#77 – Alex Garland: Ex Machina, Devs, Annihilation, and the Poetry of Science

Alex Garland is a writer and director of many imaginative and philosophical films from the dreamlike exploration of human self-destruction in the movie Annihilation to the deep questions of consciousness and intelligence raised in the movie Ex Machina, which to me is one of the greatest movies on artificial intelligence ever made. I’m releasing this podcast to coincide with the release of his new series called Devs that will premiere this Thursday, March 5, on Hulu. EPISODE LINKS: Devs: https://hulu.tv/2x35HaH Annihilation: https://hulu.tv/3ai9Eqk Ex Machina: https://www.netflix.com/title/80023689 Alex IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0307497/ Alex Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Garland This conversation is part of the Artificial Intelligence podcast. If you would like to get more information about this podcast go to https://lexfridman.com/ai or connect with @lexfridman on Twitter https://twitter.com/lexfridman, LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman/, Facebook https://www.facebook.com/lexfridman, Medium https://medium.com/@lexfridman, or YouTube https://www.youtube.com/lexfridman where you can watch the video versions of these conversations. If you enjoy the podcast, please rate it 5 stars on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/artificial-intelligence/id1434243584, follow on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/2MAi0BvDc6GTFvKFPXnkCL, or support it on Patreon https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman. This episode is presented by Cash App. Download it (App Store https://apps.apple.com/us/app/cash-app/id711923939, Google Play https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.squareup.cash&hl=en_US), use code “LexPodcast”. Here’s the outline of the episode. On some podcast players you should be able to click the timestamp to jump to that time. OUTLINE: 00:00 – Introduction 03:42 – Are we living in a dream? 07:15 – Aliens 12:34 – Science fiction: imagination becoming reality 17:29 – Artificial intelligence 22:40 – The new “Devs” series and the veneer of virtue in Silicon Valley 31:50 – Ex Machina and 2001: A Space Odyssey 44:58 – Lone genius 49:34 – Drawing inpiration from Elon Musk 51:24 – Space travel 54:03 – Free will 57:35 – Devs and the poetry of science 1:06:38 – What will you be remembered for?

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lex Fridman?

  The following is a conversation with Alex Garland, writer and director of many imaginative and philosophical films, from the dreamlike exploration of human self-destruction in the movie Annihilation to the deep questions of consciousness and intelligence raised in the movie Ex Machina, which to me is one of the greatest movies in artificial intelligence ever made. I'm releasing this podcast to coincide with the release of his new series called Devs that will premiere this Thursday, March 5th, on Hulu as part of FX on Hulu. It explores many of the themes this very podcast is about, from quantum mechanics to artificial life to simulation

• 0:43Lex Fridman?

  to the modern nature of power in the tech world. I got a chance to watch a preview and loved it. The acting is great. Nick Offerman especially is incredible in it. The cinematography is beautiful and the philosophical and scientific ideas explored are profound. And for me, as an engineer and scientist, were just fun to see brought to life. For example, if you watch the trailer for the series carefully, you'll see there's a programmer with a Russian accent looking at a screen with Python-like code on it that appears to be using a library that interfaces with a quantum computer. This attention and technical detail on several levels is impressive.

• 1:25Lex Fridman?

  And one of the reasons I'm a big fan of how Alex weaves science and philosophy together in his work. Meeting Alex for me was unlikely, but it was life-changing in ways I may only be able to articulate in a few years. Just as meeting Spot Many of Boston Dynamics for the first time planted a seed of an idea in my mind, so did meeting Alex Garland. He's humble, curious, intelligent, and to me, an inspiration. Plus, he's just really a fun person to talk with about the biggest possible questions in our universe. This is the Artificial Intelligence Podcast. If you enjoy it, subscribe on YouTube, give it five stars on Apple Podcasts,

• 2:09Lex Fridman?

  support it on Patreon, or simply connect with me on Twitter at LexFriedman, spelled F-R-I-D-M-A-N. As usual, I'll do one or two minutes of ads now and never any ads in the middle that can break the flow of the conversation. I hope that works for you and doesn't hurt the listening experience. This show is presented by Cash App, the number one finance app in the App Store. When you get it, use code LexPodcast. Cash App lets you send money to friends, buy Bitcoin, and invest in the stock market with as little as $1. Since Cash App allows you to buy Bitcoin, let me mention that cryptocurrency in the context of the history of money is fascinating. I recommend A Scent of Money as a great book on this history.

• 2:54Lex Fridman?

  Debits and credits on ledgers started 30,000 years ago. The US dollar was created about 200 years ago. Bitcoin, the first decentralized cryptocurrency, was released just over 10 years ago. So, given that history, cryptocurrency is still very much in its early days of development, but it still is aiming to, and just might redefine the nature of money. So again, if you get Cash App from the App Store or Google Play and use code LexPodcast, you'll get $10, and Cash App will also donate $10 to FIRST, one of my favorite organizations that is helping advance robotics and STEM education for young people around the world.

• 3:37Lex Fridman?

  And now, here's my conversation with Alex Garland.

• 3:59Lex Fridman?

  You described the world inside the shimmer in the movie Annihilation as dreamlike, in that it's internally consistent but detached from reality. That leads me to ask, do you think, a philosophical question, I apologize, do you think we might be living in a dream or in a simulation, like the kind that the shimmer creates?

• 4:21Lex Fridman?

  We human beings here today.

• 4:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I want to sort of separate that out into two things. Yes, I think we're living in a dream of sorts. No, I don't think we're living in a simulation. I think we're living on a planet with a very thin layer of atmosphere and the planet is in a very large space and the space is full of other planets and stars and quasars and stuff like that. And I don't think, I don't think those physical objects, I don't think the matter in that universe is simulated, I think it's there. We are definitely, or it's a whole problem with saying definitely, but in my opinion, I'll just go back to that.

• 5:06Speaker 01

  We, I think it seems very like we're living in a dream state. I'm pretty sure we are. And I think that's just to do with the nature of how we experience the world. We experience it in a subjective way. And the, the thing I've learned most as I've got older in some respects is, is the degree to which reality is counterintuitive and that the things that are presented to us as objective turn out not to be objective and quantum mechanics is full of that kind of thing, but actually just day to day life is full of that kind of thing as well. So, so my understanding of the way, the way the brain works is you get some information, hit your optic nerve and then your brain makes its best guess about what it's seeing

• 5:51Speaker 01

  or what it's saying it's seeing. It may or may not be an accurate best guess. It might be an inaccurate best guess. And that, that gap, the best guess gap means that we are essentially living in a subjective state, which means that we're in a dream state. So, and I think you could enlarge on the dream state in all sorts of ways, but so yes, dream state, no simulation would be where I'd come down.

• 6:17Lex Fridman?

  So going further, deeper into that direction, you've also described that world as psychedelia.

• 6:26Lex Fridman?

  So on that topic, I'm curious about that world. On the topic of psychedelic drugs, do you see those kinds of chemicals that modify our perception as a distortion of our perception of reality or a window into another reality?

• 6:43Speaker 01

  No, I think what I'd be saying is that we live in a distorted reality and then those kinds of drugs give us a different kind of distorted.

• 6:49Lex Fridman?

