John Starks from undrafted to NBA legend on battling Michael Jordan, iconic dunk vs Chicago, Knicks playoff pain, 90s rivalries, Game 7 heartbreak, Jalen Brunson, SGA and why this Knicks team feels different

"If I could have played against Michael Jordan everyday, I would have because I am a competitor." John Starks With NBA playoffs heating up, the New York Knicks look to be a favorite in the East and the city of New York is buzzing with the same type of energy that rivaled that of the 90s teams. And who better to talk about this type of pressure than a man who lived and breathed it. Former NBA All-Star and legend John Starks joins The Pivot Podcast for a raw and inspiring conversation about perseverance, pressure, and proving doubters wrong. Starks opens up about his difficult upbringing and troubled youth, sharing the challenges that shaped the relentless mentality he carried throughout his basketball journey. From going undrafted to becoming one of the most electrifying players in the NBA, he reflects on the grit it took to earn his place in the league and etched in history books. The former New York Knicks fan favorite revisits the intensity of 1990s basketball, the culture surrounding the Knicks during their fierce rivalries, and the unforgettable moments that defined his career — including “The Dunk” over Chicago and the highs and heartbreaks of deep playoff battles. A fierce competitor, Starks talks about the 90s rivalries, facing Michael Jordan and the pure physicality of the sport that makes the game so different back then to now. He opens up about his infamous game seven collapse, the devastation he suffered after that loss and the hurt carried with him for letting his team and city down. Although a fan favorite with no blame cast on him, Starks tried to block it all out and shares what it took to get him out of the emotional rut to be himself again on the court. Despite never getting a chance to redeem himself at a championship title. Starks speaks candidly about overcoming criticism, handling pressure in New York, and what his journey represents for overlooked athletes chasing impossible dreams. Getting into the NBA today, Starks gives his perspective on some of the young stars dominating the court, why SGA is making waves and shares why he thinks this NY team is the one to beat, revealing a conversation he had with Jalen Brunson on Knicks culture. Throughout the conversation, the guys and Starks dive into legacy, resilience, mental toughness, and the impact he continues to have on generations of basketball fans and players who see his story as proof that determination can outwork talent when opportunity finally arrives. He opens up on his youth, how his poor choices off the court could have derailed his career and how his brother saved him by pushing him back on the path of basketball away from the streets. Pivot Family, comment, like, hit the subscribe button, we enjoy hearing and learning from you- the good and the bad, we want to know! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Every game day, you show up for your team. Now, it's your time.

• 0:11Speaker 00

  Ask your prescriber about Wegovy. Semaglutide injection, 2.4 mg/dLp1. Call 1-8334-WEGOVIE or visit wegovie.com to view the medication guide and to learn more about Wegovy. Why wait?

• 0:30Ryan Clark?

  John Starks has the ultimate rags-to-riches story. Starks went from an undrafted player to an All-Star. He won the sixth man of the year, and he became a core player in the '90s Knicks locker room. Now, you're probably wondering, "How do so many teams miss out on a baller like this?" And the answer is easy. It was Starks's fault. He was a late bloomer, and he ends up getting kicked off of his high school team. So, he only plays a year of high school ball. And then, he was sent home from two separate junior colleges for, let's just say, bad decision-making. What's great about Starks is he isn't embarrassed of his past. He recalls those moments that shaped him, the failures and the comeback. But, most importantly, the pivot that he and his brother shared that changed his life forever.

• 1:14Ryan Clark?

  Then, we fast-forward to the magic of Madison Square Garden, the 1990s Knicks runs, and Game 7 versus Houston. We also talk about the dunk and the headbutt. We get some insight into today's NBA, just about how much the game has changed and what he told Jalen Brunson two years ago about winning a championship. And, he lets us in on what can lead to this year's Knicks run to greatness. The Oklahoma native is now a true New Yorker, even though he was decked out in Pittsburgh Steelers gear. Starks epitomizes the pivot. He never got the biggest trophy on his grandma's mantle, but he knows that he made her proud. It is an absolute honor

• 1:58Ryan Clark?

  to welcome John Starks to the Pivot right now.

• 2:24Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, buddy. Hey, man, sometimes the free agents end up playing longer than the people that's drafted, guys. Sometimes it happens. And something about them where they just, that black and gold, man, just just running they system like John Starks, man, from Oklahoma. 13 years, an All-Star, Sixth Man of the Year. It clearly knows football.

• 2:50Channing Crowder?

  Man, you gave him that switch.

• 2:54Ryan Clark?

  John, man, welcome to the show, man. Excited to have you on the pivot.

• 2:57Speaker 03

  Great to be here.

• 2:57Ryan Clark?

  I'm gonna say this, you gave me, in my teenage years, you really caused a conundrum for me. I'm a huge Bulls fan, I just have to admit it. But you were one of my favorite players because of the way you played the game. How hard you played, the effort, the tenacity. Where did that come from in your journey where you realized the only way I'm gonna be anything that I want to be is to play this game a different way than the stars play?

• 3:28Speaker 03

  As you know, everything's come from your background. You know, the way I grew up, grew up in a sports family. Older brother played football, he's defensive back. His favorite player was, what's my man, Tatum? Yeah, Jack Tatum, so he played like him. And so, I used to always try to emulate him, in a sense. I played a little football, wide receiver. Till my mother cut all that out, out the little skinny kids. She like, "No, you may get hurt." Can't give out the birth certificate. But, yeah, no, we just come from a block where we just played and we competed hard. Couldn't go out there and cry, you know, I'm playing with the older guys. And so, you had to be tough. And so, that's where I think that mentality grew out of.

• 4:14Speaker 03

  He pushed me to that point from a physical standpoint. And he used to always tell me, he'd say, "Whenever you compete, you go hard. No matter if you playing against me, no matter who you playing against, you play hard." And so, I always took that mentality into what I did out there on the court.

• 4:31Channing Crowder?

  Were you a late bloomer? Because you ain't have the McDonald's All-American stuff. You never think, we watched you in the league, and then you look at your record and your background. How the hell is he starting for the Knicks?

