Pharrell Williams

Pharrell Williams is a Grammy-winning songwriter, producer, and performer. Getting his start in music alongside Chad Hugo as the production duo known as The Neptunes in 1992, Pharrell has produced chart-topping hits for artists including Britney Spears, Justin Timberlake, and Snoop Dogg. He has co-composed the music for the Despicable Me film franchise, including hit “Happy,” which became the best-selling song of 2014 and earned Pharrell an Oscar nomination. Pharrell’s collaborations with Kendrick Lamar, Beyoncé, and Gwen Stefani, alongside his work as a solo artist and frontman for alternative band N. E. R. D., have solidified his reputation as a creative force in the music industry. With 13 Grammy wins and two Oscar nominations, Pharrell continues to progress the sounds of post-new jack swing, R&B and rap, and pop. Currently, Pharrell serves as the creative director of Louis Vuitton, and he has recently announced his role as a co-chair for next year’s Met Gala alongside Lewis Hamilton and Anna Wintour. In October, his animated biopic Piece by Piece, a collaboration with LEGO, premiered alongside its titular song by Pharrell. The film is now available for rent or purchase to enjoy at home. Link here: https://www.focusfeatures.com/piece-by-piece ------ Thank you to the sponsors that fuel our podcast and our team: Athletic Nicotine https://www.athleticnicotine.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Squarespace https://squarespace.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Vivo Barefoot http://vivobarefoot.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA25' ------ LMNT Electrolytes https://drinklmnt.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Sign up to receive Tetragrammaton Transmissions https://www.tetragrammaton.com/join-newsletter

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Rick Rubin?

  Tetra Graham-Atton.

• 0:22Speaker 01

  My agent at the time was just very persistent about me doing a documentary because, you know, somewhere between like six and seven years ago, there was like this whole rage of like A-listers, musicians specifically. They were just doing these documentaries all over the place.

• 0:51Speaker 01

  And the doc space just got like, it just turned hot. He's like, "Oh, man, you gotta do one on your life." And I was like, "My life? No way."

• 1:02Speaker 01

  One, why would I wanna listen to myself speak for an hour? And feel that feeling of listening to a voicemail for an hour? Why would I do that? Like, also, like, I see myself in the mirror every day. And I am not curious or enthusiastic about any of my story, cuz I know it.

• 1:24Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:25Speaker 01

  I know what I did two minutes ago. Two hours ago. Two days ago. Two weeks ago. Two months ago. Two years ago. Two decades ago.

• 1:36Speaker 01

  What am I curious about? I wasn't. And that's a huge issue for me because anything that I do artistically, I need to be curious and I need to feel enthusiastic about what the journey of exploration and excavation is going to be. And I just didn't see that. I just didn't think it would be interesting.

• 2:01Speaker 01

  But he kept pushing and he kept persisting and kept insisting. And then finally, I was like... Man, you really gotta stop asking me about this. And he was like, "Look, you can do it any way you want." And at that point, it kind of like unlocked something. It unlocked a different way or vantage point of looking at the opportunity. So my brother Zane Lowe was like, "Actually, you know, that's when you realize..." He just summed it up so well, and I was like, "Man, what are you, me?" But he was like, "You know, that's when you realize that it was an opportunity that was less about like the reflection of the past, but an opportunity to be creative."

• 2:39Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  And that's literally what I felt. And I just thought, "Okay, well, if I can do it any way I want, I wanna work with Morgan Neville, which we had discussed." You know, he's a really brilliant documentarian. You look at 20 Feet From Stardom. You know, a guy that like realizes that like one of the most powerful entities in a performer's life, you know, especially superstars or the background singers. And to recognize that so well, that really interesting vantage point, enough to even name the film 20 Feet From Stardom. I was like, "That guy's genius."

• 3:22Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 3:23Speaker 01

  And he does it again with, um...

• 3:25Rick Rubin?

  Mr. Rogers.

• 3:25Speaker 01

  Mr. Rogers, the Fred Rogers doc.

• 3:27Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 3:28Speaker 01

  So I'm like, "Oh, I'd give that guy complete autonomy to my story."

• 3:31Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 3:32Speaker 01

  And autonomy to my catalog to use as he sees fit. But I wanna do it in Lego.

• 3:38Rick Rubin?

  How did the Lego idea come?

• 3:41Speaker 01

  I knew that it was... It'd never been done before.

• 3:46Speaker 01

  And if Lego said yes, it was gonna be crazy. All the stuff that we get to put in Lego.

• 3:51Rick Rubin?

  What was your connection to Lego?

• 3:54Speaker 01

  As a child, my earliest, fondest memories of like toys were Lego sets. That's what my parents used to get us when we lived on a federal subsidy, you know, in public housing. Got us Lego sets.

• 4:11Speaker 01

  And I never dreamt...

• 4:14Speaker 01

  That it would turn into this.

• 4:15Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  But at the time, it was like I was grateful for that. And this is way before there were any minifigs or anything. They were just bricks and pieces. And then also, like, right when we decided we were gonna do it, the other thing that made it click for me is that like we had just had, you know, we have four children. We have our 16-year-old Rocket, who was here the last time. He's 16 now. And then we have three seven-year-olds who we had just had.

• 4:45Rick Rubin?

  Three?

• 4:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:46Rick Rubin?

  At once?

• 4:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, three at once.

• 4:47Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 4:48Speaker 01

  And they have had Lego sets, you know, at different points in their lives. So we always get them. It's very generational. And I hadn't thought about all the implications, but I just knew that in my story, if it got objectified, that I might like it.