  Different perspective.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. They just give an alternate distortion. And I think that what they really do is they give, they give a distorted perception, which is a little bit more allied to daydreams or unconscious interests. So if for some reason you're feeling unconsciously anxious at that moment and you take a psychedelic drug, you'll have a more pronounced unpleasant experience. And if you're feeling very calm or, or happy, you might have a good time. But, but yeah, so, so if I'm saying we're starting from a premise, our starting point is, or we're already in the slightly psychedelic state, what those drugs do is help you go further down an avenue, or maybe a slightly different avenue, but that's all.

• 7:33Lex Fridman?

  So in, in that movie, Annihilation, the, the shimmer, this alternate dreamlike state is created by, I believe, perhaps, an alien entity. Of course, everything is up to interpretation, right? But do you think there's, in our world, in our universe, do you think there's intelligent life out there? And if so, how different is it from us humans?

• 7:59Speaker 01

  Well, one of the things I was trying to do in Annihilation was to, to offer up a form of alien life that was actually alien. Because it, it, it would often seem to me that in the way we would represent aliens in, in books or cinema or television or, you know, any one of the sort of storytelling mediums, is we would always give them very human-like qualities. So they wanted to teach us about galactic federations, or they wanted to eat us, or they wanted our resources, like our water, or they want to enslave us, or whatever it happens to be, but all of these are incredibly human-like motivations.

• 8:42Speaker 01

  And I was interested in the idea of an alien that was not.

• 8:50Speaker 01

  In any way like us, it didn't share. It maybe it had a completely different clock speed. Maybe its way. So we're talking about, we're looking at each other. We're getting information. Light hits our optic nerve. Our brain makes the best guess of what we're doing. Sometimes it's right, something, you know, the thing we were talking about before. What if this alien doesn't have an optic nerve? Maybe its way of encountering the space it's in is wholly different. Maybe it has a different relationship with gravity.

• 9:19Lex Fridman?

  The basic laws of physics that operates on there might be fundamentally different. It could be a different time scale and so on.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, or it could be the same laws, could be the same underlying laws of physics. You know, it's a machine created or it's a creature created in a quantum mechanical way. It just ends up in a very, very different place to the one we end up in. So, so part of the preoccupation with annihilation was to come up with an alien that was really alien and didn't give us. And it didn't give us and we didn't give it any kind of easy connection between human and the alien. Because I think it was to do with the idea that you could have an alien that landed on this planet that wouldn't even know we were here. And we might only glancingly know it was here.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  There'd just be this strange point where the Venn diagrams connected, where we could sense each other or something like that.

• 10:13Lex Fridman?

  So in the movie, first of all, incredibly original view of what an alien life would be. And it's in that sense, it's a huge success. Let's go inside your imagination. Did the alien, that alien entity know anything about humans when it landed?

• 10:31Speaker 01

  No.

• 10:32Lex Fridman?

  So the idea is you're both, you're basically an alien. Life is trying to reach out to anything that might be able to hear its mechanism of communication. Or was it simply, was it just basically their biologist exploring different kinds of stuff?

• 10:49Speaker 01

  But you see, but this is the interesting thing is as soon as you say their biologist, you've done the thing of attributing human type motivations to it.

• 10:59Speaker 01

  I I was trying to free myself from anything.

• 11:04Lex Fridman?

  Yes.

• 11:04Speaker 01

  Like that. So all sorts of questions you might answer about this notion or alien, I wouldn't be able to answer because I don't know what it was or how it worked, you know. Yeah, I had, I gave it some, I had some rough ideas, like it had a very, very, very slow clock speed. And I thought maybe the way it is interacting with this environment is a little bit like the way an octopus will change its color forms around the space that it's in. So it's sort of reacting to what it's in to an extent, but the reason it's reacting in that way is indeterminate.

• 11:41Lex Fridman?

  But it's so, but its clock speed was slower than our human life clock speed or inter, but it's faster than evolution.

• 11:50Speaker 01

  Faster than our.

• 11:51Lex Fridman?

  Than our evolution.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, given the four billion years it took us to get here, then yes, maybe it started eight.

• 11:57Lex Fridman?

  If you look at the human civilization as a single organism.

• 12:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:00Lex Fridman?

  In that sense, you know, this evolution could be us, you know, the evolution of the living organisms on earth could be just a single organism and it's kind of, that's its life. Is the evolutionary process that eventually will lead to probably the, the heat death of the universe or something before that. I mean, that's, that's just an incredible idea. So you almost don't know. You've created something that you don't even know how it works.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, because anytime I tried to look into how it might work, I would then inevitably be attaching my kind of thought processes into it. And I wanted to try and put a bubble around it where I was saying, no, this is, this is alien in its most alien form. I have no real point of contact.

• 12:51Lex Fridman?

  So unfortunately I can't talk to Stanley Kubrick, so I'm really fortunate to get a chance to talk to you. Do you, on this particular notion, I'd like to ask it a bunch of different ways and we'll explore in different ways. But do you ever consider human imagination, your imagination as a window into a possible future? And that. What you're doing, you're putting that imagination on paper as a writer and then on screen as a director. And that plants the seeds in the minds of millions of future and current scientists. And so your imagination, you putting it down, actually makes it as a reality. So it's almost like a first step of the scientific method.

• 13:36Lex Fridman?

  Like you imagining what's possible in your new series with Ex Machina is actually inspiring, you know, thousands of 12-year-olds, millions of scientists, and actually creating the future you've imagined.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  Well, all I could say is that from my point of view, it's almost exactly the reverse. Because I, I see that pretty much everything I do is a reaction to what scientists are doing. I'm, I'm an interested layperson. And I, I feel, you know, this individual, I feel that the most interesting area that humans are involved in is science. I think art is very, very interesting, but the most interesting is science. And science is in a weird place because maybe around the time Newton was alive, if a very,

• 14:36Speaker 01

  very interested layperson said to themselves, I want to really understand what Newton is saying about the way the world works, with a few years of dedicated thinking, they would be able to understand the sort of principles he was laying out. And I don't think that's true anymore. I think that's stopped being true now. So I'm a pretty smart guy. And if I said to myself, I want to really, really understand what is

• 15:06Speaker 01

  Currently the state of quantum mechanics or string theory or or any of the sort of branching areas of it, I wouldn't be able to. I'd be intellectually incapable of doing it because because to to work in those fields at the moment is a bit like being an athlete. I suspect you need to start when you're 12, you know. And if you if you start in your mid twenties, start trying to understand in your mid twenties, then you're you're just never going to catch up. That's the way it feels to me. So so what I do is I try to make myself open. So so the people that you're implying maybe I would influence, it to me, it's exactly the other way around. These people are strongly influencing me. I'm thinking they're doing something fascinating. I'm concentrating and working as hard as I can to try and

• 15:50Speaker 01

  understand the implications of what they say. And in some ways, often what I'm trying to do is disseminate their ideas into a means by which it can enter a public conversation. So so Ex Machina contains lots of name checks, all sorts of existing thought experiments, you know, shadows on, you know, Plato's cave and Mary in the black and white room and all all sorts of different longstanding thought processes about sentience or consciousness or subjectivity or or gender or whatever it happens to be. And then and then I'm trying

• 16:33Speaker 01

  to marshal that into a narrative to say, look, this stuff is interesting and it's also relevant. And this is my best shot at it. So so I'm the one being influenced in my construction.

