Julian Assange | Operation Hotel | 3

Assange seeks asylum at London’s Ecuadorian Embassy to avoid facing charges abroad. It’s supposed to be a safe haven, but it begins to feel like a prison. He started this fight for press freedom. Now, he’s fighting for his own. Listen to British Scandal on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting https://wondery.com/links/british-scandal/ now. Do you have a suggestion for a scandal you would like us to cover? Or perhaps you have a question you would like to ask our hosts? Email us at [email protected] EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ nordvpn.com/scandal http://nordvpn.com/scandal Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alice Levine?

  Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of British Scandal ad-free right now. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app.

• 0:13Matt Forde?

  Morning, Alice.

• 0:15Alice Levine?

  Oh my god, it smells terrible in here.

• 0:19Matt Forde?

  Does it? To be honest, I've been here so long, I can't tell.

• 0:24Alice Levine?

  There's a flannel next to the wash hand basin. Are you bathing here?

• 0:27Matt Forde?

  Yeah, with what little water I can get out of that tap.

• 0:30Alice Levine?

  It smells of like vegetable soup. Are you cooking your meals in the booth?

• 0:34Matt Forde?

  Cooking's a big word. I just sit near them and around them until the food warms up and then I eat it.

• 0:39Alice Levine?

  I'm so confused. Are you living at British Scandal?

• 0:43Matt Forde?

  Alice, I'm a prisoner.

• 0:44Alice Levine?

  But you're not, because you can leave at any time.

• 0:46Matt Forde?

  What?

• 0:47Alice Levine?

  What do you mean?

• 0:49Matt Forde?

  Well, the show's always on, isn't it? So I have to be here to read out whatever episode people are pressing play on anywhere in the world.

• 0:56Alice Levine?

  Okay, I think you fundamentally misunderstand how podcasts work. You can go as soon as we stop recording. We do one episode a week. You need to go home to your wife.

• 1:06Matt Forde?

  My wife? Oh my god, I completely forgot. I thought she'd been ringing Les. Man, it's been a tough four years.

• 1:18Matt Forde?

  10am, the 11th of April 2019, Ecuadorian Embassy, Knightsbridge.

• 1:25Matt Forde?

  Julian's heart thuds as he stares out of the window, watching police officers pour from vans onto the pavement below. He runs into the bathroom and goes to lock the door, only to remember the bolt has long since been removed. He catches a glimpse of himself in the mirror, almost gasps at the man staring back at him. Julian's long white beard and crumpled suit jacket make him look far older than his 47 years. How long has he been sleeping in these clothes? How long since he washed his hair? He doesn't know anymore.

• 2:00Matt Forde?

  Officers burst into the room. Julian shakes his head defiant.

• 2:05Matt Forde?

  You do not have the authority. This is illegal. I must speak to the ambassador.

• 2:11Matt Forde?

  To Julian's relief, the ambassador appears beside the officers.

• 2:15Matt Forde?

  Tell them to leave. Tell them I'm protected by your government.

• 2:20Matt Forde?

  No, Mr. Assange. The Metropolitan Police are here on my invitation, as instructed by my president. You have been stripped of your Ecuadorian citizenship and your diplomatic asylum. Julian's whole body freezes. He crouches down like a wounded animal.

• 2:38Matt Forde?

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 2:42Matt Forde?

  The next thing Julian feels is cold steel cuffs closing tight around his wrists.

• 2:47Matt Forde?

  Julian Assange, you do not need to say anything, but anything you do say...

• 2:52Matt Forde?

  Julian blinks at him, disbelieving. He finds himself laughing, softly at first, then uncontrollably. It's too ridiculous. After all he's been through these past seven years, the sexual assault allegations, the accusations of espionage, being branded a terrorist, this is how it's going to end? Hoards of reporters and photographers descend as the officers carry Julian out to the building. He squints against the daylight, gulps in the fresh morning air. How many times has he dreamt in this moment of being outside, being free? But that's not what's happening now.

• 3:35Alice Levine?

  I was gonna say, a very important distinction.

• 3:38Matt Forde?

  Two out of three ain't bad. I'm outside, I'm free at this second, but I will be impounded.

• 3:45Matt Forde?

  In one last burst of defiance, he stares into the cameras, waits a finger in the air.

• 3:52Matt Forde?

  The UK must resist. You must resist. You must resist.

• 3:58Matt Forde?

  Julian keeps repeating the mantra as the doors of a police van slam behind him. But he knows the words are futile. The authorities have finally got him. Now, only one question remains. How will they make him pay?

• 4:21Speaker 03

  Hey, I'm Cassie Depeckle, host of Against the Odds from Audible Originals. In our latest series, when a fur trapper named Hugh Glass is brutally mauled by a grizzly bear and left for dead, he fights for survival and has a chance for revenge. Listen to Against the Odds on Audible or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 4:38Speaker 04

  Hi, I'm Candace DeLong, former FBI profiler and host of the podcast Killer Psyche. In our latest episode, we go inside the case of Krista Pike, the woman Tennessee tried to execute and failed. Listen to Killer Psyche on Audible or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 4:58Matt Forde?

  I'm Matt Ford.

• 5:02Alice Levine?

  And I'm Alice Levine.

• 5:03Matt Forde?

  And this is British Scandal.

• 5:18Matt Forde?

  Alice, what comes to mind when I say the word embassy?

• 5:21Alice Levine?

  Okay, free association, here we go. The cigarettes, the massive building in London where you get a US visa, but it's really intimidating, so you feel the need to admit to loads of crimes, just me. And the comedy club.

• 5:33Matt Forde?

  Yes, the infamous northern comedy club owned by Bernard Manning, who, for younger and international listeners, effectively invented the mother-in-law joke. My mother-in-law, Jesus Christ, I'm not saying she's tight. And then, you know, write your own appalling punchline.

• 5:47Alice Levine?

  I won't, I'll just let you hang there.

• 5:50Matt Forde?

  Thank you. Sadly, we're not doing an episode on Bernard Manning. So, in the context of this story, what about two words? What comes to mind when I say Ecuadorian embassy?

• 6:01Alice Levine?

  That makes more sense, and I feel like I've revealed too much. Okay, Pamela Anderson, weirdly, scruffy beards, the need for a deep clean after an overstay from a house guest.

• 6:14Matt Forde?

