#821: My Two-Year Secret Project, COYOTE — The Strategies and Tactics for Building a Bestseller from Nothing with Elan Lee of Exploding Kittens

This is a very special episode for me. My brand-new card game, COYOTE https://coyotegame.com, created in collaboration with Elan Lee and Exploding Kittens, is here. It is available in ~8,000 locations worldwide, including Walmart, Target, Amazon, and many others. Learn more: https://coyotegame.com. This episode is brought to you by: Gamma https://gamma.app AI design partner for effortless presentations, websites, social media posts, and more: https://gamma.app (Use code TIM at checkout for 30% off any plan.) Shopify https://shopify.com/tim global commerce platform, providing tools to start, grow, market, and manage a retail business: https://shopify.com/tim (one-dollar-per-month trial period) Wealthfront http://wealthfront.com/Tim high-yield cash account: https://Wealthfront.com/Tim https://wealthfront.com/Tim New clients get 3.30% base APY from program banks + additional 0.75% boost for 3 months on your uninvested cash (max $150k balance). Terms and conditions apply. The Cash Account offered by Wealthfront Brokerage LLC (“WFB”) member FINRA/SIPC, not a bank. The base APY as of 1/30/26 is representative, can change, and requires no minimum. Tim Ferriss, a non-client, receives compensation from WFB for advertising and holds a non-controlling equity interest in the corporate parent of WFB, which creates a conflict of interest. Individual experiences and outcomes will differ. Instant withdrawals may be limited by your receiving firm and other factors. Investment advisory services provided by Wealthfront Advisers LLC, an SEC-registered investment adviser. Securities investments: not bank deposits, not bank-guaranteed or FDIC-insured, and may lose value. Timestamps: [00:00:00] Start. [00:05:21] Coyote: a game 47 years in the making. [00:08:41] Who is Elan Lee? [00:09:37] How our motivations behind game creation intersect. [00:12:41] The nutshell view of pitching a game to a retailer. [00:14:40] Salesmanship is a learnable skill, but Elan’s a natural. [00:15:53] Why I’ve always wanted to make my own game and how development began in earnest. [00:26:00] First contact with Elan and our fast-forged, fun-focused friendship. [00:32:28] The Hanabi and Rock, Paper, Scissors-inspired Toronto trip breakthrough. [00:39:40] Early prototyping and testing. [00:45:34] The Zero Effect. [00:47:37] Recommended game design rationales, resources, and reading. [00:53:00] The beginner’s mind approach to writing effective game instructions. [00:56:26] A simple fact: less complication = more fun. [00:57:49] Cooperative vs. competitive play. [00:58:24] Leveling the playing field with attack cards and sabotage mechanics. [01:01:34] Tricking people into cognitively bettering themselves by gaming. [01:08:04] Finding the sweet spot. [01:10:44] It takes a lot of work to make a game effortlessly fun. [01:13:40] How many games does Exploding Kittens publish per year? [01:14:36] Exploding Kittens’ number-one seller was designed by Elan’s four-year-old daughter. [01:18:30] Prototypes and pitching. [01:22:26] Improving on the industry’s fundamentally flawed testing procedure. [01:24:58] Analyzing passing/failure with play testers’ video and feedback. [01:28:41] Risks of internal testing. [01:31:47] Coyote’s first positive signs from the wild. [01:34:22] Online vs. physical store sales and tweaking variables to gauge market interest. [01:41:22] What a successful line review looks like. [01:43:51] Line review hoops through which lesser-proven companies have to hop. [01:48:04] Elan’s field-tested line review meeting strategies. [01:54:15] The importance of finding proper agent representation. [01:59:35] In modern marketing, social media (especially short-form video) is king. [02:04:48] The best and worst ways for an aspiring designer to sell a game. [02:13:05] Crowdfunding pros and cons, and Kickstarter alternatives. [02:19:57] Dealing with deal terms. [02:23:56] The Exploding Kittens attitude toward rare partnerships. [02:25:45] The types of games that capture Elan’s attention. [02:27:40] Common game design mistakes. [02:29:49] How we tried to avoid these mistakes when packaging Coyote. [02:33:55] Self-publishing vs. conventional publishing. [02:38:40] Business considerations and risks. [02:44:59] Parting thoughts and a tantalizing offer. * For show notes and past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show https://tim.blog/podcast, please visit tim.blog/podcast https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description. For deals from sponsors of The Tim Ferriss Show https://tim.blog/podcast, please visit tim.blog/podcast-sponsors https://tim.blog/podcast-sponsors Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (5-Bullet Friday) at tim.blog/friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/. For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts https://tim.blog/transcripts. Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books https://tim.blog/books. 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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Tim Ferriss?

  Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. Welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show. Boy, this is a special one. I'll keep my intro brief as my conversation with Alon Lee, which you're about to hear, covers the whole backstory. This is a very, very, very fun episode for me, one I've been looking forward to publishing for months, and actually about two years, because my brand-new card game Coyote, created in collaboration with Alon and Exploding Kittens, which started with this podcast, is now a national bestseller. It's everywhere, just launched 8,000 locations worldwide, including Walmart, Target, Amazon, and gajillion others. It's a very fast-paced card game, takes minutes to learn, hard to

• 0:41Tim Ferriss?

  master, hat tip Nolan Bushnell, and 300 million-plus social views of gameplay now online. Everything's going bananas. And please check it out. Please, please check it out. If I've done anything that you've benefited from, coyotegame.com. And there's a lot under the hood that I think you might find of interest, even if you're not a gamer, you don't think about yourself as playing games. coyotegame.com, super, super satisfying. The entire team at Exploding Kittens is incredible. They're rock stars, a pleasure to work with. So, enjoy my conversation with Alon Lee. We talk about the art of the pitch. We talk about figuring out mass retail. We talk about prototyping. We talk about game development. We talk about the nuts and bolts, behind-the-scenes backstory of creating something like this from nothing. One last

• 1:25Tim Ferriss?

  thing, stick around to the end for a very fun surprise that involves a mystery Hollywood party that you might be able to join. Would love you to join. So, stick around. Please enjoy. Right after, just a few words from the partners who make this podcast possible. If I were to update the four-hour work week, which I get asked to do a lot, I would really only add one thing, and that is a section on AI tools, because for everything I described with virtual assistants and with so much more, you can do with technology immediately. And that can be automated, delegated. There's so much that you can do. And this is also why I recommend this episode's sponsor, Gamma, for creating incredible professional slide decks, better, cheaper, and faster than you ever thought possible.

• 2:10Tim Ferriss?

  It's pretty head spinning. I polled all of you on social, 10 million plus people about Gamma, and some of you called it a game changer, mind blowing, and far and away the best product in the category. Those are all your quotes. With Gamma, you can just drop in an idea and outline a document, PowerPoint, and Gamma will turn it into a stunning, ready to share presentation in seconds. And if you want to turn that into a website or whatever else, again, snap of the fingers and it's done. With more than 50 million users, it's already the most popular AI presentation platform in the world. So stop wasting time dragging stuff around, fidgeting with bullet points, and let Gamma turn your content into high-quality presentations so you

• 2:49Tim Ferriss?

  can spend your time on other things that matter. Explore Gamma today at gamma.app. That's G-A-M-M-A. app. gamma.app. Listeners get 30% off any plan by using promo code TIM at checkout. So use promo code TIM, T-I-M, at gamma.app. Not to be a salty old dog, but then again, that's what I am. But in the early 2000s, back in the day when I was running my own e-commerce business, the tools were atrocious. They tried hard, but man, was it bad. You had to cobble all sorts of stuff together. Huge pain in the ass. I could only dream of a platform like Shopify, which is this episode's sponsor. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world. Believe it or not,

• 3:33Tim Ferriss?

  I got to know them when they had eight or nine employees. And now 10% of all e-commerce in the US is on Shopify. From household names like Mattel and Jimm Shark, to my very own limited edition Cock Punch Coffee. Remember that? Story for another time. Now, back to the early 2000s. Then, nobody even thought of AI. Who could have predicted, even in the last 24 months, the magic that is now possible with AI? Shopify has been ahead of the curve, and they are packed with helpful AI tools that will accelerate everything. Write product descriptions, page headlines, even enhance your product photography. You can get started with your own design studio with hundreds of ready-to-use templates to match your brand's style and create email and

• 4:17Tim Ferriss?

  social media campaigns to get the word out. Wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. Best of all, Shopify expertly handles everything from managing inventory to international shipping, to processing returns and beyond. It's all under one umbrella. And man, oh, man, could I have used that back in the day? And if I ever do something like that again in e-commerce, I will use Shopify. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at Shopify.com/Tim. Why not learn a little bit more? Shopify.com/Tim. One more time. Shopify.com/Tim.

• 4:57Speaker 01

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I ask you a personal question?

• 5:04Tim Ferriss?

  Now would be seen appropriate time.

• 5:08Speaker 01

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 5:20Tim Ferriss?

  Hello, ladies and germs, boys and girls. This is another episode of the Tim Ferriss Show. I am Tim Ferriss and I'm sitting with a friend of mine, who I brought to my podcast with a secret agenda that has ended up two years later with a very, very not so secret for long outcome that we're going to talk about. Alon Lee.

• 5:43Speaker 02

  Thanks.

• 5:43Tim Ferriss?

  Nice to see you again.

• 5:44Speaker 02

  It's nice to see you too. That was a secret agenda. That was a two-year in the making.

• 5:49Tim Ferriss?

  Two years in the making. So what we're going to do in this conversation, and I just hijacked his bio because I've had too much caffeine, so I'm going to let him do the self-intro in a second. But we're going to give you a peek behind the curtain, under the hood, open the kimono, choose your metaphor. We're going to talk about the creative process, the development process, thinking about distribution, retail, all of these things, which I have not heard discussed anywhere else in depth.

• 6:17Speaker 02

  He buried the lead. All of that stuff of, of a game that we created that...

• 6:27Tim Ferriss?

  From the very beginning was something I've wanted to do my whole life, which is create a game. I was raised, protected in some ways by Dungeons and Dragons as a kid. It was my refuge from bullying and also just the straight boredom of most of my schooling at the time. And that immersive experience, the ability to get lost in a world of imagination and fun and laughter and emotion was so incredibly important, it was so formative for me, that the seed was planted really early. And I think you know this, because I probably sent you a photograph of this at one point. I still have all of my modules.

• 7:09Tim Ferriss?

  I have the Player's Handbook, first edition, Dungeon Master's Guide, all of the dice, everything from when I was a kid. I've kept it to this day.

• 7:20Speaker 02

  I love this. I love this. But, hold on.

• 7:23Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 7:24Speaker 02

  If you're not gonna say it, I'm gonna say it.

• 7:25Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 7:25Speaker 02

  Tim Ferriss made a game.

• 7:28Tim Ferriss?

  I did!

• 7:29Speaker 02

  That's amazing!

• 7:30Tim Ferriss?

  It took me 47 years, but...

• 7:31Speaker 02

  That's huge!

• 7:32Tim Ferriss?

  Here we are. So the game, I'll just show it to camera. For people who want a visual, who are not watching this, if you're listening, you can go to tim.blog/kyoody. So I'm giving a bit of what you might call foreshadowing in the biz. But this is the game. It is a card game. It's called Coyote. That name did not come easily. We went through about 573 different names and lots of testing, and we'll talk about some of that. But this is the game. And it's effectively, I'd like to hear your pitch.

• 8:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:06Tim Ferriss?

  Because we have slightly different approaches.

• 8:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:08Tim Ferriss?

  But I would say it is rock, paper, scissors on steroids. So there are god knows how many, maybe 20 different gestures, something like that.

• 8:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:17Tim Ferriss?

  66 total cards. And you can play cooperatively, where you're all trying to beat the game together, or competitively, where you can sabotage individual players, throw curveballs of all different types. And that relates to the name Coyote. If you think about the trickster mythology associated with Coyote.

• 8:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:39Tim Ferriss?

  We never got to your bio. Who the hell are you?

• 8:41Speaker 02

  Oh, that's the least interesting part of this whole thing.

• 8:44Tim Ferriss?

  I know, but he puts it in perspective and just explain the company a bit, the scope of it, et cetera.

• 8:50Speaker 02

  I love talking about games. I hate talking about myself, so I will try.

• 8:53Tim Ferriss?

  That's why it takes someone like me to force you to do it.

• 8:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay, here we go. My name's Alan Lee. I am the co-creator and CEO of Exploding Kittens. I believe we're the number one independent game studio in the world, something like that. I don't know. We've sold a whole bunch of games. We've sold 60 million games at this point and been running that company for 10 years now. And before that, I was the chief design officer at the Xbox and before that I worked at a pet store.

• 9:20Tim Ferriss?

  And for people who want the full journey, including the sort of magical tinderbox that was Kickstarter way back in the day, how this whole adventure started 10, 10 plus years ago, listen to the first conversation that I did with Alan. I had wanted to make a game and quickly realized that an RPG, something like Dungeons and Dragons, right? Role-playing game was going to be too complicated for me and my friends as adults to play. It would be too hard for me to recruit my friends where you have, let's just say, a full day. Then you have dinner, maybe you have a few drinks, and then you have an hour before people split.

• 10:03Tim Ferriss?

  There's no way I'm going to get someone to build, for instance, you know, like a chaotic, good gray elf. And like, which is sort of was my orientation and work from there. It's just not going to happen.

• 10:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:17Tim Ferriss?

  And meanwhile, about, maybe it was a year or two years before I invited you on the podcast, I found this game, Poetry for Neanderthals. And holy shit, had so much fun with that with my friends. I thought, okay, I think I want to tilt my game dreams, which at that point had no real direction, towards something more casual.

• 10:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:43Tim Ferriss?

  But in the meantime, I'd also been Listening to all sorts of podcasts and so on that we'll get to. But you've explained your background.

• 10:53Speaker 02

  Well, hold on. So what you just described is exactly why I started Exploding Kittens. Because a little bit different. Unlike you, I, when I encounter those crazy two and four and six hour games, I am immediately turned off. Like, I can't focus for that long. I can't understand the rules. If it takes longer than five minutes to explain a game, I am gone. Like, I have no ability to play that game. And so the whole reason I started this company, and I think the whole reason that you made the pivot from giant role-playing games to being interested in the creation of casual, fast-party games, is like this golden rule of like, two minutes to learn, 15 minutes to play.

• 11:35Speaker 02

  Because nothing's at stake there, right? You're gonna learn it, you're either gonna love the game or you're gonna hate it, but whatever. You committed five minutes total to that thing. And I love the games where after the five-minute commitment, you're still gonna play for two hours. But they're gonna be in these little five-minute sessions over and over and over again. And it sounds like that's the experience you had, which makes me so happy. Because that means like, you know, mission accomplished. Like, that's exactly what I wanted to build.

• 12:01Tim Ferriss?

  And we're gonna talk about different rules or tenets that you have. Because what I want to do in this conversation, we're definitely gonna talk about the process of building this game. Because I am really, really happy with it and really proud of it. And we'll have a lot to talk about. But the motivation also of basically showing the cards, I'm gonna use so many mixed metaphors here, is to teach people game design.

• 12:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:31Tim Ferriss?

  And explain why this has possessed such a toehold in my mind for so long.

• 12:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, you went through a journey. And I'm excited, like, looking at that journey through your eyes of... I don't even know what I want to build, but I know I want to build a fun experience that I would enjoy, that my friends would enjoy, all the way through to this thing is at every Walmart and Target in North America. That journey is incredible and you got to see it for the first time. Like you absolutely drank from the fire hose here. This was fun for me because I had to walk you through this, right? You've never sold a game before. So, walking through the process of how you make a game and how you sell a game, it doesn't work the way people think. So retailers have a buyer per category. So if anybody wants to sell something to a retailer, you want something in Target

• 13:24Speaker 02

  or Walmart or Amazon or Barnes and Noble, the way it works is you have to convince the buyer for your category to take your thing, right? They have limited shelf space. It's very precious real estate. So you have to convince them that your thing is better than anybody else's thing. And twice a year, they have these things called line reviews. So the buyers have to buy games for next year, right? They need to put stuff on the shelf. There's only a certain number of meetings they can physically have in a period of time because it's usually one or two or maybe three people. So they take as many meetings as they can. It's usually a dozen, maybe two dozen. And in those meetings-

• 14:03Tim Ferriss?

  In your case with different game-

• 14:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:06Tim Ferriss?

  Manufacturer, different studios.

• 14:07Speaker 02

  Exactly. So they'll take a meeting with Hasbro and they'll take a meeting with Mattel and they'll take, you know, all the big guys. And in those meetings, 20, 30, 50 games are pitched to them in every single one of those meetings. And then they'll make a decision on which ones they're going to purchase and stock for the next year. So that's line review. The tricky parts for line review is one, you gotta do a great job, but even before that, you gotta get that meeting, right? They only have time for a certain number of meetings. So you have to put yourself in a position where you can get in that room.

• 14:38Tim Ferriss?

  All right. So we're going to talk strategy and tactics for line review in a minute because you are, and take this as a compliment, you're one of the best in-person salespeople I've ever seen.

• 14:51Speaker 02

  It'd also be an insult.

• 14:52Tim Ferriss?

  No, it's not.

• 14:53Speaker 02

  I'll take it. I'll take it.

• 14:54Tim Ferriss?

  No, no, it's not an insult. Everybody's in sales, whether they like to admit it or not. Whether you're selling ideas, you're selling a position, a perspective. If you want to call it deal making, this is what I used to say in my class, my guest lecture that I taught for 10 years. Once or twice a year in high tech entrepreneurship, I would start off by saying like, who here wants to be in sales? No hands would go up and I've got, and I would say, well, I've got some good news and I got some bad news.

• 15:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:20Tim Ferriss?

  Bad news is you're all on sales.

• 15:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:22Tim Ferriss?

  Let me explain why. If you want to call it deal making, fine. You're gonna have to negotiate. Like you don't get what you deserve. You get what you negotiate.

• 15:29Speaker 02

  Well said.

• 15:30Tim Ferriss?

  And you get what you can present in a very persuasive way. I was like, good news is you can learn it. This is a coachable, learnable skill, which I completely still believe. There's some people who may have a little bit of extroversion, charismatic, reality distortion filled advantage, but you can become excellent.

• 15:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:49Tim Ferriss?

  Even if you start with zero raw materials.

• 15:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:52Tim Ferriss?

  Okay. So the journey, wanted to make a game my whole life. Okay. But it was this vague, maybe someday, God, wouldn't it be nice?

• 16:00Speaker 02

  Let me just poke at that for a second.

• 16:01Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, sure.

• 16:02Speaker 02

  Why?

• 16:02Tim Ferriss?

  The why is I wanted to imbue someone else's experience with the magic I felt playing D and D.

• 16:14Speaker 02

  Well said.

• 16:15Tim Ferriss?

  That's it.

• 16:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:16Tim Ferriss?

  Or much easier games, right? I used to play, it's such a simple game. I used to play Sorry and Monopoly.

• 16:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:23Tim Ferriss?

  And as a young kid, I just thought Sorry was the most hilarious thing.

• 16:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:27Tim Ferriss?

  When you could look someone in the eyes and go, sorry, and knock their stuff off the board. Didn't always respond well when it happened to me.

• 16:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:35Tim Ferriss?

  But it doesn't have to be the incredibly immersive, complex game that D and D is. Although I still think that is just like Gary Gygax and the team way back in the day. Holy cow. Also, by the way, for people who don't know, Gen Con, huge convention, started out around Lake Geneva.

• 16:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:55Tim Ferriss?

  And was, I believe, created by the TSR guys.

• 16:58Speaker 02

  I believe that's right. Yeah. Gen Con from Lake Geneva and then was the generals convention and now is nothing. Now Gen Con doesn't stand for anything because it's in Indianapolis. But anyway, sorry. There's an aside.

• 17:10Tim Ferriss?

  To the side. So that was the kind of impetus behind wanting to make a game, but it didn't have any form. And then I suppose it was maybe like two and a half, three years ago, I was like.

• 17:21Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, I'd like to actually take a deeper dive here because there are lots of things we have on our, say, list of New Year's resolutions. For instance, like for a long time I had like, develop the side splits like Jean-Claude Van Damme. Never happened, but it was there every fucking year. And it just got punted. I was like, well, it didn't do it. Okay, this year is the year. But there was no plan. There were, there were no deadlines.

• 17:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:48Tim Ferriss?

  There were no constraints.

• 17:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:49Tim Ferriss?

  Right? Which is the power of constraints, which we'll probably talk about. It is so critical. It's not just critical. It is additive to have constraints, which seems like a contradiction, but it's not. Well, I'm sure get to that. So I started looking at different options and the catalyst for this actually was something way back in the day. Some of you will remember called The Legend of Cock Punch. And that was an NFT project. Remember those? Which raised 2 million bucks for fundamental science and like mechanistic studies, basically related to mental health. So all of the proceeds from that, if you want to look it up, it's easy to find Legend of Cock Punch. But all the proceeds went to a nonprofit foundation, which then fund mental health therapeutic

• 18:35Tim Ferriss?

  research and things related to that. But in the process of doing that, I got to with very low stakes. Cause I think it's helpful when possible, especially if you're an intrepid

• 18:47Tim Ferriss?

  beginner wading into unfamiliar creative waters, make the stakes super, super low. And even before this podcast, it's like, okay, this is a very unusual conversation. It's like, look, we're not doing this live. If we really don't like it, we can scrap the whole thing. So like reduce, reduce, reduce the pressure and the stakes until you can get started, right?

• 19:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:09Tim Ferriss?

  With writing, I got the advice long ago, like two crappy pages per day. That's it.

• 19:12Speaker 02

  Love it.

• 19:13Tim Ferriss?

  And then you actually put pen to paper.

• 19:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:17Tim Ferriss?

  Okay.

• 19:17Speaker 02

  But the overlaps are enormous with games.

• 19:19Tim Ferriss?

  But yeah, yeah. Super, super related. Also the iterative process. Using The Legend of Cock Punch as this pretext, basically I started writing fiction. And so I wrote these very, very, turned out to be very involved, very viable sort of fantasy histories and pieces, tying all of these greater houses together and then having these protagonists. The father and then the son who's Tyrolean and yada, yada, yada, yada. And I still think there might be something there. But in the process of creating that, I thought to myself, this would actually make a fantastic game. And it wouldn't have to be as complicated as D and D.

