EP 60: Scott Raney and Satish Dharmaraj (Investors, Redpoint) Breakdown Venture Capital and Why AI Will Be Bigger Than Mobile

Scott Raney and Satish Dharmaraj are Redpoint's most senior investors and both appeared on the Forbes Midas List in 2022. Having invested in companies like Stripe, HashiCorp, Snowflake, and Sonos - they go through their perspectives on where everything's headed, AI, the venture ecosystem as it stands, how our partnership works, and more. (0:00) Intro (1:24) Welcome Satish and Scott (7:27) Venture firm structures (19:02) Partner dynamics (27:31) Operating with imperfect information (32:52) How do you think about pricing? (37:10) Great managers vs great leaders (40:16) Getting into venture (48:32) Thoughts on AI (54:04) VC Industry dynamics and trends Show Notes: https://www.redpoint.com/our-people/satish-dharmaraj/ https://www.forbes.com/profile/satish-dharmaraj/?sh=5567bf761409 https://www.redpoint.com/our-people/scott-raney/ https://www.forbes.com/profile/scott-raney/?sh=6f67cc227fbb Satish Dharmaraj is an American entrepreneur, speaker, angel investor and venture capitalist, who currently serves as a general partner with Redpoint Ventures. In 2021, he was placed #6 on the Forbes Midas List of top 100 Venture Capital investors. Prior to Redpoint Ventures, Satish Dharmaraj founded Zimbra, which he then sold to Yahoo! for $350 million, in 2007. Scott Raney is a Partner with Redpoint Ventures focusing on information and consumer technology with a particular emphasis on cloud computing, on-demand software, enterprise infrastructure, and mobile apps and platforms. In 2022, he was placed #39 on the Forbes Midas List of top 100 Venture Capital investors. Prior to venture capital, Raney worked at two startups that ultimately went out of business. Mixed and edited: Justin Hrabovsky Produced: Rashad Assir Executive Producer: Josh Machiz Music: Griff Lawson 🎙 Listen to the show Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/three-cartoon-avatars/id1606770839 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5WqBqDb4br3LlyVrdqOYYb?si=3076e6c1b5c94d63&nd=1 Google Podcasts: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9zb0hJZkhWbg 🎥 Subscribe on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCugS0jD5IAdoqzjaNYzns7w?sub_confirmation=1 Follow on Socials 📸 Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/theloganbartlettshow 🐦 Twitter - https://twitter.com/loganbartshow 🎬 Clips on TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@theloganbartlettshow About the Show Logan Bartlett is a Software Investor at Redpoint Ventures - a Silicon Valley-based VC with $6B AUM and investments in Snowflake, DraftKings, Twilio, Netflix. In each episode, Logan goes behind the scenes with world-class entrepreneurs and investors. If you're interested in the real inside baseball of tech, entrepreneurship, and start-up investing, tune in every Friday for new episodes. Executive Producer: Rashad Assir Producer: Leah Clapper Mixing and editing: Justin Hrabovsky Check out Unsupervised Learning, Redpoint's AI Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@UCUl-s_Vp-Kkk_XVyDylNwLA 🎥 Subscribe on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCugS0jD5IAdoqzjaNYzns7w?sub_confirmation=1 Follow on Socials 📸 Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/theloganbartlettshow 📱 X - https://twitter.com/loganbartshow 🎬 Clips on TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@theloganbartlettshow About the Show Logan Bartlett is a Software Investor at Redpoint Ventures - a Silicon Valley-based VC with $6B AUM and investments in Snowflake, DraftKings, Twilio, and Netflix. In each episode of The Logan Bartlett Show, we sit down with the people behind today’s most important startups and extract the tactics, lessons, and frameworks they’ve learned the hard way. Conversations span hiring to GTM, product, growth, fundraising and everything in between - collectively forming the ultimate playbook to make you a better CEO, investor or board member. Tap follow and enable notifications to stay ahead of the game.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Logan Bartlett?

  Welcome to the 60th episode of the Logan Bartlett Show. I am your host, Logan Bartlett, and what you're going to hear on this episode is something a little different. This is a conversation I've wanted to have for a long time with two of my partners, the senior most investors at our firm, Scott Raney, as well as Satish Dharmaraj. Scott been at Redpoint for a long time, making investments in notable companies like Twilio, HashiCorp, and Stripe, among a number of others. Satish is a former entrepreneur, having been backed by both Redpoint and Benchmark in his last business. He also has made investments in notable companies like Snowflake in the very, very early stages, as well as Zendesk, Sonos, Nextdoor, among a bunch of others. This was a really fun conversation to hear

• 0:49Logan Bartlett?

  their perspectives on where everything's headed and the ecosystem as it stands, how our partnership works and all of that. So, thanks to them for finally coming on. They're both fairly presh shy and they haven't done any interviews in a long time. And so, it took a lot of coaxing to get them on, but a really fun conversation. Before we get to that, please, whatever podcast platform you're listening to this on, give a five-star review if you're enjoying what we're doing, as well as subscribing on YouTube. We're trying to get the counts up on both of those. It helps other people discover the podcast. And so, that is really appreciated. But, without further ado, my partners, Satish and Scott. I want you to know, neither of you guys have much stuff, like, out there. Neither of you have videos or any... Satish, you have some from like a decade ago that I went

• 1:32Logan Bartlett?

  back and watched last night. But like cumulative time that you guys have of things that I could prep, it was like maybe an hour and a half.

• 1:40Speaker 01

  Hey, so, before we start?

• 1:44Logan Bartlett?

  We've started, so.

• 1:47Speaker 01

  Before we start with going down further? I'm really concerned here a little bit um about your performance um.

• 1:58Logan Bartlett?

  Is this, this is actually a performance review?

• 2:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is, you know, I mean, I see you on Twitter fucking 24 by 7.

• 2:04Logan Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 2:05Speaker 01

  I see you with all this podcast. I see you all doing all kinds of stuff. When do you fucking do work?

• 2:11Logan Bartlett?

  Yeah, like for instance, how many deals have you done in the last 12 months? Zero. Yeah. Yeah. Doesn't surprise us. Yeah. Does not surprise us at all. It depends if you how you define.

• 2:19Speaker 01

  I wouldn't be able to do any, Scotty, would you be able to, I wouldn't be able to do any deal either if I was doing all the.

• 2:24Logan Bartlett?

  I was trying to become a media celebrity.

• 2:26Speaker 01

  Media celebrity as a rock star.

• 2:28Logan Bartlett?

  Focusing on his job. I uh, the good news, the good news in that is I think any deal that I would have done over the last year would be marked down significantly. So that's the way I justify it to myself.

• 2:38Speaker 01

  Isn't that, isn't that the case with all the other deals you've done as well?

• 2:42Logan Bartlett?

  That's not much different than two years prior. What's different about that? Yeah, yeah. Uh, well, I, I appreciate you guys doing this. I think this is, so this is our new uh, studio thing in our office.

• 2:54Speaker 01

  I like it.

• 2:55Logan Bartlett?

  We were not using this uh, space. So we actually turned it into something real, but I know I had to begrudgingly kind of pull teeth to get you guys to do this. So and Satish didn't even realize we were actually recording here today.

• 3:07Speaker 01

  I did not. I thought it was a prep meeting and I was gonna talk to you about how it's a terrible idea to have me on a podcast.

• 3:14Logan Bartlett?

  No, it's great. You, you, you, you, all your stuff that I was listening to is super interesting, but I, Satish, I want to start. I didn't know there was a bet among Zimbra employees that you weren't actually gonna make it and venture.

• 3:25Speaker 01

  That's correct.

• 3:26Logan Bartlett?

  Why? So Zimbra was your company you founded?

• 3:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:29Logan Bartlett?

  So you founded the business when?

• 3:31Speaker 01

  2003.

• 3:32Logan Bartlett?

  2003, raised money from Redpoint and Benchmark.

• 3:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:35Logan Bartlett?

  And.

• 3:36Speaker 01

  And Excel.

• 3:37Logan Bartlett?

  And Excel. And ultimately sold it when?

• 3:40Speaker 01

  Uh, 2007.

• 3:41Logan Bartlett?

  For?

• 3:42Speaker 01

  350.

• 3:43Logan Bartlett?

  350 and you raised 25 million bucks. So a good outcome.

• 3:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:46Logan Bartlett?

  Uh, and then you came over and worked here.

• 3:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:49Logan Bartlett?

  And there was a bet among Zimbra employees that you weren't gonna last?

• 3:52Speaker 01

  Yes. Uh, in fact, Kevin Harvey, who's one of the founders of Benchmark, was one of the biggest uh, kind of better saying that I won't make it and venture.

• 4:02Logan Bartlett?

  And why was that?

• 4:03Speaker 01

  Because they thought I had no patience for it, that I would think it's a bunch of bullshit and walk away.

