211. Ramit and Cassandra open up: “Our real money fights (and what we learned)”

In this rare and intimate episode, Ramit takes the hot seat alongside his wife, Cassandra, as they’re interviewed by their close friend Julie Nguyen. Together, Ramit and Cass pull back the curtain on how they navigate money behind the scenes—from prenup negotiations and separate finances to the regular money meetings that keep them aligned. They open up about the challenges they've faced as a couple and reveal how, despite Ramit's career, they’re just as susceptible to money issues as any other couple on this podcast. This conversation is an honest look at what it really takes to build a true financial partnership—and a marriage that lasts. This episode is brought to you by: Facet | Facet is waiving their $250 enrollment fee for new annual members, and for my audience, Facet is offering $300 into your brokerage account if you invest and maintain $5,000 within your first 90 days. Head to https://facet.com/ramit to learn more about which membership option is best for you. Netsuite | Download the free e-book 'Navigating Global Trade: Three Insights for Leaders' at https://netsuite.com/ramit ZocDoc | Download the ZocDoc app for FREE at https://zocdoc.com/ramit then find and book a top-rated doctor today. DeleteMe | If you want to get your personal information removed from the web, go to https://joindeleteme.com/ramit for 20% off. Fabric by Gerber Life | Join the thousands of parents who trust Fabric to protect their family. Apply today in just minutes at https://meetfabric.com/ramit. Links mentioned in this episode • Order my new book: Money for Couples • Follow Julie Connect with Ramit • Get Money Coaching with Ramit • Download the Conscious Spending Plan • Listen to my book—now on Audible • Get my New York Times best-selling book • Get my no-numbers journal • Other episodes • Instagram • Twitter • YouTube If you and your partner have a money issue and you want my help, I occasionally select a couple to work with, free of charge. Apply for my help here.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ramit Sethi?

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• 0:43Ramit Sethi?

  and you can join today at iwt.com/100k.

• 0:50Ramit Sethi?

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• 1:32Ramit Sethi?

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• 2:00Ramit Sethi?

  Cass underplays how frustrated she was. You were really frustrated.

• 2:04Speaker 01

  Oh, it [__] me off. It really makes my blood boil.

• 2:07Ramit Sethi?

  I remember that moment where like the blood leaves your face and I realized like I violated my own rule from chapter nine of my own book where I say, "Talk about it early," and it was true.

• 2:17Speaker 01

  I think of the things that we've gone through in our marriage and it's been really tough sometimes.

• 2:22Ramit Sethi?

  It was pretty hard. It was hard because I'm like, why are we not combining our finances?

• 2:27Speaker 01

  I wanted to do it on my own, to prove to myself and to prove to Ramit, like, I'm fine on my own.

• 2:33Speaker 02

  Are there any recurring themes to things that you guys regularly disagree on when it comes to money?

• 2:39Speaker 01

  Lighten up on the rules.

• 2:41Speaker 02

  Ooh.

• 2:41Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, that's never gonna happen.

• 2:43Speaker 01

  Times when we have had fights and then the next morning we have a money meeting, I'm like, oh, this [__] money meeting.

• 2:48Ramit Sethi?

  We have our own challenges, years into getting married, and it's hard.

• 2:53Speaker 02

  We've been joking over the last few days about what your worst nightmare would be on this podcast.

• 2:57Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, what is it? Oh, is it happening right now? Oh, my God.

• 3:00Speaker 02

  Welcome to the Money for Couples Show. I am your host today, Julie Nguyen, and today's guests are Ramit and Cass.

• 3:08Speaker 01

  Let's go.

• 3:09Ramit Sethi?

  I'm way more nervous about this than any podcast I've ever done. I've been told I need to work on being more vulnerable. So today I'm doing something I have never done, and it made me really nervous, more nervous than shooting my Netflix show, more nervous than going on tour. On today's episode, my wife Cassandra and I are in the hot seat. We are being interviewed by my longtime friend, Julie Nguyen. We wanted to do this podcast because people are always asking how Cassandra and I manage our money. How do we actually do it behind the scenes? How does it work if you make different amounts of money, or you have a prenup, or you saw money differently? And for years, I've kept that private. But today, I'm in the hot seat, and so is Cassandra.

• 3:54Ramit Sethi?

  The truth is that our relationship, like a lot of yours, is complex. We come from different backgrounds. We kept separate finances for years. We both run our own businesses, different incomes, strong opinions about money, and a prenup. We've got a lot of things to talk about. But this episode is not just about the hard stuff and the differences in how we see money. It's also about how to bring those differences together, how you can learn and laugh and mess up and still stay connected. So today... In part so that I can be more vulnerable with you, I handed over the mic. Julie is one of my best friends. She was also a roommate. She knows all of my embarrassing stories.

• 4:38Ramit Sethi?

  She's also known Cassandra since we met. So, let's get into it.

• 4:43Speaker 01

  Julie, you have known Ramit a very long time.

• 4:47Ramit Sethi?

  We have a long history, like friends, classmates, roommates, professional contacts, all of it. And yeah, it's been awesome.

• 4:56Speaker 02

  It feels like just yesterday you were recording these YouTube videos in the bedroom, like right next to mine.

• 5:01Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 5:01Speaker 02

  And every time I couldn't find my makeup mirror, okay, I was like trying to do my makeup. I would go in and it would be on Ramit's desk because it had like a vanity light on it. And that's what he used to light those YouTube videos. Are there any recurring themes to things that you guys regularly disagree on when it comes to money?

• 5:20Ramit Sethi?

  Wow, good question.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  I think one is around the rules.

• 5:24Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, like I'm more like.

• 5:26Speaker 01

  We set a rule, we keep it. And I'm like, you know, we're gonna have to revisit it sometimes and.

• 5:31Ramit Sethi?

  I'm like, what's that word? I never, I never heard that word.

• 5:34Speaker 01

  And it's okay if we like break the rule and stuff because sometimes we need to. So that's one.

• 5:39Ramit Sethi?

  I do think that you, you really like to blend money and feelings, money and where are we in our relationship?

• 5:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:50Ramit Sethi?

  And I think that shows up a lot. And for me, like, I'm just like, let's hit this number question that we have. Like, we need to answer this question about which account should this be in? And I think that both of us have like tried to meet in the middle and come up with creative solutions for it. Sometimes you really just need to talk about it.

• 6:06Speaker 01

  I don't think that's ever gonna change either. It's just one of those things, like it's not worth re-discussing all the time. And that's okay. But for me personally, they do coexist. And when times when we have had fights and then the next morning we have a money meeting, I'm like, oh, this money meeting, I don't want to have it right now, you know? And so it does, it will always just coexist for me. Whereas you can compartmentalize, yeah.

• 6:31Ramit Sethi?

  Also, I think there have been times, especially when I was writing my book, where I didn't, I'm supposed to like send the agenda out for the money meeting and I didn't. In fact, I let it go for like over a month sometimes. And Cass would bring it up like, hey, you're supposed to be in charge of this. You would never miss a meeting at work, ever. So why are you missing this meeting? When she told me, I was like, oh, you're right. Let me fix it. And I did fix it for a while, but then it went back. And then she brought it up again. And finally, I was like, very embarrassed because here I am writing a book about money for couples. And I'm not even following up by setting the freaking money meeting that I'm writing about. Yes, it's important to me.

• 7:14Ramit Sethi?

  Why am I not following through on this thing? I would never miss an equivalent meeting at work. And it's so crazy. The thing that I realized was our meetings were scheduled at like 7:00 PM. What work meeting am I scheduling at 7:00 PM? None, because by that time, we're tired or somebody had to go out for a dinner meeting or something like that. So I was like, okay, as crazy as this sounds, I think that one of the reasons is that we're not taking this seriously because it's at 7:00 PM. I'm not taking it. So can we move it? And she was like, okay. So we moved it to 9:00 AM on this one day. And like that, that is what it deserves. It deserves to be in business hours so that we are both fresh, ready to go.

• 7:58Ramit Sethi?

  We talked about what's in that meeting. We sort of simplified that, but it's the time that made the difference.

• 8:03Speaker 01

  And I think for me, because you had missed a few of them, like to the point where I could feel the resentment kind of building and because I took it personally, right? Because it's connected for me. And so at one point I was just like, okay, I've like addressed it with him. He's an adult. He can figure it out. And you did. So I had to kind of let you go off on your own and do it.

• 8:27Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 8:29Speaker 02

  I'm wondering, was there ever a money conversation you guys had that was the hardest one where maybe it almost tore you apart?

• 8:36Ramit Sethi?

  I'm sweating thinking about it right now. Yes.

• 8:38Speaker 01

  I think, what are you going to say? I was going to say prenup as well.

• 8:43Ramit Sethi?

