Saagar Enjeti: Elon’s America Party, Iran, and Jeffrey Epstein Is Apparently Innocent Now

Why is Pam Bondi’s Justice Department covering up Jeffrey Epstein’s crimes and murder? Saagar Enjeti has a theory. (00:00) Apparently Jeffrey Epstein Is Innocent Now? (09:20) The Suspicious Life of Robert Maxwell (11:30) How the Kennedy Assassination Broke America (25:18) The Real Reason Pam Bondi Won’t Release the Files (36:25) Why Doesn’t American Foreign Policy Reflect American Interests? (45:18 How Identity Politics Have Infected the Right (59:59) The Moment Saagar Realized How the Corporate Media Machine Truly Works Saagar Enjeti is the host of "Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar" available on YouTube and podcast platforms. Saagar previously worked at The Daily Caller as a White House correspondent. Paid partnerships with: Dutch: Get $50 a year for vet care with Tucker50 at https://dutch.com/tucker Beam: Get 40% off for a limited time using the code TUCKER at https://ShopBeam.com/Tucker Eight Sleep: Get $350 off the new Pod 5 Ultra at https://EightSleep.com/Tucker SimpliSafe: Visit https://simplisafe.com/TUCKER to claim 50% off & your first month free! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This podcast is supported by Anthropic, the public benefit corporation behind Claude. Everyone's got a hard question about AI. Anthropic was built to surface those questions and share what it finds along the way, because there's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai/spotify and keep thinking. That's claude.ai/spotify.

• 0:27Tucker Carlson?

  I'll speak for myself. I never thought that I would be offering an apology to Jeffrey Epstein. I think of all the times I've maligned that guy, all the times I've accused him of crimes, of blackmailing people, of trafficking children to powerful figures around the world on behalf of global intel services. And then I learned yesterday from Attorney General Pam Bondi, that's totally untrue.

• 0:48Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 0:49Tucker Carlson?

  The guy killed himself after 30 days, 36 days in prison for no reason. He was a billionaire. He had no clients. He'd done nothing wrong other than get naughty massages 20 years before. And the guy killed himself, another pointless death. And then his best friend, former girlfriend, Ghislaine Maxwell, doing 20 years in prison for no crime. There are no victims.

• 1:07Speaker 02

  Yes, it's a victimless crime. They're obviously persecuted by the state. They're political prisoners, really. The Hague should come in and do an investigation or we're watching one of the most systematic government cover-ups of all time.

• 1:42Speaker 02

  Something that you say that always resonates with me is, "I don't want to be lied to, and I specifically don't want to be lied to by the very people who built careers." And I'm talking here specifically about Cash Patel, Dan Bongino, and many others who now work for the administration, who fed MAGA and the American people and promised them to get to the bottom of this, only to turn their tune immediately upon assuming office, lying before Congress, talking about this is an obvious case of suicide, going on the Joe Rogan Podcasts and effectively asking for some level of trust that I wouldn't I don't give to any government official FBI Director Cash Patel said if I had this information don't you think I would release it no I don't because actually your actions now just in the last couple of days only vindicate the idea that this is not only a systematic

• 2:27Speaker 02

  government cover up at the highest levels not only involving sex trafficking but going all the way up to the top levels of the US intelligence the Israeli intelligence community implicating powerful people billionaires here in the United States former prime ministers of Israel the prime our current president former presidents of the United States and for them to come out on the very day or I guess the day before that the Israeli prime minister is visiting Washington For the third time in six months. The third time this year what why exactly you know can we can we go over that last time I checked this is a country do about 52 billion in bilateral trade with equivocal to like Singapore and Chile I don't remember the last time the Chilean or Singaporean leaders were in Washington for three times in the last six months and to who we give 3.3 billion

• 3:12Speaker 02

  to Switzerland these are all countries I love by the way I've visited all three that I just listed I love them would I you know would they serve And Israel I think you went did you go to school in Israel? That's right I did six weeks in Israel it's a great country I like it a lot but it's not about that this is about my country and so watching this all just get perverted and then used and hijacking our government is just particularly offensive to me not only just as an American but I feel particularly not only deceived by the people like the FBI Director and the Deputy Director Dan Bongino but the Attorney General who went on camera after assuming her office on the White House lawn these are supposed to mean things and said thousands of victims we have the client list we have the flight logs she held a little

• 3:57Speaker 02

  press conference whatever event with so-called influencers and which she gave them the Epstein files an infamous photo that was released it turned out that that binder actually had redacted information in it which was already public just to demonstrate how they were turning the South law they're turning the White House effectively into a performative show and making you know light of the fact that there are hundreds If not thousands of underage victims, and it's just not the victims, it's the fact that it extends to the highest levels of the elite, the transatlantic elite, and possibly even beyond that, from some of the richest men in our country, presidents of the United States, former prime ministers of Israel, we're talking here about Bill Gates, Leon

• 4:39Speaker 02

  Black, Leslie Wexner, the richest and most powerful people in the world, the Nobel Committee, the scientific, I mean, the community, Harvard, MIT, the tentacles through which this operation had its hands in and stretches all the way back to the 1980s. It is one of the most disgusting intelligence operations, I think, in United States intelligence history, rivaling some of the things, you know, eventually that led to the death of President Kennedy. And the thing is, is around this time, is just like Kennedy, we all know the truth. We know that this document released by the Trump administration is complete bullshit. And I guess that maybe, just like with the Kennedy assassination, they expect us to just get over it in a period of time. And I genuinely think it's incumbent on anybody who was either

• 5:24Speaker 02

  supportive of the president, any, any United States citizen to say, no, we demand like absolute and total transparency on this case, and particularly of these government officials. Do not use your platform to enrich yourself on these podcast platforms and constantly talk about Epstein and the Epstein files, eventually assume office, change on a dime, and expect us to trust you. That is not how this works. And in particular, in that document, I think it's one of the most disgusting documents ever released by the United States government, because it said there was no blackmail, there was no, we're not releasing this information. Cash Patel has this new line about how we're not going to revictimize women. Ask the Epstein victims themselves, they have been begging for this information to come to light, specifically

• 6:08Speaker 02

  to implicate the powerful men that victimized them and through which they were, you know, and they were basically used for trafficking purposes to ensnare them in this high-level US intelligence, Israeli intelligence operation, probably run in conjunction. And that, you know, the trail of this entire thing, just, it enrages me. It actually enrages me as an American.

• 6:31Tucker Carlson?

  I don't think you're alone. And I do think, as someone who voted for the president, campaigned for the president a lot, I'm not attacking the president, but I think even people who are fully on board with You know, the bulk of the MAGA agenda are like, this is, this is too much.

• 6:48Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 6:49Tucker Carlson?

  I'm saying that with love and I hope that they're listening. Because I think this threatens to blow up the whole thing. But, but let's just back up a little bit and just pick at some of the inconsistencies here. So you're saying that Pam Bondi said on camera, we have a client list.

• 7:04Speaker 02

  On the White House lawn.

• 7:05Tucker Carlson?

  I've seen the client list.

• 7:06Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 7:06Tucker Carlson?

  And then yesterday, she's saying there's no client list.

• 7:08Speaker 02

  There's no client list. And there was no systematic blackmail. That actually might be the most preposterous line in the document.

• 7:13Tucker Carlson?

  But it doesn't, I mean, it doesn't make any sense. So they've said that there were thousands of young people, in some cases minors, underage children, victimized, sexually victimized. Are they saying that Epstein, single-handedly had sex with all, because actually, for whatever it's worth, I don't think anyone, that I, I've never seen anyone make the claim that Epstein had sex with anybody.

• 7:35Speaker 02

  Yes, that's right. Well, a lot of these allegations revolve around like group activities. And they're around like masseuse and being, I mean, look, the way that Dershowitz and others would claim it is I kept my underwear on and it was all a, you know, very above the board massage information. There's that famous photo of Bill Clinton in the airport terminal with one of these young victim, who herself, she was a victim of the Epstein entire machine. So you're exactly right. It's like, for these thousands of women, were they victimized entirely by Ghislaine Maxwell and by Jeffrey Epstein? Because by the way, that's not even what the Ghislaine Maxwell, Jeffrey Epstein court documents and other things that we already knew that were in the public information. That's not what they say. That's not what the testimony of the victims of these people say. And so, again, even this client list thing, I do think people can go down the rabbit hole

• 8:20Speaker 02

  too much and think that there is, as you know, you know, there's no ledger, as in, had sex with so and so and we, in, you know, because of that, supported Israel. Like, that's not how it works.

• 8:31Tucker Carlson?

  So the term client list itself is misleading, you're saying?

• 8:33Speaker 02

  It's misleading, because really what we want isn't a full list of the victims of the people who flew on the flight logs, but the most important is the money. And I think a lot of people actually miss that in the Epstein story. Jeffrey Epstein came to power largely because he worked at Bear Stearns and effectively was like a high finance, money laundering expert. That's effectively what we can learn from his background. That's how he came involved with Leon Black. Leon Black is was one of the most powerful men in New York. And this is the head of the Apollo Group. He paid him $170 million through various shell corporations for tax advice. And when he was caught doing that, he was said, actually, it wasn't even useful because all the tax advice was actually in the public domains. What?

• 9:15Speaker 02

  I mean, Leslie Wexner in the 1991, I believe, signed full power of attorney over to Jeffrey Epstein. He was one of the richest men in America. I think he was the richest man in Ohio at that time. Jeffrey Epstein becomes the head of the Wexner Foundation, funnels some $2.5 million to Ayud Barak, the former Israeli prime minister. I'm putting these things out there because I want people to know that the money is an integral part of the of the operation. And to the extent that the sex trafficking and all of that is linked, they are fused together because they were used primarily by the intelligence community. Both Epstein was a conduit of high stakes money laundering for things like, you know, not Iran contra specifically, but let's say like funneling arms from Israel to Iran.

• 9:57Speaker 02

  This was also how he met eventually Robert Maxwell and became insistent with his daughter, Ghislaine Maxwell. The money laundering is actually more key to his intelligence rules.

• 10:06Tucker Carlson?

  From Israel to Iran?

• 10:07Speaker 02

  Well, this was a key part of the Maxwell story. Robert Maxwell is a very sketchy character, Ghislaine Maxwell's father. People focus on the tabloid. That's actually not all what I'm interested in. What I'm interested in is the fact that he's this Czechoslovakian. He's this Czechoslovakian Orthodox Jew who like escapes from the Nazis. He eventually becomes a highly decorated soldier. You know, actually, I think he won the second highest medal in the UK for his operations during World War II. From that point forward, becomes very, very enmeshed with the Zionist community inside of the UK and propping up the newly formed state of Israel. From that point forward, he basically serves as a high stakes, like almost an entity in and of itself. That's the way that Daryl Cooper has described him is like a sovereign wealth fund almost,

• 10:52Speaker 02

  which with together brokers, all kinds of deal, cut out deals, you know, between Israel and Iran. And actually Epstein himself, when he was just 28 years old, met, you know, flew on a private I believe to the Pentagon with somebody who we know is directly linked to these, you know, previous intelligence operations and funneling money and weapons into many of these conflicts. So this stretches back decades and that's a very, very important part of the story. So please just do not tell me that there's no part of a systematic blackmail campaign. It's so preposterous and it actually just makes us want, it makes me want to tear my hair out. And I guess the only good news is that, just like with the Kennedy assassination, we do all know the truth. It's the Kennedy assassination

• 11:34Speaker 02

  broke this country. I really believe that. I know you do as well, but it broke something even more fundamental and opened up what they called the credibility gap under the Johnson administration where prior to the 1960s, Americans trusted their government. It was actually, it was a beautiful thing. I mean, it was, it was bad in some ways as well. We were taken advantage of by the Dulles brothers and a lot of other horrible things they were doing in the 1950s. But it was beautiful in the sense of social and of civic trust. And there's something was broken with that, with the Kennedy assassination. And then it was extended, of course, into the war in Vietnam. And we've never been the same since. And all the Trump, you know, the Trump administration elected on the backs of, of, of a lot of these people who want more transparency in government, saw a lot of this corruption, to just turn around and do the same thing. It's just too much. It's,

• 12:19Speaker 02

  it's too much for me and I think it's too much for a lot of other people.

• 12:21Tucker Carlson?

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• 15:55Tucker Carlson?

  I remember thinking when Epstein killed himself, I never met Epstein, but I mean, he, you know, knew everybody. I mean, I will say, I mean, in his, you know, in the defense of people who got caught up in this because they went to dinner at Epstein's, like that George Stephanopoulos, for example, who I disagree with on everything, but like, I know George and I don't think George is having sex with kids at Epstein's. It's like Epstein was, you know, just part of like the social fabric, right? And Trump knew him for, for that reason also. But when he killed himself, I remember thinking people were like, he didn't kill himself. I was like, he probably killed himself, you know, he's in jail, whatever. His brother Mark called me a couple of days after he killed himself. And so began this like three year long conversation with Mark Epstein and looking into it in, in a way I never thought I would, he didn't kill himself.

• 16:39Speaker 02

  No.

• 16:40Tucker Carlson?

  He was murdered in his cell.

• 16:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:42Tucker Carlson?

  And I think that's really meaningful. It's the most secure federal lockup in the United States. How can that happen? It can't happen without state actors involved.

• 16:50Speaker 02

  That's right. Look at the story that we were told at that time. Part of the information dump here by the administration is some hours of footage. We were told that footage didn't exist. We were told that this was some guards who were, you know, off duty. They fell asleep. This was, and none of it exists and actually, you know, it was all part of a screw up and the camera angles wouldn't even be able to show anything, but that's why they're relatively confident. So, so where did this camera footage even come from?

• 17:15Tucker Carlson?

  Well, the camera footage doesn't even, first of all, it ends before they take his body out. Why can't we see that? And the angle on it is absurd.

• 17:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:23Tucker Carlson?

  But the real question, just not to be pedantic, but the real question is, who are the other inmates on that cell block? So no one came in or out of the cell block. I think that's fair. It was the most secure cell block in that federal lockup in Manhattan. But who were the other inmates? And I went to Department of Prisons, which is part of DOJ, and asked, like, what are their names? Oh, he can't for privacy reasons. Really? These are people who can't vote or own a firearm?

• 17:43Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 17:44Tucker Carlson?

  You know, for the rest of their lives? But somehow, they've got like a HIPAA law or something around who's a federal inmate? Fuck you, actually.

• 17:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:50Tucker Carlson?

  Sorry. It made me so mad. Because, of course, if Epstein was murdered, and it's very clear that he was, he was murdered by another inmate.

• 17:58Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 17:59Tucker Carlson?

  And we know that a bunch of them were transferred out of that unit right after he died. Who were they? Where are they now?

• 18:03Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 18:04Tucker Carlson?

  Like, why can't we get an answer to that question? So, the whole thing that this tape shows he didn't kill himself is like a joke. But worse than that, it's a joke that we all get. Like, they're not fooling anybody. So I feel like we're at a dangerous point now.

• 18:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, I agree, because the lie is more indicative. It's not, the lie, at this point, is not even part of trying to convince any of this is true.

• 18:26Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, yes.

• 18:26Speaker 02

  The lie is a signal to everybody else involved in the scheme that to the, to the ultimate ends, the United States government will go to protect all of you.

• 18:35Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 18:36Speaker 02

  And that's the que, for what?

• 18:37Tucker Carlson?

  Man, it's that smart.

• 18:38Speaker 02

  Purpose.

• 18:38Tucker Carlson?

  Can you say that again?

• 18:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 18:40Tucker Carlson?

  It's, I'm sorry, it's a signal?

• 18:42Speaker 02

  The lie is not for you and me. The lie is for those implicated to say, no matter what, we will protect you. And then we have to start asking the question, why? As in, what is the purpose of this entire thing? Why does it matter that it happens right before the Israeli prime minister comes to Washington for the third time? As you said, what is the linkage here between those two? And the linkage is the fact that even a, you know, even a surface level view of Jeffrey Epstein, of the case, of the entire public record, reveals Alex Acosta, who said he belonged to intelligence. He said that. The person who was responsible for the sweetheart 13-month deal.

• 19:23Speaker 02

  Alex Acosta, who was the US attorney, said, and I believe he testified this in sworn testimony, said, "I was told he belonged to intelligence." That was a key part of why he, the charges were dropped against him. And, you know, he got some sweetheart Palm Beach County jail situation where he was allowed to leave on the weekends. And why, even though I know he'll forgive George, but I actually won't. I don't have dinner with pedophiles. I'm not sure about you. Um, I'm generally aware of the people who I am around and if I can get invited to someone's house, I do cursory Google searches. That's generally what, you know, I think that's normal. I, I don't want to be in the presence of people who I think are like genuinely evil.

• 19:59Speaker 02

  That's, that's what I think. So for me, I actually can't forgive many of the media figures and the, uh, you know, the, the presidents, people like Bill Clinton, Kevin Spade, all these other high profile figures. Specifically because it was all out in the public record. And then in particular, all of these high flying Wall Street financiers and Deutsche Bank, remember they were fined, I think it was the New York Financial Services. I read that entire report. It's one of the most extraordinary reports I've ever seen because they specifically talk about how the bank ignored almost every single one of its own procedures. That it would apply to any other client and that at the highest levels, and remember, I think is the Barclays CEO.

• 20:39Speaker 02

  He's already been in trouble for this, for covering up much of this in one of the largest financial institutions in the entire world. You know, for example, Tucker, if you and I keep going to the bank and withdrawing $9,900 in cash and we do it for a couple of weeks, our banking institutions are supposed to call, you know, both the IRS and the DOJ and say, something is going on here. And they, and they will. And they will, and they should, right? That is what this is done for a reason. He did this for years. And the classification that they, the bank accepted was it was just for tips. This is, this is what I mean about the highest level of the cover up and what the, what the cover up means for the system itself.

