154. Question Time: Ben Wallace, intellectual PMs, and the fight for the Israeli flag

Will Rory run for London Mayor next year? What will Ben Wallace's political legacy look like? Why are left and right fighting over the Israeli flag? Join Rory and Alastair as they answer the TRIP mailbag for this week's edition of Question Time. TRIP Plus: Become a member of The Rest Is Politics Plus to support the podcast, enjoy ad-free listening to both TRIP and Leading, benefit from discount book prices on titles mentioned on the pod, join our Discord chatroom, and receive early access to live show tickets and Question Time episodes. Just head to therestispolitics.com to sign up, or start a free trial today on Apple Podcasts: apple.co/therestispolitics. Instagram: @restispolitics Twitter: @RestIsPolitics Email: [email protected] Producers: Dom Johnson + Nicole Maslen Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Rory Stewart?

  This episode is brought to you by NordVPN.

• 0:06Alastair Campbell?

  And I must thank NordVPN because on my Grand European Tour with Fiona, I was away from the Hawthorns for West Bromwich against Burnley, but I managed to watch it. There you go.

• 0:19Rory Stewart?

  I actually had a NordVPN thank you. I was in the new Starbucks here in Creef. And of course, the thing flashed up, saying this is an unsecured public network. And I was able to go to my VPN. And it was a little reminder of something we often forget when we're in all those cafes and things, which is actually genuinely, people can do all kinds of weird cyber attacks and spying if you don't have a virtual private network when you're sitting in that Starbucks.

• 0:42Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I think, are you not really sort of proud of me that I managed to do this? Or should I say Fiona managed to do this?

• 0:49Rory Stewart?

  I'm incredibly proud of you. That's a tech transformation. So to get the best discount off your NordVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com/restorspolitics. That's nordvpn.com/restorspolitics. And the link is in the episode description.

• 1:06Speaker 02

  This episode is brought to you by Welch's Fruit Snacks. Back to school season can be tough on parents. But choosing a snack you and your kids can both get behind doesn't have to be. Stock up on Welch's Fruit Snacks, made with whole fruit and now made with no artificial dyes. It's a snack kids already love and one you can feel good about giving them. Go back to school with Welch's Fruit Snacks, now made with no artificial dyes.

• 1:34Speaker 03

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• 1:55Alastair Campbell?

  Welcome to the Rest is Politics Question Time with me, Alastair Campbell.

• 1:58Rory Stewart?

  And me Rory Stewart.

• 2:00Alastair Campbell?

  So Rory, shall we start with Ben Wallace?

• 2:02Rory Stewart?

  Aha, yes.

• 2:03Alastair Campbell?

  I want to start with this one because of the name of the person who's asked the question, Rory Conboy.

• 2:08Rory Stewart?

  Oh my goodness.

• 2:09Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, I'd like to know Rory and Alistair's opinions of Ben Wallace. We rarely hear about him in the news. I'm not sure about that, as we do Home Secretaries etcetera. But he's been touted for PM before and now NATO Chief. Yet I doubt many people know who he is. I guess he is fairly low profile for a Defence Secretary in the middle of a war.

• 2:26Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, he was very high profile, of course, at the beginning of the war. And I think, you know, was impressed a lot of people when he was Boris Johnson's Defence Secretary, which put him in, he was leading the polls when Boris Johnson stepped down to be the potential Liz Truss alternative, and again, to be the potential Rishi Sunak alternative. But chose not to run in either situation. And I believe is now signalling that he's going to stand down at the next election.

• 2:54Alastair Campbell?

  No, you said it, he's going.

• 2:55Rory Stewart?

  He's somebody who I've known for a very, very long time. He's actually my neighbour from Creef in Scotland. So Creef in Scotland, producing these great statesmen, as you can see. Ben grew up about a mile away from me. He was a Scots Guards Officer. He was a member of the Scottish Parliament and then got into Parliament five years ahead of me. He really did not get on with David Cameron, who completely refused to give him any kind of job at all. And Ben was a sort of a very, very funny, acerbic backbencher, who could be absolutely relied on to take piss out of everybody. He was Ken Clark's PPS and he loved Ken Clark. And very unusually for a PPS as a member of Parliament who was supposed to act as the Minister's

• 3:38Rory Stewart?