• 16:44Lex Fridman?

  That's fascinating. Of course, you would say that because you're not even aware of your own. That's probably what Kubrick would say too, right, is in in describing why how 9000 is created, the way how 9000 is created, is you're just studying what's but the reality when it when the specifics of the knowledge passes through your imagination, I would argue that you're incorrect in thinking that you're just disseminating knowledge, that the the very act of your imagination.

• 17:19Lex Fridman?

  Consuming that science, it creates something that creates the next step, potentially creates the next step. I certainly think that's true with 2001 A Space Odyssey. I think at its best, if it fails.

• 17:35Speaker 01

  It's true of that. Yeah, it's true of that, definitely.

• 17:39Lex Fridman?

  At its best, it plans something, it's hard to describe, but it inspires the next generation and it could be field dependent. So your new series has more a connection to physics, quantum physics, quantum mechanics, quantum computing. And yet Ex Machina has more artificial intelligence. I know more about AI. My sense that AI is much, much earlier in its, in the depth of its understanding. I would argue, nobody understands anything to the depth that physicists do about physics. In AI, nobody understands AI, that there is a lot of importance and role for imagination,

• 18:21Lex Fridman?

  which they think, you know, we're in that, we're Freud, imagine the subconscious. We're in that stage of AI, where there's a lot of imagination you didn't, thinking outside the box.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's interesting, the, the, the spread of discussions and the spread of anxieties that exist about AI fascinate me.

• 18:42Speaker 01

  The way in which some people are, some people seem terrified about it, whilst also pursuing it. And I've never shared that fear about AI personally. But it, but the, the way in which it agitates people and also the people who it agitates, I find, I find kind of fascinating.

• 19:04Lex Fridman?

  Are you afraid? Are you excited? Are you sad by the possibility, let's take the existential risk of artificial intelligence, by the possibility an artificial intelligence system becomes our offspring and makes us obsolete?

• 19:24Speaker 01

  I mean, it's a huge, it's a huge subject to talk about, I suppose. But, but one of the things I think is that humans are actually uh very experienced at creating new life forms. Uh, because that's why you and I are both here. And it's why everyone on the planet is here. And so, so something in the process of having a living thing that exists that didn't exist previously is very much encoded into the structures of our life and the structures of our societies. Doesn't mean we always get it right, but it does mean we've learned quite a lot about that. Um, we've learned quite a lot about what the dangers are of uh allowing things to be unchecked.

• 20:06Speaker 01

  And it's why we then create systems of checks and balances in our government. Um, and, and so on and so forth. I mean, that's not to say. The, the, the other thing is, it seems like there's all sorts of things that you could put into a machine that you would not be, so with us, we, we sort of roughly try to give some rules to live by. And some of us then live by those rules and some don't. And with a machine, it feels like you could enforce those things. So, so partly because of our previous experience and partly because of the different nature of a machine. I just don't feel anxious about it. I, I, I more, I just see all the good that, you know, broadly speaking, the good that can come from it. Um, but that, that's just my, that's just where I am on that anxiety spectrum.

• 20:50Lex Fridman?

  You know, it's kind of, there, there is a sadness. So we as humans give birth to other humans, right? But there's, and there's generations and there's often in the older generation, a sadness about what the world has become now. I mean, that's kind of.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, there is, but there's a counterpoint as well, which is that most parents would wish for a better life for their children. So there may be a regret about some things about the past, but broadly speaking, what people really want is that things will be better for the future generations, not worse. And so.

• 21:22Speaker 01

  And then it's a question about what constitutes a future generation. A future generation could involve people, it also could involve machines and it could involve a sort of cross pollinated version of the two or any, but, but none of those things make me feel anxious.

• 21:37Lex Fridman?

  It doesn't give you anxiety, it doesn't excite you, like anything that's new?

• 21:41Speaker 01

  It does, not anything that's new. I, I don't think, for example, I've got, I, I, my anxieties relate to things like social media that, that, that, so I've got plenty of anxieties about that.

• 21:53Lex Fridman?

  Which is also driven by artificial intelligence in the sense that there's too much information to be able to, an algorithm has to filter that information and present to you. So ultimately, the algorithm, a, a simple, oftentimes, simple algorithm is controlling the flow of information on social media. So that's another form of AI.

• 22:14Speaker 01

  It is, but, but at least my sense of it, I might be wrong, but my sense of it is that the, the algorithms have an either conscious or unconscious bias, which is created by the people who are making the algorithms and, and sort of delineating the areas to which those algorithms are going to lean. And so, for example, the kind of thing I'd be worried about is that it hasn't been thought about enough how dangerous it is to allow algorithms to create echo chambers, say. But that doesn't seem to me to be about the AI or the algorithm. It's, it's the naivety of the people who are constructing the algorithms to do that thing, if you see what I mean.

• 22:56Lex Fridman?

  Yes, so in, in your new series, devs, and we could speak more broadly, there's a, let's talk about the people constructing those algorithms, which in a modern society, Silicon Valley, those algorithms happen to be a source of a lot of income because of advertisements.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:14Lex Fridman?

  So let me ask sort of a question about those people. Are there, are current concerns and failures on social media, their naivety, I can't pronounce that word well, are they naive? Are they?

• 23:31Lex Fridman?

  I use that word carefully, but evil in intent or misaligned in intent. I think that's a, do they mean well and just go have an unintended consequence? Or is there something dark in them that that results in them creating a company results in that super competitive drive to be successful? And those are the people that will end up controlling the algorithms.

• 23:58Speaker 01

  At a guess, I'd say there are instances of all those things. So, so sometimes I think it's naivety. Sometimes I think it's extremely dark. And sometimes I think people are not being naive or dark. And, and then in those instances are sometimes generating things that are very benign and, and other times generating things that despite their best intentions are not very benign. It's something, I think the reason why I don't get anxious about AI in terms of, or at least AIs that have, I don't know, a relationship with, some sort of relationship

• 24:41Speaker 01

  with humans is that I think that's the stuff we're quite well equipped to understand how to mitigate. The problem is, is, is issues that relate actually to the power of humans or the wealth of humans. And that's where, that's where it's dangerous here and now. So, so what I see, I'll tell you what I sometimes feel about Silicon Valley is that it's like Wall Street in the eighties. It, it's rabidly capitalistic, absolutely rabidly capitalistic, and it's rabidly greedy. But whereas.

• 25:26Speaker 01

  In the eighties, the sense one had of Wall Street was that these people kind of knew they were sharks and in a way relished in being sharks and dressed in sharp suits and

• 25:38Speaker 01

  and and kind of lauded over other people and felt good about doing it. Silicon Valley has managed to hide its voracious Wall Street like capitalism behind hipster T-shirts and, you know, cool cafes in the place where they set up there. And and so that obfuscates what's really going on. And what's really going on is the absolute voracious pursuit of money and power. So so that that's where it gets shaky for me.

• 26:06Lex Fridman?

  So that veneer, and you you explore that brilliantly, that veneer of virtue that Silicon Valley has.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Which they believe themselves, I'm sure.