• 21:16Speaker 02

  And something you and I were talking about recently is I really believe here that, and I've never believed it more, that in a sense, you know, for elected government and for all the benefits of our republic and of representation. That elites actually have always mattered. And of course they're the ones who run, they're the ones responsible for channeling public energy. This is the way that we're set up into law, into policy, et cetera. And so this lie was a signal to the elites. It was a signal to Versailles. It was a signal to the court, that the court will always be protected, no matter what. And it's enraging at a moment when the court has never been more reviled by the. Public. It's not just a spit in the face of the public. It really is like a late, you know, it's the late 1700s

• 21:59Speaker 02

  kind of signal to the court that we will protect this institution no matter what. And it's really a question for the rest of us as if we're going to continue to put up with this. I wonder what our recourse is.

• 22:10Tucker Carlson?

  None of us is paying very close attention during the summer. The news cycle calms down, families travel, people are relaxed, you're at the beach. It's all great, except the people in Washington never stop. It gives them a chance to advance their agenda without you noticing because you're on vacation. That means new regulations, more censorship, the continued erosion of the Bill of Rights, the values that built this country.

• 22:34Tucker Carlson?

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• 23:24Speaker 00

  This podcast is supported by Anthropic, the public benefit corporation behind Claude. Everyone's got a hard question about AI. Anthropic was built to surface those questions and share what it finds along the way, because there's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai slash Spotify and keep thinking. That's claude.ai slash Spotify.

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• 24:20Tucker Carlson?

  And can I say one thing that I was just been, I was brooding about this morning? When the Epstein thing first happened, when he died. And I was, I'll plead ignorance and lack of interest. I was like distracted, there's a lot of stuff going on. I get a call from someone I know, who I like, who's a like true hardcore neo con, many of whom I liked personally. Who's writing a book on Epstein. Two, two people I knew, together wrote this book on Epstein. I don't want to name them. I don't want to be mean or anything. But they're like, can we come on your show? We want, we've written a book on Epstein and this whole scandal. So I read the book and it's very sophisticated. And it's like Epstein's super bad, but the Epstein story is really limited to Epstein, this bad guy who died.

• 25:03Tucker Carlson?

  And there's no, you know, there's no evidence it was part of anything bigger that had anything to do with other countries. And they come on my show and I interview them and they're like, no, you know, yeah, there's all this stuff, mysteries. We couldn't get to the bottom of it. But you know, Epstein's really, really bad. And I, looking back, I'm like, that was all like, that was by design. Yes. Right? It was like, wow, we're exposed here and we need to, you know, we need to like throw, we need a Warren Commission, actually. No, you're right. Except a real one this time. It didn't work because, you know, Vanity Fair, to its great credit, wrote a couple of pieces, then they stopped covering it, I noticed. But they kind of got to the Wexner thing. Who's this Wexner guy? Who is this? And what?

• 25:48Tucker Carlson?

  Ties to these guys have to foreign intel services.

• 25:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 25:51Tucker Carlson?

  Which were deep. I mean, I, I think Ayud Barak like lived at Jeffrey Epstein's place.

• 25:56Speaker 02

  He flew on his plane 30 times, lived often at his, uh, his, well, his townhouse in Manhattan. At one time, the largest residence in the history of New York City, transferred to him by deed, by Leslie Wexner. For what purpose? We have no idea. He invested in Ayud Barak's defense intelligence startup. And I think the defense intelligence part there, maybe even as interesting as the fact that it's a former Israeli prime minister and former, uh, former head of Israeli military intelligence. I mean, we, this is what I'm saying about the money. The money is so important to this story. Because we already have, you know, documented cases of CIA Israeli and others buying up private corporations,

• 26:36Speaker 02

  which pose as let's say cybersecurity firms that sell to the government or other governments and use those as backdoors. So, look, if you're Ayud Barak, you've probably met, you know, some of the richest people on the planet. Why do you need, you know, these investments from Jeffrey Epstein, of all people, a tax advisor to the super rich? What did Bill Gates get from his repeated involvement with Jeffrey Epstein? Why did Melinda Gates, you know, divorce Bill Gates, um, after years and obvious knowledge of his philandering in the past? Are we really to believe it's about philandering, you know, from 20 years ago, which was well known, apparently, within Microsoft? No, it's because she probably started to get a little aware, or perhaps there was something else going on there.

• 27:17Speaker 02

  As to the extent of what that relationship was. And, you know, the fact is, is even from public reporting, we're told that Jeffrey Epstein was seen by Gates as the conduit to win the Nobel Peace Prize. How? For what purpose? How does he have all of these ins with the highest level of the intelligence or the scientific community? And then, of course, I mean, it doesn't take a genius to see the entwining between the scientific community, the academic research industrial complex and the intelligence community. So, all of these pieces, this is the unfortunate part. And, you know, even returning, like you said, to him being killed himself, let, or him allegedly killing himself. Let's not forget Michael Baden, who I think is a very authoritative figure. You know, he reviewed all of the documents, the autopsy, etc. He said, this is not. Not a case of suicide.

• 27:59Tucker Carlson?

  I've talked to him about it.

• 28:00Speaker 02

  Yes, and it's it's like, let's remember, I mean, he's one of the most, you know, what? Probably the most famous forensic, uh, like.

• 28:06Tucker Carlson?

  Pathologist, yeah.

• 28:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, pathologist in in America and his, um, research has been very, or his, you know, diagnosis has been very important in a lot of other previous cases, which turned out to be true. And so when he looks at this and we have that evidence, when we have the cover up here now at the government, I'm just, I'm appalled, you know, that this is happening at the highest level. But my only conclusion is just to return is it's just a signal to the court is don't worry about it. We've got you. It doesn't, the people don't matter in this case.

• 28:36Tucker Carlson?

  Man, I think this for a bunch of reasons, it's so obvious, it is salacious, people have followed it for years. The president promised to reveal the truth about this. Pam Bondi, as you said, well, on television, so we have the truth, we're going to give it to you.

• 28:52Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 28:54Tucker Carlson?

  I think this is kind of, I think this is a big deal. It's a really big deal. It's bigger. I, well, I hope so too, actually. So let's just assess this logically. They're covering up, the DOJ, the current DOJ under Pam Bondi is covering up crimes, very serious crimes by their own description. Why are they doing that?

• 29:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:13Tucker Carlson?

  So there are really only two potential explanations that I can think of. Maybe you've got another. The first is that Trump is involved, that, you know, Trump is on the list, that they've got tape of Trump doing something awful. Um, I don't believe that for two reasons. One, I've talked to Trump about it a lot. Um, and I, well, I know him. He's not that, you know, for whatever his sins, I don't think he's that guy, actually. I don't think he likes creepy sex stuff. That's just my view. But moreover, but more, I think convincing is that this is all information that the Biden administration had. And if there was evidence that Trump had been involved in illegal sexual activity, you you think the people who made up Russiagate wouldn't have leaked it?

• 29:51Speaker 02

  Right.

• 29:51Tucker Carlson?

  Come on now. So the only other explanation that I can think of, again, maybe you've got another, is that intel services are at the very center of this story, US and Israeli, and they're being protected. I think that seems like the most plausible.

• 30:05Speaker 02

  That's the most obvious. They have a history of this. There have been multiple documented cases of pedophilia inside of the CIA perpetrated by CIA officers, documented that in many of those cases, I believe over a dozen cases, this was a BuzzFeed News piece years back, where the CIA specifically did not want to prosecute those individuals in federal court for fear that they would reveal sources and methods if they were pulled into open court, and they basically just made it go away. The only time they actually prosecuted somebody for child pornography was whenever he'd already been prosecuted for mishandling classified information.

• 30:38Tucker Carlson?

  Well, when they want to crush you, they put kiddie porn on your computers. Why don't have a computer? Don't own one. That's why.

• 30:43Speaker 02

  If you're an important person, you should be careful.

• 30:45Tucker Carlson?

  No computer in my house.

• 30:46Speaker 02

  This is an important thing, though, is that we already have documented cases of them covering this up. I believe the CIA Inspector General, I forget the exact quote, but he said something along the lines of, "You wouldn't even believe the amount of child porn, you know, that I've seen while I'm on this job." I mean, these are depraved. Look, I mean, it's a large organization, a small percentage of the US, you know, we can make that argument. I think there is like something pathological, you know, kind of in the minds of the people who excel in this type of environment.

• 31:14Tucker Carlson?

  Of course, it's based on lying. And lying is the gateway drug to every other sin. Of course, and the veil of secrecy that protects CIA up to and including its budget, which we can't know, makes all kinds of really evil behavior possible. In fact, it inspires it. If you felt, if you had the cloak of invisibility, would that improve or degrade your behavior?

• 31:37Speaker 02

  Everyone knows the answer to that.

• 31:39Tucker Carlson?

  Of course, you'd be like, "I'm invisible." At some point, you're gonna have to go up and go like, "Ah!" You know, like you couldn't, doesn't make you a better person.

• 31:46Speaker 02

  They see their own colleagues getting away with it, and it's a permission structure. And so, look, I mean, that's a small case, but it just shows us that it's obvious, and it's something that has been in multiple intelligence communities have been ensnared in this. Again, I highly recommend Daryl Cooper's episode on the entire Epstein saga, because I didn't know about this case in Northern Ireland.

• 32:04Tucker Carlson?

  Am I allowed to listen to that? I was incredibly informed by Mark Levin that he was a Holocaust denier.

• 32:10Speaker 02

  Oh, I mean, words, words are supposed to have meaning, you know, and that's the most frustrating.

• 32:13Tucker Carlson?

  Can I ask about the neocons who are, I mean, keep in mind that it was Jay Lefkowitz, who's Bill Kristol's lawyer, who represented the Weekly Standard when I worked there. Um, who was an Epstein lawyer?

• 32:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:24Tucker Carlson?

  And so like, where is Mark Levin on Epstein? I noticed that all these very voluble people who do not hesitate before imposing their opinions on the rest of us suddenly don't have very strong opinions about Epstein. What is that?

• 32:36Speaker 02

  Every accusation is actually an admission.

• 32:39Tucker Carlson?

  So, but why is Mark Levin covering for Epstein?

• 32:41Speaker 02

  Yes, that's, that's a great question. And in particular, when he's going to accuse you of being funded by the Qatari government.

• 32:48Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, only.

• 32:49Speaker 02

  Right, that's what I mean about the accusation is the admission.

• 32:51Tucker Carlson?

  Qatari government.

• 32:52Speaker 02

  The accusation, you know, they concoct all these wild schemes about how Steve Whitkoff or me or you or anybody else is funded by the state of Qatar. When in reality, I mean, as you know, it's like, we're really, you guys want to talk about foreign funding? Like, let's go, let's take a look at your C3s and release, release all of the data.

• 33:09Tucker Carlson?

  So wild.

• 33:09Speaker 02

  I would be happy to take a look at it for you.

• 33:11Tucker Carlson?

  Especially Qatar. I found out last night at dinner, you went to high school in Qatar.

• 33:15Speaker 02

  Yes, I did. Yeah, they love to use that one. I went to high school my last two years, American School of Doha. Uh, by the way, I don't think the Qatari government likes me very much because I've talked quite a bit about how a lot of migrant laborers are abused there. But of course, they still find that that's tenuous connection is some sort of, you know, admission supposedly I'm funded. The only people who fund me are my business and the people who are premium subscribers, which is great. And, uh, and that's part of the reason I can speak the way that I am. I, I literally dare them to disclose their donors and those ties to the Israeli government and the Israel lobby. I dare them to do it and they never will, or any of the other foreign governments that directly prop them up. And this brings us to Epstein. Why, you know, the Epstein, Lissy Wexner Foundation, under Jeffrey Epstein, paid Ayud

• 33:59Speaker 02

  Barak $2.3 million to write two papers. I believe he did not even finish the second one. This is a nonprofit funnel, you know, of, of money.

• 34:07Tucker Carlson?

  Really?

• 34:08Speaker 02

  What's going on with that?

• 34:09Tucker Carlson?

  Can I get that gig?

• 34:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, can I? That sounds like a great gig. You know, for, for anybody out there who's struggling with their bills, money is easy, okay? Whenever you're willing to engage in a lot of scary sketchy behavior. And this is a pattern I've noticed all across Washington is that they ignore strategically the Epstein story because it's inconvenient. And it's not, or not even really inconvenient. I think it's just so deeply enmeshed here. I just bring it back to Alex Acosta. He told us the truth once, which was, or not us, he told them the truth once. In sworn testimony, it, he belonged to intelligence and we've never, I mean, with Maxwell, who we have all of these documented ties to Mossad and to the intelligence community and all these sketchy dealings. And then his daughter, working with Epstein.

• 34:51Speaker 02

  We have the Wexner Foundation, which we know is highly involved in Zionist interests here in the United States of America. We have Epstein as well, who's been linked to some of these organizations, or at least through funneling money via the Wexner Foundation. We know about his past, you know, with money laundering. For what purpose? That is the crux of the intelligence community's ability to move things around and to pay for off the books, extremely off the books activity. It traces back to the lying, as you said, and that's part of why we can't have the truth around.

• 35:22Tucker Carlson?

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• 36:03Tucker Carlson?

  better. Temperature has a massive effect on the way you sleep. By the way, it also detects snoring. And then it adjusts your bed position to reduce or completely stop it. So there are a lot of ladies in America who are going to be grateful for this product. Everybody who works here will tell you, because they all use it, that there's no better way to be alert, productive and happy than by sleeping well. And Eight Sleep really does help. Visit eightsleep.com/tucker, use the code TUCKER to get 350 bucks off your Pod 5 Ultra. If you don't like it, you return it within a month. That won't happen. We think you'll love it, but you can if you want. Eightsleep.com/tucker.

• 36:45Speaker 00

  This podcast is supported by Anthropic, the public benefit corporation behind Claude. Everyone's got a hard question about AI. Anthropic was built to surface those questions and share what it finds along the way, because there's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai/spotify and keep thinking. That's claude.ai/spotify.

• 37:12Speaker 05

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• 37:42Tucker Carlson?

  Why can't we have a country that is sovereign, that can make its own decisions?

• 37:46Speaker 02

  It'd be nice.

• 37:47Tucker Carlson?

  And restore health to our international relations, where we have allies, hopefully many more than we currently have. We don't have enough allies, in my opinion. I'm hardly in isolation.

• 37:56Speaker 02

  Or we have the wrong allies.

• 37:57Tucker Carlson?

  Or the wrong allies, but the number is dwindling. So it's, right, only a couple real allies left, and I'm not even sure they're allies, but whatever. But why couldn't you have, at least conceptually, a situation where you act in your own interest? And to the extent that other countries share that interest, there's a union set of interests, you ally with them transactionally. In other words, we're both for that. We both want to build an oil pipeline somewhere. We both want this shipping lane open, or we're both mad at this other country. You know, it's like, why couldn't you have that?

• 38:29Speaker 02

  It's so difficult. I mean, that's why I mentioned Israel previously in example. I think it's really important. I mean, if you were to listen to Fox News, you would think that this is the greatest juggernaut economy in the history of the world. I mean, I had ChatGPT do a mathematical analysis, and I said, give me five countries that best resemble the US-Israel trading relationship. And it was Singapore, you know, countries like Singapore, Chile, and Switzerland. And I love, like, I love those countries.

• 38:54Tucker Carlson?

  I do, too.

• 38:55Speaker 02

  I love those places.

• 38:57Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 38:57Speaker 02

  Frankly, I think Singapore has a better, you know, if we're talking about grand strategy and all that, of the list, that would put that one higher than any of the rest. But we don't talk about this in the terms of actual transaction, because then people might actually start to ask a lot of questions. I mean, I remember this with Ukraine. I was like, we barely do bilateral trade with this country. It's one of the most insignificant countries in all of Europe to the US trading relationship. We can talk at, you know, the, the way they, they blow, they blow up the Israel relationships. Israel does our dirty work for us in the US. And I'm like, well, are they doing our dirty work? Or are they doing their own dirty work? And then basically passing the buck and the bill.

• 39:34Tucker Carlson?

  But why would we outsource that anyway?

• 39:36Speaker 02

  Exactly. And so then it comes down to all these questions, like you said, of national interest. And even in the, the exception that we make for this country is just so unbelievable. I mean, let's take the case of Jonathan Pollard, who's one of the biggest traitors in the history of the United States for passing classified information on to the Israeli government. They were caught out in the open. Prime Minister Netanyahu used to visit our soil and actively campaign and urge our Presidents of the United States to pardon Jonathan Pollard for betraying our country to his country.

• 40:07Tucker Carlson?

  Do you have any idea what they did with that classified information, those secrets?

• 40:10Speaker 02

  Well, I actually have no idea, but what I do remember.

• 40:13Tucker Carlson?

  They gave them to the Soviet Union.

• 40:15Speaker 02

  Oh, that's right. That's right.

• 40:16Tucker Carlson?

  And this was during, this was in the eighties during the Cold War.

• 40:19Speaker 02

  It was 1985.

• 40:20Tucker Carlson?

  It was 85. I remember it well. I lived in Washington. My dad worked for the government. And that was a, you know, that was a very serious, whatever you think of the Cold War in retrospect, but like at the time, the full focus of the US government was focused, you know, was in opposition to the Soviets. And the Israelis gave a lot of that classified information from the US Navy to the Soviet government in exchange for allowing refuseniks, you know, Jewish Soviet citizens to move to Israel, which I'm totally for. I mean, I'm glad that they got out. I'm glad that they got out of, of the Soviet Union and made it to Israel. That's, I'm, that's great. But they took our secrets and gave them to our main enemy, our really only global enemy.