• 4:09Logan Bartlett?

  And all of that was true.

• 4:11Speaker 02

  All those are true, except that he didn't walk away.

• 4:13Logan Bartlett?

  He stuck with it. He stuck with it. Well, it is interesting. I mean, you go from, we see CEOs becoming venture investors and you go from like the ability to have all ownership of everything to having no ownership of like anything with the companies, right? You're just like advising it. So was that a weird transition for you?

• 4:28Speaker 01

  It's interesting. For me, the harder transition was not that, was the harder transition was my own role inside of Redpoint, uh, which is, I, um, I have this theory that as you, as you become better and better in, in managing people and trusting people to do their jobs, that as the CEO, you, you say, okay, I'm going to hire the head of sales and I'm going to trust the head of sales with, with her or his response, you know, functional areas. And as you abstract yourself more and more, the next level of, of abstraction is away from being the CEO to like being a board member and, and, and then allowing the CEO to do their jobs.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  But I found it much more difficult inside of Redpoint because there is, everything is, and when we came in, uh, when I came in, there was like 10 partners, uh, 10 MDs. And so everything is a group decision. So everything from hiring someone to leasing a space or doing an event or, or anything like that, or sponsoring anything. Everything is like, okay, let's go talk to 10 people and have five people question you versus, so it was more of a challenge internally.

• 5:44Speaker 02

  I'd say that a couple of things on that though, that are really important to understand is Satish came on at a period of time when we were in the midst of a transition. We had had our founder group. And, um, we were building out the next generation of which I was one of those folks.

• 5:57Logan Bartlett?

  This was 2007?

• 5:59Speaker 02

  Seven, 2008, in that timeframe. Satish joined as one of the next.

• 6:02Speaker 01

  I joined 2009.

• 6:04Speaker 02

  Nine, nine, yeah. And, um, uh, you know, so we had a big group because we had like the previous generation and this upcoming next, next generation as a result. As you go through that period of time, it actually is pretty challenging because you have a lot of people around the table. And I, you know, I'm incredibly thankful to our founders for the way that they handled that process and managed it. But Satish come on board was the single most important thing that's ever happened to Red Point outside of its founding. And it was because he was who he is, and because of the experience he had, that he helped us basically question everything. And he didn't take status quo. He didn't take the status quo as acceptable. And he basically, in his way, in a way that

• 6:46Speaker 02

  only he can do it, challenged a lot of our assumptions and helped us step forward. I think if he'd come in and been like, oh, this is all stupid, we need to do it differently, there would have probably been some immunorejection. But Satish is such a lovable character and such a powerful leader that he was able to get everybody to kind of recognize, we do need to step forward, we do need to progress. And it was really, really fun to watch. It was great for me because I was one of the people that had been on since 2000. And I wasn't able to affect some of those changes because I was the, I'd been the junior person who was kind of growing up into a position. He came on as, you know, one of the next generation people was actually able to make that happen. And I'm, you know, I'm super thankful.

• 7:27Logan Bartlett?

  The, the structure of venture firms, as I think about it, there's kind of three models. One is like the, the partnership that we have, right? One is kind of the CEO or founder model that General Catalyst has, and Sequoia has, and Insight has, and whatever. There's generally one leader at the top. And then there's kind of like the distributed P and L model to some extent where it's a hold co. And then people kind of run their own individual businesses underneath it, under a single umbrella. The hard part about the partnership model, which we have is, to your point, it's, it is hard to make consensus decisions, right? And you're structured in a way that it's a great place to work, but doing office space, or doing a website, or hiring people and sponsoring. Or deal decisions. Deal decisions, all those things. Like, how do you actually make those, those decisions?

• 8:08Logan Bartlett?

  And so I guess, what, in, in doing that, like that process and that evolution was, obviously there was a transition to a next generation that you, you guys were a part of. But, and did you restructure, like how some of those things were actually made from a decisioning standpoint, either investment wise, or whatever, all the other stuff wise?

• 8:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, so, you know, first couple of years, you know, things were pretty inefficient because we would have ten, eleven people making deal decisions. And honestly, they were suboptimal, as you would imagine.

• 8:42Logan Bartlett?

  Just because you go to the lowest common denominator.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, because, you know, we're in the business of taking risk. And every decision you make, you're making with imperfect data, with, with a lot of uncertainty around it. And so when you have ten really, really, really smart people discussing it, it, you, you make average decisions.

• 9:03Logan Bartlett?

  And the cynic always sounds smartest, right? Generally, especially at the early stage.

• 9:07Speaker 01

  You may, you do average deals that everyone is slightly comfortable with versus. And so Scotty and I came up with a structure where we had subgroups. So we had the infrastructure software subgroup that Scotty, me, John Waleczka and Tim were part of. And then we had the consumer subgroup with which Chris Moore and Jeff Brody and Jeff Yang were part of. And so we started making decisions a little bit like what you were talking about in, in battery, where there's a CEO for subgroup and you make that decision internally. So I think that helped a lot.

• 9:40Logan Bartlett?

  That helped on the, the investment decisioning side. What about all the other stuff?

• 9:44Speaker 02

  You know, I think what ended up happening there too is that we ended up just realizing that we could trust one another. And I think we, we started to try to encourage people to make decisions. And we would defer in many cases. And so we broke into these little committees in terms of how we think about operating the firm, you know, the, the back office stuff and all those things. And we started to push decisions down to those groups. If it was a really big decision, they'd come to the big group and say, I want to do this. Here's why. And, you know, for the most part, we would just defer.

• 10:11Logan Bartlett?

  That's kind of still how we are today, right?

• 10:13Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 10:13Logan Bartlett?

  I'll do budget, I'll do founder experience.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 10:16Logan Bartlett?

  Come back together.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  And this is an artifact of that.

• 10:18Logan Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 10:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I think it's really important. I mean, one of the things that. You know, I had this epiphany at some point with the way that we were managing our firm where we, we, we go to these board meetings with our startups and we tell them, you have to be lean, you have to be efficient, you have to be quick and nimble, make fast decisions.

• 10:33Logan Bartlett?

  Yeah, fire fast, hire fast.

• 10:35Speaker 02

  And then I'd come back to Redpoint and I'd be thinking about how we were managing the firm on a day-to-day basis. And it was like being at a Fortune 500 company sometimes it felt like, you know, and so we really needed to rethink that. And that all happened probably in the 2010, 11, 12 timeframe.

• 10:49Logan Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 10:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. Where we, we started to try to act like a startup ourselves. And we're more like that now than ever. I mean, every year, I think we get more and more confidence in our ability to do this. And I think that we're as, you know, quick and nimble as we've ever been as a result. And it's really about your agency and, and giving everybody the, the, the, um, the authority and ability to make decisions.

• 11:12Logan Bartlett?

  One, one thing I give the founding group a lot of credit for, and you all as well, as you took more and more of that mantle though, is there's this, I sort of think about it as the Steve Jobs and the transition to John Sculley when you're with Apple. When you're not the founder of something, you can be paralyzed by the desire to drive on the, down the road and not potentially be off, right?

• 11:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 11:35Logan Bartlett?

  And to some extent, to be able to continue to change and evolve, you have to be willing to take the autonomy to burn things down or take the risk that you might blow it up, right? And I give the founders a lot of credit for their willingness to step back and not sort of hang over our shoulders with the decisioning. And they, we were with them all yesterday and they did a great job.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  Right. No, they're, they're great at that. In fact, Timmy encourages that, you know, Tim Haley.

• 11:58Logan Bartlett?

  Tim Haley, who's been on Netflix's board for whatever, 30 years.

• 12:02Speaker 01

  30 years.

• 12:03Logan Bartlett?

  And one of the founders of the firm.

• 12:03Speaker 01

  Continues to be on that board and one of the founders. And also my board member and, you know, at Zimbra and the company, and One Box, the company before then. Um, so I have, and he recruited me into Redpoint. Anyway, he, you know, I would go, I would go with them, I would go with all these issues. He would be like, just burn it down. That's your job, you know? So he would encourage that actively.

• 12:24Logan Bartlett?

  Yeah. And so, so was that something like as you guys, uh, cause I actually don't even really know this transition. So, so 2009, you came in and then over some period of time, there was kind of this like recognition that there was going to be a new generation that sort of took over the two different groups. And was that sort of how it evolved over time? And you, you both are kind of the, the vestige of that prior group to some extent. If you go around our MD. Group, no one, I mean, you've been there the longest and you're the ones with the most continuity.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  The last two, the last two standing.

• 12:55Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 12:56Logan Bartlett?

  For now.

• 12:57Speaker 01

  For now.

• 12:57Logan Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah. So was that, was that something that was stated or did it just end up happening that way?

