The Lowdown

The Lowdown is a great new FX series starring Ethan Hawke as a freelance investigative reporter with a knack for sticking his nose where it doesn’t belong and getting that nose punched. He gets drawn into the seedy goings-on of one of Tulsa’s most prominent families. Created by Sterlin Harjo (Reservation Dogs), the modern-day Western noir comedy has an excellent ensemble including Kyle MacLachlan, Keith David, Jeanne Tripplehorn and Killer Mike. To access bonus episodes and sponsor-free listening for Pop Culture Happy Hour, subscribe to Pop Culture Happy Hour+ at plus.npr.org/happy. http://plus.npr.org/happy See pcm.adswizz.com https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences. NPR Privacy Policy https://www.npr.org/about-npr/179878450/privacy-policy

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:15Linda Holmes?

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• 0:46Speaker 02

  Whether you watched Reservation Dogs or just kept hearing from folks like us that it was one of the best things on TV, you'll want to know that its creator has a great new show. The Lowdown is a modern day, Western noir comedy. Ethan Hawke plays a freelance investigative reporter with a knack for sticking his nose where it doesn't belong and getting that nose punched.

• 1:06Linda Holmes?

  He gets drawn into the seedy goings on of one of Tulsa's most prominent families by following a trail of breadcrumbs, breadcrumbs in the form of notes left by one member of that family, whose death raises more questions than it answers. I'm Linda Holmes.

• 1:23Speaker 02

  And I'm Glen Weldon. This is NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour, and today, we're talking about FX's The Lowdown.

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• 3:06Speaker 02

  Joining us today is Soraya Nadia McDonald. She's a cultural critic, journalist and the senior criticism editor for The Rumpus. Welcome back, Soraya.

• 3:14Speaker 04

  Thank you for having me. Glad to be here.

• 3:16Speaker 02

  Glad to have you. Let's get to it. On the Lowdown, Ethan Hawke plays Lee, a grungy, self-styled Tulsa truth-storian who runs a used bookstore. His side hustle, though, is muckraking, publishing exposes of the city's corrupt business owners and politicians.

• 3:32Speaker 05

  I read stuff. I research stuff. I drive around and I find stuff. Then I write about stuff. Some people care, some people don't. I'm chronically unemployed, always broke. But let's just say that I am obsessed with the truth.

• 3:49Speaker 02

  One creep he's investigating is a gubernatorial candidate, played by Kyle McLaughlin, who's carrying on with his dead brother's wife, played by Gene Triplehorn. Lee also gets help from a mysterious figure who at least seems to have his interests at heart. He's played by Keith David, yay. Imagine if Elmore Leonard or Carl Hyacinth wrote about the modern West. That's pretty much the vibe. The Lowdown is airing on FX and streaming on Hulu. Linda, we've talked about this show before and know you like it. Why?

• 4:15Linda Holmes?

  Yeah, I really love this. I find it such a kind of an affable show to hang out with. I think that in addition to having a mystery that I find pretty compelling, you know, it starts off with the death of this character who's, you know, you don't, you wouldn't expect to see very much of him since he dies at the beginning, but he's played by Tim Blake Nelson and he does continue to make appearances as sort of a vision. And in that Tim Blake Nelson way kind of gives, imparts wisdom to Ethan Hawke and that part I really like. I'm prepared to acknowledge that Ethan Hawke is my favorite actor right now. And I think he is so incredibly tuned in to who this guy is. And you talked about him being a truth story and which is the kind of thing that when he says that, it could so easily just turn you against him.

• 4:59Linda Holmes?

  But you realize that he really does mean it. He gets himself in trouble constantly, but he really is trying to get the truth out about various things. And his entrance in this, the first time you see him, he's kind of walking down the sidewalk. He's got a vape pen. He's got his cowboy hat. Immediately I just felt so confident that I understood this guy. And I think Ethan Hawke understands him too. There's a chunk of the second episode that he spends sort of in disguise because he's been in a fight and he's trying to keep people from finding out that he's in a fight. And he goes into a convenience store and says to the young woman who's working there.

• 5:37Speaker 05

  I'll give you a thousand dollars for those shades, this hat and a brief makeup tutorial.

• 5:47Linda Holmes?

  So he ends up spending a good chunk of that episode in a trucker hat that says Big Rig, a pair of blingy hexagonal sunglasses. And it's so funny to me just every time I look at him. I took both like, I think story pleasure, but also a lot of just the vibe of this. I think vibe is going to be a very

• 6:07Speaker 02

  Vibe pleasure, yes.

• 6:09Linda Holmes?

  Yes. Vibe is going to be a very big word with this show, but that's just because the vibe of it is so good.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  Soraya, you're nodding along to the word vibe. Tell me more, say more.