• 5:11Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  Enough to do it. What I didn't realize is that it objectified it so much that I was able to look at it and appreciate it beyond what I would see in the mirror. When you look in the mirror, most of the time, even when you're very grateful for your life and your existence, and even in your physical form, right? Because not everybody has that. Not everybody is happy with what they were born with, and we have to respect that too. But when you are, it's a thing I don't take for granted. But even when you're grateful for it, you know, you still see your fears. You see your flaws. You see your insecurities.

• 5:55Speaker 01

  You see the guilt and pressure that you feel from people guilt-bullying you into doing things you don't really want to do. You know, like, something your boss may suggest that you really don't want to do, but you say yes to anyway. You give into that guilt-bullying. Or family, or significant other, or community.

• 6:23Speaker 01

  Or even voting party. Like, there's always these pressures, the things that you really don't.

• 6:28Rick Rubin?

  Sense of obligation.

• 6:29Speaker 01

  You know, yeah, obligation that you really don't want to deal with.

• 6:32Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 6:32Speaker 01

  But it's on you.

• 6:33Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 6:34Speaker 01

  And the pressures that come from that. But this allowed me to see beyond all those layers of distraction.

• 6:43Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 6:45Speaker 01

  And insignificance.

• 6:46Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  To see my true soul's purpose. And that is to be liberated.

• 6:55Speaker 01

  Discover the tools of liberation and share them with as many spirits as I can.

• 7:01Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  I mean, when you.

• 7:03Rick Rubin?

  I love that you use the word objectification because typically

• 7:06Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:07Rick Rubin?

  we think of objectification as a negative in our society. But you're describing it as a way to distance yourself and actually see what it is.

• 7:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:18Rick Rubin?

  Beautiful.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  Thank you. Thank you. I mean, that's what happens when you get Lego-fied. You know, there's an objectification to, to you and also to your story. And it makes it very relatable because when you see, when you see Atlanta's apartments in there, like, it doesn't look as heavy as it would have if it was a real live-action documentary.

• 7:41Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 7:43Speaker 01

  That's the power of Lego.

• 7:44Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 7:45Speaker 01

  It allows other people to see things that their prejudices would not allow them to really take in just because, oh, that's the projects.

• 7:55Rick Rubin?

  It's a more poetic interpretation.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 7:58Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:59Rick Rubin?

  And open to, you can see what you want to see in Lego.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:04Rick Rubin?

  So, did you film the scenes, live-action, then make them in Lego? Technically, how was it made?

• 8:11Speaker 01

  Well, what I had said to Morgan when we first worked together, when I first, when I first pitched it to him to see if he would do it, I was like, yo, I want, I want you to shoot this documentary whatever way you want because I love and respect what it is that you've done thus far. I think you're the best.

• 8:22Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 8:22Speaker 01

  At this and you're the perfect person for this. But I want you to shoot it. And then I want you to throw all the footage away, but keep the audio.

• 8:30Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 8:30Speaker 01

  And then I want you to do it and I want us to do it in Lego.

• 8:34Speaker 01

  And he goes, yeah.

• 8:38Speaker 01

  True.

• 8:40Speaker 01

  And it was just that fast. And then he said yes.

• 8:43Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  Then we went to Lego.

• 8:45Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  And they said yes.

• 8:47Rick Rubin?

  Great.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  And then we went to Focus.

• 8:51Speaker 01

  And they said yes.

• 8:54Speaker 01

  And then they went to like Donna Langley over at Universal and she said yes. And so when you think about it, like this film is like the sum of a lot of yeses.

• 9:04Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 9:04Speaker 01

  And when you add them up, you get what Impossible looks like.

• 9:09Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, it's something no one has ever seen before.

• 9:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, especially because I'm black. I come from a marginalized community. You walking in there saying, you know, hey, we're gonna show the projects. And we're gonna make it so that everyone around the world will be able to understand it. They wouldn't get it.

• 9:24Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  But when you just say, hey, I just wanna tell my life story through the guise of Lego because I want it to be relatable to people. Then all the other details get filled in. And then as you're working on it, you realize all these other things that you can like put in there later if you need to

• 9:46Speaker 01

  to make it even more rich, even more details about the life and even more details about like these environments and, you know, it just turned out Morgan really crushed it, you know?

• 9:59Rick Rubin?

  How did you guys get Carl Sagan to be in it?

• 10:02Speaker 01

  You know, I don't know. I mean, we got permission from the family, but I was surprised when he ended up in it. Because I'm such a Carl Sagan fan, you know?

• 10:10Rick Rubin?

  That's why he's there. Makes sense.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's everything.

• 10:17Rick Rubin?

  Is there really a statue of Neptune in Virginia Beach?

• 10:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:22Rick Rubin?

  Really?

• 10:23Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 10:23Rick Rubin?

  Beautiful.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:25Rick Rubin?

  And how important was the beach growing up for you?

• 10:29Speaker 01

  The beach, for me, you know, even though we live like maybe 10-minute walk from the beach, black folks didn't really go to the beach and swim like that. That wasn't like the thing to do. It wasn't that it was illegal. Although Virginia Beach, 10 years before I was born, it's not, blacks were not necessarily welcomed. Blacks would swim in another city in Norfolk, in an area called Ocean View. But Virginia Beach was pretty much like whites only.

• 11:04Rick Rubin?

  But when you were growing up, what was the vibe?

• 11:07Speaker 01

  I think there was residue of that energy.