• 13:04Speaker 01

  Uh, no, it was, it was definitely something that, uh, we worked towards. It wasn't like it just happened that way. Uh, we knew that we were going to do it and Scotty and I had a conversation afterwards saying, okay, let's do a fund together and then you focus on growth and I'll focus on early. So it was all explicit.

• 13:22Logan Bartlett?

  Yeah. And on the, uh, investment decisioning process, right? And the growth to early transition. So when, when did you all each start focusing? When did you move over to focusing really on early?

• 13:34Speaker 01

  When Omega 4 was raised.

• 13:35Logan Bartlett?

  Omega 4, okay. So that was, uh, Omega 3, you were still sort of doing both.

• 13:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:40Speaker 02

  Does everybody know what Omega is?

• 13:41Logan Bartlett?

  Yeah, probably not. We, we use this term all the time. So Omega is our early growth fund that Scott and I are on the team for, along with our partners Elliot and Jason. And then the early team is, is Satish, uh, Annie Kadabi, Alex Bard and Erica Bresch. Uh, so, so that was an explicit decision that you guys kind of made early on was you were going to divide and conquer in some ways.

• 14:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think for, for a long time, we had operated both those, those, those funds with one single, uh, managing director group. But in reality, there are a few of us who spent a disproportionate time on the early growth side. And then the rest were spending most of their time on early. And, um, that worked well for a while, but at some point when we realized we wanted to make investments to kind of strengthen each of those groups on an, on an individual basis. We recognized that having one big group, it, it started to feel a little bit like,

• 14:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:29Speaker 02

  like what it did back in 2009 where we had this, we were having this big group and, and, you know, so we ended up separating the, the, um, investment management committees and creating the two separate groups. Satish and I, even after, during the middle of that transition, he were, he and I had always spent about half and half our time on both, right? And we said, we'll do one where we're, we're still half and half, but then we're going to transition to where you'll do a hundred percent of yours on early. And you'll, and I'll do a hundred percent of my time on early growth. And, um, to kind of make that, that was the final step in that transition for us, kind of separating the investment management committees.

• 15:05Logan Bartlett?

  That happened, uh, Red Point 7 and that, what year was that?

• 15:10Speaker 01

  Red point seven is a 2018.

• 15:14Logan Bartlett?

  2018 and then for us it happened to 2021 really. I mean, in practice, you started, I guess that was sort of.

• 15:20Speaker 02

  It was really, yeah, but it was really in the course of the previous fund. And obviously, you know, there were Tom and Alan who are partners.

• 15:26Logan Bartlett?

  Sure. In terms of the, the actual investment decisioning and style, like early, you, you talk a lot about, about the, the consensus and the weighing down of the decisioning versus we try to be a little bit more consensus driven in our approach. What, why do you think that works for early and maybe not for us?

• 15:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think early is many, in many ways a bet on people and markets versus on, you know, versus on, so it's more of an art and not a science. So there's no numbers, there's no, you know, churn numbers and revenue growth and, and KPIs. And so you had to get, make a more gut level decision. A lot of it is based on how amazing you think the founders are. That's a large portion of the bet. And then the second portion of the bet is how big is the market? Because obviously we want to, we want to have home runs, right? The power law works and so those are the, those are the questions we're trying to ask. And that's a little bit more subjective.

• 16:31Logan Bartlett?

  Yeah, especially on the people side. The market side can be a little bit more objective, but.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:36Speaker 02

  But given, given the level of risk that you're taking whenever you do a seed or series A, you know, getting consensus is really, really hard too. And if you are getting consensus, you just have to ask yourself, are we taking enough risk? Because the, the key to success of an early stage venture fund is really embracing the idea that we're really swinging for the fences.

• 16:53Logan Bartlett?

  And why do you think consensus works for us at the sort of slightly more growth?

• 16:57Speaker 02

  The, the thing, before I answer that, I'm going to say the one thing, even with us, ultimately in venture capital, it's about one person in the firm pounding the table and saying, I really, really want to be in this company. Right? And I think in early stage, you have one or two people that feel that way. Then, you know, what you have to do is if you've hired that person, they're in a position of, of trust and a senior leader of that firm, you basically need to defer to them. If that's what they want to do, you've hired them to do that, let them do it. For us, I think when you get to early growth, I think that there are some, there is some data. And so we need to agree on the fact base is what I would say. And the consensus, I think that we build is really around that we agree on the fact base. What is working, what isn't working?

• 17:38Speaker 02

  There's always the challenge that we face, which is around, you kind of get pushed to the point of indifference on a lot of these deals based on pricing. And it's really about the level of conviction you have about how big this company could be. Right? And even there, I think that there's not always consensus in our group, but there's generally a fair amount. But there still needs to be one or two people that say, I think it's going to be really big. And as a result, we should stretch and do it at the price that we need to do it at. Right? So I think that's, there's subtle differences, but I think that that's really what we mean by consensus.

• 18:08Logan Bartlett?

  Do you think people and markets are still what we're investing in? And it's just a slightly different considerations at a product market and things?

• 18:18Speaker 02

  I think it's really important, the way that we approach what we call early growth. And we always put this modifier early in front of it because it's not traditional growth.

• 18:25Logan Bartlett?

  Series B and series C.

• 18:26Speaker 02

  So these are companies that are just, just getting past some level of product market fit. Things are just starting to work, but there's still a ton of work to be done, right? And these companies. And so, you know, I think that we are taking a lot of risk, you know? And I think we're, we're embracing more risks than that a growth fund for sure. And as a result, you know, we have this decision process, which we call consensus, but it's still very much a leap of faith at some level. And we have to be comfortable taking those risks if we want to deliver the kind of returns that we want to. Cause we're trying to that fund, deliver early stage venture returns at a, you know, at this early growth stage.

• 19:01Logan Bartlett?

  Yeah. What about partnership dynamics? You guys are close friends, very different. You give each other, I think, an appropriate hard time that I certainly get a kick out of. What do you think about shaping different personalities within the group? And how you try to make sure you have a different composition of types of people and leaders and all that?

• 19:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, first of all, Scotty and I, we go back. Literally twenty, twenty-five years, uh, because when I, when I, when I started my first company, One Box, and then became an EIR, I was with Scotty at Redpoint, he would never do any work back then, just like now.

• 19:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  Uh, and, uh, you know, uh, that's, that's when I, you know, that's when I started realizing what this venture capital job was all about.

• 19:47Speaker 02

  That you can hang out.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  I can just hang out.

• 19:49Speaker 02

  Podcasting.

• 19:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Memes. Anyway, so we have like this deep trust that goes way beyond, uh, uh, with time. And then the second thing is I actually respect, right? Uh, you know, we both were, have been in the business a long time and I respect his craft and he respect mine and we have like this complementary skillset. When we're, we're in the same team, we would always bounce each other off and I, I would bounce, bounce, bounce off, hey, you know, Scotty's one of the best, he can look at a company and give a great analysis of, you know, hey, here are the, here are the problems. I can look at people and do the same, right? So, um, so there's that.

• 20:31Speaker 01

  And so when we, when we started hiring people and, uh, obviously the kinds of people you need at an early stage is different than the kinds of people you need in, in growth. But then we would always consult each other, uh, just to, the baseline kind of metrics is, hey, is this person a good culture fit with this firm and can, can challenge and work alongside us in a way that is, you know, beneficial for the, for the fund and the firm.

• 21:03Speaker 02

  Is that, I amplify a couple of things. First of all, Satish, if you were to describe, he's an instinctual investor, like he knows probably within the first five minutes of a meeting, whether or not he actually, you know, will want to invest in this company or not.

• 21:16Speaker 01

  And will know too, by the way, based on the level of questions he's asking.

• 21:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Like it's, it's like that for Satish, uh, generally. For me, I'm, I'm, I'm way more analytical and, and so I will think through things, I'll think through the pros and cons and, and, you know, my skillset, I think as a result, I really love the early growth stuff because I think that.

• 21:35Speaker 02

  Applies, but it was awesome to have this combination where he could be instinctual like his gut feel on teams and products and markets and I could help think through maybe hey let's double click on this or double click on that and it be that it you know that skill set is something I think that together was great but also it's reflective of the team that we built now which is that combination of kind instincts and you know people that have been on the front lines of building these businesses as operators plus folks who have the ability to really think and break down businesses but you he said one thing that's important is like what hire for culture and I think maybe we should define

• 22:08Logan Bartlett?

  Yeah, what is our culture? Yeah.

