221. “I’m almost 40 and still living paycheck to paycheck”

Romy (38) and Travis (37) are a married couple living in Cape Town—but despite earning over $130,000 a year, they’re constantly running on empty. Romy feels the crushing weight of managing everything alone, while Travis avoids financial planning and insists things will “just work out.” Together, they’ve repeated the exact same dynamic Romy grew up with—right down to the hidden savings and anxious sleepless nights. Can they stop playing financial whack-a-mole and finally build a system that supports their future dreams, or will history keep repeating itself? In this episode we uncover: • Why Travis believes he can always “go fishing” to make money—and how that mindset creates instability. • How growing up with financial chaos shaped both of their attitudes toward money and planning. • The emotional weight Romy carries by being the only one thinking about the future. • Romy’s secret UK savings account—why she kept it hidden, and what happened to the money. • Their chaotic approach to buying property—and why they can’t clearly say if it’s for living or investing. • How disorganized thinking shows up in everything from taxes to tipping the valet. • The truth about their emergency fund (or lack thereof)—and the very real risks they face. • Why Travis’s role as the “reassurer” actually prevents change—and how Romy feels trapped by it. • How Ramit challenges Travis to redefine generosity without spending money. • The first steps they take toward rebuilding trust and creating a shared financial system. I’m casting couples right now for a new season of this podcast. If you’ve been wanting to get my advice on your situation, this is the last chance to talk to me in 2025. Apply now at iwt.com/apply Chapters: (00:00:00) “I tapped my card and it said insufficient funds” (00:09:23) “I’m living the same financial life as my parents” (00:18:13) Ramit breaks down their numbers (00:38:14) The weight of taking on the “man’s” role (00:52:48) “I’ve been poor before—I’ll be poor again” (01:02:08) Living on hope, not numbers (01:12:05) “We’re doing this together” — building a new financial identity (01:28:56) Where are they now? Romy and Travis’s follow-ups This episode is brought to you by: Doola | Go to https://doola.com/ramit and use code RAMIT for 10% off LLC formation and bookkeeping. Facet | Facet is waiving their $250 enrollment fee for new annual members, and for my audience, Facet is offering $300 into your brokerage account if you invest and maintain $5,000 within your first 90 days. Head to https://facet.com/ramit to learn more about which membership option is best for you. DeleteMe | If you want to get your personal information removed from the web, go to https://joindeleteme.com/ramit for 20% off with promo code RAMIT at checkout. Rocket Money | Cancel unwanted subscriptions and manage your expenses the easy way at https://rocketmoney.com/ramit. LMNT | Right now, LMNT is offering 8 single serving packets FREE with any LMNT order. Get yours at https://drinklmnt.com/RAMIT. Links mentioned in this episode • Get tickets for my next live events—September 14 in Atlanta and September 26 in Los Angeles—at iwt.com/events Connect with Ramit • Get my new book, Money For Couples • Get Money Coaching with Ramit • Download the Conscious Spending Plan • Listen to my book—now on Audible • Get my New York Times best-selling book • Get my no-numbers journal • Other episodes • Instagram • Twitter • YouTube If you and your partner have a money issue and you want my help, I occasionally select a couple to work with, free of charge. Apply for my help here.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ramit Sethi?

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• 0:43Ramit Sethi?

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• 2:14Speaker 01

  I'm like almost forty and I'm in this situation still. I'm going to tap my card and there's nothing there. And it says insufficient funds.

• 2:21Speaker 02

  I think because we've always been able to work. I've never worried about it.

• 2:25Speaker 01

  My parents were always worried about money, like always worried about money. And then 10 years ago, my dad died and my mom was left without even one dollar. That caused a lot of anxiety.

• 2:37Ramit Sethi?

  Romy, you've said you're carrying the full financial and emotional burden. Do you feel like you are in a true partnership?

• 2:45Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:45Speaker 02

  I'm upset. I'm upset hearing it spelt out to me and I'm upset that my wife feels that way.

• 2:52Speaker 01

  I think lately I've become a bit like, almost like hopeless.

• 2:54Ramit Sethi?

  You don't know your own income. You fight about five dollar expenses. And by the way, your investments are forty five dollars off of a hundred and thirty thousand dollar income. This is a major problem. Listen to what this couple wrote in their application. We don't have much savings and I often lie awake at night worrying. When I try to sit down with him, it often ends in an argument. My mom was a worrier and my dad an avoider. The day my dad passed away, suddenly my mom was left with zero dollars. Today I'm speaking with Romy and Travis. They've been married for six and a half years. They live in South Africa. Romy carries the burden of planning and saving and worrying. Travis avoids responsibility, spends freely.

• 3:39Ramit Sethi?

  They've repeated the exact same pattern that Romy grew up watching. And now she is desperate to break it. Let's take a look at their numbers. We're going to go through their conscious spending plan or CSP, which you can download for free at IWT.com/csp. Their income is a hundred and thirty thousand, five hundred and sixty dollars. Assets, a hundred and forty six thousand, fifty five dollars. Investments are only forty five dollars. That's surprising. Debt is a hundred and forty eight thousand, six hundred and seventeen. Total net worth, two thousand, nine hundred and eighty three dollars. Fixed costs are very high at seventy six percent.

• 4:20Ramit Sethi?

  Savings are at four percent and guilt free spending is at nineteen. You talk about money?

• 4:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, we talk about money.

• 4:30Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, what was that deep breath you just took?

• 4:33Speaker 01

  Because it always ends in a fight, usually.

• 4:36Ramit Sethi?

  Is that right? Who brings it up?

• 4:39Speaker 01

  Me.

• 4:40Ramit Sethi?

  And what time of the day or night do you typically bring it up?

• 4:45Speaker 01

  So I must say I could do better on the situations where I choose to bring it up. But it's sometimes in an anxious situation I'll bring it up. Or I won't say anything for a while and then I'll be like really upset for like a few days. And as a person in general, I'm not that great with like boundaries or saying how I feel. So it's kind of like when it gets to that point, it's like really hard for me to do it. Like even this weekend, we had a few disagreements, I guess because we're coming on the show and we'd be talking about it, about money.

• 5:15Ramit Sethi?

  Well, let's talk about those. What happened?

• 5:17Speaker 01

  So we were talking about money and we'd had like a disagreement. And I was saying to my husband, I feel really anxious because since my father passed away, we care for my mom financially. And like what we pay for her now is like the cheapest it's ever going to get. And we had a really good conversation about it. Then we got up to leave and then we walked past somebody who had some health challenges asking for money. So Travis gave him money. And then we went to pay for our car parking ticket that came to like $5. And then he gave the person like a $5 tip for no reason. And in that moment, it made me feel so upset because I felt like, have you not heard anything that I've said?

• 5:59Speaker 01

  Like you don't have the kind of bank account to just be giving away money at the moment. You don't even have like $5 savings. So it kind of felt like everything I'd spent my energy talking about for an hour was almost pointless. And I felt really like deflated and unheard.

• 6:16Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 6:18Ramit Sethi?

  Thank you for sharing that. Travis, I'd love to hear your perspective.

• 6:22Speaker 02

  I feel very overwhelmed and a bit like numb in a sense because this has gone on for so long. She said some things this weekend as well that were like literally like a silver bullet to my heart. It was like so much that I'm behaving pretty weirdly the last two or three days. And I've researched what it is and it's just numbness because I'm like coming to terms with like what I've done and what I've been putting her through. So I'm at a point now where I realize what she's going through and what I've been putting her through. I understand now that it wasn't about the money. It was the principle because she felt that she wasn't heard, not the fact that I'd given away three dollars.

• 6:56Ramit Sethi?

  Hmm. You realize this now, how long have you two been married?

• 7:01Speaker 02

  Six and a half years.

• 7:03Ramit Sethi?

  Hmm, how long have you been talking about money?

• 7:05Speaker 02

  From the beginning, Romy's always been very key on the budget and everything, but I, I heard the words, but I wasn't listening.

• 7:10Ramit Sethi?

  Why?

• 7:11Speaker 02

  Why wasn't, I don't have an answer for you. I don't have an, I don't know why.

• 7:14Ramit Sethi?

  Well, let's try. We're here. We might as well try to find out.

• 7:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, thanks.

• 7:18Ramit Sethi?

  Why did you hear her talking about money since day one? But you didn't really listen or internalize it?

• 7:26Speaker 02

  I think because we've always been able to work, both Romy and I are skilled. I'm a city and suburban arborist or tree surgeon or like you guys call it lumberjacks out there. And Romy is a designer and a very good designer. I've never worried about it. So I always say that we're going to go fishing. I mean, we're always going to have our fishing rods and our boats to go and catch fish to eat, just to provide for ourselves. So I think maybe because like I feel that I can always make money until I can't move anymore. I'll just go out, I'll just catch it, man. It's fine. So I think that's possibly a problem that I have, that I've had.

• 8:01Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. So you haven't worried about money. So therefore you haven't really heard Romy's pleas or concerns. You use the fishing metaphor. We can always go fishing. We can always be self-sufficient if something really bad happens. And therefore it's kind of fine. Am I reading that correctly?

• 8:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that sounds right.

• 8:24Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Romy, does that surprise you at all to hear?

• 8:29Speaker 01

  No, because sometimes Travis is like, just sell a car or I mean, what's the worst that can happen? We can end up under a bridge. I'm like, I've been in like a really bad situations before. I don't wanna relive it if I don't have to. Like, why does that have to be the plan?

• 8:43Ramit Sethi?

  Romy, you mentioned sometimes going to a store, tapping your card and not knowing if there's enough money. When you hear that and when you think of that example, what does that bring up for you?

• 8:57Speaker 01

  I just started sweating and I feel really anxious.

• 9:01Ramit Sethi?

  Hmm. How many times do you think that you've done that?

• 9:04Speaker 01

  Um, more than a hundred.

• 9:07Ramit Sethi?

  Wow. So paint the picture for me. What's happening exactly?

• 9:11Speaker 01

  Hmm. Mostly I'm at a store and I've gone to buy groceries for dinner and I get to the till point and then I tap my card and it says insufficient funds. And most of the time I'm with Travis and then I'm like, oh, hey, there's like no money in the groceries account. He's like, oh, okay, don't worry. I'll put some money there. And there's like a queue of people behind me, like waiting to be next. And it caused me a lot of anxiety because it happened a lot when I was a child to this exact same scenario. I'm like almost forty and I'm in this situation still, but I'm like going to tap my card and when we both make enough money, there's nothing there. Causes me quite a lot of stress.