  Yes, rent-a-kill would have a field day in this place. This is the episode we've all been waiting for. You may remember last time, Julian had just been arrested, and now he needs to plan. How is he going to avoid being extradited to America? This is episode three, Operation Hotel.

• 6:35Matt Forde?

  Five years earlier, June 2012, Ellingham Hall, Norfolk. Julian twists his foot to adjust the heavy security tag clamped to his ankle, part of the terms of his house arrest. He looks up as his lawyer takes a file from his briefcase and eyes him earnestly.

• 6:55Matt Forde?

  The British Supreme Court was our best hope. I'm sorry, Julian, you have to surrender to the Swedish police within 24 hours.

• 7:04Matt Forde?

  Julian feels his stomach churn. He's spent the last 15 months fighting extradition to Sweden to avoid facing sexual assault charges. He shakes his head. What the hell have I been paying you for this last year? The lawyer shuffles his papers and stands.

• 7:22Matt Forde?

  Actually, Julian, you still owe me for the last three months.

• 7:26Alice Levine?

  Ooh, okay, so you walked into that one.

• 7:29Matt Forde?

  Okay, what did I pay you for the first nine months for?

• 7:33Matt Forde?

  Julian's chest tightens as he watches his lawyer head for the door. He bangs his fist on the table, shouts after him. Those fuckers will come for me the minute I get to Sweden. Whatever happens now, it's on you.

• 7:47Alice Levine?

  That's an interesting way to look at all of Julian's activities and behaviours to date, to just completely absolve himself of any personal responsibility.

• 7:57Matt Forde?

  Julian slumps back in his chair. He knows the CIA is behind these bogus charges. Private Manning's been in solitary confinement without trial for two years. Julian has no doubt the same fate awaits him if he's taken from here. Julian turns to see his PA in the doorway. We need to start filming your next Russia Today ep in five minutes. Chill them all want to postpone. The Ecuadorian president is already on the link-up.

• 8:26Alice Levine?

  Oh my god, that's the best sentence you're ever gonna get to say in your career, isn't it? The Ecuadorian president is already on the link-up.

• 8:33Matt Forde?

  And a line that his P A may well have been saying every week because Julian now has a show on Russia Today, which later became known as RT in this country. And you may remember it as a fake news channel, which was a Kremlin propaganda arm.

• 8:47Alice Levine?

  And of course, he got that gig by working his way up through Kids TV, am I right?

• 8:51Matt Forde?

  That's right, he was actually one of the twins in Fun House. And then got the news round gig. And that's how he got Russia Today. Julian groans, plods to the kitchen where his makeshift studio is set up, puts in his earpiece, forces a congenial smile. President Correa, it's a thrill to have you on the show. It is my pleasure. I am a great admirer of WikiLeaks. Julian grits his teeth. He knows all about Correa's attempts to strangle free speech in Ecuador. He decides to have some fun by putting him on the spot. What did you think about the cables we published that showed the US ambassador to Ecuador in a less than favourable light?

• 9:36Alice Levine?

  He's a proper little Parkinson, isn't he?

• 9:38Matt Forde?

  My next guest is the current president of Ecuador, South American country that you may know suppressors dissident. Please welcome President Correa.

• 9:50Alice Levine?

  But first, Kylie Minogue.

• 9:53Matt Forde?

  Correa snorts. I never liked him. His loftiness, his insolence, his imperial airs. Julian's taken aback by Correa's directness. Was the new ambassador any bitter? Correa shakes his head. Another loveless marriage. Julian chuckles. It soon becomes clear that Correa is vehemently anti-American. What you do is very important, Julian. The mainstream media has for many years misled people about countries like mine. I only wish more people could visit and see the truth about Ecuador for themselves. By the time they wrap up, Correa is treating him like an old friend. It's been wonderful meeting you, Julian.

• 10:37Matt Forde?

  Welcome to the club of the persecuted. Julian laughs.

• 10:43Matt Forde?

  Thank you, take care and don't get assassinated. Now Correa chuckles. I will try not to. And if you ever make it out of Britain and want to visit the country where you'll be celebrated, I have a drink waiting. Julian clicks off, his good mood fading as his mind turns to the clock on the wall. He has just 24 hours to find a solution to evade the Swedish authorities. The UK's best legal brains have failed him. Many of his friends have abandoned him.

• 11:18Matt Forde?

  But as he returns to his notes and stares at Correa's name, a new idea starts to form. He starts to wonder if the solution is staring him in the face.

• 11:35Matt Forde?

  The following day, 19th of June 2012, Ecuadorian Embassy, Knightsbridge.

• 11:43Matt Forde?

  Ecuadorian Ambassador Anna Alban Mora heads to the front desk where her PA is chatting to the receptionist. What's next?

• 11:51Matt Forde?

  You have a meeting with the High Commissioner in ten.

• 11:54Matt Forde?

  Alban Mora grimaces. She rolls the tension from her shoulders, then flinches as the reception door slams open. She looks up in frustration as a courier rushes in and whips off his helmet.

• 12:08Matt Forde?

  Excuse me, you can't just...

• 12:11Matt Forde?

  My name is Julian Assange. Your president has granted me asylum here, which I wish to invoke with immediate effect. Confused, Alban Mora eyeballs him.

• 12:22Matt Forde?

  I'm sorry, Mr Assange. I am the Ecuadorian ambassador and President Correa has said nothing about this to me.

• 12:31Alice Levine?

  You'd think this would be top of the morning briefing, wouldn't you? That a man seeking asylum dressed as a courier is going to rush into the foyer and demand sanctuary. You would hope that that would be flagged.

• 12:42Matt Forde?

  It would at least come up in any other business. Oh, and yes, the most wanted man on the planet, Julian Assange, who isn't the easiest to deal with, he's going to be coming to stay and we don't know how long for.

• 12:51Alice Levine?

  And we need to do a whip around for Janet's birthday. Okay, I think that's everything.

• 12:55Matt Forde?

  Any questions? No, good. Julian gives Alban Mora an affronted look. She glares back. This is her embassy. Whatever conversations or agreements you think you've made. She's interrupted by what sounds like thunder overhead. Believe me, ambassador, your president won't be happy if he switches on his TV to see British police dragging me out of here.

• 13:22Matt Forde?

  Alban Mora looks from the guards to Julian. She needs time to think, form a plan.

