#1135 Liver King On Steroids, Joe Rogan, and Billionaire Status

This episode is with Brian Johnson, aka "Liver King." Through his "ancestral living" lifestyle, he has taken the internet by storm, amassed a large following and built multiple businesses. However, Liver King has been involved in major controversy lately over the discovery that he has taken steroids, a claim that Brian has repeatedly disputed in the past. In this conversation, We dive into all the controversy as well as talk about his life before the "Liver King" persona, how he built his businesses, why focus on social media, and what his plan is going forward. ======================= Exodus is leading the world out of the traditional financial system by building beautiful and user-friendly blockchain products. With its focus on design and user experience, Exodus has become one of the most popular and loved cryptocurrency apps. It’s supported on both desktop and mobile, allowing you to sync your wallet across multiple devices so you can have access to your funds anywhere. Interactive charts let you view an asset’s price history and your portfolio’s performance over time. And maybe the best part, Exodus is integrated with the Trezor hardware wallet - making advanced security easy for everyone. Visit exodus.com/pomp for your free download or search Exodus on the App Store or Playstore. ======================= The number one name in NFT domains and the world’s most powerful wallet are teaming up to bring something new to the crypto and Web3 world: Either sign up for a free blockchain.wallet or visit Unstoppabledomains.com to buy your domain today. ================== With a Messari Pro subscription, you gain access to exclusive industry-leading long-form daily research reports, daily crypto news & insights in your inbox, advanced asset screeners, curated sets of charts and metrics and so much more. Try Messari Pro today! Get up to 25% off their Messari Pro membership by visiting www.messari.io/pro and entering promo code "POMP" at checkout. ======================= Arculus is the next generation crypto & NFT cold storage wallet that combines one of the world’s strongest security protocols with the easiest to use form factor and app. Arculus requires 3-Factor Authentication to ensure only you have access to your digital assets – something you know – a PIN, something you have – the Arculus Key Card, and biometrics. Learn more and buy it now on getarculus.com. Use promo code POMP to save 15%. Remember, with Arculus, it’s your keys, your crypto. ======================= Compass Mining is the world's first online marketplace for bitcoin mining hardware and hosting. Compass was founded with the goal of making it easy for everyone to mine bitcoin. Visit https://compassmining.io/ to start mining bitcoin today! =======================

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. This episode is with Brian Johnson, aka Liver King. Liver King has taken the social media world by storm. He's got a number of massive businesses. He's got a very large following across various platforms, and he continues to promote the ancestral living lifestyle. There has been a ton of controversy around Liver King steroid use and a number of tactics he used to build his audience, and we get into it all. In this conversation, we talk about his life, who he was before the Liver King character, how he built his businesses, why he is doing so much on the internet,

• 0:48Anthony Pompliano?

  and what his plans are moving forward. I continue to seek out anyone who I can have a conversation with, that I can learn from, and that I can gain more understanding from. This conversation was no different. Sometimes it was fun and full of laughs, and other times it was hard, and there were some tough questions. I really enjoyed this conversation with Liver King, and I hope you guys enjoy it as well. After you get done listening, jump on Twitter and let me know what you liked, what you didn't like, what you agreed with, and what you disagreed with. I love the feedback and it helps us get better. All right, here is my episode with the Liver King.

• 1:21Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 1:45Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, guys, bang, bang, I've got the Liver King here. I thought a great place to start was right now, you're like in the shit, right? You've got this massive social media following that exploded over the last couple of years.

• 1:58Anthony Pompliano?

  Allegations came out about steroid use. You're like, yup, I did steroids, I said I didn't, but I did them. And if you open your phone right now, people are saying all kinds of crazy shit. They're saying you're a fraud, you're a liar, you're a scammer, you're... Name your, you know, thing that they could say. What does that feel like psychologically? Like when you open your phone and you're just got like the mob coming after you? What is that like?

• 2:20Speaker 02

  Man, I gotta move forward. You know, what's going on right now, I have to deal with 100% face on, right? I know I always butcher this, but Winston Churchill said something like, you know, when you sense danger, tackle it head on, and then you cut the consequence in half. And this has always been my experience in life. So it's like, let's not spend a minute crying over spilled milk, like what I did was wrong. You know, I immediately apologized to my kids. I've immediately apologized to everybody, you know? I feel horrible about this. I probably regret this more than anything else I've done in my life. Of all the dumb stupid shit I did this, you know? But you know, I feel like a deeper obligation, you say, how's it feel like? I feel like a deeper obligation to really do my job as a CEO of the ancestral lifestyle, not just for me to model, teach and preach this message, but

• 3:05Speaker 02

  we need 100 Liver Kings out there. We need the guys like Ben Greenfield. We need the guys like Andrew Huberman, you know, that are saying the same thing, you know, these nine ancestral tenants, because people are hurting with such depth and desperation that this message has to get out. And so how does it feel? You know, I'm embarrassed about it. I feel like I humiliated myself. I feel like I earned all of it. I deserve all of it. You know, I read the DMs and there's a lot of hate. There's also a lot of support, you know, and guys that have seen the Andrew Schultz podcast flagrant and

• 3:41Anthony Pompliano?

  Schultz isn't funny.

• 3:43Speaker 02

  No, not at all.

• 3:45Anthony Pompliano?

  Akash is funnier than Schultz.

• 3:46Speaker 02

  Oh, that guy, yeah. They're a good team, by the way. I think Akash was actually really coming for me, by the way.

• 3:53Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, he came after me too. Don't worry.

• 3:55Speaker 02

  Okay, good. I'm not alone. And so that, you know, I'm like, I deserve all of it. You know, I deserve all of it and I'm going to handle all of that, you know, right now. And you know what? I just, I really do want to take a second also to tell you thank you, you know, for having me on today, giving me this opportunity. Every Saturday I give this barbarian speech and I say, we do this to honor our earliest ancestors, our recent ancestors, and all of this ancestral heritage in between so that we can be here today, enjoy the spoils of bond world. And what I really mean by that is all that ancestral heritage in between are veterans that have protected the perimeter so that we have the freedoms that we have today, so that we can be on this podcast. So I want to say thank you to you for Your service and protecting the perimeter for us.

• 4:32Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, so when you think through kind of this entire situation, one of the things that fascinates me is you have multiple phases of your life, right? You have kind of your childhood, which I don't think a lot of people understand how tough that was and some of the things you went through. Then you had this, what I'll call almost like a device salesman, you know, phase of your life. Then you guys had the dentistry phase of your life, and then you have what everyone knows now as Liver King. And so maybe let's just go through each phase and kind of get some of the context. I think one of the parts, when I told a couple of friends that I was gonna talk to you, they're like, "Why the fuck would you talk to him? I can't believe you're gonna do this," but whatever. And I said, "Look, I've had people on that folks love. I've had people that I've had conversations with that people absolutely fucking hate."

• 5:15Speaker 02

  PBD told me yesterday, goes, "I've had murderers on here." And I'm like, "Holy shit, okay, you think I feel better now?" You put me in the same context as that.

• 5:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 5:26Speaker 02

  But, yes.

• 5:27Anthony Pompliano?

  But the conversation is important, and part of it is like, you can see things on the internet, you can judge people by 30 second clips on the internet, right? I've been judged by 30 second clips on the internet, and it fucking sucks. At the same time, you sit down and have a conversation with somebody, you understand them. Doesn't mean you're gonna agree with them, doesn't mean you're gonna disagree with everything, but you at least understand them better. So like, take us back, and who were you before Liver King, right? And what is your childhood like? Where did you grow up? What exactly was that experience?

• 5:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was born on a naval airbase in Sabo, Puerto Rico. I come from a military family. My dad had been moved around stationed, you know, from base to base. He died before I have any memory of him. And so I really predominantly grew up in San Antonio. I come from a single mom household where I have an older brother, about two years older than me. I don't know how far back you wanna go, but I think, you know, I'll just say, like, up until about 10 years old, I feel like I had the best, you know, childhood ever. My mom would take us on ski trips. I know she loved us, you know, she, she always complimented us, she always put her arms around us. She gave us incredible opportunities, she gave us lots of freedom, and she also disciplined the fuck out of us too. You know, you think all that's normal, you know, growing up.

• 6:38Speaker 02

  And then you realize, you know what, your parents are just trying to do the best job. Your parent is trying to do the best job they can, and guess what? They probably learned that from their parents too. And so I just remember then around ten or so going to middle school and in the first day of middle school, I got my shit handed to me. And, and you know, I never had anything like that happen before. I mean, I just remember in, you know, fifth grade, it was like, I was king of the mountain. Everything was great, you know, just go to the play. I mean, there's nothing to think about or worry about. You don't measure yourself against anybody. And then the first day of middle school, I mean, everybody was try, I was like going to school with adults. These kids had, everybody had a mustache, had underarm hair. You know, they were twice as big as me and they all spoke a different language. I mean, they all spoke Spanish, you know, and, and I didn't speak any Spanish, even

• 7:23Speaker 02

  though I was born in Sabo, Puerto Rico. Now, I'm gonna listen, I'm not asking for any sob stories, but I was hearing impaired and I had plenty of ear surgeries and I didn't actually speak my first words for, I was in speech therapy forever. And, and so this is why I didn't actually learn Spanish, because they were afraid that I wasn't gonna learn English. So I get, I get to my first day there, this one guy Felix Sanchez, hawks a lookie in his hand, lets me have it, almost knocks me out. First time I'd ever been, you know, handed something like that. But man, this just kept happening and I came home, this, this kept happening the same day. And I, I remember the way I looked, I was a skater at the time, just skateboarding, you know, thinking, oh, this is what people do. But then I get to middle school, there's not one person dressed like me, or that looks

• 8:05Speaker 02

  like me, or that's getting their shit handed to them like me. And, and I, I came home and, and I, I cried to my mom and I said, I'm never going back. And before I could finish the sentence, she, she didn't even listen to the rest of the sentence. She made it so crystal fucking clear that you're going back and that I'm not even gonna listen to anything else you have to say. That's how I remember it. And so I just remember thinking, okay, maybe tomorrow won't be as bad, maybe that's the first day. Every day was like that. Every single day was like that. And somewhere along the way, I remember that one of my mom's boyfriends gave us some heavy downs. And, and the whole time I'd been trying to blend in and, and look more, more like my peers. And I wore these cool red wing boots, these guest jeans, a cool shirt.

• 8:50Speaker 02

  I felt like a million bucks that, this is the first time in like a couple of years going to school, I'm like, oh, I feel pretty good about myself. Later that day, we had gym class and I come back from gym class, all my shit's gone. All my stuff's gone. I told Coach Moberg, hey, all my stuff's gone. He searched the lockers. We never recovered it, you know? And I ended up going home that day and my socks and and somebody else's clothes, some gym clothes. But this continues really all through middle school. Just I had no self-worth in middle school.

• 9:20Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 9:21Speaker 02

  I remember looking in the mirror and I've told this story several times, so people might hear this again. I was just completely embarrassed and ashamed of the guy in the mirror. This this brain and this body, I never stuck up for myself, not one time. And I wish somebody at least told me, hey, man, you gotta at least fight back. You gotta at least take a swing.

• 9:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Why do you think you didn't fight back? Was it something where you thought you couldn't? You thought it's not worth it? What do you think it was?

• 9:44Speaker 02

  You know, from from day one, I saw how giant and powerful everybody was. And then every day, there's bloody fistfights at my school. And a teacher wouldn't dare break that shit up because the teacher gets retaliated on. And so the gym teachers would have to come from five minutes away. And there is, it was the most violent thing. I mean, I I'd never seen anything like that before.

• 10:08Anthony Pompliano?

  So the kids are just fucking going at it at school?

• 10:11Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, these are the days you could wear steel toes to school. Kids carried little three eighty guns. I mean, there were weapons everywhere. There were no metal detectors. There was nothing like this. But there were just bloody ass fights. And so something got imprinted up here, like you don't want any part of that. And so, like I said, I don't know exactly why. I just know, like, I actually didn't have it in me. I'm sure I always did, but I believed I don't even have it in me to push back. You know, so I just retreated and retreated and I took the punches and I took the push downs and, you know, I never used the restroom. Because that's where fucking got, you know, the worst. So I remember holding that shit all day long.

• 10:53Speaker 02

  And and then, of course, like you wouldn't have a sip of water in school, you know, because you're not going to make it any worse. So this is what happened most of my middle school, you know, it was just like. I just felt inadequate. Like, I knew, I knew that the world would be a better place without me.

• 11:06Anthony Pompliano?

  What about your relationship with your brother, right? So I grew up in a family of five boys. And one of the things our parents always told us was like, hey, you five are gonna fight all the time at home. We know that. There's no stopping that. But when you guys leave here, it's you guys versus the world, right? And I remember specifically one situation where one of my brothers, he got his finger broken on the bus. They used to play this stupid game where they would basically turn around on the seats and they would like slap at each other's hands.

• 11:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:31Anthony Pompliano?

  And he ended up breaking his finger pretty bad. And we got home from the bus and, you know, he walks home. He's like, hey, mom, look. And like his fingers like literally, you know, at an angle. And I remember talking to my parents and they were like, immediately, what'd you do? And I was like, what do you mean? I wasn't involved, right? Like, don't get me in trouble over this. And then I go, that's the problem, was you were there with your brother and something happened, but like, what did you do? Did you stand up for him? Did you have his back? Whatever. I remember that moment vividly because it just reinforced this idea of sometimes you just gotta find who are the people who are gonna, you know, you can surround yourself with that always have your back regardless of what happens in the world. So you talked a little bit about your mom, but what about your brother and kind of what was your relationship like him?

• 12:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was two grades above me. So I was in sixth grade, he was in eighth grade. And there was no discussion about anything that happened at school when I came home. You know, there was no message from my mom, you better fucking be there from them. There was no message from my mom, hey, how you doing? Was your second day any better than the first? There was none of that. I mean, from the first day, she made it really clear, I'm not hearing any of this. So there was no more of this shared with her. And so, in her defense, there was no discussion with my brother, you better fucking watch over him.

• 12:44Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 12:44Speaker 02

  And so my brother was, I have no recollection whatsoever, my brother standing up for me or being there for me. You know, I learned these values later. I did end up getting strong. And when I got strong, I'm like, I became the big brother. And there, you know, people would come after my big brother. And then Mark would run to me saying, hey, man, I need your help. And I loved being able to help him. The tables got turned, you know, from working out. So I wish I could tell you that my brother was there for me. My brother wasn't there for me.

• 13:10Anthony Pompliano?

  How old did you start working out?

• 13:13Speaker 02

  I was around eight or nine at the time.

• 13:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, and when you first start, like, are you just doing pushups and situps? Like, what is that?

• 13:18Speaker 02

  My mom's boyfriend at the time gave us his old bench. Yeah, I don't know if there's any irony in this, but he was a pharmacist, a big fucking pharmacist, like six, four, really big. Michael Gleinsner. I don't know, all this might be edited out, but um. He gave me this old bench that was falling apart, rusty as shit, and I went to town on bench press curls. I started getting all the muscle magazines. I would read the exercises I could do. It was one of those old ones that had like the leg extensions of the curls out there. I wish I was doing power cleans and squats and stuff like that. But that's the kind of bench I had. That's the kind of working out I was doing. I really wasn't doing pushups, but I remember. I did have some self-worth back home because some of the other kids up the street, they couldn't bench nearly what I could bench.

• 14:03Speaker 02

  And I knew that I was getting strong, but I also knew at school, any retaliation from me, any standing up from me. You got thirty other people that are coming. And that's another thing that happened at school that I think I left out. The fights would happen, and if the tables got turned for a second, you got twenty other people jumping and that are gonna beat the fuck out of you. And I just remember thinking, man, I don't want any of this.

• 14:23Anthony Pompliano?

  Was the school aware of this stuff happening? Were they trying to stop it, or it was just a situation where like, yo, this happens at our school? We do the best we can, but like, these kids are just gonna beat each other up?

• 14:31Speaker 02

  I think both. I mean, it happened every day. It was part of the culture and I remember.

• 14:36Anthony Pompliano?

  That's crazy, right? Like, to send your kids to school, and if you're aware that there's a chance that they're gonna get in an absolute, you know, face ripping fight every day, you're kind of like, you know, am I doing my kid a disservice to some degree?

• 14:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, that's for sure what happened at my school. And there was a history teacher who tried to break up a fight. And later that day, he got the shit handed to him by the.

• 14:57Anthony Pompliano?

  The kids were beating up the teachers?

• 14:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the teachers know not to break up the fights. The gym guys have to come over, and then nobody's messing with Coach Boburg. And this guy looked like a lineman for an NFL team, but that's what happened. I mean, and I think that's part of the concern. That I was terrified, you know, like, could that happen to me?

• 15:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 15:17Speaker 02

  And so, again, I know how much, there's a great example. This guy Chuck came to school, another white kid like me, way bigger than me, but still, he came to school. And I thought, I'm gonna make a friend. I could do this, and I kind of made a friend. But he starts getting into these fights, and they're bloody as fuck, and he's doing a pretty good job, actually, at these fights. We start making a friendship, but he fought back enough times, they took him in. And then there was him against me and then he picked a fight with me.

• 15:44Anthony Pompliano?

  This sounds almost identical to like prison culture, right? Where basically people set up alliances with each other. And some of it is literally based on race, language, creed, you know, whatever the the kind of way that the population cuts themselves. And then it is almost the most animalistic thing in the world of just like, who has physical dominance over other people?