• 4:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was a late bloomer. When I, I think my senior year in high school, I was like 5'10" when I started. Me and the coach got into some things my senior year and I ended up leaving the team. And over the course of the school year, I grew. I grew to the size I am now. And so, and, but that drive that I had to prove him wrong, that I was a better player than what he thought I was, is what really gave me that added, you know, advantage when I go out and play against guys. And so, yeah, I was, I was a late bloomer. Ended up going off to college, junior college, starting off. And that didn't work out because of my little troubled past. And I went to another junior college, that didn't work out because of my troubled past.

• 5:30Speaker 03

  You know, the story's been told that, you know, I was working that Safeway, which I did. And had to grow up, had to mature as a man, you know what I mean? And, you know, grew up without a father. And so, you, you on that path of trying to like find yourself. And so, it took me a while. It wasn't until I met my wife. And, you know, we went out for a year or so. Ended up getting married, ended up having my son. And that really like fast-tracked my maturity. Because I knew I had the mouths to feed and I had to provide for them. That really gave me that added, you know, drive inside of me to make it, yeah.

• 6:07Channing Crowder?

  So I gotta ask, were you a hothead? Because you, you brushed past my troubled past, my troubled past, my troubled... But then you, I read some stories, you know, you were, that was, it was...

• 6:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was. Like I say, I was trying to find myself. And, and being in the streets, you know, growing up and stuff, and I kind of went back to that. And, but I got to a point where, and I have to thank my older brother, you know, second oldest brother, Monty, told me, "Son, you got a talent." You know what I mean? So you need to get back in school. You need to leave this alone." Because I was in the game with him. And he said, "You need to leave this alone and get back in school." So he kind of pushed me back in school. And, and my mentality was that, okay, I got a second chance at this and I'm gonna make it work, yeah.

• 6:54Fred Taylor?

  I'm over here doing math in my head. Because every time I look at you, you got on the Steelers top. You remind me of this guy that came out of high school with me. Amazing player for the Steelers. If I didn't know no better, I would have thought you was hanging out in Pittsburgh back in the day. Because you and Heinz, boy. You and Heinz, y'all look very much identical. You're talking about the mentality in which you play ball.

• 7:18Speaker 03

  Very similar.

• 7:19Fred Taylor?

  He played the exact same intensity, you know, coming from the other side. And he did every single thing. Just to go back to what you mentioned about being at Safeway, stocking shelves. With that, how close were you two giving up basketball and stopped chasing that dream altogether?

• 7:36Speaker 03

  I wouldn't say I was giving up because I'm the type of person that I just kind of let things come to me. In a sense, and so I was always playing, you know, pickup basketball, playing in leagues and things of that nature. Right there, and I can remember stocking the groceries at nighttime. And I almost, it was the jack lift came down on my foot. And this older man, he told me, he said, "Son, this is not the life for you. You don't want this." You know, he said, "You need to get your butt back in school." And obviously with my older brother and all that stuff rang true. And so I think I was always a good listener. You know what I mean? I always listened to people older than me because they were much wiser than me.

• 8:20Speaker 03

  And so I really took that to heart, what he said. And end up enrolling back in school and becoming successful. Back to Heinz, man, he was my favorite. You know what I mean? He was my favorite. I identified, like you said, with that toughness. You know what I mean? I go all the way back to the old Steelers, Elsie Greenwood, Dwight Dwight. All those guys, Mean Joe Green, you know, Lance Swan, you know, Starworth. Bradshaw, I can go on and on. Franco, that's when I became a Pittsburgh Steeler fan at a young age. My brother, he loved the Oakland Raiders. And my other brother, I think he loved Dallas Cowboys. So they wouldn't let me root for either of those teams. Then I watched Pittsburgh kick the mess out of Dallas. I'm like, "Oh, well, that's my team."

• 9:07Fred Taylor?

  It's safe to say then that you saw me kind of cut through that thing like a hot morning light.

• 9:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, you did. You did your thing.

• 9:14Fred Taylor?

  You can chime in, huh?

• 9:15Speaker 03

  Yes, sir.

• 9:16Fred Taylor?

  We good.

• 9:17Speaker 03

  Coach Cowherd even admitted it when you saw Coach Cowherd.

• 9:20Fred Taylor?

  It was a blessing seeing Coach, man, and the words that we had. He was like, "Man, I've been waiting to talk to you." Just the conversation, man, but the... That team, it brings the best out you, much like the Bulls did with you.

• 9:33Speaker 03

  Oh, no question. You know, that was our rival, one of our rivals back then. We had so many of our rivals. Indiana, Miami, Charlotte. We had a bunch of them back then, but Chicago was just a different animal. You know, obviously with Mike, Scottie, Horace and all the crew that they had. And so they was the standard back during my time. And so we had to push ourselves to get to that level. And, you know, and I appreciated it because it made me a better player. I always liked playing against the best. Like I said, if I could play against Michael Jordan every day, I'd have loved it. You know what I mean? Because I'm a competitor and I like to compete against the best because that brings out the best in you. Some guys don't like it. You know what I mean? And I see it in today's game. You know what I mean?

• 10:17Speaker 03

  So if I can go out there and play against Shay every day, I would. You know what I mean? And that's just me because I like to compete.

• 10:25Ryan Clark?

  That was going to be my question to you. You mentioned today's game. And when you talk to players that played in the 90s in a slower, more physical game, it was more half court. They talk about the physicality as compared to now. Now you're starting to hear, you know, the Jalen Browns talk about people flopping and now the viewers are upset with Shay and they call him a foul baiter and all those different things. How do you feel the game has changed from when you played to now?

• 10:57Speaker 03

  He just playing by the rules. That's the rules of the game. He's just taking advantage of it. All these guys. And obviously the game has changed. You know, it was more of a half court, big man, post up game. Come down, throw it inside and as guards you wait, you know, for the ball to come back out, if it's going to come back out. Playing with Patrick Ewing, so.

• 11:18Speaker 03

  You gotta get the whole team around him to kick that ball back out. But yeah, it has changed a lot. Everything is.

• 11:26Speaker 03

  Focus on the offensive end of the court. You know, they want to see scoring. And, you know, all the rules are predicated towards the offense. You know, you never had where you can come in and dislodge guys. That's automatically offensive foul. You can't do that. Now they pushing off, jumping their shoulders into them and everything. So the rules has changed and these guys are taking advantage of it. It's simply as that. You know, the smart ones understand how to do it. It got so bad with the step back. I remember James Harden, he did a step back. It was like a seven step step back.

