Dr. Becky: You’re Not a Bad Parent, You’re Overwhelmed

Kids are not trying to make your life harder. Parents are not supposed to know everything. Most of what we think of as “bad behavior” is actually a nervous system short-circuiting. And most of what parents call “failure” is really lack of support. Dr. Becky joins Trevor and Eugene for a conversation about tantrums, overwhelm, shame, lying, attachment, repair, and what it means to grow up in a world that was never designed to support families. This episode explains why kids explode, why adults collapse, and why the most important sentence a parent can say is “I am still here.” If you want to understand your child, your parents, or yourself, this episode is worth your time.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  An advisory from the Surgeon General found nearly half of parents say most days their stress is completely overwhelming. And when parents are stressed out, it affects their kids.

• 0:08Speaker 01

  Parenting is a full-time job. I know we all work, but parenting is hard. Parenting is not easy. Never has been, never will be.

• 0:15Speaker 02

  At Good Inside, we believe parenting isn't something you're supposed to just know. It's something you can learn.

• 0:22Speaker 01

  That's the one and only Becky Kennedy, aka Dr. Becky as she's known, also known as the millennial parent whisperer. Many parents love the clinical psychologist's videos and podcasts on everything from tantrums to mom rage. She's got more than 4 million followers across social media platforms. And she believes that parents and children are good inside.

• 0:45Trevor Noah?

  This is What Now? with Trevor Noah.

• 0:50Trevor Noah?

  This episode is presented by Whole Foods Market. Eat well for less. Earth can be a lot sometimes. Heat waves, gas prices, bad hair days. Why not go where life is good? Escape to Pluto TV. Turn off your problems and turn on your favorite movies and shows. You know, the ones you already love. From Anchorman, The Legend of Ron Burgundy, to Dirty Dancing, to Top Gun Maverick. From Alias to The X-Files. It's all here and all free. Go where the TV is always good. Escape to Pluto TV. Stream now, pay never.

• 1:30Trevor Noah?

  This segment is brought to you by Google Pixel. You know what's really frustrating? Knowing the exact information you need is somewhere on your phone, but still ending up wasting your time digging through five different apps just to actually find it. Thankfully, Google Pixel 11 is designed with Gemini intelligence, so it can proactively find the information I need right when I need it. Like my flight info on travel days or my calendar when Eugene texts me to hang out. Oh, sorry Eugene, I'm booked. Learn more about what Google Pixel 11 can do at googlestore.com. These AI features are available in select countries and languages for users 18 and over. And make sure to check responses.

• 2:15Trevor Noah?

  You're booked forever, forever. This episode is brought to you by Verizon.

• 2:22Trevor Noah?

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• 3:07Trevor Noah?

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• 3:34Trevor Noah?

  Dr. Becky, thank you for joining us.

• 3:36Speaker 02

  Thanks for having me.

• 3:38Trevor Noah?

  I told you right before we started recording, but I'll tell you again. I don't think there's a topic that excites me more than parenting. Genuinely, genuinely, genuinely. Like, I followed your work. I think I first became aware of you, like most people, during the pandemic. You know, when everyone was forced to be at home with their actual kids. And then they started realizing that they don't like them. And then your videos became the salve. Your videos became the reprieve that parents needed in this time. And then your book has been amazing. And I think, you know, like where I really wanted to get into this conversation from was

• 4:19Trevor Noah?

  behind the book, behind the titles, behind the social media, is your purpose. And like, what do you think you're trying to change? When you actually get out there and you go, good inside, parenting, this is the relationship you should be having with your kids so that your kids could have this relationship with you. What do you think your end goal is?

• 4:36Speaker 02

  I think there's probably nothing like... Your relationship with your kid to allow this duality to happen at once, which is we can put better humans into the world and we can heal so many the unresolved parts of ourselves so we can grow at the same time. And so someone else said this to me and it's resonated more than anything I could come up with myself. She said to me, good inside helps, you know, kind of my kid grow and it helps me return.

• 5:05Trevor Noah?

  Oh, wow.

• 5:06Speaker 02

  I think that's kind of my and a good inside's purpose.

• 5:10Trevor Noah?

  Oh, wow, I love that. Yeah, because oftentimes we think of parenting as a one sided thing. You know, we think of people being parents and that's it. We don't often think about them parenting themselves in the parenting that they're doling out.

• 5:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I started, you know, early on in my career, working with kids and child therapy. I'm a big believer in child therapy, play therapy, all of it. I just found myself thinking that, well, you're with me 45 minutes a week and then you're with your parents all the other minutes of the week.

• 5:45Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 5:45Speaker 02

  Right? And so whatever I do with you, if there's, if your parents aren't along for the ride, if they're still triggered and yelling at you, then this is a little bit of a drop in the bucket. And so, yeah, if a parent wants to help their kid, or on the surface, we always say we just want to change our kid's behavior, make them stop whining, or have fewer tantrums, whatever it is, it brings up so much in us, right? And that's really what happens, that parenting is kind of our best opportunity, I think, in adulthood for growth, because you're just confronted by everything that you didn't yet figure out from your own childhood and it just plays out before your eyes.

• 6:18Trevor Noah?

  As a, as a parent, how many times do you experience a tantrum from your kids where you forget all of the things that you've taught people?

• 6:26Speaker 02

  I mean, innumerable, you know, I mean, I don't know, I haven't been, too many times to tally, you know? Um, yeah, I mean, I, I, I really, I've said this before, I'll say it again, and I mean it with such honesty, that my kids don't have some Dr. Becky person as a mom.

• 6:42Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 6:43Speaker 02

  Right? And, and I, and I also mean equally that I wouldn't wish that upon. I mean, we learn the most in our relationships when people take responsibility for their behavior, when people repair. I wouldn't want to deprive my kids of that opportunity. And that's such a part of healthy relationships. So certainly I have my moments. I can stay calm. A lot of it has to do with have I been taking care of myself, you know, am I, you know, doing my own personal work? Certainly, all of that contributes to my ability to stay calm when they're not. And there's other days and weeks like anyone else when I've run myself into the ground or, you know, I said yes to too many people when inside I really wanted to say no. And then all it takes is my kid whining about dinner for me to completely lose it.

• 7:23Speaker 02

  And I lose it on my kid, but, but everything that happened leading up to that point is really where the story is.

• 7:29Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I love that. I was talking to Eugene about this, like before we came in, we're chatting about trying to find the balance between who you think you are versus who you wish to be. And how complicated that is and how oftentimes the story has been told to you by somebody else. Oftentimes your parents, like that's like the first person in life who tells you

• 7:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 7:50Trevor Noah?

  who you are, like they go, you are a bad kid. You're a naughty kid. Like when I was reading through your book, I was thinking, man, many of the labels I even hold of myself were donated to me and I just kept them. I, I wasn't even told there was an option to not have them. So if you said, Trevor, who are you? I'd be like, oh, I was a naughty kid and I was mischievous and I was, but that's not necessarily how I saw myself.

• 8:13Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 8:14Trevor Noah?

  It's how I was told I was by the adults in my life.

• 8:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I, I often tell parents this, where are kids mirror? So I think you're talking about words. Sometimes we tell our kids who they are through words. But if you're a mirror for your kid, you're showing them who they are. And then kids form their identity by taking that reflection in. And so it's one of the things that's really powerful for parents to know. Cause let's even say there's two kids in the family and so easily with two kids, there can be a binary, right? Oh, this kid is really flexible and generous and this can be really selfish. And why can't you just be more generous like your brother, whatever it is?

• 8:50Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 8:51Speaker 02

  And if you think about what I'm really doing is I'm saying to my kid, you are selfish. That's the generous one. And so I'm showing you in this mirror. You're selfish, but I'm acting like you're going to become more generous. The math doesn't even work, right? And so if we want to bring out the good inside our kids, we have to see that version, which people then confuse with permissiveness. Oh, so everything goes? No, that's definitely not what it means.

• 9:18Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 9:18Speaker 02

  But if I can't see the good inside my kid, they truly, you know, are gonna have a much harder time accessing it themselves.

• 9:25Speaker 04

  Which, that's actually a good point, which brings me to this point, actually. I've been thinking about a lot in what you're saying. If parents are the mirrors to their children, which part does personality of the child play in a role of them growing up as an individual, as a human being who's gonna interact with society meaningfully?

• 9:44Speaker 02

  So personality, temperament, right? Definitely very related, but definitely our kids come into the world with certain predetermined characteristics. I mean, I have three kids, I saw that right away. If I think about my middle kid, that child would not take a bottle from me if she was looking at me. Not joking, I had to face her away.

• 10:06Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 10:07Speaker 02

  As soon as she saw the bottle was for me, breastfeeding was very difficult too, she would vomit her food. And I can't even tell you how much this still represents so much of her. She likes to do things on her, on her own. She doesn't like to depend on people. She actually has such deep need for people, I think that it really scares her. So she almost pushes them away. It was there from the start. This is a kid who wouldn't eat any kind of pureed foods because the only way to get that is to be given. Until with a finger, she could eat it by herself. She wouldn't even eat anything besides from a bottle. That again, she'd only consume facing away. This is a kid also had huge, big feelings from the start.

• 10:49Speaker 02

  The separation anxiety started way earlier, the stranger danger, so intense. That was with her right away. Now, then there's a match between that temperament and the environment you're in. Right? And I think, if I think about my three kids, you know, the, the match that happens, what is my kid's temperament? What do they come into the world with? How able am I to be the type of environment, you know, for this child to help them thrive? We're better matches or easier, more convenient matches for some of our kids than others. And then it's kind of that temperament times environment match that ends up forming a lot of personality.

• 11:30Trevor Noah?

  You speak about good insight, and obviously, that's the thesis behind your work and the book. And there's an anecdote that you share in the book about being in Target, seeing this kid melt down, like just a kid throwing a mega tantrum. We've all seen it, you know, like the throw yourself on the ground, start slamming the ground, drag yourself along. You paint a vivid, vivid picture. And as I'm reading the story, I'm already judging. I'm like, oh, I know this kid. I know this type of spoiled kid, rotten kid, bad kid, all of these things. And then you have this moment where, you know, the kid is being told, you're so bad, you're so bad, you're a bad kid. And you break it down differently.

• 12:14Trevor Noah?

  You know, this is one of the first moments where you talk about like the instruction of trying to highlight the good inside a child. You go, I wrote it down, you're like, you go, you're having such a hard time leaving Target. I get it. We still have to go. I'm with you. Now, when I was reading that, I was like, all right, I mean, I sort of see what you're saying. But if a parent said to a kid, hey, we've got to go, we've got to leave Target, versus, hey, you're having a tough time, I'm with you, but we've still got to leave. What is the difference? Like, what does that actually change for the child?

• 12:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. And just for anyone listening, none of us are going to quote, say the right thing all the time. We all have our moments. There's certainly a time and a place for, you know, whatever we have to say to move things along quickly. But this phrase that's become in some way such an embodiment of, I guess, my philosophy, you're a good kid having a hard time, is such a foundational and such a healing phrase because it does something very profound. It separates identity and behavior. And I think that's really what we're talking about, which is as applicable of an idea to a baby, to a toddler, to a teen, to an adult, right? We all have behavior we're not proud of at every age. And what feels awful in a relationship actually is especially for a kid because they're dependent on us for survival is being seen as that behavior.

• 13:31Speaker 02

  Everything collapses in that moment. My kid is the tantrum. My kid is the selfishness. My kid is the entitlement. And then what happens emotionally for us is our kid becomes our enemy. That's just what happens. It's me against you. You are the enemy. You are the problem. I'm on one side. You're on the other side. You are the problem and I then interact with you. Like that's true. Versus, hold on a second. I have a good kid. It's just always true. I think that is always true. I have a good kid, meaning their identity, what's inside is good. And that's kind of over here and I like using my hands to make a visual. And over here can be a whole range of bad behavior.

• 14:10Speaker 02

  A tantrum, you know, lying to your face, saying, I hate you, saying, you're the worst mom ever. You do nothing for me after getting back from, you know, I don't know, an amusement park where you took your kid where you don't even want to go in the first place. Right? This is what happens. So seeing your kid as a good kid having a hard time leads to a profoundly different pathway than looking at them like they're a bad kid doing bad things.

• 14:34Trevor Noah?

  You know, what you've just tapped into is the reason I was so excited to have this conversation is if you read this book and you think to yourself, oh, no, I don't have kids or it's not about me or I think you're missing the core idea. It's sort of going to the very roots of who we all are as human beings. Because when I read through this story, I went, how many times have each of us or any of us been in a relationship where someone says, this is who you are. You know, you're an inconsiderate person. You're a terrible partner. You know what I mean? Like, these are the things that people say to each other. And I don't know, you know, about everyone, but I don't think most people feel like this is the moment where they want to show up. They want to spend more time defending themselves and they feel like they're not on the same team.

• 15:18Speaker 02

  Well, now we're talking about something really big. We're talking about the collapse of curiosity.

• 15:22Trevor Noah?

  The collapse of curiosity.

• 15:23Speaker 02

  Collapse of curiosity. As soon as, I've never, I said that phrase as if it's like something I have philosophy about. I haven't really thought about it before.

• 15:31Trevor Noah?

  Oh, no, I love that.

• 15:32Speaker 02

  That's what you're talking about because when you see someone in a workplace who's late five days in a row, hey, I need you to be on time tomorrow. We have a big meeting and they're late. What's the narrative in our head? Oh, my goodness, this person is so rude. They're so inconsiderate. Or whatever we say, we're no longer curious. We have no curiosity. Curiosity would say, I wonder what's going on. I do have history with Trevor. He doesn't tend to be late to his own podcast five days in a row. I wonder what's happening for him. And then what happens, and this happens more now than ever, is we confuse curiosity with allowing or approval. No, those are totally different concepts. But if we don't allow ourselves to be curious about behavior, we can't understand it. If we can't understand it, we actually can't improve it.

• 16:17Speaker 02

  So if we get to this tantrum in a grocery store, right? Because my goal with parents too, it's not like, oh, you have a good kid having a tantrum. That's so beautiful. No, I don't want like a million tantrums in Target. It's not like a convenient situation. No, let your anger out. So beautiful. Obviously not, I'm like a normal person, okay? But it's actually just more efficient to be curious. Okay? Because if I can be curious in a moment, first of all, I'm not going to let my kid just have this disaster situation. I might have to say to myself, this stinks. I'm not going to be able to check out my car. I'm going to have to leave and come back. That's just inconvenient and parenting is full of inconveniences. It just is. So I'm going to say to my kid, after trying, let's say, to calm them down, look, you're a good kid, having a hard time, something's going on, I'm picking you up, I'm carrying

• 17:02Speaker 02

  you to the car, we'll come back and get, you know, whatever we were going to get another day. My kid's going to protest, they're not going to say, thank you for your sturdy leadership. Really appreciate this. They're definitely not going to say that. I'm going to continue doing my job and get my kid to the car. And then maybe after my kid's sleeping, again, curiosity would allow me to say, okay, well, what's going on for my kid? Okay, well, I guess we're walking down the aisle and they see a million toys that they want and I told them we're here for one. I guess it's really hard for them to see a lot of things they want and not have them.

• 17:32Trevor Noah?

  Oh, wow.

• 17:33Speaker 02

  Well, you know, I don't even know that many adults that are great at seeing a lot of things that they want and not having them.

• 17:40Trevor Noah?

  Wow.

• 17:40Speaker 02

  What skills might my kid need to be able to see things, want them, and not have them? Because wanting things isn't wrong. I would actually say, I always want my kid to want things for themselves. I just want them to develop the ability to want, not have, and cope with that. Right? But that, that's a skill that takes time. Now, let's keep going, right? Maybe one day I have a little time in my hands, I'd say, yeah, that's hard. Well, how do I get better at hard things? Practice, that's how we get better at swimming. No kids learn to swim by just crossing our fingers, right?