• 13:30Matt Forde?

  Take Mr Assange to the conference room. The ambassador waits for them to go. Her hand hovers over the phone.

• 13:38Matt Forde?

  She doesn't usually speak to the president without prior arrangements. But she makes the call. Mr President, Julian Assange has just turned up and— Correa cuts her off.

• 13:50Matt Forde?

  Yes, I am granting him asylum. He must be protected from the US government. I apologize if my people did not inform you before his arrival.

• 13:59Matt Forde?

  I'm not sure that's a good idea.

• 14:03Matt Forde?

  Just put him on a flight to Ecuador, Anna. We will take care of the rest.

• 14:08Matt Forde?

  The call ends, and Alban Mora sits in her study, head in her hands. The intercom crackles into life.

• 14:17Matt Forde?

  I have the British Foreign Secretary William Hague on the phone.

• 14:20Matt Forde?

  Christ! Alban Mora steals herself as he's put through. This can't be a coincidence.

• 14:28Matt Forde?

  I want to make this absolutely clear. We will not allow Julian Assange safe passage from the UK to Ecuador.

• 14:36Matt Forde?

  Alban Mora's jaw tightens. Mr Hague, this is a matter for the Ecuadorian government.

• 14:43Matt Forde?

  With respect, only what happens on your soil is a matter for your government. When Assange leaves the embassy, he will be placed in police custody.

• 14:54Matt Forde?

  Alban Mora hangs up and rubs her temples. She's sure she has a migraine coming on.

• 15:01Matt Forde?

  She heads to the conference room where Julian sits drumming his fingers. Mr Assange, I'm afraid the police will arrest you as soon as you try to get your flight. The best thing you can do is hand yourself in. Julian is incensed.

• 15:16Matt Forde?

  No, I'll stay here until my lawyers can arrange for me to leave safely.

• 15:21Matt Forde?

  Alban Mora tenses. I don't think you understand, Mr Assange. That could take days, weeks even. And we don't have the facilities. I insist you take it to the prison.

• 15:36Alice Levine?

  So this is a very strange situation. As long as he stays here in the embassy, on the embassy grounds, he's safe. As soon as he leaves, he can be arrested. Once he's on the plane, safe again.

• 15:46Matt Forde?

  Yes, the bit in between counts as British soil, and it sounds like they hadn't thought about that.

• 15:50Alice Levine?

  So we obviously know that he ended up staying in the Ecuadorian embassy, sorry, spoiler, coming up, for a great deal of time, but that was never the plan. I think I'd always assumed that there was a little bit of his strategy, which was, I'll camp out of the embassy.

• 16:04Matt Forde?

  He was meant to be on an Ecuadorian beach, drinking pina coladas, trotters up, having the time of his life. He certainly wasn't planning to deprive himself of vitamin D for quite this long.

• 16:18Matt Forde?

  Alban Mora eyeballs him, burning with frustration. She already knows what the president is going to say.

• 16:26Matt Forde?

  She hurries back to her P A. Get our lawyers on their phone. Alban Mora doesn't care how she does it. She's going to get William Hague overruled and have Julian Assange removed from her embassy before the week is out.

• 16:45Matt Forde?

  One year later, July 2013, Ecuadorian Embassy, Knightsbridge. Julian breathes in Pamela Anderson's musky perfume as she envelops him in a tight hug.

• 16:59Matt Forde?

  Oh Julian, I'll come again next month.

• 17:02Matt Forde?

  Julian peels himself away and moves to Lady Gaga's outstretched arms.

• 17:07Matt Forde?

  Stay strong, Jules. I will. Thanks for coming.

• 17:14Matt Forde?

  He heads back to the cramped room he's commandeered at the back of the building. An office with a kitchenette and mattress on the floor, connected to a tiny bathroom. Julian's heart sinks as he realises the two WikiLeaks staff members who visit daily have already gone home. He looks at the scattering of birthday cards on the mantelpiece. He can't believe he's been living here for a year. His eyes move to the box sets of The West Wing and The Twilight Zone on the shelf. He can't face another episode. Julian picks up his skateboard and whizzes down the corridor, passing a tutting diplomat along the way.

• 17:49Alice Levine?

  Oh my god. Julian Assange, obviously a very divisive character. Believe what you want about him, but this is obnoxious as hell.

• 17:58Matt Forde?

  Send him to Guantanamo. This really crosses the line for me. Mira por donde vas, delincuente! Julian bristles. Kicks the board into his hand. He's picked up enough Spanish to know the word for criminal by now. I'm a fucking political prisoner!

• 18:15Alice Levine?

  Yes, well then stop doing ollies and kickturns outside important offices, thank you.

• 18:21Matt Forde?

  This is an embassy, not a bloody half-pipe. Julian skulks back to his room, and switches on a blue skylight frequency lamp, pointing it towards the ceiling. Then he climbs onto his treadmill, a gift from another supporter, the screenwriter Ken Loach. He clicks on the TV and starts walking as he watches a report on Edward Snowden.

• 18:43Matt Forde?

  The 29-year-old NSA intelligence contractor-turned-whistleblower arrived in Moscow two weeks ago.

• 18:50Matt Forde?

  He punches the speedometer in frustration and increases his pace. Clenches his fists as he fights his jealousy. He slams the stop button, jumps off the treadmill, tries to catch his breath as he picks up the phone and calls his lawyer.

• 19:09Matt Forde?

  There must be something you can do to speed up my appeal.

• 19:13Matt Forde?

  Sorry, Julian. William Hague won't budge, and without the cooperation of the government, we're tied up in red tape. We'll get there, but you need to be patient.

• 19:23Matt Forde?

  Julian snaps back. I've been here thirteen fucking months. How much more patient can I be? Julian hangs up the phone and sinks to his knees, stares at the tabloid headline on his bed, describing him as a grounded schoolboy. It's humiliating. President Correa has dubbed the security effort to protect him "Operation Hotel",

• 19:49Matt Forde?

  but with his fake sunlight and cramped living space, he feels more like a battery hen. This isn't a hotel, it's a gilded cage. And right now, Julian can't see any way forward... ...or out.

• 20:07Matt Forde?

  Five months later, December 2013, Ecuadorian Embassy, Knightsbridge.

• 20:14Alice Levine?

  Oh, boy, still here.

• 20:15Matt Forde?

