the other side.

• 39:46Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 39:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So what's your general opinion of the space shuttle as a space vehicle?

• 39:51Speaker 03

  Well, it was designed to be reusable and low cost to take us into space, to be that.

• 39:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Low, low cost.

• 39:58Speaker 03

  And it didn't turn out to be low cost.

• 40:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Plus, we lost two of them.

• 40:02Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 40:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I mean, two disasters. These are bad.

• 40:04Speaker 03

  Absolutely. We lost Challenger in Columbia and it proved the engineers to be right in their odds that we would lose one in 75.

• 40:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So you already kind of knew those were the odds going up?

• 40:13Speaker 03

  Right.

• 40:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Based on what the engineers told you? And when did you enter the astronaut corps?

• 40:18Speaker 03

  I joined in 85, six months before the Challenger accident.

• 40:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Six months before Challenger. So after Challenger, did you have more resolve to stick with it? What, what was, what, what was NASA? How, how did that work?

• 40:27Speaker 03

  It was interesting. Nobody left. No astronauts left because of the Challenger accident. That's our profession. We knew that those astronauts that were lost would want us to continue the program. We did.

• 40:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So it's a matter of maintaining the mission of, and the purpose?

• 40:41Speaker 03

  Right. That, we felt we were serving our country and, and we were going to stick with it.

• 40:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And would you say the same sentiment prevailed after Columbia burned up coming back from orbit?

• 40:51Speaker 03

  Uh, yes. The astronauts, same thing. They, they said, this is our job. This is our profession. We're going to keep doing it. But the administration decided to shut down the space shuttle program as soon as the space station is complete and that'll be next year.

• 41:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And bring on some other architecture for it.

• 41:06Speaker 03

  Right.

• 41:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So I'm impressed that even when they interviewed the families of the dead astronauts, the fam, none of the families, families didn't say, "Stop the carnage." They said, "This quest must continue because it's what got humans out of the cave in the first place."

• 41:17Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 41:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So somebody's got to do it and we're fortunate to even be married to those who did. Even in death.

• 41:24Speaker 03

  The analogy was made, you know, the safest place for a ship is in the harbor, but that's not why you build a ship.

• 41:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's not what ships are for. Uh, we've got it, uh, I got a couple of minutes with, uh, Gene Krantz. Gene Krantz, you might remember from the movie Apollo 13, his character and the real person himself is the one famous for saying, "Failure is not an option." Let's see what Ja- Gene Krantz had to say on July 20th, uh, down in Washington.

• 41:47Speaker 15

  Here with Gene Krantz? Failure is not an option, Gene Krantz. That's your middle name now? That's, uh, that's been a, uh, a good game plan for most of my life. I, uh, I really, uh, came into the failure is not an option. Well after I started, uh, the business of Stars and Stripes Forever. When I was, uh, going through, uh, flight training, I had a very bad night. Uh, my first night solo, I suffered almost disabling vertigo. And, uh, finally got back landed and the next evening you gotta go out and do it again. And there's a, uh, story about you gotta ride the horse that threw you. Well, I was fortunate that, uh, as I was sweating it out, chain smoking, lucky strikes, the flight line public address system came alive.

• 42:30Speaker 15

  Checking it out for the Saturday parade and they played the Stars and Stripes Forever. I picked up my parachute, aced that night flight. In fact, I aced the business. As a cadet graduated, went to fighter weapons school and from that day on, every day of my professional life, started with the Stars and Stripes Forever.

• 42:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Gene Krantz, you gotta love that guy.

• 42:52Speaker 03

  He's a great leader.

• 42:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  He sounds like he invented the mission control voice.

• 42:56Speaker 03

  He was and still is often considered the face of mission control. He is what every flight controller wants to grow up to be.

• 43:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So what is the, is the flight controller the guy who stands up and looks over all of the monitors that everybody's on in, in mission control?

• 43:09Speaker 03

  That's the flight director who is orchestrating.

• 43:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, and that's what, uh, Gene, you know, he wore the vest in the movie, the right stuff.

• 43:15Speaker 03

  And he is the flight director that manages and orchestrates all the other flight controllers.

• 43:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, okay. So do, uh, you, do you know Gene Krantz?

• 43:22Speaker 03

  I do.

• 43:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, yeah. I mean.

• 43:24Speaker 03

  Another Ohio guy.