• 18:12Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 18:12Speaker 02

  Bring them to lessons. And so, maybe say, that's hard. Look, we're gonna do something kind of weird today. We're gonna be in our playroom and you're gonna see those red blocks and I'm gonna play with them first and we're gonna take a deep breath and say, oh, waiting is hard and I can do it. Like, I don't know, a little mantra, right? And, and I know it's so easy to think, that takes so much time. I promise you, managing tantrums without developing skills is gonna take way more time.

• 18:37Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 18:38Speaker 02

  But that whole process, or even just thinking about it differently, comes from being able to have a gap between having a good kid and seeing their bad behavior. Identity and behavior being separate, and that gap is what allows for curiosity at any age.

• 18:54Trevor Noah?

  It's interesting that you just brought up the putting the time in now versus putting the time in later, because my, my first thought, when I think of what I've heard most parents say.

• 19:02Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 19:03Trevor Noah?

  When they hear anything like this.

• 19:04Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 19:04Trevor Noah?

  A lot of them, they'll go, I don't have the time for this. That's easy for you to say. Oh, you know what I mean? You know, every time my kid... But what you just said was so key, though. We don't calculate the time that each of those tantrums is taking.

• 19:18Speaker 02

  Right.

• 19:18Trevor Noah?

  And so, we negate the investment that we would be putting into a child. By trying to deal with it and build up the skills and the tools.

• 19:27Speaker 02

  That's exactly right. And I don't have a lot of time either, I want to be honest. Like, I don't have like thirty minutes a day that I'm like teaching my kids skills. That's not how long it takes. But in life, for anything, you tend you tend to spend time kind of preparing.

• 19:40Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 19:40Speaker 02

  Or reacting. And whatever way you spend time, you don't mentally account for it as time. If you spend a lot of time reacting, you don't think of it as time.

• 19:49Trevor Noah?

  No.

• 19:50Speaker 02

  Although also, you go to bed probably feeling awful about yourself. You wake up at two AM being like, oh, this stinks. You're just up for an hour in the middle of the night. It's actually a lot of time. Where you're gonna spend a couple minutes with your kid before they go to bed. A lot of these things can take ninety to one hundred twenty seconds, right? It's not like I do this with my kid. We have some profound conversation, you know?

• 20:09Trevor Noah?

  What would those what would those ninety seconds be?

• 20:11Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 20:11Trevor Noah?

  Give me an example, like, so let's say you've had the target meltdown. Your kid was in a store, they lost they lost it. I mean, they just went crazy. They were rolling around. They were doing things. You had to carry them out while they were screaming like you were kidnapping them. You get them home, you know, your day has been rough. What are those ninety seconds?

• 20:27Speaker 02

  The first thing I would say that day is you're done for the day. Like, there's no learning, lecturing that should happen. You're activated. You're probably resentful of your kid. Your job is just to manage that. Let's say it's now the next day. Again, you have to start from a place of curiosity. What's going on for my kid? I actually think if we think of it like swimming, what skill is my kid missing? That's a really helpful question. It's probably the skill of, again, maybe it's wanting and not having, something like that.

• 20:51Trevor Noah?

  Because they were drowning essentially in this moment.

• 20:53Speaker 02

  They were drowning.

• 20:54Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 20:54Speaker 02

  But also, they didn't they've never learned how to cope with that moment.

• 20:57Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 20:57Speaker 02

  They don't just get gifted it at age seven or age twenty seven, frankly. You don't get gifted those skills either. So, one, a story. Immediately when you make something a story that you struggled with, you're going to make the moment less explosive for your kid the next time. Because as soon as your kid feels less alone in a struggle.

• 21:16Trevor Noah?

  Mm hmm.

• 21:17Speaker 02

  You reduce shame. And when you reduce shame, you make things less explosive. Seriously, the next day over breakfast, I might say, I don't know if I ever told you this. I remember going to a grocery store with my dad, and he told me I could get a Milky Way. And I really wanted a Milky Way and a Twix and Reese's and a Hershey bar and a hundred grand. How do you think I handled that? And this is the best moment, if you have a kid who's verbal, because I think you probably just got one thing and like went on. And you just, oh, no. No. I have a little bit of a situation, you know, something like that, right? You did, yeah, I mean, it's, it's really hard to see things you want and not have them. Hmm.

• 22:02Speaker 02

  I would say that's, you're done for the day. Now, in that moment, when you're telling a story, do not look at your kid after and saying, "Just like it is for you." You kind of ruin. Like, whenever I hear a parent do that, I'm like, just-

• 22:14Speaker 05

  Where were you two months ago?

• 22:15Speaker 02

  No. That's-

• 22:17Speaker 05

  I'm not gonna lie, I thought that's how the story ends.

• 22:19Speaker 02

  No.

• 22:20Speaker 05

  No, I thought that, I thought it was gonna be that thing. I thought you'd turn and be like, "And you see Eugene."

• 22:25Speaker 02

  Right.

• 22:25Speaker 05

  "Remember when you did that?"

• 22:26Speaker 02

  Exactly, no. You take it out of like the reverie, just like allow it, trust that it helps. Another thing, let's say that day you have to take your kid grocery storing, going to the grocery store. You could say to your kid, this is such a powerful one, so simple. "I wonder what it's gonna be like to be at Target today. I wonder if you're gonna see something you want, and I'm gonna say no." "Oh, what would that be like?" And again, if you have a kid, like most kids, they're gonna roll your eyes and say nothing. Fine, don't take the bait. "I don't know about for you, that might feel annoying, I don't know. Let's just get ourselves a little bit ready for that." This is true for adults too. So much of how we feel hard moments is the feeling and the surprise of the feeling. And if you remove the surprise, you're left with just the feeling.

• 23:10Speaker 02

  And that actually makes the feeling a lot easier to cope with because you're no longer feeling disappointed or jealous and feeling surprised. It doesn't feel kind of like an attack to you. Same thing is true with adults. "Hey, we're gonna have dinner with friends. Look, I'm making this up, but we're having a hard time getting pregnant. I'm just gonna tell you in advance, I know our friends are, I don't know, seven months pregnant. It might be a little hard, and like, let's just both get ready. We're happy for them, we're kind of having a hard time. Totally makes sense that it's gonna be a little of a tricky dinner." People handle that a lot better than if they show up and they're- Yeah. -surprised by a situation. So, removing the surprise is one thing you could do. That again, takes, I don't know, 90 seconds in advance and makes the situation more manageable.

• 23:54Speaker 04

  So here's here's my thing that I struggle with as a parent. How much of me parenting is just me giving out advice and modeling the behavior that I want to see? And how much of it is conditioning? Cause I'll give you an example. When I was growing up, I had four siblings, I was number three or four. My my older brother was what was deemed the naughty one. But it's not like he slept without food, he had a bedroom to go to. So his behavior was almost said as if it was part of him. But my mom always said one thing to me when I was growing up, he's like, if there's one thing that I know about you is I never have to worry about you. Not at the store, not when we go visit other people. You, I ne- but you, I never.

• 24:40Speaker 04

  But you, I I never have to worry about. And I, as I grew up and I realized, I tried to be less of a problem to people than I need to be.

• 24:49Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 24:50Speaker 04

  Right? So I'm thinking to myself, was I parented that way or was I conditioned to be that way?

• 24:55Speaker 02

  Well, now we're talking about birth order, which is such a fun topic. And I'm gonna answer your question by probably answering neither of your questions. But tell me if it's useful anyway, because I think it's getting to the core. I think about this as you're in a system. You're in a system of siblings. Siblings are systems, marriages are systems, workplaces are systems, whole families are systems. I think it's helpful to think about in any system, there's only a hundred percent of equality to go around.

• 25:23Speaker 04

  So there's an infinite number?

• 25:25Speaker 02

  Well, let's say there's only a hundred.

• 25:26Speaker 04

  Oh, there's a finite.

• 25:27Speaker 02

  A finite number.

• 25:28Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 25:29Speaker 02

  So there's a hundred percent of acting out.

• 25:31Speaker 04

  Right.

• 25:32Speaker 02

  And naughtiness to go around, which by the way, is often a kid's way of just learning how to feel their feelings. And they don't yet have skills to manage those feelings, so it's all coming out. So it seems like in your family system, the message was your brother owns a hundred percent of that.

• 25:47Speaker 04

  He has time shared to the to the tantrum holiday home.

• 25:50Speaker 02

  Literally. So there is zero percent left for you to pick up. Right? Now, one of the struggles with that is usually it's helpful as we become older in life to not have a lot of rigidity. Like, no one wants to have a hundred percent of any quality. You don't want to have a hundred percent of acting out, but you also don't want to have zero. Because if you have zero percent of that, one of the things you tend to learn over time is my job is to scan every room. And figure out what everyone needs from me and keep things very, very peaceful. And often the cost of doing that to such an extreme can be some self abandonment. Like, I don't really know what I want, or sometimes I feel like I want something, even if it'll rock the boat a little bit.

• 26:33Speaker 02

  Or maybe I have to distance myself from my anger because it would come out in a big way. And that's kind of my brother's role. And so I think what you're saying is so much of your childhood was shaped by these sibling dynamic roles that were kind of part of birth order. And probably part of our adulthood, I think, is realizing, and you were kind of saying this too, the lessons we learned in our early years. And the ways we had to adapt to keep us safe were really protective back then and just really impressive and adaptive. But can in many different ways work a little bit against us sometimes in adulthood.

• 27:13Speaker 04

  How many of our romantic partners are we finding ourselves as the other person parenting?

• 27:21Speaker 02

  How many of our romantic partners, like, are we parenting our romantic?

• 27:25Speaker 04

  Do we find ourselves parenting more or do we find ourselves enjoying the fruits of how they were parented? Does it make sense?

• 27:34Speaker 04

  So if someone is really great to me, am I reaping the rewards of how great they were raised? And how well rounded they are as an individual? But if, let's say, for example, I'm dealing with their tantrums, they're trying to take this, they're trying to give that, they're trying to do that.

• 27:49Speaker 02

  Right.

• 27:49Speaker 04

  Am I now fulfilling the role of a parent because they didn't have 100% timeshare of the time from holiday home?

• 27:55Speaker 02

  But I think, I think we're, I think we're talking about, well, how do we end up with the people we end up with? Which to me, who we end up being attracted to in our kind of adult life is in some ways just an activation of our earliest attachment patterns. It's what feels like home. And so if what feels like home, based on your childhood is, okay, I've become really expert at keeping things peaceful, never getting in trouble, being really, really stable. Because again, my brother had 100% of all the other things. Well, if that's my puzzle piece.

• 28:33Speaker 02

  What other puzzle piece would be a really, really good match with mine? Probably someone where there's a lot of stuff going on.

• 28:41Trevor Noah?

  Oh, wow. Hundred percent chaos.

• 28:42Speaker 02

  Hundred percent chaos because that actually feels like home to you. And you know how to be in a relationship.

• 28:50Trevor Noah?

  You know how to be the counterbalance to that chaos.

• 28:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's attraction is more about familiarity than it's about anything else. And if you're privileged enough to have an early attachment style that is actually in line with the adult relationship you would want.

• 29:07Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 29:08Speaker 02

  Like I used to always say to my clients in private practice, that's like an amazing privilege. Because then when you have that first couple of dates and you're like, oh, I just feel like there's this magic. That can be an amazing sign. I can tell you with a lot of the adults I worked with, they would say, I'm actually learning that who I'm initially attracted to is almost my best warning sign. Like, I can't go on a second date with that guy. I just almost know how it's gonna end.

• 29:32Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 29:32Speaker 02

  That that becomes almost the reason to say no.

• 29:36Trevor Noah?

  That is, it's so interesting when you, when you break it down, you know, to the child level and then bring it back. Because it, it feels like all of it is a slingshot. It feels like our childhood is a slingshot into adulthood. And then it becomes exponentially larger because of the effect that we have on the world and the, the agency we have over our own lives. And like you, you have this line where you say, a tantrum is just a nervous system that is short circuiting. And when I, when I thought of that with a child, it sort of made more sense.

• 30:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:06Trevor Noah?

  But then with adults, you see it and it has so much more of an effect on people. Because if you're a child throwing a tantrum, maybe it's you flailing in a supermarket. If you're an adult having a tantrum, you might walk into a supermarket and shoot everybody. Do you, do you know what I mean? So when you, when you look at it through the lens of like a parent and a child in that moment, what is the nervous system that we're trying to repair in that moment? And what are we trying to allow? And how do you even find that balance? Like, how much do you let and how much do you not? Because I've seen people. Who are really repressed, or they've, they've, they'll tell you, I was in the strictest household, and I never threw a tantrum, and I never this and that, but then they have like a secret life.

• 30:44Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 30:45Trevor Noah?

  You know, so, so how do you, how do you as a parent then know what the balance is? Do you ever know?

• 30:51Speaker 02

  So, look, in any given moment, I don't know if we ever, you know, have complete clarity of like, you know, this is the perfect intervention, but I think we're really talking about like what a parent's job is. Right? And I think this is like a very core idea that can be applied in a bunch of different scenarios. We're not making it up each time, right? Because most parents I know, they want to do their job well. It's the job they care the most about, but parenting in general has been like having a job without a job description. Because when I ask parents, okay, well, what is your job when your kid's having a tantrum? I'll say, I have no idea. Well, how can you do your job well in any specific scenario? If that baseline, you don't even know what your job is. So I think a parent has two main jobs all the time.

• 31:32Speaker 02

  And it's boundaries and validation. Boundaries are limits we set. There are limits we set. There are decisions we make, often for a kid's long-term benefit. It's kind of like the structure a kid grows up with around things can only go so far. Not because I'm not going to let you win, but actually related to the fact that, and this is very important, my number one job is to keep you safe. Now, that's been, I think something shifted in the last decade or two where we've confused safety with comfort. Safety does not mean comfortable and happy and optimized all the time.

• 32:07Trevor Noah?

  Oh, okay.

• 32:07Speaker 02

  But safe, it's not safe for you to run around Target, taking things from the wall and, I don't know, throwing them to the ground. It's not safe for you to throw sand in the sandbox at kids. It's not safe for you to watch endless hours of TV or be on your iPad. Those things just aren't safe. So we have to set boundaries, there are limits. And a kid always has the same reaction to a boundary. They're upset. They have a tantrum, you know? Throw a tantrum tends to be a phrase I don't love because it almost seems like it's this active, like, yeah, like mischievous kid being like, "I'm going to throw."

• 32:39Trevor Noah?

  Little boomerang, the thing to throw.

• 32:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's just like this, you know, it's, I think tantrums are when, or any bad behavior, are just when feelings are greater than skills.

• 32:47Trevor Noah?

  Oh.

• 32:48Speaker 02

  That's all.

• 32:48Trevor Noah?

  Oh, I like that. That's a good one. Any bad behavior is when feelings are greater than skills.

• 32:53Speaker 02

  At any age.

• 32:54Trevor Noah?

  Oh, I really like that.

• 32:55Speaker 02

  Right? And for decades, we've kind of punished feelings or punished behaviors, but the answer is to level up skills, which never happens when you're punished.

• 33:03Trevor Noah?

  So when you're in that situation,

• 33:05Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:05Trevor Noah?

  let's, let's go deeper into, into this world. You have this child and you're having this experience with them. How do you then, because I love that you brought up safety, because the first thing I thought of was, like, especially like black parents particularly.

• 33:21Trevor Noah?

  Almost everywhere in the world, I can show you a black parent who has said to their child at some point, a version of, "If I don't kill you, the cops are gonna kill you." Or, "If I don't beat you, the world is gonna beat you." Or, like, they're going, "I need to keep you safe." Yeah, rather me.

• 33:37Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 33:37Trevor Noah?

