Tucker on the Propaganda Pawns, Bibi’s Threat to Trump, and the Great American Betrayal

No two countries have the same priorities. That’s why it should be illegal to yoke our military to a foreign power in war. Bret Weinstein on how it happened. Bret Weinstein, PhD, is an evolutionary biologist, author, and co-host of “The DarkHorse Podcast” with his wife, biologist Heather Heying. They are the co-authors of “A Hunter-Gatherer’s Guide to the 21st Century: Evolution and the Challenges of Modern Life.” Paid partnerships: Good Ranchers: Use code TUCKER to get an additional $25 off your first order at https://go.goodranchers.com/tucker Brooklyn Bedding: Get 30% off sitewide with promo code TUCKER at https://brooklynbedding.com Cowboy Colostrum: Get 25% off your entire order with code TUCKER at https://cowboycolostrum.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPact.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 0:29Tucker Carlson?

  In just a minute, we're going to play you an interview we just completed with our friend Bret Weinstein about the war in Iran, why it started, what it means, how it may end, and when. And we should say at the outset why we did this interview. Bret Weinstein is not an expert on military tactics or strategy. He's not a diplomat. He's not a Farsi speaker. He is instead a biologist. He's a close observer of living things and of the systems they occupy and create. But why speak to Bret Weinstein? Really, honestly, one reason, because he's honest. He's an honest man. He's a scientist, and the first requirement of science is, of course, honesty. Report what you know. But we know that he's honest because we've known him for almost 10 years now and watched

• 1:13Tucker Carlson?

  him evolve, in some ways, from a liberal college professor at Evergreen to a Trump voter and promoter during the last campaign of Donald Trump. And unlike a lot of people you see in the political sphere evolve, Bret Weinstein kept the rest of us surprised of his evolution as was in progress. He didn't pretend, "I've always thought this." He told us that he had changed his mind, and why? So, on the deepest level, he is an honest man, honest about the things he sees around him, what he thinks are behind those things, and honest, most important and most telling of all, about himself. So it's important to get an honest analysis of what's happening now, because the dishonesty is so overwhelming, it's hard to separate it from the true.

• 1:57Tucker Carlson?

  So if you're following this, attempting to follow it in this incredibly censored moment we're living in, online, you're seeing all kinds of things that seem true that aren't. You're seeing true things suppressed, the most basic things. How many people have been killed on all sides? How many have been injured? You keep reading that Israeli Cabinet Minister Ben Gavir died again and again. He's dead. Well, he was in Jerusalem a couple hours ago issuing decrees, so not dead. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Basic facts, like what's the physical damage to all of these countries sucked into this conflict, you can't find because that information has been censored by those countries, countries in which it took place, and by American social media companies.

• 2:41Tucker Carlson?

  So it's really hard to know what's true. Everybody involved in this conflict has a strong incentive to lie and to spin. But at some point, all of that lying becomes irrelevant. Rhetoric itself, propaganda itself, becomes irrelevant in the face of war because war changes physical things. Not just words and minds, but physical realities like borders and populations of countries and control over resources. Those decisions are settled by armed conflict a lot of the time. They certainly will be in the case of this war. And so in the end, it kind of doesn't matter what you say. Somebody's going to win and somebody's going to lose and the world's going to be very

• 3:26Tucker Carlson?

  different and the rest of us can assess those differences unencumbered or impeded by your lying, by your propaganda. And that may be why, actually, for a war, there's been relatively little propaganda around this. The current administration hasn't even really tried to explain why we're doing this. Not very hard, anyway. And in some ways, we should be grateful for that. It's a sign of respect not to lie to people too aggressively. The President of the United States today said on camera, "We're thinking about using nukes against Iran." He said, "We could eliminate Iran, make it uninhabitable forever in an hour. We have weapons that can do that." Well, those are nuclear weapons. The President of the United States is saying out loud, "If this gets more intense, we could nuke them."

• 4:09Tucker Carlson?

  Now, you can support that or disagree with that, however you feel about that. You know, it's not often that people are that blunt about what could happen. And again, there's been very little attempt to convince you that we did this in America's national interest. The Secretary of State just came out and said, "We did it because Israel forced our hand." So they've been pretty direct, actually, about what is going on here and what the stakes potentially are. President of the United States threatening nuclear weapons. Okay. Well, lots on the table.

• 4:41Tucker Carlson?

  The propagandists for the war, the people who really more than anyone else in this country pushed us to where we are now are weirdly, unaccountably even angrier than ever. You got what you wanted, but you're madder than ever. That's been true since the very first hours. The second, the first barrage was unleashed against Iran and then the counterattacks from Iran against the Gulf and American interest there. These people have been enraged. Very interesting. A licensed psychiatrist should study that someday. Why are they so mad since they got what they wanted? But the nature of their propaganda hasn't really changed. There's been no effort to convince you as an American citizen or a citizen of any country that it's good for you. Only that we must do this and if you're opposed to it anyway, you are a

• 5:25Tucker Carlson?

  bad person. Not incorrect, not wrong in your calculations, not dumb, but evil. And you kind of got to wonder what this is, other than an obvious attempt to divide American society into neocons and non-neocons. Why would you want to do that? Neocons are a tiny percentage of the American population, but clearly they're trying. But it's interesting to watch it. We haven't played a lot of this, don't plan to, but there's one clip from Ben Shapiro, recent clip, that kind of sums up the arguments in favor of this war. Here's Ben Shapiro.

• 5:59Speaker 02

  Sadly, younger Republicans have become similarly prone to conspiratorial thinking. According to Manhattan Institute, 54% of young Republicans, men under 50, believe the Holocaust didn't happen as historians describe. 53% of Republicans under 50 believe in 9/11 conspiracy theories. 51% believe the moon landing was faked. These people too have bought into a grievance-based distrust of the system. And it's showing in their embrace of psychotic figures and disconnected politics. America is a force for good in the world. Radical Islamists are evil. American allies who demonstrate strength are an asset for us. Terrorists are bad. Members of the grievance party are losing their mind over this and now they've been relegated to basically rooting for Iran to win. So, members of the grievance party, meaning Democrats and members

• 6:43Speaker 02

  of that horseshoe right, have decided that after paying lip service to the horrors of the mullahs, the true horror is American interventionism and destruction. America must be undermined.

• 6:51Tucker Carlson?

  So, if you have questions about this war, whether it's in your interest, your country's interests or not, and it's never a question that's occurred to Ben Shapiro, is this good for America? It's really not under consideration. But if it's under your consideration, if you've raised that question, you are tantamount to a Holocaust denier. You're insane. You're a crazy person. You probably think the moon landing was fake. And 9/11 was fake. By the way, there's a pretty easy way to settle any debate about 9/11, which is by declassifying the millions of pages of classified documents that might explain what 9/11 was. But that's never under consideration. We could end this debate right now. We won't, of course. But you're a bad person. And above all, you are a disloyal

• 7:32Tucker Carlson?

  person. Disloyal to the United States. You are, quote, "rooting for Iran to win." You're part of the grievance party. How dare you complain? How dare you have grievances? It's pretty weak, coming from a guy who literally knows nothing about the rest of the world at all. So, you know, you can get annoyed by it at some point, especially if Iran wins. People like that will double their calls to arrest anyone on the other side. They're already calling for it. These people should be investigated. Anyone who's against this should be investigated on a ferret charge. They should go to jail. Their ideological opponents should go to jail. Who's this totalitarian here? And you'll hear a

• 8:14Tucker Carlson?

  lot more of that. But you will not see people pay a ton of attention to yelping, childish yelping like that, totally uninformed screaming like that, ever again. Because, again, this conflict has entered what the military refers to euphemistically as the kinetic stage. People are actually firing munitions at each other. So it kinda doesn't matter what people on the sidelines say at this point. This is a hot war, and it will be decided by force. One of the reasons you don't want to get into a hot war. In other words, we've exited the part of the exchange where it's two guys in the parking lot, "What'd you say? I'll mess you up!" And we've gotten to the part where one guy just punches the other guy in the face and keeps going unless he's stopped. So that's exactly where we

• 8:58Tucker Carlson?

  are. It doesn't kind of matter what you said before the punching started. Not that Ben Shapiro has any experience of that, but... It's just true that once people start hurting each other, words matter less and the dominant party will emerge victorious. That's exactly where we are. So who is going to win this? And what does it mean to win? Well, the most obvious and often repeated observation about this conflict is totally true. Iran's threshold for victory is very low. It just needs to survive. The regime has to remain intact. Now, in order to change the regime, everyone pretty much agrees you would need ground forces, you'd need troops, boots on the ground, American boots on the ground, in order to do that. And there is zero appetite for that in this administration, much less in the country. Israel would like

• 9:43Tucker Carlson?

  us to commit ground troops, obviously, but it would take a lot to get us to do that. It would take some sort of terror attack in the United States, probably like 9/11, in order for us to do that. But that hasn't happened yet. We pray it never happens. So at this point, we're not going to commit ground troops, which does sort of put the whole exercise in perspective. If Iran's burgeoning nuclear program was really a threat to our core national security interests, then of course, we would commit ground troops because any threat to our core national security interests merits committing ground troops. But this one didn't. And the people who decided this were told, or believed somehow, that we could effect regime change from the air because Iran was in a pre-revolutionary

• 10:27Tucker Carlson?

  stage and all we needed to do was like topple the head figure, like dominoes cascading. That would set off a chain reaction that installed a pro-Western government in Tehran. That was the argument. These arguments always seem ludicrous. In retrospect, you always laugh at them. Really? Did you really think that? Well, apparently, we really did. But almost two weeks in, that has not happened. By the way, that would be a great outcome because it would end the war immediately. Instead, like a pro-American government in Tehran. Like, why is that so hard? Well, it is hard. And the US has never really been able to do it, despite trying a lot with these so-called regime change wars. So if we don't succeed in doing that, if in the end, the United States decides, well, we

• 11:10Tucker Carlson?

  can't do this, what happens then? That is the question. In other words, what does an Iranian victory look like? An Iranian victory does not look like... Iranian forces invading the Gulf and controlling Dubai or something, or setting up a new satellite capital in Jerusalem, that's not going to happen, probably, hope doesn't. What an Iranian victory looks like is really simple, it's control of the Straits of Hormuz. It's exactly what it looks like, which if you hadn't looked at a map recently, is only about 20 miles wide, and it's the choke point through which 20% of the world's energy flows, 20% of oil and liquefied natural gas, on which many countries, including American allies, are totally dependent.

• 11:54Tucker Carlson?

  Europe, South Korea, Japan, not to mention India and China, they need it, they need energy. As conservatives are often fond of pointing out, energy creates civilization, without it, things ground to a halt. That's just true, and renewables cannot take up the slack, sorry. So if that strait, that choke point, and again, if you haven't looked at it on a map, it's on the eastern end of the Persian Gulf, the Arabian Gulf, whatever you want to call it, that body of water through which energy flows by ship. Whoever controls that has a lot of power. Now, as of today, or as of two weeks ago, anyway, the United States effectively controlled it. That was the other reason we had all those military bases in the Persian Gulf.

• 12:38Tucker Carlson?

  Another was to protect Israel, our only real ally in the Gulf. But a competing reason, maybe the primary reason, hard to know, certainly a big reason, was to protect the flow of energy through the Straits of Hormuz. And now, the US has been unfortunately, tragically unable to guarantee the passage of energy through that strait. Now, let's hope that changes. But if the Iranian regime has not toppled in this conflict, there's a pretty good chance that they will have control. Who else would? American bases have been degraded, in some cases destroyed. This war is so expensive, even now, less than two weeks in, it's hard to see how we could afford to expand our presence there.

• 13:22Tucker Carlson?