• 11:09Rick Rubin?

  I see.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  We were welcome to do it. It was open for us to do it, but I don't know if we were necessarily welcomed. You know, even when I did my festival down there, there were like signs that said that if you cursed, you could get locked up. But then we know who was getting locked up whenever they were like cursing out loud down in the oceanfront. You know, or like you could get a ticket or a citation if the top of your underwear or boxers were showing above your shorts or pants.

• 11:42Rick Rubin?

  Really?

• 11:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. We had a lot of that. But the city wanted to do something different, and so when we did our festival, I think it changed a lot of energy down there because we couldn't do it alone. And the 30,000 students that weren't necessarily as welcome before, they couldn't do it alone either. It took everybody coming together and seeing the bigger picture. And I think Virginia Beach has gotten a lot better. It's still got a lot of work to do.

• 12:10Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about the festival.

• 12:11Speaker 01

  Well, that was just it. It was, you know, 30,000 students that would come there every year on Week 17 to blow off some steam right before exams.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  And they weren't particularly welcomed. And that's when like the whole Greek Fest thing happened and the riots and, you know, National Guard and it was, it was a very tough time. And a lot of that residual energy was still laying around. And so they weren't necessarily being as supportive and as welcoming as they should have been to those students. So the chief of police, Chief Severa at the time, he asked me if I had any ideas. And we came up with something in the water and that's, that's where the festival came from. And I know we digressed a little bit, but that was like, it's, I've always just given back to Virginia Beach and given back to the state of Virginia, because that's what made me, good, bad, or indifferent.

• 13:06Rick Rubin?

  In what ways do you feel like Virginia Beach made you?

• 13:09Speaker 01

  There wasn't a blossoming music industry there.

• 13:13Rick Rubin?

  You were outside of it.

• 13:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, we all were. Myself, Chad, Timberland, Missy, Shay. It wasn't really anything there. But when Teddy moved in town, Teddy Riley moved in town, a lot of that changed. And that gave us opportunities and Tim and Missy went to Jersey. And they were working a lot with Devonte Swing, like things happened then. But even still, it wasn't that. But Virginia happened to be this really peculiar state that was in between New York DC and Atlanta and Miami. And it was like, people would just go there.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  All the hustlers would come down, you know? And if they weren't necessarily hustling in the city, they were partying in the city. And Norfolk and Virginia Beach, and it was just like this different time.

• 14:11Rick Rubin?

  You think the beach played a role in that?

• 14:13Speaker 01

  It was just like a thing. But musically, because we weren't as northern and then we weren't the most southern and we definitely weren't the Midwest or the West Coast, we listened to everything. And I think that shaped us as. At least the group that I'm referring to now, like, it shaped us as musicians. And I think it really shaped the area because we loved anything that just was coming from any different area, but like amazing. Then it got play and it got spin. And I think that developed our like taste buds to be eclectic, to like all kinds of music. Virginia Beach is a very like,

• 14:55Speaker 01

  it's a very interesting place that seems like it's just Normalville, but there's so many other like hidden talents, people with great taste. It wasn't reflective in what you seen, but like, like for example, like one of the biggest Warhol collectors ever lived in Virginia Beach. People wouldn't know. We used to have this Buckminster Fuller Geodesic Dome down there that everybody performed at. I didn't even know, but like some of everybody performed there. And it sadly got torn down. But then we ended up acquiring that property to build like this whole big multi-use

• 15:41Speaker 01

  venue and hotel, wave park, like all this other stuff. But it's like, it's always been a magnet for very interesting people. The Edgar Cayce and the ARE Foundation is down there.

• 15:54Rick Rubin?

  Wow, I didn't know that.

• 15:55Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, that's where he moved from Kentucky. He moved there. He moved to Virginia Beach.

• 16:01Rick Rubin?

  So cool.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it's a lot there. It's just, I don't think that we've been very good at marketing it and celebrating it.

• 16:09Rick Rubin?

  But maybe that keeps it what it is. Sometimes the harder it is to get to or the fact that it's a secret preserves it. Some things get watered down.

• 16:21Speaker 01

  You're right. And I, I agree with that philosophy, like Cap Ferrara, Cap Ferré.

• 16:27Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 16:27Speaker 01

  Or, you know, like a Hampton's type of vibe or like, you know, a lot of states and countries have like those kind of like, if you know, you know, places. But then you would need the powers that be there.

• 16:43Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 16:44Speaker 01

  To know that.

• 16:45Rick Rubin?

  Yes.

• 16:45Speaker 01

  To know what they're protecting.

• 16:47Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  And a lot of times, they don't.

• 16:49Rick Rubin?

  Understood, understood.

• 16:51Speaker 01

  I love them.

• 16:51Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 16:53Speaker 01

  But like, but I don't, I don't love when they don't have the self-awareness or the wherewithal, and I mean the powers that be, to know how special the place is and how we could really take it to the next level. And that's why I feel like a lot of us are raising our hands and making major investments and bringing big investors from all over the world so that we can make it an international treasure. And even if it's gonna be an international secret.

• 17:20Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 17:20Speaker 01

  Let's treat it that way.

• 17:22Rick Rubin?

  Do you think of Virginia as your home?

• 17:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I mean Miami's my home too.

• 17:28Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  Virginia Beach, Miami, Paris.

• 17:32Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  Tokyo.

• 17:33Rick Rubin?

  But when you think home, which one comes up?