• 22:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think it's like you know first of all Redpoint was founded by a group three people from two different firms who came together to create Redpoint and they were all friends and the idea was that they would form a different type of fund one that would work closely together it wasn't going to be a collection of individuals going off in a bunch of different directions but a team that would kind of approach investing and supporting our companies as a group right and so what do we look for we look for people think that way right we think for people who want to be a part of a team who want to work with others we look for people that are open and honest and transparent and also can accept that so we can have very direct conversations here at Redpoint about how we feel about companies or decision making or whatever and we don't have to worry about hurting one another's feelings we recognize that it's coming from a good place it's open honest there's but there's there's trust and as a result we can have really productive conversations that way and then you know the last thing is we just want to hire really good people like people that we really respect and like and believe are going to do the right things and you know as a result when you do all that you put it together what does that mean it's a it's a lot of fun to be here it's a lot it's it's an amazing set of folks who we are able to have a good time we I think we take the job very seriously but we don't take ourselves very seriously you know kind of a low ego place like that

• 23:25Logan Bartlett?

  As evidenced by Siti's sweatshirt.

• 23:27Speaker 02

  Exactly. As evidenced by everything he does.

• 23:31Logan Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:32Speaker 02

  And so, yeah, that's what's made it such a great place.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  Yep, but just one thing, as he was talking, I was reminded many, many times, we used to have this office next to each other. I would walk into Scotty's office after a meeting and say, your job is to convince me why I shouldn't do this deal. And he saved me many times on that.

• 23:50Logan Bartlett?

  Are there any examples of, I don't know, Snowflake or an example of like a great success that was the right pairing of the two of you working together on, is Snowflake the right one?

• 24:00Speaker 01

  I think Snowflake is the right one, actually.

• 24:03Logan Bartlett?

  It worked out.

• 24:04Speaker 01

  It worked out and it's always great. Hindsight is 2020, right? So it's great now to look back on it after it worked out and say, oh my God, we were geniuses to figure that out. But, you know, I met this deal on a Wednesday or something like that. And on Thursday, I talked to Scotty and said, and hey, this is a cloud data warehouse, building 100% in the cloud.

• 24:29Logan Bartlett?

  This is 2012, right?

• 24:30Speaker 01

  2013.

• 24:31Logan Bartlett?

  13, Mike Spicer from Sutter Hill.

• 24:34Speaker 01

  Spicer had incubated it.

• 24:36Logan Bartlett?

  Had incubated it. They had come out of Oracle.

• 24:38Speaker 01

  They had come out of Oracle. There were three engineers and the product was still being built, which is a great stage for us. We want to, we want to do deals before the product is built. So the product was still being built and it's a database product. It's going to take a long time for it to be built. Then you got to figure out product market fit. So I was talking to Scotty and we basically said, that's data warehouses are big. They're big, big markets. Cloud, that transition is going to happen.

• 25:05Speaker 02

  Redshift was the fastest growing business in AWS.

• 25:08Speaker 01

  Yes, Scotty had had that data that he said, hey, from his, you know, he had, he had done some work in that area and said Redshift is the fastest growing business instead of Amazon, instead of AWS.

• 25:22Speaker 01

  And so we're like, okay, that's a great market. Then we just fell in love with the founders. I mean, these, these, these, these three French engineers were like.

• 25:34Speaker 01

  The best, I mean, top class, world class, and they were humble, had a lot of humility, knew what they were talking about, had really, really strong opinions that they're not going to succumb to on-premise pressures and only, only build in the cloud. And so we liked all of that. And then we had already moved into the subgroup structure, so we didn't have to convince 10 people. So we had to convince the four of us, John, Timmy, Scotty, and I. So we, we made a game plan for the weekend and spent the weekend in their, in their offices. And, you know, at dinner, we had dinner with them. By the end of dinner, we had taken the deal off the table.

• 26:09Logan Bartlett?

  All right. And this was a Sunday night, and they were supposed to have a bunch of partner meetings, right, the next day?

• 26:12Speaker 01

  Yes, correct.

• 26:13Logan Bartlett?

  Was, was that consensus among the group at the time, or was that a controversial one among the subgroup?

• 26:21Speaker 01

  Among the subgroup, it was totally consensus, consensus, there was consensus. And then among the larger group, at that time, we evolved to a place where we would go and say, hey, this subgroup has decided to do this deal. And everyone would say, okay, send me the deal memo. So, you know, Scotty knows your chance to make fun of my deal memos.

• 26:41Logan Bartlett?

  They're, you know, it didn't take them long to write it.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  So one page, and I was like, we should do this deal.

• 26:47Logan Bartlett?

  Crayon.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Like, a picture of a database, like, you know, those, the cylindrical things, and then we should do this deal.

• 26:55Logan Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 26:56Speaker 01

  And so we had a date memo, and we just said, we're do, hey, this weekend, we executed, we verbally agreed to a deal. And it was okay to do that back then.

• 27:07Logan Bartlett?

  Because the subgroup had signed up.

• 27:08Speaker 02

  Because the subgroup had signed up. And there was a lot of consensus in that subgroup, but it wasn't a controversial decision.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was not controversial at all.

• 27:14Speaker 02

  I mean, I think it was, the only controversy on that one was that we didn't get to run our normal process, so that the full group didn't get a chance to

• 27:20Speaker 01

  See it before it was done.

• 27:22Speaker 02

  See it before we did it, which was unusual. But we all felt that strongly about it. And again, you know, we got to the point where we just were trusting one another to make those kinds of decisions.

• 27:31Logan Bartlett?

  One thing, I guess, Peter Fenton, when I spoke to him about when he made the transition from Excel to Benchmark, I forget, maybe it was Kevin Harvey or someone said, "Throw out all that prepared mind bullshit." Because that was Excel's thing, is like have a prepared mind and come in very prepared in your, in the way you think about things. And I think Battery had a similar culture of like, "Let's go as deep as we can in individual sectors and make sure we know every single player that exists in the space." And I, to some extent, you need to play the game on the field as well and operate within perfect information and be able to make decisions based on what's in front of you. Do you think, I guess in this case, in the Snowflake case, there were some elements of,

• 28:13Logan Bartlett?

  you had that data about Redshift, but at the end of the day, you had to make a decision based on what the game was.

• 28:18Speaker 02

  I think it's really important, I mean, maybe it's this kind of a cop out, but I would say that you want to be informed, right? You want to know what's going on in spaces. You want to know that Redshift is exploding within AWS and that, you know, cloud data warehouses have the chance to be a big thing. But on the other hand, I don't, I always feel like you go where the entrepreneurs are. Like, there's a reason that we're sitting in the seats that we are and entrepreneurs are out there doing it. They're much smarter, much more in-depth in understanding of the markets and the opportunities. And so, we prepare ourselves in having great kind of purview and perspective on different categories and spaces. But in the end, I want to go where they are and where they tell me they're going. At that point in time, I want to have an open, fresh mind and perspective and lean into understanding that as best I can.

• 29:03Speaker 02

  But, look, if I'm sitting there coming up with like, "Let's go find the companies that are doing this and doing that." There's some VCs who have been very, very successful doing that. But I think, for me, it's, there's a mass of entrepreneurs out there doing amazing things. I'd rather have them figure out where they want to go and us figure out whether or not we want to go with them.

• 29:24Speaker 01

  I would say three things. One, he said, you know, entrepreneurs are smart. It doesn't take much to be smarter than Scotty, really, you know?

• 29:29Speaker 02

  No.

• 29:29Speaker 01

  So, I just want to put it out there.

• 29:34Speaker 01

  Fenton and Harvey and the story that's interesting, it just brought to my mind. They got to know each other at the Zimbra board.

• 29:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 29:41Speaker 01

  It was interesting, partway through Zimbra, Harvey hires Fenton.

• 29:46Logan Bartlett?

  Because Peter was at Excel and was on your board?

• 29:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 29:49Logan Bartlett?

  And then Harvey was at Benchmark and on your board?

• 29:51Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah, yeah. So they got to know each other at the Zimbra board. Then one day Harvey calls me on a reference and he says, "Hey, this is going to be awkward."

• 30:00Speaker 01

  But.

• 30:00Speaker 02

  Who, who did, uh, did they both stay on the board?

• 30:03Speaker 01

  Uh, no. So Fenton, uh, Axel had Teresa on the board after, um, Fenton left. But back to the ex experts on Redshift and Snowflake, my big thing with the early stage team is to always say, do expert calls, but don't believe in them. I, I personally don't, I don't, I don't believe in expert calls, to be honest with you. I mean, it's, I think it basically.

• 30:27Speaker 01

  Uh, Scotty's right. I mean, you've got to have the info, but insofar as it shakes your conviction, that's, that's the.

• 30:34Speaker 02

  So whatever he's deciding the first five minutes of a meeting, he doesn't want any data that might.

• 30:39Logan Bartlett?

  That's what I'm hearing.

• 30:40Speaker 02

  That is exactly what you're.

• 30:41Logan Bartlett?