• 6:18Speaker 04

  Oh, yes. Ethan Hawke is tremendously responsible. Responsible with the way he fills out this character. I really like seeing him in these kind of scruffy roles where he's getting himself into dubious situations. And also, I think the roles that sort of allow him to dig into fatherhood lately, I think have just been a pleasure to watch him and to sort of move with him through these stories. But the other thing that I really liked about The Low Down is just the world that Sterling Harjo has created in Oklahoma.

• 6:54Speaker 02

  That's the showrunner, yeah.

• 6:55Speaker 04

  It feels very complete. The way he's using mise en scène, the way that feels almost like a very literary television show, not in a pretentious way.

• 7:07Linda Holmes?

  Right, right, right.

• 7:08Speaker 04

  I love that you mentioned Elmore Leonard because I think one of the names that I had written down was Larry McMurtry.

• 7:14Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 7:14Speaker 04

  But also the Coen Brothers, right, Fargo. It kind of has all those, those elements together. And I love, it just has an abundance of memorable lines and phrases that you just kind of want to steep in, like you can't help but giggle. You know, there's one character who's a real estate agent who someone refers to as a cooch mouse.

• 7:43Linda Holmes?

  And I think that Keith David and Killer Mike, because Killer Mike is also in this.

• 7:46Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 7:47Linda Holmes?

  I think Keith David and Killer Mike maybe both say the thing about there's nothing worse than a white man who cares.

• 7:52Speaker 04

  Oh, yes.

• 7:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:56Speaker 04

  So it's, it's not self-serious. You can feel the way that I think Sterling thinks of Oklahoma as a home and all of the weird eclectic characters that emerge in a place that feels like a small town. And honestly, you know, in some cases, it feels kind of desolate.

• 8:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:19Speaker 04

  The way he has the pilot in particular structured that allows you to get lost in this story that is clearly set in modern day America, right? But it doesn't have. Of that glossiness, very much rooted in what is happening around this guy, in the environment around this guy, and this collection of characters that you have all these wonderful actors just making a meal of. They feel like character actors. It's not primed for Instagram, if that makes any sense. You know, it's gritty, but it's funny. And I think all of those things just just come together really well.

• 8:59Speaker 02

  Sterling Harjo, who created this show, he was the co-creator of Reservation Dogs with Taika Waititi. He has said in interviews that Reservation Dogs was his love letter to rural Oklahoma, where he grew up. And this show is his love letter to Tulsa, where he lives now. I would not describe this love letter as particularly besotted. You know what I mean? This is not a, I wouldn't want to get this love letter. I mean, I love this show. I love the tone of it, as we've all talked about, the cast, which we will talk about. But that grittiness that you talked about, Soraya, the kind of sunbaked grunge of it all. You know, I like the look of this series. I don't think the Tulsa tourist board does, because it's just so flat and brown and dry and unrelentingly bright. You keep wanting to tell these characters to put on sunblock. I mean, my God.

• 9:44Linda Holmes?

  Yeah, but there are people who like, when they look at this, they're going to be like, that's the only place I want to be. I want to be in a place where that's what the people are like, and that's what the places that you drink beer are like. And in that sense, it is, you know, I think, loving.

• 9:57Speaker 02

  It's home. It's loving. We've talked a lot about Hawk. Let's talk some more. I mean, his take on this guy is what makes the show. Like, Lee obviously thinks he's the coolest guy in the room, and everyone knows he thinks that. And everyone knows he's also light years from being the coolest guy in the room. At one point, a character describes him as peacocking. And that kind of clicked for me, because like, he has this weird physicality, this awkward physicality, kind of bird-like, maybe. He is desperation made flesh. He is like, what if vaping were a person? You know, he's a raw nerve, and that's always compelling. But it didn't click for me for a while. I was like, there's something I'm missing about this character. And then, episode five, he makes a David Foster Wallace reference. And I was like, click, there it is. I know this guy.

• 10:41Linda Holmes?

  Well, and he has a bookstore. He deals in rare books. So you know, he's a book guy. Also a truth story.

• 10:50Speaker 02

  Also a truth story. The reason I mentioned Elmore Leonard at the top is that this kind of slides neatly into the mode of the criminals here are very, very dumb. But that doesn't make them harmless. That makes them even more dangerous. It makes them a lot more unpredictable and a lot volatile. There is occasionally to the show a quirkiness to some of the characters that we meet, including some caviar farmers. And that kind of quirkiness, depending on the show that surrounds it, it can come off as kind of precious and twee, which is why I like the show. Goes as hard as it does and is as gritty as it is because there's nothing precious about this show. Nothing twee.

• 11:31Linda Holmes?

  It's one of those shows, and I think Reservation Dogs was like this too, that is very well serialized, right? Particularly regarding this longer story about the family that he's investigating and all that stuff. But they're also very good at making an episode that stands as an episode and is sort of like, this is the episode where blah. You know, there's an episode a little bit later where Peter Dinklage shows up as like an old friend of his. And by the end of that episode, they have built such a rich relationship between those two guys. I have watched seasons of television that have not built as much between two characters. As they build between those two characters in a single episode.

