Michelle Yeoh - On typecasting, fertility and THAT Oscars speech

Michelle Yeoh has created a legendary body of work that defies easy categorisation. You’ll know her from cult classic Kung Fu Cinema, Everything Everywhere, All At Once - the film that made her the first Asian woman to be given the Academy Award for Best Actress at the time. She was cast as a Bond girl in Tomorrow Never Dies, then starred in the global box office hit Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon and the brilliantly chilling future mother-in-law in Crazy Rich Asians. This month sees her returning to the role in Wicked, as Madame Morrible. In person she is warm and engaging, with a fascinating story to tell. We talk about why mistakes help us grow, why she felt like a ‘failure’ for not having children (something we have in common), stage fright - and how she almost quit after a life-threatening stunt injury. Plus: racism, typecasting and why her mother is the REAL diva. ✨ IN THIS EPISODE: 01:16 The Journey to Hollywood 02:36 The Role of Family 03:52 On Playing Iconic Roles 08:10 Facing Personal Challenges 24:20 Think Wider: Breaking Family Expectations 25:38 Pursuing Dreams: From Ballet to Acting 27:16 The Hong Kong Film Industry: Early Challenges 27:33 Breaking Stereotypes: Women in Action Films 34:25 Hollywood's Limitations: Typecasting and Minority Roles 37:30 Facing Racism: The Ongoing Struggle 39:22 Stunt Accident: A Turning Point 47:57 Resilience and Reflection: Lessons Learned 💬 QUOTES TO REMEMBER: When you're down, you learn. You become resilient, you become stronger and you learn from mistakes. Don't wallow in them. I truly believe ups and downs are like a heartbeat. You can't just [go] one way. Right? That would be a flatline. I believe in always moving forwards, because if you stay still you're just stagnant and you're just waiting for the inevitable. An act of kindness or compassion goes a long, long way in our world and we are in so desperate need of that. 🔗 LINKS + MENTIONS: Wicked: For Good is in cinemas from 21st November Join the How To Fail community: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Elizabeth’s Substack: https://theelizabethday.substack.com/ 📚 WANT MORE? Sharon Horgan - on quitting art college and drama school, the impact of divorce and being in her 50s https://link.chtbl.com/hR7kycoN Andrew Scott - on childhood failure, not finishing university and heteronormativity https://link.chtbl.com/18dVhMb_ 💌 LOVE THIS EPISODE? Subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts Leave a 5⭐ review – it helps more people discover these stories 👋 Follow How To Fail & Elizabeth: Instagram: @elizabday TikTok: @howtofailpod Podcast Instagram: @howtofailpod Website: www.elizabethday.org Elizabeth and Michelle answer YOUR questions in our subscriber series, Failing with Friends. Join our community of subscribers here: howtofailpod.com Have a failure you’re trying to work through for Elizabeth to discuss? Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Engineer: Matias Torres Assistant Producer: Suhaar Ali Senior Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Carly Maile How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  When you're down, you learn, you become resilient, you become stronger and you you learn from mistakes. Don't wallow in them. I held my arms out like that. Luckily, I had a big gown on and I went, oh my God, I was sweating. It was just dripping because I was so scared.

• 0:18Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. Hello and welcome to How to Fail. This is the podcast that believes that failure shows us who we truly are and what we're really made of. Before we get started on this conversation, please do remember to subscribe and follow so that you never miss a single episode.

• 0:42Elizabeth Day?

  One of the things I hear a lot from listeners is how tiring it can be when your mind just doesn't settle. And I can only imagine this feels even heavier with intrusive thoughts. It's that quiet sense of being worn down by something you never asked for and never wanted, but just can't seem to switch off. If you struggle with this, I want to tell you about NoCD because it's a resource that genuinely helps people. NoCD provides specialised treatment for OCD. And what I appreciate about their approach is how human it feels. You're matched with a licensed therapist trained in ERP therapy. That's Exposure and Response Prevention. And over time, you learn skills that help your OCD symptoms become

• 1:23Elizabeth Day?

  manageable so you can live more of the life you want to live. If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NoCD can help. Book a free 15 minute call to get started at learn.nocd.com/fail. Confession time. I have a tendency to postpone certain decisions for far longer than is sensible. Not the big life decisions, oddly enough, those I can usually handle. It's the smaller ones that somehow become disproportionately complicated. For me, rugs fall squarely into that category. I've known for a long time that a rug can completely change how a room feels, but I've always found sizing for a space tricky. That's why Arnesta appealed

• 2:07Elizabeth Day?

  to me. Arnesta makes designer quality rugs. Custom cut to the exact dimensions of your space. So instead of making do with something that's close enough, you're choosing something made specifically for your home. I also love the fact that you can order five oversized 12 by 12 samples for just $10 before committing and Anesta's design team will help with sizing completely free of charge. Visit Anesta.com and order five samples for only $10 and you'll get $50 towards any rug of your choice. That's Anesta, E R N E S T A dot com. Michelle Yeoh has created a legendary body of work that defies easy categorization.

• 2:49Elizabeth Day?

  From cult classic Kung Fu cinema to blockbuster Bond flicks and Oscar winning sci fi leads. In fact, it was her turn as a harassed laundry owner in 2023's Everything Everywhere All at Once that made her the first Asian woman to be given the Academy Award for Best Actress. At the time, Yeoh said in a moving acceptance speech that, "For all the little boys and girls who look like me watching tonight, this is a beacon of hope and possibilities." Her story began 63 years ago in Malaysia, where she was born surrounded by mountains and nature. Her first love was ballet, which she learned from the age of four before going to England

• 3:33Elizabeth Day?

  to attend dance school in Chester at the age of 15. A spinal injury put paid to her dreams of turning professional. But back home, her mother entered Yeoh into the Miss Malaysia competition, which she won. From there, she made the leap into action movies, literally. With her impressive physical prowess, Yeoh performed her own stunts opposite the legendary Jackie Chan, including landing an aerial motorcycle jump onto the top of a speeding train in 1992's Super Cop. She was cast as a Bond girl in Tomorrow Never Dies, then starred in the global box office hit Crouching Tiger: Hidden Dragon.