• 17:40Speaker 01

  Virginia's always gonna be my home. But we live in Paris right at the moment. My kids are there going to school, like. But then Tokyo was my home for another reason, you know?

• 17:51Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 17:51Speaker 01

  And in Miami is just like,

• 17:55Speaker 01

  that never gets old.

• 17:57Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about writing new songs for the movie.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  I needed to see myself objectified first to write about myself. I've never really written good music for myself. I think I told you this the last time, like all of my best songs are songs that I wrote for somebody else and we just used the demos.

• 18:16Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  But I need to get me out of the way because when I see me, I just, it's like a mirror looking at itself. Like, there's no image there. There's nothing inspiring.

• 18:26Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 18:26Speaker 01

  But when I'm channeling somebody else and it brings something out of me and they don't use the record.

• 18:30Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  That's kinda like, because I'm in service to others, so my best work naturally is gonna be when I am channeling someone else and not me. And seeing myself objectified allowed me to have enough separation to get inspired. And so that's where Piece by Piece came from.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  And there's another one called Lego Odyssey. And in French, the way you would say the ego is le ego, L apostrophe ego. And it would be pronounced Lego.

• 19:04Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  And that was based on, most of my life, my first 50 years of my life, at least the first 40, were just egocentric. And look, society sort of breeds that and supports that. You know, I'm the best, I'm this, I'm that.

• 19:26Speaker 01

  And you're not. You're actually part of an equation.

• 19:30Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 19:30Speaker 01

  And what you are, when you say I am, you are part of the greater I am. And you're lucky to be just existing, you know? Am is a noun and am is a verb. Just like God is a noun and God is a verb. And love is a noun and love is a verb. I wrote about the first 40 plus years of my life. Because from 40 to 50 is how I made it. It's like a 10-year transition of just this.

• 20:05Rick Rubin?

  How did it happen though? What triggered it?

• 20:08Speaker 01

  I think I explained this to you the last time. Like, you know,

• 20:13Speaker 01

  Happy blurred lines get lucky. Three songs that I was commissioned to write.

• 20:21Speaker 01

  And eventually got attributed to me due to circumstances. And they were also, like I said, they were commissions. So it wasn't like, you know how like, you wake up one day and you're like, yo, I'm gonna make... I don't know, you woke up one day and decided you want to do 99 Problems, right?

• 20:39Rick Rubin?

  Yep.

• 20:40Speaker 01

  Let's pretend 99 Problems was solely your idea.

• 20:43Rick Rubin?

  Yep.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  And most of the songs of your catalog are solely your idea. You woke up that day and decided you wanted to do that.

• 20:53Speaker 01

  That would lead you to believe that you are controlling your destiny. It would lead you to believe that you sold that many records. It would lead you to believe that like, your willpower and your existence is solely in control of everything, every part of the process.

• 21:18Speaker 01

  Then, one day, you get three different commissions to do something. So they're not... It is gonna be your idea, but it's because someone prompted you. "Hey, we need the right song for this scene." "Hey, we need a song for this artist." "Hey, we need you to write a song to be on our record." You do all of that. You end up being on all the records. They all end up being like number one records. And with huge, not just number one records, but like 22 million records sold. You know what I mean? Like, on just one song alone.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  Like, you know, and counting type shit. And then you go, "Oh, I'm not in control." And then it dawns on you that you didn't sell that many records. You wrote a song. You produced a song. And the fans decided to download, share, or like actually buy physical copies. And then those songs are bigger than anything you've ever done. Songs are like helping people get through their day. It's help... Some songs is helping people through their chemotherapies. Some songs is helping people through divorce. Some songs are just giving people hope. Like, just a whole bunch of things that like are humbling to you.

• 22:46Speaker 01

  But then, at the core of all of it, you didn't commission these songs from yourself. These songs were commissions. The universe conspired to show you all these things. And it just made me ball. And so, that was when I was 40.

• 23:06Rick Rubin?

  And you saw it clearly?

• 23:07Speaker 01

  Clear.

• 23:08Rick Rubin?

  That's great.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  I noticed things.

• 23:10Rick Rubin?

  Did you feel relief? What was the feeling when you saw it?

• 23:15Speaker 01

  The relief that I felt was not quite how you're saying it. It was a different context. It was more like, "You didn't give up on me."

• 23:27Speaker 01

  I point to the sun, but this sun is one of trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions of stars. But existence, the air between you and I, the molecules in you, the molecules in me, the molecules in the trees, the breeze that we're feeling right now, any and everything that we're in, this matrix that we are in of existence, that's my God. The Alpha and the Omega, the all that is, all that ever was, and all that ever will be, existence. You didn't give up on me, and you gave me another shot, and you really, really, really

• 24:09Speaker 01

  demonstrated it through these three songs that I was commissioned to do. And you left me in on it, because I never thought I could ever do anything so big with me being the featured artist.

• 24:23Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  It was all of that, and I never looked at it the same. And it took me from 40 to 50 to like really get to a full place of like just humility. Like, there's no need for me to brag. There's no need for me to like, and be dramatic, and... For what?

• 24:48Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 24:49Speaker 01

  I'm so blessed to exist. I exist at this time, in this space, this longitude, this latitude, at this particular juncture, I exist.

• 25:04Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  I'm so grateful.

• 25:12Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about your relationship to the church growing up.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  Church was everything. That's where we first saw spirit. You know, we saw the spirit moving through people. You know, we're out here in nature right now, and as the wind blows, some of these trees with the longer branches, you can tell which way the wind is blowing, based on which way the leaves are turning, and which way the, and how the sections of branches are blowing in the same direction.

