162. “If Mayors Ruled the World”

Unlike certain elected officials in Washington, mayors all over the country actually get stuff done. So maybe we should ask them to do more?

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Progressive. Whoever says saving money is hard doesn't know that new customers who bundle and save with Progressive save hundreds because switching your home and auto insurance is better than cutting down on the things you love, like those iced lattes that help you get ready to face the day. So switch your home and auto to Progressive and see if you could save and keep sipping away. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers. Not available in all states. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by hotels.com. Hotels.com helps you find and book the right stay for work faster. With business preferences, save your travel must haves like gym access

• 0:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  or breakfast just once, then get tailored results whenever you search for work travel. Plus, with a free membership, you can save up to 20% on hotels and earn rewards on every stay for future travel. Book now at hotels.com. Visit hotels.com for details. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Mint Mobile. With Mint Mobile's summer sale, all of Mint's plans are $15 per month, even unlimited. Free yourself from big wireless and switch to Mint for high-speed data and coverage on the T-Mobile 5G network. To get your new wireless plan for just $15 a month, go to mintmobile.com/freak. That's mintmobile.com/freak.

• 1:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  Upfront payment $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for 12 months. Plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only. Greater than 50GB may slow when network is busy. Includes up to 20GB hotspot. Capable device required. Availability, speed, and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com.

• 1:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by ChatGPT. ChatGPT Work is a new way to work in ChatGPT. ChatGPT Work can pull info from across your apps and connect to your tools to help you create finished work. You can even automate work in ChatGPT with the Scheduled Tasks feature, and the whole time you stay in control. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at chatgpt.com by selecting Work Mode, available on Plus and Pro plans.

• 2:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hey, podcast listeners. Our new book, Think Like a Freak, will be published on May 12th as a hardcover, ebook, audiobook, large print edition, you name it. And if you preorder it in any format from any store, you can get the first chapter now delivered to your email inbox. Just go to Freakonomics.com/sneakpeek. There's a lot more information at Freakonomics.com, including our book tour schedule. Starts in New York City, where Levitt and I will speak and sign books at Symphony Space and at Barnes and Noble. We will also visit Washington DC, Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle, London, and the Hay Festival of Literature and the Arts in Wales. Again, all the details are at Freakonomics.com.

• 3:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  Chris Smith writes about politics for New York Magazine. You've been at New York Magazine how many years?

• 3:35Speaker 01

  Since 1988.

• 3:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  Who would you say is the most, let's call it influential, mayor in New York City history?

• 3:44Speaker 01

  Who? Easily LaGuardia, both because of the time he was mayor and the fact that so many mayors, not just New York City, try to model himself after him.

• 3:55Speaker 02

  We are going to try and demonstrate that a nonpartisan, nonpolitical, honest, clean government is possible in our city.

• 4:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  Fiorello LaGuardia was New York's mayor from 1934 to 1945. A long and eventful period. The Great Depression, Second World War. To lift the spirit of the citizenry, LaGuardia would sing to them. He'd read them the funny pages.

• 4:25Speaker 02

  Let's see what Big Tracy is doing. Now, get this picture. All the nice society people, you know? All the nice society people. Ha ha! Says the small district attorney. And say, children, what does it all mean? It means that dirty money never brings any luck.

• 4:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  How about another iconic New York City mayor?

• 4:50Speaker 03

  People of so many different backgrounds, so many different points of view, religions, cultures, joined together in one place.

• 4:57Speaker 01

  Giuliani makes a good case in terms of saving the city, of arriving at a pivotal time in the city's history, inheriting terrible crime statistics and making the city governable again in a law and order sense. And a lot of that being imitated, the data analysis, the data-driven approach to crime that he and Bill Bratton, then and now the police commissioner, introduced, has been imitated all over the world.

• 5:24Speaker 03

  We began with crime. We began with crime because it was the most basic problem that we had to solve.

• 5:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  Because Chris Smith knows so much about New York City politics, I wanted to see if I could stump him. I wanted to know if he could name another of New York's most accomplished mayors. All right, let me read to you a list of accomplishments from one of our past mayors. This person built Grand Central Terminal, still stands, presided over the opening of the subway, still runs, licensed the first taxicab, they're still going, built 19 new firehouses, 110 school buildings, including 11 new high schools, built 35 miles of new wharfage, including 51 new piers. Any idea who that master builder was?

