How Much Should You Tip For One Muffin?

Are the vibes at a restaurant more important than the food? Would you rip a bagel and drag a piece through cream cheese, instead of slicing and spreading? Do you tip less when you get bad service? We get into these questions and a lot more in this edition of The Salad Spinner, our rapid fire roundtable discussion of food news and trends, live at SiriusXM headquarters in New York City!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Pashman?

  You put a lot of love into the things you send during the holidays. It's baked with love, carefully packed with love, or shipped with love right from home. Because what you're sending isn't just what's inside the box. It's the time, thought, and care you put into it. And this holiday season, the United States Postal Service is delivering your love to more addresses in America than anyone else. So send it with love. Send it with USPS. The United States Postal Service. Learn more at USPS.com/holiday. I grew up on Lando Lake's cheese. I still remember going to the supermarket deli counter with my mom and her ordering Lando Lake's American cheese. And now Lando Lake's cheese and butter are a huge part of my home. There are so many easy weeknight recipes using Lando Lake's cheese and butter that bring delicious restaurant taste right to your table.

• 0:44Dan Pashman?

  From chicken parm to weeknight shrimp pad thai, Lando Lake's has plenty of quick dishes that'll have the whole dinner table talking. Visit landolakes.com/reцепes/collection for easy weeknight dinners.

• 0:59Dan Pashman?

  This episode contains explicit language.

• 1:03Dan Pashman?

  This is the Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. And we are coming to you live from Sirius XM Studios in New York City.

• 1:22Dan Pashman?

  We are here at the mothership Sirius XM Studios in the heart of Midtown with an intimate audience that was lucky enough to be picked out of a raffle to win. So that's why you should be listening carefully and follow me on Instagram because you could win exciting things like that. But this is even more exciting than a normal live show because this will be our first ever attempt at a live version of a salad spinner episode, okay? Salad spinner, of course, is what we call our rapid fire roundtable discussion of the biggest, strangest, and most surprising food stories of the moment. Joining me are two very special guests. First up, we have Deena Shankar, a reporter for Bloomberg and Bloomberg Businessweek, where she covers food, health, and the personal care business. Welcome, Deena.

• 2:05Dan Pashman?

  And Mamri Hart is an actor, comedian, and podcast host. Her 2015 book, You Deserve a Drink, was a New York Times bestseller. It's a collection of drinking stories and hangover tales paired with cocktail recipes. These days, she co-hosts the podcast, This Might Get Weird, along with her friend Grace Helbig. And now she has her first cookbook out called All I Think About is Food. Welcome, Mamri.

• 2:31Dan Pashman?

  Now, before we get into the spinner, let's just spend a minute and just get to know each other a little bit, okay? Dina, you've been covering food for many years. Do you have a personal favorite, as a food journalist, food business reporter, personal favorite story that you've covered over the years that really stuck with you?

• 2:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I would say one of my favorite stories ever was called "The Curse of the Honeycrisp Apple." It was about eight years old, so it was about how everybody loves to eat Honeycrisp, but as it turns out, farmers really hate to grow them. Whenever I'm interviewing someone, I always end with, you know, like a, "And, you know, stay in touch and let me know if you hear anything weird." And I was like, "I mean, if it turns out that like the Honeycrisp is actually the worst." She was like, "The Honeycrisp is the worst."

• 3:12Dan Pashman?

  What? So why?

• 3:13Speaker 01

  What? Basically, like, the apples of our youth, the Gallas, the Red Delicious, those terrible apples.

• 3:21Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, terrible.

• 3:21Speaker 01

  Terrible. So they were not bred, it's gonna shock you to learn, they were not bred to taste good. They were bred to travel well and to look good. And so the Honeycrisp was actually bred to taste good. And so it has that thin skin that gives it that nice crunch. It's really sweet, all those things that also make it really difficult to grow. So the thin skin and the sweetness actually make like birds really like them. So all these growers have to put up all this netting. And like, you talk to any of these apple farmers and you're chatting and talking, and then you say like, "So tell me about the Honeycrisp." And at the time, they'd be like, "Oh, oh, the Honeycrisp."

• 3:59Dan Pashman?

  Has that changed at all, as far as you know?

• 4:01Speaker 01

  So what's interesting is I actually saw recently, Sirius Eats did a story, basically how like Honeycrisp's aren't good anymore. And...

• 4:09Speaker 02

  Sorry.

• 4:10Speaker 01

  Well...

• 4:10Dan Pashman?

  Is that true?

• 4:13Speaker 02

  That's my go-to apple.

• 4:14Dan Pashman?

  Are you okay, Mamri?

• 4:15Speaker 02

  No. First they take the Granny Smith, now the Honeycrisp. It's been a hard year.

• 4:22Dan Pashman?

  Well, because we did a story years ago about the Cosmic Crisp. Are you familiar with the Cosmic Crisp? So this was the apple they spent 20 years developing in Washington State that was supposed to be like, uh, in some ways to solve some of these problems of the Honeycrisp.

• 4:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:34Dan Pashman?

  I haven't, have you followed that at all? How's it going?

• 4:36Speaker 01

  I mean, I think everybody wanted to like make the next Honeycrisp and nobody did it. But I think actually the, what happened is better. Like they made a lot of different good apples and that's better for biodiversity and it's better for shoppers. And now if you buy a bag of Honeycrisp at the supermarket, it doesn't taste like the way they did 10 years ago when we didn't, when they were new and exciting and it was like.

• 4:59Dan Pashman?

  But see, is that the apple's fault? Because years ago, we did an episode on Cracker Jack. And I remember, because there's debate, there's controversy, that people think there aren't as many peanuts in Cracker Jack as there used to be. And I interviewed a, a guy named Ted Berg, a reporter who used to be a ballpark food vendor at the old Shea Stadium where the Mets played. And he said to me, something I always, that always took me, he said, is it true that Cracker Jack is getting worse? Or are we all just a little bit older and sadder?

• 5:27Speaker 01

  Um, we're definitely older and sadder, but I don't think the two are necessar- like it's not mutually, it could be both, it could be both.

• 5:35Dan Pashman?

  We asked each of you to come equipped with one hot take. Dina, what's your hot take for this episode?

• 5:40Speaker 01

  Um, that would be that, uh, saltless pretzels are a crime against food.

• 5:44Dan Pashman?

  Mamie, what's your take on this?

• 5:45Speaker 02

  I love all the salt. When I'm eating pretzels, I'm dabbing my finger. I'm getting the coarse grain salt from the end. I'm, I'm leaving the table five pounds heavier. I love a salted pretzel, but I do think the method of, I have been, I have brushed off a little salt. But here's the thing is then everyone's happy. Keep them salty, brush them off if you need.