• 12:03Speaker 03

  Referees looking like, looking at each other, yeah, man, we gotta call that, man. That's trapping. We gotta call that. You know what I mean? So it's totally different. I enjoy watching the game. I enjoy the fast pace of the game. I always tell people I played in a league like this. Before I got to the Knicks was the World Basketball League. It was a league for 6'5" and unders. But we had guys in there 6'7", 6'8", 6'9" in there. It was just fast pace, just the way they play now. And now it was fun to play. You know what I mean? So I can understand the joy that these guys have. But basketball, from a park standpoint, is played like we played in the 90s. You know, you had to go in there and you had to be physical as guards. You know, when you came through that lane, you gonna get cracked.

• 12:48Speaker 03

  And the referees ain't gonna say nothing. You know what I mean? You know you gotta take your licks. And I can always remember Larry Bird always saying, this league separate the men from the boys. It's not that way no more. You know, you got teenagers in here now. You know, when I came in the league, the average age was probably about 26, 27. Now it's probably about 22, you know, at the most. And so it's a different league. The talent level is incredible. You know, you look at, you know, these young guys coming in here. It's just amazing because... I think the same thing in football, the training is starting at a younger age.

• 13:23Ryan Clark?

  Yup.

• 13:23Speaker 03

  You know, I didn't lift a weight until I think I got in college. You know what I mean? Football players, y'all obviously, y'all lift weights. But from a basketball standpoint, we didn't lift weights. You know, you just.

• 13:34Ryan Clark?

  You just hoop?

• 13:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, you just go out there and hoop. Now, they just at a young age, man. So they getting that training that they need. And so it's gonna be even better, I think. You know, you look at Wimby, you know, seven foot, what, seven six?

• 13:49Ryan Clark?

  Yup.

• 13:50Speaker 03

  Crazy.

• 13:50Ryan Clark?

  They dunk now, the game is so different. I want to ask you, in listening to you talk, you know, we had Patrick on the show recently. That's actually how I got in contact with you. And listening to you talk, man, like, it's like, this brother from the south. You know what I'm saying? It's more evident to me now than it was when I used to watch you on TV. I mean, you come to the Mecca.

• 14:13Speaker 03

  Yup.

• 14:13Ryan Clark?

  Right? Madison Square Garden, man, is a different deal. The other stars in the league talk about playing there, right? They want to put their best foot forward when they play there. For you, what was that adjustment like? Getting used to the bright lights in the big city, coming from where you came from, undrafted?

• 14:33Speaker 03

  I tell people, I play at Golden State first. And so I was kind of used to the city life. But the Garden is different, man. It's a different animal. The pressure that you have to play under there is just like no other city I've been in. I've been in Golden State, I've been in Utah, I've been in Chicago. Those three cities right there, there's nothing compared, not even LA compares to the pressure that you play under every single day. You know, you scrutinize. I can remember when I was playing here, you had about 20, 30 reporters in the locker room. When I went to Golden State, you had about three, four. You know what I mean? So, and they all friendly. You know what I mean? Oh, everything's nice.

• 15:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, you did that, okay, I do. You know, so everything's friendly. New York? Nah, you got to be built for this. You know, mentality wise, you got to be built for it. And you got to be a little bit insane in a sense. And so, but it fits my personality, New York do. And so, I just relish in that, in that moment, just playing in that building every single night. When you come out through that tunnel, because you know, every time we stepped out there on the court, you gonna get the opponent's best game. No matter who it is, they could be one in 18. When they step in the garden, they gonna, they gonna bring it. And you know they gonna bring it, so you have to be ready for that.

• 15:55Channing Crowder?

  Talking about that competitiveness, you brought up the Heat, I remember them fights.

• 15:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:59Channing Crowder?

  Reggie Miller with them boys. Did y'all, did, cause nowadays, players do jersey exchange and DM each other and all. Did y'all really dislike each other? Like, what, did y'all, you didn't, you, you didn't like Reggie?

• 16:12Speaker 03

  No, he didn't like me, I didn't like him. I didn't like Indiana, they didn't like us. And just, you know, I, I think it comes back from AAU.

• 16:20Channing Crowder?

  Yeah.

• 16:21Speaker 03

  All these guys play together. They play against one another all the time growing up. So they develop a friendship. When I came up, AAU wasn't like it is now. And so, I didn't know nobody when I stepped into this league. You know, outside, a couple of my guys that went to the league, like Anthony Bowie, Wayman Tisdale, guys like that who I grew up with. But other than that, I didn't know anybody. And so, and back then, you had to gain respect. Guys wasn't giving it to you, you know what I mean? Because that's jobs back then, the money wasn't that great. First start, now, I can remember, I made a hundred thousand dollars my first year. And I thought it was like, man, gold, you know, to be coming from where I came from. Yeah, I'm rich now.

• 17:03Speaker 03

  And so, living in LA and I start seeing chop, chop, chop taxes, living expense, this and that, I'm like, ten thousand dollars, this is what we going home with, baby.

• 17:16Speaker 03

  So it was, it was totally different back then, but you had to earn your respect. These guys wasn't giving it up. The same thing in football, you know, you had to earn your respect because when you step out on that court, you know that in order for you to stay in this league, they gonna test your manhood back then. They gonna test your manhood, see if you really belong here, see if you really want this, this smoke. And, and so Reggie was the same way, you know what I mean? He had to go through it. So he basically was trying to like come at me like that, you know what I mean? And, uh, but I had to straighten all that out.

• 17:51Ryan Clark?

  When you head butted him, John, like, like that, if you did that today.

• 17:58Speaker 03

  Yeah. Oh, you gone.

• 17:59Ryan Clark?

  They'd put you in jail. You'd be in NBA jail if you head butted one of the stars of the league. When you in that moment with Reggie.

• 18:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's a playoff game.

• 18:09Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, it's a playoff game. You get ejected. When you're in that moment, what's going on between you two where you say, okay, this enough?

• 18:16Speaker 03

  Bro, you know, everybody play ball in the park and once these come up and hit you, there's a warning. And the next time he hit you, they just like, okay. Bro, I went to the referee. I told the referee. I said, hey, he hit me with both. And they say, shut up and play, John. And I like, oh, okay. I can handle this.