  Prenup, first time I brought it up, I remember I had like talked to so many people, gotten advice, planned what I was gonna say, and I was very nervous about it. And you received it really well. I remember what you said, you know, hey, I wasn't expecting this, but I don't know much about it, but I'm willing to learn. I was like, wow, amazing. For me, I knew we were getting married. So I'm like, I'm not trying to negotiate this in a way that I come out like winning and she loses. It was like, we're in this together. So my natural inclination is I want to propose something that is so generous, there can be no question about what I want from this. And I remember, because I was like, I want you to never have to worry about money, because we don't have to worry about money. We get

• 9:27Ramit Sethi?

  this amazing opportunity to live our rich life and help our family and things like that. So, you know, lawyers put together this thing, and I was like, cool, like, this is gonna be great. It was not. And, and I was like shocked, because I'm like, whoa, and we're talking about big numbers. And we started going back and forth, and I was very confused, like, very hurt, because I'm like, I'm not trying to trick anybody here. And I think that that was when it started to get very difficult. And it all changed when you said, like, hey, this isn't really going well, let's go see somebody. And then we walked down the street to that therapist, just like we found them on Yelp. And that

• 10:09Ramit Sethi?

  question she asked us, like, how do you see money? And that really opened up conversations that we hadn't been able to have, because her, my answer was like, growth, of course, like, look, look at the compounding. And her answer was safety. I'm like, huh?

• 10:22Speaker 01

  I was like, I don't want to be possibly divorced, sitting outside of a house with rain coming down and dark clouds all over.

• 10:30Ramit Sethi?

  And I was like, I was like, look at these numbers. That's literally impossible. But in retrospect, you were not asking me to pull out a spreadsheet. You, you, you were feeling this. Looking back, I needed to listen to what you were saying. I should have been asking more questions. I should have used the freaking wheel of emotions, because I didn't know how to describe my feelings. I wasn't raised talking about my feelings. And you also needed to become more adept with numbers, and to be able to merge between feelings and

• 11:04Ramit Sethi?

  Numbers and logistics.

• 11:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I'll never forget something where Meade said to me during that time, you were like, "I really need you to get better at money." And I took that very seriously because, deep down inside, I was like, "I know I'm not that great at money, you know, I could get better." And so that's when I started reading the books, hired a coach, like journaling.

• 11:25Ramit Sethi?

  She hired a coach, I never even asked her who the coach was because I'm afraid if I find out who it is, I'm gonna be so [bleep] bad. Who is this coach who's talking about money psychology that you hired? But, in retrospect, that was totally the right move. You can't learn from somebody who you're talking to about this. You have to find your own way. And you did it. You put in tons of work. I remember you would lose your breath when we were talking about money.

• 11:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would physically feel it.

• 11:51Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, like anxious and stuff.

• 11:53Ramit Sethi?

  You would run out of breath.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 11:55Ramit Sethi?

  And that doesn't happen anymore.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  And I think a lot of our experiences from that kind of bled into our marriage. And until we started having those tougher conversations about like, "Why do you really feel that way?" and what's beneath that, we started to uncover. For me at least, it was a lot because of what happened in the prenup and how I felt at that time. And thinking back to the prenup, I feel like I was a completely different person then. I was more scarce with money, so I didn't think abundantly with like, "I can earn more, I can start a business, I can do this and that." And so I was like, "Okay, I need to keep what's mine and my, my, mine." And Ramit was always very like, "This is why I'm doing this." And he always explained why.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  And so the prenup, because I didn't grow up with anyone who had prenups around me, so I had to do my own research. And then the advice online is horrible for women as well. And so really kind of sifting through all of that info was tough. But, yeah, the prenup was really tough.

• 13:00Speaker 02

  We've been joking over the last few days about what your worst nightmare would be on this podcast.

• 13:06Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, what is it? Oh, is it happening right now?

• 13:08Speaker 02

  And your team was able to send me... So we are gonna dig into the numbers, your CSP.

• 13:14Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, wow. You know what? I'm not even phased, because I know you don't have it.

• 13:18Speaker 02

  Oh!

• 13:18Ramit Sethi?

  I know it! I know that! It's called confidentiality, people.

• 13:23Speaker 02

  Damn!

• 13:23Ramit Sethi?

  Although, our CSP would make no sense.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, it doesn't make sense.

• 13:27Ramit Sethi?

  It would make no sense.

• 13:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:28Ramit Sethi?

  We have no assets. Well, aside from investments, but we have...

• 13:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:31Ramit Sethi?

  What is the biggest asset? Like, a sweater?

• 13:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe.

• 13:36Ramit Sethi?

  I don't know.

• 13:37Speaker 01

  Jewelry.

• 13:38Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 13:38Speaker 01

  Jewelry. Yeah.

• 13:39Ramit Sethi?

  Basically, very few assets. And, yeah, it just makes no sense.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. It wouldn't make any sense. But I see you sweating.

• 13:48Ramit Sethi?

  I know, I don't want that CSP. People will be like, "What? Why do you spend that much on guilt-free spending?" Like, "'Cause I like to travel."

• 13:55Speaker 02

  I wouldn't want people to see your CSP. I kind of basically know I'm close enough to you guys. People wouldn't understand if they don't know you well, that's the thing.

• 14:01Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, but actually, I think that when I see somebody who has like a crazy way that they spend money, I actually admire it, as long as they can afford it. I'm like, "Oh, you spend this much on clothes, or you spend that much donating, whatever it is." I'm like, "That's cool. If you can afford it, the more dialed-in your rich life becomes, the more weird your finances will become." And that's normal. Like, it should be. The more unique you create your own vision. So I think we've done that together progressively over many years.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely.

• 14:36Speaker 02

  I want you each to talk about what you did leading up to this podcast, because it highlights how different your personalities are.

• 14:43Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, tell them, Cass.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  Yes, so we had a party this weekend at our place, and I thought it would be fun to have these finger tattoos available to everyone, except I was the only one who used them. And they came on, and they were so light. So I was like, "I'm just gonna put them on all my fingers." So I did. And then, last night, I spent an hour trying to get them off. And I was like, "Oh, well, it's fine."

• 15:10Ramit Sethi?

  She looked at me, and she goes, "Babe, they're not coming off. These are not coming off. What should I do?" I'm like, "I don't know, use..." And I looked it up. And then, it didn't come off. And then she just goes, "Ah, whatever."

• 15:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's fine.

• 15:21Ramit Sethi?

  I'm like, "Babe, they roll tight on your fingers. They're gonna see everyone, looking like a felon. Hold that up, look at this."

• 15:28Speaker 01

  I probably should have read the instructions before because these are supposed to last two weeks. Yeah.

• 15:34Ramit Sethi?

  She did it two days before we shoot. Anyway, perfect example. You're like,

• 15:40Speaker 01

  Go with the flow. It's fine.

• 15:43Ramit Sethi?

  I'm like, did you plan it out? What's in the calendar? I would never.

• 15:47Speaker 01

  Well, you even told me last night, I don't even use any body products that are new. I don't eat anything out of the ordinary before I do.

• 15:55Ramit Sethi?

  I would never use like a different shampoo the day before.

• 15:57Speaker 01

  It just never crossed my mind at all.

• 15:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I gifted, I gifted these two a very nice shampoo and conditioner. I wasn't expecting you to use it before the shoot. And then Cass told me she used it. Even I was like, girl, you couldn't wait one day?

• 16:14Ramit Sethi?

  Perfect example.

• 16:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, very much so. Yes.

• 16:18Speaker 02

  Okay, I want to rewind again. I know Ramit has spoken a lot about his experiences with money growing up and we can revisit those. But I'm curious, Cass, what was your experience with money growing up?

• 16:28Speaker 01

  When I think of my parents and of my childhood, I think of just laughing all the time. And my parents really instilled in me to have a good sense of humor because life can get tough and all the things. But my parents both worked full time. Their work ethic is like exceptional. I have a brother as well, so it was four of us in the household. And so whenever my brother and I wanted to do sports or whatever, they would find a way to make it happen. They were always so supportive because we didn't travel a lot. When I was small, we would just stay in California, do road trips and stuff. But anytime I got the opportunity to go somewhere, they're like, go, do it.

• 17:10Speaker 01

  Like, we'll find a way to make it happen. And so I'm always, always so grateful for that. There were never real conversations about money, but honestly, I think it's because my parents were so busy working all the time. Like, they just needed to work and provide and all of that stuff. So I had a very amazing childhood, but yeah, we didn't really talk about money too much.

• 17:29Speaker 02

  Now, Ramit, talk a little bit about what your money experience was growing up.

• 17:33Ramit Sethi?