• 12:11Linda Holmes?

  And so you get that pleasurable feeling from really good television where, yes, there's a continuing story. Yes, there's a mystery, but you also get every time you start a new episode, a little bit of like, what's this gonna be? Cause you're maybe gonna get a new person or you're maybe gonna get a new story. That helps with what you're talking about, Glenn, because. If the caviar farmers recurred, you know, over the course of the entire thing, you might find it to be a little too cute. Whereas stuff like, there are two guys that Lee hires to be security who sit outside his store, and they're terrible at it, and they're not security at all. But the fact that they don't show up very often is, I think, what makes that gag work.

• 12:55Linda Holmes?

  You only see them occasionally, and practically every time you see them, it's because he's saying to them, what are you doing? Like, you're supposed to be security, and I got kidnapped off the street next to my own van. And I think because they're not in it that much, the kind of quirkiness of it doesn't great.

• 13:11Speaker 04

  And he's also so wonderfully hapless. And he's surrounded by people who don't allow him to take himself too seriously.

• 13:22Speaker 02

  That's important.

• 13:23Speaker 04

  You've got a line like, you know, when he's talking about this expose that he's published, you know, to someone, and he's like, it's a real page turner. It's only two pages.

• 13:35Linda Holmes?

  Wrote him a lot of great dialogue in this.

• 13:36Speaker 02

  Or, you know, he writes for a long form magazine, and then somebody says, you mean the zine?

• 13:40Speaker 04

  Right.

• 13:41Speaker 02

  And it's like, he takes over at that.

• 13:43Linda Holmes?

  And he's very sensitive about, like, it's not a newspaper, it's a long form magazine, and...

• 13:48Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 13:48Speaker 04

  This is a guy who walks down the street, right? He always looks like he smells.

• 13:54Speaker 02

  Definitely.

• 13:55Linda Holmes?

  I think it's important to me with this character that, as goofy as he is and as hapless as he is, I think they also very convincingly demonstrate that he loves his daughter very much. He's not somebody who is constantly, you know, disappointing and ignoring his kid, and she loves him anyway, and that's the sad thing about it. He really loves his kid. She sort of wants to be part of what he's doing a little bit, and, you know, she's sort of fascinated by him. They have a good relationship that he really means.

• 14:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:25Linda Holmes?

  And I think that helps a lot.

• 14:28Speaker 05

  Scared? Yeah, of course, all the time. Some things are scary. Usually really important things. What are you scared of? Oh, come. You're not worried about me.

• 14:40Speaker 02

  I think that is one of the more interesting things about the show, one of the more nuanced things about the show, which I did not expect because the stuff with the daughter Frances, who is played by Ryan Kira Armstrong, she's great. I was fully prepared to check my phone during those scenes because I am a cynical person and I always believe that you put family stuff into action shows and movies because you're trying to make the main character more believable, to give them something they care about, to be a potential hostage. That's kind of what, that's my take.

• 15:05Linda Holmes?

  Fair point.

• 15:05Speaker 02

  I think the relationship is so fascinating because Lee is an obsessive who really loves Frances, but he's not equipped to deal with her because he is so self-righteously driven by what he sees as his big purpose. That people he loves keep getting tossed aside, not because he tosses them aside, but because his drive causes things to happen to him like getting thrown in car trunks. And what I like about the show, my favorite thing actually about the show, and this surprised me, is that fully imagines what that would do to a kid. Frances has had to learn that you can't count on her dad for emotional stuff, but you can count on him for fun, adventure. That's how they bond. Now, she is meeting him on his terms, right? He's not extending himself very much. He's still trapped in his obsession.

• 15:45Speaker 02

  But she's grown up fast and she knows that if she wants a relationship with him, she's gonna have to meet him where he is. That is just way more interesting. It's much better writing than if she were just the sweet, loving kid you you mentioned, Lyndes, because now she's a real person. Now she's not just a plot point, just a potential hostage, but she's something he bounces off of.

• 16:02Linda Holmes?

  Right.

• 16:02Speaker 04

  And she's also, I think this character clearly like very smart, right? Like I think you can see what Lee sees of himself in her as well. Astuteness, thinking on your feet, observational skills, right? That she's clearly like picked up from hanging out with him.

• 16:22Linda Holmes?

  Yeah.

• 16:22Speaker 04

  That are also starting to emerge and show up in her own habits and her own personality.

• 16:29Linda Holmes?