• 20:00Tim Ferriss?

  But you would have allies, you would have age old enmities, you would have different strengths, certain strengths that cancel out other strengths, weaknesses that can be taken advantage of. And that led me to start listening to a podcast called Think Like a Game Designer with Justin Gary, which is outstanding. Recommend people check it out. And a lot of the focus there, not entirely, but a lot of the focus there was on trading card games, alternately called collectible card games, I guess Wizards of the Coast, who created Magic the Gathering, patented and trademarked one of them. So they seem to be used interchangeably. But Justin, also a former high level competitive Magic the Gathering player,

• 20:45Tim Ferriss?

  has a lot of knowledge around that world. He's developed some incredibly successful games in that genre where you're building a deck, you're buying certain cards or decks with the hopes of getting certain cards and assembling your toolkit, basically. And that was initially where my mind went in terms of game concept. But I realized a few things really quickly. Number one, I was a D and D guy, which predated Magic the Gathering. My brother was a Magic the Gathering guy, but I've never really played Magic.

• 21:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:17Tim Ferriss?

  And when I began to delve into it, I was like, you know what? I would like to think of this as D and D lite, but this is incredibly nuanced.

• 21:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:25Tim Ferriss?

  Right? To be good at this.

• 21:26Speaker 02

  Oh, for sure.

• 21:26Tim Ferriss?

  It is incredibly nuanced. And also, if you're against someone who is really experienced or just has their mind wired for it, you are going to be obliterated.

• 21:36Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 21:36Tim Ferriss?

  And that's what happened to me, playing a friend of mine. Kudos to Mike, just got slayed. And God bless Mike. He's like a number of my friends who just kind of want to watch you die slowly in this agonizing, ill-fated gameplay where you're kind of whimpering along until they...

• 21:56Speaker 02

  You play a card, yeah, isn't this cute? You think you got to watch this?

• 21:59Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah, which is just not really my thing. So I thought to myself, okay. Looking at some of the casual games I really like, there is an opportunity, and this will come back later, for the underdog or the person who is behind to win. It is skill-based, but there's an element of chance. And this is going to come back. So then, poetry for Neanderthals. I don't know how I found it initially, frankly. I think I probably went into a game shop and I was like, hey, this relates to why as an adult, I want to spend less time in front of screens. And ultimately, if I look back and do this thing every year called a past year review, people can find it online, you can read all about it and do it yourself.

• 22:44Tim Ferriss?

  You don't have to buy anything. Past year review, where I look at the peak positive and negative emotional experiences of the past year. I go through my whole calendar. Sometimes I'll go through my photos, sometimes I'll go through my text messages or my sent folder in the inbox. And lo and behold, and this is not a revelation for some people, but the activities did not matter as much as the people. So then the question is, how do I create different contexts for interacting with, let's just say, my 10 or 15 closest friends? Some of that is doing things outside in the wilderness that are active and so on, but that's a heavy lift. That's a heavier lift than playing a casual game.

• 23:29Tim Ferriss?

  So it's like, if I'm here in Austin, where we are right now, and my friends or a bunch of my friends come in for South by Southwest, and I manage to get them together for one night. What can we play that will get us off of our goddamn phones and deepen our relationship and create memories that we can hold on to, that will stick around? That's it. That's it, right? And then we had our conversation, and that's kind of when everything, I guess, kicked off. Just a couple of things that we should mention also. After our conversation, when, I think very shyly, I must have reached out to you at some point shortly thereafter, and I was kind of like...

• 24:11Tim Ferriss?

  Hey guy, not sure if this would be interesting, but maybe kinda sorta, do you wanna talk about maybe making a game together or something?

• 24:20Speaker 02

  I remember this exact conversation, yeah. It's like asking me out on a first date.

• 24:25Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, like scratching my head, looking at the ground. And that's how the whole thing got kicked off. And I wanna mention something related to that, which was for the last probably three years, my New Year's resolutions have been very broad, but they're pretty specific. So I had two. One is doing more delegation, which is figure it out delegation. So what that means is, rather than doing what I'm hardwired to do with my OCD and perfectionism, which is, here, go do this thing. Let me give you a 20-page installation manual explaining exactly what to do, versus here is roughly what I want done, just figure it out and get it done.

• 25:07Tim Ferriss?

  I don't wanna make any decisions. So don't come back to me with 12 options, just make the best decisions you can. And I'll expect, you know, Reid Hoffman also of LinkedIn has mentioned this sort of a 10% fault rate, like 10% of the time, something's gonna go sideways. And that's fine in the interest of reducing decision fatigue and making things faster. So one was more figure it out delegation. And number two was sprints with creatives. And for me, what that meant, as somebody who has operated as a lone wolf, which by the way is a contradiction in terms, but who has been a solo operator for most of my creative projects, I was like, you know what? It just isn't that fun anymore to do it solo.

• 25:52Tim Ferriss?

  And it's also antithetical to some of the creative projects I wanna pursue, like a game. I mean, there are some amazing solo game designers, not to, not to say there aren't. But I was like, you know what? I wanna try. To be more social in my creativity and collaborate with creatives and do sprints. Now, sometimes those sprints turn into longer things. But those have been sort of my two guiding lights for the last few years, which is what then gave me the ability to build up the courage. It sounds so ridiculous to say, but to actually reach out to you and be like, hey, do you want to actually just bat around? Well. The possibility of something.

• 26:34Speaker 02

  So from my perspective, that conversation, like I got very excited to work with you on something. One, because it turns out you're just a lovely human being and so much fun to hang out with.

• 26:46Tim Ferriss?

  Thank you.

• 26:46Speaker 02

  But two, I asked you that very fundamental question. You said, hey, do you want to build a game? And I said, why do you want to build a game? And your answer was almost identical to what you just relayed, right? You talked about your past experiences. You talked about childhood memories of games. You talked about what you like, what you don't like. And what became very clear to me was there's something special going on here. Tim wants to treat his friends and his audience to something extraordinary. And we get approached all the time by people who want to make games big. Celebrities and singers and actors, all of them want to make a game. And whenever I ask them the question, why? The answer is invariably because my agent told me to, or because I think I can make

• 27:31Speaker 02

  money, or you know, really very superficial. Often they're not game players at all. They have no connection to the experience of game design. And when I spoke to you, none of that was present. Instead, it was, this is a very personal thing to me. And ultimately, I want to give a gift. And that's when my brain started lighting up. It's like, oh, this is going to be fun. Like, he is in this for all the reasons I'm in this. And that means we can make something very special together. And I think we have.

• 28:02Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Yeah, we definitely have. And another question that is sometimes a little tricky to apply, but that has been in my mind for a while since Seth Godin, very well-known author, thinker, just incredibly sage and awesome human being. He reframed for me, which is the reframing of the question, what would you do if you knew you couldn't fail, right? That's a good question. Like, what would you do if you knew you couldn't fail? All right, that's freeing. But the way he tweaks that is he said, what would you do if you knew you would fail? In other words, what would you do for which the process alone would

• 28:41Tim Ferriss?

  make it worth it? And for me, because, I mean, we became fast friends very quickly, right? And I was like, okay, that's rare for me as an adult, number one. And I've been banging this around in my own little head for so long, even if this ends up not making the cut, for whatever reason, this seems worth it to me. Right? Because coming back to the kind of people over activities also, I was like, love hanging out with Elon and connecting. I'm gonna learn a lot. And at the very worst, I learn a lot, and we've deepened our relationship. And that stuff just snowballs

• 29:25Tim Ferriss?

  over time. It transcends a single project. So even if this had not manifested, it would have been worth it. And that's how I try to pick my projects.

• 29:34Speaker 02

  So when we first started down this path together, I remember I came out, we sort of visited each other back and forth a few times. And I remember every time I would pack a suitcase full of games, right? And we would sit with some of your friends and we'd play games like all night long. And you'd say, I like this one. I don't like this one. I like this product. But ultimately, we weren't making any progress. We were just learning vocabulary, essentially. And I would go home and my wife would be like, how'd it go? What did you learn? You know, are you gonna make a game together? And I'd be like, I don't know. No, we just, we just hung out and had fun. And she'd be like, wasn't that a huge disappointment? You just, you know, you traveled, you know, 2,000 miles to go see him? I'm like, no, it's just fun. No, I'm not disappointed at

• 30:16Speaker 02

  all. We'll just do it again next month and we'll see how it goes. And we did that like five or six times. And, and I remember walking away from each one, just thinking like, same thing. If this goes nowhere, I'm just, I'm having so much fun. That's so rare.

• 30:30Tim Ferriss?

  It is rare. And if you can orient your

• 30:34Tim Ferriss?

  Life, or professional life, and look, I'm not saying this is possible for everyone, but it's to some extent more possible than people realize. You might not be able to like run out and invite Elon on your podcast and then awkwardly approach him like a sheepish 12-year-old boy to ask him on a date, but taking the lens of picking projects based on creating or deepening relationships and learning slash developing skills, if you just do that over time, it is almost inevitable that you will win, whatever winning means to you.

• 31:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, value the process.

• 31:11Tim Ferriss?

  Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by Wealthfront. It's a mess out there. The hyper complexities of the US economy, global economy can be very confusing and there's a lot of conflicting advice, but saving and investing doesn't have to be complicated. Here's something refreshingly simple to use and that's Wealthfront. Wealthfront is an app that helps you save and invest your money. Right now, you can earn 4% APY, that's annual percentage yield, on your cash from partner banks with the Wealthfront Cash Account. That's nearly 10 times the national average, according to fdic.gov. So, don't wait. Earn 4% APY on your cash today. Plus, it's eligible for up to 8 million in FDIC insurance through partner banks.

• 31:56Tim Ferriss?

  And when you open an account today, you'll get an extra $50 bonus with a deposit of $500 or more. There are already more than 1 million people using Wealthfront to save more, earn more, and build long-term wealth. So, check it out. Visit wealthfront.com/tim to get started. One more time, that's wealthfront.com/tim. This is a paid endorsement of Wealthfront. Wealthfront brokerage isn't a bank. The APY is subject to change. For more information, see the episode description.

• 32:26Tim Ferriss?

  Let's talk a little bit about the the origin story. Now, I'll throw out a couple of things here. And we're going to talk about the game development, then we're also going to talk about how to sell this thing. How does that work?

• 32:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:37Tim Ferriss?

  And

• 32:37Speaker 02

  And it's worth saying, designing a game, I remember you asked me this early on.

• 32:44Speaker 02

  You started out from the, hey, let's design a game and then we're basically done. And I remember really forcing myself to think through this process because I wanted to explain it to you. Now, that's half of it. The other half is selling the game. And just as much work goes into that. And if you're not willing to do it, or if you have no mechanism by which you can do it, might as well not design the game. Because one without the other, useless.

• 33:07Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah. So depends on the scale you're going after, right? If you want to make something for your friends.

• 33:12Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 33:12Tim Ferriss?

  You can do that.

• 33:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay, fair enough.

• 33:14Tim Ferriss?

  But in this particular case, I mean,

• 33:16Speaker 02

  You wanted to make something cool and share it, right?

• 33:19Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I wanted to share it. So that kind of dictated parts of the process that we need to weigh really heavily. So the game development process, I mean, we started off looking at the possibilities of modifying existing games. Right? So looking at, say, Pottery for Netherthal with an alternate set of rules.

• 33:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:39Tim Ferriss?

  Or a different deck plus A, B, or C. We looked at prototype games that you alluded to earlier, bringing the suitcase, right? So we did that all over the country.

• 33:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I showed up, I remember I have this notebook of game ideas, three, 400 in there, and I add more every month. And I remember I picked my favorites, like five or six of them. And I would show up with just the jankiest prototypes. So it's like, here's something I scribbled on a few cards. Here's, I took some dice and I like rubbed out the little nubs on the dice and hand wrote something on all the die faces instead. Let's try playing this weird game. And you were very patient and you had a lot of vision, thankfully, to look at these just horrible, very hastily created prototypes and say, not, this is no fun, let's move on. But you would always say like, I like this. I like that moment where we had a conversation about what you were going to do next. I like that part. I didn't like the rest of it, but I like that part.

• 34:38Speaker 02

  And that astute sense of notes, like really thoughtful and forward moving notes.

• 34:47Speaker 02

  Was ultimately what guided our conversation because then the next time I don't have to pick from 400 games to bring. Now I know like, okay, this cooperative thing, he liked that conversation aspect. There's only six games I've got like that. Let me bring those six and we'll refine it even farther.

• 35:02Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, totally. We can talk about the Toronto trip, the Toronto project. So that is where things start to gel because we'd had a number of these meetings around the country where we would do a one to kind of three day

• 35:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:18Tim Ferriss?

  sprint of testing, take all these notes. And we'd done a few of these and we've both got a lot going on. And your wife would ask you how it went. You're like, well, not really. I think we had fun, but no game as of yet. So we scheduled time, I was going to fly to Toronto to do a sprint. You were going to bring in expert game designer, sort of game mechanic specialist.

• 35:44Speaker 02

  Ken Grul.

• 35:45Tim Ferriss?

  Ken. And it was like, okay, this is the trip. If we make it happen, great. If not, we're just going to call a spade a spade. Like we seemed to not, we're like circling around this thing, but not really getting it done.

• 35:55Speaker 02

  It was like meeting number eight or nine at that point.

• 35:57Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, we tried a lot. And it was during that trip that the very primitive sort of germ of an idea started to resonate, which ended up being Coyote. And I remember a few things and thank God also for Ken's apparent photographic memory with how things transpired. But we're walking around all over the place in Toronto, the three of us, just spitballing.

• 36:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:28Tim Ferriss?

  Then it starts to rain.

• 36:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:29Tim Ferriss?

  And we seek shelter. We failed twice, I think, with various coffee shops saying, no room, no seats, whatever it might be. End up sitting in this weird. Kind of multi-purpose building.

• 36:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:42Tim Ferriss?

  And I remember where we were sitting and we played, I guess in English, it's Hanabi.

• 36:47Speaker 02

  Hanabi.

• 36:48Tim Ferriss?

  Hanabi, which is Hanabi in Japanese, which is fireworks.

• 36:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:52Tim Ferriss?

  And Han is flower, Bi is fire, so it's like flower, fire. That's Hanabi.

• 36:58Speaker 02

  For everybody out there, if you haven't played Hanabi, go try this game.

• 37:01Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 37:01Speaker 02

  It is very special.

• 37:03Tim Ferriss?

  So we played that game, kind of killing time.

• 37:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:05Tim Ferriss?

  Giving it a shot, because you guys had mentioned it. And I was like, okay, this is a very elegant game. And from that, liked the cooperative aspect. So when people think game, I think most folks are more familiar, maybe exclusively familiar with the sort of winner takes all.

• 37:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:25Tim Ferriss?

  Or team versus team.

• 37:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:26Tim Ferriss?

  Competitive type of game. But I really enjoyed, and I'd seen this in other ways, in different capacities, but the cooperative option and cooperative aspect.

• 37:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:35Tim Ferriss?

  So that then gets kind of stuck in the mind. And the rain clears up, we go for a walk by the water. And I remember, well, I'll own it, I was kind of stalled. I'll be the kind of hair plugging the drain in the bathtub. Because I was trying to search my mind for game examples, but I was thinking tabletop games, because that was the canvas we were sort of painting upon.

• 38:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:06Tim Ferriss?

  And we're walking, we're walking, had quite a bit of caffeine by this point. And it was either you or Ken, I think it was you, who asked, broadly speaking, any kind of game, what games have you really enjoyed? And that's where rock, paper, scissors came up.

• 38:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:25Tim Ferriss?

  Right? Rochambeau. And I just, as dumb as it might sound, and I said this at the time, I was like, I love rock, paper, scissors.

• 38:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:34Tim Ferriss?

  It's just, it is, especially when you play over an extended period of time with friends. Maybe there's some alcohol involved or not.

• 38:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:40Tim Ferriss?

  You don't need to have it involved, but you start to pick up tells, you start to pick up patterns, and it's actually very, very fun.

• 38:47Speaker 02

  So it's important to note. The moment you bring up rock, paper, scissors in any game design discussion, that's usually the end of the conversation, right? There's nothing to that game. There's three tools, deploy a tool, determine a winner, you're done. It is only when you say, let's acknowledge rock, paper, scissors is no fun, unless you play multiple times. Because now, we've made a very important transition. We're not playing the game anymore. We're playing each other.

• 39:14Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 39:14Speaker 02

  Right? Because I know what you did last time. You think I'm gonna throw scissors again, right? And now, we're playing each other.

• 39:20Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 39:20Speaker 02

  Yes, rock, paper, scissors are the tools by which we're playing each other. But suddenly, we're playing a very different game. And it starts, it cannot start in round one. It starts in round two, and it moves forward from there.

• 39:30Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 39:31Speaker 02

  And once we started having that discussion.

• 39:33Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 39:34Speaker 02

  Things started to get really interesting.

• 39:35Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, things got interesting. And do you want to show the prototype deck? And part of the reason I want to show this prototype deck, and we'll describe it for people who aren't watching, is quick and dirty is the fucking way to go.

• 39:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:51Tim Ferriss?

  And I will just make another recommendation for Stephen Key. So Stephen Key has a book called The One Simple Idea, which is about licensing and creating inventions. He's got a number of books now. But Stephen has made a gajillion dollars creating games for all the biggies that you can possibly think of. And he uses construction paper and glue you would find in a second grade class, and a handful of markers.

• 40:23Speaker 02

  Love it.

• 40:23Tim Ferriss?

  And

• 40:24Speaker 02

  This is already my friend.

• 40:26Tim Ferriss?

  By and large, that is how he creates these amazing, they can be games, they can be toys.

• 40:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:33Tim Ferriss?

  He's pretty broad spectrum. But it might be a new way to play basketball, shooting dirty laundry into a hamper, right? Something like that. And he prototypes these things incredibly quickly. And for him, for what he does, that is enough.

• 40:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:48Tim Ferriss?

  He is able to put together a pitch. He's able to sell it. And he's able to develop these amazing. Passive income streams with these annuities that just come in.

• 40:57Speaker 02

  So good.

• 40:57Tim Ferriss?

  From all these different places, but that relates to what we're looking at.

• 41:00Speaker 02

  Okay, so I love that. We have not even described what Coyote is yet, but that's okay.

• 41:06Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 41:07Speaker 02

  I think the value of this conversation is to actually talk through the creative process and talk through, I think a lot of people want to make games. This is how you do it. And we went through this to your journey and we arrived at a very happy outcome.

• 41:19Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 41:20Speaker 02

  So I'm excited to talk about, well, let me show you the very ugly, very first deck we ever built. So we had this conversation about rock, paper, scissors, and I knew there was something there because we were talking about my fundamental premise behind all game design is games should not be entertaining, games should make the players entertaining.

• 41:38Tim Ferriss?

  Yep.

• 41:38Speaker 02

  And suddenly, when you said rock, paper, scissors over time, I was like, oh, that's perfect. But three tools, rock, paper and scissors, not a very robust toolset, right? We can't really play a game that way. So ran home and started scribbling on cards. These are just blank cards. I took Sharpies. I buy these like by the thousands on Amazon. So I had a ton of these and we just started scribbling. And so we made a card that says rock and we made a card that says paper and we made a card that says scissors and we thought, what if we're all on the same team? But what if these cards here are not tools to fight with each other? What if these are a challenge that we have to all solve together? And so we started just putting down a bunch of things, rock, paper, scissors, rock, rock, paper.

• 42:23Speaker 02

  And we're like, all right, we'll sit around the table and we'll all just do this pattern. Everyone do scissors. Now everyone do paper. Now everyone do rock.

• 42:30Tim Ferriss?

  And we've been talking about these different variations and ideas on the walk. And then we ended up back at your dining room table.

• 42:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right.

• 42:39Tim Ferriss?

  With tons.

• 42:41Speaker 02

  Scribbling.

• 42:41Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, scribbling and modifying cards as we went.

• 42:44Speaker 02

  Exactly. So now the modifiers are really the most interesting thing because the game that I'm describing right now is useless. We can all do scissors and then all do paper. Who cares, right? There's nothing here. But now we have a baseline. We're all gonna do this thing. Cool, easy. And then we started doing these modifiers. All players do all blue cards. And so we start scribbling rock, paper, scissors in different colors. And then we've got this modifier. So now I'm gonna do scissors, but then we're all gonna do paper. And then back to you just doing rock and things like that. And so then it was like, okay, well, skip a player after every red card. Okay, shout every blue card, right? And we started writing all these crazy modifiers. I'm just putting all these cards all over the table

• 43:27Speaker 02

  because the challenge got more and more interesting. And then it was like, okay, so something interesting is possible here. Now, what if instead of just splashing cards all over the paper, what if we were responsible for this? What if one at a time, everyone had to add a new card to the table to make this challenge harder and harder and harder? And that's when we started talking about the vocabulary of this game. What are these cards? What makes this thing harder? Rock and paper and scissors very quickly got eliminated from the game because they're so boring. So we started talking about, well, okay, what if you're making a peace sign? And then you came up with, well, what if you pose like a ballerina on a card? And what if you slap the shoulder of the person next to you on a card? And what if you have to, I remember one of our earliest notes was,

• 44:11Speaker 02

  eliminate all shouting cards. Because that was no fun at all.

• 44:15Tim Ferriss?

  We tested that and then that got old real quick.

• 44:16Speaker 02

  Right, exactly.

• 44:17Tim Ferriss?

  And also, as we're playtesting, right? As we're inventing mechanics and testing different things, we play for a few rounds, be like, okay, that was okay. But what do you guys think of this? Okay, we like this aspect. Great, let's like make four more of those cards of different colors. And then we played again.

• 44:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:35Tim Ferriss?

  And then we played again. And then we iterate and then we play it again.

• 44:37Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 44:37Tim Ferriss?

  And we ended up with, I mean, spreadsheets full of different cards. And this is all still now in cooperative mode.

• 44:49Speaker 02

  All in cooperative mode. But over the next week, I would say we designed 80% of the game. We were at this like stalled at 1% mode for months.

• 44:58Tim Ferriss?

  Yep.

• 44:59Speaker 02

  And then in a matter of days, 80% done.

