108: How to Stand Up to Bad New Leadership. How to Deal with Boss Not Listening to Feedback. Apologizing Shows Weakness? And A Chance to Say Goodbye.

0:00:00 - Opeing 0:09:07 - How to stand up to new leadership when you don't like their attitude. 0:21:01 - Clarification on the expression, "If there's a doubt, there is no doubt." 0:26:19 - Should Other martial arts belts carry over in any way to Jiu Jitsu belts? 0:30:50 - How to take ownership of your boss not listening to your feedback. 0:44:54 - Should you take up Jiu Jitsu in Your 40s when You're already well into Other Martial Arts? 1:03:08 - How to implement Extreme Ownership when the blame falls to you anyway (because of your low rank). 1:14:51 - Does Apologizing show weakness? 1:20:01 - Should you stand down if another team member is showing better leadership than you? 1:25:24 - Support: JockoStore http://www.jockostore.com stuff, Super Krill Oil and Joint Warfare and Discipline Pre-Mission http://originmaine.com/origin-labs/jocko/, THE MUSTER 005 in DC http://www.extremeownership.com/washington-dc-005. Origin Brand Apparel and Jocko Gi http://www.originmaine.com, withJocko White Tea http://www.jockotea.com, Onnit Fitness stuff, http://www.onnit.com/jocko and Psychological Warfare (on iTunes) https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/psychological-warfare/id1183222322. Extreme Ownership (book) http://amzn.to/2jonHTx, The Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. http://amzn.to/2szgaEj 1:49:55 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 108 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo.

• 0:08Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:13Jocko Willink?

  Goodbye.

• 0:17Jocko Willink?

  You do not get to say goodbye.

• 0:23Jocko Willink?

  That is the way it goes in this line of work. You do not get to say goodbye.

• 0:34Jocko Willink?

  One day, your friend is there. Your brother.

• 0:43Jocko Willink?

  Your shared experiences and shared pain and shared thoughts.

• 0:52Jocko Willink?

  One day, your friend is there to share those things.

• 1:01Jocko Willink?

  And then they're gone.

• 1:06Jocko Willink?

  Of course, we think we are all going to live forever.

• 1:18Jocko Willink?

  And then

• 1:22Jocko Willink?

  by the bullet, or the bomb, or the ocean, or the sky.

• 1:33Jocko Willink?

  They are gone.

• 1:39Jocko Willink?

  The memories are there.

• 1:48Jocko Willink?

  But they are not enough.

• 1:54Jocko Willink?

  They are not enough because the story was not complete.

• 2:04Jocko Willink?

  There was more.

• 2:09Jocko Willink?

  There was so much more and now there is not.

• 2:16Jocko Willink?

  And there cannot be.

• 2:23Jocko Willink?

  And I did not say goodbye.

• 2:30Jocko Willink?

  Not once.

• 2:35Jocko Willink?

  I did not get to tell you the things I should have told you.

• 2:41Jocko Willink?

  I did not say the words.

• 2:48Jocko Willink?

  Not even a "thank you."

• 2:53Jocko Willink?

  But you knew.

• 2:58Jocko Willink?

  Because as I knew,

• 3:02Jocko Willink?

  you knew.

• 3:06Jocko Willink?

  And that is good.

• 3:10Jocko Willink?

  And I am thankful.

• 3:18Jocko Willink?

  But we did not finish the story.

• 3:24Jocko Willink?

  The story was not yet complete.

• 3:35Jocko Willink?

  So now,

• 3:39Jocko Willink?

  I finish it alone.

• 3:44Jocko Willink?

  I'll do my best,

• 3:48Jocko Willink?

  but the story will fall short

• 3:53Jocko Willink?

  without you in it.

• 3:58Jocko Willink?

  But I'll do my best.

• 4:03Jocko Willink?

  I will.

• 4:11Jocko Willink?

  One last thing.

• 4:14Jocko Willink?

  Thank you.

• 4:19Jocko Willink?

  And goodbye.

• 4:34Jocko Willink?

  And I wrote down those words thinking about a question that I got asked. The question was, "As an operator, I know you lost many brothers."

• 4:48Jocko Willink?

  I lost my wife to cancer.

• 4:52Jocko Willink?

  My question is, "How do you deal with the inevitable flashbacks and the toughest moments?"

• 5:00Jocko Willink?

  For me, it would be the hospital visits, emergency ambulance rides, or the moment of her passing, which I was at her side for.

• 5:17Jocko Willink?

  I struggle a bit as those memories continue to rise to the surface.

• 5:25Jocko Willink?

  Thank you for any advice you can offer.

• 5:32Jocko Willink?

  And my advice was, "Yes."

• 5:38Jocko Willink?

  This does happen. You will have flashbacks of those tough moments.

• 5:47Jocko Willink?

  And you will lose control sometimes.

• 5:52Jocko Willink?

  And you will break down, and that is the way it is, and that is the way it will be.

• 6:02Jocko Willink?

  And as you process the loss and you adapt to this new reality,

• 6:09Jocko Willink?

  the breakdowns will become less frequent.

• 6:17Jocko Willink?

  And you'll learn somewhat to control them.

• 6:24Jocko Willink?

  But they won't go away completely.

• 6:30Jocko Willink?

  Ever.

• 6:34Jocko Willink?

  And that's okay.

• 6:38Jocko Willink?

  Because they will be a reminder of what you do have.

• 6:47Jocko Willink?

  Life.

• 6:53Jocko Willink?

  So live it.

• 6:58Jocko Willink?

  And that's one of the hardest things for the losses that are suffered in my old profession.

• 7:08Jocko Willink?

  There was never any kind of goodbye, at least not a spoken one.

• 7:16Jocko Willink?

  Because even though it wasn't spoken, underneath it was there.

• 7:24Jocko Willink?

  We lived it. We said goodbye every day in how we lived, in how we trusted, in how we gave.

• 7:39Jocko Willink?

  That's the brotherhood.

• 7:45Jocko Willink?

  So to all of you out there that have lost one of your comrades in arms,

• 7:53Jocko Willink?

  even though you might not have gotten to say goodbye,

• 7:59Jocko Willink?

  even though you may not have told them what they meant to you,

• 8:07Jocko Willink?

  don't worry.

• 8:12Jocko Willink?

  They knew.

• 8:17Jocko Willink?

  They knew.

• 8:20Jocko Willink?

  And you know.

• 8:24Jocko Willink?

  It's gonna be okay.

• 8:33Jocko Willink?

  So,

• 8:35Jocko Willink?

  like I said, that was a question I got and just wanted to offer some perspective

• 8:45Jocko Willink?

  that I unfortunately do have.

• 8:51Jocko Willink?

  But speaking of questions, Echo, it's Q and A day.

• 8:56Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 8:57Jocko Willink?

  And I know we got some, a few questions, a few more questions here to go through.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:05Jocko Willink?

  Let's hit it.

• 9:06Speaker 01

  All right, will do. All right, first question. I'm a young officer, platoon commander. I deployed late. By the time I arrived on deployment, there had been some problems and my company commander had been sent back to the States and the company first sergeant had been redeployed to another country. Now there's a new company commander and new first sergeant. They are treating all the soldiers in my platoon and in the entire company as if we are all messed up. I don't like their attitude and my gut tells me they're out to make themselves look good by crucifying more people in the platoons. I want to take care of my soldiers. How do I best stand up to the new leadership?

• 9:50Jocko Willink?

  All right, so

• 9:53Jocko Willink?

  I would say the best way that you can take care of your soldiers is not to stand up to the new leadership, but instead to build a relationship with the new leadership. You know, if you confront them, you confront the new leadership that's taken over, automatically they're going to see you as the enemy, right? They're going to see whoever got sent home for whatever reason. Maybe there was some kind of a problem, maybe there was, yeah, there's definitely some kind of a problem. Someone got in trouble. Something happened bad. That's why guys are getting sent out of country or back to the States. If you confront the new leadership, that means you're on the bad guy's side. That's not where you want to be.

• 10:32Jocko Willink?

  Because if you're on the bad side, if you're on the bad list, then they're not going to listen to you. They're not going to trust you and they're going to be suspect of you and of your soldiers. So, so that is not confrontation and this is not going to be helpful. What you want to do is if you can build a relationship with them, if you can try and understand their perspective, which is important, because they don't know, you get, you get put into a position where you're taken over for a quote unquote, bad boss, or a bad platoon, or a bad company. You don't know what the specific problems are, so you're pretty suspect on everything and you kinda have to be. So that's their perspective. Their perspective is like, yeah, we don't know what's going on in here. All we know is something bad happened. They fired the last company commander.

• 11:17Jocko Willink?

  They fired the last company first sergeant. Something bad happened here. I don't know what it is, but I'm not gonna let it happen to me. So I'm suspect of everything. So to understand that perspective. And then listen to what they're saying. Try and give them some kind of support, right? Try and gain their trust.

• 11:35Jocko Willink?

  So that way they will listen to you and they will start to believe you. And then you will be in a protect, in a position where you can actually protect the soldiers, right? If you get fired, you're not protecting your soldiers. If you go, go, I'm gonna stand up for you guys. Don't worry about it. You going, hey, you guys, you treat my soldiers bad. Oh, really? You're fired. Now who's taking care of your soldiers?

• 11:57Jocko Willink?

  So be careful of that. Now, you could be, also be right. And these guys could be really, really bad. They could be out for themselves, out to make themselves look good. And if that is the case, well, it still remains that the best possible thing you can do for your soldiers is to develop a relationship with these guys. And make sure that as they're trying to make themselves look good, you protect your soldiers as much as you can.

• 12:23Jocko Willink?

  And if they end up being good guys, right, that were just like I said, just had a, coming into a bad situation. Well, then you've got an opportunity, then you form a relationship with them and, and as you get through that, then you, on their good side, you're, you're good to go that way as well. Now, this is where people get a little freaked out, right? Because, because I'm sitting here and I'm saying you gotta play the game, right? People think I'm saying, hey, like you need to brown nose.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 12:48Jocko Willink?

  Be fake. Yeah. Hey, here's the deal. I'm not talking about that. I'm not talking about brown nosing. I'm talking about being professional. I'm talking about being respectful. I'm talking about being humble. That's what I'm talking about. I'm talking about understanding their perspective.

• 13:08Jocko Willink?

  I'm not talking about brown nosing, I'm talking, those things, that's not how you build relationships. And by the way, you don't build relationships through brown nosing either. Wait, if you just try and brown nose people, they, they don't respect you. That does, that's not how you build relationships. You don't build relationships through brown nosing. All you do is submit.

• 13:27Jocko Willink?

  You don't build anything. You're just, you're just on the receive side. But if you're respectful and you're humble and you're professional, that's how you build relationships. And the better relationships you have up the chain of command, the better you can take care of the people below you in the chain of command. That's the way it works. Of course, this doesn't mean you're okay if your superiors are doing something that's illegal, immoral, or unethical. Or, or if they're putting your troops or the mission in danger, right? They, we're not playing the game. We're not playing the game. Now, you might still even then have to play the game. If you were my boss Echo and you were like, hey, I want you to send your guys to run,

• 14:09Jocko Willink?

  attack that bunker on the elevated position right there, enemy bunker with a, with a machine, multiple machine guns in it, with interlocking fields of fire.

• 14:18Jocko Willink?

  And I'm like, we're not doing, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Now, if I tell you, I will not do it. And you say, okay, fine, you're fired. You come here, you take the platoon and go attack. And now that guy does, and they all get killed. Maybe what I should have done was like, hey Echo, we shouldn't do that. It's not a good plan. And you go, no, you do it anyways. I go, hey, that's not a good plan. And you say, go do it, or I'm gonna fire you. Okay, I'll go, I'll go do it. And now when you do it, you go out and you flank, you do something different. You know what I mean? You make something happen. You mitigate the damage as much as possible. So you, that's, that's a decision you're gonna have to make. That's why being a leader is hard. Cause that's a really hard decision to make right there.

• 15:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's a tough one.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  Yes, I remember at the muster, last muster.

• 15:07Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  You're talking about like that, that very thing like you, you, you build a relationship with them and you know, some people every once in a while, I'm paraphrasing kind of what you said, where some people will look at it as brown nosing.

• 15:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 15:21Speaker 01

  And you're like, but it's you build a relationship with them every once in a while, you might brush.

• 15:28Jocko Willink?

  You might brush up against it.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  Some, you know, every once in a while, then I'll come back or whatever, but, um, but the mission is worth that. You know, if I got a brush up against brown nosing just for a second to accomplish the mission or whatever, then that's what I'm going to do kind of thing. And that's what a good leader does. I was like, yeah, man, that makes, that makes good sense. And really, so when I thought about that, I was like, well, really what that is, is a lack of perspective or people forgetting about the big picture.

• 15:53Jocko Willink?

  Right. You're forgetting what the big overall thing is. We're here to win.

• 15:55Speaker 01

  We're here to win. Yes.

• 15:56Jocko Willink?

  And if I gotta, if I gotta tell this guy, he's got, you know, that's a great plan, sir.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:01Jocko Willink?

  That you've, you come up with some brilliant plans, sir. I'm going to go and execute that thing so that he says, oh, see, Jocko gets it. And I'm going to go let him execute on his own. I'm not going to bother him because he, because he understands my planning.

• 16:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:10Jocko Willink?

  And then I go back to my guys and I go, hey, here's what we're doing. A little different from what the boss said, but don't worry. His intention was there. I'm not talking bad about the boss. But like, hey, this is what the boss want to do. I think this is how we're going to get, get it done.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:20Jocko Willink?

  Don't talk bad about your boss. You just say, we're making some adjustments based on his guidance. You actually give him credit.

• 16:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:26Jocko Willink?

  That's how you get it done. You brushing up against brown nosing a little bit. But again, if you're just a full on brown noser, you're not developing relationships. You're just, you're just an ass kisser and it's not going to go good for you.

• 16:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:37Jocko Willink?

  You, because, because think about this, think about this, here's why. And I just thought of this myself. Here's why a brown noser isn't developing a relationship. And here, here's how it's not good to just be a brown noser. Does the superior listen to the brown noser? Does he respect their opinion? No, not really.

• 16:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:56Jocko Willink?

  He's just looking at him like, oh yeah, he's just, oh yeah, that's old, old Echo. Yep.

• 16:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:59Jocko Willink?

  Hey buddy. Yep.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:01Jocko Willink?