• 26:17Lex Fridman?

  Boy, so, okay, I I hope to be one of those people.

• 26:25Lex Fridman?

  And I believe that.

• 26:29Lex Fridman?

  So as a maybe a devil's advocate, term poorly used in this case.

• 26:36Lex Fridman?

  What if some of them really are trying to build a better world? I can't.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  I'm sure I think some of them are. I think I've spoken to ones who I believe in their heart feel they're building a better world.

• 26:45Lex Fridman?

  Are they not able to?

• 26:46Speaker 01

  No, no, no, they may or may not be. But it's just a zone with a lot of bullshit flying about. And there's also another thing, which is this actually goes back to. I I I always thought about some sports that later turned out to be corrupt in the way that the sport, like who who won the boxing match or how a football match got thrown or cricket match or whatever happened to be. And I used to think, well, look, if there's a lot of money, and there really is a lot of money, people stand to make millions or even billions, you will find corruption, that's gonna happen. So so it's it it's in the nature of its

• 27:28Speaker 01

  of its voracious appetite that some people will be corrupt and some people will exploit and some people will exploit whilst thinking they're doing something good. But there are also people who I think are very, very smart and very benign and actually very self-aware. And so I'm not, I'm not trying to. I'm not trying to wipe out the motivations of this entire area. But I do, there are people in that world who scare the hell out of me. Yeah, sure.

• 27:57Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, I'm a little bit naive in that, like I, I don't care at all about money. And so I'm a.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  You might be one of the good guys.

• 28:10Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, but so the thought is, but I don't have money. So my thought is if you give me a billion dollars, I would, it would change nothing and I would spend it right away on, on investing it right back and creating a good world. But your intuition is that billion, there's something about that money that maybe slowly corrupts the people around you. There's somebody gets in that corrupts your soul, the way you view the world.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  Money does corrupt. We know that. But, but there's a different sort of problem aside from just the money corrupts, you know, thing that we're familiar with in throughout history.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  And it's, it's more about the sense of reinforcement an individual gets, which is so, it effectively works like, the reason I earned all this money and so much more money than anyone else is because I'm very gifted. I'm actually a bit smarter than they are, or I'm a lot smarter than they are, and I can see the future in the way they can't. And maybe some of those people are not particularly smart. They're very lucky, or they're very talented entrepreneurs. And there's a difference between, so in other words, the, the acquisition of the money and power can suddenly start to feel like evidence of virtue.

• 29:25Lex Fridman?

  Yes.

• 29:26Speaker 01

  And it's not evidence of virtue. It might be evidence of completely different things.

• 29:29Lex Fridman?

  That's brilliantly put. Yeah, yeah, that's brilliantly put. Like, so I think one of the fundamental drivers of my current morality,

• 29:39Lex Fridman?

  let me just represent nerds in general, of all kinds, is of constant self doubt. And the signals, you know, I'm very sensitive to signals from people that tell me I'm doing the wrong thing. But when there's a huge inflow of money, it's, you're, you're, you're just, put it brilliantly, that that could become an overpowering signal that. Everything you do is right. And so your moral compass can just get thrown off.

• 30:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's that that is not contained to Silicon Valley. That's across the board.

• 30:15Lex Fridman?

  In general, yeah. Like I said, I'm from the Soviet Union. The current president is convinced, I believe, actually, he is. He wants to do really good by the country and by the world. But his moral clock may be or a compass may be off because.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's the interesting thing about evil, uh, which is that. I I think most people who do spectacularly evil things think themselves they're doing really good things. That they're not there thinking, I am a sort of incarnation of Satan. They're thinking, um, yeah, I've seen a way to fix the world and everyone else is wrong. Here I go.

• 30:53Lex Fridman?

  In fact, I um, I'm having a fascinating conversation with a historian of Stalin. And he took power is he actually got more power than almost any person in history. And he wanted, he didn't want power. He just wanted, he truly, and this is what people don't realize, he truly believed that communism will make for a better world.

• 31:18Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 31:18Lex Fridman?

  And he wanted power. He wanted to destroy the competition to make sure that we actually make communism work in the Soviet Union and then spread it across the world. He was trying to do good.

• 31:29Speaker 01

  I I I think it's it's typically the case.

• 31:33Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 31:33Speaker 01

  That that's what people think they're doing. And I think that, um, but you don't need to go to Stalin. I mean, Stalin, I think Stalin probably got pretty crazy. But actually, that's another part of it, which is that the other thing that comes from being convinced of your own virtues, that then you stop listening to the modifiers around you. And that tends to drive people crazy. It's it's it's other people that keep us sane. And if if you stop listening to them, I think you go a bit mad. That also.

• 32:01Lex Fridman?

  That's funny. Disagreement keeps us sane. To jump back for an entire generation of AI researchers, two thousand one, A Space Odyssey, put an image, the idea of human level, superhuman level intelligence into their mind. Do you ever? Sort of jumping back to Ex Machina and talk a little bit about that. Do you ever consider the audience of people who you who build the systems, the roboticists, the scientists that build the systems based on the stories you create? Which I would argue, I mean, there's literally most of the top researchers, about forty, fifty years old and plus.

• 32:44Lex Fridman?

  You know, that's their favorite movie, Two Thousand One Space Odyssey. It really is in their work. Their idea of what ethics is, of what is the target, the hope, the dangers of AI is that movie.

• 32:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:56Lex Fridman?

  Do you ever consider the the impact on those researchers when you create the work you do?

• 33:03Speaker 01

  Certainly not with Ex Machina in relation to Two Thousand One, because I'm not sure. I mean, I'd be pleased if there was, but I'm not sure. In a way, there isn't a fundamental discussion of issues to do with AI that isn't already and better dealt with by Two Thousand One. Two Thousand One does a very, very good account of of the way in which an AI might think and also potential issues with the way the AI might think. And also then a separate question about whether the AI is malevolent or benevolent. And Two Thousand One doesn't really.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  It's a slightly odd thing to be making a film when you know there's a preexisting film, which is not a really superb job.

• 33:53Lex Fridman?

  But there's questions of consciousness, embodiment, and also the same kinds of questions. Could you, because those are my two favorite AI movies. So can you compare Hal Nine Thousand and Ava? Hal Nine Thousand from Two Thousand One Space Odyssey and Ava from Ex Machina? The, in your view, from a philosophical perspective.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  But they've got different goals. The two AIs have completely different goals. I think that's really the difference. So in some respects, Ex Machina took as a premise. How do you assess whether something else has consciousness? So it was a version of the Turing test, except instead of having the machine hidden, you you put the machine in plain sight in the way that we are in plain sight of each other and say, now assess the consciousness. And in a way, it was illustrating the the the the way in which you'd assess the state of consciousness of a machine is this exactly the same way we assess the state of consciousness of each other. And in exactly the same way, that in a funny way, your sense of my consciousness is is

• 34:53Speaker 01

  actually based primarily on your own consciousness. That is also then true with the machine. And and so it it was actually about how much of the sense of consciousness is a projection rather than something that consciousness is actually containing.

• 35:09Lex Fridman?