  They always say that, "Rather me. If I don't do this, it's gonna be way worse when you get out there."

• 33:42Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:43Trevor Noah?

  How do you then? How do you imbue your child with that knowledge? When they're at an age where they maybe don't understand it, because, you know, on the one hand, you're saying you're good inside.

• 33:53Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:54Trevor Noah?

  But I'm assuming you also want to let the child know that this is not how society deems.

• 33:58Speaker 02

  Not everyone will see you that way.

• 34:00Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, like, how do you, how do you, how do you do that without telling them that they're bad? How do you say to them, "Hey, this is, you'd be considered a criminal, man," is like the best way to put it. But in Japan? Yeah. You can roam free. Exactly.

• 34:12Trevor Noah?

  Wisconsin? Yeah. Yeah, but it's like, how do you say like, "I don't think you're a criminal, but this is criminal behavior," is, is a good way to put it. How do you, how do you do that?

• 34:20Speaker 02

  Well, let's, I don't know, let's have some example. Let's say my kid is hitting another kid on a playdate.

• 34:25Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 34:25Speaker 02

  Something like that, right? Or on the playground, maybe even more public, right? Let's start with the job and then we'll talk about the nuance.

• 34:31Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 34:31Speaker 02

  The nuance we're talking about is very real and very important, right? And not, not all kids are seen the same way.

• 34:37Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 34:37Speaker 02

  Right? And so I think you're also asking, if you have awareness as a family, my kid won't be seen in a positive light in the world.

• 34:43Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 34:43Speaker 02

  Do I? Mimic that behavior in my home? Or does my home have to offer something different to that child? Okay, so let's just say my kid is hitting. If I think about boundaries and validation, just as foundational. Boundaries would be saying to a kid, "I won't let you hit your sister. I'm not gonna let you hit your friend." And let's say I'm on the playground. I would literally take my kid and pull them away. This is probably the number one thing I've seen done very differently by parents. And I urge them to realize a boundary is not saying, "Stop hitting. We don't hit." Those are requests, right? And again, if you're not hitting your kid, they know we don't hit. So, but it's kind of like we're saying to a kid, "I'm watching you unable to control yourself and make a good decision,

• 35:27Speaker 02

  so my best intervention is going to ask you to make a good decision." Like, it confuses kids. They act out more because they don't have an adult. They don't actually have anyone keeping them safe. And so a boundary often is physical, which doesn't mean it comes from a place of harm. It actually comes from a place of protection. It's something I do to protect my kid because they're not being safe. Going back to being a mirror, I don't want my kid to experience themselves as the kid who hits everyone on the playground. That's not good for them to build their identity. So I'm gonna stop them and pull them to the park bench. Not like, "You're embarrassing me. What's wrong with you?" But, "Hey, you're a good kid having a hard time, and no, I'm not gonna let you go back to the sandbox. I still see that you're so activated." Now I'm on the bench with my kid. And again, this is a made-up scenario. Who knows if I'd actually have the presence of mind?

• 36:09Speaker 02

  But then, it's a good day in the studio without my children.

• 36:13Speaker 04

  And in Japan.

• 36:14Speaker 02

  And in Japan. I guess it always happens there. I have to learn more. Gotta learn, gotta drink what they're drinking. So let's say I'm sitting with my kid. I've done this job. I've set a boundary, right? Now I can do the other part of my job, which is some version of, "Oh, there was only one red shovel. Oh, it was so hard to wait for that red shovel." Yeah. Um, validating the struggle that was underlying the behavior. I'm validating the feelings. Yeah, it makes sense you're mad. He was playing with your red shovel. I'm not gonna let you hit. That's why we're taking a break here. But kids can't learn to manage feelings they don't think they're allowed to have.

• 36:52Speaker 02

  If you think about what it means to manage a feeling, it means I'm allowed to have this feeling inside my body.

• 36:57Trevor Noah?

  Must have it first.

• 36:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's allowed to live in my body. And if you don't feel like a feeling is allowed to live in your body, there's two options. You try to

• 37:06Trevor Noah?

  Suppress it?

• 37:07Speaker 02

  Or it comes out in behavior.

• 37:08Trevor Noah?

  Oh, wow.

• 37:08Speaker 02

  And then coming out in behavior, actually, it's like, well, you told me I'm not supposed to feel angry, so I'm just trying to get it out, right? Through a hit, through your extremities, through I hate you. Okay, so now let's say I'm back home with my kid and I'm thinking, unlike me, I have white children, like, like, this is bad news in a different way.

• 37:26Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 37:27Speaker 02

  Right? And I'm more fearful, right? About what this need means for my, you know, black child.

• 37:32Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 37:32Speaker 02

  I think, and again, this is probably not happening with like a two-year-old. I don't know about the nuance of the conversation, but these are conversations, you know, that I think are important. Look, I'm always gonna be on your team. My job is to help keep you safe. And

• 37:48Speaker 02

  not everyone is going to give you the benefit of the doubt.

• 37:52Trevor Noah?

  Oh.

• 37:52Speaker 02

  This is, this is something we're gonna, this is not like a one-and-done conversation, but yeah. And so in our home, probably, you know what? We're gonna have to like, practice certain, in my mind, skills even more. We're gonna have to manage certain realities. You're gonna have a lot of feelings about the fact that you're looked at when you're walked down this, when you're walking down the street very differently than some of your friends, right? And I'm going to be someone you can come to, to talk to about that.

• 38:20Trevor Noah?

  It's acknowledging the unfairness of the world and basically saying to them, hey, I know that your world will not treat you fairly, but I want you to know that I'm always gonna treat you fairly. And I think that's, that's a slight difference, because speaking from personal experience, I don't think my mom necessarily said that to me, but I think that might have been her intention. But she was going, I can't let you, she's like, I have to keep you safe by doing this before they do it to you, because they won't know when to stop. And that's often what she said. She's like, you'll get killed. You know?

• 38:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:51Trevor Noah?

  But it's interesting to think of it this way, is to say, the world's not gonna be fair to you. I will always be fair to you, so you have to trust me in this, but...

• 39:00Speaker 02

  And I don't, I don't, just, I, like, I don't wanna claim to be some, like, expert in parenting black children. Like, that is, like, you know, like, that is not my lived experience. I mean that, like, I really do, you know? And I feel like, along those lines, you know, I think about friends of mine, colleagues, like, within the Good Inside community. There's this amazing woman, Mylee Teal, who, you know, we talk a lot about these. She leads, like, our Black Parents Room. And like, what is this line? And these ideas make sense, and they feel very different from how I was brought up. And I feel like my son, sometimes, like, needs these skills and needs to understand how to regulate his emotions. The stakes are even higher. And Becky, like, you don't walk around with the same fears as I do, and that plays out in my responses. And so, yes, so I think, but this is,

• 39:44Speaker 02

  that is, I guess, just a different framework.

• 39:46Trevor Noah?

  Right. But every parent is raising their kids from there, because depending on where you are, like, you'll come to South Africa, and now your child, Black is the majority, you know? You'll be, so it's, you're always raising your child within the system that they exist within, whether you like it or not.

• 40:02Trevor Noah?

  Don't go anywhere, because we got more What Now? After this. Everybody has that oddly specific thing that they're curious about. Maybe it's restoring old watches. Maybe it's Japanese ceramic making. Maybe it's watching someone explain why one bridge in a remote area of Norway is secretly better than all the other bridges in the world. YouTube always has exactly what you're looking for, even when you didn't know you were looking for it. With YouTube Premium, those deep dives feel even smoother. You get ad-free viewing, but you also get background play when you need your hands free. And you get offline downloads, so you can keep watching wherever you happen to be, even if you happen to be off the grid.

• 40:46Trevor Noah?

  It's everything you already love about YouTube just somehow even better. Yeah, one of my favorite YouTube Premium features is Smart Downloads. Because how many times have you gone somewhere and realized, "Ah, I forgot to download anything!" And now, you're on the way to the airport, and you're like, "Download, download, download, download." You're on the plane, "Download, download, download, download." There's no Wi-Fi. "I wish I downloaded." Now, all of those things that you were gonna watch are just on the internet. Smart Downloads basically thinks ahead for you. It automatically downloads recommended videos based on what you like to watch. So even when you forget to prepare, YouTube Premium didn't. I love it. It's like packing for a trip and discovering somebody already remembered the thing you always leave at home. It's always the underwear.

• 41:29Trevor Noah?

  If you like YouTube, you'll love YouTube Premium. Sign up now for your free trial at youtube.com/premium. Terms apply. Cancel anytime.

• 41:40Trevor Noah?

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• 42:23Trevor Noah?

  with pumpkin blondies, apple brown butter cookies, and chocolate bourbon pecan pie. And with no artificial sweeteners like sucralose, artificial colors like red dye number forty, or high-fructose corn syrup store-wide, nothing gets in the way of the flavors you came for. Shop four flavors with higher standards at Whole Foods Markets. Earth can be a lot sometimes. Heat waves, gas prices, bad hair days. Why not go where life is good? Escape to Pluto TV. Turn off your problems and turn on your favorite movies and shows. You know, the ones you already love. From Anchorman, The Legend of Ron Burgundy, to Dirty Dancing, to Top Gun Maverick. From Alias to The X-Files.

• 43:08Trevor Noah?

  It's all here and all free. Go where the TV is always good. Escape to Pluto TV. Stream now, pay never.

• 43:24Speaker 04

  When I heard you were coming, I was particularly excited because, one, I wanted to ask you, do you have a visa? Oh, no, you don't need a visa, passport to come to South Africa. So you can live at our house for a little bit because I think, we need you.

• 43:35Speaker 02

  I'm in.

• 43:38Speaker 02

  Give me some dates.

• 43:39Speaker 04

  Well, my question is, and I've often had to struggle with this. As a male, single parent, raising a daughter.

• 43:48Speaker 04

  I sometimes feel insecure about what I might be missing out in imparting to her. Is there a study that's conducted to show what the difference is between kids that grow up being raised by a single parent who's the same gender as them versus the opposite gender?

• 44:04Speaker 02

  I wish I was given this question as a little bit of prep because I wish I could.

• 44:08Speaker 04

  You know, sixteen years ago, that's what I would have loved.

• 44:15Speaker 02

  But the thing I want to latch on to that you said, I don't know, I'm sure there is some study. I can't recite it right now, but to me, what you said is so poignant as as an amazing initial conversation with your daughter.

• 44:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 44:29Speaker 02

  This is something I think about. You are a girl being raised by a single father. That allows us some amazing, special moments that would never happen if our family system was different. And I'm sure it also means not having other moments because of that exact same configuration. And if you ever feel like there's things you're missing, and if you ever feel angry rationally or irrationally about it, like, I'll always listen, not to prove, not to disprove, just to listen. And I can hear that from you, right? I mean, to me, sometimes that's, you know, an opening for a conversation that could be more powerful than something we learned from a research study.

• 45:13Speaker 04

  I've often found that whenever we have, we've had actually that conversation. What I found is it made her open up more to me. And she is now aware that not all her friends see their fathers the same way. Their fathers are the enforcers.

• 45:29Speaker 02

  Right.

• 45:29Speaker 04

  They're the ones who get things done.

• 45:30Trevor Noah?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 45:31Speaker 04

  They're the ones that, you know, if, if, hey, if that guy comes back and this is not done.

• 45:37Trevor Noah?

  You know, it's funny, it's funny you say that. Sorry to jump in.

• 45:39Speaker 04

  No, no, no, go ahead.

• 45:39Trevor Noah?

  But it's funny you say that because I I've actually come to realize, and we we sort of had a conversation around this, you know, in some of the other episodes, is oftentimes it's easiest to spot the gaps in the situation that we live within. And then it makes us feel like there are no gaps in other situations.

• 45:56Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 45:57Trevor Noah?

  But to your point, I can relate to that as well, where I grew up in a world thinking like, oh, man, you know, I didn't live with my father, and so what did this mean? And it would have been better until I met people who went. My father terrified me and and you know, I don't even know what a hug feels like. And I didn't grow up in a soft household and I don't know how to express my emotions and I don't know. And then I realized, oh, wow, you you always, unless you like super kids. And even then, by the way, I met I met someone, I've met a few people, but there was one that really sticks out to me. Someone who complained saying.

• 46:33Trevor Noah?

  They resent the fact that their parents were so perfect because they feel like it didn't prepare them for an imperfect world.

• 46:41Trevor Noah?

  And I remember going, wait, what did you just say? And they're like, yeah, I I'm not streetwise. I don't know how to handle like chaos. I because everything was just. Everyone in the world doesn't match up with with what I grew up with. So it's it's interesting that you say that as like as a realization.

• 46:56Speaker 02

  Well, I feel like I saw a lot of those kids. Who were in their twenties in my practice, who I would, to me, the word perfect for that is an interesting word choice anyway. But parents who swooped in at every second, always optimizing for happy and ease. And not surprisingly, those kids not only are not prepared for a difficult world, are remarkably fragile and anxious. Because the range of experiences they learned to cope with was this.

• 47:21Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 47:22Speaker 02

  Versus the range of experiences you need to learn to cope with in childhood to be resilient and functioning as an adult. Is this now, I'm not trying to say it's this, maybe wider is. Trauma and abuse, right? But certainly, there's a lot between that and always happy, always. Perfect, that that's that's really dangerous for kids in a different way.

• 47:42Trevor Noah?

  So how do you how do you find that balance? Like, let's let's use the sandbox example. You know, because I love that you brought that up. We we had um, we had Jonathan Haidt on the podcast. And you know, he was talking about his book, The Anxious Generation, and we were talking about the complexities of. Society overprotecting kids and underprotecting kids. You know, so now we live in a world where children are overprotected in real life and underprotected on online.

• 48:05Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 48:06Trevor Noah?

  You know? Yes.

• 48:07Speaker 02

  It's one of his best lines.

• 48:08Trevor Noah?

  It really is.

• 48:09Speaker 02

  So good.

• 48:09Trevor Noah?

  It's perfect.

• 48:10Speaker 02

  So good.

• 48:10Trevor Noah?

  It nails it. And in the conversation, even as we're having it now, you go, there are so many complexities, like I, I, for instance. Will walk past playgrounds in New York or wherever and. I'll see how the parents are looming over their kids.

• 48:25Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 48:26Trevor Noah?

  Every conflict is interrupted. Every, I mean, even the idea of a skirmish before it even happens.

• 48:32Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 48:32Trevor Noah?

  Is intercepted by the parent to go, hey, there's only one shovel. Now you will each play with it like this. And I, and I always say for me, it always feels like a, like a prison yard more than a playground.

• 48:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:43Trevor Noah?

  Because it doesn't feel like the kids are solving their own issues. It doesn't feel like they're developing their own traits. It doesn't feel like. So I'd love to know how you, how you think of that balance because you're, you're a parent. You're seeing your kids punch someone or your kid is being punched. How many punches before you step in?

• 48:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:58Trevor Noah?

  Do you go like my kid takes four shots and then I'm in? Or is it one? Or is it like, no, I'm serious. Like, how do you know? How many shots your kid gets to take before? Yeah. How do you figure that out?

• 49:09Speaker 02

  Well, first of all, all of this starts so far before the sandbox. That just is the public representation of so much that is or isn't happening in a kid's home.

• 49:19Trevor Noah?

  Oh.

• 49:19Speaker 02

  Right? I mean, how a kid acts on a playground, but by the way, I'm not saying it's representative of everything a kid is. But in general, the themes are much bigger than a playground. What is a kid expected to do for themselves? Right? How? How much in the home, if there's, let's say, two siblings? Is it, well, we have two of every item, so kids are never arguing about things. That would be a horrible policy. Right? I mean, you want your kids' early life to prepare them for adulthood. Like, that's what I always tell parents, like, to be very long-term greedy about parenting. Right? We want.