• 18:40Speaker 03

  I got that ball, went down and scored on him. He was running back up court, man. I got close, man. Bro, everything inside of me said, please don't hit this man. Everything inside of me, I know it's a playoff game, don't hit this man. And he just got close to me and everything just came up. I'm bow.

• 18:57Speaker 03

  You know what I mean? I'm like, then after that, I never had no more problems with Reggie for the rest of my career. He stopped all the shenanigans, you know what I mean? We never had no more problems. But that's what you had to do back in the day. You had to like get your respect somehow. You know, either you gonna get it with your game or you gonna let them know I ain't playing.

• 19:15Ryan Clark?

  I had butted do that.

• 19:18Fred Taylor?

  That's running from my troubled past. That's what I was turning my around. That don't show up on the, um, on the study and the research. They just seeing jumpers. But talking about mentality and having to earn your keep. But as a, you know, undrafted player, you know, you got the stars of the league. They gonna try you even more.

• 19:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:36Fred Taylor?

  And if you and RC both can speak to the mentality of, of an undrafted player. Cause RC was undrafted.

• 19:43Speaker 03

  Yes. But, bro, you come in there, you hungry. You know what I mean? And, and the most important thing is that you got to believe in yourself. You gotta believe you belong. And these was pros, you know what I mean? Leave them. Play for Houston, I think I'm pronouncing it right. And, uh, Moses Malone, all these guys, man. I'm playing against them and these, these, uh, what we call the pig pop off. Where these teams come in from Dallas, Houston, come in there and play in there. And I was always on the All-Star team. And so, uh, against, you know, pros. And so, my brother said, you don't even know what you doing. He told me, he said, you don't even know what you doing. Cause I'm just like, you know, this basketball to me. You know, it's competition out here. I'm just going out and playing.

• 20:26Speaker 03

  And I'm always on these, these All-Star teams, you know, year after year. And he said, man, he said, that's when I think he knew that I could make it. I wouldn't even, you know, I was just playing. And, uh, that's when he really like kind of start pushing me that way. And then I had to sit back and think, yeah, you right. You right. And so, it, when I got to the league, I'm, I, I think I was, from a mental standpoint, I'm already prepared for it mentally. You know what I mean? I used to study Michael all the time when I was in college. Come home after a game, have my wife tape the game. I come home and just watch and watch and study and study. And I got that from my older brother. He played football. That's all y'all did was watch tape. And he just had me down.

• 21:09Speaker 03

  He used to come in and when he was in high school and come back and 11 o'clock at nighttime, he's in there watching tape and had me sitting up there watching tape with him. You know what I mean? And so, in my mind, I said, okay, this what I got to do in order to get better. And so, I used to study, study, study, study, study. And I think once I got there, I wasn't afraid to go out there and compete. That's the most important thing. I see guys now when they come in there, like you say, undrafted and what's the name? They don't go out there and, and play, play their game. I said, no, I'm gonna come out. I remember when I was with Golden State and, uh, It used to be garbage time. It'd be two minutes in a game. I end up with 10 points.

• 21:49Ryan Clark?

  Shooting it.

• 21:50Speaker 03

  Shooting it.

• 21:52Speaker 03

  You know what I mean? Because I wasn't getting playing time. So when he put me in, you know, it would blow out either way. He called him to 10. I remember Rod Higgins come in. He said, "Man," he said, "God damn." He said, "I play all these minutes. You got more points than me in two minutes."

• 22:06Ryan Clark?

  Yeah.

• 22:06Speaker 03

  I was like, "Dude." My mentality was to go out there and be aggressive all the time. And speak to this man right here. You watch him play. Hit it. You know what I mean? Mentality. You know, if you don't have that mentality, bro, you ain't gonna be at the next level, period. And you got to have that mentality.

• 22:23Ryan Clark?

  Speaking of that mentality, when we talked to Patrick, I talked to him about game seven.

• 22:29Ryan Clark?

  And he said, because I said, you know, as a leader, how do you talk to your teammate when you know they had a night like that? And he said, "I wouldn't want John on my team if he would have stopped shooting." He said, "I don't want a man on my team that doesn't think the next one is going in." What did it take for you, though, to sort of process that moment of going 2-for-18 in game seven against Houston?

• 23:00Speaker 03

  That was tough. That was a tough summer. I felt like I let my teammates down. I let the city down. I let the organization down. It was just a tough moment for me as a player. And I had to do a lot of soul searching that summer. And that's when I actually picked up the game of golf. You know what I mean? Just to kind of get away from everything. And went back and worked because I was coming off a meniscus turn before that playoffs started. And so I had to go back and get myself prepared mentally and physically to come out and have a good season the next season. But I had a lot of people talking to me. But during the course of the summer, I think the major mistake that I made,

• 23:44Speaker 03

  I didn't go back and watch that film. I'm running from it. You know what I mean? I'm running from it. And going into that season, I started off up and down, up and down, up and down. I hit a rough spot. I'm like, "Man, what's wrong with you? You're a better player than what you showing out here." And I like, I sat down with myself and I said, "Man, watch this tape." And I sit in there, cut the lights off, turn the tape on and just watch the whole thing from start to finish. And because I had to like come to realization with it. You know what I mean? I was running from it and I know better than that. I never ran for anything in my life, but I was running from that moment.

• 24:27Speaker 03

  And I had to come to a realization that, okay, son, you're a lot better player than that. And you have to show that, that it coming up. And after that, seemed like a load just came off of me. And I started playing a hundred percent better, you know? So I tell people all the time, you know, you don't run from your troubles. You face them and you, and you go through them and you, and you gonna get through them. And I had to face that. And it's probably the biggest life lesson that I could ever, ever receive back then. And plus, I was thinking about, you know, some great players didn't have some bad game sevens. You know, I think of Magic Johnson, you know what I mean? That was on my mind and, and how he was able to bounce back. I thought I would get back and get a chance to redeem myself.

• 25:12Speaker 03

  And 99, when Michael retired, I was like, oh shit.

• 25:17Speaker 03

  We going back to the finals.

• 25:21Speaker 03

  John, you out of here.