  And then on a political level, how much will is there for that? We've got to send more troops to the Persian Gulf. So as noted, right after this broke out, one of the whole purposes, one of the goals of this exercise from the perspective of Israel, was to get the United States out of the Middle East. So Israel could be the dominant regional power, the hegemon, so it could expand its territory without getting hassled by the US State Department, without asking permission from the US President.

• 13:46Tucker Carlson?

  And so Israel could control it because Israel sees itself and is actually just factually an emerging power. It's a nuclear armed power. And from their perspective, like, why wouldn't we control the region? And so that's their goal. But one impediment to that is Iran, which is opposed to Israel's existence and has been funding proxies to fight against Israel, most notably Hezbollah in Lebanon, but also Hamas, the Houthis in Yemen, et cetera, et cetera. So you've got to get rid of the Iranian leadership, probably just turn the country into chaotic civil war because that suits Israel's purposes, and you've got to get the US out. So they've already done a lot to achieve the second goal, get the US out.

• 14:26Tucker Carlson?

  It's hard to see how the United States can guarantee safe passage of shipping through the Straits of Hormuz after this. We can't now. And if the Iranian regime remains, they're the ones the rest of the world is going to have to negotiate with. So just to be totally clear, Japan, South Korea, China, India, the European nations, 40% of the heat in British homes comes from LNG from Qatar, moved by boat. So big countries, some of them allies, some of them rivals, have a structural interest in this region, and it's not going away.

• 15:05Tucker Carlson?

  So in the end, it seems possible, if not likely, that a resolution to the core economic question here, which is shipping, will be resolved by those countries, directly talking to Iran. So China, India, come in and they negotiate with Iran to open the straits. Think about that for a second. Does that diminish or enhance Iran's power? Well, you're negotiating directly with China, India, South Korea, Japan, Europe. You're more powerful than you were when this started. And that's a huge embarrassment to the United States. It's a huge...

• 15:47Tucker Carlson?

  Reduction in American power, we were not able to force our will on this critical part of the world. We couldn't keep the peace. In fact, we shattered the peace. And we weren't able to restore order once we did. And guess who did? Oh, our other global rivals. That seems very likely. But from a regional perspective, this is a huge deal to the Gulf states, which have just been bombed for 12 days and really damaged in some cases by Iran. But the biggest problem this poses is for Israel, because Iran is a sincere opponent of Israel. At this point, more so than ever. It has been for a long

• 16:29Tucker Carlson?

  time. They say it openly. They're one of the few countries in the world that opposes Israel's so-called right to exist. Israel has every reason to regard Iran as an enemy. Iran is an enemy of Israel, and again, now more than ever. So if Iran emerges with its leadership intact, with a leadership that might be even more anti-Israel than it was three weeks ago, why wouldn't it be? We just killed their leader, their 86-year-old religious leader, and his family. How does Israel live with that? And if Israel doesn't live with that, what are its options? If you start to think about this for about two minutes, it gets, it gets bracing, gets a little scary. It's hard to know exactly how much

• 17:14Tucker Carlson?

  damage the IRGC, the Iranians, have done to Israel because there's so much censorship. But we know, we can conclude fairly confidently from available information, that the port of Haifa, which is the most important port in Israel, controlled by the Chinese, I think, actually, interesting, and Tel Aviv, the second biggest city in Israel, have been hammered, hammered. And there has been widespread infrastructure destruction, and there's been loss of life of some kind. We don't know, but the video that seems real, they're hurting. And the Israelis have been dealing with this kind of stuff for a long time. It's not the first time their cities have been shelled. They've been shelled a lot over the years. And so their tolerance for this kind of stuff is much higher than it would be in the United

• 17:58Tucker Carlson?

  States. If you shelled Chicago, you know, people here have no experience of that, and understandably, they'd be, you know, completely freaked out by it. Israel, they've got a little stronger immune system, this kind of stuff, because they're already fighting a seven-front war. On the other hand, there's only so much that any country can take, particularly a small country, that is riven by all kinds of internal divisions. Israel is not a united country at all. And its leader, while he's very popular with Ben Shapiro, is not universally loved in Israel at all. So Israel is not entirely stable internally, and it's absorbing a lot of punishment for a small country. But let's say that punishment accelerates. Let's say the Iranians decide, "We're going to really hurt Israel, and we're not going to limit it to Haifa and Tel Aviv.

• 18:43Tucker Carlson?

  We're going to hit Jerusalem, where the holy sites are." Now, they're not apparently doing that right now, at least that we know of. Again, it's hard to know exactly what's going on because of the censorship, but it doesn't seem like they're pounding Jerusalem. But they could. And at that point, what? What happens? What if Israel and its main protector in the world, the United States, starts running low on advanced munitions and critically on missile defense? Well, that's entirely possible. There have been widespread reports that the United States, as the backstop to Israel, its main protector, is running low on those munitions. Now, why is that? Well, because we expended a lot of them, both advanced munitions and missile defense, in the last conflict that we backstopped Israel in, in June.

• 19:28Tucker Carlson?

  And we were already low then because we sent a lot of munitions to Ukraine. Now, why did we do that? What was our critical interest in Ukraine? Well, at the time, they told us, "We have to do this because it is totally immoral and a violation of our sacred norms," when a larger country just grabs the territory of a smaller country. Post-Venezuela, it's kind of harder to make that case with a straight face. So, looking back, you've got to expect a lot of the cheerleaders for the war against Russia might feel a little bit silly, might feel like the moral case they were standing on was kicked out from underneath them, because it was.

• 20:08Tucker Carlson?

  But whatever, excuse me, whatever you think about why we were there and the wisdom of it, the truth is, at the demand of the very same people who told us we had to get into this Iran war, those very same people demanded, you may recall, four years ago, that we get into the war against Russia, and that we expend billions and billions and billions, hundreds of billions of dollars in critical munitions we could use to defend ourselves in the fight against Vladimir Putin because he was Hitler. Again, things look very different right now, but at the time, everybody in DC, in both parties, bought that story. The Democrats were all for it, the Republicans were all for it.

• 20:52Tucker Carlson?

  This isn't the first bipartisan regime change war we've tried to fight, it's one of many. And in the course of that war, we expended a lot of critical munitions that we might be able to guarantee Israel's safety with now, but it looks like, from all available reports, we're running low. In fact, we're getting some, apparently, anti-drone technology from Ukraine. Savor that irony for a moment, if you would. So whatever the cause, and there'll be, one hopes, time enough for finger pointing and blame and reverse engineering and an attempt to understand what we just went through. The fact remains, it seems unlikely that the United States will be able to guarantee the safety of Israel. We can't guarantee it now, despite a real effort to. So what does that mean?

• 21:36Tucker Carlson?

  Well, it means that at some stage, it is possible that Israel will feel it has no choice, you hope they feel they have no choice, they're not doing it for fun, but in any case, they might have to resort to a nuclear strike on Iran, which would be a tragedy for the people of Iran, most of whom have nothing to do with any of this, who would get vaporized, it would be a tragedy for the region, which would be poisoned by radioactive fallout, and it would be a tragedy for the world, because the last taboo would be shattered, truly the last taboo. You can literally castrate yourself and call yourself a woman, you get applauded. There are very few taboos left. Using nuclear weapons is the last remaining big taboo, and once that is gone, we know

• 22:18Tucker Carlson?

  from the elimination of other taboos, that things change really fast. "Oh, it already happened, I think I'll try it." And you could very easily see, either quickly or over time, you know, a series of nuclear exchanges that... Kill most people on earth. So that would be a huge deal. For the first time in 80 years, a nuclear weapon would be used. And it's, it's, by the way, not an attack on Israel, to note this, though they have been very eager to threaten it in the past. Their threshold is much lower than most people's, but still, you can kind of understand it. If Israel gets targeted for destruction by Iran and the United States isn't there to reliably protect Israeli cities, they could use nukes. And then we could see truly the destruction of a lot of the world.

• 23:03Tucker Carlson?

  So you don't want that to happen. In fact, you have to stop that from happening. You have to decelerate. But how do you do that? And again, without too much gloating, because this is no time to gloat or say I told you so, this is actually one of the reasons that some people argued against this conflict in the first place, because like all wars, much easier to get in than to get out. So there are reports today, which again, could be lies, probably, again, everyone lies in war, everyone has incentive to, but there are reports that don't seem totally crazy, that envoys from the United States have suggested that our country might be open to some kind of ceasefire. Like, hey, let's settle down for a second. And the Iranians, whether they're telling the truth or not, but the fact that even

• 23:46Tucker Carlson?

  go to the trouble of lying about this tells you something, have said, no, we're not doing that. Why would we agree to a ceasefire when your previous diplomatic efforts were clearly dishonest and didn't work in any case? We couldn't trust you. Is diplomacy itself, the search for a peaceful revolution to violent conflict, is that even a category anymore? Who knows? But apparently, the Iranians have said, no, we're not interested in ceasefire. They're probably bluffing too. Of course, you know, everything's a bluff, this is the Middle East. But the fact that they're coming out and saying that does point to a fundamental problem

• 24:26Tucker Carlson?

  that propaganda aside is totally real, and that is the United States is not wholly in charge of what happens next. We can, of course, influence it, definitely, but if you're a middle-aged American, speaking for myself, and you've lived your entire life in a country that called the shots globally... A country that issued blue passports to you that were basically your amulet of protection, no one could really mess with you when you have an American passport because the United States set the terms for global trade, it had the greatest military, in the end, no one's really gonna mess with America, and if we want to shut down a war or start a war, we can, and there are no existential consequences to us, we're not gonna get blown off the map for starting a war, especially with like, small primitive countries, so we did it a lot.

• 25:10Tucker Carlson?

  But this is the first conflict of our lifetimes, where the United States is not fully in charge of what happens next, and that's because there are not, not just one, but two other players in this calculation, and as noted, the first is Iran. And they fully understand that all they need to do is survive, and by surviving, they become much more powerful than they were when this started. And they have all kinds of other reasons to want to continue, the most obvious being, and you're not allowed to say this, but it's true, is that unconditional surrender leaves you open to who knows what. And most non-degraded people, most people with any self-respect of any religion in

• 25:52Tucker Carlson?

  any part of the country, understand that you can never unconditionally surrender, because in so doing, you've given up your humanity, you can't do that. Would you unconditionally surrender your family to someone else? No, of course you wouldn't. Who would do that? And if you would do that, then you don't deserve to have a family, or be the head of household, because you're degraded. You have no self-respect, and you have no real love for those you're in charge of. It's really that simple. This is not a question of Islam versus Christianity, the West versus East, it's a question of the way people are. Unconditional surrender is a lot to ask of anybody. It took a nuclear bomb to get the Japanese to do it. It took complete destruction for the Germans to agree to it. So if we're asking for that unconditional surrender...

• 26:39Tucker Carlson?

  The Iranians understand perfectly well the stakes and they kind of can't give up. So that's the problem there. But the other more unusual problem, really without precedent, is that we are fighting this war in partnership with another country, Israel. Now, to those who say, "Well, we've done this before. You know, we had joint, we had coalition ventures, peacekeeping forces in Yugoslavia and Afghanistan and Iraq." Yeah, true. But none of those coalition partners had anything approaching decision-making authority over the mission. It was the United States and its allies, or satellite states, or countries we have troops in, in a lot of cases. And they were tagging along in the same way the South Koreans did in Vietnam.

• 27:24Tucker Carlson?

  A lot of South Korean troops in Vietnam. Most people don't remember that. Why'd they do that? Because we protected them from invasion by the Chinese and the North Koreans in 1953. So they're grateful and they accompanied us to Vietnam for a brief period as a gesture of gratitude. But they were never in charge of the plans in Vietnam. Westmoreland was in charge. LBJ was in charge. Nixon was in charge. This country has not, at least since the Second World War, handed any measure of operational control in a wartime theater to a foreign power. And why is that? Not because we don't have allies or people we like, or people we, you know, share common goals with. We've got a lot of those, or we had a lot of those.