• 49:51Trevor Noah?

  Long-term greedy.

• 49:52Speaker 02

  Long-term greedy. Right? And so there's a dance, though. And to me, safety is usually the line. Physical, you know, kind of physicality.

• 50:01Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 50:01Speaker 02

  Someone hitting another kid on the playground, I'm not going to wait for that to happen four times. I just think I'm probably, again, if I have a kid who can get physical. I might even say, we're gonna do certain things at home to get ready. Let's practice. Let's even, I might be closer to my kid on the playground in that situation, just so they don't experience themselves as out of control. But I actually don't think that's what's happening the majority of the time. The majority of the time. I think these days we're seeing parents just remove any friction or discomfort.

• 50:29Trevor Noah?

  Okay, yeah.

• 50:30Speaker 02

  That to me is really the problem. So let's say there's three kids. Again, there's always three red shovels. Because Bobby doesn't like blue anymore, and so everyone has to have red.

• 50:40Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 50:40Speaker 02

  Again, if there's a parent listening who's like, should I not have three red shovels? That's one example. But that just shouldn't be like the representation of, you know, your whole. Parenting approach. We want kids, it sounds bad. You want kids to be frustrated. You want kids to be disappointed. You want kids to be jealous unless forever as a parent, you're going to remove those feelings from their existence for the rest of their life. Again, you can't develop coping skills for feelings you've never experienced. Like, it doesn't happen, right? And so, the playground might be a bad example because if that's the first place you're letting your kid develop coping skills, it, it, you're probably gonna get overactivated.

• 51:24Speaker 02

  But let's even say, you know, it's a smaller environment, not as over-stimulating, let's say, as your house, right? Maybe your kid has a friend over for a playdate and they're hoarding every single item. Now, it's not gonna be fun, okay? But let's say, before this kid has a playdate, it might say, "Look, it's hard to share toys. It's true. And when we have friends over, we allow everyone to use toys. Let me tell you, no one will take a toy after. You'll get all the toys back and part of my job is to help you figure this out." Maybe I'll say something like, "I know you have that really special Lego set. Let's put that away. I understand you're working on it. You don't want someone to touch it." After that, part of my job on this playdate is going to be to help you share.

• 52:07Speaker 02

  Which means, if you're playing with a fire truck and Bobby starts playing with the police car that, by the way, you've never played with for four years and only care about when Bobby touches it, I am actually gonna step in to help Bobby keep playing with that. Now, a parent hears that. What that means, and this is gonna be awful if this is the first time, I'm gonna spend the playdate with my kid in another room managing their tantrum while Bobby randomly is at my house playing with a police car with nobody because his friend is freaking out. Like, and, and to be clear, parents like, "Do you enjoy that?" No, of course, it's a completely unenjoyable situation for Bobby, my kid, and for me. But if I'm not laying the groundwork for my kid, if I can't be less afraid of my kid's feelings

• 52:50Speaker 02

  than he is, then he is not gonna be able to learn how to manage his feelings. Because again, if we think about feelings and skills, kids are born with all the feelings and none of the skills. So, if by the time they're five, they've never had to like, share or wait, waiting. That's the thing with my kids. I'm like, waiting is a thing. It's a thing. We're gonna learn it. We're gonna practice it. Even in 2025, he has to wait for the police car. Well, guess what happens when you wait? You're frustrated, you're maybe focused on the other thing. And if you have all those feelings without any of the experience or skills, the feelings are gonna come out as I need that trunk and I'm gonna whine. Well, if I can't tolerate my kids frustration, how can they learn to tolerate it?

• 53:35Speaker 02

  Because they'll wire their frustration next to my frustration, which it should be obvious to everyone. Then the next time they're frustrated, they're gonna have double the frustration.

• 53:45Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 53:45Speaker 02

  So I have to, and this is called co-regulation. I have to be able to regulate my own feelings in the face of my kids' distress. And they truly do take in kind of that calm. And over time, they learn, oh, I can manage this situation too. Right? And so I think when we're talking about the playground, if that's not happening in the home, you better bet my kids not sharing a red shovel. Right? And so, yes, I think a lot of this really has to do with, as parents, not just overprotection. Because I know John hate, like, it's all about also the way we don't let our kids be independent.

• 54:24Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 54:25Speaker 02

  Right? Yes, I agree with that. But I actually think it starts internally. We kind of are overprotective of their emotional life. We try to always optimize for comfort, for happy, when actually, what's really, really helpful for them is to learn to manage the entire range of uncomfortable emotions.

• 54:44Trevor Noah?

  You know, when you started the answer, I found myself, the first question I had was, what about parents who only have one child?

• 54:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:52Trevor Noah?

  Because you sort of have less exposure, less training. Less experience. Right? You know what I mean? Battlefield experience. Yeah, I was like, oh, no, at least, because now you have like a little Petri dish that you can test all of this with them before you go outside.

• 55:04Speaker 02

  But you can do it with one child.

• 55:06Trevor Noah?

  No, and then, no, by the end of your answer, you know what I found myself thinking? I went, if I'm hearing you correctly, it's almost like you're saying, we forget that the first child our child will meet is us.

• 55:21Trevor Noah?

  Do you know what I mean? Hundred percent. Like, like, as you were saying it, I was going, parents take for granted, like, I know from my life, like, I was the first born. I was a single. You still are? Yeah, I was. And then I was the only child until I was nine years old. But what I took for granted was.

• 55:37Speaker 02

  Two things are true.

• 55:38Trevor Noah?

  At the same time.

• 55:39Speaker 02

  But in Japan. Only one thing is true.

• 55:43Trevor Noah?

  The thing that I took for granted was. The first time I learned play technically was from my mom. The way I learned play was with my mom. The way she responded to me, taking a toy or not taking a toy, was developing how I saw the toys, you get what I'm saying? And so like, when you were saying that, I was going, oh, how much of that should parents be considered of? Because oftentimes, we think of it in a, in a very linear and rigid structure. Parent, child, parent, child. But when Bobby's not there.

• 56:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:15Trevor Noah?

  And you're there with your kid with the police toy that you bought them. You're the first kid that they meet.

• 56:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, you're, you're interacting with them. Sometimes when parents talk and they have an only child, I think one of the things you're also pointing out is siblinghood is inherently full of frustration.

• 56:31Trevor Noah?

  Yes, right.

• 56:31Speaker 02

  And it, sometimes that feels like too much frustration, but sometimes that feels helpful in terms of mimicking what someone will go through in the world. So when you have an only child, it's easy to say, okay, fine, you go first at Candy Land, you pick the game. You don't really care. When you have siblings, they're always arguing, who goes first? Who has that chair, right? So sometimes, and this could also just be when you're one on one with the child who's struggling with their behavior. I think it's important, and I've had these situations where I'm alone with the kid, and I say, I want to go first. Like, almost purposefully, to mimic a situation.

• 57:02Trevor Noah?

  Right, right, right.

• 57:03Speaker 02

  Right? I mean, I'm not gonna do that all the time. But if you have an only child and you notice, it only matters if in the outside world, you're noticing they're having a hard time dealing with sharing, dealing, being in line, because they actually don't have as much experience. You can have situations in your own home that a little bit mimic some of, you know, some of those real life scenarios.

• 57:23Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I, I call it in my life, I call it artificial adversity. That's how I think of it all the time, is I go. Your goal as a person is to try and create as much artificial adversity as you can in your life.

• 57:35Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 57:36Trevor Noah?

  So that you are primed for the adversity that you may encounter. Like going to the gym is artificial adversity. The weight does not need to be lifted, nor does it need to be put down. You're just gonna do this repeatedly. The real reason you're doing this is so that your body is strong enough to handle the weights that life may throw your way. Do you know what I mean? Waiting is adversity, but you can artificially wait for a thing yourself. You can go, you know what? I'm not going to eat the ice cream now.

• 58:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 58:01Trevor Noah?

  I'm going to wait three hours. No one's forcing you to do that.

• 58:05Speaker 04

  How many?

• 58:06Trevor Noah?

  Three.

• 58:07Speaker 04

  For what?

• 58:08Trevor Noah?

  To just like make it happen.

• 58:10Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 58:11Trevor Noah?

  What's the longest you've waited?

• 58:12Speaker 04

  Hey, I don't wait.

• 58:16Speaker 04

  Dr. Becky, I, sorry, I wanted to ask questions that I know that I've been struggling with and I know some people have been struggling with. When you're talking about introducing change.

• 58:25Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 58:26Speaker 04

  Um, in a child's life or in a family or them learning to share does not start at the playground, the sandpit. It starts at home. I've often found that many people struggle to introduce a new family member

• 58:39Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 58:40Speaker 04

  in their lives, in the children's lives or in their family. You have a two-year-old and all of a sudden mommy's pregnant.

• 58:45Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 58:45Speaker 04

  There's someone else who's coming. The dad feels abandoned. The new child can sort of anticipate abandonment by seeing the energy from the other parent. How do people deal with that scenario and how do people make those kind of introductions so that we don't end up fighting for red and blue shovels at five years old?

• 59:02Speaker 02

  So I actually think these things are connected because so often without realizing, our unconscious assumption is that our job as parents is to make or keep our kid happy. And so I'm pregnant, I'm kind of worried, how's my kid gonna adjust? And so I just like don't talk to my kid or I flat out lie about things, right? Kids notice everything. They notice everything. They are actually evolutionarily primed to notice more in their environment than we are because their survival. Depends on it, right?

• 59:32Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 59:32Speaker 02

  And, and depends on noticing things because they're more helpless and it depends on us. And plus, I always think literally for a toddler, their eyesight is at a mom's belly. So they're like, no, I know you're pregnant. Like I look at your belly every day. And I hear people say things like, oh, they're so young or I don't want to make them upset. Or we just say things like, you're gonna love every second. Nobody loves every second. Not a mom, not a dad, not a, definitely not a two-year-old. Like nothing enjoyable for a two-year-old. And so I think there's, and this to me, a new baby or a new family member is very similar with the advice I give around, you know, Aunt Sally has cancer and my kid hears me saying cancer all the time. Or we're moving, right?

• 1:00:14Speaker 02

  Kids actually can handle the truth. They really can. What's more overwhelming them, what's more overwhelming to kids than change is noticing change and not having anyone talk to them honestly about it. That's really scary, just like it is for adults. Like if you're in an office and you hear layoff 20%, and then you go to all hands and someone's kind of ass about it and they're like, everything's good.

• 1:00:40Speaker 04

  But boxes are being packed, computers are being, passwords are being changed.

• 1:00:43Speaker 02

  That's exact, and you're gonna act out and you're gonna act out. So kids act out when their parents are pregnant all the time. And then going back to the other idea we were talking about, you can only learn to manage feelings you think you're allowed to have. Well, if you're always told you're gonna love every second, you're gonna love being a big brother and you're jealous or angry, well, no one told me I'm gonna feel jealous or angry. So what do I do with feelings I'm not supposed to have? I get them out of my body and then one day I steal my baby brother's toy. And everyone's like, why did you do that? And you're like, well, I kinda stole my whole life, you know? This is like a small, literally. So talk to kids, right? Tell them the truth. Doesn't mean you have to say everything, but start.

• 1:01:27Speaker 02

  Their questions will help you guide. So, hey, you might've noticed my belly's getting bigger. Let me tell you what's happening. There's gonna be a new baby in this family. When, I mean, when it starts to snow and it's cold some sense of time, the baby is growing in my. Belly and then it's coming out and it's going to stay. I learned from my kids. You actually have to say that.

• 1:01:50Trevor Noah?

  Oh, yeah, that's a

• 1:01:51Speaker 04

  Wait, what?

• 1:01:51Trevor Noah?

  You forget that part.

• 1:01:52Speaker 04

  You have to tell them.

• 1:01:53Speaker 02

  We had a visitor for a while, okay, in our house. Now, I don't know if it was a question or a wish. Now, one of my kids is like, is the baby going with her? And I was like, oh, no, actually. But she has been here since the baby's been here. So, you know.

• 1:02:09Speaker 05

  Oh, wow, they're gonna stay.

• 1:02:11Speaker 02

  Are they gonna stay? And you can say, and look, we'll talk about a lot of different things. It's okay to have a lot of different feelings at the same time. And to make this concrete for a kid, you might say, a part of you, like, almost this part of you might feel happy and excited. This part of you might feel like mad. This part of you might feel sad. And I remember saying to my kids, honestly, I have all those feelings too. Because me and daddy love our family with just you. And we're sad that it's gonna change. And we're so excited that there's gonna be a new baby and that our family's getting bigger. You know, along these lines, it's so funny. One of my oldest kid, when I had my third, was being really difficult.

• 1:02:54Speaker 02

  When we wanted our first family picture, right? Like, we tried to get a family picture. Maybe my youngest at that point was like, I don't know, eight days old. He refused to come. And this is a kid who, sibling roles again, was like, actually my easier kid, right? And I kind of got curiosity. Okay, I have a good kid. He's having a hard time. What's going on? And I said to him, he was probably almost six at the time, so it was helpful. He could talk. I said, what's going on? You know, something's upsetting. I didn't really know what it was. And he goes, can we first have a picture of the original three?

• 1:03:24Trevor Noah?

  Damn.

• 1:03:26Speaker 04

  Never lied.

• 1:03:26Speaker 02

  The original.

• 1:03:27Trevor Noah?

  The original three.

• 1:03:30Speaker 04

  That's how he's always seen his family.

• 1:03:32Speaker 02

  But I, I, absolutely. And you know what? We did it. And this is where like, it's so important to, you know, that we can be effective or like, be right.

• 1:03:41Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:03:42Speaker 02

  Being right would've been like, well, you've been difficult, so we're not doing that, you know? I was like, okay, let me just like, roll with this. And we did. Um, and then he suggested bringing in his sister for the original four. There was like a sequence. And then. Welcoming in, you know, the baby, he didn't care. He was like seven days old. It's not like he was protesting the order of the pictures. But again, there was, it seems so simple, but there's a reason. There's always some reason. And it doesn't make the behavior okay. But when we understand the reason for behavior, we can intervene in, not only in a way that's more effective, but in a way that feels better for us. Like it was, it's like, oh, I get it. This is a concrete representation of our family. Our family's changing. It was a second boy, which is a little bit more of an injury than a second kid who's a girl.

• 1:04:27Speaker 02

  It was like, okay, well now there's two boys. And if that was the thing he was kind of looking for and his protest was a way of saying that, well, it was being a little bit curious that allowed it to come out and not just continue in the form kind of of a tantrum.

• 1:04:41Trevor Noah?

  It's so fascinating hearing you say this at such a, at such a small level. Because when you expand it, you see this happening in societies, in relationships, in, in, in workplaces and everything. You know, when, when you said that, it, it reminded me of something I think I read in one of Esther Perel's books. She was talking about how infidelity is dealt with in a relationship. And she said, one of the common misconceptions that people have in, in, in and around infidelity is forget it and move on. And they found, like oftentimes in studies, they found that you acknowledging and apologizing for a thing that you've done, even though you do it repeatedly, makes the other person feel like they no longer have to bring it up because you acknowledge that you've done

• 1:05:25Trevor Noah?

  it. And in that moment, I'm hearing an acknowledgement. You, he's going, can you acknowledge?

• 1:05:29Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:05:30Trevor Noah?

  That we used to be three?

• 1:05:31Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:05:31Trevor Noah?

  And you're going, yes, I can acknowledge that. And then he's like, okay, then I'm willing to accept. Can we acknowledge there were four? Yes. Okay, now we acknowledge that there are five. And just that allows him.

• 1:05:42Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:05:43Trevor Noah?

  To sort of create a concrete reality. And you see this even in countries in the world. There are some countries who've acknowledged their pasts, right? Just acknowledged. And then there's some countries that have gone, no, what are you talking about? It's, it's like, no, no, no. You'll be shocked to find that most people in most nations are just saying, can we just acknowledge that this is how it used to be and now it isn't and it's changed? And if you can do that, you find a lot of people go, all right, I'm not saying it will go back, but at least you've acknowledged it.