• 4:14Elizabeth Day?

  For many of us, Yeoh will also be best known for her performances as Eleanor, the chilling future mother-in-law in Crazy Rich Asians, and as Madame Morrible in the Wicked films. This month sees her returning to the role in Wicked for Good. In her seventh decade then, Yo is as busy and in demand as ever. Her continuing and well deserved success recalls something else, she once remarked. With every turn, with every twist and with every roll, I simply said, why not? I will commit totally, I will do my best, I will be brave and unafraid of failure.

• 4:57Elizabeth Day?

  Michelle Yeoh, welcome to How To Fail.

• 5:00Speaker 00

  Thank you for having me and what a title, How To Fail. Normally people go for how to be the most successful, the most rich and this and that. And it's like, how to fail?

• 5:13Elizabeth Day?

  Were you surprised when you got the request to come up with it?

• 5:16Speaker 00

  Yes, I was like, is there really a program called How To Fail? But actually, it's so important because you really have to be brave and not afraid to fail. Because otherwise, you live through life being, doing nothing.

• 5:30Elizabeth Day?

  Exactly. Well, failure helps you grow because otherwise you never take the risk. And I am so honoured to be sitting opposite you, I really am. Having followed your career as a fan, having watched your Oscars acceptance speech and cried with your words. And also having followed some of the things that you've said about failure over the course of your life. It feels magical to be in your presence. So thank you, thank you, thank you for being here. How is it being back in the world of Wicked? Is it as much fun to film as it looks to us as viewers?

• 6:04Speaker 00

  Oh, yes.

• 6:05Elizabeth Day?

  Is it?

• 6:05Speaker 00

  Oh, my God, yes. And actually, Wicked, while we were filming Wicked, it gave me a solid foundation of love and serenity. Because that was the time when we were campaigning for the Oscars with everything everywhere all at once. So I was flying between New York and LA and London, back and forth, back and forth for all the... And it is, it is a huge thing to...

• 6:35Speaker 00

  Believe in your movie and support each other with my cast members, you know. And then when I came back, it was just like straight into the loving arms of Cynthia and Ariana and Jeff and Jonathan and you go like, oh, I'm okay.

• 6:48Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 6:49Speaker 00

  I'm back here. I'm with my, my family, my wicked, wicked family.

• 6:53Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 6:54Speaker 00

  And even though I was the wicked Madame Morrible, they still loved me.

• 6:57Elizabeth Day?

  I was going to ask you that actually, because you're so good at playing mean. You're so good at playing mean because and now having met you, even within five minutes, you seem like the most beautiful, lovely person. And when you're playing mean with people who are your friends in real life.

• 7:13Speaker 00

  Oh, it's fun.

• 7:14Elizabeth Day?

  It's fun, okay.

• 7:14Speaker 00

  It's so much more fun because you know, you get to do all these crazy things. And but I do say to, I do ask John, I'm like, why do you think Michelle Yeoh when you think someone mean and you know, I remember when we were doing Crazy Rich Asians where I played Eleanor, the, the mother, right? And he said, your eyes turn black. And he said to her, you'll never be enough. I was like, John, seriously? And of course he calls me horrible. I'm see, you see, that's it. You think I'm horrible?

• 7:44Speaker 00

  He's like my adopted son.

• 7:45Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 7:46Speaker 00

  I love him to death. So that was an incredible journey and there was also humor in it. I think that was what I truly loved about John's focus on each character had their moment of emotional depth, but at the same time, there was always a little bit of fun and humor and it, and it comes across, you know. So going on that set is just, there's always singing and dancing.

• 8:14Elizabeth Day?

  I was about to ask you about the singing because you were very reticent at first to say yes, weren't you? Because you knew you had to sing.

• 8:20Speaker 00

  Yes, I called John and said, hello, this is a musical, right? And you know, I don't sing, right? And the next thing I knew, he sent a video of, he says, I have two special friends who wanted to say hello to you and they want you to, well, listen to them. So it was Ariana and Cynthia and we had not met before at that point. And they said, Michelle is.

• 8:43Speaker 00

  Imperative that you come and join us now. I mean, how do you say no to Ariana and Cynthia?

• 8:50Elizabeth Day?

  Exactly.

• 8:51Speaker 00

  But I must say, my first singing experience was really supported and encouraged by Cynthia. She really, really helped me out there. Because, you know, when you hear them, they're like angels. And so then when we were doing our song together, The Wizard and I, and thanks to her, I'm actually on Billboard 100.

• 9:16Elizabeth Day?

  Are you?

• 9:17Speaker 00

  Yes, because Cynthia's song got on there and I did the little intro with her, right? And so when we were singing it, and the girls always sing live, even though Cynthia is like, how many feet in the air and doing somersaults? She is singing live. She's amazing. And I remember when I start the song, I literally just squeaked it.

• 9:44Speaker 00

  Because, you know, we had recorded it and just to give you a sense of comfort. And Cynthia came up to me and goes like, she held my hand and she said, she looked at me and she said, I know you can do this, you know, I've heard you sing, so please sing. So, you know, I listened to her.

• 10:07Elizabeth Day?

  Well, we are so grateful to her and to you.

• 10:11Speaker 00

  Oh, yes, I'm grateful to her.

• 10:12Elizabeth Day?