  Yep. You can do whatever I say. Nice little yes, man. Cool.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:04Jocko Willink?

  You give me input. I'm like, oh, thanks, Echo. That's great. Thank you. Now, hey, the big boys are over here trying to talk. Can you, can you just excuse yourself? You know, you don't want to end up like that.

• 17:12Speaker 01

  You're kind of the guy who like. You know, like the iconic picture of the guy fanning the other guy.

• 17:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  Grapes. You're like, that guy cool to have around.

• 17:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:21Speaker 01

  But yeah, man.

• 17:22Jocko Willink?

  But he's not giving any strategic input on the operations.

• 17:24Speaker 01

  Not building the relations.

• 17:26Jocko Willink?

  So, yeah, build a relationship, man. Don't confront. Build.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think we're distracted by that, right? The feeling you get when this new guy comes, he did, I don't like the way he said that to me, even though what he said was really important. I don't like the way he said it.

• 17:42Jocko Willink?

  You know what's interesting is when a lot of leadership books that we've discussed and a lot of leadership guidance will say if you're a new leader coming in, you just don't start barking orders, right? You just don't start saying, hey, do this, we're changing that. You assess and you look around and you make sure. Now, occasionally this doesn't happen. There's things that happen if you're taking over a totally messed up unit or team, then you might have to go in there and lay down some law. But generally, you come in and you assess and you make, then you see what's wrong and you see where some adjustments could be made. Now, think about that from the other side, from down the chain of command. You also shouldn't jump to conclusions and be like, oh, the new boss is an idiot or the new boss has this plan. No, you should be like, okay, let's see what his plan is.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:21Jocko Willink?

  You should both have a little period of like a, like a, like a cooling down period.

• 18:28Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 18:29Jocko Willink?

  But a warming up period.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  Sure, yeah.

• 18:31Jocko Willink?

  The opposite of a cooling down. It's a warming up. It's getting to know each other.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  This is way out of left field, but.

• 18:39Jocko Willink?

  Big shocker.

• 18:41Speaker 01

  So Greg, back in time, he'd, he made this one comment where he was explaining like how he rolled with like somebody, some famous person. And like he rolled, I was like, oh yeah, like, how was that? You know, you know how you want the full report? Like, how was it really? I forget who it was, but he was like, he's like, no, it was a full on, you know, first date role.

• 19:01Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  But and I didn't never heard that before. I didn't know exactly what that meant. It was like, I'm not going to go hard in the paint right off the bat. He, I can feel he's not going hard and it's just kind of feeling out, you know, and a lot of respect throughout the whole thing.

• 19:15Jocko Willink?

  Level does that start at in jujitsu?

• 19:17Speaker 01

  What do you mean?

• 19:17Jocko Willink?

  Like what, what, how good do you have to be in jujitsu before you start like having a little? Nice gentle. I, you know what I call is just respectful.

• 19:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:27Jocko Willink?

  Like, like here's an example. You just don't dive on the ankle lock.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:34Jocko Willink?

  Two seconds into rolling. It's like, oh, really?

• 19:36Speaker 01

  Brawling hard.

• 19:37Jocko Willink?

  I mean, I've had that happen. And then, and then I've had to, you know, take appropriate. Call them measures.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  Right. And you see, and you know that, and that's the whole reason for the first date role, really. Because it's like, you know, you start to roll the guy you've heard of him and he's heard of you and or whatever, whatever the situation is. And you guys roll and in your mind, you're kind of like, hey, I'm going to give this guy some respect. And he doesn't, he goes all out first thing is kind of like, you kind of got, you got offended a little bit, not majorly. But there's that little inkling of, oh, all right. It's something. It's not nothing, it's something. But compared to just some dude, you know, let's say we're all training some dude, some new person, whatever in the gym and you guys are all going hard. It's all good. You're going hard.

• 20:17Jocko Willink?

  I notice like, like basically purple belts, they're coming at me.

• 20:24Jocko Willink?

  Brown belts and black belts, you know, it's all cool.

• 20:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:26Jocko Willink?

  You know, it's like mutual respect and we'll roll. I'm not saying we, and I'm not saying don't roll hard and I'm not saying you don't escalate. Cause as you get to going, you know, like things escalate and all that's, you know, you get to know each other now it's okay to, to get after it a little bit.

• 20:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:37Jocko Willink?

  That's a weird, that's a weird little unwritten thing in jujitsu, isn't it? Like, I don't really. I guess it's just respect.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think.

• 20:45Jocko Willink?

  Just respect. So yeah, do that up and down the chain of command too.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:48Jocko Willink?

  A little respect.

• 20:49Speaker 01

  It's that first date, like period, like how you said that period.

• 20:52Jocko Willink?

  Let's get to know a little warming up period.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  Warming up, warming up period. Yeah, exactly.

• 20:56Jocko Willink?

  Give your bosses that slack.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully. All respect, all nice, you know? Next question, Jocko, I got a question regarding the quote. If there is a doubt, there's no doubt. Oh, right. I remember that from, yeah, the last time. Okay, this would seem to indicate avoiding taking risks. Many, many businesses or many business decisions involve risk. Often there can be a doubt about either of two options. Doubt that you should maintain the status quo and doubt about pursuing a new opportunity. To frequent, or you frequently talk about dichotomies. Would you mind sharing your thoughts on this principle?

• 21:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, this is, this is a classic. Thing and and it's a great point and that's why these little sound bites can be a little bit dangerous sometime with these little little power sound bites because they are that simple and of course I love I like things to be simple right that's the number two law of combat is to keep things simple but sometimes things like this need a little bit of amplifying information and yes this could be construed as being extremely risk averse and like hey if I have any doubt about the safety or the success of this mission that we're not going to do it which if that was the case then I would have done zero missions during my deployments to Iraq

• 22:13Jocko Willink?

  same with business never would have started victory MMA never would have started Echelon Front because there was risk involved in starting those things never would have done anything really because there's always going to be doubt so this is a accurate statement and of course every business has risk and so so I guess that idea that if there is a doubt there is no doubt is not to be taken literally when it comes to risk when it comes to risk don't take it literally but what it should be I think is like a a warning right like a little warning that's in your head i- if there's a doubt like okay we need to think about what's going on here we need to understand what what is at risk here because and I just had this conversation with

• 22:58Jocko Willink?

  the CEO of a company as a matter of fact I was talking about the dichotomy of leadership and I was talking about you know giving him examples I was like for instance in and he was in a technology company and I said you know if you didn't take risk you wouldn't you wouldn't make any progress but if you took too much risk you wouldn't be where you are right now because they're dominating so it's like oh you're you're balancing that dichotomy all the time so if he would have said hey if there's a doubt there is no doubt he never would have gotten off the ground now where I think it becomes a more solid statement is from like a moral or an ethical standpoint and that is if you think that something is wrong well then it probably is if you think you're doing something that you probably shouldn't be doing then there's doubt and you probably

• 23:42Jocko Willink?

  shouldn't be doing it I think an easy way to keep yourself in check And these days it's a very real possibility. It's just if you think that you're being recorded at all times. Like if you just think, oh, I'm being recorded, which probably somebody is recording you.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:56Jocko Willink?

  Like if you decide you think you can get away with something, you're probably not going to get away with it. Look at all the, just go watch YouTube. You know, caught in the act or whatever. People get caught all the time. So whatever you're doing, think that there could be somebody there with a phone recording you. And I think that's, keeps you morally and ethically in check. You know, I used to tell my guys that you could be getting watched by CNN or Al Jazeera or some report, you know, whoever. You, you know, you could be getting watched. And if you're doing something that you shouldn't be doing, you're, you're going to get caught. So don't do it. Not to mention these days, we got the aircraft overhead. They can see everything. So do the right thing. That's what you do. You do the right thing.

• 24:37Jocko Willink?

  If you have any doubt that what you're doing is the right thing, then you should probably shouldn't do it. A lot of those, a lot of the horrible police actions.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:47Jocko Willink?

  Are, you know, recorded by some random person with a phone. Now, of course, I, I always need to point out that there's all these good actions that take place every single day. Millions and millions of police doing the right thing.

• 24:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:59Jocko Willink?

  No one publishes those. No one uploads those onto YouTube or Facebook. But the bad acts that are caught, they're caught because someone has a camera. And so like, that's great advice for a cop. Hey, act like you're being recorded all the time.

• 25:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it's, yeah, that's interesting. Well, it make.

• 25:16Jocko Willink?

  Cause you very well might be.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 25:20Jocko Willink?

  So do the right thing.

• 25:22Speaker 01

  Next question.

• 25:24Jocko Willink?

  Thank God I didn't have cameras when I was a kid for all the dumb stuff I did. Yeah.

• 25:28Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah.

• 25:29Jocko Willink?

  I, I always want to make sure that I'm not sitting here saying like, everyone out there should do the right thing like me.

• 25:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 25:36Jocko Willink?

  I'm not saying that. If you thought I was saying that, I'm not saying that. I apologize for even sounding that way. I was as dumb and stupid as the next person and still do dumb stuff. Try not to.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  Oh, good, bro. You're the man. You don't do dumb stuff, right?

• 25:51Jocko Willink?

  No, it was bad when, when, uh, when we had Charlie Plum and Jim Kunkel on.

• 25:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:57Jocko Willink?

  And I'm like thinking, they're like, you know, hey, this is the way to act right. And I'm like, don't put me in that category with you guys. You guys are awesome, like heroes, and I'm just over here.

• 26:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I remember that.

• 26:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Don't say that about me. You guys can say like, hey, talk about character. You have character. I'm just over here trying to do my thing. Yeah. Check.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  Next question. Should McMap, that's what we're calling it, McMap?

• 26:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, McMap. That's the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program.

• 26:27Speaker 01

  Should McMap belts carry over in some way to Jiu Jitsu belts? Or should everyone start out as a white belt, no matter what kind of training you've had before?

• 26:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Uh, yep, white belt.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  White belt.

• 26:40Jocko Willink?

  White belt. Uh, for those of you who don't know what McMap is, McMap is the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program. It's a good program. It's solid. It's a solid, good place to start. The Marine Corps put together a good program. The Army has a really good program too. The Army Combatives Program. Yeah, great stuff. And both those are solid, but specifically the Marine Corps makes, when the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program has belts, you get like a tan belt, and then I think a green belt, and then a brown belt, and then a black belt. Pretty legit, right? They have a little program. Um, there is no equivalency to Jiu Jitsu. Like, you, you'll know some stuff, but it's, you should just, when you go to start Jiu Jitsu, you just go the white belt on. Now, it's the same thing with Judo.

• 27:25Jocko Willink?

  Judo's really close to Jiu Jitsu, as we know. Judo's really close to Jitsu. If you have a black belt in Judo, cool, white belt in Jiu Jitsu. Uh, Sambo, very, you know, again, very similar to Jiu Jitsu, white belt. So you might, you're gonna get promoted faster.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:42Jocko Willink?

  Because you have a lot of experience. Wrestling is the same thing. Like, you just don't go, oh, I'm, I'm, I'm just gonna show up as a purple belt, because I've been grappling for eight years. No, it doesn't work that way. Show up with a white belt, be humble, no big deal. You'll advance fast. Don't care about the belts, man. We talk about this all the time.

• 27:58Jocko Willink?

  Doesn't matter.

• 27:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:59Jocko Willink?

  Just go in there and train. As a matter of fact, having a white belt is kinda nice because there's no pressure whatsoever. Like, just enjoy that. Enjoy not worrying about getting tapped out. Enjoy just being able to roll and roll with people that are better than you or worse than you. You're the lowest on the bottom of the totem pole. You can roll with anybody and tap out and that's it. It's cool.

• 28:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:18Jocko Willink?

  Don't worry about it.

• 28:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I mean, that it seems kinda self-explanatory, maybe a little bit because, you know, it's like anything. It's like any accolade, because it's really what the belt is essentially. It's like an accolade, right, that you can wear?

• 28:34Jocko Willink?

  I think that belt actually is a sign of where you are on the, on the hierarchy.

• 28:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:41Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 28:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:42Jocko Willink?

  And, and it's a sign, though.

• 28:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:44Jocko Willink?

  It's not written in stone. It's just a sign because we know that there's

• 28:47Speaker 01

  Indicator.

• 28:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's an indicator, right? Because we know that there's, there's, there's purple belts that can tap out black belts and just, and it's just an indicator.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  But what about like the, the purpose, though? You know? It's like a, it's like a little thing, like a badge.

• 29:01Jocko Willink?

  Okay, yeah, okay, yeah. I'm trying to figure if I can counter that, but I don't think, yeah, it's like a badge.

• 29:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I'm trying to figure it out for sure, like what it is. I like belts, by the way. I like it. I dig the whole thing. But yeah, if you get kinda that badge in, in something specific, it's always something specific, like even like real badges, you know, this is specific. So, yeah, when you come and do something else, it's like, yeah, you gotta get that specific badge.

• 29:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, true.

• 29:24Speaker 01

  In, you know, um, Studio 540, right, ramps up up there. They have judo and jiu-jitsu. They have judo in there. So, you know, if you're taking the jiu-jitsu class, you know, at noon, and then you go to the judo class at two, yeah, you're changing your belts. If you're different, you know, you can't just, oh, I'm just gonna keep on my gi and just teach me judo. I'm not annoying. And no, bro, you change your belts. That's how, you know, that's a different thing. And like you said, they're similar.

• 29:47Jocko Willink?

  So you're right. It's vice versa, too. Get your black belt in, in jiu-jitsu, go to a judo class, white belt.

• 29:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, straight up.

• 29:55Jocko Willink?

  There it goes.

• 29:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, but actually, this question, he said, should it, should it translate, um, carry over in some way?

• 30:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it does carry over in some way. You have some level of

• 30:05Speaker 01

  Skill. Yeah, the skill does, not the belt, though, yeah.

• 30:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you have some level of skill. Now, if you're a black belt in McMap, if all you took was McMap, you will not be able to, you will, you will get You will not have a good time. You will not do well against a jujitsu black belt.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 30:23Jocko Willink?

  Most jujitsu black belts.

• 30:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:25Jocko Willink?

  You're not gonna do well.

• 30:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's and that's just kind of speaks more for like similarities versus differences.

• 30:31Jocko Willink?

  This is time of time of training.

• 30:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:33Jocko Willink?