• 45:02Tim Ferriss?

  Yep.

• 45:02Speaker 02

  Because we found this like every time we played some version of this, the immediate answer when we were done playing was, let's go again.

• 45:11Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Is that the litmus test for you? I mean, in terms of... The indicators that something is worth further development, right? Because you have 400 in your notebook, right?

• 45:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:23Tim Ferriss?

  So you're not going to develop all of those. What are some of the, could be a water field that you have, but like, what are some of the indicators? Really, okay.

• 45:32Speaker 02

  So there's two things to talk about here. Certainly, let's play again is a great one, but to set your mind in a place where you're willing to say, imagine this, but tweaked, but something a little different. There's this principle I love called the zero effect.

• 45:48Tim Ferriss?

  Zero effect.

• 45:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, zero effect. It's from a movie, I think in the late eighties, early nineties, somewhere around there called Zero Effect. And there's this one scene where they explain what the zero effect is. It is as follows. If you've lost your car keys and you're looking for your car keys, here you are in your living room. You're looking for your car keys. The chances of you finding your car keys are very low because there's so many things in this room that are not your car keys. So your chances of finding that one thing, very, very low. If instead you are trying to find anything, your chances of success are suddenly at a hundred percent. You will find something as long as you don't care what it is that you found. That's my favorite premise for brainstorming and for early testing.

• 46:33Speaker 02

  Don't lock in your head, I'm looking for this particular thing. I must find X, I must find X because the chances that you're going to find that thing are almost nonexistent. But if you can keep your brain open and say, I'm just looking for something. I don't care what it is, something, anything. And I'll tweak it later, I'll play with it later, I'll find some way to consider this thing I found, my car keys. As long as you're willing to make that leap, brainstorming becomes a pleasure.

• 47:03Tim Ferriss?

  And does that take the form of what if blah, what if we blah, what if the, this card did blah?

• 47:10Speaker 02

  Precisely, yeah.

• 47:11Tim Ferriss?

  Series of what?

• 47:12Speaker 02

  And you're not scared for all of those to fail.

• 47:15Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 47:15Speaker 02

  Right? Because you can come up with those all day long. And that's what we did, right? Over the next few days, that process, what if blah, let's try it. What if blah, let's try it. What if, whatever, let's try it. As long as the answer is always, let's try it, you will a hundred percent find what you're looking for.

• 47:34Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm. All right. So let's make some recommendations for people listening or watching. What books or resources would you recommend for people who are interested in game development? And I want to reiterate also, whether you think you're playing games or not, you're already playing games in life. So for me, this is a way of putting on a table, what we've already implicitly agreed to in our own lives in ways that we generally don't realize, which is we're all playing games. Now, what does that mean? That means that beyond Maslow's basic rungs on the ladder, shelter, warmth, food, et cetera, at some point,

• 48:20Tim Ferriss?

  particularly as adults, maybe it's before you go to school, maybe it's when you're in college, but you have decided to play, or you have just ended up drafting into a game with certain rules, certain conditions for winning or losing, certain ranking mechanisms. And step number one is figuring out what games you're playing. Okay, so I would suggest that learning about building games helps you to put on x-ray vision glasses where you start to see the world as comprised of tons of games.

• 49:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's so true. And you start to dive deeper into game theory. Like, what is the prisoner's dilemma? What is a zero sum game? Like, if you can start to identify those very fundamental game design concepts in the real world, you can jump to the end of a conversation so much faster. You can avoid so many missteps because everything follows within reason. Everything follows game design principles because this practice, this art form, has been so well studied and so well researched and so well documented. That you get to take advantage of all of that. And I love that. I use that for my relationships. I use that playing with my kids. I use that at work all the time.

• 49:44Speaker 02

  It's just, there's these fundamental principles of game design. And I'll talk about a book I love that illustrates them. But yeah, they can be applied to anything. You're right. You're playing a game all the time. And the first step is to be aware that you are playing a game. All right. So I got two books.

• 49:59Tim Ferriss?

  Let's hear it.

• 50:00Speaker 02

  One is A Theory of Fun by Raph Koster. Rafe Koster, R A P H. Raph. It'll outline all these fundamentals. It is the first game design book I ever read. It is the one I go back to and refer to the most often. It's just got everything and the author is brilliant. And go read that book. The second one is going to be a little controversial.

• 50:22Tim Ferriss?

  No Mars of a Geisha?

• 50:26Speaker 02

  It's called Don't Shoot the Dog.

• 50:28Tim Ferriss?

  Oh.

• 50:30Tim Ferriss?

  This is a, an exceptional book.

• 50:32Speaker 02

  Exceptional book.

• 50:33Tim Ferriss?

  So it is not explicitly about game design.

• 50:36Speaker 02

  It is not at all about game design. But here's the thing. This book, the fundamental premise of this book is you are trying to teach a companion, a dog, to behave in a certain way. And the answer to how best to do that is when things go wrong, at least, not to blame the dog, is to fundamentally change the way you operate and the way you convey information and the way you look at the world in order to better relate to your dog and to the way that the dog understands and sees the world. It is the best game design principle I have ever encountered in my life.

• 51:19Speaker 02

  And true, it has nothing to do with game design. But when you're designing a game, you're designing it for a target, right? For someone who isn't you. And you're not even going to be in the room when they encounter it. And to have in your brain from the very first step, every problem that comes up is my problem, not theirs. Every responsibility is my responsibility, not theirs. And if you can get that in your head and design games that way, those are the games I have found that are the most successful.

• 51:52Tim Ferriss?

  This is, Don't Shoot the Dog, terrible title, but it is the fundamental.

• 51:59Tim Ferriss?

  Starting point that I recommend to anyone who's interested in dog training. And Karen Pryor is one of the popularizers of clicker training as a way of shaping behavior. I believe she had experience with marine mammals, which by the way, you can't whack on the butt with a newspaper.

• 52:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:17Tim Ferriss?

  To punish them. In other words, negative reinforcement. So how do you do it? You use positive reinforcement and use clickers or whistles or different tools.

• 52:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:25Tim Ferriss?

  And I believe the back of the book, people will be able to fact check this, but it basically says, you know, whether you want to get your dog to heal, your cat to stop laying on the kitchen table, or your mother-in-law to stop nagging you, like the principles are all the same.

• 52:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:41Tim Ferriss?

  And at the end of it, like you said, is this radical ownership of, it may not be your fault, but it is your responsibility.

• 52:51Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 52:51Tim Ferriss?

  And in a lot of cases, certainly with game design and instructions and so on, it is actually your fault.

• 52:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:56Tim Ferriss?

  If people are confused, it is your fault.

• 52:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. Before I started Exploding Kittens, I designed games for friends. And I just had the hardest time. When I wasn't in the room, people were not enjoying those games. And it was only once I read that book that I realized the fault is absolutely mine. Because I'm trying to get them to have as much fun as I want them to have. And the fact that they're not, I keep blaming them. And that's so wrong.

• 53:21Tim Ferriss?

  So what did you do? How did you fix that?

• 53:24Speaker 02

  So one, there's basically two parts. One starts with design. One says, "The game has to be so simple that it is almost self-correcting. And I have to strip out all complication. I have to remove all nuance. I need, anytime I'm like thinking of the rules and I say, "If this happens, then this happens. Except if..." The moment I say "except," I've gone down a wrong path, right? Like, I need to get rid of all of that stuff. That was the first part. And then the second part is in writing the actual instructions and figuring out, like if I'm sitting in the room, you're going to get this game. Because I'm going to explain it and I'm going to be enthusiastic. And when you ask a question, I'm going to answer the question.

• 54:07Speaker 02

  And when you get confused, I'm going to clarify it. Like, I can 100% do that. But a piece of paper, trying to do that same thing, I have to write it as if I'm in the room. And I have to anticipate those questions and I have to cut them off before they come up. And I have to correct behavior because I know exactly where you're going to go off course and fix it in the instructions. And that kind of one-two punch. Changed my game design from, yeah, like 10% of the people get this to like 95% of the people get this.

• 54:35Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, one aspect, I mean, there's so many aspects, but one aspect of this that I enjoyed was related to the instructions.

• 54:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:43Tim Ferriss?

  And so number one, you make it really clear in the instructions, which we both poured over ad nauseam, but reading is the worst way to learn a game. Go watch this video, QR code, right? So that's number one, but if you're going to put into text, and I think I'm pretty good at this, but I was very impressed with your ability to identify anything that could be misunderstood or that wasn't yet defined.

• 55:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:07Tim Ferriss?

  Or that could be taken with another more broader connotation that would steer people off course.

• 55:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:13Tim Ferriss?

  And the number of edits in that Google Doc.

• 55:16Speaker 02

  I mean, it's got to be in the hundreds, right?

• 55:18Tim Ferriss?

  From all of us, hundreds and hundreds of edits.

• 55:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. So the most important skill is you will write better instructions. You will convey information to people better if you can clear your mind. If you can approach any set of instructions from the perspective of the things I know I do not yet know. And the words that come out of my mouth have to not only fill my brain with the required knowledge.

• 55:45Tim Ferriss?

  Basically beginner's mind, right?

• 55:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:46Tim Ferriss?

  Putting yourself in the place of someone who has never seen this.

• 55:49Speaker 02

  Exactly. And it's so hard to do because you have this information in your head. It must be there, otherwise you're not going to be able to explain the thing. But to back all the way up and say, I'm just gonna split my brain in two. There's this one reading a script and I know the information I have to get out, but the other half is the recipient of that script and it knows nothing. If you can do that, it's so hard. It takes so much practice. If you can do that, you're gonna not only be able to design good games and write good instructions, but you're also gonna be able to just converse more effectively, just out in the world in general.

• 56:24Tim Ferriss?

  You mentioned, I think it was, two minutes to learn, 15 minutes to play.

• 56:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:29Tim Ferriss?

  What other golden rules or guiding tenets do you have?

• 56:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:36Tim Ferriss?

  For yourself when you're doing game design within Exploding Kittens?

• 56:40Speaker 02

  If a component does not need to be in the game, remove it from the game.

• 56:44Tim Ferriss?

  Right. So an example of that would be, we had these chits or like little chips.

• 56:48Speaker 02

  Like bingo chips.

• 56:50Tim Ferriss?

  Bingo chips that we were using for lives.

• 56:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:52Tim Ferriss?

  Or strikes.

• 56:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:53Tim Ferriss?

  And turns out you don't need that.

• 56:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, because you got a whole thing of cards right here. Just use those.

• 56:58Tim Ferriss?

  You can use cards by flipping them over and using the back of the card.

• 57:01Speaker 02

  Exactly. That's a perfect example, right? Like, we had this thing where we're like, hey, you know what would be fun is if everybody had a big hand of cards? And we're gonna play cards and you make decisions and like, I get that. Most games you play, you have a hand of cards and you're gonna play a card and you're making a decision. That's awesome. But you know what? That's a private moment and you reveal a card. Every game you've ever played, when you play Uno, you've got a hand of cards, you're making a decision, you play a card, you've revealed what card you just played. And I remember thinking, is there a simpler version of that? And it turns out there is. And the simpler version in Coyote is take some cards, put them all face up on the table, and then decide which one you're gonna pick. That's very similar to having a deck of cards, but now it's public.

• 57:46Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it's public.

• 57:46Speaker 02

  Right?

• 57:47Tim Ferriss?

  And also, when the competitive version was brought in, which is the way that I like to play, the way I would suggest people play, but you can warm up with cooperative. If you have somebody in your life or in your family, you just cannot lose without creating a huge pain in the ass, then the cooperative mode is really fun. But the competitive mode then allows the group decision on which card to play, potentially all the ultimate is individual, right? That has implications for cooperative when it's public.

• 58:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:20Tim Ferriss?

  But also for competitive.

• 58:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:22Tim Ferriss?

  There are a number of tweaks made to this, but I mentioned earlier sabotaging. So we had competitive, but different minds are wired for different games.

• 58:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:30Tim Ferriss?

  And so, God forbid, what happens to you is what happened to one of my employees who was playtesting this, where one of the people in the group was a mathematician, who also is a high-level chess player, if I remember correctly. And he just smoked everyone because he had the mind for it.

• 58:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:48Tim Ferriss?

  So what do you do for that? Well, we ended up, this took a lot of playtesting. Ultimately land on this, and I want to ask you about playtesting, particularly if it's kind of hands off the wheel and you have

• 58:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:58Tim Ferriss?

  People playing the game without you.

• 59:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, terrifying.

• 59:01Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. And this comes back to the underdog being able to win, not getting my ass smoked in magic over and over again by someone who's just got better hardwiring for it.

• 59:12Tim Ferriss?

  And that's where the attack cards came from.

• 59:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:14Tim Ferriss?

  So there are these attack cards in the deck, which to the simplification side, you can play in cooperative mode to modify a card. I don't want to get too in the weeds.

• 59:22Speaker 02

  I want to give you more credit for this because I don't think you're taking enough credit. So, all right, let me, let me phrase this a different way. So the basic premise of the game is we have a whole bunch of activities on the table. Right. Ballerina, peace sign, whatever it is, thumbs up, thumbs down.

• 59:37Tim Ferriss?

  Lean and make a fart noise.

• 59:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Lean and make a fart noise. So we got all these things that we're all going to do. And then on top of that.

• 59:43Tim Ferriss?

  It's a fan favorite.

• 59:44Speaker 02

  That's right. That's such a good card. On top of that, we have all these modifier cards and they modify, you have to skip a player after this one, ignore this card, do this one twice.

• 59:53Tim Ferriss?

  Generally the coyote.

• 59:54Speaker 02

  The coyote cards. And you had this great idea. You said, because some players are naturally gifted at this game, far more so than others. And because some players are going to naturally fall behind and they need a way to sabotage the first play. If you're in last place, you need a way to sabotage the first place player. If you've ever played Mario Kart, you know this feeling very well. And you said, what if we took some of these modifiers? All players have to do all the blue cards with one hand instead of two.

• 1:00:21Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:22Speaker 02

  But what if instead of all the blue?

• 1:00:23Tim Ferriss?

  Tyrannosaurus arms.

• 1:00:24Speaker 02

  Or tyrannosaurus arms. You have to do all your movements with tyrannosaurus arms. What if instead of playing that on all blue cards on the table? What if you just put that, slide it right in front of another player? And now only they have to do it for every single one of their turns that you've put a curse on them.

• 1:00:41Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:41Speaker 02

  Right? You've attacked. The last place player has attacked the first place player. And I remember thinking, Tim, you're just like a natural game designer. Like, that's such a nice moment and it's such an easy modification. And of course, my answer was, I don't know, let's try it. And then we tried it and it was glorious. And I love moments like that for two reasons. One is because you had learned at that point to speak like a game designer. Instead of saying, I think we just need to sabotage people. Instead, you said, some people are really good at this game. We have to address that. Some people are naturally bad at this game. We need to give them a tool. And those terms, speaking in that language, armed with that vocabulary, suddenly the answer to you became so clear. Like, here's how we solve those problems.

• 1:01:26Speaker 02

  That's great. I guarantee you would not have been capable of that when we started this process.

• 1:01:30Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, no, I wouldn't have had the... Sometimes artists talk about the visual library, right? Just the exposure to different types of artwork, different forms, different silhouettes, different structures, so that they can pull from that visual library to inform whatever they're trying to build or solve for. And it's the same with game design, same with everything. Like, you need to build your ABCs so you can convey what you're trying to say in terms that are solvable, if that makes any sense.

• 1:01:59Speaker 02

  Totally. You're a quick study, too.

• 1:02:03Tim Ferriss?

  Helped getting the books that you recommended. I'm not going to dox my friend in question, but as long-term listeners will know, I was in a former life neuroscience major and then in the last 10 years have funded a lot of science. And I always have just had this hankering and this dream of being involved in neuroscience. It continues to this day. And in the process of building this game, and this is not how I necessarily sell it, because this is going to sound terrible, but through many experiments with different companies and so on, I've concluded that even though generally Americans, I'll throw it on Americans, I'm American.

• 1:02:46Tim Ferriss?

  Say they want to be smarter.

• 1:02:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:48Tim Ferriss?

  They will typically not pay for something that is designed to make them smarter.

• 1:02:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:52Tim Ferriss?

  Unless it's a magic pill, and then sometimes the answer is yes. But what I was hoping to also do with this game is to create something that would, and this has not been proven, there's no randomized controlled study examining this, although that might change at some point, is to design something that would help those players who are not good at this, or the people who are in the middle of the bell curve, or the people who are good, to get better.

• 1:03:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:21Tim Ferriss?

  And for people who are interested in looking at some, they're not perfect analogues, but they're similar, people can check out the Wisconsin Card Sorting Test, WCST. It's a neurophysiological test used to assess cognitive flexibility and executive functions, particularly the ability to shift cognitive sets and learn from feedback. All right, so participants must sort cards based on an initially unknown rule, which changes after a certain number of correct sorts. Now, this is not a perfect parallel, because that does not in and of itself make for a fun game.

• 1:03:54Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:03:55Tim Ferriss?

  Right? So fun number one, lots of probably rank ordered, like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, but could I also Trojan Horse?

• 1:04:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:03Tim Ferriss?

  In.

• 1:04:03Speaker 02

  Love it.

• 1:04:04Tim Ferriss?

  Cognitive training. And I think the answer, this is from a lay perspective, and obviously I'm biased because it's involved in every step of making this thing, but I think it does the trick. And what people will notice is, and you know this too, the game starts off so easy. And.

• 1:04:26Speaker 02

  There's nothing to it.

• 1:04:26Tim Ferriss?

  People are like, there's nothing to it.

• 1:04:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:28Tim Ferriss?

  And then, once a modifier or two come out.

• 1:04:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:30Tim Ferriss?

  People are like, oh, oh, wait a second.

• 1:04:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:33Tim Ferriss?

  This is getting really tricky.

• 1:04:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:35Tim Ferriss?

  And if, for instance, like I've had lifelong insomnia, you want to sleep better? Play this game before you go to bed. And by the end, you will feel like you just did a workout.

• 1:04:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:47Tim Ferriss?

  Like a full.

• 1:04:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:48Tim Ferriss?

  Full brain workout for your cognitive.

• 1:04:51Speaker 02

  You know what I love about that part? I learned to play the drums years and years ago. And I remember I would learn these new patterns. And it was like, you know, your right hand has to do this, and your left hand has to do this, and your right leg has to do this, and you're... And I remember thinking. No way. Like, no way. I can't do that. And you work at it, and you work at it, and you work at it, and suddenly it starts to click, just a little bit, right? Like, ooh, my right hand did the right thing. And it's like, you can feel new, like, neurons coming to life, right? Like, your brain is doing something that five minutes ago you could not do. This is the first game I've ever played that does that exact same thing. And I remember the first time I felt that way in a very early playtest, my eyes got all wide, and I was like, there's something magical going on here.

• 1:05:34Speaker 02

  Like, I know I'm psyching myself out, but I feel new things happening in my brain, because five minutes ago, I could not do this pattern, and now I can. And, you know, we can go all the way around the table, and you can add a new card, and I will still be able to do this pattern that I couldn't do just five minutes ago.

• 1:05:51Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, totally. And what's cool, as well, is you get to see just how specialized certain minds are.

• 1:05:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:00Tim Ferriss?

  And where you might have an Achilles' heel. So for instance, and this is true for some folks, we have the modifiers ranked by difficulty, because ultimately with Coyote, you're in charge of how hard you make the game. Like, you are in full charge of how easy, moderate, or difficult you make it. And we didn't even talk about how this game is designed to make you a game designer. We'll talk about that with the blank cards. But this is a sort of creativity unlock as much as a game. That's the intention behind it, which is part of the reason that I'm really excited to see what the hell it does when it's released into the wild, which it effectively is now. Now, the specialization piece, I'll just speak to that. So for instance, for me, skipping turns, skipping players,

• 1:06:46Tim Ferriss?

  it is a blind spot. It is an Achilles' heel for me. That's true for quite a few folks.

• 1:06:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:51Tim Ferriss?

  But for other people, for instance, if we're going around the table, most people would be familiar with, you know, "We Will Rock You," right?

• 1:06:57Speaker 02

  "We Will Rock You," yeah.

• 1:06:59Tim Ferriss?

  So it's like boom, boom, boom, boom. So the way you play the game is you go around. Is you go boom, boom, you can hit the table with your hands, you can do it with closed fists. You know, you could probably clap it if you want, but it's boom, boom. And then one person does the move.

• 1:07:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:15Tim Ferriss?

  Like, let's take the ballet, right? Where you're gonna do a pirouette. You have to do the motion and you have to say the motion.

• 1:07:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:21Tim Ferriss?

  So then these two things can be split or confused later.

• 1:07:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:24Tim Ferriss?

  We won't get too deep into that. And then it's boom, boom, next person, boom, boom, next person.

• 1:07:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:31Tim Ferriss?

  And it goes around and then it just gets more and more complicated. I remember when we were first experimenting with the modifier that said, okay, it's now three bumps instead of two. So it's boom, boom, boom. And then, uh, and there were, I remember, I'm not gonna call them out, but there's one person who just could not do it.

• 1:07:48Speaker 02

  I know.

• 1:07:49Tim Ferriss?

  Right?

• 1:07:49Speaker 02

  And I was one of those people. My brain would start melting out of my ears at that point. I don't know why, though.

• 1:07:54Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it's weird. So they're very specific. You'll, you'll find each person will have a super strength and a super weakness and you will figure it out by playing this game.

• 1:08:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:02Tim Ferriss?

  And just from a game design perspective, also, I'd love to hear you talk about finding the sweet spot. And we could talk about Bushnell's Law, right? The, uh, of Atari fame, right? The game, you know, I'm paraphrasing here, but a good game is easy to learn and difficult to master.

• 1:08:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:19Tim Ferriss?

  But how do you, in the course of playtesting, working with prototypes, find the sweet spot of difficulty, right? Because with this game, well, through making this game, I've just really come to appreciate how hard it is to create a game where people experience that sweet spot. Because if you were to take Coyote and make it too easy, what a simple game to make.

• 1:08:46Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:08:47Tim Ferriss?

  Right?

• 1:08:47Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:08:47Tim Ferriss?

  If you wanted to make it basically impossible and not fun to play, also very easy. But to find that sweet spot on the graph is incredibly challenging.