• 9:53Ramit Sethi?

  Travis, when you're right next to her checking out, what are you feeling at that moment?

• 9:58Speaker 02

  Honestly, I'm not anxious at all, but I also know it's my bad planning.

• 10:02Ramit Sethi?

  Romy, Travis said that he hasn't worried about money. Have you worried about money?

• 10:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, when I was growing up, my dad was a factory worker and my mom was a teacher and we grew up in quite a wealthy suburb in Cape Town. So the school I went to, everyone had quite a lot. So I was always conscious that we didn't have much. I mean, often there'd be like no lunch when I got home from school and my parents were always worried about money, like always worried about money. And then 10 years ago, my dad died and my mom was left without even one dollar. So that caused a lot of anxiety. Before we got married as a single person, when I was working in London as a designer, I didn't worry because I had complete financial control. I had my tax free saver. I had my S and P five hundred account. I had it all, you know?

• 10:54Speaker 01

  And then after my dad died, I had a few changes in life. I went to Mozambique and worked as a volunteer. So when we got married, it wasn't like I'm a worker with my bank accounts and I've got my things sorted and we kind of like meeting like that. It was more like Travis is working and I'm coming from like a volunteer background, not having much.

• 11:14Ramit Sethi?

  I see. Do you feel like you have control over your money now?

• 11:20Ramit Sethi?

  No.

• 11:20Speaker 01

  No.

• 11:21Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. And when I say your money, let's talk about, do you have control over your individual money and do you have control over joint money?

• 11:30Speaker 01

  No, I would say no, because we just spend whatever we earn. So say I do put aside some money and I say, okay, this month I'd like to buy myself some more makeup or something. If Travis wants to go out for dinner or wants to eat something specific, I'll just have to put what I've earned into the bank account so that we have money to pay for our groceries.

• 11:50Ramit Sethi?

  Have you ever said no?

• 11:52Speaker 01

  No.

• 11:54Ramit Sethi?

  Tell me about that.

• 11:55Speaker 01

  I haven't said no in a lot of areas. It's something I'm learning uh as a thirty eight year old um to be better at having some boundaries. I wouldn't say it's my forte, but I'm trying to work on it.

• 12:08Ramit Sethi?

  Did your mom ever say no?

• 12:10Speaker 01

  About money.

• 12:12Ramit Sethi?

  Let's start with that.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  She said no to me a lot about a lot of different things. Yeah.

• 12:17Ramit Sethi?

  Mm hmm. How about to your dad? Did she say no about money?

• 12:20Speaker 01

  No, I actually have the exact same financial situation that they had.

• 12:24Ramit Sethi?

  Is that right?

• 12:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, my dad and Travis couldn't be like whole some a personality wise. And I'm like a warrior, like my mom was like always like, hey, can we have insurance? Can we have some savings?

• 12:37Ramit Sethi?

  So your mom was a worrier, you are a worrier, your dad was um.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  Avoider.

• 12:44Ramit Sethi?

  Avoider, yeah. An avoider and Travis is an avoider. When did you realize that uh there was this lineage?

• 12:51Speaker 01

  Maybe page, what's it, one ninety two of your book.

• 12:57Speaker 01

  Actually, I was reading it laughing like, oh, my goodness, this is the situation.

• 13:02Ramit Sethi?

  That's quite interesting. Married seven years.

• 13:06Ramit Sethi?

  And right now, realizing the similarities between how you grew up

• 13:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:11Ramit Sethi?

  And the situation that you're in. So I can understand, you know, it's a little funny like, how did I not realize that? Did you feel anything else as you read that?

• 13:20Speaker 01

  I felt funny, but I felt like a bit sad. Like, that's something I watched my whole life and I didn't like enjoy watching it. It wasn't like a nice atmosphere to be in at home. And now like, oh my goodness, I have this now.

• 13:35Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  Was more a bit of shock in a way, too.

• 13:38Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. Okay.

• 13:41Ramit Sethi?

  Travis, do you feel that you contribute equally when it comes to money?

• 13:47Speaker 02

  Um, like with numbers, yes, but with like bank statements and talking to tax advisors and our accountants, no.

• 13:54Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Romy, are you managing all of the financial logistics alone?

• 13:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. And even when we talk with the accountant, actually, that's one thing I said no to this weekend. I emailed the accountant and said, if you have any questions about Travis's account, please email him.

• 14:09Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. How did that feel to say?

• 14:12Speaker 01

  Felt good. I had like liberating.

• 14:15Ramit Sethi?

  Wow. Okay. That's awesome. I love hearing that. Liberating. What a powerful word. We can be liberated from some of our older beliefs, very, very perceptive, insightful. We're gonna, we're gonna keep that in the parking lot over here because I think we might come back to it. Isn't it interesting how our upbringing shapes the way that we look at the world decades later? Romy watched her mom worry about money for her whole life. She watched her dad avoid money. You watch this happen for long enough, you start to believe this is how money works. This is one reason that so many women emulate their mom's behavior with money and so many men emulate their dads.

• 14:59Ramit Sethi?

  Romy said her mom didn't have a dollar to her name when her dad passed away. So it's no surprise that she worries about money. She literally lies awake at night catastrophizing, mulling over small purchases. And then, turns out she married an avoider, repeating the exact same cycle as her parents. Now, I will say the good news is that we can change a dynamic. I want to say it again because it's so important for you to know if you are in a dynamic that is not serving you, you can change it, especially here and now that we recognize some of the dynamic that's going on. If you are in a dynamic that's not working for you anymore, if you want to change it, I wrote about money dynamics in my new book,

• 15:43Ramit Sethi?

  Money for Couples. You can download the first chapter for free at iwt.com/mfcpreview. We'll get into their conscious spending plan right after this. Can we take a look at your numbers?

• 15:57Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 15:58Ramit Sethi?

  Let's see, Romy, can you read the word in bold and the number in full next to it for this entire box, please?

• 16:05Speaker 01

  Okay. Assets, 146,055. Investments, $45.00. Savings, $5,500. Debt, 148,617. Total network, 2,983.

• 16:26Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, great. What do you think of those numbers?

• 16:29Speaker 01

  I would definitely like to have an emergency fund, especially the fact that we're both freelancers, and I would definitely like to have more investments.

• 16:39Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Travis?

• 16:41Speaker 02

  I'm not happy. I also want to have more of a savings account. And yeah, I also want to get out of debt. I'm tired of debt, man, hanging over my head.

• 16:47Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, got it. Before we go on, your debt of $148,000, I noticed that $130,000 is your home loan. And just so I understand, because your financial system is different than the one in the US, what is the interest rate on your loan?

• 17:04Speaker 01

  10.5%.

• 17:06Ramit Sethi?

  All right. So $130,000 at 10%. What's the rest of the debt?

• 17:12Speaker 02

  So I didn't file a tax return in between 2016 and 2017. I left the UK. My visa came to an end in the UK. So I left, I think, in August. I never filed a tax return for that year. When I came back in South Africa, I tried to make contact with HMRC, which is Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs. I tried to look for advice. I went through debt advisors. I almost went bankrupt just to try and like... Break down what's happening there, but I didn't forget it, but I was like, well, I'm trying my best and I can't get through with this, you know? And all this time went past. And then about like a year and a half ago, out of nowhere, the South African Revenue Service just cleaned out my whole business account, took all my money out of my business accounts.

• 17:55Speaker 02

  And they said they're doing a collection on behalf of HMRC. And it turns out they've been charging me penalties from 2017 up until now, and it's gained so much interest.

• 18:06Ramit Sethi?

  That's the remainder roughly eighteen thousand dollars of that past tax debt.

• 18:14Speaker 02

  Debt.

• 18:14Ramit Sethi?

  Including penalties, et cetera.

• 18:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:17Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 18:17Speaker 02

  Which may be erased, we're in the process, it might all be dropped.

• 18:20Ramit Sethi?

  All right, let's look at the income. Travis, can you tell me the combined gross monthly income, please?

• 18:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure. It's ten thousand eight hundred eighty-eight dollars.

• 18:32Ramit Sethi?

  All right. So that means that combined annually, the two of you make approximately a hundred and thirty thousand dollars.

• 18:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:40Ramit Sethi?

  Who knew that number?

• 18:41Speaker 02

  But I kind of knew like what my weekly is and her weekly, so I think this goes back to.

• 18:46Ramit Sethi?

  That's a no. And Romi's shaking her head no. So nobody knew how much they actually make per year. Okay. Fair enough. Thank you for continuing my statistics. Fifty percent of the couples on this show do not know how much their annual income is. So what do you think that suggests? I'm not blaming you. I certainly don't mean for anyone to feel ignorant or stupid. That's never the intention. What do you think it implies that neither of you knew your annual income? Romi?

• 19:18Speaker 01

  Um, that we don't really have like a grip on what's going on.

• 19:22Ramit Sethi?

  Yes. What else? Travis?

• 19:24Speaker 02

  Almost shows a level of care, like it's almost like we don't care.

• 19:27Ramit Sethi?

  Yes. And of the things you talk about when it comes to money, the things you worry about or disagree about, what do those things typically focus on? Like the five dollar tip to the parking attendant, tiny, tiny amounts of money versus the big picture?

• 19:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, I get it.

• 19:50Ramit Sethi?

  As you kind of reflect on the conversations you have about money, think about the differences in what you talk about versus what you don't talk about. What percentage of those things are about tiny, small items, minute, let's say, under a hundred bucks, under 200 bucks versus retirement, asset allocation? What's the percentage difference, Romy? What do you think?

• 20:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, like I'm in 100% focused on smaller numbers that, yeah, it's not actually going to make a big difference, your latte, like you say, once a day in the grand scheme of things.

• 20:26Ramit Sethi?

  Not to dismiss those small things, the small things represent something bigger. I understand that, but also you could spend the rest of your life agonizing over three, four, five dollar expenses and actually get nowhere.

• 20:42Ramit Sethi?

  And so, right here, just seeing that neither of you focus on your annual income, which actually tells you so much. Should a couple that makes $130,000 be able to give somebody a $5 donation or a $5 tip? Yes, yes, they should technically, assuming that they know their key numbers and they have a plan. But if you don't, I can completely understand why you will really both argue in the weeds. Okay, but let's continue going forward. Your fixed costs are 76%. What do you think of that number?

• 21:20Speaker 02

  That's high.

• 21:21Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. Romy?

• 21:24Speaker 01

  Very high.

• 21:25Ramit Sethi?