  It's time of training. If you've been training longer, you're gonna win.

• 30:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:36Jocko Willink?

  That's the general rule.

• 30:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 30:38Jocko Willink?

  You know, of course, there's athleticism and there's strength and there's blah, blah, blah, blah. But if you've been training jujitsu longer, you're gonna win.

• 30:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:45Jocko Willink?

  Pretty much.

• 30:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, makes sense. Next question.

• 30:52Speaker 01

  I run a five man team, two men down. What does that mean?

• 30:57Jocko Willink?

  He's he's missing two guys.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  Oh, it's okay. So five man team. So what? It's supposed to be seven? Now it's five or it's it's a five man team? Now there's only three?

• 31:03Jocko Willink?

  We don't know.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  We don't know. Okay.

• 31:05Jocko Willink?

  Either way, we we figure that he's undermanned.

• 31:06Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 31:07Jocko Willink?

  We know that much.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  Sure, sure. Okay. Undermanned team, five man team, two men down. I'm not meeting performance expectations. No support coming from my command. Do you see a way out other than just getting after it? I know you also talk about blaming yourself in taking extreme ownership because the people above you may have different information that leads to prioritize different areas. However, when I question things like why we don't have enough people working in different zones when clearly there's an imbalance in zones to the point customers notice, or it makes it difficult for colleagues to do their jobs, then I'm deemed argumentative

• 31:46Speaker 01

  and that I don't have the best intentions. This was this was with a manager that is in charge of in charge of business and I would think understands my perspective more.

• 31:57Speaker 01

  We're supposed to have a culture of feedback, but he isn't receptive. I'm not the only one who said that about him as well. This all leads to me to me, this all leads me to think that I must just be fake and go through the motions, but that disgusts me.

• 32:14Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm. Yeah. So, uh, what do we do here? How do we take ownership of this? How do you take ownership of your boss not listening to you, not hearing what you're saying? Well, the way you take ownership of that isn't to say my boss doesn't listen and doesn't understand. The way to take ownership of that is to say that I'm not a I'm not doing a good job of getting my information to my boss. I'm not doing a good job of convincing my boss. I'm not doing a good job of influencing my boss. Boss. So you can either be mad about that, or you can change your approach. Uh, step one, we're going back to this again today. Um, build a relationship with that person. Now, there's a chance that that disgusts you.

• 32:56Jocko Willink?

  There is, right? Sure. I've talked about that before. I've literally said that I had great relationships with people that I had like a visceral hatred for. I still had a good relationship with them and worked very well with them. If it disgusts you and you can't do that,

• 33:11Jocko Willink?

  then there's other jobs, right? Where you don't have to interact with other people, you know, you could be like a long haul truck driver. You can be a technical writer, you know, where you just look at the information and turn it into words. You can be a lab technician. We don't have to interact with a lot of different people and that's cool.

• 33:29Jocko Willink?

  There's a lot of jobs out there that require very little human interaction. That's fine. Because if you think you're gonna go through life only working with people that you get along with, you're wrong. That's not gonna happen, especially if you wanna run teams and you wanna lead and you have to learn how to get over the fact that you might have to work with people that you don't like.

• 33:48Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, on top of that, if they know that you don't like them, that is not gonna make your job easier and it's not gonna make your life better. In fact, it's gonna make your life more miserable. The people that I had visceral hatred for that, that I worked for,

• 34:05Jocko Willink?

  it wasn't that bad because at least they thought I liked them and, and I acted like it and they liked me. So it's like, okay, it was a little painful, but you know what? It's pretty low impact as opposed to like head to head conflict every single day. And by the way, when you have head to head conflict every day, you're miserable, you're gonna advance slower, you're gonna have less control over your fate. You're not gonna get promoted and on top of all that, you're gonna get assigned the crappiest possible jobs because your boss doesn't like you and he likes that other guy over there. So he's gonna get the easy job. Right? He's gonna get, you go save the princess, Jocko, go slay the dragon, right? Now, of course, we know I prefer to slay the dragon, never mind the princess.

• 34:45Jocko Willink?

  But that's what I'm saying, like you wanna get along with this person, you wanna play the long game. You wanna play the long game.

• 34:54Jocko Willink?

  And here's the deal, when you play the long game, if the person sucks as bad as you say they do, they'll end up making their own bed and having to lie in it and they'll end up working for you.

• 35:07Jocko Willink?

  Now, also make sure that you come to the table with solutions, not just complaints and problems, right? You can see that this guy's talking about, "We don't have enough guys and you need to square these zones." Well, what's your solution to the problems?

• 35:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:23Jocko Willink?

  And what's really smart to do, and you've got to be a little bit careful with this, but what can be very smart to do is if you can solve the problem with your own internal assets, just go and execute on it and solve it. You know, if you use your own internal assets to solve a problem, make the change, make it happen, implement it, and you go to the boss and say, "Hey, this is what we did. There was this problem on our zones," or whatever. Yeah, "we made this adjustment. I took two guys from this blah, blah, blah. I moved them around, and now here's where we're at. We're getting better, you know, results." You have to be careful, because you can say that in such a way that you're throwing it in your boss's face, right? You can absolutely do that. Now, even though you were trying to

• 36:07Jocko Willink?

  build a relationship and trying to help the mission, you still end up with an adversarial relationship with your boss, and now things go negative again. So you've got to be careful when you do this. You can also just present the idea and present the solution, be like, "Hey, boss, here's what I want to do," which is, that's once you've got the relationship trust built up. If that doesn't there, then you can't just go present a problem, present a solution of how you're going to do it. He's not going to let you do it because he doesn't trust you. He's got an adversarial relationship with you. You see where this is?

• 36:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:31Jocko Willink?

  You see how this works?

• 36:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:33Jocko Willink?

  Another thing he says near, he says, "I would think the manager, this was a manager that is in charge of the business, and I would think he understands my perspective more," right? So here we go. If you want to take ownership of things, and how you, and you look at your boss and say, "He doesn't blame my perspective, or doesn't understand my perspective," that's his fault. You know the way I look at that? If you don't understand my perspective as my boss, it's my fault. That means I'm not explaining it to you. It means I'm not giving you enough information. It means I'm not convincing you. It means I'm not building relationships so that you can see my perspective. That's what that is. So, don't blame the boss.

• 37:16Jocko Willink?

  Step up your game, build a relationship, teach him the perspective and win. And I'll tell you one more little thing on this. From a, to get away from the disgust mindset.

• 37:28Jocko Willink?

  Cause I understand that. You know, the one, one good way to get away from disgust mindset is to get into the game mindset. The game, like this is a game. And this guy that I don't like, I'm going to become best friends with him. Watch. You know what I mean? Like, okay. Oh, you don't like this guy? Cool. Watch. Yeah. Watch this. That's how it's going to go. And you're going to have fun with it. And you're going to try and win the game. Yeah. Which is good.

• 37:50Speaker 01

  Sure. Winning. That understanding perspective. Um, I think that's an everyday, almost everyday kind of thing where, okay, so my wife, we're on our way to the park. This is today, by the way.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  And she's like, oh, she said, it's a, there's two parks. There's one you can go straight. There's one you can make a right, then you make another left. It's, it's two parks. And I don't know which one we're going to. I don't really mind which one we go to. Uh, so she was like, yeah, let's, let's go to the other one. Right. And she mentions that, I don't know which even one is the other one, but whatever, I'll follow your direction. So she said, okay, make her, she said, she goes, stay in this lane. She doesn't motion though. She goes, stay in this lane. So I'm thinking, okay, we're going to stay in this lane. And she goes, okay, uh, turn here. But then, so she's not like pointing like turn here. It's like, cause there's a turn right here. Then there's one like right here, you know, turn here can apply to like a bunch of stuff. But in her mind, it's

• 38:52Speaker 01

  super clear, you know? So if I would have got mad, or actually, I can see how people can get frustrated right there. Right? So if I would have expressed myself, you're not being more clear. Boom. Now we're, we're against each other. Yeah. Because I didn't, in my mind, I'm like, I can't read your mind. Explain better.

• 39:10Jocko Willink?

  Lave's got a funny story. He was, they were on night visions in a Humvee. And he's telling the driver, he's in that vehicle commander seat, which is the, basically the pa, the front passenger seat. And he's, he's pointing. He's going, hey, turn here, here, here. Yeah. And, and the guy just like keeps driving. And he goes, bro, what are you doing? And the guy's like, I can't see you. Cause when you have night vision goggles on, you have no peripheral vision. He's like, I can't see your fingers. And Lave's like, oh, sorry.

• 39:39Jocko Willink?

  Because what you the proper call is right turn thirty meters or right right turn five hundred meters. Right turn a hundred meters, right turn coming up, right turn boom and that way the person can do it.

• 39:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:49Jocko Willink?

  But Leif was pointing, but the guy couldn't see.

• 39:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, but there's this.

• 39:52Jocko Willink?

  Very similar to your wife who's not pointing.

• 39:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, she wasn't pointing at the time. Well, here's the thing too, and this is jamming me up. I'm not gonna take too long on this one, but the way girls.

• 40:01Jocko Willink?

  Take your time, we're all here.

• 40:02Speaker 01

  Girl, the way girls, female, females, girls, take.

• 40:07Jocko Willink?

  Do you remember the last time you talked about you generalized females? Go ahead, at your peril, go ahead.

• 40:11Speaker 01

  No, it wasn't at my peril because that that was the same thing. What? It was a drawing a bike thing. Yeah, exactly right. It's the same thing, same deal. No one drew a bike. No one drew a bike. It's completely correct.

• 40:21Jocko Willink?

  No, someone drew you on a tricycle.

• 40:23Speaker 01

  Animated.

• 40:24Jocko Willink?

  And that was legit.

• 40:24Speaker 01

  It was very legitimate. Separate than the point, but it was good.

• 40:28Jocko Willink?

  There was also some, there was also some pretty, uh, non-working bicycles that were drawn.

• 40:34Speaker 01

  Correct, yeah, and I dig it. And this by no means says, you know, the superiority or inferiority of any of the of the sex at all. I'm just saying there's some study done. Girls and guys interpret and give directions in completely different ways because of how they, how their brain formulates like, um, like, uh, directions. So, girls kind of require, this is real generally speaking, girls require like landmarks.

• 41:00Jocko Willink?

  Jordan B Peterson back on to talk about this.

• 41:02Speaker 01

  Okay, I want to, I'd ask.

• 41:04Jocko Willink?

  To see if you're correct or not.

• 41:05Speaker 01

  So, girls, they they prefer like landmarks and you know, you know, like the the the voice on the thing like she'll be like, oh, this one, so they can.

• 41:13Jocko Willink?

  Wait, you mean the Siri voice?

• 41:14Speaker 01

  Siri voice, yeah, whatever.

• 41:15Jocko Willink?

  Or whatever.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, those can help guys too, or whatever. That that navigation voice wasn't part of this study, so I shouldn't even mention the voice, but they they prefer like landmarks, like make a right at the building.

• 41:26Jocko Willink?

  Jet.

• 41:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:27Jocko Willink?

  When. When you're flying a jet plane.

• 41:31Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 41:32Jocko Willink?

  Like an F eighteen.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:33Jocko Willink?

  Which, which I have done a backseat ride in an F eighteen before. But the voice that talks to you is a, is a female voice. And, and I was told that it's because it relaxes. It gets the attention of and then kind of relaxes the pilots. So it says like, like when I was flying and I don't know, I, I, I wasn't like we were gonna die, but um, at all, like I'm not trying to say that at all, but the, the thing would say, warning. It was a girl's voice and say, warning, warning.

• 42:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:00Jocko Willink?

  Altitude, altitude.

• 42:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:02Jocko Willink?

  And yeah, so they say it's relaxing a little bit.

• 42:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I could dig it. Um, you know, typically if my wife is giving me directions, it's not relaxing. I'm not saying it's stressful, but it's not relaxing.

• 42:14Jocko Willink?

  So where were you going with this?

• 42:15Speaker 01

  The girls.

• 42:16Jocko Willink?

  Which you said was gonna be.

• 42:17Speaker 01

  I'm just saying it's, it's dangerous to do the directions thing, the navigation thing with your wife. Or your girlfriend or with a girl, with a girl thing, like if you, let's say you and a girl in whatever capacity is sitting next to you. And you guys are, you know how like when we're looking for the hotel and we were both sort of looking for the hotel?

• 42:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 42:37Speaker 01

  You know, and we're both kind of navigating and then I failed, then you just jumped, you know, remember that?

• 42:42Jocko Willink?

  And you actually debriefed me. You're like, hey, when it was time, when I failed nav, you were just like, I got this.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:46Jocko Willink?

  Here, right turn coming up 500 meters, right turn 200 meters.

• 42:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:50Jocko Willink?

  Right turn 100 meters, right turn, right turn, right turn. Okay. Get in the right hand lane and you were just like, cool.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yes.

• 42:57Jocko Willink?

  Makes it easy.

• 42:58Speaker 01

  So consider that type of situation before you took over. Consider that situation when you, we were both trying to navigate. If you do that with a girl, you, you are more likely to run into problems because of this. They interpret.

• 43:10Jocko Willink?

  Know what this is anymore.

• 43:11Speaker 01

  They interpret and give directions in different ways because their brain works different. They require like landmarks got kind of guide them like, okay, make a right at this, make a left at this.

• 43:19Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 43:20Speaker 01

  That helps, sure, but it's more.

• 43:21Jocko Willink?

  What do guys go off of?

• 43:22Speaker 01

  They build a map in their head. So if they're like, okay, like if they looked at a map, they'd be like, okay, they'd have a better understanding. Okay. So sure, I can make a right at the, at the building or whatever. But when they make a right, they're like, okay, I made that right. So here I am physically oriented, you know? And they kind of make sense of that way more than the girls do. I'm not saying it's like one is black, one is white. I'm saying one does more than one, one does more than the other.

• 43:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's more than tendency because it's how your mind works.

• 43:49Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  This is just the stu- I didn't do the study, I.

• 43:53Jocko Willink?

  Anyone who wants to address this with Echo on social media can address it to Echo. I'm, I'm out.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  I will say this and, and I'll believe the study, I sure will, because I haven't been.

• 44:04Jocko Willink?

  The other one is if you haven't, if you didn't listen to all the podcasts, Echo also said that girls cannot draw offhand a functional bicycle.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  Bicycle, correct.

• 44:12Jocko Willink?