• 28:07Tucker Carlson?

  But because no two countries' interests are identical. Even identical twins, if you spend enough time around them, are different in ways you can perceive. No two anything are exactly the same. And nations, which are complicated, don't even have that many points of intersection in their interests. There's a lot that separates the national interests of two separate countries. So if you enter a war co-joined with another country, you're going to reach a point very soon where your interests diverge from those of your partner. And in a war, the stakes are very, very high. So you would never do that, ever. If you cared about your country, why would you do that?

• 28:50Tucker Carlson?

  And of all the things that historians will reveal in the aftermath of this war, the one that some of us should be paying the closest attention to is who made that decision? Who decided it was okay for the United States to be yoked to a foreign nation in the middle of a war with a country of 92 million people? That is one of the craziest things this country's ever done, and the people who decided to do it should be exposed and they should be penalized. Because that single decision will cost, unfortunately, this is likely to be true, more American lives. It may extend this far past a point where the American interest is served. And by the way, we are approaching the point at which we get no more returns from being engaged in this war.

• 29:33Tucker Carlson?

  If you know that you're going to negotiate your way out of something in the end, in other words, if you're not going to destroy each other with nuclear weapons, demand total abject surrender, but if you think there's even a possibility you're going to have to negotiate your way out of something, you want to do it at the apogee of your power, at your most powerful point. You don't want to do it when your power is obviously decreasing, like say when you start to run out of weapons because you sent them all to Ukraine because Ben Shapiro demanded you do that. And why wouldn't you want to negotiate when your weakness is obvious? Because you'll get worse terms. The United States has a true national interest in controlling or having a say in the flow of energy out of the Persian Gulf through the Straits of Hormuz.

• 30:15Tucker Carlson?

  If you could narrow down our interests to just one, we have many interests, but just one, it's that. It's very important for the United States to have some say in that. And if we negotiate our way out when we're weaker rather than stronger, we will have less say. And if we negotiate our way out in humiliation, God forbid that doesn't happen, we will have almost no say at all. And so it is very important to begin those conversations. Now, if you think there's a possibility we could negotiate our way out, if we don't have to go to nukes, and let's hope that we do believe that. So what stands in the way? Well, again, as noted, the Iranians, they've got to be reasonable and willing to bend a little bit, and that's not easy because they're not that reasonable and they're

• 30:59Tucker Carlson?

  inflamed right now. But it's not just the Iranians, it's Israel too.

• 31:05Tucker Carlson?

  And from the very first day Israeli priorities have taken precedent over American priorities. American national interest has been pushed down and in its place has been elevated Israeli national interest. And what specifically are we talking about here? Think about the target list. So the first big strike of the war killed, eliminated the Ayatollah, who was 86 years old and not simply the head of state technically, but the head of a religion, Shia Islam. Apparently had prostate cancer and was totally willing to be murdered. So that alone should tell you, wait a second, why would we kill that guy? He may be bad. He may be the most evil person in the world. Mark Levin tells us he's

• 31:50Tucker Carlson?

  Hitler. Great. Or bad. We're against that. We're against Hitler. But killing him will have what effect? 60 seconds. Predict. Oh, maybe it will unite the country on religious grounds and make the opposition to the United States and Israel stronger. Maybe it's also a kind of point of no return, after which you can't really negotiate your way out. You killed our religious leader. What was the last time America killed a religious leader? It's not a defense of the Ayatollah. Sorry, Ben Shapiro. It's not a defense of Shia Islam. It's a defense of American national interests. And if you're having trouble remembering the last time we killed a religious leader, it's because we haven't killed any religious leaders,

• 32:34Tucker Carlson?

  at least not openly, because we don't want to start religious wars, because they're hard to fight and very hard to resolve. And how was that good for us? How was that good for our access to LNG and oil from the Gulf? Tell me, Ben Shapiro, can you find the Gulf on a map? No. So why did we do that? Now, we don't know exactly why we did that. Maybe there are American military planners who thought sincerely, hey, I've got an idea. Let's kill the Ayatollah. Then all the liberal elements in the country will rise up. They won't actually discover their latent Shia Islam and rally around an 86-year-old man who was killed along with his family. Maybe there are actually American military planners

• 33:16Tucker Carlson?

  who thought that, but more likely, there were Israeli strategists who realized that once the United States kills the Ayatollah, kind of can't get out. We're all in.

• 33:26Tucker Carlson?

  And you also got to suspect that Israeli priorities may have informed our tragic decision to bomb, and it was revealed today it was in fact tragically the US military by mistake, bombing a girls' school attached to an Iranian naval base where the daughters of naval officers went to school, and over 100 of them were killed. Well, that's just terrible, okay? America doesn't do stuff like that, and it actually doesn't. In the times that we have done it, we've apologized and prosecuted the people who did it. When civilians are killed in large numbers and it becomes public, the United States military, going back hundreds of years, has felt a moral obligation, being a Western, not an Eastern, country to apologize for the death of innocents and punish the people responsible. It's happened a lot. Because we don't do things like that.

• 34:11Tucker Carlson?

  Israel does do things like that. Israel sets off pagers in the pockets of people they can't identify. They're just out there, they're going to go off and they'll kill some terrorists and maybe some others, which they did. And that's a price they're willing to pay. That's not a price we're willing to pay because we're not Israel. So you have to wonder, like, how did this happen? So the US government is saying this was a tragedy, it was a mistake, totally believable. It was a case of bad targeting. Where did the targeting come from? That's the question. Where do we get those targeting numbers? Oh. We don't know, of course, but it's worth asking. Where do we get those numbers? And by the way, where do we get the intel upon which we made our assumptions that we

• 34:51Tucker Carlson?

  should go into Iran and that there was a huge and anxious group of liberal-minded Iranians who wanted to throw off the shackles of theocracy and that just a few choice bombs would unleash the desire for freedom within and they would do the work for us and affect regime change themselves? And that from among them would arise a pro-Western leader? Why did we think that was true? Turned out not to be true, unfortunately. Well, it may not surprise you to learn that almost all of our signals information, our SIGINT, out of Iran, is translated by our ally and partner in this war, Israel. Now, that's not to suggest that the Israelis, who have a lot of Farsi speakers among them, because there are a lot of Iranians who moved to Israel, Persian Jews who moved to Israel...

• 35:38Tucker Carlson?

  It's not to suggest that the Israeli government would in any way be tainting or withholding or mistranslating or skewing this electronic intelligence to get us into a war that doesn't serve our interests. I mean, really, who would do that? But it raises the question of incentives. So just to be clear, Israel has an incentive for the United States to stay in this conflict and make sure that Iran doesn't win, because if Iran wins, that's a massive, that's an actual existential threat to Israel, for real. Ben Shapiro's arguing existential threat to Israel. Okay. Its nuclear program was not an existential threat to Israel. An Iran that emerges intact after this conflict is an existential threat to Israel. That is true. That's not a misstatement. So they have

• 36:20Tucker Carlson?

  every incentive to keep us in and to tell us lies about the nature of the threat in Iran, about what they think is going to happen next, about chatter they pick up on the ground in Iran. They have every incentive to skew the sigint in their favor. Now, it's not even an attack on Israel, by the way. The second you join in an enterprise like this with a foreign country, you are certain to get problems like this. And by the way, to be fair, I'm trying to be fair, the Israelis apparently are a little bit frustrated too, because they look over, they've got a whole set of priorities that are very important to them, and we don't share them all. Ground troops would be a perfect example. They would like ground troops, flat out. They would like ground troops. Why wouldn't they? Our

• 37:05Tucker Carlson?

  ground troops, not theirs. They're busy invading southern Lebanon and cleansing Lebanon, including Christian villages in Lebanon, killing a priest. Now, why would Israel be invading Lebanon right now? And they've lost people doing it, by the way. It's been a slog for them. Well, strictly speaking, it's because Iran activated Hezbollah, which is a proxy for Iran, in southern Lebanon. They started attacking northern Israel. Okay. Who could have seen that coming? Just because they killed the leader of Hezbollah, Israele, a year ago, doesn't mean it doesn't exist anymore. Of course it does. But the effect of this is, not attacking anybody, just noting it, is the United States is all in, trying

• 37:46Tucker Carlson?

  to defeat Iran, push back these attacks on all of our allies in the Gulf and on Israel, and Israel is taking this opportunity to grab more land in southern Lebanon. So we're fighting Iran while they're taking over contiguous land from one of their neighbors and cleansing it of Arabs.

• 38:06Tucker Carlson?

  Huh, how is that in our interest? Why would we want to take credit for that? Why would we be in favor of that? That's a, that's a problem for Israel to deal with. But that's what they're doing. And of course, that's what, always what they were going to do because Israel is acting in what it claims is its own interest, or what Benjamin Netanyahu believes in his, is in his own interest, because we don't have the same interests. And that was very obvious in the first hours after this. When the Prime Minister of Israel, in his, I think, first remarks on the new war with Iran, said two things. One, I've been waiting for this for 40 years. This is part of a pre-existing plan, totally disconnected from Iran's modern nuclear program,

• 38:49Tucker Carlson?

  which was not in the same condition 40 years ago. If you've been thinking about something for 40 years, you're probably not describing an imminent threat. Hard to be imminent for 40 years. This is an effort to expand the territory and the influence of Israel in the Middle East. Of course, again, non-attack on Israel, it's just a fact. That's the first thing he said, revealing his motive, just saying it out loud. Wonderful thing about Israelis is, unlike Americans, they're less circumspect, just kind of say it. And the second thing he said, and I'm paraphrasing, but it's about right, he said, "In today's Torah portion, we read about the Amalekites, about Amalek." And that would be a direct reference to 1 Samuel 15, in which God commands the Israelites

• 39:33Tucker Carlson?

  to kill the Amalekites, all of them, every single one of them, to commit genocide against Amalek. The men, the women, the children, the infants, it's almost verbatim, quote, and the animals. The camels and the sheep. All of them, kill them all, wipe them off the face of the earth. In fact, God punishes the Israelites for not following his instructions and sparing some. So whatever you think of that, whether it's your theology or not, your religion or not, it almost doesn't matter. In a geopolitical context, no one has talked that way in 80 years. No national leader has stood on camera and said, "Our goal is genocide."

• 40:17Tucker Carlson?

  And not like semi-modern Nerf genocide, where you kill a lot of people, make the rest of them leave, but actual genocide, where you kill everybody and their children, quote, "and their infants and their animals." You erase any evidence that ever existed, period. It's 1 Samuel 15, in case you're interested in reading it. And it is interesting, and it, you know, it's, of course, part of Judaism, it's part of Christianity, it's the Old Testament. So it's not an attack on the verse, but to invoke that verse in the middle of a hot war and respond to it by saying, "This is what we're doing today." Amalek is Iran, is to call for genocide against your opponent.

• 41:01Tucker Carlson?

  Now, without even judging that, it's worth noting, that is not in the interest of the United States. Despite what the President said today about eliminating the country with nuclear weapons, that is not in the interest of the United States. It's not the desire of the American people to commit genocide against the Iranians? Without even considering what the downstream effects of that might be profound, without even considering that, ask yourself, is that why we're in this war? Because we think the Iranians are Amalek? They seem kind of awful and scary, and they're like, bad Islamic people, or whatever? But are we really going to try to eliminate every one of them? The men, the women, the children, the infants, the camels and the sheep?

• 41:45Tucker Carlson?

  Nah, that's not in our purview, because it's not in our interest, because, first of all, we don't do things like that, and never should. And second, how does that make us stronger and richer and more secure? I don't think it does. Israel is a different view. And so that's the point. This can never work in America's national interest as long as it is tethered to another country's national interest.