• 41:03Tucker Carlson?

  What?

• 41:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then, and have the audacity.

• 41:06Tucker Carlson?

  Well, then how can you have a relationship after that?

• 41:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, and have the audacity to come to our country and to lobby in seriousness to the presidents to visit this man in prison, to grant him Israeli citizenship, to grant him, basically the moment he's on parole, he immediately moves to Israel, he received a hero's welcome and it remains there to this day. I mean, we would not allow that for any of the country.

• 41:24Tucker Carlson?

  This is not a healthy relationship.

• 41:25Speaker 02

  This is not a healthy relationship, exactly. And that's an important thing for Americans to understand.

• 41:30Tucker Carlson?

  One of the many tragic byproducts is I think it's destroying the right. And I say that as someone who's been on the right my whole life, and my whole life I've been on the right and I really sort of believe in the basic ideas and I'm not, I'm not a liberal, that's for sure. In fact, I'm way more conservative than Mark Levin, that's for sure. But it's like, the, the problem is, the promise of MAGA is America first, and the contradiction is just too obvious. You can't, you know, if you're, if you're Joe Biden and you're, you know, senile and it's being run by a bunch of sinister, shadowy figures in the background and you do something like this, it's like, of course they're doing it. But if you get up and you say, we're going to restore greatness to this country,

• 42:12Tucker Carlson?

  we're going to do it by putting our own interests first, that's what every country does, that's kind of natural, it's organic. And then you put the interests of a country of nine million people above your own, in a way that's just insulting.

• 42:24Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 42:25Tucker Carlson?

  People can't deal with that. Like their brains start to explode. And I think this is blowing up the coalition. I hope I'm wrong. I, I support the coalition. All these people are like, you're not MAGA. Really? Did you campaign for Trump?

• 42:36Speaker 02

  Right. That's right, I mean.

• 42:39Tucker Carlson?

  Please, you know, I'm liberal, okay. But I'm, so I worry about that. I feel like that's happening.

• 42:44Speaker 02

  I think you should be worried about it. And, uh, well, look, we can parse these things at a variety of levels. So the, there's, you said MAGA, and I think that's important. I think the vast majority of people who are self-identified as MAGA, they supported the Iran strikes and they generally support President Trump and they have a lot of trust in the man.

• 43:00Tucker Carlson?

  They do.

• 43:00Speaker 02

  What I keep trying to tell people is, uh, people are saying, oh, there's a split in the MAGA, but you said it correctly, the right. And I would look at the right as the coalition that delivered Donald Trump the first popular vote victory since 2004. The margin of anti-war support for Donald Trump is his entire electoral margin in the state of Michigan, the entire electoral margin in the state of Michigan. And I think that his ability to win Michigan twice now, three, in three races, is pretty damn important for looking at the so-called realignment of the white working class and of this new coalition. Let's also look, I actually, on our show, our producer went to the Bronx, AOC's district, and interviewed people who were AOC Trump voters, and the number one reason that we got from them was war.

• 43:43Speaker 02

  It was, it was the promise to bring an end to the war, both in Israel and Gaza and in Ukraine, because there is something visceral. Let's say that you live in the Bronx and you're having problems in your neighborhood, and watching these countries get tens of billions of dollars. Three carrier strike groups of the United States of America were present in the Middle East specifically to back up Israel during the 12-day war. I, you know, you asked Ted Cruz a very important question, do you know how much that costs? I looked it up, you know, it's actually public information, it's about a quarter, it's, I believe it's like a quarter billion dollars per group, per month, for deployment. That was just for the deployment, the, the April operation. That's separate from weapons fired. That's separate from all the, and by the way, that number, which they will never

• 44:28Speaker 02

  release, is in the billions of dollars. And then let's take opportunity costs. We basically used up, you know, a massive stockpile of US interceptors, which are critical for our bases in Qatar, or for everywhere else around the world, on behalf of this foreign nation, which we were told repeatedly, the reason we give it 3.3 billion a year, was so they can defend themselves. Well, if they can defend themselves, then why did it take the full deployment of the US empire to basically shield it? And even then, in terms of its shielding, as you, I mean, I'm sure you felt the same way, I've been to Tel Aviv, watching that city get rocked by rockets was a shocking experience. That was not what we were, I hated it too. I've been there, it's a beautiful city. The people there are great, and to watch their cities, I mean, that's some London-level,

• 45:13Speaker 02

  you know, photography from World War II. And so, the fact that that happened, and that also, by the way, we just increased the defense budget to $1 trillion, for what purpose? I can't exactly tell you because even with that money all spent in the past, it doesn't seem that we're all that competent at building interceptors, at ammunition. Russia, I believe, has a defense budget like more than, what is it, one quarter or something like that of the United States produces like more ammunition than all of NATO combined. How do these things happen, right? So we have rife for corruption. The point is, is that MAGA and the right, let's say the non-MAGA right, people who voted for Donald Trump in good faith on a variety of good promises. I think for those people, and especially younger Americans, there is a visceral disgust

• 45:56Speaker 02

  at watching the level of tension and obsession over this foreign nation. And it's particularly galling because we have people like Ted Cruz who say, why are you obsessed with Israel? And it's like, what did I just describe here?

• 46:08Tucker Carlson?

  And calling you an anti, call me an anti Semite like 10 minutes in.

• 46:12Speaker 02

  It's disgusting.

• 46:13Tucker Carlson?

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• 46:57Tucker Carlson?

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• 47:23Speaker 00

  This podcast is supported by Anthropic, the public benefit corporation behind Claude. Everyone's got a hard question about AI. Anthropic was built to surface those questions and share what it finds along the way because there's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai/spotify and keep thinking. That's claude.ai/spotify.

• 47:50Speaker 05

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• 48:20Tucker Carlson?

  It's so exactly what liberals do. It's so exactly the woke right. I mean, that is, it's bewildering and it's dishonesty. I'm not engaging, I'm off the internet, I give up. But, um, but it's so revealing. It's like, wait, I just voted against this. I voted against not just the argument, but the style of argument of the left, which is to not engage with the points that you make at all, to lie past them, ignore them, and instead attack your motive and your character. You're a racist. You know, you're getting paid by Russia. We moved seamlessly from that to like Mark Levin, who saying the same, exact same thing.

• 49:04Tucker Carlson?

  You're a racist, you're anti Semite, you're hanging around with Holocaust deniers. What? You're paid by a foreign country. Qatar, which I still find hilarious. Um, for the record, of course, I've never taken a dollar from anybody. Um, I don't even have investors, but whatever. But it's go to motive rather than, rather than engage with what you said.

• 49:24Speaker 02

  I saw this all coming a mile away.

• 49:26Tucker Carlson?

  You did?

• 49:27Speaker 02

  Because.

• 49:28Tucker Carlson?

  I'm heartbroken to see it.

• 49:29Speaker 02

  Well, well, you should be.

• 49:30Tucker Carlson?

  That's why you've been successful, because you're smart.

• 49:32Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, I've taken a lot of, it's caused me a lot of personal problems, I can tell you that. But I remember, I believe it was right after October 7th, Bill Ackman and a lot of other prominent Wall Street financiers who are very pro-Israel.

• 49:46Tucker Carlson?

  Bill Ackman's done a lot for our economy, sorry.

• 49:48Speaker 02

  Oh, that's right. That's right. I forgot about that.

• 49:51Tucker Carlson?

  Hocking down publicly traded corporations and then shorting them.

• 49:53Speaker 02

  How's Herbalife doing?

• 49:55Tucker Carlson?

  It's capitalism.

• 49:56Speaker 02

  How are investors doing? I would just ask people to go and take a look at those books. But whatever. Um, let's take a look at Ackman.

• 50:01Tucker Carlson?

  He's a very patriotic guy. He's done a lot for this country. So keep that in mind.

• 50:04Speaker 02

  Okay. Um, well, this patriotic American and a lot of these other pro-Israel billionaires were literally compiling lists of students who were camp, who were protesting the Israeli government's response to October 7th. Many of these were American citizens compiling lists and basically saying, don't ever hire these people and circulating them around the highest levels of Wall Street finance of technology, getting people fired from law firms that they had.

• 50:29Tucker Carlson?

  Just because they criticized America?

• 50:30Speaker 02

  Because, no, because they criticized Israel.

• 50:33Tucker Carlson?

  What about America?

• 50:34Speaker 02

  Yes, that's an important question. But what I noticed, and I said this at the time, is for all of these people, it is now obvious that they never were really opposed to DEI.

• 50:44Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, of course not.

• 50:44Speaker 02

  What they wanted.

• 50:45Tucker Carlson?

  They paid for it.

• 50:46Speaker 02

  Yes. What they, yeah, that's a great point. What they wanted was they want their interest group, Zionism in particular, in support of the Israeli government to be included within the DEI regime. And that was a very important point because eventually that became fused somehow with MAGA. And that's how, explains a huge level of a lot of very high profile, very, very rich people in technology industry and in finance who supported the Trump administration. And the promise effectively that has now been delivered is that by using this newly crafted like DEI style regime, which basically uses the state and the police state as effectively a force for a political party in Israel. That's another thing that

• 51:28Speaker 02

  you, I love when you say this as well. It's not about even Israel at this point. We're talking about the Likudnik interests in the United States of America.

• 51:36Tucker Carlson?

  A guy who got 30% of the vote.

• 51:37Speaker 02

  30% of the vote, who is under investigation for taking money from who? Qatar, right? It's, it's, it's, it's amazing. He's literally fired the head of his own FBI for bribery allegations from Qatari money in his government and has the gall to have his, you know, interest groups here in America accuse people like you and me of taking money from the very same government that he's been credibly accused of taking. Now, listen, I don't know, you know, Trump says he's innocent or whatever. I'm at a hard time believing it.

• 52:03Tucker Carlson?

  Pretty cheeky, I would say.

• 52:04Speaker 02

  It is cheeky. And to bring it back, I guess, is what you said is about. America.

• 52:10Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 52:10Speaker 02

  Fact is, is that we're watching the weaponization largely backed by a lot of these people who have hijacked, I think, a large part of the American, maybe they didn't hijack it, maybe I'm the idiot, right? I could be the idiot for believing some of these things. Why did I read Christopher Caldwell's book and listen to Christopher Rufo and others about the civil rights regime and all of this criticism correctly of the Ibrahim Kendi and the Department of Anti-Racism and the enshrinement of DEI and the civil rights administration, just to watch it get turned around? And again, not even be used against people who are anti-American, but people who are supporting a boycott of a foreign nation, a country here now where students could burn an American flag and be fine.

• 52:50Speaker 02

  But if they protest, Israel could be liable for either deportation if they're not a citizen or denied federal grant funding. The current Trump administration is suing, using the civil rights Title VI, Title VI of the Civil Rights Act, Harvard University for not protecting Jewish students under the indifferent standard. Now, that same standard was used for some of the worst excesses in the 1970s and others of the civil rights. These are things we're supposed to be against. This is DEI, you know, run amok. And yet, we're watching this happen in our own government. And I don't see, you know, there's so many people, Ben Shapiro-

• 53:28Tucker Carlson?

  There are a lot of bias against Jewish students at Harvard?

• 53:30Speaker 02

  Oh, no.

• 53:30Tucker Carlson?

  Underrepresented?

• 53:31Speaker 02

  Not last time I checked.

• 53:32Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, I guess what I object to is lying, of course, above all, but also I object to these kinds of identity politics.

• 53:42Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 53:42Tucker Carlson?

  I thought the whole point was, we're Americans by citizenship.

• 53:46Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 53:46Tucker Carlson?

  Citizenship matters, as it did in Rome. I mean, it did. Paul's on trial in Rome and he's like, hey, I'm a Roman citizen. They're like, whoa, they back right off because like, that really meant something.

• 53:57Speaker 02

  And should be.

• 53:58Tucker Carlson?

  It should mean something, I think. And-

• 54:02Tucker Carlson?

  They're continuing in this weird leftist frame where certain people have more rights than other people.

• 54:08Speaker 02

  That's right, and that's what we're watching.

• 54:10Tucker Carlson?

  I just couldn't object to that more.

• 54:12Speaker 02

  And every American should, and look, you may not like these people, I probably wouldn't get along with a lot of these people.

• 54:18Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 54:19Speaker 02

  But let's sit here and talk about Harvard, like you said, I mean, to watch, literally, it's been 10 years ago, I was sitting with my friends in the Daily Caller office, which you were very kind to hire me into, and we were watching Ben Shapiro humiliate Triggle Puff, right? We were watching leftist students get triggered and cry when Ben Shapiro would visit campus, and we thought it was hilarious. 10 years later, I watched students literally crying at a podium with the House of Representative Speaker Mike Johnson next to them, talking about how "I didn't feel safe while I was on campus." And it's like, well, why didn't you feel safe? Because people were shouting slogans, again, protesting a foreign government. Now, that's actually a lot more about the psychology of you, but regardless, I mean,

• 55:02Speaker 02

  did we not live through a decade of snowflake and fuck your feelings? Because I was there for that, and I'm not going to sit here and watch people who made millions of dollars, Shapiro and Dave Rubin and all these other people, making fun of student, leftist students, only to co-opt the same level of identity politics. And like you said about Harvard, okay, like, and this is important, what is the problem with Harvard? To me, the problem of Harvard is it took our most elite institute, Harvard is, you know, the whole Ivy League, our most elite students, it crippled them with debt, and 41% of graduates now work in finance, consulting, and tech, okay? Some of the worst industries that are directly extractive of the American consumer, basically getting rich on their backs, addicting them to, you know, crippling financial products,

• 55:45Speaker 02

  technology, consult, I don't even know what a lot of people consulting do, apparently they make a lot of money doing it. Is that a productive industry for our country?

• 55:53Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 55:53Speaker 02

  And then Harvard University admitted the same, actually, less students in the class of 2023 than it did in 1981. The US population has grown 110 million since that point. Now, why do they do that? It's for ultra-exclusivity, it's to jack up, you know, prices for their tuition.

• 56:09Tucker Carlson?

  They admitted fewer students in 81?

• 56:11Speaker 02

  Than in 81, and the US population has grown 110 million since that point.

• 56:15Tucker Carlson?

  Has their... Administrative staff grown?

• 56:18Speaker 02

  Oh, of course. And, uh, but actually, you're not even asking the right question. What about their endowment fund? They're basically a private equity firm with a small education department. And, you know, this, they lobby against the endowment tax through Congress. The endowment tax says, hey, increase your student body size relative to your endowment, and you don't have to pay any tax. But they don't do that because it's all about artificial constraints, saddling these kids up with debt, basically taking the best and brightest of the United States of America and turning them into cogs of managerial capitalism. That is not the Harvard University of the, you know, the early, let's say, the World War II period. That is not the MIT. They're all doing the same thing. Those universities were our crown jewel and got government money from them

• 57:01Speaker 02

  so that they could set up and go work in industries that were productive and beneficial to our country. That's my current critique of Harvard. I think that's one most Americans would agree with. I think that's my critique of higher education in general. It's not the Middle Eastern Studies Department, okay? It's not suing them under the Civil Rights Act. And to just to watch this weaponization right now, you know, by Pam Pon.

• 57:23Tucker Carlson?

  It's just such a lie.

• 57:24Speaker 02

  It is a lie.

• 57:25Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, if you really want to play like the demographics game and who's getting shafted and like, well, who gets into Harvard, actually?

• 57:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right. Let's take a look.

• 57:33Tucker Carlson?

  Let's see the numbers and does that reflect the US population?

• 57:37Speaker 02

  No.

• 57:37Tucker Carlson?

  In fact, let's get even radical on the subject. Let's measure it against IQ tests.

• 57:42Speaker 02

  Hmm, yeah.

• 57:43Tucker Carlson?

  No, I'm serious. You can say, well, you know, the American population, it's not all qualified to go to Harvard. Okay, great. So how about, let's use SAT scores as a proxy for IQ? Is Harvard letting in the smartest people?

• 57:54Speaker 02

  No. In fact, there is a concerted effort right now to drop or abandon SAT or any other qualitative measure specifically, you know, to enshrine more of this DEI style regime.

• 58:06Tucker Carlson?

  So who's actually getting discriminated against here?

• 58:07Speaker 02

  Exactly. And so then...

• 58:09Tucker Carlson?

  It's too much, though. Like, I don't even want to have that conversation. I know the answer because I know the numbers, which I'm not going to repeat here. But, um, because I don't want to add to the identity politics stuff because I think it's a dead end.

• 58:20Speaker 02

  That's not what we're about.

• 58:21Tucker Carlson?

  I don't want to be about that.

• 58:23Speaker 02

  We want to live in a more equitable country. That's it.

• 58:25Tucker Carlson?

  They're pushing us toward it. But the problem is when you lie that aggressively and you use my government to do it and all of its armed institutions to do it, then you force me. You're making people radical with this stuff.

• 58:38Speaker 02

  Yes, and they should be. I mean, I can...

• 58:40Tucker Carlson?

  I don't want radicalism, but they're forcing, when the Congress passes 22 anti-Semitism...

• 58:46Tucker Carlson?

  Resolutions in the last few years and there's still a lot of bias in America, you know, and there's still a lot of problems in America that are totally unaddressed and they're getting worse. You turn people radical. That's, I'm worried about that.