  Julian sits cross-legged on his mattress. He barely glances up at the figure in the doorway.

• 20:22Matt Forde?

  Instead, he narrows his eyes at the laptop balanced on his knees, and specifically, the email he's just received. Benedict Cambebech wants to play me in a film. He doesn't even look like me.

• 20:35Matt Forde?

  Only now does Julian coldly acknowledge his visitor. Who are you? Benedict's agent. He looks up sharply to see a woman smiling wryly at him. Actually, I'm Stella Morris. I've just joined your legal team. He scans her youthful face. She barely looks out of her teens. I graduated from Oxford some time ago. Then I did my masters at Complutense in Madrid, in case you were wondering about my qualifications. Her expression softens. Mr Assange, I specifically sought out your case because I believe passionately in what you stand for. Ever since you released collateral murder... He holds up a hand to silence her. He doesn't need another fan. Where are we with the appeal?

• 21:21Matt Forde?

  Hague is digging his heels in. We think he's under pressure from the US not to let you get to Ecuador. Christ, tell me something I don't know. You might as well not be here. Piss off. To his surprise, Stella doesn't move. He glances up, sees her look around at the bare room. You're throwing quite the pity party.

• 21:43Alice Levine?

  Oh, burn.

• 21:45Matt Forde?

  I'd never want to go to a pity party. If you're thinking of throwing one, count me out.

• 21:50Matt Forde?

  I've been looked up here for nearly eighteen months. I think I'm allowed to feel sorry for myself.

• 21:58Matt Forde?

  He adjusts his legs as Stella sits down beside him. I had a similar childhood to you, Mr Assange. We moved around constantly, never settled. South Africa, Sweden, Spain, Canada.

• 22:11Alice Levine?

  Oh, that's what I'm hearing, right.

• 22:13Matt Forde?

  You know what? I thought you might say something like that. And even though I expected it, it still hurt.

• 22:17Alice Levine?

  No, I'm serious. She sounds South African, Sweden, Spanish, Canadian, yeah.

• 22:22Matt Forde?

  Julian glares at her, disbelieving. Giving me your travelogue isn't helping. What I'm saying is, when I finally found a place to sit still, it felt good. Calming even. Only now does Julian look at her properly. He takes in her long, dark hair, porcelain skin and full lips. You could see this place as a haven, a gift. Somewhere to be still, reset. Her soft voice starts to soothe him. It's the most positive thing he's heard in months. She reaches across and gently touches his hand. He feels a frisson of electricity.

• 23:02Alice Levine?

  Oh, Christ.

• 23:03Matt Forde?

  Her cheeks flush. She pulls away. Sorry, Mr Assange. I didn't mean to... He reaches over and takes her hand back. Please. Call me Julian.

• 23:18Alice Levine?

  Please don't let this be what I think it is. Make this stop.

• 23:21Matt Forde?

  I feel ill. He feels Stella's hand in his. They gaze at each other in silence.

• 23:29Matt Forde?

  He can't help thinking that by spending more time with this woman, he can get back to being the man he once was. Because she's right. This needn't be a prison. It could be a war room. He tightens his grip around her hand as he makes a decision. He's going to do as she says. Reboot. Re-energize. He's going to fight harder, louder and stronger than he ever has. It's high time he reminds the world that Julian Assange is a force that cannot be silenced.

• 24:14Speaker 04

  In January 1995, 18-year-old Krista Pike and two friends lured a classmate, 19-year-old Colleen Slemmer, to an abandoned steam plant and killed her. At just 20 years old, Pike was sentenced to death. 30 years later, on September 30th, 2026, the state of Tennessee tried to execute her and failed. I'm Candace DeLong, former FBI profiler and host of the podcast Killer Psyche, where we go inside the minds behind the most shocking crimes. In our latest episode, we take you inside the case of Krista Pike. The brutal crime, the childhood of abuse, three decades of appeals, and the night an execution went terribly wrong.

• 24:59Speaker 04

  Follow Killer Psyche wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of Killer Psyche one week early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 25:14Speaker 05

  By 1779, Benedict Arnold had sacrificed more for the revolution than almost any other man in America. One of George Washington's most effective commanders, he had nearly lost a leg in the Second Battle of Saratoga. But in return, Arnold believed he had been humiliated by Congress and cheated of his glory by lesser men, so he decided to make them pay. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of the podcast American Scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in US history: presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, Benedict Arnold turns his back on his comrades in the Continental Army and secretly defects to the British. With the help of his wife, he plots to hand over the most important colonial fortress

• 25:58Speaker 05

  to the enemy and doom the revolution he once served. Follow American Scandal wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of American Scandal early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 26:22Matt Forde?

  Three and a half years later, April 2017, CIA headquarters, Langley, Virginia. CIA Director Mike Pompeo slams a copy of The Washington Post on the conference table. Its headline reads: "Vault 7: CIA Hacking Tools Revealed by WikiLeaks." He can't understand how a freak stuck in a goddamn Ecuadorian embassy has just published over 8,000 classified documents detailing his department's surveillance and hacking of Western leaders and citizens. Mike Pompeo eyeballs the assembled agents.

• 27:05Matt Forde?

  Does someone want to tell me why the fuck we haven't done anything about this hack? He's been a goddamn bug up the US's ass since 2010. Pompeo slams his hand on the table as his operatives eye each other sheepishly. Anyone? He's only been in this job a month, and he's already presiding over the CIA's biggest ever data leak. He's even had President Trump on the phone tearing him a new one. An operative clears her throat.

• 27:32Matt Forde?

  The problem is, we can't touch him while he's holed up in that embassy in London. He has asylum status. Pompeo's face reddens. Jesus, he's running that embassy like his own personal data centre. What's he got, the goddamn president of Ecuador in his pocket? The first operative turns back to Pompeo, a smile forming. Maybe not for much longer. Word is Korea is planning to step down. The next Ecuadorian president might be more US-friendly. Especially if we apply some pressure. Pompeo feels a surge of adrenaline. This could be the breakthrough they need. Let's get out of the White House. Have them make a few calls. The team starts pushing chairs back.

• 28:17Matt Forde?

  Pompeo holds a hand up. He's not done yet. I'm not leaving this to the diplomats. Find a way to get our people all over that embassy, inside and out. I want to know every move that asshole makes.

• 28:32Alice Levine?