  My parents did not come here with a lot of money. You know, they had an arranged marriage. My mom got on a plane for the first time and comes to America to meet my dads. They met, seven days later, married, and they built this family. And sometimes they had to do stuff that... Like, we can't really imagine doing right now. Quite frugal, because they had to be.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  Please tell the Disneyland story.

• 17:55Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, my god.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  Because I love it.

• 17:57Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, my god. So, okay, I was born in 1982. And when I was 14, 15 years old, something like that, we went to Disneyland. We didn't go to Disneyland a lot, but we were living in Northern California. Our family trip was typically get in the minivan, drive down to Southern California, stop midway, open up a thermos, which my mom had made lunch and put it in there. We wouldn't eat out at like a McDonald's, too much money. And then keep going and stay with our family in Southern California. Like, that was our trip. This time, we went to Disneyland. Disneyland is expensive, but my dad loves a good deal. So, we get to the front, and we know that something's going on because he goes, "Stay there." And that, but I wanted to listen.

• 18:42Ramit Sethi?

  Not only does my dad pull out his state ID, not only does he pull out his AAA discount and stack that on top. My dad pulls the most legendary move I've ever seen. He pulls out a check from 1982, and he says, "Resident, Los Angeles, here you go." Gets the resident discount for all of us. I said, "Dad, how did you keep that check for 15 years?" He never answered. He just smiled. So, we all went to Disneyland that day. Amazing. There's something very romantic about. They had to find a way to have their kids have a nice time, and that's what they had to do.

• 19:17Speaker 01

  That's one of my favorite sayings that your mom says. "There's always a way."

• 19:22Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  And she and your dad were always very creative.

• 19:26Ramit Sethi?

  Very creative. You know, I later found out my mom was like calling the soccer league, like, "Hey, we can't afford the fees. Like, what can we do?" And they were like, "If you chalk the fields before the game, we'll like waive the fee." My mom was freaking chalking fields. We didn't even know this. I didn't know this till my 20s. Just to get us to be able to play soccer. Like, that is crazy. And I think what my dad, and that example, and my mom, and so many examples, is like, we're gonna find... The family joy in whatever we have to do. If we're pulling over on the side of the road and eating lunch that my mom made, like, there's joy in that. It's not that we're less than anybody else, that we can't eat at some restaurant. It's just, this is what we do. This is family. And I see that in so many lessons now.

• 20:11Ramit Sethi?

  I look back on what my parents taught me and I talk to them. But that's a great example.

• 20:15Speaker 02

  I want you guys to tell me about how you first met, and more importantly, what were your first impressions of each other?

• 20:22Ramit Sethi?

  I remember everything. I saw her, I knew I had to get to know her.

• 20:26Speaker 01

  I vividly remember that. And then I also knew that day that something was different.

• 20:35Ramit Sethi?

  One of the most helpful things that I have started using in the last year or so is meeting notes that automatically tell me what the next action steps are. Clear notes really matter. They are so easy. And that is why I recommend this episode's sponsor, Granola. Granola is an AI-powered notepad built for the way real people actually meet. Using it is easy. You take your typical rough notes during a call, and in the background, Granola uses your device's audio to turn your messy bullet points into clean, structured, actionable insights. It's great because there's no setup, there's no awkward bots showing up to the call. My colleague told me, what I love about Granola is that I can stay focused on the conversation instead of scrambling to capture every detail.

• 21:19Ramit Sethi?

  And if I forget something, Granola got it with the action items ready to go. If meetings are eating up your day, Granola is a no-brainer. You can try it totally free. Just head to granola.ai/ramit. That's granola.ai/ramit to get your time back. Try it for free at granola.ai/ramit.

• 21:43Ramit Sethi?

  If you're retiring soon and you have a financial advisor, please listen up. Do you know how much you pay your advisor? Most people that I talk to do not know. I don't have anything against advisors, per se. I do have something against paying a percentage and not even knowing how much you are paying. You can actually get quality financial help without hidden Or obfuscated fees by switching to a flat fee only advisor from our friends at Facet. Facet charges a flat membership fee for financial planning, never a percentage of your assets. And you get access to a team of CFP professionals, always a CFP, always a fiduciary, who help you create a personalized financial plan that meets you where you are. They can help with big things like investments, moving across the country,

• 22:25Ramit Sethi?

  saving for kids' college, traveling in retirement, estate planning, all of it. Your financial plan should match up with your rich life vision, and Facet can help make that possible without the exorbitant fees. As of the date of this recording, Facet is waiving the enrollment fee for new annual members. And for my audience, Facet is offering $300 into your brokerage account if you invest and maintain $5,000 within your first 90 days. Head to facet.com/ramit to learn more about which membership option is best for you. Facet is an SEC-registered investment advisor. I'm not a member of Facet and have an incentive to endorse Facet as I have an ongoing fee-based contract for cash compensation based on this endorsement. All opinions are my own and not a guarantee of a similar outcome.

• 23:08Speaker 02

  I want you guys to tell me about how you first met, and more importantly, what were your first impressions of each other?

• 23:15Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, I'll go first. I remember everything. I saw her, I knew I had to get to know her. So, we were at a friend's barbecue. I saw her, she was in the kitchen. It was a daytime barbecue in New York.

• 23:26Speaker 02

  Wait, was she cooking?

• 23:27Ramit Sethi?

  No, no.

• 23:28Speaker 02

  No, I don't cook.

• 23:30Ramit Sethi?

  We were there, and I saw her from across the room. I don't remember what you were wearing, but I was like, she's not from New York. Because she had a big smile and was just like very animated and had a California energy, okay? I'm from California, so I know that. And I went up to her and I said, you don't have to tell me where you're from. I already know you're from California. Yeah.

• 23:51Speaker 02

  That was the line.

• 23:52Ramit Sethi?

  So I saw her, I knew I had to get to know her, and... Quite a gamble saying that California thing. It turns out she is from California.

• 24:00Speaker 01

  I remember what he was wearing that day. He was wearing a red polo with tacky shorts, which he does not own anymore.

• 24:07Ramit Sethi?

  That got changed very quickly.

• 24:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, so he does not, but I vividly remember that. And then I also knew like that day that something was different. Especially after we talked, I was like, something is here. And I remember women telling me, when you know, you know. And I was like, yeah, okay, whatever. But I think I knew that day that this was gonna be like something more long term.

• 24:32Ramit Sethi?

  We started going out and I remember on the first date, um, we went to Maya Well on Sixth and Second. That was a Mexican cocktail bar. And um, I accidentally spilled an entire cup of water on her.

• 24:47Speaker 01

  Accidentally.

• 24:48Ramit Sethi?

  It was an accident, but it was actually amazing because she just like laughed. She literally just laughed. That was a moment where I think I just like subconsciously registered it. I love people with a good sense of humor, but especially my wife. Like I knew that the person that I was with had to have a good sense of humor because it's so important to me. And when I saw that, it was a total freak accident that I knocked it over and she just laughed. So the first smile, the first time I saw you and then the laugh, I was like, oh, there's something here.

• 25:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was crying on the inside though, because I had on a good outfit.

• 25:26Speaker 02

  So back when you first started dating, what would you have said back then you were looking for in a partner? And now that you've been together for a decade, what do you think actually matters?

• 25:37Ramit Sethi?

  I would have said sense of humor, interested in self-improvement and the same values. I think all those things are true, but I underestimated how important resilience is. Like it's huge because things happen in life where it's not in your control.

• 25:58Ramit Sethi?

  And to be able to take it and grieve and process it and then get up the next day and still keep going is like, wow, that's incredible. I don't know how you look for resilience. I truthfully don't. I think I got really lucky and I think that we have built trust together where sometimes you just need to lean on your partner and you need to just be like, I can't do this on my own, I need help.

• 26:20Speaker 01

  As you say resilience, that is so true. And I'm just thinking back to when we were dating, like, how would you screen?

• 26:26Ramit Sethi?

  I have no idea.

• 26:27Speaker 01

  For that. You pour a glass of water on them at the bar.

• 26:32Ramit Sethi?

  Yes. Who'd you, unknowingly? What a great test. But what would yours be?

• 26:40Speaker 01

  So I would say a sense of humor is very important to me. My parents are hilarious. They have a great sense of humor and they really taught me that. And I would have said that back then and you do, we laugh all the time. But now I think what is most important after everything we've been through is a positive outlook. Because I think of the things that we've gone through in our marriage and it's been really tough sometimes. And to have you being there, being so positive and forward looking and, okay, here's what we need to get done and stuff has been really amazing. And I think it would be really hard to be with someone who didn't have that outlook consistently.

• 27:24Speaker 02

  Who brought up money first when you were dating and how did that go?

• 27:27Ramit Sethi?