• 43:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Uh, oh, there he goes again, this Ohio thing. And John Glenn is also from Ohio, as we all know. Uh, so that voice of his, uh, when I hear his voice, it transports me back in time, 40 years, like, you know, it's, it's the kind of voice, like, absent of emotion, all straight and it gets through the airwaves. And through the static and it's Gene Krantz and you feel like all is well because the man is in charge.

• 43:48Speaker 03

  And every flight director is trained to keep that tone on his team in some of the most stressful environments.

• 43:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's just, I'm just amazed by this. It's, and I'm also impressed, was there anyone talking about scrapping the space program after either Apollo one, where the three, we lost three astronauts in a fire, or Apollo 13 with that, the accident, or the two, the two space shuttle failures? Anyone within NASA saying, we gotta just give this up, it's too dangerous?

• 44:16Speaker 03

  Well, I think it's questioned every time something that tragic happens. And after the Apollo program was ended, you know, or when it was ended, we still had two or three other missions that could have gone. And decision was made at the highest levels in the government at the time to not risk three more crews on a trip to the moon.

• 44:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's above NASA at that level?

• 44:35Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 44:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, yeah. So NASA wasn't saying, give it up. It's politicians at that point.

• 44:39Speaker 03

  Right. Same thing with the space shuttle.

• 44:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, of course politicians birthed the space program themselves, right? So...

• 44:45Speaker 03

  You gotta give them credit there.

• 44:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  They giveth and taketh away.

• 44:47Speaker 03

  Right.

• 44:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I was down in Washington for the, for the gala. By the way, you were listening to StarTalk Radio and today's subject is the 40th anniversary of the landing of Apollo 11 and Neil Armstrong making his historic first steps. There's a good friend of mine who's a science writer, a space historian, Andrew Shaken. He's recently authored the book A Man on the Moon. Let's see what he has to say. He was also at this gala. And I asked him all the same questions we've been asking everybody else. Andrew Shaken, space author extraordinaire. Andy, how old were you 40 years ago today?

• 45:22Speaker 16

  I was 13. I was glued to the TV. I had told my parents I was not going to go to summer camp. I don't know whether they were planning to send me, but I was not going. And I was in the den with my Revell model kits that I had built, my maps of the moon, my copies of Time and Newsweek. I had my mission control in the den and I was all set.

• 45:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Nerd kid from the beginning.

• 45:45Speaker 16

  Space nerd kid. And I even got my dad to go out and fill up with golf so I could get the paper lunar module that they were giving away.

• 45:55Speaker 16

  What is your most indelible memory from the Apollo era? Oh my god, my most indelible memory, there are about 20, but just off the top of my head, getting to see the launch of Apollo 17 from the VAB, from right outside the VAB. That's the one at night, wasn't it? Yeah, that was the only night launch of the Saturn V, and it was like the sun coming up in the middle of the night. It was incredible. And knowing, the best part was knowing where those people were headed. What do you think should be NASA's highest priority in the future? Get back in the exploration game with humans as well as robots. We're already sort of doing that. You mean, you're not happy with low Earth orbit? Are you?

• 46:34Speaker 16

  I would like, I would like to go somewhere. I would like us to go somewhere. You don't want to just drive around the block for... Oh god, please. Before I'm too old to be aware of it. Andrew Shakin, thanks for that. Yeah. You've been on StarTalk.

• 46:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Andrew Shakin, he's, he's, he's a great guy. He's a, he's had access to all the Apollo era astronauts to write the material for his books. Probably more access than anyone else putting it together. So, history will, history will remember his efforts as sort of a fundamental documentarian, print documentarian of that entire era. Tom, I'm curious, are the, what human frailties would prevent NASA from selecting you as an astronaut? Is it vision, or is it, if you have indigestion? Give me a quick, a top three list of what, how you might want to be an astronaut, and they say, "Sorry, you know, go work in the back office."

• 47:26Speaker 03

  It's essentially the same as becoming an FAA pilot. They use the same criteria that the Federal Aviation Administration does for pilot selection. But, most people are either colorblind, or don't have the vision, the 2020 corrected vision. Those would be the primary ones.

• 47:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And then, basic health, obviously. I mean, you know, physical condition would be necessary.

• 47:45Speaker 03

  Right.