  And he got a lot, he got a lot of attempts.

• 44:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:16Jocko Willink?

  And he did get one person that put a gif, it's a gif, right?

• 44:19Speaker 01

  Animated gif.

• 44:20Jocko Willink?

  An animated gif of Echo himself riding a tricycle.

• 44:25Speaker 01

  Tricycle, yeah.

• 44:25Jocko Willink?

  It was pretty awesome.

• 44:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, again, beside the point, but it was very, very awesome.

• 44:31Jocko Willink?

  I don't even have any idea what the point of anything that we've said in the last few minutes, and I don't even want you two trying to.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  We're talking about miscommunication. Like, I can't read your mind, you gotta communicate, you know, like, he don't understand my perspective, he's supposed to understand, kind of thing, you know?

• 44:44Jocko Willink?

  Got it, yes, yes.

• 44:46Speaker 01

  It's true, man, so you gotta be clear, is what I'm saying, like how you were when we were finding that steak place or hotel or whatever.

• 44:53Jocko Willink?

  That was a good steak, by the way.

• 44:54Speaker 01

  Yes. Alright, next question.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  Do you think we, do you think you would take up jujitsu in your 40s if you'd been introduced to something else in your 20s, like Muay Thai boxing, etc.? I'm struggling with jujitsu, I respect the hell out of it, I have an easier time with boxing and kickboxing.

• 45:17Jocko Willink?

  Just interesting, I'm just making it a little like, I have an easier time with these things.

• 45:20Speaker 01

  Gotcha, yeah, yeah.

• 45:21Jocko Willink?

  So that's what I'm gonna focus on.

• 45:23Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, maybe. Given your most recent admission that you're, you are boring, obviously you're not because of your popularity, do you think you'd pick it up later in life? Jujitsu, to me, is a chore. Boxing, kickboxing is fun. I think because in my youth, I figured out how to move my body in that way. I'm 43, by the way.

• 45:45Jocko Willink?

  Uh, so, first of all, do I think I would go to jujitsu or start jujitsu or get into jujitsu in my 40s if I hadn't, if I had been, yes, absolutely, 100%. Uh, the power of jujitsu is very real, it's a real thing, and once I recognized it, I wanted to have that power, the, the power to. choke people arm lock them dominate win like win with no mercy now what what's interesting about this is there's certain people like certain things right and he even says like I have an easier time with kickboxing and boxing because he's been part of that's because he's done it for a long time since his 20s so it's just easy for him and it like jujitsu seems like a chore

• 46:29Jocko Willink?

  for him because you know what else he's getting beat up you know if he hasn't just getting into it now he's getting beat up he's getting triggered yeah that's a chore man it's hard it's hard on the ego um yeah I thought of an interesting rule if you don't like jujitsu if you don't think you like maybe what do you think of this rule if you don't think you like jujitsu take it and I was trying to think take it for six months take it for three months and I said take it until you legitimately submit someone that is comparable in some way to you yeah you think that's a good rule I think that's a good rule yeah that's a good rule because I'm not talking about you you

• 47:11Jocko Willink?

  tap someone out that's weak and smaller weaker than you and smaller than you and then you're like see I can tap him out I'm gonna quit now no I'm talking about someone that's equivalent to you someone that has some comparable like physical attributes to you because I believe that once somebody gets the taste of the power and also this this also implies or is factually if you train enough that you submit someone that means you got submitted a thousand probably 500 times yeah you think that's a good number five I bet you if you by the time you submit someone in jujitsu you've probably been submitted 500 times okay 400 300 times 300 times yeah yeah

• 47:52Jocko Willink?

  if you go to a jujitsu academy as a white belt zero training yeah yeah you're gonna get submitted

• 48:00Jocko Willink?

  Four times, five times, six times a class. Right?

• 48:05Speaker 01

  Well, it just depends if there's other white belts that that are first, second, third, fourth, fifth day, first, first month. So you, you, you could. No, yeah, you could. Depends.

• 48:15Jocko Willink?

  I bet you get submitted.

• 48:17Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 48:17Jocko Willink?

  A lot of times.

• 48:17Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. You're not tapping guys out.

• 48:19Jocko Willink?

  It's 300, it's 200 times. It's definitely more than 100.

• 48:22Speaker 01

  But I wouldn't say.

• 48:23Jocko Willink?

  You get tapped out 100 times in a week.

• 48:24Speaker 01

  Wait, before, wait, wait, was.

• 48:26Jocko Willink?

  100 times before you tap anybody.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  Anybody?

• 48:29Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 48:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, that that's going to depend. If you have other white belts in first day, guys, let's say you've.

• 48:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, of course. If you've been training for three weeks, you can tap out somebody that hasn't been training ever. Yeah, that's, that's how fast you can learn jujitsu.

• 48:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:40Jocko Willink?

  When I first, the first moves that I learned, I didn't, I probably knew like a month's worth of jujitsu, but no one could hang with me because I knew like the basic stuff. No one even knew what to do.

• 48:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Consider a rear naked choke. All you have to do is you can learn the rear naked choke one day in the beginning of class and all you have to figure out when you roll. If a guy doesn't have much experience, all you have to figure out is how to get on his back. That's all you gotta do.

• 49:03Jocko Willink?

  It's really cool when you teach kids jujitsu. Like you can say something like, you could give them the class on how to pass the guard.

• 49:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:11Jocko Willink?

  Right? And they would start to do what you told them to do, or you could say, okay, your goal is to get out of their legs and get around them. And they'll figure out how to do it.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:23Jocko Willink?

  And it's pretty awesome.

• 49:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:24Jocko Willink?

  And then what you do is you give them a couple of little pointers.

• 49:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:27Jocko Willink?

  Because their instincts will be a little bit off, but you give them a couple of little pointers, a couple of things to work with, and then they'll develop those into some really cool stuff.

• 49:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, and I don't know if I said this before, but that even is true, not as much, but is still true with adults.

• 49:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 49:42Speaker 01

  It's because if you teach them the technique first, and then, then you say, hey, those techniques I taught you, that's passing the guard and it doesn't. It's way easier to like get, it's almost like getting a big piece of clay and being like, okay, make the head, make the body, make the arms. That's it. And then you're like, okay, now you've got the arms. That's cool. Now I'll make the fingers. Now I'll make the, you know, and then start to go with the details there as far as the, the technical techniques with like passing the guard. But I, that's how, actually, that's how I learned from Dean, where he would teach stuff, but I would just see him like getting passed and I know, okay. When he gets past you, that's like hard to get out of. So that's what I want to try to do. And when guys would get past.

• 50:20Jocko Willink?

  Affirmative.

• 50:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it I thought I thought that it really worked better that way to just to teach that way. If someone's starting from zero, because it's hard to put into context when you don't know anything. You're like, yeah, I'm doing this cool like technique.

• 50:34Jocko Willink?

  It's cool doing the intro class at the muster. Cause you have a lot of people that have never done jujitsu before.

• 50:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 50:40Jocko Willink?

  And that's that like how and how you're saying to teach is exactly how we teach. It's like, hey, this is the concept. And then we teach a couple of little moves of like what to do there. And then you watch people get after it and they do get after it. It's pretty cool.

• 50:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. But yes, here, the the reason for this, this goes for anything, by the way. If you are successful, especially if they're all if they're kind of similar, like in this case where he's like, okay, martial arts, right? Jiu Jitsu, I'm going to start Jiu Jitsu way late. Meanwhile, I have experience doing Muay Thai boxing. So if he has experience, assuming he's been somewhat successful, not necessarily in competition, but not not competition. Just like he knows what he's doing. When he throws a punch, he can have a level of success of that punch landing, you know, like, and it's going to be pretty often if he has 20 years experience, give or take whatever. So he's experiencing little, how should I say, little micro successes when he jumps in the boxing situation. And Muay Thai.

• 51:34Jocko Willink?

  And Jiu Jitsu is getting macro failures.

• 51:36Speaker 01

  Failures all day, all day. It's a huge chore and that's life. So if you look, if you're, if you're going in with nothing, you have no micro, you know, successes, no nothing. You're just going in, I don't train anything. I go in, sure, I'll take some hits, I'll take some failures because I'm learning this new thing. But if you have it compared to, look, I'm going to come into Victory MMA. I'm going to see the kickboxing situation going on, I'm going to see Jiu Jitsu situation going on. My brain is automatically going to be like, okay, what's going to be the best experience for me right now?

• 52:05Jocko Willink?

  Micro victories.

• 52:07Speaker 01

  I'm going to go where the victories are. I'm going to go where the payoff is, you know, those payoffs where I can land punches, I can do, I can know what I'm doing. Dang, when I move my body, it does what I want it to do and it yields success. Yeah, it's effective. Or I can go to Jiu Jitsu and where everyone else has success, everyone else is getting their payoff, not me, by the way. Everyone else is, I'm getting tapped out and that part in and of itself is like, that's especially if you're a guy.

• 52:33Jocko Willink?

  Is it a personality thing where some people, as soon as they get, as soon as they get tapped into Jiu Jitsu, they're like, oh, my God, I need to learn this immediately. Like, you know, when you, when people get the Jiu Jitsu bug?

• 52:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure. Yeah.

• 52:46Jocko Willink?

  Not everyone gets the jujitsu bug, right? Not everyone, a lot of people do. Well, what percentage of people get the jujitsu bug?

• 52:54Speaker 01

  Oh dang, I have no idea.

• 52:55Jocko Willink?

  Twenty percent? Thirty percent?

• 52:57Speaker 01

  Depends, like twenty percent of who? Of all people who start doing jujitsu?

• 53:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. It's probably not even twenty percent, now that you think about it. It's weird as much as there's, there is jujitsu. As much as we talk about it in a very positive way, people, normal people have a hard time with it. It's weird for me to admit that. It's weird for me to say that. But if I think about it, and I've talked about this before, like of all the people that I've introduced to jujitsu over the years. I would, I think I have like maybe four black belts of people that I fully like, they, they started jujitsu because of me. I'm talking so that with those percentages, it's very, very small, people that actually stick with it and get the bug.

• 53:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:40Jocko Willink?

  Might not even be four.

• 53:41Speaker 01

  And, but you, and you can get the bug and the bug kind of wear off. You know how that is where, you know, I, I remember.

• 53:48Jocko Willink?

  Then that's not the bug.

• 53:50Speaker 01

  That's not the real bug, huh? That's like the, the, the diet jujitsu bug or something.

• 53:54Jocko Willink?

  Bug light.

• 53:58Speaker 01

  That's exactly what it is.

• 53:59Jocko Willink?

  Well, it's the bug light because people get the purple belt and then they don't show up anymore. People get the brown belt, they don't show, people don't get the blue belt and they don't show up anymore.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it just, they just.

• 54:08Jocko Willink?

  And then there's people that get the black belt, keep training.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:11Jocko Willink?

  That's the bug, that's the real bug.

• 54:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully. I used to think like when you dream about it, you know how like you'll dream, you'll learn a move and you'll dream of, it'll just kind of be in your thing. Um, in your mind, you know, subconscious and subconscious. I thought that that was kind of it, but in my experience that that goes away sometimes, it depends on what you're into. But I don't know. Yeah, but nonetheless, he, that's it. That's what I think, because that's pretty common.

• 54:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, for sure, for sure. So was there, was there like an actual advice?

• 54:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, do you think, do you think you?

• 54:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I would have, so my answers are yes, I would have done jujitsu. Cause I would have had the bug. And my advice is if it's a chore, keep doing it until it's fun.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, that.

• 54:52Jocko Willink?

  I the thing is, it is fun to get beat. It's fun to get like, it's fun. It's it's fun to have like my favorite people to train with are the people that give me the hardest runs.

• 55:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:03Jocko Willink?

  And my absolute most favorite people to train with are the people that actually can get me.

• 55:07Speaker 01

  I know, but it's again, you have to have this. There's this third factor here where the kickboxing and boxing is right there. I could be right there right now and and winning, you know, just doing it. And but I'm not, I'm over here and this guy's mounted on me and and he's he's choking me and stuff like this. Man, it's I dig it, man. It makes sense.

• 55:28Jocko Willink?

  We could reverse this question and say like, okay, Jocko, then when why aren't you in boxing and striking all the time? For me, that's a pretty, it's actually not that hard of an answer. I've done boxing and striking. And the thing that is different is in boxing and striking, even though you're talking about micro wins. Most of the nights of training boxing or kickboxing. There the micro wins are against pads and a bag, right? Because you're not sparring every night.

• 55:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:58Jocko Willink?

  And if you are sparring every night, you're you're making a mistake.

• 56:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you're not even going as hard as you can.

• 56:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I mean, you can have fun and we we do that too. Like we we call it playing tag where you're like, you're like touching the person you're you're. It's almost like a slap fight, you know? But you can't do that every, you can't spar every night and you shouldn't spar every night. And if you are sparring every night, you're wrong, but you can roll every night. You can get you can get full victories, not micro victories, full submissions.

• 56:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:27Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 56:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, uh, yeah, and I agree. And I think that if you. I mean, it really depends on who you are, but to me, that was the the the big time appeal. And still is the the legitimate appeal of jujitsu where you know how like people even now they'll be like, hey, but this martial arts is superior because this and that. But really, jujitsu is kind of being tested the best. Because it's going against in a full speed, enemy, quote unquote, enemy.

• 56:57Jocko Willink?

  It's funny when people are like, how would you ever get someone's arm there? You know what I mean? They're like, oh, yeah, you get to get eat that armlock, try that on me. It's like, oh, okay, cool. What was I just reading about? Didn't um? Gordon Ryan just beat somebody. He like called it.

• 57:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:14Jocko Willink?

  He called it.

• 57:14Speaker 01

  Metal Gear seven.

• 57:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he was like, I'm gonna beat you with this and he did it.

• 57:18Speaker 01

  Within this amount of time, did it by the way. Yeah. And that's how it is, man. And that's against a high level guy. Well, Gordon Ryan is obviously one of the best guys right now. Um, but that that is kind of how Jiu Jitsu is, you know, unless it's like some huge giant like football player just spazzing and running away the whole time. If you're if someone engaging you, that's kind of how it is where you're like, oh, I can choke. If they don't know Jiu Jitsu and you know.

• 57:43Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. If they don't know. Oh, yeah, for sure.

• 57:45Speaker 01

  They're like, how are you gonna get my arm there?