• 25:43Speaker 01

  And that's how the spirit is in church. When the spirit is really moving around in there, it's like a wave. You just see it. You know how like you go to a big football stadium and you see people doing a wave?

• 25:55Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  I seen the spirit do that.

• 26:00Speaker 01

  Just moving around. People just throwing their hands up and screaming and shouting. And I would see that at, you know,

• 26:09Speaker 01

  my dad's church, which was a Pentecostal church. And then my mom's church was a Baptist church. And they didn't really like shout as much in there. You would hear it, but it wasn't like it wasn't a Pentecostal church.

• 26:20Rick Rubin?

  Was there music in church?

• 26:21Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, it was a lot of music. And it was usually, it would begin with something very powerful that the pastor would say. You know, Elder Bishop Theragood. He would say something that would just connect with all of the congregation. But then the organist, which was most of the time was my uncle, my uncle Ezekiel. Yeah. He would play along as this guy's preaching, but he's preaching in a note.

• 26:56Speaker 01

  Think Future with autotune.

• 26:58Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  Right?

• 26:59Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  And as he moves, Future, when Future is rhyming, he's rhyming. And he's picking a note and he's having these pockets that correspond with whatever the chords are in the beat. Right?

• 27:13Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 27:14Speaker 01

  That's what they would do in church.

• 27:15Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 27:16Speaker 01

  They would hit, you know, that

• 27:19Speaker 01

  A flat or A sharp, you know, that A, like they would hit that. And then all of a sudden, as he's preaching and saying what he's saying, he's doing it with a melody.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  And then all of a sudden, as he's making his next point.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  The organist would modulate up to a half step. And it would be like, and they would continue to do it up another step, up another step. And you're just feeling this welling feeling that's in there. And man, at a certain point, it just would explode. The pressure like a pipe, it would explode. And all of a sudden, they do, they go to a cut time beat.

• 28:02Speaker 01

  And then, and then, and literally you're seeing people shouting. And you're seeing people run up and down the aisles. And you're just seeing waves and waves of wafts of the spirit. Just people just moving and I grew up in that.

• 28:19Rick Rubin?

  Wow, and from the pastor and the organist, none of that was rehearsed.

• 28:24Speaker 01

  Zero.

• 28:26Rick Rubin?

  That was a moment in time.

• 28:28Speaker 01

  Where they just connected to the spirit.

• 28:30Rick Rubin?

  All improvisation, feeling the moment.

• 28:33Speaker 01

  Period.

• 28:33Rick Rubin?

  Amazing.

• 28:34Speaker 01

  Period.

• 28:35Rick Rubin?

  Amazing.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  And I would even, I would even venture to say now that you're, now that you just said what you said. I would say that was my first.

• 28:47Speaker 01

  That was the first time I ever encountered urgency live. You could literally, if you could cut the air. You could cut a block of the energy out in that room. And if one could consume it, you don't understand what you would feel.

• 29:04Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, nobody wasn't paying attention. People were.

• 29:08Speaker 01

  Everybody was engaged.

• 29:09Rick Rubin?

  In it.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  Everybody.

• 29:11Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 29:11Speaker 01

  You could feel it.

• 29:12Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, that's amazing.

• 29:14Speaker 01

  You could feel it, and but that still happens today. You know, my uncle's church, Faith World Ministries.

• 29:22Speaker 01

  You know, that still happens today. I mean, when he preaches, he, he, he went from being an organist and piano player, which he still is, to now being a pastor of his own ministry and congregation. And you go there, you sit and you feel. It's right off of Azalea in Norfolk, Virginia. And you live at Azalea Gardens, Azalea Boulevard.

• 29:47Speaker 01

  When he speaks the word, and him, and the organist there, the head organist there, Larry, man, what they make, the feeling that they're able to conjure, and the way that the Spirit just comes into that building, it's just, it's something else.

• 30:07Rick Rubin?

  There's a reason so much great music comes out of the church.

• 30:10Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 30:11Rick Rubin?

  The best musicians, the best singers.

• 30:14Speaker 01

  Yes. And I think what conditions them is the Spirit, access to the Spirit.

• 30:19Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  And for me, to be clear,

• 30:22Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 30:22Speaker 01

  when I talked about the all that is, all that is, all that ever was, all that ever will be, you know, the Alpha and the Omega, you know, the matrix itself, existence. To me, the Spirit is the energy of all that, everything that exists. It's the Spirit. It's the kinetic side of, it's all that.

• 30:45Rick Rubin?

  What makes it happen.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  What makes everything happen.

• 30:47Rick Rubin?

  Creation.

• 30:48Speaker 01

  The energy, yeah.

• 30:50Rick Rubin?

  Did you look forward to going to church during the week?

• 30:54Speaker 01

  No, it felt like a chore sometimes. Because, man, you know, the way that we grew up, it was like, Wednesday night Bible study, you know, prayer over at the house, Thursday or Friday night.

• 31:09Speaker 01

  You know, choir rehearsal on Saturday, Sunday morning, church. You go to the first service in the morning. Sometimes go to the second service in the evening. I mean, it was different.

• 31:20Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 31:20Speaker 01

  It was a lot.

• 31:21Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 31:22Speaker 01

  And I wanted to do other things because outside of church, where the secular music was, was like Michael Jackson and like, you know, the Jacksons and, you know, Stevie Wonder music and James Brown. And that's a different kind of spirit. That's a different side of the Spirit.