  I wonder if we could talk about your mother.

• 10:15Speaker 00

  Oh, my God. Now, that's a real character there. I mean, she is the real diva here.

• 10:22Elizabeth Day?

  Well, I mentioned in the introduction because you had this experience very early on of failure, actually, when you were 17 and you thought you were going to be a ballerina, but you had an injury. And it was your mother who entered you to Miss Malaysia and sort of changed the course of your career. How important has your mother been to you?

• 10:39Speaker 00

  Well, she's a force, you know, full stop. I mean, she is very dynamic. She's eighty four now, but if you saw a photograph of her, you'd think she was like in her early seventies. And she's always glamorous, always dressed up. And she would look at me going like, are you going out like that? I'm like, oh, my God, I'm going to the gym, mom, you know, seriously. And she's always been like this, just reminding you to look your best, be at your best and all that. And sometimes I think it's it's good to have that. But sometimes it also makes you, I was a people pleaser. You know, I was afraid to to do things or say things that might sound wrong or sound right.

• 11:24Speaker 00

  And it undermined your, you would think that it would make you more confident, but actually it undermines it a bit. Because every time you're going like, oh, I don't look right. I, you know, for fear of sounding not smart enough or something like this. But I also feel that, you know, with Asian parents, especially moms, they try to have their children be seen and not heard. And we were always, you know, the girls should behave like girls, like, you know, not make loud noises and things like that. But so my mom instilled that in us. And like, it took me a while to go to her and say, actually, it's not true.

• 12:05Speaker 00

  You know, we can, we can't speak our minds and we don't always have to agree with what everybody else is saying. And it is important that I believe in myself in that way, rather than just say yes, because, you know, that doesn't rock the boat. I think she would have made the perfect diva. She would have made the, she sings beautifully, she, she would have been a great actress.

• 12:31Elizabeth Day?

  When did you find your own voice and the courage to say that to your mother? How old were you?

• 12:37Speaker 00

  Oh, I was, I think at that time, I'm, I think I was getting my divorce.

• 12:43Elizabeth Day?

  Okay, yes.

• 12:44Speaker 00

  Because, you know, she's very traditional. And she was going like, no, no, no, you should just listen to your husband. And I'm like, no. I'm like, okay, if you love him so much, why don't you marry him?

• 12:56Elizabeth Day?

  This is your first husband.

• 12:59Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 12:59Elizabeth Day?

  And we'll perhaps get on to it a little bit as it pertains to some of your failures. But one of the reasons I was so looking forward to meeting you today is because we have a story in common. I also got divorced and I also tried and failed to have children.

• 13:14Speaker 00

  Children. Ah, then we have something, a lot in common in that way.

• 13:18Elizabeth Day?

  And I feel so grateful to you for talking about that particular story because you can only understand it if you've been through it.

• 13:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, yes, yes. And my mom didn't understand that at that point. So, you know, so it did. And I think it's something that you, first of all, you have to be brave enough to accept and not feel like a failure. And at that point in my life, I did feel like that. I did feel like, you know, I'm supposed just to do one thing women, all women are capable of. Why am I not? Why have I been singled out too? Did I do something wrong? And, you know, we, we, and that's the thing is like, mom put the fear of karma into you. You must have done something wrong. You didn't do this right. So that's why you're getting, you're paying for this in that way and this way. And you go like, no, stop, because I don't believe that.

• 14:10Speaker 00

  And if I did something wrong in my past life, I hope I paid for it then.

• 14:14Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 14:14Speaker 00

  Right? And so, but we do believe that, you know, good will pay forward with good. So at that point, I did feel like a failure of a woman, you know? This is like one of the most natural things for women to be able to do. And I think when you come to accept the fact that it's not your failure, you know? We all have different physicalities, some, but some are very, very different indeed. And it shouldn't be a, a feeling of loss in that way. So finding yourself and believing that, you know, you can move forwards. Because nowadays, I was very lucky. My sister-in-law said, he'll have one of my children.

• 14:58Speaker 00

  And I'm like, okay, guys, stay back. And then my, my best girlfriends, they were like, so now I have six god children. You know, at that point, they were all sharing their children with me. And. I think from there, I learnt love in another form. Right, it's like, how did you cope with yours?

• 15:17Elizabeth Day?

  Well, so beautifully put. I think I've realised that you can feel sadness and be at peace with that sadness. And that the sadness is part of life, that actually it's taught me so much. And my life is so fulfilled in so many ways. And I decided to start concentrating on the love that I did have, rather than the love that I didn't, although I thought I wanted and yearned for.

• 15:40Speaker 00

  Right.

• 15:40Elizabeth Day?

  So I've got married again, like you. He has three children, I have lots of godchildren, I have nieces and a nephew. So there are so many children in my life.

• 15:50Speaker 00

  Right.

• 15:51Elizabeth Day?

  And in this lifetime, I believe that part of my purpose is not to have children in the biological sense, but to mother in other ways.

• 16:00Speaker 00

  Right, yes, yes, I believe that. I think you open your heart in another way. I think when you are just a mother to your own child, it becomes a very sort of overprotective, empowering, almost selfish kind of love that you share with only one. Maybe it was a good lesson in the sense that now I share that one love with so many others and we now have a grandson.

• 16:24Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 16:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:25Elizabeth Day?

  What's that like, being a sort of step-grandmother?

• 16:28Speaker 00

  I don't see, because I get on very well with my stepson. I actually call him my boyfriend.

• 16:34Elizabeth Day?

  Do you?

• 16:36Speaker 00

  He goes around introducing, oh, that's my dad's wife and my girlfriend. Everybody goes.

• 16:42Elizabeth Day?

  That's amazing.

• 16:43Speaker 00

  You just say girlfriend?