• 1:08:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. So the way I think about this is when you first encounter any game, the first thought that has to go into your brain is, I can do that. Right? You hear it described and you have to think, I can do that. And then you have to try the game and that has to be reinforced. The game has to say, yep, you can do that. And you have to feel like, okay, I thought I could do it. I can do it. This is great. But that's only going to last a few seconds. The next thought that has to go into your brain is, I understand the path to mastery. Like, I understand how to get better at this. And then the next thought is, and I can do that, too. So you have to see the moment a modifier card comes out,

• 1:09:42Speaker 02

  or the moment any complication happens in your favorite game, it has to like stop you dead in your tracks. It has to be like, oh, the thing I just did to start the game and was really good at, I thought I could do it, I could do it. That's not going to work here. I have to rethink my strategy, or I have to get better at something else. And then those two follow-up thoughts have to show up in quick succession. I know what I have to do, and I can do that, too. And that's really the art to me of that, that ramping up of game design. You have to keep hitting that. I think I can do that. Yes, you can. Now you can't anymore, but you know what you have to do, and you can do that, too. And then that's going to get blocked. And you think, okay, now I know what I have to do, and I can do that, too.

• 1:10:25Speaker 02

  And you have to just keep hitting those two things. And it's rinse and repeat over and over and over again. And if you can hit that, you are just holding somebody's hand from the beginning of the game to the end of the game. And they're going to get great at it. They're going to achieve that sense of mastery over time.

• 1:10:42Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, and if you, listening or watching, have any game that you consider simple that you enjoy, rest assured, there was an absurd, absurd amount of development and testing and revising that went into it. Just to give you an example, like, this is, by all outward appearances, a very simple game. The three to eight players, you could probably play with more, 10 minutes. Says age is 10 plus. I've, I've seen people playing with their kids who are much younger, and it's actually hilarious and super fun. There are so many levers you can pull here, right? You have the action cards, which are these cute little salamander cards with the different motions and gestures and so on.

• 1:11:26Tim Ferriss?

  You've got just the sheer number of cards. How many variants do you have? How many total cards do you have? How many Coyote versus attack cards? When you have a fully shuffled deck, what does that actually look like?

• 1:11:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:37Tim Ferriss?

  There are so many different variables that you have to think through.

• 1:11:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. One of my favorite things is we're starting to see people compete now. Like, so we set up this page of here are table configurations. Here's like an array of cards in exactly this order with exactly these modifiers. This one's hard. This one's impossible. This one is going to kill you. And we've started to see just, you know, the game is barely available so far, but we started to see some people try to tackle those challenges.

• 1:12:06Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, I didn't even know that.

• 1:12:07Speaker 02

  It's incredible.

• 1:12:08Tim Ferriss?

  So where this came from also is in The Four Hour Chef, a million years ago, came out in 2012, which was actually a book about accelerated learning, confusingly. But putting that aside, there were a few recipes in that book. I think one was called Dragon Force Chaconne or something like that, which was named after this video game track that people found impossible to play on guitar.

• 1:12:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:30Tim Ferriss?

  And then there was something à la ancien, which was this just ludicrously complex French dish that involved fish. And I was like, okay, look, if you've done everything up to this point and you want to take a quantum leap forward and try something that is considered effectively impossible by most people.

• 1:12:48Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:12:49Tim Ferriss?

  Here you go.

• 1:12:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:50Tim Ferriss?

  And so that's what we created on this particular page.

• 1:12:53Speaker 02

  I will just say, having tested all of the challenges on that page, I can do exactly one of them.

• 1:12:59Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:00Speaker 02

  The last two are so hard.

• 1:13:02Tim Ferriss?

  They're really hard.

• 1:13:02Speaker 02

  And we've already seen someone, a table of six people succeed at the middle one.

• 1:13:08Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:13:08Speaker 02

  They've already done it.

• 1:13:09Tim Ferriss?

  That's nuts.

• 1:13:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. I've never seen anyone do the crazy hard one.

• 1:13:12Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:13Speaker 02

  But it's coming.

• 1:13:13Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, so people can check it out. And there may or may not be a bunch of excitement around that. So I will, I will just say there may be incentives later to be good at this game. I will leave it at that for now. I tell you what, we're going to come back to some of the blank cards and we'll talk about those features, but let's talk about a bit more of the process of making any game. We could talk about Coyote specifically, of course. Because you have a process for this. How many games per year do you guys put out?

• 1:13:41Speaker 02

  Uh, we do. So it's funny. I actually built this out as a graph. So our first year, we did one, our second year, we did two, our third year, we did two again. Last year, we did 14. This year, we'll do 23, I think.

• 1:13:57Tim Ferriss?

  Wow.

• 1:13:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's a lot. It's really fun. We've built this incredibly robust pipeline from design all the way through to testing and then sales and marketing. And I feel obligated to just keep that pipeline full because it's such a beautiful thing we built. So we do a lot of games.

• 1:14:13Tim Ferriss?

  All right. Let's get some info that we wouldn't normally have any access to.

• 1:14:20Speaker 02

  All right.

• 1:14:20Tim Ferriss?

  If you do an 80/20 analysis.

• 1:14:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:23Tim Ferriss?

  It's not going to be exactly 80/20, but you get where I'm going. On your bestselling games.

• 1:14:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:29Tim Ferriss?

  What's on the leaderboard? What are the top X number of games? Five, three, four, whatever the number.

• 1:14:34Speaker 02

  Up until last year, number one, the top selling game in the world amongst all games was Exploding Kittens.

• 1:14:42Tim Ferriss?

  That's nuts, man.

• 1:14:43Speaker 02

  It's nuts. It's nuts.

• 1:14:44Tim Ferriss?

  Congratulations.

• 1:14:44Speaker 02

  It makes no sense, but I'll tell you something I'm even more proud of. It's now number two. Number one is a game called Hurry Up Chicken Butt. Hurry Up Chicken Butt is a game I designed with my four-year-old daughter and she did most of the design.

• 1:15:00Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:01Speaker 02

  And it is outselling Exploding Kittens. Like it is selling one game every four seconds.

• 1:15:07Tim Ferriss?

  Wow.

• 1:15:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's nuts. And it was designed by a four-year-old.

• 1:15:11Tim Ferriss?

  Okay. So we got a Hurry Up Chicken Butt.

• 1:15:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:14Tim Ferriss?

  Exploding Kittens.

• 1:15:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. The next few spots in the like global sales are constantly shifting. Like everybody's fighting for those. But our entries into that list, which are constantly shifting, Pottery for Neanderthals is usually number three. Throw Throw Burrito is usually either number five or six, and the rest are just totally random.

• 1:15:34Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Okay, got it. So what has made Hurry Up Chicken Butt a success?

• 1:15:40Speaker 02

  So remember I said, if you have the best designed game in the world.

• 1:15:43Tim Ferriss?

  And by the way, when we spoke, I think two years ago.

• 1:15:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:47Tim Ferriss?

  You were just beginning to talk about this. I don't think it had launched at that point.

• 1:15:51Speaker 02

  No, I hadn't. Yeah. It has been an absolute rocket ship. Like.

• 1:15:55Tim Ferriss?

  What are the magic ingredients?

• 1:15:56Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:15:57Tim Ferriss?

  Why has it worked? Because not, not all the games do that.

• 1:15:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, no.

• 1:16:00Tim Ferriss?

  And you've had now with the number of games you've, that EK, Exploding Kids has developed.

• 1:16:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:06Tim Ferriss?

  You've had a chance to see a lot of different ideas come through the doors and go out the doors.

• 1:16:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. Some games last a season. Some games last a decade. So hurry up Chicken Butt in particular. I wrote a list of the things I wanted that game to accomplish. And my daughter had, you know, all these ideas. Here's what I want to do, and you're gonna do this, and you're gonna run up and jump up and down. But I had a list of things that I needed to know were in this game in order for me as a parent to buy it for my kid. And they were as follows. The game has to be as much fun for me to play as it is for my daughter. That's a hard one.

• 1:16:43Tim Ferriss?

  That's hard.

• 1:16:43Speaker 02

  That killed most designs that we came up with. Number two, my daughter has to be able to beat me at this game, even though I'm not letting her win. Holy crap, is that a hard one. Number three, the game cannot have any losers. It can have a winner, but it cannot have any losers.

• 1:17:04Speaker 02

  Those three were like my guiding lights. It was like, I need to check off these three checkboxes for this game to be good. And we worked on a hundred million designs. Like, she's great. She'll just be like, oh, you don't like this one? Here's another one. You don't like that one? Here's another one. And she just kept firing them off. And we finally got to this game that hit all three of those. That, as I said earlier, is only half the battle.

• 1:17:28Tim Ferriss?

  That's, yeah, that's the necessary but not sufficient.

• 1:17:30Speaker 02

  Exactly. So now we have a game that I'm in love with, that we play every single night, that she can beat me at regularly. And I am trying my absolute hardest to beat her. And this four-year-old is kicking my ass at this game. Love that. Love it. And I'm having a blast, right?

• 1:17:44Tim Ferriss?

  This is my first time hearing about these criteria. Just for people listening. This is all new to me.

• 1:17:49Speaker 02

  When my daughter. Got old enough to start playing games right around when she turned four. You know, we went out and bought all these games and I just hated them. They were so boring and I hated playing. And so we just designed our own, like we just made them better. And it was important for me to have that list because unless I know what success looks like, I'll just stay in brainstorming mode forever. So I made that list, finally hit it, and then we entered into part two. And here my daughter has very little to do with it, right? Here's where I sit down with the marketing and sales team. I was like, what the hell are we going to call this thing? And we went through a thousand different names.

• 1:18:25Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I know the feeling.

• 1:18:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, we did that. But once I had like 10 names that I really liked, we sat down with my daughter and all her friends and I would just read them off. And there was no contest. Like it was just, I got to hurry up chicken butt and they're like, well, just laughing hysterically, jumping up and down. They didn't even want to hear the rest of the names. I was like, okay.

• 1:18:46Tim Ferriss?

  All right.

• 1:18:47Speaker 02

  So that was a really nice step forward. It was like, I know I got a game that's like just fire for kids. Like they're just so excited about this. And the next thing was, all right, well, what do we make this box look like? The game itself involves a character and a die shaker and some sound effects. Like it's got all this stuff packed into this character, this chicken. And I was like, I can't just hide that. Like I have to put that in a box where you can see it. And that was really hard. The difference between box design for like an iPhone and a game is an iPhone will spend like a hundred dollars on that box. With the materials and making it beautiful. And when you open your iPhone, you take the box and you throw it away.

• 1:19:31Speaker 02

  In a game, you've got about 40 cents to spend on the box and it has to last forever. It sucks. The equation is totally backwards. But I needed a thing that displayed the chicken and told you it made noise and lets you shake around the die. And still hold its structure as a box so that you could remove this thing, play with it, and then re-insert it into the box in a way that isn't going to mess with the integrity of the box. Structural integrity. So that was really hard, but we finally solved that.

• 1:20:01Tim Ferriss?

  Did you do that before or after you started testing the waters with retailers?

• 1:20:06Speaker 02

  After.

• 1:20:07Tim Ferriss?

  After.

• 1:20:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:08Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, what is, not to, I don't want to hijack.

• 1:20:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:11Tim Ferriss?

  But whenever it makes sense, I would love to know how, at what point you start testing the waters.

• 1:20:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, we do this backwards. So, most people, and when we started, you have to do it the opposite way. You have to walk in to those sales pitches and you have to say, here's the final product. Look how beautiful it is. You don't have to trust us that this isn't going to sell. You can look at this thing and know that it's going to sell. For this game, luckily, because we have a really good track record, we walked in with no box. All I walked in with was a rough idea, a name scribbled on a piece of paper. And I said, trust me, this is going to be great. We're going to solve everything. It's going to be amazing. And they said, okay, yeah, sold, let's buy it.

• 1:20:59Speaker 02

  That comes from 10 years of pitching them hit after hit.

• 1:21:02Tim Ferriss?

  I got it. So if it were earlier in Exploding Kittens' existence.

• 1:21:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:09Tim Ferriss?

  You go in with the finished box.

• 1:21:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're never taking a flyer on that.

• 1:21:11Tim Ferriss?

  Who creates the finished box? Do you guys create it in-house? How do you prototype something like that?

• 1:21:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, we have an incredible team. We have a large scale printer. We print on actual cardboard. We have a paper folder, right? So we can actually build the boxes.

• 1:21:23Tim Ferriss?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:21:24Speaker 02

  Which was an investment, like that's not off the shelf machinery. But normally, whatever manufacturer you're working with, they send you a prototype box, right? Because they make it and they want it, they want you to see the final product and that's what you go into the sales meetings with. You say like, look, here's the box. Here's how much it's going to weigh. Here's the final presentation. We've been working on it for a year and a half. Here it is. I walk into those meetings like, I got an idea. I've been working on it for three weeks. I want you to buy it right now. I don't have any materials to show you. So it's a different kind of pitch.

• 1:21:55Tim Ferriss?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:21:56Speaker 02

  That I'm very proud of because I've earned that, right? Like, and we haven't ever let them down.

• 1:22:01Tim Ferriss?

  So in the case of Cody, there was a lot of playtesting that was done before.

• 1:22:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:07Tim Ferriss?

  We ended up in line review meetings.

• 1:22:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, wow, we skipped that whole part, didn't we?

• 1:22:10Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:22:11Speaker 02

  All right.

• 1:22:12Tim Ferriss?

  So could you talk about your secret cabal of families?

• 1:22:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Cabal of families, I love it. All right, so.

• 1:22:21Tim Ferriss?

  Another chapter for your memoir.

• 1:22:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, right. That's a good title there. So here's how most game companies test games. If you had partnered with a different games company, here's what your experience would have been like. All right, we got a game. We really like it. It's really fun. Lots of internal testing. Everyone's on board. We now need external testing. And they go to these market research groups and they pull strangers in and they sit in a room with a one-way mirror and they show the game and they play the game with people they don't know. And they order in some crappy catered lunch and they play the game and then they rate it on a scale of one to 10 and they fill out this form that's like, here's what I liked and here's what I didn't like and here's what I would improve.

• 1:23:07Speaker 02

  And then you get to watch those videos and they present you back all these forms and you get to make a determination. Okay. Nobody plays games like that. You don't play games with strangers. When was the last time you played a board game with a stranger? Can't even remember. It doesn't happen, right? The testing procedure that all these other companies go through is fundamentally flawed. They're using a resource because it's the only resource that exists. So I sat down with, that's what we did our first time. We went through one of those companies and they gave us all the results. And I looked at these results and I was like, oh my God, we just burned $25,000 on this thing and it's useless. So I realized at that moment, because nothing better exists, we're going to have to build it ourselves. So I started reaching out to, at first, our Kickstarter community

• 1:23:51Speaker 02

  and then our Discord community and then our Reddit community as we grow and grow and grow and said, look, I got a bunch of prototypes. I need families and friends who get together regularly to play games and I'm going to mail you a free game. You don't even have to send it back to me. It's yours forever. You get this amazing prototype. All I ask in return is upon receiving it, within 24 hours, you play the game with your friends and family and you record the session and you send me that video. And that's it. That's all I want in return. And within about 12 months, we had 400 families sign up for this thing. They are called our Kitty Test Pilots. They're this incredible group of enthusiastic game players that give us the best feedback.

• 1:24:36Speaker 02

  And we don't have them fill out a questionnaire. All we ask them at the end of the test session, we say, look into the camera and answer one question. The only question we care about. Do you want to play again? And we know a game is ready when everybody looks into that lens and says, hell, yes. And that's it. That's our testing process.

• 1:24:56Tim Ferriss?

  What are some of the pass fail marks or green versus red signals that you look for? In other words, I imagine the response rate could vary, but you don't know if that's because people are busy or if it's the wrong time of year. Or maybe they looked at the game, the box and so on, and it just didn't sell them. So they didn't play it.

• 1:25:20Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 1:25:21Tim Ferriss?

  Is that something you pay attention to? Are the people, I'm sure I'm not the only person wondering this, like if they're part of this special VIP get free game group, are they disincentivized to say, hell, no, I would not play this game again. So do you get a false positive signal? Like, how do you think through what constitutes a thumbs up versus a thumb sideways versus a thumbs down?

• 1:25:46Speaker 02

  There are a lot of false positives for sure. And there's no way I can solve that problem. We prompt them in advance. We're like, look, we need to honestly, this game will get great if you tell us that something's broken with it. Like, we need to know that. Like, and they're motivated because we also send them the final version of the game. Right? So they know that's coming. They know a better version is coming if they help us make it better. So some of the problem is solved that way, but not all of it. So that's why the video is so important.

• 1:26:13Tim Ferriss?

  If they say, we had a great time and you're watching, you're like, they're not having a great time.

• 1:26:17Speaker 02

  Count the number of eye rolls, right? Or you know, a great one, they'll take the instructions. I love this. They'll open the instructions.

• 1:26:26Speaker 02

  And when you see, you see that eyes go wide and they like inhale.

• 1:26:30Tim Ferriss?

  Pull back and like.

• 1:26:31Speaker 02

  It's like, oh.

• 1:26:32Tim Ferriss?

  Instruction app.

• 1:26:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, something. That's terrible, right? And that's really important and there's no survey in the world they can fill out that's going to tell me that.

• 1:26:41Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:42Speaker 02

  You need to watch the moment.

• 1:26:43Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, because they, they may not even realize they're doing it.

• 1:26:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:26:46Tim Ferriss?

  So how are they going to report it?

• 1:26:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that's why the video is so important and we have very specific instructions for the video, right? Like.

• 1:26:52Tim Ferriss?

  And what are they? Cause I'm wondering, how in the hell do you review 400 videos?

• 1:26:56Speaker 02

  Oh, well, one, we watch them at like 4X speed. And two is we've got a whole team of people that watch them and they flag moments. They don't even say why this moment is important. Something happened here, something happened here, some, I'm going to go on to the next video now. And then the next group of people will go through and look at those flags and say, oh, they're big. Deep inhale, rules confusion.

• 1:27:16Tim Ferriss?

  Nerd question, what do you use software wise for flagging stuff?

• 1:27:20Speaker 02

  Vimeo.

• 1:27:20Tim Ferriss?

  Vimeo?

• 1:27:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:21Tim Ferriss?

  Okay.

• 1:27:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:22Tim Ferriss?

  So you have people upload their videos to Vimeo?

• 1:27:24Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:27:25Tim Ferriss?

  Got it.

• 1:27:26Speaker 02

  So this whole process takes months and it's really important. And the other thing is like, I got 400 test families, but I'm only going to send out five games at a time. Reason is I need to collect that feedback, make changes and send out the next batch. Otherwise I've got 10 results for a version and it's used. I know what, I know what the next five are going to be like, because I saw them on the first five.

• 1:27:47Tim Ferriss?

  I got it. So is it then, just to state my understanding, with the kitty test pilots, you basically have, you're not sending out the same version to 400, 600 people at once.

• 1:27:59Speaker 02

  Five at a time.

• 1:28:00Tim Ferriss?

  Five at a time. And then you look at that cohort. And see what comes back.

• 1:28:04Speaker 02

  It's always the same stuff.

• 1:28:05Tim Ferriss?

  Then you tweak, then it goes out to the next group.

• 1:28:08Speaker 02

  Next five.

• 1:28:09Tim Ferriss?

  Over what period of time do you get a prototype to the max number you're, who are going to receive it?

• 1:28:15Speaker 02

  It usually like, I would say six to eight months. We're tweaking two things. One is we're tweaking gameplay. But much more commonly, we're tweaking the instructions because gameplay has already survived internal testing. So we know the game is fun. If we know this game is fun, and then we watch a video of people not having fun, chances are it's the instructions, not the game. And so that's what we start attacking at that moment.

• 1:28:38Tim Ferriss?

  Got it. What are some of the risks of internal testing? Because I've always wondered, for instance, when I have, as I'm doing right now, having, doing a bunch of writing, and I have people proofreading or test reading my writing.

• 1:28:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:53Tim Ferriss?

  I do not only do it with professional writers.

• 1:28:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:56Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, they're very good. And I know I'm very fortunate to know some amazing writers.

• 1:29:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:00Tim Ferriss?

  But they're also a little too close to the material, right? It's like a travel writer who can't stop looking at their travel experience through the lens of a writer. They have lost the ability to just travel and have fun.

• 1:29:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:29:12Tim Ferriss?

  What are some of the risks, if any, of internal testing?

• 1:29:15Speaker 02

  So you and I have the same instinct here. I remember when we were testing this game internally, hadn't gone out the door yet.

• 1:29:20Tim Ferriss?

  This game?

• 1:29:20Speaker 02

  This game, Coyote.

• 1:29:21Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:22Speaker 02

  I remember you would say, hey, can you show me test results? But can you have like your accounting team test it instead of your game design team? And I remember thinking like, yeah, that's what we do. Like, I'm not interested in the game design team's results. So I would show you the accounting team's results, and I would show you like the sales team's results, who hadn't even ever seen the game.

• 1:29:43Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:44Speaker 02

  Our internal testing starts out with the game design team, of course, but very quickly has to move on to the other teams, specifically the other teams who have never seen the game and don't know the background. Because those are really the only tests that we care about.

• 1:29:57Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:57Speaker 02

  So your instinct is perfect there. And I'm very happy to say you didn't have to teach us that. We already knew that part.

• 1:30:04Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, from teaching you anything, I don't know what it would be, other than my obsessive focus on, I'm sorry for the volume of email, and the volume of text messages, and the volume of, you know, everything. It's

• 1:30:18Speaker 02

  Every single one of those made the game better. Truly, truly. I mean, okay, look, we've only done, we've done, I think, two partnerships total, three partnerships total. We did a game with Pendelat of Penn and Teller. We did a game with Jeff Probst of Survivor. And then we've done a game with Tim Ferriss. You probably sent more notes than the other two combined.

• 1:30:37Tim Ferriss?

  I sent a lot of notes. Sent a lot of notes. I really had a blast with it. And I remember this moment, and I'm wondering if this happened before or after the line review meetings. I think it might have been Afterwards, but you could place it for me because this is my first game and I don't put my name on anything, right? That was part of the very truthful pitch. It's not like one of, you know, I don't have Tim Ferriss Microwave enchiladas and, you know, Tim Ferriss, sneakers. And then just as an aside, I have a Tim Ferriss gam. It's like, no, no, no,

• 1:31:17Tim Ferriss?