  You know, it's interesting, looking at it, your rent or mortgage is about 20% of your income. At least for the US, doesn't seem that high. Your insurance, okay, it's a little high, but not crazy. You put your eating out in fixed costs. I wouldn't have done that, but that's okay. I don't mind it.

• 21:45Speaker 01

  I wasn't sure where to put it. Sorry about that.

• 21:47Ramit Sethi?

  That's okay. I would probably put it under guilt-free spending, but,

• 21:50Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 21:50Ramit Sethi?

  you know, it's not a big deal. Your groceries are $1,114 a month. That's, that's quite a bit. Is that typical for your area?

• 21:59Speaker 02

  No, this is down to me because there hasn't been a budget. So we have a luxurious store very close to where we live and it's high-end everything, nice meat.

• 22:08Ramit Sethi?

  Alright, so you can cut this by how much?

• 22:10Speaker 01

  We, we've got a Costco budget, but we shall be at Whole Foods. That's best.

• 22:13Ramit Sethi?

  Very good. Could you cut that down a lot if you wanted to?

• 22:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, we could.

• 22:17Ramit Sethi?

  That's all I need to know. Your phone, whatever, and your subscriptions. Okay. There's a little bit of fat we can work with here. Fine. Let's continue moving to the rest of the CSP. Romy, what's that number next to investments?

• 22:29Speaker 01

  So I basically just opened up a tax-free saver link to S and P 500 and that's all I've had to put in it so far.

• 22:36Ramit Sethi?

  1%?

• 22:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:38Ramit Sethi?

  Uh huh. And the rest of your investments? Okay, that's it. So you have, for the last month, you've put $45 in it and that is the extent of your current investments. Okay. And finally, we have guilt-free spending at 19%. I'm not sure I believe that number. Do you believe that number?

• 22:59Speaker 02

  No.

• 22:59Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Okay, good. We're all on the same page. Okay. The number is definitely higher than that. Do we all agree on that?

• 23:06Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 23:06Ramit Sethi?

  Yes. Okay. What are you spending for guilt-free spending? Just like on, on what things? Is it travel? I see some beauty products here. What are we talking about?

• 23:15Speaker 02

  I think part of our guilt-free spending leaks over into our grocery spending because we just buy what we want. If I feel like steak tonight, I get steak tonight. If I feel like fish tomorrow, we get fish tomorrow.

• 23:24Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, so food is one. What else?

• 23:26Speaker 01

  Eating out?

• 23:27Ramit Sethi?

  Eating out?

• 23:27Speaker 02

  Eat, eating out. Coffee. We drink a lot of coffee.

• 23:31Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. How much is a black coffee cost there?

• 23:34Speaker 02

  About $3. $2 or $3, yeah.

• 23:37Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. And what about like a specialty drink, some type of latte? What does that cost?

• 23:42Speaker 02

  Not much more. They try and pull you in by not charging you that much more for a luxury drink, like maybe like 30 cents more or something.

• 23:49Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, alright. And how many coffees, uh, would you say on a given week you might be ordering?

• 23:57Speaker 02

  We could easily go through, I'd say at least like between five and 10 coffees each a week.

• 24:02Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 24:03Speaker 02

  Going out together, so, yeah.

• 24:04Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, fine. What else?

• 24:06Speaker 01

  Just eating out.

• 24:07Ramit Sethi?

  Eating out. Travel?

• 24:09Speaker 02

  No, we used to.

• 24:10Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 24:11Speaker 02

  But now there's no money.

• 24:12Ramit Sethi?

  When did you stop? Was it uh, was it two weeks ago that you stopped traveling?

• 24:16Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, no, no, no. We actually, no, like, we were naughty. We actually went to Seychelles at the end of 2023. And then we love it so much. We use our credit cards and when we went back to Seychelles in debt in 2024, June, July. So we've been doing so.

• 24:29Ramit Sethi?

  That's like one year ago. What are we talking about here? The way you talked about it, we used to travel in 4000 B.C. We traveled.

• 24:35Speaker 02

  It does feel.

• 24:36Ramit Sethi?

  Haven't traveled since then. It was one year ago.

• 24:38Speaker 02

  It does feel like that. Well, we've, no, we've bought a flat since then. And we're literally gonna get another land. We're in the process of busy buying as well. So we're like leveraging the debt kind of, you know, because I think that Romy is so worried about saving. So she's like getting property. We're trying to get property because then at least we're gonna put our money towards something.

• 24:56Ramit Sethi?

  What the is happening right now? We just went from talking about three dollar coffees to leveraging debt to buy property when you have forty five dollars invested. What is happening?

• 25:04Speaker 02

  She's so worried about me not saving that she wants something to show for our savings.

• 25:09Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Can I understand a little bit about this land purchase that you referred to? So. Are you buying land to build property on?

• 25:21Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 25:22Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, how much does it cost?

• 25:25Speaker 02

  It's gonna cost about 2.5 million rand, which is about like, I think a hundred and um, thirty thousand dollars or something like that.

• 25:34Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, hundred and thirty K.

• 25:36Speaker 02

  A hundred and thirty K plus minus, but K pounds booming at the moment. So whatever happens, we'll be able to make at least another a hundred thirty thousand on top if we sign it. Because there's this crazy property, yeah, yeah.

• 25:49Ramit Sethi?

  And you're taking out debt to buy the land, correct?

• 25:53Speaker 02

  Yes, a mortgage, a house mortgage.

• 25:55Ramit Sethi?

  What's the interest rate on that? Same ten, ten point five percent?

• 25:58Speaker 02

  I think so, yeah.

• 25:59Ramit Sethi?

  How did you come to the decision to do this? Who decided?

• 26:02Speaker 02

  I think both of us. We are living in a flat now where we're renting. And we're not happy. There's no sunshine. So we're like trying to figure out like how we're gonna get sunshine. We own a flat in the same block here, just above here, and Romy's done a good job of Airbnb-ing it. And actually paid our whole bond. We haven't put one payment into our mortgage since.

• 26:21Ramit Sethi?

  Hold on, hold on, hold on. Romy, you own an Airbnb?

• 26:24Speaker 02

  Eh, we own a flat together.

• 26:26Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, the two of you own a flat together, which you use, you rent out on Airbnb. Does that make money?

• 26:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, it pays the bond.

• 26:33Speaker 01

  All of it's, it's, um, what do you call it? Cash flow positive?

• 26:37Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, it's cash flow positive, okay. Is that reflected in the conscious spending plan?

• 26:41Speaker 01

  I believe it is. If you, if you go back.

• 26:44Ramit Sethi?

  Let me put it back up on screen.

• 26:46Speaker 01

  So if you go back to where it says rent mortgage, that rent mortgage is for our Airbnb as well as the property we are renting.

• 26:54Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. And where does the income get reflected? Where's that?

• 26:58Speaker 01

  So in my current monthly income,

• 27:01Ramit Sethi?

  Uh huh.

• 27:02Speaker 01

  A percentage of that is Airbnb income.

• 27:04Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, great. Perfect. Well done. So are you the one making six thousand seven hundred eighty or four thousand one hundred?

• 27:11Speaker 01

  Four thousand one hundred.

• 27:13Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, so a part of that includes the Airbnb income.

• 27:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:18Ramit Sethi?

  Perfect. This eighteen sixty-one is not only for the place that you're currently sitting in right now, but it's also for the flat that is functioning as an Airbnb.

• 27:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:29Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. How much is it throwing off in cash per month?

• 27:32Speaker 01

  It's making about one thousand eight hundred dollars a month.

• 27:36Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, great. Nicely done. That's cash flow positive. Let's go back to the land purchase. So you, you're taking a mortgage for roughly a hundred and thirty thousand dollars to get this land. And then you're going to build on top of it. How much will that cost to build?

• 27:49Speaker 02

  So within the same quotes from the bank, they're giving us a building bond. So the whole thing is going to be about a hundred and thirty thousand dollars. From the land purchase to the build, it's gonna be like a small, tiny, um, situation.

• 28:00Ramit Sethi?

  Cool. And will you rent that out to people?

• 28:04Speaker 02

  We're not sure yet. We first want to see how much time there is. And we want to see what we can do with it. But we kind of feel because of what it is, it's almost like an opportunity. Whatever happens, there's money to be made on it or we could live there.

• 28:17Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. I do want to say. $130,000 is a lot of money, you know, especially relative to the numbers that we are looking at here. I'm a little surprised that you don't know what you're going to do with the property. Because if you're buying it as an investment, then, you know, of course, you would want to have modeled out, hey, is this a good investment? If we are paying $130,000 plus interest plus expenses, how much can we expect to make from it relative to just putting the money in an S and P 500?

• 28:48Speaker 01

  Well, basically, where we currently live, you can't find a free standing house for under $222,000. So our view was that if we decide not to live in it, if we sell it once it's built, then I think we could make about $200,000 if we sell it and it's going to cost us about 130 to make it.

• 29:09Ramit Sethi?

  I want to jump in here quickly because I'm starting to see a pattern with Romy and Travis. Are you seeing it? You can tell a lot about someone by how they answer simple questions. Some people give you a clean, confident answer. Others ramble for three minutes, going on random digressions, and they leave you more confused than when you started. Which is what Romy and Travis do. Chaotic answers, chaotic financial life. It's a big clue. I see the same thing when I'm interviewing people to work at my company. If they give long, rambling answers, their work is likely disorganized. Ramblers, for me, are an instant no hire. Romy and Travis here overcomplicate everything. Their housing, their taxes, even tipping the valet. And I'm pointing this out because it's a major clue.

• 29:54Ramit Sethi?

  This is sloppy thinking, and sloppy thinking hides behind complexity. When you have crisp, clear decisions, when you are decisive, you can answer questions in a single sentence. Let's practice it. See if you can do this. If I asked you, how much do you make? Could you answer that? If I asked you, where do you choose to spend your money? Could you answer that in one sentence? What's your philosophy on money? Can you answer those questions in one sentence? You should be able to. Let's take their land purchase, for example. They dropped a ton of money, but they can't say if it's an investment or a fun project. One minute they're talking about maybe selling it. The next they're upset about the lack of sunlight and they're turning this property into a freestanding tiny home just for them. Even saying it is chaotic.

• 30:37Ramit Sethi?

