219. “He’s so cheap it’s killing our joy”

Angela (52) and Brian (52) have been together since they were teenagers and have raised four kids. Now as they approach being empty nesters, they’re stuck in a sitcom-style standoff: Angela loves bargain shopping and dreams of traveling the world, but Brian clings to a decades-old belief that they need $1 million to retire and panics over every pantry purchase. Their net worth proves that they’re actually financially stable—but Brian can’t shake the fear of not having enough. Can Ramit help them rewrite their roles, align on what retirement really looks like, and find connection beyond coupons and control? In this episode we uncover: • Why Angela believes they’re ready to retire—and why Brian is convinced they’re still broke. • The decades-old advice Brian can’t shake—and how it’s been quietly dictating their entire financial life. • The performance dynamic they’ve fallen into—and how it’s masking deeper emotional needs. • The stark difference in how they define a “Rich Life”—and what’s missing from both visions. • How Angela uses frugality to feel responsible—and the cost of that invisible labor. • The moment Brian saw their actual net worth, and why it didn’t change how he feels. • What happens when couples keep score with their sacrifices—and how it erodes connection. • How fear of losing control is stopping Brian from building the life he actually wants. Chapters: (00:00:00) “I’ve been chasing that number since I was 18” (00:04:11) The emotional cost of saying no to everything (00:19:08) Ramit breaks down their numbers (00:29:21) “Why do we need eight jars of peanut butter?” (00:40:57) Trapped in the “justifier” and “decider” roles (00:50:34) Frugal lives, empty spaces (00:58:01) “I think we’ve just kind of… drifted” (01:06:04) How much is enough to retire—and what would make us feel safe? (01:18:42) Where are they now? Angela and Brian’s follow-ups This episode is brought to you by: LMNT | Right now, LMNT is offering 8 single serving packets FREE with any LMNT order. Get yours at https://drinklmnt.com/RAMIT Leesa | Go to https://leesa.com for 25% off sitewide PLUS get an extra $50 off with promo code RAMIT, exclusive for my listeners. Upwork | Visit https://upwork.com/save to get a $200 credit to put towards your next freelancer to help grow your business. Shopify | Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at https://shopify.com/ramit Facet | Facet is waiving their $250 enrollment fee for new annual members, and for my audience, Facet is offering $300 into your brokerage account if you invest and maintain $5,000 within your first 90 days. Head to https://facet.com/ramit to learn more about which membership option is best for you. Links mentioned in this episode • Get tickets for my next live events—September 14 in Atlanta and September 26 in Los Angeles—at iwt.com/events Connect with Ramit • Get my new book, Money For Couples • Get Money Coaching with Ramit • Download the Conscious Spending Plan • Listen to my book—now on Audible • Get my New York Times best-selling book • Get my no-numbers journal • Other episodes • Instagram • Twitter • YouTube If you and your partner have a money issue and you want my help, I occasionally select a couple to work with, free of charge. Apply for my help here.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Ramit Sethi?

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• 1:26Ramit Sethi?

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• 2:36Speaker 01

  We're living too little of a life is the problem. He just says no all the time.

• 2:40Speaker 02

  I just cringe. And it's not about her. It's about the spending the money going out. I don't want the experience. I don't need it.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  One of my hobbies is also bargain shopping and it drives him crazy. So he'll say, why do we need eight jars of peanut butter? And I'll say, because they were $1.99. So I'm actually saving us money.

• 3:00Ramit Sethi?

  How often do you talk about this?

• 3:02Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 3:02Speaker 02

  Almost every day.

• 3:03Speaker 01

  Every day, almost. Every day.

• 3:05Speaker 02

  Why are we wasting money on ridiculous food that no one eats?

• 3:09Speaker 01

  So finally we went and we had a really good time. And then when we left, he said, okay, that's off your bucket list now. Right? Jack, mark that off.

• 3:17Ramit Sethi?

  What was with that comment?

• 3:18Speaker 02

  Stop adding things to your list of things to go out and spend money on. I need to control. And that's what it comes down to.

• 3:24Ramit Sethi?

  Listen to this line from their application. I just worry that life is passing us by and we can be doing and spending more on life. We never eat out. Vacations are once a year. He always thinks we are poor. I need someone to tell him that we are okay money wise. So he can live life before it's too late. Today I'm speaking with Angela and Brian. They're both 52 years old. They've been together since they were in high school and they've been married for 28 years. They've raised four children together and soon they will be empty nesters. But right now money is pulling them apart. Angela is saying, is this all life is going to be?

• 4:07Ramit Sethi?

  Now let's look at the numbers on their conscious spending plan or CSP. You can download your own copy of the CSP for free at IWT.com slash CSP. It's the exact tool I use in every episode. Income $188,000. Assets $961,000. Investments $890,000. Debt $294,000. Total net worth $1.57 million. Fixed costs 72%. Investments 35%. Okay, at 52, we have some good progress here. They're investing aggressively. They've built real wealth. But 72% on fixed costs is a red flag, especially at their ages.

• 4:51Ramit Sethi?

  I imagine they are feeling very tight with money. And it also sounds like Angela's ready to enjoy life, but Brian thinks they are broke, which, looking at their numbers, that is clearly not the case. I have a lot of questions. Let's get into it. Angela, in your application, you wrote, "I think we are totally fine and can retire in five years. He thinks if we don't have 50 grand in the bank, we can never retire."

• 5:18Speaker 01

  True.

• 5:19Ramit Sethi?

  Tell me about that.

• 5:20Speaker 01

  I know our money. I know what we spend. We're very frugal. And I just want to start living life a little bit more now, where Brian, on the other hand, worries about every single penny and I think feels like we need to have a billion dollars before we can retire. So my fear is that he'll be working till he's 80 and I'm ready to retire when I'm 55.

• 5:43Ramit Sethi?

  Is it a billion or $50,000 exactly?

• 5:46Speaker 02

  Probably both combined, a billion and $50,000.

• 5:50Ramit Sethi?

  How do you feel hearing the application that Angela wrote?

• 5:54Speaker 02

  I don't know what the magic number is. So in my mind, I have no concept of what I need to live whatever life it's going to be. And I don't even know what that looks like. You talk about the rich life. I've been going through it all week in my mind. What's my rich life? I have no idea.

• 6:11Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 6:11Speaker 02

  And I'm trying to get grips on that to figure out what I need to say, "Okay, I'm done." Or I'm going to work part-time or whatever. I have no concept of this.

• 6:21Ramit Sethi?

  Is it a number?

• 6:22Speaker 02

  Years ago, my father-in-law said, "Well, we need a million dollars to retire." I don't even know where that number came from. I'm still trying to figure that out.

• 6:29Ramit Sethi?

  Have you believed that number?

• 6:30Speaker 02

  I had believed that number since he told me probably when I was 18. I mean, I've been dating her since I've been eight, you know.

• 6:36Speaker 03

  Long time ago.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:38Speaker 03

  So many, many years ago, when you first met, you heard your father-in-law.

• 6:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:42Speaker 03

  Say, we need a million dollars to retire. And so you took that to heart as an eighteen-year-old.

• 6:47Speaker 02

  I did.

• 6:48Speaker 03

  Let's talk about where you are today.

• 6:49Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 6:50Speaker 03

  So what is your current retirement plan?

• 6:53Speaker 01

  We have a lot. We both fully fund our Roth IRA. I have a 403B because I'm a teacher. I also have a pension. And then Brian has a 401K.

• 7:03Speaker 03

  Okay. Do you know your numbers?

• 7:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 7:06Speaker 02

  I do.

• 7:07Speaker 03

  Wow, okay. I love that confidence. Amazing.

• 7:09Speaker 02

  I just cried the other day.

• 7:11Speaker 03

  Is that true?

• 7:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 7:12Speaker 02

  I teared up inside because it had lost fifty thousand. I didn't even want to look at it because I knew with the market was just crashing. I'm like, I can't do it. I only looked at it because we had to prepare for this.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:23Speaker 03

  Why do you think you both see retirement differently?

• 7:26Speaker 02

  I think she feels that we're at a comfortable place financially right now. Where our plan going forward, I don't see that. I think we just need more. I wish I would have started much earlier. Obviously, you can't get that time back. So we're just trying to max out what we can now. But I just think I need to keep working until I feel we're ready, I guess, in my mind. And she's ready or sooner than.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  We're living too little of a life is the problem. We really are not spending any money. Like, we just don't spend money. We tried to talk about when the last time we went out to eat, and I think it was two years ago.

• 8:05Speaker 03

  Is that right?

• 8:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:06Speaker 03

  Where'd you go?

• 8:07Speaker 01

  Third and Ferry, just a little restaurant that had like fun seafood specials. We had a day off of work and we went like a Wednesday afternoon for lunch.

• 8:15Speaker 03

  No occasion, just you both had the day off?

• 8:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:18Speaker 01

  I probably begged him to go.

• 8:20Speaker 03

  What was that like?

• 8:21Speaker 01

  It was really fun. We enjoyed ourselves. We enjoyed the lunch. We walked around the little town afterwards. We said, we're gonna do this more often, and it was probably two years ago.

• 8:29Speaker 03

  What happened from that day till now? Why have you not gone out to eat?

• 8:34Speaker 01

  He just says no all the time. We have food here at home.

• 8:37Speaker 03

  Oh, paint the picture. I have to hear this conversation. So do you bring up going out to eat?

• 8:41Speaker 01

  All the time.

• 8:42Speaker 03

  Walk me through it. Let's recreate the last conversation.

• 8:44Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 8:44Speaker 01

  Oh, I said the other day, the melting pot has this special where we can do half-price fondue. That would be really fun. Do you want to do that one night?

• 8:53Speaker 03

  Definitely not.

• 8:55Speaker 02

  I have no interest in going out.

• 8:57Speaker 01

  But it's one and it's half price.

• 9:00Speaker 02

  Like I said, she has a short bucket list of, or a long bucket list of things she likes to accomplish, whatever it may be, restaurants being one of them, right? I have been out recently, like I'll take my kids out to Chinese buffet for their birthday. Have one-on-one time.

• 9:15Speaker 03

  And how come you take your kids out, but not your wife out?

• 9:17Speaker 02

  Um.

• 9:20Speaker 02

  Don't.

• 9:21Speaker 01

  He feels like it's a requirement.

• 9:22Speaker 02

  I feel, I feel like I owe them something. This is, okay, this is part of your birthday gift, so to speak, and they enjoy going out.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  Meal, where are we gonna go?

• 9:29Speaker 02

  That kind of thing.

• 9:31Speaker 03

  Just wait.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:32Speaker 03

  You feel like you owe your kids something for their birthday?

• 9:35Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 9:35Speaker 03

  Okay. What about your wife?

• 9:37Speaker 02

  I guess I'm screwed on that one. Because I owe you same level respects.

• 9:45Speaker 03

  What if it's not her birthday?

• 9:47Speaker 02

  Um, probably we're not going out.

• 9:50Speaker 03

  Because?

• 9:51Speaker 02

  I don't want to spend the money.

• 9:53Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 9:53Speaker 02

  Because we have food here. I just don't want to go out. And it's taking away from our relationship. If that means so much to her, yeah. I'll make it a priority going forward. Um, maybe just quarterly we'll go out.