• 6:14Speaker 01

  Hmm. John Highland, Seth Low.

• 6:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  Both good guesses. Any more? You got any more guesses?

• 6:21Speaker 01

  Vincent Impilateri.

• 6:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  Man, you'd...

• 6:24Speaker 01

  No, those are colorful names, but bad guesses.

• 6:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  So who is the man who did all that? And who also secured 277 acres of park space, finished construction of the New York Public Library, opened the Queensborough and Manhattan Bridges, and installed the world's first high-pressure water service to fight fires? George McClellan? Ah. You have him in your baseball card collection of great New York City mayors? George Mack, I call him. Okay, so most people haven't heard of Mayor George McClellan. His father, also George McClellan, was a Civil War general. The younger McClellan was mayor of New York from 1904 to 1909, just one term. And look at everything he got done in one term.

• 7:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  Now, granted, many of those projects were initiated by his predecessors. But even so, what a closer this guy was. George McClellan's fingerprints are all over the city, and yet, he's largely forgotten.

• 7:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  Today's program is about mayors, how they get stuff done out of necessity. And yet, unlike certain more visible chief executives, they're often overlooked. Chris Smith tells us that people even underestimate the power of New York City's mayor.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  Short of declaring war, you know, New York City's mayor has a greater direct influence on more lives than even a president.

• 8:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  On today's show, you'll hear from mayors from all over the country.

• 8:08Speaker 04

  The Rio Grande runs right through Albuquerque, so we've got the river. We've got the longest urban stretch of Route 66 in the country. So a lot of great vibe here.

• 8:16Speaker 05

  We have the number one airport in the world for origination and destination, the top port in the country, the largest municipal utility.

• 8:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, now you're just pissing us off here, I have to say.

• 8:24Speaker 06

  I think the Red Sox are going to win the division. I do hope the Yankees are better this year because it's not as much fun winning the World Series when the Yankees are so bad.

• 8:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  And we ask whether cities are a good template for the way government should work.

• 8:40Speaker 07

  A city is where you come face to face with all of the possibilities and the problems that are presented in our country.

• 8:50Speaker 08

  I think perhaps most dramatically, about five years ago, we crossed the threshold with more than 50% of humanity now lives in cities.

• 8:56Speaker 09

  If you're down, if you're feeling dispirited, if you're feeling nothing works, have a second look at cities.

• 9:17Speaker 10

  From WNYC, this is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything. Here's your host, Stephen Dubner.

• 9:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  Today's show is about mayors. Okay, so we happen to be in New York City and

• 9:46Speaker 05

  I've heard of it.

• 9:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  You've heard of it, thank you. And I've heard of yours. Eric Garcetti is the mayor of Los Angeles. You went to LSE, you are a jazz pianist, a photographer, you are lieutenant in the US Navy Reserve. So, I mean, I read your qualifications. I have to, please don't take this the wrong way. Aren't you deeply overqualified to be a mayor?

• 10:09Speaker 05

  You know, I think a mayor has to be ready for almost anything. I mean, the only thing that's predictable in this job is its unpredictability. You might be talking to a homeless resident of your city, somebody who's living on the streets, and then meet the crown prince of Spain right afterwards. So you have to, I think, have a pretty wide range of experiences. So I still think I'm underqualified.

• 10:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  We talked to Benjamin Barber, who's an academic and political theorist who wrote a book called If Mayors Ruled the World. I understand you may have read the book or no?

• 10:41Speaker 05

  You know, I just sleep with it right next to me to inspire me. But yes, I know Benjamin well. He's come and visited me out here.

• 10:47Speaker 09

  Benjamin Barber, I'm a senior research scholar at the City University of New York, professor emeritus at Rutgers University, a political theorist, and an author of 18 books, the most recent of which is If Mayors Ruled the World: Dysfunctional Nations, Rising Cities.