  And has Plato's cave, I mean, this you really explored, you could argue that Hal sort of Space Odyssey explores idea of the Turing test for intelligence, not test, there's no test, but it's more focused on intelligence. And Ex Machina kind of goes around intelligence and says the consciousness of the human to human, human to robot interaction is more interest, more important, more, at least the focus of that particular, a particular movie.

• 35:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's about the interior state and and what constitutes the interior state and how do we know it's there? And and actually, in that respect, Ex Machina is as much about consciousness in general as it is to do specifically with machine consciousness.

• 35:55Lex Fridman?

  Yes.

• 35:56Speaker 01

  And it's also interesting, you know, that thing you started asking about the the dream state? And I was saying, well, I think we're all in a dream state because we're all in a subjective state.

• 36:05Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 36:05Speaker 01

  One of the things that I became aware of with Ex Machina is that the way in which people reacted to the film was very based on what they took into the film. So many people thought Ex Machina was a step, was the tale of a sort of evil robot who murders two men and escapes. And she has no empathy, for example, because she's a machine. Whereas I felt, no, she was a conscious being with a consciousness different from mine, but so what? Imprisoned and made a bunch of value judgments about how.

• 36:41Speaker 01

  To get out of that box. And there's a moment which is sort of slightly bugs me, but nobody ever has noticed it. And it's years after. So I might as well say it now, which is that after Ava has escaped, she crosses a room. And as she's crossing a room, this is just before she leaves the building, she looks over her shoulder and she smiles. And I thought, after all the conversation about tests, in a way, the best indication you could have of the interior state of someone is if they are not being observed, and they smile about something, where they're smiling for themselves. And that, to me, was evidence of Ava's true sentience, whatever that sentience was.

• 37:25Lex Fridman?

  That's really interesting. We don't get to observe Ava much,

• 37:30Lex Fridman?

  or something like a smile in any context, except through interaction, trying to convince others that she's conscious. That's beautiful.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  Exactly, yeah. But it was a small, in a funny way, I think maybe people saw it as an evil smile, like, ha, you know, I fooled them. But actually, it was just a smile. And I thought, well, in the end, after all the conversations about the test, that was the answer to the test. And then off she goes.

• 37:57Lex Fridman?

  So if we align, if we just to linger a little, a little bit longer on Hal and Ava, do you think in terms of motivation, what was Hal's motivation? Is Hal good or evil? Is Ava good or evil?

• 38:14Speaker 01

  Ava's good, in my opinion. And Hal is neutral. Because I don't think Hal is presented as having a sophisticated emotional life. He has a set of paradigms, which is that the mission needs to be completed. I mean, it's a version of the paperclip.

• 38:36Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 38:36Speaker 01

  You know?

• 38:37Lex Fridman?

  The idea that it's just, it's a super intelligent machine, but it's just performed a particular task.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:43Lex Fridman?

  And in doing that task, may destroy everybody on earth, or may, may, may achieve undesirable effects for us humans.

• 38:49Speaker 01

  Precisely.

• 38:50Lex Fridman?

  But what if? Okay.

• 38:52Speaker 01

  The very end, he says something like, I'm afraid, Dave. But that that maybe he is on some level experiencing fear, or it may be this is the terms in which it would be wise to stop someone from doing the thing they're doing, if you see what I mean.

• 39:10Lex Fridman?

  Yes, absolutely. So actually, that's funny. So that's such a, this is such a small, short exploration of consciousness that I'm afraid. And then you just with X Mach and I say, okay, we're going to magnify that part and then minimize the other part. So that's, that's a good way to sort of compare the two. But if you could just use your imagination and if Ava sort of, I don't know, ran, ran, was president of the United States. So had some power. So what kind of world would you want to create? If we, as you kind of say, good.

• 39:50Lex Fridman?

  And there is a sense that she has a really, like, there's a desire for a better human to human interaction, human to robot interaction in her. But what kind of world do you think she would create with that desire?

• 40:05Speaker 01

  See, that's a really, that's a very interesting question. That I'm going to approach it slightly obliquely, which is that if, if a friend of yours got stabbed in a mugging and you then felt very angry at the person who'd done the stabbing. But then you learned that it was a 15 year old and the 15 year old, both their parents were addicted to crystal meth and the kid had been addicted since he was 10 and he really never had any hope in the world. And he'd been driven crazy by his upbringing and did the stabbing, that would hugely modify. And it would also make you wary about that kid then becoming president of America.

• 40:46Lex Fridman?

  Right.

• 40:47Speaker 01

  And Ava has had a very, very distorted introduction into the world. So although there's nothing, as it, as it were, organically within Ava that would lean her towards badness.

• 41:03Speaker 01

  It's not that robots or sentient robots are bad. She did not. Her, her arrival into the world was being imprisoned by humans. So I'm not sure she'd be a great president.

• 41:16Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, the, the, the trajectory through which she arrived at her moral views. Have some dark elements in me.

• 41:24Speaker 01

  But I like Ava. Personally, I like Ava.

• 41:27Lex Fridman?

  Would you vote for her?

• 41:28Speaker 01

  Um, I'm, I'm having difficulty finding anyone to vote for. But in my country, or if I lived here in yours, I, I, um.

• 41:38Lex Fridman?

  So that's a yes, I guess, because the competition.

• 41:40Speaker 01

  She could easily do a better job than any of the people we've got around at the moment.

• 41:44Lex Fridman?

  Okay.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  I'd vote her over Boris Johnson.

• 41:49Lex Fridman?

  So what is a good test of consciousness? Just, we talk about consciousness a little bit more. If something appears conscious, is it conscious? You mentioned the smile.

• 42:02Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 42:03Lex Fridman?

  Which is, seems to be something done. I mean, that's a really good indication because it's a, a tree falling in the forest with nobody there to hear it. But does the appearance from a robotics perspective of consciousness mean consciousness to you?

• 42:19Speaker 01

  No, I, I don't think you could say that fully because I think you could then easily have a thought experiment, which said, we will create something which we know is not conscious, but is going to give a very, very good account of seeming conscious. And so, and, and also it would be a particularly bad test where humans are involved because humans are so quick to project sentience into things that don't have sentience. So someone could have their computer playing up and feel as if their computer is being malevolent to them when it clearly isn't. And so, so of all the things to judge consciousness, us.

• 42:58Lex Fridman?

  Humans are bad at.

• 42:58Speaker 01

  We're, we're empathy machines.

• 43:00Lex Fridman?

  So the, the flip side of that, the argument there is because we just attribute consciousness to everything almost. And, and to metamorphize everything, including Roombas. That maybe consciousness is not real, that we just attribute consciousness to each other. So you have a sense that there is something really special going on in our mind that makes us unique and gives us this subjective experience.

• 43:27Speaker 01

  There's something very interesting going on in our minds. I'm slightly worried about the word special because it it gets a bit, it nudges towards metaphysics and maybe even magic. I mean, in some ways, something magic like, which I don't think is there at all.

• 43:46Lex Fridman?

  I mean, if you think about, so there's an idea called panpsychism that says consciousness isn't everything.