• 59:02Speaker 02

  One of those resolutions they passed through the House actually conflated antisemitism with anti-Zionism, which is, you know, I mean, they're literally saying it is antisemitic, as in-

• 59:12Tucker Carlson?

  It's a crime to criticize a foreign country.

• 59:14Speaker 02

  A foreign country, or even an ideology which believes in the existence-

• 59:17Tucker Carlson?

  Why are they doing this?

• 59:19Speaker 02

  -of a foreign country.

• 59:19Tucker Carlson?

  Why are they doing this?

• 59:20Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, look-

• 59:20Tucker Carlson?

  It's bonkers, man. It's bonkers.

• 59:22Speaker 02

  It's beyond bonkers, and I wish money were the answer. I'm not saying it isn't just a critical part of it.

• 59:27Tucker Carlson?

  I agree.

• 59:27Speaker 02

  It is a part of just this propagandistic campaign to convince that this is our greatest ally, that actually we would die before we would let any of them die. And a lot of it is enshrined, unfortunately, in like a bastardization of Christian and rabbinical theology, as Ted Cruz revealed. I mean, actually, what really revealed to me was, he didn't even really know what he was saying, what he was quoting.

• 59:52Tucker Carlson?

  He had no idea.

• 59:53Speaker 02

  But he was taught-

• 59:54Tucker Carlson?

  He didn't know what book it was in.

• 59:56Speaker 02

  But that's a legitimate belief. I mean, that's how-

• 59:58Tucker Carlson?

  It's in the Bible.

• 59:59Speaker 02

  Right. That's how we end up with Brian Mast wearing the uniform of a foreign country in my Congress. And that, that's what offends me more than anything, is the only uniform, in my opinion, that a United States Congress person should ever wear, is that of the United States of America.

• 1:00:14Tucker Carlson?

  Well, yeah. And, and I would say to the, you know, to, to MAGA voters, this is the program we voted for, the one that puts our country where we were born at the center of the conversation, at the top of the priority list.

• 1:00:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:28Tucker Carlson?

  So those are the rules. So like, anyway, I, where does this, I'm worried that the contradictions are too obvious, the lies are too transparent, it's, this is too insulting. You can't, I can't even deal with it. I feel like I'm the least radical person I know. I just, I'm happy to not talk about certain subjects just so we can all get along. I'm a Wasp in the end. I don't want conflict, okay? I know everyone thinks I'm like, I don't hate conflict, actually. But they're forcing this on all of us, and I feel like the system is breaking as a result.

• 1:00:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:56Tucker Carlson?

  Do you feel that?

• 1:00:57Speaker 02

  I do. And the reason, I mean, it's, I don't think Marx actually said it, but that, you know, in accelerationism, it's about heightening the contradictions. It's a Marxian theory. And in a way, like, I do think that that's what they're doing to all of us, is they're forcing people who are sympathetic, who want to see our country first, who reject a lot of the premises of the left, spent a decade of our lives, in my case, you've spent multiple decades of your life, fighting against many of these forces, which we found repulsive, which we blame for the destruction of our country. And then watching that get hijacked, and, again, maybe I'm the fool. There was plenty of evidence it could go this way. I didn't think it would. I didn't think in particular it would go this far. But it's one of those where the breaking is happening

• 1:01:42Speaker 02

  at a voter level, and in particular, in the platform that you and I are speaking right now. I mean, as you know, I mean, I began my career by just going on Fox News. It's how I got trained in television. Obviously, you started, and you've been on all of these platforms. We could not even have this conversation.

• 1:01:57Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 1:01:57Speaker 02

  I would say 10 years ago. I don't think that the distribution and the audience and just the entire network that enables this possibility was there, but it's been felt at a deep level, in the way that Oliver Stone's JFK film released something in America in 1991.

• 1:02:16Tucker Carlson?

  That's right.

• 1:02:16Speaker 02

  It's always been inside of us, but now we have the voice. We have the words. But next is the tools. And a lot of people thought we had that tools with this administration.

• 1:02:24Tucker Carlson?

  Can you just pause right now?

• 1:02:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:26Tucker Carlson?

  So I should just say, you alluded to it, you worked for me, not directly, but for a company that... That I helped start. And then at like a really young age, you decided to, you're one of the very first people I knew personally and decided to punch out and go independent. Because you had this really clear and it turned out correct view that the two party system, well, there are differences between the parties, but fundamentally, they were aligned on the big issues.

• 1:02:54Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:02:54Tucker Carlson?

  And that a lot of voters didn't agree with their position on the big issues, mostly the economy and war. And you kind of moved out into this independent media world at what age?

• 1:03:06Speaker 02

  I was 28, I guess. So 28 years old.

• 1:03:09Tucker Carlson?

  So if you don't mind if it's not too embarrassing, because you told me, I asked you a bunch of very specific questions about it last night, because I'm in that business, I'm interested. What, like, how you, you leave the Daily Caller, you go on Fox a lot, you're like a young pundit or whatever. So embarrassing. I did, I did it too. I know. It's so embarrassing. And then you decided to go independent. What happened? Like, can you just give us that brief story? Because I think it says a lot about the moment.

• 1:03:35Speaker 02

  Well, I owe a lot to the organization you started and to Jeffrey Ingersoll, to Vince, to Neil Patel and all of these guys. And the reason why is they put me in the position that made me have this realization. And what it was is being a White House correspondent. And what I discovered as being a White House correspondent, I mean, I don't want to toot my own horn, I think I was good at it. I interviewed Trump four times in two years. I asked several, you know, multiple questions for the record, multiple different foreign leaders, you know, got stories, scoops, etc. But what I came to understand in the White House briefing room is I would watch. So for people who don't understand, in the front row is all the networks, the major networks.

• 1:04:09Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:04:09Speaker 02

  Run by the White House Correspondents Association, which is a cartel, a non-governmental cartel, which runs the entire, I can get into that later if we would like. But I would watch every single person from the network ask some version of the same question, which was about Robert Mueller at the time.

• 1:04:23Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:23Speaker 02

  And I said, no one gives a shit about Robert Mueller.

• 1:04:25Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 1:04:25Speaker 02

  And I would always ask a question, not about that. What I came to understand was that they were actually all performing for themselves. And what I really came to understand eventually was that the entire mainstream media is about performing for each other, for social and for career purposes. But even more broadly, is that the mainstream media is a trade. And it's a trade publication for people in Washington and for people in power. There is a boomer legacy element to this, which obviously exists, but broadly, it's not actually about informing the people. In fact, you know, in terms of the journalism that I did, I tried to always ask questions I thought were relevant to the actual voters, but I didn't realize how counter that was to the entire philosophy of a lot of the people who actually work and cover the media professionally.

• 1:05:07Speaker 02

  Then I came to see that Fox, CNN, MSNBC are all vital parts of this machine. It's all part of a machine where Washington, as the imperial capital, speaks to each other. They're conduits for information, which is relevant only to an individual node within the nexus. The voter did not matter in that equation. So what I decided to do is I had this opportunity to go to The Hill, currently the hill.com and co-host this show with currently my co-host Crystal Ball. And what her and I really bonded over, and remember the first segment we really bonded over was just about the opioid crisis. And I was like, I think that this is one of the most under addressed issues in America. It gets lip service, you know, at the White House and others, nobody's really doing anything about it. Deaths of despair, our life expectancy at that time was going down. And so we just, you know, that's, that was kind of the evolution, like you said,

• 1:05:53Speaker 02

  of realizing that where the two parties agree and the media in particular focuses on is really the exact opposite of where most people are. If you spend a lot of your time with people who are not political, they don't care about Robert Mueller. They don't particularly care about most of the scandals in Washington of the day. They're like, hey, my mortgage is really expensive. My kid's college really, if I was lucky enough to save for a 529, the inflation has gotten so out of control, I can't do that. I'm really worried about the loan that my child is taking out. My, one of my friend's kids recently died of a drug overdose. These are the things that animate, you know, the kitchen table and about the concern and the feeling that our country is being taken away from me, the southern border. And it's not just a feeling of this uncontrolled chaos at the border.

• 1:06:36Speaker 02

  There's a feeling of the collapse of social cohesion in our country. All of us can feel it. If you go to another country like Switzerland or Japan with controlled immigration, you will realize how radical it is actually. And those are both very radicalizing experiences for me. But I just returned to the point of Why I wanted to go independent fundamentally is I wanted to cover the news in a way that I felt was actually applicable to the lives of everyday people. And I noticed a burgeoning movement on YouTube and in podcasts where this distribution platform basically allowed me to talk as long as I want to in the way that I am with you. And I mean, the most frustrating moments in my career, 24 years old, young, embarrassing pundit is being invited on Fox News at 11:55 PM for a three-person

• 1:07:20Speaker 02

  conversation about nationalism. And I got to speak for maybe 45 seconds. I can't articulate all my thoughts on this subject, and they're actually really important. And you know, that's where the fugazi element of all of that, it became too much and I just felt so much more free. And by the way, as you know, at that time, everybody told me not to do it. They're like, what are you doing? You've got your career set. You're a White House correspondent. You can go work at any of these other company, you know, a lot of other companies were trying to recruit me at that time. They said, you're an idiot for going to this unproven concept. You don't know if it's going to work. And it was, I mean, the greatest bet, I guess, of my life because we took this small channel, Crystal and I, of some 6,000. I think we had 100,000 subscribers in three

• 1:08:01Speaker 02

  months. And we had an audience of, you know, millions, basically, by the time we'd left, less than two years later. But that was the confidence that I had to go independent was I knew that the knowledge was there. Why did you leave if it was working? Well, the knowledge, basically, it became irreconcilable to be attached to a mainstream media organization. And I've talked about this publicly, but the owners and the people who worked there, we were starting to become so popular that our comments were causing problems in Washington is that people were getting upset at the things we would say, advertisers or members of Congress, they would call our bosses and pressure began to come down to kind of change the way that we would talk about certain subjects. This is, by the way, happens in every mainstream

• 1:08:41Speaker 02

  media corporation. It's part of the reason that being, the way we set up our business is so the vast majority of our revenue comes from subscriptions. And it's because we don't want to be accountable to any advertiser or anybody else. We don't even read ads on our platform specifically for that reason. And it's all to insulate my ability to be able to come here And talk the way that I do about a subject I feel passionately about, let's say Israel and free speech, which I know already, every word that I'm saying here is going to be dissected, is going to be used as an attack vector. And in the past, that could have cost me my career. And at the end of the day, that's why I decided to leave, is to be able to speak the truth. That's why Crystal, as well, was the level of control, inevitably, even with the freest hand possible,

• 1:09:24Speaker 02

  while attached to these behemoths mainstream media, it's irreconcilable. If you want to tell the truth, you cannot be attached to any organization, which depends on insider access and on insider money. You have to separate yourself from that entity.

• 1:09:39Tucker Carlson?

  Well, yes, that has been the experience of my life. What were the red lines? Did you find, so you're young and you're, as you're hosting this show on a kind of brand new medium, you know, this weird setup where you're working for The Hill, but you're doing an independent show. You're learning what you're not allowed to say.

• 1:09:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, can't criticize the age of members of Congress. How did that work out, by the way, conversations around age? Can't criticize TikTok, the Chinese government, that was a big one. Can't criticize or talk openly about Israel. Can't criticize, my favorite was CNBC, Jim Cramer.

• 1:10:18Tucker Carlson?

  Can't criticize Jim Cramer?

• 1:10:20Speaker 02

  Which is hilarious. If you go on Twitter, there's an entire inverse Kramer index of.

• 1:10:25Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, people get rich betting against.

• 1:10:27Speaker 02

  People get very rich.

• 1:10:28Tucker Carlson?

  Jim Cramer is so stupid that people get rich taking the opposite advice.

• 1:10:32Speaker 02

  I still laugh about that one.

• 1:10:34Tucker Carlson?

  What happened?

• 1:10:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, I said he was an idiot and, you know.

• 1:10:39Tucker Carlson?

  Your bosses were like, no.

• 1:10:40Speaker 02

  Oh, we can't say things like that, you know, but.

• 1:10:44Tucker Carlson?

  Jim Cramer is very smart. He went to Harvard.

• 1:10:46Speaker 02

  Pharma, I forgot Pharma. We talked a lot about Big Pharma. That's, you know, that's one. I mean, look, take a look at the ads, really, but it's, it wasn't that. Because I didn't actually change anything I said, but I can't sit here and not lie to my, to this audience and say that it was never, it was always in the back of my head.

• 1:11:02Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, yeah. Oh, for sure. You don't even realize how, how present it is in your head until it's not there.

• 1:11:07Speaker 02

  Look, I mean, I was young, you know, I needed to eat, you know, I have a salary. These are realities that I'm just laying out for people. And as, you know, as free and as ethical as I try to uphold myself in a crystal as well, we couldn't, we just could not stay in that environment. And that's why we decided to go.

• 1:11:24Tucker Carlson?

  So then you decide to go and you basically take a version of the same show, totally independent on the internet, relying on subscriptions. Mostly subscriptions rather than advertising for the reasons you just so well described. What happens?

• 1:11:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it wildly exceeds our expectations in the very first day of launch. Both.

• 1:11:43Tucker Carlson?

  On the first day?

• 1:11:44Speaker 02

  The first day of launch, I mean, they basically enabled us to run the company for a year, which was insane. I mean.

• 1:11:50Tucker Carlson?

  In other words, you made enough on your very first day.

• 1:11:53Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:11:53Tucker Carlson?

  To run a debt free.

• 1:11:54Speaker 02

  To run the company.

• 1:11:55Tucker Carlson?

  How many investors did you have?

• 1:11:56Speaker 02

  We had zero investors. The only investors, quote unquote, were my credit card account and her credit card account. So we took, it was a gamble entirely of.

• 1:12:04Tucker Carlson?

  If you don't mind me asking, what did it cost to launch it?

• 1:12:06Speaker 02

  I believe, uh, uh, probably like $50,000 or $60,000 if I had to guess, but that was it. And.

• 1:12:13Tucker Carlson?

  The whole enterprise?

• 1:12:14Speaker 02

  The whole, just to launch, to launch, not to run.

• 1:12:16Tucker Carlson?

  In one day, you got a full year's operating revenue.

• 1:12:20Speaker 02

  What we were able to do, and actually enough so that we were even also able to hire, like at the time, we needed a sound person. These are all important things.

• 1:12:28Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:28Speaker 02

  Lighting, an entire technical team, the ability to make sure that we're, you know, distributing faster, um, you know, I was, these are all more boring things for the audience, but things that people may not realize.

• 1:12:39Tucker Carlson?

  The reason I'm asking you is because it's, your story describes how low the barrier to entry is.

• 1:12:43Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 1:12:43Tucker Carlson?

  If you know what you want to say, if you have a point of view, if you're committed to honesty and independence, you can actually do it.

• 1:12:50Speaker 02

  You can do it.

• 1:12:51Tucker Carlson?

  That's why it's so thrilling.

• 1:12:52Speaker 02

  That is why it's thrilling. I mean, I mean, I was taking a look at your setup this morning and I was talking to some of your tech guys and I said, isn't it amazing that we couldn't even do this 10 years ago? And I'm looking at your equipment. I have much of the same equipment. I mean, look, it's, it's decent money, but it's not a lot of money, actually.

• 1:13:05Tucker Carlson?

  No, no, no.

• 1:13:06Speaker 02

  And especially compared to, I mean, you and I have seen those, the Fox News New York control room. I mean, it's like being in the International Space Station. It's crazy.

• 1:13:13Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, when they fired me, they came and sent their guys up here and, because I did my show from here for years and they ripped out all their equipment, which is fine. It was their equipment.

• 1:13:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:13:21Tucker Carlson?

  And so we're like, and we have a full studio that.

• 1:13:23Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:13:23Tucker Carlson?

  You know, we built with their money, you know, my guys built it, but whatever. And they put all their tech in there and then they took it all away. I wasn't mad, but I was like, okay, we have to, I have to pay for this now in my pocket because I'm unemployed. And we just moved to our dining room table, which is literally our family dining room table we're sitting now.

• 1:13:42Tucker Carlson?

  And it didn't cost that much.

• 1:13:43Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:13:43Tucker Carlson?

  So I think that's the only, I never talk about money or business or because I'm not an expert on either one, but I just think it's so exciting to know that you can do that.

• 1:13:51Speaker 02

  And I, I hope that's inspiring to people who are out there.

• 1:13:54Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:13:55Speaker 02

  Uh, I, I, I think really what it comes down to is not only audience, but the ability to say what you actually think.

• 1:14:01Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:14:01Speaker 02

  And I've, what I have found is that some of the most miserable people in all of media are the people who work in these corporations. Because they know, they know and want to say many of the things you and I are saying. And they'll tell us privately, of course, but they'll never say it. And, um, I don't really know how much money that's worth, uh, but beyond that, I don't really know how as a human being, you know, you can just can you to get up and everything.

• 1:14:22Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I agree and I empathize because I was a TV anchor for most of my life. I empathize with the guys who like get the guest read out, you know, they sit down before the show, like who are we interviewing today? And there's Mark Levin on there and like, nobody likes Mark Levin and he's horrible television, he's screechy and what he's saying is like deranged. And even if you sort of agree with Mark Levin's point of view, you can't have Mark Levin on TV.

• 1:14:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:42Tucker Carlson?

  It's just an insult to the audience and it's insult the anchor. And having to see Mark Levin and turning off camera and being like, this fucking guy again? Like, why are we doing this? And they're going to be like, oh, the second floor told us to do it. Ah! Even if you're totally on board with, you know, killing every Muslim or whatever their program is, that still has got to drive you crazy. It's like an assault on your self-respect every single time.

