256. Be Kind: The Most Overlooked Driver of Success

Why being kind is the best investment. Can kindness be a company’s competitive advantage? Bonnie Hayden Cheng https://www.fastersmarter.io/guests/bonnie-hayden-cheng/ says yes — and she’s got a business metric to prove it: return on kindness. Cheng is a professor of management at City University of Hong Kong who researches how workplace behaviors affect interpersonal dynamics and well-being. In her book, The Return on Kindness https://fastersmarter.io/the-return-on-kindness, she explores how organizations that foster a culture of kindness see a measurable ROK — one marked by a more committed, more productive, and less expensive workforce. “Organizations that have this kind of culture around acts of civic virtue, helping, or showing support for people, those end up having employees that want to stay, are less likely to call in sick, are more committed, their performance goes up,” she says. “There's also benefits for the company in terms of higher productivity and efficiency, and even lower costs.” In this episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart https://www.fastersmarter.io/, Cheng and host Matt Abrahams explore how to build cultures of kindness — from Cheng’s RISE framework for kind leadership to why candor and compassion go hand-in-hand. Whether you're leading a team or simply trying to show up better for your colleagues, Cheng offers a compelling case for measuring what really matters: the return on kindness. Episode Reference Links: Bonnie Hayden Cheng https://www.fastersmarter.io/guests/bonnie-hayden-cheng/Bonnie’s Book: The Return on Kindness https://fastersmarter.io/the-return-on-kindnessEp.93 All the Feels: The Personal and Professional Power of Emotional Awareness https://www.fastersmarter.io/93-all-the-feels-the-personal-and-professional-power-of-emotional-awareness/Ep.132 Lean Into Failure: How to Make Mistakes That Work https://www.fastersmarter.io/132-lean-into-failure-how-to-make-mistakes-that-work/ Connect: Premium Signup >>>> Think Fast Talk Smart Premium https://www.fastersmarter.io/premium/Email Questions & Feedback >>> [email protected] Transcripts >>>Think Fast Talk Smart Website https://www.fastersmarter.io/256-be-kind-the-most-overlooked-driver-of-success/Newsletter Signup + English Language Learning >>>FasterSmarter.io http://fastersmarter.io/Think Fast Talk Smart >>>LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/think-fast-talk-smart/,Instagram https://www.instagram.com/thinkfasttalksmart/, YouTube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6caGRBUYZCmgDGM2RK6mxKB9jG_ccmm3Matt Abrahams >>>LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/maabrahams/ Chapters: (00:00) - Introduction (00:50) - What Is Kind Leadership? (02:52) - The RISE Framework (05:27) - Everyone Can Be a Leader (06:46) - Kindness vs. Niceness (09:15) - Kindness and Candor (10:47) - Communicating Kindness (12:46) - The Power of Tone and Pause (15:03) - Building a Culture of Kindness (17:15) - Protecting Kindness in Organizations (18:33) - The Final Three Questions (21:14) - Conclusion ******** Thank you to our sponsors. These partnerships support the ongoing production of the podcast, allowing us to bring it to you at no cost. Learn more about how Notion https://www.notion.com/?utm_source=podcasts&utm_medium=thinkfast can support your business at notion.com/thinkfast. https://www.notion.com/?utm_source=podcasts&utm_medium=thinkfast Join our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning Community and become the communicator you want to be. https://learning.fastersmarter.io/?redirect_from=podpage

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Matt Abrahams?

  In the moment, conflict is difficult for everyone. In our October newsletter, out now, you will learn ways to help yourself handle these challenges better. Not only do you get specific advice, we're also providing an infographic to help you remember. Find our newsletter on the Think Fast, Talk Smart LinkedIn page or at fastersmarter.io under Resources. In business and in communication, we focus too much on return on investment instead of looking at return on kindness. My name's Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. Today, I look forward to speaking with Bonnie Hayden Chang.

• 0:44Matt Abrahams?

  Bonnie is a professor of management at City University of Hong Kong. Her research explores how workplace behaviors affect interpersonal dynamics and well-being. She studies things such as kindness and inclusion. She is the author of the book, The Return on Kindness: How Kind Leadership Wins Talent, Earns Loyalty, and Builds Successful Companies. Welcome, Bonnie. I am super excited to have you here, and it's great to be in Hong Kong.

• 1:08Speaker 01

  Welcome to Hong Kong. I'm thrilled to be here.

• 1:10Matt Abrahams?