  It's kind of like trying to untangle a knot that's been gnarled for years. In answer to my question, you want to be able to distinguish between consumption and investment. A house to live in versus a house that will make you money. If something is consumption, like a plate of pasta, all I care about is, does it taste good? I'm not calculating the freaking P/E ratio of Rigatoni. But if it's an investment, then I want to know the ROI benchmarked against something like the S and P 500. I run the numbers because I want data, not feelings. A lot of you talk about your feelings a little bit too much. Stop talking, open up a calculator for God's sake, and let's run some numbers.

• 31:18Ramit Sethi?

  Now, if you know someone who overcomplicates every situation, send them this episode. It can help them become crystal clear. Okay, all right. Let's go back to your numbers. So your current fixed costs per month are $4,900. Just for easy math, let's call it 5,000 bucks. Your savings are $5,500. So you basically have 30 or 40 days worth of savings if something happened. How do you feel about that?

• 31:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not happy about it. We've had some serious fights, my wife and I. And I've really understood now where I've like squeezed my wife emotionally. She's fatigued, it's everything. And it's all down to the fact that like I'm reckless with our money. I've known that I've got to sort it out and I don't have the answer why I haven't sorted it out. I just kind of same story, just go fishing and get in your boat, go fishing. It's gonna be okay.

• 32:07Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. What do you do if you run out of savings?

• 32:09Speaker 02

  We hustle. Basically, yeah, we sell stuff, we like go on Facebook market. Romi's got an eye for furniture especially. She can see something that's really cheap and solid for like five times the price.

• 32:19Ramit Sethi?

  It's quite striking that when I ask you, what would you do if you ran out of savings? Your answer is Romi would go on Facebook Marketplace.

• 32:27Speaker 02

  Oof, got you.

• 32:29Ramit Sethi?

  The question is to you, Travis. What would you do if you run out of savings, which you're about 35 days away from doing?

• 32:36Speaker 02

  I'd go to work. I'd go cut some more trees.

• 32:39Ramit Sethi?

  Why don't you just do that right now?

• 32:40Speaker 02

  I'm doing it now.

• 32:42Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, so you just do what you're doing?

• 32:44Speaker 02

  Ah, yeah, I I go get more money. I go back to work.

• 32:47Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Travis, did you grow up poor?

• 32:49Speaker 02

  Both, rich and poor.

• 32:52Ramit Sethi?

  Tell me.

• 32:53Speaker 02

  Okay, so my parents divorced at five and my mother remarried, I think, at about about thirteen. And my mom and my stepdad did pretty well. It was like the sort of before the dot com boom and like he was into I T with I B M and stuff. And my mom had a few companies. So they didn't really matter. My dad was poor. My dad was in the Navy. They left the Navy. So my dad was always like a poor sort of peanut butter and white bread. Whereas my mom was kind of like, think big, you know, you can do it, you can manifest, get whatever you need, like go for it. I went to quite a privileged high school. I could get whatever I wanted, but by the age of sixteen, seventeen, the cracks started to appear with my mom and my stepdad. They got divorced. And then my stepfather paid for my higher education of schooling and stuff.

• 33:38Speaker 02

  And my mother took that money from the house and basically spent it all. And then since I was about like twenty, twenty one, my mother's always done badly financially.

• 33:46Ramit Sethi?

  Wow, that's quite a story with a lot of different forces pulling at you. What did your mom spend the money from the house on?

• 33:56Speaker 02

  Anything you wanted, like literally, like, like whatever you want, man, like we're gonna go have a super expensive meal. We're gonna go buy whatever skateboard I wanted, whatever B M X I wanted. Because I went to a very expensive school as well, it was like keeping up with the Johnsons, you know, like. I I went to a school where like some kids were arriving to school with a helicopter. And then another father didn't like that. So then he would rent a big helicopter to then fly his son onto the pitch, you know, it was like that sort of like boom, I'm here. So it was difficult. The cracks started to appear because like here I am at this prestigious high school. Everyone's got so much money and like my mom's money is running out. But when I say anything and everything, my mother always had a new car, whatever we wanted, man, and it was cash.

• 34:39Speaker 02

  She she sold the house and she had cash. She had literally a million rand in like two thousand and one. It was a lot of money, like by today's standard, it's probably like about almost two million dollars, something like that. So she literally

• 34:52Ramit Sethi?

  Wow.

• 34:53Speaker 02

  went for it and she went to spend it all.

• 34:55Ramit Sethi?

  And her financial situation now?

• 34:58Speaker 02

  Very bad, very bad. Terrible, but thankfully she's about two years away from earning a property. Small, modest property, but two years away. But she nearly lost it about three or four times in the twenty years.

• 35:10Ramit Sethi?

  Hmm. What lessons do you take away as you look back at your childhood all the way to your teenage years with money?

• 35:18Speaker 02

  I feel that's quite irresponsible, the way that money was spent when I was younger. And there was no accountability for your actions. And I don't want to be the same, like I don't want to follow in the pathway of my mom and dad. I need to start to implement like systems like now. So that in ten years' time, twenty years' time, I'm not in the same position.

• 35:40Speaker 01

  Obviously, there's reasons I think he has the certain views he has on money, you know? But we've never actually spoken about it like, hey, you know, why do you think you look at money like that? So hearing him talk about it was good to hear.

• 35:54Ramit Sethi?

  Hmm. You mentioned to my producer, you said, I feel like I'm always carrying it alone.

• 36:02Speaker 01

  Uh uh.

• 36:03Ramit Sethi?

  What did you mean by that?

• 36:04Speaker 01

  I mean that I talk about it and it just like slides away and then gets me nowhere. Or I'm lying up at night, I'm so anxious, I'm worried about my mom, like we don't have savings. Can we do something? And then he says, yes, okay. And then nothing ever changes. So I feel like I am carrying it alone because I am the one who's like worrying about it. And like actively like seeing where I can change things.

• 36:31Ramit Sethi?

  In those types of conversations that you have with Travis, can you zoom up for just a second? Almost as if you're floating and looking at the two of you talking. Imagine that that is a game, a game of chess or checkers. What is your position? In other words, what is your role in conversations like that? How would you describe it?

• 36:53Speaker 01

  Maybe like a like nagging?

• 36:55Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, nagging, what else?

• 36:57Speaker 01

  Sometimes I'm even like begging, like, hey, please, please. Like I can't dance anymore, like I'm like exhausted, please, you know, like.

• 37:06Ramit Sethi?

  Can you finish the sentence, please what?

• 37:09Speaker 01

  Please can you work with me and can we make some changes? Please can we plan something?

• 37:14Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 37:15Speaker 01

  Please can we think of the future? If Travis dies tomorrow, like I gotta take care of my mom. I gotta pay this, how am I gonna do it?

• 37:22Ramit Sethi?

  Got it. So please get involved with me? Is that it?

• 37:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yes.

• 37:29Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. So you you would describe your position or the dynamic as you begging, nagging? Is there anything else?

• 37:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think lately I've become a bit like, almost like hopeless. I've tried the money, like the wallet system. Okay, let's draw cash and let's only spend this for the week. You know, that doesn't work. I've tried the one account. That doesn't work. So I've almost like at this point for me, I'm like, I actually don't know what else to say or do or try. Like, I'm not sure.

• 37:55Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Travis, I'd like to ask you to zoom up as well. Look at this dynamic happening in these types of conversations. What is your position? What role are you playing?

• 38:06Speaker 02

  I'm playing, yeah, man. It's okay, I'll get it done.

• 38:10Ramit Sethi?

  Ah, and can you articulate that for me? What is that role? How would you describe that?

• 38:15Speaker 02

  It'll be wake up tomorrow, have a coffee. I gotta get to work, get my guys. Cool, we go to work. Then the day starts again, then notifications go crazy. Then I get home late. I I heard what you said last night, but she looks fine to me now, man. Let's just cook the food, eat the food and carry on with the rest of the evening. And then go to bed and then the same thing will happen. And then life starts again and then come home. Same situation, tired and then make something to eat and then don't put the plan together.

• 38:40Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, what is the role that you are playing? When you say, hey, it's okay. What is your position? What is the role you're playing?

• 38:49Speaker 02

  Like an unsupportive husband.

• 38:51Ramit Sethi?

  I think that's probably true, but in your head, you would never describe yourself as an unsupportive husband. When Romy is saying like, can we please talk about this? Can we please make a plan? My mom, your mom, and you are saying, hey, it's gonna be fine. Worse comes to worse, I'll go fishing. What role are you playing?

• 39:12Speaker 02

  Is it an avoider? Is that what you, is that what you're looking for?

• 39:14Ramit Sethi?

  I think you're trying to reassure her. It's gonna be fine.

• 39:17Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 39:18Ramit Sethi?

  You're gonna be, yeah, it's gonna be fine. Look, we've, we've been in tough times before. It's gonna be fine.

• 39:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:24Ramit Sethi?

  Reassuring her so that this conversation ends.

• 39:33Ramit Sethi?

  Romy is nodding her head.

• 39:34Speaker 02

  I'm not laughing at you, eh? Like, when I get nervous, I laugh. When I get nervous, I laugh. So this is what happens.

• 39:39Ramit Sethi?

  I don't mind that, but I'm, I don't care about that, actually. I'm focused right now on Romy. Romy?

• 39:44Speaker 01

  Yes, that's exactly it. Like, what can I say or do to get out of this conversation? So we never have to talk about it again.

• 39:49Ramit Sethi?

  That's right. The idea of sometimes I, the reassure, the avoider who uses a series of conscious and unconscious techniques to avoid money, will say anything. Okay, I hear you, babe. Okay, I'm gonna do better. Okay, uh, I'll put $10 aside. Okay, okay, okay. How familiar is this to both of you?

• 40:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's it.

• 40:16Ramit Sethi?

  Exactly. Not only is this part of the repertoire of an avoider, which I describe in the book, but we see this specialized dynamic, the reassure, or what I call the ignorant reassure. It's almost always a man, because men often see their job, their role in a heterosexual relationship is to calm her down. Oh, she's spinning up. I need to calm it down, because I'm the level-headed one. I don't want to get too emotional. So they'll say like, it's gonna be fine. Don't worry. And if someone were talking to me like that, okay? I, I would actually feel more emotional. Like, no, you don't understand. It's actually not going to be okay.

• 41:00Ramit Sethi?

  So now we've established the boundaries. The more she says, I'm worried, the more Travis goes, it's going to be fine. And then the more Romy goes, it's actually not going to be fine. So we have this dynamic. And let's add on one additional wrinkle. Travis is ignorant of the numbers. Right? You don't know the number. So you are the ignorant reassure. I don't use that phrase to be pejorative. It's not meant as an insult. Simply to describe the dynamic or the game that is being played.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  I would say that it's accurate. And hearing it, I don't know why, I feel some like, earnest to myself. Like, maybe I didn't ask the right way. Or maybe I could have like, tried something different to make him listen to me. But looking back over the years, like, I have tried quite a few different ways. It makes me feel, I guess it kind of makes me feel like her, talking about it now.