• 43:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't buy that. I don't buy that. Yeah. So the idea that that there is a thing that it would be like to be the sun. Yeah, no, I don't buy that. I think that consciousness is a thing. My sort of broad modification is that usually the more I find out about things, the more illusory our instinct is and is leading us into a different direction about what that thing actually is. That that happens, it seems to me, in modern science, that happens a hell of a lot, whether it's to do with how even how big or small things are. So so my sense is that consciousness is a thing, but it isn't quite the thing

• 44:36Speaker 01

  or maybe very different from the thing that we instinctively think it is. So it's there, it's very interesting, but we may be in sort of quite fundamentally misunderstanding it for reasons that are based on intuition.

• 44:49Lex Fridman?

  So I have to ask, this is this kind of an interesting question. The Ex Machina, for many people, including myself, is one of the greatest AI films ever made. It's number two for me.

• 45:03Speaker 01

  Thanks. Yeah, it's definitely not number one. If it was number one, I'd really have to. Anyway, yeah.

• 45:08Lex Fridman?

  Whenever you grow up with something, right, you ever grow up with something, it's in the blood. But there's, one of the things that people bring up, you can't please everyone, including myself, this is what I first reacted to the film, is the idea of the lone genius. This is the criticism that people say, sort of, me as an ad researcher, I'm trying to create what Nathan is trying to do.

• 45:37Lex Fridman?

  So there's a brilliant series called Chernobyl.

• 45:40Speaker 01

  Yes, it's fantastic. Absolutely spectacular.

• 45:43Lex Fridman?

  I mean, as I, I mean, they got so many things brilliant right. But one of the things, again, the criticism there.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, they conflated lots of people into one.

• 45:52Lex Fridman?

  Into one character that represents all nuclear scientists, Joanna Komiek. You know, it's a composite character that represents all scientists. Is this what you were, is this the way you were thinking about that? Or is it just simplifies the storytelling? How do you think about the lone genius?

• 46:10Speaker 01

  Well, I'd say this, the series I'm doing at the moment is a critique in part of the lone genius concept. So yes, I'm sort of oppositional and either agnostic or atheistic about that as a concept. I mean, not entirely, you know, whether lone, lone is the right word broadly isolated. But Newton clearly exists in a sort of bubble of himself. In some respects, so does Shakespeare.

• 46:40Lex Fridman?

  So do you think we would have an iPhone without Steve Jobs? I mean, how much contribution from a genius?

• 46:45Speaker 01

  Clearly isn't a lone genius because, because there's too many other people in the sort of superstructure around him who are absolutely fundamental to, to that journey.

• 46:55Lex Fridman?

  But you're saying Newton, but that's a scientific. So there's an engineering element to building Ava.

• 47:01Speaker 01

  But just to say, what, what Ex Machina is, is really, it's a thought experiment. I mean, so it's, it's a construction of putting four people in a house. Nothing about Ex Machina adds up in all sorts of ways. In as much as that, who, who built the machine parts? Did the people building the machine parts know what they were creating? And how did they get there? And it's a thought experiment. So it doesn't, it doesn't stand up to scrutiny of that sort.

• 47:32Lex Fridman?

  I don't think it's actually that interesting of a question. But it's brought up so often that I had to ask it because that's exactly how I felt after, you know.

• 47:44Lex Fridman?

  There's something about, there was almost a, like I watched your movie the first time, at least for the first little while, in a defensive way, like, how dare this person try to step into the AI space and try to beat Kubrick? That's the way I was thinking, like, because it comes off as a movie that really is going after the deep fundamental questions about AI. So there's a, there's a kind of a, you know, nerds do this, I guess, automatically searching for the flaws.

• 48:14Speaker 01

  I do exactly the same.

• 48:17Lex Fridman?

  I think in Annihilation, in the other movie, I was be able to free myself from that much quicker, that it's a, it is a thought experiment. There's, you know, who cares if there's batteries that don't run out, right? Those kinds of questions, that's the whole point. But it's nevertheless something I wanted to bring up.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a fair, it's a fair thing to bring up. For me, you hit on the lone genius thing. For me, it was actually, people always said, Ex Machina makes this big leap in terms of where AI has got to, and also what AI would look like if it got to that point. There's another one, which is just robotics. I mean, look at the way Ava walks around a room, it's like, forget it, building that. It's, that's, that's also got to be a very, very long way off. And if you did get there, would it look anything like that? It's a thought experiment.

• 49:08Lex Fridman?

  Actually, I disagree with you. I think the way, as a ballerina, Alicia Vikander, brilliant actress, actor, that moves around, that, we're very far away from creating that, but the way she moves around is exactly the definition of perfection for a roboticist. It's like smooth and efficient. So it is where we want to get, I believe. Like, I think, so I hang out with a lot of, like, humanoid robotics people, they love elegant, smooth motion like that. That's their dream. So the way she moved is actually what I believe they would dream for a robot to move. It might not be that useful to move that, sort of, that way, but that is the definition of perfection in terms of movement.

• 49:51Lex Fridman?

  Drawing inspiration from real life, so for devs, for ex-Machina, look at characters like Elon Musk. What do you think about the various big technological efforts of Elon Musk and others like him? And that he's involved with such as Tesla, SpaceX, Neuralink? Do you see any of that technology potentially defining the future worlds you create in your work? So Tesla is automation, SpaceX is space exploration, Neuralink is brain machine interface, somehow merger of biological and electric systems?

• 50:27Speaker 01

  I'm, in a way, I'm influenced by that almost by definition because that's the world I live in. And this is the thing that's happening in that world. And I also feel supportive of it. So I think, I think amongst various things, Elon Musk has done, I'm almost sure he's done a very, very good thing with Tesla for all of us. It's really kicked all the other car manufacturers in the face. It's kicked the fossil fuel industry in the face and, and they needed kicking in the face and he's done it. So, and, and so that's the world he's part of creating and I live in that world. Just bought a Tesla, in fact.

• 51:09Speaker 01

  And so, uh, um, does that play into whatever I then make? In some ways it does, partly because I try to be a writer who, quite often filmmakers are in some ways fixated on the films they grew up with. And they sort of remake those films in some ways. I've always tried to avoid that. And so I looked at the real world to get inspiration and as much as possible, sort of by living, I think. And so, so yeah, I'm sure.

• 51:41Lex Fridman?

  Which of the directions do you find most exciting?

• 51:45Speaker 01

  Space travel.

• 51:48Lex Fridman?

  Space travel. So you haven't really explored space travel in your work. You've said, you've said something like if you had unlimited amount of money, I think on a Reddit AMA, that you would make like a multi-year series of space wars or something like that. So what is it that excites you about space exploration?

• 52:08Speaker 01

  Well, because if we have any sort of long-term future, it's that. It just simply is that. If energy and matter are linked up in the way we think they're linked up, we'll run out if we don't move. So we've got to move. And but also, how can we not? It's, it's built into us to, to do it or die trying. I was on Easter Island a few months ago, which is, as I'm sure you know, in the middle of the Pacific and, and difficult for people to have got to, but they got there.

• 52:51Speaker 01

  And I did think a lot about the way those boats must have set out into something like space. It was the ocean and, and how sort of fundamental that was to the way we are. And it, it's the one that most excites me because it's the one I want most to happen. It's the thing, it's the place where we could get to as humans. Like in a way, I could live with us never really unlocking, fully unlocking the nature of consciousness. I'd like to know, I'm really curious, but if we never leave the solar system and if we never get further out into this galaxy, or maybe even galaxies beyond our galaxy,

• 53:34Speaker 01

  that, that would, that feels sad to me because, because it's so limiting.