• 6:05Dan Pashman?

  Then you can custom tailor it.

• 6:06Speaker 02

  But if someone gave me unsalted pretzels.

• 6:10Dan Pashman?

  You also need to take into account that you, the thickness of the pretzel.

• 6:14Speaker 02

  True. Is it a rod?

• 6:14Dan Pashman?

  Right. If it's a rod, like the thins, those are very thin. Those are too salty because they have a lot of salt and almost no pretzel interior.

• 6:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:22Dan Pashman?

  So it's about the ratio of salt, salty exterior to pretzel interior.

• 6:25Speaker 02

  It's surface area.

• 6:25Dan Pashman?

  Thank you, yes.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  I agree that you want the right ratio, but I don't think that there's ever a time when you want one part of that ratio to be.

• 6:32Dan Pashman?

  Correct. I'm with you on that. All right, Mamie, let's turn to you. You have a new cookbook out. Congratulations. It's entitled, All I Think About Is Food, A Vegetarian Cookbook That'll Keep The Party Going. What I love about this book is that it feels fancy. It looks fancy. The photographs are beautiful. There's something that is very like sort of a luxurious upscale look and feel, but then the recipes are all very accessible.

• 6:56Speaker 02

  I'm not a trained chef, but I love to cook. So I'm not going to make anything that a normal, everyday person couldn't make, but I am going to bring the drama. So you're going to have normal food at my dinner parties, but I am going to show up in a caftan.

• 7:11Dan Pashman?

  But I mean, some of the recipes that caught my eye, figs, figs in a blanket.

• 7:15Speaker 02

  Oh, so good.

• 7:16Dan Pashman?

  Gochujang eggplant ribs. Artichokes Rockefeller, heirloom tomatoes with down home dukka.

• 7:23Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 7:23Dan Pashman?

  Dukka, of course, Middle Eastern mix of spices and nuts that I can imagine being insane.

• 7:28Speaker 02

  It's so good. And I do it with a little brown sugar, cayenne and pecan. So it feels southern.

• 7:33Dan Pashman?

  Right. I love that. You're from North Carolina.

• 7:35Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 7:36Dan Pashman?

  That's very fitting. Tell me, this one, I want to hear a bit more about the cauliflower steaks with peppercorn bordelaise.

• 7:42Speaker 02

  I love a red wine reduction. You know, I'm cooking all the time. My fiancee eats meat. So I, but I always want to do like a pan sauce that I can also use. So like a good spicy peppercorn with that like red wine reduction. It just cauliflower steaks are kind of boring, but not if you bring a little, you know, accessory to the party.

• 8:01Dan Pashman?

  Right. So you do, so bordelaise typically is like one of the classic French sauces, like a red wine reduction with some kind of stock. You just do vegetable stock?

• 8:08Speaker 02

  Exactly. Or do, I do, there's, they've come a long way with bouillon that are vegetarian that do give you the meat flavor. So I utilize that in it.

• 8:17Dan Pashman?

  And of course, it would not be very on brand if you didn't have drinks in your book as well.

• 8:22Speaker 02

  We got so many cocktails. So in this book, it's 10 vegetarian dinner parties. So you've got the starters, the mains, the sides, and then you have cocktails with everything. Because I love a good glass of wine. You know, I, I'm a sommelier. I adore it. But I think we aren't doing enough cocktail pairing with food. And sometimes you go out and you order something and it completely. It clashes with what you're eating.

• 8:45Dan Pashman?

  Yeah.

• 8:45Speaker 02

  So I pair cocktails with the food.

• 8:48Dan Pashman?

  Tell me about this pineapple and black pepper mule.

• 8:51Speaker 02

  Oh, okay. Well, I think black pepper on top of pineapple is like an ultimate flavor combination. It brings a little spice to what I think is an incredibly sweet fruit. I've got served it once at a very like upscale Mexican dinner and I was like, oh, this is perfect. So let's do that with ginger and let's make a like a regular mule cocktail, but with a little black pepper and pineapple. And then I say, if you want to garnish it with an edible, it's now a drug mule.

• 9:18Dan Pashman?

  By the way, let the record reflect that Mamri has olive earrings. Not the color olive, but like, it's like actual cocktail olives on a spear dangling from her ears.

• 9:26Speaker 02

  These were gifted to me on book tour by, by her readers. I love it.

• 9:30Dan Pashman?

  Mamri, what's your hot take?

• 9:31Speaker 02

  My hot take is as more and more grocery stores have you doing self-checkout, if you go through the motions of checking out everything, typing in your produce number, bagging it, et cetera, you should get a 10% discount. Hard agree.

• 9:46Dan Pashman?

  I like this in theory, but apparently some stores that have, that switched to a lot of the self-checkout line are thinking about switching back because they're having such a big problem with theft.

• 9:58Speaker 02

  Right.

• 9:58Dan Pashman?

  So I think some people are already doing this, Mamri.

• 10:02Speaker 02

  I have talked to a friend about this and they were like, well, you know, if that one doesn't ring up, you know, I'll put it in the bag. My theft days are over from high school. Okay. I got plenty from Abercrombie and Fitch. I'm through it. I've worked past the guilt. I'm not going to steal. However, I do think it is a pain in the butt to ring up your own groceries.

• 10:21Dan Pashman?

  Yeah. And I mean, the percentage of times that I'm able to get out there without an issue.

• 10:26Speaker 02

  Exactly. Someone has to be called over.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  Do you lose percentage of your discount every time you have to ask for assistance?

• 10:31Speaker 02

  Absolutely not. Dina, don't.

• 10:32Dan Pashman?

  You should gain. You should be compensated with the extra time. It's supposed to be a time saver. So if I have to go, if I have to wait for the person to come over with the card because the stupid machine doesn't work.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  Is it supposed to be a time saver for us or for them?

• 10:46Speaker 02

  I think it's a money saver for them. It's less employees. It makes it easier. Less people have to be on a shift at once. And as someone who eats a lot of produce, I think that's why I'm especially annoyed with it because you are having to do the way. You are, it's not just swipe, swipe, swipe. You know, you're having to plug in every little thing. So I need a little reward.

• 11:06Speaker 01

  I've never told anybody this, but I did once forget to ring up my ginger knob and I got back to the car and I was like.

• 11:12Dan Pashman?

  Oh my.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  Is that a siren I hear?

• 11:18Dan Pashman?