  Thanks. Shall we get started?

• 1:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:13Matt Abrahams?

  Your work focuses on kindness and its impact on work. Can you define what you mean by kindness and share some of the value it can provide to all of us in the workplace?

• 1:21Speaker 01

  Absolutely. So, in the book, I actually focus on kindness and leadership. So, I define kind leadership as taking intentional action in service to and for the betterment of the people under your care. And this touches on so many different aspects that a leader has authority over, right? It could be about making a people's day better through minor compliments or feedback or just making small chit-chat, but it could also be major changes that a leader takes on to reduce administrative burdens. It's also more of a worldview, because kindness isn't something that you just do when you enter the workplace. It's something that you really have to take on in the way that you see the world, that

• 2:03Speaker 01

  embodies all of these values around, these words that you associate with kindness, maybe generosity and humility. And compassion and empathy. So it really is this way that you interact with people, human to human. Some of the value of kindness in the workplace is what I call the return on kindness, or the ROK. What's interesting about the ROK is it's a nonlinear equation, right? Because kindness multiplies, it expands. And so some of the research that shows the benefits of kindness comes from meta-analysis research that showed over 3,500 business units and over 50,000 employees. That organizations that could be categorized as having a kind culture, which is different for every organization, right?

• 2:47Speaker 01

  No matter how they define their values around kindness, organizations that have this kind of culture around acts of civic virtue, or helping, or showing support for people, those are organizations that end up having employees that want to stay in the organization, right? They're less likely to call in sick, they're more committed, their performance goes up. But there's also benefits for the company in terms of higher productivity and efficiency and even lower costs.

• 3:14Matt Abrahams?

  So it sounds to me like kindness affects not just the people, but the process and then the experience that we have. And I think the measuring of return on kindness is really powerful. Because return on investment is really looking at the outcome. And kindness, return on kindness, is really looking at the experience. And I think that's a wonderful shift. I'm curious, when you try to put in place and implement kindness as a practice, kindness in your own work, what are some of the things you have found really help? Is it taking time to just listen and be present? Is it giving people extra autonomy? What does kindness actually look like when it's operationalized in organizations?

• 3:58Speaker 01

  So for leaders, I actually put together a framework around how to help leaders rise to kindness and kind leadership. And it's an easy framework to remember because it spells out R I S E. So the R in rise is about role modeling. So it really starts from the top, right? It takes a leader who commits to being kind and role modeling the behavior. Behaviors that bring that kindness forward. It's easy to be kind when things are going well in an organization. But in times of stress, how are you really enacting that kindness and showing compassion for your people? The I is about intentional flexibility. We all have different challenges at different times.

• 4:40Speaker 01

  And at some point, it's going to be the leader's challenge who needs support from the people. So how can we show flexibility for our people? And that's not just in, you know, working time, but it's also in workload. It's also in caring for their mental health. It's also in the flexibility and structure of the workday. It touches on so many different aspects and there's so much leaders can do there in terms of flexibility. The S in RISE is about supportive action. Kindness is manifested in action. So you could say that you're a kind leader all you want, but if people aren't seeing that, are you really a kind leader? So how can you support your people? Could it be emotional support? Could it be instrumental support, providing resources so that they can get their job done?

• 5:24Speaker 01

  A lot of times, people get stuck, not because of capability issues, but it's more about resource or admin or red tape issues. And then the E is about energy. A leader's energy really carries so much weight. A leader can enter a room and spread positive energy, or they can spread negative energy, and that's just going to affect your people for the rest of the day. So how can you use your energy to uplift your people?

• 5:49Matt Abrahams?

  Thanks for helping all of us rise to the occasion and be kinder leaders. It strikes me that each one of those components in R I S E helps also build a psychologically safe environment, an environment where people feel comfortable speaking up, being heard, and maybe even taking risks, which we know from a tremendous amount of research is all to the better. Are there things that employees can do in their interactions? Clearly, you've delineated what a good leader can do. But if I'm part of an organization that has kindness at its core, what are my responsibilities as an employee?

• 6:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, so actually, the RISE model, it's interesting because the way we define leaders is not necessarily someone who holds a position of authority, but leaders can be anyone in an organization. And in fact, every single person in an organization should be showing leadership qualities. So the RISE model absolutely applies to everyone in an organization. So whether it's a team leader or a team member, thinking about how to role model those behaviors that you want your team to also implement. It's about thinking about how to be flexible with my team members in workload and in the way that we interact. It's about showing support and also bringing that energy to the team. So the RISE model really has quite

• 7:03Speaker 01

  generalizable applications, which I think makes it a lot more of a practical application.