• 16:46Elizabeth Day?

  This is a whole other podcast.

• 16:49Speaker 00

  So we get on very, very well together and, you know, and I'm very blessed to have that kind of relationship. I think the most important thing is, what I feel is like he sees that I love his dad and, you know, for what, who he is and what he is. And it's vice versa. We're both very independently, independent, we're both successful in our own ways. And so, you know, and there's no, I think sometimes in a relationship, there shouldn't be any rivalry. You know, who's better than who or, you know, why are you more successful or, you know, better known, blah, blah, blah. So in that way, we're all very comfortable in who we are because we all have had failures, you know, and learn to live with it.

• 17:34Speaker 00

  I truly believe ups and downs is like a heartbeat. You can't just have one way, right? That would be a flat line.

• 17:43Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, you wouldn't be alive. Exactly. That's such a great metaphor.

• 17:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, so, you know, it's important to, you know, when you're down, you learn. You become resilient, you become stronger, and you learn from mistakes. Don't wallow in them, you know, move forward. I believe in always moving forwards because if you stay still, you're just stagnant and you're just waiting for the inevitable.

• 18:13Elizabeth Day?

  Well, talking of moving forwards, let us move forwards to your failures. Your first failure, what I appreciate about them, they were just very straightforward, no context, and I can't wait to find out more because the first failure is stage fright. How did you discover that you had stage fright?

• 18:29Speaker 00

  Oh, very easily. Every time I have to go on stage to make... Okay, I loved dancing. So if I had to perform on stage, it's not a problem. It's speaking on stage. And it is something, unfortunately, I have not overcome. So that's why I still see it as a failure. It's like now, it's a little bit of a stage fright for fear of not coming across as being a little bit intelligent or funny or something like that, you know, or not saying the right things. So rather than, okay, I'd rather than not say anything and be like a wallflower.

• 19:06Elizabeth Day?

  Well, let me reassure you that you're coming across exceptionally. But I'm aware that you're speaking in a second language. So do you still have stage fright in your native language?

• 19:16Speaker 00

  Hell, yes.

• 19:17Elizabeth Day?

  Right.

• 19:19Speaker 00

  It's just about being on the stage and suddenly I remembered, I think it came out very clearly when I received my Golden Globe. Are you allowed to swear?

• 19:28Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, I welcome swearing. I love swearing.

• 19:31Speaker 00

  Golden Globes was the first big nomination for me personally as an actress by your own, by your peers, right? Just to get the nomination was, you were so blown away. And you, you think, I mean, at that point, we all just went, just to be nominated, I'm already over the moon. Right? And you don't have expectations, even though you pray quietly. Right? And then you think, oh shoot, if they really actually call my name, what the hell, man? I'll be so scared to go up on stage. So when they did call my name, I walked up on stage and, and suddenly you, your, everything goes zing. I forget my name. I don't know what I'm there for.

• 20:14Speaker 00

  And the first word that came out of my mouth was shit.

• 20:20Speaker 00

  And then I realized, everybody went, oh, like that. And then I turned around and go, oh my God, you're not supposed to say that. And I turned back around and said, fuck.

• 20:32Speaker 00

  So that was my big intro and how I realized you still, you still have stage fright. And then it's, it's constant because even when I go on press tours and things like that, when you have to go on stage and when they say, say a few things, say something like that. I would agonize, like the night before, I won't be able to sleep. If I, just because I know I have to go on stage. So you prep yourself, you prep yourself, you keep prepping yourself, prepping yourself to make sure, just to say that one or two sentences without, my heart goes. And one time it was hysterical. I held my arms out like that. Luckily I had a big gown on.

• 21:17Speaker 00

  And I, oh my God, I was sweating. It was just dripping because I was so scared.

• 21:25Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. Well, how did you cope with the Oscars then?

• 21:28Speaker 00

  Not well. Do you saw?

• 21:30Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, you were so beautiful though. I love that speech. It was me. I would never have known.

• 21:33Speaker 00

  I think it's because it came from here.

• 21:38Speaker 00

  It really did.

• 21:39Elizabeth Day?

  From your heart.

• 21:40Speaker 00

  First of all, of course, Asians that would come up and say, you've got to win this for us. You've got to win. And then you're standing there going, um, I will try my very best. I don't know how I got it, but you know, I hope. And it really resonated to me how much it meant, not just to, uh, in, in, in America, but globally to Asians.

• 22:08Elizabeth Day?

  I know. I, it's so beautiful, Michelle. Cause it's also the role you played was so special in that respect as well, for so many reasons.

• 22:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:19Elizabeth Day?

  It's so rare that a woman of a certain age, Evelyn, who owns a laundromat, who is a Chinese-American immigrant, gets to be a lead.

• 22:29Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 22:30Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 22:30Speaker 00

  Right? I mean, um, when we, that's true. I mean, she is, if you go into Chinatown in any of the major cities, they're there everywhere. They're not seen, they're not heard, they're not actually, um, given any attention. You know, they're almost like voiceless. And at that time, when they had the China hate thing, it was like, this is wrong. How do you, you know, just do that to another fellow human being? So it was very interesting. And I think what it was very important at that time was like, these immigrants have been in America forever. Right? That's what America is made of, immigrants. Yes, that's how it is.

• 23:16Speaker 00

  And to be able to tell a story that is about not just a period piece, not like Crouching Tiger, where, you know, not like Shogun, not like something like that, where it's about the periods past, gone, long past. But today, that's so relevant to all of us, to be included, to be, um, seen, to be embraced for our differences. And, um, that was indeed very, very special. And I remember when, uh, the Daniels, when they wrote the script, she was called Michelle Wang.