  That'll be quite easy. It's sort of mattress to Washan Basin, Washan Basin to kitchenette, really, isn't it?

• 28:39Matt Forde?

  Mike Recieve, he's gone from the kettle to the toaster.

• 28:42Alice Levine?

  Mike Recieve, episode four, West Wing, series three.

• 28:46Matt Forde?

  Mike, yeah, you're right, it's a great episode. Pompeo puffs out his chest, finally feeling like he's in control.

• 28:55Matt Forde?

  This slippery son of a bitch is an enemy of this country. And he's going to use the whole might of the CIA, the whole might of the US fucking A, to bring him down. He won't rest until Julian Assange is rotting in an American jail.

• 29:18Matt Forde?

  A month later, Ecuadorian embassy, Knightsbridge. Julian bounces his one-year-old baby boy on his lap. He grins at Stella, who rests a small kitten on her pregnant belly. Julian's erected a small, orange, canvas tent in his room to try and create a semblance of privacy. He smiles as the dappled sunlight casts a warm glow across his boy's scruff of hair. Hi Gabriel, shall we see if my new friend wants to play? He watches Gabriel's eyes widen as he dangles a ball of wool in front of the kitten's swiping paw. It's only the sight of Stella dolefully checking her watch that reminds Julian this picture of domesticity is happening in an embassy, rather than their own home.

• 30:04Matt Forde?

  I wish you could stay longer. At least you have Michi now. I'll come again tomorrow. Julian gives a little wave as he watches them disappear down the hall. Noticing one of the Ecuadorian diplomats locking up his office for the day, Julian rips a page from a nearby notepad and makes his way over. So, next week's guest list, I've added a few names. Eric Cantona, Vivian Westwood, some journalists who want to interview me about Vault 7, and Reverend Jesse Jackson wants to come again.

• 30:36Alice Levine?

  It's funny that he puts these little birthday parties together and then gives it to a diplomat to organise. Here's the menu I'd like, here's the guest list.

• 30:43Matt Forde?

  Yeah, could we have some nibbles? Getting sick of volavants, there must be Ecuadorian food we could have. To Julian's surprise, the diplomat shakes his head. Sorry, Mr Assange. Your access is to be reviewed. Orders from the new ambassador before he left for his visit to Ecuador. Can I assume you have not heard the news? Julian stays on him, no idea what he's talking about. Rafael Correa is no longer our leader.

• 31:12Alice Levine?

  Oh dear.

• 31:14Matt Forde?

  Julian's heart begins to race. He's been so consumed with Vault 7, he's barely given Ecuadorian politics a thought. He races back to his room and picks up his phone. He's always dealt with Correa directly. He doesn't see why he can't do the same with the new president. But he's confused when he can't get a dial tone. He glances at his phone but realises he has no signal. He opens up his laptop to write an email instead. But as he does, the screen flickers and dies.

• 31:46Alice Levine?

  Oh, this has given me the goosebumps a bit.

• 31:48Matt Forde?

  He's about to check the plug when he's plunged into darkness.

• 31:52Alice Levine?

  What's going on?

• 31:54Matt Forde?

  He starts to stand when the lights flare back to life and his laptop reboots. But to his horror, his broadband connection has gone.

• 32:02Matt Forde?

  What the f—

• 32:04Matt Forde?

  Julian jumps to his feet, races into the corridor looking for help. But the building is empty, all its offices locked. He peers out of the nearest window. Alarmed, he realises his security team is missing.

• 32:19Alice Levine?

  Oh my god, I'm actually getting really antsy.

• 32:22Matt Forde?

  His stomach lurches. He knows it must be the US. He has to contact Stella. She's the only person he trusts. He needs to talk to her before it's too late.

• 32:42Matt Forde?

  One day later, West London. Stella cradles a phone in her neck. It'll be okay. I'm your lawyer. They can't stop me from visiting you. Julian's voice crackles with desperation.

• 32:55Matt Forde?

  They've taken my security. I've had all lines of communication cut. I know it's the CIA.

• 33:03Matt Forde?

  Stella tries to keep her tone measured. You've always been safe there. That won't change. How about I bring Gabriel later? She hears Julian hesitate, then whisper.

• 33:16Matt Forde?

  Did you hear that?

• 33:18Matt Forde?

  Hear what?

• 33:19Matt Forde?

  There was a click. I don't think this line is secure.

• 33:22Matt Forde?

  Julian, I need you to—

• 33:26Matt Forde?

  She hears the line cut. Shit! She bites her lip, quickly places Gabriel in his buggy. She needs to get to the embassy. But as she's about to leave, a direct message pops up on her laptop. It's from a WikiLeaks source, who gets her regular US intel. "US grand jury has said in secret: 'Espionage charges to be unsealed as soon as they have hands on Jay.' 'Talk of plan to assassinate Jay, or kidnap and transport to the US... 'Could be eyes on you and Gabriel.'" Stella's gut plummets at the mention of her son.

• 34:05Matt Forde?

  She's always kept her relationship with Julian secret. She hasn't even told her own family that Gabriel is Julian's. Stella leans forward, parts the curtains, stares at a Range Rover with darkened windows on the street. She moves her gaze to a street sweeper, slowly pushing a cart down the road. He stops, looks directly at the window, locking eyes with her. She gasps and moves away from the glass. She whispers to herself: "Christ! Keep it together!" She's spent enough time with Julian to know that the threat from the CIA is all too real.

• 34:47Matt Forde?

  She cups her pregnant stomach as she starts to bash out a reply to the informant. She has to stop Julian from being taken to the US.

• 34:57Matt Forde?

  But as she looks across at her son, she knows she'll have to cut down her visits. She refuses to put her children at risk. She just hopes Julian will be strong enough to keep fighting from within the embassy.

• 35:16Matt Forde?

  Two years later, April 2019, Ecuadorian Embassy, Knightsbridge.

• 35:24Matt Forde?

  Julian lays on his bed, hugging his knees to his chest.

• 35:29Matt Forde?

  The room is dark, but his red eyes remain open. He's not sure how long he's been like this, but he knows the last time he spoke, it was to demand a call with Stella. He tugs at his beard, forces himself to sit up. Expect to find Michi at his feet, but he's not there. Michi? Michi? A staffer appears. Julian eyes her with suspicion. Where's Michi? She returns an impassive look.

• 36:00Matt Forde?