• 10:04Speaker 03

  Well, come on, I don't, I don't believe that. You all have been married 28 years. You know it's a priority. She's been asking you like every week for the last 20 years.

• 10:11Speaker 02

  Twenty, I know. It's just, uh, I don't see a point. Can we do something else?

• 10:16Speaker 01

  But if we do, if we do do something on my bucket list, then it's like a check mark. So like I wanted to go to a happy hour recently and it was on a Tuesday night. And he was like, why does it have to be a Tuesday? Why does it have to be a Tuesday? So finally we went and we had a really good time and we enjoyed it. And then when we left, he said, okay, that's off your bucket list now, right? Check, mark that off. So.

• 10:42Speaker 03

  Okay, let's zoom in on that. What was with that comment?

• 10:45Speaker 02

  Stop adding things to your list of things to go out and spend money on? I know this was only six bucks. It was a flight of beer. It was a craft brewery type thing. It was ambiance. It was us talking, connecting one-on-one type of thing. I just cringe. Now, it's not about her. It's about the spending the money, going out. I don't want the experience. I don't need it. Maybe I don't need the alcohol. Maybe I don't need the extra food. I need the controls and that's what it comes down to.

• 11:08Speaker 03

  Can we do this exact same conversation, but can we just flip roles?

• 11:12Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 11:13Speaker 03

  So in this scenario, Angela, you don't want to go out.

• 11:18Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 11:19Speaker 03

  You don't want the calories. You don't want the drinks. You just don't want it.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 11:24Speaker 03

  And Brian, you have been wanting to go out for years.

• 11:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:29Speaker 03

  You want to connect. You don't care how much it costs. It's not the point. It's not even an expensive place.

• 11:35Speaker 02

  Right.

• 11:35Speaker 03

  You just want to go out and spend time.

• 11:37Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 11:37Speaker 03

  With your partner.

• 11:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:38Speaker 03

  So everybody get into their role.

• 11:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  I'm gonna be Brian.

• 11:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:44Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 11:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I would like for you to have that same conversation as each other. Go ahead.

• 11:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, I can't wait. Tonight, we're going out to the proper brewing.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  I'm not going.

• 11:56Speaker 02

  What? We planned on this.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  No, no, I decided I don't want to spend the money.

• 12:00Speaker 02

  You know, they have happy hour, five to seven, free munchies. They have a band that's coming in.

• 12:05Speaker 01

  Too crowded. I don't need the calories. We have food at home.

• 12:09Speaker 02

  We've been planning this for months.

• 12:10Speaker 01

  I know, but money, we don't need the food. We can just stay home. Maybe next week.

• 12:20Speaker 03

  Okay, that seemed to come very easy to both of you. What did it feel like?

• 12:27Speaker 02

  It was great.

• 12:28Speaker 01

  It's just excuses, making excuses. There's always excuses.

• 12:32Speaker 03

  To me, it felt like a bit of a performance. And to me, also, when I see you acting as yourselves, it also feels like a performance. How's that strike you?

• 12:47Speaker 02

  I feel as though like, okay, when we retire, officially, whenever that is, we have time for that stuff. Right now, it's about, you know, you relax when you come home from work. I'll do my thing. And it's kind of like, I don't know.

• 13:01Speaker 03

  What about the performance aspect?

• 13:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't, I don't know what you mean by that exactly.

• 13:06Speaker 02

  Like too dramatic? Like, like excuses?

• 13:10Speaker 03

  Like each of you is a caricature? Like, Brian, you are the grumpy.

• 13:16Speaker 03

  Older guy who is like, food, we don't need that.

• 13:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:20Speaker 03

  I'm like, uh, we'll do it someday.

• 13:22Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 13:22Speaker 03

  Just kind of a reflexive no.

• 13:25Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 13:26Speaker 03

  To anything that's asked. And even when you are begrudgingly dragged there by your wife.

• 13:31Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 13:31Speaker 03

  Then you have a comment at the end like, God, check it off the list.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  That's a hundred percent who he is.

• 13:37Speaker 03

  Okay, maybe.

• 13:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:38Speaker 03

  That's, in my opinion, playing a character.

• 13:41Speaker 02

  Right.

• 13:41Speaker 03

  And then we have the wife who desperately wants to connect with her husband. Wants to spend time. It doesn't matter how much is. In fact, when I ask to do something, I'm going to emphasize how little it costs. It's only a happy hour. It's only five to seven and they have a live band. Let me please convince you to do this with me, please. Just this one thing.

• 13:57Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 13:58Speaker 03

  Yeah. A performance. What if?

• 14:04Speaker 03

  You just didn't do it? What if you just? Chose to play different roles? What if? I'm not saying you have to.

• 14:11Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 14:12Speaker 03

  But what if you did? What would happen?

• 14:14Speaker 02

  You mean if I flipped the script and I started wanting to go out, just what we role play?

• 14:17Speaker 03

  Sure, maybe, maybe. That could be one, or maybe it could be a different role, or maybe whatever. But what if you just played different roles? Is that possible?

• 14:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm not gonna say impossible. Likely improbable.

• 14:30Speaker 03

  Okay. What about for you?

• 14:32Speaker 01

  For me to change my role?

• 14:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:33Speaker 01

  I feel like I already have because I don't ask as much anymore. Or um, I will do the things that are on my to do list with a friend or one of the kids. We spend a lot of time together. It's just not those going out.

• 14:50Speaker 02

  Experiences.

• 14:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:52Speaker 03

  You can't change that, right? Can't change your roles.

• 14:55Speaker 02

  Anything's possible. Yes, with you.

• 14:57Speaker 03

  Okay. What's the vision for your retirement?

• 15:00Speaker 01

  I would like the travel. We've talked about getting an RV and traveling across the country.

• 15:04Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  But I also want to travel internationally. I just really want to travel.

• 15:09Speaker 03

  Okay, all right. And Brian?

• 15:10Speaker 02

  I would say capital T travel is as well as the top of my list. But it's gonna be on the cheap, I think.

• 15:17Speaker 03

  What was it like to do the conscious spending plan together?

• 15:20Speaker 01

  I think the free work.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Was a lot like that overwhelms me like we need to pull these numbers. We need to look for this. Go find this number. Go find our last car insurance, things like that. But putting the numbers on paper, I felt good about it. And I think we worked good as a team.

• 15:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, she had it all set up. Grand Central Station on the table there and just gave me tests.

• 15:42Speaker 03

  How long did it take you?

• 15:43Speaker 02

  Couple of days at least. What it felt like because there was this number she was asking for that I couldn't find right away.

• 15:48Speaker 01

  Sure. Our numbers were super accurate.

• 15:50Speaker 03

  By the way, Brian, when I asked, how was it filling it out? I noticed you let out a big sigh.

• 15:55Speaker 02

  I was relieved at the end.

• 15:56Speaker 03

  Yeah. But what about the part before the end?

• 15:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. I was just on edge.

• 16:00Speaker 03

  Why?

• 16:01Speaker 02

  I'm getting better.

• 16:03Speaker 03

  No, why?

• 16:04Speaker 02

  Well, I was irritable. Um, I don't want to see them as as much the numbers.

• 16:10Speaker 03

  Because?

• 16:13Speaker 02

  Anxiety, fear, you know, that back to that whole situation that, oh, is this all we have? We don't have enough? How are we going to do this? My father in law said a million. Are we on the right track? Are we going to get there? There's no way we can retire. I mean, these are the things that got me on edge.

• 16:30Speaker 03

  This interesting, this reference to your father in law. So you're 52 years old.

• 16:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:34Speaker 03

  So you heard that like roughly 30 years ago.

• 16:38Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. High school.

• 16:40Speaker 03

  How interesting. These phrases that we hear when we're younger and they stick with us.

• 16:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:46Speaker 03

  They can alter the trajectory of our life.

• 16:49Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 16:49Speaker 03

  Of our relationship.

• 16:51Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 16:51Speaker 03

  That your dad making this comment can echo in time.

• 16:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:56Speaker 03

  30 years later, when you're talking about going to happy hour.

• 16:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I don't even remember him saying that.

• 17:02Speaker 03

  Is he still with us?

• 17:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:03Speaker 03

  What does he say now?

• 17:05Speaker 02

  I just dropped him off at the airport today. They're heading to Florida.

• 17:08Speaker 03

  But what did he say about a million dollars?

• 17:10Speaker 02

  I didn't ask. I did not. I did not ask him.

• 17:12Speaker 03

  You brought it up once. You've never brought it up. You let it guide your life?

• 17:15Speaker 02

  Never again.

• 17:16Speaker 03

  Hello, what is happening right now? Should we get him on the phone?

• 17:19Speaker 01

  But I said.

• 17:20Speaker 02

  We could. We could.

• 17:20Speaker 01

  I what I said to Brian this morning was, why are you even thinking about his financial advice when he keeps his money under his mattress? So he's not.

• 17:32Speaker 03

  Dear God.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:34Ramit Sethi?

  Isn't this fascinating? Brian has been holding on to a single number for his entire adult life. $1 million. That's the number Brian heard when he was 18 from his father-in-law. And he just absorbed it. He didn't question it. He adopted it as gospel. And that single number, that single offhanded comment, has shaped how he sees money and retirement and even his marriage. This is the power of one offhand comment. It's not a spreadsheet. It's not a budget. It's just a sentence that he heard that calcified into a deeply held belief

• 18:15Ramit Sethi?

  that decades later is now affecting every relationship about money with his wife. Sad truth is, if Brian still believes that number is the goal, but he can't define what retirement looks like or how much it costs, then no amount of money will ever feel like enough. That's why he can't enjoy a $6 happy hour. You know, the most ironic part of this whole story? His father-in-law isn't even someone he admires when it comes to money. It's like taking dating advice from your uncle who's been divorced three times and lives in his grandma's basement. Just because someone says something with confidence when you're 18 years old does not mean you should let that shape your entire worldview.

• 18:56Ramit Sethi?

  And yet Brian's been living by that million-dollar myth for over 30 years. After this, I'm going to dig into their numbers. If you're retiring soon and you have a financial advisor, please listen up. Do you know how much you pay your advisor? Most people that I talk to do not know. I don't have anything against advisors per se. I do have something against paying a percentage and not even knowing how much you are paying. You can actually get quality financial help without hidden or obfuscated fees by switching to a flat fee-only advisor from our friends at Facet. Facet charges a flat membership fee for financial planning, never a percentage of your assets. And you get access to a team of CFP professionals, always a CFP, always a fiduciary,

• 19:40Ramit Sethi?

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• 20:21Ramit Sethi?

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• 20:31Ramit Sethi?

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• 21:15Ramit Sethi?

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• 21:43Speaker 03

  Does he enjoy his money?

• 21:45Ramit Sethi?

  No.

• 21:46Speaker 01

  No.

• 21:46Speaker 03

  Does he live the kind of life that you want to live?

• 21:49Ramit Sethi?

  No.

• 21:49Speaker 01

  No.

• 21:50Speaker 03

  Oh. I don't even know what that is, but it's not that. We should definitely follow his advice.

• 21:57Speaker 03

  Let's look at the numbers. Let's see here. Angela,

• 21:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:59Speaker 03

  Can you read the word in bold?

• 22:01Speaker 01

  Oh my gosh, can I?

• 22:02Speaker 03

  And the number in full next to it?