• 23:52Speaker 00

  And the first thing I said to them, no, you do not call her Michelle. Because Evelyn, she is her own person.

• 24:01Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 24:01Speaker 00

  And she deserves to be seen and heard as who she is. Because every time you say Michelle, you would think of, oh, is Michelle Yeoh trying to do this as another person? And I always believed that that is how we should take that approach. Is that we have to be honest. We have to be brave enough to say, well, you know, some people might not like it or appreciate it. But guess what? It's a reality, it's a fact, and we should see it. If you don't see it, you will never understand it.

• 24:29Elizabeth Day?

  So, so powerful.

• 24:31Speaker 00

  I'm very, very.

• 24:33Elizabeth Day?

  Now, I, I felt it too. And it's so moving hearing you speak about it. I wonder if I could take you back to growing up in Malaysia, surrounded by this beautiful nature.

• 24:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:45Elizabeth Day?

  Did you always feel, did you have an instinct that your life was going to be meaningful in some way?

• 24:52Speaker 00

  Hmm, I always felt loved. I always felt happy. Malaysia is a very beautiful country in the sense that it is very multiracial. So to be honest, when I was growing up, we grew up with Chinese, with the Malays, with the Indians, with the expats. So we embraced our different cultures. We celebrated all our different cultures. So when I was growing up, I'd never thought that one day I would be on the silver screen. My mother is, my mother again, she was a big factor in the, why I love movies so much.

• 25:31Speaker 00

  Because as a child, we would go to all kinds of movies, like Indian movies, Malay movies, Chinese movies, in all the different languages. Horror stories, like I grew up with Dracula, okay?

• 25:45Speaker 00

  I think she traumatized me. But so and as I was watching the screen, I never thought one day that's what I want to do. I want to be able to to to do that. It never crossed my mind. I was very single minded in the fact that I wanted to do ballet. I wanted to be in the world of dance. I wanted to have my own school. I would go back to Malaysia. I I come from Epo, this very small mining city and start my own have my own school. So that was my dream at that point, you know, we are I'm a small town girl. But my dad, he made us think wider. He made us think beyond the borders.

• 26:29Speaker 00

  He made us believe that, you know, the most important thing for is education in his mind. But he never limited us to say he's a lawyer by profession. Um, that you have to be a, I think a lot of, especially for Chinese Asian families, like you have to be a lawyer, a doctor, an engineer, you know, an academic, something that is stable. Then you don't have to worry about making money and, you know, you'll be able to pay the rent or, you know, have a stable life. Um, and he, whatever you want to study is your choice because at the end of the day, it's your life. And at that point, even during my divorce, he was the one who stood up for me.

• 27:13Speaker 00

  And yeah, he's, you know, he turned around and say, no, if he is not the right man for you and he doesn't appreciate you the way he should. And it's it wasn't Dixon's fault or my fault, but it was just a reality of the the situation as such. Um, and my dad was like, this is your home, you know, that's whatever you decide to do is your choice. And so he always instilled that in us even as a child. So I went, oh, then I want to go to England because ballet was from the Royal Academy of Dance, right? It's from England. And so my dream was like, I want to go to England to to see it for real, to the Royal National Theatre, to do all that. And he goes like, okay.

• 27:58Speaker 00

  And in fact, when I was offered a contract in Hong Kong, after all the injury, going back to Malaysia, winning the title, and then I still wanted to go back to England. And then I was offered to do a commercial with Jackie Chan in Hong Kong. And while I was there, the film company offered me a contract. And I was twenty two, you know, I thought, no, my parents would definitely not, I think they would not agree because I would be by myself there. I held the contract in my hand for like two days. I was like, how do I go to my dad and say, I would like to try this? Because it's not a subject that I studied.

• 28:42Speaker 00

  I've never been in a movie before. I've never, I didn't study it. In the end, you know, you gather up all the courage. And it's like, what's the worst thing that can happen? No, right? No, okay. So I went to him and he looked at the contract. The first thing he said, oh, this is like a slave contract. Then I said, that's why I need you, Dad. But he didn't say no. He turned around and said, when do you want to go? So that's how I started my career in Hong Kong.

• 29:12Elizabeth Day?

  That's how it all started.

• 29:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:14Elizabeth Day?

  Well, you started this career, you were cast in this commercial Jackie Chan, then that led on to your movie career.

• 29:19Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 29:20Elizabeth Day?

  And that brings us on to your second failure, which actually is a sort of failure of a system, which is that you kept being offered very stereotypical roles in Hollywood.

• 29:30Speaker 00

  Yes, in Hong Kong at the beginning.

• 29:32Elizabeth Day?

  Okay, tell me about this.

• 29:33Speaker 00

  It's similar, I think, everywhere, you know, how they, they put all of us women in a certain box, especially. And in Hong Kong at that time, action movies were predominantly all about the guys and saving the damsel who are in distress. And then you sit there and you go like, why do I need saving? What is it about that that's so? It's okay, it's heroic for the guys, but for us, it's kind of boring.

• 30:00Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 30:01Speaker 00

  So, and I was very fortunate, there were some uh smart uh successful women in Hong Kong and the business. And they all turned around and said, it's true, you know, we bring a girl who is not from Hong Kong. And yet you want to put her in the box exactly like how we put all the other of our girl, our girls. So then this, and I said, I would love to try action. Because the first movie, I played the damsel in distress. I watched the guys, you know, do their stunts and action sequences, the incredible Sam Ohong and George Lam. And then I realized, this is very much like dance. It's choreography, it's movement, it's speed, it's the dynamics of the body and all those kind of things.