• 25:24Speaker 03

  I'm like, boy, I was like hot. I was hot in seeing them in the finals. But I was happy for a big fella because he got, got a chance to obviously get that ring. But I wanted to be there with him, yeah.

• 25:35Channing Crowder?

  And some people watch film and you say, study.

• 25:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 25:40Channing Crowder?

  Some people watch the game, some people study the game. When you watched that game seven, what, what did you learn from your study of the game over just watching a couple of shots, you know, watching Mr. Shot?

• 25:50Speaker 03

  The mentality going into that game.

• 25:54Speaker 03

  Before the game, I mean, literally, I didn't sleep 24 hours a month because I'm so amped. You know, getting ready to, preparing myself mentally and couldn't get to sleep. I mean, every time I close my eyes, it feels like my eyeballs is open, this open wide open. I'm like, dude, what's wrong with you? And I didn't get no sleep. And so I think I was. Running the race, I was at the finish line, I didn't run the race. You know what I'm saying? In my mind, I'm thinking, you know, we gonna celebrate here, we gonna do this, blah blah blah. You know, and so I already ran the race in my mind, but I didn't run the race. And so it was just a mentality going into that, into that game that I know is like, when I watched it, I'm like, dude, really?

• 26:39Speaker 03

  This you? This is you? Nah, that's not you. That's not you. Mentally, that's not you. You know, and I remember, you know, the following year when we go back to Houston, boy,

• 26:52Speaker 03

  I was like, dude, I came out, I wanted to punish them. I wanted to punish them. I gotta get there, bro. Yeah, I got, because I had to exorcise that demon inside of me. I had to get back to that court and exorcise that demon. And they showed the dunk where I dunked on Olajuwon at the end, end of the game. Obviously, we ended up winning. And I remember Pat coming to me and saying, Olajuwon said, okay.

• 27:19Speaker 03

  Well, I was hot, bro. I was hot. We that close getting the championship.

• 27:22Ryan Clark?

  The hard part about that is like, you can't get that lick back.

• 27:26Speaker 03

  No.

• 27:27Ryan Clark?

  You know what I mean? Like, I remember playing, wanting to play Green Bay after Aaron Rodgers and they beat us in the Super Bowl. And, and you get to play it and it's just not the same.

• 27:36Speaker 03

  Same, it's not.

• 27:36Ryan Clark?

  You know, I mean, like you, you.

• 27:37Speaker 03

  You feel, you feel good, but it's not the same.

• 27:40Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, you know, and I, I just remember, we talk about it all the time, like that championship loss.

• 27:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:45Ryan Clark?

  Is, is just so different, but to, to come back from that and to fight back from that is all good. But I just want to ask you, what made you go with the left hand over Horace Grant and Michael Jordan? Because you was on the other side of the goal.

• 28:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:01Ryan Clark?

  You know, like, that's the, to me, that's the poster, that's the play that people remember. Was it 93?

• 28:09Speaker 03

  93, yeah.

• 28:09Ryan Clark?

  In 93 Eastern Conference Finals.

• 28:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, made 25.

• 28:13Ryan Clark?

  What was, for, for you, that moment, did it feel like, hey, look, I'm John Starks. I've arrived, it doesn't matter who's on the other side playing against me.

• 28:23Speaker 03

  Pat Riley used to always tell, tell us that you study the game while you playing it. You know what I mean? And so. You gonna see things in the games that you could use at the end of the game. And you know what I mean? And BJ Armstrong, he was guarding me most of the night, always like when Patrick used to come over and set the pick. As soon as I cut my eyes, he would jump to my high side to push me baseline so they could trap me. Bill Cartwright or whoever down there. And when I was coming down, I was slow dragging him down the court. Then when I got in position, I seen Bill Cartwright still high. BJ had his back to him. He wasn't in position and my eyes lit up, dude, I was like, okay. Turned and cut my eyes and he jumped high side?

• 29:05Speaker 03

  Oh, when I took off, I think it was like one dribble, two dribbles. All I saw was Horace Grant. I was like, dude, you gotta go in strong. And I mean, I just, the energy in that Garden at that time, because it was at the waning moments of the game.

• 29:19Channing Crowder?

  Yeah.

• 29:20Speaker 03

  And the energy that was flowing through me propelled me to jump higher than I ever jumped. And when I went up, most right-handers like going this way. But because my leg is, one leg is longer than the other, I jumped better going that way. So it was like, it was a perfect, perfect setup for me. And when I jumped and I went up and I seen Horace, I was like, oh, you done. Because I got, I got up on him so quick. He didn't know what hit him because he like hesitated to come over. I got up on him so quick, he didn't know what hit him. And I dunked because I spent out because I'm getting back on defense because Chicago like pushing the ball after you celebrating. Go get an easy layup. They called timeout. Teammates, you know, hit me and stuff, we going to the huddle.

• 30:04Speaker 03

  I like to the huddle, sitting down, I'm trying to look up, catch the highlights, couldn't catch the highlights. And it wasn't until the next day, I always say this, it wasn't until the next day when I saw who was on the back end of that picture. I was like, got you.

• 30:20Channing Crowder?

  Got him.

• 30:21Speaker 03

  I always explain it like this, and I always explain, I dunked on Horace Grant, but Mike got in the picture, made it look good. So he tried to go over it, but he got a little bit of it.

• 30:31Fred Taylor?

  Yeah.

• 30:31Speaker 03

  He got a little bit of it.

• 30:32Fred Taylor?

  So even with the magnitude of the moment.

• 30:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:35Fred Taylor?

  The finals, the Bulls in New York, you didn't realize how much of an iconic

• 30:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:42Fred Taylor?

  moment that would actually turn out to be.

• 30:45Speaker 03

  I didn't, I didn't, you know, I said, if this happened against any other team, any other players besides those two, it would have been just another play. And that's how I looked at it when I dunked it. I had dunked on a lot of guys, you know what I mean? And so all I was thinking about is winning the ballgame. It wasn't until I was sitting down, like I said, sitting down the next day with me and Herb eating breakfast, Herb Williams, and I looked at the paper and I'm like, wow, that's a special moment. But I wasn't even thinking about the moment. I was like, gee, we got two more games we trying to win. You know what I mean? That's all I was thinking about. It wasn't until 2002, when, 2004, when I came working for the Garden, back to the Garden. Every single day since that day, I can honestly say, somebody asked me about that play.