• 31:39Speaker 01

  But I'm very grateful for my formative years. That helped me to see, I learned where urgency and improvisation really was through the church.

• 31:51Rick Rubin?

  You talked about that revelation between 40 and 50. Did you learn anything about yourself in making the movie?

• 32:00Speaker 01

  I did. Again, I saw my soul's purpose for the first time.

• 32:05Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about that.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  Can I face the sun?

• 32:07Rick Rubin?

  Sure.

• 32:07Speaker 01

  Man, the sun is like amazing right now.

• 32:11Rick Rubin?

  Feels so good, doesn't it?

• 32:11Speaker 01

  It does. Feel so good inside.

• 32:15Speaker 01

  I never really like knew my soul's purpose. I can see everywhere except the future for myself.

• 32:25Speaker 01

  I can sometimes discern it through people, what their futures might be. And for them, but I can't do it for myself. Never been able to. And it was weird having this film as a tool. A therapeutic tool, by the way, but a tool to help me see who I really am and what my purpose is. Because I've never really gotten it. I've never really seen what people see. I just think I'm just lucky as hell. I'm like, I don't know what y'all see, but I ain't gonna talk you out of it.

• 33:00Speaker 01

  You know what I'm saying? It's like, I mean, are you like that? Or you, do you get why you are the Rick Rubin?

• 33:06Rick Rubin?

  No. I'm just me and just do what I like. That's it. Simple.

• 33:11Speaker 01

  Same.

• 33:12Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 33:12Speaker 01

  But the fact that you have the fanfare and the respect that you have in the industry and just the audience that you have for anything that you do, do you get it?

• 33:22Rick Rubin?

  I'm appreciative of it, but that's it.

• 33:25Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 33:25Rick Rubin?

  I'm grateful, thankful.

• 33:28Speaker 01

  Same.

• 33:29Rick Rubin?

  But also, I don't do it for that. I do it for the purity of the thing. I want to feel the thing, and then other people like it. That's the best bonus.

• 33:38Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 33:39Rick Rubin?

  I believe we would both be doing what we're doing if nobody cared about it either.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  100%.

• 33:44Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  And oftentimes, and oftentimes when they don't get it, we still do it.

• 33:47Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 33:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, and we still love those things as much as we love the ones that other people love.

• 33:53Rick Rubin?

  Sometimes better.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  Those are the fine wines.

• 33:56Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that part's not in our control. But when we're making it, we can keep working on it till we love it.

• 34:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:05Speaker 01

  I want this for everybody, man.

• 34:06Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. Everyone can do it. Not everyone's gonna like everything you make, but you can have that experience of making something and working on it until it's a true reflection of what you think is beautiful.

• 34:21Speaker 01

  Well, we just live in a society that pushes people and really, really hammers into them that they gotta go do things that make the most money versus what they love. And I think if you can find something that you love, even if, like, you love football.

• 34:42Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 34:44Speaker 01

  But you ain't nowhere near big enough or fast enough, or whatever the requirements might be. Listen, to be a therapist, a physical therapist, or to be anything from a water boy to like, to sell concessions, you're gonna love your job.

• 35:02Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, if you're around it.

• 35:03Speaker 01

  Man, that's a great life.

• 35:05Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 35:06Speaker 01

  And I feel like society would be so much better if we had that. But that's not what they do. They, you know, they, you know, your parents tell you, you gotta be a doctor or a lawyer. And by the way, there are some great doctors and who really wanted to be that, and some great lawyers who really wanted to be that. But what about everybody else?

• 35:22Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 35:24Speaker 01

  What would America be

• 35:28Speaker 01

  if everybody did mostly the jobs or worked in environments or worked in, within industries that had a subject matter that they love and were obsessed with? How many billionaires and center millionaires and millionaires hate their lives?

• 35:48Speaker 01

  The ultimate part about it is not, it's not money.

• 35:52Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 35:52Speaker 01

  The means are important. But the, the means and the currency is important. But like, the idea of like, money being like the end all be all is not true. Now, you wouldn't be able to afford this place if it weren't for strategy and the right timing.

• 36:08Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 36:09Speaker 01

  And currency.

• 36:10Rick Rubin?

  But it's a bonus.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  Right. But it's not the end all be all. It's not the end all be all. Despite anything you might see,

• 36:20Speaker 01

  it isn't. At the end of the day, it's like, being able to do what you love.

• 36:27Speaker 01

  Endlessly. I want that for people, man.

• 36:31Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. I think the best way to do it, you lead by example. You know, show people that it's possible.

• 36:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I love music. Music is the skeleton key that opened up every door for me.

• 36:45Rick Rubin?

  How did you come to be a part of Louis Vuitton?

• 36:50Speaker 01

  Got a phone call.

• 36:54Speaker 01

  And I was so like thrown off because I just never expected I'd be able to do it. I mean, I just wasn't even, it didn't even cross my mind because I worked with them 20 years ago. Marc Jacobs tapped me to do some sunglasses with them, myself, and I brought Niggle along. That was 20 years ago. And then, then I think 19 years ago, they came out, they hit the market. But we had started working on them 20 years ago. So I thought, okay, I did sunglasses there, I did, um...

• 37:29Speaker 01

  We also did like jewelry.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  A few years later, I did a campaign with them and I thought, okay. My time there is good and it's up and, you know, I eventually went on to Moncler and I started working with Chanel.