• 16:07Speaker 02

  It was pretty animalistic and yeah, I I get like, I mean, I tell my kids all the time jokingly. You know, you guys go to jail, you better fucking pick a fight on the first day. You know, and and again, like, I wish, I I wish, goddamn, I wish somebody just told me. I wish somebody told me, man, this is what's gonna happen to you.

• 16:24Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 16:25Speaker 02

  I wish somebody just said, and when it does, you're gonna get your fucking shit handed to you. You're gonna get bloody, but but you're gonna be able to push back and you're strong and and you'll get through it, man. And it's gonna happen five or six times, but you'll get through it and they'll take you in. But nobody told me that. And you know what? I just also want to make it clear that I know we're still talking about this phase. You want to hear about all my phases? But I couldn't be more grateful for for this was my first true rite of passage in life. And I had to figure this out. And I had a little bit of help along the way. One of my, one of my friend's moms knew about someone who challenged me to a fight. And I said, why would I do this? I'm not getting into a fight. Long story short, she mentors me and says, you're strong, you gotta get into this fight. She drives me to the fight.

• 17:04Anthony Pompliano?

  She drove you to the fight?

• 17:05Speaker 02

  She drove me to the fight to fight this guy. This kid had to get in a fight in front of his gang to be initiated into the gang. And so this kid, Chris, with like a bunch of people. And and so anyways, what ends up, I don't know if you want to hear the details of the fight, but I I I found out how strong I was that day. And it had to take all these fucking years to figure that out. It it it took her saying, hey, you're strong, you can do this. Her son Justin's like, yeah, man, you could do this. My brother was around at that time. My brother's like, yeah, man, you could do this too. You guys have no fucking idea. You have no idea because I knew I couldn't do it. But you know what's also cool about skateboarding is like you drop it on a 15 foot ramp with vert enough times and you just.

• 17:50Speaker 02

  Fall and you fall. I mean, imagine throwing yourself off a fifteen foot building, you know, and again, you don't fall fifteen complete feet, but you take enough spills and you're like, oh, I'm gonna be okay. I'm gonna be okay. Enough experience says, um, I can develop high courage and one day I can face danger and I'm gonna be okay. And what ends up happening, you know, through, through, through that fight is I realized like, I actually am strong. Like I looked pretty strong. I actually was strong. I figured out that I was strong. And um, and I actually let him go. I, I, I had him pinned on the ground and I could have done what I needed to do to him. And uh, and you know what? Maybe it's because I didn't have the experience. Maybe it's because um, I looked in his eyes and I saw how pathetic and scared he was.

• 18:32Speaker 02

  And I saw myself in his eyes, uh, and I couldn't strike him. Um, sometimes I think, fuck, like I really regret that.

• 18:38Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 18:39Speaker 02

  That could have changed everything for me. I think it could have, but a lot of people have told me, man, I respect you so much more for not doing that. But again, I, I think this is a rite of passage for me. Um, I wouldn't wish this on anybody, but I ended up figuring it out. And I ended up, I was getting strong the whole time, but man, this happened. I got this fight and I doubled down on working out. I mean, think about this. I'm, I'm some kid at home. I'm working out once a day, but now I'm working out twice a day. And now I'm really learning, you know, doing everything in the magazines. Orange Schwarzenegger was my hero. You know, anything he, he would post at the magazines I was doing. I had all his posters everywhere. Um, and so that, that I think would, unless you want to get into it more, would summarize my ten to fourteen, fifteen year old.

• 19:19Anthony Pompliano?

  What's interesting to me is, uh, a lot of the things you're describing still happen today in schools. But now it feels like, uh, maybe society's changed, maybe the way that people, uh, uh, young kids, because social media or what, I, I don't know what it is. But the, the story that maybe we would have heard twenty, thirty years ago, right, was, uh, if you're a young kid and you're getting your ass kicked at school, if you're getting bullied, if you're whatever, you basically change schools, you stand up for yourself, you work out, you, you do something to try to impact the situation. And it usually was the release of working out or uh, uh, building a friendship with another bully that could, you know, back you up or, or whatever. Now I think a big fear of parents and, and uh, many people in society. Is like that kid who's getting bullied goes and gets a fucking gun.

• 20:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:05Anthony Pompliano?

  And shows up to school and just starts shooting people.

• 20:07Speaker 02

  I want to make a comment about that because um I had my list. And this is, I think, when Jordan talks about, you know, the the young men today. That are hurting and hating and suffering and struggling the most. Um, when you don't have self respect for yourself, which is me. When you don't have any respect from your peers, this is me. There's enough time that goes by where you start to become dangerous to society.

• 20:30Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm hmm.

• 20:30Speaker 02

  Because you can get a gun. All the kids at my school had guns, so I knew I could get a gun. And so I kept a list of the guys that I was going to take care of when I could get myself a gun.

• 20:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm hmm.

• 20:40Speaker 02

  You know, that's how much I hated what was going on. It was like, it was, it was. Either myself, I thought about that myself, taking my own life. Or or figuring out a way to get them. And and so um.

• 20:53Anthony Pompliano?

  And do you think that's just like a a human nature thing, right? Is that like you you eventually reach a a breaking point where you're just like? These people have been fucking with me for so long, I have to do something. Whether it's fight them with my fist, whether it's shoot them or whatever, like, like, why is it that? Even then, when people had guns at school and and it wasn't uh kind of the the environment it is today. The the response, like the the human nature response was exactly identical to what it seems like young kids today are going through.

• 21:23Speaker 02

  I I think that um nothing in life really stands still, you know, uh everything's evolving. And I think that's the evolution of what happens, you know, again, an expert like Jordan Pearson can tell you like the trajectory of that evolution. Um, I I don't know why. All I knew is like, OK, the the hurt and the hate that I had. Um, that this can't continue forever. I mean, I I did this for years.

• 21:44Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm hmm.

• 21:44Speaker 02

  And so um my fifteen year old, actually, uh it was between ten and fifteen. Uh, I was in middle school, so um I think I was in seventh grade, so maybe I was like twelve or something like that. Uh, my bus driver committed suicide. And and at that time, I knew, OK, this is actually possible. Now I could think about this.

• 22:01Anthony Pompliano?

  And the kids were talking about it, like the bus driver committed suicide and like word spread throughout the kids.

• 22:05Speaker 02

  Well, there were so many fights on our bus um that he would have to stop the bus, you know, let's stop fighting. Have to try and, uh, he was a big guy. He was a really big guy. Um, he could break up fights. And then one fight, he had a lot of trouble breaking up and I don't even remember exactly what he did. Um, but I think he got suspended and then the next day the bus didn't come. And then later that day at school, they announced it and they say, hey, we're here to talk about it, you know, kind of deal. Oh my God, like that this can actually happen. I'd never heard of this ever before in my life. Uh, but, but I'd heard of it then. And so I just think that, um, that there is this trajectory, like you, there's only so much of that you could take. Either for yourself, you know, you gotta do something, you know, for, for yourself. But doing it even for yourself is like, I'm gonna take care of these guys.

• 22:50Speaker 02

  You know, and I think that that's an issue like with violence is like people can get a gun today. People can drive a car today, you know, um.

• 22:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, they can use any, any tool that is a part of everyday life and use it as a weapon if they so choose, or if that's what their intentions are.

• 23:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I want to make big this point about the silver lining is, um, you know how much hate that I've received from the beginning of social media? Which is at least 10x right now, but, but when I, when I see this hate.

• 23:15Anthony Pompliano?

  That's shocking that people hated you at all at any point.

• 23:19Speaker 02

  Okay, okay. I'm like, well, is he serious? But the thing is, I know how that feels, you know, like I know exactly how that feels. And, you know, whenever you read a word or, or a text or you hear the words, like it's up to your brain to assign meaning to it. And, and so since the inception of Liver King, whenever I, I got any of those hate messages, I'm like, I know exactly how this person feels. That this was me and this person's hurting the most. And this person is actually why I have this why in the world, because people are hurting at these desperate rates. And I know the solution to get them better. And so I gotta find a way to connect with them, you know, because I'm, if you see some of these messages like, you might think, I can't believe you didn't retaliate with words, you know, like you, you're, and I'm like, and I, I can't tell you how many times I've written back.

• 24:02Speaker 02

  I know how this feels. I know exactly how this feels. And let me tell you, I, I, I agree. Some of what, what you're saying is true, especially right now. The message I'm getting is, I know exactly how this feels. What I did was wrong. I own this. I am sorry to you and I'm going to do everything I, I can do to be better. Please continue to engage with my content. Or some sort of ancestral living so that you can get better too.

• 24:24Anthony Pompliano?

  A lot of that is understanding of the situation, but a lot of it's maturity as well. Right? If if you were getting those messages at 21, I don't know, you you know, you know better than I do. But like, would you be responding the same way?

• 24:34Speaker 02

  Oh, man, you know. Once I finally got strong after I got that fight and I got strong and I realized what I was capable of. This is why I have an obligation now to to do whatever I can to do good because I I did a lot of not good things. For those years.

• 24:50Anthony Pompliano?

  Worst thing you ever did?

• 24:51Speaker 02

  Well, they're all fights, you know, they're all fights and but I mean, there there would be guys that like. I just I I handed it to him.

• 24:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 24:59Speaker 02

  You know, so I mean, but but I mean, I never like sent someone to the hospital.

• 25:04Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. Did you have like almost a redemption arc to some degree?

• 25:08Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 25:08Anthony Pompliano?

  Where where basically, hey, I used to get my shit, you know, beat up and now all of a sudden I'm doing the beatings?

• 25:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, there's these movies. Do you remember Boys in the Hood or Menace to Society?

• 25:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 25:16Speaker 02

  These raised me, you know, and and so the minute I got strong.

• 25:20Anthony Pompliano?

  Classics.

• 25:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, really, and this is when I realized that you don't talk shit about your mom. Like, this is when I started to learn, I think, a lot of really valuable experiences, actually. And and I think that this is one one of the movies, you know, like somebody looked at and they're like, hey, let's take it outside. And I would do that all the time. Be like, hey, man, you got a problem? Yeah, let's take it outside. And and, you know, most of the time, nobody wanted to take it outside. And when we would take it outside, this was an opportunity like, OK, now I'm I'm actually pretty good at this.

• 25:50Anthony Pompliano?

  I'm fascinated by the bifurcation of society because there's a whole bunch of people who think we'd be better off if that was still the way that things worked, right, was basically.

• 26:01Anthony Pompliano?

  Forget what words you put on the Internet, right? If you wouldn't say it to somebody in person into their face, don't say it online type situation.

• 26:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:08Anthony Pompliano?

  And I think it's Mike Tyson's like, hey, people forgot they can get punched in the fucking face.

• 26:12Speaker 02

  And people do this all the time, too, in crowds, you know, because you would think I would get a lot of hate in public. I don't get hate in public.

• 26:18Anthony Pompliano?

  No.

• 26:18Speaker 02

  You know, it's I can't believe how incredible people are and then and then it reminds me. You got a vocal minority here, you know, that are being really vocal because we get out in public and people are amazing. And you can feel their spirit energy in this connection. Every once in a while, you hear somebody mouth something off and it's in a crowd and you're usually going opposite directions. Um, and I would never do anything to them.

• 26:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 26:41Speaker 02

  Like, you know, let them have it, you know, and I've told my kids, um, you guys know how much hate we're gonna get right now. And, and we've not been out and about. Yesterday, we were out and about and just trying to go onto the beach to go swimming as, as a family. Yesterday, by the way, my, my son, Stryker, beat me in a race. It's the first time he's just fucking smoked me physically, athletically.

• 27:01Speaker 02

  And, uh, and

• 27:01Anthony Pompliano?

  Is he on steroids?

• 27:03Speaker 02

  He'll tell you, he'll tell you. He, he stacks the night ancestral.

• 27:09Speaker 02

  But, uh, there was so much love.

• 27:11Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 27:11Speaker 02

  There was so much love and, and again, I, I'm expecting it. I'm expecting to hear it. And again, I'm gonna say, I deserve it all.

• 27:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 27:17Speaker 02

  I, I own all of it, you know, so bring it on. I want them to be prepared. Uh, but it's really interesting and, and I do believe that we would be far better off as a society. Say it to, if, if you're not gonna say it to their face, what do you, what do you think you're doing? You know, what, and what does it actually give you? To do this anonymously on the internet, I'm not, I'm not sure what that accomplishes. Uh, but, but I do know how it feels to hurt and to hate your life that badly. And maybe it makes them feel good for about a second, but obviously nobody's actually getting to the root issue when they do that.

• 27:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. Uh, I think anyone who has any size following on the internet obviously has, uh, uh, people who love them, people who hate them and, and everyone in between. Um, but when you start to think about it as, wow, you really gotta be in a bad place to say some of the things that are said online. Uh, there is this like compassion almost.

• 28:00Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 28:00Anthony Pompliano?

  And, uh, it's hard to have that conversation with people who don't have a big online following because they don't, they haven't seen it. They haven't seen how I think vile and just disrespectful, uh, even sometimes dangerous people can be, right? If you got a, I don't know, maybe more than a hundred thousand followers on the internet, there's, you do it long enough, you're gonna get a death threat. You're gonna get, you know, what, what, whatever the, the worst thing you could think of.

• 28:20Speaker 02

  People send us our, my, my address, you know, they'll, they'll, they'll send the address, I'm coming. My address, you know, my personal address.

• 28:28Anthony Pompliano?

  What do you do in that situation? When somebody says that, you just, you just ignore it or you?

• 28:31Speaker 02

  No, no, normally I reach out to them and I try to, no, we don't, we, there's, we, we got a pack of Dobermans at the house. And we have an arsenal of guns. Out of control, you know, I do believe this is my responsibility to be able to fight, provide and protect my family. So, listen, I'm not saying, hey, come, but if you come uninvited, this doesn't end well. I want to say, I think that maturity started way, way before being able to connect and know what it feels like to hurt and hate your life, because this whole thing started, my business is really as an evolutionary hunter, as an entrepreneur, started because my kids were sick, because they couldn't breathe.

• 29:06Anthony Pompliano?

  What does that mean, they couldn't breathe?

• 29:09Speaker 02

  They were going to the hospital, because they were allergic to things, and they would choke up, they would have anaphylactic shock, and they would turn blue. They were gonna die.

• 29:17Anthony Pompliano?

  First time I have, it's gotta be scary.

• 29:19Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. I mean, but it keeps happening, and every time it's scary, and every time you think, oh, my God, I could lose, but what if my kid wasn't here? What if we didn't have an EpiPen? What if we didn't have all this stuff figured out? There's only so much of that you take. We figured it out through ancestral living. Ancestral living was our savior. You know, this is why we so deeply believe in this. This is why I'll never stop this fight, even if it's not Liver King that leads this charge. Like, I'm gonna make sure there's a hundred other CEOs of the ancestral lifestyle that are preaching that liver is king. I know what that is like to go through that kind of health crisis, and I've always said, what kind of piece of shit am I gonna be if I don't spread this message? If I don't make this my why in the world? So, what ends up happening is, I started a company, and the whole purpose of this company was to advance ancestral living. And we also sold

• 30:00Speaker 02

  some notes to tail nourishment, liver, bone marrow, heart, all this kind of stuff. And a lot of customers would come because they had a health issue. And what ends up happening invariably, you start to get some negative reviews. Hey, I bought this, I thought it was gonna work for this, it didn't work. And they're mad, and I didn't have the money to spend on it, and I think all the reviews are fake and bullshit and all this stuff. And I just started thinking, oh, my God, like, you're just like my boys, you know? I gotta figure out a way to connect with you. Before I even responded to them, I mean, I handled everything in my companies, right? And I knew, I know what it feels like to go to the doctor, and the doctor doesn't listen to you at all, because you're saying the same story. You know, you've been to five or six doctors, they don't want to hear it anymore. You're telling your friends, they don't want to hear it anymore. So, every customer that came to me, you know, like, I know what it feels like, and so I'm gonna

• 30:45Speaker 02

  connect with you, we're going to talk, and before I would even write an email Back, I would always give them a refund. And I always knew, I, the meaning I assigned is they're not really hurting and they're not hating me. Right? They came to me because they were suffering. And we got to figure out a way to get them better. And oftentimes, it doesn't have to do with a supplement at all. Somebody has high blood pressure, maybe they just need to get midday sun. Maybe they just need to take off their shoes and connect with the earth. They need to deepen a parasympathetic bond. You need to put down the damn phone and hold the hand of somebody that you love and take in the sunset. You know, and, and so when you get to nurture them along with these nine ancestral tenants and they see there's no financial incentive for you. And then you say, I think we got the initial product suggestion wrong in the first place. Let me buy you the next couple of months on the house and we'll just see how you feel doing that.

• 31:30Speaker 02

  So I, I think where this initially came from was, um, there is a connection. My kids were hurting. I knew that we were, and I was mad. I was mad, like every fucking-

• 31:39Anthony Pompliano?

  You, you, who you met at?

• 31:40Speaker 02

  All the doctors. You're telling me that all we can do is give them this EpiPen in their leg when they can't breathe. You know, you're telling me, and, and really, even if it wasn't like an acute situation, you could listen to them and, and they weren't breathing very good. You know, even in their sleep, it's like there was wheezing. And so I was bad. And so I think that's where I started to connect with this whole philosophy is, um, I understand that hurt and hate. And they came to us because they were suffering with something. They're still suffering with something. And I do believe that the path forward is ancestral living. I gotta be able to guide you and coach you. And, and once you can see some benefit and value, and invariably, when you do that, this is the most loyal customer on earth, just because you did the right thing. And so I wish it, maybe it's a combination of maturity and experience, but I've been through all that.