  I do just want to shout out, like, in addition to her, I mean, think about all the names that we've already dropped in this discussion of people who go by and just, we've seen the first five episodes of this show. You know, we've mentioned Keith David and Kyle McLaughlin and Gene Triplehorn and Killer Mike and Tim Blake Nelson and Tracy Letts, who shows up very early in a meeting and you're like, is that racist, Tracy Letts? And, and it is. There are so many moments in this where I like the performances so much. They just keep surrounding him with such interesting people. There's a performance I really like from Michael Hitchcock, who Yes. If Michael Hitchcock doesn't immediately sound like somebody you know, when you see him, you'll go, oh, God, Mike, right, yes, I do know him. Playing a kind of a rival antiques

• 17:13Linda Holmes?

  dealer, because, because Lee sells and deals in rare books, so he's got this relationship with this guy.

• 17:19Speaker 06

  I can give you 15 hundred.

• 17:21Speaker 05

  Okay, but sell it to a super cool gallery, like, like one of the nice ones, you know, don't sell it to these cheesy white guys.

• 17:27Speaker 06

  Believe me, I had all the good stuff whenever they come.

• 17:31Speaker 05

  You know, that, or I tell them that it was previously owned by a drag queen.

• 17:35Linda Holmes?

  I'm so happy to be seeing Gene Triplehorn and stuff again. She's really good in this. She gets a lot to do. She's one of those people where you don't really know exactly how to take her and who she is, and you don't know exactly where they're going with who she is, which is exactly what you want. I feel like every time you poke your head out, there are new, interesting people, which is a real compliment to a show where I think the central performances are the strong. You know, I think certain moments, absolutely, the performance as Lee is, is a big performance, right? There's a moment early in the show where he kind of escapes danger and comes bounding out of an enclosed space. He looks very wild and it's very over the top and funny, right? But there are other times when it is like Ethan Hawke

• 18:20Linda Holmes?

  acting, you know? It's a great central performance. And so just a lot of people, I think, to be really happy to see Killer Mike's really funny in this.

• 18:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, there, I mean, I was surprised to see Tisha Campbell pop up.

• 18:32Linda Holmes?

  Yeah.

• 18:32Speaker 04

  Like, it really makes use of like this wonderful sort of collection of actors. The women in this show, they're age appropriate, like the actresses themselves, you know, which again, I was like going back to that sort of lack of glossiness and embracing people as people, people you would, you feel like you would actually run into in Tulsa. It's got that quality about it, I think, that that also made claws, you know, like a fun show.

• 19:05Speaker 04

  But wrapped in that knowledge and familiarity that Sterling has because he's actually from the place. The tempo of it, the tone of it, the vibe, right?

• 19:16Linda Holmes?

  I feel like we should mention too, you know, we've talked about a lot of influences, your Coen Brothers and your Elmore Leonard and Carl Heisen and stuff like that. There is one episode where Walter Mosley has a writing credit. That is another one that makes perfect sense to me as an influence, like that sounds right, you know? I think there's just a lot of good DNA in the writing of this that I am delighted to see.

• 19:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, and like that Dinklage, it's not just the performance, it's the writing of that Dinklage character. That is what the guest appearance in a comedy Emmy category is for. We're gonna see his name. Again, they're gonna put this in as a comedy, right? It can't be a drama.

• 19:56Linda Holmes?

  I don't know. I don't know. This is FX, you know what they did with the bear.

• 20:00Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 20:01Speaker 04

  And yet this one is an hour long instead of half hour. Yeah, it really is, oh, man, it's up in the air.

• 20:07Speaker 02

  That is an interesting question. Watch this space.

• 20:09Speaker 04

  I will say, like every time Keith David is in a scene, I feel like, you know, my back just kind of straightens up a little bit as soon as you hear his voice. Like, you just can't help yourself. You just kind of lean in a little more.

• 20:22Speaker 05

  Our sweetest songs are those that tell of the saddest thought.

• 20:26Speaker 02

  If nothing else, you think this show has a good casting director.

• 20:30Linda Holmes?

  Yeah.

• 20:30Speaker 02

  At least they know what they're doing.

• 20:31Linda Holmes?

  Absolutely.

• 20:32Speaker 02

  Well, it's pretty unanimous. You've probably picked up on that, but we want to know what you think about the lowdown. We're on Facebook, which is kind of a long-form magazine, if you think about it. And that brings us to the end of our show. Soraya Nady-McDonald, Linda Holmes, thank you so much for being here.

• 20:46Linda Holmes?

  Thank you, bud.

• 20:47Speaker 04

  Thank you. Always a pleasure.

• 20:49Speaker 02

  And just a reminder that signing up for Pop Culture Happy Hour Plus is a great way to support our show and public radio, and you get to listen to all of our episodes sponsor-free. So please go find out more at plus.npr.org/happyhour, or visit the link in our show notes. This episode was produced by Liz Metzger, Carly Rubin, and Mike Katz have been edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy, and Halok Min provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Glen Weldon, and we'll see you all next time.

• 21:19Speaker 00

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