• 1:15:06Speaker 02

  But what I found, and I'm sure you find the same, is that what I saw for them is they started to believe that proximity to power is power itself. And what I found really gross about that is they start to fetishize like the most ridiculous things, as in who gets the first rope line when you get to ask Trump a question? I mean, the amount of actual physical fighting that happens in that scrum, people would genuinely not believe.

• 1:15:29Tucker Carlson?

  Really?

• 1:15:30Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. I got, I got, I got hit in the, uh, in the head once actually with an elbow from a photographer for taking his spot, even though there's no unassigned spots. Again, these are minutia, but what I'm saying is it's a, it's a level of psychosis that takes over because.

• 1:15:44Tucker Carlson?

  In the White House press corps.

• 1:15:45Speaker 02

  In the White House press corps. Everything is about access to the president. And so everybody is jockeying in a zero sum environment. Where everyone is trying to get the interview or going to schmooze this person or that person. But the problem with that is they turn from practitioner to starting to believe that they themselves are important and this vital conduit of information. And what you turn into is basically an apparatchik of the state environment that I'm talking about. And so for many of the anchors and others, they live for the black tie war at White House Correspondents' Dinner or getting invited to a cocktail party or a book party. I mean, this is the currency of Washington and of New York. It has been for decades, but you start to live, you know, you start to fill that emptiness inside

• 1:16:26Speaker 02

  of you with the knowledge that you get the FaceTime with a sub-cabinet appointee at a dinner and you can use that information because Senator Schumer knows your name. These are, these are all very important things, you know, for the social capital. And this is pathetic. I want people to know this is pathetic and I watch people live their entire lives on Capitol Hill and the White House Press Corps in television and other for all of these like empire, imperial level events that are put on to just make them feel special and continue on in the machine. And I actually didn't realize how radical it was for people like you or people like me to say, I actually don't care about that at all. I don't, I don't care if I ever go to another cocktail party or another black tie dinner or

• 1:17:08Speaker 02

  any of these things, simply to be in the presence of people who are actually powerful. I would rather just critique them and say what I actually think. And the irony, of course, is as you have found out, when you say what you actually think and you are critical of them in an honest way, they take you so much more seriously.

• 1:17:25Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:17:26Speaker 02

  They laugh at you when you're one of those people who cares about cocktail parties or any of that. You're one of the most useful cogs in the machine. It's the people they can't control are the people who they call because they're the inconvenient voices.

• 1:17:37Tucker Carlson?

  So that was, it's interesting you say that because that was my next question. So the, the whole process of covering the White House, being in the White House Press Corps, going to the briefings and the gaggle and all that, going to the parties.

• 1:17:47Speaker 02

  Are you actually getting information? No, I've never gotten more information than what I do right now. I actually during the 12 day war, I literally never got more information from inside of the entire apparatus than I ever did when I was covering the White House. And it was because I was so critical of the Trump administration, of the direction that they were taking. And many of the people who I spoke to, for the record, actually were not, almost none who I knew personally. Almost all simply saw my commentary and agreed with me and wanted a conduit for information to be able to get out of there. And that was, that's a great lesson, by the way, for any white aspiring journalists or others who listen, is you need, they will take you much more seriously if you hit them in the face.

• 1:18:29Speaker 02

  And hitting them in the face makes them kind of shocked because it's so counter to the way that the machine works. When you work in the machine, they can call your editor, they can call your boss, they can call your advertiser, they can put a significant amount of pressure on you. But when they can't control you, they start to freak out. And that is one of the most useful lessons of my life, actually, in terms of coverage and in terms of journalism and the ability to speak out. Speaking out can get you, is unfortunately such a differentiator from where the entire, like, traditional system really starts to work. What's the downside? Well, the downside is, you know, freezing out of the entire social movement of professional Washington is that professional Washington protects its own, it's effectively is a jobs

• 1:19:12Speaker 02

  network for each other, so that people who are in and out of government always have reliable sources of income. Implicit within that is that, hey, this is what we think about Israel, this is what we think about X, Y, taxes, you know, these are, this is what we think about the carried interest loophole, we don't talk about that. Ever. The step up basis, this is what we think about cutting social security, this is an accepted fact, you know, we need to accept this, that it's acceptable, you know, to kick elderly people off social security or Medicare or food stamps. And we just take this information and in exchange for that information, we get a job for the rest of our lives. If I hadn't gone independent, I could have easily relied on working in Washington until the age of 65 within the machine. That would have been actually very doable. And, you know, this, this was the risk, actually.

• 1:19:57Speaker 02

  Saying what you actually want to say, that is the riskiest thing you can do within the system. And in exchange, you will no longer get invited to these dinners or any of these other things. You have to be okay with that. You have to be okay, I think, with something that you have found as well by being denounced by people who you knew personally.

• 1:20:12Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, I know.

• 1:20:12Speaker 02

  Or people who, you know, who you would help in their career.

• 1:20:15Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:20:16Speaker 02

  People who you, you know, in many ways, you're like, I, I, I would personally never do that to you. I can't really believe that you're doing it to me.

• 1:20:22Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, I know.

• 1:20:22Speaker 02

  And the reason you're doing it is, we all know what it is, is you're being controlled by a broader and a bigger, either financial or foreign lobby interest.

• 1:20:31Tucker Carlson?

  I've had this experience.

• 1:20:32Speaker 02

  And this is the red line for you?

• 1:20:33Tucker Carlson?

  Where you call people and you're like, I can't believe you said that about me, you know, calling me a bigot or whatever, when you know that I'm not. And, um, I, I don't, I don't even go on, I don't even go on the internet anymore. So I have no idea what people are saying, but I, you know, several years ago, when all this began, I remember calling a couple of people. And, you know, one person, I said, well, let's have lunch. No.

• 1:20:56Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:20:58Tucker Carlson?

  No, okay. Um, so did that, so when you went independent, you've been in DC because you got there for college. You've been there for 10 years. You know a lot of people.

• 1:21:06Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:21:06Tucker Carlson?

  Got there at 18, right?

• 1:21:07Speaker 02

  Yes, 18 years old.

• 1:21:08Tucker Carlson?

  Started independent at 28. So you know a ton of people. You're a social person, I happen to know. So you are going to tons of events and you have tons of friends and all of a sudden you're going off in a direction. You're not spewing hate or bigotry at all, but you are saying things that other people are not saying. How intensely did people you know try to bring you back?

• 1:21:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, almost immediately. There were a lot of warnings about, hey, this is dangerous or, I mean, the my close.

• 1:21:34Tucker Carlson?

  Really?

• 1:21:35Speaker 02

  Well, my close friends knew that they'd supported me, but it was really like the professional friends, people who you're broadly acquainted with are like, what's he up to? You know, what's his deal? What's, what's happening here? And you, it's, it's incredible how small, how rapid that shrink can happen in terms of not being invited to these things anymore. Or, uh, you know, just being as a social outcast or your phone stops ringing to various different things.

• 1:21:59Tucker Carlson?

  Did you feel that right away?

• 1:22:00Speaker 02

  Almost. I wouldn't say immediately, but it did happen like quite rapidly, a six month, maybe a one year period. Israel was actually the final. straw in particular after is after October 7th I was almost an immediate cutoff from the entire professional network.

• 1:22:13Tucker Carlson?

  Why? What did you say?

• 1:22:15Speaker 02

  Well, I said that I think that the way that Israel was conducting itself in Gaza was not befitting of a civilized Western nation and that the United States didn't have a compelling interest in what was going on there and that we should just focus on ourselves. I said all the same things about Ukraine and many of them agreed with me then. Apparently that was the red line, you know, for them, but

• 1:22:33Tucker Carlson?

  What kind of reaction did you get?

• 1:22:35Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, a lot of it is, you know, calling people in my social circle, asking why I'm so anti Semitic now.

• 1:22:41Tucker Carlson?

  Actually?

• 1:22:43Speaker 02

  Yes. Yeah, no, that actually happened. And a lot of it is also just generally a freeze of communication or discomfort, you know, being in presence. And I think people should hear about this because what I just described, that social capital, when that's everything, this is how those norms are enforced within the system, even if you've never received any money from any of these people, which of course, most of them have. And so you put all of that together and you really watch this like professional nexus and others where you're just almost immediately rejected from like the inner sanctums of the Imperium. But I mean, something that traces back to like wanting to go independent was this knowledge that outside of the Imperium are all of these other rising, you know, almost revolutionary

• 1:23:24Speaker 02

  forces of the Joe Rogan podcast, Dave Smith, Daryl Cooper, Andrew Schultz, Theo Von, all of these individuals. By the way, many of the comedians I listed don't even consider themselves political, but it's because they're not connected to the system that they're able to say and observe truths that nobody in professional comedy or Hollywood connected comedy or any of these other would ever dare, you know, be able to even give a voice to these types of ideas. And so I chose the latter, you know, over the former.

• 1:23:52Tucker Carlson?

  What did you think of the, so I know all the people you just mentioned, I think so much of every one of those people, I'd add Tim Dillon to that list.

• 1:23:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course, Tim.

• 1:23:59Tucker Carlson?

  Wonderful person, but um. The now I'm being bitchy. I can't control myself. The quality of the people. So you get expelled from you. You leave, but you're also shunned by your former world. You enter this new world that includes all the people you just listed. How would you compare the quality of the people?

• 1:24:18Speaker 02

  It's night and day difference. And if we disagree, they're just don't care. There's no, you know, professional freeze out. There's no, you know, there's not as many hard feelings.

• 1:24:27Tucker Carlson?

  There's a You can look right in Dave Smith's face and say, the things you just said that you believe so deeply, I think are stupid. And he'd still go to dinner with you.

• 1:24:35Speaker 02

  Of course he would. I disagree with Dave on a lot. Mostly on economics. I don't think he cares at all. You know, he talks all the time. Yeah. And that's, that's a really important point, right? Is that the verboten issues and the enforcement of all of that is part of why a lot of these people have found this tremendous amount of success that they have. And that's, that is what still gives me some hope about where we are.

• 1:24:56Tucker Carlson?

  I totally agree that there, you know, I believe in God and I do think that there's like an upside, you know, you go through suffering, but there's always like a redemptive quality to it. And in this specific case, like you find the new people, you know, you do lose friends. Have you lost friends?

• 1:25:12Speaker 02

  Yes, unfortunately, yes.

• 1:25:13Tucker Carlson?

  Me too. And I still am sad about it. But boy, the people you meet are like the most honest, interesting, decent, like the quality, I'm sorry to reduce it to this, but the quality of the marriages among the people, you know, who are telling the truth versus the quality of the people who are paid to lie or who are too afraid to tell the truth. Boy, this have just happier people, just better people.

• 1:25:36Speaker 02

  Of course. Well, I mean, what kind of person who, who has small children at home would want to leave them for four out of five nights a week to attend book party events?

• 1:25:45Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 1:25:46Speaker 02

  I mean, and to drink five or six nights a week. I mean, this is literally the life that a lot of these people live.

• 1:25:50Tucker Carlson?

  And if you're a cog in a machine and you're like, having Mark Levin on night after night, even though everyone knows it's like absurd, how can your wife respect you?

• 1:25:59Speaker 02

  I don't know. Yeah. Or getting up at 3:30 AM in the morning. I'm sure you used to in the morning show gig and having to read from the prepared packet for yourself. You know, good luck, honey. I hope the kids are okay in the morning. And then, you know, reducing your life to all of that. For what, for what purpose?

• 1:26:14Tucker Carlson?

  No, it's totally right.

• 1:26:15Speaker 02

  You know, and these are mechanical, but they're macro and important issues.

• 1:26:18Tucker Carlson?

  Nicely put. Yeah. So I want to ask you about the politics of all this because I feel like so it is, what's the date? Monday, July 7. Things are moving so fast. That, you know, who knows where it will be when this airs, which I hope is soon. But as of this morning, Elon Musk is out there using the cover up that Pam Bondi is so clearly engaged in to disgraceful disgraceful cover up.

• 1:26:46Tucker Carlson?

  And I like Pam Bondi personally, but I'm ashamed as an American to see what they're doing. He's using that to say, hey, we need a new political party. Like everyone's involved in the Epstein cover up, which is true. We need an America party and I'm running it.

• 1:27:04Tucker Carlson?

  Where does this, is he serious? Where does this go?

• 1:27:06Speaker 02

  I filed it with the FEC. I would give some caution to Elon. Tucker, you and I have seen a lot of rich people come and go in Washington.

• 1:27:13Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:27:13Speaker 02

  Consultancy, you come in from a mile away, Mr. Fiscally conservative, socially liberal. I'm just gonna put that out there. The bipartisan policy center and all these other people, they've rolled up that entire market. They have plenty to sell you. PowerPoints about ranked choice voting and a few other things and all that. So for all of them, I wish you the best of luck because you're all about to get filthy rich off of Elon.

• 1:27:35Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, can you explain a little bit? So I'm from DC, so I know what you're talking about. But for people who aren't, what exactly are you saying?

• 1:27:41Speaker 02

  Well, I'm saying that there is a long fetishized idea of an American third party, which is fiscally conservative, which is socially liberal, which is moderate on immigration and which is very comfortable with oligarchy and that those forces are extremely well funded and they have a lot of research which could back up whatever your proclivities are and they will happily sell it to you for 10 times market price and sit with presentations to convince you that this is a great idea. And actually, I mean, the irony is if Elon's politics were more reversed in this sense, I actually think he would be on to something. So my belief is that both of the parties actually do have not answers directly, but directionally to this fundamental problems of our age.

• 1:28:25Speaker 02

  Immigration, and I think the Republican Party, obviously, is solid or has come a long way on the issue of, at least the base, let's say that.

• 1:28:31Tucker Carlson?

  The voters.

• 1:28:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, the voters on the issue of immigration from the gang of eight party rebellion to where we are today. And immigration, I still Believe is one of the most central important issues of our time. But let's put the other side and we can take this one big, beautiful bill as an example. We increased the defense budget by 150 billion. Now, I will not get into the actual specific Medicaid cuts, but I think it's everything in Washington is about priority. So we extended the tax cuts from the TCG or Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017. The vast majority of that benefit largely accrues to people who are already rich. Most of that in particular accrues either to the, you know, the high W2 income earner. Uh, I saw somebody point out correctly that most of those people are Democrats.

• 1:29:14Speaker 02

  So it's a little bit ironic, you know, if you're just thinking purely in terms of politics. We didn't have any interest in closing the carried interest loophole. We didn't have any interest in, in looking at the step up basis and looking at financialization and there's so many areas. Tens of bill, hundreds of billions of dollars ripe for the taking without having to touch a single benefit to an American citizen. And instead, we started and instead rewrote the way that Medicaid and food stamp programs are going to work, which could potentially impact tens of millions of Americans. Now, again, I think there's legitimate criticisms around work requirements and welfare and all that. I don't necessarily criticize that as opposed to this fetishization that I saw from GOP congressmen. Who were like, yeah, it's good that people are going to lose their healthcare. And I said, look, whether these people are working or not, it's not good that anybody loses healthcare.

• 1:29:59Speaker 02

  And so that's what I mean about where if Elon's politics were flipped, I think the Democrats, at least rhetorically, do have correct focus on issues like healthcare and around, or at very, at the very least, the way that our economy is structured. Now they may not mean it and I don't think they mean it in practice, but at least rhetorically. So if you were to marry those three issues about immigration restriction, about focus on quality of life, cost of living, healthcare, and also just broadly about restructuring our economy for productive purposes that distributes not through socialism, but through a well-ordered and a well-regulated capitalism that distributes the benefit across all sectors of our society. Now that's an America party I could get on board with.

• 1:30:41Tucker Carlson?

  Totally.

• 1:30:42Speaker 02

  But there's no funding for that, right?

• 1:30:43Tucker Carlson?

  No, if someone got up and said, I'd like an economy where you don't have to hire an illegal alien to raise your kids. Your wife can stay home and raise your kids if she wants to. And most women do want to for the period when they're little. I mean, most women want that and every survey shows that. So if you were to say that, in other words, if you were to respond to the desire of the majority. Probably be shot to death.

• 1:31:06Tucker Carlson?

  Like, it's better to raise your kids than to work in a bank?

• 1:31:09Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:31:09Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, right wing extremism, you know, let's just seal the borders till we figure out who's here and restore meaning to citizenship. What racist? Maybe we should stop giving billions in aid to the, you know, stop trying to run the world when we're not good at it all and just preserve our, our fundamental national interests. Ah, isolationist, Nazi, anti Semite. It's like.

• 1:31:33Speaker 02

  Or in socialist, when we talk about healthcare.

• 1:31:34Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I, um, I do feel like there's a huge opportunity for someone who would talk like that.

• 1:31:43Speaker 02

  That's a real America party. I mean, in, in his, at his best, the 2016 Donald Trump campaign was what I just talked about. I did not recognize it at the time. I was telling you yesterday, that election night broke every, every political conception and idea.

• 1:31:56Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, man.

• 1:31:57Speaker 02

  Which is the best thing that ever happened to me because it allowed me to free my mind, to read all of these other people who I had never considered, who I was told were illegitimate, you know, within professional Washington. And what it came to the conclusion and said professional Washington is illegitimate and has no idea what allegedly its own voters.

• 1:32:11Tucker Carlson?

  Why did so few people do? I had the same experience and but, um, which it was hard for me because I've been there for so long, but it was so liberating and I'm grateful for it and I'm grateful to Trump for that. But why did so few people do that?