  I probably brought it up, but I think you brought it up seriously. This is a big mistake. Like, I made a big mistake on this one. So Cass had asked me early on for some help with her 401k or something. I was like, you ever heard of a book called, I Will Teach You To Be Rich? Read it. And, you know, I helped you with your, I think, work finances. Because of that, I knew about your salary and basic expenses, but I didn't tell you mine, years into dating. And she said, it doesn't feel fair, you know everything about my finances and I don't know anything about yours. And I remember at that moment, like, Almost that moment where like the blood leaves your face and I realized like I violated

• 28:10Ramit Sethi?

  my own rule from chapter nine of my own book where I say, "Talk about it early." And it was true. And in the back of my head, I know why I didn't share it earlier. I love understanding money. I love building the systems of money. I love earning and spending money, but I don't like talking about the specific details of my own money. And so I remember we had one of the best conversations we've ever had where I was like, "Here it is." And it felt weird because I'd never told anyone except like professional people who need to know certain numbers, but I also felt really proud. I felt really proud because what I had built took a lot of work, like a lot of dedication, a lot of luck. And to

• 28:55Ramit Sethi?

  be able to share that, like it meant that we could create a kind of life that like most cannot imagine. And the questions are different. It's like, what do we want to do in our rich life? So it felt amazing.

• 29:07Speaker 02

  Can you help me understand something? Just because like if I were in your shoes and I had a big bank account, I wouldn't feel afraid to tell my partner my money. I assume it would be like people in the opposite situation. So can you help me understand why you were resistant to share your numbers for so long when they were technically like healthy numbers? You know what I mean?

• 29:26Ramit Sethi?

  Like I'm a public figure, but in many ways I'm very private. And it was only when Cass pointed out that I had not proactively, which is like, I regret that. That's when I started to open up. And then I think that was what allowed us to start connecting more.

• 29:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. The funny thing is when we met, I had no idea who he was, what he did, anything. And I think I asked you, "Oh, what do you do?" Because people ask that in New York and you're like, "Oh, I'm an author." And then that was it. And so you were very modest about everything, but after he had shared that with me, I was like, "Wow, he's worked really hard to get to that point." And as a business owner now, I'm like, "It totally makes sense. I would probably have done the same thing and approached it the same way." So it also helped me have a lot of empathy too.

• 30:09Ramit Sethi?

  I appreciate that.

• 30:10Speaker 02

  I want to talk about the proposal a little bit.

• 30:13Ramit Sethi?

  We were dating pretty seriously and it was very clear. Like we were both. In this for the long term, we loved each other. We had met each other's families and we sat down. We still have the Google Calendar invite and it was like all these agenda items. And she goes, there is one other thing. I would like to be engaged by Q1 of next year. And I was like, did you just speak in financial quarters? Because you are truly the dream woman of my life. And that's exactly what happened. And she had made it clear like this is when I want to be proposed to.

• 30:49Speaker 01

  Wow. And then I also had sent him an email.

• 30:53Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, yeah.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  With rings that I liked.

• 30:55Ramit Sethi?

  Thank God, I love that.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  So I detailed like, I like this cut.

• 30:59Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 30:59Speaker 01

  I like this metal. Do what you want with this, but here's some details to help guide you.

• 31:05Ramit Sethi?

  I love that. That made it so easy.

• 31:06Speaker 02

  All right. So how did he propose, Cass?

• 31:09Speaker 01

  Oh, it was very special and very thoughtful. He said to me, we're going to go do a cooking class. And he's like, wear something nice. And I was like, oh, okay. You know, the spidey sense kind of starts to go up.

• 31:21Ramit Sethi?

  Well, I didn't know this. What the hell?

• 31:24Speaker 01

  Because we had talked about getting engaged and all this. So I knew it was coming at some point. And then I had my nails done. I was like all ready to go. And we did, we went into Little Italy and you had arranged a baking class. And then there was like a back room, but I could see through the curtains that there's like a table and some flowers on it and stuff. So while things were baking, Remy was like, oh, follow me back here to this room. And I knew, I was like, oh my gosh, it's coming, it's coming. And he did, he proposed then and that was very special. And so he had arranged a photographer. So we went out to do photos. We came back and he flew my parents in and his parents and sisters and brother were there and all of our friends.

• 32:07Speaker 01

  And we had a party that night, our engagement party. And so it was really special.

• 32:12Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 32:13Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. That was awesome. Awesome.

• 32:14Speaker 01

  It was very thoughtful.

• 32:17Ramit Sethi?

  One of the most helpful things that I have started using in the last year or so is meeting notes that automatically tell me what the next action steps are. Clear notes really matter. They are so easy and that is why I recommend this episode's sponsor, Granola. Granola is an AI-powered notepad built for the way real people actually meet. Using it is easy. You take your typical rough notes during a call and in the background, Granola uses your device's audio to turn your messy bullet points into clean, structured, actionable insights. It's great because there's no setup, there's no awkward bots showing up to the call. My colleague told me what I love about Granola is that I can stay focused on the conversation instead of scrambling to capture every detail. And if I forget

• 33:02Ramit Sethi?

  something, Granola got it with the action items ready to go. If meetings are eating up your day, Granola is a no-brainer. You can try it totally free, just head to granola.ai/ramit. That's granola.ai/ramit to get your time back. Try it for free at granola.ai/ramit.

• 33:25Ramit Sethi?

  If you're retiring soon and you have a financial advisor, please listen up. Do you know how much you pay your advisor? Most people that I talk to do not know. I don't have anything against advisors per se. I do have something against paying a percentage and not even knowing how much you are paying. You can actually get quality financial help without hidden or obfuscated fees by switching to a flat fee-only advisor from our friends at Facet. Facet charges a flat membership fee for financial planning, never a percentage of your assets. And you get access to a team of CFP professionals, always a CFP, always a fiduciary, who help you create a personalized financial plan that meets you where you are. They can help with big things like investments, moving across the country, saving for kids'

• 34:08Ramit Sethi?

  college, traveling in retirement, estate planning, all of it. Your financial plan should match up with your rich life vision and Facet can help make that possible without the exorbitant fees. As of the date of this recording, Facet is waiving the enrollment fee for new annual members and for my audience, Facet is offering $300 Your brokerage account if you invest and maintain $5,000 within your first 90 days. Head to facet.com/ramit to learn more about which membership option is best for you. Facet is an SEC registered investment advisor. I'm not a member of Facet and have an incentive to endorse Facet as I have an ongoing fee based contract for cash compensation based on this endorsement. All opinions are my own and not a guarantee of a similar outcome.

• 34:50Speaker 02

  Cass, you mentioned you had a scarcity mindset around money and now you have an abundance mindset around money. Can you share what kind of inner work you've had to do to make that transition?

• 35:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a lot of work and I think it was just a lot of going inwards. Honestly, why am I thinking this way? Do I really believe I can't earn money or I don't deserve X or Y? And so the journaling and the mantras that I would repeat to myself over and over really helped. But it was a lot of introspection and that was really illuminating for me because I thought when you're in a marriage, everything should just flow and it works and all this stuff where in reality, like I personally knew that I had to do a lot of work on my thoughts and what I believed and how that was going to impact us as husband and wife. And that has paid off so much.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  It was a lot of work, but in hindsight, I'm so glad that I did it because that then has cascaded into me advocating for myself more in our relationship, outside of the relationship, being a better business owner. So many ways it has impacted my life.

• 36:03Speaker 02

  I love it.

• 36:04Ramit Sethi?

  Wait, wait, what was the mantra that you said? I didn't know this.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, there's a lot of mantras.

• 36:09Ramit Sethi?

  Like what's one?

• 36:09Speaker 01

  Money flows to me easily.

• 36:11Ramit Sethi?

  Oh.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  That is one, yeah.

• 36:14Ramit Sethi?

  So, and the implication is I deserve?

• 36:19Ramit Sethi?

  Money, is that it?

• 36:20Speaker 01

  I can earn money, I can attract money, money likes me.

• 36:25Ramit Sethi?

  Nice.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  All of that instead of.

• 36:27Ramit Sethi?

  I'm scarce.

• 36:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 36:28Ramit Sethi?

  I better protect everything I have. Wow, that's cool.

• 36:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it was so interesting too, because working a corporate job for so long, you kind of know your path, right? You know the next promotion, what the salary is going to be, possible bonus. But now, as a business owner, the sky is the limit. And so that transition mentally for me, going from corporate worker to business owner, has really helped me as well become more abundant too.

• 36:53Ramit Sethi?

  That is so different than my approach, because when we met, I had been running my own business for 15 years. And I knew if I want to make more money, here's what I need to do. And if I want to take a three-week vacation or a five-week vacation, I can do that too.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  And I remember Ramit would be like, "Yeah, I'll just make more money." And I'm like, "What? You just make more money?"