  interaction with Parliament. And for most people, it's not a very big job. It's an unpaid job. But Ben Wallace completely embraced it, would have lunch with Ken Clark almost every day. Obviously adored spending time with him. So I was very fond of him, but he wasn't really getting anywhere. And his career only really took off finally when. David Cameron stepped down, Theresa May came and made him security minister. He managed both Boris Johnson's campaigns to be leader, which normally would be a, from my point of view, a black mark against someone, except he could not have been more charming. He called me up and he said, Rory, you know, I'm supposed to be calling you up to get you to vote for Boris Johnson, but my honest advice to you is, don't bother, it's not going to have any impact on your career one way or another, keep your head down, you

• 4:22Rory Stewart?

  don't need to endorse any of these people. So I'm quite a supporter of Ben Wallace, and I think he's done a pretty good job as Defence Secretary and will be missed.

• 4:30Alastair Campbell?

  Well, he's off and I can't quite work out whether he jumped before he was pushed. The talk was that Sunak was going to chop him in the upcoming reshuffle. So he did an interview where his military credentials were highlighted and he said that he, you know, done his time and he was fed up of waking up, being woken up in the middle of the night the whole time and he was, he was going to go off. He had a very nice pop at Suella Braverman.

• 4:54Rory Stewart?

  Oh, good. What did he say about her? Are we like that?

• 4:56Alastair Campbell?

  Well, he basically said that, you know, essentially, I'm paraphrasing, but you know, if only we had a Home Secretary who did their job properly, I wouldn't have to keep shipping out soldiers to clear out the mess that they made.

• 5:08Rory Stewart?

  He's, he's, he's, he's an unusual person because, you know, as his friendship with Ken Clark complies, he was a Remainer, very, very pro-European, but also strangely seemed to be sort of charmed by Boris Johnson, which is the one thing that I don't fully understand about him. But I think he's been an interesting Defence Secretary. I think he's highly credible. I think he's performed well. He hasn't been public eye much recently, but I think that's partly to do with number 10 message control. He was much more public under Boris Johnson. I think he performs well in the media because he knows what he's talking about. I do think from the military's point of view, it's sometimes been a bit challenging. They don't always like having a Defence Secretary who's been in the military because obviously he has pretty firm views on things and is often challenging the conventional wisdom.

• 5:51Rory Stewart?

  So he's an example of something we've talked about a bit in the past, about whether one really wants ministers who come from that field. The great advantage is they know what they're talking about. Disadvantage is that they often can get into the micro details, which is what I was accused of doing in the Foreign Office.

• 6:05Alastair Campbell?

  I think maybe the disadvantage is that they think they know what they're talking about. That's how I think the top military brass sometimes think of soldiers who become politicians. Donna Mooney asks whether we might be able to highlight an important event, which is an exhibition on the 5th of July, Victims and Prisoners Bill amendment tabled to move the following clause, resentencing those serving a sentence of imprisonment for public protection. I know this is something we've talked about before, but I thought you might like to give it a plug.

• 6:33Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, Donna Mooney has been campaigning for an extraordinary injustice in the British system, which is that relatively briefly introduced by David Blunkett was a new form of prison sentence, where you could be sent to prison indefinitely. It was a sort of life sentence, but it was given to people who'd committed minor offences. And the idea was that they'd remain in prison until such a time as someone thought they were safe to leave. And Donna connected with this because her brother, who'd committed a relatively minor crime, had been left in prison for a long time and was eventually tragically killed in prison. So she has been campaigning for this issue. These sentences were abolished under David Cameron, so they don't exist anymore. You can't get one of these sentences.

• 7:17Rory Stewart?

  But governments have been very reluctant to let out the people who were sentenced during that seven-odd-year window. And so many of them are recalled to prison on trivial offences and end up spending most of their lives in prison without having committed offences for which they would be entitled to get that kind of sentence. All right, question for you, sir. Bill Jones, more straightforward name than Rory con artist. Bill Jones, how necessary is it, Alistair, for PMs to be intellectually clever?

• 7:49Alastair Campbell?

  Oh, that's a very good question, isn't it? I like my political leaders to be very, very clever. I think people underestimate how clever you need to be to do that job well. And I think you definitely need all sorts of leadership skills and empathy. By clever, I mean the ability to analyse a problem based upon... You know, studying it from every, every, every which way. So yeah, I like them to be clever.