• 41:56Ramit Sethi?

  That's good. And Romy, I think you raised a great question. Maybe there were ways you could have talked about it differently. Honestly, I think there probably are. But my guess is even if you had talked to Travis in the perfect textbook way,

• 42:12Ramit Sethi?

  it might still not have changed anything. Travis, what do you feel hearing this dynamic? And what do you think of it?

• 42:22Speaker 02

  I'm upset. I'm upset hearing it spelled out to me. And I'm upset that my wife feels that way. And I've never called her a nagger. And I also agree with you. I feel that someone's sound like they're nagging because of something that's being done to them. So I've made her feel this way. So I'm a bit embarrassed, if I'm honest, and even in the last few days, I'm really feeling a bit numb. Because I think that the realization of what's been going on. But again, also positive because I want to change it as well.

• 42:55Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, I can hear that. The numb part is striking. I think sometimes if you realize the depths of what is actually going on here. And there's no more hiding behind the layers of defense that we often put up. The depths can make it really scary because you realize, oh, my God, this is not just a say something nice and everything changes tomorrow. It actually requires years and years of work. That's a scary moment and one predictable reaction to that is numbness.

• 43:29Ramit Sethi?

  So I hear you loud and clear. Travis, have you always given money generously to other people?

• 43:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, I have.

• 43:39Speaker 01

  I get a bit upset sometimes that it's like every time we go out, it seems like he thinks we have a lot more than we have. For example, there was a time like every time we saw my mom and sister, he would pay for everything. And I actually spoke to him about it's like my sister works too like she she needs to pay if she's gonna come out with us and then the last few times he did listen to me I don't pay which made me feel like really good that he had listened to me and um she did pay for in her meal and it was a nice moment where I felt heard.

• 44:10Ramit Sethi?

  That's cool, especially promising is the fact that you talked about it and that there was change. That's really good. That's like a huge sign that there can be very positive changes here. Travis, I want you to understand this tendency of paying for other people, whether it's people who are underprivileged, whether it's just people around you. What do you think is underneath that pattern? I believe that it's probably directly impacting part of what's happening here.

• 44:37Speaker 02

  What's part of the problem? Why do I do it? You have a question?

• 44:39Ramit Sethi?

  Why do you do it?

• 44:40Speaker 02

  You know, like, I I just don't like seeing underprivileged people especially.

• 44:45Ramit Sethi?

  How about your sister-in-law? She's not underprivileged.

• 44:47Speaker 02

  No, she's not, but my wife, like, coming up now in the next few days is my wife's anniversary of her father's death and like with the father's death like shook the family so badly. So I feel I'm the only man in the family now. They've got nobody else and I always feel like if he was here, how would he want me to be, you know, and I feel like spoiling the old duck every now and then and buying or something, even if I can't afford it, I feel like with the mom actually like how would I be if he was here? And that's why sometimes I pay for my sister's dinner.

• 45:18Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, hold on. First of all, what's an old duck?

• 45:22Speaker 02

  My my no, my my no.

• 45:24Ramit Sethi?

  Is this an insult? Is it? I I need to know.

• 45:27Speaker 02

  No, it's not. It's

• 45:30Speaker 02

  not very good.

• 45:32Ramit Sethi?

  What in the hell is happening right now? I can't call anybody an old duck, but I do love these phrases I've never heard. So this idea Travis is quite interesting that you're the only man in the family. And can you just complete the sentence for me? A man, when it comes to money, his job is to be?

• 45:54Ramit Sethi?

  Provider. Provider. Okay, we hear, so this is worldwide, everybody. Everybody around the world. Ah, yes, the old script, man as provider. Almost every single man I've ever talked to sees himself this way. But we also have other ones. Avoider, check. Ignorant reassure, check. One thing to note is that these terms are descriptive, not prescriptive. This is really important concept. These terms help us identify patterns, but they don't have to predict the future because you can change. The problem is, a lot of people hear a label and they let it become a life sentence. They'll say, well, I'm just an avoider. I'm just a dreamer. I'm not good with money.

• 46:39Ramit Sethi?

  And then that becomes the script that they use to justify their decisions. You know, I hear people describe themselves as introverts, as if that means they can't enjoy being around people. That's not even what the word introvert means. I want you to be very careful about labeling yourself because once you do, it is very likely that that label is going to turn into your self fulfilling prophecy. I made this mistake when I used to call myself skinny Indian guy. I shouldn't have even joked about it because it actually became something that I fulfilled for decades. Now I know I decide who I am. And so does anyone who truly wants to live a rich life. Listen now as I gently push him to align his behavior with his future vision.

• 47:22Ramit Sethi?

  But Travis, the thing is, right now, you have about a month's worth of savings. You're right, yeah. Sometimes the vision and the identity that we want to have is simply not reality with who we are today. And that doesn't mean it can't change, right? Somebody wants to have 15% body fat or they want to be extremely good at bowling. They might not be that today. They can be it tomorrow, but it requires dedicated, long-term work, plan, discipline, all of those things. Do you see the connection with your spending? For other people and how it's not really working for your finances.

• 48:03Speaker 02

  When you keep telling me like I've got thirty days left, like that's now starting to go in my mind. I've never thought about it like that. I've never thought I've got thirty days left.

• 48:12Speaker 01

  Travis has lost everything that he's had once or twice, so he doesn't mind losing everything again. So for him, it doesn't matter if like tomorrow he's on the street because he'll just pick up the pieces and be fine. So that's one of the things.

• 48:25Ramit Sethi?

  That's classic with poor people. They even say the exact phrase here. I've heard it many times on this podcast. I've been poor before. I can be poor again. Doesn't bother me. Well, that's one thing if that's just you and you're living on your own, but if you have a wife and you have an extended family, that's actually not okay anymore. And who's left to pick up the mess? Romy. Now, I'm not saying Travis, that you're the only one responsible for your financial situation. There's two of you in this relationship. Romy, you have articulated, you have an inability to say no. You have shared that you also participate in spending money on things like groceries and eating out. So I don't want to leave that aside. It's something worth talking about, but these are the root causes.

• 49:10Ramit Sethi?

  And obviously you could trace back a lot of it to how you were raised and parents and schooling and all of those things. The fact is you can be a generous person, but it might not be with money right now. Are there other ways to be generous, Travis?

• 49:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course there are.

• 49:28Ramit Sethi?

  Like?

• 49:28Speaker 02

  Loads, man. There's loads of ways to be generous. I mean, you can wash, I can wash my mother-in-law's car. There's like, I mean, the list goes on, man. I can go fetch her groceries. I can think of many.

• 49:39Ramit Sethi?

  Perfect. Perfect. I love that adaptability. You can still fulfill the identity that you want to fulfill as generous, but it doesn't necessarily have to be with money because you don't have extra money. Simply. Okay. Romy, you opened a secret savings account in the UK.

• 49:59Ramit Sethi?

  I learned that you told my producer. I'm very curious about it. Can you tell me why, first of all, you felt the need to have a secret account?

• 50:07Speaker 01

  Well, basically because we don't have any savings. It made me feel anxious that we're both freelancers. And if my contract ends or if Travis hurts himself or something happens, if I told him about it straight away, I'd ask to use some of the money from it or go on holiday with her, something like that. I was concerned. And then I watched one of your episodes where you talked about how it's not the right reasoning to hide something like that from your partner. And then I told him about it.

• 50:35Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. How did that conversation go?

• 50:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, she told me and I said, that's fine. I love you.

• 50:40Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Is that savings account reflected in the conscious spending plan?

• 50:43Speaker 01

  Because we use savings as part of the deposit when we bought the Airbnb apartment last year.

• 50:49Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, you took the savings money and put it towards the Airbnb?

• 50:54Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 50:55Ramit Sethi?

  I see. How much money was in that account?

• 50:57Speaker 01

  I think about $4,000.

• 50:59Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. So you took the $4,000, you put it into the down payment. Okay.

• 51:05Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 51:05Ramit Sethi?

  So how much do you have in your own personal savings now, Romy?

• 51:09Speaker 01

  So I had about $3,000 and we've put it towards the down payment of this land that Travis told you about.

• 51:16Ramit Sethi?

  Help me understand it. You mentioned you started this secret account because you didn't have any savings and you were worried that

• 51:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 51:24Ramit Sethi?

  Travis might like spend it on holiday. The money has now been put towards two different properties.

• 51:31Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 51:32Ramit Sethi?

  So like, worst case, if you needed the money, how could you get it?

• 51:37Speaker 01

  Hmm. There's no way to get it. No.

• 51:41Ramit Sethi?

  So while I don't agree with having secret accounts, and I'm really glad you heard that prior podcast episode and shared it. I do think transparency is good. I'm all for each partner having their own individual account that only they have access to. It just can't be a secret. What I'm hearing, Romy, though, is that that money is not individual anymore. It's been intermingled with the family finances and it's put on these different properties.

• 52:07Speaker 01

  Hmm. I guess it's probably not what you wanna hear, but I felt that if we had a property and it had like an amount that has to come every month,

• 52:17Ramit Sethi?

  Mm-hmm.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  it's almost like a way to make Travis save, you know, because I saw that with my parents renting a house for twenty-five years. The day my dad died, my mom had nothing.

• 52:27Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 52:28Speaker 01

  No, no savings, no place, she still has no place to live if we weren't helping her. So in a sense, maybe it's not the right reasoning, but the property almost feels like a bit of a security for me, like, okay, at the end of the day, the bull's gonna come and Travis will feel like he has to pay that, but he doesn't feel like he has to save or invest.

• 52:49Ramit Sethi?

  Mm-hmm. Forced savings is how people describe it. Yeah. Honestly, this is why I love this podcast. When you just see numbers on a page, it's almost impossible to understand how someone made the choices they made. But once you hear their story and their history and their upbringing, suddenly things start to make more sense. Because people make very peculiar decisions when it comes to money. And those decisions almost always trace back to something much deeper, often something much more hidden. Romy kept a secret savings account. Not to splurge, not for a vacation. She hid it from her husband because she didn't trust him financially. And then she used that same money, the secret account, as a down payment on their house.

• 53:34Ramit Sethi?