• 31:30Ryan Clark?

  Really?

• 31:31Speaker 03

  That's since, what's that? 22 years?

• 31:34Ryan Clark?

  22 years.

• 31:35Speaker 03

  Every single day, I don't know, no matter where I'm at, I could be on vacation in an island somewhere, somebody asked me about that play. And that's when I knew that it became that iconic moment. But it, kind of like what you said earlier, it showed the world that John Starks is here. You know what I mean? And only in New York that can happen.

• 31:57Fred Taylor?

  Hey, fellas, pivotal moment. I want to ask you guys, when was the last time you had to make your move in a high-energy, under-pressure situation where you had to stay composed?

• 32:05Ryan Clark?

  I think back to football and playing safety and being in those moments where you knew it was the two-minute drill and the offense is getting to the line of scrimmage quickly. And like, what I would love is just that I had to take everything from around me and just focus on the other 21 people on the field. It didn't matter about the noise, it didn't matter that momentum was on their side, the scoreboard, didn't matter. It was all about staying calm in the moment and making sure all the players around us and around me and in my logo and in my colors stayed composed. The way it works is for us. Composure is everything.

• 32:41Channing Crowder?

  I would say in football, it's that composure, it's that stamina, but it's just the high level, no ups and downs, no crash outs. No one quarter and a half, two quarters, you gotta keep that level set. I think that's all the great players I played with, that they would be, where they started, they ended. They didn't have no ups and downs.

• 33:02Fred Taylor?

  Yeah, I echo what y'all say, man. It's about the standard, it's about performance. And in those situations, you'll feel some pressure, but being there, having done it before, staying smooth, and for me, as a running back, we see the big runs and all the touchdowns and stuff, but you don't see the preparation that goes into it. Like, over and over again, the more you rep it, you develop this sense of poise. And eventually, as long as you stay smooth and trusted, big things will happen. And for me, I think that also applies to life, and it applies to the pivot. Make your move.

• 33:32Channing Crowder?

  Pivotenergydrink.com.

• 33:35Fred Taylor?

  No crash, no sugar. 12 functional ingredients. Pivot. The 90's Knicks were spectacular. You guys are amazing. When you look at today's Knicks, are there any similarities that you can draw to that remind them of you guys?

• 33:50Speaker 03

  From a defensive standpoint, they are outstanding defensive team. Special in that way. I think you have to give a lot of credit to Coach Tibbs, because he put that DNA inside of them. So I give them a lot of credit for that, and you see it coming out now. They were struggling early on, trying to find their identity. You're gonna be an offensive team, you're gonna be a defensive team. And now, those two teams, those two sides of the ball matches up. And that's why they playing the way they playing right now. Yeah, I see that on the defensive end. Those guys get after you. You know, they got that mentality that they understand that in order for us to win it all, we got to hold teams to under 100. And they've been doing that. They've been special in that way. And so I'm excited about this year.

• 34:34Channing Crowder?

  You've talked about a couple of coaches, and you referenced Pat Riley twice already.

• 34:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:39Channing Crowder?

  We talked to Big Pat about, talked to Big Ewing about Pat Riley saying that they had to have some, you know, like a sit-down after he left y'all.

• 34:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:46Channing Crowder?

  Was there any hard feelings and where do you sit with Pat Riley now?

• 34:49Speaker 03

  Oh, man, being a coach is cool. No, I respect everything. He taught me a lot as a coach, you know what I mean? We all had special coaches in our lives and from a mentor's standpoint, taught me how to be a professional, taught me how to, you know, prepare myself, you know, night in and night out. I got, his excellence old games is like incredible. His, I remember when he first came to the Knicks, you know, you know when a president walks into the room? You know that, you know what I mean? And he came with a lot of cachet coming from the Lakers and the championships and what have you, and we was trying to aspire to get to that level. And you see the whole organization change.

• 35:31Speaker 03

  He changed everything for us, how we traveled, how, where we stayed at, how we ate, every single thing, the locker room, the facilities, where we work at, everything changed. And as players, you respect that, you know what I mean? Because you know this man is 100% bought in to what we're trying to get accomplished. And I didn't have coaches, I ain't gonna name the coach, but I didn't have a coach, you know, practice at 10 o'clock, he walk in, hang his jacket on the, on the guardrail, do an hour of practice and while, pick his jacket and while Riley wasn't there. Riley six hours, six to seven or however long it takes.

• 36:16Speaker 03

  And you respect that as a player. So when he asks you to do something, you more than willing to do something and go through this brick wall right here for him, you know? His style of coaching can wear on you and so you know that eventually it's gonna wear out, just like when he was with the Lakers. Same thing, he come to a point where everything just got to end. And, you know, some guys probably was upset. I wasn't upset because I know, I knew it was like, it's that time. Plus it's $40 million reason why he left. And I remember a reporter come up to me and said, are you upset he left? I said, let me ask you a question. I said, you work for this newspaper. I said, if this newspaper came and offered you 40 million dollars, what you gonna do?

• 37:00Ryan Clark?

  Go work for the other newspaper.

• 37:01Speaker 03

  You gonna work for the other newspaper. So, and then this business, this is a business about making money too at that. So, but me personally, I knew it was that time. And he knew it was that time. And so, because he got every little last ounce out of us. And he knew, okay, it's time for me to go. Yeah.

• 37:21Ryan Clark?

  You know, there was a picture posted from Madison Square Garden the other day. And it was Bernard King, and it was Walt, and it was Patrick, you know, you like. It feels like that's a family.

• 37:34Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 37:34Ryan Clark?

  Right? That if you sold into the Knicks organization in some way, they embrace you. But then there's Spike, and now there's Timothy Chalamet. And it's all of these other new stars. Has this addition of the New York Knicks brought the excitement back?

• 37:52Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 37:52Ryan Clark?

  To New York and Madison Square Garden?

• 37:54Speaker 03

  Most definitely, man. These guys are amazing. Just to have the alumni there, to have the stars there. One thing about our stars, they come out to watch the game. They not in there for a fashion show or anything. They come to really get into the game of basketball. Look at Chalamet, he missed the, what was it, the Met?