• 53:41Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, there's something hopeful and beautiful about reaching out any kind of exploration, reaching out across Earth. Centuries ago and then reaching out into space. So what do you think about colonization of Mars? So go to Mars. Does that excite you, the idea of a human being stepping foot on Mars?

• 53:58Speaker 01

  It does. It absolutely does. But in terms of what would really excite me, it would be leaving the solar system. Inasmuch as that, I just think, I think we already know quite a lot about Mars. And, but yes, listen, if it happened, that would be, I, I hope I see it in my lifetime. I really hope I see it in my lifetime. I, so it would be a wonderful thing.

• 54:21Lex Fridman?

  Without giving anything away, but um.

• 54:25Lex Fridman?

  The series begins with the use of quantum computers. The new series does, begins with the use of quantum computers to simulate basic living organisms. Or actually, I don't know if it's quantum computers are used, but uh, basic living organisms simulated on a screen. It's a really cool kind of demo.

• 54:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right. They're using, yes, they are using a quantum computer to simulate a uh, nematode. Yep.

• 54:49Lex Fridman?

  So returning to our discussion of simulation or thinking of the universe as a computer. Do you think the universe is deterministic? Is there a free will?

• 55:00Speaker 01

  So with the qualification of what do I know? Cause I'm a laborer, right? Labor person, but.

• 55:07Lex Fridman?

  With a big imagination.

• 55:09Speaker 01

  Thanks. With that qualification, uh, yep, I think the universe is deterministic and I see absolutely, I, I, I cannot see how free will fits into that. So, so yes, deterministic, no free will. That would be my position.

• 55:24Lex Fridman?

  And how does that make you feel?

• 55:26Speaker 01

  It, it partly makes me feel that it's exactly in keeping with the way these things tend to work out, which is that we have an incredibly strong sense that we do have free will. Um, uh, and just as we have an incredibly strong sense that time is a constant. And uh, turns out probably not to be the case, or definitely in the case of time, but, but, but it's, the, the problem I always have with free will is that it gets, I, I can never seem to find the place where it is supposed to reside.

• 56:00Lex Fridman?

  And yet you explore.

• 56:02Speaker 01

  Just but a very, very, but we have something we can call free will, but it's not the thing that we think it is.

• 56:09Lex Fridman?

  But free will, so do you, what we call free will is just.

• 56:12Speaker 01

  Is what we call it is the illusion of it.

• 56:14Lex Fridman?

  It's a subjective experience of.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:16Lex Fridman?

  The illusion.

• 56:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, which is a useful thing to have and it partly, it partly comes down to although we live in a deterministic universe, our brains are not very well equipped to fully determine the deterministic universe. So we're constantly surprised and feel like we're making snap decisions based on imperfect information. So that feels a lot like free will. It just isn't. It would be my, that's my, my guess.

• 56:41Lex Fridman?

  So in that sense, your sort of sense is that you can unroll the universe forward or backward and you will see the same thing. And you, I mean, that notion.

• 56:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, sort of, sort of, but yeah, sorry, go ahead.

• 56:57Lex Fridman?

  I mean, that notion is a bit uncomfortable to think about, that it's, you can roll it back and, and forward and.

• 57:10Speaker 01

  Well, if you were able to do it, it would certainly have to be a quantum computer.

• 57:15Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 57:15Speaker 01

  Something that worked in a quantum mechanical way in order to understand a quantum mechanical system. I guess, but, but.

• 57:25Lex Fridman?

  And so that unrolling, there might be a multiverse thing where there's a bunch of branching.

• 57:28Speaker 01

  Well, exactly, because it wouldn't follow that every time you roll it back or forward, you'd get exactly the same result.

• 57:35Lex Fridman?

  Which is another thing that's hard to wrap my mind around.

• 57:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, but, but, but that, yes, but essentially what you just described, that, that, yes, forwards and yes, backwards, but you might get a slightly different result or a very different result.

• 57:50Lex Fridman?

  Or very different, along the same lines, you've explored some really deep scientific ideas in this new series. And I mean, just in general, you're unafraid to, to, to ground yourself in some of the most amazing scientific ideas of our time. What, what are the things you've learned or ideas you find beautiful, mysterious about quantum mechanics, multiverse, string theory, quantum computing that you've learned?

• 58:15Speaker 01

  Well, I would have to say every single thing I've learned is beautiful. And one of the motivators for me is that I think that people.

• 58:27Speaker 01

  Tend not to see scientific thinking as being essentially poetic and lyrical. But but I think that is literally exactly what it is. And I think the idea of entanglement or the idea of superpositions, or the fact that you could even demonstrate a superposition or have a machine that relies on the existence of superpositions in order to function, to me is is almost indescribably beautiful. It it it uh it fills me with awe. It fills me with awe. And also, it's not it's not just a sort of grand massive awe of. But it's also delicate. It's very, very delicate and subtle.

• 59:11Speaker 01

  And uh it has these beautiful sort of nuances in it and also these completely paradigm changing thoughts and truths. So so it's it's as good as it gets, as far as I can tell. So so so broadly, everything. That doesn't mean I believe everything I read in quantum physics. Because because obviously, a lot of the interpretations are completely in conflict with each other. And who knows whether string theory will turn out to be a good description or not. But but the beauty in it, it seems undeniable. And and I do wish people more readily understood

• 59:52Speaker 01

  how beautiful and poetic science is, I would say.

• 59:59Lex Fridman?

  Science is poetry. In terms of quantum computing being used to simulate things, or just in general, the idea of simulating simulating small parts of our world, which actually current physicists are really excited about simulating small quantum mechanical systems on quantum computers, but scaling that up to something bigger like simulating life forms.

• 1:00:26Lex Fridman?

  How do you think, what are the possible trajectories of that going wrong or going right if you unroll that into the future?

• 1:00:35Speaker 01

  Well, if a bit like Ava and her robotics, you park the sheer complexity of what you're trying to do. The issues are, I think, I think it will have a profound, if you were able to have a machine that was able to project forwards and backwards accurately, it would in an empirical way show, it would demonstrate that you don't have free will. So the first thing that would happen is people would have to really take on a very, very different idea of what they were. The thing that they truly, truly believe they are, they are not. And so that, that I suspect would be very, very disturbing to a lot of people.

• 1:01:19Lex Fridman?

  Do you think that has a positive or negative effect on society? The realization that you are not, you cannot control your actions essentially, I guess, is the way that could be interpreted.

• 1:01:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, although in some ways, we instinctively understand that already because in the example I gave you of the kid in the stabbing, we would all understand that that kid was not really fully in control of their actions. So it's not an idea that's entirely alien to us, but.

• 1:01:47Lex Fridman?

  I don't know, we understand that. I think there's a bunch of people who see the world that way, but not everybody.