  But I will say, I will say, like, having looked at the, that next round of Snowflake, we went and I was at Battery at the time, but we did a ton of work, right? And there, you can talk to a lot of people that said, hey, this isn't, this isn't smart. And we had that recent example, uh, with a company that we ended up investing in the series C, but at the series B, we talked to a lot of credible people that said, hey, we're going to fucking crush that, right? And to some extent, if you get too close to the insiders, of course they're going to say that, right? It's like a defensive mechanism.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  If you actually look at this, and I did write slightly more than one page after the crayon thing, I had like two calls that I did. They were both advising us not to do Snowflake. They're like, hey, Redshift has already won and they're going to run it over. And when Amazon finds a winning horse, they're going to back up their truck and this is going to win.

• 31:29Logan Bartlett?

  Which was the sentiment for sure. There was a long period of time from like 20, I don't know, 14 to 16 or 17. That was like, hey, you don't compete with Amazon. They're going to step on your throat technologically.

• 31:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I mean, we see that reflected in the margins of that business of the early days, the gross margins of Snowflake were really low. I mean, the realm that you looked at at Battery would have been a really, it was a challenging one to do. Because negative gross margins.

• 31:48Logan Bartlett?

  Negative gross margins, not a ton of customers at some step up in price. That was the one Ultimater ultimately ended up doing.

• 31:55Speaker 01

  Uh, I think that one, that was iconic, but yeah.

• 31:57Logan Bartlett?

  No, iconic was after Ultimater. It was Ultimater then iconic.

• 32:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:01Logan Bartlett?

  Yeah, I know, because I painfully remember. Well, you might have been involved with the company. I painfully remember each of them.

• 32:07Speaker 03

  Losing to them.

• 32:08Logan Bartlett?

  Yeah, I remember all the details around that. But what about what about pricing deals? Like how at that point, that snowflake ground was six?

• 32:17Speaker 01

  Sixty pre, we are raising fifteen. So, yeah, that was like a ridiculously expensive deal at that point because product is not built.

• 32:26Logan Bartlett?

  Pre revenue.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  Pre revenue, pre product.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  With three engineers and Mike Spicer is the acting CEO. But we had a lot of trust in Sutter and Spicer. Sutter and Spicer, the other thing is we go back along. Mike Spicer and I go back along where we were both at Yahoo together. And so we entered the venture business at the same time. You know, we had done pure storage together. And so there was a lot of trust there, too.

• 32:53Logan Bartlett?

  How do you think about pricing deals in general? And obviously, it's different between early stage and growth stage. But it's something we we consider a price, right? For sure, you can't not, especially at the stage we're investing in. But we also, this is one of the things I'm trying, at times I'll get caught up in is whether or not something makes sense as a deal. Right? And at the end of the day, I don't know if any of my investments have been right or wrong based on the deal pricing. And it's something that, and again, that's something you can say in a 10 year bull market or whatever we had for a long time. But how do you think about pricing of investments and like the importance of that?

• 33:28Speaker 02

  I mean, you've you've heard me say this a thousand times. And so I'll tell you one more time and you're going to roll your eyes. It's all about, for me, ultimately, how big you think a company can be. How big the market is, how great the team is, how likely it is that you think that they can be successful. And ultimately, then working back from there. So you think it can be a really, really big business, then you're going to think about it from like a dollar on dollar basis and work back from there in terms of just how far you think you can stretch, which is, you know, the the exercise that we all have to go through for the most exciting companies. I, you know, when we get into a discussion internally about like at some price, you know, if it was 20% less, I think I might be interested. I'm always a little bit like.

• 34:10Speaker 02

  You know, that feels to me like you're just not that convicted that this is a deal we should do.

• 34:14Logan Bartlett?

  I've come around on that, by the way, when we saw just how multiples have gone crazy over the last five years. I'm not even sure what any company should be worth. It was for a long time where, you know, 15 times trailing revenue was normal. And then it went to 50 times trailing revenue, then it went to 100. Now it's back down to 10 or something.

• 34:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:31Logan Bartlett?

  And it's like, it's so arbitrary, it feels like. But if something turns into Stripe, for example, or Snowflake, or whatever it is, like, it's going to be okay.

• 34:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:40Logan Bartlett?

  Regardless of that.

• 34:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, think about the Stripe round we did. This is in 2011, this was before that. We were, we were one of the co-leads on the Series B Stripe and that round was 500 pre. And that was, I mean.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a crazy round.

• 34:58Speaker 02

  It was an incredibly expensive round relative to where they were. And, and, you know, relative to every other deal.

• 35:05Speaker 01

  And a call option.

• 35:06Speaker 02

  Every other deal that was getting done and the way that was structured is we were investing some money upfront. And then they had a call for additional capital.

• 35:14Speaker 01

  Was it their option?

• 35:15Speaker 02

  At the same price, but, but, you know, basically they could take more. And, you know, I was just so convinced, I mean, this is, you know, this is one of those meetings where you walk in and I, I got a chance to meet Patrick Collison. And I remember just being completely annoyed in the conversation because at the time, I think he was probably 21, 22. And he was so much more sophisticated and thoughtful and experienced.

• 35:40Speaker 01

  Back to what I was saying before.

• 35:41Speaker 02

  Than I was, yeah. And certainly more than Satish was for sure.

• 35:46Speaker 02

  That, you know, I was just, and then I bet, you know, John as well over breakfast. And same exact feelings, like this is such a special team. And then you think about what they're trying to do and create the, the, they want to go after facilitating payments on the internet. And ultimately how big you think that can be. It was just like, for me, the calculus was never based on what's the multiple and all that stuff. It's like, this is just going to be a really massive business and we should do whatever it takes to get in it.

• 36:09Logan Bartlett?

  So what are the characteristics? I mean, you've been a founder, right? As you think about the successful founders you've worked with, what are the characteristics that you've seen in the, like, is there any commonalities between the different types? Or does it depend on the market? Or what are some of the non-negotiables for you with founders?

• 36:26Speaker 01

  Definitely depends on the, everything has the context of the market behind it. Obviously we hear about these stories where people pivot from, you know, like Slack is a great example, right? But. You can't bet on that. Um, so that is the context. Outside of that, um, I would say the biggest thing for me is are the founders able to attract other great people and hire them and listen to them, you know? Uh, so those are two different things because, you know, if you hire them and you're, you're still holding all, all the strings and you're not, you know, you gotta, you gotta paint the vision, but have to let go of the execution, you know?

• 37:09Speaker 01

  Um, so I think that's, that's what when we talk about people and, you know, we bet on people, it's like, hey, are these people that other people follow? That's the big question.

• 37:22Logan Bartlett?

  Yeah. What, what do you think? Like, what are you looking for? Are there?

• 37:24Speaker 02

  It's, I would say the, the same things for sure. I think that, uh, it's hard, you know, I get this question all the time and I don't know, I know when I see it a little bit. It's like you just people that are kind of, um, founders that are, um, inclined to action, inclined to get things done, um, ability to recruit great teams, the ability to listen, you know, kind of willingness to listen, uh, those kinds of things, insatiable, uh, appetite for knowledge, folks that are, you know, some of the best, uh, founders that I've worked with are people, obviously have never, many of them have never been CEOs before. And it's like every time I get together with them, they've read another book on leadership, you know, it's like they're, they, they just are.

• 38:03Logan Bartlett?

  There's that iterative learning element of it.

• 38:05Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 38:05Logan Bartlett?

  And, and it manifests itself. Ideally, you're, you're, you're seeing it in other ways that they're reading books and continuing to get better, but also seeing it manifest in ways that they don't touch the same stove over and over again.

• 38:15Speaker 02

  Exactly. Yeah. And, you know, I think that the, the, the founders that I, that I've worked with that have had the toughest time are the people that are a little static. You know, they, they just don't, it doesn't feel like they're growing as much as they might need to, to grow into that position. And so obviously our job then is to really try to help them grow. But, um, you know, the ones that, that seem to just understand that their job is about every, every month, their job is different than it was the month before. So they have to evolve and change are the ones that end up being the most successful.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  Oh, I don't believe in books on leadership.

• 38:43Logan Bartlett?

  Yeah. You don't? You can't read?

• 38:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. There's that problem. There's that problem. I can't read.

• 38:49Logan Bartlett?

  You don't believe in books in leadership?

• 38:50Speaker 01

  No.

• 38:51Logan Bartlett?

  You think that leadership is purely like an innate thing?

• 38:54Speaker 01

  It's a DNA thing.

• 38:55Logan Bartlett?

  Yeah, interesting.

• 38:56Speaker 02

  This is it's back to it's back to the instincts.

• 38:58Logan Bartlett?

  I know.

• 38:58Speaker 02

  You either have leadership instincts or you don't.

• 39:00Speaker 01

  You can become a better manager by reading books.

• 39:03Logan Bartlett?

  Okay, well, that's maybe.

• 39:04Speaker 01

  But you can become a better leader.

• 39:05Logan Bartlett?

  Maybe that's what we're talking about here. Maybe it's books on management.

• 39:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 39:09Logan Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 39:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can. You can learn to manage people better and all that, but I don't think leadership is that.