  We gave him to the animal shelter. The smell of excrement became unacceptable.

• 36:06Matt Forde?

  Julian pulls his knees back towards him as he fights back tears. His eyes burn into her. But he sits up when she holds out a phone. Your lawyer is waiting to speak to you. He scrambles off the bed, grabs the mobile, then steps over the piles of dirty clothes and plates of mouldy food strewn across the floor.

• 36:26Alice Levine?

  The reports on this at the time were stomach churning. It wasn't just, as I recall, dirty plates. Were there not dirty walls reported?

• 36:37Matt Forde?

  Dirty walls that were dirty with feces. Used underpants had been stuffed in places to block them. It was absolutely disgusting. It looked like a dirty protest from the IRA era.

• 36:49Alice Levine?

  It was Maxwell Towles' levels of gross. If you haven't heard that series, maybe don't right this second.

• 36:56Matt Forde?

  In the bathroom, he switches on the small squelch box. He asks Stella to sneak in.

• 37:02Alice Levine?

  I desperately don't want to know what a squelch box is. Is that something that you would find on a specialist website?

• 37:08Matt Forde?

  Possibly, but this sort of squelch box sends signals that disrupt surveillance devices. So it's a way for him to talk on the phone and know it's private. Once he's sure the squelch box is working, he whispers into the phone.

• 37:22Alice Levine?

  I cannot stress enough, I'd love you to stop saying squelch box.

• 37:26Matt Forde?

  Stella?

• 37:27Matt Forde?

  Yes, yes, it's me.

• 37:30Matt Forde?

  Relief overwhelms him, but he can hear a hesitancy in her voice.

• 37:35Matt Forde?

  There's been a development. President Moreno is threatening to revoke your asylum status.

• 37:41Matt Forde?

  Julian's heart seems to stop. Why? Stella hesitates again.

• 37:47Matt Forde?

  There have been some leaks. Documents in the Ecuadorian press accusing him of corruption.

• 37:54Matt Forde?

  He thinks you're behind them.

• 37:56Matt Forde?

  He shakes his head, unable to take it in. How could I even do that with no access to email? It's the USA!

• 38:04Matt Forde?

  That's what I've been trying to tell Moreno. I'm sure he won't do anything.

• 38:09Matt Forde?

  Julian hears Gabriel mutter something in the background. He wishes he could reach down the phone and grab him.

• 38:15Matt Forde?

  We'll sort this out, I promise.

• 38:18Matt Forde?

  Julian heads back to the bed. In Michi's absence, he picks up one of Gabriel's old stuffed toys and holds it close. Breathes in the scent. He finds his eyelids getting heavy. He allows them to close, and lets sleep take him at last.

• 38:37Matt Forde?

  Until he starts to hear distant wails from outside. He pries his open his eyes, pulls himself up disorientated. He forces himself to move towards the window. He wants to tell whoever it is to shut up. But when he pushes the curtain aside, he's met with the scene of his nightmares. Dozens of met police streaming from vans and heading towards the door. A helicopter hoes into view. His heart thuds like a jackhammer. He springs to his feet, hearing boots rushing up the embassy's marble stairs. Julian looks around frantically. He needs to figure out his next move. But there's no time. The door flies open, and he's faced with half a dozen armed policemen.

• 39:23Matt Forde?

  There's nowhere left to run. After nine years, the Americans have finally got him. And he fears they're about to make him pay with his life.

• 39:39Alice Levine?

  This is a hell of a lot of manpower to extract one man from an embassy.

• 39:43Matt Forde?

  It is, but if you've ever seen 24 Hours in Police Custody, you'll know how hard it is to arrest one guy on a council estate. This is a guy with a lot of powerful allies and friends. You're never sure what he's up to. You've got to have all the exits and windows covered. Also, there probably is an element of them wanting not just to apprehend him, but be seen to be apprehending him. On top of that, involving a helicopter is just cool.

• 40:10Speaker 03

  Hey, I'm Cassie DePecce, the host of Against the Odds from Audible Originals. In each episode, we share thrilling true stories of survival, putting you in the shoes of the people who lived to tell the tale. In our latest series, we track the story of Hugh Glass, the real-life revenant that inspired the 2015 film starring Leonardo DiCaprio. In 1823, Glass was brutally mauled by a grizzly bear in present-day South Dakota and left for dead. His survival depended on trekking through 350 miles of wilderness alone with grave injuries. But he was driven by his thirst for revenge. Follow Against the Odds wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of Against the Odds early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 40:54Speaker 06

  Journalist Tristan Redman goes where no son-in-law should ever go: deep into his wife's family history, digging up the cold case of who murdered her great-grandmother. Because, I should mention, he thinks the murderer might actually be the beloved family patriarch. For the best binge-watch series like Ghost Story, listen to the Audible True Crime Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

• 41:20Matt Forde?

  One month later, May 2019, Belmarsh Prison, London. Julian peers over his shoulder, trembles as a prisoner taps his foot impatiently. He presses the receiver tight against his ear, tries to focus only on what Stella is saying.

• 41:40Matt Forde?

  Did you hear me, Julian? It's just one charge.

• 41:44Matt Forde?

  Julian tries to process. The US government has charged him with conspiracy to commit computer intrusion, and his legal team in the UK is working tirelessly to stop him being extradited to the States while he fights it.

• 41:58Matt Forde?

  I'd still need to go to US prison, though, right? Yes, but we're working really hard to get a deal.

• 42:05Matt Forde?

  Julian shakes his head.

• 42:06Matt Forde?

  No deals. We agreed.

• 42:09Matt Forde?

  There's a long pause.

• 42:12Matt Forde?

  Just listen, please. The maximum sentence is five years. But if we argue it down, you could be out in two.

• 42:20Matt Forde?

  His throat tightens. Two years?

• 42:25Matt Forde?

  Stella's voice catches.

• 42:27Matt Forde?

  Two years. You'd need to do the time in a US prison, but then you'd be done. And all this would be over.

• 42:34Matt Forde?

  Julian swore he'd never cut a deal with the US. But he's missed so much of his boys' young lives already.

• 42:42Matt Forde?

  Okay. I'll think about it.

• 42:46Matt Forde?

  Julian shuffles back to his tiny cell. He slumps onto the hard bed and takes in the bars across the window, the oppressive walls. It doesn't seem possible that a US prison could be worse than Belmarsh. He thinks about the years he's already rotted in the Ecuadorian embassy.