• 30:43Speaker 00

  So then when I said that, I think the company was also uh, it was a budding, it was new, fairly new company. And uh so they were also trying out things. And in Hong Kong, at in that golden era of filmmaking, it was action movies, comedies were the the biggest hits. So my Chinese, my Cantonese, and I don't read uh Chinese at all. So I didn't, how could I do comedy without being able to say the language? So I felt that my physicality would be something I could tap on uh to give me a leg up. You know, find a way rather than be the damsel in distress, that was my key point. And so they said, okay, we'll let her try, if it doesn't work, we'll put her back in the box.

• 31:28Elizabeth Day?

  You're so cool. So so then, what what was it like working with Jackie Chan? What's the best piece of advice Jackie Chan gave you?

• 31:35Speaker 00

  No. Jackie is is, he's he's a little macho, you know? He really believes that women needs to be protected. So when we did our our movie together, he was always been like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, no, no, don't let her jump on the motorcycle. Because partly, which to be fair to him, when I took that motorcycle and jumped on the train.

• 31:57Elizabeth Day?

  One of the most legendary stunts of all time that you did yourself.

• 32:00Speaker 00

  Now I would never do it again. I mean, at that time, we did stunts that I, when we were dubbing the movie. In English, I go like, ow, what was I thinking? And you're hanging in the side of the van, it was for real. And the number of times the near misses, the cars come at you. At that point, and because Jackie was thinking, if you do this, I have to do that. Just to be on the same, and it's true, right? After all, he is poor Jackie. So I always tease him, it was like, well, I'm doing it.

• 32:34Elizabeth Day?

  He made it difficult for him.

• 32:35Speaker 00

  Why should I make it easy for him?

• 32:36Elizabeth Day?

  Exactly. So that was just the early days of your career. Then you were known as Michelle Khan, is that right?

• 32:42Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 32:43Elizabeth Day?

  And and then you got cast in Tomorrow Never Dies. And and I hear that Barbara Broccoli gave you advice.

• 32:50Speaker 00

  Yes, yes, because it was really funny. She was, we, I was on holiday in Italy. And so Barbara said, she will come and meet me, have a first meet. And actually, I love this woman to death. She really is such a champion for for women. I was traveling with a group of friends and my surname is Yo, right? So she went to the desk and said, okay, Michelle Khan. And they go like, Khan what? Who? So for the longest of time, she went through all the, so she checked, she googled, it was King Khan. Because my Chinese name is Yo Chu King. And we always put our surnames first, which is Yo. In England, they would put Chu King Yo, right?

• 33:34Speaker 00

  So when I was studying here, I didn't have Michelle. They, my friends called me Chu, which is short for Chu King. Right? Chu was easier, they'd be like teasing me, go, ah Chu. So everybody knew my name and remembered it. So finally, we found each other. And when I eventually got cast to play Way Lin in Tomorrow Never Dies. And Barbara and I have become fast and firm friends from then. And she said, what's all this nonsense about Khan? And it's not even your name, why did, why would you have that name? And I go, well, because I was advised when I was in Hong Kong. Because in Hong Kong, they call me by my Chinese name, Yang Zhi King.

• 34:17Speaker 00

  But once the name had to go on the posters for Europe and for elsewhere, for distribution outside of Hong Kong. When they put Yo Chu King, everybody goes like, what is this? Actually, okay, sidebar, I am so proud of my Korean friends who have stuck to their Korean names. You know, kudos to you because that's your identity, that's who you are. But you know, when I was first in Hong Kong, I had to listen to advice from people who have been in the business, who are in the marketing field. And so then we said, how about King? But King, no, that doesn't sound like your name. Yo, I said, yo is a one syllable. How difficult it is, is it?

• 34:58Speaker 00

  It's just that when you look at it, a lot of people go like, yo, and I go, oh, my God. They really destroyed my name. So that's why they said, okay, let's have a Chinese sounding Khan, right? So I was like, okay, if they, because you never get to to go to Europe to promote your films at that time. It was all focused really mainly in Asia. And it was for the first time I saw my name and it was next to this voluptuous woman with long wavy hair, looking very Caucasian, actually. Didn't look like me at all. And that was my name, Michelle Khan.

• 35:39Speaker 00

  And we're going like, oh, because they had to market it in such a way that it was attractive.

• 35:45Elizabeth Day?

  What a strange experience for you.

• 35:47Speaker 00

  Oh, yes. But you know, I think at that point, the people who were marketing the film, they wanted to be included, they wanted, that was the best way to sell the movie.

• 35:59Elizabeth Day?

  Different times.

• 36:01Speaker 00

  Oh, thank God, those things are over. Thank goodness.

• 36:04Elizabeth Day?

  Tomorrow Never Dies, one of my favorite Bond movies, and you reclaim your name on the advice of Barbara Broccoli. But then what happened after that? Because the roles you were then being offered after Tomorrow Never Dies. Pigeon told you, didn't they? And for two years, you didn't, you didn't accept any of them.

• 36:22Speaker 00

  Yes, you're right, because you know, after a Bond movie, you would imagine, and yes, a lot of things come your way. But at that point in Hollywood, it was still, how many faces do you remember of that era?

• 36:37Speaker 00

  That was maybe the last emperor, that was like, and then the Joy Luck Club, which was more than twenty, thirty years ago. That had, you know, I mean, the people who really did very well was like Lucy Liu, because she's amazing. But it was so far and in between. So the roles that Asian actresses, or looking like me, or actors even, were offered were, because that was the first time when it struck me, suddenly I was a minority. I never, growing up in Malaysia, going into Hong Kong and all those kind of things, it's not a word that we, we even use. You know, when I first arrived there and go like, oh, you're a minority, I'm like, what does that even mean?

• 37:21Speaker 00

  You know how many billions of Asians there are around the world?