• 39:14Logan Bartlett?

  Yeah, interesting.

• 39:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 39:16Logan Bartlett?

  What about?

• 39:17Speaker 01

  Like Jack Welch is like a great manager, but like Martin Luther King is a great leader.

• 39:22Logan Bartlett?

  Interesting.

• 39:23Speaker 02

  Fascinating.

• 39:24Logan Bartlett?

  Yeah, I don't know if those.

• 39:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't understand.

• 39:26Logan Bartlett?

  I kind of get what he's saying of Jack Welch is like, he did a good job managing GE.

• 39:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you look at your ops and KPIs and all that stuff.

• 39:35Speaker 02

  Saying wasn't a great leader?

• 39:36Speaker 01

  I don't think he's a great. I yeah, okay. Yeah, I would say he's not a great leader. Okay.

• 39:42Logan Bartlett?

  What would MLK have done with GE? That's what that's what we really need to be answering. What about staying relevant in the industry? You guys are both obviously dinosaurs, but you've continued to stay relevant in the new trends and all of that. People will say this is a young man's game, and so that's maybe why you're dressed the way you are.

• 40:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 40:00Logan Bartlett?

  I how have you? How have you been able to like stay up on new trends and not actually, you know, calcify in what you learned?

• 40:08Speaker 01

  I just tweet a lot, blog a lot, you know, go on podcasts and just be relevant.

• 40:13Logan Bartlett?

  That's the best way to learn, actually. That's what I found.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  Actually, the business is interesting as you are, as you stay in it for a long time and you work with a lot of different entrepreneurs and a lot of different management teams, right? I think then you build a reputation, good or bad, and then that basically flows around and that's how you become relevant. You know, you're you're talking to entrepreneurs and they come to you and they they ask you, I mean, like just this morning, there was a deal that we did. I don't know, five, six years ago, and those guys are starting a new generative AI company and they're like, hey, we wanted to call you guys first because we had a great, you know, experience working with you. So does that? Obviously, we, you know, we're in the business, so we read a lot and we hire hire young people who who keep us honest and keep us in the flow.

• 41:02Logan Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 41:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. But you're right. This is not. This is a young person's game.

• 41:07Speaker 02

  I just think it's back to what we talked about. It's about having, being curious and constantly wanting to learn and grow. And I think many of the most successful venture capitalists are people that have done the same thing we just described about founders is that they're never getting pigeonholed in one place. They're always kind of thinking about what's next and what's next. I still get a real kick out of when we're finding a new area that we're excited about and really diving in and really trying to understand and learn as much as I can about that. And meet as many entrepreneurs in that space as I can. I still get a real kick out of that. And yeah, and I think one of the things though is I don't think that the way that I went about building my venture capital career, I don't think that could be done again in this age.

• 41:48Speaker 02

  Cause you've talked about me not being on podcasts, et cetera. I've never been interested in building a personal brand at all. I've actually always felt like at some level. It was, you know, I really, I always wanted to be in the background because I, I think the founders and the entrepreneurs are the ones that we should be celebrating. Right. But I think, you know, it's gotten to the point now where in some of the cases where to build a career in venture, you really do have to build a personal brand because there's so much noise in this space. That to get an entrepreneur to spend time with you, they have to understand who you are.

• 42:17Logan Bartlett?

  Yeah. It's interesting when people ask like, how did you get into the industry? That's my version of this. And I'm like, oh, listen, I can tell you the story, but it's not particularly relevant. Like those doors don't, those doors are all shut and they've been shut and they've been cemented over and they no longer look the exact way I did it. And you're going to have to find, there's, there's much different paths that you can get in and people are much more accessible via, I don't know, tweeting or DMs or emails or podcasts or whatever it is. Like there's much more knowledge out there, but it's not going to be the same way that, that you got in, that you got in, that I got in.

• 42:48Speaker 02

  I look at the, you know, the people we hire now and, and you know, the, the way that they approach, you know, building, building their brands. It's, it's, you know, it's important to do now. It's just, it's different than what it was like now.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  I'm just sitting here getting so scared. I was just wondering, I was just imagining how scared it would have been if you had to build your personal brand on the internet and everyone knew who you were.

• 43:09Speaker 02

  I know. Maybe part of the reason I didn't do it was because they didn't want people to know.

• 43:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 43:13Logan Bartlett?

  There's literally like nine minutes of Scott Raney, like on podcasts or videos out there. So we've now like tripled the amount of time of Scott Raney.

• 43:23Speaker 02

  And the reason I'm here, it's because you're sitting.

• 43:25Logan Bartlett?

  I know, I know. No, I appreciate, I appreciate you doing that. Another, I guess, thing that was enticing for me in coming over was it does have a. The management company structure and how each entity set up is different than a lot of firms, right? And so we talked about the different structures between the partnership and the CEO model and the P and L model. We have a pretty clean and different structure than I think most have. And I think a lot of that credit goes back to the founding group that set it up that way. But Satish, do you want to talk a little bit about how we're actually structured?

• 43:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think, again, a lot of, a lot of the credit goes back to the founders. But the way, the way we're structured, well, the best way to explain this is the way most venture capital firms are structured is there's a management company and each fund pays a tax to the management company in terms of carry. But we don't have that. We, you can think of us as, especially where the carry flows, each fund has its own carry. So there is no tax that you pay for, to the founders or, or other retired GPs in terms of carry every fund.

• 44:32Logan Bartlett?

  There's usually, other firms will have multiple levels and they'll say, hey, the founders get grandfathered in to the economics over time, or they say, hey, the

• 44:44Speaker 01

  20% of the carry goes to the management company. The management company is owned by the founders or something like that. Here, two things. One is 100% of the carry flows to the fund managers. And second, equally important is that we're an equal partnership, where if you're an MD in the, in the fund, you're a GP in the fund, then you get, you make as much money as the next GP next to you. That brings the team dynamic, which is part of our culture, into play, right?

• 45:13Speaker 02

  Before we retire, you and I ought to think about forming a management company here.

• 45:17Speaker 01

  I know.

• 45:17Logan Bartlett?

  That's right. Yeah, some people sell the management company.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's do that, Scotty.

• 45:23Logan Bartlett?

  You can monetize it.

• 45:24Speaker 01

  Whenever Logan stops tweeting and broadcasting.

• 45:27Speaker 02

  I'd love Logan to have to send me a tax.

• 45:29Speaker 01

  Oh, that would be amazing.

• 45:31Speaker 02

  Why is that important? It's important because basically, as we talked about, being able to operate nimbly as an organization, this allows us to do that. Every fund is a separate company. Like, you literally restart Red Point over every Time we raise a fund, the economics are reallocated and it means we can hire people in and they're not paying a tax. But also it allows us to kind of change in a dime. If we want to completely rethink the way that we operate, we can completely rethink the way that we operate and we do that, you know, we every fund we raise, we, one of the first things we do is we sit down and say, okay, what do we want to do differently this time? And in fact, we bring people on. I think you probably saw this in your experience. I mean, the expectation not just is that you're going to have a voice. Our expectation is you're going to change it in some way, you know, and if you're not, then that's a, that's a problem.

• 46:17Speaker 02

  So I love it. I love that we kind of embrace that. I love that's who we are. When I retire, I'm going to wish that we'd done it differently, but I, I think it's really important. I think it's what's going to allow, it's allowed Red Point to kind of make it through a generational transition and what is going to allow Red Point to thrive going forward.

• 46:35Logan Bartlett?

  You can't just bitch about stuff because you actually have to, you have the power to change things, right? And so you can't just say,

• 46:42Speaker 01

  You can be a whiner.

• 46:43Logan Bartlett?

  Yeah, you can't be a whiner about it. It's like, well, go fix it. If you have a problem with it, go do it.

• 46:47Speaker 02

  What are you going to do about it?

• 46:47Logan Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 46:48Speaker 02

  That's when, that's basically what happens every time somebody raises an issue. The question back to them is what are you going to do?

• 46:53Speaker 01

  You're equally empowered, you're equally economically incentivized. So what are you going to do about it?

• 46:58Logan Bartlett?

  Yeah, it's a, and it's one of those things that you think you want, and then you realize how much, how much work it is that, you know, it's a lot easier just to complain about things and not be able to enact change, but it is, yeah, it's empowering and unique. I do think the trends and stuff is an interesting component of it, right? And one of the things I've, my entire career in venture has been mostly riding one-ish trend, which is cloud and software by and large, right? That's sort of the entirety of it and

• 47:25Logan Bartlett?

  it's gotten, I mean, that, that trend to some extent, we, it became mainstream in 14, 15, 16, probably like prior to the snowflake investment, but along that way, it started to become pretty consensus. And now we're getting to the outer edges of like just playing the same hits over and over again, right? And so I've been hoping, and I think people have been hoping that there would be a new trend. And to some extent, we tried to force feed crypto as an industry down people's throats of like, hey, here's the new thing out there and we'll see.