• 38:14Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, Met.

• 38:15Speaker 03

  You know what I mean? Come watch the game. And you appreciate that as a former player. And I'm pretty sure the players appreciate that, seeing stars like that during the game. And so, yeah, these guys has brought that excitement back. One thing about the Garden, the energy. If you ever been in there for a playoff game, from start to finish, the crowd is like buzzing. It's like you hear the chant, "Defense before the ball even go up in the air."

• 38:45Speaker 03

  Defense and that brings back all the juices inside of you, man. You're just like, man, this is what I miss. You know what I mean? And I can remember Mikal Bridges. You know, we made a defensive play the other night. Stopped the ball down here and he got a dunk. The whole Garden rise like it was like a game winning shot.

• 39:03Ryan Clark?

  Yeah.

• 39:04Speaker 03

  It's like you don't get that in no other, no other city, no other arena. You get that. And I think it's so special. I know everybody's talking about, oh, man, Knicks fans are crazy. They delusional, they out there partying. I love it. I love it. I love them out there after a game because these guys got to feel their energy. How much this game means to them. And this what takes you to a whole nother level. And so I, I love everything about what the fans are doing.

• 39:32Ryan Clark?

  Can, can Jalen Brunson with the way he's playing, lead the Knicks to an NBA championship?

• 39:40Speaker 03

  I think he can. I truly believe that. I told him that. You know, we, we were at an event. I, I said it the other day. And he asked me, he said, you think we can win a championship? No, I came up to him. I said, y'all gonna win it. He said, you, you think so? I said, yeah. And this is like two years ago. That's what I felt two years ago. And so this is a championship quality team. We, unfortunately, we got an injury in OG right now. Hopefully that's not too seriously. But I watched them play against the San Antonio Spurs, man, and they demolished them. That right there told me, I like, they could beat anybody. They could beat anybody. They blew them out. They couldn't get a shot up, seems like. Cause it seemed like it was like eight guys on the court. You know what I mean?

• 40:26Speaker 03

  And so that, when they clicking like that, it, it kind of remind me of, and I, I stated this, is like when Gruden came to Tampa Bay. Tony Dungy put that DNA on the defense. Gruden brought a little offense.

• 40:40Ryan Clark?

  Yeah.

• 40:41Speaker 03

  Ended up winning.

• 40:41Ryan Clark?

  Mike Brown.

• 40:42Speaker 03

  Mike Brown. Yeah, that's what that remind me of.

• 40:45Ryan Clark?

  That make a lot of sense.

• 40:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 40:46Fred Taylor?

  I didn't want to know why y'all was too scared of Big Pat to say something about them knee, knee pads.

• 40:52Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 40:53Channing Crowder?

  Y'all had Pat looking bad out there, John.

• 40:55Speaker 03

  He had himself looking bad. He's grown.

• 40:57Channing Crowder?

  He a grown man.

• 40:58Ryan Clark?

  We, hey, we, we asking about that on the show though. And he was like, man, even if I played today, I was gonna wear these. Y'all knew them things was terrible, man.

• 41:07Speaker 03

  Y'all, you come walkin' to me like Pat. We needed that man to protect them knees. Period. I don't care if he had to put pillows around him. He needed to protect those knees, man. Period. Period. Period.

• 41:19Fred Taylor?

  It's perfect to have you on here, because it seems your entire story feels like the perfect pivot. Right? I mean, from undrafted, overlooked, possibly doubted at some point, to becoming a Knicks star, or a Knicks legend, I would say that. What did you learn most about your journey, about becoming John Starks?

• 41:40Speaker 03

  Be yourself. Be yourself. Don't change for nobody. You know what I mean? God made me who I am, and me trying to pretend that I'm somebody else, and I wasn't being authentic to who I am, I think that's what got me through life. You know what I mean? Coming, growing up, even when I got to this level right here, that's what got me through life. And so, people always say, "You still got that country accent. You know, you been living in New York?" And my boy was telling me the other day, "He more country than me." He said, "You still haven't changed." I'm like, "Dude, I'm not changing. I am who I am." You know what I mean? At the end of the day, so I had to be real to me, and got to be original. And so, I think that's what helps me live in the big city.

• 42:25Speaker 03

  You know what I mean? I'm not trying to adapt to them. You have to adapt to me.

• 42:29Ryan Clark?

  Right. John, in those moments, you mentioned that landed you working at Safeway. Just some of the things you experienced based on your decision-making. What did that teach you, and what did you take from those moments that helped you succeed later in life?

• 42:45Speaker 03

  Well, everything comes down to decisions, you know, in life. You know, I was at a crossroad in my life, and I could either went left, I could even went right. And praying helped me a lot. You know what I mean? God knew I wasn't a bad person. I was just making, you know, bad choices in life. You know, and so, he gave me a mindset to, at that particular time, when I was at that crossroad, to make the right decision. You know, because I could have easily kept going right and ended up... You know, like my brother, you know what I mean? Thank God he's able to get through it, come out and being successful in what he's doing. And my younger brother too, you know?

• 43:24Speaker 03

  I think it gives, gave me the, the understanding that no matter, you know, what you've been through in life, if you make the right decisions, you can, you know, overcome anything. And, and that was my mentality. My mother gave us that too. You know, she never let us felt sorry for, you know, our situation. She, her favorite saying is move on. And that was my mentality, just move on. Things come up, maybe bad or good, you know, just move on. And, and I always took that to heart. But, you know? And when I talk to young people, I tell them that, I was like, you, you had a young stage in your life. You think the world is, is, is, is over with right now for you, it's not. You know, you had the first quarter of your life.

• 44:08Speaker 03

  You know, things is gonna get better as you get older. And, but you have to, you know, make the right decisions in, in life. And so, you know, I, I just draw on my past, you know what I mean? And, and all the things that I went through and my family went through. And we all been through it, you know what I mean? And I think that's what makes you who you are.

• 44:26Ryan Clark?

  Did you feel like you made your grandmother and your mom proud?

• 44:29Speaker 03

  Oh, no question. No question, man. My grandmother, oh. She...