• 11:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  In the book, Barber argues that cities are paragons of good governance, potentially at least, and at least compared to nation-states, and that is largely due to their mayors. Mayors, Barber says, are inherently bipartisan. They can't afford not to be. And above all else, they're focused on solving actual problems. Mayors, of course, love this book.

• 11:29Speaker 09

  You know, Mayor Walsh, the first day in office, this picture in the front of the Boston Globe, he's sitting with a copy of that book, you know, right, right in front of him. And Mayor Garcetti has it, Mayor de Blasio has it, mayors are reading it. It's a great thing.

• 11:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  What is it that Benjamin Barber so admires about the modern mayor?

• 11:45Speaker 09

  There's a great story I tell of Teddy Colick, the longtime mayor of Jerusalem, who's a Zionist and quite one-sided in his views, but had to deal with a city full of Jews, Muslims, and Christians. And he tells the story on himself of a day in the 1980s in which Jewish rabbis, Muslim imams, and Christian prelates were in his office arguing, as they often did, about access to the holy sites in Jerusalem. And they were ranting at each other and going on and on. And he finally interrupted them. And he said, "Gentlemen, gentlemen, spare me your sermons, and I will fix your sewers." And that is a telling, you know, point about what mayors do. They fix sewers. They keep the trains running. They get the snow plowed. They pick up the garbage. And that is their job. So pragmatism is essential.

• 12:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, Mr. Mayor.

• 12:35Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 12:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hey, Stephen Dubner, how are you?

• 12:37Speaker 06

  Stephen, how are you?

• 12:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  Marty Walsh became Boston's mayor this past January. I talked to him shortly after his first day in office. So first of all, congratulations. How do you like being mayor so far?

• 12:48Speaker 06

  My five weeks and one day have been great.

• 12:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  Before he was mayor, Walsh served in the Massachusetts State Legislature for 16 years. Tell me something you've learned so far about the reach of the mayor's power that you hadn't quite anticipated.

• 13:05Speaker 06

  Very different than being a state legislator. As a legislator, we process things, we work forward towards an ultimate goal. By the time we get to a final vote, it's quite a bit. As a mayor, you can make impact immediately. Just one small thing, I was driving down the street and there was a big pothole on Park Street down the street. I made a phone call and five minutes later, it was filled.

• 13:27Speaker 07

  It's kind of where the rubber hits the road.

• 13:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  Toni Harp is the new mayor of New Haven, Connecticut. Like Marty Walsh, she spent many years in the state legislature. Also like Walsh, she appreciates her new job.

• 13:40Speaker 07

  Well, you know, I think that the difference is that in the Senate, you set policy, you can even write a budget, but you actually don't do implementation.

• 13:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  Harp didn't like not being able to implement. She says she'd often spent a lot of time and effort on a project, getting it funded, for instance, only to watch it fizzle out once it got out of her hands.

• 14:01Speaker 07

  Well, it is frustrating that you kind of have an idea how you see it rolling out, how you see it working, and then to find out later that for one reason or another, sometimes the money doesn't even get to the street at all.

• 14:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  The same goes for Richard Berry, mayor of Albuquerque. He too was a state legislator.

• 14:19Speaker 04

  As a legislator, it's much more deliberative. There's a lot more policy discussions. And as a mayor, you have the ability to be more agile and you can make things happen quicker. For example, recently, we were able to craft and put forward a bill to prohibit the sale of e-cigarettes to minors in Albuquerque. We were able to get that done much quicker because we didn't have to wait for the legislative session and the process that goes with that. So I think the agility is a big part of it. And you can bring initiatives to play and get them implemented. Quicker, more effectively, and you can do a lot of bold things. There's a reason that mayors love their job, and there's a reason I think people are turning to mayors to get things done, because mayors have shown the propensity to get things done.

• 15:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  Now, one reason that mayors look so good to Benjamin Barber is that our federal government looks so bad: inert, mired in gridlock, outdated. In his book, he writes that the very idea of the nation-state is anapomistic.

• 15:24Speaker 09

  It argues that nation-states, even where they work well, even where they're not frozen in time, even where they're not polarized and incapable of taking action, were born in an era of national societies where the problems the world faced were mostly contained by national jurisdictions.