• 43:04Alice Levine?

  But thank you so much for your hospitality.

• 43:07Matt Forde?

  He's strong enough to manage another two years locked up, isn't he? For the sake of Stella and the kids? He jumps to his feet and rushes to the door. Bangs his fist on it until a guard flips open the hatch.

• 43:20Matt Forde?

  I have to see my lawyer. It's urgent.

• 43:24Alice Levine?

  I thought he was gonna say, here's my list of people for the dinner party, and they're gonna be like, ugh. I know that's how it worked at the embassy, but Belmarsh is a little bit different. You only get three dinner party guests, not four.

• 43:33Matt Forde?

  Paul Scholes, Sid Vicious and Gina G.

• 43:38Matt Forde?

  An hour later, Julian wrings his hands as he sits in the visitors' room, desperate for Stella to arrive.

• 43:46Matt Forde?

  Now he's made peace with his decision, he can't wait to share it. But as she enters, she looks shell-shocked.

• 43:54Matt Forde?

  What's happened?

• 43:55Matt Forde?

  Stella blinks tears from her eyes.

• 43:57Matt Forde?

  The US just unsealed seventeen new conspiracy indictments against you. You're looking at a possible hundred and seventy-five years in prison. Or...

• 44:07Matt Forde?

  Stella trails off. Julian doesn't need her to go on. He whispers the words for her. The death penalty. He begins to tremble. Stella grabs his hand, squeezes it so tight her knuckles whiten. Julian will have to keep fighting to stay here after all. For years, if that's what it takes. The alternative is no longer an option. If he loses this appeal... He's a dead man.

• 44:42Alice Levine?

  I have to say, when you said five years reduced to two for a deal, that seemed ridiculous. That seemed like that was never going to happen because how could that be all they were going to get him on? 175 years or execution actually is more in line with what I thought they would throw at him.

• 44:59Matt Forde?

  Yeah, and this is why he was always resisting that initial arrest was he always suspected that more charges would follow because of what he'd been doing. And that's also why he didn't want to get extradited to Sweden on those charges. Because he then thought he'd be flown to Sweden to face those charges, but then extradited to the US.

• 45:20Matt Forde?

  Two years later, January 2021, the Old Bailey, London. Stella waves to the crowds outside court. Her heart swells with pride as she takes in the placards being waved by the protesters, some of whom wear gags to represent their disgust at Julian's treatment.

• 45:39Alice Levine?

  And I also seem to remember some people were using squelch boxes in solidarity.

• 45:45Matt Forde?

  Yeah, I think the gags are probably there just to cover their noses in case Julian still smelt of feces. With the likes of Amnesty International now helping her publicise Julian's plight, she's sure today he will finally walk free. Installed in the public gallery, she steals herself as she watches Julian's QC rise to his feet. The defence calls Julian Assange. Her stomach tightens when he emerges. He's lost at least 15 kilos and wears a haunted look as he limps towards the witness box. Please state your name and date of birth for the court. Julian's eyes travel to Stella's. She forces a weak smile. When he eventually speaks, he's barely audible.

• 46:29Alice Levine?

  But for the purposes of the podcast, could you make him audible?

• 46:32Matt Forde?

  Well, I feel like I should be true to what happened. Julian, um, Julian, Paul Assange, born, um...

• 46:46Matt Forde?

  I don't recall. Tears prick her eyes. After a few more moments, the judge dismisses him from the stand, stating he's not fit to give evidence. A lump lodges in Stella's throat, as he's replaced by one medical professional after another, outlining his increasingly fragile mental state. It is my belief that if moved to US prison, Mr Assange's recent diagnosis of clinical depression would be exacerbated. Mr Assange faces a severe risk of suicide if extradited. Stella is sickened when the prosecuting counsel shows no mercy in her comeback. Mr Assange's declining health is not the issue.

• 47:30Matt Forde?

  He conspired to obtain classified information and must face justice. Stella twists her engagement ring round and round her finger as the judge prepares to give her verdict. After what seems like an eternity, she addresses the court. It is my view that Mr Assange Stella stares at the judge. should answer the allegations made against him by United States prosecutors. Stella feels as if the ground has been pulled from beneath her. She eyes Julian in the secure glass dock. She's about to scream at the injustice of it all. However, I believe procedures described by the US

• 48:12Matt Forde?

  will not prevent Mr Assange from finding a way to commit suicide. For that reason, I have decided extradition would be oppressive by reason of mental harm.

• 48:24Matt Forde?

  There's a buzz of activity in the gallery. Loud cheers alongside murmurs of surprise. Stella is so overwhelmed with relief, she can't contain herself. Thank God, thank God.

• 48:38Alice Levine?

  Do try and contain yourself Stella, because it would be a real shame if you went down for contempt of court.

• 48:43Matt Forde?

  Don't over celebrate, this is Britain. Mr Assange is to be returned to Belmarsh. A rush of adrenaline surges through Stella's veins. She finds herself running from the courtroom through the large doors of the Old Bailey. Outside, she breathlessly beckons the mob of eager reporters over, shouts into the air.

• 49:04Matt Forde?

  I call on the US president to end this now, to tear down these prison walls and let our little boys have their father. Free Julian, free the press, free us all.

• 49:16Matt Forde?

  Stella looks beyond the press pack to the protesters waving frantically, the passersby who slow down to add their shouts of support. She clenches a fist and pumps it skywards, just like Julian would. She won't stop fighting until she's brought him home. She just prays he can keep the faith until she does.

• 49:44Matt Forde?

  Three years later, June 2024, Belmarsh Prison, London.

• 49:53Matt Forde?

  Wake up, Assange! Julian slowly blinks himself to consciousness. He stands and silently follows the guard to the front desk, where he's cuffed and led to a small room. His heart sinks as he finds his lawyer waiting inside. He'd been hoping it'd be Stella. Julian, I'm sorry this has all been so sudden. We didn't want to get your hopes up until we were sure. Julian struggles to speak at first. Hopes? We've brokered a deal. If you admit to one counterbreach in the Espionage Act, the US will drop all the other charges. He looks at the lawyer in disbelief. You'll be sentenced to time already served and released on the condition you go straight to Melbourne.

• 50:37Matt Forde?

  Melbourne? It's a trip, it has to be.