• 47:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Back in Washington, I also bumped into Roger Lanius, who's an historian for the Air and Space Museum. And he had for me, I think, the funniest memory of the Apollo landing. Let's check him out. Here with Roger Lanius of the National Air and Space Museum. And Roger, we characterize you as a historian?

• 48:04Speaker 17

  That's correct.

• 48:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Historian of space.

• 48:06Speaker 17

  Right.

• 48:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And so, three questions. How old were you 40 years ago today?

• 48:10Speaker 17

  I was 15 years old.

• 48:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And what's your most indelible memory from the entire Apollo era?

• 48:15Speaker 17

  Oh, there's no question. It's the moon landing.

• 48:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The first moon landing.

• 48:18Speaker 17

  The first moon landing, and obviously 40 years ago today. Actually, tonight.

• 48:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And just how you felt? Is that why?

• 48:26Speaker 17

  It was very exciting, but I gotta tell you, as Neil said, "Foot on the moon." I was sitting on the hood of a car, listening to the broadcast on the car radio. There was a girl beside me, and what was taking place on the moon was not my first priority.

• 48:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But you nonetheless influenced...

• 48:47Speaker 17

  Nonetheless, I was influenced by it, and I will say this: I remember very well what was taking place on the moon. I remember very little of what was taking place on the hood of the car.

• 48:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, last question. Where do you think NASA should be headed going forward? The high top priority of its mission?

• 49:04Speaker 17

  I want to explore the planets. No question about that.

• 49:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  With people? We're already there with robots.

• 49:08Speaker 17

  I'm happy to send robots. We need to send them as surrogates. They need to get more and more sophisticated and autonomous. I'd like to follow with people down the road, but that doesn't have to happen soon.

• 49:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, people to the planets eventually?

• 49:20Speaker 17

  Eventually.

• 49:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Back on StarTalk Radio, Neil deGrasse Tyson here as your host, and my guest co-host, swapped in for comedian actress Lynn Kopelitz. We have today Tom Hendricks, four-time shuttle astronaut. Tom, we were together there in Washington, and it was full of people who -- ex-astronauts who had military backgrounds, and, you know, folks with military backgrounds aren't... Always the most articulate. They're not always the most, I mean, they're, they've got a job to do. They gotta land the machine, they've gotta be emotion free when you need to be emotion free, but sometimes maybe you want emotion.

• 50:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because emotion is the source of some of the greatest creativity humans have ever expressed. So, do you regret that in that era, they perhaps maybe should have sent up an artist? Or, no, Alan Bean himself was an artist, right?

• 50:14Speaker 03

  He became an artist later.

• 50:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, Apollo 12, Alan Bean?

• 50:17Speaker 03

  Right.

• 50:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah.

• 50:18Speaker 03

  Right.

• 50:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  He became an artist later, but obviously he didn't start out as one for that. So...

• 50:22Speaker 03

  I think you got it right.

• 50:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Do you think we've lost an opportunity there?

• 50:24Speaker 03

  Um, we did during the Apollo program, I believe it would have been appropriate to send someone with that other perspective to the moon.

• 50:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  A writer, somebody who can come back and emote what happened, rather than just describe it.

• 50:36Speaker 03

  Well, in fact, NASA recognized it, and had a program that was going to select journalists and artists to go onboard the space shuttle, but that was canceled after the schoolteacher was lost on...

• 50:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  On Challenger. So, the schoolteacher was Chris McAuliffe.

• 50:50Speaker 03

  Chris McAuliffe, right.

• 50:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, they're worried that they, you know, it's okay, well, it's okay to kill a military pilot, but not a civilian schoolteacher, I guess, is the...

• 50:58Speaker 03

  Well, and people have to recall that more than half of the NASA astronauts are not military.

• 51:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Today?

• 51:03Speaker 03

  Or former military, e- even back then, since the shuttle program.

• 51:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Shuttle era, sure, okay. So, but the worry is that would be really bad PR if you start killing schoolteachers and poets and musicians.

• 51:15Speaker 03

  Or, is it worth risking your life for? And that would be the debate. Is it worth risking an artist's life for that perspective? Some could argue yes.

• 51:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, I think I would leave that decision up to the artists themselves. People risk their lives all the time to achieve some kind of goal. A poet who's looking for something to inspire, some kind of muse for their creativity, if they judge that there's a 25% chance they're not coming back, but if they do come back, they're gonna have an inspiration of their lifetime to compose poetry for the rest of their life, that's gotta be worth it.