  I don't put my name on anything. So I take it very, very seriously. And I think it was, tell me if I'm getting this wrong, pretty sure it was Carly. It was amazing.

• 1:31:28Speaker 02

  Carly is the president of Splunkins.

• 1:31:30Tim Ferriss?

  Carly is incredible because there's always a fear for me at least where it's like in, maybe internally, I think it's great. And then it gets released into the wild and then, oh shit, there's a real problem. Like Houston, we have a problem.

• 1:31:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. And you can't take it back.

• 1:31:44Tim Ferriss?

  Right. So what do you do? And I remember Carly, I want to say sent a text to me. She was in, I want to say Germany, at some type of gaming convention or meeting of distributors. I don't remember the exact context, but she said Coyote was belle of the ball. She's like, you would not believe, we had an entire, like huge room full of people playing, smashing on the tables over and over and over and over again. And I was like, whoo.

• 1:32:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. Isn't that a great feeling?

• 1:32:16Tim Ferriss?

  Here we go, LFG.

• 1:32:18Speaker 02

  She, she sent me a video of that. So just to set the stage there, there's 2,000 people at this hotel of the like 25 hotels that are part of this convention. And there's one games room and there's like 10 tables in there. And the idea is there should be a different game at every table and everyone's testing out the games and sampling them. And we put Coyote on one table. And almost immediately, people started gathering around. And so those people said, can we just grab another copy and we'll just put it on the next table? Just so not everyone has to gather around this one table because it looked so intriguing. And so they sent it to another table. And then by the time Carly sent me a video, it was at every table in the room. Like it was just an entire hotel playing

• 1:33:01Speaker 02

  this one game because nobody wanted to play anything else.

• 1:33:04Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Wild.

• 1:33:05Speaker 02

  It was so neat. It was so, and like, how gratifying. Like, you know, we've been killing ourselves on this thing. And to see an audience receive it and say,

• 1:33:16Speaker 02

  Thank you for the gift.

• 1:33:17Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah, totally. And also, I mean, I sent it to you guys. And look, it says technically, it says age 10 plus. So I don't want to contradict that. But if you're willing to modify the rules, which is something that I encourage, and we have that in the instructions, house rules, feel free to modify the rules. But I sent you guys the video of my friend's four year old after she played, which was such an amazing video. And this is the first thing I've ever done that can include families and kids, right? Directly. Where it's like, four year old, 10 year old is not going to have any interest or necessarily the capacity to read one of my phone books. They're like 600 pages long. It's not gonna happen. So

• 1:34:01Tim Ferriss?

  this is also so much fun to finally now that it's kind of released into the wild to start seeing these things bubbling up that I hoped would be there.

• 1:34:11Speaker 02

  It's the reason you make a game, right? You want to share an experience that then the recipients get to share with those people that they love. That's why you make a game. That's exactly what we made here.

• 1:34:21Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. So let's talk about the selling process a little bit more because you said, right? There's the game development, there's building the game, there's crafting the game.

• 1:34:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:34:29Tim Ferriss?

  But there is an equally important part, which is how do you get this thing into people's hands? And for that, you need distribution.

• 1:34:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:34:38Tim Ferriss?

  So could you, this is gonna be a callback, remember that line review, the very beginning? Then I took us on a very meandering path, but there was a point to it. How do you pitch big retailers? How does that happen? And like, how did you do it in the beginning of Exploding Kittens? And how, I know it's changed over time as you've built your track record, but nonetheless, you still need to do it. And actually, here's a data point that most people will never hear anyone talk about. What percentage of your sales are offline retail versus online?

• 1:35:12Speaker 02

  All right, we'll start there. Yeah, we never share these numbers. But for you, Tim.

• 1:35:16Tim Ferriss?

  Thank you.

• 1:35:17Speaker 02

  Here we go. 70% of our sales are in-person retail. Only 30% are online sales. Totally backwards than what you'd expect for almost any industry. But yeah, people like to walk into a store. They like to see and touch and feel the game and flip it over and read the back and compare it to the other games. And that's where we sell our games, which means. Not only do I need tremendous retail buy-in, those sales meetings are so important, those line reviews, but also the game has to sell itself on the shelf, right? When you're walking down that games aisle, 70% of our audience does this. You need to look at all the game, hundreds of games, and you need to stop dead in your tracks on this one.

• 1:36:03Speaker 02

  And you needed to say, ooh, what's that? Right? And that's, starts at that line review, starts with getting them to say, not only are we going to commit to this game, but we're going to put it in multiple locations. So we, so you see it more than once, right? Very important. Also, we work with them to figure out the color scheme. And you and I, we did tons of surveys on the color scheme and the character and everything to stop people in their tracks.

• 1:36:27Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, so just a quick sidebar, and I keep doing this, but some of you may remember, and for those who never heard it, I'll just tell you, for my very first book, Four Hour Work Week, I used Google AdWords to test the top, let's just call it 10 title and subtitle contenders, right? So I bid on keywords that were related to the subject matter in the book. And then the sponsored results, the ads, were automatically split-tested, like multivariate-tested by Google. They will do this automatically. And then all of the URLs, I had different URLs for each title option, they just took people to an under-construction page because I didn't care about conversion.

• 1:37:09Tim Ferriss?

  I cared about interest, sufficient interest click.

• 1:37:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:37:14Tim Ferriss?

  And that is how I figured out the title. And then for the cover, back in the day, I went to Borders, which was on University Ave, Palo Alto, and I had a counter, like you might see from a bouncer at the front of a club. And I put different covers onto a book of the same dimensions on the shelf.

• 1:37:36Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 1:37:37Tim Ferriss?

  I guess I didn't tell you this, under the new non-fiction.

• 1:37:41Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 1:37:42Tim Ferriss?

  And I just, during the peak hours, over a couple of days, I just tracked the number of times it got picked up.

• 1:37:47Speaker 02

  Oh, that's so good.

• 1:37:48Tim Ferriss?

  And then I used that to determine which. Cover to use.

• 1:37:53Speaker 02

  Love this.

• 1:37:53Tim Ferriss?

  And now there are better, or certainly easier tools to use. So we ended up, there are a number of them. I'll just mention a few. So we used Picfu, P I C K F U dot com. There's also Intellivy, I N T L L I V Y. And then there's another one called Sticky Beak also. But these allow you to do roughly the same thing, which is you can take, for instance, with this box design, or any type of art, or you could probably do it with copy, many different things. You can survey people who fit a particular demographic. You could identify whatever the

• 1:38:34Tim Ferriss?

  ages, the gender, if they are members of a particular service, whether they have a prime membership, or this membership, or that membership. You can find, slice it however you want, and then you can serve up variants.

• 1:38:47Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:38:48Tim Ferriss?

  Right? So for this coyote, who you see on the cover, I'll explain to people. Basically, the box looks like a slightly enlarged box for a deck of cards. And then the top of the box is this beautiful autumnal orange, almost a saffron, like Buddhist robe.

• 1:39:08Speaker 02

  We spent so much time on these colors.

• 1:39:10Tim Ferriss?

  So much time on this. It is impossible to overstate how much time I spent on this, and everybody spent on it. Then there's this beautiful lime green. I remember taking photographs of particular leaves at particular times of the year with light coming through it to identify the, like, the hexadecimal or

• 1:39:30Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:39:31Tim Ferriss?

  Pantone.

• 1:39:32Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:39:33Tim Ferriss?

  Numbers for this particular green.

• 1:39:35Speaker 02

  I remember this well. Yeah.

• 1:39:36Tim Ferriss?

  You remember. And then looking at color theory and the color wheel, and oh my God, it went on and on. But above the coyote, which is in the center of the box, there is this

• 1:39:47Tim Ferriss?

  Upper portion of a cartoon coyote's head and very much trickster. Where it ended up is there's a little hat on the coyote. There's an earring, there's a wink and the snout is where it's cut off. So you don't see the nose, right? And this was originally, I remember sketching this initially on a zoom call by pen and paper and then holding it up to the zoom call to the camera. And then later sending the scan and then we worked from there. But we had variants with no hat. We had variants with no earring. We had variants with both eyes open, looking to camera, so to speak. We had both eyes open, looking in one direction, like off to the side.

• 1:40:28Tim Ferriss?

  And we were able to very quickly get a very good statistical signal on what people preferred.

• 1:40:34Speaker 02

  Yes. However.

• 1:40:36Tim Ferriss?

  However.

• 1:40:37Speaker 02

  To your credit, when you showed me that character, initially, both the coyote's eyes were open. And we had some questions about the hat. And I remember asking you all these questions. What do you think of a wink? What do you think of an earring? What do you think of a hat? What do you think of one eye closed, with both eyes closed? What do you, what do you think? What do you think? And to your credit, your answer was always, let's test it. Like, I don't want to have an opinion about this. I do have an opinion, but I don't even want to tell you. Let's test it. And that is such an intelligent way to approach this. And ultimately, this beautiful character that we ended up with was so clearly the winner. Like, it wasn't even close.

• 1:41:12Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, wasn't even close. And so we were able to get this very strong signal from thousands of people voting. And boom, here we are. Okay, so we were talking about the sort of road to retail, right? So it's 70% of your sales are in-person retail versus online.

• 1:41:32Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:41:32Tim Ferriss?

  And therefore, the stakes are high for these line review.

• 1:41:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, line reviews are a big deal. And I remember we really wanted to all show up in person. I remember you were trying so hard. Our first line review was with Walmart in Bentonville, Arkansas. I remember you wanted so badly to be there and there was some scheduling conflict that just wasn't gonna let it happen. And we tried to change the date, but again, you know, they've got so many meetings and you gotta get in at exactly this time. And they couldn't change it to anything appropriate. And I remember thinking like, oh, we're sunk. Like, I don't know how to sell this game without Tim there in the room, like showing how much passion he has. And you had a great solve. You just recorded a video of all that passion. And you sat down in front of the camera and you just riffed on the game.

• 1:42:20Speaker 02

  You were just like, here's why I love this. Here's why this is important to me. Here's why I made this game. First time I put my name on a thing. And you recorded this beautiful impassioned video. And I remember walking in to the line review and sitting down and saying, I have a new game. First thing I'm gonna do is we're gonna play this game. And I'm not gonna tell you anything about it. We're just gonna play this game. And I set up the game and within five minutes, they're laughing and they're having this incredible time. And they're like, oh, this is amazing. This is so much fun. How are you gonna sell this thing? And I said, I'm gonna play a video for you now. And that was it. It was that one-two punch. It was like, we've nailed game design and we've nailed the pitch.

• 1:43:02Speaker 02

  Like, we know exactly who to talk to and how to talk to them. And they saw those two elements and they're like, full line purchase. Every single store is getting this game.

• 1:43:17Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, wild.

• 1:43:18Speaker 02

  I mean, that has never happened on an initial pitch for us, ever. Normally, we get into a subset of stores and then eventually it rolls out to all the stores. This was the first time ever they said, whatever it takes, we need this game everywhere.

• 1:43:32Tim Ferriss?

  Which is, I mean, still very surreal for me and I'm so grateful, obviously. And it's terrifying at the same time, not gonna lie. This is Mr. Dip the toe, then one foot, then wait up to the ankles. This is just

• 1:43:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, fire hose on.

• 1:43:47Tim Ferriss?

  Full Monty from second zero. What are other keys to?

• 1:43:53Tim Ferriss?

  Pitching in a line review. And that could also be, I'll just offer another option, which is what are some common mistakes that people make, whether you suspect people make?

• 1:44:05Speaker 02

  So the first most common mistake.

• 1:44:08Tim Ferriss?

  Because this could be for games, but it could be for cosmetics, it could be for anything.

• 1:44:11Speaker 02

  For anything. The first question is, how are you represented in that room? Remember I said they only take a certain number of meetings? It took us like five years to get one of those meetings.

• 1:44:20Tim Ferriss?

  Wow. Even with the

• 1:44:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:44:23Tim Ferriss?

  thunderous, crazy lightning in a bottle success of exploding.

• 1:44:26Speaker 02

  They only have so many hours.

• 1:44:27Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. So what you have to do instead is you find someone who already has a meeting and you hire them as your publisher and then they represent your game in their meeting. That's how most companies do it. And that's how we did it for years. So the first problem is you have to make sure that whoever's representing you, assuming you can't be in the room, because 99.9% of the people can't, they are representing you the right way with enough attention. They're pitching it the right way. They're representing it the right way. They're saying the right words. They're conveying the right fun.

• 1:44:58Tim Ferriss?

  How do you ensure that?

• 1:44:59Speaker 02

  It's a personal relationship and it's just hard. It's really, and to be honest, I don't want to name names, but we went through like three different publishers and I wasn't happy with how.

• 1:45:09Tim Ferriss?

  How did you, this, this may, may not be something you can talk about, but how did you craft the deal structure such that you could take a swing and then you're like, okay, swing and a miss, we're going to go to someone else and then swing and a miss, we're going to go to someone else.

• 1:45:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:23Tim Ferriss?

  How are those deals structured?

• 1:45:25Speaker 02

  We got very lucky because our Kickstarter campaign was so through the roof.

• 1:45:30Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:31Speaker 02

  That fed into our Amazon sales immediately. And so I could go from publisher to publisher saying, you know, look how many games I sold last week, look how many I sold the week before that. This is a prestigious title that you want to represent. And then when they wouldn't represent me properly, wouldn't get the right sales, couldn't get the right deal structure in place, because we also demand quite a bit as far as where the game is placed. Is it in aisle? Is it out of aisle? Meaning is it in the game section or somewhere else?

• 1:46:00Tim Ferriss?

  Ankle height versus eye height.

• 1:46:02Speaker 02

  Exactly right. Those bottom shelves are like a death sentence, right? They're like, nobody looks down there. Can we get games at checkout, like where they're selling chewing gum? Can we put games there? Can we get games in the catalog? All this stuff that I wanted for our games. Was just not being properly represented for us. So eventually, after our sales got high enough, I finally was able to stop doing that silly dance with these publishers and we were able to publish our own games.

• 1:46:29Tim Ferriss?

  Quick question. So if I'm hearing you correctly, the success of the direct consumer, right, the DTC, Kickstarter, Amazon, or I should say online, those successes allowed you to dictate certain deal terms with the publishers. You had flexibility.

• 1:46:46Speaker 02

  And they allow us to say, you want to represent us. Even then, they only have a one, maybe two hour meeting. And so there's only so many games they can pitch, right? So how do they fill that library?

• 1:46:57Tim Ferriss?

  And then you get to the point where you can go and book those meetings yourself. How important was having a critical mass of SKUs? Because I have to imagine if I'm a major retailer, I don't want to have a meeting with someone who only has one thing to sell.

• 1:47:11Speaker 02

  That's why we couldn't do it at first. It was only once we had, I think, 10 games was the magic number to make it worth their while.

• 1:47:16Tim Ferriss?

  Mm hmm. Okay, I got it.

• 1:47:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that takes a long time, right? And it's not just 10 games. It's 10 best sellers.

• 1:47:23Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:24Speaker 02

  And unless you're there, they're just like, yeah, just go through a publisher. Like, we don't have time for it. We take 10 meetings. We don't have time for an 11th.

• 1:47:32Tim Ferriss?

  All right. So what have you learned, understanding, but to the extent possible, if we can put aside the element of exploding kittens having and developing this incredible track record, which allows you to not cut corners in a bad way, but you can go in without a finished prototype of the box, et cetera.

• 1:47:51Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:47:51Tim Ferriss?

  If we put that aside for the moment, what have you learned about line reviews? If you look at your first outing versus

• 1:47:59Speaker 02

  Oh, I love the

• 1:48:00Tim Ferriss?

  The more refined

• 1:48:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:48:02Tim Ferriss?

  line reviews. And I'm spending a lot of time on this, guys, because this applies to everything. Like, it applies to so much.

• 1:48:10Tim Ferriss?

  You have a movie? Okay, fine. How are people gonna see the movie? Yeah, you can go direct, but you might want a distribution partner. Like what we're talking about will apply to that pitch meeting, a lot of it.

• 1:48:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:48:19Tim Ferriss?

  And it's sort of the stuff that mainstream magic is made of.

• 1:48:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:48:24Tim Ferriss?

  Is figuring out how to craft these meetings.

• 1:48:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. Remember you said, like it or not, you're in sales?

• 1:48:30Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:31Speaker 02

  Here it is. This is where the rubber meets the road. Like dust off your tap dancing shoes, because holy crap, these are tough. So you have to walk into that meeting and first you have to keep in mind, you are their 10th meeting.

• 1:48:43Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:44Speaker 02

  Even if you're not their 10th meeting, you're their 10th meeting, right? Like they're, they're in this like, I'm tired, I want to get out of this room. I've been at this for too long. Like they're in that mindset. So the first thing you gotta do is get them out of that funk. You need them to understand that this is going to be the best of the 10 meetings. And you do that with enthusiasm, you do that with props, you do that with a cool video, right? Like the stuff that can get them out of, oh, this isn't like the other meetings? Cool. Like, that's where you start. We show up with two of those suitcases, not the little carry on ones, like the giant crazy roller bag suitcases, and they're filled with products. So we fill those two suitcases with games, like the most beautiful games we've got,

• 1:49:28Speaker 02

  even stuff that we're not pitching that day, even stuff we know will never see the light of day, because we're going to set all of those up. And the basic premise is buy into this world. Exploding kittens is not a product, it's a whole world. And you can have this world on your store shelves. And so that's how we start. And that's a really nice way to start. Okay, then what they're expecting is, okay, pitch us a game, one at a time. Pitch this. Okay, you're done. Okay, pitch the next one. Okay, you're done. Pitch the next one. So what we do is very different. Instead of pitching a game and then pitching the next one, just like I said, for Coyote, we're like, hey, we're going to play a game. And usually they say, we don't have time to play, can you just pitch it? And I say, no, we're gonna play a game.

• 1:50:14Speaker 02

  Confrontation, I get it, but I force them to play the games, every single one of them. Now, I'm not going to play all the way through. I'm not going to spend 10 or 20 minutes.

• 1:50:22Tim Ferriss?

  All right. This might seem like a trivial detail, but I don't think it is.

• 1:50:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:27Tim Ferriss?

  You in a tuxedo and a top hat for this, dressed in your Sunday's finest.

• 1:50:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, it's so funny. So I learned this in my Microsoft days. Like if I dress up, if I wear a tuxedo, if I wear a suit, if I even wear a button up shirt, nobody takes me seriously because I'm supposed to be the creative guy, right? I have to wear the creative guy uniform. I have to wear a T-shirt. I have to wear jeans. Otherwise, no one looks at me. So that's how I show up. Luckily, it's a really comfortable uniform for me.

• 1:50:57Speaker 02

  So I force them to play and I'm there being like the game's biggest cheerleader. I don't usually let them win, but I usually orchestrate a scenario in the game where they're having as much fun as possible. And my goal is for them to have exactly those emotions that we talked about. When we start, I need them to think, I can do that. And then a minute in, I need them to think, oh, I did that. What's next? Oh, I can do that next thing too. And I'm just crafting that. And right at the point where they're like, oh, I know what the next thing is. I pull the game away. We're done playing. And now let me tell you how we're going to sell this game. And it's because at that point they're drooling and I do that 10 times in a meeting. And we just keep hitting that over and over.

• 1:51:39Speaker 02

  And I am very aware that the last two games I pitch are usually not going to be purchased because they're exhausted, because that roller coaster, they've been up and down too many times.

• 1:51:48Tim Ferriss?

  So you're going to have to figure out the sequence.

• 1:51:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:51:51Tim Ferriss?

  Do you start with the game you hope is going to be the big purchase? Or how do you sequence it?

• 1:51:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, we open with our shortest, easiest pitch. And what that usually is, is an exploding kittens expansion. So if I need to sell an expansion box or a new exploding kittens product, and I know I don't have to work very hard to sell it because they always sell, that'll take the first spot. That just warms the waters, gets us all east and.

• 1:52:16Tim Ferriss?

  Little yes momentum.

• 1:52:17Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:52:18Tim Ferriss?

  Doesn't hurt.

• 1:52:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. The number two spot is the glory spot. Like whoever's there is, that's the game I'm actually pitching today. That's where Coyote was, right? Like that's the big thing we're going to talk about. And then the next five are equal. Like it doesn't matter what order they are. Those are, usually we'll sell all five of those at a typical meeting, all five. What happens after that is very iffy.

• 1:52:41Tim Ferriss?

  Now, you mentioned you play the game, you get them super excited, hopefully they're drooling over it, and then you say, all right, I'm gonna take the game away, here's how we're gonna sell it. What is included in the, here's how we're gonna sell it?

• 1:52:54Speaker 02

  Okay, so important. So this has changed over the last three years. It used to be, I have to start with the box. And we still, I shouldn't say it used to be, it still is, we start with the box. Look how beautiful this thing is, here's, and we do a mock-up, here's how it looks on the shelf, and it's usually from a photograph we took like that morning, like, we want to show you, hey, Target, here's what your shelf looks like, hey, Walmart, here's what your shelf looks like, here is our game, right there in line.

• 1:53:18Tim Ferriss?

  And I should mention, this probably goes without saying, but you were not just showing up and winging it. I mean, you guys

• 1:53:24Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 1:53:24Tim Ferriss?

  rehearse like you're gonna be performing once in a lifetime at Carnegie Hall.

• 1:53:29Speaker 02

  It is, if we screw up this meeting, our company is screwed. Like, we don't survive a bad meeting. So, yeah, there is nothing that matters more than this. This is arguably 70% of our business this year. If we mess up this meeting, we will see a 70% drop. Like, if they bought zero games, I don't know that our company would survive that. So, it's a big deal. We rehearse constantly, we make changes constantly, we make all these props, like, we try to get the spot either right after breakfast, or right after lunch, because that's when they're in the best moods. All of it is orchestrated, and so carefully.

• 1:54:09Speaker 02

  Every single thing is orchestrated. Who's in the meeting? How many chairs are we gonna fill?

• 1:54:14Tim Ferriss?

  How do you request those time slots? Because I imagine you're not the only people who are thinking about this, right? It makes me think of the data, it's like a kind of meta-analysis long ago, looking at judges' verdicts, like, before-after meals?