• 1:06:13Speaker 02

  I, I mean, I think you're getting something like at the core, I think, is humans, whether you're talking about a toddler or someone running a country or group of people, like we're just looking to be believed.

• 1:06:23Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:06:24Speaker 02

  That's all. Having something that feels true to you and not having someone believe you is a horrible human experience and you will fight to the death to be believed. And if you're not believed, you will escalate your expression and get more and more intense in your behavior in an attempt to be believed, which usually makes the other party more pissed off and more defensive. And so then, of course, you have to escalate it further. You see this, right? That the picture is a good example. Oh, I don't want to go to school today. Oh, you're going to school. Oh, I can't. Oh, my knee hurts. Oh, my stomach hurts. It's just, right? And then on the other side is, you know, you're making a big deal out of nothing. You're so dramatic,

• 1:07:07Speaker 02

  right? And so, and this is also true on a politics level, right? I mean, you have to do something in such an extreme way because you're actually just looking for the other side to believe you, which actually is funny. We talked about boundaries, but validation, people totally misunderstand. Validation of someone else's experience is just saying, I believe that's true for you. It's not saying it's true for me. It's not saying, I believe what you're going to do next as a result. It's just saying how you're feeling is true for you. And given the feelings in your body, you're the only one who could know. I actually, that's what confidence is. That's what self-confidence is. And that's, you know, what the confidence we want to give kids is just self-trust. I am the owner of my feelings. I'm the only

• 1:07:51Speaker 02

  one who knows how I feel, right? And so many times, starting when kids are young, kids kind of tell us how they feel. And we say, no, you don't.

• 1:08:00Speaker 06

  Oh, wow.

• 1:08:01Speaker 02

  No, you don't. I know how you should feel. You shouldn't be that upset. You shouldn't be that mad. You should feel happy. It's not such a big situation, which means more behavioral escalation and lower and lower self-confidence.

• 1:08:13Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, that's that's the opposite of curiosity. I'm scared there's something under the bed. You're not scared. You're a big boy.

• 1:08:19Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:08:20Trevor Noah?

  Kids like, okay, I see what you've just said to me, but that hasn't changed.

• 1:08:24Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:08:25Trevor Noah?

  As opposed to, so how how do we deal with inconsistencies then? You know, as I was, as I was reading through your work, I was thinking to myself about any challenge I experienced as a child, and then I tried to think of it empathetically through my, through my mom's lens and the the fights I'll always have with my mom. Now we laugh about them, but it's fun to go. I'll say to her, do you ever acknowledge how inconsistent you were?

• 1:08:45Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:08:45Trevor Noah?

  You know, she'd be like, what do you mean? I'm like, one day this would be the rule.

• 1:08:48Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:08:49Trevor Noah?

  Then you would change the rule. And now, as an adult, I understand that rules are malleable. As an adult, I understand that an ice cream rule on this day after the day we've had is different to an ice cream rule on another day when the day was different.

• 1:09:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:04Trevor Noah?

  But how do you? How do you solve for those inconsistencies as a parent? Because I I'm assuming, I could be wrong. I'm assuming that it's not militaristic. I'm assuming that not everything is everything all the time, all the time. Sometimes you might buy them a second toy.

• 1:09:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:17Trevor Noah?

  And sometimes you won't. Sometimes you won't buy them a toy at all. How do you? How do you create consistency in an inconsistent world as a parent?

• 1:09:24Speaker 02

  First of all, dealing with the inconsistencies, I think almost you just shift the focus. It's not the inconsistencies from our childhood

• 1:09:30Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:31Speaker 02

  that usually bother us. It's actually not having our reality recognized.

• 1:09:35Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:35Speaker 02

  When there was an inconsistency.

• 1:09:37Trevor Noah?

  Oh, I like that.

• 1:09:38Speaker 02

  Like, you're right. We usually go for ice cream on Fridays, and today I'm in a rush and that stinks for you. You're probably at school thinking about ice cream. Does that mean we can go for ice cream? No, sweetie. Like, and this is, I kind of said this to you, like, two things are true. We can't go to ice cream today. And I get that that's really disappointing for you. So I think sometimes we encode from our past, like, oh, yeah, I was so inconsistent. I have to be consistent. No one's perfectly consistent. Real life happens. But when something's different from what we planned or expected, what actually feels bad to us is that nobody believed us and acknowledged that. So I think, and encourage parents, yeah, we can't do anything all the time. But once something is different or kind of inconsistent, and your kid probably will have a feeling about that, just acknowledge, acknowledge, acknowledge that reality.

• 1:10:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, and sometimes I think some of those parenting inconsistencies are caused by situations.

• 1:10:28Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 1:10:28Speaker 04

  Uh, my mom said to us when we were older that all the time that she had said no to us at the store was because she didn't have the money for it. There was no. Better reason, there was no, this thing is not good for you, this is not what people.

• 1:10:41Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:10:41Speaker 04

  She was like, I just didn't want to say to you, there's no money for it. But as we got older, she was able to say, there's no money for it. And then we understood better. And when I was older, I was like, that was very inconsistent of you. One minute it's fine to have Ninja Turtles, the next minute we can't.

• 1:10:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:55Speaker 04

  And she goes, at the time I didn't have.

• 1:10:57Speaker 02

  I think kids, right, no, I don't picture a six year old saying, it's not the inconsistency. It's that you're not validating my feelings. Like, that's a very sophisticated understanding.

• 1:11:06Speaker 04

  You've never met kids in Japan.

• 1:11:07Speaker 02

  Right. I really.

• 1:11:09Speaker 04

  Those kids are, actually, I remember watching them go to school by themselves, on the train by themselves, and I was like, wow. This is a whole different level.

• 1:11:16Speaker 02

  I'm operating in the wrong country. That's the only thing. The only thing I'm taking from this podcast is I have got to go to Japan.

• 1:11:22Speaker 04

  And that's the only true fact about Japan throughout this whole entire podcast.

• 1:11:26Speaker 02

  Seriously. But that usually is the core, because then we focus on the inconsistency. But actually, it's the same thing in a, you know, a partnership. You always alternate whose family you're going to for the holidays.

• 1:11:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:11:39Speaker 02

  Second year in a row, actually, for some reason, you've got to still go to your partners. And all you want to hear from them is not just, it's not just about the inconsistency. It's, yeah, this, this is the year we're supposed to go to your family and it didn't work out. And I hear you, that stinks. And it makes sense you're disappointed. And, right? And I think a phrase I love, it's just, you're right to notice that. I try to say that to my kids as much as possible, you know?

• 1:12:03Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, you're right. I don't text you as much as I did when we first met. You are right. But that's because I know you now and I live with you, Eugene.

• 1:12:13Trevor Noah?

  Did that heal you?

• 1:12:14Speaker 04

  I thought you accepted.

• 1:12:15Trevor Noah?

  Thank you.

• 1:12:15Speaker 02

  I can just, I can just walk away. You guys have some things to figure out.

• 1:12:21Trevor Noah?

  That's, that's, that's a perfect moment to talk about, like, repair.

• 1:12:24Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:12:25Trevor Noah?

  You know, one, one of the things you really, really talk about in, in your work is repair. And I, I can't tell you how much I felt healed and seen by your work. Because I think parents take this, I think people take this for granted. Is the wound being less important than the way we heal the wound?

• 1:12:46Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:12:47Trevor Noah?

  You know, let's talk a little bit about about repair. Like, you know, the anecdote you share is one way. You were screaming at your child. You had lost it, you know, it's like, oh, you know, and and you you go on and you'd said these things. And and then afterwards, you realized you had made a mistake. You'd done something wrong. You then went and you returned and you said, that wasn't fair. I shouldn't have yelled. You're good. I love you. And you you you literally talk about seeing your child's shoulders drop.

• 1:13:15Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:13:16Trevor Noah?

  And their body language change. And I I'd love to know why repair is important and how you would encourage parents to seek some sort of repair with their child and what the ramifications of not doing that would be.

• 1:13:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I I do think this is my favorite topic. And I think it's the ultimate relationship strategy, not just parenting strategy. Like, you want to get close to anyone closer than you are. It's something paradoxical, but repair with them. And it's true, adult too. Call up a friend today. Hey, you know, I'm thinking, I haven't texted you as much recently. And I'm sure that felt bad. And I've been busy and still I just want to let you know, I see that too. I love you. Try to be more in touch, you know, over the next month. So every every single human, definitely parent, does things they're not proud of. It goes back to like, everyone is a good person who's having a hard time. We all have behavior that doesn't represent our values, that's not in line with how we wish we would have behaved.

• 1:14:16Speaker 02

  And I think going back to our childhoods, so many of us encoded struggle and mistake next to shame, blame and fear. That even now with our own kids, we yell and and we freeze and we spiral. And we tell ourselves the story that comes from the collapse of behavior and identity. I'm a monster. I messed up my kid forever. It's too late. If anyone else saw me, they wouldn't even believe that I have a kid or I'm a parent. Right? These awful stories. And so one of the things I remember learning in grad school, I remember hearing this and it just stopped me in my tracks, was that One of the markers of a secure attachment, which is basically the attachment we all want to have with our kids, the kinds that brings confidence and lower rates of mental health struggles,

• 1:15:01Speaker 02

  all the things. But one of the things that differentiated a secure attachment from insecure or disorganized attachment was repair. I remember the professor talking, and I'm like, what? Because it wasn't being perfect. It wasn't getting it right all the time. It's just the fact that after you basically yell at your kid or make a mistake, you went back to your kid and you took ownership of your behavior and you offered reconnection. And so if we think about this in a scenario, which I always like to do because it just makes it more real. So I think what I said in my TED Talk, right? Even though it's one of many examples is it's one of those days. I was at the end of my rope for a million different reasons. My kid whines about dinner. So classic, like, oh, chicken again.

• 1:15:45Speaker 02

  And like, I made dinner and like, how lucky my kid is in this whole story to have homemade dinner. And I yell, right, you're spoiled, you're this and raise my voice. And it wasn't even a decision I made. It just happened, right? Classic situation. Then my son went into his room. I'm alone in the kitchen.

• 1:16:02Speaker 02

  And now that's already happened. So first, every parent does that. There's not one parent who has not been in that situation. If they say they haven't, they're a liar. We don't have to be friends with them. So there's that.

• 1:16:15Speaker 02

  Spit that over here.

• 1:16:17Speaker 02

  Okay, so.

• 1:16:20Speaker 02

  There's that. Okay, so number two. What happens for a kid after a moment like this? Well, our relationship with our kid is very complicated because our kid needs us to survive. Like, I have a very good relationship with my husband, but as an adult, I actually don't need another adult the way a kid needs us, right? So it's a very different relationship of total dependency, right? And so what happens for a kid when the person they depend on for safety becomes the person who scares them? That's a very frenetic experience for a kid. And they get very overwhelmed in their body. Again, happens for every kid. There's no guilt here. It's just something to understand. And then my son, essentially in his room,

• 1:17:03Speaker 02

  has to figure out, how do I get back to feeling safe? I have to, I have to go on with my life. I have to keep going. How do I get back to feeling safe? The best way that that happens is through repair, which I'll get to. But to me, one of the motivators of repair is understanding what a kid does to cope if they don't have repair in that situation.

• 1:17:22Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:23Speaker 02

  Because we so often think it's yelling at our kid that messes them up. I don't like the term messes them up because it just feels so final. But just for colloquial terms, what messes up a kid isn't being yelled at. It's being yelled at and then having a parent not repair. It's not the being yelled at. Because when they don't repair, you can picture my son, he's like, okay, like my mom basically just became scary mom and I'm overwhelmed, but I need my mom. She's my leader, she's my pilot of my plane, essentially. Where'd she go? And so kids basically have two coping mechanisms on their own. Self doubt and self blame. And these will sound familiar as I talk about them because they're the same coping mechanisms we practiced so much as child in our childhood to feel safe and still activate for us in a very unhelpful way in adulthood.

• 1:18:08Speaker 02

  So self doubt, sounds like that probably didn't happen. No, I don't think I can trust myself. That must not have happened. Yep, nope, my mom definitely didn't yell at me. All good. Put on a smile, go out and continue. So where does this have a legacy in adulthood? I think about so many people who say, well, I'm just someone who makes a big deal out of something. Let me call five of my friends. Do you think this is a big deal that this guy didn't text me back? Would you go out with him again? Like you can't trust your own data in your body. And so you have to essentially rely on lots of external sources because you've engaged in so much self doubt. That was actually a very adaptive coping mechanism early on.

• 1:18:52Speaker 02

  Because if your internal scary experiences and overwhelming experiences weren't spoken to as real, then self doubt at least helped you get back to zero and move on. The other is self blame. I did this. If I was only a better kid, if I was only more on top of my game, I wouldn't have gotten yelled at. And there's a Fairburn quote that I always love and, you know, it to me is very poignant. It says, for a kid, it's better to be a sinner in a world ruled by God than to live in a world ruled by the devil.

• 1:19:22Trevor Noah?

  Damn.

• 1:19:23Speaker 02

  Right? So in the binary of good and bad, you'd rather, as a kid, have the bad inside and the good as your parents than to feel like a good kid who has this scary parent who could just scare you at any time. So you take in the bad. Right? Again, works against you in adulthood, which we see in a lot of adults.

• 1:19:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:19:45Speaker 02

  Anything that happens around them, even in, you think about really unhealthy, toxic partnerships, where sometimes the abused partner, so much self-blame.

• 1:19:55Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:19:55Speaker 02

  I did this. I set my partner off. If I had only remembered the toilet paper.

• 1:19:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:19:59Speaker 02

  I wouldn't have gotten screamed at. That's a legacy of self-blame from scary moments that went unrepaired over and over and over, when you had to rely on the only coping mechanism you had.

• 1:20:13Speaker 02

  So, what happens when we repair? When you repair with your kid, always when I think about it, I'm a visual person. It's like you're a magician. Like, you get to go back to this moment that felt bad in your kid's body. You get to kind of snatch out any self-doubt and self-blame.

• 1:20:30Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:20:31Speaker 02

  And instead of that chapter of their life ending with, "And then, nice mommy turned into scary mommy." Period. You have a new ending. Okay, sometimes moments happen with people I love that didn't feel good.

• 1:20:45Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 1:20:46Speaker 02

  And when those moments happen, I can expect that person to come back to me, to take responsibility for what they did.

• 1:20:54Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 1:20:56Speaker 02

  And to reconnect together. So, it usually sounds like, "Sorry I yelled. This line really matters." I think it's never your fault when I yell. I'm working on staying calmer, even when I'm frustrated. I love you. And just to get to the naysayers, like, "But isn't, like, he did complain about dinner? Like, but, like, he didn't put on his shoes, right?" That situation leads to my frustration.

• 1:21:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:21:26Speaker 02

  But my ability to manage my frustration, that predated my child's existence.

• 1:21:32Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 1:21:32Speaker 02

  That's not something, we're actually talking about the difference between a feeling and how that feeling gets managed, or is kind of as dysregulated as probably I still see in my young children.

• 1:21:46Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:21:46Speaker 02

  Right?

• 1:21:47Trevor Noah?

  When when you put it that way, I realized there's such a fine nuance, like most things in therapy or in the way we heal ourselves, there's such a fine nuance in real repair versus the facade of repair. Because what you just said, I think of now as parents or even as partners, where some people, a parent might go to somebody, I'm sorry I yelled. But whenever you do that, you make me so angry. And it means that mommy can't call and daddy, you know, daddy was really, he had a long day. And when you did that. And then it it seems like the repair is less them coming to repair what they've wronged you with. They're basically the cop that's going,

• 1:22:33Trevor Noah?