  Now, this only makes sense when you realize what she was really trying to do. Force savings. Travis doesn't save, he doesn't invest, he avoids money entirely. So for Romy, buying a house wasn't just about ROI. In a way, it was damage control. She figured, if I can't get him to engage, at least I know he'll make the mortgage payment. Okay, I gotta say, I appreciate the honesty. A lot of people actually do the exact same thing. They use real estate to force discipline for saving money. They know they won't consistently invest. They won't even set up an automatic transfer like in chapter five of I Will Teach You To Be Rich. I don't know why, but okay. So they tell themselves, at least I'll pay the mortgage. I've done things like this too.

• 54:18Ramit Sethi?

  Weird, slightly irrational systems just to make sure that I follow through. For example, I'm the one who sends the agenda for my monthly money meetings with my wife Cassandra. And in the past, I've had times where I skipped that meeting. I was not prepared for it. I didn't even follow through with it. So now I set multiple calendar reminders. It is literally the only thing in my entire calendar that I double up on. Why? Because I know myself, I don't want to mess it up again, and I'm going to find a way to guarantee that I send the agenda and I am there and prepared for our money meetings. So sometimes you do what it takes, even if it looks a little strange from the outside,

• 55:00Ramit Sethi?

  in order to make your life work the way you want it to. Romy's choices weren't necessarily financially sound. My calendar choices are not the most productive, and yet, once you uncover the dynamics underneath, in her case, the mistrust, the avoidance, you can start to understand how she got here. Now, listen as I show them a little bit of the nuances and flaws in this logic. Well, uh, let's find out. Travis, has Romy's hypothesis worked out?

• 55:31Speaker 02

  Well, we are definitely putting money away. I mean, Airbnb made all the money, but I think this month might be the first month we've got to put money in it, which we will have to do. So I guess we don't have a choice, you know? Otherwise, they'll take it away from us.

• 55:45Ramit Sethi?

  Hmm. Where's the money going to come from for the Airbnb?

• 55:48Speaker 02

  We've got another sort of two weeks left, so from my work and Romy's work. So Romy gets paid at the month, and I do work daily. So I mean, even today, we turned over about 200 or 250 left over, and then the rest of this wee week will work.

• 56:03Ramit Sethi?

  Can I tell you, it all seems a little stressful.

• 56:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:07Ramit Sethi?

  Like, if you two were making $40,000 a year, okay. I could understand, we're here talking about, oh, where's the 200 bucks coming from? Two of you make $130,000 a year, and it's like, your Airbnb is going to require some money put into it. Where's the money coming from? I gotta work extra and then there's this 200 bucks. This is very stressful and it actually is just another example of living week to week. You can't get ahead if you're playing down at this level. You know the game whack a mole? You know those things pop up and you hit them?

• 56:41Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 56:42Ramit Sethi?

  Little kids play it. That's like this financial whack a mole. Oh, we got this Airbnb expense. We gotta pay for mom's thing. Whack, whack. And you never actually build your finances to something true, something systemic. Romy is nodding. I know you understand, Romy. Travis, what do you think about that?

• 57:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, I agree. You know, it's nice to have a stranger like spell the words out. Um, cause when I hear, when I hear what you say, I can't believe what I'm hearing.

• 57:10Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, yeah. The idea of, um, if things get really bad, we'll sell furniture.

• 57:16Speaker 02

  It's terrible. Yeah. I mean, as you say, no, I know. And I agree. And we're both highly skilled. We both got a skill that's like in demand, you know? And that's also why to hear what you're saying, it shouldn't be this way.

• 57:27Ramit Sethi?

  I agree. You both have in-demand skills. I don't think you're managing your money in the way that a couple making a hundred and thirty thousand dollars would.

• 57:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, I agree.

• 57:35Ramit Sethi?

  Travis, when the government took money directly out of your account for the past due taxes, how did you feel?

• 57:44Speaker 02

  I swear it felt like my heart had been like ripped out of my body and my stomach. And I think the main reason was I was so scared to tell Romy. And I had to tell her because I know what it's going to do to her, you know? Like me, straight away, I'm like trying to figure out how am I going to make this work? I'm, I've got wages to pay, but I remember driving up the hill and like on the way to where I was going. Like, I'm like, how am I going to tell my wife this? Like, that I'm having a heart attack.

• 58:08Ramit Sethi?

  Romy, how about you? What was the feeling when he told you about that?

• 58:11Speaker 01

  I felt a bit disappointed because I had been asking him like, hey, please can we do a bit more to follow up on this? So yeah, I felt quite disappointed, I'd say.

• 58:24Ramit Sethi?

  Travis, what's the plan to take care of the debt?

• 58:27Speaker 02

  So we're speaking to HMRC now. We have like a lot of, um, had a lot of interaction. We sent them to return probably about two months ago, three months ago. Then they sent it back because they hadn't included a piece of paper that should have been signed. We have this all recorded on emails.

• 58:44Ramit Sethi?

  Not what's the process, what's the plan?

• 58:46Speaker 02

  So I'm waiting for this, the paper to come from the UK. I've got to then sign a piece of paper, then the return goes back. Once the return goes back, then we can negotiate if they can squash the penalties. We're going through lawyers. So off the cards, not that to go work there. That's kind of at the moment as far as we go. I mean, what about selling the property? Cause it'll make about 500,000, oh, call that, babe. I just, it's a thought because there's about a 500,000 rand, a 500,000 rand surplus already. We had it evaluated. So we bought it for 2.350 and it's now valued at 2.8. So I thought about selling a property to then squash debt and then kind of, I wouldn't say start again, but it's almost like having a position to start where I'm not in minus money, minus money.

• 59:28Ramit Sethi?

  How come there's no discussion about eating out less?

• 59:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, Romy has, Romy definitely.

• 59:33Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. What about you Travis?

• 59:35Speaker 02

  No, I haven't. Um, I, I just, yeah.

• 59:38Ramit Sethi?

  You know what I hear? I hear, first of all, there's some options. Okay. You got the process moving with the accountants. Okay, great. All of these are what I might describe as things that dreamers often describe. Like salvation is one gig away. If this deal comes through and that deal, and if we can sell this thing and then that thing happens. And it's just these whack a moles. It's just these discreet things that heaven and earth have to perfectly align in order for it to work. And then we can pay it all off. But you'll notice, cause Travis, I do think you are a combination of an avoider and a dreamer. Dreamers, they never actually look at day to day spending and say, oh, we should probably cut our eating out by 40 to 50%. It's always out there on the horizon.

• 1:00:22Ramit Sethi?

  Like it's a dream rather than the reality of what we are currently spending. We should actually make systemic changes to it. Do you notice that Travis?

• 1:00:34Speaker 02

  I do now that you're saying it.

• 1:00:36Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Okay, Romi, what do you think about that?

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree with what you're saying. And I kind of feel like, as he said that, I'm like, hey, why do we have to sell the property? Like, why can't we just not eat the best fill it steak every night? And not eat out all the time? Like, why do, you know, why does it have to be like, I just feel sometimes when I speak with her, it's so black and white, like all or nothing. Like, it can't be like a consistent small thing that makes a big difference.

• 1:01:03Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. This is, this is one of the root causes here. This idea that it's got to be all or nothing. The idea that, oh, like, whatever we're dealing with on our day to day, that's actually not going to make a big difference because the debt is so big, the problems are so large, we actually need this massive thing. We need to move to a different country and start earning money there. We need to negotiate this massive thing. That's just one example of whack a mole, and you will go your entire life playing that game. Reality, building a rich life is found in what you do every single month. It's boring, it's consistent. We paused so that you could feed your dog, right? Yeah. How often you feed your dog? Every day.

• 1:01:45Ramit Sethi?

  Why don't you just feed your dog once a year? Put it all in a big old pile, say, good luck. Why don't you do that? Yeah, cool. I get it, man. I get it. Romi, I want to ask you, one word that we haven't talked about today is trust. Do you trust Travis as your partner?

• 1:02:00Speaker 01

  In finances?

• 1:02:01Ramit Sethi?

  Yep.

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:02:04Ramit Sethi?

  What would it take for you to trust him?

• 1:02:06Speaker 01

  I think some kind of like reality check of like, this is actually where we're at and like, this is what we're doing. I feel he should educate himself a bit more about finances and have a bit more knowledge about investing and saving. And then almost like you always say to have a system, like as soon as you get paid, you put 20% away. Things like that, I think, would help.

• 1:02:30Ramit Sethi?

  So you want him to get educated. Travis, what would that education look like for you? What would it take for you to get educated about money?

• 1:02:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, I need to read, I'll start by reading your book. I'll start by reading your book.

• 1:02:40Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, that's one. Then what?

• 1:02:42Speaker 02

  And then I need to address the eating arts and also the daily going to buy whatever I want.

• 1:02:50Ramit Sethi?

  How?

• 1:02:51Speaker 02

  I need to, well, as you said, like, we should talk about almost cutting it by forty percent. So not by just going, we're not going to eat anymore, but maybe be more calculated in what I'm spending day to day. Like I said, a challenge that I can maybe do half of what I've been spending. Because that would still be doable. I always buy things that we don't need.

• 1:03:12Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. What do you think, Romy?

• 1:03:14Speaker 01

  I kind of feel like, is it gonna happen? Maybe that's negative, but that's how I feel at the moment because we talk about it and then nothing ever changes and then I'm still that person like, hey, can we try to work on this? So I kind of feel like that in this moment.

• 1:03:29Ramit Sethi?

  I think one of the most painful things in a relationship is being put in the position of having to check up on your partner, having to, as you put it, nag your partner, of having to essentially parent your partner. Hey, little boy, did you tie your shoelaces before? It just invites a toxic dynamic into a relationship. And obviously, there's a lot of love here. I would be willing to bet that that's not the case in other parts of your relationship, aside from finances. The sort of status checking, you know, parent-child dynamic. I don't, I think there are parts of your relationship that doesn't have that at all. Would that be fair to say?

• 1:04:11Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:04:12Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, partners, you know, friends, intimate partners, all those things. But money is so foundational to relationships that when you start to adopt some of those dynamics, it becomes really hard for it not to seep into other parts. Why do I have to check up with my partner on, did they pay this bill? Or did they do X, Y, Z? And that's now making me question every part of the way that we interact. Okay, and I can see from Romy's nodding, that's exactly what's happening here. It happens in many relationships. Travis, I hope what you're hearing is the seriousness when we talk about things like trust. It's far beyond, you know, I need to finish a book. Yeah, you need to finish the book.