• 44:36Speaker 03

  She used to, whenever we played sports, she had this medal, right? And so, all my uncles, my brothers, they used to put trophies up there. And we used to always say, who gonna get the biggest trophy? And so I always aspired to put a trophy up on her medal. You know what I mean? And I can remember during, uh, basketball season when I was in sixth grade, I tell this story all the time. And, uh, I had a great season. And so we go to the award ceremony and everybody congratulate me. You know, you, you got the MVP, this and that. And I seen that big trophy. My eyes lit up, oh, my shit gonna be bigger than anybody. On the medal, right?

• 45:21Speaker 03

  And so, I'm just like waiting, my grandmother's there. Waiting for my name to be called. And he called somebody else's name. And I was like the second leading scorer on the team behind our other little point guard who was very good. But he couldn't get it because he got it in football. So it was like this, this, uh, um, uh, park we was playing at, so he couldn't get it. So I'm second in line. So I'm like waiting. I'm getting to get out of my seat.

• 45:52Speaker 03

  I'm like, oh.

• 45:56Speaker 03

  My grandmother caught me. I did everything inside of me not to cry in that room.

• 46:04Speaker 03

  Everything inside of me not to cry. And that hurt. That really hurt. And I walked outside, I cried outside, I come back in. My man, he got the trophy smiling, uh, averaged three points.

• 46:23Speaker 03

  And I know the reason why he got it. You know what I mean? And, um, that hurt, that hurt. So, but it taught me a lesson though. It really did. It taught me a lesson. From that point on, I didn't play for a trophy, I played to win the game. And everything else comes with that. And so I learned from it. I learned from it. And, uh, to this day, you know, it's, it still sits bad with me, man, that shit.

• 46:55Speaker 03

  I wanted that trophy, I'd bring it home, sit on my grandmother and brag to my brothers. I got the biggest trophy, this or that, I was like, oh. That crushed me, that crushed me, that crushed me.

• 47:07Ryan Clark?

  Nah, man, that, that is such a wonderful story. When you, and I know we gotta go. We all leave a legacy.

• 47:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:16Ryan Clark?

  You know, and while you're in it and you're on the journey, you're so focused on the present. And right now, you don't get to see the forest for the trees, right? You're just too caught up in it. When you sit back and look at what you were able to accomplish, especially after the things you had gone through. What do you want people to say about John Starks when they look back at who you were?

• 47:43Speaker 03

  I was a warrior. Didn't give up. I could have easily given up.

• 47:50Speaker 03

  I think a lot of people give up on their life dreams.

• 47:56Speaker 03

  But.

• 47:58Speaker 03

  I think for me, my attitude was, and my mother.

• 48:07Speaker 03

  I gotta have my interiors up here.

• 48:11Speaker 03

  My mother put that inside all of us, inside her kids, is to never give up and never stop fighting for what you want. And, you know, she would give the shirt off her back to anybody. You know, she was just that kind of woman. And we're the same way throughout my whole family, is that we understand the struggles and the pains that people go through. And what I do, especially with my foundation, is to try to give those kids an opportunity to realize their dreams. Because my dreams could have easily been crushed. And I know what kids go through today. I see it every single day.

• 48:57Speaker 03

  And the struggles that they're dealing with, especially now with the social media and all the stuff that they have to deal with mentally. You know what I mean? Back then, it's like, yes, grow up. That was the thing back then when we grew up. You know what I mean? Grow up, you know? But now, they're dealing with so much. And so, my legacy, I want them to understand that John Starks was there for you and gave you an opportunity, you know? And so, that's the most important thing for me. I'm just trying to follow in my family footsteps. You know, what my uncles did, what my grandmother did, what my mother did, you know what I mean? And so, I'm just trying to leave that part of legacy for, not only for me, but for my kids too.

• 49:40Fred Taylor?

  Legend.

• 49:41Speaker 03

  Yes, sir.

• 49:41Fred Taylor?

  We always ask all of our guests, what's their biggest pivot in life? That's that one moment you can look back on and say, because this happened to me and for me, I am who I am today.

• 49:51Speaker 03

  I would have to go back to the house that me and my brother were staying in and...

• 50:02Speaker 03

  I talked about it earlier, but that decision I had to make. Either stay in the game or get out the game. And I made the right decision. Because if I didn't make that that decision right there, I wouldn't be here today. And I think, thank God for giving me the mindset to make the right decision. And I remember clearly me staying, standing in that room with him and I, gun, bag. You know. That was it. That was it. I'm gone, you know. He didn't stop me. He knew. You know what I mean? So.

• 50:41Speaker 03

  Yeah. I'd say that. Yeah.

• 50:44Ryan Clark?

  Just like that?

• 50:45Speaker 03

  Just like that, man. Yeah.

• 50:49Speaker 03

  That decision, that decision, man. It's like, everybody's gonna be faced with that that decision that, you know, especially if you're doing bad, that you're gonna have to make a decision that is gonna affect your life. And I was very fortunate enough that, you know, with his help, you know what I mean, making the right decision. Yeah.

• 51:10Ryan Clark?

  You know, we talk about that on this show a lot, but just in our community, in our families, that there are a lot of people making decisions in our environment that feel like a necessity. Right? They feel like that's the only way to make it. That's the only way I can feed myself, feed my family. But they're also not bad people.

• 51:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:31Ryan Clark?

  Right? And your brother saw something in you that he was like, I have to do this, but you don't.

• 51:37Speaker 03

  There you go.

• 51:38Ryan Clark?

  And to, for him to be unselfish, man, step outside of himself so his brother could become the John Starks we all know, man. And we got an opportunity to watch play and to cheer for and to learn from. I mean, I'm grateful that you got that moment and are here to tell that story because it could have ended up. In a very different place, man. Legend, bro, we appreciate you, man.

• 52:01Speaker 03

  Appreciate it, man.

• 52:03Ryan Clark?

  I ain't even know you were still a fan. Now I'm even more fired up that we did the show. You know I wore this for you, man. I ain't even know, dawg. You pouring gas on me. I was just fired up. I just knew you was undrafted and you played a little time. I was just fired up about that. Man, that was awesome, man. Appreciate you, brother. Appreciate you, dawg.

• 52:22Speaker 05

  It was awesome, big dog.

• 52:49Speaker 00

  Every game day, you show up for your team. Now, it's your time.

• 52:54Speaker 06

  We go V.

• 52:57Speaker 00

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