  I'm sorry, I slammed your head on the hood of the car. But you've got to understand, when you walk like that and when you wear that hoodie, it just makes me feel like you might have committed a crime. And then he's like, oh, it it's not a repair anymore. Now it's it's just a karma way of chastising the child.

• 1:22:50Speaker 02

  You're you're teeing me up. So thank you. Um, that's exactly right. And I think what you're actually talking about from the, let's start with the parents' perspective is a misstep often is actually self repair. Okay, meaning if I don't repair with myself for yelling at my kid, I'm not going to be able to repair with my kid, because even if I go to them, I'm actually basically just asking them to take the blame or I'm asking them to take care of my guilty feelings. Right? Because I think in that situation, we either say, I'm sorry, I yelled. It's okay, right? You still love me, right?

• 1:23:28Speaker 02

  What in the heck just happened? Now, I was overwhelmed because I'm a young kid who got yelled at. And now I have to take care of your adult feelings. And all of that happened because actually, we haven't been taught to take a moment. And this would be something I would have to do before I go to my son's room, probably sit in my bathroom alone, take a deep breath and kind of, again, separate for myself, identity from behavior. I'm a good parent who yelled. I'm a good parent who is having a hard time. That moment didn't define me. I am not my latest behavior. I can move on. And if I can't do that for myself in a way, and I really do feel like when I do this for myself, I have to wait until I feel like something shift in my body.

• 1:24:13Speaker 02

  Something has to release a little bit. Because if not, when I go to my kid, I'm just asking them to forgive me, right? Or I'm saying something like, look, I'm sorry I yelled, but if you wind up, if you didn't whine about dinner, it would have never happened. And that is definitely not a repair.

• 1:24:30Speaker 04

  I think the difference between asking for forgiveness or taking forgiveness. Oh, damn. Yeah, it's a, it's a, I feel like I'm learning so much. I, I, I put it like this, because I know you're a visual person. From what I understand, correct me if I'm wrong, as a parent, you're almost like NATO. There's a few of you. NATO like the, the treaty? Yes. Okay, cool. There's a few NATO nations, there's a few of you with lots of power.

• 1:24:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:54Speaker 04

  Managing states that don't have as much power. You get to decide, you can either be good to them, or you can burn them down. Sometimes as a parent, you get to be like the UN. You say you stand for peace and understanding, but sometimes you step in when your nations have been pulverized and you give aid once in a while. So you say forgive, or it will happen again, or if you don't forgive, well, we'll be here giving you more grain. Sometimes you find yourself in those tricky positions and you want to move on. But sometimes when you have want to repair, this is how I see it in my mind.

• 1:25:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:29Speaker 04

  You're almost like you're the US and this is the Ukraine. There's Zelensky is sitting at the White House and you go, without me? Hmm? Hmm? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, and then he goes, but, but, but. And then you have a chance to repair by calling him back and he reciprocates by wearing a suit. You guys shake hands and you make amends and things. You've asked, you've, you've made, you've made repair.

• 1:25:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:51Speaker 04

  So that's how I look at all those dynamics. I'm like, in the real world, that's how they apply to me. And when you say, basically, adults and world leaders and nation leaders are also just children who have learned tools, or they've not learned the tools to cope with.

• 1:26:04Speaker 02

  That's right. And look, I'm a pragmatist, so in the dinner situation or in the my kid isn't putting on shoes situation, I do think there are ways to tell your parent you don't like dinner without complaining the way my son did. And it is helpful to have a kid who puts on their shoes the first time and not the 22nd time. But, okay, but I always tell parents, just because I like a blanket rule. Right, it's true. Right, 20 seconds.

• 1:26:27Speaker 02

  Come on. I say wait 24 hours. I don't know why. Like a repair is an offering. An offering isn't an offering if you're asking something from someone and it won't and and they won't feel it that way. So I'd say wait 24 hours after I say, I'm sorry. I've been yelling a lot in the mornings. They've been really hectic. I know they haven't felt good. I'm really working on staying calmer. Now, for some parents, it's gonna take every ounce of them not to say, but you have to put on your shoes, wait 24 hours. And then you could say to your kid, not as related to yelling, but just more as teammates. Hey, mornings have been stressful. We have to get our shoes on at a certain time. Do you have any ideas for, you know, how to make that easier? Or hey, do you think if we had a chart? Do you think if we played a song? I know for me, often it relates to this. I

• 1:27:12Speaker 02

  feel like I've been on my phone in the mornings, even though I say it's gonna be in my bathroom. I'm gonna really try to keep it in the bathroom for the 20 minutes we have. I'm gonna be more present. And what I'd ask for you is that, you know, you put your shoes right by the door in the morning and that will make it easier. Usually when you approach kids in that way, you know, versus if you don't put on your shoes, some random threat that I'm not keeping anyway, they're they're more likely to cooperate.

• 1:27:35Speaker 04

  I've also noticed that as my child got older, I it was good for me to ask her for help.

• 1:27:42Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 1:27:44Speaker 04

  Right?

• 1:27:44Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:27:45Speaker 04

  Yeah. So sometimes we confuse asking kids for help with responsibility. Why you know your job is to wash the dishes and that and that and that. But for me, it was, do you know where my charger is? Can you just car keys? Do you know where I put them? And they're like, where without me? And then they get to do their responsibilities quicker because they know that at some point, they're gonna have to perform a duty that only they can perform in my life. And it has nothing to do with them being a good kid or a bad kid.

• 1:28:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, I think this even connects to overprotection and kids like to feel capable. They do. We all like to feel capable. We all like to feel like we have impact in the world, right? And in this world of doing so much for our kids and making their lives so easy and kind of therefore making them more fragile, in the meantime, we also get in their way of feeling capable. So even, yeah, where's my charger? Or do you have any ideas for how we can make the morning smoother? Kids like to share ideas. They don't like being dictated to and bossed around, but they do like sharing ideas if we kind of tee them up for it.

• 1:28:44Trevor Noah?

  We'll be right back after this short break.

• 1:28:49Trevor Noah?

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• 1:32:23Trevor Noah?

  Let me ask you what you would say to parents who are very good at repairing, but not replacing their behavior? Because I think a lot of people can relate to that. They've had parents where the parent would be very good at repairing. I'm sorry I yelled at you.

• 1:32:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:32:35Trevor Noah?

  I'm, I'm working on it. And then they would yell again. And then they would, I'm sorry I yelled at you. And then they would yell again. What would you say to those parents they're creating in their child that they may not realize?

• 1:32:44Speaker 02

  So I think there's probably just a couple of missing ingredients. So I, I think repairs are really helpful first step. And again, repairing is always better than leaving the moment not talked about. Just like it's right. We don't want to do that with being yelled at. We don't want to do that with Aunt Sally who has cancer. It's better to talk about the things that are happening for kids. But I think the next ingredient is something that probably does require a little bit more time and reflection and then resources. Okay, why am I yelling? I'm yelling most days at, I'm making this up, 6pm. What's going on for me then? Okay. I don't feel like I have support. I don't know, my single parent, is my partner not home? Is my partner home and on the couch? And I feel very resentful, but maybe I've never learned

• 1:33:26Speaker 02

  how to speak up for my needs. So I have this whole hint and hope dance. It's like my favorite thing I notice, you know, it'll be, it'll be great if you were home for bath time and you kind of hint and you hope and then your partner doesn't even know what bath time is. And then they come home late and then you yell at them and then you end up apologizing, right? And so what is my pattern? Okay, it's generally at six. I feel overwhelmed. I always think I ask my partner for help, but my partner never gives me the help. Okay, what's going on there, right? Or it's something totally different. I always yell when there's whining. Well, why is that? Nobody likes whining, but I don't know, to me, as an example, whining often represents helplessness. So what's my relationship with helplessness? What did I learn as a child? And now we're talking about our triggers. And to me, this is my

• 1:34:10Speaker 02

  favorite part of Good Inside is all the reparenting stuff, right? All the ways our stuff gets acted out. So repair is a starting point. But then I think when we say to our kid, I'm working on staying calmer, even when I'm frustrated, but we do have to have a little bit of a mirror to ourselves and say, am I? Like, is it just, am I, am I hoping? Or am I, yeah, am I learning something? And I think this is also, when you asked me at the beginning, what Good Inside stands for, I mean, parenting is the hardest job in the world. It is the most important job in the world. It's the one that has the biggest impact on our life and the world.

• 1:34:44Speaker 07

  Right.

• 1:34:45Speaker 02

  And nobody has given us education. I mean, you have a baby and you leave the hospital. I remember for me, and this is so much of the mission of Good Inside, I looked around, like, I thought someone was gonna stop me or like, hand me something helpful and I remember something. And I remember asking the nurse, do I need anything? So well meaning, she was, a car seat. I was like, okay, well, I have a car seat. Car seat's not raising my child unless you have some new fancy AI car seat that always knows what to say, you know? And so I think this whole idea, especially for women of maternal instinct, right? I mean, we don't do that to anyone else. We don't even, we don't do that to CEOs. We don't say

• 1:35:25Speaker 02

  there's a CEO instinct. We love CEOs now, have executive coaches and athletes have trainers and they have sports psychologists. And we look at those people and think, you're doing a great job because you've surrounded yourself by support. I don't know, one investor who'd ever invest in a CEO who says, I just, I just do this naturally. Maybe the quickest way to end a meeting. But if you think about parenting, well, the only thing that comes naturally in parenting is how you were parented. That's all instinct is. Instinct is what you've learned until that point. And so if we don't help parents see education and resources and ongoing support as a positive thing, just like we do in every other job,

• 1:36:08Speaker 02

  then it's a really hard thing for a parent to change cycles. What, what are they doing?

• 1:36:13Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:13Speaker 02

  So I think at Good Inside, that's really what we stand for. There's moments that come naturally. There's a lot of moments that don't. And just like in other areas, when things don't come naturally, you learn and you practice and you get support and education. That's really what I think parents should have access to as well.

• 1:36:27Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I can't help thinking about how this ties into what we've spoken about so many times here is community and how it affects every single aspect of our lives. You know, you think about how finances are affected by your community. You think about how your lessons are. This is a perfect example because as we've become more and more of the nuclear family, as people have become more and more isolated, there are fewer people to lean on. There's fewer like other mothers who are just hanging around you.

• 1:36:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:36:51Trevor Noah?

  Now it's just like a bunch of strangers and you don't know how much you can reveal or not reveal. And it, funny enough, it ties into one of the elements that you, you really, really talk about in your work. And that is shame.

• 1:37:03Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:37:04Trevor Noah?

  Because what you just said, if I hear you correctly, sort of goes to the shame that many people will feel in not feeling like they know how to parent.

• 1:37:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yes.

• 1:37:13Trevor Noah?

  They're ashamed of what they did. I'm ashamed of how I acted towards my kid. I'm ashamed of how they feel about me. I'm ashamed of how they turned out. They, they take drugs. I'm ashamed of this, you know?

• 1:37:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:37:24Trevor Noah?

  And that shame, we can tie back to childhoods.

• 1:37:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:37:27Trevor Noah?

  You really, really, really hone in on shame and, and you try to illuminate the reader's mind

• 1:37:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:37:35Trevor Noah?

  as to why that is one of the things we should fight the most against. Talk us through why, like, what is shame doing in a child's mind that we, we definitely want to prevent from getting into a society?

• 1:37:49Speaker 02

  So children are driven by attachment. That is the primary evolutionary impact on a child, meaning that yes, we need food, shelter, water. But the only way kids get food, shelter, water is through attachment with parents. Right? They can't get it on their own. They can't survive on their own. Right? And so they have to figure out how to stay close to a parent. And so we think about attachment as a relationship, which is it is. But attachment is actually, it's a system of proximity. It's actually a system of proximity. Because if you think about attachment way, way, way, way back in the day. If you think about a lot of kids who are helpless and there was some animal in the forest. Okay. Which kids were to survive? The ones that were closest to their parent.

• 1:38:34Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:38:35Speaker 02

  Pick up my kid, right? And help them survive. And so kids are always paying attention to what keeps them close to a parent. And what kind of leads to distance? And the way we think about this now in 2025 certainly isn't just about an animal in the forest. But what feelings, what parts of me? Do I get the message? This is allowed. I can stay with you. I still like you when you're feeling this way.

• 1:39:04Speaker 06

  Hmm.

• 1:39:04Speaker 02

  And what feelings and experiences do I get the message through being hit? Through harsh punishment, through the silent treatment to just go to your room. Right? Um, and never talking about something again. Essentially, the survival related, the evolutionary related message to a kid's body is that feeling, that part of you is dangerous. It's actually dangerous. Okay. So how does this relate to shame? Shame is actually, it starts as a very protective feeling. Because shame is fear of disconnection. If somebody saw this part of me, I would be unknowable, unlovable, unattachable.

• 1:39:43Speaker 06

  Hmm.

• 1:39:44Speaker 02

  And so if you think about shame in a child, how adaptive? For a kid, let's say who learns. You know, whenever I get really mad. Now, I get mad and I don't have skills. So it's unfortunately coming out as hit or I hate you.

• 1:39:59Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:39:59Speaker 02

  But that leads to bad things in my family. Okay. Like I get punished or sent away or, you know, left on the street corner, whatever it is. My body will feel shame when I have anger in an attempt. To not allow, yes, to not allow the feeling. Now, fast forward many years, shame ironically tends to then make a lot of those feelings more explosive. Right? That's what shame really does. There's nothing in adulthood that makes you either as shut down or as triggered and explosive as shame. Because it's kind of your body's way of remembering this is danger. This is 10 out of 10 threat state. You go into fight or flight.

• 1:40:42Speaker 02

  Because you're no longer facing, you know, a bear in the woods that would endanger you. You're facing an intense feeling in your body that you learned was kind of met with aloneness.

• 1:40:53Speaker 04

  Wow. Without an external visible threat to everybody.

• 1:40:56Speaker 02

  That's exact-

• 1:40:57Speaker 04

  Then people think you're overreacting. Yeah. It's like, I, I, I feel it. It's, yeah.

• 1:41:01Speaker 02

  That's exactly right. The threat now is like inside your own body, which, which is terrifying. You, you literally can't run away from something inside your body, right? And so shame, when you start to, it's interesting, you can start to see it in kids and some kids, I, I call them deeply feeling kids. I find to be especially shame prone.

• 1:41:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:41:20Speaker 02

  They really are. They have big feelings. They have such a fear that their big feelings will also overwhelm others. And so they are so, they're so desperately in need of a parent because of their big feelings. But they're also so fearful that they're going to overwhelm a parent. So that shame is so present. Which is why you'll see these truly animalistic meltdowns. These kids will scratch, they will growl, they will hiss during meltdowns. So common. I know there are listeners thinking they're the only ones. They are not.

• 1:41:54Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 1:41:54Speaker 02

  These are the kids who, when they trip in front of their friends, they blame other people. They blame their parents, any adult either, also who blames people.

• 1:42:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:42:07Speaker 02

  For things that those people clearly didn't do, that's a sign of shame. They're kind of saying this feeling I'm feeling can't be mine. And so you had to have done it to me. Because it's so overwhelming and so scary in my own body. That like I can't kind of accept its reality.

• 1:42:25Trevor Noah?

  It almost sounds like a manifestation of isolation.

• 1:42:28Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:42:29Trevor Noah?

  You know?

• 1:42:29Speaker 02

  That's what it is. Aloneness is the enemy. Right? It's not so much a feeling, it's feeling plus aloneness that overwhelms us going back to childhood. Because we couldn't survive alone.

• 1:42:40Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:41Speaker 02

  And so aloneness, yes, or the fear of aloneness is what evokes shame.

• 1:42:45Speaker 04

  I find that what helped with me in the early stages of being alone with my daughter was reassurance. It was always important for me to tell her I'm not going anywhere.