• 22:05Speaker 01

  Assets. No, I actually can't.

• 22:08Speaker 03

  Is it too small? I'll make it bigger.

• 22:09Speaker 02

  I see it.

• 22:10Speaker 03

  Okay, go ahead.

• 22:10Speaker 02

  Nine hundred sixty one thousand.

• 22:12Speaker 03

  Great. Investments?

• 22:14Speaker 02

  Uh, eight ninety one, eight seventy three.

• 22:16Speaker 03

  Eight hundred ninety one thousand. Yep. Savings?

• 22:18Speaker 02

  Fifteen thousand, seven eighteen.

• 22:21Speaker 03

  And debt?

• 22:21Speaker 02

  Two ninety four, two hundred ninety four thousand, three hundred and forty two dollars.

• 22:25Speaker 03

  Perfect. Total net worth?

• 22:26Speaker 02

  Uh, one point five seventy four thousand.

• 22:30Speaker 03

  One point five million dollars. Okay. How do you feel about those numbers?

• 22:33Speaker 01

  I think they look great. He never saw that one point five before. I didn't want him to see that net worth before he saw it here.

• 22:41Speaker 03

  Uh huh.

• 22:42Speaker 01

  To get his true reaction.

• 22:43Speaker 03

  Wow. Are you from the TV industry or what? That's a classic producer move. Get it on camera. Well done. And Brian, what do you think? One point five million dollars.

• 22:55Speaker 02

  Looks good on paper. Is it real?

• 22:58Speaker 03

  Wow. A depressing answer to an otherwise

• 23:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:01Speaker 03

  seven-figure number. Let's not even take a second to celebrate it because we don't celebrate it. We just worry about what's coming next.

• 23:08Speaker 02

  Oh, doom and gloom.

• 23:09Speaker 03

  Sound familiar?

• 23:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:10Speaker 02

  It does.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 23:12Speaker 03

  Well, the thing is, you're in your 50s.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 23:15Speaker 03

  You can keep living this way. You can, or you can change the entire way that you individually relate to money and you collect it.

• 23:23Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 23:24Speaker 03

  To realize that for your entire adult life, you've been working towards having one million dollars.

• 23:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:30Speaker 03

  And you actually have 50% more than that. You were worried 20 minutes ago?

• 23:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:34Speaker 03

  We just discovered that your financial life is way different, probably better than you thought.

• 23:39Speaker 02

  Right.

• 23:39Speaker 03

  It did not change a single feeling, not even for a second.

• 23:42Speaker 02

  It did. It was the second. I internalized it. You didn't see it.

• 23:46Speaker 01

  The goalpost always moves.

• 23:48Speaker 03

  I don't even mind goals moving. I don't.

• 23:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:51Speaker 03

  I don't mind goals moving. I mind if they're moving without reason.

• 23:55Speaker 02

  Right.

• 23:56Speaker 03

  If it's somebody who is just picking a number, holding their finger in the air, and then I go, why? They go, I don't know. My father-in-law said it 30 years ago.

• 24:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:05Speaker 03

  I go, that's how you're making decisions? Right. And like, literally, we're not talking about just a couple of small decisions like happy hour. We're talking about what retirement looks like. So today, actually, really excited to get a chance to add a little bit of intellectual rigor to the way you're thinking about money. Okay, let's look at the rest of these numbers. Income, Angela, gross monthly combined income?

• 24:31Speaker 01

  Fifteen thousand, six hundred and seventy-four.

• 24:33Speaker 03

  Cool, so you have a household income of a hundred and eighty-eight thousand dollars. What do you think about that income?

• 24:38Speaker 01

  I actually think it's great.

• 24:40Speaker 03

  I'm, yeah, I'm thrilled. Who's the person who makes double the other? Brian makes double what Angela?

• 24:46Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 24:47Speaker 03

  Got it. Okay, cool, that's a very good income. Great job. Fixed costs, all right, seventy-two percent.

• 24:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:54Speaker 03

  It's a bit high.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  Very high.

• 24:56Speaker 03

  Shall we take a look? Yeah. Your mortgage is three thousand, five hundred bucks. Okay, we have a car payment of six forty-one, no debt, groceries of five hundred bucks a month for two kids at home and two adults. Wow.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:10Speaker 03

  Nice, nice work. Phone at one oh seven and subscriptions at six dollars a month? That can't be right.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  It is.

• 25:17Speaker 03

  What's six? What are you getting for six?

• 25:19Speaker 01

  Two dollars, I pay extra for Apple storage.

• 25:24Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 25:25Speaker 01

  And four dollars, he does the MLB app.

• 25:28Speaker 03

  Okay, that's it?

• 25:29Speaker 01

  Only in baseball season.

• 25:30Speaker 03

  Like, I'm like, did you all leave a couple zeros off this?

• 25:33Speaker 01

  No.

• 25:33Speaker 03

  No, it's literally six dollars.

• 25:35Speaker 01

  No.

• 25:35Speaker 03

  Do you have Netflix or something like that? None of that?

• 25:37Speaker 01

  I do, like, Discovery and we have Hulu, but we put that up with our...

• 25:42Speaker 03

  TV or something.

• 25:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly, cable, we did that with cable.

• 25:45Speaker 03

  Okay. Honestly, this is the lowest subscription number I've ever seen that is correct. Like, I have to give you a round of applause. This is actually amazing. I've never seen it. Look at the numbers, they look fake on the page. Two, four, six, I'm like, what is this?

• 25:56Speaker 01

  They do look fake.

• 25:57Speaker 03

  No, it's accurate. I can't believe it. You've mentioned in your application, like, we are extremely frugal. We don't spend money on anything. And I think six dollars for a family of four and two kids out of the house is... That is very frugal.

• 26:12Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 26:12Speaker 03

  Okay, and yet, your fixed costs are seventy-two percent.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  It seems crazy.

• 26:17Speaker 03

  Why do you think that is?

• 26:18Speaker 01

  I often think is our mortgage too high, but there's nothing we can do about that. We actually pay extra in that mortgage. So we pay 400 extra into that.

• 26:27Speaker 03

  What's your interest rate? 3.337 or something. Your housing cost is okay. It's 27% when we factor it all in. Usually we like to see it below 28. It's very difficult to get that. You have a very low interest rate and you're paying extra. So it's probably more like 22 or something. You do have 750 bucks in utilities and you have insurance for 600 bucks. You have a car expenses for 641. All that stuff adds up.

• 26:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:55Speaker 03

  Even with a high income. It's not horrible. And actually we could drop this number right now. Like I'll just drop it right now. Instead of 3501, I'll drop it to 3101.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 27:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, you're at 67%, which is okay. It's not bad. Investments at 35%. Okay, so we have your post tax and pre-tax. So you're investing 3,000 bucks a month. That's good. And your investments are $891,000. Okay, very good. As you get older, particularly if people started late in life, that number needs to be high. A lot higher than most people are comfortable with.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:30Speaker 03

  So this is nice. Are you saving money for anything at all? Any savings?

• 27:34Speaker 01

  Both of our checks just automatically get deposited into our savings and that's.

• 27:39Speaker 03

  Then you use it from there?

• 27:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, we just use it from there. Sometimes if our account gets high, high, we'll take some out and like throw it into a CD.

• 27:47Speaker 03

  Huh?

• 27:47Speaker 01

  It's because I don't want that money locked up for a long time. So I'm like, I could throw it in for six months and make 4%.

• 27:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, don't, don't do that.

• 27:55Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 27:57Speaker 03

  Who taught you that?

• 27:57Speaker 01

  My dad. My dad.

• 27:59Speaker 03

  Get your dad. You know what? We have your dad here. Roll on the, come on. Why is your dad opposed in this relationship? And your dad who doesn't really use money effectively? What is happening right now?

• 28:10Speaker 01

  Oh, no, I don't know.

• 28:11Speaker 03

  Dad is telling you in 1968, you gotta buy a CD. It's so good. It's a liquid, but it's good. What the [bleep]? CD make no sense anymore. Do you spend any money guilt free? You don't really go out to a restaurant. Maybe you go out to the happy hour place, you know, every month or whatever, couple of months.

• 28:27Speaker 01

  Not much.

• 28:28Speaker 03

  Anything else?

• 28:29Speaker 02

  Needs, you know, if I need light bulbs, the mower breaks and I have to fix it.

• 28:33Speaker 03

  That's a rich life.

• 28:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know, totally, right?

• 28:35Speaker 03

  I love my light bulbs.

• 28:36Speaker 02

  If something breaks, I need it to fix it.

• 28:40Speaker 01

  He's going to your concert Friday night.

• 28:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's, that's the only, that's one of the few things that I would do.

• 28:46Speaker 03

  Hold on, hold on. You're going to a concert?

• 28:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:48Speaker 03

  I love that.

• 28:49Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 28:49Speaker 03

  I noticed that when she said he's going to a concert, your immediate reaction was to defend it. Can you try it again and this time accept it? Yeah, I'm going to a concert.

• 28:58Speaker 02

  I'm going to a concert.

• 28:59Speaker 03

  And?

• 29:00Speaker 02

  Oh, that's definitely guilt free spending for me. I usually go by myself because I enjoy it. And, um, a band from the eighties is gonna be playing in the Poconos.

• 29:10Speaker 03

  Which band?

• 29:11Speaker 01

  Winger.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  Winger.

• 29:12Speaker 03

  What are they singing?

• 29:13Speaker 02

  Hip Winger.

• 29:13Speaker 03

  What'd I know?

• 29:14Speaker 02

  Um, Seventeen, Madeline, this is from the late eighties.

• 29:17Speaker 03

  Okay, so you are having some guilt free spending.

• 29:20Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 29:20Speaker 03

  It's just not properly classified as such. It just kind of comes from this slush fund.

• 29:24Speaker 01

  Exactly. And that's why we don't necessarily put anything to savings, but all of our money goes in savings.

• 29:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, but I do want to point out that if one or both of you got laid off, you have two months' worth of savings. That's risky.

• 29:40Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 29:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's typically not that low, but we bought cars and then our financial advisor told us because.

• 29:47Speaker 03

  What?

• 29:47Speaker 02

  We were trying to time the market.

• 29:49Speaker 03

  What the [bleep]? I didn't know about this. Tell me.

• 29:51Speaker 02

  Well, this has just happened recently.

• 29:52Speaker 01

  So typically we would pull $600 out of our checking account each month for both of us.

• 29:58Speaker 02

  The Roth.

• 29:58Speaker 01

  To fund the Roth.

• 30:00Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 30:00Speaker 01

  So he just said, because the numbers dipped, why don't we?

• 30:05Speaker 02

  Max it out.

• 30:06Speaker 01

  Just max it out. So we took.

• 30:08Speaker 03

  What is this guy worth for? Hold on, does this guy work for Northwestern Mutual or was he your high school buddy? Which one?

• 30:13Speaker 01

  No.

• 30:14Speaker 03

  Which one is it?

• 30:14Speaker 01

  He's from my school district.

• 30:18Speaker 03

  So he's preying on you and other schoolteachers? These [bleep].

• 30:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:23Speaker 03

  Okay, so this is your financial advisor?

• 30:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:25Speaker 03

  Col- colleague?

• 30:27Speaker 01

  Um, not a colleague. That's like his job.

• 30:29Speaker 03

  He serves teachers, okay.