• 8:12Rory Stewart?

  What do you think about the kind of classic figures who were deeply, deeply admired and respected, but didn't necessarily have a reputation for being very clever? So I guess Willie Whitehall, Clement Lee, Jim Callahan. I mean, none of these people were seen as great intellectual titans, but people thought they had kind of judgment, bottom, they were able to do a good job.

• 8:34Alastair Campbell?

  No, I would say all of those are clever. The only, the two I knew personally, Jim Callahan and Willie Whitehall, I knew Willie Whitehall a bit when I was a journalist. And I think he had a kind of, he put on an act. I mean, not as sort of blatant as Johnson's act, but he sort of, I think he liked to come over as a bit bumbling, but I thought he had a very, very sharp mind. And Jim Callahan likewise, I think was acutely intelligent. It depends what we mean by clever, I guess, because you also do need in politics, you need to be a bit streetwise. You need to be able to look after yourself in whatever circumstances get thrown at you. I think that's what Mike Lee Natchey has struggled with when, you know, we talked to him on leading.

• 9:11Rory Stewart?

  Yeah. And definitely in American politics, there's a strong urge to not come across as being too clever by half. So I remember LBJ, Robert Kerres' book is full of examples of LBJ being as kind of coarse and outspoken as he possibly can be. When he talks about, talks about the CIA, he says, "The CIA remind me of a cow I used to have in Texas called Daisy. Whenever I was trying to milk it, its tail would flick the shit into the milk."

• 9:43Alastair Campbell?

  But that's quite clever.

• 9:45Rory Stewart?

  That's quite clever. I didn't think LDJ was foolish, but he definitely didn't go for intellectual name dropping.

• 9:50Alastair Campbell?

  Now, we'll have this one from Heil Gast. Politicians always seem to want to reform public services. Should they look closer to home? Should there be a complete reform of the House of Commons, the House of Lords, electoral system, MPs' expenses? Should every aspect of our politics be looked at to bring our system up to date? My answer is yes.

• 10:09Rory Stewart?

  100%, 100%. We desperately need to bring our system up to date. I think that the problem is, of course, we'll get into devil details of how we do it, but I think a proportional representation system that would allow new parties to emerge, so these sclerotic old horrors of the Conservative and Labour Party can be disrupted a bit. I think a chance to have a Properly appointed professional House of Lords, which wasn't stuffed full of aging old politicians and Boris Johnson's spats, would be a great step forward. I think much stronger local democracy, much stronger local mayors with proper fundraising powers. Anything from your side on that?

• 10:47Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I think this goes back to what we've talked about in the main podcast. I really, really, really hope Labour get into this in a big way. And Angela Rayner, I think, was putting her toe in the water of it in her speech last week. So yeah, look, this is what I mean. I think that this isn't about tax and spend. This is basically about saying one of the reasons, I mentioned that polling that was presented to the Tony Blair Institute conference that Keir Starmer spoke at, it's, it could not be clearer that people don't just think the country's stuck, they think that our politics is part of the problem. So if it's part of the problem, you have to change it.

• 11:20Rory Stewart?

  Very good. I've got one for you. Ryan Whale. I have a question, possibly more for Alistair, but would love to hear about Rory's experiences. I'm 28 and already a senior person in my company and flirted with Labour over standing as a councillor. I suffer with depression and during these episodes feel guilty about losing my edge when it comes to my work. Often senior individuals are less inclined to talk as they feel it could undermine their position. What are both your experiences on this and could you share any advice? I'm going to give you that one.

• 11:52Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I would say don't feel guilty. Just, you know, go with whatever those feelings are. I get that. I get times when I, if I'm in the middle of a depression, when I feel worthless. It's not just, you know, I just can't do anything. But I have to tell myself in those situations that there are lots of times when I do do a lot. So I think it's sort of retaining a sense of your own self and your self-confidence when you're depressed is very, very, very, very difficult. But keep going. All you can do is keep going and understand that 99 times out of 100, you're going to get through it. I must say, by the way, I got a wonderful letter the other day from a guy who had read my book, Rory, which is called?

• 12:34Rory Stewart?

  Which is called But What Can I Do?

• 12:37Alastair Campbell?