• 1:32:23Speaker 02

  Because asking those questions, yes, you know, that is not, asking those questions and coming to what I think are the right conclusions about our economy and about this restructuring of our entire political base. I mean, the way that voting patterns over the last decade have changed is unbelievable. And when you actually answer a lot of those questions, you come to them that are very, you know, inconvenient for the empire. You know, the empire currently runs on cheap labor, um, which is immigration related. It runs on war abroad, you know, military industrial complex, if you want to call it. But all of these foreign entanglements and, and pushing billions of dollars, you know, to policing the ends of the earth, something that the, I always want to come to, the architects of the American empire, General Eisenhower and General Marshall, General Eisenhower

• 1:33:08Speaker 02

  in particular, said it would be a failure if American legions acted as Roman that were deployed to. The vast ends of the earth policing it. His vision for the American empire was to set up well ordered states in Europe and to them, let them handle it from that point forward. General Marshall and others, I mean, yes, they had the Marshall Plan, but the idea was about creating self sufficiency that could allow America, that could return to where things were broadly in more than 1940s environment. But more what I'm saying is that if you look at all of that and you start to speak against it, and what these are what the voters want, you start to come up against the most powerful interests in the world. Healthcare is 20% of our GDP. We have the worst health outcomes in the developed world. That's insane. Why, you know, it's not because our healthcare system is not working all that well.

• 1:33:53Speaker 02

  It comes down to immigration. We talked about cheap labor with war. That's the, you know, foreign governments. It's the ideology of the Imperium, which is all about basically transnational loyalty as opposed to loyalty to your own citizenship and really to your own country. And then broadly about oligarchy. And because when we look at the way, how do you become rich in America today? A few years ago, I went to the Forbes billionaire list and I just restricted the list to the number of new billionaires that were added to that list. The vast majority of those new billionaires in America were people who worked in hedge funds and in finance. And this is why in some ways the left is wrong. They often criticize, they'll often criticize like, let's take Elon as an example. And Elon is a complicated figure, but you know, look, I have a Tesla.

• 1:34:38Speaker 02

  I encourage everybody to get in one at least once because it's like getting an iPhone for, for the first time. It will change your entire conception of what a car is. Now, if people were getting rich, creating an American car company, I would be ecstatic. But that's not what they're getting rich from. They're getting rich from extractive addictive capitalism. Let's say in finance, right? Basically creating, you know, unproductive trading systems, which are only enriching themselves and then rigging our tax code so they pay lower taxes than small business owners, maybe like you or I, or the average person on the street who gets taxed at a higher rate for his labor. Let's take, you know, other examples, like the more, you know, all the companies and so called great companies coming necessarily out of Silicon Valley. You know, the vast majority of that money, as Peter Thiel famously said, you know,

• 1:35:23Speaker 02

  Where promised flying cars, all we got were 140 characters. There is something deeply true about that, about the experience of the technology industry has largely been about extractive capitalism and addiction on our phones and about industries that rely on that as opposed to products that make our lives better and make them.

• 1:35:40Tucker Carlson?

  Boy, they lecture you about that. I have friends in the-

• 1:35:42Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, this, this will ignite a firestorm.

• 1:35:45Tucker Carlson?

  Business who I really like, who I consider so smart and interesting, but, and I guess we all get preachy about what we're doing with our lives. I mean, I get preachy about journalists, we're here to tell the truth.

• 1:35:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:57Tucker Carlson?

  So I'm trying not to be too judgmental. On the other hand, I don't see technology over the past 80 years at, oh, what about antibiotics and the polio vaccine? Okay. But in general, net, net, as we say in the douchebag industry, I, I don't see it as a net plus at all.

• 1:36:15Speaker 02

  I don't see it.

• 1:36:15Tucker Carlson?

  I see it as enslavement and a total disaster. Like it, but you're not, but they're like, what? Technology's making our lives better. Really? Tell me how.

• 1:36:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, let's take, I know you want to talk about sports gambling. It's the perfect example, right? So it's something that's been enabled by the phone and has led, in my opinion, to what is the next opioid epidemic that we will see in the next 10 years. So in 2018, literally just 2018, the Supreme Court reversed a, ruled a decision that restricted sports gambling to the state of Nevada. New Jersey immediately, Chris Christie, by the way, is the person who brought this lawsuit, which legalized his sports gambling. Eventually-

• 1:36:52Tucker Carlson?

  Christie's on the side of sports gambling.

• 1:36:53Speaker 02

  Of course. He was, he was the person who brought the suit. Well, what happens from that point forward?

• 1:36:57Tucker Carlson?

  He is the lowest ever.

• 1:37:00Speaker 02

  Well, you and I are sitting here today in a country where 40, 40 states plus the District of Columbia, sports gambling is legal. You have these sports gambling companies, FanDuel and DraftKings, which basically have legal monopolies from the states, from the gaming commissions of these states, where they are allowed to operate and it's not a free market because of the licensure and the way that it works.

• 1:37:19Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, really?

• 1:37:19Speaker 02

  Yes. Not everybody can just become a gambler.

• 1:37:20Tucker Carlson?

  I want to talk about this, I should say, because I'm totally ignorant of the subject, but I keep hearing from young people who are related to or who work for me about people getting in trouble with sports gambling.

• 1:37:30Speaker 02

  Yes. And so how did this all happen? So in the span of- What it's been seven years since that happened. Forty states are now legal. I just looked it up this morning. Uh, several hundred billion dollars were gambled by Americans in two thousand and twenty-four. Billion? Hundred billion dollars were gambled in twenty twenty-four. The gambling revenue was some fourteen billion dollars. Just the revenue they were able to extract. That is larger than the motion picture industry, the box office industry in the United States of America. The vast majority of that revenue, a study that came out shows, comes from only three percent of gamblers, three percent. And the reason why is that gambling addicts make up almost fifty percent of the revenue. Three percent make up fifty percent because they literally cannot put it down.

• 1:38:10Speaker 02

  And what makes this story even crazier is that FanDuel, DraftKings have the legal right, in the way that they run their business, where Tucker, if you and I were actually good at sports gambling, they would effectively ban us from the platform. They would no longer allow us to place bets larger than, let's say, one dollar and twenty cents. And the reason why is their algorithms are detectable for anybody who is actually gambling smart. And so they immediately will ban you from being able to bet any sizable portion of money. Meanwhile, for those gambling addicts, those three percent, they have an entire VIP host-directed service, where DraftKings and FanDuel shower these people in free gifts. They call them every single day. They basically operate on the phone to make sure that there's no track record, because they're not supposed to do this.

• 1:38:53Speaker 02

  They're not supposed to enable gambling addicts, according to the law. And what they do is they encourage them with free promotions or whatever to keep gambling their entire life savings. More recently, there was a man, I talked about it in my monologue on the subject, who gambled away over a million, I think one point four million dollars. He never made more than two hundred thousand. His wife is suing DraftKings because he gambled away his children's life savings, college accounts, his Christmas gifts, everything. Every, everything that he owned. He'd never gambled before twenty twenty, and he gambled away everything he owned by twenty twenty-four. DraftKings used to call him every single day. They used to say, where, you know, we gotta, what else you got? They violated their own policies according to the lawsuit. According to their lawsuit, uh, the lawsuit brought by the wife, the income, if they tried to verify it, they would have seen that he was using all of these different assets,

• 1:39:37Speaker 02

  which are, you know, obviously not from a W to income, which is apparently violated their policy. They would have seen, as they admit in many cases, he was a gambling addict, and they didn't care. They allowed him to basically gamble away his life savings and not only enabled it, but encouraged it. So. You know what I'm thinking as you're telling me this amazing story? What I'm really afraid of is Sharia law. They hate us for our freedoms, Saagar. They hate us for our freedoms. Sharia's the threat. Maybe they had something going on gambling and but my point. This is so dark. And this is all on your phone. This is on my phone. This is on everybody's phone. It's on almost every young man's phone in America. It's part of the social fabric right now of male culture in the United States. And all of it. And I didn't even get to the craziest part, which is that the bets that they're making are these

• 1:40:21Speaker 02

  things called single game parlay bets, which are basically contingent, multi contingent bets about four or five different things happening because the odds payout is much higher. You will lose with such regularity, like in the state of Illinois, 60% of all bets were that type of bet. Can you give me an example? My ignorance is astounding on this subject, so I just. So I'm not very well versed in sports, but let's say we're watching a football game. We would say that this person is going to rush more than 200 yards. The quarterback will score two touchdowns and at the, at the end of the second half, the Packers will be up by seven. So you would bet that. And so your payout on a $5 bet could be $1,000. And that's why it's very attractive. But what people don't understand is that it's priced that way, that $5 for 1,000, because you're almost certainly not going to hit it.

• 1:41:06Speaker 02

  And that's the vast, vast majority of the bets that Americans are making today because it's fun. But my point around the fun is that the gambling addicts are the only people who enable your fun. And if you're actually any good at this, you'll get banned. It's a totally unfair marketplace. How can they ban? Well, that's totally, and Vegas is the same way, by the way. Vegas is the same way. Well, how they back off people who are good at card counting. That's where the custom, what was legacy granted into the sports gambling houses comes from. Regulators don't care about any of this and legislators. Why? Because they're getting filthy rich revenues off of this from the state. But my contention is if you look at the social cost of every single state where sports gambling has been legalized, we've seen an increase in bankruptcy, particularly young, young

• 1:41:52Speaker 02

  men. We've seen a rise in domestic violence, intimate partner violence, largely when bets lose. So a man's bet will lose and he'll take it out on his wife or the kids that are in the house. It's horrible. Seen a actually statistically significant rise, almost directly as a result of sports gambling. We are watching the social costs of our brother, our cousin, or whatever, go bankrupt or lose hundreds of dollars, get normalized into this environment of taking like insane risks, which you don't even really understand. It's getting enmeshed. If you go to any bar in America during a sports game, you'll find somebody there with their phone. And if you're talking to them, they've got money on every play of the game. They'll be like, oh, I had $20 that he would, you know,

• 1:42:33Speaker 02

  throw a touchdown in the very first quarter. Soon they're rolling out products which make it so that you can bet like every single play of the game. And they're doing it live. So you can do it there all on your phone. I mean, that's basically, to me, that's an emblem of where we have become, what we have become as a country. We use a smartphone as an addictive platform to enable one of the worst vices that we've always recognized in American history. And my solution is simple is, okay, it's not fair that Nevada had sports gambling. Let's just make it in person. We have to introduce friction into the system. We do that for alcohol. We do that for cigarettes. By the way, cigarette companies are not allowed to sponsor and spend billions of dollars in advertising at the Super Bowl and pair up with professional sports betting leagues. You know, I've spoken with professional athletes, NFL athletes,

• 1:43:18Speaker 02

  who told me they have faced harassment from people who lost bets because of them. They'll be like, hey, the kicker, you idiot, you didn't make that. And I had $1,000, you know, on some. It's ruining the game. The gambling companies and the leagues are coming together.

• 1:43:35Speaker 02

  Tens of millions of Americans are borderline addicted right now. Hundreds of millions are actually making bets. And all of this is just like a sleeping social revolution in the country where parlay betting and the lingo that used to be known to, you know, the most degenerate guy who lives in Vegas is now common parlance, you know, in the, in, in American culture. And people call you nanny state or any of that. I just said, I don't even oppose necessarily the ability to sports gamble. I just think we should treat it like any other vice and make it so that you have to gamble in person.

• 1:44:06Tucker Carlson?

  Just say it's disgusting.

• 1:44:08Speaker 02

  I think it is disgusting.

• 1:44:08Tucker Carlson?

  And predatory. And by the way, they're praying as the crypto people do. Sorry. On the frustration and sadness of young men who know they're never going to be able to afford a wife, kids and a house.

• 1:44:19Speaker 02

  Exactly. And that's, they sell you the dream. All the, all the advertisements are, you can get rich with your knowledge. And as I just said, if you actually do get rich, they'll just ban you, or if you have the potential to.

• 1:44:29Tucker Carlson?

  Business wasn't always this sleazy in the United States. There were self-restraints. I mean, I've never been that into business or never participated in business, actually, in my whole life. But, so what do I know? But I have been here a while and I remember people had, like, there was a feeling, well, that's just wrong. We're not going to do that.

• 1:44:44Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:44:44Tucker Carlson?

  Taking advantage of people was bad.

• 1:44:47Speaker 02

  Well, there was a social.

• 1:44:48Tucker Carlson?

  Poor people, like payday loan was a really sleazy business, charging 30% interest on a credit card. But, I mean, you, your neighbors would judge you.

• 1:44:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. And they should. But that's the problem with the collapse of social trust is that there's not a lot of policing.

• 1:45:01Tucker Carlson?

  Totally amoral predators took control of our society at every level.

• 1:45:05Speaker 02

  That's exactly right. And now the government is in league with them. They're grant, it'll be legal in almost all 50 states, probably by the end of the decade. And all of this will lead to mass bankruptcy, like I said, all the social attendant costs of this. But I think more importantly, it shows, when you have that collapse of social enforcement within your society, you can just see how rap, I'm talking about a seven-year period. This is not long ago that this was even not a thing, that we went to bigger than the motion picture industry. And you and I are talking before football season, all forecasts say that DraftKings and FanDuel will make more money this year than they have ever made before. And 2024 to 2023 was already a 23% rise.

• 1:45:46Tucker Carlson?

  Why are people paying their gambling debts?

• 1:45:48Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah.

• 1:45:48Tucker Carlson?

  Why are people paying their credit card bills? I don't understand. I mean, it's like so one-sided. It's like, you're a college student and you get credit card offers, free credit cards, and you get lured into something like this. You get destroyed by it, but you still have to pay your debts.

• 1:46:03Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:46:04Tucker Carlson?

  So it's all upside for them. And then people wag their finger in your face, so like, oh, you a communist? Am I a communist? No, no, I'm not. Um, if you say like, why, why would you pay your debts? Why would you ever?

• 1:46:16Speaker 02

  It's user

• 1:46:17Tucker Carlson?

  Pay off, it is, and they're the ones who should be ashamed.

• 1:46:21Speaker 02

  Not just ashamed, our legislators should do something about it.

• 1:46:23Tucker Carlson?

  I really do want to start a political party, don't pay your credit card bill. Do not pay your gambling debts. I really do.

• 1:46:30Speaker 02

  It'd be a general strike against, or student loan, honestly.

• 1:46:34Tucker Carlson?

  But whenever, but what they do, and it's the same people, they take the frustration, the people who are benefiting from DraftKings and Citibank, they take the frustration that people feel the stupid new mayor of New York, and they move it into like race hate. They basically take that momentum and they shift it into a safe direction. Like just hate each other on the basis of the way you look.

• 1:46:58Speaker 02

  Yes, of course.

• 1:46:59Tucker Carlson?

  And that's very safe for their, for their backers. But I'm just waiting for the guy who's like, no, no, the real criminals are the ones who are loaning you money at 30% interest, or getting you to go bankrupt on a sports gambling app. Like, those are the villains. Why don't we go after them?

• 1:47:15Speaker 02

  I agree. I've been waiting.

• 1:47:17Tucker Carlson?

  Will you run for president on the don't pay your credit card bill? And I will send you money.

• 1:47:21Speaker 02

  Well, I've been waiting for somebody. I talked with a guy who's an expert on the history of political parties. And he said, you know, one of the most popular issues that I think that would resonate is banning people, employers who schedule closing shift and opening shift. It's called clooping, right? Like people who have to work until midnight and wake up at 6 a.m. A lot of these are the most precarious people in our economy, who are basically screwed around with by their employers, getting paid minimum wage, and feel the deep frustration of no power in their lives from financial institutions to their employers. He's like, I genuinely think just an issue like that would resonate so deeply. And then I started thinking, I go, why? Is that not even a thing? And I go, oh, well, it's because most people in Washington don't even know about the term that I just used.

• 1:48:05Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 1:48:05Speaker 02

  And it's about the everyday life of somebody who is worried about

• 1:48:11Speaker 02

  Being able to buy a house, I mean, let's even put buying a house out of that. That's the American dream. I'm talking about, let's just making rent. I'm talking about, you know, being able to fill up your car. I mean, a large percentage of this country is a blown tire away from bankruptcy.

• 1:48:25Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, I know.

• 1:48:25Speaker 02

  A literal blown tire away from complete bankruptcy. Economic precarity to a level which is shameful, you know, whenever we have the, you know, richest country in human history. And, you know, you talked about Zoron and what I really appreciated is, look, we don't like Zoron. I'm not pro Zoron.

• 1:48:42Tucker Carlson?

  I get it.

• 1:48:42Speaker 02

  But when he says, hey, I'm just worried about the rent and I don't care about Israel because I'm going to stay here in New York.

• 1:48:49Tucker Carlson?

  I loved it.

• 1:48:50Speaker 02

  How, I loved it too. That's what, all we need. That's what all people really want. I remember when Trump first term withdrew from Paris and he said, I was elected to be the president of Pittsburgh, not Paris. And I was like, wow.

• 1:49:02Tucker Carlson?

  So that's the problem with the Epstein thing. The problem with DOJ decision yesterday to cover up the crimes of Epstein, which they are doing, is that it leaves people at the very end of their electoral options. It's like, I voted for this guy, and I'll speak for myself, I voted for this guy precisely because I'm really distressed. I want justice. I want honesty. I think secrecy, I bet's evil. I want someone to focus on my country, like all the basic things. And I think Trump wants all those things too. But if you, when you allow something like this to happen, people are like, you know what? The system itself is beyond reform. There's no reasonable step I can take to improve this country or my own life. I have to do something crazy.

• 1:49:44Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:49:45Tucker Carlson?

  Like you're creating true radicalism when you do stuff like this. Because what's the option?