• 37:15Ramit Sethi?

  Wait.

• 37:15Speaker 01

  Like, what?

• 37:16Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, during COVID, I remember she told me this thing. I was taking a nap on our couch.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  It was like 3:00 PM on a Tuesday.

• 37:23Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, I was like, "I thought nothing of it. I like to take a nap." And then she later told me, she goes, "I saw you taking a nap." She's like, "You have all these people working for you, and like, you're on TV and this and that, and you're just like, taking a nap." She's like, "That's what I want." I was like, "That's actually awesome, because I do love the freedom to be able to take a nap."

• 37:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, that actually really inspired me.

• 37:44Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, and now you've done it.

• 37:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 37:46Ramit Sethi?

  It's amazing. So I love that example that we both take from each other about like, "Oh, you do that in your business? What?" That's possible now, because I think you're abundant, and we're both abundant.

• 37:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 37:58Speaker 02

  Absolutely. It's been great staying with you and seeing you both sleeping in the middle of the day.

• 38:05Speaker 02

  We do love our naps.

• 38:08Speaker 02

  Cass, for years, you kept your money separate from Ramit's. I want to understand, what made you so hesitant to combine your money? And then what was it that finally changed, that made you willing to take the leap at last?

• 38:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, that has been quite a journey for myself. When I think back to when we were dating and then we got the prenup and newly married, I, I wanted to do it on my own despite us being married. And like to prove to myself and to prove to Ramit, like I can earn money. Like I'm fine on my own. I, I don't need to ask for help. And I had like a real sense of pride in that as well. And so just recently, we started really digging into that a little bit more. And I started thinking independently, why am I thinking this way? Like, is it serving me? Is it serving us? How does Ramit feel about that as well?

• 39:07Speaker 01

  And it was very nerve wracking for me to go to him and be like, okay, I'm ready to do things jointly now, you know? And I think Ramit had always, always pushed and advocated for us to do our money jointly. How was that for you to like?

• 39:23Ramit Sethi?

  Oh my God, I was like, this is what I've been talking about for like six years. It felt awesome.

• 39:30Speaker 01

  And I think back to why I thought that way for so long. And honestly, it surrounded me. Like growing up with girlfriends, you always want to keep money for yourself just in case. And you know, Ramit is so awesome. He's such a loving husband. I'm like, why am I not giving him a chance? And so it's been a little bit since we transitioned now. And I still kind of get nervous from time to time, but we talk it through together and yeah, have good conversations about it. It's still a work in progress though, still a work in progress.

• 40:04Ramit Sethi?

  I think that's pretty surprising to a lot of people. I mean, cause we talk about joint and if you look on the internet, everyone's like, when you're married, everything comes together. But you know, you mentioned this, this whisper in your mind about, I need to have a little bit for myself and it was what surrounded you. I think that's really common, really common. Personally, it was.

• 40:26Ramit Sethi?

  Pretty hard. Like emotionally, it was hard because I'm like, why are we not combining our finances? Our future is together. So how can we not? But then, logistically, that was also very challenging because you're a business owner, I'm a business owner. We're gonna have joint money, but we're also gonna have separate. And our setup was so complicated early on. It was like every quarter, if we have to do an analysis of our distributions, then we need to re-apportion things because we're paying proportionally. And we're married. And it was like so complicated. And I'm not trying to do this analysis myself. So it was like so much work.

• 41:05Ramit Sethi?

  And then, having to go back to each other and say like, well, like you gotta transfer this much to this account. It's so burdensome, but for us to finally like be able to put everything into that joint account feels like awesome. It just feels natural because that's our future. It's together.

• 41:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's funny because Ramit would do these podcasts and he'd be like, yeah, they didn't wanna, you know, put their money jointly together. And I'm like, oh, really?

• 41:32Ramit Sethi?

  I wasn't trying to send you a secret message.

• 41:34Speaker 01

  No, I know.

• 41:34Ramit Sethi?

  But, but in retrospect, we're just like everybody else. We are living it. We have our own challenges. Years into getting married, we're still tweaking things. And that gives me a lot of compassion because like, it's hard. It's hard and you're successful as an entrepreneur and very empathetic. And I've been doing this for 20 plus years and it's hard for us. So you know it's hard for other people.

• 41:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, we can really empathize with all the guests.

• 42:02Speaker 02

  So now that you've taken that leap, like how has it affected your relationship?

• 42:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, it has been positive to know that we're working towards this together. If he does well, I do well, vice versa. And if you enjoy something, I enjoy it and vice versa. It's been really relaxing for me.

• 42:21Ramit Sethi?

  That's a good word. I feel like the day we decided, like it immediately eased, like immediately. There was a noticeable connection in our relationship that was there before, but we had to like work to get it. It was like.

• 42:38Ramit Sethi?

  Going from teammates to true teammates.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like a new level of trust, I would say.

• 42:44Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 42:45Speaker 02

  Oh, I love that description. So there were times then when you were advising Ramit other couples to merge their finances completely when you guys hadn't done that yet.

• 42:53Ramit Sethi?

  So I did talk to couples where I'm like, yeah, it makes a lot of sense for you to combine. And ours was combined, but not.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  Not 100%.

• 43:01Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 43:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:02Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 43:03Speaker 02

  Got it, okay. I want us to take the time now for you to walk us through your entrepreneurial journey and like everything you had to go through to become the kind of woman who can sit here today, sit at the table, not just as Ramit's romantic partner, but as a powerhouse in her own right.

• 43:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was quite a journey and Ramit has been there along for the whole ride. I worked a corporate job in the fashion industry, nine to five. I was a fashion merchandiser and buyer. And then Ramit had an idea one day and he said, you're really good at styling. Have you ever thought about starting a business? And I said, no way. I have never, ever thought about it. And then we went to a friend's wedding and I pitched my services there. And I didn't know how to do an invoice. I didn't know anything and I got a client that night. And then that was the beginning of Next Level Wardrobe.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  So it has been a really rewarding journey and it's been fun to have Ramit as my support system along the way.

• 44:08Speaker 02

  Okay, you're very modest.

• 44:10Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, can I brag for her?

• 44:11Speaker 02

  Yes, please.

• 44:12Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, because I see the business.

• 44:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:14Ramit Sethi?

  And first of all, the work that you do for your clients is amazing. Like you go out of your way. You're not just delivering the minimum, you're going above and beyond texting them, helping them with their packing, doing in-person as well. But also the backend of the business is what is really impressive. So I saw you build it from the beginning. I remember early on, it was late at night. It was like 11:00 PM. You normally were not awake that late. And I come out and you're like staring at your computer and basically close to crying. And I was like, babe, what's wrong? You were like, this. Website alignment won't work.

• 44:57Ramit Sethi?

  And I was like, why don't we go to sleep and we can worry about it in the morning? And compare that when you're starting out as an entrepreneur, like every little detail feels existential. And now you have systems in your business that I don't have. I'm like, how'd you do that? What software, who'd you hire for that? And that's when she's like, don't you dare hire them away because I'm working with them. And the, the way that you deliver a creative service in a structured way is like amazing. It's very inspirational.

• 45:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you. I will never forget that website night. I hold it deep in my soul. But yeah, it's been fun and Ramit has been so supportive along the way. He's been very careful not to give advice when I'm not looking for advice and just looking for support. And one of the questions that we'll always ask each other is, do you want support? Or do you want advice right now? And that has been a really, really helpful question.

• 45:52Ramit Sethi?

  Well, I think early on I realized you're not my student. You're not in one of my programs. You're my wife and you're an entrepreneur. And that means like, it's not my business and I can watch. And sometimes early on I saw stuff and I'm like, oh, I wouldn't do it that way. But I was just like, shut your mouth to myself. Just don't, it's not my place. And then now, you know, I think when we talk about business a lot, we'll ask each other questions. Hey, how are you doing this in your business? Or like, what are you doing for onboarding? And it's a partnership. We are partners, we just run different businesses. And I think we're equally asking each other for advice or how do we do this or that?

• 46:31Speaker 02

  Cass, how does it feel when people think that you are simply riding on Ramit's success?

• 46:37Speaker 01

  Oh, it bleeped me off. It really makes my blood boil.

• 46:41Ramit Sethi?

  Like they have no idea how successful your business is, how much work you put into it.

• 46:45Speaker 01

  Just the fact that like, people may think that gets me really worked up. Like really, really worked up.

• 46:54Ramit Sethi?