  Thank you.

• 12:38Rory Stewart?

  Instead, you're going to remind people what my book's called.

• 12:41Alastair Campbell?

  Your book is called Politics on the Edge.

• 12:45Rory Stewart?

  Available for pre-order now, coming out in September. This is the time to get the pre-order of that rare first edition copy for anyone listening.

• 12:53Alastair Campbell?

  Sorry, that rare first edition copy, Rory, they just press a button now and they come out. I mean, honestly, it's like, if you're going to at least keep it serious. That's like the Brexit £12 trillion deal, the rare first edition copy. Anyway, this this letter came from a gentleman by the name of Stephen Lister. And he said that as a result of reading my book, But What Can I Do? He decided to become a candidate in his local council election. And that is part of what I'm trying to do with the book is to get people to think whatever's going on in their life, they can give something a go. So well done, Stephen, and good luck, and I hope you win

• 13:37Alastair Campbell?

  in your upcoming by-election.

• 13:40Rory Stewart?

  Very good. On this, there's a lot of skullduggery going on. And it's happens, we've seen with the Labour election, so with Jamie Driscoll and things we've been talking about. It's happening with the Tories, too. There's people are getting in touch with me with stories of individual constituencies shifting the dates of their selection to make sure they can manoeuvre particular candidates in and other particular candidates out and all this kind of stuff. Part of the political reforms we need is much more clarity and transparency about the way these people are selected. Because in some of these seats, particularly safe seats, Labour or Conservative, it's the sort of primary selection that determines who's going to be the Member of Parliament, more almost than the general election.

• 14:21Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah. Views on Nicocia and Cyprus, Mike Pierri, and I'm doing this one because this guy has asked this question so often. Next week marks 49 years since Turkey invaded Cyprus. What are your views on Nicocia being the last divided capital city in the world? What are the prospects of the Cyprus issue ever being resolved? Not good, I would say.

• 14:40Rory Stewart?

  Well, I mean, I think it's incredible that it's been almost 50 years. 1974, there was a coup d'etat. Greeks at that point was ruled by the colonels and they sponsored a coup d'etat in Cyprus. Five days later, the Turkish military invaded. Eighty percent of the population of Cyprus was Greece. Hundred and fifty thousand Greeks were then pushed out of northern Cyprus and then enormous number of Turks were then pushed north.

• 15:08Rory Stewart?

  And the standoff comes from that moment. If you think about it, the UK has these two sovereign base areas in Cyprus and since 1960 has had quite substantial deployments. And I remember my friend Ambassador Richard Holbrook in the United States seeing this as an issue that was going to be solved in the 1980s. But we're still in a situation with very, very significant presence and essentially a frozen conflict between Turkey and Greece following an invasion and a situation that defines the European Union because the votes of Cyprus have huge consequences in terms of things like Turkish accession.

• 15:49Rory Stewart?

  And very sadly, in a way that nobody could have imagined in 1960, something that I can't see an easy way towards solving. And one almost gets the sense as 50 years pass that people give up, give up the energy.

• 16:02Alastair Campbell?

  I mean, it is, the negotiations just keep going on, don't they? They'll have another round and then another round. And I guess quite a lot of the people who were negotiating, involved in the negotiation at the start will be dead. They'll have died before this thing got, got resolved. Here's a little quiz question for you, Roy. I know you love your history. What was the name of the British general who drew the line on the map of Nicocia that led to the divide?

• 16:29Rory Stewart?

  Oh my goodness, I don't know. What's the answer to that?

• 16:32Alastair Campbell?

  The answer is Peter Young. And I only know that because somebody sent me something to read about this a few weeks ago.

• 16:38Rory Stewart?

  Right, lots more questions to come, Alistair. Let's take a quick break.

• 16:42Alastair Campbell?

  Okidok.

• 16:44Speaker 02

  This episode is brought to you by Welch's Fruit Snacks. Back to school season can be tough on parents. But choosing a snack you and your kids can both get behind doesn't have to be. Stock up on Welch's Fruit Snacks. Made with whole fruit and now made with no artificial dyes. It's a snack kids already love and one you can feel good about giving them. Go back to school with Welch's Fruit Snacks. Now made with no artificial dyes.

• 17:12Speaker 03

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• 18:00Rory Stewart?