• 1:04:57Ramit Sethi?

  You probably need to read three other books as well. But it's not, it is not even about books. But if you hear the words she's used, she's used words like begging. Sometimes I find myself begging. Helpless. She's used words like trust. Is it really gonna change? Those are as serious as it gets in a relationship. Travis, are you hearing those from Romy?

• 1:05:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:20Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, good. Let's talk about what the future looks like. You have mentioned some future goals, including the new house, traveling, making sure moms are taken care of. Now that we have talked together about where you are with your finances today, what would you say your key priorities are?

• 1:05:44Speaker 02

  Our key priorities should be to have enough for more than thirty days.

• 1:05:50Ramit Sethi?

  How much?

• 1:05:51Speaker 02

  A year's worth of savings for my wife and I. And then the money to be allocated into places where it's gonna benefit us. I'm not looking to get like a rich lifestyle. It's more like a normal lifestyle that when Romy goes to the shops, she's not gonna feel anxious about what's in the card because we've allocated money to go to the place where it wants it to go.

• 1:06:09Ramit Sethi?

  Is that it? Those two things?

• 1:06:11Speaker 02

  I think for now, yeah, that's where I'm starting, yeah.

• 1:06:13Ramit Sethi?

  Fine, I don't mind that. Romy, what are your priorities financially speaking?

• 1:06:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would say emergency fund. And like, I'm happy to not eat out for a while. And I feel that we almost need to be quite aggressive with that. And I would like to have some boundaries, if possible, around our spending, like how much, and realistic ones too, how much we should spend on groceries. And if we do treat ourselves once a month to eating out, I think that would help. But I think the key thing is savings and doing it as soon as we get paid and not at the end of the month, once we've used everything. I think that would the first key to helping me sleep better at night.

• 1:06:54Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Let me read back what you both just told me.

• 1:06:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:06:59Ramit Sethi?

  Your financial priorities should be, as you described it, building an emergency fund, allocating your money properly so that there's money in the accounts where needed, and doing it in a systematic fashion. Meaning it's happening automatically. You have rules, you have guidelines, you have boundaries. How do those three priorities sound?

• 1:07:19Speaker 01

  Great.

• 1:07:20Speaker 02

  That's sound very good, yeah.

• 1:07:21Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Have you ever had that conversation with each other?

• 1:07:24Speaker 01

  I've tried to.

• 1:07:26Speaker 02

  I don't remember a conversation like this, but I don't think I was interested. I didn't mean not to be.

• 1:07:32Ramit Sethi?

  Right, that's an honest answer. So, Romy, you say you've tried. You, you try to talk about like, our finances are not in the place they need to be, right? And then Travis, your typical answer, I'm gonna guess is like, I'll just work harder. It's gonna be fine. That type of thing, and then the conversation ends. Is that how it goes?

• 1:07:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's how it goes.

• 1:07:52Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, so this is good to see the patterns of what's been happening. So really, right now, Romy, you approach it in a very sort of beseeching, begging way. Romy goes, no, no, no, no, no, please, it's serious, this is bad. Travis, with a larger wand, I'm using this metaphorically, Travis, I know you don't actually do this. It's fine. We'll be okay. Stop, stop worrying so much. Do you see the dynamic is, it's like a knot. It's tighter the more you pull. What we have done so far today is we have established the severity of the situation. You don't know your own income. You fight about $5 expenses. You have about a month, 40 days worth of expenses if your income stopped. And you have heavy carrying costs.

• 1:08:35Ramit Sethi?

  Not only do you have one other property, you have another property you're building. And by the way, your investments are $45 off of $130,000 income. This is a major problem. Okay? So, once we've established the problem where both of you realize it, not just one, both, then we are now talking about what is the vision? Turns out, your visions are remarkably similar. We need an emergency fund. We wanna allocate our money in a meaningful way, and then we wanna do it in a systematic fashion. Okay?

• 1:09:07Ramit Sethi?

  Shall we take a look at the numbers and try to make some changes?

• 1:09:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:09:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, please, yes, please.

• 1:09:11Ramit Sethi?

  All right. I'm gonna put it on screen. Tell me what change you would like to make. Go ahead, Travis.

• 1:09:17Speaker 02

  Just trying to see from eating out, let's like take it down to what like one fifty or half of that, like one seventy five to start out is.

• 1:09:23Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 1:09:24Speaker 02

  So one seventy five, yeah?

• 1:09:25Ramit Sethi?

  Travis, take note of this number up here. So right now it's seventy six percent.

• 1:09:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:29Ramit Sethi?

  We would ideally like to see that number below sixty percent. Let's take note, you dropped it from three fifty to one seventy five. Your fixed cost dropped from seventy six percent to seventy four percent.

• 1:09:40Speaker 02

  Okay, cool. And then the groceries there, let's start by taking like four hundred dollars off.

• 1:09:46Ramit Sethi?

  Tell me the number to type in.

• 1:09:48Speaker 02

  So type in a seven hundred and fourteen dollars.

• 1:09:51Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. What's the number change to on your fixed costs?

• 1:09:54Speaker 02

  A sixty seven percent.

• 1:09:55Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 1:09:56Speaker 02

  This is cool because basically I've got a gym membership that I'm going to be cancelling because it's an extravagant one. So let's take seventy away because I'm still going to go to the cheaper gym up the road. Please take seventy off the grand total, which they bring it down to two hundred dollars.

• 1:10:09Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, you're at sixty six percent.

• 1:10:11Speaker 02

  Okay, sixty percent. Maybe we've got to take more off eating out, maybe. We can do it, even if we do a challenge. What do you think?

• 1:10:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:19Speaker 02

  Take another seventy five dollars off of that eating out budget.

• 1:10:22Ramit Sethi?

  We're within striking distance. This is quite good. I want to give you a round of applause. That was really cool and very aggressive. Travis, I like seeing you. You physically leaned forward. That's awesome. You were like, okay, we can take this down. Oh, it's not enough. We can take it down even more. That is pretty cool. Romi's smiling over here saying like, wow. I acknowledge what Travis just did. Travis, do you see that level of involvement you're doing there? It's awesome.

• 1:10:48Speaker 02

  Thanks.

• 1:10:48Ramit Sethi?

  It's really cool. So we're at sixty four percent. I want to make sure I get Romi's input here. Romi, is there anything you would change on fixed costs beyond what Travis just did?

• 1:10:57Speaker 01

  I'm not going to remove my gym membership because it's a gym and a office that I work from.

• 1:11:02Speaker 02

  You must know.

• 1:11:03Speaker 01

  So eating out, I guess we could not buy any clothing for the next six months while we.

• 1:11:09Speaker 02

  No, that's too much, baby. I think more, I think more eating out because you're going to challenge. We're going to still need clothes, baby. It's winter, it's going.

• 1:11:15Speaker 01

  Hmm. Maybe you could change the eating out to fifty dollars and we just have, I mean, in South Africa, you can get a really nice meal for that. So we could go out once a month.

• 1:11:24Speaker 02

  Just for now.

• 1:11:25Speaker 01

  Twice a month.

• 1:11:26Ramit Sethi?

  Great. 50 bucks. You're down to 63%. I think we should declare victory on that part. So can we all give each other a round of applause? That was very well done. Nice job.

• 1:11:37Speaker 02

  Oh my God.

• 1:11:37Ramit Sethi?

  Even the dog just jumped up cheering. That's crazy. That dog knows the CSP better than half my readers. I'm going to suggest to you by putting these numbers back up on screen that you can actually have incredibly meaningful time together, including the occasional spending on coffee or eating out, but you will become much more intentional about where the money goes. Shall we make it happen?

• 1:12:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:12:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:05Ramit Sethi?

  All right. Take a look. We want, as you both told me, that emergency fund to grow quickly. So let's just start by allocating money there. How much would you like to put towards savings? As a hint, I usually suggest to people 5% to 10% of take-home pay. In your case, I would actually suggest a lot more because you're behind in your amount of savings to be accumulated.

• 1:12:36Speaker 01

  So would you suggest something like $3,000?

• 1:12:38Ramit Sethi?

  Um, I will suggest starting with a percentage. So if most people are doing 10%, what number would you aim for?

• 1:12:45Speaker 02

  20%?

• 1:12:46Speaker 01

  Maybe 15?

• 1:12:47Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Nice. So one says 15, one says 20. That's a great place to start. Let's try them both and see what happens. So let's see here. We're going to talk about 640 bucks will be 10%. That's obviously low. Let's go to 900. Oh, that's low. You can see I'm just kind of plugging it in here and seeing when the the actual percentage hits the number. So at about a thousand bucks, we're at 16%. Okay, cool. Let's do it again. Shall we go up to investments and put some money there?

• 1:13:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, I feel like we could even take like 10% to put it into some sort of investment, like starting off. What do you think, baby?

• 1:13:23Speaker 01

  Hmm. I definitely think we could, let's say, a hundred dollars each, or you said percentage, right?

• 1:13:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, again, like 10%, put it into some sort of, I reckon, stocks.

• 1:13:34Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, let's do it. Let's watch what happens. Six forty makes it about 11%, because you already have that. Let's make it 600. We're at 10% now. Okay, now we're starting to get a picture, and now we can decide, is this right or wrong for you? So again, let's just take it from the top. Your fixed costs did not change, of course, at 66%. Your investments are at 10% or $645 a month. Your savings are 1,000 bucks a month or 16%. And what you have left over for guilt-free spending is $515 a month or 8%. Now, just looking at the percentages, what do you think about these percentages?

• 1:14:14Speaker 01

  I think they're much more like reasonable and the way that we should be heading if we want to make changes. Like, we have an emergency fund. I'm happy to cut guilt-free spending.

• 1:14:27Speaker 02

  When I see those numbers, I feel it's almost like a launchpad. I think as you start going, then you can adjust as you go, you know? The fact that we can make it fun, we can make this part of like a couples thing, like struggling to not spend money, but doing it because we said we're gonna do it.

• 1:14:44Ramit Sethi?

  That's a very good insight, which is approaching this as we are doing this because we have a powerful vision of the kind of life we want to lead. That is gonna put you on the road to success, even if we are gonna spend less eating out or buy less salmon. We are doing it not purely out of restriction, but because we have a powerful vision of what we are building together. And that gives you a really good chance of success. Okay, I do want to add a couple of things now, looking at these numbers. First off, my observation is These numbers are way better, way better. They are in line with what I would expect a typical couple. I would expect them to have their fixed costs, you know, around 60.