  One of the most helpful things that I have started using in the last year or so is meeting notes that automatically tell me what the next action steps are. Clear notes really matter. They are so easy and that is why I recommend this episode's sponsor, Granola. Granola is an AI-powered notepad built for the way real people actually meet. Using it is easy. You take your typical rough notes during a call and in the background, Granola uses your device's audio to turn your messy bullet points into clean, structured, actionable insights. It's great because there's no setup, there's no awkward bots showing up to the call. My colleague told me what I love about Granola is that I can stay focused on the conversation instead of scrambling to capture every detail. And if I forget

• 47:39Ramit Sethi?

  something, Granola got it with the action items ready to go. If meetings are eating up your day, Granola is a no-brainer. You can try it totally free. Just head to granola.ai/ramit. That's granola.ai/ramit to get your time back. Try it for free at granola.ai/ramit.

• 48:02Speaker 02

  Cass, how does it feel when people think that you are simply riding on Ramit's success?

• 48:08Speaker 01

  Oh, it pisses me off. It really makes my blood boil because I have worked in the fashion industry for over 25 years. I went to college for it. I have a post grad. Like, I have so much experience. I built multimillion dollar retail businesses. And so just the fact that like, people may think that gets me really worked up. Like really, really worked up.

• 48:34Ramit Sethi?

  Like they have no idea how successful your business is, how much work you put into it, how much you care about your clients and you go above and beyond.

• 48:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, even my team, like the way I hire people, the way I train people, the way we work with people is like, it's all of it is just so intentional and really was built upon my experience of working in the fashion industry. And so, you know, all those people will just never really understand. But it is, yeah, something that I'm very proud of that I've built and, and looking forward to growing it even more.

• 49:08Speaker 02

  Okay, so Cass, since you are the one who has that engineering systems, mind, numbers, spreadsheets, how does that show up in how you two manage money?

• 49:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we do have bi-weekly money meetings. And we have figured out a time in our calendar that works well for us, which is Thursday mornings for 30 minutes. And every quarter, I'll prep the numbers. So we have accountants, they send me the numbers. I love a good pivot table, the lookups, all the things, I'll get the numbers ready. And then I'll present how the quarter is looking. So do we have extra money via distributions? How are we looking according to our budget and kind of go line by line?

• 49:51Ramit Sethi?

  Wait, hold on, did you say budget? We don't do a budget.

• 49:53Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, no, no budget, CSP, sorry.

• 49:55Ramit Sethi?

  Thank you. Every December, we have our Rich Life Review. We talk about like, how much do we want to spend in these categories? And because we are regularly monitoring a few key numbers, we always know, hey, we're a little bit over, it's okay, we have time in the year to recover. We also have a bit of a complexity that many other couples don't with business distribution. So sometimes we'll make more than planned or not. And I think you do an awesome job of like staying on top of that and us talking about it.

• 50:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, and one of the things I will bring up in our meetings is if my business has a distribution or yours and we have this extra money, how do we want to spend it? So those are fun conversations for us to have.

• 50:37Ramit Sethi?

  Although we do disagree.

• 50:39Speaker 01

  We do disagree, yeah.

• 50:40Ramit Sethi?

  This is, this is one area where we disagree. So I think you like to talk about things like, each time it happens, you would be like, what should we do with our distribution? I'm like, I only want to talk about this once a year. I want to do it by percentage, I want to set a rule, and then I don't want to talk about this until next December. Like, that is my philosophy with money. Simplify, create a rule, and then never talk about it again.

• 51:07Speaker 01

  But also, I think rules are meant to be broken.

• 51:09Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, God.

• 51:10Speaker 02

  Someone has to be the free spirit.

• 51:12Ramit Sethi?

  No.

• 51:12Speaker 02

  Ship it, ain't for me.

• 51:13Ramit Sethi?

  Set the rules.

• 51:14Speaker 02

  Step around hot sauce.

• 51:17Speaker 02

  Okay, for me, when we were roommates in our twenties, we used to have little tiffs every now and then about housework. So I'm curious now that you are part of a power couple, how is housework divided between the two of you?

• 51:32Ramit Sethi?

  Wow, this is a good question.

• 51:33Speaker 01

  I'll take this one.

• 51:34Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 51:36Speaker 01

  So, housework is one of those things that is really important in a relationship. I kind of think of it as a business. And so it's like, okay, how are we managing finances? How are you managing day to day housework, etc.? And I took a lot of it on, especially very early on, because I thought that was the way to make Ramit happy. So he can focus on work and accomplish all your goals, etc. But meanwhile, I was growing resentful because I'm like doing all the chores. I'm also working, I'm building my business. I'm trying to like make you happy, friends, family, all this stuff. And so one point, I was like, I'm gonna write a list.

• 52:19Ramit Sethi?

  In Tokyo, right?

• 52:21Speaker 01

  Yes, so I did. And I literally typed out one to 20, everything I was doing. I was emptying the dishwasher, I was folding laundry, listed it all out. And actually, after I wrote that list, I was like, damn, this is a lot of stuff that I'm doing. You kind of don't know, right?

• 52:36Speaker 02

  Please tell me you have a photo of this list.

• 52:38Speaker 01

  Oh, I think it exists. Yeah, it's in Google Docs somewhere. And so I presented it to Ramit. And I was like, I want you to know that this is everything that I'm doing for our household. And been doing it for years, like, we need to have a discussion about this. And that led to a great discussion and some big breakthroughs because Ramit received it so well. He was like, I had no idea that you were doing all this. Like, how can we make it more equal, more fair? So we literally went down one to 20, you do this, I do this. And it's been really helpful.

• 53:16Ramit Sethi?

  I remember that conversation. I think Cass underplays how frustrated she was. You were really frustrated because I think it had been building up for you, but maybe you brought it up in certain ways, but not like that. And I gotta say, like, when you brought out the list, it was undeniable. It was like, oh, this is so obvious. This is so obviously unfair. You know what I mean? And the minute I saw that, I respond well to lists. And just like, put it in black and white and I see it and boom, we gotta make a change. So it was like, okay, I'll do this, this. What do you think about that? I think that was an awesome example of you, well, first of all, taking on all of that work for so long.

• 54:01Ramit Sethi?

  I appreciate that. And like, that shouldn't have been the case. I should have been more equitable with that. But especially in that conversation, which I know was really hard for you and hard for me to hear. The way you presented it, I was like, oh, like, I totally get it. And this can't continue for one more day.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, and those conversations are still ongoing. Like, we just revisited the chore list like a few weeks ago. And we're like, how do we feel about this? Is there anything we need to redelegate? And one of the reasons why I brought that up as well is because I realized I couldn't do it all. And I couldn't do it all at the level I wanted to. So something had to give. And now we have a one, two, three dishwasher process that we use every day.

• 54:46Ramit Sethi?

  Can I talk about this? I invented this. It's the greatest invention I've ever done. Okay, listen, every day, so we eat a lot of dishes every day.

• 54:55Speaker 01

  I've seen.

• 54:56Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, that freaking thing fills up, right? Like, the sink will be full. So I was like, I need to apply my systems talent to solving this problem. So one day I said, babe, sit down and just mentally prepare yourself for the beauty and simplicity of this system. It's called the one, two, three system. One, in the morning, you wake up, the dishwasher will always be clean. You empty it. Two, throughout the day, we're each gonna put dishes in and whatever we eat, let's try to put two dishes in the dishwasher. So we're always filling it up. Three, at the end of the night, I will, whatever's left, I'm gonna put it in the dishwasher, load it up correctly, start the dishwasher and repeat. One, two, three. I love this because when I open the dishwasher, I don't want to have to wonder what's in there.

• 55:40Ramit Sethi?

  Is it clean? Is it dirty? It's just one way of smoothing out our lives and keeping it simple. Nobody else cares about this system except me. I love it. I'm so proud of it.

• 55:50Speaker 01

  I care.

• 55:50Ramit Sethi?

  Thank you, babe. Thank you. So luckily, we're on the same page about how much we do ourselves, which is, you know, we still do chores. We were both raised doing chores. I know your mom was, you would clean on Saturdays and we had chores in our house growing up. I know that. But now, there's some stuff I just don't want to do anymore. And I don't feel any guilt about having somebody else and paying them very well and having them do a great job. So we do that as well.

• 56:19Speaker 02

  Let's talk about the stuff that you guys spend on guilt free. And I especially want to hear about the stuff that other people would probably feel guilty about or that other people would think is really irrational.

• 56:32Ramit Sethi?

  I never felt those things in my life. Guilt? What is that? Why would I feel guilty for spending money?

• 56:39Speaker 01

  I love spending money on self-care. I freaking love it. Like, if I could retire and just go full-time into self-care, I would do it. So acupuncture, sports massage, getting my hair done, manicure, pedicure. I love it so much and I am so unapologetic about it because in my 40s, my theme is to slow down. And so to really like calm the nervous system, all that stuff, and what better way than to get a massage?

• 57:10Ramit Sethi?