• 37:25Speaker 00

  And how many there are in the US itself, it's like, at that time, if you think about it, there were no pairing of what they would say to minorities. And I had a good friend who was a incredible director, and he said to me, honestly, I would love to cast you, but because once we cast a minority who's the lead, you have no chance.

• 37:51Elizabeth Day?

  Wow, so this is, this is the nineteen nineties we're talking about. So what were the kind of roles you were being offered?

• 37:58Speaker 00

  The very stereotypical, they had to find a reason why an Asian person would be in that role. So easy, Chinatown, right? Or a waiter in a Chinese restaurant. So it always has to be why explained. The most important thing is to be seen doing. Ordinary things, normal things, and even positions of power. In the past, we had to fight for women to be in positions of power. For the longest of time, we didn't even get a chance to have a seat at the table. And we had to fight to change the whole dynamics, the whole way of thinking. And it's an ongoing battle, it's not, it's not, it's not a done deal.

• 38:38Speaker 00

  I mean, when we made Crazy Rich Asians, the last all Asian cast was Joy Luck Club, which was twenty six years ago. And the Crazy Rich Asians came out in twenty eighteen. So can you imagine that, that beating rom com, all Asian cast? No chance. But we did it because I think our audience is much more embracing and willing and wanting to see all, to see their friends, their people up there. And that's the only way you can have a true, real exchange of culture and acceptance.

• 39:17Elizabeth Day?

  Do you know, Oscar winning actress, Michelle Yeoh superstar? Do you experience racism?

• 39:26Speaker 00

  I would be lying if I say no. I will, I'll put it delicately because they don't want, they dare not show us very direct racism because of the position I'm in right now. And maybe five years ago, even then, you would face it, you know, you, you'd see the people go like, what's this Asian person doing here? I think the distribution of wealth has helped as well. But unfortunately, it's quite apparent still today when you have, in America, when you hear of Asian older women get punched in the face for just walking down the street?

• 40:11Speaker 00

  And just because, you know, young girls or boys get harassed and bullied because they're Asians? I think. I don't understand, you know, to date, why it's still happening. So that's why when a movie like what we've done with Wicked comes out, where we encourage people to see it's beautiful to be different. Because that's how we are all made. All of us are different. And we should not be, I think the worst, one of our worst human traits is we're judgmental. We like to judge. We like to be like above, I don't know, I don't know why. We always think that we have to be better and be able to tell the other person or put them down or whatever it is.

• 40:56Speaker 00

  I think that is something I hope that we all learn, that an act of kindness or compassion goes a long, long way in our world and we are in so desperate need of that.

• 41:12Elizabeth Day?

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• 41:57Elizabeth Day?

  and some rogue design choices. If you're ready to hear the of your first sale today, head over to Shopify.co.uk/fail to start your free trial today. That's right, start your free trial at Shopify.co.uk/fail.

• 42:16Speaker 02

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• 42:45Elizabeth Day?

  Your final failure is a specific stunt accident.

• 42:49Speaker 00

  Oh, I don't see it as a failure. I think I see it, you see, um, don't mistake that for being reckless. You know, we as, because I still love doing my own stunts and I, and I still do today. Now I am not afraid to turn around and say, let my son double do it, you know? That's why she's here for her. Um, and to be honest, uh, because you're only physically capable of certain things, right? At the end of the day, you're an actor. And I remember even when we were doing Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and Ang Lee was always, he would really get pissed off when people say, oh, she's a stunt act, you know, she's an action actor.

• 43:33Speaker 00

  And he would go like, no, she's an actress. Okay? It's just because she knows how to do some action. It doesn't make her just a stunned actor. With, with time, I've learned that you have to protect yourself and remember this is for entertainment. None of us should ever get hurt. And unfortunately, one of our, our movies, and how ironic, it was my kudos, my homage to the stunt people because I was playing a stunt woman. And I wanted to go behind the scenes and show the audiences, you know, those, and those people that makes us look so good. That it's a tough life and especially in Hong Kong at that time, because the stunts were real.

• 44:17Speaker 00

  I mean, I used to hate the horror stories where they said, we know that someone's going to get hurt. The van is ready to take him or her to the hospital. And you go, but, but why? That was the safety measures were just not up to par. Unlike what it is today, thank God. It was so bad. I thought, everybody thought I broke my back.

• 44:39Elizabeth Day?

  What do you mind saying what happened? Is it a traumatizing thing to?

• 44:42Speaker 00

  So in this scene, the stunt woman was had left that kind of career because she felt it was going nowhere. She was getting hurt and all this kind of things. But then she failed in her business and she had to come back to do stunt work again. And Sam Ohong, bless him, he's the actor, but also the mentor of this stunt woman. So he knew that she had to get back on the horse and do the stunt and don't hesitate. One thing you should never do is hesitate. When you agree to do it, you have to be committed and see it all the way through. Even if you're hurt, you have to see it all the way through. And I think one of the best stories is Tom Cruise.

• 45:24Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 45:24Speaker 00

  You remember when he did that jump?

• 45:25Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 45:26Speaker 00

  He broke his ankle.

• 45:27Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 45:28Speaker 00

  But when he got up, he limped out of it. Can you imagine if he broke it and he went ow, ow, ow, ow? That couldn't have been used. So in that way, if you if you punch someone accidentally, which you shouldn't, you should see it through because unfortunately it's done.

• 45:44Elizabeth Day?

  I love you.

• 45:47Speaker 00

  So in this scene, I was big stunned was her jumping off and Samo pushes her off this. And it's in a flyover and she lands on a big truck that's moving by. It's like a thirty foot fall. And, you know, we do it with wire, land, everything is good. So now we do have to do a close up. So it's off maybe a little higher than here, about fifteen feet. And all I do is that was the mistake because the camera was close up. So it wasn't about the stunt. All it was was like he pushes me and I fall off frame like this. But because they were filming from down here, I had a longer way to go.