• 15:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  As we've argued before on this program, the President of the United States isn't nearly as powerful as many people might imagine or hope him to be. But it goes beyond the straight comparison of president to mayor. As Barber points out, city governments are more nimble even when dealing with complicated issues. Eric Garcetti, L.A.'s mayor, says he's seen this firsthand with climate change policy.

• 16:07Speaker 05

  The C-40 is actually the 40 cities in the world that are combating climate change and doing it probably more effectively than, you know, the G-20. I do think that there is going to be an increasingly robust space for cities to talk to each other. I always like to say mayors are just like a band of thieves. We like to steal the very best from one another. I watch what a mayor in London is doing and say, "That would be great here." You know, "We stopped smoking in L.A., and then New York did it. You know, there's bike share in New York, we'll steal that and do it in L.A." So these things, I think, really are global. Cities are much more nimble, they're ready to act, and they have the platforms to do it in a way that national governments can't.

• 16:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  Coming up on Freakonomics Radio, if mayors are such great, hands-on executives, why have so few of them made it to the White House?

• 17:04Speaker 01

  You make a lot of enemies as New York City mayor. Even if you're very successful, you tend to piss a lot of people off.

• 17:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  And what if mayors ruled the world?

• 17:16Speaker 08

  I support the idea of communication across cities, so I think sharing ideas certainly is a good idea. A parliament is, by definition, essentially a legislative branch, and I think the beauty of mayors is that they are deeply executive. So I'm not particularly eager to transform these wonderfully focused executives into parliamentarians.

• 17:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Progressive. Whoever says saving money is hard doesn't know that new customers who bundle and save with Progressive save hundreds, because switching your home and auto insurance is better than cutting down on the things you love, like those iced lattes that help you get ready to face the day. So switch your home and auto to Progressive and see if you could save and keep sipping away. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers. Not available in all states.

• 18:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by PNC Bank. Boring. Great word, bad rep. Yet, time and time again, here at Freakonomics, we find that when something culture-changing happens, boring things like calculations and careful planning are usually behind it. Which begs the question, why not apply it to other aspects of life? Like banking, for example? Well, PNC Bank did, since its inception, proving time and again that the best banking strategy isn't the exciting type, but the steady, reliable, definitely not YOLO type. PNC Bank: brilliantly boring since 1865. Brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Inc. PNC Bank, National Association, Member FDIC.

• 19:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by hotels.com. Hotels.com helps you find and book the right stay for work faster. With business preferences, save your travel must haves like gym access or breakfast just once, then get tailored results whenever you search for work travel. Plus, with a free membership, you can save up to 20% on hotels and earn rewards on every stay for future travel. Book now at hotels.com. Visit hotels.com for details.

• 19:45Speaker 10

  From WNYC, this is Freakonomics Radio. Here's your host, Stephen Dubner.

• 19:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  OK, here's a quiz. How many US presidents started out as mayors? 15? 12? About three. Andrew Johnson, Grover Cleveland, and Calvin Coolidge. Why so few? Here's Chris Smith again, the political writer from New York Magazine.

• 20:17Speaker 01

  Probably a couple of reasons that mayors, because they have to pick up the trash and run police departments and do a lot of the quotidian important things, tend to be more focused on managerial qualities than grand visions, the kind of things that play well in presidential campaigns.

• 20:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  Ah, in campaigns, yeah.

• 20:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. Second, particularly in the case of New York City mayors, you make a lot of enemies as New York City mayor. Even if you're very successful, you tend to piss a lot of people off. And that baggage, when you take it to a Democratic Party or a Republican Party in rarer instances, just in political terms, I think that's held back a lot of New York mayors.

• 21:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's interesting. Is it easier to not tick people off as the governor of a state, whether it's New York or elsewhere? I mean, obviously, governor's been, yeah. Why is that?

• 21:12Speaker 01

  Both because you're interacting less in the day-to-day lives of your constituents, because you also generally, you know, in major northeastern states certainly have to balance a lot of different, both political and practical desires. You know, upstate New York, very different than New York City.

• 21:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  So that's interesting, just the idea of the a-characteristic of a mayor, whether successful mayor or not, is someone who inevitably will do things that will upset people because that's the job. Versus, now, but wouldn't you think that-

• 21:49Speaker 01

  It's also a harder job to succeed. You know, I think that even if the-

• 21:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  Because the measurables are more measurable in a way?