• 42:08Tucker Carlson?

  And if that doesn't work, if it doesn't work in the middle of a war, it probably doesn't work in peacetime either. It probably doesn't work to have a permanent Israeli detachment at, say, the Pentagon, where our wars are planned, or at CIA, where information is collated and analyzed. It probably doesn't work to have people in all branches of government who are dual citizens with Israel and other countries. What? Because you're always going to wind up where we are now, which is tethered to another country, which may be a good country or a bad country. We can debate that, but it's not America. And the purpose of the American government is to serve the American people, not in some abstract way in their war against radical Islam,

• 42:49Tucker Carlson?

  but in a concrete way, like nicer airports and no crime and decent schools. The things that any citizen should expect from his government. And if you're totally ignoring all of those on behalf of another country, it's just not acceptable, and it's also not sustainable. And so no matter where this goes, and again, we pray it is resolved peacefully and soon, our country needs to think through how this happened, find out in specific terms, not bury it like 9/11 and every other traumatic event over the last 50 years or 63 years. It's like, oh, we're not really sure. We need to be sure. How did this happen? How can we prevent it from happening again? A sober assessment of what went wrong.

• 43:33Tucker Carlson?

  That's what all functional institutions do. They used to be called after-action reports, and they were mandatory, so it didn't happen again. That's what the NTSB does with plane crashes. How'd this happen? We're not going to guess. We're not going to blame radical Islam.

• 43:46Tucker Carlson?

  We're going to find out whether the pedo tubes worked. We're going to find out the specifics that led to this tragedy, because we don't want more tragedies. And if we'd done that after the Iraq War, we probably wouldn't be here.

• 44:01Tucker Carlson?

  Because the Iraq War was started, which everyone knows, went on for 20 years at great cost, trillions of dollars, and the deaths of hundreds of thousands, millions of people, all in, was started under very similar circumstances. Pressure from Israel, bad intelligence, in part, not exclusively, but in part from Israel, a massive lobbying campaign by Israel-aligned pundits and think-tank people, politicians.

• 44:30Tucker Carlson?

  And if it had gone well, okay. But it didn't. And no one was ever punished for it. And more critically, no one ever explained precisely what happened. And 23 years later, that was 23 years ago this month. We're still debating why it happened and there are increasingly few people who are there and remember, I'm one of them.

• 44:53Tucker Carlson?

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• 45:39Tucker Carlson?

  Plus, Good Ranchers donates a portion of all profits go to veteran organizations. We use Good Ranchers ourselves, we love it. Their subscriber experience is super easy, order requires just a few clicks. Simple, flexible and built around your schedule. So you can support a company that sells an amazing product that honors Americans past, present and future. Visit GoodRanchers.com today. When you start your plan, you'll get to pick a free meat. They'll be included in every order for life or you get $25 off your first order by using the code TUCKER. Tucker is the code for 25 bucks off. GoodRanchers.com, American meat delivered.

• 46:15Speaker 03

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• 46:57Speaker 03

  So if you wanted to check it out, search autopilot in the app store or go to joinautopilot.com. That's joinautopilot.com. Investing has risks like the loss of principal.

• 47:08Speaker 04

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• 47:53Speaker 04

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• 48:10Tucker Carlson?

  And with that, ladies and gentlemen, an honest man, Dr. Bret Weinstein. Brett, thank you for doing this. I'm always grateful to see you in person.

• 48:18Speaker 05

  Glad to be here.

• 48:19Tucker Carlson?

  This is one of those moments, it's hard to understand what's happening. But here's what I believe to be true. The president had deep reservations about doing this. He promised repeatedly, as he campaigned for this job, that he wouldn't do this, this war with Iran. He made fun of people who suggested he do it. I don't think many of his actual employed advisors were eager to do this. That's my impression, based on the reporting. And the only people who wanted to do it were... A group of informal advisers on the outside were calling in, "You've got to do it." Mark Thiessen of the Washington Post and other people whose opinions are to imagine

• 49:01Tucker Carlson?

  taking seriously, but whatever, they wanted it and Benjamin Netanyahu wanted it. The country did not want it at all, as expressed in polling, but we did it anyway. And it's turned out to be, I think it will turn out to be unfortunately, a kind of a pivot in our history. Why did we do this? What was the point? Do you have any sense?

• 49:20Speaker 05

  Well, I've spent a lot of time thinking about that question. And I will say, I find Trump himself a fascinating and mysterious character. He's highly unusual and therefore, it's a little hard to understand.

• 49:37Tucker Carlson?

  Do you find him more mysterious now than you did 10 years ago when you first started watching, when we all first started watching?

• 49:42Speaker 05

  Well, I understand him a lot better than I did because of course, I now have so much evidence of how he behaves under different circumstances for both better and worse. But in thinking about this move, it's so, it seems like such an obvious mistake, both from the point of view of the nation and the danger of a quagmire, which I think is substantial, and the danger of a terrible outcome, which I think will likely be avoided. But I do worry about the role that nuclear weapons could play here.

• 50:25Speaker 05

  But the thing that really causes me to think there's something I can't see, is that the mistake that Trump has made here is a political mistake. If you picked one realm where I would expect Trump not to make an obvious mistake, it would be the political. I literally think we are dealing with a political genius, right? If nothing else, this person has understood the way he is viewed, the American electorate, such that he could be relied upon not to make a blunder of this scale, especially

• 51:09Speaker 05

  As his presidency hangs in the balance, which it clearly does, because if the Democrats take the Senate in addition to the House, then not only will he be impeached, which I think is highly likely with the House alone, but he will be convicted and that will be the end of his presidency. It will also be his legacy. So, why would a man who understands politics better than any of us, a guy who did what I would have told you was impossible? He beat the duopoly, both sides of it, took over the Republican Party, defeated the Democratic Party soundly. That is, that is a person with insight, making a move that seems like

• 51:53Speaker 05

  a childish blunder. And it leaves me with a very unsettling hypothesis. I don't have high confidence in it, but my concern is that this is evidence that he is not in control. He is not in control as commander in chief of his own armed forces and that he is in fact having to rationalize decisions that he would not have made and promised not to make on the campaign trail. And I don't quite know what to do with that. It's a very

• 52:34Speaker 05

  unsettling thought, but I don't, I don't see, I don't see the win here and I don't see a win in a short enough time period that this could put him ahead in the midterms. It's very hard for me to imagine that.

• 52:50Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I, you know, I think that's the least bad outcome from the perspective of the Trump administration. If Republicans get stomped in the midterms, but then somehow recover a workable majority of voters, I think they'll be thrilled. But I think that potential consequences unless the party is to find a leader who represents its voters, because it's really that simple over time. Are you addressing the concerns of your voters? If so, you probably get elected and if you're not, you probably won't.

• 53:21Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, I think it's like, you know, Gavin Newsom is going to be president if this continues on its current course. So the question is, how do you, like, what do you need to restore, actually? I mean, leaving aside how you get out of the war, which I think is very complicated, but like, how do you restore confidence in the government after the government just admitted they got Americans killed on behalf of another country, which is what they've admitted and what they did?

• 53:48Speaker 05

  Well, I mean, I will tell you, I don't think I was naive going into the last election. I have long viewed the duopoly as unbeatable and Trump is capable of a political feat in that realm that others weren't. But in terms of how compromised our governmental structures are by corruption, there was always the question as to whether or not there was enough power left in American elections to actually change our trajectory as a country. And in the aftermath of the attack on Iran, I'm shaken. I don't know. I think the answer

• 54:31Speaker 05

  I just got is it didn't matter who you voted for. The neocons had moved over to the Democratic Party. I think Iran, we know it was on their agenda for decades. I think an attack on Iran was coming. And I tweeted before this happened, "We're going to attack Iran and we're not going to be given a choice about it." And that feels like what has occurred. But I do want to say, the hypothesis that the president is not in control is one of two. The alternative hypothesis, as far as I can see it, is that he is being shown a

• 55:11Speaker 05

  very compelling false rendition of the world that has led him to act in a way that would be politically advantageous.

• 55:21Speaker 05

  And would be in the interests of the nation if what he was seeing was true, but that it isn't. Now, that's also a very unsettling possibility that he is surrounded by people who are wittingly or not showing him a picture that is unrealistic so that he would in fact put our military in harm's way and destabilize Iran, not understanding what the likely consequences were.

• 55:48Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I don't think there's any question about that. And the people who are calling to influence him, you know, are unwise, but also ignorant and have a track record of bad calls and, but, you know, possess maximum aggression. So there's no question that his fact picture was totally distorted and it still is. I mean, the overwhelming majority of Iranian signal information, signal intelligence that we receive has been translated by Israel. So, okay, it's been filtered and maybe honestly, maybe not. But yeah, he's not seeing the whole picture. Of course, no president does. But he's also, as you just suggested at the outset, which is the most interesting thing, he overrode his own instincts.

• 56:29Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 56:30Tucker Carlson?

  His amazing political instincts. People zig, he zags, he turns out to be right. He attacked the Iraq war when that was totally verboten in the Republican Party in the primaries in 2016, and it turned out to be the most resonant thing. Yes, finally, someone's saying it. Only he knew that. Only he understood that. So his instincts are like the highest level. And he ignored them. So why?

• 56:53Tucker Carlson?

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• 57:37Tucker Carlson?

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• 58:05Speaker 00

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• 58:35Speaker 06

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• 59:04Tucker Carlson?

  Tucker.

• 59:05Speaker 05

  Well, I think we need to know the answer to that question. And I think we Americans have to have a conversation with ourself about not only how broken our system is and what it is resulting in us doing, but how does it actually work? What is it that is actually driving us to do what we do? And, you know, we can see parts of it. We can see lobbying, for example. It's the loophole in our system where the system is pay for play. That is used day in and day out by corporations to get us to do things that

• 59:43Speaker 05

  are bad for our health, bad for our long-term financial well-being, and bad in every regard. But, obviously...

• 59:57Speaker 05

  Our adversaries abroad will have noticed that we have a pay-for-play system. And if they aren't taking advantage of it, that would be surprising. I would like to know why they would have missed the opportunity. So presumably, they are. And that also applies to our allies, unfortunately. That is to say, anytime somebody has an interest that is in conflict with the interests that we Americans actually have, they are in a position to nudge us in their direction. And we are undoubtedly being nudged. On the other hand, I don't think that can be the sum total of it.

• 1:00:38Speaker 05

  And I will tell you, I don't like saying any of this. I don't want to be doing this. Oh, tell me about it. But the reason that the Epstein phenomenon, whatever it was, is so important, is that it suggests a hidden power structure that was there for leverage. It is unfortunate that in the edit that we have been shown, we don't have conclusive evidence of who, what they were after, or even how the leverage worked. All we can see is strong evidence that there was something.

• 1:01:21Speaker 05

  Logically, it is implied that it was connected to intelligence services, ours, likely Israel's, who knows who else. But when you see your government, your president, functioning in ways that do not add up, it's like watching a planet behave oddly because of the gravity of some object you haven't found yet, right? There's the implication that there's something with power in this system that is undeclared. As far as we know, it's unnamed. And the central question is, what is it?

• 1:02:05Speaker 05

  How does it work? And how much effect is it having on what we do? And... I tried in my own way to raise this issue publicly. I believe we are in the midst, not only of a constitutional crisis, which arguably has been ongoing since 2001, maybe much longer, maybe 1963.

• 1:02:30Tucker Carlson?

  Around November 22nd, in that range?

• 1:02:32Speaker 05

  Um.

• 1:02:33Tucker Carlson?

  Of 1963?