  All right, I think we're all warmed up. Should we spin the spinner?

• 11:21Speaker 01

  Spin it up.

• 11:21Dan Pashman?

  This is very exciting because this is the first time we've done a salad spinner with a salad spinner present. Normally when we record these, we just say, spin the spinner. And then later on in post, our engineer, Jared O'Connell, inserts a sound effect of his personal salad spinner, which he recorded in his house. And yes, for folks listening at home, we have mic'd the salad spinner. So, Dina, would you like to do the honors? Would you like to spin the spinner to get us started here? Yes. All right.

• 11:52Dan Pashman?

  Very nice.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  All my money on black.

• 11:54Dan Pashman?

  Is that sounding good in the control room? Let's get into some news here. The Wall Street Journal reports that Americans are tipping less at restaurants than they have in at least six years. This trend is driven by fatigue over a rise in prices and more of those touchscreen prompts for tips at places where tips didn't used to be expected. Now, the Journal made a quiz. So, the three of us are gonna take this quiz right now.

• 12:20Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 12:20Dan Pashman?

  Okay? Now, it's multiple choice for each one. It's how much do you tip in each of these scenarios? The choices are none, 15%, 20%, or 25%. So, zero, 15, 20, or 25. Ready? You get bottled water at an airport concession stand. How much do you tip?

• 12:39Speaker 01

  Zero.

• 12:39Dan Pashman?

  Zero, says Dina. Mamri? I'll punch in a dollar. So, you go custom? I'll go custom. All right, okay, all right. 98% said none. You get two cappuccinos and a muffin to go at a counter. How much do you tip? Mamri? 20%. Dina?

• 12:55Speaker 01

  Oh, gosh. I don't know, like 15% because I feel bad. But really, you shouldn't have to tip. Well, actually, I guess the cappuccinos are a prepared item. This is a tough one.

• 13:05Dan Pashman?

  I would probably do either 15% or a dollar. You know, like back before we paid for everything with credit cards.

• 13:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:13Dan Pashman?

  You would have given someone the cash. They would have given you back cash and coins, and you put the coins in the tip jar.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:19Dan Pashman?

  And keep the cash. Maybe if it was especially a lot or especially good service, you'd put a couple of dollar bills in. But mostly, it would be just the coins.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:27Dan Pashman?

  So, the two cappuccinos and a muffin to go, 55% of people said they would not tip.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 13:32Dan Pashman?

  On that. 36% of people said 15%.

• 13:37Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 13:38Dan Pashman?

  And it was very few in the others.

• 13:39Speaker 02

  Well, here's my question, too. There's so many variables. Is this your neighborhood coffee shop? And you know, and you know, you're going every day and you love this staff and they really nail it for you? Or is this a Starbucks at JFK?

• 13:51Dan Pashman?

  I got into a disagreement with my wife. We went, we were in the mall with our kids. We went for boba tea. The kids and my wife each got a boba tea. A boba tea is like $8 apiece. They got these big bobas teas. So it rings up, it's like $25. Now, it takes 18 seconds to make a boba tea. It comes out of a machine. The bill, the thing comes up and it says 15, 20, or 25% and I just typed in $2.

• 14:14Speaker 02

  You went custom.

• 14:14Dan Pashman?

  Which I think is, right, I went custom. And my wife was upset that I didn't do 20% on $25. So she wanted me to give a $5 tip for three bobas teas. That seems like a lot to me.

• 14:26Speaker 01

  I'm on, I'm on your side.

• 14:27Speaker 02

  What if that boba tea had vodka in it?

• 14:31Speaker 02

  Then, once alcohol is involved, just because it takes two seconds and it's a highball drink with two ingredients, you're still expected to tip because of the buzz. So is there not a difference for regular beverages? I have no argument, no skin in the game on this one, but.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  But I feel like there was a time when it was like, and I say this from when I was a bartender back in college, that like, the tip was like a dollar a drink.

• 14:52Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  And then I recently was like doing some tipping at a bar and I was like, what the fuck is the tip now? I don't even know.

• 14:59Dan Pashman?

  But Mamie, you hit on a good point, which is, I think there is a difference between a person making boba tea at the mall and a person mixing a drink, which is that the minimum wage is different for those two jobs.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 15:11Dan Pashman?

  So the person in New York State, if you're making boba tea at the mall, you're, you're getting what? $15 an hour, maybe more? I mean, $15, but with inflation, it's, it had so many businesses have had such trouble keeping people. They might be paying $18 an hour. A bartender doesn't get $18 an hour because they're a tipped employee. They have a lower minimum wage. So I do think it's a different calculation once you add alcohol.

• 15:31Speaker 02

  No, that is a great point. And also because if you are with a cocktail and they're sitting down with their $15 drink, you as a bartender are entertaining them.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  Also true.

• 15:41Speaker 02

  Or, or possibly having to engage in conversation. It's another part of the tip factor as opposed to just grab and go.

• 15:48Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 15:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:49Dan Pashman?

  Right. Okay. Let's keep the poll going. You have a sit down meal at a restaurant with a bottle of wine. What percentage do you tip?

• 15:55Speaker 01

  Uh, like the 20, I mean, assuming everything was good and normal, like 25%.

• 15:59Dan Pashman?

  25%?

• 16:00Speaker 01

  Twenty to twenty-five.

• 16:02Dan Pashman?

  Yeah. Seventy-four percent of people said twenty percent. That was the overwhelming winner. A few said fifteen, few said twenty-five.

• 16:08Speaker 01

  I think twenty percent is the new fifteen percent, right? It's the minimum.

• 16:11Dan Pashman?

  Yeah. Um, next one. You have a sit-down meal at a nice restaurant, but the service is bad. Okay. Zero, fifteen, twenty, or twenty-five?

• 16:21Speaker 01

  Twenty. Twenty.

• 16:22Dan Pashman?

  Fifty. Yeah, see, I, I have trouble going below. I mean, I waited tables. It's very hard for me to go below twenty percent.

• 16:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:27Dan Pashman?

  Like, if it's really bad, maybe I would do like eighteen.

• 16:30Speaker 01

  Right, right, right, right.

• 16:31Dan Pashman?

  I think there was one time in my life where I didn't leave a tip because the server was like egregiously mean.

• 16:39Dan Pashman?

  Almost abusive, like I felt like I was being attacked.

• 16:43Dan Pashman?