• 7:09Matt Abrahams?

  It seems to me that it puts a responsibility, a pleasurable one often, to be supportive, to take the time to care, and that helps people feel connected. But it is something that we need to reinforce. And I think a leader can do it, be it situational leader, authority-based leader, whatever, but also all of us can take the time to recognize success. So thank you for that. I feel bad because I think this question might be unkind, and that's not what we're here for. But are there times where being kind at work can put you at a disadvantage? I can imagine that being kind and building this type of supportive culture that you're talking about can slow down efficiency. It can cause people to be so focused on the socioemotional well-being that things don't get done. Is there a limit to kindness?

• 7:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's an interesting question. Going back to the definition of kindness, we can also make a distinction between kindness and niceness. So if we think about leadership, right, a nice leader is someone who does things because it's easy, right? You want to be friends with your people. You want to be the nice boss. You want to be the cool boss, the fun boss. You want to please the majority. And that's going to ultimately cause you to avoid making tough decisions or avoid tough conversations because you don't want to hurt people's feelings. Kindness is different. Kindness really embodies this aspect of toughness. Because being a kind leader doesn't mean that you are letting things slow down. So can a kind leader also hold high expectations and high standards of their people?

• 8:36Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Being a kind leader doesn't negate all the things that need to get done in an organization. And in fact, when you have kindness as the base or the foundation, it actually allows leaders to hold these tough conversations with their people because their people trust that they have their best interests at heart.

• 8:55Matt Abrahams?

  I really like that distinction between niceness and kindness. When I was first a manager, when I was an operator running organizations, I so wanted people to like me that I really went out of my way to be nice. And I was just taken advantage of, sometimes purposefully, sometimes not, but I was miserable. My boss called me over. In her words, where you can be kind, but you don't let people walk all over you. And so I lived that definitional distinction that you just made.

• 9:21Speaker 01

  It's almost like a curve linear relationship, right? So if your kindness is swinging too far to the point where you're getting to a nice leadership position where people do walk all over you, then you perhaps have to swing back a little bit more to embody the toughness that's part of the kindness.

• 9:37Matt Abrahams?

  Yeah, I think as a parent, we're often taught and you read about this notion of, it's not really tough love, but you have to be tough, you have to be firm. And from that kindness can really have meaning, right? If you're just nice, there's no deep part of that. I want to dig a little bit more. You've made the distinction between being kind and being nice. I have always thought of kindness and candor as almost opposites, where, you know, we are in an interaction and I have something to say. The polite thing to do, the kind thing to do, might not be as candid as perhaps I should be. As a leader, as a peer, we have to give feedback. We have to sometimes challenge people. What advice and guidance do you have about how to be candid and direct, but also be kind?

• 10:18Speaker 01

  So I think, again, going back to the definition where kind leadership is really embodied within this aspect of toughness, I think the candor comes into play because being a kind leader doesn't mean that you're not giving honest and direct feedback because that's actually something that can be constructive and valuable for your people. And I think authenticity really plays a key role here. That, as well as If a leader is really approaching these conversations with positive intent to the easy thing to do would be to ignore or to not have these conversations. I have better things to do with my time, but to really take that time and put into development with your people and the way that you say it, of course, matters, the framing.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  But if you're telling people with kindness as the underlying through point, I think that message is better received.

• 11:09Matt Abrahams?

  I want to come back to the framing and the actual communication because as you know, and everybody listening knows, that's really important to me. But I want to really emphasize that point that being kind is being truthful and being kind is being candid because you are trying to help the person or the team or the company be the best that it can be. And one of those charges is to, in a kind way, be very direct, and I appreciate that distinction. Let's talk a little bit about the communication of kindness. Are there things, frameworks, approaches that you have seen in your research or your own personal experience that helps people communicate kindly?