• 32:25Speaker 02

  You know, the 10 to 15 year old self, I've, I've been through that. I hated my life. I know what that feels like. Um, when my kids couldn't breathe and they're going to the hospital,

• 32:35Speaker 02

  I hated my life again because it's like, I'm doing this to them.

• 32:39Anthony Pompliano?

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• 33:24Anthony Pompliano?

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• 34:08Anthony Pompliano?

  One of the arches of life is that like you're a kid and then you become a parent. You mentioned earlier that your father passed away before you really ever experienced or had any memories with him. How did he pass away? Or how do you think that situation impacted both in your kind of adolescence, but then also when you became a father?

• 34:25Speaker 02

  You know, I don't know about my adolescence, you know, I have nothing to compare it to. But as a father, like, you know what? I have an obligation to be here. I know ancestral living, these are the principles and philosophies that will enable me to be healthy, to do my job as a dad. I need to be here as a dad. It's one of the reasons that we do a five-day water-only fast once a quarter. I hate doing that. It's, have you ever done it?

• 34:52Anthony Pompliano?

  No. I one time didn't eat food for 24 hours. I thought I was a gangster.

• 34:58Anthony Pompliano?

  I was like, hell, yeah. And then people were like, no, I did five days. But I was like, all right.

• 35:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, every Wednesday and Sunday, I do a 24 hour water only fast.

• 35:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on. Every Wednesday and Sunday?

• 35:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:09Anthony Pompliano?

  For 24 hours, you don't eat?

• 35:10Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 35:11Anthony Pompliano?

  So you only eat five days out of the week?

• 35:13Speaker 02

  Well, if you think about it, on Tuesday, I had dinner. So then all I have to do is get breakfast and lunch on Wednesday.

• 35:19Anthony Pompliano?

  Oh, got it.

• 35:19Speaker 02

  Resume dinner.

• 35:20Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it.

• 35:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so you end up having 24 hours.

• 35:22Anthony Pompliano?

  It's like a busy day, basically.

• 35:24Speaker 02

  It is?

• 35:24Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 35:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. Um, but people are so used to just snacking and feeding nonstop. That they think if they're gonna skip, skip a meal, and a lot of people call it, I skipped a meal and I'm fasting. I don't really call 24 hours fasting even. Uh, but thi- thi- this is a reason why, that to me is effortless, but to do a five day water only fast is not easy. And, and then I would say on day two or three, you know, uh, Leder Queen and I are like, we'll go on a walk, we're holding, and we're like, oh my God, you feel like shit? Yeah, I feel like, oh God, why do we do this? You know why I do this? It's because I grew up without a dad. And I'll be damned if there's something I can do about it. To be there for my guys.

• 35:58Anthony Pompliano?

  What happens to your body when you go through the five day fast? Like, what, what, what's going on physiologically?

• 36:03Speaker 02

  Physiologically, like the benefits or?

• 36:05Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, what, what, why do people say, hey, it's good for you to do or whatever?

• 36:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. Have you ever heard of apoptosis?

• 36:11Anthony Pompliano?

  No. Um, you, you sound like a, like a Wikipedia entry right now.

• 36:14Speaker 02

  No way, no way.

• 36:15Anthony Pompliano?

  What is that?

• 36:16Speaker 02

  I'll, so there's a few benefits and I'll explain some of them. So there's apoptosis, autophagy, metabolic flexibility, uh, something called mitochondrial biogenesis, like, um, apoptosis is when, uh, it's a natural process that, that we would go through, um, our early ancestors with a feast and famine cycle. When you're not eating, apoptosis is a natural process where the cell self, a sick cell will self-destruct.

• 36:36Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 36:36Speaker 02

  And today, we're always feeding ourselves. We don't have that natural process that should be ongoing, which can lead to cell mutations and chronic health issues. So apoptosis is a natural process that should be happening when we don't eat for a few days. So, a- and again, this was something naturally that would happen. Autophagy is like, uh, um, uh, cellular house cleaning. It's like kind of the garbage in the cell. You know, that should be cleaned out, which again, doesn't happen very often unless we fast. Metabolic flexibility, you might know is like, um, if you're not eating for a while, the, then Beta oxidation or living off of kest- ketones and fat instead of being a sugar burner like it allows you to be a lot more metabolically flexible. And then lastly, mitochondrial biogenesis is like, it's all about energy production, right?

• 37:19Speaker 02

  And you're not eating anything. And so now your body starts to say, oh, my God, he's not eating anything. There's a whole lot of other things that that are going on, like our, something called the reverse thyroid goes through the roof. It starts to slow you down and then you start to be able to produce more mitochondria to try and give you more energy. So I'll tell you what ends up happening after a five day fast, like again, the five day fast is horrible. I think there's a lot of incredible longevity benefits that happen, but almost immediately afterwards, the performance benefits are through the roof. Like your brain, you ever seen the movie Limitless?

• 37:51Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 37:51Speaker 02

  It's, I mean, I've never had that pill, but it's like that for a while, you know? And so it feels so good. I'm like, well, I'm gonna do this every quarter. Again, that week is hard. But after a couple of days of recovering, man, you feel incredible. So there's a lot of benefits. Even if you take the benefits out, I think what's most important, what reason why we do it is modern day primitive cultures do it, not intentionally, because they're going on hunts and they're not, they're not getting the kill. Our early ancestors always had these feast and famine cycles. So it's to honor the struggle of our early ancestors, right? And it's to honor these nine ancestral tenants that always enabled us for millions of years to express robust health. We stopped doing this.

• 38:32Anthony Pompliano?

  You work out while you're doing it?

• 38:34Speaker 02

  Not really. I mean, we'll go on long walks. Yeah, but yeah, you try working out on, so on day one, I do what's called a simulated failed hunt.

• 38:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 38:43Speaker 02

  And I think it's pretty natural to what early ancestors would have gone through. You would have gone on a hunt, you would have failed it, you deplete any glycogen in your body. I think the metabolic flexibility benefits will come, I think all the benefits come on sooner if you can do the failed hunt.

• 38:57Anthony Pompliano?

  So on day one. Yeah, like what do you do for a failed hunt? You just go run around in the woods?

• 39:01Speaker 02

  Kinda. Yeah, I mean, it's something kind of intense in a shorter time domain to simulate a failed hunt. Maybe it's just taking like a heavy D ball, which is like a, like a maybe a hundred pound ball or something and doing a whole bunch of ball cleans over the shoulder for 10, 15 minutes running around.

• 39:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Physical exertion to get your energy up and sweat a little bit and then basically say, hey, look, I did some physical activity, but I didn't get any food at the end of it.

• 39:25Speaker 02

  Right, right. And then I would say day two, three and four. Like you don't really have a whole lot, like even if you wanted to, man, you could try and put yourself in the gym and it's just not really working out. I might do a couple of pushups here and there to try and get a little bit of energy, but then on day five, when you're breaking the fast, I'll do a simulated successful hunt and then I'll carry the carcass back. And, and again, I think that this is all evolutionarily consistent with what our early ancestors would have gone through. Um, and it feels good, you know, like if you think about our early ancestors, one day wouldn't have just woken up after five or six days of not eating and not had to put forth any effort. And then they get to eat, you know, like you would have had to put forth some effort.

• 40:03Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, but you just pop in a pop tart in the, uh, in the toaster oven. That shit is good as fuck.

• 40:09Anthony Pompliano?

  So easy.

• 40:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if those guys tried to make me eat donuts the other day.

• 40:15Anthony Pompliano?

  I saw Schultz had the donut. Did you eat any?

• 40:17Speaker 02

  You know what? I call that the sub primal plate, you know, and when I look at that plate and I look at what I get to eat back home, the primal foods that I get, there's nothing more delicious than the primal foods that I get to eat. And we are spoiled. We have Liver King Chef Lionel that makes these incredible meals for us. Like there's nothing you could put in front of, like when I see that plate, I'm like, it looks really interesting, right? Like the way that they try to make.

• 40:38Anthony Pompliano?

  Bright colors, the whole thing, right?

• 40:39Speaker 02

  Sprinkles, I mean, the way that they're pat, all of it. I'm like, oh, they got you. And, and it's crazy that people are buying what they're selling. Um, but yeah, you say pop tart, I'm like, what the hell?

• 40:50Anthony Pompliano?

  So what? You live in, uh, in Texas, right?

• 40:52Speaker 02

  Right.

• 40:53Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. Uh, what I understood, there's a couple of things in, uh, uh, emails and, and, uh, a number of the messages. I watched a number of videos. There's probably more research than I've done for, for a conversation in a while. Cause I was like, oh shit, I don't know anything about this. Let's go get educated. Um, and I'm just going to throw out things that surprised me or, uh, were interesting to me as I kind of watched these. The first is that you live on a pretty big plot of land in Texas and, uh, and one of the emails that you sent, uh, to, I guess it was a doctor, right? Where you're asking for, uh, uh, medical advice and help and coaching and all this stuff. Uh, you talked about everyone comes to you. You don't go to an office or what, what is like the, the work, uh, setup that you've got going on and, and are people just showing up to your house to like do work or what?

• 41:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is really interesting. You ask, um, I know. Probably won't say exactly every phase. We've covered the ten to fifteen year old phase. From twenty to thirty. What was the corporate phase?

• 41:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay. So you wore a suit and tie, went to like a corporate office?

• 41:52Speaker 02

  Well, for, I wore a suit and tie for about five years.

• 41:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 41:55Speaker 02

  And then I wore scrubs for maybe like the next five years. And I didn't see my kids.

• 42:01Speaker 02

  My wife didn't see our kids. And so she put her foot down and she goes, hey, listen, I'm done. We're both providing for the family. I'm not caretaking, I'm not nurturing them, I'm not nourishing them, I'm done as a professional. This is on you. And I'm like, thank, well, actually, at the time, I wasn't like, thank God. Actually, at the time, I was like, you know, trying to twist her, hey, just a little longer, just a little longer.

• 42:24Anthony Pompliano?

  You guys were making like decent money or it was a struggle? What was it like twenty to thirty?

• 42:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, when we first met, I was making about a quarter of a million, she was making about a quarter of a million. When we met, we were making about half a million a year, and this was twenty years ago. So it was pretty decent money.

• 42:38Anthony Pompliano?

  You're bald.

• 42:39Speaker 02

  We did good.

• 42:40Anthony Pompliano?

  What kind of car were you driving?

• 42:43Speaker 02

  Oh, God. I was, I was driving, I was driving a Range Rover, but, but this is-

• 42:48Anthony Pompliano?

  You were fucking bald.

• 42:48Speaker 02

  Let me tell you why it's funny. Let me tell you why-

• 42:51Anthony Pompliano?

  That's the fastest way to figure out, come on.

• 42:52Speaker 02

  Let me tell you why, why this is funny. Because I just met my wife snowboarding. Yeah, she's, she's living in New York, I'm in Houston, and I'm living in like this really big house.

• 43:02Anthony Pompliano?

  Alright.

• 43:03Speaker 02

  It's like a three story house, widening, I mean, you name it.

• 43:06Anthony Pompliano?

  By yourself?

• 43:06Speaker 02

  By myself. And I go, listen, I go pick her up from the airport, we had met snowboard, she goes back home, I go back home, and then she comes to visit me, and I'm thinking, if she comes to visit me, I'm gonna pick her up in my Range Rover, I'm taking her back to my mansion, it's done. Done, right? Anyways, uh-

• 43:23Anthony Pompliano?

  Fuck ancestors, I got a goddamn modern cave over here.

• 43:27Speaker 02

  So this is what I think, this is what I think, and then after a couple of weeks, things are going really, really well. And we get engaged really quickly, we get married, but, but she's got to move to Texas, I say, hey, what kind of car do you want? And she goes, a car, I don't know, I mean, I'll just take the same thing that you have. And I'm like, do you, do you even know what I have? Do you know what that? And here's the thing, it didn't impress her at all because she had no idea. So she ends up having to get one too. She goes, I want what you have in blue. Okay, so what, what ends up happening after that?

• 43:57Anthony Pompliano?

  You had two Range Rovers, so you're definitely ballin'.

• 43:59Speaker 02

  But yeah, well, we, we were doing good. We were doing good. But I would say then the evolutionary hunter entrepreneur side came out almost not too long after we got married.

• 44:10Anthony Pompliano?

  And what, so this is the dentistry, uh, kinda, is that a network? Like, what was this? Cause this is fascinating to me that like, uh, you were doing pretty well, uh, by all measurements in corporate America and, and, and things like that. You all get together, uh, she's a dentist.

• 44:25Speaker 02

  Dentist, yeah.

• 44:25Anthony Pompliano?

  And then you guys build a business, but, um, one of the things, uh, that I've taken away, I've talked to a lot of different people. I am very fortunate, I got a lot of friends that have built massive online followings, whether it's podcasts or emails or fucking social media, whatever. These people are not dumb, right? And it's easy to look and say, oh, look at this idiot, you know, he's just taking photos. Look at this woman, she's just taking a photo, whatever. But like, these people understand stuff and, and I think seeing that you had already built another business that had been quite successful is, you know, a data point of like, you guys understood how business works. And so walk us through just like, what was that business and how exactly did it work?

• 45:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. So she didn't want to work for anybody anymore. And I said, cool, cause you know, like, I know I'm pretty good at what I do. And the kind of commissions I was getting was such a tiny fraction of the sales. I'm like, hold on a second, I'm, I'm doing 30 million in sales and I'm getting, I'm getting this.

• 45:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, what were you selling?

• 45:18Speaker 02

  Uh, uh, medical devices.

• 45:19Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it, okay.

• 45:20Speaker 02

  And, um, and so I said, hey, do you, do you want to do this business? She's like, yeah, let's do the business. Um, I want nothing to do with it. Uh, uh, but I want my own practice. Uh, I'll, I'll be the dentist, you do the business stuff. So we bought this practice for about half a million and then I started figuring out, okay, so how? Um, no, no, no, no, no.

• 45:37Anthony Pompliano?

  How did you structure the deal, you remember?

• 45:39Speaker 02

  Um, we just got a loan from a bank, it was like a seven year. And here's the thing, like, we had never had a note so big in our lives.

• 45:44Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 45:45Speaker 02

  Like, wait, holy shit, we gotta pay $7,000 a month, you know, on this thing. Um, we had never done anything like that before.

• 45:51Anthony Pompliano?

  About to sell the Range Rover.

• 45:53Speaker 02

  Everything was leveraged. We didn't know any different. I mean, everything. And what ends up happening is I'm like, okay, now we gotta make money because now we gotta pay that back. And, and so I started looking at the, the model of the business. And I just spent like a couple of days there and I'm seeing they're referring all these patients out to the oral surgeon, the periodontist, the imaging center, the lab. And you sit there for a day, I'm like, what the hell are we doing? Why are we not doing all of this?

• 46:17Anthony Pompliano?

  So somebody comes into the dentist, the dentist is essentially like the primary care of the, the mouth, if you will. And there's work that's being done there. People are paying or the insurance company's paying for it. But you're saying then, oh, you need additional work. So you would refer it out. And in the legacy model, do you get a referral fee for that?

• 46:36Speaker 02

  No.

• 46:36Anthony Pompliano?

  No. So it's just like, hey, I'm sending you to my friend because they can do the oral surgery.

• 46:40Speaker 02

  You might get a Christmas basket. You might get tickets to go watch a game.

• 46:44Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 46:44Speaker 02

  This is what would happen. And, and, and so you know, who, who really suffered was the patient? Because the patient comes back and the radiographs aren't there or they're fucked up. Oh, hey, I'm really sorry. Got to go back to the imaging center. Um, the, the crown or whatever product you get back from the dental lab, that's fucked up. All didn't fit. Sorry, come back next week. Go back to the dental lab and all this stuff. And like for continuity of care, and this makes sense. Why don't we start bringing this all under one roof?

• 47:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it.

• 47:10Speaker 02

  And, and so, um, we doubled. So that practice was doing about four or $500,000 a year when we bought it. We did 1.2 within the next year and then 2.4 the next year. And then almost five million the year after that. I'm like, you know what? We're pretty good at this, you know?

• 47:24Anthony Pompliano?

  And the growth that's happening there is, uh, you're growing like the primary care business? Or you're bringing in these other components and now it's all that revenue?

• 47:33Speaker 02

  We vertically ingrained the whole thing. Yeah. So now she has every specialist in dentistry working underneath her. We had an imaging center in, in our same building. We bought the real estate. We, we started a dental lab. And so not only are we benefiting from our own, we're, we're referring to ourselves, but now we're getting other places to refer to us.

• 47:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it.

• 47:50Speaker 02

  As well. Um, and so that started to kick ass. Um.

• 47:55Anthony Pompliano?

  What was it called? Like ancestry dentistry?

• 47:59Speaker 02

  Oh, I wish. I wish. If I had the opportunity right now to rename it, it would have been called Strong Jaw.

• 48:05Anthony Pompliano?

  Strong Jaw.

• 48:05Speaker 02

  And that actually is a company that we're launching in the near future.

• 48:09Anthony Pompliano?