  And that was the one time in my life. We're gonna get into some nuance here. You have a sit-down meal at a restaurant, and the bill includes a credit card charge. So, you know, a lot of places now, they, they say the prices in the menu are for cash. And then when you pay with a credit card, they add three or three and a half percent because they're paying a credit card fee to the credit card company. So, if you have a sit-down meal at a restaurant, and the bill is charging you extra for using a credit card, does it affect your tip? And if so, how much?

• 17:08Speaker 01

  No, it doesn't.

• 17:09Dan Pashman?

  I generally, it wouldn't affect my tip either. But I was surprised to see that it, in this poll, it had a major effect. Remember, with good service, standard meal-out restaurant, three-quarters of people said twenty percent. But when you add in the credit card fee, it was basically split half and half between fifteen percent and twenty percent.

• 17:31Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 17:32Dan Pashman?

  So, a huge portion of people, roughly thirty percent of people shifted down their tip to account for the credit card charge, which does not go to the server.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, this is just why tipping is a terrible system.

• 17:46Dan Pashman?

  All right, should we spin the spinner again?

• 17:48Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 17:48Dan Pashman?

  Mamre, you're up.

• 17:52Dan Pashman?

  Well done.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  Sorry.

• 17:53Dan Pashman?

  I like the chew handed press. That was right like press your leg style.

• 17:57Speaker 01

  I like full cartoon dynamite.

• 18:02Dan Pashman?

  All right, next news story. RFK Jr.'s Make America Healthy Again Crusade, also known as Maha, continues to make waves in the food world. Dina, you wrote a piece for Bloomberg entitled, "Why Fast Food Could Be Maha's Next Target." I want to talk about that, but I do want to say, because you make this point in your article, some of the things that he's proposing actually do have the backing of health experts.

• 18:23Speaker 01

  A lot of what RFK says on food comes from a long line of people that have been saying the same thing, but just less loudly, or maybe to the wrong audience. I don't know.

• 18:35Dan Pashman?

  And are those people like respected experts?

• 18:38Speaker 01

  Well, respected experts. I mean, if we, like, if we were talking about, like, the, the big one is, of course, the food dyes. The only people out there that are, like, defending food dyes are people that make money off of products with food dyes in them. And so they have been attacked by consumer advocates, health advocates, I mean, like nutritionists. Everyone agrees that the food dyes are bad. Listen, I have absolutely zero political opinions myself.

• 19:06Dan Pashman?

  Speaking as a journalist.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  As a journalist.

• 19:07Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 19:08Speaker 01

  So I know a lot of people want to just make a joke out of something because RFK is the one saying it, but a lot of what he says has a fair amount of scientific backing.

• 19:16Dan Pashman?

  Right. Let's talk about more about the food dyes because you bring that one up. Let's talk about that first. So the opening line of the piece is, "If a potato chip isn't bright red, will people know it's spicy?" But that is a lot, like, we have been conditioned to make observations about a food based on its color. And that's part of the eating experience. So like, so where are we at with this? Because this goes back to before the Trump administration, right?

• 19:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 19:37Dan Pashman?

  Biden, under his administration, actually outlawed one of the red dyes.

• 19:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, so Biden's FDA put a ban on red three effective 2027. And that was a big one. But there's a whole bunch of other dyes out there. The ones that are not banned are the ones that you would find like in your box of Fruit Loops is the big example. The dyes make things look more attractive. They certainly attract children. I mean, red is associated with with something being hot. So if you look at like the Flamin' Hot Lays compared to like the new Simply

• 20:16Dan Pashman?

  Ruffles, right.

• 20:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:17Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, PepsiCo Frito-Lay just got to the end of a year-long effort to launch Simply Ruffles Hot and Spicy, which is a version of the famous Ruffles Flamin' Hots, but with no artificial colors or flavors.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:28Dan Pashman?

  The resulting chips just at shelves in March, they're not flaming red, they're orangish and speckled with spices. But as you write in your piece, placed next to the Ruffles Flamin' Hots, you say that the new ones are sort of a little more beige.

• 20:40Speaker 01

  I had to go out and buy like original plain Lays to compare to the Simply Hot and Spicy Ruffles because I was like, are these the same? And they weren't exactly the same. They were more orangey. But compared to the Flamin' Hots, like, they're practically colorless.

• 20:56Dan Pashman?

  So if everyone says the dyes are so bad, why didn't Biden ban more of them?

• 21:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, how many are there? They banned number three. Is this like Pantone colors?

• 21:05Dan Pashman?

  Yeah.

• 21:05Speaker 01

  What are we looking at? So I think there are six commonly used other dyes. Okay. Red 3 has, there are studies that showed that it caused cancer in rats. There's a specific law that requires the FDA to ban anything that might cause cancer. So that had a specific, and there was a petition filed with the FDA, and the FDA granted it, and it was specific to Red 3. So the other dyes were not impacted by that. The other dyes, there's, the real concern there is that they may lead to hyperactivity, like ADHD and associated issues in some children. And so, you know, the industry says they're

• 21:44Speaker 01

  safe, the food industry, the beverage industry, the dyes industry, they all say they're safe. But at the same time, the push against dyes has been building for as long as I've been a food reporter, and they're taking them out.

• 21:58Dan Pashman?

  So another issue that RFK Jr. and Maha, this movement is, which seems to have a little bit of less scientific backing, Dina, is to replace seed oils with beef tallow.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:11Dan Pashman?

  RFK tweeted a little while back, "Make frying oil tallow again."

• 22:15Speaker 01

  God, that's stupid. Enough with the merch.

• 22:22Dan Pashman?

  First off, Dina, is beef tallow actually any better for you than vegetable oil or seed oils?

• 22:27Speaker 01

  You know, nutrition science changes, so I don't like to say anything with any certainty, but the non-Maha-associated nutrition scientists that I've asked about this, they're not happy about the takeoff of this movement because there's actually a fair amount of research showing that vegetable oils are better for you when you substitute them in for animal fats. And so, all of this anti-seed oil fervor, I mean, I spoke to one who was, he doesn't want people, you know, not having the salad because they're worried about the canola oil in the salad dressing.

• 23:00Dan Pashman?

  Right. If you're like, "I'm gonna skip the salad because it has seed oil on it, and I'll still get the french fries cooked in beef tallow because I want to be healthy."

• 23:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:10Dan Pashman?

  You're right, you're really in trouble.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  Although, I have to say, since Mamri is a vegetarian and wrote a vegetarian cookbook, I will say that one thing that nobody really talks about in this tallow debate is, think of the vegetarian.

• 23:23Speaker 02

  Thank you. Think of the one thing I can eat at a fast food restaurant has now ripped away from me, the french fry. The french fry raised me. I would not be here without the french fry, growing up in rural North Carolina. So, all of a sudden, I can't do french fries. That's a gasp-worthy thought.