• 21:56Speaker 01

  Exactly, yes.

• 21:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  You'd think that the traits that make someone successful as a mayor would be incredibly valuable, however, at a state or federal level. Being an executive, getting things done, understanding that you're going to tick off certain constituencies in order to serve the greater good. And yet, it seems like when we look at this moment in time at least in the US at state and federal governance, we see, on the one hand, people who love to shout at their enemies across the aisle, but it's not like they're shouting in service of great accomplishment, are they? It seems like-

• 22:33Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 22:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  If you had to measure what's getting done on a daily basis, I'd think that most mayors are getting a whole lot done, more done than most governors and federal officials, yeah?

• 22:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, but this is probably another reason why mayors, particularly New York City, haven't gone on to higher office historically, is that the conditions that allow them to be autocratic here don't exist at the national level. It's very much more at the national level about building some-

• 23:04Speaker 01

  Your whole sense of compromise, you know, you've got to work with the Senate and the House in a way, you know, that doesn't exist at the local level. And so to Obama's frustration, obviously, he'd like to operate more like a mayor, more sort of unilaterally. And so maybe that's the quality that doesn't transfer terribly well.

• 23:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, so to be fair, if I were to force you to answer the question, would you prefer that the system works the way it does? Which is that mayors are fairly autocratic and the higher you go, the less you become so? Because that's the way our governing system was built. Or would you say, you know, it would be kind of great if, as Benjamin Barber argues, that mayors should rule the world? Because these are the people who are trained and experienced in executing and getting stuff done and balancing different likes and dislikes and constituencies. Is it necessarily a good thing that the president, for instance, is a figure of compromise? Or do you think, from your purchase of The Political Observer, that it would be kind of great if mayoral autocracy could be imported a little bit into the White House?

• 24:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, it'd be great if, you know, it were an autocrat I agreed with. But yes, certainly the blocking and tackling of government, the ability to make bureaucracies work, is a quality that you would love to see taken from a city hall to the White House. Ideally, I guess, if you could come up with a bunch of cabinet officials who had those mayoral qualities, while you had a president who was a consensus builder who enabled those people to do their jobs, that would be the ideal setup.

• 24:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  So what is the ideal setup? Ed Glaser is an economist at Harvard. We've talked to him before on this program. He is a great talker. Full paragraphs just leap from his mouth, fully formed, enunciated like a 19th century debating champion. He's also the author of a book called Triumph of the City. Notably, the title of this book is not Triumph of the Nation State.

• 25:15Speaker 08

  The remarkable thing about city leadership is the problems are very, very tangible. The scope of powers tends to be fairly limited, and it's limited both by law and by the ability of firms and people to leave by the small geographic size of these areas. And that means running a city is very different from running a country. On top of that, mayors tend to be very constrained into what they can do. They don't set their own tax rates, not even with the aid of the city council. Cities are always and everywhere in the US creatures ultimately of state government. And in some cases, the feds also exercise some form of oversight.

• 25:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  So you say that, and we understand this, that the powers and the duties of the mayor are constrained, especially compared to someone like the president. But that would seemingly confer its own set of advantages as well as disadvantages. And I understand that comparing even five mayors to one president is entirely an apples-to-oranges comparison. But the argument that we want to discuss today is whether a mayor, by nature of his or her job description and limits, is in some way in a position to govern better, more efficiently, more rationally than the head of state or federal governments.

• 26:32Speaker 08

  You know, I certainly consider myself friendly to that proposition. But I think as far as actually thinking about what we mean in terms of transforming a president to be more mayor-like, we would essentially mean we'd be foregoing all those contentious things that Barack Obama and the Republicans in the House are arguing over, right? It'd mean we'd be foregoing the possibility of the president trying to act on the minimum wage, or foregoing the possibility of the president trying to create radical new healthcare legislation. All of those things would be impossible if we suddenly said that we wanted our presidents to be like mayors. There is, however, of course, a beauty to what mayors do. They have very clear deliverables, like clear snow, like clean streets, like public safety, and they have a clear set of tools for achieving those goals.