• 1:02:35Speaker 05

  Yeah, exactly. Well, that's the question is, was that, was that a lone gun nut or was that a coup? And if it was a coup, did the thing that took power ever relinquish it? I don't know the answer to that question.

• 1:02:45Tucker Carlson?

  I'll just put it this way, if the US government ever goes bankrupt and disability payments stop, social security payments stop, all payments stop, medical research, the CIA will still be well-funded.

• 1:02:58Speaker 05

  Well, the CIA, I, I used to say black budget, because obviously there are black budgets, but then I realized I was using the wrong term. A black budget is a budget that is opaque to the outside world, but it still comes from somewhere. The real problem is the ability to fund your own agency.

• 1:03:20Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 1:03:21Speaker 05

  And if you have superior information about the world, you know what's going to happen because you're in part responsible or you're listening into things that are responsible, then you are in a perfect position to create a budget that is under no one's control. And I'm afraid we have rogue agencies that are independent of any structure amounted, that was imagined by our founders.

• 1:03:47Tucker Carlson?

  They're their own countries, and there's no one who's not afraid of them.

• 1:03:52Speaker 05

  No one is not afraid of them, so.

• 1:03:54Tucker Carlson?

  There's literally, I've never met anyone, the more knowledgeable someone is about the workings of government, the more afraid he is of CIA. Well, I'm not saying CIA is running around killing people, but they can, I mean, to some extent they are, but I don't think they're like murdering thousands of Americans every year, but. They'll trip you up hard if you mess with them.

• 1:04:12Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:04:12Tucker Carlson?

  That's just true. Everyone knows that.

• 1:04:13Speaker 05

  They'll gaslight you into functional insanity. They'll eliminate you.

• 1:04:18Tucker Carlson?

  They'll leak your text to the New York Times, for sure.

• 1:04:20Speaker 05

  Yeah, these things can happen. So I guess my point is, not only are we in the ongoing constitutional crisis, it's just clear that we are. What the start date is can be debated. We are also in the midst of an acute national security crisis.

• 1:04:37Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:04:38Speaker 05

  Something has control within our governmental structures that does not have our interests at heart. And I don't know what we do about that, but I know that there are-

• 1:04:49Tucker Carlson?

  Now, why do you say whatever this control mechanism is, this force, doesn't have our interests at heart?

• 1:04:59Speaker 05

  Well, I think that's evident from what we do. Most of our activity is actually negative with respect to its impact on Americans. I mean, in fact, if we simply took the resources at our disposal and pointed them at the problems that people care about,

• 1:05:22Speaker 05

  we could be vastly better off. We wouldn't live in a country with huge numbers of fentanyl zombies in every city with, you know, onerous taxation and cruddy services. The point is, we are simultaneously being drained, on the one hand, of our resources, and, on the other hand, receiving the worst conceivable service for it. What we get, I would be perfectly comfortable paying high taxes if they were making society better.

• 1:05:57Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, yes, definitely.

• 1:05:59Speaker 05

  But I'm not comfortable with paying high taxes that are used to punish me and surveil me and all of that. Of course, who would be? So-

• 1:06:11Speaker 05

  All I'm saying is that if I look at the activity of government, it is hostile to the interests of the American people. That's right. Almost always, almost always. It's like point for point, you know, it's like during COVID, you know, if you looked at what the CDC asked you to do, every single thing was the inverse of what you should have done, just to maintain your own health. It's like that. You are getting a program in which everything that you're being fed is poison rather than nutrition. So when your government behaves like that, it is about something. The fact that our founders understood the hazard

• 1:06:51Speaker 05

  of conflicts of interests was top of mind for them and that they wrote about it extensively and they had tried to build a system that was immune to it by virtue of the fact that as people detected that their government was not acting in their interests, they had the ability to replace it bloodlessly. And what I think has happened is something has overwhelmed the thinking of the founders. It's not surprising. They didn't understand what a world, you know, the internet or AI or any of these other modern influences would allow. But somehow we exist under a form of government

• 1:07:36Speaker 05

  that has a kind of democratic theater to it, but that's not how it works. And I guarantee you it works some way, right? It's, it's a functional system in a manner of speaking. The lights remain on, but it is not acting in our interests. It's basically catering to our interests exactly enough to keep us from revolting. That's about what it is.

• 1:07:59Tucker Carlson?

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• 1:08:41Tucker Carlson?

  help build a strong immune system, stronger hair, skin and nails. I threw my wig away and right back to my natural hair after using this product. You just take a scoop of it every morning in your beverage, coffee or a smoothie, and you will feel the difference every time. For a limited time, people who listen to our show get 25% off the entire order. So go to cowboycolostrum.com, use the code TUCKER at checkout. 25% off when you use that code, TUCKER at cowboycolostrum.com. Remember, you mentioned you heard it here first. By the way, you know, that's a very depressing scenario that you've just sketched out. However, it's better than civil war. Yep.

• 1:09:19Tucker Carlson?

  And people don't appreciate how difficult violence is to control and just how costly it is to people because they've never seen it because they don't know anything, actually never been anywhere. But anyone who's been around that is like, ooh, I don't want that.

• 1:09:32Tucker Carlson?

  However, I think that the current system is going to be pretty hard to maintain with this level of transparency. By which I mean, while a billion federal documents remain classified, the deep architecture of power, as you just said, is now sort of visible. It's kind of peeking beneath the surface in certain places. And you're like, well, that clearly is what's running it. I have no control over that. That, whatever it is, clearly hates me and my children.

• 1:10:00Tucker Carlson?

  It's tough when this much is disclosed all at once, and it makes society unstable and it makes people frankly revolutionary and radical. Well. Or does it? No, it does, which is another thing that's been worrying me.

• 1:10:16Speaker 05

  So part of what I do is I think about game theory, which is a little understood quadrant of logic, but a very important one. And there's a difference between an iterated game where each round is played with the knowledge that you're going to have to play the next round and the last round of the game, where you know you don't have to play another round, so you're willing to do all sorts of things that you wouldn't if you knew you had to keep playing, right? You'll burn properties that you wouldn't have burned otherwise.

• 1:10:49Tucker Carlson?

  Put it on the last hand.

• 1:10:51Speaker 05

  Yeah. So what I feel, I can't defend it as a matter of it being an obvious logical conclusion, but what I feel is that there has been a shift into an end game dynamic where something is going for broke. It's not expecting to preserve this system. It's not expecting to have to maintain it. And therefore, how much does it matter that we can see a lot in the Epstein files but prove nothing, right? How much does that really matter if we know? In fact, maybe it's even a feature, not a bug. It kind of makes us feel like we're making some kind of progress, like we've scored

• 1:11:33Speaker 05

  a big win, when in fact, is it going to change how we are able to govern ourselves? Did our power go up in knowing these things? Or was it just simply, you know, a kind of catharsis that was delivered? Fine, you can have it. What are you going to do about it? That's where I think we are.

• 1:11:53Tucker Carlson?

  I have that same sense, a strong sense, just it doesn't matter. Shed the husk.

• 1:11:59Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:12:00Tucker Carlson?

  We're moving on. And I see it in a lot of different ways. Well, in our, just the most obvious practical way, in our use of anti-missile defense.

• 1:12:11Tucker Carlson?

  Like we burned through it. And so there's no sort of backup in case like, what if something else happened around the world with a peer power? Like, we're in trouble. You wouldn't do that if you cared about the future. You wouldn't do any of this if you cared about the future. But I see it in the explicit efforts to stoke religious conflict inside our borders. And I see it with this, all Muslims are bad. I never thought in my wildest nightmares that I would be the guy defending Muslims, since I'm not a Muslim. And I'm also on the record, like, attacking Muslims a million times over the years. Foolishly, probably. But I do know that American citizens have to be treated equally, regardless of their religion, period.

• 1:12:55Tucker Carlson?

  And that attacking people on the basis of their religion in my country is the recipe for, like, disaster. It's a recipe for a country that I don't want my grandkids to grow up in. And I don't know why anyone would do that, and I'm not going to stand by for it, not because I'm like, a devotee of Allah or whatever. I'm a Protestant Christian. Well, I do love a lot of Muslims, but that's not why. I don't want to live in a country with that. Why would someone try and stoke that? What is the, what's the game here?

• 1:13:25Speaker 05

  Well, I mean, I, this is, again, this haunting sense that this is about somebody's interests that has not been publicly shared, and that we are being steered as pawns on a chessboard.

• 1:13:36Tucker Carlson?

  How can a country this big and powerful get manipulated by anybody?

• 1:13:39Speaker 05

  Well, unfortunately, the answer to that is in game theory also, which is that the personal incentives of those who are supposed to be doing our bidding in government are obviously wildly perverse. And so you can get a lot of people who are either too cowardly to know, to do what they know is right, or too corrupt to care about what's right. But I was on the beach in Clearwater a couple nights ago, watching the sunset. Very diverse crowd of mostly Americans there on the beach, families playing in the surf,

• 1:14:24Speaker 05

  people just enjoying the grandeur of the sun going down. Nobody thinking about politics, except me.

• 1:14:34Speaker 05

  But I was talking to people as I often do. I love to just strike up a conversation. It's amazing how decent most people are, how they want the same things, how they're willing to, you know, bond with you, somebody they've never met, just because you're standing on the same beach in a country in which you're more or less free. And, you know, I was thinking about how it used to be, you know, 60s, no, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s. And the fact is, this was never a fair country, you know, people start out with disadvantages. But we knew that it was supposed to be. We knew that that was the better direction to

• 1:15:19Speaker 05

  go in, and frankly, people liked it. You know, there's a reason, as dumb as, you know, the colors of Benetton or whatever it was, there's a reason that that ad campaign resonated with people, was that it is kind of cool to have friends from all sorts of different backgrounds and, you know, to feel like we've put those animosities aside for something better. And the better thing is the modern West. It's the alternative to unthinkably bad systems that have characterized all of history until the last couple hundred years.

• 1:15:54Speaker 05

  So I texted while I was on the beach to Heather, a thought that she would understand because of every conversation we've had about our predicament, something to the effect of, "These people are very broken, but within two generations, they could be pretty okay if we just stopped poisoning their bodies and their minds. We stopped lying to them and we started telling them, 'Hey, here's how you can live so that you'll be healthier

• 1:16:33Speaker 05

  and happier and all of those things. We just simply confessed what we knew about how things actually work.'" These people aren't so far from being able to go back to not caring about what color your skin is or what book your family worships, right? We liked that. It was good, and frankly, it was so good. That for a brief period, it was contagious. Anybody who saw how dynamic this country was, that people could be simultaneously free and wildly productive at the same time, and innovative like no other country ever. Once you see that, the only answer is, well, how can I get in on it? Can I come to your country and participate in it?

• 1:17:18Speaker 05

  Can I reproduce that magic in my country? People wanted it, and somebody upended it. Somebody decided that our freedom didn't matter, and they decided that they had plans. They had plans to corral us so that more of our wealth could end up in their pockets. And, you know, at first, the corruption was mundane, but it is now, it's totalizing. It has taken over the entire country, and it has left us with what looks like the theater of democracy and liberty, and some kind of cryptic but omnipresent tyranny.

• 1:18:03Speaker 05

  It's tragic, and most people don't realize how tragic it is because they don't know what the world looks like when you don't have the West functioning. They don't understand what it is like to live in a world where the question is, how are we going to exterminate those people so that they don't exterminate us? That's not a world you want to live in, and I'm afraid that we are being dragged back into that world, which is frankly so much more fundamental, that if the West breaks down, that's where we naturally go, right?

• 1:18:37Tucker Carlson?

  There's nothing, there's no other alternative.

• 1:18:38Speaker 05

  Yeah, and, and the question is really, at what scale will you see that? Is it going to be at the scale of your neighborhood, or at the scale of nations? But either way, it is an intolerable loss compared to repairing what we have, as broken as we find it.