• 23:43Dan Pashman?

  And we should say, which we covered this briefly on a previous episode, but it's worth repeating, that the evidence that seed oils are bad for you is dubious at best, at least as we sit here today. All right, we're gonna take a short break. When we come back, my guest and I will weigh in on a new trend in cocktails and another new trend in bagel eating. That's coming up, stick around.

• 24:17Speaker 03

  It's time to open up a can of advertisements.

• 24:22Dan Pashman?

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• 25:07Dan Pashman?

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• 25:50Dan Pashman?

  And for holiday entertaining inspiration, recipes, and more, visit boarshead.com.

• 25:56Dan Pashman?

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• 26:25Dan Pashman?

  For a long time, I did not understand the point of vests. Like, why not just have a jacket? That covers your arms, too. But something clicked for me. I think I got gifted a vest, and now I am obsessed with vests. And it just adds that little bit of toastiness. And I got this new Quince Packable Puffer Vest. I love that you can just squish it up and shove it in the bottom of your bag. That way, you have it with you all day. If it gets a little chilly, break out the vest. I also got a Quince Down Quilted Vest. It is so soft and cozy. They make them for men and women. And as with everything you get at Quince, they focus on high-quality staples made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, 14-karat gold, and Italian leather. These are all timeless, versatile pieces that feel special to unwrap and become everyday favorites long after the holidays.

• 27:09Dan Pashman?

  Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was The Sporkful. It's the best way to support the show.

• 27:31Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back to The Sporkful. I'm Dan Pashman. Last week on the show, we heard the story of the man who revolutionized the tequila industry, the one and only Jose Cuervo. Yes, he was a real guy. And in the early 1900s, he navigated bloody business rivalries and cozied up to a dictator to build his empire. It was all going great until the Mexican Revolution. When revolutionaries raid his distillery, Jose Cuervo has to run for his life.

• 27:55Speaker 04

  He's afraid that spies are watching, and so he hops from rooftop to rooftop, all down the block, you know, takes the gutter pipe down to the street level and makes his way to a nephew's home where he borrows his horse and rides out into the countryside.

• 28:11Dan Pashman?

  That's Ted Jenaway, a journalist and author who has an epic new book out all about Jose Cuervo, the tequila industry, and a lot of the history of Mexico. I really enjoyed my conversation with Ted. Hear the story of Jose Cuervo in last week's show. All right, we are back with Bloomberg reporter Dina Shanker and comedian, actor, and author Mamri Hart, whose new cookbook is All I Think About Is Food. And we're live here at Sirius XM Studios in New York City. Thank you all so much for being here. Okay, Dina, you're up. Your turn to spin the spinner.

• 28:37Speaker 01

  All right, I'm gonna do it really nicely this time.

• 28:39Dan Pashman?

  Okay, I thought you did it well the first time, but that was a very dainty spin.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  That's how people always describe me. That's for like an arugula.

• 28:48Dan Pashman?

  Our next story is about rip and dip bagels. Have you been following this trend, either of you?

• 28:53Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 28:54Dan Pashman?

  Mamri's nodding.

• 28:54Speaker 02

  Just via Instagram, just via my algorithm of what's cool and trendy in New York.

• 28:58Dan Pashman?

  So, a bagel shop called Pop-Up Bagels, which started in Connecticut, so you know, but it's now opened up some shops in New York. They've been promoting a unique way of eating bagels called the rip and dip. The owner says he saw his customers in Connecticut doing this technique where they grab a bagel, tear off a piece, and dip it into the cream cheese. The owner decided to lead into the trend, he started posting on social media. He even trademarked the phrase "grip, rip, and dip", which may not bode so well for other bagel shops in Seattle, San Francisco, and LA who are also promoting the rip and dip. They're about to get a cease and desist letter, I think. So Mamri, what's your take on this trend?

• 29:32Speaker 02

  My take is this is a great trend because that's how I would eat a bagel. Because the fact is, if you are a person who wants a lot of the cream cheese, et cetera, or to dip, if you have that much on the bagel itself, it's naturally going to do the squeeze out. You know, you're naturally, it's gonna come off, and then you're just gonna end up going to the rip and dip method anyway. So you might as well start with that. I'm a big dip person, big chip person, so any way I can do that form in other foods, I'm in.

• 29:58Dan Pashman?

  Dina, thoughts?

• 30:00Speaker 01

  Well, I think, is the bagel good? That's all that matters here, is the bagel good? If the bagel's good, eat it however you want. And if it's not, then don't, you know, like, buy a dozen of them just so you can throw them in the compost, not that we've done that in my house.

• 30:13Dan Pashman?

  I like this in theory, because I, like you Mamri, I love dipping, because I feel like it just gives you a lot of control over how much of the condiment you're gonna get in each bite, where is it gonna be in relation to the rest of the things you're dipping, and you can vary from one bite to the next. So there's a lot of reasons, like when I eat a burger or a hot dog, I will always dip, I never apply a condiment directly to a burger or a hot dog. I put the ketchup and mustard, I mix them together in a little puddle on the side of the plate, and then I dip on a per bite basis.

• 30:39Speaker 02

  A mix?

• 30:40Dan Pashman?

  Yes.

• 30:41Speaker 02

  I'm impressed. I do think there is something about you can have variation. So like, maybe you wanna try some different dips. So if you have a bagel and you're like, "Well, I would like to try a couple different cream cheeses, but they would not go well together stacked."

• 30:55Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 30:56Speaker 02

  I'm all, I want a little sauce buffet with every meal.

• 31:00Dan Pashman?

  That's an advantage I hadn't even thought of. But you make a good point, Dina, which is that I'm worried, what worries me about this trend is that I feel like it's another bagel-related trend that's gonna allow...

• 31:10Dan Pashman?

  Shitty bagels to go unchecked.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  And like the cream cheese is good, so maybe like you don't care.

• 31:16Dan Pashman?

  Well, also, when you're really gonna do a big, deep dip, you're getting like a tablespoon of cream cheese in each bite.

• 31:23Speaker 01

  You're, talk about a bad ratio.

• 31:24Dan Pashman?

  Right, that's a bad ratio. And it's also like, you're disrespecting the bagel.

• 31:29Speaker 01

  100%.

• 31:29Dan Pashman?

  So like-

• 31:30Speaker 01

  But this is America. And if I want that much, I should be given that option. Dip less. Listen, I-

• 31:38Speaker 01

  It's not how I would choose to eat a bagel.