  What's fascinating, though, is I actually didn't know this. I was reading a book. James Nestor wrote a book called Breath or Breathe?

• 48:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. And, you know, somebody recommended it to me and I knew it was going to be a good book because literally I was here. Somebody was on the podcast. I had the book. We got in the elevator and he was like, that was, that book was stupid. It wasn't very helpful to me. Like it's, you know, just breathe, right? And we got in the elevator. There's a dude who saw the book and he was like, I was literally just doing breathing exercises. The most amazing book. And I was like, all right, I gotta read this thing. And in the book, they talk about how actually savages have better teeth than the civilized populations. And their whole thing was, you know, soft foods, like all these things I'm sure that you've talked about. And it just blew my mind that like literally the civilized people were actually fucked up more than just people who live naturally.

• 48:56Speaker 02

  You go see modern day primitive culture tribes, their oral health, their dental health is almost flawless. And this is the thing, we believe we're sold this bill of goods. If you brush and floss, this is the oral hygiene hypothesis. If you brush and floss, you're not going to get cavities. Well, our early ancestors didn't brush, didn't floss, and they don't get cavities. Modern day primitive culture tribes, we've been to the Amazon, Africa and Mongolia. We've seen six or seven different tribes. They don't brush, they don't floss, they don't get cavities. It comes down really to about two or three things. One is the nutrition, right? So you have, this is why liver is king, right? You need the fat soluble system, vitamin A, D, K, and some E. So you need to have that fat soluble system, but you also need to have the mechanical loading.

• 49:37Speaker 02

  So if we're eating baby food, we're eating the mushy stuff and you don't have the mechanical loading, you can't just have one without the other. There's some other stuff going on there. Listen, I'm not saying don't brush your teeth. If you want fresh breath, go brush your teeth. But this isn't really fixing the root cause. And so I think over time that this is really what she got fed up about. She's like, I'm not addressing the root cause. I'm just fixing.

• 50:00Anthony Pompliano?

  It's all Band-Aid solutions.

• 50:01Speaker 02

  And, and she starts talking to them about nutrition. Weston A. Price wrote this book, Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, all about this stuff. It's really well documented. And she starts talking to him about, you know, hey, let's get you eating liver. Let's get you having some bone marrow, some egg yolks, some midday sun. And the patients are like, just fix my teeth. You know, just fix my teeth. And then as she starts to say, hey, listen, I'm, I'm done doing all this. She's frustrated. She needs to go be a mom. I start thinking, well, how do we get this kind of nourishment? How do we address the root cause? And, and so that's kind of when a supplement idea came up to me. And I thought, man, this is way bigger than this. Like, look at how we addressed our kids' root cause. There's so much more good we can do, spreading this message. So I think we did a pretty kick ass job in dentistry.

• 50:45Speaker 02

  We, at, at the end of it, we own a $6 million building. She sold the, the practice, which was about a $5 million sale for the practice. So we did a decent job. We struggled a lot through those years. You know, we couldn't make payroll a lot through those years. You know, because we overbought the real estate. But guess what? At the end of it, we own the real estate.

• 51:03Anthony Pompliano?

  Explain, explain overbuying real estate. What, what exactly that meant?

• 51:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, she sold this building at, at the, at this intersection, this really fancy intersection. I don't know if anybody knows Houston. It's called River Oaks. It's, it's like the most affluent neighborhood in Houston. And one day she's like, hey, I want to buy that building. I'm like, okay, let's go see how much it costs. And I think we had like a $300,000 or $400,000 budget. Well, the building was $3 million. Then there's a couple more million to build out. And, and so the bank was dumb enough to loan us the money to buy it. You know, and the confidence of, of the loan, like, well, I gotta keep my job because I, I was doing pretty good. But then we couldn't afford the note anymore. Payroll wasn't working out. And so I had to quit the corporate job to come figure that out. And, I mean, everything was being repossessed. We had everything.

• 51:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Really?

• 51:49Speaker 02

  Oh, the banks are calling. And I'm like, I can't, I tell the front, I can't talk to them on the phone. I gotta go make money. You know, if they want to come visit, they gotta come here. And I'm in crisis mode, right? And, and, and I'm so glad we went through this too, because we figured that out too. You know, if you figure out enough things like that, you have enough rights of passage. I think this is what ends up like really building high courage. Oh, man, we could do anything. So it wasn't smooth sailing, but that's what I mean by we overbought the real estate. We couldn't afford it. We we figure out a way to barely make payroll several times. I mean, several times we just had to get cash advances on the credit cards, right? But after all, the cash advances were done on the credit card to make payroll. You know, then there's something called care credit. We would. We would do that. We would find some way to sell something to get something for for payroll.

• 52:33Speaker 02

  You know, and meanwhile, I thought, oh, God, we're losers. Like, my confidence was really rocked. You know, I thought, oh, we could do a lot of stuff. Maybe maybe I can't do this. Maybe I can't do anything. And then at the end of it, you look like, you know what? We we still got this building. And and now what the building is generating for passive income for the rentals we have is pretty like, oh, we did that. This is what we walked away with.

• 52:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Still own it today.

• 52:53Speaker 02

  We still own it today.

• 52:54Anthony Pompliano?

  So you sell the practice. Is that the first time that you guys put like material money in your bank account?

• 53:00Speaker 02

  Well, it's really funny because of all the debts that we had, you know, like we ended up paying off our debts. So we've I remember we were down to one car and a rental house.

• 53:09Anthony Pompliano?

  Really?

• 53:10Speaker 02

  We we went from the Range Rovers, the big house, all this stuff down to a rental house, and we shared one old white beat up Chevrolet.

• 53:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 53:19Speaker 02

  We didn't really have money to put in the bank.

• 53:21Anthony Pompliano?

  And so when you do that, why jump back in to start another business? Why not go back and say, you know what? I was pretty good at doing the the medical sales.

• 53:29Speaker 02

  I thought about that. Oh, trust me. I I was talking to everybody. Hey, man, you think I should come back? Because I knew that was easy, you know, and I know that you know this, like usually the easiest thing is probably not the best. But then I thought, man, I'm an evolutionary hunter. Like, if I were going to design my next business, what I would make sure is I don't make the same mistakes. I had a brick and mortar, right? That was open from like seven to seven, one location, one little spot. Like, you know what I'm gonna do is I'm I'm gonna figure this thing out. What what's my real why in the world? My kids weren't healthy. We figured out how to get them healthy. How how would I like to sell this, right? I would like to sell it 24 seven, 365 across all continents and 55 countries, right?

• 54:12Speaker 02

  It's always available. And so I started to write this stuff down. I'm like, OK. You know what, I, this is actually my why in the world, you know, and, and I know how to do this. And so, well, I said I knew how, I, I believed we could do it.

• 54:25Anthony Pompliano?

  Figure it out.

• 54:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so it's really interesting. I tried to hire consultants. Hey, how do you start this kind of business? Nobody would help me, you know, and so it's just one fucking step at a time. You know, and it's wild what you could do after five or six steps. And then eventually, you know, we have one product.

• 54:42Anthony Pompliano?

  How, how much of the beginning is like you sitting down, there, there's a story. Scott Adams got a book and he talks about the two different political campaigns in 2016. Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. And, and the way that he positions it in the book is he says that Hillary Clinton was very much, you know, the political machine. And they do all their testing of all the different mottos and messages and all this stuff. And, and they do their focus groups and they get it back and, and they end up coming up with the slogan. I think it was stronger together, right? And the way that it describes in the book is one day Trump walks into a room and they're like, hey, we need a motto. And he like thinks for a second, he's like, make America great again.

• 55:17Speaker 02

  Right? I'll tell you right now, that's me because I, I, my motto is. Fire, fire, fire aim. Fire, fire, fire will aim, right? Like my motto is take fucking massive action at whatever you do. Make all the mistakes, because I make all the mistakes, man. But I course correct along the way. And, and at the end of this, the trajectory, where do you end up? I can't tell you how many brilliant people I know that are still talking about this business idea. But they're still way back here, way smarter, all the financing, financial backing in the world. And, and they're like still at like step two or three.

• 55:54Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 55:54Speaker 02

  You know, so I'm definitely the latter when it comes to that.

• 55:56Anthony Pompliano?

  And I also think it's like an intuition thing, right? Like some people have intuition, other people may have intuition, they don't trust their intuition. And so they do the testing or whatever, and there's arguments for, for both. I don't think either one's like right or wrong. I think it's just you gotta know who you are. So you guys started the business, uh, do you raise capital for it? Do you just like figure out some way to get a website up? Like what, what do you do?

• 56:15Speaker 02

  You know, we, uh, But the sale of the practice, we were able to pay off debts, uh, pretty much. I was able to clear some credit cards. I was able to use $7,000 on a credit card to place a PO. I learned how to, this is before the Shopify stuff. Um, so I, I learned some coding. I learned to make a website. Uh, I, I built it all in, in the kitchen, in our kitchen. I'm making the website. I'm taking the pictures. I did, it's just me, you know, and I'm handling all the emails and, uh, I didn't raise any capital. I, I, I put $7,000 on the credit card. You know, as soon as we started to make some money and I started thinking, oh my God, like this is actually gonna work.

• 56:52Anthony Pompliano?

  So it's pretty much profitable from day one, cause it had to be, it sounds like.

• 56:55Speaker 02

  Um, not really, because, uh, then we're just living off credit cards because, um, it, it actually did so well that, um, and now I gotta place a bigger PO and a bigger PO and a bigger PO and, and, and then you know what? I can't do this by myself anymore. And so I ended up hiring a guy for next to nothing and I, and I remember the resentment, I'm paying you this money next to nothing. It's hardly any money. And I'm not making any money yet. And so, you know, that's what happens, you know, a lot of times in business, at the beginning of businesses, you get paid last. You know, dead last. So that happened, um, I would say it probably took about maybe a year, year and a half, you know, to, to really start to see the profits coming from it.

• 57:34Anthony Pompliano?

  And while you're doing this, you're still into working out, uh, kind of lifting weights, doing all this stuff?

• 57:39Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Um, I've, I've always been obsessed with that. Um, here's the thing, I didn't leave my house for years. I mean, like, I, I wanted, my kid wanted some like workout bar from downtown. I'm like, oh, that's awesome. You want a workout bar? But I can't drive you because all I'm doing is this, you know, from five in the morning to like midnight. This is all I'm doing. You know, customer emails are coming in, people that are sharing their health crisis. And I know I have to be there for them, right? And, and so this is, it's like 20, and, and not only am I handling all of these emails to take care of the customer, um, but then I'm, I'm doing the packaging and then I'm driving to the post office.

• 58:19Speaker 02

  You know, cause it's time for me to go to the post office. Um, it, it's, it's wild. I, I mean, I, this is what I did.

• 58:25Anthony Pompliano?

  People don't realize that this. Structure, this mechanism is like pretty much all these Amazon sellers. There are hundreds, if not thousands or tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, whatever in the United States. And also globally, but in the United States where these small businesses basically exist online. And this is the daily routine of people. They basically get orders, they respond with the customer, they do whatever with their widget that they're selling. And then they either leave it outside for, you know, Amazon or the post office or whatever, or they drive there. And if you go and you stand in a post office in like pretty much any town in America. You will see the small business owners that are selling stuff online, come in, drop stuff off and do it every day, day after day.

• 59:02Speaker 02

  So to answer your question related to working out, I mean, if I had customer emails, there's no way I could go work out. But I had to work out, so I would do whatever I needed to do. And I would say, okay, if I can get caught up to this amount and there's only one or two emails. I'm going to go in there as fast as I can, go get a work and then I would get a couple of mini workouts and doing that. So I was still able to do that.

• 59:24Anthony Pompliano?

  And how big are you at that point? Like, how much do you weigh, you think?

• 59:27Speaker 02

  A hundred and seventy five.

• 59:28Anthony Pompliano?

  Hundred and seventy five pounds. All right. And so as the business starts to grow, this is, I'm assuming we're getting now into like the late two thousand teens or so, kind of twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen, somewhere in that range. You at some point are like, I want to grow the business. So like, let me create Liver King. Or like, well, how does that idea kind of come into your mind before you even do anything?

• 59:47Speaker 02

  So I already had a couple of businesses.

• 59:50Anthony Pompliano?

  So now you've got multiple businesses.

• 59:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm like, you know what?

• 59:54Speaker 02

  I don't know if you've heard this, but the why has been because of my kids, right? And then you realize how desperately people are hurting. And so you've probably heard these statistics, but I just want to say it one more time. Eighty five percent of the population struggles with self-esteem issues. Eighty percent struggle paycheck to paycheck. And you got to figure out, why is that? Why do we spend more money than we make? Right? And a lot of times it's because we're trying to express our worth and value with shit that we buy on a credit card. Right? Instead of going in here and expressing our worth and value. Seventy percent of the population are overweight, half are obese, fifty percent on prescription medicine, forty percent have or will get cancer and twenty percent want to have kids and can't have kids. So and I'm getting all these emails in and I see how desperately they're hurting and how.

• 1:00:36Speaker 02

  They hate their lives and I'm seeing this simple solution ancestral living. These nine ancestral tenants, sleep, eat, move, shield, connect, cold, sun, fight and bond. Somebody comes to us with a neurocognitive issue and they're asking for a product suggestion. I'm like, a product suggestion, you know, have you ever heard of ketosis? Have you ever heard of egg yolks? Have you ever heard of getting the sun? Have you ever heard of these ancestral tenants? Here's what we need to be talking about. And if we can start to ratchet up some health improvements there, then let's start talking about some of the nose to tail stuff that you could be doing. And it's so funny because I can't tell you almost every time they're like, hold on a second. Do you sell sunshine? Are you selling egg yolks? You know what we're doing is we're selling a path to a better life. And when you see that work so successfully in a business, you know what? I gotta do more of this.

• 1:01:19Speaker 02

  And so I opened up more businesses and the goal is to open up businesses that sell ancestral living in every category of business. And so when I talk about Strongjaw, this is the category. It's a dental category. We have a canine category coming up. We have a gut category coming up, a neurocognitive. If I'm going to get this message out, this is one of the hows. So you know the why, this is one of the hows that we're going to do it.

• 1:01:41Anthony Pompliano?

  How many businesses you got today?

• 1:01:43Speaker 02

  About 10.

• 1:01:44Anthony Pompliano?

  10 and how many you think that you can get to?

• 1:01:46Speaker 02

  We're going to get to 100.

• 1:01:47Anthony Pompliano?

  You think you can have 100 businesses?

• 1:01:48Speaker 02

  We're going to get to 100 in every different category. This message is going to go mainstream. And people still go to the dentist every single day thinking that they're going to brush and floss. They have recurrent decay and they can't figure out why do I have the current decay? And guess what? They have much more deep health issues. This is a sign of what's really going on in the rest of the body. This is not okay. We're going to have to change this paradigm. We have to change the paradigm. You know, it's not what how you brush and floss your teeth. This is how we're going to have to educate and it's all nine ancestral tenants. And we're predominantly going to meet people here in this category. And that's going to go in every respective category. So I just want to be really clear. The vision has never stayed changed. We have to acknowledge that people are hurting at record rates. There's a better, simple solution to go forward.

• 1:02:33Speaker 02

  And so businesses are kicking ass.

• 1:02:36Anthony Pompliano?

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• 1:03:19Anthony Pompliano?

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• 1:04:02Anthony Pompliano?

  through December 10 with promo code POMP. Go to Arculus and use promo code POMP today. You went 10 for 10? Or did you have businesses that you tried and they failed? And then you moved on to the next one?

• 1:04:12Speaker 02

  We're 10 for 10.

• 1:04:13Anthony Pompliano?

  10 for 10.

• 1:04:13Speaker 02

  Doing this.

• 1:04:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay. And what's the craziest one that maybe people wouldn't know about?

• 1:04:18Speaker 02

  Well, I don't even know what, how would you define crazy? What do you mean?

• 1:04:20Anthony Pompliano?

  What's the one that you're like, oh, people have no clue that this is even a business that we have?

• 1:04:25Speaker 02

  Probably most of them don't know.

• 1:04:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Most of them?

• 1:04:27Speaker 02

  Here's the thing.

• 1:04:27Anthony Pompliano?

  Let's just go through them. What's the first one? The first one is the supplement?

• 1:04:30Speaker 02

  If it's okay with you, I don't want to promote any of my businesses. If anybody really wants to know, you could go look it up online. But this is getting to your question. The whole Liver King. When did Liver King come in here? Liver King came in because I can't tell you how many people come to Our house and they're like, holy shit, like you guys live this way. And well, this is of course we live this way. Like, how do you live? And time after time, the people be like, dude, you gotta go on social media. You know, time after time, people like, they gotta make a documentary about you guys. The way that you do all nine of these ancestral tenants, like you, you guys are out of a movie. And, um, and so the vision is to raise awareness. People are hurting. Here, here's, here's the data. Right. And here's a solution forward. I'm like, how do I do a better job at that?

• 1:05:13Anthony Pompliano?

  And the way that you live, I think this is the first time I ever saw a piece of content from you was, uh, there was a, a tour of your house. I thought you were fucking crazy, man. Right. I'm telling you that, uh, you, uh, I think you basically start and immediately you're talking about, uh, Faraday bags, grounded, uh, house. Uh, at one point you talked about like the ethernet cords are like unplugged from all the devices. So ju- just like, why is the structure of the home? Forget the workouts, the food, all that, but just like the home itself. What is like the general idea? You're trying to protect like radio waves.