• 30:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, he just serves teachers. And I did just find out, because I hear you say it all the time about paying a flat fee versus the percentage.

• 30:37Speaker 03

  He definitely charges.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  So he charges me 0.8% and he charges 0.9% to Brian because he doesn't have as much money in that I do.

• 30:49Speaker 03

  Do you think that's good or bad?

• 30:50Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 30:51Speaker 03

  It's bad.

• 30:52Speaker 01

  Is it?

• 30:52Speaker 03

  Yes, it's bad. So you're paying to get horrible advice?

• 30:56Speaker 01

  I guess you're right.

• 30:57Speaker 03

  We trust you.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  Because we pulled 6,600 plus 6,600 out of our checking account last week and fully funded our Roth through the end of the year.

• 31:05Speaker 03

  Well, that's fine.

• 31:07Speaker 01

  Okay, so that wasn't bad advice?

• 31:09Speaker 03

  No, it's not necessarily bad. It's the principle of trying to time the market. Yeah. No credible advisor would tell you that. Yeah. Whether it's up, whether it's down, we want to do it consistently. So, I don't like that. I don't like a 0.8 and 0.9% fee, which, you know, over time would cost you a lot of money. I don't like that you got this guy through your school district. I don't like a lot of this.

• 31:33Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 31:33Speaker 03

  How long you been paying this guy? Please don't tell me decades.

• 31:36Speaker 01

  10 years. But I mean, the positive about that is it started me investing from the day I started working. I was a stay-at-home mom for 13 and a half years, so I had no retirement. I carry the health insurance and I fund my retirement. And then what comes in the mail or comes into my checking account every week is literally $1,059. That's what I make every two weeks because they were my goals, to fund my retirement.

• 32:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:05Speaker 01

  Which, you know, it looks pretty good after just 10 years. Um, but yeah, that is where I met him.

• 32:10Speaker 03

  Okay. Now I think I understand a little bit more about the numbers. Let me ask about you. Can you think of a time recently where you were not on the same page with money?

• 32:22Speaker 01

  Oh my gosh. If you want us to talk about the whole food issue, we argue about this all the time and I have a very, I'm always justifying. I justify money all the time.

• 32:32Speaker 03

  You're justifying this answer to me right now.

• 32:34Speaker 01

  I am justifying this to you. So I'm the shopper in the house, so I do all the grocery shopping. But one of my hobbies is also bargain shopping. So in our area, we have lots of like bargain grocery store type places. So I just hit them once a week. And if something that I buy regular is on special, I will stock up on it. And it drives him crazy. So he'll say, why do we need eight jars of peanut butter? And I'll say, because they were a dollar ninety-nine. And he'll say, but we don't need eight. And I'm like, but then next week I would go to the store and they'd be three ninety-nine. So I'm actually saving us money. He doesn't like this.

• 33:17Speaker 03

  How often do you talk about this?

• 33:19Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 33:20Speaker 03

  Almost every day.

• 33:20Speaker 01

  Every day, almost. Every day. Not always peanut butter. It's mozzarella cheese, it's fruit snacks, Pop-Tarts, granola bars, protein bars.

• 33:29Speaker 03

  Like how many um granola bars?

• 33:32Speaker 02

  How many? Can you count? How high can you count?

• 33:33Speaker 01

  Ten different types.

• 33:35Speaker 03

  Ten different boxes?

• 33:36Speaker 01

  Ten different boxes.

• 33:36Speaker 03

  So ten boxes of six?

• 33:38Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 33:39Speaker 03

  Okay, sixty granola bars. All right, what else?

• 33:41Speaker 02

  Let's move on to nuts.

• 33:42Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 33:43Speaker 02

  Okay, I don't know, planters nuts, cashews, some other nut covered in something, another nut covered in something.

• 33:49Speaker 01

  So I just bought them and they were ninety-nine cents. So I bought six bags of the savory type and six bags of the cappuccino flavor.

• 33:59Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  And they will be gone.

• 34:01Speaker 03

  There's thirty bags of chips. You name any chip in the world and it's in our pantry. Why do you? Get two bags of chips, not thirty bags of chips. That's just the pantry. When you see these large volumes of snacks, what does it say to you?

• 34:16Speaker 02

  I just want to throw up.

• 34:17Speaker 03

  Okay, why?

• 34:18Speaker 02

  Because it's just wasteful. It's just, it's gonna go stale. The kids don't eat it. She thinks she's feeding the kids or feeding someone. It's terrible. Why are we wasting money on? Ridiculous food that no one eats. So I went in there and I just went ballistic. So I got a trash bag, thirty gallon trash bag full of anything fruit snacks. Gummies, fruit roll ups. Pulled that whole thing out like Santa and I threw it in the bedroom. And it sat in the bedroom for about six weeks. That's just one aspect. If I go to my fridge in the garage, that's our alternate fridge. There's thirty packages of mozzarella in there. I don't eat mozzarella. Sam doesn't eat it. Larson doesn't eat it and she doesn't eat it. I don't know who is eating this stuff.

• 35:01Speaker 02

  Our two kids that come and visit for like two days. I don't care if they were a dollar per package. That's a dollar out of my gas tank. That's a dollar that I'm not funding something.

• 35:11Speaker 01

  That's his line.

• 35:12Speaker 02

  Waste.

• 35:13Speaker 03

  What's the line?

• 35:14Speaker 01

  It could have been a dollar in the gas tank.

• 35:16Speaker 03

  And what does that make you feel when you hear that?

• 35:18Speaker 01

  Oh, it's frustrating because I have very much changed my ways. So now when I am shopping, it's almost like I have handcuffs on. Like I'll look at something and.

• 35:30Speaker 03

  Well, how many handcuffs can you have if you're buying six hundred protein bars? Doesn't sound like they're that strong. She goes, I got handcuffs on. I just take them off with a protein bar.

• 35:38Speaker 01

  You don't, you don't understand what I mentally go through in the grocery store.

• 35:41Speaker 03

  Tell me.

• 35:41Speaker 01

  So like I literally will pick something up. I'll be like, wow, that's a great price, but then I'll have to look at the calories. Cause you know, my one daughter's gluten free and dairy free. The other one's worried about this. He's worried about calories. So it's a struggle with every single product. Like this is a great product. I wish I could buy it, but I don't know who's gonna eat it. I better not. And then I put it back. So.

• 35:59Speaker 03

  Can I tell you, it sounds very dramatic. It almost sounds like we're on Broadway and it's a play. Each person's playing their part.

• 36:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:07Speaker 03

  We have Brian. Oh my God, what?

• 36:12Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 36:13Speaker 03

  Right?

• 36:13Speaker 02

  Every time.

• 36:14Speaker 03

  Every time pulling in a Santa Claus type bag over his shoulder. And then we have Angela going like, you don't understand. I used to buy more.

• 36:23Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 36:24Speaker 03

  And also I'm saving money because otherwise I would be paying three times more for that peanut butter. It's pretty funny, but is this the way you want to spend the rest of your life?

• 36:33Speaker 02

  No.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  No.

• 36:34Speaker 02

  No.

• 36:35Speaker 03

  Why do you do it? You must be getting something out of it.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  Because I'm set in my ways now with the way I shop.

• 36:43Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, like I have to buy bargain shopping.

• 36:47Speaker 01

  I do.

• 36:48Ramit Sethi?

  That's who I am.

• 36:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's true.

• 36:50Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 36:50Speaker 01

  I consider it one of my hobbies.

• 36:52Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, how do you think that this hobby is certain?

• 36:55Speaker 01

  I feel like I'm being responsible to our household because I feel like the four of us being able to eat for $500 is great. I also think what would my other hobby be and how much money would I be spending if I chose a different hobby? And I I physically cannot go to a regular grocery store and pay those prices.

• 37:15Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, you physically can.

• 37:17Speaker 01

  I physically can. I every other way cannot.

• 37:20Ramit Sethi?

  Mm hmm. Wow. Brian just saw his net worth for the first time and it was 1.5 million dollars. Did you see it? Angela had to stage the reveal just to get a live reaction. And his response tells me everything about his money mindset. Did you see it? Looks good on paper. This is what happens when you've trained yourself to worry for 30 years. Even when you've been working towards a number and you discover you have 50% more than that number at age 52, even when you are financially okay, your default worldview is doom.

• 37:59Ramit Sethi?

  This is what so many people in the hyper frugalista world don't realize. If your entire worldview is about how little you can spend, how risky money is, how there'll never be enough, then even when you have more than enough, your feelings will not change. Now zoom out. Look at what's really going on here. Arguments about peanut butter, trash bags full of fruit snacks, spending time and energy discussing the fine points of mozzarella. This is not just quirky behavior. This is what I call the sitcom dynamic. I write about it in my book, Money for Couples. Now, we all know a couple like this, the couple that bickers like it's their love language. They jab each other. They finish each other's complaints. Everybody laughs at dinner parties,

• 38:40Ramit Sethi?

  but they just keep doing it over and over again. It's like a rerun. And at first it's kind of funny, might even be charming, but when you realize they've been doing this for decades. It's actually quite sad. Angela and Brian are playing characters. She's the coupon queen in the grocery aisle who still somehow buys 600 protein bars. He's the grumpy guy pulling granola bars out of the pantry and dumping them in the trash. Both of these are performances. They both think they are being productive. This bickering gives them a false sense of progress, but the truth is they are stuck in a dynamic that feels familiar and safe, but it is actually eroding their connection.

• 39:25Ramit Sethi?

  Do you know anybody who has a sitcom dynamic like this? Where they both jab each other and they both joke, but it's not really a joke? When you ask people in a dynamic like this, "Do you like it?" They go, "No." So why does it keep going? Well, it's what we know. Even when something isn't serving us, doing what we've always done feels more comfortable than change. And deep down, I gotta tell you, it's easy to argue about groceries. But asking questions like, "What do I actually want from retirement?" is way harder than complaining about granola bars. These dynamics are really hard to change, but if you want to, you can change them. I talk about changing your money dynamic in my new book, Money for Couples.

• 40:10Ramit Sethi?

  And if you want to learn how, you can download the first chapter for free at iwt.com/mfcpreview. Money for Couples, iwt.com/mfcpreview. If you're retiring soon and you have a financial advisor, please listen up. Do you know how much you pay your advisor? Most people that I talk to do not know. I don't have anything against advisors per se. I do have something against paying a percentage and not even knowing how much you are paying. You can actually get quality financial help without hidden or obfuscated fees by switching to a flat fee-only advisor from our friends at Facet. Facet charges a flat membership fee for financial planning, never a percentage of your assets.

• 40:55Ramit Sethi?

  And you get access to a team of CFP professionals, always a CFP, always a fiduciary, who help you create a personalized financial plan that meets you where you are. They can help with big things like investments, moving across the country, saving for kids' college, traveling in retirement, estate planning, all of it. Your financial plan should match up with your rich life vision and Facet can help make that possible without the exorbitant fees. As of the date of this recording, Facet is waiving the enrollment fee for new annual members and for my audience, Facet is offering $300 into your brokerage account if you invest and maintain $5,000 within your first 90 days. Head to facet.com/ramit to learn more about which membership option is best for you. Facet is an SEC registered investment advisor. I'm not a member of Facet and have

• 41:39Ramit Sethi?

  an incentive to endorse Facet as I have an ongoing fee-based contract for cash compensation based on this endorsement. All opinions are my own and not a guarantee of a similar outcome.