• 31:40Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  I don't really want to actually, now that I think about it, see someone eat a rip and dip bagel. But-

• 31:45Dan Pashman?

  It probably looks unseemly.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  Yep. In the privacy of their own home. I mean, don't do that on a subway.

• 31:50Dan Pashman?

  Oh, God, no.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  Can't eat anything on a subway. It's easier said than done.

• 31:55Dan Pashman?

  Right. So I think it sounds like we're on board with the rip and dip technique, but not if it's being used as a way to conceal subpar bagels by drowning them in cream cheese.

• 32:05Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 32:07Dan Pashman?

  Can I have a turn to spin the spinner?

• 32:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'd love for that.

• 32:10Dan Pashman?

  Let me give it a try.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  How'd it feel?

• 32:14Dan Pashman?

  It was good, yeah. Next time, maybe I'll stand up. I didn't stand up. I feel like I didn't have good leverage.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  You gotta do the, try the two-hand technique.

• 32:24Dan Pashman?

  Next up, from the spinner, the rise of functional sodas, which that name needs a rebrand. These are sodas that purport to serve a function beyond hydration, typically a health function. The best-known ones are Poppy and Ollie Pop. Recently, the news broke that PepsiCo is buying Poppy for nearly $2 billion, with a B, $2 billion. Ollie Pop just got valued at $1.85 billion. Deena, you've covered this for Bloomberg. What's going on here?

• 32:52Speaker 01

  Well, not only have I covered it, I broke that Pepsi-Poppy news.

• 32:55Dan Pashman?

  Oh, superstar journalist in the house. Yes.

• 32:59Speaker 01

  Thank you. Thank you. I had some help from other reporters of it.

• 33:03Dan Pashman?

  It was mostly you, though. Yeah.

• 33:05Speaker 01

  Um, anyway, so basically these are the new sodas and there's a million of them. That includes some that have already gone out of business, but there's a whole bunch of them. Basically their big claim is zero or less sugar, which

• 33:21Dan Pashman?

  Zero or less?

• 33:22Speaker 01

  Oh, sorry, less, yeah, zero negative sugar.

• 33:25Dan Pashman?

  Actually sucks the sugar from your body.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  Or less than standard soda.

• 33:31Dan Pashman?

  Right, right. So low sugar, low sugar or no sugar?

• 33:33Speaker 01

  Low sugar or no sugar. And then often they'll claim like that they're good for your gut bacteria or, I mean, it kind of, sort of like vague categories, but like there are some that will make you feel nice, like mentally, like not exactly high, but just like better.

• 33:50Speaker 02

  Ashwagandha.

• 33:55Dan Pashman?

  Mamri, have you had these?

• 33:56Speaker 02

  I've had a couple. I mean, the fact, I don't, I'm not really like a diet soda drinker to begin with. I'm, I'm a seltzer girl. So I don't really understand the appeal. It also became so popular that I wanted to not be into it. You know what I mean? Like it was, it was too cool that I was like, it's, it's too Tik Tok for me.

• 34:13Dan Pashman?

  We actually covered Ollie Pop a bit in an episode about the competition for shelf space in grocery stores. What we heard was typically, you know, there's only so much shelf space. You gotta kick out one beverage to make room for a new one. And the beverages that most often were getting kicked out to make room for these new sodas were kombuchas. Now, just a few years ago, I, we, I would not have thought someone crazy if they predicted that soon, kombucha will overtake Coca-Cola. And now it's passe.

• 34:44Dan Pashman?

  So what do you think is the future of these beverages? Are they going to go the way of kombucha? Or are they going to enter the pantheon of mainstream beverages?

• 34:52Speaker 01

  I feel like the beverage category is just like a constant churn. And there's like always new stuff coming in and old stuff going out. And like these new sodas are in some ways like, aren't so different from kombucha. Everyone I spoke to was like, this category is just getting started. So people in the category, people outside the category. And I, I was just like, really? It's like, Wow, I don't, I mean, I drank a lot of these things to write this story. And I was like, I, I, I didn't feel so good.

• 35:23Speaker 02

  I think it's, I feel like though, I feel like it's a little hand in hand with just the fact that Gen Z is way less into alcohol.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:30Speaker 02

  So then this becomes their liquid treat as opposed to end of the night. You know, if I'm making myself a nightcap, they're making themselves a poppy soda with magnesium and a little tart cherry juice. And it becomes their ritual of mocktail and drink and like how to do something fun in a glass since it's a, it's just a lower ABV generation.

• 35:51Dan Pashman?

  My kids love poppy. My question is, are these drinks soda? They like calling it a soda because it makes it feel like a less junk foodie version of a beloved beverage. So it's smart for them. But like, there's other kinds of carbonated beverages besides soda. Why is this not like a flavored, a different kind of flavored seltzer? Where is the line between flavored seltzer and soda?

• 36:18Speaker 02

  That is what I'm asking. And right now I think it's the price and the marketing. So that's the only clear difference I see.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  I think the real big difference is that most seltzer, if it has like a flavor, it's like a, it's like a squeeze of lime or something, but it really tastes like seltzer. Whereas a poppy tastes like a, like a soda. Like it doesn't taste like your Pepsi, but it tastes closer.

• 36:44Dan Pashman?

  If you talk like about like a Spindrift.

• 36:46Speaker 01

  Oh, Spindrift is not a, yeah, that's a seltzer.

• 36:48Dan Pashman?

  Well, but Spindrift has fruit, it's a seltzer, but it has fruit juice in it. It has actual juice in it. So it's not just natural flavors. It has a squeeze of juice.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:56Dan Pashman?

  So like on the spectrum, you have like unflavored seltzer.

• 37:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:02Dan Pashman?

  And then you have like Coke.

• 37:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:04Dan Pashman?

  Or the opposite end. Okay. And then if you move, you have flavored seltzer, moves a little bit, and then from there you have like a Spindrift that has fruit juice in it. And then somewhere in between Coca-Cola and Spindrift are these things, but are they sodas or are they flavored seltzers?

• 37:19Speaker 02

  And it's getting blurry too, because now I saw a Liquid Death, that's root beer flavored. So it's root beer flavored seltzer. So where are we?

• 37:30Speaker 02

  You know, are we going to have Diet Dr. Pepper seltzer? So it's not soda, but it's soda flavored seltzer. It's just getting really blurry on like what's on trend right now.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  That's probably, probably happening.

• 37:40Speaker 02

  Honestly, I'd buy a case right now.

• 37:45Dan Pashman?