• 57:46Jocko Willink?

  Gordon Ryan did not do that to someone that didn't know Jiu Jitsu.

• 57:49Speaker 01

  I know.

• 57:50Jocko Willink?

  And that's so funny because that's those those are the Hickson stories, you know, like Hickson would be like, I'm gonna every all of you 14 black belts. I'm gonna arm lock your left arm, all of you. And he'd do it. All of them, black belts.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. Damn, that's that's a.

• 58:06Jocko Willink?

  You heard those stories, right?

• 58:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:07Jocko Willink?

  I rolled with Hickson. I've talked about that before.

• 58:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:10Jocko Willink?

  Hickson's really good at Jiu Jitsu.

• 58:13Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 58:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 58:15Speaker 01

  But yes, but I don't know though. So what do you do though? Like what what's the advice? No, no, no, back to the.

• 58:20Jocko Willink?

  My advice is like I said, that's why I think my new rule is train until you submit someone that is legitimately comparable to you.

• 58:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:29Jocko Willink?

  And then if you don't like it still, then don't train. Like there was one guy on social media that like kept coming back to me like, I know I hate Jiu Jitsu.

• 58:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:37Jocko Willink?

  I hate it. I hate it. And I was like, after a while, I'm like, okay, can you defend yourself against, you know, a takedown? Can you get up from the bottom? Okay, then go find something else to do and quit complaining to me about it. Like, everyone is not meant for Jiu Jitsu. I get it.

• 58:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:50Jocko Willink?

  Fine.

• 58:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I almost but it's still.

• 58:52Jocko Willink?

  It is beneficial, though.

• 58:53Speaker 01

  Feels like it is for everyone. It's what it feels like.

• 58:56Jocko Willink?

  That's what it feels like. That's why I'm saying that's what it feels like to you and me and to the people that we hang out with. And that's why when I was saying like, some people don't like Jiu Jitsu is really weird for me.

• 59:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:04Jocko Willink?

  To understand that. I have a hard time with their perspective.

• 59:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:08Jocko Willink?

  You know what I mean?

• 59:08Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 59:09Jocko Willink?

  That's me. Mister Mister, understand their perspective. When you tell me like, I don't really like Jiu Jitsu. It's like, why? Why would you not like it?

• 59:16Speaker 01

  Straight up.

• 59:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I'm glad you don't like it. Makes life easier for me. One person I don't have to worry about being able to choke me.

• 59:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 59:24Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 59:25Speaker 01

  I would say this. Try this. If you're in this situation, this is what I would do.

• 59:32Speaker 01

  Try to forget about like when you're like, okay, I'm gonna go jujitsu tonight. Forget about boxing as a concept. Forget about kickboxing. Forget about it. Like, don't, don't think about that. Like, your whole thing right now is like, is just jujitsu and think of it as like just this complete learning experience, of course. But forget about the boxing, because anytime like that's, that's what's gonna happen when you keep that boxing on your mind or the kickboxing on your mind. You're like, why am I doing this when I could be doing boxing, which is like badass anyway, you know, kind of thing? But just forget about it.

• 1:00:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:05Speaker 01

  I think that's the thing. You know how like guys in the UFC, that'll, that'll happen sometimes where they're super good at jujitsu? And then they'll train boxing and like phone it in.

• 1:00:14Jocko Willink?

  And it's vice versa, too.

• 1:00:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:16Jocko Willink?

  Like I was just saying, like, some people, and, and this is true with fighters, some fighters don't like striking. They don't like to get hit specifically. No one minds punching people. Some people like it. Some people like, they, they truly like to punch someone else in the head. Some people are good with it. Most people are good with it because it feels good. Some people don't like to get hit. They really don't like that. Some people don't like to get smashed on the ground. They get claustrophobic, right? They don't like that. And so different people have little different, I don't know if call them weaknesses, but preferences.

• 1:00:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:50Jocko Willink?

  And you can see that very clearly, especially in the earlier UFC's. Nowadays, you're not getting the UFC if you're super uncomfortable in, in any arena of martial arts. If you're just, if you're just super uncomfortable, stand up, you, you, you, you know, maybe you might make an undercard barely, but you don't see that on TV.

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  Don't go as far for sure.

• 1:01:11Speaker 01

  There you go. I like that rule. Do it until you tap someone out. Like, compare, yeah, comparable to you.

• 1:01:17Jocko Willink?

  Cause, cause what I think happens, once you do that, you're like, I wanna do that again.

• 1:01:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:22Jocko Willink?

  And you got the benefit of getting tapped out, which is a bet, which to me motivates me more than just tapping someone out.

• 1:01:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:27Jocko Willink?

  Like, how did someone control me? Think about that. Another human being can control me completely. Dean does that to me sometimes, and I'm, I'm sitting here thinking to myself, I'm like, man, I've been training for a really long time. And I'm a grown man, in good physical condition, relatively strong. And he can hold me in a position where I cannot do anything, and I can actually do that to him too, not as, clearly not as often.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:54Jocko Willink?

  But like we, he's got, he's got three positions he can do it to me, and I think he can cross side, mount. And on all fours, right?

• 1:02:04Speaker 01

  Oh, right.

• 1:02:04Jocko Willink?

  If I'm in one of those positions, or he's in one of those positions on me, I'm doomed.

• 1:02:09Speaker 01

  Bad deal.

• 1:02:09Jocko Willink?

  For me, it's only, I don't have a mount on him. His mount escape is awesome. And my mount's not really good, so he's, he can get out of that, so it's no big deal. But cross-eyed, or when he's on all fours, I'm gonna torture him. And we both know we're gonna get tortured in those positions. For him, it's two, for him, either there's two positions he's gonna get tortured in. For me, there's three positions I'm gonna get tortured in. Tortured.

• 1:02:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:30Jocko Willink?

  Tortured.

• 1:02:30Speaker 01

  Yes, sir. I would agree.

• 1:02:32Jocko Willink?

  You've seen it.

• 1:02:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's tortured. Yeah, you felt it too. On both examples.

• 1:02:36Speaker 01

  Oh, except the mount, though. I can escape mount better. Yeah, no, mount escape.

• 1:02:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you have good mount escape.

• 1:02:42Speaker 01

  So not as, but yeah, no, that's bad. I dig it. That, isn't that weird, though? You have, you know, 25, over 25 years' experience, trained, very strong and big, by the way. Like, compared to like a normal jujitsu guy, like, you're a big, you're a thing, that's huge. Play, jujitsu player.

• 1:02:59Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:02:59Speaker 01

  Big, strong, experienced, know what to do, know what not to do. All that doesn't mean anything just for that moment. Doesn't mean nothing.

• 1:03:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  Holy cow.

• 1:03:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's a scary thing.

• 1:03:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. Next question. Good evening. I'm a firefighter, paramedic, and I'm still the rookie at my station. The fire service is notorious for politics within the ranks, and rookies often get the worst of it. My question is, how can I implement extreme ownership in a situation where the blame falls to me anyway? How can I have my superiors view this as a positive trait? When every rookie gets the short end of the stick? And when none of my superiors are willing to engage in extreme ownership? I'm taking ownership, however, the typical response along, is along the lines of, that's correct, it is your fault.

• 1:03:46Jocko Willink?

  Dang.

• 1:03:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you know what?

• 1:03:52Jocko Willink?

  That's correct, it is your fault! That's what extreme ownership is, that's what it is.

• 1:03:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:59Jocko Willink?

  That's what it is.

• 1:04:02Jocko Willink?

  That's what it is. That's what extreme ownership is. You're saying it's your fault. You're not just saying it so they leave you alone. You're saying it because you're taking ownership of it. Then you can fix what is wrong.

• 1:04:14Jocko Willink?

  That's what it is. So, and I will tell you, the boss will notice. He will. He'll notice. And the people above you in the chain of command will notice. They will notice that you're taking ownership. They'll notice that you're solving problems. They'll notice that. That will then give you a good reputation. But taking extreme ownership does not absolve you of the blame. That's the opposite of that.

• 1:04:42Jocko Willink?

  You are at fault. That's the whole point. That's the whole point. And this is one of those classic questions I get asked all the time. It's like, what if they say, what if they say that's right, it is your fault? That's what you're saying.

• 1:04:58Jocko Willink?

  So it doesn't matter. It's true in business. It's, and it's true in life, too. If you're blaming other people for things that are going wrong, you're not going to fix them. You can't fix them because in your mind, you don't control them. They're not your fault. So if you want to take extreme ownership at work and in business and in life, stop blaming other people and blame yourself and realize that it actually is your fault. That's correct. Own it and do something about it.

• 1:05:29Speaker 01

  Do you think that sometimes, like this, you know how some people will, at like at the muster, some people say, ask you this, and they'll say, it'll be similar to this, where, where they'll be like, like, I'm trying to take extreme ownership, but you know, something like this happens. And then you say, well, yeah, like you take extreme ownership, you actually take the blame. And then you talk about how you're going to fix the problem, right? Like, that's how you do it. You don't just take, you don't say, yes, my fault. And then boom, we're good. We're done. My bust kind of thing.

• 1:06:01Jocko Willink?

  It's that's ego. It's funny because your ego is like, if I say like, Echo, this went wrong and it's my fault. And then you go, yeah, yeah, you should have done a better job. I get that's what I talk about all the time. That's my defense. I'm like, oh, what are you talking about? Well, you know, I, you know, I would have been able to do it better if you would have done blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So even though I'm saying I'm taking ownership, I'm not actually taking ownership.

• 1:06:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. So that was actually going to be my question.

• 1:06:25Jocko Willink?

  Stop making excuses, people.

• 1:06:27Speaker 01

  So it's almost like, maybe not all the time, but it's almost like, like, let's say I did something and I messed up. I caught my own mistake right in the middle of doing it. I was like, man, I'm so dumb. And it was a dumb mistake. I'm so dumb. And you said, yeah, you are dumb. And I'd be like, wait, don't call me dumb. Right? It's kind of like that, right? It's like, man, you just said you're dumb kind of thing.

• 1:06:47Jocko Willink?

  You know what else is funniest too, is you hear people make excuses like,

• 1:06:54Jocko Willink?

  but instead of taking the blame, instead of taking owning the excuse, they, they, so like, let's say, uh, I wasn't prepared for a podcast. Or let's say, no, I said, hey, we're gonna, we can try and record on Wednesday, but I don't think I'm going to be able to do it because I have this going on and my dog did this and my kid did that. And I'm, I'm making excuses. Instead of saying like, hey, I didn't plan well enough and I didn't anticipate some things that I should have anticipated and now I'm not going to be ready.

• 1:07:25Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah.

• 1:07:26Jocko Willink?

  It's my fault.

• 1:07:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:27Jocko Willink?

  Now, if you get in, well, this is what happens and this is the difference, man. If you have the habit of actually saying like, hey, I didn't anticipate this and it's actually my fault, then you know what you do? You plan better.

• 1:07:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:43Jocko Willink?

  How many times have I called you up and said, hey, Echo, I'm not ready to record the podcast?

• 1:07:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, a few times. No, actually, no. You said, I might not be ready.

• 1:07:52Jocko Willink?

  And then?

• 1:07:53Speaker 01

  Then you probably got mad at yourself.

• 1:07:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, got mad at myself. And I, but I, I was actually giving you a warning of like, hey, I'm gonna be, it's gonna be tight. But I knew I was gonna have to work to try and get it done. What I'm saying is, when you truly say like, everything that's happening in my world is my fault, you don't make excuses anymore upfront. You, you, and even if you do, you say like, hey, here's what's going on and this is what I'm going to do to get over them.

• 1:08:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:19Jocko Willink?

  It's a big difference, man. It has a huge impact. When you're saying. Here's a good one. Like, this is one of the probably the most common thing of anything in any excuse is I don't have time. It's the most. Is there any more common excuse than I don't have time besides the dog ate my homework, right? I don't, not that I know of. By the way, one time the dog literally ate my kid's homework. It was all chewed up. Yeah. Well, the dog ate your homework. Keep your, keep your, in a dog secure area. Yeah. So there's no, there's no bigger excuse that gets used more common, at least for like a long-term goal, like a, like, hey, I wanna, you name it. Yeah. I wanna, you name it. I wanna play piano, wanna play guitar, I wanna write a book, I wanna

• 1:09:00Jocko Willink?

  study, I wanna get my degree, all this stuff, right? Anything is just, I don't have time. I wanna get in shape, right? I wanna run every, it's, it's all, hey, even, even I wanna spend more time with my kids, but I don't have time. Yeah. So that's, that's the pre-given excuse. But when you blame all these other things, the time, it's not your fault that you don't have time. Right. It's the fault of the schedule. It's the fault of the weather. It's the fault of, it's the lack of time. The fact of the matter is if you take ownership of that, if you take ownership of the time, you will have time because you'll make time. Yeah. And when I call you up and say, hey, I might not be able to get ready, what I'm doing is like saying, okay,

• 1:09:44Jocko Willink?

  I'm giving him a warning and then I'm looking at my schedule going, where can I finish prep or where can I prepare for this? Yeah. When can I get this done? That's the ultimate excuse for so many people. I don't have time. And the minute you say that you don't have control over the time, you do have control over the time. Guess what? Hey, are there people that are working three jobs? Yes, there are. And might they have, are there things that they're gonna have to edit out of their schedule? Yes, there are. One of the first things you should edit out of your schedule? YouTube, social media surfing, internet surfing, right? Uh, what else do we do to waste time? You know what I mean? Like, we waste time doing things. TV.

• 1:10:25Jocko Willink?

  So that way, if you, if you have an excuse,

• 1:10:30Jocko Willink?

  turn it back on yourself and take control of it.

• 1:10:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:32Jocko Willink?

  That's all I'm saying. We got, you make the time.

• 1:10:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:36Jocko Willink?

  You make the time.

• 1:10:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, a little time-saving element. I don't even know if it's a tip. It's just a little thing to consider.

• 1:10:45Jocko Willink?

  When you cruise, cruise extra hard so you can get it done in half the time?

• 1:10:50Speaker 01

  I'm disciplined with my time so I can cruise.

• 1:10:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:53Speaker 01

  Sometimes.

• 1:10:55Jocko Willink?

  Discipline equals cruising.