  Are leading guests paid? Up the pyramid. Can you clarify if any of your guests are paid? I don't want my subscription to be funding the likes of Gerry Adams or George Osborne. Well, there we are. Are you funding a terrorist down there or an austerity guy?

• 18:17Alastair Campbell?

  Well, because of austerity, George Osborne's living standards have collapsed calamitously. So we paid him the princely sum of absolutely zero. And we paid Gerry Adams zero as well.

• 18:29Rory Stewart?

  To cut to the chase, we don't pay our guests. For some extraordinary reason, up to this moment, the guests seem to feel sufficient privileged to come on this show without us having to pay them. They are all free guests.

• 18:40Alastair Campbell?

  Good question though, Rory. Who would you? If somebody came on and said, I'll only come on if you pay me. Is there any guest in the world for whom you think that would be justifiable?

• 18:49Rory Stewart?

  Goodness gracious me. Oh, that's a really good question. It would have to be somebody that really irritated you. And I just don't know enough about Burnham to be able to put my finger on who exactly it would be that I could pay to come and wind you up.

• 19:03Alastair Campbell?

  Michael Seal, the UK's music industry can be counted as one of our best exports. Why, especially since the Tories came to power, has music been neglected in schools when the benefit of learning an instrument and participating on the ensembles of all types and sizes are huge to society? Now, even though you're not a massive music bod, Rory, would you agree with the sentiment to that question? And also, when we talked to Fergal Sharkey on the on the leading podcast, he was making the point that Britain and America, the absolute superpowers of music, and Brexit has made it a lot harder for Britain to maintain that status.

• 19:40Rory Stewart?

  Well, I think there's a huge case to be made for for more government investment in culture and the arts and music and other things like video games and basic science. The tough challenge, I guess, in education is that there are only so many hours in the day. It's all very well, and somebody actually challenged me on this on Twitter when I was talking about, you know, the number of hours you can fit in in a boarding school. And in a boarding school, you've got huge resources, a lot of money in private schools, and teachers who can then run a day which is 12 hours long, right? And the problem, I think, in most schools in Britain is how do you balance the government's

• 20:23Rory Stewart?

  attempt, which I think is completely right, to make sure that we went up the PISA scales in literacy and maths, I think that was a very important thing to do, while also providing space in the curriculum for all that other stuff and to do it at a high quality? I mean, that's that's something definitely encumbria when I visited schools that people often complained about, which is that they felt that, yes, there was the theatre offering in the school, there was a music offering in the school, but it wasn't at the quality that they would have liked to see. So here we are. Joy Adams, this is a good one. This is worth listening to the podcast just for this. I worked for Virgin Atlantic for two years and used to suffer from terrible jet lag. So I picked up a trick from the pilots.

• 21:04Rory Stewart?

  Work out eight o'clock in the morning in your arrival destination, subtract 15 hours from that, and fast for that length of time, brackets, only drink water. Sleep as much as you can. Your body will go into starvation mode, and upon eating a hearty breakfast will reset your body clock, avoiding all jet lag. I haven't asked the question, so will you run for mayor again next year and can I volunteer for your campaign?

• 21:32Alastair Campbell?

  Well, what's the answer to that? Yes or no?

• 21:35Rory Stewart?

  Oh, I I'm afraid I don't think I'm going to be doing so. If if I do run for mayor though, Joe, I will definitely be in touch.

• 21:41Alastair Campbell?

  Listen, I saw that question and I was, as I confessed on the main podcast, I was about to take a flight and I just couldn't work it out. I mean, I used to be really good at maths, but I don't understand how that works. And also, I'm very worried about pilots doing long haul without having any sustenance at all.

• 22:03Rory Stewart?

  That's a good point.

• 22:04Alastair Campbell?

  So how do they, tell me what you have to do. Let's say I'm getting a flight.

• 22:07Rory Stewart?

  This is something called, I mean, I think a lot of listeners will know about this. This is called ketosis. So many people actually think it's quite good for you to do a 15 hour gap between meals. Many people skip breakfast, skip dinner now. It's kind of intermittent fasting because your body begins to digest toxins is the claim by driving your body into ketosis. But there's no doubt at all, I wear one of these Oura rings which monitors my my sleep and readiness. And it is total night and day. If you have a very light supper or don't have supper at all, you sleep so much better than if you have a meal, let alone a meal and a drink.