• 1:54:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:54:30Tim Ferriss?

  And leniency?

• 1:54:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, right. So how do you get the right slots?

• 1:54:33Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, so how do you angle for those?

• 1:54:36Speaker 02

  There is an art to that as well. So, we have agents, we have representatives, one for Target and one for Walmart. And these are people who live in those cities, and they live and breathe sales with the sales rep. So, their job, the very kind of cynical way to say it is, they're like lobbyists, right?

• 1:54:57Tim Ferriss?

  Ambassadors.

• 1:54:59Speaker 02

  Ambassadors, there we go, that's a much more appropriate way. They have been doing the job for longer than the salespeople have, longer than the buyers have. And as a result, the relationship that they have with the buyers is actually one of education, right? Because they've seen all the mistakes, they know where all the landmines are, they know how to avoid them. And so, part of the art of getting the best meetings, of getting yourself set up the best, is to hire the best agent.

• 1:55:25Tim Ferriss?

  How does someone find said agents?

• 1:55:28Speaker 02

  Friends of friends of friends.

• 1:55:29Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:30Speaker 02

  The best ones already have too many clients, right?

• 1:55:32Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 1:55:33Speaker 02

  You can't.

• 1:55:33Tim Ferriss?

  The usual situation.

• 1:55:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. But if you have a good enough brand, if you have the right relationships, if you can talk to the right people, and if you're persistent, you can get the right agents. I actually thought we didn't need an agent at all at first. I was like, we can just do, we're gonna show up the day before, we're gonna walk into these meetings. And some very good friends of mine in the industry said, "You're an idiot. This is not gonna work." So we started working with agents, and they're incredible. I mean, they know the industry.

• 1:56:02Tim Ferriss?

  Just to dig into that a little, why wouldn't that work? Is it that the code of etiquette and the way everything has been set up involves those agents, and therefore it wouldn't work? Or are there other reasons why going in guns blazing?

• 1:56:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:56:17Tim Ferriss?

  Without representation would work?

• 1:56:18Speaker 02

  The answer is both. So, the buyers are much less likely to take you seriously unless you have an agent in the room. And part of that is just because-

• 1:56:25Tim Ferriss?

  I guess part of it is just like, these fools don't know how this is done.

• 1:56:28Speaker 02

  Exactly right.

• 1:56:28Tim Ferriss?

  Right? They're showing up to Downton Abbey wearing a tank top.

• 1:56:31Speaker 02

  Exactly right.

• 1:56:32Tim Ferriss?

  And they don't know how to use the silverware.

• 1:56:33Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:56:34Tim Ferriss?

  Why should I trust their ability to be a good partner and actually get things done on time if they haven't done their homework?

• 1:56:38Speaker 02

  Precisely. And the other half is, you haven't done your homework.

• 1:56:42Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:42Speaker 02

  Like, you actually don't know. You actually don't know how to use the silverware, right? When we walk into a meeting, the agent has done a year's worth of work prepping for that meeting. They have made sure the buyers know what you're going to pitch, how many games you're going to pitch, what the order of the games is. They've made sure that you know the sales for the previous purchases they've made going into the meeting. So they already have the confidence in like, yes, these people are going to deliver. They've made sure that inventory levels are where they need to be so that a meeting doesn't get sidetracked by them saying, this game is sold out. How did you let that happen? Right? Like so many things can go wrong that the agent is fixing before they go wrong. So that the meeting stays on the rails and gets you to success.

• 1:57:24Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, got it.

• 1:57:24Speaker 02

  It's a full time job.

• 1:57:26Tim Ferriss?

  And so that agent is the person who lobbies for the appointment.

• 1:57:31Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:57:31Tim Ferriss?

  After breakfast or lunch.

• 1:57:33Speaker 02

  But you have to know to ask for it. Right? You have to, because your agent has other clients, right? They're gonna sit through maybe three, sometimes four meetings in that sell cycle. And they're going to give that prime slot to the one who asks for it. So you've got to know to ask for it. Here I am telling you on this podcast, it's probably going to make my job a little bit harder for the next sales round, but so be it.

• 1:57:56Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. I mean, people that say need to hop through a few hoops before.

• 1:57:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:58:02Tim Ferriss?

  Bible competition.

• 1:58:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. There's a few other tricks.

• 1:58:05Tim Ferriss?

  And we will, and we are going to come back to if you're just developing a game at your kitchen table, what are some of the first steps?

• 1:58:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:58:13Tim Ferriss?

  So we're going to get to that.

• 1:58:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:58:15Tim Ferriss?

  But in the meantime, you said a couple of tricks of the trade?

• 1:58:17Speaker 02

  There's a few more. I should be a little careful about what I say, but look.

• 1:58:21Tim Ferriss?

  You can always bleep things and edit later.

• 1:58:22Speaker 02

  So you want to pay attention to, believe it or not, all of the retailers have color themes year by year. So you want to make sure that when you walk into a meeting, your boxes match that color scheme. It makes it much easier for them to say yes.

• 1:58:38Tim Ferriss?

  Had no idea.

• 1:58:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, right. I know. Because why would you? Because why would anybody? Right? There's things like those agents are given permission to read the notes from the all hands meeting from the company. So they know what the company's priorities are. And so you want to sit down with your agent in advance and say, Those buyers, what are they going to get promotions and raises based on this year? Is it more throughput at the store? Is it promote online sales? Is it match the color scheme? Is it whatever, whatever it is? You want to make sure. Yeah. And you want to make sure that when they look at your games, they think, I'm really trying to promote online sales this year. Whoa, this game would do great on our website.

• 1:59:23Speaker 02

  And then the next game, this game would do great on our website as well. And by the time you get to the end of the meal, they're like, oh, my God, I can get a promotion if I just buy all 10 of these games. Right? Like, that's what you want them to walk away with.

• 1:59:33Tim Ferriss?

  All right. So these meetings are huge. We've established this.

• 1:59:37Speaker 02

  Huge deal. So important.

• 1:59:38Tim Ferriss?

  You mentioned a couple of tricks to the trade.

• 1:59:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:59:41Tim Ferriss?

  Any other tips, tricks, learnings along the way?

• 1:59:46Speaker 02

  So what happens after those meetings is also very important. There's two things we have to talk about. One is pricing structure and the other is marketing. So in the meeting, you talk a little bit about both. You have to now include marketing. Remember I said three years ago, things were different than today? Three years ago, the marketing plan that you show for your game is largely your own website. Maybe you've bought some TV commercials, things like billboards, product placement here and there, things like that. Today, none of that matters. All they care about is social media because that's the only form of marketing for games that works anymore.

• 2:00:22Tim Ferriss?

  I should say also, it particularly works on, as my understanding, right? Platforms like TikTok or now that other platforms have realized to avoid TikTok consuming their market share, they need to push and reward short form video.

• 2:00:37Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 2:00:37Tim Ferriss?

  Short form video, casual games are perfectly suited.

• 2:00:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:00:42Tim Ferriss?

  To short form video.

• 2:00:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. And the way that you build the most effective videos for those is you need to inspire, I think, two emotions. One, I understand what those people are experiencing right now. And two, I would like to experience that. And it took me forever to get to those two sentences. Right? At first it was, let's show gameplay, let's show setup, let's show a memorable moment, let's show people screaming and yelling because they're having so much fun. None of that matters. None of that works. That looks like fun. I could have that much fun. That's it. That's what you're trying to show.

• 2:01:21Tim Ferriss?

  How does that differ from the first?

• 2:01:24Speaker 02

  It's very, very focused, right? Like you want to, remember we talked about mastery early on?

• 2:01:29Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I also asked you guys because we were talking about this very early on in the process, right?

• 2:01:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:01:33Tim Ferriss?

  Also, because if I'm procrastinating, doing something hard, I like to talk about the marketing because it's so easy for me to talk about. But I wanted to see examples of videos that had worked.

• 2:01:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:01:44Tim Ferriss?

  For any of your games.

• 2:01:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:01:45Tim Ferriss?

  Right? Social posts. And so they were set up and I was like, okay, I think I can do this. Why this works?

• 2:01:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:01:51Tim Ferriss?

  Often it was like one person playing, the other person kind of like struggling to guess what the other person was doing.

• 2:01:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:01:57Tim Ferriss?

  And one person losing it laughing, right?

• 2:02:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:02:00Tim Ferriss?

  Just inconsolably, but in the best possible way, like losing it, getting the giggles out of control.

• 2:02:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. Okay. So I'll tell you, one of the most effective pieces of media we have ever used was for poetry for Neanderthals. This has like, at this point, like, I don't know, tens of millions of views. And all it is, is here's how you play poetry for Neanderthals. I have a secret word on this card. I have to get you to say that word and I can only speak using single syllable words. That's the whole game. If I mess up, someone sitting next to me has a giant inflatable Neanderthal club and they get to bonk me on the head. All right. So there's our whole game. The best video we've ever seen is someone who's trying to get a person to say the word garage. And we know they're trying to get the person to say the word garage because we put that right on the screen. We show you, here's the secret word. It's garage. And they're just saying, car, go here.

• 2:02:49Speaker 02

  Car hole, car hole, this car hole, big car hole. And everyone's losing it. And the poor person trying to guess is like, what the fuck's a car hole? Like glove compartment? What are you trying to say? And then they say like vehicle and multiple syllable word. And so they get bonked on the head. Okay. Here's why that video is so effective. It's those two sentences. One is, I see the experience they're having. I get that. And the secondary sort of corollary is, I could do better than that.

• 2:03:19Tim Ferriss?

  Is this a video, I think I remember seeing this where, this might have been a separate video, but there's a woman who's the poet and then there's the guy next to her, holding, holding the club, like-

• 2:03:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, so menacing, right?

• 2:03:31Tim Ferriss?

  The axe is gonna drop-

• 2:03:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:03:33Tim Ferriss?

  And everyone's losing it, including the guy at the back.

• 2:03:35Speaker 02

  Right, cuz you look at that and you say, "I understand the rules immediately," right? "I understand the experience they're having. I would like to have that experience."

• 2:03:43Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm.

• 2:03:44Speaker 02

  And that's what makes for an effective social media video.

• 2:03:47Tim Ferriss?

  Alright, so how do you pitch that?

• 2:03:49Speaker 02

  Well, we show a lot of examples and we show track record. We say, "Look, here's how many views our last round of videos got. Here's how many likes, here's how many shares, here's how many subscriptions," like all the stuff. We show them right there in the meeting. We never had to do that. Like, this is a brand-new phenomenon. And we say, "Here's the type of video that we're going to craft for this new game." And we always couch it in those two sentences. "Here's how we're going to explain the fun people are having, and here's how we're going to make the audience feel like they would like to have that much fun as well."

• 2:04:20Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm.

• 2:04:21Speaker 02

  And that's been very effective for us. So that's now half the meeting, right? Cuz every game, we start by, "I demo the game."

• 2:04:27Tim Ferriss?

  It's social media strategy.

• 2:04:28Speaker 02

  Yes. "I demo the game, I pull the game back, we talk a little bit about the pricing structure and the theme and the box and all that, and then we go right into social media strategy for that game." Because I have to spend as much time on that as I did on the game design cuz they are equally important now.

• 2:04:44Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm.

• 2:04:45Speaker 02

  It's huge, such a difference.

• 2:04:47Tim Ferriss?

  Alright, so for somebody listening who is thinking about making a game, and I really encourage everyone to do that, and I'm just gonna flash, this is as good a time as any, just to flash these blank cards that are within every Coyote box. And they are color-coded. You can use these to make action cards, which are these different gestures and actions and so on.

• 2:05:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, those are the templates that we-

• 2:05:11Tim Ferriss?

  These are the templates. You can use them to make Coyote cards, these modifiers. You can use them to make the attack cards, which you use to sabotage other people. There are other ways to play those cards. This is intended to invite everyone to basically create their own game by modifying the rules.

• 2:05:27Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 2:05:28Tim Ferriss?

  Or adding new elements that are uniquely their own. You can have fun with your friends, you can have fun with your kids. I mean, this is intended to make you- A part of the creative process, which you will be part of anyway, just by the way you play the game.

• 2:05:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:05:42Tim Ferriss?

  But this takes it to another level. And this was a really important element for me. So this will be a warm up in a sense. You get to try game design, game development light.

• 2:05:52Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 2:05:53Tim Ferriss?

  With these blank cards. But let's say somebody then decides they want to give it a go.

• 2:05:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:05:59Tim Ferriss?

  Maybe it's with one of their kids, like you did with your daughter.

• 2:06:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:06:02Tim Ferriss?

  Maybe it's by themselves. Who knows? Maybe it's going to the game shop, local game shop, which I really recommend people do. If you've never been to like a real proper game shop.

• 2:06:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:06:12Tim Ferriss?

  Go in on a game night when people are set up and also check out the games you might not be inclined to check out. So if you're a casual gamer, like go to a Warhammer night, see what that's about.

• 2:06:23Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 2:06:24Tim Ferriss?

  You know, check out like these different worlds.

• 2:06:26Speaker 02

  You know, another secret weapon is go to a game shop, find the owner or even the person behind the counter, like someone who knows what they're talking about and just say, I'm looking for a game. What game do you wish more people would give a try? And you will find the gems that way.

• 2:06:42Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:42Speaker 02

  Cause they know, but maybe the game doesn't have the best box or the best name or some, it fell short somewhere and, and, and people just aren't buying it. But they know it's amazing. That's where you find them.

• 2:06:53Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:53Speaker 02

  It's a great experience.

• 2:06:55Tim Ferriss?

  So start testing the waters now. It's so easy to do. In a place like Austin, I mean, this is Austin, people might think of game locations and X, Y, Z. They're all over the place.

• 2:07:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:07:06Tim Ferriss?

  There happens to be a really vibrant scene here. And if one wanted to start developing their own game, let's say they find something that starts to stick.

• 2:07:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:07:19Tim Ferriss?

  Right? Okay. Okay. We've got a tiger by the tail. This seems to be working. They're playtesting it. Might take a while, like Settlers of Catan, I think Klaus Toibert had like 150 versions before really like, that's a, that's a complex game.

• 2:07:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:07:33Tim Ferriss?

  But let's say they start to develop the game and they're like, all right, I would like to try to sell this.

• 2:07:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:07:40Tim Ferriss?

  What are the options?

• 2:07:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:07:42Tim Ferriss?

  What would you say to someone who's like, they're smart?

• 2:07:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:07:46Tim Ferriss?

  They can plan.

• 2:07:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:07:47Tim Ferriss?

  Like they've operated in the world before.

• 2:07:49Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 2:07:49Tim Ferriss?

  Right? So they're not new to adulting.

• 2:07:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:07:53Tim Ferriss?

  But they have no experience in selling games.

• 2:07:55Speaker 02

  There are three paths. I'll tell you all three paths and then I'll tell you my favorite one.

• 2:07:59Tim Ferriss?

  All right.

• 2:07:59Speaker 02

  Okay. Path number one, self-publishing.

• 2:08:03Speaker 02

  Self-publishing is hard, but you can print out your own decks. You can design everything yourself. You can write the rules yourself. You can do absolutely everything yourself. And then you can spend a few thousand dollars, publish a few hundred copies and send them out to all your friends. Okay, so that's option one. It sucks. Don't do that one. It's just the worst. I mean, you're just gonna make every mistake and...

• 2:08:26Tim Ferriss?

  You're gonna have to pay for your mistakes.

• 2:08:27Speaker 02

  And you pay for every mistake, right? And then, once you make the mistake, now you can't take it back. And you can't do it. Just don't self-publish. It's a terrible idea. Okay, there's number one. That's not my favorite one. Number two is you go to an existing publisher. Hasbro, Mattel, nowadays Exploding Kittens, right? Like, you can approach big publishers, pitch your game, and then strike a deal with them where they will handle all the risk, but they will also take most of the reward. Okay? You can still, honestly, get very rich this way, but you have to get into their portfolio, right? So either you need a track record, or you just have to absolutely wow them, or you have to show up with some bona fides. You can't just say, "I'm a brand-new designer.

• 2:09:11Speaker 02

  Here's my brand-new game. Please publish me."

• 2:09:14Tim Ferriss?

  How would you... Maybe there are exceptions, right? Where people have wowed them, first-time game designer with a game.

• 2:09:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:09:21Tim Ferriss?

  How does one do that?

• 2:09:23Speaker 02

  You go to a convention.

• 2:09:24Tim Ferriss?

  You go to a convention.

• 2:09:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, you go to a convention, you demo your game. They will all show up. They're like agents recruiting for a sports team, right? They're gonna show up to all of those places, and they're gonna walk the halls, and they're gonna check even the smallest booths. And they're gonna even go to the big convention halls where everyone just has their own little folding table, or even a temporary folding table, right? Like, they're gonna look at all of that stuff. So it is possible to do it that way. But you have to keep in mind, they have very few slots open, and they usually only have one or two agents, scouts, looking for games. So your chances of success there are low as a first time person. Much better if you can schedule a meeting and they will take that meeting. And then you can say, here's why you should not say no to this.

• 2:10:07Tim Ferriss?

  What are the things you can do or put in a pitch that increase the likelihood of getting a meeting? Outside of being an influencer, 20 million followers on Instagram.

• 2:10:16Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, that helps, right? But the reason that helps is what I was gonna say is the ability to sell the game. Whatever it is, maybe it's your.

• 2:10:23Tim Ferriss?

  By the way, also true of nonfiction writing.

• 2:10:25Speaker 02

  Exactly right.

• 2:10:26Tim Ferriss?

  If you're selling a book.

• 2:10:27Speaker 02

  And for selling a screenplay and for really selling anything, you need to be able to say, here's why people are going to take notice of this thing and why you would be a fool to pass on this opportunity. That's hard. Oftentimes, the best way to do that is to have already done it, which means your first time out, you need what I'm about to talk about, which is option three.

• 2:10:47Tim Ferriss?

  All right.

• 2:10:47Speaker 02

  Option three, crowdfunding. This is relatively new, right? Like 10, 15 years old.

• 2:10:54Tim Ferriss?

  So it is, I guess, self-publishing in a sense, but you're getting other people to fund the development.

• 2:10:59Speaker 02

  Two things. Yes to that. Exactly right. Other people are funding 100% of the development, which is incredible. But also you are collecting those funds on a platform that promotes the game. Right? People are there watching your video. You're trying to convince them.

• 2:11:13Tim Ferriss?

  It is a discovery platform.

• 2:11:15Speaker 02

  Exactly. Perfectly phrased. It is a discovery platform. That was missing 15 years ago. I mean, what, watch my self-published YouTube video and hopefully fund my game? It just didn't exist. So now people are looking at crowdfunding sites, looking for cool new experiences and backing them. And that's a new invention and that's really cool. And it's not my favorite one either. So I just said I picked my favorite and I just pitched three and I said, no, they're not my favorite.

• 2:11:43Speaker 02

  Here's my actual favorite. A combination of two and three. Start on crowdfunding, especially if it's your first time out. Learn everything you can. Your first project's probably gonna fail. That's okay. You got nothing at stake. You didn't lose anything. Fix it. Relaunch it. Fix it again. Relaunch it again. Take as many times as you need. There's nothing at risk here. You're just learning the process. Awesome. When you get a success on whatever crowdfunding platform you love, now go to those publishers and say, here are my bona fides. Here's proof that this thing is gonna sell. I've already sold this once. I've already gotten-

• 2:12:21Tim Ferriss?

  Do you do that before you have shipped the game?

• 2:12:23Speaker 02

  No. Very important. No. Ship the game first. If the only thing you can prove is that you are a train wreck waiting to happen, you will get nothing from them. So ship the game. Show that you're organized, even if it's a small fulfillment. Like you sell 100 copies of your game. Show that you can fulfill those 100 copies and then start to show the reactions to those. If you've only got 100 people who bought the game, reach out to every single one of them and beg them to record a video about how much they loved your game and now go to publishers with that. Right? Like, that's really what you're searching for. Use crowdfunding is exactly what it is, is a way to launch your new game to then take to step two.

• 2:13:03Tim Ferriss?

  Let me ask this. There may be people, listeners or watching, who think to themselves, that sounds awesome, but wasn't the heyday of crowdfunding three, four, or five years ago?

• 2:13:15Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:13:16Tim Ferriss?

  You hear less about it.

• 2:13:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:13:18Tim Ferriss?

  Certainly for, let's say, selling to 100 people or maybe many, many more. I'm sure there are runaway success campaigns even today. But are there any tweaks that you would add to it?

• 2:13:31Speaker 02

  It's really tricky. Okay, so here's what happened with crowdfunding. We launched on Kickstarter. Exploding Kittens launched on Kickstarter. And, you know, by some amazing twist of fate, that was perfect timing.

• 2:13:41Tim Ferriss?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:13:41Speaker 02

  Very few people had heard of Kickstarter. They heard about this funny, silly thing. It was drawn by the oatmeal. Matt already had this incredibly large audience. And people showed up and they said, ooh, crowdfunding, ooh, this thing costs 20 bucks. I'm gonna back this thing. And we had 219,000 people try that thing. Amazing. Right? Unheard of success. Those people then, over the next, let's call it five years, stayed on Kickstarter and they backed other things, other games, other projects, whatever. And what they found was the nature of Kickstarter is such that only about 50% of those projects shipped either.

• 2:14:20Speaker 02

  The thing that shipped was nowhere close to the thing promised, or the thing never shipped and they never got their money back. Whatever it is.

• 2:14:26Tim Ferriss?

  People got burnt.

• 2:14:27Speaker 02

  They got burnt and they had a terrible experience. And now, when you say, hey, back my Kickstarter, everyone's got this memory implanted of, oh, that was a bad experience for me. Maybe I even had some great experiences, but I also had those bad ones and this is not worth it. And I'm not going back to that site or any crowdfunding site. So that's the problem. We're not seeing the numbers we used to see because everyone's walking in with this baggage and it sucks. My only advice is there is now a secondary ecosystem around Kickstarter. Other websites that have gotten very good at promoting projects, that have gotten very good at advertising new offerings on Kickstarter and building trust, right? Like if you get on this other series.

• 2:15:12Tim Ferriss?

  So it's like a curated site.

• 2:15:15Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 2:15:15Tim Ferriss?

  That's projects.