• 1:10:56Speaker 01

  Yes, that's the freedom part of cruising. The time is like a, it can be kind of like a balloon, you know, with like little leaks in it. Where, you know, you wanna, like, time will just kind of leak away, right? So if you're not, you know how like, in fact, you're, I think you were the one who kind of told me where it's like, you should, you should like plan kind of everything. You gotta go just plan it all and get it done. And then the rest of that time is all, is your time.

• 1:11:20Jocko Willink?

  Open free.

• 1:11:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. So if you're like, okay, I have some stuff to do today, but I'm not gonna plan it necessarily. I'm just gonna sort of get it done tomorrow at some point. You could get one thing done. You could just be, you know, messing around or whatever. And then you get another thing done and you're kind of like, dang, that took me kind of all day a lot of times. So, you know, especially if you have like three, four things. But all those like little in-between times, if you can add them all up, but sure, okay, a workout takes, let's say you really want to go hard and say, I want to work out for an hour and a half every day. But I don't really have a free hour and a half in a row, right? Because I gotta go pick up my kids and I gotta go do this. I gotta drop them off. I gotta do all this stuff. But if most of the time, if you're like, okay, I'm gonna schedule all these things and I'm gonna boom, boom, get them all done, then it's almost like you're shifting your time.

• 1:12:03Speaker 01

  So it doesn't just leak through the little things that you have to do when you allow it to.

• 1:12:08Jocko Willink?

  I think it was you that originally talked about this. How much work people get done before like vacation? Like they know where they're going on vacation, so they work, get everything done. Do that every day.

• 1:12:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:12:20Jocko Willink?

  You'll have more free time.

• 1:12:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. Just even like when you're leaving, hey, this is what I found myself, I did this the other day. I went, I actually went to 24 hour fitness. Got a good workout, by the way.

• 1:12:32Speaker 01

  So I went 24 hours, got my workout or whatever, came out, came in my truck. I was checking, checking the crypto stuff, but so I got my truck, checked it and I was checking it and then I like checked some alerts, you know, checking and boom, boom, and then I left. So I remember when I put my phone down and I started it up and I left, I kind of looked over and you could see the window of 24 Fitness and you know, the people that work at the front desk are there. So I, for whatever reason, I'm thinking to myself, I wonder if they were watching me like, oh, another person addicted to his phone in there. Kind of just had that thought, you know, that I thought about, I was like, wait, there, that was like a good, maybe 10 minutes. Oh, yeah. That I just like let leak away right there. Hey, if, if that was part of my schedule, if I needed

• 1:13:14Speaker 01

  to check these things for sure, I could have like, if that was on some sort of a schedule, or if I, if I chose to do that at a specific time, I would have got that 10 minutes back somehow. Like that 10 minutes wouldn't have leaked away. No. I actually, by the time I left the gym, at that particular time, if I didn't let that 10 minutes, I would have been home already doing other stuff that I should have scheduled. Yeah, work, doing, yeah, exactly right. And we do that all day, that kind of stuff. Don't let your time leak. But another thing where, another time or another situation where this works, what you're saying about this, um, taking ownership and for real, take ownership. Don't be like, hey, uh, you know, you know, uh, it's my fault. Then this is your fault. Be like, oh, why does everyone say it's my

• 1:13:57Speaker 01

  fault, kind of thing. I'm not saying he said that, but I'm saying that is apologizing when you apologize to someone. You know how like someone's like, hey, hey, look, look, me and you had a disagreement, it escalated, whatever. Then the next day I'm like, hey, man, I'm, I'm sorry, you know, but, but you did kind of say something, you know, but I, but I am sorry, you know, kind of thing, you know, yeah. Right. So you're putting a bot on there? Yeah. And your point is like, it's not real, it's not a true apology? It's not effective at all. Like you, or if you explain like, but I was just feeling this or, you know, it's just, you know, anytime there's not a like a full on hundred percent full speed apology towards someone, like, don't mention the reasons why you felt that way. Don't mention any kind of justification on why you went there with your mind or whatever. It's all just like,

• 1:14:39Speaker 01

  this is what I did. This is all like terrible and whatever. And I'm straight up, sorry. That's ineffective. Yeah.

• 1:14:46Jocko Willink?

  Speaking of apologies, next question.

• 1:14:48Speaker 01

  I'm sorry for taking so long with that. And, you know, but you were really egging me on. I'm just saying. Next question. Jocko, the military taught me to never apologize. Speaking of which, because it's a sign of weakness. Had a conversation with a coworker who says that extreme ownership is the same as apologizing.

• 1:15:08Jocko Willink?

  So, uh, first of all, no. Apologizing is actually not a sign of weakness. And whoever was putting that out, whoever taught that was actually too insecure about themselves and their leadership capability to admit when they were wrong or made a mistake. And, and really insecure about a lot of other things, most likely. People, it's actually the opposite. People that can't admit their mistakes are weak.

• 1:15:39Jocko Willink?

  And people that can't apologize when they screw up are weak. They're scared. They're scared to take ownership and they're protective of their ego.

• 1:15:49Jocko Willink?

  Now, that being said, extreme ownership is not the same as apologizing, but they're definitely similar. You know, extreme ownership means you're admitting that there's some kind of a problem and you're taking ownership of that problem. If, if it's something that you did wrong, then you're, you're taking ownership of that mistake. The key part, as you already said, is not that you're just owning the problem. You're actually solving the problem.

• 1:16:15Jocko Willink?

  And yeah, if you screw something up or you make a mistake, then apologize for it. Apologize for your shortfalls. And then you can move forward. Uh, Sarah Armstrong, she's said a couple of times on Twitter when I've said like, yeah, say you're sorry. She said, ask for forgiveness too. I haven't, I haven't tried that one out, but she seems to see, seems to think that that is another. And when she says things, I listen to her. She's, she's a smart woman.

• 1:16:42Speaker 01

  We talked about that. I think it might've been Sarah Armstrong. Oh, wait. She said that a long time ago, right? Okay. Yeah. You see, we talked about this before and here's my take on that one. Say it again. I'm not a hundred percent on that one. Like ask for forgiveness is why. Yeah, yeah, I will. Because it's this, if someone, I dig it as far as like doing it, it feels like, it does feel like, like a humble kind of approach, but it can be taken like this. So I would take it.

• 1:17:08Speaker 01

  And I don't think I'd be wrong most of the time where when it's like, okay, I'm, I'm sorry, you know, I'm, I'm, I messed up. It's all me, whatever. Right. So it's almost like he, you throw the ball in their court to be the bad guy. It's kind of like, so it's, it's almost like a guaranteed way to get forgiven. That's what it is. And it's kind of like, I know that. So it's like, this is me strong-arming forgiveness from you. It's like shaming you into forgiveness.

• 1:17:34Jocko Willink?

  Oh, so you're saying if you're like, if I say, hey, Echo, I'm really sorry about this, do you forgive me?

• 1:17:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:40Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 1:17:41Speaker 01

  I gotta say yes. If I say no, I'm the bad guy.

• 1:17:44Jocko Willink?

  Imposing on you.

• 1:17:45Speaker 01

  Imposing, strong-arming them.

• 1:17:46Jocko Willink?

  That's interesting. We'll have to get some feedback. I'm sure Sarah will give you some feedback.

• 1:17:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's subtle, but um, and I'm saying really it's more prevalent.

• 1:17:54Jocko Willink?

  I don't think I've ever asked for a person's forgiveness. I've said, I've said, you know, sorry and apologized for all kinds of stupid things that I've done, but I don't think I've ever asked for forgiveness. Maybe if this was something really big.

• 1:18:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:07Jocko Willink?

  But even then, man, yeah, that's a tough one. I am sure she has a little great reason behind it. We'll have to get further explanations.

• 1:18:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, I thought of that because I considered like saying that in some minor situation, whatever. And then I'm like, wait.

• 1:18:22Jocko Willink?

  In minor situations, it's too much. Like, you know, hey Echo, I showed up late, man, I'm sorry. Will you forgive me? Like, no. Like, that's a little too much.

• 1:18:31Speaker 01

  It's like saying, hey, I know, you know, I know I made you bad or something like that. I know I made you mad and I'm sorry, you know, whatever. Are you still mad? It's kind of like that. Cause if you say, yeah, I'm still mad, it's kind of like, all right. Hey, I said my piece. You chose not to be mad or you chose to continue to be mad. That's your problem kind of thing. It's like, do you, please forgive me. Please forgive me. Like, what kind of a dick doesn't forgive someone? You know? It's kind of like that. And they're bringing that. So it's like a little strong.

• 1:19:02Jocko Willink?

  Like I said, we'll get feedback. It's, it's an interesting, we'll get feedback from Sarah. I'm sure. It's interesting to think that there's people out there and you know, they're out there like, hey, don't apologize. It's a sign of weakness. This is just being dumb.

• 1:19:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree with you with that.

• 1:19:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, here's, here's the advice for today. Don't be dumb.

• 1:19:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's kind of goes, it the apologizing and taking extreme ownership, I see not similar. I think there's a big overlap there.

• 1:19:26Jocko Willink?

  Oh, there's huge overlap. I didn't say they were not similar.

• 1:19:29Speaker 01

  Oh, no, no, not the, not the same thing. Sorry.

• 1:19:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they're not, they're not the same thing. Yeah, there's a huge amount of overlap. Yeah.

• 1:19:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like, um, well, back to the thing when you're like, yo, if, if you don't apologize, that's weak or whatever. That's kind of like the guy who says like, hey, this is how I am. Take it or leave it kind of thing. Like if they're like, yeah, I mean, if they're a dick, you know, or something like that. And they're like, take it or leave it. Some people love me. Some people hate me. It's kind of thing. And brother, it doesn't bother you that people hate you because of how you are, you know, kind of thing.

• 1:19:54Jocko Willink?

  That's an indicator.

• 1:19:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, so it's kind of weird. I mean, I dig it, you know, be you for sure, but um, I think that's something. It's not nothing if people hate you.

• 1:20:04Jocko Willink?

  Let's do one more question.

• 1:20:06Speaker 01

  As a person in a leadership position, what should I do if I consistently notice one of my guys motivating the team and leading them successfully during projects and missions better than I can? The completion of the mission being the top priority, would it be better for me to back down and let my counterpart lead? Which will benefit the company and its employees?

• 1:20:30Speaker 01

  And how will I regain my status among them?

• 1:20:33Jocko Willink?

  I think this one's actually pretty straightforward. If you've got someone that's doing a better job leading, then let them lead. Let them lead. Give them some room. Learn from them. Support them the best you can. And the best way you can most likely support them is by getting out of the way and letting them do what they're doing and then get them the support that they need. And what this is going to give you the benefit of is now you can, instead of looking down and in and managing your team, you can look up and out and forward and see what is going on in the future and prep the battlefield in, in the future or prep the next market area or look for recruit, you know, you can move, you can lead, you can actually lead.

• 1:21:17Jocko Willink?

  And let that, you know, young buck handle the things that are going on tactically on the battlefield right now. I used to say this to the, to the SEAL leadership. I used to say, hey, the enlisted SEAL leaders handle the problem that is in their face right now, the tactical problem that's in their face right now. The officer should be looking at what we're gonna do next. That's kind of a really simple. It's not always like that, but that's a real good starting point. And so in this position, I'd be like, oh, I got a young buck that's coming up and leading well. Cool. That's gonna allow me, allow me to look up and out and be ready to move forward and plan the next move.

• 1:21:55Jocko Willink?

  Now, as far as regaining your status as a leader, you won't really need to, because if you do this properly, you'll be seen as a leader who is confident enough to let a subordinate leader step up and lead while I go and move forward. The, you'd have to regain if you were there shutting this person down and trying to micromanage and doing a worse job than everyone on the team knows that that guy could do a good job. Let him do it.

• 1:22:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true.

• 1:22:26Jocko Willink?

  That's about confidence. Really. It's about like, do you have, are you confident and are you secure in your leadership?

• 1:22:34Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. To step aside.

• 1:22:36Jocko Willink?

  To step aside and let someone do it. Yes, no problem. We love it. Hey, you're, you're really good at this. Cool. You, you step in there and do it. I have no problem with that. Well, you get the occasional person that's like, oh, look, Jocko's, Jocko's letting that guy do it because he doesn't know what he's doing. Occasionally, yeah. One out of 20 people will be that big Mr. Negative. That's fine. Yeah. You know, then, then what's cool is when you're on the outside, guess what you are? When you're, when you let someone else run the team, guess what you have? Guess what you have?

• 1:23:02Speaker 01

  Detachment.

• 1:23:02Jocko Willink?

  Yes. Oh, Echo Charles. Yes, you have detachment. And so now you're gonna be able to see things that even that leader that's better than you can't see. And then when you come in, you're gonna look like the tactical genius because you point something out, but they didn't notice because they were in the firefight.

• 1:23:15Speaker 01

  Tactical genius.

• 1:23:17Jocko Willink?

  It's the way it works.

• 1:23:18Speaker 01

  Things good. Yeah, that's hard to do that. Man, when someone's doing better than you, you know? Oh, man. Yeah. That's right. I mean, why you say it takes confidence is what you said?

• 1:23:29Jocko Willink?

  This is, it's such a good example of keeping your ego in check. Because what you just said, everyone feels that. And when you feel that, that's when you go, oh, cool. My ego's getting out of control. It's fine. Just put it in check and let this person lead and I'll move, you know, check out what we're gonna do next. I'll look ahead on the battlefield.

• 1:23:44Speaker 01

  Shoot, I'm trying to think like how you said there occasionally there will be a guy who'll be like, oh, he doesn't know what he's doing. So he's letting me. I I I've been in that situation where my boss, actually, I've been the guy who my supervisor like said, oh, yeah, you like you handle, you take this, you know, you got this one kind of thing. And I'm like, yeah, you're doing it because you don't know what you're doing kind of thing. And everyone knew that. And so I've been in that situation where I'm looking at him, but

• 1:24:10Jocko Willink?

  Now, think about this. Think about if instead of him just saying, hey, you go on and run this thing. Think if he would have said, hey, Echo, you're really good at this. You're better than I am. You step up, run this. I'm gonna be over here looking where we're going next. What would you think then?

• 1:24:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. So he's actually said that before, like a couple of times, and every single time it made me feel way better, like um, even the, I mean, of course,

• 1:24:31Jocko Willink?

  The truth will set you free.

• 1:24:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I feel like if I was one of the, you know, one of the team guys on the teams thinking that, I think I wouldn't think that if, yeah, if he did that kind of stuff, or if, or if, as long as he didn't act like,

• 1:24:46Jocko Willink?