• 47:55Speaker 02

  Be careful how you define we.

• 47:57Logan Bartlett?

  Yeah, well, we, we as an industry, not we as in red point necessarily, but we as an industry tried to do that. We've talked about those, those trends though, from a, from a perspective, you guys have seen the internet thing happen, the mobile thing happen, the cloud thing happen, and now this AI one, and then you've seen the failed ones, the bots and the crypto. I mean, I don't know if we want to call that failed just yet, but what are the, some of the other ones that have popped up?

• 48:21Speaker 01

  Scotty has seen the abacus happen.

• 48:23Speaker 02

  What is that? Yeah, the abacus. Yeah, you don't want to know what an abacus is? It's how we used to add before calculators.

• 48:30Logan Bartlett?

  All those, all those really old trends. Where do you think, I mean, where does your optimism sit on the AI stuff that we're seeing today kind of pop out?

• 48:39Speaker 01

  Really, really high, but I think it's going to be, it's going to be like mobile, right? Which is, everything is a mobile deal. When mobile first started, it was like, oh my God, mobile is going to be this. But mobile came into everything and then data happened. Oh my God, data, you know, data, data startups, but all decisions are now driven by data. And I think generative AI is going to be the same thing, which is every company will have some component of generative AI. So first of all, it's going to become, you know, it's going to be part of every deal that everyone does and penetrate every industry.

• 49:17Speaker 01

  But is it going to be completely a new shift in everything that we imagined to have been true last year is completely changed now? Absolutely yes. I think it's mind blowing. I mean, if you, if you saw the 30 minute GPT for demo yesterday, it's, it's just mind blowing. Things are going to be so different. I can't, we can't even imagine it.

• 49:38Speaker 02

  So I think by mobile, what you're saying is like when, when 2007, 2008 happened, I became a mobile VC and what that meant was like new companies.

• 49:45Speaker 01

  He left his office.

• 49:47Speaker 02

  You're trying, exactly. New companies that, that were being built from the ground up, trying to take advantage of mobile data, right? And then the open platforms like, like the iPhone and.

• 49:59Speaker 02

  And, you know, we, a whole bunch of companies were invested at that point in time that were kind of mobile centric. And then before you know it, though, every existing company started introducing mobile as a part of it and became an ingredient. But the reality is, you know, and I've, I've heard that analogy played out. I've used it a lot of times. Now, if we look back, mobile really did create a whole bunch of native, new applications that were specific, you know, and it happened specifically because of mobile. And I believe the same thing is going to happen with AI.

• 50:27Logan Bartlett?

  What do you put on that, like Instagram?

• 50:29Speaker 02

  Instagram.

• 50:30Logan Bartlett?

  WhatsApp and Uber and Airbnb and?

• 50:32Speaker 02

  Exactly. And we can go down the list. I mean, you know, but all those things were created because of mobile. They weren't an outgrowth. They weren't incumbent companies adding mobile, right? They, they happened because somebody looked at it and said, mobile is different enough that I can create an experience that isn't just an extension of something that's already happening.

• 50:50Logan Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 50:50Speaker 02

  Right? And I believe the same thing is going to happen with AI. And I, I believe AI is as big as the mobile wave, for sure, in terms of what it's going to mean for value creation for founders in companies here over the next, hopefully, it's, you know, 10, 15 years. In the same way that mobile's kind of powered a lot of, a lot of value creation. And I think that, you know, we're seeing all our companies add calls to OpenAI or ChatGPT or to GPT-3 or 4 or whatever. We're going to see all those things are going to be integrated into products to actually allow them to take advantage of this. But I also believe that there's going to be, at some points, people are going to sit down and say, the way that we think about enterprise application software, maybe we need to rethink it from the ground up and start all over again, recognizing that AI is going to allow us to think very differently

• 51:35Speaker 02

  about what these experiences can be like for end users. And I'm, I'm excited about it because, because I think that the, if you think about, cloud really started about 2007, 2008, when it really accelerated. AWS was a real driver of that. But then, you know, that's when Salesforce and others started to demonstrate, hey, this, people are going to consume, enterprises will consume cloud-based applications. Mobile happened about the same time. For 15 years, we've been investing off of those waves. And even the data stuff we're doing is really an outgrowth of the move to the cloud. Right. And it was getting harder and harder for us to find things that we felt like had a lot of running room that could be had unbounded upside because those themes had were they were starting to get a little bit long in the tooth.

• 52:17Speaker 02

  And I think AI has the ability to be this thing that is the wind in our sails here for for a long period of time.

• 52:23Logan Bartlett?

  Yeah, that's the way I've sort of thought is that the internet changed every business like totally. It changed the venture capital business. Quite literally, we had to have a website, right? And it changed restaurants around the corner. And this feels closer to mobile in the sense that maybe it's and the equity value created there was tons of net new stuff. Mobile didn't change every single business, right? We didn't need a mobile app in the same way. It changes how we operate internally, but not how we necessarily go to market as Red Point. But it did create a lot of independent equity value. It also created a bunch to the, you know, the big incumbents as well. But it's a it's interesting to hear how many people are that were cynical of crypto or now optimistic of of AI.

• 53:08Speaker 02

  I just you can see real world applications right in front of you and the ability to kind of monetize. And I do think mobiles, I think what's happened is the iPhone has just plopped in everybody's lap over the last couple of months, right? It's just it's literally that big of an event. If you think back when the iPhone was introduced, that's just kind of falling in everyone's lap here. And now, you know, we've got this one cabinet canvas to think about what we do with it, and it's going to be really exciting.

• 53:32Speaker 01

  Not not just that, if you with with chat GPT, you can go to any other person and explain what it is. And show them a demo and they get it and they can go explain to someone else. You could never do that with crypto.

• 53:47Speaker 02

  And how do you think he's writing his deal memos now?

• 53:50Logan Bartlett?

  Yeah, exactly. Now they've gotten a lot better.

• 53:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, that would be honestly like they're now a page and a half long.

• 53:55Logan Bartlett?

  That's amazing. Yeah.

• 53:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. And he's got like really real, real graphics and drawings in there now. It's really amazing.

• 54:03Logan Bartlett?

  What about the

• 54:03Speaker 01

  Mid journey, baby.

• 54:04Logan Bartlett?

  What what about the the fun dynamics like in the industry as well? So now we have these big trends and we've seen funds grow. I mean, You got you joined Red Point in 2000.

• 54:15Speaker 02

  2000.

• 54:15Logan Bartlett?

  2000. So you saw the tail end of funds growing. Was that the peak of the?

• 54:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, I joined the venture capital industry the day the Nasdaq beat.

• 54:25Logan Bartlett?

  Okay, so and it took another 15 years.

• 54:26Speaker 01

  Ever since Scotty joined.

• 54:28Logan Bartlett?

  I know. Well, I came back. There were five years, whatever, 2016 to 2021 that I kept going up. And then I started going back down again. But we we've had a proliferation of funds. We've had a proliferation of Taurus kind of entering the industry. We've had the solo VCs and all of that stuff. Now it feels like we're going back the other way a little bit. But we've we've generally tried to stay smaller than certainly our peers that have been around for as long a time and with some of the same companies that we're in as well. How do you guys think about fund composition and the state of the industry now?

• 55:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think a lot of it honestly is institutional knowledge and history that I frankly benefited from. I think during the dot com days, we we Red Point, you know, raised all these big funds and realized that, hey, that's that's not how we make a great multiple on funds. And what we really want to focus on is a multiple on the fund. And if you want to make a 10x fund or a 15x fund, you know, you got to have a small sized fund, not a big sized fund. And I think that institutional knowledge has been hammered into our heads from the dot com days that, you know, which then I inherited. And and so we always think about it from, hey, fund on fund multiples.

• 55:47Speaker 01

  The math just doesn't work when you have that big a fund to create a 10x fund or, you know, outlier funds.

• 55:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, and I'll put a fine point. I mean, the last three to four years, we've seen a lot of really gross behavior. You know, just these massive funds being raised and people investing in them over the course of a year, clearly chasing FOMO, enabling, you know, a lot of bad behavior. Frankly, you know, it's hard for me to sit here and say, hey, giving founders a lot of money at high valuations is a bad thing. But the bottom line is I think we're seeing that it wasn't a great thing for these companies right now. A lot of companies are having Go back and actually think about how we really build the business and make sure we're building a good business. One that'll has the ability to be efficient where we can't just use money to kind of plaster over all the things that everybody has to do when you go through building companies. So, um, you know, I worry about the industry, you know?