• 1:15:29Ramit Sethi?

  Yours are a little bit higher, but we understand why. You're taking care of moms and you have some Airbnb expenses that are kind of baked in there. Okay, I don't love it. I suspect that one of the solutions as well would be for your income to go up. When that happens, you will see that 66% drop. Okay, I don't know the economy exactly where you live, but for a lot of people in the US, if they made $130,000, their fixed costs would probably be in a similar place. Okay, because things are expensive, I get that. Your investments are now at 10%. That's a solid number. I do want to add a couple of things.

• 1:16:08Ramit Sethi?

  On the negative side, that's a little low for a couple starting out at your age. I would love to see it higher. However, you have an Airbnb and you have this other property. And so we should remember that investments don't only have to be in the stock market. There are many different types of investments. And yours is, hey, we have some properties. That's totally fine, as long as you treat it as an investment. You're carefully tracking the numbers, the ROI, which I want to encourage you to do. Down to savings, you're at 16%. That's a lot. That's unusually high, especially for your income. But it is the appropriate thing to do because you need savings.

• 1:16:52Ramit Sethi?

  You have too much risk right now. And I also think that your ability to be disciplined with savings needs work. Like you put money into savings, but then you pull it out to spend on random stuff. That can never happen. Like my savings is primarily one direction. It's going in, it is rarely coming out. And I really want you to think about that. Your savings account is not like a checking account. Oh, let's just pull it out because we want to get some food. No, it's there. It's in a separate account. It has a name, emergency fund until, you know, $40,000. That's what you call it, and it does not come out, except in case of emergency. Finally, your guilt free spending at 8%.

• 1:17:37Ramit Sethi?

  That's a little low, but truthfully, I think the two of you can do it. And I think because you both recognize, hey, we have not been saving and investing effectively. Therefore, we are willing to intentionally sacrifice. You still have the once a month eating out, the once coffee thing, and some extra money to spend on something nice that you like. I would encourage you to actually dream and talk about it and use the money meaningfully. Now, when I'm looking at this, I go, wow, this is at least what I would call rationalized. The numbers start to make sense to me. All right. How are you both feeling about some of the changes we discussed? Travis first, then Romy.

• 1:18:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited because I feel it's also a time to prove to my wife that I do love her. Because like two days ago, three years ago, I said, I love her. And then she said, well, a person that loves somebody wouldn't treat the person. And then I said, I'll just explain what you mean. And then she explained how she feels about my situation with her. And that was like hard to listen to. So I feel like now I have a platform to go off. I have agreed to counseling as well, which I've never done before. I've agreed to see a therapist. I've also agreed to see a therapist with her, so together as a married couple as well, which is different. So I'm very excited about this. I'm excited.

• 1:18:58Ramit Sethi?

  I love that. Love that. Romy, how about you?

• 1:19:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I feel excited. I feel like bedtime is going to be better because I can sleep when I go to bed and not lie awake, anxious and worrying. And I also take on board the few changes I need to make in the way that I address Travis. And, you know, like, I guess with his debt in the UK, I felt very like, well, he's not going to do it. So I'm going to do it because it actually affects both of us. But actually, no, you know what? That's not mine. You need to sort that out. So I think it's not just like a money and putting savings away. It's actual like change in my view of things. And maybe also learning that I'm also 50% of the relationship and I can say how I feel.

• 1:19:43Speaker 01

  I think that'll take me some time, too.

• 1:19:45Ramit Sethi?

  Beautiful. Both of you, very perceptive observations you have here. Travis, the idea that you're excited to embrace this new identity is really cool. Romy, I love hearing you acknowledge, hey, I've probably played a part in this, too. I've probably been taking on some of the burden, but I need to develop the skills with my therapist, with our therapist, and with a lot of practice to say, that's your responsibility. And as I write about in Money for Couples, that's going to be hard, especially because when you change a dynamic, it's really challenging. People make mistakes. Nobody effortlessly shifts into a new role, identity, or dynamic. That's hard. But both of you talking about it and saying, hey,

• 1:20:28Ramit Sethi?

  here's where we want to go. We both understand it's not going to be easy. We're probably both going to make mistakes. Let's give each other some grace, and we have a powerful vision of where we want to go. That, trust me, that is so much more powerful and meaningful than being able to go and eat out at some fast food place four times a week. Trust me, when you truly build a rich life that is together and you're aligned, feels better than any amount of food or trip that you can take on a whim.

• 1:21:00Speaker 02

  I would like to be the couple that does what you say and shows other couples you can do this, man. Like, if you apply somebody's advice who knows what he's talking about, and you listen to what he says, and you go the way he guides you, and then when you learn how to do it, you can do it yourself. And I would like to be that statistic.

• 1:21:15Ramit Sethi?

  Beautiful. Romy, how about you?

• 1:21:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I feel a sense of relief and I feel a sense of support now because it's not just like conversation with Travis, and I know it's never going to go anywhere. I feel that after this and hearing him say what he said, I feel that he is willing to make some changes. And now he sees like how much it actually is impacting me and therefore us.

• 1:21:40Ramit Sethi?

  Beautiful. You are both right. You are both supported, not just by each other, but by us, by our team, and of course, our entire audience. You know, our audience roots for you. They really do. They root for every couple that comes on here. And the thing that they hope to see Is big changes. And I know that every couple I speak to, including you, has the possibility of making those big changes. So my hope for you is that you both make the changes. You do that, I think you're gonna have a very rich life. I have updates from Romy and Travis. But first, let me give you a little reflection of my conversation with them. I really enjoyed our conversation and I genuinely believe that today's conversation

• 1:22:23Ramit Sethi?

  was the first step towards lasting change. Because for the first time, Travis really understood the stakes of what we were talking about. At the beginning of our conversation, it was clear that neither of them had ever really operated with real numbers, not at a strategic level, not at a substantive level. They were stuck playing whack-a-mole with daily expenses, arguing about tips at the valet, but they were ignoring the bigger picture. Over the conversation, I think we discovered that the real issue was not just money, it was the culture that had been created. In business, there's a saying, "Culture eats strategy for breakfast." You can bring in a new strategy, even a new CEO, but if the culture is broken, nothing is gonna change.

• 1:23:07Ramit Sethi?

  And we see that in couples too. The culture in this relationship was, she pleads, he brushes it off. She worries, he reassures. There was no shared ownership or partnership. And that's what I love doing in this podcast, is surfacing not just the numbers, but the deeper culture, the deeper money psychology. The stuff that you think about when your partner is snoring next to you and you are lying awake thinking, "I can't keep doing this. Why is this not working? This is not the life I imagined for myself." Today, for the first time, Travis heard that and Romy found the space to finally say it. That is when things started to change. Once we named the patterns, the avoidance, the worrying, the secret saving, they started moving fast.

• 1:23:51Ramit Sethi?

  They saw the trade-offs, they became decisive, and suddenly something that felt so tangled, suddenly started to become clear. "Can we cut the groceries to 300 bucks? No, that's not realistic. How about 500? Yeah, that works." That is what Romy and Travis did today. Romy and Travis submitted a ton of videos. Check out the highlights.

• 1:24:11Speaker 02

  So we just finished with the remit and the homework was to write down some key words out of the conversation we had. And yeah, it's...

• 1:24:21Speaker 02

  To the point, quite direct, but that's what I needed. So one of the words he used to describe me was an ignorant reassurer. And now, when I hear those words, I wouldn't trust an ignorant reassurer. If I think of my profession, if someone tried to give me advice, they know nothing about what's going on. And then they're reassuring me. So that, that's hit home hard.

• 1:24:43Speaker 01

  I think my biggest surprise was I always wondered how Travis like never really cared about money. And it wasn't ever something that was on his mind. But then hearing him talk about his childhood and the way he grew up. I mean, those are things that I always knew. But hearing him say it and how it may have impacted his view of money was, yeah, that was quite a big surprise for me.

• 1:25:04Speaker 02

  The biggest surprise for me was it's more important to me to be known, to be generous by others than my wife's feelings about money. My wife has been suffering, anxious, begging me. But my actions show by my spending that it's more important to me to be known as generous to others. That was a massive surprise.

• 1:25:24Speaker 01

  My biggest takeaway, I would say, is the things that I want to work on myself. So Ramit said how I approach the conversations with money and the way that I start talking about it. I'm almost like less powerful because I'm like, oh, hey, do you mind if we just, instead of being more assertive? Like, no, I'm sorry, this is the boundary, this is your stuff, these are your bills. So the specific changes I decided to make and have made this week, and it was a little bit tough. There were a few times where I saw an email come in about like accounts or finances and just leaving it thinking like, no, that's actually Travis's to handle. I don't need to handle that.

• 1:26:04Speaker 01

  That's going to be something I need to learn how to step back and I don't have to be on top of everything and managing everything. He actually even had to remind me of something of mine today, which was quite a nice feeling, I must say. I enjoyed that.

• 1:26:17Ramit Sethi?

  And now here are even more follow-ups from three weeks later.

• 1:26:21Speaker 01

  Okay, just checking in. I guess the biggest surprise for me was finding out that a lot of the things I was worried about or concerned about are actual concerns. Sometimes when you're just alone with your thoughts, you think like, maybe it's not such a big deal. And then just having Ramit to. Tell me like, hey, it actually is a big deal. Like, we should be working on this together. That really helped me. Thankfully, this week, he's really been like on a couple of things and gotten so many things sorted that we've been talking about for months, even years.

• 1:26:54Speaker 02

  I've wanted to be as aggressive as possible for this journey. I've opened up a business account to simplify my transactions. I've phoned another bank to cancel accounts I'm not using. I have downgraded my premium gym membership to a normal membership. And yeah, that's what we're at at the moment.

• 1:27:12Speaker 01

  Nothing on the podcast, it's already helped us so much and excited to implement more changes.

• 1:27:18Ramit Sethi?

  Honestly, the greatest feeling as a teacher is seeing somebody take my work and use it to improve their lives. I know that there are tons of people who read my book and blog and social media and show, and they make changes, but I can't hear from everybody. I mean, most people never contact me and tell me what happens. But when they do, it feels incredibly rewarding. To be able to speak to a couple like Romy and Travis for a long time, and then to hear their follow-ups weeks later is honestly one of the highest compliments that I could get. And thank you, Romy and Travis, for setting a great example, being courageous enough to come on this show and showing all of us how when you really decide to make a change,

• 1:28:00Ramit Sethi?

  you can make those changes bigger and faster than you ever thought possible.