  This is the counterintuitive part of leadership. This is the thing that's counterintuitive. You think that if you hide it,

• 1:24:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:24:54Jocko Willink?

  It's better. And the better thing to do is be like, hey, Echo is really good at this. He's better than I am. And he's gonna step up and run this thing. And people are like, oh, wow, Jock was super confident in his leadership. They don't, they don't verbalize in their head that, but they,

• 1:25:05Speaker 01

  That's just the feeling.

• 1:25:06Jocko Willink?

  That's the feeling that they get. Yeah. They're like, yeah. No, Jock, Jock doesn't care who's running this thing. He's just, yeah, we're good.

• 1:25:12Speaker 01

  It's good, man. Yeah.

• 1:25:14Jocko Willink?

  So watch out for that. Just keep your ego in check.

• 1:25:18Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 1:25:18Jocko Willink?

  At all times. All right. Let's have a podcast that's less than 19 hours long. So

• 1:25:29Jocko Willink?

  how can you maybe give us a hand with helping be prepared? And getting better in our lives. Echo Charles, go.

• 1:25:38Speaker 01

  Be happy to do no problem. Okay, so we're working out. We're all working out.

• 1:25:42Jocko Willink?

  Yes, 100%.

• 1:25:43Speaker 01

  Right? Every day, are we working out every day? So you don't have, not necessarily have to, but a lot, we'll say.

• 1:25:48Jocko Willink?

  I recommend it.

• 1:25:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. We're not working out and then cruising for months. So we're all working out. Look, we're gonna supplement our stuff. Jocko does have supplements now. That was kind of the plan. The plan has come to fruition.

• 1:26:03Speaker 01

  That's the word, right? Fruition?

• 1:26:04Jocko Willink?

  It is.

• 1:26:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, so.

• 1:26:06Jocko Willink?

  You used it correctly.

• 1:26:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, see? Alright, there you go. So krill oil, right? That's the the main one for our joints. Actually, it's good for your eyes and brain, too, by the way. So worry, I'm not saying don't worry about your eyesight anymore after you take this. I'm saying you can worry less, I'll tell you that. That's good. So yeah, Jocko Super Krill is what it's called and Joint Warfare. That one's obviously for the joints specifically, but I'm sure there's all kinds of other benefits.

• 1:26:33Jocko Willink?

  I've noticed my, I have an injured arm. It's healing up quickly.

• 1:26:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:38Jocko Willink?

  Like, like noticeably each day. And I have to attribute, because I've had this similar injuries before, right? It's an arm lock, right? And as bad as this one was.

• 1:26:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:51Jocko Willink?

  Little noises.

• 1:26:53Jocko Willink?

  It it is noticeably, I'm attributing that to joint warfare.

• 1:26:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, and Dean told, the other day, I, Dean told me exactly like, like his version of what happened. And I know that, I know that move that he shows, and even when he shows it on me.

• 1:27:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:09Speaker 01

  Dean's one of these guys where I think sometimes he doesn't know his own strength. And what he's doing is super effective, by the way. It's like, it's a kimura. That's what he's doing. It's like.

• 1:27:18Jocko Willink?

  The, the, what he did to me was a straight arm lock.

• 1:27:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that's what it ends up being.

• 1:27:24Jocko Willink?

  Just so everyone knows, I'll just make this real clear. This was a, this was an accident. Dean was actually showing a move. He wasn't even, we weren't rolling. It wasn't live. He was showing a move and he's shown 10,000 moves with me as the dummy. And I've shown many, many moves on Dean with Dean as the dummy. And he got this position. I had just arrived. And and I don't know if that makes it worse or not, but I was definitely, I was cold, you know? So I was cold and no warm up and he was showing a move. So he's just, oh yeah, I want to show this thing. I think he was like, you know, Jocko's got a good defense here, so you gotta be ready if the guy does this. And then he's like, as he was saying that, I think he thought I was going to attempt this movement.

• 1:28:08Jocko Willink?

  And I didn't, and he just, he just, and he made in the arm. So is that pretty much how he debriefed it to you?

• 1:28:14Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, but he, he, the thing, the reason I understood it more.

• 1:28:18Jocko Willink?

  Because Dean's like a nice guy, you know, he feels all bad. And and, you know, I mean, it's, it's a bummer.

• 1:28:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:23Jocko Willink?

  But it's not like he, I know, I know for a fact, he didn't mean to do it, but whatever.

• 1:28:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's one of the, it's basically how he explained it and he's done this move, like I said, as me as the dummy. And it hurts, by the way.

• 1:28:35Jocko Willink?

  You know what's funny? He goes, he goes, I didn't realize you weren't that flexible. I go, bro, it's my elbow. There's no flexibility in an elbow.

• 1:28:44Speaker 01

  Well, it must've been a miscommunication, just like I said, because this is what it was. It's like, okay, when you're going for the kimura from a cross site and the guy straightens his arm, you want to get his arm behind his back. Bend his arm, basically, and behind his back. That's what he said. And that's a move he's had shown to me before. And it's one of his things, his tricks. And he, he said that like when he did it. I don't know. It was just like a miscommunication, you know, like if you, and if you do it, it's kind of like you're just, it's just leverage to bend your arm behind your back, but dang, and it was, it wasn't your shoulder that jammed, it was your elbow.

• 1:29:13Jocko Willink?

  And I'm thankful about that. Because shoulder injuries are worse than elbow. Elbows is like the heal, you know? And even this one, I can do like, I'm, I'm, it'll be fine. No factor.

• 1:29:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. You got the joint warfare?

• 1:29:24Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Yep. I attribute the quick healing.

• 1:29:28Jocko Willink?

  To joint warfare. Krill oil, which I always take, but joint warfare.

• 1:29:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's, and these are one of those ones that is kind of like, man.

• 1:29:38Speaker 01

  I wish I would've, it would've saved me a lot of pain in the past, you know? Like if your joints are just holding up, it's more of a big deal than.

• 1:29:44Jocko Willink?

  It's good. And it's like I said, I mean, I had my shoulder where I couldn't do muscle ups for like six months. And then when we came out with the first like experimental, no, like the second experimental, uh, joint warfare. And I was on, I was like, all of a sudden I was doing muscle ups again.

• 1:30:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:01Jocko Willink?

  Which is, that's awesome, right? That's awesome.

• 1:30:05Speaker 01

  Doing muscle ups, period, is awesome. Cause I haven't, dang, muscle ups, I haven't done muscle ups for decades.

• 1:30:11Jocko Willink?

  Really?

• 1:30:12Speaker 01

  My whole life. I don't think I've ever done a muscle up before.

• 1:30:15Jocko Willink?

  In four decades?

• 1:30:15Speaker 01

  I think I've tried to do a muscle up probably like three times.

• 1:30:18Jocko Willink?

  We'll go as soon as we get done, we'll go do some muscle ups.

• 1:30:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, teach me the technique.

• 1:30:21Jocko Willink?

  It's just technique. Well, there's technique. There's a little bit of strength, obviously.

• 1:30:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:24Jocko Willink?

  But if you know the false grip, which is this main, the main technique that needs to be learned, keep it in tight to your chest, pull it to your sternum, boom.

• 1:30:34Jocko Willink?

  Throw, throw your chest forward and you're there.

• 1:30:35Speaker 01

  Alright, cool. New skill. Muscle up. But yeah, if you want this joint warfare and Jocko super krill, it is at originmaine.com. Maine like the state. Originmaine.com. Also at Origin Maine is where you can get your gees. Oh, but before the gees, I know. This is new, so I can't tell. This new supplement called the discipline. Pre-mission, pre-workout, pre-

• 1:31:00Jocko Willink?

  Life.

• 1:31:01Speaker 01

  Activity, pre-life supplement. Um, that's a good one. Cognitive enhancements in there as well as physical.

• 1:31:10Jocko Willink?

  Pre-mission?

• 1:31:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:11Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna need your brain and your body.

• 1:31:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:14Jocko Willink?

  Boom.

• 1:31:14Speaker 01

  For the mission. Boom. That's the one to take. Yeah, get down. That one's good, by the way. Tastes good too, surprisingly. Jocko actually made it taste good.

• 1:31:21Jocko Willink?

  Well, because the big thing you gotta watch out for is, you know, we don't wanna spike our insulin level with sugar.

• 1:31:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:29Jocko Willink?

  But we have monk fruit, which is the sweetener and, and monk fruit tastes good, delish. And, and it also has some, some positive impact on your physiology as well. So double. Two, what we say there? We say two birds, one stone.

• 1:31:51Speaker 01

  In the industry, right on.

• 1:31:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it does taste good.

• 1:31:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's good.

• 1:31:56Jocko Willink?

  Lemon lime flavor.

• 1:31:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, there you go. Get down. But yeah, that one too. Originmaine.com. Real good. Also at Origin Maine, like I was gonna say, is gees for all the people who have been asking Dave Burke today, called me today about gees. Like what up with the gees? I'm getting my gee and all this stuff.

• 1:32:12Jocko Willink?

  Wait, was he even questioning?

• 1:32:14Speaker 01

  He was actually asking more. Well, yeah, he did. He was like, what gi should I get? But then I was like, well, okay. So you go origin and he's like, no, no, I know that. But which one?

• 1:32:26Speaker 01

  The traditional gi sizes, just like A1, A2, A3, boom, you get it. This one is kinda, it's more suited for you.

• 1:32:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Dave's a skinny.

• 1:32:39Jocko Willink?

  I got a picture. I gotta post this picture. I got a picture of Dave Burke and me. The commander, uh, so I'm the commander of TU Bruiser. He's the commander of Lightning Six, his, uh, Anglico team. And I got a picture of us in Ramadi together on a rooftop. And we're both asleep.

• 1:33:00Jocko Willink?

  I don't, I don't even know when it was taken, but it's pretty awesome. And it shows you like, like, you know, it's, you know, it's awesome. It's like, we're both asleep. We both have all of our gear on, sitting outside on a rooftop asleep.

• 1:33:11Speaker 01

  So what is that? Like you, you just kinda gotta catch your sleep when you can, kind of. Let me just catch this quick.

• 1:33:17Jocko Willink?

  Probably we, my guess is we had moved into a position. We'd stayed there. We'd, a clearance was going on. The clearance was done and now we were kind of in a standby situation. And we're just like, now we get a chance to sleep. Cause before we'd go in the field, you'd be asleep, you'd be awake for basically like 24 hours. And then you go in the field. Matter of fact, sometimes it's like, when you got in the field is when you got your first sleep. Like after you get in the field and then you get your four hour, whatever, three hours, someone, you know, you get your head down and you get some sleep finally.

• 1:33:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:50Jocko Willink?

  And so there's me and Dave Burke racked out.

• 1:33:53Speaker 01

  Bro, and it's not like you're, like I used to have three, four hours. I always, especially after hearing you guys talk, it's like, man, it's not like you're coming home from a hard day of work and you know, now you're, you've clocked out and now you have some time to. Settle down, watch the news and go sleep for the night. It's not like that, you know?

• 1:34:11Jocko Willink?

  Gonna catch some.

• 1:34:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're gonna catch it where you can. So dang, yeah. It's crazy. So it's not that you guys are just falling asleep on the job, literally.

• 1:34:19Jocko Willink?

  No, no, no, no, not at all.

• 1:34:21Speaker 01

  You gotta catch some, some shut eye so you can perform.

• 1:34:23Jocko Willink?

  What that means is we were probably on the tail end of a operation that we had conducted and we were now like in a stand down mode and maybe we were probably getting ready to move to another, you know, another quadrant, another sector. And we were just catching some rack ops. But it's an awesome, it's an awesome picture because it just tells you how like tired you, you know? We're both sitting in chairs, all of our gear on, holding our guns and we're asleep, both of us. It's awesome.

• 1:34:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. Bad. Nonetheless, Dave Burke, yeah, he called me. Nonetheless, that story doesn't matter. You wanna get a gi, you still looking to get a gi, you wanna get another gi? You get it from originmaine.com, made in America. Hundred percent made, made in America. From the seeds of the cotton. I said it. Seeds of the cotton, all the way up to the gi you're wearing.

• 1:35:07Jocko Willink?

  People like when you say cotton?

• 1:35:08Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:35:09Jocko Willink?

  And they like when you say important.

• 1:35:11Speaker 01

  Important.

• 1:35:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. And mountain.

• 1:35:15Jocko Willink?

  You forgot about mountain.

• 1:35:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, bruh, cuz you and I feel weird if I say mountain.

• 1:35:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:20Speaker 01

  Mountain or important. It's like I'm not.

• 1:35:23Jocko Willink?

  Important. For me, that's just like a on the end.

• 1:35:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, yeah, no, I dig. It doesn't sound weird when you do it. It sounds, it feels weird when I do it. Nonetheless, yeah. Originmaine.com. That's the, go there. They have a lot of cool stuff and it's all made in America. That's the good part. It's all made in America.

• 1:35:40Speaker 01

  Also, four workout stuff. Kettlebells, battle ropes, maces. You're switching over your workout, you're doing creative stuff? Boom, on it. On it.com slash Jocko, that's where you go. The kettlebells, the artistic one, primal bells, demon bells, not demon bells, zombie bells is what they're called. Um, and Primal bells, wait, Primal bells?

• 1:36:02Jocko Willink?

  Legend.

• 1:36:03Speaker 01

  Legend, yeah, Planet of the Pig from, those are the cool ones. I bought my daughter one a few months ago, by the way. She gets after it. Nonetheless, that's where you get a lot of cool stuff on there, a lot of good info as well. On it.com slash Jocko, that's the one. Also, when you're buying books that we occasionally, and occasionally meaning very often, review on this podcast, go to JacoPodcast.com, the, the page, little top menu there, click on books on the podcast, click through that, it's a good way to support. That's where you buy them. We have them organized for you. So, you know, you don't get lost or whatever. Listed by episode.

• 1:36:39Speaker 01

  Click through there, get them. Amazon, Amazon Prime, next day delivery, best way to do it, in my opinion. Also, subscribe to the podcast if you have not already on iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher, Spotify. Wait, can you subscribe on Spotify? I think you can.

• 1:36:55Jocko Willink?

  I don't know.