• 1:05:45Speaker 02

  Well, ancestral extended forest shield, right? And, and early ancestors had to shield from lions and neighboring tribes. And the illusion of danger is kind of gone. Like, oh, we're safe. But we're really bombarded with so many horrific things. You had a guest on recently that was talking about, uh, plastics and phytates and how that affects horm- Those are hormone disruptors. Those are all around us, right? But, but a lot of those things that you can see, and there's a lot of data on those things. Uh, we're, now we're swimming in an experiment, non-native EMF. So you come in our house and if you have, we don't want you to bring your cell phone in our house. But if you're gonna bring your cell phone in our house, it goes in a Faraday, uh, container.

• 1:06:20Anthony Pompliano?

  What happened? So I take my cell phone, I put it in that bag. What's that bag doing that, that's beneficial?

• 1:06:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's blocking any input or output fro- from the phone.

• 1:06:27Anthony Pompliano?

  So basically the phone's dead. I can't use it for all intents and purposes.

• 1:06:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right. Uh, same thing with, with wifi, you know, people like, well, how are you gonna do your thing? Do your businesses?

• 1:06:36Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:37Speaker 02

  You ever heard of ethernet? You know how many people have never heard of an ether connection? They're faster, they're more secure, you know, I'm like, um.

• 1:06:43Anthony Pompliano?

  So you have no wifi in the house?

• 1:06:45Speaker 02

  We don't have any wifi in the house. Yeah. So, uh, and again, like all, all this is, um, there's some data on voltage gated calcium channels and how that affects cells and cells can't, um, uh, cell signal to each other. Other to express their their default functions. There's some data on that, but I I would say, listen, um, let's pretend there's not. We're doing an experiment. We've never had non-native EMFs the way we do now.

• 1:07:07Anthony Pompliano?

  What is a non-native EMF?

• 1:07:09Speaker 02

  So there's natural EMFs that come from the sun, that come from solar flares. Um, there there's a EMF pulses that just ha- happened naturally on Earth. But but now everyone in here with a phone has the running an experiment. And look at how many there are. And normally now, like in office buildings and apartments and all this stuff, everybody has Wi-Fi. There's modems everywhere, you know, and EMF-sensitive people can even tell you, here's what I feel from this. And so we built our house as a sanctuary. Like, this is where we're gonna heal, rest, recover, do our best work. I think the sleep environment absolutely needs to be pristine. Most people won't argue about the sleep environment. So we make sure the sleep environment is perfect, and this is how we've built our house.

• 1:07:50Speaker 02

  And it's funny you said these things because, once again, when you live this way, if you were to say, hey, man, describe your house, I wouldn't describe any of that. This is just how we live. So when you're saying this, like, it kind of reminds me how neurotic and obsessive we are. And I'm like, our kids are in here, our kids are developing. You know, it's my obligation to make sure that they have the best shot they can be.

• 1:08:07Anthony Pompliano?

  You have a flip phone or you got a, like a smartphone?

• 1:08:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, I got a regular phone.

• 1:08:10Anthony Pompliano?

  You got a phone? You carry it around or?

• 1:08:11Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:08:12Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, what do you do with it?

• 1:08:13Speaker 02

  Uh, well, so, like, right now?

• 1:08:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, just like, just in an average day, are you carrying your phone around in your pocket? What what are you doing to uh increase the odds that you're living a more healthy kind of ancestral life?

• 1:08:25Speaker 02

  First thing.

• 1:08:25Anthony Pompliano?

  But still have access to it?

• 1:08:26Speaker 02

  Not not, so we have, we have a regular phone at the house. You want to call me, like, there's a landline, you call me on my landline. I just started cracking up because Derek shared my email with the world, getting hundreds of emails from people. And people found my phone number, too. They're they're calling that, too. But but my phone is on airplane mode. I I would say 99% of the time, it's on airplane mode. So it's like, is this a phone? Or is it a Swiss Army knife? And I really use it as a camera. And so I'll I'll record when I need to record from it. I'll take it out of airplane mode, maybe, or I might leave it in airplane mode and just plug in the the Ethernet with an adapter and do what I need to do to upload to social. So I don't talk on my phone, like, my my cell phone.

• 1:09:03Anthony Pompliano?

  You don't talk on, uh, really?

• 1:09:04Speaker 02

  Every once in a while, I shouldn't say. Never. Um, uh, every once in a while I'll have a phone conversation, but the phone conversation should happen on the landline. If that doesn't happen, we're out and about. I'll do a speakerphone and I'll talk for a minute. But you're asking like, where's my phone? My phone's not in my pocket. My phone's like usually, uh, I call them my places, right? Like they're, it's usually in my office or it's in the gym or it's another, you know, place. And so I have a couple of different phones. I just leave there. Like if I need my phone to go record, which is really my camera, that's what I go and get.

• 1:09:31Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it's, it's fascinating. And then you mentioned sleep. Um, what do you do, uh, from like a sleep hygiene or sleep routine? What, what, what does that process look like that you've now found works for you?

• 1:09:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I, I'm so glad you asked because this kind of ties in. Everyone's going to like, most people are like, hey dude, you're so crazy. I'm not going to do any of that.

• 1:09:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:48Speaker 02

  Um, and, and we know that most people won't do that. So what are some things that they can do, you know? And so from a sleep hygiene standpoint, the best way to set up your sleep is by getting early morning sun. Through the eyes on the face on the skin. First thing in the morning, we need to get this exposure, even when it's overcast outside. And two minutes is better than none. Five minutes is better than two. I always say, if you can aim for five to 10, do that. And so first thing you should do-

• 1:10:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Like literally you get up, you go pee and then go outside or you go right outside?

• 1:10:14Speaker 02

  I go outside.

• 1:10:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 1:10:15Speaker 02

  I take a piss on my favorite tree.

• 1:10:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Outside. All right.

• 1:10:17Speaker 02

  Uh, I get the sun on me. I have my bare feet connected to the ground and I'm making a video at the same time.

• 1:10:22Anthony Pompliano?

  So you're sunning your balls in the morning too?

• 1:10:24Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:10:25Anthony Pompliano?

  No, I mean, if you got your thing out, right?

• 1:10:28Speaker 02

  Oh, technically if I'm taking a piss.

• 1:10:30Anthony Pompliano?

  That's what I'm saying.

• 1:10:31Speaker 02

  I, I, I wanted to push back on that because-

• 1:10:33Anthony Pompliano?

  Liver King suns his balls at nine o'clock in the morning or seven o'clock in the morning.

• 1:10:36Speaker 02

  Somebody made a video about this, calling it a tenant to sun your balls and your ass. And I'm like, well, hold on, where did you get that for? I'm like, hey guy, whoever said that, I'm like, that might be your tenant. Let that be your tenant. But like, I just want to make it really clear. This guy has never gone on record saying to do that, but technically, you know, our early ancestors would have had some exposure when they were taking a piss and-

• 1:10:55Anthony Pompliano?

  So you go, but you go outside, you get the sun, uh, early in the morning.

• 1:10:57Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:10:58Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 1:10:58Speaker 02

  That's right. Uh, so, so, so I get that part done. So, uh, in terms of sleep, get early morning sun, through the eyes on the face on the skin, right? You want to finish your last meal three to four hours before bed. And then it's really important to take in the sunset as the final environmental cue that the day is winding down. This is really important. Um, and you don't want to come back in the house to- All the artificial lights. E- e- either you can have those lights off and just have firelight in the house, which I know isn't really practical for people. Or you can put on these UVX glasses that will block a lot of those, those, those lights. And so these are, there's, there's 20, if you want to know all 20 things, you should go to liverking.com. There's a, a nine essential tenants ebook. It's free. There's a lot, but those are the like three or four main things that, that will do.

• 1:11:36Anthony Pompliano?

  But like you sleep, uh, I think in the video, you sleep on like a wood.

• 1:11:40Speaker 02

  Wooden plank bed.

• 1:11:41Anthony Pompliano?

  Wha- what is that?

• 1:11:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, well, today, like, wha- what is it that people sleep on today?

• 1:11:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:47Speaker 02

  You know, when you go visit with modern day permanent culture tribes, there's none of, no, like, look at beds today. They're the perfect height. You just barely fall into it, you know, and you wonder why people keep hitting snooze. They're so comfortable, like they just stay in there. It's like a cast. They have these metal springs that can also conduct ambient electricity. You need to be in this deep parasympathetic state. Again, even if you take this out of the equation, most mattresses are off gassing. You know, and, and you can get an off ga- a, a non-toxic, a non-off gassing mattress. But if you look at modern day permanent cultures, they don't have these beds at this height. They're on the ground. And you have 70, 80 year olds that, that can do full squats, get up and down from the ground without using their hands. If you continue to use that kind of mobility, you won't lose that kind of mobility.

• 1:12:30Speaker 02

  And that mobility also converts a, a balance and agility benefits. So you don't break a hip. Cause you know what happens when you break a hip, man? Like you're almost done. All the comorbidities that happen when you break a hip. These modern day permanent culture tribes are kicking our ass in life. And so this is one of the things that we've learned from them that we took back home. My wife, uh, wanted just to sleep directly on the floor and, and with no padding, nothing. And like, hold on a second. Doesn't seem very evolutionarily consistent. Wouldn't we have some plant material, maybe some dirt, maybe something? And she's hardcore, you know? And so after a year or two of trying that, like I got bone bruises that aren't getting any better. She's like, I love it. I love doing this, you know, like, ah, me. And so, uh, uh, we, we, we got about maybe that much cushion that simulates some, some plant material.

• 1:13:15Speaker 02

  So that's why we, we sleep on the wooden plank bed is because, um, it elevates it a little bit because of humidity. There's no more mold or moisture that creates any ma- massive issues. So that, that's a big deal. And, and like I said, there's like. Twenty things, if you read the ancestral tenants ebook, which is free, you'll see all of them. I think the big things are that most people, because again, people aren't gonna go do that. Almost no one's gonna go and do that. Get early morning sun, finish your last meal three or four hours before bed. Take in the sunset as a final environmental cue and then block the blue lights hopefully with the UVs glasses.

• 1:13:44Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. So you've been living this life, right? And it works for you, it works for your family. There's some people who are like, yep, I agree with everything he just said. And I'm trying to do all of that shit. I got a Faraday bag, I got the glasses, I'm eating liver or whatever. There's other people who are like, bro, shut the fuck up. I'm eating McDonald's and like, good luck, right? And everyone in between. But what I find fascinating about your story is what all the information that's now come out is you basically called your shot on the Liver King thing, right? So I saw some of the emails, Derek from More Plates More Dates published. And I listened to one of the interviews he did with Chris Williamson over at Modern Wisdom. And one of the things in the in one of the emails is basically like, I'm going to get a million followers and I'm gonna do this, this and this.

• 1:14:27Anthony Pompliano?

  And I was like, you know, the crazy part is not that he wrote the shit, that he went and did it. And so forget for a second the steroids and kind of all the controversy and stuff. Talk about the invention of Liver King, right? Because I think that what many people don't understand about the internet is that most of the shit you see on the internet is not real life. Like I always say Twitter's not real life, right? It's like, yeah, you might be using your real name, maybe using your real photo. You may think you don't have, you know, another, you know, character or anything that you're using on the internet. But come on, if I talk to you in person at dinner and I see what you're tweeting, you're a different person on the internet. You drew a line in the sand and you were like, there's me and there's Liver King to some degree. And so like, what was the idea or the strategy?

• 1:15:10Speaker 02

  I would say most of that is to a degree, you know, earlier you said about the email, how do I bring everything to me? You know, I'm really good at focusing. And if you don't have to drive in your car or go anywhere or deal with any bullshit conversations. It's like, you know how much more productive you can be when you know what your roles and goals are. You can say, I'm gonna have a million followers by March 2nd and this is not even a full year. You know, I'm like, I know I can do that. And this, I remember the guys I'm talking to, everyone's laughing. They had to hold their laugh back. They were almost embarrassed. They were laughing in my face. I'm like, listen, I know this is an unreasonable goal. It will take unreasonable things for us to get there, but I know we can do this. I believe in it. And what I need for you to do is not laugh at it, just to say, hey, man, if you're willing to do anything and everything it takes to get here,

• 1:15:52Speaker 02

  we can do that. And so this is why if I need to meet with an accountant, I don't go to the accountant. The accountant comes to me. Same thing with a lawyer, same thing with any meeting that I have, that they all come to me so that I can stay focused on my main roles and goals as a husband, as a father, as a primary role to express my highest, most dominant form as a man, as a CEO of the ancestral lifestyle. And so whenever all this happened, I'm like, okay, this is the goal. And there wasn't really this line in the sand per se. What I said, if I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna call it passive income. You guys are gonna record most of what I do. I sleep, eat, move, shield, connect, cold, sun, fight and bond this way every day. So I'm gonna do this. What you guys are gonna do is keep up with me and record this. Now, is it all 100% like that? I would say there's no doubt there are days where I feel like shit.

• 1:16:37Speaker 02

  And I wake up and I say, good morning, Primals. It's prime time to do this. Like, fuck, I feel like shit, you know? Really, what I need to do is take a cold shower, you know? I think yesterday or today, this is what my good morning primal was like, I don't really feel very good, you know? And I'm doing more of that right now. But I would say, sure, there are some elements to Liver King, the character, but the thing is, most of what we do is really my truest primal, authentic self on there.

• 1:17:06Anthony Pompliano?

  One of the guys on our team always says, like, everything's the WWE, right? Of just like, wrestling is such a good comparison to the rest of the world, because everyone is putting on their face, they're putting on the act, they're doing all of this. And there's positives and negatives to it. Obviously, creating the Liver King character has led to a bunch of positives. We've talked about this ad nauseam, and I think that it's not just around eating certain things or working out or whatever. There's mental health benefits, like all of that. But there's also this danger of audience capture, where all of a sudden, and I've even had it happen to myself, where you're like, the audience expects me to do X. If I deviate from X, they're gonna come for me. They're gonna expose me. They're gonna do this. They're gonna piss me off, you know? Whatever the thing is.

• 1:17:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Have you had that? Like, was it something that you realized like, oh shit, like I have been captured by the audience to some degree? Or is it something that like, maybe now you're realizing?

• 1:17:59Speaker 02

  With steroids or something else?

• 1:18:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Ju- just in general, not even around the

• 1:18:02Speaker 02

  I'll say in general again, like this, this is the relieving thing. It's like, if I'm gonna go on social media, you guys are gonna record what I do. This is how I eat. This is how I live. You know, like, people are especially right now saying Liver King's a character. Um, this is how we live our life. And, and you know what's crazy? This is how Liver Queen lives her life too. We're all eating raw liver and raw testicle and raw bone marrow every single day, you know, and, and all of it's revealed in the stories. I couldn't imagine how exhausting it would be to, I would probably make five, six, seven, eight stories a day. My good morning primals, what I eat, how I work out, the Liver King philosophy, going on a walk. I mean, there's so many things that are in here like, oh my God, what if I, like, I don't know how exhausting that would be if a WWE

• 1:18:45Speaker 02

  character had to do that and how sustainable and scalable. So I'm like, um, I've never really been worried about getting caught.

• 1:18:51Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:52Speaker 02

  Other than what, what's just happened. But in terms of, um, expressing my primal true form, this is what, you know, the, the reason why I came up with the name Liver King wasn't really just to like capture this larger than life character. It's, I gotta get this message across that liver is king. If you don't let, take anything else from this podcast, or when, when, when you meet this guy, it's like, oh, he's, he's talking all this nonsense. Just remember one thing. If you're gonna just do one thing, overlay on top of your, you don't have to change your life, just start eating liver. And when people start eating liver, they feel the difference. And so this is the message I wanted to get across. And normally I say, Liver King here, here's what Liver King's having for dinner, Liver King out. And I've said it three times and somewhere in there I always say, because liver is king. And that's, and now when I meet people all over the place, like, hey, Liver King, let's do this thing. And I'm like, hold

• 1:19:37Speaker 02

  on, hold on. Why is my name Liver King? Let's talk about that. Do you know why? And impressively, a lot of people know why, but thank God. And then I say, are you eating it? Well, most of the time they're not like, well, if all I'm doing is entertaining you, then I'm failing you. You have to be eating it. And then I go home and I figure out, how do I get people to connect more deeply with this message so that it can change and impact their life? I know I've said a lot there, but I would say that I never really drew a line in the sense that, okay, here's Brian Johnson and here's Liver King. It really has been like, okay, we're going to record the way that I live my life. I do these crazy workouts. I eat these crazy things. I sleep this way. We live this way. And so the nice thing is, it really hasn't been exhausting.

• 1:20:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Could you have gotten as big on social media if you did it under Brian Johnson?

• 1:20:21Speaker 02

  The name?

• 1:20:21Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. Or do you think that, do you think the, the branding, the like, the character, right? Even though it is a reflection of what you do every day, was important to get the social following?

• 1:20:31Speaker 02

  You know, so before social following, I had a beard. Before social following, I didn't wear a shirt. You know, before social following, like, I looked, spoke, talk like this guy, you know? And, and so.

• 1:20:47Anthony Pompliano?

  You scared of shirts?