• 1:01:54Speaker 01

  Yes, true. Of course, true. But what this machine would do is prove it beyond any doubt because someone would say, well, I don't believe that's true. And then you'd predict, well, in 10 seconds, you're going to do this. And they'd say, no, no, I'm not. And then they'd do it and then determinism would have played its part. But I, or something like that. But actually, the exact terms of that thought experiment probably wouldn't play out. But, but still broadly speaking, you could predict something happening in another room sort of unseen, I suppose, that foreknowledge would not allow you to affect. So what effect would that have? I think people would find it very disturbing. But then after they'd got over their sense of being disturbed, which by the way, I

• 1:02:38Speaker 01

  don't even think you need a machine to, to take this idea on board. But after they've got over that, they'd still understand that even though I have no free will and my actions are in effect already determined, I still feel things.

• 1:02:54Speaker 01

  I I still care about stuff. I remember my daughter saying to me,

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  uh, she she got hold of the idea that my view of the universe made it meaningless. And she said, well, then it's meaningless. And I said, well, I can prove it's not meaningless because you mean something to me and I mean something to you. So it's not completely meaningless because there is a bit of meaning contained within this space. And so with a lack of free will space, you could think, well, this robs me of everything I am. And then you'd say, well, no, it doesn't. Because you still like eating cheeseburgers and you still like going to see the movies. And so so how big a difference does it really make? Um, but I think I I think initially people would find it very disturbing. I think I think that what would come, if you could really unlock with a determinism machine, everything,

• 1:03:46Speaker 01

  there'd be this wonderful wisdom that would come from it. And I'd rather have that than not.

• 1:03:51Lex Fridman?

  So that's a that's a really good example of a technology revealing to us humans, something fundamental about our world, about our society. So it's it's almost this creation is helping us understand ourselves. In the the same can be said about artificial intelligence. So what do you think us creating something like Eva will help us understand about ourselves? How will that change society?

• 1:04:18Speaker 01

  Well, I I would hope it would teach us some humility. Humans are very big on exceptionalism, you know? Uh, America is is constantly proclaiming itself to be the greatest nation on earth, which it may feel like that if you're an American, but it may not feel like that if you're from Finland, because there's all sorts of things you dearly love about Finland. And uh, exceptionalism is is usually bullshit. Probably not always. If we both sat here, we could find a good example of something that isn't. But as a rule of thumb, and, uh, and, and what it would do is it would teach us some humility and uh, about, you know, actually often that's what science does in a funny way.

• 1:05:00Speaker 01

  It makes us more and more interesting, but it makes us a smaller and smaller part of the thing that's interesting. And, um, I don't mind that humility at all. Uh, I, I don't think it's a bad thing. Our excesses don't tend to come from humility, you know, our excesses come from the opposite megalomania and stuff. We tend to think of consciousness as having some form of exceptionalism attached to it. I suspect if we ever unravel it, it will turn out to be less than we thought in a way.

• 1:05:31Lex Fridman?

  And perhaps your very own exceptionalist assertion earlier on in our conversation that consciousness is something belongs to us, humans, or not humans, but living organisms. Maybe you will one day find out that consciousness is in everything and that will, uh, that will humble you.

• 1:05:49Speaker 01

  If, if that was true, it would certainly humble me, although maybe, almost maybe, I don't know. I don't know what effect that would have. Um, I, I, I sort of, I mean, my understanding of that principle is along the lines of say that, that an electron has a preferred state or it may or may not pass through, uh, a bit of glass. It may reflect off, or it may go through or something like that. And, and so that feels as if a choice has been made. And, um, uh, but if, if I'm going down the fully deterministic route, I would say there's just an underlying determinism that has defined that, that has defined the preferred state

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  or the reflection or non-reflection. So, but look, yeah, you're right. If, if, if it turned out that there was a thing that it was like to be the sun, then, uh, I would, I'd be amazed and humbled and I'd be happy to be both. That sounds pretty cool.

• 1:06:47Lex Fridman?

  And it'll be, you'll say the same thing as you said to your daughter, but it's nevertheless feels something like to be me. And that, that's pretty damn good.

• 1:06:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:57Lex Fridman?

  So Kubrick created many masterpieces, including The Shining, Doctor Strangelove, Clockwork Orange. But to me, he will be remembered, I think, to many, a hundred years from now, for 2001, Space Odyssey. I would say that's his greatest film.

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 1:07:14Lex Fridman?

  You are incredibly humble. I've listened to a bunch of your interviews and I really appreciate that you're humble in your creative efforts and your work. But if I were to force you a gunpoint.

• 1:07:28Speaker 01

  Do you have a gun?

• 1:07:30Lex Fridman?

  You don't know that. The mystery is to imagine 100 years out into the future. What will Alex Garland be remembered for from something you've created already? Or feel you may feel somewhere deep inside you may still create?

• 1:07:47Speaker 01

  Well, okay, well, I'll take I'll take the question in the spirit it was asked, but very generous.

• 1:07:54Lex Fridman?

  Gunpoint.

• 1:07:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. What what I what I try to do, so therefore what I hope. Yeah, if I'm remembered, what I might be remembered for is is as someone who who participates in a conversation. And I think that often what happens is people don't participate in conversations. They make proclamations. They make statements and people can either react against the statement or can fall in line behind it. And I don't like that. So I want to be part of a conversation. I I take as a sort of basic principle. I think I take lots of my cues from science, but one of the best ones, it seems to me,

• 1:08:36Speaker 01

  is that when a scientist has something proved wrong that they previously believed in, they then have to abandon that position. So I'd like to be someone who is allied to that sort of thinking. So part of an exchange of part of an exchange of ideas. And the exchange of ideas for me is something like people in your world show me things about how the world work. And then I say, this is how I feel about what you've told me. And then other people can react to that. And it's it's not it's not to say this is how the world is. It's just to say it is interesting to think about the world in this way.

• 1:09:14Lex Fridman?

  And the conversation is one of the things I'm really hopeful about in your works. The conversation you're having is with the viewer in the sense that you you're bringing back you and several others, but you very much so sort of intellectual depth to cinema, to now series, sort of allowing film to be something that.

• 1:09:43Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, sparks a conversation, is a conversation, lets people think, allows them to think.

• 1:09:50Speaker 01

  But also, it's very important for me that if that conversation is going to be a good conversation, what that must involve is that someone like you, who understands AI, and I imagine understands a lot about quantum mechanics, if they then watch the narrative, feels, yes, this is a fair account. So it is a worthy addition to the conversation. That, for me, is hugely important. I'm not interested in getting that stuff wrong. I'm only interested in trying to get it right.

• 1:10:21Lex Fridman?

  Alex, it was truly an honor to talk to you. I really appreciate it. I really enjoy it. Thank you so much.

• 1:10:26Speaker 01

  Thank you. Thanks, man.

• 1:10:29Lex Fridman?

  Thanks for listening to this conversation with Alex Garland, and thank you to our presenting sponsor, Cash App. Download it, use code LEXPODCAST, you'll get $10, and $10 will go to First, an organization that inspires and educates young minds to become science and technology innovators of tomorrow. If you enjoy this podcast, subscribe on YouTube, give it five stars on Apple Podcasts, support it on Patreon, or simply connect with me on Twitter at @LexFriedman. And now, let me leave you with a question from Ava, the central artificial intelligence character in the movie Ex Machina, that she asked during her Turing test. What will happen to me if I fail your test?

• 1:11:14Lex Fridman?

  Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.