• 41:50Ramit Sethi?

  I recently got a comment on my podcast asking if I really use the products that I say I do. And the answer is yes. If I tell you that I personally use and pay for a product or service, I do. That's why in so many Delete Me ads that I have hosted on this podcast, I tell you I pay for this myself. I do and I have for years. I love this service. That's why I work with them and that's why I want you to check them out too. Delete Me is a subscription service that removes your personal data from the internet. We're talking about things like your full name, email, phone number, address, even your parents' names, all found and removed. They've been the leading expert in personal information removal

• 42:32Ramit Sethi?

  for the last 15 years. They were recently named Wirecutter's number one data removal service and I personally use and pay for Delete Me and I love it and I know you will too. You'll get 20% off all consumer plans when you go to joindelete.me/ramit and use promo code RAMIT at checkout. That's joindelete.me/ramit, code RAMIT for 20% off.

• 43:02Speaker 03

  It's interesting that the hobby for you, the primary sense of joy seems to be, how much value can I get? In other words, how little can I pay and get good stuff? But on your application, you wrote, "We never eat out or go out. We save money whenever we can. It's hard to know we are financially fine, yet he thinks we are poor."

• 43:26Speaker 01

  That's all, yeah.

• 43:27Speaker 03

  I agree, that's a problem, but what role do you have in contributing to this?

• 43:34Speaker 01

  Gosh, I don't know. I don't feel like I'm doing anything wrong. I really don't. Other than maybe the quantity of what I bring things in. And like I said, I do feel like I have curbed that. But if you told me you can't bargain shop anymore, you need to just go to a regular grocery store and buy one jar of peanut butter, that would go against every green in my body. I would rather not eat.

• 43:55Speaker 03

  You mean that?

• 43:56Speaker 01

  I really do.

• 43:57Speaker 03

  Playing so small that your hobby is shopping in bulk for kids that are grown and don't even really eat this stuff? Husband coming in with his ho, ho, ho bag saying, "Oh, this sucks."

• 44:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:11Speaker 03

  What I really want you to see is the characters you're playing. If they are the characters you want to play, amazing, I'll help you play them even better. But I actually don't think you like the characters you are playing. And what you may not realize is you don't have to play characters at all. What part were you playing?

• 44:30Speaker 01

  The justifier.

• 44:31Speaker 03

  Yes, I need to gather all the information to convince my obstinate husband why to say yes. Because by default, he's gonna say?

• 44:42Speaker 01

  No.

• 44:43Speaker 03

  And Brian, what role were you playing in? Probably the victim. Like, don't have to do this again. Wow. There's something quite chilling about hearing somebody talk about that with their... Again, that's tongue in cheek. But, but, is it though? Because here I am talking about playing characters. You guys have been married 28 years and the sitcom dynamic is not working for me. Like tongue in cheek saying like, "I'm the victim because I gotta spend time with my wife." Yeah. I don't find it funny. And I think you guys have found a way to camouflage what is ultimately... Some serious disagreements and pain with laughter and jokes and jabs. Guys, I would never talk to my wife like that. The role you're playing, besides the tongue in cheek role of actually something I think is quite hurtful,

• 45:28Speaker 03

  is the decider. Let her bring the data to me and I will evaluate it and decree what we will do.

• 45:36Speaker 02

  Right.

• 45:37Speaker 03

  Why do you decide? Why don't you decide? Why have you agreed on this role where you have to plead and beg? Oh, please let me provide you the data. Please decide in my way. Why?

• 45:48Speaker 02

  She could always go. I'd never stop her if she wanted to do something.

• 45:51Speaker 03

  That's not my question. Anyone can always go.

• 45:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:54Speaker 03

  You two are married. She wants to go with you.

• 45:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:56Speaker 03

  Why are you the one who decides?

• 45:58Speaker 02

  I sh-

• 45:59Speaker 03

  Why? I'm not saying, I'm not saying what should be. I'm saying why is that role the one that has emerged?

• 46:04Speaker 02

  I don't know. Let's do something that doesn't require money.

• 46:10Speaker 02

  That's how I feel. I don't want to spend the money.

• 46:12Speaker 01

  I really want my life to be full of experiences and doing things and going places. And he more is a homebody. And like you said, when he comes home from work, he does want to eat dinner, hang with the kids for a little workout and go to bed early.

• 46:27Speaker 03

  Okay, can you make it work with both of your visions?

• 46:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, as long as we book it in advance and it's not off the cuff and the financial piece is justified.

• 46:38Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 46:39Speaker 02

  That it's-

• 46:39Speaker 03

  How do we tell if it's justified?

• 46:40Speaker 02

  That's probably my-

• 46:41Speaker 03

  Oh, so you-

• 46:42Speaker 02

  My role book-

• 46:42Speaker 03

  You're the decider.

• 46:43Speaker 01

  He's the decider.

• 46:44Speaker 03

  You guys see how you've created this tautology?

• 46:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:47Speaker 03

  Oh, sure, we can reconcile our mutually disagreed views if we plan in advance.

• 46:53Speaker 02

  Right.

• 46:54Speaker 03

  And this thing happens. And also ultimately I'm the decider of whether it's financially justified or not. Do I know about our numbers? No, I don't even know our net worth as recently as 10 minutes ago. But I will decide. Does it sound absurd as I say it out loud?

• 47:06Speaker 02

  It does sound absurd.

• 47:07Speaker 03

  And yet you've been doing it for almost 30 years.

• 47:08Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 47:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:10Speaker 03

  You want to keep doing it? Wow, I didn't hear a no in that. That's interesting. You know what?

• 47:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:16Speaker 03

  Let me just tell you something.

• 47:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:17Speaker 03

  If you want to keep doing it.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:19Speaker 03

  I don't mind.

• 47:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:21Speaker 03

  Trust me, I'm not here to change your mind.

• 47:23Speaker 02

  Right.

• 47:24Speaker 03

  Please remember, you came to me.

• 47:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:25Speaker 03

  So if you tell me, Ramit.

• 47:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:28Speaker 03

  We actually like the way it works.

• 47:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:30Speaker 03

  I won't change you if you don't want to change.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 47:33Speaker 03

  But I don't think you've actually ever thought deeply.

• 47:37Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 47:38Speaker 03

  About the dynamics between the two of you and money.

• 47:42Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 47:43Speaker 02

  It's that food bill, that is the biggest overarching issue right now.

• 47:50Speaker 03

  A $500?

• 47:51Speaker 02

  I'm just saying, the excessive purchase of.

• 47:56Speaker 01

  Fruit snacks.

• 47:57Speaker 03

  What?

• 47:57Speaker 02

  Of, well, just fruit snacks. There's 30 boxes of cereal in that pan. I'm just saying.

• 48:03Speaker 03

  Why don't you take over the grocery purchases? Drop it to 250, it shouldn't be too hard, right?

• 48:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, she wouldn't, it wouldn't fly. One, I don't have the patience for it, and I really.

• 48:14Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 48:14Speaker 02

  I do appreciate that she does. She's awesome at it.

• 48:17Speaker 03

  Uh-oh.

• 48:18Speaker 02

  He's awesome at it.

• 48:18Speaker 03

  But if it could be 250, I mean, surely that's a lot of money, right? It's a lot of gas money, so why don't you just take it?

• 48:22Speaker 02

  Um.

• 48:23Speaker 03

  She'll let you. I bet I could convince her.

• 48:25Speaker 02

  It, it may work. There probably won't be too much food. It would just be the staples in the house.

• 48:30Speaker 03

  What's wrong with that?

• 48:30Speaker 02

  It would make me happy.

• 48:31Speaker 03

  We don't need waste, so.

• 48:33Speaker 02

  We don't need waste.

• 48:33Speaker 03

  Cut the waste.

• 48:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:35Speaker 03

  250 a month, you'd have 250 extra per month. That's a lot of money.

• 48:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:38Speaker 03

  Sounds good. What do you think, Angela?

• 48:40Speaker 01

  No, because it's my hobby.

• 48:42Speaker 03

  Ah.

• 48:43Speaker 01

  And I don't want him doing it. Sometimes I do send him to the store, and I know this is like those $3 things we shouldn't be worrying about, but if I send him to the store for something, I worry about like, how much is he gonna spend? Is he gonna price check? What brand is he gonna buy? Like, what's he gonna get? So it's just easier for me to be like, I'm really busy, but I'll stop at the store and get it.

• 49:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:03Speaker 01

  So I do want the control over purchases.

• 49:05Speaker 02

  The only time I go to the grocery store would be for, say, my staples. So I'm getting chicken or oatmeal or something that's safe, because I've gotten burned. You know, the dumb buffoon husband that comes home. You spent $3 more on that, whatever it is. Why don't you know I get it at this price? Those days are over. I'm not making that mistake.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  And I don't know that when I've done that last.

• 49:27Speaker 02

  She's a great bargain shopper. Awesome, awesome. But just slow down on the excessive nature of it that we don't need. It ends up in the trash can. It's wasteful. And it's money that could go elsewhere.

• 49:41Speaker 03

  Where would it go?

• 49:42Speaker 02

  Go in my gas tank, then it would go in the Roth IRA. It would go somewhere. It would go in the savings.

• 49:46Speaker 03

  You guys have a lot of good answers for every question. You're just still not getting anywhere. You notice that?

• 49:51Speaker 02

  I totally noticed that. I've been fighting this fight for a long time.

• 49:56Speaker 03

  It's not a fight. You both walked into a spider web of your own making. And you could easily get out at any time, easily. But you actually enjoy being in it. You like the cobweb. You like being stuck and trapped. You like the drama. There's actually no reason for you to change, right? I mean, look, I actually offered to have Brian take over the groceries. And even Angela said, nope.

• 50:21Speaker 01

  I know.

• 50:22Speaker 03

  Cover me in cobwebs. I like it. Even right there with an offer where it would have been quite amusing and interesting to see Brian do it. And would he have realized you can't cut a family of four down to 250? He would have realized it instantly. But you wouldn't allow it.

• 50:38Speaker 01

  I feel like that's a role that we just felt. It's just my job to do that. Like, it's his job to take out the trash, do the dishes. And it's my job to do the laundry and do the groceries. So I just, that would be hard for me to give up.

• 50:50Speaker 03

  Okay, don't. Again, it's totally up to you.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:54Speaker 03

  What do you want to do? Because right now, we haven't changed a single thing.

• 50:59Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 51:00Speaker 03

  It came out of your way. I want to help. What do you want to do?

• 51:06Speaker 01

  I really want to be more on the same page with our future. I never thought of us playing like these caricatures like you're saying. And it freaks me out a little, but.

• 51:17Speaker 03

  Why does it freak you out?

• 51:18Speaker 01

  Um, because I feel like I'm a really real person and I don't feel like I'm playing a character. I mean, we've been together for a really long time and we have a really good relationship. And we have fun together. Do we go out to eat? No. Do I wish we'd go more? Yes. But I think over time you just adapt. And I've just adapted to that's the type of personality he has. And like I say, it's not that I don't do things, I'm just not always doing them with him.