• 1:49:50Speaker 02

  Well, that's why, in a way, I want to hold a lot of these leaders to a higher standard is because if you're elected on that message and you betray that message, in my opinion, you're more culpable than, let's say, the idiots like George W. Bush and others.

• 1:50:02Tucker Carlson?

  Big time.

• 1:50:03Speaker 02

  Who really believed it, right? They believed, they destroyed our country.

• 1:50:06Tucker Carlson?

  I agree.

• 1:50:07Speaker 02

  But they, at the very least, they didn't lie to us as much about wanting to address the very problems that they created. But when you have people like Obama, Biden and Trump, who are elected right now on the backs of fixing. The most catastrophic presidency probably in American history, George W. Bush. But then to return to many, or in many cases, even go further and not actually address those. I think you're very culpable in that and you reap what you sow. I mean, you said you're, you're not a radical. I'm, I'm similar in disposition. Like, I don't want to see mass violence or any of these other-

• 1:50:42Tucker Carlson?

  Well, you're a married father. And you're like, I am too. Totally vested in the future of the country.

• 1:50:47Speaker 02

  Exactly. I don't want that to happen.

• 1:50:49Tucker Carlson?

  No!

• 1:50:49Speaker 02

  But as an analyst or as somebody familiar with history, somebody who has an audience and can pick up on social trends. People are mad as hell right now. They are angry.

• 1:50:59Tucker Carlson?

  Too mad.

• 1:51:00Speaker 02

  Angry.

• 1:51:00Tucker Carlson?

  Too mad. No, I agree. I'm, I'm legit, that Epstein thing, it's not even about Epstein. I can live, I think I know what the Epstein thing was. Everybody knows what it was. Um, I think you porn is the same thing.

• 1:51:15Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:51:15Tucker Carlson?

  They're collecting information to blackmail people on you porn. Do you think a foreign government doesn't have access to the backend of you porn? I think, I think they do. And so I get it. I understand, you know, everyone knows what's up. But to insult the population by saying, no, you're a conspiracy theorist. It's like, I think you're really playing with fire when you do that.

• 1:51:37Speaker 02

  Especially when you said the conspiracy and then now revert to the line.

• 1:51:42Tucker Carlson?

  It's too much. It's too much.

• 1:51:43Speaker 02

  That is too much.

• 1:51:44Tucker Carlson?

  Do you know, I mean, can you call Pam Bondi and say, I think Pam Bondi's under a ton of pressure. Again, I've always liked Pam Bondi. I know her. I think she's under enormous pressure. I, you know, I don't know how good she is under pressure. Trying to be nice, but, uh, I don't think that she's like a sinister person who is, you know, doing the work of Leon Black and Ehud Barak on purpose, really. But I, I wonder if they know this is a real thing here.

• 1:52:12Speaker 02

  They have to know. And, and the reason why I think they have to know is that the breadcrumbs that got us to this moment have already been sprinkled. Cash Patel testified and said it was suicide. Went on the Joe Rogan podcast and said, if I had that information, don't you think I would tell you? He killed himself. I mean, that was, basically this was an enshrinement of many of the things that they already put out there. That and the criticism and really the outrage over each of those individual comments. Let's say the so-called Epstein files released with many of the influencers. There was outrage at every step, so they're not stupid.

• 1:52:43Tucker Carlson?

  But how can you say that thousands of children were raped, but I'm not going to find out who raped them?

• 1:52:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:52:49Tucker Carlson?

  How can you say that?

• 1:52:50Speaker 02

  I agree. I agree completely.

• 1:52:51Tucker Carlson?

  They said that. By the way, when Pam Bondi went on television and said, I have a videotape of kids getting abused. I didn't, I follow this case closely and I know a lot of the people involved, as I've told you.

• 1:53:00Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:53:01Tucker Carlson?

  I had no idea. I didn't know that. Really? Thousands of children got raped?

• 1:53:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:06Tucker Carlson?

  Who raped them? Where are the rapists? Like, why aren't they in jail? What? This is the Department of Justice.

• 1:53:11Speaker 02

  Yes. Yes.

• 1:53:12Tucker Carlson?

  That is so crazy. This is like, this is honestly one of the craziest things I've ever seen in my entire life. And I just think it's very dangerous to play around with this stuff, like very dangerous.

• 1:53:25Speaker 02

  Well, it's.

• 1:53:25Tucker Carlson?

  I don't want a revolution, but if you wanted a revolution, this is how you would act.

• 1:53:28Speaker 02

  Yes. Yeah, it is because, I mean, I gave Versailles as an example. When you pick the court over and over again, and the people start to wake up to that, bad things can happen. And this is something that I find really disgusting about American elites is that for a long time, the American republic and the elite system has been one that can actually cycle at least some of the wants and the needs of the American voter to basically placate it and keep it from going down the path of fascism and/or socialism. But when you continue to just double down on the Imperium and on what fuels the empire itself, and you would keep ignoring all of these things. I mean, I do think this bill is an important part of that. Like, we're increasing defense spending. The empire is not even good at what it's supposed to be doing.

• 1:54:11Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 1:54:11Speaker 02

  It's causing chaos abroad. The military industrial complex is not even good at creating weapons or ammunition. The global financial system has been revealed as a complete ruse. We sanctioned Russia to death. Remember? We said that they will never rise. Their economy grew and they were able to increase more ammunition.

• 1:54:27Tucker Carlson?

  I tried to tell that story and I went to the Soviet, or Soviet Russian grocery store to, not because I want to live in Russia, though it's really nice, but to point out that like, everything you said was going to happen, didn't happen.

• 1:54:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're doing fine. And what's the lesson in that? That you know, the ability to produce the goods that you need, the ability to produce the energy and to at least have a few allies who also reject the Western global financial system is all you need now to stand against the American empire. I think that was actually one of the most important things that has ever happened because we threw it all at Russia over the most insignificant conflict involving the United States. And what has China been doing now for the last five years? Just studying, they've since Ukraine, they have been studying

• 1:55:08Tucker Carlson?

  this. And we did it because a small group of foreign policy and government officials deeply care about Ukraine. They really care about Ukraine. Okay, that's great. I deeply care about Sweden. You maybe deeply care about India. Yeah, but you're not driving our foreign poli- you know, they care about Ukraine for whatever reason. But they're imposing that on a country 350 million people. Like, are you joking? You can't do that.

• 1:55:35Speaker 02

  It humiliated us really in the eyes of most of our adversaries.

• 1:55:38Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, I'm aware.

• 1:55:39Speaker 02

  Because the day that Russia can increase its GDP and can increase its ammunition more than all of NATO while subject to the most devastating sanctions supposedly in the history of the United States, that shows that it's all fake. And then that's Russia.

• 1:55:53Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, I agree.

• 1:55:53Speaker 02

  Which is much smaller and less much of a threat to the United States, let's say, than any other country in the world. And all those other countries are studying this with the, you know, with a fine tooth comb to sanction proof themselves. So when the time comes that we're really affected, and this affects me and you and my kid or your kids, that we're gonna have a real problem.

• 1:56:12Tucker Carlson?

  I couldn't agree more. And to spend a trillion dollars on something that's not working. I mean, I guess of all the money you could spend spending on the military, decent people in the military, some good, really good people.

• 1:56:21Speaker 02

  Well, if it actually went to them, they'd be fine. But it's not, as you and I know.

• 1:56:24Tucker Carlson?

  I read the other day, this analysis from someone I know who's really smart. And it was, and the question was, will the United States use nuclear bunker busters in Iran? Okay, so that would, for many reasons, be, you know, the first time nuclear weapons have been used in 80 years, kind of a big deal. So I don't think anyone wants that particular Rubicon to be crossed. So I, I was like, wow, I wonder if that's gonna happen. So I call around. And the answer I got, which I think is true. We don't have any nuclear bunker busters. And because we're not good at building anything, we're not going to have them for quite some time. Now, I haven't verified that, but I got that. I mean, I think that's true. That's insane. Now, I don't want to use nuclear bunker busters at all.

• 1:57:07Tucker Carlson?

  And apparently it was George W. Bush who said we shouldn't. So there's a rare win for the Bush team. Thank you, George W. Bush. But if that's true, you spend a trillion dollars and you don't even have a nuclear bunker buster?

• 1:57:20Speaker 02

  I mean, that's the least of our problems. We don't have basic ammunition.

• 1:57:22Tucker Carlson?

  No, I'm aware. It's like the level of dysfunction is so overwhelming that, and that's the military, which you gotta assume is more functional than, say, the Department of Transportation, or Energy, or Commerce, or Interior. It's like, gotta be one of the most functional departments. At least they actually pass a marksmanship test occasionally.

• 1:57:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:57:41Tucker Carlson?

  Then things are really in disarray, and we actually need reform.

• 1:57:45Speaker 02

  Yes, like immediate reform, because, I mean, I just think, I don't know, I've almost come to the conclusion, it's like, we're either gonna have to hit a financial crisis or a war. That's really the only time anything changes.

• 1:57:57Tucker Carlson?

  So what, where do things go politically?

• 1:58:00Speaker 02

  A lot of that depends on Donald Trump and how he handles his meeting with Prime Minister Netanyahu and the next coming years. Because, and this is why I was so concerned about Iran, and I think you were too. And also why the people crowing victory, in my opinion, will look stupid, is we, and I listened to your entire interview with the President of Iran. It's a very important interview, at the very least, because whether he means it or not, he's trying to telegraph for peace. And not only trying to telegraph for peace, naming Israel as the prime provocateur, wanting better relations here with the United States of America, but also concerned about the fact that, at least according to our President, diplomacy was at least used in some way, either afterwards taken credit for, or at least the perspective was given, it was used as a ruse,

• 1:58:44Speaker 02

  which will undermine our ability to future negotiate. Let's say you are Iran, which, in my opinion, what I took away from this is despite all of the, their genocidal terrorists who want to kill us all, they acted highly rationally. They only struck Israel. They fired 14 bases, you know, at the, at the US, 14 missiles at the US base. They gave us preemptive notice. They immediately then called it off, willing to sign a ceasefire. He seemed, at the very least, his ability to telegraph rationality in his interview with you. What I take away from that, then, is rationally, if you are the country of Iran... And you look at the history now and the context in which this has now happened. I don't see how 30 years from now, we either don't have an actual nuclear armed Iran or regime change.

• 1:59:28Speaker 02

  Because every single time, let's even look at Israel's operations. In 1981, I'm sure you remember, Israel took out Iraq's nuclear program, or at least severely damaged it. A reactor, yes. A reactor. Now that was sold as, it was a one-time operation. By the way, do you remember that the Reagan administration denounced it? And we actually paused shipments, I believe of F-14s to the country. Why? Because we saw it as an outrageous move, which was destabilizing relations. Ronald Reagan, everybody, you know, not some known anti-Semite, but of course, we're not allowed to know our history. The point, though, is that that preemptive strike in 1981, did it stop the United States from invading Iraq in 2003 for an operation in regime change sold on the lie of WMD?

• 2:00:12Speaker 02

  The point is, is that it actually hardened Saddam's resolve to at least create the impression of having nuclear weapons. And for a time, actually amassing other so-called weapons of mass destruction. It hardened the, you know, want of Syria in 2007, when they did something similar. If you look at the history here now, of the so-called preemptive strike from Israel, known as the Begin Doctrine, around nuclear weapons in the Middle East, every time there's a strike, eventually it leads to regime change. So Iraq, regime change. Syria, regime change. With Libya, of course, they had all kinds of stuff going on with the Libyan program. Gaddafi did the smart thing, at what he thought at the time, gave up his nuclear weapons. And what happened to him? He was, you know, literally sodomized on camera.

• 2:00:56Speaker 02

  It was, what, eight years later, by the United States of America? So, the history of that in the region should really, I mean, you have to be very stupid not to look at every single one of those instances and say, "Yeah, I don't know about whether dealing with the United States and/or Israel here in this context is one that I can trust. In fact, I should probably just go get a nuclear weapon." Let's take the only member of the axis of evil today that's never been bombed by the United States of America, North Korea. I saw a book about Kim Jong-un behind you, ill behind you, and- I've recently had this theory. I'm like, is Kim Jong Il one of the most vindicated men in history? He was seen as an insane person. Remember the movies and his liquor?

• 2:01:36Tucker Carlson?

  Very well, yeah.

• 2:01:37Speaker 02

  Um, his fundamental insight in 2002 was, no, we can, we don't trust these people. We have to sprint to a nuke. We're getting the H-bomb. We're testing underground. We will establish a credible nuclear deterrent. He dies and his son immediately pours all state resources into creating an ICBM and a critical, a credible nuclear threat to the United States of America capable of hitting the United States homeland. And he, in my opinion, my belief is Kim Jong Un will die of natural causes in his own bed because of that decision. That is the only way to assure that the United States will not mess with you. And now, actually, what Israel has created is a situation where the highly

• 2:02:17Speaker 02

  rational, you know, the highly rational decision, after your entire military infrastructure has been, you know, infiltrated by Mossad, you've watched with impunity, you've seen diplomats be used as ruse. I don't see how we can't either go down the regime change path again and/or have a nuclear Iran. Now, on top of this, of course, is Israeli action. Prime Minister Netanyahu, according to Jerusalem Post, which is, you know, an Israeli media outlet, they write that Prime Minister Netanyahu, one of the chief things he wants to secure from President Trump is the ability to conduct preemptive strikes anytime he wants on the Iranian nuclear program, which of course we were told was destroyed. If it was destroyed, I'm not sure why we need more preemptive strikes. But he wants a rolling green light

• 2:02:59Speaker 02

  for the future to be able to go in and take any things out at the time, which of course would only harden the strategic resolve of that country.

• 2:03:06Tucker Carlson?

  But it can't be done alone.

• 2:03:09Speaker 02

  Of course not, which they proved. They actually proved that to us when they said, we need you to come in and finish the job.

• 2:03:14Tucker Carlson?

  Well, and to protect our homeland from ballistic missiles raining down on our cities. So, any Israeli, and by the way, I come at this, I feel like you have to say it because you don't want to be called a bigot again, but like, just in general, I approve of and certainly understand every country's obligation to act in its own interest, including defensively.

• 2:03:35Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:03:36Tucker Carlson?

  So, I'm not even contesting Israel's right to be worried about Iran. They probably should be. However...

• 2:03:42Tucker Carlson?

  Every strike by Israel on Iran, by definition, requires the involvement of the US military.

• 2:03:48Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 2:03:49Tucker Carlson?

  So, we're getting signed up for an endless war with Iran.

• 2:03:54Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 2:03:55Tucker Carlson?

  And at that point, it's like, no, this is my country.

• 2:03:58Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:03:58Tucker Carlson?

  No! But, like, I'm getting, now I'm getting too far. This is what I was saying about radicalism. This is the kind of thing that could make you radical, right?

• 2:04:08Speaker 02

  Yes, and it's bad for us, and it's also bad for them. I mean, let's take the April operation. A lot of people forget this. Why did Iran, in April of 2024, launch all those ballistic missiles at Israel? It's because Israel bombed an Iranian embassy in the middle of Syria. Now, according to them, it was an IRGC Command Center. Maybe. Um, I would say there are CIA officers present in every US embassy in the world, so I don't particularly want to open up that bag of worms. I think there's spies in literally every diplomatic mission, including in Washington, which probably crossed paths with many of those. I don't think those are legitimate targets, nor should they be. We shouldn't open that up.

• 2:04:47Speaker 02

  Well, it was because of that action that they knew would invite an Iranian response, that Iran then launched those ballistic missiles against Israel. But who shot down all those missiles?

• 2:04:55Tucker Carlson?

  You're allowed to bomb people's embassies?

• 2:04:57Speaker 02

  Yes, that's, well, according to them, as long as you designated a terrorist, you know, base by your own definition, I don't even know if the United States ever actually technically signed off on that analysis, you're able to do that.

• 2:05:08Tucker Carlson?

  There have to be some limits, mutually agreed upon limits to behavior. You can't just shoot someone for pissing you off.

• 2:05:14Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:05:15Tucker Carlson?

  Okay? You can't shoot up churches, including the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, and you can't bomb embassies, or else your embassies and your churches, or your synagogues, or your mosques, or whatever, they're all fair game. And like, do you want to live in that world?

• 2:05:26Speaker 02

  Right, it would be rightfully denounced as terrorism if that were done.

• 2:05:29Tucker Carlson?

  There's got to be some limit. What's the limit?

• 2:05:30Speaker 02

  And even more big than that, what I said at the time was, one of the reasons I didn't want us to defend Israel is I know that if they didn't think that the US would come in and defend them, then they never would have done it in the first place. Is that it would have restricted their freedom of action and the freedom of action of the Iranians, and the most likely outcome between that was probably some sort of diplomatic solution, if they were. Actually forced to deal with this problem on their own terms without the big brother United States, or at the very least, the big brother, United States, equally distributed to both parties in regards to trying to bring peace and balance to the region. But it's our unending and unquestioning support which enables Israeli belligerent action in the region, which then invites

• 2:06:11Speaker 02

  blowback both on them, but also on us. Okay, I lived during the 12 day war with the United States government warning me about terrorist attacks in my homeland. That is like 2005 red terror levels. Remember flying back then?

• 2:06:25Tucker Carlson?

  Very well.