• 2:15:16Speaker 02

  Exactly right. And here's the thing, those companies almost always take a percentage of what the maker gets in exchange for helping them with fulfillment, with creation, with everything. So not only are you buying into a trusted ecosystem, but you also know there's multiple parties involved that are going to work very hard to make sure you get that product.

• 2:15:38Tim Ferriss?

  What are some of those companies?

• 2:15:40Speaker 02

  I'd have to look them up.

• 2:15:41Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, yeah, no problem. All right, we'll put maybe links to a few of them in the show notes.

• 2:15:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a ton of them. They all have like the word backer in them somewhere. Backer found and backer this and backer that. Yeah, I just.

• 2:15:51Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, we'll put a couple of links in the show notes. tim.blog/podcast, you can find it. And I will also just give a shout out to a friend of mine who at some point you have to meet. Maybe you've met him already. Craig Maud, does that name ring a bell?

• 2:16:03Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 2:16:04Tim Ferriss?

  All right, so Craig is a gem of a human, amazing writer, also very technical as a software engineer, software development expert. And he, at one point, for his beautiful books that he has bound and crafted in Japan, these are works of art, they're absolutely beautiful. And he created basically a

• 2:16:29Tim Ferriss?

  I don't know if open source is the right term, but he does have the code available on GitHub for anybody who wants it called, I think it's called Craigstarter, which is effectively, if you want to host your own crowdfunding campaign.

• 2:16:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:16:43Tim Ferriss?

  And in his opinion, fix some of the bugs that were difficult to contend with.

• 2:16:49Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 2:16:50Tim Ferriss?

  Then boom, you can do that.

• 2:16:52Speaker 02

  Oh, I love that.

• 2:16:53Tim Ferriss?

  And I think he incorporated Shopify and other add-ons, different services could be sort of as modules. I'm sure I'm not using the right terminology, but incorporated into it. So people can also check that out. And I have two interviews with Craig. You should check out both of them. They're, they're absolutely fantastic. Okay. So if folks can look at these services as basically a stamp of credibility, they will help not only with the promotion, if you are so vetted, but with the fulfillment, right? Like a third-party legitimate.

• 2:17:25Speaker 02

  That's right. Now, I don't think we're going to see a crowdfunding campaign on the scale of exploding kittens these days.

• 2:17:31Tim Ferriss?

  Yep.

• 2:17:31Speaker 02

  There are a few exceptions. You just interviewed one of them. In fact.

• 2:17:35Tim Ferriss?

  Brandon Sanderson.

• 2:17:35Speaker 02

  Exactly. So like out of control.

• 2:17:38Tim Ferriss?

  Forty-five million dollar, or whatever it was, Kickstarter campaign for fantasy books.

• 2:17:43Speaker 02

  Bonkers.

• 2:17:44Tim Ferriss?

  Unheard of.

• 2:17:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, unheard of. But what I love is that that shows like this is not even a remotely dead platform.

• 2:17:52Tim Ferriss?

  No.

• 2:17:52Speaker 02

  There is success to be had here. You just have to be creative. He started out with a great fan base. He picked an incredible title. The first word of his campaign was surprise. No one's done that before. What does that mean? And just everything about it. Smart on top of smart on top of smart. I loved it. Loved it. So it's very possible, but it's also very rare and you have to be smart about it.

• 2:18:14Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Well, here's the thing. It's possible and who cares, right? It may not have the gravitational pull that it had five years ago.

• 2:18:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:18:23Tim Ferriss?

  But if you can't sell anything. In a crowdfunding campaign, you are not going to sell any buyer at mass retail.

• 2:18:31Speaker 02

  Absolutely right.

• 2:18:31Tim Ferriss?

  It's not gonna happen.

• 2:18:32Speaker 02

  Absolutely right.

• 2:18:33Tim Ferriss?

  And therefore, you save yourself years of banging your head against a brick wall.

• 2:18:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:18:39Tim Ferriss?

  When you're never gonna break through.

• 2:18:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:18:41Tim Ferriss?

  If you get, and this might not sound like good news, but if it's gonna fail, you want to fail as quickly as possible.

• 2:18:46Speaker 02

  It's great news, as long as you don't take it personally. As long as you say, this product-

• 2:18:51Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, how many games do you guys screw around with on any level? And how many make the cut?

• 2:18:58Speaker 02

  We probably work on 100 games a year and less than 20 make the cut.

• 2:19:04Tim Ferriss?

  That's with all of your experience?

• 2:19:05Speaker 02

  Hmm, yeah. Yeah. That's probably way higher than it should be. Like, I'm probably pushing forward games that have no right to be pushed forward. But again, don't take it personally. You say, this game is flawed. And the faster you can figure that out, the faster you can move on to a game that isn't flawed.

• 2:19:22Tim Ferriss?

  So if I heard you correctly, then it's crowdfunding.

• 2:19:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:19:27Tim Ferriss?

  You establish some numbers and so on that you can share.

• 2:19:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:19:31Tim Ferriss?

  That show traction at the same time, game reactions, et cetera. Then you take all of that to book a meeting at a trade show or a conference or convention with one of these publishers who already has the annual meetings and line reviews.

• 2:19:51Speaker 02

  Exactly right.

• 2:19:52Tim Ferriss?

  And you make a pitch to do a deal with them.

• 2:19:53Speaker 02

  That's my favorite path through this.

• 2:19:55Tim Ferriss?

  What deal terms do you need to pay attention to?

• 2:19:58Speaker 02

  So there is one very important number that you're gonna get, and it's gonna seem like a very low number. But here's how this works. Most publishers are gonna throw a number at you, like 2%.

• 2:20:10Tim Ferriss?

  Royalty rate.

• 2:20:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. And you're gonna think, wait a second, I was the inventor. I get 80% and you're offering me 2%?

• 2:20:19Speaker 02

  Here's what that number actually means. They, the publisher, are going to take on all the risk. They're going to do all the printing. They're going to do all the relationship management. They're going to do that sales meeting. They're supporting hundreds of people on their staff. They're doing all this stuff that you are not doing. But in exchange for that, that 2% isn't 2% of the profit. It's 2% of the revenue.

• 2:20:45Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, top line.

• 2:20:46Speaker 02

  Exactly. And that is a very important distinction. That makes that 2% probably closer to like 20%, 30%.

• 2:20:56Tim Ferriss?

  It's the opposite of Hollywood accounting.

• 2:20:58Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 2:20:59Tim Ferriss?

  It's not some percentage of net income, which is defined in some Byzantine way to

• 2:21:03Speaker 02

  Precisely.

• 2:21:04Tim Ferriss?

  Fuck you every which way from Sunday.

• 2:21:05Speaker 02

  Precisely right.

• 2:21:06Tim Ferriss?

  Just to reiterate what you said, like 2% is more like 20 plus percent.

• 2:21:10Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:21:11Tim Ferriss?

  Of profit.

• 2:21:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. And you can ask them to break down that math for you. You can say, show me the spreadsheet. Show me like what you're spending, what your responsibilities are, what mine are. After all of those numbers are crunched, what is the total amount you're going to spend on this game? Show me your total projections on what's coming in. Show me how much I'm going to make of that. And then you can start comparing those numbers yourself and see, oh, of the money that came in, I'm getting 20% of it. Even though this number only says 2%, once you crunch that math, this is a pretty decent deal. And you can get higher than 2%. Usually not as a first time developer, but I've seen deals anywhere from like 2% to 12% on the super high end. Like you've got to be, you've got to be a rock star. Because at 12%, now you're at like 50%, right?

• 2:21:57Speaker 02

  And that's tough to get to. Like you've got to really pull your weight to get numbers like that. So, so those are what the deals look like. And then after that. Then the whole relationship moves into this like, okay, now what the hell are we actually making? Right? Like, what is the quality of the cards? What are the components in the box? Are you allowed to change rules?

• 2:22:17Tim Ferriss?

  Is the deal structure similar to a book publishing contract in the sense that the game developer would get an advance against sales?

• 2:22:25Speaker 02

  Or is that? Sometimes.

• 2:22:26Tim Ferriss?

  Sometimes.

• 2:22:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, you can negotiate that. I've seen publishers do that or not do that. I will just say for Exploding Kittens, we never do advances.

• 2:22:34Tim Ferriss?

  It's fundamentally different also from, say, nonfiction book publishing in the following sense. If you're taking a, let's call it conventional publishing approach, which is very similar to selling the game.

• 2:22:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:22:47Tim Ferriss?

  Right? It's like you have an agent.

• 2:22:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:22:49Tim Ferriss?

  You've got the editors, let's just say, and the publishers who are the buyers of sorts. The editor might be the category buyer.

• 2:22:57Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:22:57Tim Ferriss?

  Right? But they have to get the okay from the publisher for signing off on deals.

• 2:23:00Speaker 02

  Exactly. Yep.

• 2:23:01Tim Ferriss?

  And you'll have your royalty rate, which varies widely, but let's just say somewhere, depending on paperback versus hardcover, up to probably a maximum in conventional deals of 12 to 15%.

• 2:23:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:23:17Tim Ferriss?

  Of cover.

• 2:23:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:23:18Tim Ferriss?

  Right? Which is also, again, of cover.

• 2:23:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:23:20Tim Ferriss?

  And then there's the advance. The critical difference that I was alluding to is typically when a nonfiction book is sold, you are selling a book proposal, which is a writing sample and a marketing plan.

• 2:23:35Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 2:23:36Tim Ferriss?

  And if and only if a publisher decides to sign a contract and buy the book.

• 2:23:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:23:44Tim Ferriss?

  Do you get an advance to buy you the time so you can stop doing all of these other things?

• 2:23:49Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:23:50Tim Ferriss?

  To write the full book. Whereas with the game, like, you gotta, the game's gotta be ready.

• 2:23:54Speaker 02

  It's done. Yeah. Now, let's call it like 90% done, to be fair, right? And usually when we take on games, we change them significantly, just because there's always a better version. And through testing, we discover it. The reason we don't do advances partially is exactly what you're saying. You're already done, right? We're not trying to pull you off of other projects.

• 2:24:12Tim Ferriss?

  You don't have to stop your nine to five.

• 2:24:13Speaker 02

  Exactly. Exactly. But the other reason is because I want a partnership. I'm not here to say, you sold us this game, now we're never gonna talk again. I want you here every day. I want skin in the game. We're gonna all make this better together, which is why we do so few partnerships.

• 2:24:30Tim Ferriss?

  Now, when you... Do partnerships, meaning you're the publisher, you're paying someone a royalty. How do you typically find those? So for instance, and I imagine a lot of it is you guys canvassing and basically asking the question that you recommended people ask the store owners.

• 2:24:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:24:50Tim Ferriss?

  Which game do you wish people played more often? And then you find something that has the bones of a really good game.

• 2:24:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:24:58Tim Ferriss?

  But a piece of it is shitting the bed.

• 2:25:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:25:01Tim Ferriss?

  There's something that is broken and you're like, oh, we could fix that broken thing. Or do you take cold submissions? How does that work?

• 2:25:08Speaker 02

  We have a submission form on our website. We almost never find anything there. It's hard. It's time consuming to go through all of them. And honestly, it's just not the highest quality. We also go to conventions. We look a little bit around there. Sometimes we find a diamond in the rough.

• 2:25:22Tim Ferriss?

  Crowded fishing hole, right?

• 2:25:24Speaker 02

  Very crowded. The most effective way are those agents. We talk to those two agents and we say, hey, people approach you all the time wanting you to be their agent and you have to turn a lot of them down. The ones that you feel terrible about because they're such a good game and they just can't get in the door, send them to us.

• 2:25:40Tim Ferriss?

  Uh huh.

• 2:25:41Speaker 02

  And that works really well.

• 2:25:42Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, smart. That's super smart. Aside from a crowdfunding campaign, what would actually cut through in a submission? Are there any ingredients outside of here are a bunch of compelling data from a crowdfunding campaign?

• 2:25:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:25:57Tim Ferriss?

  Or hey, I've designed a hundred hit games.

• 2:25:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:26:00Tim Ferriss?

  Aside from those two.

• 2:26:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, right.

• 2:26:01Tim Ferriss?

  What other types of lines or elements would cut through the noise?

• 2:26:07Speaker 02

  Remember I said that phrase? The way we design games is we don't make games that are entertaining. We make games that make the players entertaining.

• 2:26:13Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm.

• 2:26:14Speaker 02

  90% of the game pitches I see are attempts to be entertaining games.

• 2:26:18Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm.

• 2:26:19Speaker 02

  And I just immediately dismiss them. That looks like that game is working so hard to entertain the players. I don't care. The best games, the ones that I pay very careful attention to are when everything you do in the game creates an interaction between two players. I'm not interested in a four-player game where all four players are playing solitaire. Like, it's just, who cares?

• 2:26:42Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:42Speaker 02

  I'm interested in a game where the players are playing the players. And I play a card-

• 2:26:47Tim Ferriss?

  We tweaked a lot in Coyote based on that-

• 2:26:49Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 2:26:50Tim Ferriss?

  Guiding principle.

• 2:26:51Speaker 02

  Those are the best games. Those are the ones I love the most. Those are the ones I want to play over and over again.

• 2:26:55Tim Ferriss?

  And it could be as simple as you might, I'm saying you, the listener or viewer, might remember holding your cards facing you-

• 2:27:02Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:27:03Tim Ferriss?

  Versus having the cards-

• 2:27:05Speaker 02

  Night and day difference.

• 2:27:06Tim Ferriss?

  Available to the entire table.

• 2:27:08Speaker 02

  That's right, because now we're playing all together. And the card I choose, if I have a blind hand, if I have a deck of cards and I choose a card and then I play it, that is me presenting a game to the players. If I have all my available cards face up on the table and everyone can see what I choose and everyone's hoping I picked that first card, but I hover my hand over it and then I move to the second card instead and everyone starts groaning and then I play that second card anyway, now it's me playing the players. And those are the best games in the world.

• 2:27:39Tim Ferriss?

  What are some common Achilles heels for games that have the potential to be great and huge successes? And I'm not going to mention names, but we've talked about a couple of games that you've considered buying or publishing. And I'm wondering what are some of the common weaknesses where you're like, this is a great game, but the reason it didn't work is X or Y or Z?

• 2:28:11Speaker 02

  So there's two basic places the games fall apart. One is right off the bat, their boxes suck or the name sucks. The number of games out there called the legendary folklore of Gorgonzola, right? Like, I can't remember them. I don't know what they are. I-

• 2:28:32Tim Ferriss?

  You gotta throw a cock punch in there and then it's problem solved.

• 2:28:40Speaker 02

  Cock punch aside, I would argue that those games, they have no chance of success. Yes, they're going to sell 10 copies to the 10 people that bought the legendary Tales of Gorgonzola, volumes one through six, and they're gonna buy volume seven. Cool, great, I don't care. Picking the wrong name, picking a nondescriptive name, putting a picture on the box that does not describe gameplay at all, and does not provide a compelling narrative about what experience you are about to have, those games have zero chance of success. And I see that over and over and over again. So you can fail right up front. And I've even seen the biggest publishers in the world mess this up. Especially now, the game shelves are so crowded, and you don't have five games to choose from,

• 2:29:25Speaker 02

  you have 500 games to choose from. And a game that doesn't do a good job of saying, "Pick me, pick me, pick me," you're just not gonna pick. So you will fail right there.

• 2:29:33Tim Ferriss?

  Or really complicated packaging, too. I've seen that a bunch, where there's just so much going on, there's no one dominant element. It's like, what am I supposed to look at here?

• 2:29:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, what do you look at first?

• 2:29:43Tim Ferriss?

  So you can't.

• 2:29:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:29:44Tim Ferriss?

  You don't look at anything. You look at the next box.

• 2:29:45Speaker 02

  It's just noise. Yeah, just noise. So we worked very hard on Coyote on all our games, but I remember having this discussion about Coyote, because this is such an important lesson. When you look at this box, we know the first thing you're gonna look at, and we know the second thing you're gonna look at, and we know the third thing you're gonna look at. And this is a formula, and we crafted this.

• 2:30:08Tim Ferriss?

  It's a formula.

• 2:30:09Speaker 02

  Very carefully.

• 2:30:10Tim Ferriss?

  By the way, also, exactly what works in old-school print advertising.

• 2:30:15Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:30:16Tim Ferriss?

  Right?

• 2:30:17Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:30:17Tim Ferriss?

  Header image, headline, subheading.

• 2:30:20Speaker 02

  Exactly right.

• 2:30:21Tim Ferriss?

  Text.

• 2:30:22Speaker 02

  And those components are all present here.

• 2:30:23Tim Ferriss?

  And if you fuck up the order, pardon my French.

• 2:30:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:30:27Tim Ferriss?

  The "I" doesn't know how to track, or it bounces around.

• 2:30:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. And if there's other, better options right next door, off you go. So.

• 2:30:36Speaker 02

  We hit those three things on a box meticulously. And your reaction should not be, I'm gonna buy that game. That's not our goal. Your reaction is, I'm gonna pick up this game and I'm gonna turn it over. And I'm gonna read the back of the box. And now we've got a very different task. Now we have more real estate. We still know the first thing you're gonna look at. Now we care a little bit less about the second thing. As long as you've already got enough interest, or you've already committed to picking this thing up. You're willing to read a little story. As long as you can see the end of that story and you know it's not too long. You're gonna read a little story. The goal of this is now purchase. I want you to get to the end of this experience and say, I gotta have it. I want this.

• 2:31:19Tim Ferriss?

  And just for people who can't see this particular visual. And there's all sorts of stuff on the back of the card, which we won't get into. But some people might notice interesting things on the back of the cards. The dominant element on the back of the box is how to play. And man, we worked on this a lot too. With basically three panes. Step one, step two, step three. Put cards on the table, then take turns performing them. That's step one. And you got a little visual with the salamander action cards. Then next part is play cards to help or sabotage other players. Shows two examples.

• 2:31:53Speaker 02

  Sabotage was a very carefully chosen word, by the way.

• 2:31:56Tim Ferriss?

  Very carefully chosen. And then the last one is mess up and you're out. The last player standing wins. That's for competitive mode. Now, one aspect of this that I think is very clever is not sure if you should buy this game? Question mark. Give us a few seconds to convince you. And then there's a QR code.

• 2:32:12Speaker 02

  Nobody does that.

• 2:32:12Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:32:13Speaker 02

  This is new.

• 2:32:14Tim Ferriss?

  I know.

• 2:32:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:32:15Tim Ferriss?

  So what's the impetus behind this?

• 2:32:17Speaker 02

  So this was an idea I had that we're demoing on this game. First time ever. My idea was if I went to the store with you, I could convince you to buy my favorite game.

• 2:32:29Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:32:29Speaker 02

  Because I'm gonna pitch the hell out of that game. But I'm not in the store with you. So that's a problem. So my first idea was for every retail location in the world, will they let us install a telephone? That you can pick up and talk to somebody? And they said no. My second idea was, can I hire a person to stand in every store and convince you to buy the game I want you to buy? And they said, sorta, but you have to pay for all of that. And I was like, oh, that's not gonna work. And so this was option three.

• 2:32:59Tim Ferriss?

  A lot of people, 6,000 plus people.

• 2:33:02Speaker 02

  This is, I know, right? Can you imagine? So this is just a little QR code. And the idea is, I can't stand next to you for every store. But I can tell you what I would have said had I been standing there. And so you scan this code, and it's just a 15 second video. In this case, it's me, Tim, saying, listen, you're holding a game in your hands. It's the greatest thing you'll ever see. Let me try to convince you. And it's just a pitch. It's just, if I were standing next to you in the store, here's why you should buy this game. And I don't think a lot of people are gonna scan that code, to be fair. But for those who do, they're gonna have the experience of a friend telling them, you should trust me. This is gonna be great. Trust me.

• 2:33:43Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, and it doesn't take up that much real estate, either. It's an easy addition to the box. So, once again, test it.

• 2:33:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's it. What's the worst that can happen?

• 2:33:52Tim Ferriss?

  See what happens. And I also want to revisit something you mentioned earlier, which is that royalty rate.

• 2:33:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:34:00Tim Ferriss?

  Whether it's 2%, up to 12% in the book world. Let me take the book world and the publishing world in the book publishing sense is changing a lot, but it's also quite consistent over time. Different things have changed. Sure, audio as a format has grown tremendously and become highly prized now versus 10 years ago.

• 2:34:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:34:25Tim Ferriss?

  When I could carve out those rights, it's a lot harder to do now if you're gonna do the conventional route. But some folks will look at the percentages and they'll say, well, wait a second. Max 15% after an escalator. I'm starting off 12% for hardcover. That's ridiculous, right? I wrote the whole thing. Da, da, da, da, da. I wanna make the lion's share.

• 2:34:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:34:44Tim Ferriss?

  There are some instances where you can make that work. But I will say just a few things. When you begin, for most people, unless you are excellent at running a meticulously managed business.

• 2:35:02Tim Ferriss?

  It's actually pretty tough to beat those numbers in part because you're going to be sacrificing distribution. So the top of the funnel number is going to be different. Secondly, when you factor in paying various agents, various distributors,

• 2:35:20Tim Ferriss?

  and all of these little costs that for you without any scale of having a thousand SKUs in a department dedicated to it,

• 2:35:28Tim Ferriss?

  you start to very quickly approach that number.

• 2:35:31Speaker 02

  Very quickly.

• 2:35:32Tim Ferriss?

  And by the way, you're running a real business.

• 2:35:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:35:35Tim Ferriss?

  Right. This is not the easiest thing in the world to do at all. And I will probably do some experiments on that side of the equation in terms of self-publishing, which I would put in quotation marks because it's going to be like augmented

• 2:35:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:35:49Tim Ferriss?

  pseudo self-publishing on a few levels. I would only have the confidence of doing that myself currently because I've gone through the conventional route multiple times. And I've also run quite a few businesses.

• 2:36:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:36:02Tim Ferriss?

  But if you've never, what Stephen Key, I mentioned earlier, one simple idea for licensing, what he might call venturing, running a business.

• 2:36:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:36:10Tim Ferriss?

  Do not underestimate the value of your time and sanity also, right? Because what Stephen would do, he's like, hey, look, I'll take the licensing deal. Maybe he'll negotiate the number up a little bit.

• 2:36:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:36:23Tim Ferriss?