• 51:43Speaker 03

  Did you catch that? Angela just told me she wants to get on the same page. And then she immediately walked it back. Well, we have a good relationship. We have fun together. I've just adapted. When people are thinking about change, they usually experience a lot of resistance. There's a voice in the back of their head that says, you're actually fine. It's not that bad. We actually really love each other.

• 52:07Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, you can love each other and still wanna change. What's really happening here is that that voice in your head wants you to stay exactly as you are, not change, because change is scary and uncomfortable. Staying the same is comfortable. Now, I'm not here to change a dynamic just to be provocative, but I am gonna push when I hear someone say, "I wanna change", and then they immediately start convincing themselves that they don't actually wanna change. Listen as I challenge Angela on the very reason she applied to speak with me.

• 52:39Speaker 03

  So, I agree that you don't have to do everything with your partner, and your partner's not gonna like to do everything that you wanna do. I understand that, that's normal. But you applied, why?

• 52:50Speaker 01

  Because I think we're at opposite ends of the spectrum with our finances, and I really feel like we are okay. And like I said, I don't think we need to work until we're 65 to then be able to travel.

• 53:03Speaker 03

  So if I told you right now, you don't have to work until you're 65, would it change anything?

• 53:11Speaker 01

  I would believe you.

• 53:13Speaker 03

  Okay, Brian?

• 53:15Speaker 02

  I would believe you.

• 53:17Speaker 01

  But?

• 53:18Speaker 02

  I think I need to work just for my sense of feeling I'm productive. I don't wanna be, you know, I don't wanna be sitting home watching TV. Yeah, I feel like I need to, and I might as well be an earner along with working.

• 53:35Speaker 01

  I'm just worried that we've worked super, super, super hard, and our numbers are what our numbers are, and that we're living too little of a life. I also kinda play the role with him where I want him to live a bigger life. And he's very happy being simple, but I want him to live that bigger life. A perfect example is the other day, Wawa had free coffee day, and he loves blueberry coffee. And throughout the day, he had three blueberry coffees, and he was so excited about this. And the next text to him literally was, "You know, you can go get a Wawa blueberry coffee any day you want", but he won't spend the $2 on himself to get a blueberry Wawa coffee.

• 54:18Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 54:18Speaker 01

  He's just making his life too simple.

• 54:21Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 54:22Speaker 01

  And that's sad for me.

• 54:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I don't think I deserve it.

• 54:28Speaker 02

  Just because I can make my own coffee at home, that's not the point. The point is if I need something, a light bulb, part, piece of weight equipment to better myself, that's all I really need. I don't need to be, live more than what I need.

• 54:43Speaker 03

  What does your wife need?

• 54:46Speaker 02

  She needs more relationship connection, which I'm probably not providing. I think the older we get, the more apart we grow. Be honest with you. I mean, that's clearly what today shows.

• 54:57Speaker 03

  Tell me.

• 54:58Speaker 02

  That's, money aside, I think until the kids, and again, I'm using kids as an excuse, that's a poor excuse, but until the kids leave, say they leave whenever in a few years, maybe that's where things come back. And it's a big maybe, but I think we've just kind of grown apart over the years, for whatever reason.

• 55:18Speaker 01

  And not even so much apart, more that.

• 55:21Speaker 02

  More distant.

• 55:22Speaker 03

  Can I?

• 55:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 55:23Speaker 03

  First of all, that's pretty honest, so I really appreciate that. It's not easy to say. It's very courageous to say, especially as a couple in your 50s. And I'm sure you have friends and others who have approached being empty nesters. And that's a scary time. And then as you think about that with retirement, that can be really scary. One, both changing or losing their identity, that's not easy. It's scary for women in ways, it's scary for men in other ways, and for couples. You said that it's clear you've grown apart. Maybe that will change when the kids leave.

• 56:04Speaker 03

  Maybe, I hope it does, but you probably know couples who it's gotten worse when kids left.

• 56:11Ramit Sethi?

  I want to jump in quickly because this is pretty heartbreaking. Angela sees how small their life has become. And she's right, it didn't happen all at once. It happened $2 at a time. This is the hidden cost of decades of frugality. First, you do it for a reason, then you do it out of habit. And sometimes you start to believe you don't deserve anything else. It goes beyond saving money on coffee. And sometimes in situations like this, you start to realize how narrow your life has become. And then Brian said something that really stopped me cold. He said, "I think the older we get, the more we grow apart."

• 56:53Ramit Sethi?

  It's one of the most honest things that he says in this entire conversation. And I think it's one of the saddest. I see this all the time. Couples are sharing a home, sharing a bank account, but they haven't actually sat down and had a substantive conversation about money in decades. Sometimes they haven't asked each other a question in years. It's lonely. Money can keep us apart if we let it. When you don't have a rich life vision, every financial decision becomes reactive. You cut back, you track every dollar, you argue over pennies, each of you retreating to your own corner of the ring. Because there's no bigger picture guiding you.

• 57:38Ramit Sethi?

  Sometimes you might even start to see your spouse as your financial enemy. I suspect sometimes money is a convenient distraction from deeper issues. If you're listening to this and thinking, we don't actually have a rich life vision either, then I created a free guide to help you create yours. You can do it fast and it is fun to do. Download the free guide at iwt.com/richlife. Now, listen as I challenge their perspective. If you're retiring soon and you have a financial advisor, please listen up. Do you know how much you pay your advisor? Most people that I talk to do not know. I don't have anything against advisors per se. I do have something against paying a percentage and not even knowing how much you are paying.

• 58:24Ramit Sethi?

  You can actually get quality financial help without hidden or obfuscated fees by switching to a flat fee only advisor from our friends at Facet. Facet charges a flat membership fee for financial planning, never a percentage of your assets. And you get access to a team of CFP professionals, always a CFP, always a fiduciary, who help you create a personalized financial plan that meets you where you are. They can help with big things like investments, moving across the country, saving for kids' college, traveling in retirement, estate planning, all of it. Your financial plan should match up with your rich life vision. And Facet can help make that possible without the exorbitant fees. Late of this recording, Facet is waiving the enrollment fee for new annual members.

• 59:06Ramit Sethi?

  And for my audience, Facet is offering $300 into your brokerage account. If you invest and maintain $5,000 within your first 90 days. Head to facet.com/ramit to learn more about which membership option is best for you. Facet is an SEC registered investment advisor. I'm not a member of Facet and have an incentive to endorse Facet as I have an ongoing fee based contract for cash compensation based on this endorsement. All opinions are my own and not a guarantee of a similar outcome.

• 59:33Speaker 03

  Is it money that's stopping you from connecting? Or is that a convenient excuse?

• 59:40Speaker 02

  That's convenient excuse. The only glaring thing is that excessive, you know, smaller purchase stuff.

• 59:47Speaker 03

  Can I just tell you right now? $500 a month on groceries is not excessive. Your family spends half of what another equivalent family would spend. Like you're not even close to excessive.

• 59:58Speaker 02

  I never, I never personally understood why people spend so much.

• 1:00:01Speaker 03

  That's okay. You don't have to understand.

• 1:00:02Speaker 02

  I don't, I'm just saying for me, and I appreciate what you do. Getting all the weekly groceries, you're the best at it. So I just settled for you being excessive in your own nature with stuff we don't need and end up throwing away.

• 1:00:16Speaker 03

  Can I ask it a different way?

• 1:00:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:18Speaker 03

  Settling is one way to put it. It's a bit of a loaded term. What if it costs $100 a month for Angela to have a hobby? Doesn't hurt anybody. She's entertained, she's productive and feels productive. And once in a while you have some extra stuff, you can donate or whatever. 100 bucks a month. What would you say to that?

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I never thought about it that way. And that's actually what ended up happening. I took the fruit snacks and donated them to the school.

• 1:00:47Speaker 03

  Great.

• 1:00:47Speaker 01

  Kids loved them and within 10 minutes, boom, they were all gone.

• 1:00:50Speaker 02

  I wish you would have just bought the fruit snacks and took them right to the school.

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:54Speaker 02

  That would have made me happy because I'm donating.

• 1:00:56Speaker 03

  She could have, but she didn't. But it doesn't change anything. $100 a month changes nothing out of $188,000 a year. Literally nothing.

• 1:01:09Speaker 03

  But what I think is more haunting truth is that your admission that you've drifted apart. If you wanna reverse that, I think you really could. I think there's a lot of things you could. This is just one of them, but it would take totally reconceptualizing your relationship with money with each other. What do you think?

• 1:01:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think we can do it.

• 1:01:30Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, no doubt.

• 1:01:32Speaker 03

  How would you start?

• 1:01:33Speaker 01

  Going to happy hour.

• 1:01:34Speaker 02

  I guess I'm going to happy hour next week.

• 1:01:37Speaker 03

  Can you say that again as if you wanted to do it because it's about connecting with your wife, not losing?

• 1:01:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:41Speaker 03

  You know, I think the jokes have to stop. Think of yourself not as characters, but as wearing masks. The mask that you each wear is what? Describe it in detail. What is the mask that you wear when it comes to money in your relationship?

• 1:01:54Speaker 02

  Probably just a frown, Debbie Downer.

• 1:01:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, I like that. Keep going.

• 1:02:00Speaker 02

  You know, maybe a blank face, maybe just like no reaction, and you're talking to a wall almost.

• 1:02:06Speaker 03

  Yeah. Just like never getting excited. What else is under the mask?

• 1:02:13Speaker 02

  Hmm, temperatures cold, you know, I had to put a temperature to it. Neutral, cold, arms folded.

• 1:02:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, operating off an old script that some person said who doesn't even know what they're talking about. A million dollars, then it turns out you have more than 50% more, it doesn't change a thing, not particularly knowledgeable about money.

• 1:02:34Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:02:34Speaker 03

  Very perplexing. The decider is actually the one who doesn't even know that much about money.

• 1:02:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:39Speaker 03

  Kind of weird. All of these things. Now, can you flip it? Take that mask off. What's under it?

• 1:02:45Speaker 02

  Um, under it? Exuberant, but reserved at the same time. It's almost like I wanna do more, but step on the brakes.

• 1:02:56Speaker 03

  Why?

• 1:02:57Speaker 02

  I don't know. I don't know if it's old ideology. It's not comfortable in my skin as far as finances go. That's why she handles it. I don't wanna know where the money's going, but yet I don't wanna buy something unless it's needed.

• 1:03:15Speaker 03

  It's kind of like you're, kind of like you're a backseat driver. You don't want to grocery shop, but you want her to cut it by half. You don't wanna know where the money's going, not even to the point of knowing your net worth, but you know that she's spending too much.

• 1:03:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:29Speaker 03

  That's kind of this.

• 1:03:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're right.

• 1:03:32Speaker 03

  It's like if you wanna have a strong point of view on the money, okay, fine, but you gotta get involved.

• 1:03:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:37Speaker 03

  Angela, any of this sound familiar?

• 1:03:39Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:03:40Speaker 03

  You ever tell him that, stopping a backseat driver?

• 1:03:42Speaker 01

  Um, not those words. But I usually say, "We have the money. We're fine. You don't have to worry about that. We can afford that."

• 1:03:52Speaker 03

  And does that ever work?

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  Sometimes.

• 1:03:55Speaker 03

  Doesn't sound like it works. He's even saying no.

• 1:03:57Speaker 01

  Well.