• 1:20:50Speaker 02

  Well, you know what? I'm scared of not getting sun, you know? And, and also, I think it's, it is important to know, you know, again, like before social, I didn't wear a shirt. So now I'm going on social and I'm wearing a shirt. Now, actually, I'm playing a character, you know? So I didn't feel comfortable trying to play a character. You know, again, it's like, okay, so now we're recording. Let me, hold on, guys, let me put my shirt on. You know, it was like, I'm going to go do this stuff. You guys just recorded, you know? And half the time, we're Thomas. Thomas is like, hey, I didn't get that. I'm like, he says, can we do it again? I said, no, you gotta keep up with me.

• 1:21:21Anthony Pompliano?

  You don't do, you don't do second takes?

• 1:21:22Speaker 02

  I, I, sometimes I will, but I, you know what? You might call it roid rage. You know, like, I've never had patience. I always say in life, you get what you tolerate, you get what you demand. I demand the most of myself, so I demand the most of the people around me. I don't have a lot of patience. You better keep up with me. And so imagine if I started to say, oh, hold on, you're recording? Let me go put a shirt on. How different would it be if I called myself Brian Johnson, didn't have a beard, and, I don't know, looked like everybody else? Probably pretty significantly.

• 1:21:50Anthony Pompliano?

  Pretty different, yeah.

• 1:21:50Speaker 02

  You know, but, but then I also think about, think about how effortless it is that I get my message across. The name is Liver King because liver is king. That that's if I can do that, you know, I don't know if you listened to the Joe Rogan one with Derek, but in that in that message, Joe Rogan said how great liver is and that he eats it all the time. Derek said that he eats it every day. All I heard was liver is king. That's all I heard. And I'm like, you know how great this is?

• 1:22:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I don't think anyone has an issue with the ancestral living with liver is king. Like, like all those things. I think actually, most people are like, no, he's 100% right on that stuff. It's like 95% of the message people are like, yep, and we need more people doing that. And whether it's you, whether it's Huberman, whether it's, you know, Rogan, whoever, it's like pushing this message forward is 100% what more people need to hear about. We've even had people come on. There's this one guy, Texas Slim. I don't know if you've come across him yet. But he talks all about like how corrupted the food supply system is. And cattle ranchers are basically, you know, the big cattle companies basically got them by the balls, right? And they're making them do things they don't want to do and all stuff. And it's just economics at play. So I don't think any people have a problem

• 1:22:59Anthony Pompliano?

  with that. The steroid thing, obviously, people got a problem with. But I'm gonna do my best to unpack what I think is a nuance here. But I need to caveat with, I don't fucking know anything about this shit. So you're gonna give me a little bit of an education. But when people hear steroids, what I think they think of is Arnold Schwarzenegger. They think of like, you went, you bought steroids in like a back alley, you're jabbing it in your ass, and like, let's see what happens. That is like maybe one extreme, we'll call it the back alley steroid use. Then there is what I think has become socially more understood, acceptable, and maybe talked about, which is like this hormone therapy stuff

• 1:23:41Anthony Pompliano?

  where people are like, yo, testosterone's down a shit ton over the last couple of decades. Why is that happening? And what can men do about it? And so that's maybe like the other end of the extreme. If you had to explain to people that don't understand a lot about steroids or hormones or whatever, like where are you on that spectrum in terms of what you've been doing? Is it just the hormone stuff? Is it somewhere in between? Like, how would you think of that spectrum?

• 1:24:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's been times where it's been in between.

• 1:24:08Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 1:24:08Speaker 02

  And when I tried it in between, this is why I reached out to Derek and that coaching guy, because I needed help because my blood chemistries got fucked up because my lipids got high, my liver enzymes got high. And I did have a clinician monitoring me the whole time. And so, but my clinician, I felt like wasn't as valuable. So I'm like, okay, let me get a second opinion. Let me get a third opinion. Let me figure this out. We came off of some of those other things, which were the Winstrol and the Nandrolone and stayed on testosterone and growth hormone. And then everything looked pretty good. And so technically, I had somebody tell me the other day, hey, man, don't tell people that you're on steroids because what you're on is TRT and growth hormone. You're on HRT, you're on hormone. And I said, listen, you know how, I haven't been forthcoming.

• 1:24:53Speaker 02

  I haven't been honest. So what I need to do now is overshare. I've been on steroids. I'm on steroids now. You know, technically testosterone is a steroid. Growth hormone is not a steroid. It's a peptide hormone. For all intents and purposes, like these are PEDs, right? These are things that help us in the gym, help us to recover, help to build muscle, help to lose fat. Like, there's no doubt that these things, you know, help with that.

• 1:25:15Anthony Pompliano?

  So we draw the kind of line in the sand of like the TRT, the growth hormone, that is more like hormone therapy type stuff that I think people are talking about. Many of the folks who have been talking about you take it, they openly share, you know, pros, cons, why they do it, whatever.

• 1:25:30Speaker 02

  It's important to say that that's HRT. If it's managed in the normal range.

• 1:25:35Anthony Pompliano?

  For those that don't know.

• 1:25:36Speaker 02

  Hormone replacement therapy. If you're above the like, the normal physi, if it's super physiological, well, I think now you're talking like bodybuilder levels or something like that.

• 1:25:47Anthony Pompliano?

  And so this is like Winstrol and all these other things. What is the difference of the impact on the body? Right? So you said when you took some of the other stuff outside of just the hormone replacement therapy that you started to get fucked up, basically.

• 1:25:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Like, why do people take it? And what is the intended outcome when they put that in their body?

• 1:26:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't know why, I can't speak for other people, you know, I'll just say for me, I have to get into the gym multiple times a day. And it's at least two times a day, sometimes it's more times a day. And this isn't like just doing regular workouts, I mean, even when I show on my stories, it's like I only show three or four things that I do. I probably do six, seven, eight things, you know, like I gotta take myself to this point where I know I'm crushing myself, where I'm destroying myself. And it's like, okay, that makes me feel good enough for a while, until I have to do it again. And I have to do that at least, at least twice a day. For me to look at myself in the mirror, like before I go to bed, I sleep good. By the way, I sleep good, and I do have self-worth. But that's what's required of me to have self-worth.

• 1:26:46Speaker 02

  And if I leave out one of those, I don't.

• 1:26:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, how old are you?

• 1:26:50Speaker 02

  I'm forty-four.

• 1:26:51Anthony Pompliano?

  So forty-four, and I'm assuming that like most men, at some point in your thirties, you started to feel like, hey, I can't do the same amount of volume of workouts and intensity that you previously were doing. Is that something that you think hormone replacement therapy, most men in America are going to experiment with and like can get back to?

• 1:27:11Speaker 02

  You know what I hope more than anything is that the first thing they look at are the nine ancestral tenets. These things that our early ancestors have done since the beginning of time. Fifty years ago, we had almost fifty percent higher testosterone. It's really clear things are happening today in the modern world. And if you look at modern day primitive culture tribes that are kicking ass, their neurochemistry is pretty good, I don't know if their hormones have been measured. But you know, the low hanging fruit here really is sleep, eat, move, shield, connect, cold sun, fight. Now, there's work that has to go into that, there's no doubt about that. My hope and goal, like, is people are saying, hey, so you can be an advocate for it now? And I'll say, this is nuanced, you know, for a young person, hell no. You know, there's no place, there's no form of it unless you have hypogonazism, instead of like, instead of, or unless there's like a physiological impairment

• 1:27:55Speaker 02

  for you to produce adequate testosterone, there's no place for it if you're a young person. Now, I think if you're, I don't know, in your mid-thirties, and you know about some of these natural levers, like the nine ancestral tenets, and you're doing this stuff, give yourself that shot. Now, if you're doing this stuff and you still have low testosterone, If you feel like shit, if you look like shit, if you function like shit, go talk to someone who knows your shit. And have that conversation and decide for themselves. Um, there's no doubt that our test, I mean, you, you probably know some of the statistics, right? A lot of it has to do with xenoestrogens and phytoestrogens. And if you just shield properly and get your estrogen exposure down. You know what a difference that makes. If you start sleeping, all of these things make such a big impact on our hormones and our neurochemistry.

• 1:28:36Speaker 02

  And sleep is probably the biggest lever. You start getting early morning sun, you finish your last meal early, you take in the sunset. You block out all these blue lights, blue lights instead of looking at your phone right before bed. And you can do that if you have your, your best glasses on. If you just fix your sleep, your testosterone will go up a ton. Your growth hormone will go up a ton. You know, um, I do think that as we get older, we're not meant to still be in this warrior archetype. Well, we're working out two or three times a day. You know, there's something I'm dealing with internally that I never really faced before. Not until all of this came out, right? And then I said, well, you know what? I gotta do this every day. I gotta get into the gym. When I'm on vacation, I gotta get into the gym. Yesterday, we had a really busy day. I crushed myself in the morning and then we ordered dinner. I'm like, oh, well, guess what?

• 1:29:17Speaker 02

  I gotta go do this thing again before we go and eat. Um, this is again, what I have to do. And then somebody said, well, why do you have to do that? And I, again, I know I'm dealing with this, you know, I think it probably hearkens back to my 10 to 15 year old self. I think it hearkens back to like when I figured out that I, I, I was strong, um, and I doubled down on that. And it's like, okay, before that I felt worthless. And then I figured out, man, if I can do that, I think I'm capable of anything. And so part, so this is what is required of me to feel this way. So to me, it's pretty deep. To me, there's a lot of stuff that I need to do. But I think that there's a time and a place for it. Uh, and, and so I'm glad to be able to talk about it now. I think it's just really important to know. If there's a time and a place and you're trying to do these things naturally, um, how much you want to bet?

• 1:30:00Speaker 02

  Most people will have such a meaningful, this happens every day. I get tons of DMs every day. I felt like shit. I had issues with my hormones and I started following some of these things. And now I feel way better. I'm building more muscle. I'm finally the husband that my wife married. I'm finally the dad that, that my boys deserve because I started doing these fucking things. I'm like, oh God, thank God. So people need to do these. Things because they work. Um, let's say people are doing these things and it's not working out. Go, go get monitored. No matter what, you gotta go to a trained hormone clinician. You just try and go to a guy at the gym, you know, a, a, and you're, you're gonna take something that might not be pure. You know, you might do a whole lot more harm than good and you gotta get monitored.

• 1:30:43Speaker 02

  You know, like for me to figure out my exact dose, I had to get monitored. I have such a specific dose. You know, for me to feel the way, uh, to, to feel good and to make sure it doesn't have an effect on, on my lipids or any other chemistry. I needed the exact dose and I wouldn't know that without being monitored.

• 1:30:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Remember, you're talking to a complete idiot about this stuff. So I'm gonna ask you some basic questions. You just shoot yourself with a needle in the ass? Like, what, like, what is the application process?

• 1:31:05Speaker 02

  I'm glad you're asking because I think one of my sons actually asked, uh, uh, mom that the other day. So growth hormone is right here in, in the stomach or right here on the side. Just, uh, it's, uh, subcutaneous in the fat. Um, and then once a week we do testosterone in the ass.

• 1:31:19Anthony Pompliano?

  In the ass. And like you self.

• 1:31:20Speaker 02

  In the ass cheek, in the ass cheek, just to, so you guys know.

• 1:31:25Anthony Pompliano?

  And, and you're doing it yourself or, or somebody's helping you? Like, how does that work?

• 1:31:28Speaker 02

  Both, you know, sometimes I might do it myself, you know, sometimes I'm like, liver queen, not feeling real flexible today. Help me out a little bit.

• 1:31:37Anthony Pompliano?

  And, and then when you do this, uh, in one of the emails, I, I can't remember if it's an email or maybe one of the, uh, conversations. You said that you would take it before you went to work out, right? And so could people go and get this stuff? They do it. Would their bodies change at all? Like if you don't work out, what happens?

• 1:31:56Speaker 02

  There's the overwhelming majority of people that are on hormone replacement therapy and TRT, testosterone replacement therapy. They still look like shit, you know, uh, uh, they might feel better, right? Um, and they might look better. But most people, I mean, I guess it's important to know, if you think you're gonna take that and you're gonna look incredible, like, you got another thing coming. I mean, there's a lot of work that has to go into it. Uh, so, but I, I would say, um, I don't know if you heard, but I'm, I'm gonna peel all this stuff back. I'm not gonna take it anymore.

• 1:32:28Anthony Pompliano?

  You're gonna go completely clean?

• 1:32:29Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:32:30Anthony Pompliano?

  What's gonna happen to your body?

• 1:32:31Speaker 02

  Well, this is, yeah, why I wanted to share this because I hope you'll have me on in a year.

• 1:32:34Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:34Speaker 02

  Um, and, and I'll weigh 15 pounds.

• 1:32:36Anthony Pompliano?

  I'm gonna be bigger than you.

• 1:32:39Speaker 02

  You know, you might be.

• 1:32:41Anthony Pompliano?

  Get the TRT.

• 1:32:43Speaker 02

  You might be, but um, I mean, I know exactly how I looked before.

• 1:32:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:46Speaker 02

  And here's the thing, I bet if you saw me before, you'd probably be like, he looks pretty similar. Most people in the fitness industry know the difference. So we're talking about a 15 pound difference.

• 1:32:57Anthony Pompliano?

  So what, so you weighed like, I think you said 175 at one point earlier, uh, before you took this a year and a half ago, or whatever, about 175 and now you're like 19200?

• 1:33:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm 195. So, so I, I probably am up to one, between 175 and 185 ish, uh, without anything.

• 1:33:14Anthony Pompliano?

  So you lose 10, 15 pounds basically by coming off of it. And then, uh,

• 1:33:17Speaker 02

  And just for the record, um, that, that's when I had reached out to get on Growth Hormone. I had been on some testosterone replacement therapy a couple of years prior.

• 1:33:26Anthony Pompliano?

  This episode is brought to you by Compass Mining, the world's largest marketplace for mining hardware and hosting. With Compass, everyone can mine Bitcoin. You can do it at home or in one of their 23 hosting facilities around the world. All you need to do to start mining your own Bitcoin is go to compassmining.io today. Again, if you want to get into Bitcoin mining, go check out compassmining.io today. And so when you reach out to these people, one of the things that, uh, when I saw the emails, I saw Derek's thing, and I saw podcasts, I was like, oh shit, here we go. He's gonna go, he's gonna go through the fucking wringer. And there's one or two paths that you can choose. You can either, no, that's not true. That's bullshit email, whatever. Or you can just be like, yes, that's true. I'm sorry. Right. Which is how he took.

• 1:34:09Anthony Pompliano?

  How many people did you email before Liver King became a thing? And the reason why that was one of my first thoughts was like, dude, this guy's been living like this for a year and a half, knowing there's fucking emails out there.

• 1:34:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:34:21Anthony Pompliano?

  That disproves something that he is saying on some of the biggest podcasts in the world.

• 1:34:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:34:25Anthony Pompliano?

  So was it just Derek and, and this coach? Or did you email like 200 people and everyone's stupid and didn't check their email?

• 1:34:30Speaker 02

  200 people. No, no, no, no.

• 1:34:33Anthony Pompliano?

  I was like, holy shit.

• 1:34:34Speaker 02

  Just the two of them. Yeah.

• 1:34:36Anthony Pompliano?

  Really? So just those two guys, basically, or, or, you know, very small number of people that you?

• 1:34:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I, I do want to make it clear, I don't think Derek did anything wrong, you know? I, I called Derek almost immediately to say, thank you for doing this. I don't know what good will come of it, but thank you for doing this. I asked him how long it took to make such an incredible documentary. I was really impressed actually, how he put it all together. I mean, the way that he went through the email and read everything I wrote, and the way he laughed at certain things, I'm like, oh, I would laugh at that too. When he laughed at it, I'm like, oh, I said that exactly. And I'm laughing at it too.

• 1:35:06Anthony Pompliano?

  The emails are funny.

• 1:35:07Speaker 02

  I agree.

• 1:35:08Anthony Pompliano?

  Like, I don't know how you were writing them. I don't know if you were like, ready to, you know, put fucking T R T in your ass as you were doing some shit, but like, they were hilarious.

• 1:35:16Speaker 02

  Thank you. You know, um, when, when, when he went over, I'm like, I said all that. And it's me to a T. Like, well, there's no disputing any of this now. And, and there's no doubt, like, I also saw this as a path, you know, to, to me be exactly who I need to be, to express who I actually am. I, I've, I've been honest about everything else. That this one thing, you know, th- this has been weighing on me for a long time. And so I-

• 1:35:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Did you like, go to sleep and you're like, fuck, tomorrow, maybe the day I figure it out?

• 1:35:43Speaker 02

  Oh, no.

• 1:35:43Anthony Pompliano?

  No, no, just, just like, over the year and a half, when you knew these emails were out there? Or did you even forget that you sent them?

• 1:35:48Speaker 02

  I know that a superpower that I have is focus and compartmentalizing. And so this is not a lingering thought that I had. Um, now, I, I refer to him as the clown coach, the, the other guy who I had reached out to. And I, I say that because he made a video, um, saying that he refunded my money, that he's not tech, he was not technically my coach. So if he wasn't technically my coach, was there technically a breach of confidentiality? He's trying to pose these kind of rhetorical questions.

• 1:36:12Anthony Pompliano?

  So you're like, pretty sure he's the one who leaked this?

• 1:36:14Speaker 02

  Oh, he admits it.

• 1:36:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 1:36:16Speaker 02

  He, he says, I'm the guy who leaked it. And I know right now he's trying to save face because he has all of his coaching clients saying, hold on, you're gonna leak my information? You're telling me that what we exchanged is not confidential? And, and so, um-

• 1:36:28Anthony Pompliano?