  You do really love it. Like, it is, it is truly your money dial. A year and a half ago, we sat down for our Rich Life Review and Cass was like, "What do you like to spend money on?" I was like, "Oh, travel, fitness, clothes." And she's like, "Yeah, what else?" And I, I was like, huh? And it, there was this moment where I'm like, "This is what I talk about day in and day out." But what's my answer? Let me get back to you. Thought about it for a couple of days. And I came back and said, What I really want is to have an apartment in New York that is beautiful. And we can leave our stuff there and it's a totally irrational thing to spend money on because we don't spend a ton of time in New York, but I just love the energy here.

• 57:55Ramit Sethi?

  And she was like, well, then you should. And so I did that and honestly, it's been amazing. And it's a good practice. It's a good reminder to practice the skill of spending money meaningfully. Meanwhile, like there are other things I don't really care about and I always try to keep those minimized. But this one was like a special one for me and for us.

• 58:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, it has been very special. And one thing we have recently discovered that we don't like to spend our money on jointly is car.

• 58:26Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, I don't think anybody knows this.

• 58:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:29Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Okay, so last year we had a theme for our rich life, which is we want to live a life of beauty. So that's, that was a one year theme. And so we're like, what does it take to surround ourselves with beauty? It might be fresh flowers, which I know is something you love to spend money on. I think that's awesome. And so Cass goes, um, what about our car? And I was like, what about our car? It's beautiful already. The Honda Accord.

• 58:57Speaker 01

  Oh, I remember that one.

• 58:58Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 58:59Speaker 01

  Julie remembers.

• 59:00Ramit Sethi?

  Nineteen years.

• 59:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 59:02Ramit Sethi?

  Impeccable condition.

• 59:04Speaker 01

  It really was.

• 59:04Ramit Sethi?

  The only thing that was a little old about it was the, uh, inside the roof, the like ceiling started to fall down. So I went to get it repaired, but other than that it was perfect. And I go, what are you talking about? She goes, well, you know, if we're following the theme, we should probably practice like spending money on the things we love. So I said, you know what? You're right. I still love this car. It runs perfectly. It had like 150,000 miles, but like, let's do it. So first I was like, I want to give this car to somebody who needs it. So, um, I started looking for like single moms in LA or like somebody who truly needed it. It was actually pretty hard to find. Finally, we have somebody in our network who said, you know what? I know these guys. They just got in an accident. They're young and they work hard. They need a car.

• 59:50Ramit Sethi?

  So I went to talk to them. I got the car all detailed and like ready to go. And I went outside and I said, how you guys doing? I heard you guys got in an accident. They were like, yeah. I said, what do you think about that car? I pointed at the car. It's like gleaming. And they go, I said, here. And I handed them the key. I said, it's yours. And they started crying.

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was really sweet.

• 1:00:11Ramit Sethi?

  So I gave that car feeling like very proud. It was the first major purchase I ever made right out of college. It was meaningful to me. I really picked the best car. I negotiated for it. And now to be able to give that to somebody else, like, carry on, you know? Meanwhile, we went to lease a new car. I had never leased before. We were like, we want electric. All we honestly wanted was Bluetooth. We didn't even have Bluetooth in our car.

• 1:00:36Speaker 01

  That was my only wish, Bluetooth. Because in the Honda, we would just like blast our speakers on the phone, on our iPhones.

• 1:00:44Ramit Sethi?

  Literally the cell phone. You listen to Spotify off the cell phone. Okay, so we, we find this electric vehicle. It's great. We get it. It's like, has all the features. It has a massage and it has a 50 million cameras. And we're like, whoa, this is crazy. And it's been over a year. It has 3,000 miles on it. We looked at each other a few months into it and we were like, do you, do you care about this car? And we were both like, no. And we want to get rid of it. Especially Cass, because she ran the numbers to find out how much it costs all in all per month. And she was like, look at how much it's costing us.

• 1:01:26Speaker 01

  It was like double than what we originally thought.

• 1:01:28Ramit Sethi?

  It's called phantom cost, my friends. And, and we just realized, we don't care about that nice of a car. We're like perfectly happy having.

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  I just need Bluetooth. That's it.

• 1:01:38Ramit Sethi?

  And I was like, should we go and buy that Honda Accord back?

• 1:01:43Ramit Sethi?

  But I think it was actually a great realization for us. Like, the fact that we tried it. We're willing to try things and they don't always work out. We would, you know, make sure we can comfortably afford something when we try it. But it's actually cool to know that there are things that we like and things that are not important to us.

• 1:02:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a big realization for us because we were both so excited about it. And yeah, it just turned out it's just not our thing.

• 1:02:08Speaker 02

  Were there, are there any other examples from recent times where you've caught yourselves not taking or following Ramit's money advice?

• 1:02:18Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:02:19Ramit Sethi?

  Well, I mean, we spend more than certain guidelines on certain things.

• 1:02:23Speaker 01

  Absolutely, yeah.

• 1:02:24Ramit Sethi?

  Guilt-free spending.

• 1:02:25Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. We love our guilt-free spending. So we will work very hard to make sure that bucket is full.

• 1:02:33Ramit Sethi?

  That's a good point.

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, if that means I have to do extra sales calls or you have to do another launch or whatever it is, we will work really hard because we enjoy our guilt-free spending a lot.

• 1:02:47Ramit Sethi?

  I never, ever want to get close to the red line. Like, never. I won't even get into that area. But as long as it's comfortable, I'm like, let me make some mistakes, let me learn from it, et cetera. So, I mean, with our wedding, thinking way back to that, I had been saving since I was in my twenties, before I even met Cass. I went way over plan. But I was like, so what? It's fine. I have the money. I don't need to be so tiny and detailed about going over. However, with the big things in life, I still want to be like very conscious. That's why we talk a lot about percentages of contribution and investment and stuff like that.

• 1:03:27Speaker 02

  I'm like Jock right now because you have been saving for your wedding since your twenties, but you were still willing to make that bet with me. On who would get married first.

• 1:03:36Ramit Sethi?

  Can we talk about this freaking bet? I lose it. I made so many bets when I was in my twenties with friends.

• 1:03:43Speaker 02

  That you, that he lost.

• 1:03:44Ramit Sethi?

  I pretty much lost all of them. I lost like pretty much every single one. It was the loser who's gonna get married first has to present an Ed McMahon sized check at their wedding to the other person. So we made this bet like in our early twenties. I don't know if you thought I forgot, but I never forgot. I track all my bets. And at our wedding, I freaking pulled out this humongous check. And we have a photo because I surprised you. What did you think when I showed you this thing?

• 1:04:12Speaker 02

  I mean, I had forgotten the bet, so I was surprised. But then I, but I also wasn't surprised because you do always make good on your bets. Because we've had enough over the years. So everyone knows I haven't cashed that check yet.

• 1:04:24Ramit Sethi?

  I think I've lost like tens of thousands of dollars in those stupid bets. Oh, God.

• 1:04:29Speaker 02

  I want to know what the most valuable thing you've learned about money, love or life is from each other.

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  Hmm. I would say from you, definitely abundance. Because for me, it was always like, there's a way. We could do it. We can earn more money. We can do this, we can do that. And you got that from your parents as well. They instilled that in you. And so I think just seeing the world from that point of view has been really eye opening for me.

• 1:05:01Ramit Sethi?

  Uh, mine would be that I've learned from you is the importance of like, how do you feel? How do you feel? How do I feel? I think for a lot of times I didn't know how I felt. I knew what I thought. I'm intellectual, but I didn't know how I felt. And learning that is like learning a whole new, it's like developing a new palate.

• 1:05:25Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:05:26Ramit Sethi?

  And it has really changed the way that I relate to people a lot. It's softer and more abundant.

• 1:05:35Ramit Sethi?

  But you know what? I don't want to be lectured to. Like, there are areas of my life I'm trying to improve. And if somebody came in and they're like, "Look at the five ways you can radically change." Sometimes you just want to be heard. And I think you have taught me to really lean into that.

• 1:05:49Speaker 01

  Rami definitely has grown into his softer side. And so, behind closed doors, you know, you do like to be the little spoon.

• 1:05:59Ramit Sethi?

  I do love the little spoon.

• 1:06:01Speaker 02

  Whoa, I was not expecting to learn this today.

• 1:06:04Ramit Sethi?

  Little spoon is the way to go.

• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  He does love the little spoon.

• 1:06:06Ramit Sethi?

  I'm in touch with my own masculinity to say that.

• 1:06:09Speaker 01

  After we talk about our feelings, I'll become the big spoon.

• 1:06:13Ramit Sethi?

  I do love it.

• 1:06:14Speaker 01

  But yeah, it's been a true joy to see him develop emotionally and really get in tune with feelings and also ask for what he wants.