  I just want to cite one line from your piece, Dina, which I especially loved because you talk about the price that these quote-unquote "functional sodas" are substantially more expensive than classic sodas. And you write, "In that way, modern soda has earned a place in the little treat economy, in which millennials and Gen Z's micro-dose affordable indulgences to salve the generational pain of dead-end jobs and immiserating rents."

• 38:11Speaker 02

  I know, it's so sad.

• 38:12Dan Pashman?

  So on that happy note, enjoy your functional sodas.

• 38:19Dan Pashman?

  All right, should we spin this spinner one more time?

• 38:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:21Dan Pashman?

  Let's all three spin it together, all right?

• 38:23Speaker 02

  Oh my gosh. One, two, three, go.

• 38:28Speaker 02

  Best one yet.

• 38:29Dan Pashman?

  All right, we're gonna finish up here with a restaurant news lightning round. Okay, which doesn't have to be that fast, we're not in a rush, but you look stressed, Mamri.

• 38:39Dan Pashman?

  We consider putting a clock into this, and I said, "Well, let's not get too carried away." This is all restaurant trends. I'm gonna set up a story, you tell me your reaction. First up, there's a new trend of tiny cocktails in bars and restaurants. Mamri, you are nodding, and as a person who has, who built her career on a YouTube channel called You Deserve a Drink and a cookbook and memoir, or a recipe book and memoir of the same title, I'm gonna turn to you first, but let me just explain, these are like smaller format martinis, three-sip Manhattans, something they sometimes call snackeries. Get it?

• 39:13Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 39:14Dan Pashman?

  Instead of daiquiris. Bar directors say people love these little cocktails because you can have more variety, you can order a couple over the course of a night without getting too drunk, they're cute, and some people just like drinking out of tiny glasses. Mamri, what's your take on the tiny cocktail trend?

• 39:30Speaker 02

  I am absolutely behind this trend. I love it. I had not experienced it till three nights ago in Austin. I went to Teddy's and got a tiny teeny, and I loved it for so many reasons.

• 39:40Dan Pashman?

  Why isn't it called a teeny-teeny?

• 39:42Speaker 02

  Maybe I read it wrong.

• 39:49Speaker 02

  And I was sober.

• 39:52Speaker 02

  I love it because, you know, as they say, martinis are like breasts. One is too few, three are too many. So you get a little bit of variety. Sometimes you just want to kick it off and you get off a hard day of work and you're like, I want that one. Bang. And then I want some variety of different drinks. And also because just your martini getting warm. And unless you're going to an establishment like the Hillstone Group, which I'm a big fan of, which will bring you a fresh cold martini glass to put the remnants of your current one into.

• 40:18Dan Pashman?

  Wow.

• 40:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. Big fan.

• 40:21Speaker 01

  25% tip on that.

• 40:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. There we go. It's incredible. I am going to leisurely sip a martini for a while and the dregs are going to be too warm. So a tiny teeny, you're getting a cold pour every time. Full support of this trend.

• 40:34Dan Pashman?

  Deana, thoughts?

• 40:35Speaker 01

  Well, I just think this is cocktail shrinkflation and I want my whole cocktail.

• 40:39Speaker 02

  But it's half price.

• 40:41Dan Pashman?

  Well, from what I've seen, it's usually not quite half, is it? I think the price per ounce of drink is probably higher.

• 40:47Speaker 02

  I just can't remember the last time I was ever like, you know what? What I really want is a small cocktail. No, but I'm going to achieve the same amount of volume. But what it would be is sometimes I don't want, you know, 10 ounces of gin, but a little like four-ouncer and then I move on to wine. It just feels like less of a commitment. Maybe it's commitment issues.

• 41:08Dan Pashman?

  Should we ask your fiance who's in the audience about that?

• 41:10Speaker 02

  I love you so much, Tim Morgan. Love him.

• 41:13Dan Pashman?

  I will say, I'm all for the tiny cocktail. Partly maybe the variety, like you're saying, Amy, but actually, Deana, I do sometimes think like, I wish I could have half a drink right now. Especially like when you sit down at a restaurant and your stomach is empty. And I don't-

• 41:27Speaker 01

  That's the best time for a big drink.

• 41:28Dan Pashman?

  Well, for a good 15 minutes, it's a lot of fun. But like, if I drink a whole cocktail on an empty stomach and then eat a big meal, I need to go to bed. Like the night's over.

• 41:39Speaker 02

  That's a great night.

• 41:42Dan Pashman?

  Everything I just described, that was like 35 minutes. I like to also see my friends while I'm out. Like I like to have a conversation. So the idea of like a tiny cocktail, eat a little bit of food, have another tiny cocktail. Or like, sometimes I'm in the mood for a beer, but like, if I'm at a good restaurant and I want to save stomach space for food, I don't want to get filled up on beer and carbonation, but I'm in the mood for a beer. I would love, like in Europe, they often have like the 0.3 liter or the 0.5 liter of beer. I love a 0.3 liter because it's like a little taste of beer, but not too filling. Next up on our restaurant news lightning round. Restaurants are increasingly finding ways to tell diners that they have limited time at their table. Some of you may have noticed this. You make a reservation and it pops up for parties of two.

• 42:25Dan Pashman?

  It seems like the industry standard from what I've seen, parties of two 90 minutes. Parties of four or more, two hours. Some waiters have started saying, you know, we're gonna need this table back shortly, or even telling people as they're seated that they have a time limit. Deena, you're shaking your head no. What are your thoughts on this trend?

• 42:41Speaker 01

  I just think hospitality is a lost art. And that that's what makes dining out so great is when like you really feel like you're being taken care of. And if somebody's rushing you, the second you... It's like when I went shopping with my mom in high school and we'd get there and she'd be like, "Okay, you have 45 minutes." And I'd be like, "Okay, well..."

• 43:02Speaker 02

  So nothing feels like it looks as good on you because you're rushing.

• 43:05Speaker 01

  Or everything looks amazing in the store and you're gonna get it all. And then you get home and you're like, "Shit."

• 43:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:11Dan Pashman?

  Man, many thoughts on this trend?

• 43:12Speaker 02

  I mean, it's double edged, right? Because as a former server, you're like, you've had those people camp out. And they're not ordering anything else. And they are standing between you and getting to a birthday party. And they're not spending another dollar. So I see how that works.

• 43:29Dan Pashman?

  And also, if they sit at that table for long enough, you miss another turn.

• 43:32Speaker 02

  Another turn.

• 43:33Dan Pashman?