• 1:42:53Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:42:54Speaker 04

  And when she was young, I would tell her when I'm coming back, if I'm going somewhere. Then I'd find that she would be more relaxed and more independent.

• 1:43:01Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:43:02Speaker 04

  It it helped so much. It opened her up. Yeah. And other people would be like, but aren't you scared? She'd be like, no, he told me.

• 1:43:08Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:43:08Speaker 04

  He is definitely coming back.

• 1:43:09Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:43:10Speaker 04

  Because that abandonment is a huge thing. And without it being acknowledged and the reassurance and you must never get tired to reassure.

• 1:43:17Trevor Noah?

  But then you had to come back.

• 1:43:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:43:19Trevor Noah?

  No, but that's what I mean is like, I think, I think that's where some people don't realize. The only thing worse than not reassuring is false reassurance.

• 1:43:27Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:43:28Trevor Noah?

  I'll be back. And then they don't come back. Then you're like, well, I guess I don't trust the world.

• 1:43:33Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:43:34Speaker 02

  That's right. I literally don't trust the world because you coming back is my world as a kid. And it's why the kids have such visceral memories of being the last kid picked up at school. Because it's such a true existential threat. It it really is.

• 1:43:50Trevor Noah?

  You know what was funny for me was when I wasn't picked up from school. My shame wasn't that I wasn't picked up, funny enough. I felt ashamed about how the people perceived my parents. But then I still carried that shame. It's amazing how shame.

• 1:44:05Speaker 02

  That you remember that?

• 1:44:06Trevor Noah?

  No, this was when I was, I don't know, ten, twelve, somewhere there. But but it's an interesting one where it's like, you know, that's how powerful shame can be.

• 1:44:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:44:14Trevor Noah?

  Sometimes shame isn't only about yourself directly. You can carry the shame on behalf of the parents. Yeah, because I went, oh, I I don't want, I don't want to them to think that my mom doesn't care about me because, you know what I mean? Between me and my mom, it was just like, all right, my mom didn't come. Genuinely, between me and my mom.

• 1:44:34Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:44:34Trevor Noah?

  But then the shame actually came from the other thing. It was them going, did your mom leave you? Did your mom forget you? And you're like, no, no, no, no, no. No, that, that would never, no, that, you know what I mean? And it's interesting how kids can even hold that level of shame on your behalf.

• 1:44:48Speaker 02

  It's like a different level of aloneness. Cause you're saying, I don't wanna be seen as the only one.

• 1:44:53Trevor Noah?

  Exactly.

• 1:44:54Speaker 02

  Who had a parent when all these other, I don't know what it was, hyper-present parents.

• 1:45:00Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:45:00Speaker 02

  Oh, is your mom not here? And then again, it's a form of aloneness.

• 1:45:03Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:45:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:04Trevor Noah?

  Just that community, just that, i- i- it, it, it branches into um, the world of lying that you were talking about. And that's, that's something I think a lot of parents would, would love clarity on. How do you deal with lying? Because you know, there's, there's like a wide gamut. There's, there's some parents who just go like, you lied to me? And it is the end of our journey as parents and children. You know, there's like that element. I've seen some parents who are like, don't you ever lie to me? You lied to me and now ju- and then I've seen some parents who go like, oh, you lied to me? Well, I uh, good luck. Yeah, and they almost, they retreat in a different way.

• 1:45:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:41Trevor Noah?

  You know, and then there's, then there's parents who go like, you are a liar.

• 1:45:44Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:45:45Trevor Noah?

  You don't have a true bone in your body, you lying liar of liars.

• 1:45:48Speaker 04

  As you can see, Trevor was raised by New York City detectives.

• 1:45:54Trevor Noah?

  No, but I, I, you know why I love, I love, I love observing this? Because I, I, I, I, I often observe how the child is responding to these things. You know, so one of, one of my best friends, I remember saying this to her. Cause she was saying like, her child never lied to her, then like one day did. And she was like, I can't believe you lied to me, it was this whole thing. And I, I said something to her based on my experience as a child. I said, I'm, look, I'm not a therapist, I have no professional expertise. But I said, as a, as a child, as a professional child, I lived my whole young life as a child.

• 1:46:25Speaker 04

  Professional.

• 1:46:25Trevor Noah?

  As a child. I have many years of being a child. I said, do yourself a favor, next time, you're gonna ask your kid something that they're gonna get into trouble for.

• 1:46:35Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:46:36Trevor Noah?

  Said, give them time to answer you. So I said, ask her, go like, hey, did you eat the thing that I said you weren't supposed to eat? Don't answer me now. Go away.

• 1:46:46Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:46:46Trevor Noah?

  And think about your answer.

• 1:46:49Speaker 05

  But come back when you're ready to answer me. And she was like, why? And I said to her, because I know for me as Trevor, sometimes the answer I was giving was just the answer in the moment because I was just like,

• 1:46:57Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 1:46:57Speaker 05

  This is the right answer.

• 1:46:59Speaker 02

  You're scared.

• 1:46:59Speaker 05

  No. And it's like, no. And I'm like, oh geez. Now I don't want to be a liar, so I can't go back. Now I've got to lie more to get out of the lie. So let's talk a little bit about lying.

• 1:47:08Speaker 02

  I love this topic. And I actually just put up something on Instagram, which I mean, like, why I want my kid to lie to me when they're young. Right? I think so many.

• 1:47:15Speaker 05

  You want your kid to lie to you?

• 1:47:16Speaker 02

  Definitely, when they're young. I want to figure this out with them when they're seven and eight, not when they're, I don't know, sixteen, seventeen and eighteen. The stakes are a lot higher, right? And so a couple of things. All the examples of the responses, all of them were different versions of collapse of curiosity. Right? It's just really interesting that what the hardest thing to do is, is to say, why? Sometimes we say, why is an accusation? Why would you lie to me? That's not a question. It's just an accusation with a question mark. But why, truly?

• 1:47:46Speaker 05

  Inquisitive versus accusatory.

• 1:47:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. Why would a kid lie? And I actually find for parenting, some of my best ways of understanding my kid before talking to them is just to ask myself that question. Well, why would I lie to someone I love and respect? Because parents often think it's because they don't respect me. It's like the most selfish interpretation. Like, I don't know. If my husband said, did you pick up my prescription for me? And I forgot? The idea that I would lie because I don't respect my husband is so absurd.

• 1:48:16Speaker 05

  Look at this loser.

• 1:48:17Speaker 02

  Like, dude.

• 1:48:18Speaker 05

  Look at this loser. What a dumbass. What a dumbass. I'm gonna lie to him, this dumbass. I love your plausible deniability character that you put on it. I wouldn't. Then you come back. And I was saying to him. Did you get my prescription? Man, watch what I'm gonna do to this dumbass. Ah, the pharmacy was closed, you stupid ass, dookie dumbass.

• 1:48:46Speaker 02

  I love your alter ego, it's so cool. It's really a good one. I want to hang out with her for an hour. I think I want you dead, why don't you pick up your prescription?

• 1:48:55Speaker 04

  Oh man.

• 1:48:56Speaker 02

  But, but how many times do you hear parents interpret their kids' bad behavior through the lens of disrespect? It's actually, it's absurd, it's never true, right?

• 1:49:04Trevor Noah?

  I wonder how much of that comes from like colonialism and empirical struc- like, not like, not like black, white, anything, I'm just saying. Structures where they were told, like the king wanted respect, and then we all as the people and the peasants throughout time have gone, "The respect is the thing that we all want."

• 1:49:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, but I think it's contempt, right? It's people going, "Who do you think I am to do that to me?"

• 1:49:25Speaker 02

  Well, I, I, yeah, I think it is just passed on, that's what we were told, we reacted out. You know, these are not our words originally, no babies like, "I think I'm lied to." There she is, there she is. There she is, I found her again.

• 1:49:37Speaker 02

  My alter ego. Okay, so why do kids lie? Why would I lie to my husband in that situation? Well, most of all, I would lie ironically because I felt bad and I don't even want to face the reality myself. That's why most of us lie. We don't want to see the truth of the thing we did because then we'd have to feel all the feelings again and we don't really want to do that, right? So, number one, kids lie because they don't want to face the truth and all the messy feelings around it. Number two, and this is really important, especially for young kids, for young kids, the line between wish and reality is much murkier than it is for adults. Right? Like, oh, I hear my kids, right? I hear my kids say, "I went to Disneyland, I went to Disneyland."

• 1:50:22Speaker 02

  And you're like, "My kids are lying, they've never..."

• 1:50:27Speaker 02

  I love it. I can't even lie to a couple of dentists anymore. I never went to Disneyland. What? That's so funny.

• 1:50:33Trevor Noah?

  I'm gonna use my inside voice, then, why? You can pull the character again.

• 1:50:37Speaker 02

  I don't know if I got, I don't know if it's safe anymore. You're safe, I'm reassuring you. But my kid is talking to friends and wishes they went to Disneyland. Of course they do because they wish they still had a grandma who is alive and that wish is something they're playing out or all their friends went to Disneyland and it's not, it's not to say it's not a lie. It almost doesn't matter.

• 1:50:59Trevor Noah?

  It's imagination.

• 1:51:01Speaker 02

  It's a wish. Mine is so fuzzy. Yeah. And so, and then the other thing that's really important, going back to attachment. Attachment drives kids, primary evolutionary force. So if I'm looking at my dad or my mom and they're like, did you take money from my drawer? And they have like a Nest cam that like shows them that this happened. So it's another thing I say to parents is beyond give them time. Never ask a kid or an adult a question you know the answer to. If you want to know what's disrespectful, why would you want to catch your kid being bad? It's just such a bad setup, right? It's a bad setup. But let's say I didn't have a Nest cam and I, I thought my kid, right?

• 1:51:44Speaker 02

  Because if I did, I should just say, I saw you take money from my drawer. Let's talk about it. But let's say I didn't. I'm back to attachment. Kids are wired to try to preserve attachment with us. And so if in a moment, they know intuitively, if I tell the truth, my attachment even temporarily is going to be threatened, they will lie to you every time, ironically, to preserve the attachment for as long as possible. You can't beat evolution. So they are going to say, no. And you're saying, well, I have a video. It, it wasn't me. And then it's like disrespect and do they think I'm stupid? It's, it's actually, it hits me in the

• 1:52:26Speaker 02

  heart every time. Like they're actually trying to stay close to you, right? Which makes you think, well, what do we do when a kid lies to us, right? We have to first manage our emotions. But to me, the question, even though it's a harder question, is well, what's getting in my, what's getting in my kid's way of telling me the truth? What are they so scared of? What have they already learned? Maybe it's how narrow of a version does my kid think they have to be, right? Oh, I have one kid, maybe it's not your brother, who's the smart kid, who's the A plus student. Oh, I don't have to worry about you. You're the valedictorian and I just failed my math. Well, you better bet I'm gonna, I'm gonna lie to my parents to try to preserve this very narrow identity of who I have to be.

• 1:53:08Speaker 02

  Or if I think telling my parents about taking money from their drawer is going to lead to a four-week punishment. Yeah, I'm gonna be too scared, right? And so I think those are the reasons why kids lie. We can get more into, you know, what is the line between, or what is between punishing and permissiveness when kids do lie? But I think the understanding of lying gets us, you know.

• 1:53:31Speaker 04

  You know what I'm realizing now is I think for the most part, as parents, we've got it all wrong. The, the, the children are doing most of the emotional lifting of keeping us physically close together. They depend on it. Evolution-wise, they need you to understand even that lie is an attempt to keep you here.

• 1:53:55Speaker 02

  Yes, I think that's so beautiful. Yes, they, they have to keep you close. They have to keep us close. They are trying by any means. That's why they cling to you at night, even though you're like, I have to go to sleep, because they're scared. They separate from you for 12 hours at night, longer than they do when they go to school with the lights on with friends and teachers, right? So they're always oriented, right, by attachment. And so my kids now are eight, 10, and 13, right? And so why, why are those good ages kind of to go through lying? Which first of all, it's obviously already happened, but I'll tell you the story. So my youngest is my least people-pleasing child. Good for him later in life, challenging early on.

• 1:54:39Speaker 02

  And so a couple of years ago, we were doing a puzzle on a weekend, and he's a kid who likes to feel very capable. And so he was trying to help us with the puzzle. He was probably like four or five at the time, and it was just, it was very hard, right? And he was kind of playing it a little bit independently when we were working on it for a bit. We all had lunch. I come back. Like a quarter of the puzzle is destroyed and the pieces are gone. There was nobody else in our apartment. Okay. And I, I knew it was him. I didn't have a video, but I just knew it. And I know him well enough. He probably went, he saw it. It brought up all of these, oh, I'm not as much part of the family. I'm not capable. I hate this. Well, what can I do? I can kind of temporarily get rid of my feelings by just destroying the situation.

• 1:55:20Speaker 02

  That's delivering them. Okay. So I asked him, right? Cause I really didn't know, hey, is there anybody you know where those puzzle pieces are? Nope. Nope. I have no idea. I knew it, right? But I, I couldn't prove it. I didn't do anything. I didn't do anything. And it's funny because my husband, and I know he'd be okay with me saying this, definitely grew up in a different way than I did. And he's like, what punish, what, what? How are we punishing him? What's the punishment? How severe? He can't do this, right? So disrespectful. This is such a normal reaction. And I just kind of knew, just let's wait. Okay. So put him to bed that night. I said, I want to tell you something. I don't think I've ever told you this before.

• 1:56:01Speaker 02

  When I was seven, my sister had some stickers. She had some stickers and I really, really wanted them. And my mom wouldn't get me my own and I wanted them. And you know what I did? He's like, you probably asked for them nicely or something like that. And I said, no.

• 1:56:25Speaker 02

  I took them. And not only did I take them, I hid them. I took them and I hid them. And the next day, my mom said to me, Becky, did you take your sister's stickers? I said, do you know what I told her? And he goes, I don't know. I said, I said, nope, nope. Didn't take them.

• 1:56:50Speaker 02

  And then I just kind of voiced over, I really wanted them. I kind of wanted to be a part of it. And then I just took them and then I actually felt so bad. And so she asked me, but I felt too bad to tell her the truth. And then I felt like I couldn't tell her the truth because I didn't tell her the truth. And it was just so, so bad. And.

• 1:57:11Speaker 02

  Anyway, what book do you want to read? And I just moved on. Again, I didn't ruin the moment.

• 1:57:19Speaker 02

  I told my husband this and I just like, I can't explain it. I felt in the moment like there was something happening, but he didn't give me any real sign. And I was like, just we're not going to punishment mode yet. Let's just wait. I swear my life, a couple of days later, he just brings me a bag of puzzle pieces.

• 1:57:39Speaker 02

  He's brought them to me. Crying.

• 1:57:45Speaker 02

  And I don't think a punishment was needed. We ended up talking about what it's like to be the third kid in the family, seeing something that you want to be part of and that you can't be part of. How most people, when they see that, have lots of thoughts that aren't so nice. And actually having those thoughts and what you want to do is kind of called urges. And we all have urges and urges aren't problems, but we can learn to kind of talk to urges. And frankly, there's going to be a lot of times, being the youngest in the family, that he was going to want to do things with us that he couldn't do. And we were going to figure out those things together. And so I'm not trying to say I hear myself saying, this is not, there's definitely times I'm like, you lied to me, you know, that that happens too.

• 1:58:29Speaker 02

  But our kids are, they're, they're good inside. They're good kids who are having a hard time. And we've had such a long legacy of seeing their struggles as a sign of who they are. Instead of a sign of what they might need, that it feels so counter-cultural. And then we have words, so permissive, so soft. It's actually a much more resilient, gritty way of interacting with a kid because you can actually teach them and help them better understand the very situations that are happening when they're young so that they actually don't engage in that exact same behavior when they're older.