• 1:36:56Speaker 01

  I don't know either, I'm not on Spotify, but if you are on Spotify and you can subscribe, subscribe. Also on YouTube, video version of this podcast, also excerpts from this podcast.

• 1:37:14Speaker 01

  The benefits of excerpts, I think, are kinda self-explanatory, and I've explained them plenty of times, so I'm not gonna do it this time. Um, but yeah, you can take your little, uh, lessons individually, so you don't have to listen to the whole podcast. Nonetheless, subscribe, good way to support. Also, Jocko has a store, it's called Jocko's Store. jockostore.com. This is where you can get the shirts, Discipline Equals Freedom. A shirt with Jocko's head on it, with the word "good" written backwards. I'm not even gonna say why it's written backwards, but it is written backwards on purpose, because people have been emailing you.

• 1:37:52Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, if you see a shirt with the "good" written forward, it's a fake shirt.

• 1:37:57Speaker 01

  It's a knockoff, it's what's called a counterfeit knockoff. It's bad. Actually, um, somebody posted a picture of, I think, I forget what it's, it's a Jocko sum, it's one of those, you know those, okay, there, so there's- Like companies.

• 1:38:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:38:11Speaker 01

  That they go, you know, they form stores on Amazon.

• 1:38:14Jocko Willink?

  And then you see a little something.

• 1:38:18Speaker 01

  And though they they print shirts, they're like low quality shirts.

• 1:38:22Jocko Willink?

  I saw one that said, you wouldn't understand it.

• 1:38:24Speaker 01

  That's the one I saw.

• 1:38:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:26Speaker 01

  And they're like, eh, you know, I could, and it's cool.

• 1:38:28Jocko Willink?

  Hey, man.

• 1:38:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, good.

• 1:38:30Jocko Willink?

  You're supporting some random dude out there.

• 1:38:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I, to me, the quote was, I would never put that quote on there. I don't think you would. Doesn't seem like something you would put.

• 1:38:42Speaker 01

  You know, kind of whack, you know, the guy looked cool in it and I dig it, but um.

• 1:38:47Jocko Willink?

  Good intention.

• 1:38:48Speaker 01

  Good intention, for sure, hundred percent, and I'm signing on in that way. But I think, again, it's a situation where these companies, I'm assuming it's a company, I'm sure it's not just one dude, but it's companies, they get trendy stuff and they just.

• 1:39:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:02Speaker 01

  Offer them for print and on Amazon or wherever.

• 1:39:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:07Speaker 01

  And that's different.

• 1:39:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:09Speaker 01

  That's what they call counterfeit knockoff.

• 1:39:12Jocko Willink?

  Jocko store and then you're definitely supporting the podcast.

• 1:39:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, Jocko store dot com, that's it. And there's some origin stuff, like back in origin Maine, they got the your rash guard. You know, so origin stuff, hundred percent in the game, you know.

• 1:39:24Jocko Willink?

  The podcast.

• 1:39:25Speaker 01

  Legit. Other than that, it's it's gonna be kind of hard to find, oh no, the tea, Jocko White Tea.

• 1:39:32Jocko Willink?

  Supporting the podcast.

• 1:39:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, but anything else is gonna be knockoffs and you know, kind of find that every once in a while. So just beware, if you care, if you care, I dig it, because to me, if if someone was wearing, it's a Jocko thing, you wouldn't understand, they're like, hey, good evening or something like that, I'd be done, I'd be my new friend.

• 1:39:46Jocko Willink?

  We're still in the game.

• 1:39:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I dig it, hundred percent either way, but I think that's more just info, you know.

• 1:39:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:52Speaker 01

  To be utilized.

• 1:39:53Jocko Willink?

  Information.

• 1:39:54Speaker 01

  Yes. So when I get back to Jocko store, there's there's women's stuff on there, this one equals free t-shirts, hoodies, hats. I don't think I

• 1:40:02Jocko Willink?

  Beanies?

• 1:40:03Speaker 01

  I didn't finish the beanies yet, but a meeting on Monday.

• 1:40:05Jocko Willink?

  You know that it's winter's almost over, right?

• 1:40:08Speaker 01

  You know, it's one of those things, you know?

• 1:40:10Jocko Willink?

  Okay, just checking.

• 1:40:10Speaker 01

  We're trying.

• 1:40:11Jocko Willink?

  We're over here making sure you are aware of the seasons. They're the same every year.

• 1:40:15Speaker 01

  Maybe I'll do like a spring beanie. I don't know, you know, uh, some rash guards.

• 1:40:19Jocko Willink?

  Especially right now, since it's negative forty degrees in New England and Minnesota and Oklahoma. It's freezing out there in Michigan, yeah.

• 1:40:27Speaker 01

  You know, man. Sorry, guys, they're coming though, it's all good. Um, also rash guards, there's a new rash guard. Sodium one, the essence of jujitsu, small action, big reaction, you know? And that got pointed out to me after I started wearing it, by the way.

• 1:40:44Jocko Willink?

  Oh, so someone applied a layer?

• 1:40:46Speaker 01

  A layer, yeah.

• 1:40:47Jocko Willink?

  They applied a layer?

• 1:40:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, black belt, it was Keeling Taylor who did it. And he was like, oh, what's your rash guard say? Says it's a small action, big reaction. And he goes, the essence of jujitsu.

• 1:40:57Jocko Willink?

  Oh, it is.

• 1:40:59Speaker 01

  You know, like the whole leverage inefficiency thing? I was like, dang, bro, you're, you're deep.

• 1:41:04Jocko Willink?

  J- speaking of judo, Keeling, judo Keeling.

• 1:41:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, he's black belt judo as well.

• 1:41:08Jocko Willink?

  Judo player.

• 1:41:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Legit, nonetheless, new rash guard out, um, it's cool, it's cool. Uh, the worry kid rash guards are out and in circulation in the wild, big time.

• 1:41:19Jocko Willink?

  In the wild, not in the, I haven't seen the person in the wild, but I've seen them.

• 1:41:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:41:22Jocko Willink?

  Virtually.

• 1:41:23Speaker 01

  Yes, virtually.

• 1:41:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:25Speaker 01

  Cyber, cyber, in the cyber space, wild.

• 1:41:28Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:41:29Speaker 01

  Pictures, if you will. Yeah, that's cool when people do that, send you the pictures. Legit, nonetheless, yeah, jocko store dot com, that's a good one. Also, psychological warfare, of course, if you didn't know what that is, I'm gonna tell you. It's an album with tracks.

• 1:41:46Speaker 01

  Jocko track, and this is what it's for. If you didn't know, I'm gonna explain it, this is what it's for. On your path to, I wanna make it like concise, okay, here's a good way to say it. On your path to greatness, it's a weapon against weakness. It's kinda concise, I'm still working on it, I just made it up just now.

• 1:42:05Jocko Willink?

  Concise yet cheesy somehow.

• 1:42:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:07Jocko Willink?

  Path to greatness, that's so cheesy, don't say it again, bro.

• 1:42:11Speaker 01

  All right, yeah, see, see, this is the, what do you call it, the creative, um, process? Yeah, this is like.

• 1:42:16Jocko Willink?

  No, that was just cheesy, there was no process.

• 1:42:18Speaker 01

  Live on the podcast, it's the worst, worst deal. All right, well, hey, look, on your path, how about that? On the path, you're on the path, we're on the path, we're working out, we're working out, we're getting up early, some of us, most of us, some of us, getting up early.

• 1:42:31Speaker 01

  Sticking with the dietary guidelines that can keep us in the game. Hopefully, we better be. Nonetheless, every once in a while you'll hit that little roadblock. Little speed bump, speed bump, not roadblock, speed bump. Moment of weakness, all it is is a distraction. Like when you get hungry, you're on a fast or you're on, you know, like a really solid diet and maybe it's new or something.

• 1:42:55Speaker 01

  You're thinking long term.

• 1:42:58Speaker 01

  Hopefully, you're thinking long term. Long term win. My diet's gonna bring me my workout. My whole thing is gonna bring me to this long term goal. Right? You keep your eyes on that goal, you're gonna stay on the path. You get distracted by the fact that you're hungry at one moment. The fact that this thing right here. Donuts, whatever. Tastes good. You're distracted by that. If you keep your eyes on the long term goal, you won't be distracted. That doesn't mean anything. Yeah, I know I'm hungry right now. I'm supposed to be hungry right now. I didn't eat yet. Of course, donuts taste good. They always taste good. Has nothing to has nothing to do with this path. That's why these are distractions. This psychological warfare is, it's like a little helper to keep you from being distracted.

• 1:43:42Speaker 01

  And it's Jocko's telling us why we should not be distracted.

• 1:43:47Jocko Willink?

  All right. Thank you. That was psychological warfare.

• 1:43:51Speaker 01

  It is. That's exactly what it is. That's the best way to explain it.

• 1:43:54Jocko Willink?

  You just explained it thoroughly.

• 1:43:55Speaker 01

  I feel like you don't, you know, you know why you don't understand the value? Because you don't listen to it.

• 1:43:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I do.

• 1:44:01Speaker 01

  No, because you've never, yeah, like, like you having to use it, I think, is like the kind, oh, you're just gonna think to yourself. That's kind of it. It's just part of the game, you know, for us.

• 1:44:10Jocko Willink?

  I have listened to it, but I don't like utilize it on the regular.

• 1:44:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. Try utilize something and get that little win with it. You're, Brad, you're gonna be like, okay, this thing works. This thing is legit, just like jujitsu.

• 1:44:21Jocko Willink?

  It's an album on iTunes, Amazon Music, Google Play, that type of stuff. That's where you can get it. Speaking of Amazon, also on Amazon, you can get something called Jocko White Tea, which might sound like it's a simple drink. You know, you put water, you put some tea in the water. What you don't know is that once you drink the tea, you now have a guaranteed deadlift of 8,000 pounds. So drink Jocko White Tea and deadlift more. We got some books. Way of the Warrior Kid, Jujitsu.

• 1:44:54Jocko Willink?

  Studying, reading, working out. It's for kids, but adults can get something out of it too. Somebody posted a straight up Rocky training montage, but it was like an eight-year-old kid getting after it. And it was all, he's like sitting intensely reading Warrior Kid and then he's hitting mitts and he's intensely reading Warrior Kid and then he's doing pushups. So yeah, you can get that book, Way the Warrior Kid. The next Warrior Kid book is coming out April 28th. I'll tell y'all when it comes out and is available for preorder.

• 1:45:26Speaker 01

  What's the name? What's the name? Can you tell us?

• 1:45:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the name is, the name is Way the Warrior Kid, Mark's Mission.

• 1:45:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, Mark, Mark learned some new lessons. I'll read some excerpts from it on the podcast in the coming months. Just, you know, some little tastes of Mark's mission. Extreme Ownership, of course. That is the book that I wrote with my brother Leif Babin. Combat Leadership for Business and Life. How to Take Ownership, which I talked a little bit about today. Discipline Equals Freedom, The Field Manual. How to Get After It. Mentally, Physically. Get Some. If you want the audio version of that, it is not on Audible.

• 1:46:14Jocko Willink?

  It is on MP3, iTunes, Amazon Music, Google Play and other MP3 platforms.

• 1:46:23Jocko Willink?

  Echelon Front is our leadership consulting company. I had a guy, was talking to a potential client company. Was like, hey, can you help us establish a culture of leadership inside of our company? I'm like, that is, that's what we do. So if you need help with leadership at your company, reach out to us. It's me, it's Leif Babin, JP Donnell, Dave Burke. Emails info at echelonfront.com or you can go to our website echelonfront.com. If you want a keynote speech, you don't need to go to a speakers bureau. You can just contact us at echelonfront.com. That's the more efficient, effective way to make it happen.

• 1:47:08Jocko Willink?

  On top of that, we have the muster. We talked about it a little bit today. Sure.

• 1:47:15Jocko Willink?

  The muster is a leadership symposium. Where we talk about leadership, we train leadership pragmatically, tools. You will be, you will, this is pretty cool. You will be a better leader when you come out of the muster. You will be 100%. I don't know if you'll be 100% better of a leader. Right. You will have 100% chance or 100% chance of becoming a better leader. How much? I'm not 100% sure on that figure. But you will definitely be a better leader. And when we got done, I think I've talked about this before, but when we got done in Austin and we were at jujitsu and we were teaching jujitsu and I was like, this is such a good deal.

• 1:48:00Jocko Willink?

  To get the information that comes at the muster. To have that opportunity to learn these lessons from the battlefield that you can then take and apply to your business and your life. And on top of that, like the icing on the cake is going to jujitsu and getting an introduction to that. So the muster, it's been awesome. It's been awesome to see how it's affected people afterwards that have changed their lives from coming to the muster. So it's awesome. Come and get some at the muster. It is this year, we're only doing two. One is going to be in Washington DC, May 17th and 18th. Then there's going to be San Francisco, October 17th and 18th.

• 1:48:44Jocko Willink?

  We have had four of these events up until now. They all sold out. These will sell out. So if you want to go, a lot of times when people, when companies, companies have bureaucracies inside of them. And so they're trying to get the approval for the, you know, hey, we, we need eight tickets and they're trying to run that through the chain of command and get the funding for the eight tickets and blah, blah, blah, blah. And we've had companies that have started that process too late and then we sell out and we're sitting here saying, hey, sorry, the next muster is in six months. You can come then. You know what I mean? So get busy now. Takes a while to get through your bureaucratic system at your company to get your team sent to the muster. We'll see you there. Extreme ownership.com is how you can register.

• 1:49:30Jocko Willink?

  And if you want to contact, maybe me, maybe Echo, if you want to share something with us, you have some kind of question, you have some kind of an answer, you have some kind of a comment you want to make, we're actually available on the interwebs, on Twitter, on Instagram, and on that other one. It's called the Facebook. Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink. And finally, thank you for listening to the show. Thank you for supporting the show. Thank you for spreading the word.

• 1:50:10Jocko Willink?

  And for those of you that serve, thanks for your service. Those of you that protect, thanks for your protection. And for those that have fallen,

• 1:50:25Jocko Willink?

  those that we never got to say goodbye to,

• 1:50:31Jocko Willink?

  those that we never got to thank, to all of you.

• 1:50:40Jocko Willink?

  Thank you.

• 1:50:42Jocko Willink?

  And goodbye.

• 1:50:47Jocko Willink?

  And until next time, this is Echo and Jocko.

• 1:50:53Jocko Willink?

  Out.