• 51:48Speaker 03

  I agree with you.

• 51:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There's no worse of a risk than hikers who are trying to go up to the top of Mount Everest, and because there's a vista that they've never seen or experienced, so they can come back and get to talk about it.

• 51:58Speaker 03

  Right. It's either that or give access to everyone. You know, if we could all go to space, that would be ideal.

• 52:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That'd be really cool. I mean, that's what the space tourism thing is all about, right?

• 52:08Speaker 03

  A little high-priced right now.

• 52:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Uh, one of my dearest friends is a, is a, uh, four-star general in the Air Force, Lester Lyles. I've been on several committees and commissions with him in Washington. And, uh, we're gonna end on, uh, with a two-minute conversation I had with him reflecting on the Apollo era. Let's see what General Lester Lyles has to tell us. Okay, General Lester Lyles is a, a general in the, a retired general in US Air Force, and he's an space activist, I would say, because he's, uh, he's been on commissions and committees trying to get NASA back in line. So, Les, let me ask you, how old were you 40 years ago today?

• 52:47Speaker 18

  Forty years ago today? Oh, great. So you would have to add that. I was 23.

• 52:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Twenty, 23. And what is your most indelible memory of the Apollo era?

• 52:54Speaker 18

  Uh, my most indelible era, uh, memory is President Kennedy's speech.

• 52:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Which speech was that?

• 52:59Speaker 18

  The, the first one to Congress where he announced that we're gonna go send a man to the moon and bring him back.

• 53:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You felt it?

• 53:05Speaker 18

  I was, yes, I was about to enter high school here in Washington DC, uh, young, very, very interested in science and technology. And we, he said that it inspired me to get out of my neighborhood, which was a, a neighborhood that, uh, usually graduated basketball players and criminals.

• 53:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Where was that?

• 53:21Speaker 18

  Uh, in Washington DC and far northeast, and to go to, uh, academic-oriented high school here in the district. And it made a big difference. And then, when Apollo, um, went off, the Apollo program started, I was about in, uh, Howard University and just got to go to School of Engineering at Howard.

• 53:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So it completely-

• 53:39Speaker 18

  It inspired me to be an engineer.

• 53:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It completely shaped your life?

• 53:41Speaker 18

  It shaped everything about my life. Yes, it did.

• 53:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So you're giving back now as an advisor to-

• 53:45Speaker 18

  Trying to. And my first assignment in the Air Force was as a rocket scientist. So it's all serendipitous.

• 53:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So where do you want NASA to go in the future? If you, if you say, what should it do next?

• 53:54Speaker 18

  I just finished a study for the National Academy, uh, called, uh, Rationale and Goals for the United States Civil Space Program. Uh, the title of the report is America's Future in Space Aligning the Civil Space Program to National Needs. And what I want NASA to do is continue to do what they're doing, but also remember that all that great technology that led to going to the moon can also be utilized to solve some of the greatest challenges we have in our generation today.

• 54:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So that'll be a report that tries to make a real- Express the value of that investment in, in the quality of life on Earth.

• 54:26Speaker 18

  Exactly, and to inspire more than just us normal space geeks, more than those of us who drank the Kool-Aid, to inspire others to realize what great things have come out of NASA.

• 54:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Or drank the Tang.

• 54:35Speaker 18

  Or drank the Tang.

• 54:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'm sorry. Thank you, General Lyons. Tom Hendricks, we only have like a minute and a half left at most. Do you see space as a place for adventure or a place for discovery that could then apply back here to Earth? Give me your quick sense of going forward in space.

• 54:52Speaker 03

  We've got to get those young people excited. It is a place to explore, it is a place for discovery, and that's what has to become exciting to young people.

• 55:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And if it's not, there's no hope, is what you're saying?

• 55:03Speaker 03

  No.

• 55:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I have to agree. I mean, I don't want to agree, but I have to agree. I think that some things are worth doing, whether or not it gets everybody excited, but it's a tax-based source of money, and the public's got to get jazzed by it. And if they don't, I fear for its future.

• 55:20Speaker 03

  They pay the bills.

• 55:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Tom Hendricks, thanks for joining me on StarTalk. You've been listening to StarTalk Radio, a program funded by the National Science Foundation, and we've been talking about the 40th anniversary of the Apollo landing. Thanks for being with us. We'll see you in a week.