• 2:06:26Speaker 02

  And, and that is a psychological toll on our population, which was literally being done for a foreign country and worrying about every US citizen. There are millions of United States citizens who live abroad, who were told that they had to be careful in going about their daily business in whatever country they happen to be in. Now, let's say that's in response to nine 11. Okay, we can justify that in terms of what the United States is doing after being attacked on our homeland. But for another, as you said, it's too much. It can lead to radicalization. I'm trying to resist that pull. And what I'm trying to do here on my show as well, is to talk all about this in a rational way. That's why I talk about Switzerland and Chile, just to put it in context, who this country is and what we allegedly get out of it. Let's

• 2:07:09Speaker 02

  remove all of the veneer and the, the smears and everything else. And let's just talk in our own terms. And I have found that to be the enemy of the Ukraine discourse, of Israel discourse, of so much of the way that we orient ourselves. I mean, you know, I always think about the Munich Security Conference. What? Why? Why are we obsessed with the Munich Security Conference? Asia is 50% of GDP in 2030. We should be going to the Singapore Security Conference, and that's the only one that actually should matter. But why do they all go to Munich? Oh, because they like Munich. They like Europe. They like going on vacation. A lot of them have studied there. They have this cultural affinity. I get it. I'm not saying that shouldn't matter at all. But, you know, our forward, our forward looking leaders, even back in the 1930s and 40s,

• 2:07:51Speaker 02

  always had a very clear eyed view of the ability to balance what was actually in US strategic interests. And I think we really lost that from the 1990s unipolar moment onwards. And I'm watching it happen again. So, you know, you asked me where this thing goes. It's all basically, it's on Trump and his relationship with Bibi. I think, I actually think he's gambling his entire presidency.

• 2:08:13Tucker Carlson?

  I agree with that.

• 2:08:14Speaker 02

  On all of that right now.

• 2:08:15Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. And, you know, I have no idea what's going to happen. I believe they're meeting as we're speaking. Um, I know them both and I, you know, but I don't know. But I've got to say of all the kind of filthy disasters in the world, the one that I would want to stay away from with the most enthusiasm is Gaza.

• 2:08:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:08:37Tucker Carlson?

  So how is it that it's America's responsibility to unfuck Gaza?

• 2:08:42Speaker 02

  Yes, and that was the plan from day one.

• 2:08:45Tucker Carlson?

  And what's happened in Gaza is, is not defensible. It's, it's too much. I mean, these, Harret said 17,000 children have been killed in Gaza, 17,000. I had to read it twice. They said that. So I, you know, I'm just citing them. There are lots of other estimates, but we'll just go with the Israeli.

• 2:09:00Speaker 02

  No, let's go with the Israeli press, which are often more critical than ours.

• 2:09:03Tucker Carlson?

  Right, exactly. Well, they're way more critical than ours, but um, but let's just go with that. Like I, I think that that's immoral as a Christian. I'm very offended. There were, by the way, Christians among those, uh, killed there. They did nothing wrong.

• 2:09:17Tucker Carlson?

  I'm offended by that, but even if I supported that, which I don't, I would say, I don't, I don't think I want to have anything to do with that. I don't want to be tied to that. Why should I take responsibility for your crime?

• 2:09:28Speaker 02

  President Biden sent his humanitarian aid float show. Remember that costs, costs probably at least a quarter billion dollars. That entire deployment almost did nothing. Currently, American contractors, I'm sure you saw this, are involved in this food aid scheme, which appears to basically just be like, look, I mean, I have to be honest here. It almost seems like a literal trap, like there are hundreds of Palestinians who have literally been killed trying to get food.

• 2:09:51Tucker Carlson?

  Is this the one run by an American evangelical preacher?

• 2:09:54Speaker 02

  I, I believe so. I mean, it's these American contractors and this is set up through the United States government and all these private foundations. And I know this can get difficult. By the way, even talking about this, I recently saw referred to as a literal blood libel is to mention the fact that people who were coming for aid were literally gunned down and murdered. That's supposedly a blood libel, um, against the Jewish people. Like again, remove your rhetoric and let's talk in the realm of facts. Your own newspapers are reporting the fact that hundreds of civilians were killed trying to get aid in Gaza. I'm repeating what your Israeli press is saying. I'm repeating what the independent press is saying, what the. You know, people in Gaza are saying as well, to the extent that there's any independent oversight of this whatsoever. And let's return to the question of, I think, what both of our orientation is,

• 2:10:39Speaker 02

  is this good for our country? I would say no. You can, you know, you can talk in the realm spiritually. I would also just talk in the realm, we can talk in the realm spiritually and like kind of what that means to normalize saying, let's kill children like Congressman Randy Fine or other member who are like openly celebrated and think it's like a good thing. But we can easily talk about what we said about national interest. Is it healthy? Is it normal to be obsessed with the way with defending supposedly the most moral army in the world, when almost every counterterrorism and Iraq war veteran I know would be ashamed to have fought this way in the global war on terror. American troops, look, we made a lot of mistakes, but you cannot

• 2:11:20Speaker 02

  fault the American soldier or the American marine, the American airmen for not, and many times putting their own lives on the line and many losing them to protect Iraqi and Afghan civilians. In fact, often that was a core part of our mission. And they would, you know, look, I don't think it was worth it, but when required, they were willing to do so. And I haven't seen that in the way that this war has been conducted.

• 2:11:44Tucker Carlson?

  I haven't either, but I, I don't understand why we would take responsibility for fixing Gaza. I mean, that's, um, we can't fix Baltimore. What, for real?

• 2:11:56Speaker 02

  You're right. Yeah. Why should we? And this has been the plan from day one. I want, that's what I was, I was gonna say is, remember back in November 2023, even shortly after October 7, Israeli Knesset members and others were writing in the Wall Street Journal, actually, it's the United States that should take in people from Gaza after we expel them, or it's American contractors.

• 2:12:14Tucker Carlson?

  People of Gaza are so dangerous. Every person in Gaza, including the children, they're all terrorists because it's genetic. They've been saying that. It's genetic. What are we even talking about? Like, what kind of, what is this? It's genetic? I can think of a widely discredited political movement in Europe that used to talk like that. It's genetic? Whatever. Anyway. But they're too dangerous to live next to. We can't even have them in the region. You guys.

• 2:12:39Speaker 02

  You guys need to take them.

• 2:12:40Tucker Carlson?

  That is the purest expression of contempt for the United States, I can imagine.

• 2:12:44Speaker 02

  And that was step one. Step two was all of these broad plans about US peacekeepers. Now it's broadly evolved. They're mostly trying to pass it off on the Gulf. But as you and I know, there's no Gulf military that could potentially occupy Gaza. It would, of course, either have to be fully funded by the United States of America, or probably would result in some sort of US troop presence in Jordan, serving as the supply mission with some sort of never-ending deployment that would put people at risk, just like our current occupation in Syria, where we continue to have hundreds of troops for what? If anybody thinks you and I are conspiracy theorists, let's not forget that after this Israeli-backed Al Qaeda takeover of Syria, which was, I guess, US and Israeli-backed Al Qaeda takeover of Syria, that the current, there are current negotiations between the Israeli and US government

• 2:13:29Speaker 02

  right now, this is out in the open, about the United States actually filling in areas of Syria that were taken over by Israel and occupying them as some sort of safe zone between Syria and between Israel. And again, first of all, this is a government supported by Israel, and I guess by the United States now at this point. So why do the troops even need to be there? Also, we were told that we have to stand up against countries seizing territory like Putin and Ukraine. I've literally watched the Greater Israel Project march forward, you know, in the, in the last two years, into Syria, of course, the West Bank, and now with Gaza and the, the expansionist behavior there, which we just don't talk about here at all. It's, it's like.

• 2:14:12Tucker Carlson?

  Seems like a violation of our norms.

• 2:14:14Speaker 02

  I was gonna, it violates every norm that we have about the way that a civilized nation were to conduct itself. It's what we condemn and sanction.

• 2:14:22Tucker Carlson?

  Isn't that why we're fighting Russia?

• 2:14:23Speaker 02

  Exactly. Exactly. And that's where the hypocrisy of it collapses in and of itself. And the only way it's justifiable is earlier what we referred to, this like bastardized Christian and rabbinical theological doctrine. My favorite was the former US Ambassador David Friedman trying to lecture you about Christian theology.

• 2:14:44Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:44Speaker 02

  Right? And if you

• 2:14:45Tucker Carlson?

  Didn't learn that much from

• 2:14:47Speaker 02

  Didn't learn much, right. But it's like, wha- what? And I mean, my final point, actually, on that, too. And as you know, you know, there's probably no more contempt than by a lot of the pro-Zionist movement for the actual Christian evangelicals who, for whatever reason, are so broadly supportive of Israel. They use them as pawn. They laugh at them.

• 2:15:07Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, if they knew.

• 2:15:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, I wish they knew. And I know a lot of them listen to you.

• 2:15:10Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:10Speaker 02

  I hope

• 2:15:11Tucker Carlson?

  Nice people, good people.

• 2:15:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, you know, if you go, if you ever go to Israel, probably 80% of the flight is gonna be people from Alabama, or, you know, from all across the American South.

• 2:15:20Tucker Carlson?

  World's nicest people, yes.

• 2:15:21Speaker 02

  Who are going to the holy city, which is great, you know, that's awesome. But while they're there, they're subjected to all of this end times propaganda about why it's so important to support the state. And I think what's really sick is that the government, the Israeli government, uses them as political pawns in our country, when secretly, they have nothing but contempt and laugh at them. About, oh, they're like, oh, look at these, you know, gross people in our streets, or any of that. There's no actual appreciation.

• 2:15:47Tucker Carlson?

  I remember asking Benjamin Netanyahu, I mean, over 20 years ago, when, um, you know, terrorists were occupying the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, which is the city in which Jesus was born. So it's, you know, arguably the most important church in Christendom, and the IDF shot fired into the church, killed, I think, a bell ringer, um, I think may have killed a monk. Anyway, killed Christians in a Christian church, in a Christian city, formerly, it's no longer a Christian city, thanks to its occupation, but, um, and I just, and I was totally for Israel. I've never been against Israel, actually, which is the hilarious part, but, um, I remember saying to him, like, "You're using American weapons to fire into the Church of the Nativity?"

• 2:16:31Tucker Carlson?

  This was on CNN at the time, and boy, it was like, "Were you an anti-Semi?" "No." "I don't, I don't want to fire into the Church of the Nativ-" Like, how is that okay?

• 2:16:43Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:16:44Tucker Carlson?

  And why does everyone think it's okay? It's not okay.

• 2:16:46Speaker 02

  It's not okay. Uh, and it's, I mean, we were talking yesterday about, in the, um, you know, the, the recent settler violence that happened against these Christian vil- I mean, part of why I feel upset about this is not just about the, you know, we, rightfully, if you're a Christian, you should also care about other Christians, but it's like, guys, this is just a normal behavior in the, in the way that they act in this region and supported by the Israeli government. Now, again, uh, as somebody who cares about my own country, it would all be- Bad things happen all over the world. That's a fact of life. But we, us funding them, it becoming a major political issue in our country. Unfortunately, you're turning people like us who, I don't, look, I nev- Israel was never my number one issue.

• 2:17:27Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 2:17:28Speaker 02

  Never.

• 2:17:29Tucker Carlson?

  No, no, no.

• 2:17:29Speaker 02

  I really did not particularly care. I spent time in the country and I liked it. And that was kind of my, I said, ah, this Palestinian thing is kind of messed up, but whatever, you know, it's their business.

• 2:17:38Tucker Carlson?

  This was always like a lefty issue, all these people, you know, who you were, you don't agree with them on anything and they're running around talking about genocide. It's like, just stop. I had no desire, like the last thing I want to do is get involved in this.

• 2:17:53Speaker 02

  I felt the same, but I felt compelled. Once I saw not only the level, well, I saw the level of which the Likud interests started basically becoming a part of the mainstream American right.

• 2:18:06Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:07Speaker 02

  Became even more concerned when I saw Likud interests running state laws, passing BDS laws on the books of multiple states in the United States, restricting the free speech rights of American citizens.

• 2:18:18Tucker Carlson?

  Ron DeSantis signs a censorship law, a, you know, a blasphemy law in a foreign country?

• 2:18:26Speaker 02

  Right, in a foreign country.

• 2:18:27Tucker Carlson?

  I liked DeSantis. That was the point where it was like, you're disgusting. I can't support you.

• 2:18:30Speaker 02

  Ron DeSantis, who banned critical race theory, then basically starts affirmative action for Jewish students in the state of Florida. That I can't genuinely think of a better representation of the modern American right.

• 2:18:42Tucker Carlson?

  But it just destroyed Ron DeSantis and I really liked Ron DeSantis. I knew him pretty well. I always tried my best in my limited way to promote Ron DeSantis because I thought he did such a marvelous job during COVID in Florida. I was in Florida for part of that and I was like, oh, you're great. And he was totally destroyed by this one issue.

• 2:18:59Speaker 02

  Well, I got it.

• 2:18:59Tucker Carlson?

  Because it, it was totally, it was utterly inconsistent with everything else he was saying. It's like, wait, we're against affirmative action. We're against blasphemy laws. I thought we're Americans. We have a first amendment. How can you travel to a foreign country and sign a law restricting my speech rights?

• 2:19:16Speaker 02

  You're exactly right. The University of California system, the largest state in our country, is now saying that any organization that supports BDS will have all any federal grant money pulled. I mean, listen, this is insanity. Actually. Yes, that happened. I think it happened a couple of days ago. They're warning students not even to. Can you boycott the United States? Can you boycott other states? Of course you can. Of course you can. And that's my point is that it's genuinely all just about a foreign nation. And it's in one political party's interests and then hijacking it in ours. And I guess I should give the disclaimer, as you said, like you do, because I already know the inevitable. I'm not an anti-Semite. I spent a long time in Israel. I like Israel. I have people who I would consider genuine family, who are literally Israeli and live in Israel.

• 2:19:59Speaker 02

  I love them. It is not about them. It's about their government. It's about their party. And more specifically, it's actually about my country's relationship with them. I wish them nothing but the best. And I actually, I just wish we just treated it like any other country. I have affinity for Switzerland, Japan, India. I mean, I've been all over the world, which is one of the great blessings of my life. And I just want, I want to look at our relationship with all those countries on a relatively equal basis. And just say, okay, what are we getting from this? And what are we getting from that? And instead, I've watched this religion, both around support for Israel, but Ukraine and NATO. I mean, NATO is a religion, as you know. It's transformed itself into a religion and not a defensive alliance.

• 2:20:42Speaker 02

  And watching that happen has been one of the most frustrating events of my life. Because the consequences in both of these cases are so dire for the people who elect a lot of these representatives to power. And I mean, we're, we got lucky that the 12 day war ended when it did. But to say that that's the final solution is ridiculous. Because again, Israel bombs Iraq in 1981. Mission accomplished? Yes or no? Israel bombed Syria's reactor program in 2007. Mission accomplished? Did it stop there? Gaddafi gave up his nukes. Is it only just about nukes? Of course it's not about nukes. It's about regime change. That's what they want. They're open about it. And you know, please, everyone, watch Israeli television. There are a lot of people who translate it.

• 2:21:27Speaker 02

  They brag about this stuff out in the open, about killing Gazans, about regime change, about the way that they manipulate the United States. They say it in Hebrew. Ask your friend. There are a lot of Hebrew speakers here in America. They can translate it for you. It's sickening. It's out in the open. I mean, they make Fox. They put Fox News to shame. A lot of these people.

• 2:21:46Tucker Carlson?

  Which is hard to do.

• 2:21:47Speaker 02

  Which is very hard.

• 2:21:48Tucker Carlson?

  Boy, I, I, I just, I'm praying for Trump. I'm praying for, this is the last political solution to our problems. And I think we, I, all my hope is in Trump, and I hope that the administration course corrects and, and does it really soon.

• 2:22:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think they need to on that issue with Epstein. And broadly, you know, you were elected on a message about America first. And just so blatantly putting another country's interests ahead of our own is not going to go unnoticed by a large segment of the American public and specifically younger people who are suffering right now. The US economy right now is a disaster. The ability to buy a house rates are very high from the Fed. That's one thing he's correct about Trump, you know, especially on the Federal Reserve, about high interest rates, about the fact that we have like a collapse of social trust. I spent a long time talking about gambling. We're watching extractive industries get richer and richer on the backs of a lot of ordinary and working class people.

• 2:22:45Speaker 02

  Their lives are getting worse, probably every single year. And, you know, just touting GDP and, oh, tax cuts for the rich and all this stuff. I, I don't think people can put up with all of that together.

• 2:22:58Tucker Carlson?

  I agree.

• 2:22:58Speaker 02

  And, and, and you have three and a half years left, you know, you can still make a change if you want to.

• 2:23:04Tucker Carlson?

  For people who aren't familiar with your show, where do they find it?

• 2:23:08Speaker 02

  Breaking Points, Breaking Points on YouTube, Spotify, wherever you find it.

• 2:23:12Tucker Carlson?

  Congratulations on your well deserved success.

• 2:23:15Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 2:23:15Tucker Carlson?

  And I hope you're an inspiration to many others.

• 2:23:17Speaker 02

  Well, you're an inspiration to me. I owe a lot, all my career to you. Uh, and so I have to say that, thank you very much. Thank you for giving me the opportunity.

• 2:23:25Tucker Carlson?

  I didn't do anything. We just hired a lot of people at low wages, which I guess is kind of what you're decrying. Great to see you.

• 2:23:32Speaker 02

  It worked out though.

• 2:23:33Tucker Carlson?

  Thank you.

• 2:23:33Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 2:23:38Tucker Carlson?

  We want to thank you for watching us on Spotify, a company that we use every day. We know the people who run it, good people. While you're here, do us a favor, hit, follow and tap the bells. You never miss an episode. We have real conversations, news, things that actually matter, telling the truth always. You will not miss it if you follow us on Spotify and hit the bell. We appreciate it. Thanks for watching.