• 1:18:55Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, if you just measure the well-being of Americans, just by the obvious measures, including life expectancy...

• 1:19:03Tucker Carlson?

  Physical vigor and health. There's no question that the population, the actual population down to the individual, has been degraded measurably over the past forty years.

• 1:19:15Speaker 05

  Visibly.

• 1:19:16Tucker Carlson?

  Visibly, visibly, and it's shocking. This is soap and all, I'm not going to even repeat it, but yes, visibly. That is exactly right. And it's super sad. It's not an opportunity to heap scorn on people, the weakest among us, oh, you're fat, or whatever. It's an invitation to empathy and uplift. It's a, it's an invitation for us to help and make this better. And also answer the question, how did it go so wrong? And it does seem like you couldn't get this condition without leaders who really wanted to hurt you. Doesn't seem accidental.

• 1:19:48Speaker 05

  Well, I mean, I will be one tick more generous. I think people do not intuit what it would be like for someone to be completely indifferent to your well-being. Right? When we look at

• 1:20:02Tucker Carlson?

  That's, that's what, you're right.

• 1:20:03Speaker 05

  What pharma has done to us.

• 1:20:05Tucker Carlson?

  Let me just say, I'm sorry that I said that.

• 1:20:07Speaker 05

  No.

• 1:20:07Tucker Carlson?

  Because it doesn't require mal-intent, it just requires indifference.

• 1:20:10Speaker 05

  Yes, and I'm not saying there isn't a whole lot of

• 1:20:12Tucker Carlson?

  No, but you're right, you're absolutely right, and I shouldn't have said that.

• 1:20:14Speaker 05

  But we all have to understand this, and I think the way to do it is to find it in yourself first. Right? The reality is, if you tapped into the suffering that is taking place at this instant around the globe, you'd melt down. Right? If you just had one instant of feeling at all, that'd be it. So you don't. You're built not to. You're built to care about things in some kind of proximity to you. Right? You care about your family, you might care about your neighbors, you might care about Charlie Kirk. You may never have met him, but you saw him, you liked the way he sounded, he felt like, like a kindred spirit.

• 1:20:59Speaker 05

  So we pay attention in some way that is biological, right? That is built not to overwhelm us so that we have empathy where it has a utility. And then something breaks out in Sudan and you may know about it, but you don't feel it in the same way. You are functionally indifferent to it, right? You know something is going on and you go to Starbucks and you buy an expensive coffee anyway.

• 1:21:29Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:29Speaker 05

  Right? So we all have that capability and it's not that we are bad people for it. It's that we are functional people because of it. But once you know that that exists, that you can be indifferent to somebody's profound suffering if it's far enough away from you. All you need to understand is there are people who seem close to you, who feel that exact way about you. You might as well be an animal on a feedlot somewhere as far as they're concerned, right? You are a source of wealth or meat or whatever. And, you know, once you get that, once you just make eye contact with that thought, it is not hard to understand how pharma works, right?

• 1:22:12Tucker Carlson?

  Totally right.

• 1:22:14Speaker 05

  Yeah, so, you know, okay. Would somebody really withhold the cure to some disease that worries us all? Because if that cure comes out, they're going to lose billions of dollars. Yeah, there are people who would do that and you'll never guess where you'll find them, right? So, you know, I guess the point is, look, we need... There aren't very many adults. Maybe there are none. Some of us are struggling to be adult in a world that misinforms us and misleads us and tries to infantilize us. But

• 1:22:50Speaker 05

  we are trapped in a system in which other people's, the slice of the pie that they have access to is their full-time preoccupation. They're trying to enlarge their slice of the pie. The way that's supposed to work, if our system functioned really well... You would increase your slice of the pie by increasing the overall size of the pie. Right? That's, that's what it says effectively on the brochure of free market democracy. Right? If you create wealth, you get rich. Nothing wrong with that. I want to live in that system. I want people who figure out how to make us all wealthier to live in really good places and enjoy, you know, the finer things in life. That, that's something that makes us all better off. But

• 1:23:36Speaker 05

  there's this other way to do it.

• 1:23:39Speaker 05

  You can increase your slice of the pie by destroying wealth. And if you don't find a way to systematically rule that out, then that's what you're going to see because it's vastly easier to do that. It's vastly easier to get wealthy at the expense of everyone else than it is to figure out how to make the pie that we all enjoy bigger. So we are suffering because a lot of people are behaving in their narrow self-interest, completely indifferent to our well-being. And that now extends deeply into the political.

• 1:24:16Tucker Carlson?

  It's almost the banality of evil, you might say.

• 1:24:18Speaker 05

  It is a decidedly economic version of the banality of evil.

• 1:24:23Tucker Carlson?

  So I,

• 1:24:26Tucker Carlson?

  you hate to say it, um, because there's no sense that I can see in which the current war benefits the United States. I just don't see it, but you know, theories are welcome. No one's ever called me to tell me how. Um, I hope so. And well, but I see a ton of ways in which individuals are becoming enriched by this war.

• 1:24:47Speaker 05

  Every time. I mean, it's ever present.

• 1:24:49Tucker Carlson?

  It's hard to believe that's real, though.

• 1:24:51Speaker 05

  Well, you know, yes, it's hard to believe it's real because we depend in order to just live your daily life and interact with the people that you actually meet. You have to take that mindset off the table. Right? You can't work in your daily life with your, your coworkers and imagine that they're scheming behind your back.

• 1:25:14Tucker Carlson?

  No, it's so true.

• 1:25:15Speaker 05

  In this way. And in general, they're not. It's just that there are enough people who are capable of this and the system selects for them and it tends to utilize them. That our overall system does not, it's not a scaled up version of your neighborhood. It's the inverse of your neighborhood. It's people behaving in exactly the opposite way that normal people do in regular interactions and,

• 1:25:40Speaker 05

  It's something you have to, you have to learn it because your daily experience won't teach it to you.

• 1:25:46Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, there, how is this resolved is the question. Let's take the military engagement off the table because that's hard to, hard to know. As noted earlier, it's difficult. Politically, it's almost as difficult to see where this goes because I think there are so many people who voted for the current administration as a last resort. Someone please listen to me, hear me, I've got problems, pay attention. And we wound up with this. So, like, how is that fixed?

• 1:26:18Speaker 05

  Well, all right, here's where my naivete is going to come out. We need somebody who is in a position of real power and influence, somebody who has better information than we on the outside do.

• 1:26:38Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:26:39Speaker 05

  To step up and take the risk, and it is a profound risk, of telling us exactly what they know. Now, I will say, I'm very upset with President Trump at the moment. I feel personally burned as somebody who worked to get him elected.

• 1:26:58Tucker Carlson?

  Yep.

• 1:26:59Speaker 05

  I did it for a reason, and frankly, if given the same choice today, I would have to make the same vote because I think what the Democratic Party offered was anti-constitutional, right? We had a demented president who they pretended wasn't, and then we had somebody who hadn't won a primary installed by the party. This is not the consent of the governed. So, I would have to vote for Trump again, just because he's at least a qualified person who was the nominee of his party through a lawful process. But I'm angry at him because I voted for no new wars, and when I voted for no new wars,

• 1:27:42Speaker 05

  Iran was top of mind for me because I knew that it was on the agenda of the neocon. So I expected somebody to try to force this to happen.

• 1:27:52Speaker 05

  However, whatever the explanation is for what President Trump has done,

• 1:28:00Speaker 05

  one can imagine him coming to the podium and telling us what's really going on across the board, what happened to our country, what happens when somebody who truly is independent of the system gets to that top job.

• 1:28:19Speaker 05

  Now, I assume there are reasons he can't do that, and I can come up with many reasons that it would not be his instinct to do that, but I think that we in the public need to consider whether the right thing to do is to say, what are our actual interests here? Our actual interests involve getting our country back and putting it on attractive functions, right, going back to being the West and ignoring race and religion and trying to prosper through innovation, right? We are not going to get there if we continue to play the same dumb political game. President Trump, I believe, was a true renegade who broke through the system even though it was built to prevent that at all costs.

• 1:29:04Speaker 05

  That is a major accomplishment. Having done so, he now knows how the system works, what it's built to do, and how it functions. And I would, I feel like the right deal to make is forgive him for whatever it is that he's participated in, in exchange for giving us the information that we need to put the country back on track. Now, maybe that's naive, maybe ridiculous.

• 1:29:36Tucker Carlson?

  I'd take that deal any day. I'd take that deal any day.

• 1:29:40Tucker Carlson?

  I think saying the truth out loud has a supernatural effect. It's, well, it has an effect to whether it's supernatural or not, in that it clarifies, but it also elevates, like, you're arguing about the right things because you're arguing on the basis of truth rather than deception. And I think even if a leader, Trump or anyone else, offered no prescription for improving things, telling the truth about what's actually happening, how things work, who's in charge, why did we do that? What's the truth about that? Let's just start with the Kennedy assassination. They, they won't even do that. So I think that would be a massive improvement.

• 1:30:19Speaker 05

  It would be, but the problem is, we would have to live up to our side of that bargain. We would have to protect him, and nobody can protect him fully. But the point is, that would be a very risky thing to do, because you're talking about forces powerful enough to have effectively captured our government, and them facing an existential threat to their power. So, everything's on the table with respect to what might be done to prevent someone like President Trump from telling us that.

• 1:30:55Tucker Carlson?

  But don't you think a prerequisite for leadership of anything, the family included, is the willingness to die for the people you lead?

• 1:31:01Speaker 05

  Yes, and in fact, that was one of the things that I think endeared President Trump to a lot of voters. They saw him stand up to an assassination attempt. So, and you know, he's not a young man, and frankly, his entire legacy is at stake. I assume his fortune isn't, but his legacy is at stake here. And so, if there was ever a moment for a person to be looking at the sum total of what they've accomplished in life, and to be saying, "This is the last chapter. What is the right thing to do?", I think this would be it. You know, in his shoes, I think it's what I would do.

• 1:31:45Speaker 05

  But, but it's a hard one to wrap your mind around, and presumably, you know, if he were to entertain the thought, then all those around him that he might consult will have whatever reaction it is that prevents such things from ever unfolding. So, you know, it would be a hell of a moment in American history if we finally got an answer to what's been going on since 1963, and what it has to do with our entanglements abroad and our dysfunctional policy at home. But... We're looking for, look, the thing about Trump was he was the surprising element that

• 1:32:28Speaker 05

  you couldn't have predicted, right? So the question is, maybe it's time for the surprising Trump to surprise us once more and to give us the insight that we won't be able to gain through any other mechanism. And, you know, it would be, um, it would be the most worthy of accomplishments. So.

• 1:32:55Tucker Carlson?

  It'd be the greatest thing, it'd be the greatest gift he could give the country. Yeah. Because the truth does set you free, actually. No matter what your religious views, I think every religion, I hope, is based on the idea of that there's an absolute truth that's knowable, or at least it's approachable, and that telling it is liberation.

• 1:33:10Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:33:11Tucker Carlson?

  And that would be true for him, too.

• 1:33:12Speaker 05

  I would think.

• 1:33:13Tucker Carlson?

  So you said you're gravely disappointed. You circulate in a world full of people like you, a lot of liberals who voted for Trump, who saw him as like a way to fix longstanding problems. How many of them feel disappointed now?

• 1:33:30Speaker 05

  Well, you know, the funny thing is, I have now several times said unforgivable things out loud on a series of different topics since 2017.

• 1:33:45Tucker Carlson?

  So you have no friends left?

• 1:33:46Speaker 05

  No, I have the greatest crop of friends ever, but the way I came by them is an important piece of the puzzle. So each time that I have stood up and said the right thing, I lose a whole group of people. They turn on me, they go silent, all sorts of things happen. And then I meet another group of people that I didn't know existed, who replaced them as my friends. And I call this the painful upgrade. I'm constantly losing people, but the quality of my friend group goes up and up each time this happens. And I will tell you, I think.