• 27:17Speaker 08

  That means that they are relatively easy to grade at the end of the day relative to a president, and they can stay focused on making sure that commutes into work are human. So, and I think one piece of evidence, which I think is a very nice one that corroborates this view, is the work of Fernando Ferreira and Joe Jerko at the University of Pennsylvania, who find that it really doesn't matter, this is a paper that I edited when I was still at the Quarterly Journal of Economics, it really doesn't matter whether or not a Republican or a Democrat is elected mayor, they seem to do more or less the same thing. And this is, of course, done by, with a regression discontinuity approach, which just means we're basically comparing cities where 51% of the voters voted Republican with cities in which 51% of the voters voted for Democrats, so they're otherwise pretty identical. And

• 27:59Speaker 08

  having a Republican or Democrat in office makes very, very little difference at the local level, whereas of course it does at the state level, and even more so at the federal government level. And that's precisely because there's no Democratic or Republican way to clean the streets, as the old saying goes.

• 28:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  So, the book that Benjamin Barber's written, If Mayors Ruled the World, I don't know how familiar you are with the book, or at least its thesis.

• 28:20Speaker 08

  A bit, certainly. I've read some excerpts of it, certainly.

• 28:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay. So, I think the attraction of this idea that we're talking that mayors should, quote, "rule the world," whether we mean that metaphorically or in some tiny way, literally, is, you know, the idea that mayors have to be responsible to voters if for no other reason than that their potential losses are so much more tangible than a federal or state official. So, I get that, and I think it resonates with anyone. We all want the people that we elect, or, you know, choose, hire even, to be accountable. So, if that's the case, why is there such a disconnect between the municipal and state and federal levels? Is it just the way the system was built a few hundred years ago, and it's evolved

• 29:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  kind of stochastically, and we have to deal with it? Or is there some, you know, is there some greater or lesser reason for why we need this real accountability and satisfaction on the local level, and yet don't on the federal or state level?

• 29:21Speaker 08

  Right, so if we think about the history of this, right, the local governments really came first, I mean, the local and state governments, but even though they are politically beholden to the states, the rise of large-scale municipal spending preceded the rise in large-scale state spending, which then both preceded the rise in large-scale federal spending. I mean, one fact that I've repeated often is that at the start of the 20th century, cities and towns were spending as much on water as the federal government was spending on everything except for the post office and the army, right? So this is just water expenditures at the city and town level, right, which tells you just how big city governments were, and they were big, and taxpayers signed off on their size precisely because they were delivering something that was very, very tangible.

• 30:03Speaker 08

  Then you have the rise of the federal government, we can say this is 1900 to 1960, which is associated with at least two things, right? One of which is the increased role of the US in the world, two world wars and a Cold War, both of which were large-scale increases in the size of the federal government. And then the second of which was first under Teddy Roosevelt, then under Woodrow Wilson, and then under FDR, this increasing role the federal government played in being an agent against recession and an agent for fairness at the national level, an agent fighting inequality, an agent of trying to create a social security system. So if you think of those two things as being the fundamental reasons why the feds came about, and then perhaps to a lesser extent doing a little bit around transportation

• 30:45Speaker 08

  in the Eisenhower years, but really the big things were this sort of redistribution, anti-recessionary thing, and the wars and diplomacy thing. Both of those things, while they can be unbelievably expensive and potentially incredibly important, right, they're just not amenable to the same degree of precise accounting that we have for these things which came first, for these absolutely necessary things that cities do. So I guess I have trouble imagining how you're ever going to, you know, either put diplomacy or debates over redistribution, debates over social security, debates over Medicare in the same, you know, league as you can in terms of cities.

• 31:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  Benjamin Barber, in his book If Mayors Ruled the World, argues that we should create a global parliament of mayors to help solve problems that national governments aren't so good at solving. Ed Glazer is not so enthusiastic.

• 31:47Speaker 08

  I support the idea of communication across cities, so I think sharing ideas certainly is a good idea. A parliament is, by definition, essentially a legislative branch, and I think the beauty of mayors is that they are deeply executive. So I'm not particularly eager to transform these wonderfully focused executives into parliamentarians. But the spirit of having more discussions across cities, particularly to share ideas about how to improve the basics of city government, is certainly a good one.