• 50:41Matt Forde?

  His lawyer looks him in the eye and smiles. Stella's on her way to the airport with the boys. The human rights arguments we've been making finally cut through, especially in Australia. The Australian PM has had cross-party support to resolve this. He even visited Biden personally.

• 50:59Alice Levine?

  So is it as simple as the political winds of change in the way that they did when he was in the embassy? And when the administration changed in Ecuador, his treatment was worse than it had been previously, and now it's in his favour?

• 51:13Matt Forde?

  Yes, so you've got a Labour Prime Minister, a new Prime Minister in Australia, Anthony Albanese. Obviously, some of the voices in favour of bringing Julian Assange back to his homeland would have been on the left. So Julian has now benefited from political changes in the other direction. Julian eyeballs him, still suspicious. How can he trust a system that's kept him captive for 12 years? But his lawyer stays on him, unflinching. Biden wants to draw a line under this before the US election. Julian looks back at the document and begins to read. As he takes in the words, he realises it's real. This is an opportunity that may never come again. It's what he's been fighting for all this time.

• 51:58Matt Forde?

  So even though it goes against every instinct he's ever had, he picks up a pen and signs his name before he can change his mind. The next thing he knows, his handcuffs are removed. An hour later, he's walking across the airport concourse and then running into Stella's arms. He pulls his boys close as a mob of reporters shout questions. He wants to ignore them, concentrate on his family. But then, he remembers who he is. He's Julian Assange. He's a hero, a freedom fighter, a scourge of establishments all over the world.

• 52:39Matt Forde?

  He turns, looks at the cameras, raises a clenched fist high in the air. He is telling them, Julian Assange lives to fight another day. But where that fight will take him, he has no idea.

• 53:02Matt Forde?

  In 2019, Private Manning was subpoenaed by the US government to testify against Julian. When they refused, they were jailed for contempt of court. In 2020, after attempting suicide in prison, Manning was released until their testimony was no longer needed. Since Julian arrived back in Australia on 24th of June 2024, he has kept a low profile. He lives in Melbourne with Stella and their two boys. He's yet to speak about his experience in detail. Assange continues to divide global opinion. To some, he is a man who shone much-needed light in dark places.

• 53:44Matt Forde?

  To others, he remains an irresponsible ideologue who risked lives for his own aggrandizement.

• 53:54Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Kenya Barris.

• 53:55Speaker 08

  And I'm Malcolm Gladwell. We're back for season two of our Audible original podcast, The Unusual Suspects.

• 54:01Speaker 07

  We're bringing you fresh, new conversations from guests like Anderson Paak, David Zedares, Ryan Howard, Rich Roll, Amy Sheldon, and many more.

• 54:07Speaker 08

  Sign up for a free trial to Audible to listen to season two in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 54:15Speaker 09

  Journalist Daphne Caruana Galizia spent her life exposing powerful people. Then, in 2017, she was killed in a car bombing. I'm Stephen Gray, and for the past nine years, I've been trying to find out who wanted her dead. That search took me to Malta through secret companies, organized crime, and eventually to one of the island's richest and most powerful men. Now, after years of waiting, his trial has finally happened. But when the verdict came in, the case took a turn that almost no one had expected. In a brand-new update to the multi-award-winning podcast Who Killed Daphne?, I'm returning to Malta to find out how we got there and where the search for the truth goes next. Listen to the new episode of Who Killed Daphne? wherever you get your podcasts, and you

• 55:00Speaker 09

  can hear the full six-part investigation from the beginning ad-free with Audible. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app and by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 55:18Matt Forde?

  From Wondery and Samusdat Audio, this is the third episode in our series, Julian Assange.

• 55:23Alice Levine?

  A quick note about our dialogue: in most cases, we can't know exactly what was said, but all our dramatizations are based on historical research.

• 55:30Matt Forde?

  If you'd like to know more about this story, you can read Julian Assange: The Unauthorized Autobiography by Andrew Hagan and Julian Assange; Inside WikiLeaks: My Time with Julian Assange at the World's Most Dangerous Website by Daniel Domshiteberg; Readme文文，A Memoir by Chelsea Manning; No Secrets: A New Yorker Essay by Rafi Kachadorian; and you can watch We Steal Secrets: The Story of WikiLeaks, a documentary by Alex Gidney on Amazon Prime.

• 55:58Alice Levine?

  And remember, if you want to get in touch with us with comments, suggestions, complaints about Matt, ideas for scandals, complaints about Matt, etc., then you can email us at [email protected]. British Scandal is hosted by me, Alice Levine.

• 56:11Matt Forde?

  And me, Matt Ford.

• 56:12Alice Levine?

  Written by Wendy Granditer. Additional writing by Alice Levine and Matt Ford. Our story editor is James Maniac. Sound design by Rich Evans. For Samusdat, our producer is Chica Ayers. Our assistant producer is Redsey Bernard. Our senior producers are Jo Sykes and Dasha Lisatsina.

• 56:28Matt Forde?

  For Wondery, our senior producer is Theodora Leludis and our senior managing producer is Rachel Sibley.

• 56:35Alice Levine?

  Executive producers for Wondery are Estelle Doyle, Chris Bourne, Morgan Jones, and Marshall Louie.

• 56:52Speaker 10

  There are books that change how you see the world, and there are books that change how you see yourself. In a new podcast series, a great book with Barack Obama, President Obama sits down with a series of surprising and sharp guests to explore six books that have shaped his life and perspective on the world. From Song of Solomon and the Fire Next Time, to All the Pretty Horses and Gilead, the president is joined by guests like Tom Hanks and Ta-Nehisi Coates to reflect on how these timeless stories shaped his thinking on everything from fatherhood to leadership, and discover together what they tell us about the world we live in and the world we want to create.

• 57:35Speaker 10

  Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of A Great Book with Barack Obama ad-free right now, plus access each audiobook discussed in the series. Download the Audible app today.

• 57:51Speaker 11

  I'm Gemma Whelan, and in the new season of The Spy Who, we tell the story of the original femme fatale, The Spy Who Was Mata Hari. A famous dancer turned World War I secret agent, accused of seducing Allied officers to uncover their plans. But was she a temptress or a scapegoat for French failures? Follow The Spy Who now, wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also listen to the full season of The Spy Who Was Mata Hari, early and ad-free on Audible.