• 1:34:30Speaker 05

  Our discussion today, this one and the one that we had on Dark Horse just before, which I hope people will go listen to because there's a lot in there that I don't think you're going to hear anywhere else. But our discussions today, I expect, are going to be very costly to me. I'm hoping that the painful upgrade works and that I discover new people who, you know, are capable of replacing the ones who aren't up to the challenge.

• 1:34:59Tucker Carlson?

  Costly in what way? I don't think, I've been involved in both conversations. I don't think you've said a single radical irrational hateful thing.

• 1:35:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, I haven't. But that's what causes the problem.

• 1:35:16Tucker Carlson?

  Really? Being reasonable?

• 1:35:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, not to put too fine a point on it. But let's put it this way. If I'm frank about what the pattern really is, there are lots of people who are perfectly decent and reasonable across the board to a point. And then you get to their issue and they will absolutely turn on you for doing the exact same thing that they loved you for the last time. And I don't know what to do about that. But at some level, you know, I'm going to keep doing this and I'm going to find the tiny number of people who don't have an issue like that.

• 1:36:01Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:01Speaker 05

  Right? That's what I'm going to be left with.

• 1:36:04Tucker Carlson?

  I never knew anybody had issues like that up until COVID. Trump, really.

• 1:36:09Speaker 05

  Yeah, Trump and COVID both do it. But, you know, the woke stuff, if, you know, if you were, you know, embedded in the liberal world as I was, it functioned the same way.

• 1:36:20Tucker Carlson?

  So what do you think you said in the course of our conversations that crosses some people's line?

• 1:36:28Speaker 05

  I have broken, I think that I am acting out of the very high quality moral training that I got inside a Jewish home. I think I'm doing the job that I am supposed to be doing.

• 1:36:44Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:45Speaker 05

  But many who are aligned with the Israeli regime at this moment,

• 1:36:53Speaker 05

  view what I am saying as traitorous. I've been accused of all kinds of vile things, including ironically enough, trying to save my own hide by switching teams, which is preposterous because

• 1:37:09Tucker Carlson?

  Someone said that to you out loud?

• 1:37:12Speaker 05

  People have said a lot of things.

• 1:37:13Tucker Carlson?

  That's a very low blow.

• 1:37:17Speaker 05

  The lowest, and it came from very close quarters.

• 1:37:21Tucker Carlson?

  Actually?

• 1:37:21Speaker 05

  Yes. So that's the world I'm living in, and I will tell you, maybe I'm nuts and the peril, the actual peril to my life that I feel for speaking my mind on this topic is not the result of an actual threat. But I feel a threat. I am speaking in spite of it because I think it's the right thing to do.

• 1:37:45Tucker Carlson?

  Really? You do feel a threat?

• 1:37:48Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:37:48Tucker Carlson?

  You can feel threats. That's a real thing.

• 1:37:50Speaker 05

  Well, let me just flesh that out because I think to a lot of people, especially people who don't follow me or know me well, that may seem like, oh, come on Brett, you think anybody's paying attention to you? You really think you're that important? I think it's not the size of my audience. I don't think the size of my audience is enough to create that problem. The size of your audience is, and here I am, so there's that, but

• 1:38:16Speaker 05

  it is the fact that

• 1:38:20Speaker 05

  I try very hard to be reasonable, that I am Jewish and therefore trying to be reasonable, coming out somewhere where most Jews are not at the moment is striking. In other words, maybe if I'm saying, hey, I don't think what we're doing is in the interests of the Israeli people, I don't think it's in the interest of diaspora Jews, I think it is creating the conditions that do result in pogroms and genocides. Definitely. If I say all those things, and I, you know, I'm not hot-headed, that counts. And it potentially gets people's attention who are otherwise not going to pay attention to it.

• 1:39:04Speaker 05

  So I think that that will be perceived as very threatening to some people I don't trust at all. Who are they? Well, you know, whatever the forces are that just pushed us into a war, either strange timing or pushed us into a war outright, those people have interests of a scale I can't even conceive of. No, it's true. So what might they do to somebody who speaks out of turn? I don't know. But it actually, I'm just gonna say it. We don't have an FBI. We know that because things that need to be thoroughly investigated obviously aren't, whether that's the assassination attempt in Butler, whether it's the Zorro Ranch that

• 1:39:45Speaker 05

  never got searched that Epstein had, or the Charlie Kirk assassination. Yep. Now, all I know about the Charlie Kirk assassination is that I've been handed a story that doesn't add up. I don't know why it doesn't add up, but the fact that we didn't get to the bottom of it in some way, that we got a compelling explanation to what happened, worries me for the following reason. Now, I didn't know Charlie well. We were becoming friends and I feel confident that that would have continued and progressed rapidly, but I didn't know him all that well.

• 1:40:23Speaker 05

  But we were teamed up on a project to essentially compel the president of the danger of the mRNA shots.

• 1:40:37Speaker 05

  But that meant that I had contact with him and I knew something of what he thought. I know you knew him well. Even his public facing side was very clear about his concerns about an attack on Iran. He was not only very clear about his concerns, but he was very knowledgeable about the hazards. He was, um, he would have been a formidable voice at this moment. I don't know how we ended up in this conflict in Iran. It's, it's a head scratcher to me.

• 1:41:19Speaker 05

  It seems, as I've said to you, like such a mind blowing political error that it's hard to imagine that President Trump would have made it. But if I try to rerun the tape of how we got here, and I imagine that not only did President Trump have you in his ear, but he had Charlie in his ear, and you were both saying, hey, this doesn't make any sense. It's not a political win. It's terrible for the country and here are a spectrum of downsides that could come from this that will have impacts for generations. I don't know what effect that would have had, but I do know, and I've been concerned

• 1:42:01Speaker 05

  about it and I've been vocal about it for a very long time, that we had a policy unfolding under our collective banner as Americans, where we were toppling regimes across the Middle East, and Iran has been on that list from the beginning. We didn't get to Iran in the war on terror. Why? Because the quagmire in Iraq caused an analog for what used to be called Vietnam Syndrome. Right? Vietnam Syndrome was the unwillingness of the American public to commit troops in foreign engagements after they were traumatized by the quagmire in Vietnam.

• 1:42:44Speaker 05

  George Bush Senior famously proclaimed with glee that during the first Gulf War, which was a very easy war for us to win, that we had finally broken Vietnam Syndrome. I don't know if you remember that.

• 1:42:59Tucker Carlson?

  Very well.

• 1:43:00Speaker 05

  So he said, "We had broken Vietnam Syndrome," and what that meant was, "We've got license to start making war again." Okay, a very ominous chapter in American history. The war on terror resulted in ill-conceived adventures in the Middle East that ended badly.

• 1:43:19Speaker 05

  Iraq was so bad, and so publicly so, that the public again was traumatized by the idea of these engagements. And what that did is it put Iran on hold.

• 1:43:32Speaker 05

  The neocons didn't give it up, but it went on the back burner.

• 1:43:39Speaker 05

  I feel, and I cannot say for sure, but I feel that something was watching, and it felt the clock ticking, and its opportunity to finally bring about this war, which I think Netanyahu said he's been dreaming of for 40 years.

• 1:43:52Tucker Carlson?

  He did say that.

• 1:43:54Speaker 05

  So something wanted this war to happen, and there was the perception that the opportunity, the window was closing, so it had to be brought about quickly.

• 1:44:03Speaker 05

  Given how public Charlie was on this topic, I can't help but wonder. Now, obviously, that will sound crazy to many people, that something would have even considered such a thing. But I will say that after Charlie was killed, Benjamin Netanyahu very quickly denied responsibility for it. I was shocked by this. It did not seem natural. Now, I'm not saying that that means that anything in that quadrant was responsible for the murder. All I know is that we didn't get a decent investigation.

• 1:44:42Speaker 05

  But I did feel, and you know, maybe, I hope you will tell me that I'm imagining this. I did feel that that denial by Netanyahu was effectively a Rorschach test, and maybe designed to be one. That I was supposed to feel...

• 1:45:01Speaker 05

  Alarmed by this, and a normal person was supposed to think, "That is batshit crazy." He said they didn't do it. Obviously, they didn't do it. So, anyway, I'm not telling you that I see the evidence that somebody did it, but what I am telling you is, we've just found ourselves in a war that Charlie would have been opposed to. We know that from his public and private statements, and that he would have been a formidable force in opposition. So, what am I to think? Why, at least, we should have an investigation that tells us for sure that we know who committed the crime, and that there wasn't something

• 1:45:41Speaker 05

  larger about it. But, look, now I've said unforgivable things, it's done.

• 1:45:47Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know why that's unforgivable. I mean, this is an American citizen, someone you knew, and I don't, you're not accusing anyone of anything. And I do think, leaving aside Charlie's murder, and, you know, the question of who did it, for a foreign leader to weigh in immediately and hog all the attention and make it all about himself, and start issuing all these statements about how Charlie lived and died for Israel, is totally unforgivable. I say this as his friend. I just think, if someone did that to me after my death, I think my family would be outraged. It's not about you.

• 1:46:17Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:46:18Tucker Carlson?

  BB. So, that was disgusting behavior, from someone with a track record of disgusting behavior, but at the very least, we could say, "That's just wrong. That's not how you behave in the wake of a young man's murder." And I'm never alleged, I don't even talk about this topic, and I'm not going to now, other than to say, "I think everything you've said is entirely reasonable, and it's not an insult to the living."

• 1:46:40Speaker 05

  Well...

• 1:46:41Tucker Carlson?

  To want to know what happened to the dead.

• 1:46:42Speaker 05

  Yes, of course. And, you know, let's put it this way. If we had a healthy public discussion in which we could air crazy ideas, dismiss them because they don't stand up logically, that would be fine. But we don't have that. And, well...

• 1:47:04Speaker 05

  You've been on a lonely mission to convince the president not to engage in war in Iran and to get him to back out as quickly as possible to declare victory and go home. It hasn't gone well.

• 1:47:18Tucker Carlson?

  No, it's been a, it's been an abject failure.

• 1:47:22Speaker 05

  What do you think Charlie would have been doing if he had lived?

• 1:47:28Tucker Carlson?

  I think he'd be doing the same, of course. I, you know, if there's one topic I talk to him a lot about is this, and, uh, no, of course, and his motive was pure. Um, I sincerely believe that. His only interest was in, in the United States, and he certainly wasn't opposed to Israel. He loved Israel. He often said that. He didn't love Bibi, that's for sure. Sorry. That's a, anyone who claims otherwise is lying or doesn't know. Uh, but he did love Israel, and, um, both as a biblical concept and as a current reality, went there and liked it. But he was totally opposed to this work. He said that many times. And, um,

• 1:48:06Tucker Carlson?

  but it's, I, I do think his murder and all that has happened subsequently, whether or not they're connected, I can't say, but they've had the cumulative effect of intimidating the hell out of everybody. No one wants to pipe up. And, um, I was already all in. I've been against a war in Iran for 10 years and doing whatever in my limited power to persuade decision makers not to do it, because I don't think it's good for America. I'm not, I'm not for Iran, okay? Like, stop. I just don't think it's good for the United States. And I've said that many, many times. And this time I found that no one else wanted to say that in public because the costs seem really high. And, uh, I'm not whining, hoping I don't

• 1:48:48Tucker Carlson?

  come off as self-pitying, but that's just a fact. And so, I don't know. I think we need to re-engineer this whole thing when it's over, hopefully soon, to see how it happened. Like, how was a country of 350 million people hijacked by a determined minority of ideologues whose interest is not in that country? Like, how did that happen? And I don't, I don't think it's a matter of, like, stoking conspiracy theories against the Jews or anything like that. In fact, I don't want that at all. In fact, one of the reasons I want, full disclosure, is so everyone can settle down and stop muttering darkly.