• 22:42Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I should have done it because I've I slept about an hour and a half last night. Lady Girasoles, she actually asked about four questions, but I'm going to give you this one. It just says Boris Johnson, new neighbours and EU flags. Have you heard about this?

• 22:57Rory Stewart?

  No, go on then.

• 22:58Alastair Campbell?

  So basically, you know, when Boris Johnson goes for those 20 yard runs, if he sees any cameras and then he gets back in a car, we see him on television constantly doing his little jogs for the cameras. The neighbours near where he's bought this posh gaff down in the middle of I don't know where, where he just put a planning permission in for a new swimming pool, they've started to raise European flags. Says that when he goes out for a jog now, he has to, he has to run past several European flags. Well, what do we think of that, Roy? I quite like that.

• 23:27Rory Stewart?

  Well, I think that sounds very British. Sounds very jolly and British. Speaking about more sort of.

• 23:34Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, I suppose it's more gritty politics. Sivan, my name is Sivan, I'm an Israeli. With the judicial overhaul steaming ahead, things have gotten pretty crazy around here, even by Israeli standards. Every conversation eventually reaches this topic. Spending Saturday night at a demonstration has become standard practice and I have sunscreen and a flag, ready to go at all times. But since we're all so immersed in this, I'm actually wondering what things look like from the outside. I'd love to hear your take on this. So, I'm actually going to be in Israel-Palestine tomorrow and it is really fascinating. As Sivan says, there are, you know, over a hundred thousand people in the street now every Saturday night.

• 24:19Rory Stewart?

  The flag that Sivan is carrying is almost certainly an Israeli flag because the protesters are trying to make it very clear that they are supporters of the state of Israel but very angry about Bibi Netanyahu's reforms on the judiciary, which we've talked about in a previous podcast. These extraordinary, I mean, it's always the classic move of populist and authoritarians to try to overhaul the judiciary and stop the judiciary from being able to challenge, challenge the executive and legislature. I think people have been struck, particularly in the US, by how peaceful these demonstrations are, that they've been going on week in, week out, and that they're conducted in very

• 24:59Rory Stewart?

  good humour, and that it's a sign of a particular kind of maturity of one part of Israeli civil society. But of course, people outside are also noticing that this is happening at the same time as the attacks on Jenin and how those crowds thirty years ago would have included many more people from the old Israeli left who would have been much more concerned with the issue of Palestine. And it's, there's been a sort of bifurcation in Israeli politics where a progressive group has emerged, very concerned about the Israeli constitution, but they seem to be less and less concerned about the question of Palestine, which remains very raw and unresolved.

• 25:37Alastair Campbell?

  Well, it's like, you know, when we were talking about Cyprus and the divided capital. I was thinking that is there a danger that the the Middle East peace process insofar as it relates to Israel and Palestine just sort of drifts on forever without any real resolution? And I think there's a generally accepted that it's not going to get resolved unless some of the big powers, especially the United States, get focused, stay focused, and really try to drive it. And there seems to have been something of a breakdown between in relations between Biden and Netanyahu, that the White House are now saying that, you know, they might meet sometime later in the year. Herzog is going to be making

• 26:19Alastair Campbell?

  a a visit. I think in answer to the question about how they're seen at the moment, I mean, regardless of where you stand on the Palestine question, Israel is coming, I think, coming over very, very badly to the world. Netanyahu facing all these charges, the most right-wing government they've ever had, and all the sort of, you know, the creeping settlements, the violence that's become, yet again, becoming normalized. And I'm afraid the question of, you know, so far as most parts of the world are concerned, I think actually the the dial has been turned down on Israel, if anything. There's not, there's just not that much focus on it because people look at it and think it's pretty hopeless. Is that right?

• 26:59Rory Stewart?

  Yes, I think that's right. And it's also true that the traditional supporters of Palestine have lost patience and are largely abandoning them. And you've got the Gulf countries signing up these Abraham Accords agreements with Israel. You've got Israeli tourists now going to Dubai. You've got a sense that, you know, the centre of Middle Eastern politics has shifted to the Gulf away from Palestine. It's a miserable situation.

• 27:22Alastair Campbell?