• 11:48Speaker 01

  I think one thing for leaders to do is around active listening. But for some individuals, I think maybe for newer generations, it's an abstract concept because they grew up on their phones and so they haven't had that practice of learning social communication skills. So I actually ran this with my students, an active listening exercise. They only had to do it for three minutes where they engage with an interaction partner and they had to show that they are actively listening. And it completely surprised them that it's not a passive activity, right? So active listening is really about asking questions, showing that you are attentive through your nonverbals. It's about empathizing.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  It's about clarifying your assumptions or even repeating back what you hear. And so the feedback I was getting from the students was it was really difficult, especially if they're, you know, listening to something that you're not particularly interested in. But when we bring that back to the workplace and think about leaders, there's a lot that they can do in terms of mindful connection between them and their individual team members. Just being there, being in the moment and being present with your conversation partner really shows, I think, the intent around I'm here with you now, you have my attention, let's talk about what's bothering you and let's talk about how I can help.

• 13:08Matt Abrahams?

  There's a directness to the kind communication you're talking about that I think is really important. I think a lot of people think kind communication is softer or is more ambiguous. And in fact, what I hear you saying is that there's a directness to it. Get the bottom line up there. Make it clear. But what I really find interesting is when I asked you, are there things that we can do to communicate better? The very first thing you said is listening. And it strikes me that empathy, kindness, being present are really important. And I'm curious to get your thought on this. What really struck me as you were speaking is that tone matters. How you say it, the tone you inflect. I can say something very sternly, very directly, that comes from a place of kindness and compassion. But if I say it in a tone that mirrors that value, I think it goes down much better.

• 13:53Matt Abrahams?

  What do you think about the role of tone in kindness?

• 13:56Speaker 01

  I'm glad you brought that up. Super important. And I think feedback about your tone being something that's negative or comes across as negative and isn't conveying kind of your positive intent. It's something we can practice, right? Just like we practice giving speeches and presentations. And tone could be something that we really work on. Just like we can work on the speed, the framing, and the messaging of our communication.

• 14:21Matt Abrahams?

  There's a really interesting technique we teach and that has a lot of research on it. It comes from the world of acting, which is really, if you think to yourself about the tone and the emotion you want to have by reflecting on an experience that you've had where that was present, and you recall that before you have a significant communication, you're much more likely to embody that tone. So if I am going to give you some constructive feedback, but I want to come from a place of kindness, I might remind myself of a time where somebody did that to me or I did that to them, and that puts me in that mode. Tone is one of those things that when we're stressed, when we're under pressure, goes out the window. So really focusing on it, I think, makes sense.

• 14:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Just to add to that, being able to pause if you are really heated up or something is really triggering you. I think a lot of times, people feel the pressure to fill in these gaps or these silences. And so they speak without thinking. And again, that goes back to the listening, why listening is probably the most important skill for a leader. But don't be afraid to pause, right? Or say, I need a minute. I just need to process. I need to think about this. Let me get back to you.

• 15:25Matt Abrahams?

  I want to go back to building culture of kindness. And you shared a lot of what the attributes are. I'm curious to get your thoughts about the actual building of it. It seems to me that it starts before somebody actually gets employed. It's part of the interview process. You're talking about it. You're assessing it. You're demonstrating it. Are there other ways that people can go about building a culture of kindness? And then I'm going to add a maybe even more challenging issue. How do you transition into a culture of kindness when perhaps you're not part of one?

• 15:56Speaker 01

  So in the book, I actually unpack a four step process to building kind cultures. Cultures have to be designed intentionally from the top. Otherwise, it's never going to trickle down. It's never going to scale across the organization. So it's about starting with a values refresh, right? Whatever your company's values are, where it's written on the website or written on company walls, how are you bringing that kindness forward in action? If people aren't seeing kindness or a related word in action every day, especially from leaders, they're never going to believe that's one of our culture words.

• 16:34Matt Abrahams?

  So it's not just a poster that says be kind, it's the action.

• 16:37Speaker 01

  Exactly. And then you mentioned interviews. This should be something that the interviewer is screaming from the rooftops, right? That this is our culture. We don't tolerate unkindness. And then the storytelling aspect of it is not just saying that we have a culture of kindness, but really shining examples of how that kindness has been manifested through different avenues, different channels.

• 17:02Matt Abrahams?

  That's really powerful. Were there other steps in that process?

• 17:05Speaker 01

  One other one, which is really actioning kindness. So again, from the top, how are you building kindness into your metrics? How are you making sure that kindness is protected? A positive kind culture should be protected at all costs. So how are you dealing with those unkind high performers, right? The way that companies deal with these types of individuals speaks volumes about what they prioritize. And unfortunately, as we see, too many organizations value one over the other.

• 17:37Matt Abrahams?