• 46:29Speaker 00

  And my bad was like when he pushed, I tumbled, but I was still trying to give to act.

• 46:36Elizabeth Day?

  Right.

• 46:36Speaker 00

  Instead of going, no, what you have to flip. And so I landed head into and we don't have like the the airbags.

• 46:48Speaker 00

  We have cardboard boxes and like a couple of mattresses on top. And in fact, if you land like this on the mattress, it's like this, it's solid, right? So all I felt was my head going into here. My legs came from behind me and went. Exactly.

• 47:11Elizabeth Day?

  They hit your back?

• 47:12Speaker 00

  They hit the top of my head.

• 47:14Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 47:14Speaker 00

  Yes. And so when I and everybody, my poor director, Anne Hoey, the incredible Anne Hoey. This was so poor, Anne. I convinced her to do an action film, but she's a dramatic, amazing drama director. So this was her first thing into the action with some kind of action. She was literally standing, I landed here and she was standing where you are. And I turned around and your whole body is on fire. And I saw her and she was there just in shock with tears streaming down her face. And poor Samo, he was up in the flyover about fifteen feet away. And I heard him call me by my own name, not Michelle, but Chu Kang.

• 47:59Speaker 00

  And I thought, oh, shoot, something is really.

• 48:03Elizabeth Day?

  So your body is on fire.

• 48:05Speaker 00

  On fire. Everybody thought, this is it.

• 48:09Elizabeth Day?

  You made it through and then you were in a full body cast?

• 48:12Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 48:12Elizabeth Day?

  For how, for how long?

• 48:13Speaker 00

  Oh, my God. It was, it was quite a few months because, you know, the cracked ribs and all that is nothing. But all the, fortunately, I was so flexible. I think if I wasn't so flexible, I would have, at the back, would have just. And so it was a, and I, at that point, you view, you review. And my best girlfriends, because I was in Hong Kong, oh, my God, they would march into the hospital room and just gave me a yearful. It was like, why are you doing this? Why do you need to do this? Look at you now. We can't help you. You can't help yourself. You know, there could be a lot worse. And I'm like, how about some sympathy?

• 49:02Speaker 00

  But they were right. And then you think like, you're right. You're absolutely right. I should not go and do these kind of risky things. It was a little bit of a turning point. It's like, maybe I should skew away from doing movies or, you know, find some other things.

• 49:22Speaker 00

  And you know, when you're in the hospital and when you've got all those drugs in you, it's depressing. You know, and your body is just going like, I can't do anything. I can't even lift my arm or my leg or anything like that. It was not a happy time. But then someone visited you, didn't you? Yes. Who visited you? Quentin Tarantino. I, today, I have to thank him. I have to thank him for being so relentless. Because, you know, he came to Hong Kong and he said, I want to meet da, da, da, da, da, da. And one of them was me. And I, I am a huge fan of his. Any time I would have, you know, wherever he was, I would have gone to see him.

• 50:03Speaker 00

  But I'm, you know, you're in a cast, you're thinking, and your mindset is also, I know. But he was like, just give me five minutes. I just want to say hello, da, da, da, da, da. So finally, he came to the house. And I remember I was sitting downstairs in our living room and he came bounding, literally, you know, he's tall and striding down the staircase. He's like, Michelle. He picks up a pillow, drops them at my, I'm sitting there and he plops himself down and he starts talking about, you know, how much he loved my work and what, you know, how it was, da. And he literally, frame for frame, he reminded me of some of the stunts that I did and all that.

• 50:44Speaker 00

  So the next thing I knew was we, he made me realize why I loved filmmaking so much. It's a passion. It's not just a job. Like, okay, just. Tailor your passion.

• 50:57Elizabeth Day?

  Gosh, I could listen to you for days. You've had such an incredible life and it feels like you're only just getting started still.

• 51:05Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 51:05Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, yes. I mean, if I could ask you to look back at these three specific failures from your vantage point now, what do you think they taught you?

• 51:16Speaker 00

  When I was coming on to your program, that was the one thing. When I look at these three things, I go like, they're not failures, you know? Yes, it's something that happened in your journey in your life. Like we say, there are ups and there are downs. But each of this segment taught me to be more resilient, taught me to be smarter, taught me how, yes, there are certain things that I will have to continue to deal with, to overcome it, you know? And there are certain things that you go like, it's okay, moving on.

• 51:45Elizabeth Day?

  Always in motion.

• 51:46Speaker 00

  Always, yes. I think when, I don't think the time for me yet is to come to a standstill. I still think there are so many different things that I'm still learning and hoping to do.

• 52:03Elizabeth Day?

  Do you think that's what keeps you so young at heart whilst also being a wise soul? Do you think that's partly why this sort of zest that you have for discovery, for learning, for forward motion, that's important?

• 52:17Speaker 00

  I think, I think, yes, that has a great deal to do with it. I think having the right people around you has a lot to do with it because they inspire me, they help me to see things in a different way. Having people who love you for who you are. I mean, that is, like my husband, he doesn't try to change me. So I have people around me who have great, we have great respect for each other. We cajole each other, we bully each other to have the best outcome. And I think that is very important, that you find your people. Because, you know, you don't walk alone. Please don't walk alone.

• 53:00Speaker 00

  You don't walk with people who respect you, love you, and you have a much better time.

• 53:07Elizabeth Day?

  Michelle Yeoh, I am so thrilled to have met you. Thank you for coming on How To Fail.

• 53:12Speaker 00

  Thank you, thank you for having me. This was fun.

• 53:16Elizabeth Day?

  Please do follow How To Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.