  So that table doesn't get seated again during the rush.

• 43:36Speaker 02

  Right.

• 43:36Dan Pashman?

  And then by the time they leave, there's no one else coming in. And that one less table could be $50. If you're at a nice restaurant, $50 less.

• 43:43Speaker 02

  Exactly. So I'm glad they had a great time, but like it put less money in my pocket. However...

• 43:47Speaker 01

  Those people are assholes.

• 43:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  And they should have like 30 line item fees on their bill.

• 43:53Speaker 02

  I was just gonna say, maybe there is a post, if you go over the timing, that's the fee you get.

• 43:59Dan Pashman?

  They're gonna start charging you rent for your table.

• 44:01Speaker 02

  Exactly. I will say, if you're gonna tell me that I need to move, and I think hearing it as soon as you sit down is very tough. But I feel like if you are going to have to leave, they should have another option of where you should go. Because like if I am at a restaurant and they're like, "We're gonna need this table back", feel free to have another round. Like, treat me to another round. At the bar and I'll get up in two seconds.

• 44:24Speaker 01

  Oh, that's a nice one.

• 44:25Speaker 02

  You know, there needs to be a progression if you're going to make people leave.

• 44:28Speaker 01

  Hospitality, exactly.

• 44:30Dan Pashman?

  Right, but Deena, at first you said hospitality, but then you said the people who camp out at the table that Mamri talked about are assholes. So where's the middle line between people who deserve hospitality and assholes?

• 44:41Speaker 01

  Well, I think that we should live in a decent society where people, there's a, there's an unspoken agreement that the restaurant is there to serve you and you as a human being and customer are going to treat the place and the people there with respect and dignity. And that means not lingering at a table for a half hour. And I just want to throw in, Mom, thank you so much for all those times you took me shopping.

• 45:09Dan Pashman?

  Final restaurant news topic. Is the restaurant good or does it just look good? The New York Times says more restaurants are prioritizing the vibes over the food, spending more money and time making the space appealing to people's Instagram feeds with bespoke wallpaper, branded t-shirts and hats and bright colors everywhere. Restaurant owners say that diners these days care as much or more about ambiance and branding as they do about the food.

• 45:35Speaker 02

  Hmm, I think that's an Instagram problem. I think that's if you're, if you're making reservations, so you know you can post something in your Instagram feed, then you don't care as much as the feed itself. Yeah, it's feed versus feed.

• 45:49Dan Pashman?

  Right, right. Get your feed straight.

• 45:50Speaker 02

  Exactly. But I think vibe is great, but it should never come at the expense of the food.

• 45:56Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, a hard agree.

• 45:57Speaker 02

  And if the vibe is too good, they're going to camp out at the table. It all goes together.

• 46:02Dan Pashman?

  I also, I think that there's the intentional part of this that some restaurant owners clearly from this article are saying, we're going to focus on the vibe, that's our priority. But I think that there's something else that happens, which is when a place, I feel like this is maybe this is more a situation where a restaurant is in a prime piece of real estate, like a waterfront restaurant. Those restaurants are often disappointing because they don't have to have great food because people will go there for the view. And so I'm always very skeptical of restaurants in beautiful settings. But like, there's sort of, I don't know, Deena, like, is there an economic pressure thing that happens? Like basically, if, if you have a great view or great vibes in your restaurant, And you know people are coming for that,

• 46:47Dan Pashman?

  then you aren't under the same pressure to make great food.

• 46:50Speaker 01

  I think, I feel like for, there was a while when you would talk to different restaurant owners and they were just like, ah, Instagram or, ah, Yelp. There was always like some online thing that was making their business harder. And then some places adjust and they do well and some don't. The article ended on a really interesting quote. It said, they have to have either like vibe, food, or service. You need two, you don't need all three. And so if you have vibe and sir, I mean, I can't imagine, who wants a restaurant with bad food?

• 47:28Dan Pashman?

  All right, well, thanks to my guest. Deena Shanker is a reporter for Bloomberg and Bloomberg Businessweek. And Mamri Hart is a comedian, actor, author, and podcaster. Her new book is All I Think About Is Food. Thank you very much, Deena and Mamri. Thank you. And thank you very much to all of you who are here at Sirius XM Studios who came out. Thank you all. Good night.

• 47:51Dan Pashman?

  Well, hey, let's just, the show's still going. Did you guys realize? Next week on the show is the jalapeno losing its heat. We look into it. While you wait for that one, check out last week's show about the rise of Jose Cuervo and the tequila wars that took place during the Mexican Revolution. All right, now you can cheer.

• 48:11Dan Pashman?

  And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the Sirius XM app? Yes, the Sirius XM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app, all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the Sirius XM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful. This episode was produced by me along with managing producer.

• 48:41Speaker 01

  Emma Morgenstern.

• 48:42Dan Pashman?

  And senior producer. Andres O'Hara. And producer. Manolo Morales. Our engineer is. Jared O'Connell. Music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of Stitcher Studios. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

• 48:55Speaker 05

  And I'm David from Buffalo, New York, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.

• 49:14Dan Pashman?

  My whole extended family and I went to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina this past spring. And I gotta say, I came away feeling like, number one, this is a great family destination. Number two, this is a great place to come all year round. The mini golf alone is probably worth, it's like the mini golf capital of the country. They have the most incredible elaborate mini golf courses. They also have more than 80 championship full-size golf courses, plus 60 miles of beautiful coastline, all-season sunshine. Of course, you can relax by the beach or the pool. There's also jet skiing, fishing charters, paddle boarding, and of course, food. Oh, man, did we eat well in Myrtle Beach. From fresh local seafood to craft burgers and craft beers to kebabs on the boardwalk. With more than 2,000 restaurants to choose from, from legendary no-frills seafood shacks

• 49:57Dan Pashman?

  to chef-driven dining, Myrtle Beach has it all. Plus, live entertainment at the beach, there's always something epic going on. So, summer may be winding down, but in Myrtle Beach, you're gonna find the coastal vacation of your dreams all year long. Start planning your ultimate beach vacation at visitmyrtlebeach.com.

• 50:14Speaker 06

  Time for a quick break to talk about McDonald's. Start your morning with the $6 Mcgriddle's Extra Value Meal, featuring your choice of a sausage, egg, and cheese Mcgriddle's or bacon, egg, and cheese Mcgriddle's, plus crispy hash browns and a small premium roast coffee. Sweet, savory, crispy, and caffeinated, it's everything your morning ordered, all for just $6. Promotion pricing may be lower than meal pricing at participating McDonald's.