  But he's like, I can do 12 of those a year.

• 2:36:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. That's right.

• 2:36:28Tim Ferriss?

  Right?

• 2:36:28Speaker 02

  That's exactly.

• 2:36:29Tim Ferriss?

  And it adds up to a lot. And no employees.

• 2:36:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 2:36:32Tim Ferriss?

  No supply chain issues.

• 2:36:35Speaker 02

  No risk.

• 2:36:35Tim Ferriss?

  No, oops, that was printed the wrong way.

• 2:36:38Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:36:39Tim Ferriss?

  And now I have thousands of books.

• 2:36:41Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 2:36:42Tim Ferriss?

  That are sitting in my garage unsold, gathering dust and mold.

• 2:36:46Speaker 02

  Let me tell you the simplest example of the difference between doing it yourself and getting help valuing your time. Our very first game, Exploding Kittens, I needed to put a barcode on the box, right? Because it has to sell in retail. So I go, I'm like, I'm in a research. This can't be too hard. So I do the research and I find this website and it's like, you know, you gotta pay some little subscribe, a hundred bucks a year, whatever it is. And you can generate unlimited barcodes. Amazing. So I generate a barcode, I put it on the box. That wasn't so hard. Then Target's like, well, this is the wrong format. Like, okay, I spend another hundred bucks, I get a different format, but I don't know. I'm like, we need a different barcode based on the palette that it's in. And then I talked to Walmart and they're like, yeah, we use a different barcode format.

• 2:37:29Speaker 02

  And we need this barcode to represent whether it was picked up in China or Mexico or Poland. So you actually need three different ones. Oh, and by the way, if it's bundled with other games, we need a fourth one. And by the way, if it ships into Arkansas, we need a fifth. And I was just like, help, like, oh my God, help. And that's the difference. Like, you should not get good at this. Why would you want to get good at that?

• 2:37:50Tim Ferriss?

  You know, it's funny is I was actually going to bring up the example of what are the UPC codes and ISBN?

• 2:37:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:37:57Tim Ferriss?

  And all this stuff.

• 2:37:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:37:58Tim Ferriss?

  Because I also went down that road. I'm like, how hard could it be?

• 2:38:01Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:38:01Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, this is easy.

• 2:38:02Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:38:02Tim Ferriss?

  And lo and behold, actually, it's a lot of brain damage.

• 2:38:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:38:05Tim Ferriss?

  I'm not saying that no one should venture in the sense of self-funding or self-publishing, but it is a lot harder and much more consuming than most people realize.

• 2:38:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. And there's no reason, unless you want to do it for a living, there's no reason to get good at it.

• 2:38:24Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:38:25Speaker 02

  Like, there's no upside there.

• 2:38:26Tim Ferriss?

  And do it for a living, meaning handle those types of details.

• 2:38:29Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 2:38:30Tim Ferriss?

  Okay.

• 2:38:30Speaker 02

  Anyway, we have a barcode person who does it for a living. She's quite good. I'm so happy she's on my team.

• 2:38:37Tim Ferriss?

  All right. So on the side of selling games, what else have we not touched on? Any other aspects?

• 2:38:45Speaker 02

  Another thing I learned along the way is there's two kinds of selling. One is everything we've been talking about today. Your expectation is I have sold you a game. The game is now your responsibility and we've negotiated a price. You, the retailer, own this game now and you're going to sell it. The second kind is the kind that we actually engage in, which is you do own this game, but there are restrictions on how you can sell it.

• 2:39:13Tim Ferriss?

  Can you explain that again? So when you say you own this game, you mean a retailer?

• 2:39:17Speaker 02

  You, the retailer, have purchased this palette of games.

• 2:39:20Tim Ferriss?

  I get it. All right, sorry. I was just clarifying because people might've heard that as you own like the IP of the game.

• 2:39:25Speaker 02

  Sorry, sorry, sorry. Yes.

• 2:39:26Tim Ferriss?

  So you are buying an inventory of this game.

• 2:39:29Speaker 02

  Correct. Now, what if the game doesn't sell very well?

• 2:39:35Speaker 02

  Whose problem is that? Yeah. Well, if you didn't think that through and it's just a straight sale, they can put it in a bargain bin or they can sell it to somebody else who's then gonna sell it. Or if you really didn't negotiate it, they can force you to buy it back from them. The restrictions on what happens to the game, what they're allowed to do post-sale is so meticulous. And these contracts get so long. And this is another thing, you don't want to get good at this. You just need to hire someone who has seen every imaginable mistake and knows what to argue for. And oftentimes, the retailers don't care that much about this part, especially because they have a lot of faith. This thing's gonna do well, right?

• 2:40:16Speaker 02

  But when it goes poorly, if it goes poorly, and we've had a few examples of this, what do you do next? In the case of something as simple as like Amazon, Amazon has a terrible policy for returns. Namely, they will accept all returns and it is the vendor's responsibility, my responsibility. So you buy Exploding Kittens from game night, you play the game, you damage all the cards because you spilled beer all over them. You put them back in the box the next day after you had a great time and you return it and now that's my cost. Right? And that happens hundreds of times a week. It sucks. There's also this thing where people will buy counterfeit games and they'll buy then the real version. So they'll buy counterfeit for a dollar, they'll buy the real version on Amazon, they'll keep the real version, they'll return the counterfeit. And now that's mine as well.

• 2:41:02Speaker 02

  And I just spent $20 on that stupid counterfeit version because that's coming back to me. Right? So all of this stuff has to be thought through in advance. And it's tricky because some retailers, the Targets and the Walmarts in the world, they are so willing to work with you on that stuff. Amazon, not so much. They're just like, oh, you don't like our policy? All right, well, maybe, maybe a different platform is for you.

• 2:41:28Speaker 02

  So it's hard. It's really hard.

• 2:41:30Tim Ferriss?

  And I should say that I've run into when I've talked about termination clauses, or what do we do when everyone's pissed off and things aren't working? Because really, that's the only time that you're going to go back and look at the agreement. Which is why Gary Keller, famous for his real estate empire, said, "You should really call them disagreements." The only time you're going to look at them is when things are really going sideways.

• 2:41:51Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:41:52Tim Ferriss?

  And there are some people I've spoken to about the importance of these things. Like, wow, that's really pessimistic. I'm like, no, no, no. Let's understand the consequences of not going through this. I know so many examples of entrepreneurs who actually had a chance at a runaway success.

• 2:42:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:42:11Tim Ferriss?

  And they did not pay attention to these terms for, say, a QVC or a huge retailer. And this could happen with Kickstarter as well, of course. They get overextended because now they have orders for god knows how much inventory that is well beyond their capacity, their experience, their financial means. And in their mind, let's take out the Kickstarter or crowdfunding. But they don't think about the return policy.

• 2:42:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:42:40Tim Ferriss?

  And they get the hug of death, right? They overextend themselves financially to produce the inventory. They ship it and then any number of things can happen. It might be like net 270 payment terms.

• 2:42:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, God.

• 2:42:52Tim Ferriss?

  Could be just like cash flow suicide right on the front end. And on top of that, you might get all of it shipped back to you.

• 2:42:59Speaker 02

  All of it.

• 2:42:59Tim Ferriss?

  And it's your problem. And then that is-

• 2:43:00Speaker 02

  It's so tragic.

• 2:43:01Tim Ferriss?

  That's the hug of death and you're done.

• 2:43:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. You've seen this. I mean, you've seen this picture. You have this friend whose apartment is filled with products.

• 2:43:08Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:43:08Speaker 02

  And it's taking over their living space and they have no way to move it.

• 2:43:11Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, I did that myself early on, like one of my very, I made an audiobook product. I was going to sell millions of this thing. Oh, my God, didn't do any market testing, none of that stuff. Just high on my own supply, right? And I had an entire garage full of these things. It just melted in the heat ultimately. And at the time, though, that was a huge financial risk. I mean, I didn't take so much risk that it torpedoed me. But if I had had that level of self-delusion and lack of experimentation a little later on, it very easily could have been a recipe for disaster.

• 2:43:48Speaker 02

  There's so many ways to mess this up. There's so many ways to mess this up. The only good news is- There is someone out there who has messed it up in every possible way.

• 2:43:56Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, or represented people who have messed it up in every possible way.

• 2:44:00Speaker 02

  And those are the people you have to work with. You have to, and if you don't, the risk you're taking on is just massive. And luckily, I had some very good advice early on from people who said, don't take this on yourself. Don't do this. And it's the best advice I ever got.

• 2:44:19Tim Ferriss?

  And I think maybe, tell me if this is overreaching on my part, but don't take this on yourself now. In the sense that after you've had 10 mega successes?

• 2:44:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:44:32Tim Ferriss?

  And you actually are fluent in retail ease?

• 2:44:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:44:36Tim Ferriss?

  And you have the relationships?

• 2:44:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:44:37Tim Ferriss?

  All right, now you can take some calculated risks.

• 2:44:39Speaker 02

  And now you can hire the people that you would otherwise contract. Now you can pull them in-house.

• 2:44:45Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:44:46Speaker 02

  Because now you can afford their salaries. Now you want them to only be working on your own products. Great, that's a huge mark of success. And really, that is exactly the way you reinvest in your own company.

• 2:44:57Tim Ferriss?

  Mm hmm. And to reiterate just a few things. If you want to develop a game, number one, you can just develop for your family, your friends, and keep it small. And I will just say, in the book world, a lot of later mega successes have started out that way. So you don't have to go for scale, which I think can be a very dangerous word out of the gate. But as you mentioned, you can also, with the blank cards in Coyote, you can get a taste of it. See if you like it. Then you can use the books that you recommended. And there are certainly other resources, we'll put things in the show notes, to play around with prototyping. I mean, look at these initial cards. These are blank cards with sherpy writing on them.

• 2:45:40Speaker 02

  That's it, that's literally it.

• 2:45:41Tim Ferriss?

  That's the entire thing. And you can also find kits online. You can find them anywhere you want. Amazon has gaming kits where there are blank dice and cards and so on. So you can workshop it.

• 2:45:55Speaker 02

  So easy.

• 2:45:56Tim Ferriss?

  It's like Build a Bear for Games, basically.

• 2:45:57Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 2:45:58Tim Ferriss?

  And

• 2:46:00Tim Ferriss?

  What I would add to that is you don't need to run a big business to be a successful game designer.

• 2:46:06Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 2:46:07Tim Ferriss?

  In fact, I would imagine most of the legendary game designers are not running companies. They're designing games and licensing them. And man, there are some legends out there.

• 2:46:20Speaker 02

  They've created incredible games and they've generated gigantic wealth for themselves. Right? Because in success, that 2% deal, that 5% deal, whatever it is, that faucet doesn't turn off. That's in perpetuity. So yeah. In summary, I don't think the games business is going anywhere.

• 2:46:40Tim Ferriss?

  And also, there is a lot of room to innovate. There still is room. I mean, there's so many games, but I wouldn't have even attempted to create a game had I not thought there was space.

• 2:46:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. The thing is, it's like saying, is there still space in the book industry, in the movie industry? All a game is, is an idea delivered in a new way. Right? So when are we going to run out of ideas? When are we going to run out of delivery mechanisms? The answer to both of those individually is never. Combine them both together and like, it's just, build games forever. You'll always have a new way to deliver it.

• 2:47:22Tim Ferriss?

  All right. So I'm trying to think of anything that we missed. I do have a tantalizing offer for listeners and viewers, just for fun, because why not? And we will have also mentioned that in the intro. But before I get to that, anything critical that we've forgotten? Is there anything that we have left out or any other resources, people to watch? Maybe people to...

• 2:47:52Tim Ferriss?

  Google and Wikipedia, maybe anything at all.

• 2:47:54Speaker 02

  All right. I got two. I got two that are interesting. One is, there is a podcast I quite like for game design. It's called Fun Problems. It's with Peter and AJ. All they do is they talk about game design. Now, they do talk about more hardcore games than I am accustomed to. Like, it's a wide range of topics, but it's fun stuff. It's worth listening to if you want to know more about game design. And the second thing is because of you. Because of you, because of this process, this journey that we've been on over the last few years, I realized that I don't document any of this, ever. I never talk about what goes into a game design. I never talk about where to buy blank cards, and I never talk about like, why anybody can do this and what the process is like.

• 2:48:36Speaker 02

  So I've started recording it, and I've started, for the first time, I can't believe I'm saying this, I actually started a YouTube channel. And you can actually go and watch these instructional videos. Literally, if you want to make a game, the whole idea is, here is how to make a game from scratch. Nobody's watching right now, but.

• 2:48:56Tim Ferriss?

  Youtube.com/ElanLee. That's E-L-A-N-L-E-E. You can also just search him on YouTube. The first result will be our podcast together.

• 2:49:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

• 2:49:07Tim Ferriss?

  Episode one.

• 2:49:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:49:08Tim Ferriss?

  And then, within the first few results, you'll also find it. But I'm pretty sure the URL is youtube.com/ElanLee. And let's finish up with a few things. The first will be the tantalizing offer that I mentioned. So the tantalizing offer is this, there's no purchase required whatsoever. So if any sweet steaks sharks are out there, take it easy, take it easy. So this is gonna be just a fun little, it's not even a competition, just a fun little experiment that I want to run.

• 2:49:49Tim Ferriss?

  Hi everyone, Tim here with an update as details have changed since that first conversation with Alon. Here's the tantalizing offer that I wanted to share with you. You have two very easy ways to enter for a chance to win a trip to a secret Los Angeles mansion for an unforgettable day or evening with me and Alon and maybe some special guests. Here's how. Option number one, simply visit any Target or Walmart and take a fun photo or video with a Coyote game. No purchase necessary. Option number two, if you already bought Coyote, record yourself playing the game with friends or family. That's it. I would love to see it. Then, share your photo or video on Instagram or TikTok or both and tag me and Exploding Kittens. You can find us easily, but I'm

• 2:50:32Tim Ferriss?

  at Tim Ferriss on both. That's at Tim F E R R I S S and Exploding Kittens is Exploding Kittens, at Exploding Kittens on TikTok and at Game of Kittens on Instagram. So, share your photo and/or video on Instagram and/or TikTok. Put them everywhere, why not? And tag both me and Exploding Kittens. Longtime listeners know that I have a love of deadlines. This is how things actually get done. So, the deadline to post is August 17. That means that 10:00 PM PST, August 17. By then, you need to have posted and done all this stuff. By August 31, we'll randomly select five winners from people who post. Each winner will receive round trip airfare within the US, one night at a hotel, and

• 2:51:15Tim Ferriss?

  will join us at our secret LA mansion party. And I think the legal elves wanted me to mention that that's going to be coach airfare. So, just to be super clear. Important legal disclaimer, no purchase necessary. Open to US residents aged 18 or older. So, no little kids, no minotaurs allowed. Void where prohibited. Winners selected at random. Odds depend on number of eligible entries. Travel dates must align. With the event likely in September, we are still finalizing the time with the busiest man in show business, Alon Lee himself. For official rules, eligibility details, and final date, please visit tim.blog/rules. So, go ahead, post a creative TikTok or Insta reel or a photo with Coyote by August 17, 10:00 PST. Tag us and you might just be celebrating with us in Hollywood this

• 2:51:59Tim Ferriss?

  fall. Now, back to the episode.

• 2:52:05Tim Ferriss?

  And what else? Anything else to add? I have a little bit, I have one more thing I want to say.

• 2:52:09Speaker 02

  Oh, okay. I want to hear one more thing.

• 2:52:11Tim Ferriss?

  I just wanted to thank you so much for allowing me to be part of this incredible ride.

• 2:52:16Speaker 02

  Oh, my goodness.

• 2:52:17Tim Ferriss?

  And just collaborating on the game. It's been so meaningful for me and so much fun and so great to get closer with you and your family. And we've all been traveling together since.

• 2:52:27Speaker 02

  I love it.

• 2:52:27Tim Ferriss?

  And to work with the incredible team that you have, Exploding Kittens. I'm not going to mention the Moleks, there have been quite a few.

• 2:52:32Speaker 02

  There's so many, yeah.

• 2:52:33Tim Ferriss?

  But it's just been such a joy and a dream come true to actually have this thing in my mind that was floating around that I've always wanted to do. And now here it is. And people can get it.

• 2:52:44Speaker 02

  Tim Ferriss made a game.

• 2:52:46Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:52:47Speaker 02

  Yo, look, here's the thing. You're so welcome. And thank you. Like, we have limited time here and you have to choose your endeavors wisely. And this was one of the wisest choices I've ever made.

• 2:52:58Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, thanks, man.

• 2:52:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:53:00Tim Ferriss?

  All right. We're gonna go get fantastic meal. It's Texas, so probably a bunch of meat, barbecue. Who knows? Maybe some tequila, make an appearance. Unbidden, you know? You know, strange things happen out here in Austin, Texas. And for everybody listening, we will link to all sorts of things, many resources that will help you think about how you might create a game. You can start with the blank cards in Coyote. Those will actually teach you a lot, I think, as you begin to experiment with these different elements.

• 2:53:32Speaker 02

  Because you're gonna fail. Because your first few are not gonna work.

• 2:53:34Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:53:34Speaker 02

  And you'll learn why. Yeah.

• 2:53:36Tim Ferriss?

  And then if you run out of blank cards, look, just go get some blank cards. Just go buy a blank deck and you can use those. But this is something anyone can do.

• 2:53:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:53:45Tim Ferriss?

  Right? You did this with your daughter when she was how old?

• 2:53:48Speaker 02

  Four.

• 2:53:48Tim Ferriss?

  Four.

• 2:53:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:53:49Tim Ferriss?

  Right? This is an incredibly fun family activity. It's an incredibly fun friend activity. And it gets you off of your screens. It's not good for you, folks.

• 2:54:01Speaker 02

  So important.

• 2:54:01Tim Ferriss?

  They are tools, but there is a point at which... The tools become our masters and that is where a lot of the poison seeps in around the cracks.

• 2:54:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:54:10Tim Ferriss?

  And

• 2:54:11Speaker 02

  This thing builds memories.

• 2:54:13Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:54:13Speaker 02

  That's what you should be doing. That's what your phone isn't doing. This is building memories.

• 2:54:17Tim Ferriss?

  Building memories with some durability, not ephemeral. They get pushed out of your head as soon as you watch the next 10 second clip. So this is something I've wanted to do for so long and I'm thrilled that it's here. Fingers crossed. I'm still nervous as hell, obviously, but we've done so much playtesting. I mean,

• 2:54:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:54:35Tim Ferriss?

  hundreds of people have playtested

• 2:54:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:54:37Tim Ferriss?

  at this point.

• 2:54:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:54:38Tim Ferriss?

  And have made these fine tuning tweaks along the way. So I would love everybody to think about your life as a collection of games. You may not be aware of which games you're playing just yet, but rest assured, in some respects, you are playing games and you get to choose more games than you realize. Most of them are optional. Not all of them. Sure. We have responsibilities as adults and so on, but this is a way to open up that Pandora's box of possibility and we'll include a lot of resources in the show notes.

• 2:55:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:55:14Tim Ferriss?

  So tim.blog/podcast, just search coyote. That'll probably be the easiest way to find it. C O Y O T E. And another time I'll explain backstory there, which is pretty wild, but for another time. And until next time, as always, be a little kinder than is necessary, not just to others, also to yourself. Play wisely. Find fun problems. And I am going to check out that podcast and life is short. Have fun while you're here, folks. And until next time, thanks for tuning in.

• 2:55:50Tim Ferriss?

  Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday. Share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests.

• 2:56:32Tim Ferriss?

  And these strange esoteric things end up in my field and then I test them and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to tim.blog/friday, type that into your browser, tim.blog/friday, drop in your email and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening.

• 2:56:59Tim Ferriss?

  Not to be a salty old dog, but then again, that's what I am. But in the early 2000s, back in the day when I was running my own e-commerce business, the tools were atrocious. They tried hard, but man, was it bad. You had to cobble all sorts of stuff together, huge pain in the ass. I could only dream of a platform like Shopify, which is this episode's sponsor. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world. Believe it or not, I got to know them when they had eight or nine employees. And now 10% of all e-commerce in the US is on Shopify. From household names like Mattel and Jimm Shark to my very own limited edition Cock Punch Coffee. Remember that? Story for another time. Now, back to the early 2000s, then nobody even thought of AI.

• 2:57:44Tim Ferriss?

  Who could have predicted even in the last 24 months, the magic that is now possible with AI? Shopify has been ahead of the curve and they are packed with helpful AI tools that will accelerate everything, write product descriptions, page headlines, even enhance your product photography. You can get started with your own design studio with hundreds of ready to use templates to match your brand's style and create email and social media campaigns to get the word out wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. Best of all, Shopify expertly handles everything from managing inventory to international shipping, to processing returns and beyond. It's all under one of. And man, oh, man, could I have used that back in the day?

• 2:58:28Tim Ferriss?

  And if I ever do something like that again in e-commerce, I will use Shopify. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at Shopify.com/Tim. Why not learn a little bit more? Shopify.com/Tim, one more time. Shopify.com/Tim. If I were to update the four hour work week, which I get asked to do a lot, I would really only add one thing, and that is a section on AI tools. Because for everything I described with virtual assistants and with so much more, you can do with technology immediately. And that can be automated, delegated. There's so much that you can do. And this is also why I recommend this episode's sponsor, Gamma,

• 2:59:12Tim Ferriss?

  for creating incredible professional slide decks better, cheaper, and faster than you ever thought possible. It's pretty head spinning. I polled all of you on social, 10 million plus people about Gamma, and some of you called it a game changer, mind blowing, and far and away the best product in the category. Those are all your quotes. With Gamma, you can just drop in an idea, an outline, a document, a PowerPoint, and Gamma will turn it into a stunning, ready to share presentation in seconds. And if you want to turn that into a website or whatever else, again, snap of the fingers and it's done. With more than 50 million users, it's already the most popular AI presentation platform in the world. So stop wasting time dragging stuff around, fidgeting with bullet points, and let Gamma turn your content into high quality presentations

• 2:59:57Tim Ferriss?

  so you can spend your time on other things that matter. Explore Gamma today at gamma.app. That's G-A-M-M-A dot A-P-P. Gamma.app. Listeners get 30% off any plan by using promo code TIM at checkout. So use promo code TIM, T-I-M, at gamma.app.