  Let's let's finish with this one. Stephen Kenny, I really enjoy the podcast, but it triggers me when you both adopt a Westminster-centric approach whenever Scottish independence is discussed. Is it such a huge ask for one of you to at least adopt the devil's advocate approach, discussing its merits on democratic deficits, et cetera? Thanks. I think that's a bit unfair on me, actually, because I regularly say that I do understand the desire for independence much more than I did, particularly at a time when we keep, you know, in London. And the rest of the UK, we keep serving up these wretched and pretty useless conservative governments. That being said, I think I'm then entitled to say, but I hope

• 28:04Alastair Campbell?

  that a Labour government and a return or a revival of the Labour Party in Scotland might lead people to think that their their interests are better served by staying in the UK. But I do, at an emotional level, I do understand the the desire for independence. By the way, Broi, I bumped into Douglas Alexander the other day, who lost his seat against Mary Black in Paisley, but he's now coming back. And he's, he's, he's standing in a, in a seat in Midlothian where he's got a chance. But I bumped into him and he said, I've got a very good line for you, which you can feel free to use on your podcast, which he and his children all listen. He said, the SNP have now been in power in Scotland since before the iPhone was invented.

• 28:46Rory Stewart?

  That's, that's a good line. It's interesting the attacks on this. I mean, Mary's written in. Why is it that despite both declaring pride in your Scottishness, you hardly ever talk about Scottish politics in any depth on the podcast? My observation is when you do, you show quite limited understanding of the context and make quite superficial and fleeting references to the Scottish political environment. Also, when might you invite Nicola Sturgeon to come on, as I think she could help you really grasp what's going on in Scottish politics? Now, I, I think Mary, the, I think quite a lot's given away in that last sentence, I'm afraid, from my point of view. The idea that we should be inviting Nicola Sturgeon to come on because she's the person who could help us really grasp what's going on in Scottish politics, I'm afraid is is essentially claiming, and this is what I feel

• 29:31Rory Stewart?

  as somebody who's very proud of being Scottish, and I think will probably end up living the majority of my life in Scotland. I don't think that means that you have to believe in Scottish independence, and I don't think the Scottish National Party has any kind of monopoly on a right to speak for Scottishness.

• 29:48Alastair Campbell?

  That being said, if Nicola Sturgeon would like to come on the podcast, she'd be very, very welcome, Rory.

• 29:54Rory Stewart?

  She certainly would. She certainly would. Very happy to have her. And in fact, I think you've invited her in the past.

• 29:59Alastair Campbell?

  I have, and I've actually, I've interviewed her before, various outlets. And no, I suspect at the moment, she won't be doing that many big interviews. But if she's listening, and if she wants to come on, she'd be more than welcome. I think she's making a fair point, but it comes 100% from the perspective. And I think this is what happens when people believe something as passionately as some SNP supporters do, and some backers of independents do, that they think that somebody saying they don't agree with their basic point means that they don't understand their basic point. I do understand their basic point. And at times, I am more sympathetic to it than others. Johnson premiership, mid Brexit fiasco, I

• 30:39Alastair Campbell?

  was particularly sympathetic towards it. But, but in general, I still veer to the, to the view that, you know, we're better off as part of the United Kingdom.

• 30:49Rory Stewart?

  Yeah. I mean, if I can push back at Mary, my view on this is that I think that the belief that you can make your problems better by cutting off something else, which is basically what the Brexiteers believe. They thought that all their problems came from Europe, and if they just got rid of Europe, everything would get better. And I often feel that some of the SNP rhetoric suggests that all the problems in Scotland come from Westminster. And if you just got rid of England, somehow all Scotland's problems would be solved. I think that's, doesn't work at any level in life. It's like feeling that if you cut off your friends or your relatives, somehow your life will be simpler and better. Generally speaking, the problems that we have in our own countries are 95% within those countries. And blaming some other force, or assuming that by lopping

• 31:34Rory Stewart?

  off, you're going to make your life better, I think is, is just something I disagree with. I don't like the idea of making yourself smaller.

• 31:41Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, well, that is definitely the argument against Brexit, for sure.

• 31:44Rory Stewart?

  Okay, on that note, Helso, let's bring it to an end.

• 31:46Alastair Campbell?

  All the best.

• 31:47Rory Stewart?

  Bye bye.

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