• 37:49Speaker 01

  And I just, you know, thought that was it. My brother Virgil was, you know, he had gotten the appointment. And I thought, that's so cool because he was there in the very beginning when him and Kanye were there in the very beginning when we first got it. In fact, there's a photo of all three of us and they're trying on the sunglasses I did back then. So the idea that like him wearing them glasses existed and then he went on to be the guy.

• 38:18Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 38:18Speaker 01

  That was enough for me.

• 38:19Rick Rubin?

  Amazing.

• 38:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was like, oh, no, like, that's it.

• 38:26Rick Rubin?

  What were your expectations and then what were you met with when you got there?

• 38:30Speaker 01

  I didn't have any expectations, but I did go in there with a plan.

• 38:36Speaker 01

  I did know the way that I looked at

• 38:40Speaker 01

  fashion and the way that I wanted to like build out my system and what would work for me.

• 38:48Speaker 01

  And they, they agreed. They're like, okay, this works. Very grateful that it's, it's been good. It's been really good. We get to tell stories and I get inspired by different parts of the world and you know, it's a, it's a travel brand. So we tell this, we constantly tell stories about, you know, humans traveling and what they learn in different areas. Being inspired by these areas and working with local artisans of these different places around the world has been, it's been a real living dream.

• 39:24Speaker 01

  I don't take any of it for granted. I can't believe I'm here, man. The last time I was sitting here talking to you, I didn't know this is all gonna happen.

• 39:30Rick Rubin?

  Wild.

• 39:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I told you, I can't see the future for myself.

• 39:34Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 39:36Rick Rubin?

  How has being a father changed your life?

• 39:39Speaker 01

  Immensely. Being responsible for four new spirits coming into this world, helping to shape their experiences in their formative years, all while making sure that my lifestyle does not corrupt their point of view on how, what the world, real world really is, has been one of the greatest gifts of my life.

• 40:08Speaker 01

  You know, these are four songs that I co-wrote with my wife, whose bridges continue to rewrite themselves as they grow old.

• 40:20Speaker 01

  During the holidays, we go and we go and we feed and serve the homeless. We go and, you know, to different children's hospitals where there are a lot of kids that are challenged with like, conditions that a lot of times are uncurable or haven't been cured yet. And that's because I want my children to understand having to have real coping skills and to see what real courage looks like.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  A child that wakes up and gets bad news that day and realizes that it's gonna be a tough ride and

• 41:03Speaker 01

  When they wake up every day and they face that day for what it is. I wanted my kids to have that.

• 41:11Speaker 01

  And so I'm on it. I don't, I'm strict about it. I don't play. I'm a strict dad. But, because the world is harsh.

• 41:19Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 41:20Speaker 01

  You know, I think when parents say things like, "Oh, I never want my kids to struggle the way that I did." Well, you have to understand, the way your struggle produced you being a hardworking,

• 41:35Speaker 01

  critical-thinking individual. And when you don't allow your kids to have guided struggle,

• 41:43Speaker 01

  they don't develop the coping skills. They don't have the courage. They don't, can't deal with challenges.

• 41:52Speaker 01

  And, um,

• 41:55Speaker 01

  it oftentimes doesn't end so well.

• 41:58Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about "Things Gonna Be Alright."

• 42:01Speaker 01

  The Kendrick song.

• 42:02Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 42:06Speaker 01

  That was a record that like-

• 42:08Rick Rubin?

  Did you write that hook?

• 42:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:11Rick Rubin?

  I had no idea that you wrote the hook.

• 42:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, that's me on the hook.

• 42:15Rick Rubin?

  I had no idea.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then my buddy KP, who was a A&R, he was like, because I was like, "We gon' be alright." And the way I was saying it, I was saying it on some Virginia shit and-

• 42:29Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. That's what makes it.

• 42:31Speaker 01

  Well, it, well, he corrected me to say "alright," to put the "R" in there, and so I ended up doing it. But you, but it still sounded like I'm saying "alright."

• 42:41Rick Rubin?

  Alright, yeah.

• 42:43Speaker 01

  But, uh-

• 42:43Rick Rubin?

  Maybe you put out the street version, the remix, with the proper "alright."

• 42:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, at some point. But yeah, like, that was, it was just a feeling in the song and, you know,

• 42:58Speaker 01

  Kendrick really got it. He really understood it. Who knew that it was gonna go on and represent the feeling and thought

• 43:08Speaker 01

  of the culture in the air that time?

• 43:11Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, the timing was unbelievable.

• 43:12Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 43:13Rick Rubin?

  Would you say you live more in your head or your body?

• 43:18Speaker 01

  You know, most of my life, I lived in my head. I think I'm now just starting to explore the energy departments of my body.

• 43:30Speaker 01

  I was also less concerned with like my chakras. And now like I think about those.

• 43:38Speaker 01

  As I think about my organs. And I think about like having everything work in harmony.

• 43:48Speaker 01

  The esoteric readings that, you know, the Edgar Cayce esoteric readings. That I was like into, you know. In my late twenties. Are now like, I'm not just curious about it, I'm actually living it. I want my organs to be in line so that I can vibrate harmoniously. And be.

• 44:10Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 44:10Speaker 01

  Human being.

• 44:11Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  And be.

• 44:12Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 44:13Speaker 01

  That's also a verb and a noun. Being. And I also wanna like lead by example, you know?

• 44:22Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about your relationship to rhythm.

• 44:27Speaker 01

  I've always had a relationship to rhythm. I think I got like ADD, just never was diagnosed. And so I was always like. And a little bit of ADHD. When what you get distracted by is music.