• 1:59:13Trevor Noah?

  When, when you tell that story, I can't help think back to how many moments I felt relief and connection when I discovered that my parents was as imperfect as I was in that moment.

• 1:59:27Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:59:27Trevor Noah?

  And going back to lying, going back to shame, going back to discipline, all of these ideas.

• 1:59:34Trevor Noah?

  It feels like there's there's an undercurrent and there's a thread here where one of the main things you're advocating for in being a good parent is making sure that your child doesn't feel like they are alone in their existence. I mean, you even do this for parents. You're saying, hey, you might be listening. You might have a kid like this. In those moments, you then feel less ashamed, less alone, less out of control. Because you are now part of something. And so I think parents make that mistake oftentimes. They'll they will tell their kids who they wish their kids to be because of who they wish they were or who they wish they are. But they will oftentimes neglect to tell their child how much they say this share the similarity of being imperfect.

• 2:00:18Trevor Noah?

  And they don't understand what that does to them. You know what I mean? It just it just opens your world up. I remember when I was young, my um my my mom was she was like really angry with me one day because my report card came. And I'd done terribly in math. I'd failed, failed in math. She was so angry. I was with my grandmother this day. And my mom's busy and she's like angry. She's like, you know, this child, he didn't study, he didn't do this. And then my grand was like, she's like, ah, what what happened? What happened? She's like, oh, he failed his math. And and then and then my grand said, she's like, oh, like mother, like son. And then my mom was like, what? Which mother? What are you talking about? And then my grand said, she's like, oh, you did terribly in you were always failing subjects in school. Then my mom was like, me? I was like, I'm an A student.

• 2:01:02Trevor Noah?

  And yes, later on, in tertiary education and courses, she's, I mean, you can't be. But in that, and she had completely, and no joke, she had forgotten that. And she's like, what are you talking? And my grand then turned to me, she's like, your mother, ha, ha, ha, ha, never wanted to do homework, always failing her math. And I remember like turning, looking at my mom and I was just like, I was like, yeah, I literally, I was like, well, well, well. Well, and but you know what was wonderful? Look, my mom, to her credit, in that moment, she laughed. She didn't know.

• 2:01:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:01:34Trevor Noah?

  But what what connected us there and and for forevermore, by the way.

• 2:01:38Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:01:38Trevor Noah?

  She never judged me in the same way. She'd ask me like, what can you improve?

• 2:01:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:01:42Trevor Noah?

  But I realized how it made me feel. I used to be ashamed of failing. And now I wore it as like a badge of honor. And I know it sounds crazy. But like people were like, ah, your math mark. I'd be like, yeah, my family, we're not so good at math.

• 2:01:53Speaker 02

  Not good at the math.

• 2:01:54Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, we're like, we don't know how to count. Me and my mom, you know, we just do the thing. And then I would even try, like, when I'd come home, I'd even go, hey, look, I got better than you've ever gotten. I got now it like motivates me. And I think in your story, what's beautiful there is like, he beat you in that story. He got to do the thing that you never did.

• 2:02:12Speaker 02

  That's that's and what you said, I used to be ashamed. That's what it alone. That's what it meant.

• 2:02:18Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:18Speaker 02

  I used to feel like I was the only one, feeling like the only one who is shame. And and I think from an animal defense response perspective, we know what we talk a lot about. Fight or flight, right? Fight or flight. But those are the animal defenses that make us activate, right? Freeze, submit and play dead are also three animal defense states. And shame brings a freeze state. You can't change if you're frozen. It's literally the opposite. And so as long as you feel like the only one, you are frozen. You could only, if you wanted to, get help in math or work on math if you feel like you're not the only one who.

• 2:02:57Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 2:02:57Speaker 02

  Right? And so telling your kids stories, and I I I saw dad on my last book tour. And he said, you know, I heard you in my head this morning. My son would not put on his shoes. Classic to go to school. And I tried all the things, right? And he said, and I heard my own dad in my head, yelling, the threatening. And he's like, I even said to my son, I'm gonna get fired from my job. It wasn't true. And we're like, never gonna go on vacation, right? You're just you're and then he's like, I heard your voice. And this is, I took a deep breath. And this is what I said to my son. You know, when I was your age, there were mornings I didn't want to go to school.

• 2:03:33Speaker 02

  And he said, I kid you not, my son just looked at me because now there's a connection. He said, there were. And he just wanted to hear more. And as I kept telling him more of the story, which obviously mirrored his struggle.

• 2:03:46Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:03:47Speaker 02

  He was fine with me putting on his shoes. We got the shoes on. I kept telling the story all the way until the drive to school. Right. It's like our kids are almost screaming in their behavior. Just tell me I'm not the only one. And once that happens, it might not get you a hundred percent of the way, but it's like the door that has to open for the room of all the other good things.

• 2:04:09Speaker 04

  And I guess from what you say, I'm kind of picking up that sometimes all the skills that we lack and all the tools that we don't have will manifest themselves in different ways in our parenting. For example, guilt and overcompensating. If you don't want to apologize, you'll overcompensate as a way of showing how sorry you are, but you're actually making the situation worse because you're not imparting tools to your child that they can later, as emotions use to deal with situations.

• 2:04:35Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 2:04:36Trevor Noah?

  You know, when we, when we talk about this, there's some core tenets I'm realizing in, in good insight and what you're, what you're getting to. One is community, you know, and we take for granted that community literally starts at home.

• 2:04:48Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:04:48Trevor Noah?

  If a child feels like they are part of a family and that family will always be a part of them. It means they get to interact with themselves and the world differently because they feel like there's always home base.

• 2:04:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:05:00Trevor Noah?

  You know, they, they're not worried that it can go away. It's always there regardless of their action because who they are is always accepted. And the other one I keep, keep hearing you talk about is like truth. And truth, not in the way that we think about it, but in the way that it's actually expressed. When a parent tells a child that they too lied and they too stole and they too made a mistake and they too failed. You're telling the truth of who you are. And then the child then gets to process you because there's nothing more isolating than feeling like you're the only failure in your family. The only person who's ever stolen, the only person who's ever lied, but the truth literally sets you free. And, and I, I, I wonder if you, if you like, teach parents that or how you teach them

• 2:05:46Trevor Noah?

  to express the truths that are not readily apparent. And what I mean by that is. An example I I can think of is parents who'll say, hey Eugene, did you, did you steal mommy's favorite thing Eugene, did you, did you take daddy's uh tool? You can tell me, you won't get in trouble. Then Eugene's like, okay, I took it. Then they're like, trouble, you piece of shit. You ready for trouble now? And I go, that's a lie. And I think a lot of parents don't realize this. And I think even in relationships, as people go on, they don't realize this. I've seen this in like, literally in relationship therapy as well, like couples.

• 2:06:23Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:06:24Trevor Noah?

  People go like, they lied. And then another person's like, oh, no, no, but you don't understand that you're also telling a lie.

• 2:06:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:06:29Trevor Noah?

  Cause you've said to your kid, tell me this and we're good.

• 2:06:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:06:34Trevor Noah?

  They tell you and then they're not good.

• 2:06:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:06:36Trevor Noah?

  So how do you, how do you, what are the tools that parents can use? To be more truthful in the way that they both respond or interact with their kids in all of these situations?

• 2:06:47Speaker 02

  Well, I think probably the first kind of tool, even though I love a good strategy or script, our best tools for anything in life is our mindset. Right? Cause the mindset is how you're thinking about something, or in a way, it's the glasses you wear.

• 2:06:59Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:00Speaker 02

  The glasses you wear to see a situation has more impact than anything you're gonna do or say. Because as long as I'm thinking about a situation in one way, I can't use a certain strategy or a script because I'm locked into that first interpretation.

• 2:07:12Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:13Speaker 02

  So to me, the first mindset kind of difference to notice is whether I'm in a least generous interpretation mindset or a most generous interpretation mindset. And we all, me too, we have LGI, I call it, that comes naturally. My kid hits and immediately, right? I'm like, oh, my kid's a sociopath, they're never gonna have friends, they're gonna be in jail. They're three meanwhile, right? Least generous interpretation.

• 2:07:35Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:36Speaker 02

  Versus most generous interpretation. Okay, I have a good kid who is overwhelmed. I have a good kid who doesn't have the skills to manage anger. So I think that's one. And the other mindset that I work with parents on all the time is trying to check in and noticing whether you're looking at your kid as a teammate or the enemy.

• 2:07:55Trevor Noah?

  Hmm.

• 2:07:56Speaker 02

  Least generous interpretation always casts our kid as the enemy. Right. But when you start to see your kid as a teammate, kind of like a good coach. Right. If you're a coach and you have a player who's missing layups in every game, even though in theory they know how to make layups.

• 2:08:10Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:10Speaker 02

  It's the same thing. No coach these days, can you imagine a youth basketball coach being, what's wrong with you? Go to your room until you can make a layup. And the parents are like, I love that coach. That coach doesn't take bullshit from anyone. You know, you're like, what? Like, what are they doing in their room? You want a coach who maybe pulls the kid out of a game. Maybe they're not playing well. That's kind of the boundary. And then says, let's get into the gym early tomorrow. And you know what a good coach would probably say? I had a big championship game when I missed a lot of layups too. I mean, that's, and we're going to work on it. And I believe in you and we're going to figure this out together. And what's so interesting to me about that is I don't know one parent who would say, that coach is so permissive.

• 2:08:50Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:51Speaker 02

  That coach is so soft.

• 2:08:52Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:53Speaker 02

  Extra time with that kid. It's basically reinforcing bad behavior. I mean, it's so laughable how we've revolutionized, how we think about being the CEO of a company or a professional sports coach. And how still parents who see bad behavior as a sign kids need a certain type of extra help. That seems as soft and permissive. And I think when you have a sense of boundaries and being on the same team and teaching kids skills. Leading with the truth becomes easier because you're in a mindset where you actually have a system that actually kind of holds together.

• 2:09:30Trevor Noah?

  I love that you you bring that up because that idea, I think, can be mirrored directly in society. And how we think of punishing people or how we think of justice.

• 2:09:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. Hmm. Yes.

• 2:09:43Trevor Noah?

  It's it's really fascinating how many people will say on like a societal level. We need, we need to reform our prisons. We need to reform. We need to give people chances. We need to like make them better. But then in their homes, they treat their kids like criminals.

• 2:09:56Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:09:57Trevor Noah?

  Do you know what I mean? Like their kid has a criminal record. Something's missing. I know who always steals in this house. Then you're like, wait, your kid's got a criminal record in their own house. What are you, what are you doing? Do you know what I mean?

• 2:10:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:10:06Trevor Noah?

  And it's so interesting that this is where it all begins is if we as a society can begin from a place where we go. You have chances, we're going to give you options, we're going to show you that, you know, like a judge can just say, hey, I actually shoplifted once, I never went to jail. I'm gonna give you a chance and prove me wrong, prove me wrong. You know how many times I've seen that story go on to be a person who becomes extremely successful? All they got was a chance. Give them a shot. If I give you a criminal record and if I give you a chance, you're the same person. The difference is, one of you gets the opportunity to become the person that I think you could be. And, and, you know, as, as, as we sort of wrap up and I, I think about all of the lessons that you've, that you've taught us here.

• 2:10:47Trevor Noah?

  I wanna know why you, why you've honed in on, on the parent and their goodness as well. Because this is, this is such a beautiful element that I didn't see coming, honestly. And yet it became the most important in, in all of the work we get into. You talk about generous, less generous and more generous. It, um, it sparked a, a memory of probably my favorite philosopher, Elaine, Elaine de Botten. Who said, um, he said in his opinion, love. You know, when people go, what is love? He says, love is processing somebody through the most generous lens possible. That's all it is, processing through the most generous lens possible. And then I found myself thinking while reading your book and thinking about parenting.

• 2:11:29Trevor Noah?

  Why is it that people will often be the most generous with a pet?

• 2:11:35Trevor Noah?

  It doesn't matter what a pet does, they'll go, they chewed my shoes. Ah, it's because I left them at home for too long, you know? Oh, they, they peed on, on the carpet. Ah, it's because I, I, I made them nervous and there were fireworks and. You'll see people, they go like, oh, but they're a rescue. You must understand all the things, the reason they bit you is not because of them. It's because of how you move towards them. And this is a beautiful generous way to see them. Yes. But then with their kid, you'll go, why did your kid do that? Ah, good question, little piece of shit. I don't know why they do anything. And you do something that's so beautiful at the end of the book and in your work. You flip the lens on the parent and you go, I need you to remember that you are good inside. Why is that so important?

• 2:12:20Trevor Noah?

  And what are you trying to teach parents of children who are trying to see the good in their kids?

• 2:12:26Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, that's, I think that's why I find parenting to be such a compelling topic is because at once we're talking about a kid and a parent. You can't help your kid if you're not doing some type of internal work. And anything that's new feels really uncomfortable. That's our body's way of saying, this is new. I don't really have a circuit for this. It's kind of like skiing down a ski slope that's never had a track, right? That would feel really awkward and uncomfortable. And for most of us in human relationships, compassion is very new. And so new is registered as dangerous. I think so compassion feels dangerous. I see it.

• 2:13:11Speaker 02

  When I talk about kids' behavior through a more generous lens, parents, oh, so you're saying my kid's just gonna be like this forever? Like compassion feels dangerous because it's new. And so in the name of, yes, both helping kids, but also helping adults, we have to start with the adult. I just firmly believe parents, every parent loves the heck out of their kid. And every parent is doing the best they can with the resources they have. And if they want to do something differently, or they want to break cycles, or have some type of intergenerational change, intergenerational change doesn't start by changing your interaction with your kid. It starts by changing your interaction with yourself. You have to change something internally to give out something new, right?

• 2:13:54Speaker 02

  I feel like there's a visual, it's a math equation of that. And so, yes, I think being more of the parent you want to be to your kid probably starts with recognizing the good inside yourself.

• 2:14:06Trevor Noah?

  Dr. Becky, this was as wonderful as I hoped it would be. Thank you so much for the work you do.

• 2:14:12Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 2:14:13Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, because I think all of us take for granted that every single person we meet in the world is the way they are, oftentimes because of how they were parented. And if all of us got the hugs, the recognition, the repair, the trust, and the reassurance that we deserve, the world might be a much, much, much better place. So, thank you very much for joining us. This was amazing.

• 2:14:37Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 2:14:39Trevor Noah?

  This is really great, thank you.

• 2:14:40Speaker 02

  This is so good.

• 2:14:41Speaker 05

  Hope you got Trevor to say "piece of shit" twice.

• 2:14:43Speaker 02

  Oh, good. Is that more than the average?

• 2:14:45Speaker 05

  It's never happened before.

• 2:14:46Speaker 02

  Oh, wow!

• 2:14:48Trevor Noah?

  This episode is presented by Whole Foods Market. Whole Foods Market has everything you need for the holidays, whether you're a guest or hosting the big dinner. Whole Foods Market has convenient and cost-friendly finds that'll delight everyone at your table, plus great gift ideas, all of which follow the Whole Foods Market's strict ingredient standards. Shop for everything you need at Whole Foods Market, your holiday headquarters.

• 2:15:16Trevor Noah?

  What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Day Zero Productions in partnership with Sirius XM. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jess Hackel. Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robiu. Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown. Random other stuff by Ryan Parduth. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of What Now.

• 2:15:50Speaker 08

  Time for a quick break to talk about McDonald's. It's the tangiest time of the year. For a limited time, head to McDonald's and get a McRib sandwich. Make it a meal by adding a medium fries and a soft drink like an ice cold Diet Dr. Pepper. So grab a McRib sandwich and embrace the tang. Save time by ordering ahead on the app. At participating McDonald's for a limited time. Dr. Pepper is a registered trademark of Dr. Pepper 7-Up Inc.

• 2:16:14Speaker 07

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