  Is it clout chasing to some degree?

• 1:36:30Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 1:36:31Anthony Pompliano?

  Like, he wants, he, he wants to be the guy who, like, outed you? Or is it just like, all of the press is good press? Like, what, what do you think is going on?

• 1:36:38Speaker 02

  You know, I'm, I'm not really sure. Um, but I just want to make it clear because we're being honest about everything.

• 1:36:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:44Speaker 02

  He did not refund my money. And I'm not asking for a penny back, actually, okay?

• 1:36:48Anthony Pompliano?

  How much do you think you paid him?

• 1:36:50Speaker 02

  Uh, it was probably like, five or $6,000.

• 1:36:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Oh, okay, alright.

• 1:36:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Um, li- listen, I don't need a penny back. Um, and, and he, he was my coach. And he did send those emails to somebody else. Again, I, I think what he did, there's, there's some issues there. Um, what Derek did to bring all the information forward, I don't think Derek did anything wrong. And there's so many silver linings that have come from this.

• 1:37:12Anthony Pompliano?

  How much money do you think you've spent total on steroids, hormone replacement therapy, et cetera, over your life?

• 1:37:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, there's no doubt it's all comes from the growth hormone because testosterone's like maybe a hundred, a hundred and twenty dollars for like a three month supply. So you take out the testosterone and all I tried was, uh, Winstrol and, uh, uh, enandrolone, uh, maybe twice for the, uh, that, that's dirt cheap too.

• 1:37:37Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 1:37:37Speaker 02

  Um, and so you're looking, you're looking at the growth, the, the, the better question probably is like, how much do you think you spent on growth hormone? Um, growth hormone's expensive.

• 1:37:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Like how expensive?

• 1:37:47Speaker 02

  Uh, well, here's the thing, for me to be in the normal range. So at first it's like, oh, you just need, um, the small dose. So, so here's, maybe it was like $2,000 a month at first. Uh, and so I would go and get tested and nothing would register. No growth hormone, no IGF-1 increase. Um, so it's like, okay, let's double it. Um, and so fuck, now I'm spending $4,000 a month. Um, so we tried doubling it and nothing happened. We tried doubling it, nothing happened. And I'm like, now we're spending all this money and nothing's happening. Um, and my blood chemistry is getting fucked up. I'm getting pretty frustrated. I'm reaching out to Derek, I'm reaching out to this other guy, uh, for help. And, uh, finally we got to a, a pretty high dose. Again, I don't know if you saw the email.

• 1:38:30Speaker 02

  The clinician thinks I'm, I was a hyper non-responder, whatever that means. Um, but it, it took a pretty high dose. So it took quite, the average person would never have to spend this much money on it.

• 1:38:40Anthony Pompliano?

  How much you spend it?

• 1:38:41Speaker 02

  Listen, um,

• 1:38:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Nah, I need a number. Come on. What, what is the number?

• 1:38:45Speaker 02

  It's enough to buy a car every month.

• 1:38:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Fifty grand?

• 1:38:47Speaker 02

  No, no, not, not a 50 grand.

• 1:38:49Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. Thirty grand?

• 1:38:50Speaker 02

  Do you know the number that he said in the email?

• 1:38:52Anthony Pompliano?

  I don't remember.

• 1:38:53Speaker 02

  Okay. So the number I, I think at the time was-

• 1:38:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Like 10 or 12?

• 1:38:56Speaker 02

  Was like maybe 10 to 15,000.

• 1:38:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 1:38:58Speaker 02

  It's a little bit more than that.

• 1:38:59Anthony Pompliano?

  So like 20 grand?

• 1:39:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:39:01Anthony Pompliano?

  You think you spent a quarter million dollars on growth hormone over the last year and a half, two years?

• 1:39:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 1:39:07Anthony Pompliano?

  A million?

• 1:39:07Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, no, not a billion.

• 1:39:09Anthony Pompliano?

  You're saying that like it's crazy.

• 1:39:11Speaker 02

  Well, let me, let me tell you what, what's really incredible about this.

• 1:39:14Anthony Pompliano?

  All right.

• 1:39:14Speaker 02

  Derek shared my email with the world.

• 1:39:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:17Speaker 02

  Right? And so now I have dozens of emails that have come in that say, you know, you're paying double the price.

• 1:39:24Speaker 02

  Because I ain't going to nobody, you know, after I got this locked and loaded. But hey, guess what the world knows? And so now consistently, so many clinicians and hormone clinics have come in and said, boom, here's a new quote. It's half the price. We're also a clinic, endocrinologist, medical director, yada, yada, yada. And so far, I'm like, thank you, Derek, for that.

• 1:39:45Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:45Speaker 02

  You know, but pretty soon I'm going to save a hundred percent. Right now I'm saving 50%. Hopefully soon I'm going to save a hundred percent.

• 1:39:50Anthony Pompliano?

  So basically you spend about quarter million dollars on steroids and got a million followers on social media.

• 1:39:55Speaker 02

  That's really bad to say, quarter billion dollars, but.

• 1:39:58Anthony Pompliano?

  But I mean, it just is what it is, right? Like I don't even think it's necessarily a good thing or a bad thing because there's a lot of people who take growth hormone for medical purposes. They're under the consultation of a physician or whatever. And they're probably spending the same amount of money, right? Or maybe they're spending half of that, but they've done it for five years.

• 1:40:15Speaker 02

  I want to make it clear, very few people will need the amount that I'm taking.

• 1:40:19Anthony Pompliano?

  What do you think the average person, the person who's taking it, all the caveats that they're supposed to take it? The physician tells them to take it, whatever. What do you think they spend on growth hormone? Like maybe 50 grand a year?

• 1:40:28Speaker 02

  Well, first of all, again, keep in mind, I've been a hyper non-responder. And so I think the average person might be closer to a thousand or 2,000 a month.

• 1:40:36Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:36Speaker 02

  So I think we're talking.

• 1:40:37Anthony Pompliano?

  So maybe like 12 to 24,000 or something.

• 1:40:39Speaker 02

  Right, yeah.

• 1:40:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, that was public math. I was pretty good on the fly. All right, I want to talk about one other thing, which is Joe Rogan. A couple of months ago, I think was saying, no fucking way. He's definitely on steroids. Just look at him like, there's no way you can do that, whatever. I saw you get asked about it and you had like very nice things to say about Joe. And I think that you were like, look, I look up to this guy in some form or fashion. I enjoy his content, all this stuff. And you took kind of the high road, I think, in the response. He had Derek, come on. They had a fucking blast. And Joe basically was just like, what are you guys talking about? Of course he was on steroids, right? What is it like, Joe Rogan's got the biggest media platform in the world. He's bigger than all the mainstream media, all this stuff.

• 1:41:25Anthony Pompliano?

  What is kind of your reaction or your thoughts of seeing that conversation happen? And they're talking about you. They're not talking about something you do. They're talking about you. What are you thinking as you're watching that?

• 1:41:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, two things. Earlier, you had asked about like how I'd felt about something and I'll tell you how I felt about that. Initially is, I feel like a piece of shit. You know, this whole time he's been saying this, this whole time I've been lying. So first thing I feel like is a piece of shit. I also just want to make it clear, I'm not asking for any sympathy. I did that. I did all of it. I deserve all of it. I lied about it. I was wrong to do all of that, right? I am sorry for that. That's what I'm sorry for. And then I'm watching the two exchange here. Really, there's one thing that upset me. And it's when he talked about the 4,000 people a day. I'm talking about the 4,000 people a day that kill themselves.

• 1:42:18Speaker 02

  And the 80,000 people a day that try. And the way that he chuckled about that pissed me off. You know, that pissed me off because I think you got such a big platform. You got a responsibility and an obligation to address this. Hate me, think I'm a clown. He's been on this the whole time. But I think he should have paused for a second and said, hold on a second. This is not a conversation about Liver King. This is the second where we're going to say this is a problem. And if you are thinking like this way, you do need to get some help. I was frustrated about that. But then I thought, you know, they talked about Liver King for 35 minutes. I was not physically on the show. And they talked about me for 35 minutes. You know how many times I've been on Joe Rogan's show without actually physically being there? He's talked about, I can't believe it, you know?

• 1:43:01Speaker 02

  And then he said, he's been front row at my comedy. I saw him at the Canelo fight. I've seen him at the UFC. And he's talked about me so many times.

• 1:43:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Are you guys boys? Like, are you friends?

• 1:43:13Speaker 02

  I've never met him before.

• 1:43:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, so you guys never talked before, like in person?

• 1:43:16Speaker 02

  I've always, if I've seen him, I would love to have a conversation with him. You know, again, I think that he, what he's done is incredible. I still hold him in the highest regard. I think he's a giant. He's done something that no- One else has ever done and most of the ancestral tenants he's talking about not in this organized packaged way. But he talks about liver all the time. He talks about thermal pressures and getting cold and sauna all the time. I mean, he talks about virtually all nine ancestral tenants all the time. And so um I'm I'm I'm really just grateful towards the end of that. He's saying how great liver is. The other guy is saying he eats liver every day. And really, when I'm and thank God. I'd already taken this load off me. I made an apology video. I did what I needed to do for me to move forward.

• 1:43:59Speaker 02

  And so now he's just making fun of that with a lot of chuckle and I deserve all of it. The one thing that I think that that I wish he had done better is address the suicide thing in a different way. But other than that, I'm like, hey, I deserve it. I feel like a piece of shit. I own all of it. Bring it all on. Except for that one thing. And then at the end of it, he bookended it with saying, in my opinion, what he said is liver is king. I felt pretty good about that.

• 1:44:23Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I think again, I think most people, all my friends who you've talked to on the podcast, et cetera, is just like. Yeah, ninety five percent of this stuff is like very real and people should know it. They should follow it. They should do all this stuff. Uh, the steroid thing, like I think it's split, actually. Half of them are like. Oh, he told me that uh he didn't take steroids and he did like he lied to me. The other half of them are like. Dude, are you guys fucking kidding me? Like the dude's forty five years old. Like he's ripped out of his mind. Did you think he wasn't on steroids?

• 1:44:51Speaker 02

  Listen, I've gotten so much of that, like, hold on, you guys actually didn't think he was already. But I also still want to own that. A lot of people gave me the benefit of the doubt. A lot of people believed in me. One guy, Joe Aesthetic, believed in me so deeply, he took ten minutes to explain to me and the rest of his community why I'm natural. And that probably tugged at my heart more than anything else because of how much he believed in me. Um, and so I want to take credit for that, you know, um, nobody had deceived themselves. I I did all that.

• 1:45:20Anthony Pompliano?

  How do you balance in your head?

• 1:45:25Anthony Pompliano?

  You create Liver King, you take steroids, you absolutely explode on social media. One thing no one will take away from you is you fucking exploded on social media. You built this massive audience. And again, 95% of the things you're talking about, there's a lot of people with big audiences who are very educated, much more educated than me on fitness and diet and all these things, and they're like, yep, all this makes a ton of sense. And then there is the accusation that some of those people in the audience are going in there buying the supplements, they're doing all this stuff. And to me, I don't think people are dumb enough to actually believe if I take a supplement, I'm going to look like that. But there are definitely people who say, oh, this guy is cool, or this is something I aspire to, right? And so he has a product and I go and I buy it.

• 1:46:10Anthony Pompliano?

  So there's like nuance to it, but how do you kind of think through where maybe the critics are right and maybe where they're not as accurate in terms of your rise as Liver King and the use of PEDs and then like impact on your businesses?

• 1:46:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is really complex. Because overall, we talked about these statistics and how desperately people are hurting. People, the average person today goes to a job that they hate. They come home to a life that they don't love. They sedate themselves with enough screen time, with enough bullshit, that their day's not really meaningful, right? This is my true north. And so the critics, and I should be criticized for so much more than this, but the critics of the ancestral lifestyle, normally what I say is I push back and I say, you had your fucking time. You had your chance. Your ways didn't work. The world is hurting at record rates. I told you all the statistics, none of that's changed, all those are facts. You can't criticize that shit, right?

• 1:47:08Speaker 02

  And you can't criticize what my message is. This is the message of our ancestors, of your ancestors, of what you're trying to critique. And so I would just say, remember that the true north will always remain the true north. You don't gotta buy anything from me, right? You don't gotta follow me, you don't gotta engage with me, but you do have to follow and engage with other CEOs of the ancestral lifestyle, like Ben Greenfield, like Andrew Huberman, like the other people that are advancing this, because most people hate their life. Your life fucking sucks. There's a better life to live. It's called ancestral living. And so the critique about if I benefited... From this message and my supplements, I'm wrong about all that. Again, I deserve all that, you know? And if somebody wants to go, first of all, I hope they don't go anywhere else. Right? But all I care about is, I talk about this all the time.

• 1:47:54Speaker 02

  You gotta get liver in your life because liver is king. Go on a hunt, first and foremost. That kind of connection with the animal and land will do more for you than getting it anywhere else. If you can't do that, go to the butcher. If you can't go to the butcher, go to the, find a way to get liver. There will always be a segment of the population that's gonna say, fuck all that. Give me the pill. Right? You don't gotta get it from any of my companies. Go get the pill. Go get the liver pill from Amazon. Go do your research. Go look at the reviews and go get it from somebody else. Don't, because of me, you can't be disloyal to the fact that this is how bad people are hurting and there's a better way to live. You gotta get this into your life. You don't gotta get it for me. So I would, I would just say, I think that there's, there's truth. There's weight to what the critics have said. I deserve it all. And if somebody, again, I hope they continue to engage with the message.

• 1:48:40Speaker 02

  And all I care about is, go on that hunt. Go get liver. Go do these dying ancestral tenants because the world is hurting and this is a better life to live.

• 1:48:46Anthony Pompliano?

  You've been incredibly, I think, kind to the critics in the sense of, you're like, look, I deserve all this. Is there one critic where you're like, yo, fuck that person? Like, they've just gone above and beyond in the hate and just like coming after you?

• 1:49:00Speaker 02

  You know what's really interesting? My disposition, I don't know if you've heard me talk about this before. I say this to my kids all the time. When, and I alluded to this earlier. When you read text or you hear a word, right? Especially if you hear it like, these are broken down into syllables. These vibrations go into your ear canal. Your, your brain assigns meaning to it. The meaning that I assign immediately is how bad that person is hurting and hating their life. And so I've not gotten upset at anybody. I've never said, hey, man, go fuck yourself. You're wrong about all this. I will say, there's one time. That I felt really frustrated.

• 1:49:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 1:49:36Speaker 02

  And it's with this coaching clown that came up and said all these lies. I refunded his money X, Y, and Z. The silver lining is here. He's not unraveling any of the ancestral tenants. You know, I think he's just trying to save himself and I don't even know why that bothers me. You know, I won't even say his name because I don't want to promote him, you know. But anyone else, you say I've been nice about it. I think I'm glad you're saying that. I'm just being 100% earnest and sincere about it. When this whole thing happened, it's like, okay, what is getting mad gonna do? I did this. Like, if there's anyone to be mad at, you fucking idiot. I mean, I look at myself, you asshole, for about five seconds. And now, guess what, man? You gotta claw your way out of this

• 1:50:20Speaker 02

  because the message is so much bigger than you and your brand. And if your brand is gone tomorrow, I gotta work with 100 other CEOs of the ancestral lifestyle. You know, sometimes people talk about, oh, all this money I make, you know, because I make a lot of money.

• 1:50:32Anthony Pompliano?

  How much you make?

• 1:50:34Speaker 02

  Well, I have three companies that do 100 million plus a year.

• 1:50:37Anthony Pompliano?

  All three do 100 or combined?

• 1:50:39Speaker 02

  And this is what I want to say about that. Okay, what do I do with it? You know what I do with it? I make other ancestral companies. I reinvest that money to make other ancestral companies, other CEOs of the ancestral lifestyle to advance this message, to have 100 ancestral companies in 100 different categories. That's how deeply I believe in this.

• 1:50:56Anthony Pompliano?

  So 100 million dollars in revenue. Hold on a second. This is a big ass business. 100 million dollars in revenue. How many employees do you think you have? Across all the businesses?

• 1:51:03Speaker 02

  50.

• 1:51:04Anthony Pompliano?

  50. I'm asking 2 million dollars in revenue per employee. That's a big, that's a fantastic business. Right?

• 1:51:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:12Anthony Pompliano?

  Is this something that other people can replicate? Or do you think that you have like unique skills and knowledge to be able to do something like this?

• 1:51:17Speaker 02

  You know what, in this mastermind group where very few people have that kind of revenue to employee ratio and then I go, you know, and then I hear how they talk about their employees. And I'm like, that's why, you know, because I think the highest leverage opportunity is to hire true believers. I got into this because of how deeply I believe in this because of my kids, because of how badly people are hurting. I only hire people in my companies that have been through a health crisis, that have recovered their health crisis through ancestral living. And through this whole issue, I I'm the one who has compromised. I've compromised the perimeter. I know that. And that's why like I better do a goddamn good job moving forward. Um, I always say our sustainable competitive advantage is we only hire true believers. We care more deeply and we care more because you know how many people want to go do this for for for money? Of course.