• 44:44Speaker 01

  Then you, you, you ask yourself, okay, is it ADHD or is it inspiration?

• 44:50Speaker 01

  You know, inspiration and drive.

• 44:54Speaker 01

  I was always hearing like drum patterns. But if you think about it, I mean.

• 44:59Rick Rubin?

  You say drum's your primary instrument?

• 45:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. If you think about it, you know, the universe is ruled by rhythm. The solar system is what it is. The planets stay in the pattern that they're in. Even the sun, the planets around it, like. It can all be measured to a beat. There are stages, which is what technically a beat would be.

• 45:25Speaker 01

  But we have a pulse. We have a heartbeat.

• 45:30Speaker 01

  And we're born with the rhythm.

• 45:33Speaker 01

  I mean. The beginning of the universe is described as a sound.

• 45:40Speaker 01

  The Big Bang. That would mean that's the start of the beat of all the, everything that exists.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  The universe started with a beat.

• 45:52Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, and then the beat dropped is what the Bible says.

• 45:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:00Rick Rubin?

  How is programmed music different than human played music?

• 46:05Speaker 01

  Two different things. One, I mean, programmed music is amazing. But man, when human beings lock in, there's a feeling that you get from it.

• 46:16Rick Rubin?

  No machines can make what you described in the church.

• 46:19Speaker 01

  What'll be scary is when AI gets to that place.

• 46:22Rick Rubin?

  Can it?

• 46:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:26Speaker 01

  Anything that is conceivable can happen.

• 46:31Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about the tall hats.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  That was a Vivienne Westwood hat. I was inspired by Malcolm McLaren. It was Buffalo hat. And, um...

• 46:41Rick Rubin?

  It's such a cool hat.

• 46:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was like 10 years ago.

• 46:45Rick Rubin?

  Game-changing hat, though.

• 46:46Speaker 01

  Crazy.

• 46:47Rick Rubin?

  Never saw a hat like that before.

• 46:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was crazy. I go through my phases of like, moments where you can't tell me nothing. I'm gonna wear it regardless of the weather. I don't care what you think.

• 46:57Rick Rubin?

  I wish you'd pull it out again.

• 46:59Speaker 01

  And then when, but then when I'm off it, I'm off it.

• 47:01Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  And I'm off it.

• 47:04Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about, um, fashion in hip-hop.

• 47:08Speaker 01

  Hip-hop has been like, one of the greatest fashion shows and displays. My friend Eric Paul, when he was young,

• 47:22Speaker 01

  he and I used to listen to the Beastie Boys License to Ill record back in Salem Village

• 47:30Speaker 01

  on repeat while we just skated all day, every day. And this is like, you know, Hossay, Paul Pirelta times. Rob Roscoe, like, Tony Hawk decks and independent trucks. And back then, it was like, if you skated street, you skated on 85s. If you skated on the ramp, you skated 92s, which was in-between. But then there was also 97s and 99s, which were super hard. Like, that was my life. And listening to the Beastie Boys and reading the Rick Rubin name, I can't believe I'm sitting here right now.

• 48:06Speaker 01

  Like the Run DMC music. And then when you, so you think about all the clothes. Like, I wanted a jean jacket because Mike D wore a jean jacket. You know, back when he had like the uh.

• 48:19Rick Rubin?

  The Volkswagen.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  The Volkswagen like charm on his, you know. That was everything, man. You know, or the idea that I'm with Adidas now and that record, my Adidas was everything. And we wanted it. That, my Adidas record changed the conversation from, from Puma back then.

• 48:40Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  I mean, you know, love and respect to Puma.

• 48:42Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 48:42Speaker 01

  But like, that changed the conversation. And they actually, that record saved the Adidas business.

• 48:49Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 48:50Speaker 01

  So, yeah. Hip hop was like the stage for like fashion.

• 48:56Rick Rubin?

  What do you think the biggest misconception about you is?

• 48:59Speaker 01

  That I'm a tech geek.

• 49:02Speaker 01

  And I'm so not. I'm the worst.

• 49:07Speaker 01

  I use technology as much as I need to.

• 49:11Rick Rubin?

  What's your favorite place on the planet?

• 49:14Speaker 01

  Tokyo.

• 49:15Rick Rubin?

  Really?

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:16Rick Rubin?

  Why?

• 49:18Speaker 01

  The humility is so thick there.

• 49:21Rick Rubin?

  So it's the people.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  The humility is as thick as the humidity is.

• 49:26Rick Rubin?

  What do you do outside of your creative life that has the most impact on your creative life?

• 49:32Speaker 01

  Pray.

• 49:33Rick Rubin?

  Beautiful. What's the rhythm?

• 49:35Speaker 01

  God is the greatest for me.

• 49:39Speaker 01

  I have these very long prayers

• 49:43Speaker 01

  that I pray in the morning. They're very, very, very long. There's two different ones. And I do them both every morning.

• 49:51Rick Rubin?

  When did you start doing them?

• 49:53Speaker 01

  I think they just developed over the last 20 some years. I pray for people that I don't even talk to anymore. Just lost contact, whatever, whatever. But they just remain in my prayers. The prayers are just very cemented in my mind.

• 50:08Speaker 01

  God is the greatest.

• 50:12Speaker 01

  And I am grateful.

• 50:13Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. Me too.

• 50:18Speaker 01

  Blessings, big bro.

• 50:19Rick Rubin?

  Love you, sir.

• 50:20Speaker 01

  Yes, sir, man. You too. Thank you so much.