• 1:49:21Tucker Carlson?

  I don't like dark mutterings at all. I like sunlight, to quote Justice Brandeis. And so I hope we can do that. And I hope that there's not more deception and obfuscation and hiding of the facts, because like, that just makes people hate each other.

• 1:49:36Speaker 05

  Right. That's it. I want to find out that my darkest concerns are wrong in an open enough public conversation, that it becomes apparent that they're right.

• 1:49:46Tucker Carlson?

  Or even if they're right, let's just get it over with. Like, get it over with.

• 1:49:48Speaker 05

  Whatever it is.

• 1:49:49Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, I went last week to an AA meeting. I don't go to AA meetings, but I want to my, I don't drink, but I went with a really close friend of mine, who does go a lot. And what if you've never been, I know you're not an alcoholic, you should play one for a weekend and go, because the the freedom that comes from admitting your deepest sins, your most profound weaknesses, the true liberation that comes from that, is like, it's like nothing else. There's no liberation like that. And the freedom of that, yep, yep, I did it. I did it.

• 1:50:20Speaker 05

  Well, that's it. We need, there's so much burden from what we can't discuss.

• 1:50:25Tucker Carlson?

  Yes!

• 1:50:25Speaker 05

  And don't know that clearing the decks and getting it all in the open and, you know, some kind of reset would be a wise thing for us.

• 1:50:36Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, this is like Christmas dinner at the Episcopalian house, where it's just like a lot of silence and unspoken grudges. And everyone's mad, but no one will say so. It's like, what? That's not healthy.

• 1:50:47Speaker 05

  I want to say one other thing about the, the unforgivable things that I've now said about Charlie Kirk and my concerns. I don't think it's logical to regard those concerns as preposterous, if you also regard the stakes in Iran as existential for Israel. In other words, what will people do if they think their interests are all bound up in a policy that has to happen right now, and that people are standing in the way, and therefore putting them in jeopardy of elimination?

• 1:51:29Tucker Carlson?

  Them and their children, right. And their children's children and their nation. I mean, put yourself in the position of other people. Try to see the world through their eyes, just for a second. And you can understand dynamics of it. People risk their lives to rob liquor stores.

• 1:51:42Speaker 05

  Right, right. And, you know, people, people will do anything to protect themselves and their children from a threat that they perceive.

• 1:51:53Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 1:51:54Speaker 05

  And my concern is that we are not allowed, somehow, as Americans, we have lost our right to challenge the policy on its merits. It's, you know, you, you speak logically about the likely outcome of war in Iran, and the response that comes back is about your morality. Right? That's a non sequitur. We are talking, we can talk about two different things. What are our moral obligations? And what is the logical context in which we are being asked to participate in this? Those are both worthy conversations. But when you come back at me for my logical point about this military engagement with an accusation about my character, then something

• 1:52:38Speaker 05

  has gone awry. That's not how we behave. Right? We, we have a right to air our grievances. And, you know, the marketplace of ideas can sort out which ones are right. And frankly, there's only one, there's only one metric that really matters in the end. That's predictive power. Who is it who has deployed their model and said what they think is going to happen? And has actually been insightful. Right? In the end, in science, in politics, that's the way you know who knows what's going on, is somebody who says something that has some relationship to what actually occurs.

• 1:53:13Tucker Carlson?

  And I think the opposite is also true. People with a long track record of failure shouldn't be consulted as experts.

• 1:53:21Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:53:21Tucker Carlson?

  If you've been married eight times, I'm not going to marriage counseling with you.

• 1:53:24Speaker 05

  A hundred percent. If you have a record of failure, then we should ignore you. And it doesn't matter what degree you have, or what office you hold, you're not a credible source. I guess I would also, I'm feeling a little defensive about this because.

• 1:53:37Tucker Carlson?

  About the Charlie Kirk thing?

• 1:53:39Speaker 05

  Well, yeah, about all of it, really, about the fact that, you know, my character is in question by virtue of beliefs that I, I think I've arrived at honestly, but others will imagine something else. But I will also point out, there's, there's something.

• 1:53:53Tucker Carlson?

  I'm obviously too close to this. I should say we're the same age, we're the same part of the country. We grew up in the same world. Despite differences, your family was Jewish and atheist, mine was agnostic and Christian, but whatever, we grew up in the same world. And so what you're saying to me is so self-evidently true and reasonable and moderate and sensible and logical and impressive and like, this is how we should think, that I can't even conceive of how you could be attacked for saying anything you've said. And that's not flattering, I'm being sincere. I agree with every word you've said.

• 1:54:23Speaker 05

  I get it. In a normal world, it would be fine. But we don't live in a normal world. And in fact, we live in a world in which you have been painted as a bigot in order that your opinion that what I just said is normal doesn't register. So that's what I'm concerned about.

• 1:54:43Tucker Carlson?

  But on the merits of it, how could anything you just said, I'm not even defending myself, I'm defending you. Like, how could that be construed as unreasonable, crazy, hateful? Like, I just don't see, anyone who listened to the last hour could come away like, man, Bret Weinstein, that guy, nutcase, hater.

• 1:55:03Speaker 05

  Oh, well, if you think that's not coming back, man, you're watching a different movie.

• 1:55:08Tucker Carlson?

  Well, that's an indictment on the people who make those claims.

• 1:55:10Speaker 05

  It certainly should be in a, in a fair fight. But let me also just point out, we're dealing with what appears to me to be a holy war being waged by secularists, which is confusing. But there's an awful lot of symbolism, some of it utterly deliberate in the prosecution of this war, in the whole context, right? The symbolism is important. And there's another feature that doesn't have to do with Charlie that strikes me as in the same vein.

• 1:55:53Speaker 05

  The golden pager that was given to President Trump strikes me as another Rorschach test, just like Bibi's statement after Charlie Kirk's murder.

• 1:56:07Speaker 05

  I mean, obviously, the pager operation is no joke.

• 1:56:18Speaker 05

  I understand the predicament that Israel is in, and I don't underrate the danger of being in the neighborhood that Israel is in, the danger of the dynamics of the region being about lineage versus lineage violence, and therefore I can have my, you know, high-minded Western view of their predicament, but I don't understand what it is like to live under threat from people who truly want it.

• 1:56:44Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, Hezbollah is, you know, determined to crush Israel, that's a fact.

• 1:56:47Speaker 05

  Right, so I get it, and I'm, you know, I don't think I'm, uh, I think I'm an adult when it comes to understanding what one has to do to survive under such circumstances. On the other hand, what am I to make of the fact that you have these exploding pagers used to kill terrorists? Obviously, that's not the only people who were killed, but nonetheless, that was their purpose. And then one is delivered to Trump. You can read it into totally different ways, right?

• 1:57:26Speaker 05

  The normal way to read it is that this was maybe a, um, a tasteless celebration of a successful operation and yada, yada, yada. On the other hand, it can obviously be read as a threat.

• 1:57:45Speaker 05

  And...

• 1:57:48Speaker 05

  It's hard for me to imagine. I can imagine the meeting in which somebody says, hey, maybe we should send President Trump a golden pager after our successful operation. Somebody should immediately shoot that idea down and say, no, we can't do that because it could be read in another way. Right? So, anyway, as we are struggling to understand what is taking place in our country.

• 1:58:12Tucker Carlson?

  I think it was received that way, too.

• 1:58:13Speaker 05

  You do?

• 1:58:14Tucker Carlson?

  I do.

• 1:58:15Speaker 05

  Well, you're not making me feel better.

• 1:58:18Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, come on now. Come on. Right. You know, yeah. What was that? I totally agree. I thought that at the time.

• 1:58:30Speaker 05

  And then to have Netanyahu, I broke my rule, incidentally. I don't call him Bibi, and I did earlier. Sorry. Netanyahu then later delivers a speech, in a totally separate context, of course, could mean nothing, where he's bragging that every cellphone of everybody in the room has Israeli technology in it. Whoa. That makes you think, you know? And, mind you, I'm not telling you that there is a threat there or a technology to be carried out. What I'm telling you is that feels like it is designed to divide us, where some of us will hear that in one way, and others will hear it in a different way, and we will become ununderstandable to each other.

• 1:59:12Tucker Carlson?

  Just, let's just de-politicize it for a second, and certainly deracialize it, which, you know, that's like, that's the core sin, is conflating global Jewry with the state of Israel or Bibi Netanyahu. It's like, just insane. I will never accept that. It's not true. Obviously, you're living proof it's not true. But just take all of that away. Here you have a guy who brags about fighting a seven-front war. So, this, I don't think it's ever happened in history. Has any country ever fought a seven-front war, whatever that is? It's one of the most violent people in the world. So, any allusion to violence has to be taken seriously, including gifs of pagers. I don't know. It's like, you need to experience the world on a literal level first before you start interpreting, like, what is that?

• 1:59:51Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:59:52Tucker Carlson?

  How about a basket of olives or some dates, which are some of the best in the world? Israel produces amazing dates, I can say firsthand, and a lot of other things. But why a pager?

• 2:00:05Speaker 05

  Yeah. Well, it reminds me of the, I don't know who said it first, but you know, a gentleman is someone who is never rude by accident, right? This strikes me as messages. We're talking about sophisticated people who are sending ambiguous messages

• 2:00:26Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 2:00:27Speaker 05

  with a dark interpretation. And, you know, the more generous interpretation is that, okay, there's some leverage in people feeling uncertain and, you know, maybe that's what it was. But in a world where people are, in their own minds, fending off existential threats by shaping policy, I don't know that anything's off the table. We're talking about people who, day in and day out, whether we're talking about Netanyahu or the Mossad or the IDF, we're talking about people who think in terms of who needs to die for us to persist. And the only question is, who's off the table for such considerations? That's what I want to know.

• 2:01:12Speaker 05

  Some of us should be. I'm an American. I don't owe any allegiance to Benjamin Netanyahu. He can think what he wants. He's perfectly free to say what he wants. But I have a right to speak my mind, crazy or not. As an American, that is actually my right. And I don't want to have to feel jeopardy over doing it. And I do feel jeopardy because I think the world we live in is one where

• 2:01:41Speaker 05

  people are removed who cannot be silenced.

• 2:01:45Tucker Carlson?

  I hope that when our generation dies, we're not the last generation to have the assumptions that you have, which are the most American of all assumptions. And I hope that if you're attacked for doing this interview, you will not call me to defend you because that'll just make it worse. But I'm grateful you did it. Thank you, Brett. Thank you very much.

• 2:02:03Speaker 05

  All right. Can I ask a favor before we go?

• 2:02:05Tucker Carlson?

  Anything.

• 2:02:06Speaker 05

  Okay. We did a discussion before this one for Dark Horse. I wouldn't ordinarily deliver a plug, but I actually think...

• 2:02:12Tucker Carlson?

  I hope you will. I'm proud of that conversation.

• 2:02:14Speaker 05

  Yeah, I am too. And I think, I'm hoping that even people, maybe especially people who disagree with us, will go listen to it with an open mind. I think it's a good quality conversation and you will at least get insight into how honest brokers arrive at a very different conclusion than maybe you have. I hope people inside of Israel will watch it. And anyway, I think it's also probably protective if you'll watch it and sign up for the channel. It makes it harder to ignore.

• 2:02:47Tucker Carlson?

  Amen. Thank you. I hope people will also.

• 2:02:51Speaker 05

  Thank you, Tucker.

• 2:02:52Tucker Carlson?

  Good to see you.

• 2:02:53Speaker 05

  Good to see you. Thanks for joining us. We'll be back, well, next Wednesday, live. See you then.