• 1:03:58Speaker 03

  Reassuring people who don't understand money, reassuring them by pointing at numbers, never works.

• 1:04:06Speaker 01

  That I think is the main reason why I'm here.

• 1:04:08Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  That is, that is the reason why I'm here.

• 1:04:11Speaker 03

  You wanted somebody else.

• 1:04:12Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. Who's knowledgeable.

• 1:04:14Speaker 03

  Maybe a man, I don't know if it has to do with being a man or not, to say, "Hey, she was right. You're actually okay", hoping that me saying that reaches him, and then like happily ever after you can go out to dinner and take trips.

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 1:04:31Speaker 03

  Maybe.

• 1:04:31Speaker 01

  That sounds good.

• 1:04:32Speaker 03

  Is that what you wanted?

• 1:04:33Speaker 01

  I sometimes play like a mother role with him and like just going back to that coffee. He's a very hard worker. And we've saved a lot, and I think we've lived a really good life, even though we've saved a lot. So by me just saying, "We have enough money. We can do that", and then him just always saying, "No, I never wanted to do it", I just feel sad that we're not living a bigger life. And it comes down, I think, to money for you a lot of the times.

• 1:04:58Speaker 03

  It sure does.

• 1:04:59Speaker 01

  And you're also a homebody, though, so that sort of plays.

• 1:05:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's.

• 1:05:02Speaker 01

  It's not always about money. It's not always.

• 1:05:05Speaker 03

  Are you justifying for him? Yeah.

• 1:05:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm always justifying.

• 1:05:07Speaker 03

  Why don't you stop doing that?

• 1:05:08Speaker 01

  Okay, I should.

• 1:05:10Speaker 03

  What needs to happen is exactly that, you're making the case for me.

• 1:05:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:15Speaker 03

  The minute either of you starts trying to advocate for yourself, you start justifying for the other, especially you, Angela. Like what, this has happened like 20 times in this conversation. So you end up spinning, spinning, and then you're back like, you just run out of breath. It's not money. You have enough money. You have 50% more than he even thought.

• 1:05:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:34Speaker 03

  It's not money. Come on, we have to be honest with ourselves. And I think you were making some very bold points about taking off the mask. You're exuberant, but I think the word you're looking for is scared or nervous.

• 1:05:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:46Speaker 03

  I'm nervous that if I go out to this dinner, I might like it, then I might wanna do it all the time. I enjoyed this coffee for free, but if I do it once a week, then I might do it once a day, and that's wasteful.

• 1:05:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, for sure.

• 1:05:58Speaker 03

  But you didn't let him get there, and you didn't take the initiative to talk about it. We're talking around it, all of us. We've been talking around it for 30 years. The reason that I'm getting like a little agitated is that you have a long life ahead of you, many decades to get, but also that time goes very quickly.

• 1:06:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:18Speaker 03

  That's why I keep repeating to you, you can go on the way you've gone. You'll take one vacation a year, you'll play this drama in the pantry, your kids will leave, and that's it. But Angela, you wrote to me saying, I think we're living too small a life. What would it look like if you changed your spending to better align with a new, rich life?

• 1:06:41Speaker 01

  What would I do?

• 1:06:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:06:44Speaker 01

  Um, I know it's gonna sound simple, but go out to eat. I would even say just once a month.

• 1:06:53Speaker 03

  Okay, sounds good. Where would you go?

• 1:06:56Speaker 01

  Somewhere on my list.

• 1:06:58Speaker 03

  Would you go solo? Would you go together?

• 1:07:00Speaker 01

  Oh, no, I would go together.

• 1:07:01Speaker 03

  Okay, I like that. And the RV, if and when you get an RV, would that be your primary home?

• 1:07:08Speaker 01

  Hmm, I don't know that we could have it as our primary home.

• 1:07:12Speaker 03

  You'd keep this house?

• 1:07:13Speaker 01

  No, definitely not.

• 1:07:14Speaker 02

  We've talked about, once the kids move out.

• 1:07:17Speaker 03

  Oh, you'd sell it?

• 1:07:18Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:07:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's too big of a house.

• 1:07:21Speaker 03

  How much will you make from it?

• 1:07:22Speaker 01

  About 500,000.

• 1:07:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then find a smaller.

• 1:07:26Speaker 01

  Rancher or something.

• 1:07:28Speaker 03

  You make 500,000? Wow, you're gonna be multimillionaires. Sure you're gonna be able to afford to eat out once a month as having $2 million?

• 1:07:35Speaker 01

  Yes, we can afford to eat out.

• 1:07:37Speaker 03

  Shall we run your retirement numbers?

• 1:07:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:07:40Speaker 03

  Let's assume that you retire in. Five years.

• 1:07:45Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:07:46Speaker 03

  Would that be a fair place to start?

• 1:07:47Speaker 01

  Hmm, yeah.

• 1:07:48Speaker 03

  If you retire in five years, you'll have 1.48 million dollars. We assume a 3% withdrawal rate, not a typical 4, 3 because you would be younger. I want to make sure you don't run out of money. This number is a little flexible, but just assume it. Social Security plus a 10K pension, you'd have about $84,500 in safe withdrawal income. If you retire in 10 years, you'll have 2.3 million dollars as it currently stands. If we assume a 4% withdrawal rate plus Social Security plus a 10K pension, you'll have $130,000 in safe withdrawal income. What do you think about that?

• 1:08:30Speaker 01

  That sounds better.

• 1:08:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, I agree.

• 1:08:32Speaker 01

  That sounds very doable.

• 1:08:35Speaker 03

  What is your natural inclination? Like, right now, hearing these two things, what is, what do you naturally feel? Brian?

• 1:08:43Speaker 02

  Uh, work two more years than that, get to 65.

• 1:08:46Speaker 03

  Get to 65, okay.

• 1:08:47Speaker 02

  That puts us at about 63 or so, give or take.

• 1:08:50Speaker 03

  So, work to 65, you'd have even more, maybe it'd be 135 or something like that. Okay, cool.

• 1:08:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:57Speaker 03

  That's your natural inclination. I hear that loud and clear. Angela, how about you?

• 1:09:01Speaker 01

  Same thing, five years wouldn't be doable.

• 1:09:03Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:09:03Speaker 01

  I'll do 10, not 12.

• 1:09:06Speaker 03

  Okay, so there's a little bit of disagreement here and there. Maybe one of you retires a couple of years early, okay?

• 1:09:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's fine.

• 1:09:11Speaker 03

  So, I like this. What we're doing now is we're going from the clouds to the street. We're like grounding.

• 1:09:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:18Speaker 03

  It's not just about feelings, these abstract feelings and 28-year-old arguments. It's like, no, let's look at some numbers.

• 1:09:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:25Speaker 03

  Let's start to get real, like, time is ticking. I will tell you that my natural inclination would be, first off, I need to run the numbers carefully. Because if we sell the house and we don't have a car payment and we're not paying for kids to eat, but we're also eating out more and traveling more, like, how much do we actually need?

• 1:09:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:45Speaker 03

  Because I'm not trying to make my biggest life decision based on vibes. I need actual numbers. So, that's the first thing I'll do. The second thing my natural inclination is, is how do we get there faster?

• 1:09:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:58Speaker 03

  The thing is, you actually could get there faster. It might mean incomes. You could take some of your expenses, which are, I don't think, properly categorized. An extra 500 bucks a month could be found and put it towards investments. And that could substantially change the outcome.

• 1:10:19Speaker 03

  Do you see that when we're talking at this level, suddenly fruit roll ups is not the issue? That's actually like so small and insignificant. Maybe you need to buy less fruit roll ups. Maybe, but telling Angela, stop buying fruit rolls, so wasteful, won't do it. But actually saying like, hey, if we're able to cut our XYZ costs by $600 a month and direct it to investments, we can retire one year earlier.

• 1:10:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:44Speaker 03

  That's powerful. Does that reach you?

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  That makes sense. Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:10:48Speaker 03

  When you play small for too long, that's all you know.

• 1:10:53Speaker 03

  Part of the reason I want to talk to you is to zoom out. Be like, no, these are big, big life decisions.

• 1:10:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, I hear you. I agree.

• 1:11:01Speaker 03

  The question I would be asking is how do we make the next 10 years magical? Not wait. I'll never wait 10 years.

• 1:11:10Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 1:11:11Speaker 03

  I won't even wait two years. How do we make the next 10 years magical? What's the answer to that?

• 1:11:16Speaker 01

  Travel now. Go out to dinner more, make moments count. And it doesn't always have to include money.

• 1:11:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think money aside, it's got to be us first. You know, money second. Because this is the foundation. This is why we're together for 28 years plus. You know, this has got to work first before the money. That's comes kind of insignificant. You know, it's just numbers.

• 1:11:47Speaker 03

  So how do you do it?

• 1:11:48Speaker 02

  I think I need to, what's the word?

• 1:11:53Speaker 01

  Say yes?

• 1:11:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, not give in, but compromise. And that's what I need to do. I think I need to be a better husband and compromise. And.

• 1:12:06Speaker 02

  You know, kind of rebuild the foundation of this relationship.

• 1:12:11Speaker 03

  Yeah. How would you do that?

• 1:12:14Speaker 02

  Be together more often, spend more quality time.

• 1:12:18Speaker 03

  Well, I think you spend a lot of time together, right? You go on hikes, you're at home, you see each other.

• 1:12:22Speaker 02

  Probably not enough. I mean, because now we're we're kind of singular. You know, we're our own separate islands after work for the most part, unless we have a function or a date or something to do together. So we have to build more time or reserve more time to do more together things.

• 1:12:42Speaker 03

  Should we just do it right now? Because I feel like there's a lot of talk.

• 1:12:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:46Speaker 03

  We're here. Break it down for me. You know, Sunday through Saturday, when do you want to spend more time together? And what is the time? Let's go one by one. Go ahead. Pick a day.

• 1:12:57Speaker 02

  Uh, pick a day? Wednesday.

• 1:13:01Speaker 03

  What do you want to do on Wednesday?

• 1:13:02Speaker 02

  Uh, Wednesday is going to be our designated take the dogs to local park that doesn't have any ticks.

• 1:13:10Speaker 03

  What's your reaction?

• 1:13:11Speaker 01

  I think that sounds great. I love walking and the dogs would enjoy going for a walk.

• 1:13:18Speaker 03

  Awesome. Okay, Angela, your turn.

• 1:13:21Speaker 01

  How about if we go back to the brewery on Tuesday night? Or try the melting pot? Let's just try it. We never did fondue.

• 1:13:29Speaker 02

  Yes, dear.

• 1:13:30Speaker 01

  Would you like to do that?

• 1:13:31Speaker 02

  Is that once a week?

• 1:13:33Speaker 01

  Well, we'll try it this week and see how we feel about it.

• 1:13:36Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:13:38Speaker 03

  Cool. How do you feel about that?

• 1:13:40Speaker 02

  Feel great.

• 1:13:41Speaker 03

  Cool. You know what? I really like that answer. I think sometimes, sometimes we just have to say yes, and our feelings change later. It's like, yes.

• 1:13:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:51Speaker 03

  In fact, like, I'll tell you my philosophy. I think it is so rare for your partner to be genuinely excited by something, especially the later on you are in life. You know, there's like, there's a lot of just dreariness, you know, like

• 1:14:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:06Speaker 03

  life and kids and work.