  That notion of protecting kindness is one that stands out to me. What are some ways you have seen or you advise that people protect kindness? I can imagine, I'm a big fan, and I learned this from my kids' kindergarten teachers, rewarding the positive. So one way to protect it is to really highlight and reward acts of kindness. But what are some ways to protect kindness?

• 17:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that's one. Rewarding kindness is probably the easy one, but you need consistency. And when you think about how kindness starts from the top and it really needs to be leader-led, how is your company thinking about, for example, succession planning? Are you targeting individuals that embody kindness and would bring that to life in the succession plan? Or are you really prioritizing individuals who are maybe high performers but unkind? That signals a lot to the organization.

• 18:27Matt Abrahams?

  I was very fortunate to interview world-famous women's basketball coach Tara Van Deavere. She's a emeritus at Stanford now. And she talked about one of the things that was really important to her in her teams was not the number of point scores or the number of wins won, but the kindness that the teammates had towards each other and towards their opponents and towards the referees. And taking that and showing it and really supporting and protecting it was really important to her, and I like that you're emphasizing that. We'll be right back to finish our conversation. But first, we're going to take a quick break for a word from our sponsors. Their support covers the cost of production, so we can bring you this show for free. This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace. The best communicators don't just get their message across, they make it easy for people

• 19:12Matt Abrahams?

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• 19:57Matt Abrahams?

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• 20:01Matt Abrahams?

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• 20:59Matt Abrahams?

  So before we end, I like to ask everybody three questions. One, I make up just for you. And two, I've been asking everybody for a long time. Are you up for that?

• 21:05Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 21:06Matt Abrahams?

  So you wrote this great book on kindness. What do you hope is the key takeaway people have from the book?

• 21:12Speaker 01

  I would say the key takeaway would be to inspire kindness, to inspire a movement around kindness, and to inspire communities where people prioritize kindness as the number one important thing. And on a day-to-day basis, that could be something also that people take away with them. It's when you wake up every day and you are dreading going to work. How can you make that experience a little bit more positive for your people? Kindness also reciprocates. It boomerangs back to you. And so when you are showing that kindness, it will come back to you as well.

• 21:46Matt Abrahams?

  I love this idea of a kindness boomerang. It comes right back to you. And again, emphasizing that kindness is a way of being. It's not just that your company sets up volunteer opportunities in the community, which is absolutely important, but it's the kindness that we show each other in the day-to-day interaction. So question number two. Who is a communicator that you admire and why?

• 22:06Speaker 01

  There's too many to name here, but I will say that some qualities of communicators that I admire is storytelling, someone who's able to really bring the picture to life, make something very vivid and convey a message through a story. I think it's so powerful. But that doesn't mean that we all have to be fantastic storytellers, but I think underlying storytelling is really this notion of authenticity. So authentic communicators, they don't have to be perfect storytellers, they don't have to be perfect in their speech, but someone who really speaks from the heart, I think that's quite transformative.

• 22:41Matt Abrahams?

  I'm not surprised that somebody who studies kindness would be talking about speaking from the heart, being authentic, being able to connect to people through story. Thank you. Final question, what are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?

• 22:54Speaker 01

  I would say curiosity, assuming positive intent, and trust.

• 23:00Matt Abrahams?

  Trust, assuming positive intent, and curiosity. Three really powerful ingredients. And I like this idea of assuming positive intent. A lot of us set up acrimony, challenge, conflict, because we assume the other person doesn't have that good intent. Well, I appreciate you sharing good intent with all of us and challenging us all to rise to the occasion of kindness and really helping us change the metrics for how we work. It's about return on kindness, not just return on investment. Bonnie, thank you so much for joining me here in Hong Kong and for sharing your wisdom.

• 23:35Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.

• 23:39Matt Abrahams?

  Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. To learn more about how to establish a productive work culture, please listen to episode 93 with Celine Tio and episode 132 with Amy Edmondson. This episode was produced by Catherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder. With special thanks to Podium Podcast Company, please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe and rate us. Also, follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter. Please consider our premium offering for extended Deep Thinks episodes, AMAs, Ask Matt Anything, and much more at fastersmarter.io/premium.

• 24:27Matt Abrahams?

  Before we wrap up, I just want to say thank you for listening. It really means a lot to hear how people all over the world are using these ideas in their own lives. It inspires me and the whole team that brings you this show. If you want more episodes and resources, feel free to follow, subscribe, and explore past conversations. We're grateful for your support of Think Fast, Talk Smart.