• 1:52:01Speaker 02

  Like, oh, cool. You know, like, do you even know what money is? And I'm like, let's talk about what money is. Money is a proxy for the value that we create in the world. And so all you want to do is go create more of that, but you don't even know why you want to create it. I figured out why I want to create it because my kids couldn't breathe, you know, because of people like Kat, who couldn't have a kid, had infertility issues. And started doing ancestral living. Now she has a beautiful baby. You know, we we have an employee Ben was bedridden. With intractable depression, intractable Crohn's disease and recovered his life and is kicking ass because ancestral living. There's this other kid, Sow, who lost sixty pounds, who's reconnected with the outside world. You see this joy in life. That otherwise wouldn't be possible with ancestral living. So, uh, what I would like to say is, I hope there's thousands of people that replicate this business.

• 1:52:44Speaker 02

  But you better do it by putting the why at the center of of of what you're doing. Because I need everyone. I had one guy come up to me one time. He's like, hey, man, I want to open up a business just like yours. Exactly like yours. Um, a- and I said, cool. Go on. He goes, what do you mean, cool? Like, I'm gonna be your competitor. You think you are going to be my competitor? A- as I said, listen, here's the issue. The world doesn't know about ancestral living. The world doesn't know about organs and glands. If you do a good job. You're my greatest ally in the world. I'll tell you how to do everything. But here's the thing, you don't give a shit about people. And because you don't give a shit about people, you can't do this and you're not the right person. But this is what I need. I need hundreds and thousands of people to say, I want businesses just like you.

• 1:53:26Speaker 02

  But it has to come from in here. Their why has to be probably because they recovered a health crisis themselves or for their family. And then they need to only hire true believers because you hire a true believer, they'll do the work of ten. You, I'm sure you know this. You hired one right hire. It changes your entire company. Imagine if all your hires are the right hire. It changes everything. And so thi- thi- this is, uh, when I say that this is really nuanced and complex, I don't know if you heard my apology video. I said, man. This is complicated as shit to me. And you know how much. Criticism I got, they're like, no, no, it's not. You're either on steroids or you're not. Well, this is one of the complexities, the layers of the nuances. I have all these companies that I've hired with true believers that have come here to do some goddamn good, to make their greatest contribution in the world, and I'm letting them down.

• 1:54:10Speaker 02

  I have compromised the perimeter, but I also say to them, you didn't come here for me. You came here because you had your greatest why in the world. You've recovered this health crisis and now you know that you need to do this with other people. If you're here for me, you're not here for the right reason. There's the door, but, but you're here to do this and I'm going to do anything and everything in my power to help create the right environment, the right culture. And, and I also want to make it really clear, I don't lead any of my companies, you know, I'm, I'm.

• 1:54:35Anthony Pompliano?

  You're not the CEO of any of them?

• 1:54:36Speaker 02

  None of them. They have their own leadership team, their own culture, their own chemistry, their own electricity, their own values. You know, um, I may have helped give a blueprint and an ethos, but I've always said, if it's the same as the way I left it, you guys fucked up horribly, right? Nothing should stay the same. You guys should, should do this thing on your own.

• 1:54:51Anthony Pompliano?

  Anybody quit when all this came out?

• 1:54:54Speaker 02

  Nah, uh, not yet.

• 1:54:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Not yet?

• 1:54:56Speaker 02

  I hope, I, I hope nobody does.

• 1:54:57Anthony Pompliano?

  You think somebody will?

• 1:54:58Speaker 02

  I, I, I know, I know I've made some issues.

• 1:55:01Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:01Speaker 02

  I know I've created some issues.

• 1:55:02Anthony Pompliano?

  People who are upset.

• 1:55:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:55:03Anthony Pompliano?

  I mean, this is, this is like a classic business story, right? It's like there's a leader, whether they're actually running the business or they're, uh, the founder or whatever. They do something. Sometimes it's like super controversial. They get caught, you know, uh, breaking the law or doing something like that. Sometimes it's bad business decisions. Sometimes they say something about politics that has nothing to do with the business, but people don't want to be associated with that or whatever. And then you gotta deal with like, this is like real life shit, right? Now you gotta deal with, yo, I got all these great people that work for me. We got these businesses that are going, fucking turmoil inside, right?

• 1:55:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know, that, that, that's tugs at my heart amongst, you know, like, I would say, I feel like the, the kids that I've let down, that, that's the worst. And then I think about the people in my companies, they move their whole families here, you know? And, and this has been the hardest thing to find are people, people that are true believers, that are capable of doing, you know, what, what they're doing. So, man, I really hope not. Um, and.

• 1:55:58Anthony Pompliano?

  It's possible, but, but you're hoping not. Um, are you a billionaire?

• 1:56:02Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:56:03Anthony Pompliano?

  I'm not. Bullshit. I'm doing the fucking math in my head. I think that you're a billionaire.

• 1:56:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm not.

• 1:56:10Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, well, let's talk about it because you do $100 million in revenue.

• 1:56:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Listen, you can go eat donuts with Schultz, but I fucking do math. Do $100 million in revenue, right? You got 50 employees, you're probably doing 50 plus million dollars in profit, 20 times multiple on that, like you probably are close to a billionaire. And I'm not saying that in like a derogatory way and people may get mad about it, but like in some way, like if you are a billionaire, you've had a fucking run from an entrepreneurial standpoint, that's probably one of the better runs in recent memory for people. And nobody thinks of you that way. Like in some way,

• 1:56:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Liver King is one of the best fucking founders in the world, hiding under everyone's nose. And people will say, oh, he took steroids, he's not a, it doesn't count or whatever, right? Okay, lay all the critiques, but you're a fucking billionaire.

• 1:56:57Speaker 02

  First of all, I'm not.

• 1:56:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, we'll disagree.

• 1:57:00Speaker 02

  I'll also say I'm not really far.

• 1:57:04Speaker 02

  And I hope I, I've never wanted to identify with that, you know? Everything that I've done in business, I did before the Liver King launch. The Liver King is brand new. You know, a lot of people like, oh, Liver King did all this stuff. He made all of his money, you know, from this sort of deception.

• 1:57:19Anthony Pompliano?

  I'm saying throw that out. I'm talking about you as an entrepreneur, forget Liver King, forget the fucking character, all that. I'm talking about if you build businesses that do $100 million in revenue with the employee base, literally for, you could get off the internet tomorrow. That is one of the most impressive fucking entrepreneurial stories.

• 1:57:37Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:57:37Anthony Pompliano?

  In the last decade.

• 1:57:38Speaker 02

  I deserve it. I know I earned it, you know? And I know that I earned it because again, the why in the world, what we're doing. And this is why I welcome everyone to continue to do it. I don't need more money. This is why more money is going into doing 100 of these businesses. Because that's the only thing I care about is advancing this message, making sure people acknowledge it how desperately people are hurting and that there's a simple solution to a better life. And but the only pushback I want to give is just to remember, you said Liver King aside, right? But Liver King's only been here for a year, a year and a couple of months, right? And so if we had the same discussion about how much money we're making a year and a couple of months ago, it's not that different. It's not that different. Liver King was strong. My companies were strong before Liver King. My companies will continue to be strong after Liver King.

• 1:58:25Anthony Pompliano?

  You mentioned employees, obviously there's some things you gotta work through. Partnerships, things like that have other people had issues as well? Or is this more of a, your employees are somebody that you trust? They join because they're true believers, things like that. But the partners are like, hey.

• 1:58:39Speaker 02

  God, you ask all the right questions.

• 1:58:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Our sales fucking flying off the shelf or not?

• 1:58:42Speaker 02

  I was really hoping you weren't asking this one.

• 1:58:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Bro, you come out, that's what I do for a living. Of course I'm gonna ask this shit.

• 1:58:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you're like, okay, let me do the math. He knows. There's one partnership that might not withstand this storm.

• 1:58:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. And it's more so they just wanna distance themselves from controversy in general? I'm assuming?

• 1:59:04Speaker 02

  You know what? I don't wanna talk about any of the personal things related to that. But there's one, and again, I know I did this.

• 1:59:12Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:12Speaker 02

  And that's actually the hardest thing on me is like, fuck, all this stuff I did could compromise this one incredible, it's not a company. It's like, it's a living, breathing thing where everybody believes in what we're doing. And once again, I gotta be like, I did that. You know, like, you know, you know, when you don't believe what you did was wrong, man, you'll fucking defend it. You will die on that hill. There's no dying on, I can't defend this thing.

• 1:59:41Anthony Pompliano?

  Are you reading my text messages with my wife? I didn't do that, right? No, but in all seriousness, like, I do think that it's easy for people to point and say, oh, you said X, you did Y, whatever. Wrong, I think you've said it's wrong. We can sit here and beat that, you know, till it's dead. But there's also like real life shit that's attached to this. And, you know, I usually see it from the investor seat with companies I've invested in where something goes wrong. And I'm on Twitter, just like everybody else, I'm fucking doom scrolling, usually late at night, right before I go to sleep, like I'm not supposed to. And I'm reading it and I'm like, man, these people are just laying into XYZ person or company or whatever. And I'm like, they got no clue the shit that that person's dealing with right now because

• 2:00:26Anthony Pompliano?

  they got their employees, they got their investors, they got their own fucking families. Like, you start thinking about this stuff and...

• 2:00:32Speaker 02

  That's an interesting perspective. Because of again, of course, I know that.

• 2:00:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:36Speaker 02

  I'm thinking, nobody fucking knows that. And nobody, listen again, I'm not asking for sympathy, but you're the first person who's ever actually said that.

• 2:00:44Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:44Speaker 02

  Uh, the, the, the layers deep that this goes. Uh, my wife and I said a long time ago, we're, I would never go and I would never have a partner ever again. Because in the dental business, we took on a partner. And then the mission that we wanted to drive became convoluted. You know, when you can no longer do exactly what you want to do. And it's not driven by your benevolent principles. Now we got an issue because now it gets driven by an ulterior. I'll just, I'll just tell you, um, okay, she, she wants to give people liver bone marrow and egg yolk. Okay, the surgeon's like, well, hold on a second, you're gonna put me out of business. You know, and he's a percent partner now too. Hey, this isn't okay. I don't, I don't want you telling people how to fix the root cause. And she's like, what the fuck are you talking about? Like, why would I not?

• 2:01:25Speaker 02

  And, and so after that, she goes, hey, anybody you interview, you tell them in the interview. Zero percent equity is on the table and it never will be. And so all my interviews, that's what I shared with people. Well, um, I got softened up and started to believe over time and I don't think anything's wrong about it. I, I, I think that, uh, I, I chose the best partner in the world to do this with. Again, this, this is, this is of my own creation. Um, and, and so I, I know you hear this all the time, but it's like, you, you, you want to go fast, go alone. You want to go far, go together. You can go fast and far with a group of true believers. When you believe that deeply and you got those principles, you've been really public about your why. This is the great thing about like, when you're really public about your why in the world. And you could then only hire other true believers, you can do incredible things together.

• 2:02:09Speaker 02

  So I did that. I'm like, oh, you know, and, and again, there's so many complexities that come into that, that come into play. So there's a lot going through my head right now. You know, and again, I, I listen, I'm, I'm in the middle of it. I'm going to deal with all of it, you know, and, and some people are like, hey, why aren't you doing this? I'm like, listen, do you know how much is going on and what I'm dealing with? And how I'm trying, you know, to, to, to do the right thing here, but there's a lot of moving pieces to it. You're right.

• 2:02:33Anthony Pompliano?

  My last question for you is, uh, Rogan, after, uh, he, he was like, yeah, I told you guys, well, whatever. Uh, he said, uh, he thinks the rocks on steroids. You think the rocks on steroids?

• 2:02:43Speaker 02

  You know, here's the thing.

• 2:02:45Anthony Pompliano?

  No, here's the thing. What? Do you think The Rock is on steroids?

• 2:02:48Speaker 02

  I'm not picking any fights with anybody. I don't think he should have picked that fight either, you know?

• 2:02:56Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, you know, there's bad blood.

• 2:02:58Speaker 02

  Well, how so?

• 2:02:58Anthony Pompliano?

  People forget this, and this is my external perception. When the mob came for Rogan, and I think I told you, and Andrew Schultz was one of the first comedians to stand up and say, hey, I know this dude, you know, whatever. The Rock actually posted initially and said, he's not racist. I know this guy, or something like that. And then the mob came after him.

• 2:03:23Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 2:03:24Anthony Pompliano?

  And he basically backtracked. He was on fucking roller skates. And he was like, oh, sorry. I didn't see the video, or whatever he said. And again, like, I never judge anyone because I don't know, was he getting phone calls from people? Was something going on? Did he see something I didn't see? I have no clue. But there was almost like a retraction, and my guess is that that left a bad taste in.

• 2:03:45Speaker 02

  Wow, I didn't know that. I mean, here's the thing, you know, The Rock, what he's accomplished.

• 2:03:51Anthony Pompliano?

  I think he's gonna be president.

• 2:03:53Speaker 02

  He could be.

• 2:03:54Anthony Pompliano?

  I've been saying this for years now. I think The Rock will be the president of the United States. But if Joe Rogan asks him if he does steroids, then that's gonna be a.

• 2:04:02Speaker 02

  You know, again, I, you don't want to pick a fight with The Rock, literally or figuratively. I mean, this is, this is not the guy, you know? And so I'll just say, I think, I think what The Rock has done has been absolutely incredible.

• 2:04:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:14Speaker 02

  You know, and so is he on, first of all, I don't think he's on steroids. Is he taking any hormone replacement therapy? I don't know.

• 2:04:22Anthony Pompliano?

  What percentage of American men do you think has taken any, any kind of hormone, TRT, GSH, stuff like that? Like, is it like 1%? Or do you think it's like 20%?

• 2:04:33Speaker 02

  I bet it's tiny. I bet it's about 5%. And I think the clinics know that most men, because of the lifestyles that they lead today, because of the things that are within their control, like the non ancestral tenants, they could recover this. But a lot of these clinics know, we got such a tiny fraction of the population that are underserved. I wish the hormone clinics could also get behind this message. It's not real good for business, you know, for the financial piece of it.

• 2:04:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Still five or 10 million men. Yeah, I mean, like just in the United States, you know, you start doing 5% depending on how you want to calculate adults and like all these different numbers or whatever.

• 2:05:06Speaker 02

  I bet if you tested, though, you have such a significant amount.

• 2:05:10Anthony Pompliano?

  That needed.

• 2:05:10Speaker 02

  That needed. Well, I shouldn't say that needed, that need to increase it, find a way to increase it.

• 2:05:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Do it either naturally or.

• 2:05:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I can't believe you tried to make me make an enemy with The Rock. I love The Rock.

• 2:05:21Anthony Pompliano?

  No, no, not an enemy. I mean, look, it's, uh, it is, uh, it's interesting that you said that you wouldn't fuck with them, though, because I seen Joe Rogan do some roundhouse kicks. I won't fuck with Rogan either.

• 2:05:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I still wouldn't fuck with Rogan, you know, it's like, again, you'll never hear me say anything negative about anybody, like, that's not in me. I'm not capable of that. You hear people say, oh, it takes two to tango. Well, guess what? We won't be doing that. I'm not capable of that. I know why you're doing what you're doing. You're hurting. Man, you're hurting and I can see you're hurting, you know, and the last thing you need as a guy to get to now engage with that kind of thing. You know, I still think what Rogan does is incredible. I think what The Rock does is incredible. I don't think anyone should attempt to discount somebody's achievements and go where they're going by saying any of that kind of stuff. If I have the chance to meet either of them, I hope one day that I have the chance to meet with both of them. And have this kind of, to have a great conversation, because man, like you put down the phone and you have, do what we're doing today, like, doesn't that just fill you up?

• 2:06:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:18Speaker 02

  I mean, this is ancestral tenant nine, which is bond. Put down the goddamn phone and just connect with people and to be able to do that with giants like that. PBD said to me the other day, hey man, who do you have around you that's way better than you? And I said, I got people around me. Number one, my wife. Number one, my wife. But now I'm like, I'm looking at him like, well, you, now you, and now you. And I hope to God one day I have Joe Rogan and I hope to God one day I have The Rock, you know, and again, I'm not saying, I was hoping this opportunity would come, but it's come. You know, Derek has helped me face my reality. This is, this is it. And it's also led to some incredible opportunities for me to be as transparent as we have been today about it. And for me to have some of these incredible connections. So I'm filled with nothing but gratitude.

• 2:07:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, well, I appreciate you coming in and talking about it. I think just sitting down, talking to people, you learn so much more about it. And there's plenty of people who will watch this and be like, nope, I still hate this motherfucker. People like I love them, right? And everything in between. And so I'll keep having the conversations. And I'm just thankful for you to come here and I appreciate and I wish all the best to you and and your incredible family who for those that don't know, there's like 17,000 people in this room right now who have been listening this entire time, but but I really appreciate it and we'll definitely do it again in the future.

• 2:07:29Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Thank you.

• 2:07:31Anthony Pompliano?

  Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. I really hope you enjoyed this one. Make sure you're subscribed on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite podcast player. And if you're looking to transition into a brand new job in the Bitcoin or crypto industry, we've got you covered. Head over to thecryptoacademy.io. My team and I have been working with the top HR teams in the industry to develop an intensive three-week training program with over 50 live events. We teach you exactly what you need to know to break into the industry, including live interview prep and resume review. Our students have been hired at over 75 of the world's best Bitcoin and crypto companies. Go to thecryptoacademy.io to learn more. Again, that's thecryptoacademy.io. If you enjoyed today's episode, make sure you share it with your friends and I'll see you all for the next episode.