• 1:14:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:09Speaker 03

  It's difficult. Honestly, what a gift that your partner comes to you and they're excited. Could be the blueberry coffee.

• 1:14:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:15Speaker 03

  Could be going to the melting pot.

• 1:14:17Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:14:18Speaker 03

  My general reaction is yes. Unless I'm like philosophically opposed to it or some crazy thing.

• 1:14:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:27Speaker 03

  I'm just like, oh, my God, it is so rare to see your partner get excited and lit up.

• 1:14:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:32Speaker 03

  I want to reward that. I want to do it.

• 1:14:34Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:14:34Speaker 03

  And I want to see that kind of energy in my relationship. Right? And then she instinctively does the same for me.

• 1:14:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:42Speaker 03

  That's connected. So awesome. I love that. Okay. Brian, what would it take for you to feel safe enough to retire?

• 1:14:51Speaker 02

  Well, I, uh, I want her to work or stop working whenever she feels though she is ready. I mean, I can continue to work forever. If that's what it came down to, but based on the numbers, I'm very encouraged that maybe I don't have to work till I'm 70. So today I feel a bit relieved, I think, a little bit more comforted that I have a little bit of protection.

• 1:15:22Speaker 03

  The two of you have so many different options. You two could retire at different times. That's common, but I don't think any of it happens if you're not actually connected, starting right now.

• 1:15:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:38Speaker 03

  Like you already mentioned, Brian, you've drifted apart.

• 1:15:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:40Speaker 03

  And you continue to drift apart as kids leave.

• 1:15:42Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:15:43Speaker 03

  So unless that comes first.

• 1:15:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:45Speaker 03

  And that involves spending time together, which we just mapped out.

• 1:15:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:15:48Speaker 03

  It's a great first drop. It also means spending money meaningfully.

• 1:15:53Speaker 02

  I agree.

• 1:15:54Speaker 03

  Right? And I think actually getting to where Brian is suggesting something. Literally, it could be we're going to Wawa and we're going to get two blueberry coffees.

• 1:16:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:04Speaker 03

  It literally could be that. It actually does not matter what it is.

• 1:16:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:08Speaker 02

  You're right.

• 1:16:09Speaker 03

  You would be excited, right?

• 1:16:10Speaker 01

  I would be, yes.

• 1:16:10Speaker 03

  I'm in.

• 1:16:11Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely.

• 1:16:12Speaker 03

  So getting those adventurous feelings back and whether it's joining a group together or trying some new stuff, like That bring way closer.

• 1:16:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:22Speaker 03

  And if it costs 10 bucks or 50 bucks, you will have millions.

• 1:16:27Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah.

• 1:16:28Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:16:28Speaker 01

  That feels good.

• 1:16:29Speaker 02

  All right.

• 1:16:30Speaker 03

  What surprised you most during our conversation? Angela?

• 1:16:34Speaker 01

  I have a little anxiety about like you saying us wearing masks and being characters because I feel like we're very real with each other. So that does concern me. I have anxiety about that.

• 1:16:45Speaker 03

  Okay. Concern, anxiety, these are all things that I think are good to explore.

• 1:16:51Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:16:51Speaker 03

  Not hide away, run towards those, don't run away. Brian, what surprised you about our conversation?

• 1:16:56Speaker 02

  Um, just kind of peeling the layers away and kind of getting down to what's significant and what is insignificant. And we've determined that my concerns are they're there, just, just in the grand scheme of things, when we zoom globally, we see its insignificance. That all my angst,

• 1:17:22Speaker 02

  anger, rage, it's all for nothing. When it comes down to it. Because 25, 50 years from now, whatever, it'll be just like, why did you waste that time? The mental anguish on that. Just giving her more pain doesn't get us anywhere. I think you need to peel back some of these layers and get things a little closer or in touch with how you really feel and not just put the wall back up and just lash out, which is the easiest thing. You know, to go to.

• 1:17:57Speaker 03

  Yeah. How do you feel now versus when we first sat down to talk?

• 1:18:01Speaker 02

  I feel a sense of relief. All right, we got this. We're kind of on the right path. Let's shore things up. Let's get them tighter. And then things will just fall into place.

• 1:18:12Speaker 03

  How about you, Angela?

• 1:18:13Speaker 01

  What I'm happiest about is I think when I approach Brian with ideas that I'll have more yeses now.

• 1:18:20Speaker 03

  Nice.

• 1:18:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I think that's a really big thing. It's part of us living too little of a life. But yeah, I, I see things going definitely in a positive way.

• 1:18:28Speaker 03

  I'd like to give a little bit of homework if I could.

• 1:18:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:31Speaker 03

  So you suggested Angela, the melting pot for, I think, next week.

• 1:18:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:37Speaker 03

  Brian, I'd like for you to plan a date night within two weeks.

• 1:18:41Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:18:41Speaker 03

  So it's.

• 1:18:44Speaker 03

  You two decide within two weeks, but Brian, it's up to you. It's gonna involve a little bit of money.

• 1:18:48Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 1:18:49Speaker 03

  And that's it. Keep it, keep it as simple as that and as broad as that. You do whatever you want, whatever is meaningful for the two of you. But bring it up. Same way that Angela does. She comes to you, she's got a plan. Same thing.

• 1:19:02Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 1:19:02Speaker 03

  What I want to do is balance a little bit more of these conversations about money, about life. I know Angela, you've been doing a lot of, you know, like tracking.

• 1:19:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:14Speaker 03

  And my hope is that you can zoom out and focus on the numbers that are meaningful.

• 1:19:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:20Speaker 03

  I talk a lot about getting into three dollar questions versus the thirty thousand.

• 1:19:24Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:19:25Speaker 03

  These thirty thousand dollars actually matter a lot, especially because you want to retire earlier and or have the option to.

• 1:19:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:19:32Speaker 03

  So I'd like for you to get tighter with your numbers. That means going through the book together. I Will Teach You To Be Rich book and the Money For Couples book. Talking about that, you can have a book club. One of you can run one book, the other can run the other. I'd like for you to really absorb what happened today. There's a lot of things, conversations about roles and masks and going together and going apart. It's pretty deep. I want that North Star. What is our rich life? Do we have the ability to retire? Is one of us retiring? Are we going part-time? Are we doing the RV? Okay, let's start there, then we can figure out how to make the money work. In order to do that, you gotta start with what you felt today. Okay?

• 1:20:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:12Speaker 03

  All right. Thank you so much for coming. I appreciate it.

• 1:20:14Ramit Sethi?

  Thank you, Ramit.

• 1:20:15Speaker 03

  You know, Angela and Brian didn't come here for tips on grocery budgeting. They came here because their life feels too small. Ironically, they have the money. If they wanted to retire in five, six, seven years, they probably could. They could pay less on their mortgage, they could redirect that money to investments, they could find an extra five hundred bucks and accelerate their timeline. That's just math. But our conversation has not been about math. A lot of us hide behind complicated math because it's easier to say, I don't understand how a solo 401K works, than admitting you and your partner might not actually share the same rich life vision. Or worse, you're afraid to even ask what theirs is.

• 1:20:56Speaker 03

  And yet, until you create a shared vision, a shared goal, a shared why, you're gonna keep repeating the same old arguments and you're gonna keep up the same performance of the sitcom dynamic, which honestly is very difficult to change after thirty years of marriage.

• 1:21:10Ramit Sethi?

  And if you don't change year by year by year, you drift a little bit further apart. That's the real cost here. I don't care about granola bars. I care about time and intimacy. If they both decide to take a totally fresh look at their relationship with money and with each other, I actually think they could make dramatic changes in just a few months. It'll be hard, really hard, but I think it's worth it. Angela and Brian, I want to thank you for being so open, for coming on, having this vulnerable conversation, and being willing to stick with it for the entire time that we spoke. You've already proven that you can have these difficult conversations. Now my encouragement to you is that it is time

• 1:21:51Ramit Sethi?

  to build something better for the next chapter of your life together. Now, let's check out their followers.

• 1:21:59Speaker 02

  My biggest surprise that a retirement projection is estimated close to 1.5 million. This number provides some comfort and relief as we prepare for retirement years from now. The lesson I learned was that ultimately our relationship stability is far more important than our financial stability. Another takeaway is the importance of open communication and shared financial goals. In addition to investing our money, we need to invest into time spent with each other. Don't sweat over the small stuff like fruit snacks. Although this conversation was difficult for me, it taught me to emphasize personal responsibility, mindset shifts, and the pursuit of a rich life beyond wealth. Specific changes I made thus far, I'm in the process of moving both Roth IRAs over to Vanguard. I am striving to be more respectful and kind to my wife, to be a better husband,

• 1:22:44Speaker 02

  by reducing negativity and open to sharing more life experiences and creating lasting memories. Much gratitude, Ramit. Thank you.

• 1:22:52Speaker 04

  Our biggest surprise by far was that 72% of our expenses, our fixed expenses, that's crazy to me. I thought we were really doing good with fixed, but that's just a crazy number. The other surprise was the way our relationship was portrayed. I know it was just a snapshot of two hours, but I did have a lot of anxiety about it, but then I realized that that was not really us. We spend a lot of meaningful- Time together, maybe it's just not going out to eat and maybe that is actually not important. My takeaway is I can't retire in five years, maybe I don't have to wait 10 years. My other takeaway was maybe it's not about the money. We spend money on things that are meaningful to us.

• 1:23:36Speaker 04

  Um, but maybe we're just simple people that just don't spend a lot of money. I think we're very conscious on the money that we spend and deliberate about it. So it's not that we're cheap. It's just if I don't want to spend money on something, I'm not going to spend money on it. I am setting up a meeting with my school to see if my pension, if I'm being charged for that, if I am, I'm going to change that. So I'm no longer charged. And I decided to bump my $700 up to $1,000 per pay period. So where am I getting that extra $600? I'm picking up extra shifts at the amusement park, which is my bonus job because I actually enjoy that. And if I can work and I enjoy it and make the little bit of money, why not? The only other thing that we're considering is not paying extra on our mortgage

• 1:24:20Speaker 04

  and instead just putting that into our emergency fund so we can build that.

• 1:24:25Ramit Sethi?

  I received this email from Angela and Brian. We're feeling stuck. We've been intentional, but it's hard to tell if we've done enough or what comes next. At one point, we thought we wanted to retire in five years. Now we realize we enjoy our work. We can take more vacations without giving it all up, but we still don't know what the next step should be. We feel like we've done our homework. Now we're just waiting for our next assignment. First of all, I really appreciate the follow up. I want to gently push back. I loved our conversation and I am here to be your guide. But nobody can design your rich life but you. Nobody can overcome your financial challenges but you.

• 1:25:10Ramit Sethi?

  And nobody can live your rich life but you. I think that right now you are looking at this as an assignment, as if you are waiting for somebody to tell you what the next step is. But the entire point, the podcast, in fact, the entire point of 21 years of my work is that your rich life is yours. I don't think you need help with the difference between a traditional and a Roth IRA. If so, you can get it in my book. I think you need to make decisions about what comes next. You, both of you, together. And when you do that, you're going to suddenly discover the difference in going passive,

• 1:25:55Ramit Sethi?

  which is so common for so many of us, to actively designing the kind of life you want. Thank you again. Please keep me updated and I wish you both the best.