• 32:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  In a way, though, this global parliament of mayors is already happening. As Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti tells us, mayors already get together regularly to swap ideas. Garcetti, like Ed Glazer, sees cities leading the way. And he thinks that Washington sees that, too. Garcetti recently visited the White House with 16 other new mayors.

• 32:37Speaker 05

  I was one of the few that had been sworn in, but the incoming mayors from Boston, New York, Minneapolis, Seattle, so on and so forth. And I said to the president then, we're looking for a partnership. If this was the 70s and 60s and the urban centers of America were burning, we probably would have come to Washington and said, "Washington, please save America's cities." Today, we come as America's cities, seeking to save Washington, because things are so broken at the national level. We can't afford to be partisan at the local level. People want their snow plowed, their trash picked up, their streets safe. They want to have a chance at a job, a decent place to live. And it's not 3,000 miles away or a few hundred miles away at the state capitol. It's here, it's now. So in that sense, mayors have to rule the world. They have to make that change.

• 33:22Speaker 05

  If not, you'll get tossed out of office. And at the end of the day, it's more about being a chief executive than kind of a commander in chief.

• 33:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hey, podcast listeners. Remember, our new book, Think Like a Freak, is out on May 12th. If you preorder it in any format from any bookstore, you can get the first chapter now. Just visit Freakonomics.com/sneakpeek. Also, we will be doing an episode of frequently asked questions about the new book, so send us your very best questions at [email protected]. And next week on the podcast, imagine the world just as it is today: computers, cars, even Beyonce, except for two things: there is no alcohol and no marijuana. And then, suddenly, on the same day, both of them are discovered. What happens next?

• 34:27Speaker 11

  I suspect alcohol would be banned within 10 years if it became available today. If marijuana was discovered today, I think people would probably accept it.

• 34:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's our thought experiment for the week. If you were starting with a clean slate, how would alcohol and marijuana be regulated, sold, taxed, and ingested? That's next time on Freakonomics Radio.

• 34:59Speaker 10

  Freakonomics Radio is produced by WNYC and Dubner Productions. Our staff includes David Herman, Greg Rosalsky, Greta Cohn, Borey Lam, Shruti Pinnamaneni, Susie Lechtenberg, and Chris Bannon, with engineering help from Jim Briggs. If you want more Freakonomics Radio, you can subscribe to our podcast on iTunes or go to Freakonomics.com, where you'll find lots of radio, a blog, the books, and more.

• 35:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by EverPure. Is the value of AI not living up to the promise? The problem is probably your data, not your AI models. When it's scattered across different systems, getting your data AI-ready is a challenge. You keep your AI waiting and everything slows down. EverPure unifies your data so you can see it, understand it, and control it all from one simple place and get it AI-ready fast. Unlock the true value of your AI at everpuredata.com.

• 36:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Ozempic. Innovation happens through rethinking what's possible. And when it comes to GLP-1s, Ozempic Pill does just that. Learn more about Ozempic semaglutide tablets, 4 and 9 milligrams, by calling 1-833-OZEMPIC or visit ozempic.com to view the medication guide and ask your doctor what's possible with FDA-approved Ozempic Pill.

• 36:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Southern Company. The world and its energy needs are always changing. Southern Company's commitment to meeting this demand stays the same. That's because Southern Company believes energy is more than a utility. It's what powers possibilities. So they are looking ahead and investing $80 billion in infrastructure upgrades and are committed to fueling growth in ways that benefit all customers so that reliable and affordable energy is accessible for generations to come. Go to southerncompany.com to learn more. Southern Company, building the future of energy.

• 37:12Speaker 12

  This episode is brought to you by Charles Schwab. Is there a right time to sell the stock? Are you taking the right risks with your portfolio? Financial decisions can be tricky, and often, your own cognitive and emotional biases can lead you astray. Financial Decoder, an original podcast from Charles Schwab, can help. Join host Mark Reapy as he offers practical solutions to help overcome the cognitive and emotional biases that may affect your investing decisions. Listen at schwab.com/financialdecoder.