• 1:06:22Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:22Speaker 01

  And so, yeah, that's been really cool to see.

• 1:06:25Ramit Sethi?

  I'm a teddy bear, okay?

• 1:06:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, look at it.

• 1:06:28Ramit Sethi?

  I'm the teddy bear.

• 1:06:29Speaker 02

  I love that story. Cass, I want to hear from you what it is like living with an optimizer. And also, second, is there anything that you do a little bit differently that perhaps drives Rami a little bit crazy?

• 1:06:40Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. So, living with Rami, he definitely loves his routines and systems. And a good example of this is he will put things back exactly where... So like, if he were to close his eyes, he could walk into that room and pick it up. Whereas I'm like, "Oh, it's fine. It's over here. It's over there." And so, stuff we share jointly, he'll be like, "Hey, where's that? Fill in the blank." And I'm like, "Oh, I think it's over here, but it's over here." And it drives me.

• 1:07:10Ramit Sethi?

  I'm getting so mad listening to this right now. I'm getting so stressed out.

• 1:07:14Speaker 01

  You've gotten more patient with it, but you used to get really upset by it.

• 1:07:19Speaker 02

  So I want you to look at each other now and give your partner one piece of money advice that you think would help improve either their lives or your lives together or the quality of the relationship.

• 1:07:34Ramit Sethi?

  Damn. Okay, you go first. I'm like...

• 1:07:37Speaker 01

  Uh, lighten up on the rules.

• 1:07:40Speaker 02

  Ooh.

• 1:07:40Speaker 01

  A little bit.

• 1:07:41Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, that's never gonna happen.

• 1:07:46Ramit Sethi?

  Let me go into your bathroom with all those bottles with a large garbage bag and clean out 75% of them. Let me just clean it out, please.

• 1:07:57Speaker 01

  No, that's never gonna happen.

• 1:08:01Speaker 02

  Okay, rapid fire round. Rapid fire. Who has the bigger closet?

• 1:08:07Speaker 01

  He does.

• 1:08:08Speaker 02

  What is something you absolutely refuse to spend money on?

• 1:08:10Ramit Sethi?

  Uh, what's that thing in the hotel rooms? Minibar.

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  Oh, minibar. Yeah, that's true.

• 1:08:18Speaker 02

  Who's more likely to impulse buy?

• 1:08:19Speaker 01

  You. With the gadgets.

• 1:08:22Ramit Sethi?

  Clothes, maybe.

• 1:08:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:23Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:24Speaker 02

  What is the biggest blurd that you regularly make for your health?

• 1:08:29Speaker 01

  Oh, personal trainer. Yeah.

• 1:08:30Speaker 02

  Who's more disciplined about their diet?

• 1:08:32Speaker 01

  Remit. I like chocolate.

• 1:08:36Speaker 02

  So your home in New York that we are all staying in right now catches on fire and you can take three things out of it? What are those three things gonna be?

• 1:08:43Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:08:44Ramit Sethi?

  I don't really care.

• 1:08:46Speaker 01

  My computer.

• 1:08:47Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:08:47Speaker 01

  You and my blankie. Yes, I have a blankie.

• 1:08:51Ramit Sethi?

  Go ahead. Open it up.

• 1:08:55Speaker 01

  No, keep moving.

• 1:08:56Ramit Sethi?

  No, no, no. We talked about [BLEEP] little spoon over here. Care to follow up, Julie?

• 1:09:01Speaker 02

  These are supposed to be rapid fire.

• 1:09:03Ramit Sethi?

  [BLEEP] this rapid fire. Dial in. Mike Wallace, get in on this. You have to follow up, please.

• 1:09:07Speaker 02

  Unfortunately...

• 1:09:08Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, I'm taking the mic. What's a, what's a blankie?

• 1:09:11Speaker 02

  This is the host seat.

• 1:09:12Ramit Sethi?

  I know, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. What's a blankie?

• 1:09:14Speaker 01

  A blankie is something that comforts you during sad times.

• 1:09:17Ramit Sethi?

  You're a grown woman, you have a blankie?

• 1:09:19Speaker 01

  I do. I love it too. And I would take it if there was a fire. Julie, do you have a blankie?

• 1:09:25Speaker 02

  No, of course not.

• 1:09:26Ramit Sethi?

  What message do you want to share with other women who may have a blankie?

• 1:09:30Speaker 01

  It's okay if you have a blankie.

• 1:09:33Ramit Sethi?

  I would take, I don't really care. I mean, stuff is stuff. I don't really find much meaning in it, so.

• 1:09:38Speaker 02

  So you would just grab your laptop and go or nothing?

• 1:09:40Ramit Sethi?

  Not even.

• 1:09:41Speaker 02

  You wouldn't grab your laptop, really?

• 1:09:42Ramit Sethi?

  It's backed up.

• 1:09:43Speaker 02

  Okay, okay. So you'd grab nothing?

• 1:09:45Ramit Sethi?

  I would grab cass and, I don't know, things are things.

• 1:09:48Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:09:48Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, I guess.

• 1:09:50Speaker 02

  Okay. What's one high priority life goal you haven't achieved yet?

• 1:09:54Speaker 01

  For me, it's one, how do I give back? Like, I have so many causes that I'm passionate about and I want to explore. So I think I get analysis paralysis a little bit on what cause is most meaningful and how do I go about it? But yeah, that's something I want to explore over the next few years and dive into.

• 1:10:14Ramit Sethi?

  I was very fortunate to have a lot of scholarships that helped me get through college and grad school. And I was like incredibly inspired by it. I tried to start a scholarship when I was younger. Crazy enough, like, nobody applied. So I have a big vision for giving back. So we've been talking a little bit more about that, but that is something that is going to happen for sure. I want us to both be stewards of our money. I want us to be able to have fun talking about it. And honestly, I don't always get it right. As we've discovered, we need that partnership. But I don't think it's a healthy part of a relationship that one person, even if they are more experienced, or even if one person earns more money, I think it's gotta be both.

• 1:10:58Speaker 02

  All right, well, thank you for taking us along with your rich life. And I loved hearing about everything from the spreadsheets to the splurges. And it's been an honor just as a friend to see what can happen in life when people have a real partnership, real communication, an inspiring vision, what you can build. It's so much more than a rich relationship. It's a rich life. So thank you for leading by example. Thank you for having me and thank you for sharing so many personal stories today.

• 1:11:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you.

• 1:11:32Ramit Sethi?

  Thanks, Julie.

• 1:11:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you.

• 1:11:34Ramit Sethi?

  I want to give a big thanks to Julie Nguyen, who did an amazing job hosting and asking tough questions that Cassandra and I have never been asked or answered publicly. Of course, I want to give a huge thank you to Cassandra, not only for coming on the show, but more importantly, for working through money and creating a rich life together, which I love her for every day. You know, I started this podcast to hear how real couples talk about money from behind closed doors. But being in the hot seat, I can tell you, it is way harder than it looks. After our conversation, I was physically exhausted. I took the rest of the day off. I just sat on the couch. I have a whole new respect for the guests who come on the show

• 1:12:18Ramit Sethi?

  and share the intimate details of their lives. So, thank you. And I also realized something I didn't expect. It feels good to talk about these things out loud. On a personal note, that was really hard for me. In my culture, we don't share these things publicly. That's one reason that it's so rare to see Indian people on reality TV. It's just not part of our culture. But I have learned through the work that I've been doing for over 20 years, that talking about our challenges, together with people who we trust, who want the best for us, can help us connect more deeply. Sometimes connect with our partner, sometimes connect with ourselves. I wanted to record this to show you that even the guy who wrote two books on money, talks about this every day,

• 1:13:03Ramit Sethi?

  doesn't have everything figured out. And that actually gives me a ton of compassion for the people who I work with. That's why when people come on here and 50% of them don't know how much they make, I get it. Because there are a lot of things in my life I don't know even today. And I know how hard this stuff is because I'm living it. So is Cassandra. And that makes me appreciate you even more. My hope is that by sharing our story, you can see that in order to live a rich life, not everything has to be perfect and dialed in. You've got to acknowledge what's working, celebrate it, and then acknowledge what's not, and work on it together. Thanks for watching. I appreciate you. And I want to thank you for letting us share our story. If you want my help with your specific money questions,

• 1:13:47Ramit Sethi?

  you can apply to be on this podcast at iwt.com/apply, or you can become a member of my money coaching program instantly at iwt.com/moneycoaching. In Money Coaching, you get access to monthly calls where I answer your questions directly on a private call, and I get the chance to go much deeper on the concepts of money that have made a huge change in my life. Plus, you'll get access to a community of other people like you who will inspire you and push you to live your rich life. Check out Money Coaching at iwt.com/moneycoaching.