• 56:39Speaker 02

  I worry about all that money sitting out there. There's a lot of it still is. We still have a lot of folks out there that I don't think, think about the long game as investors who are, I think, focused very much on trying to make a quick buck and not really about company building, but really about how do I, how do I put as much money to work in a shorter period of time to generate as big a return as I can and, and, um, you know, I certainly hope that what happens over the next few years is a lot of that goes away. I certainly don't want to get to the point where companies can't raise the money they need to be successful, but I, I'd like us to get to the point where, you know, the dynamics in this industry are one that are really focused on, let's build really great companies and everything else will work out from there.

• 57:21Logan Bartlett?

  We gave money back, right? In Red Point two, uh, Excel did, Battery did. There was a handful of firms that did as well. Do you think that's something we're going to see or people?

• 57:32Speaker 02

  We already did see it, right?

• 57:33Logan Bartlett?

  I guess Founder Fund did the cut over. Yeah.

• 57:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:36Logan Bartlett?

  They shortened their early stage. Uh, the exact way they did it, I think, was they had raised like 1.9 or something and then they, they said, we're going to cut it actually at 900 and then roll over that next billion to the next fund in some way. So it was a little different, but similar idea.

• 57:53Speaker 02

  It might happen. It might happen. I don't think it'll happen quickly. I think part of the problems is these firms hire a lot of people, have an expense structure that makes it difficult to do that, um, right out of the gate. And, um, you know, I've heard stories on the opposite side, and I think we've talked about this with where, where people post the market correction, uh, firms going out, raising really, really big funds, very, very large funds, not having, not getting all the way to this massive target they had. Instead of saying, we've got a really big fund now that looks great and we're going to be able to deliver a really good return. We're going to keep fighting until we get that extra billion dollars into our fund because we, every fund needs to be bigger than last because that's the way that we operate. And I think that is such a distorted way of looking at the world.

• 58:36Speaker 02

  I think it's such a cynical way of thinking about our industry and about what we're trying to do here. And, um, I think it's like, I think it's greed, honestly, greed and ego personally.

• 58:45Logan Bartlett?

  So that's the the element of the industry as it stands with these big funds and the deals and all that. I do think the pendulum swung back from we've seen founders had all the power in all these rounds, right, where they were getting multiple term sheets. And now it's a little bit more of a healthy balance where for the most part, people aren't giving large secondaries to founders to try to get into deals and all that. We did, I guess we're recording this a week after all the SVB stuff played out, right? What about the implications for either with regard to how different people acted and sort of a zero sum way, maybe on Thursday of pulling money out, or how different people acted very publicly

• 59:27Logan Bartlett?

  in what might have been somewhat inciting of other other bank runs that we potentially saw on social media over the weekend? I know you guys don't spend as much time on social media as I do, but I will say the the sentiment on venture capital, it feels like kind of took a a lot of political goodwill was spent over the course of the weekend, right? And I think there's been a lot of good work that the industry's done that we haven't done maybe as good of a job as we should have of getting the message out of things like Moderna and how big of an impactful institution that was over the course of the last couple of years. Or some of these other, I mean, Zoom, quite literally, like venture backed startup, changed the way we process the

• 1:00:09Speaker 01

  And saved us during the pandemic.

• 1:00:11Logan Bartlett?

  Saved us during the pandemic. And so I think there's some branding issues that exist with venture capital. And I I do feel that we're moving in a direction, if we don't figure out how to push back, that there's this social, like pariah, someone someone wrote an article calling VCs parasites that was run the other day and recommending euthanasia, which I I'm told was a Keynes economist reference and not a actually recommending

• 1:00:39Speaker 02

  I think he was really talking mostly about VCs that do a lot of tweeting and

• 1:00:43Logan Bartlett?

  That's right. I think specifically me especially. But what do you think about that? I mean, we're in more of the spotlight than we've ever been. And we've obviously embraced it in different ways, you guys less so than I.

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  We have done a really, really poor job so far of bringing out all the good things that tech and venture capital and innovation and entrepreneurship, jobs, I mean, like, if you're an Uber driver or DoorDash driver or Instacart delivery, you know, you're So many hourly jobs, all of them are powered by by the innovation that happens in the valley. And we realized we have no friends on the left, no friends on the right. You know, we are a prior and we got to do a better job of

• 1:01:32Speaker 01

  of blowing our own trumpets a little bit and talking about the values that we we bring and the value that we bring better and and honestly have better connections in DC and things like that, which we didn't have. And a band of VCs came together, as you know, and we started tweeting together and and a lot of great firms.

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  GPs from a lot of great firms. And one of the things that we're thinking about is, hey, how do we how do we affect this? This thing that you're talking about and how how could we be better understood, honestly?

• 1:02:08Logan Bartlett?

  Maybe it's not just venture too, right? I mean, to some extent, like Elon Musk or whatever, some of the big personalities in tech can come across as assholes.

• 1:02:16Speaker 02

  Well, yeah. I think that's one of the things I was just going to say is I I I hope part of what happens here is that we we as an industry take a step back and make sure that we're behaving in a way that actually warrants us being getting the benefit of the doubt. And, you know, I'm not sure that we always do. So I think there's hopefully a little bit of introspection that happens post this too, to help us understand how to how to make sure that we we can rebuild the political capital that I think that this industry deserves. I don't it's not just venture capital. I mean, I think when we talk about VCI, I mean, really what we're here to do is to help these founders and these entrepreneurs succeed, right? And if we're not here, that it's very difficult. If venture capital doesn't exist, it's very difficult for that innovation to happen. But that's ultimately what we're in the job of doing.

• 1:03:01Speaker 02

  And I think, you know, as long as we don't lose sight of the fact that really our job is to make them successful, then I think we're going to be in good shape.

• 1:03:09Speaker 02

  I have a question for you.

• 1:03:10Logan Bartlett?

  Yeah, give it to me.

• 1:03:11Speaker 02

  All right, so you're of a different generation than the two of us. I'm curious how you think the differences between the way that you see the venture ecosystem, you see the future of venture capital, and maybe the way that Satish and I see it from our standpoint. Do you think that there's a... Do you think it's different? Do you see it differently?

• 1:03:30Logan Bartlett?

  I think that a lot of the trends that we saw over the course of 2020 and 2021, there was... I mean, we saw when we talked to our LPs or talked to people in the ecosystem, there was clearly this mindset that we were shifting to a haves and have-nots. And you needed to get big and you needed to have a single platform and a whole bunch of services. And I think it was kind of Andreessen Horowitz kind of led this one end of the spectrum, right? Or you needed to be really small and really specialized on the other end of the spectrum. And when you haven't been in the industry as long as you all had been, and you just hear that from everyone, it makes sense, right? Like, that's the way the banks played out. That's the way, you know, Hollywood agencies played out.

• 1:04:15Logan Bartlett?

  And it makes sense that that is a way that things kind of polarize in some ways. And so I think I always had in the back of my head, well, maybe that's right. Like, maybe that we should move in one of those two directions, either get bigger or get smaller.

• 1:04:33Logan Bartlett?

  And left to my own devices, I wonder if I would have been as disciplined in our approach or what made us special? And would I have chased that shiny object a little bit more? I think now it's become obvious that that isn't the case or isn't the case in the near term. And so I appreciate you guys keeping me and us in line and like consistent with our knitting around time diversification and moderate fund sizes in the grand scheme of things compared to other people. So I think all of that is something that I... I don't know if I ever went full on in that direction, that I actually truly believed it, but it was always rattling around in my head. And I think both of you kind of kept me consistent

• 1:05:15Logan Bartlett?

  or kept me from jumping further in that direction, in that line of thinking.

• 1:05:21Speaker 02

  Otherwise...

• 1:05:23Logan Bartlett?

  I think there is this element of craftsmanship to the industry that still exists with founders and the ability to work with them and partner with them and that enjoyment of it. And I think we've, we've definitely seen more and more finance people just purely get into the industry. And having grown up in finance, like I certainly recognize that. There is still this artisanal quality of helping founders. And I think that's a real tension that sort of exists within my generation a little bit is how much are we partners to founders and helping them shape their business versus pure capitalists? And we're just an earlier stage hedge fund in some ways.

• 1:06:03Logan Bartlett?

  And so I think that's a tension that our industry wrestles with in some ways. And I think we're going to continue to wrestle with the artisanal versus the pure capitalist quality of all of it. And one of the ways I've heard it, I think Ben Thompson talked about venture capital being an iterative game in a lot of ways, right? In that you're not just solving for the, the near term solution to any problem. You're sort of playing an iterative game that adds up over time. And so it doesn't make sense to make a zero sum decision along the way. I think as more and more finance people have entered the industry, we are seeing more and more zero sum and less iterative game mindset around this. And so I don't know what the big implications for that are, but it could be, I mean, you're

• 1:06:48Logan Bartlett?

  seeing elements of the fee chasing and the all like the industry looks different than it did 10 years ago. And I think it's going to look different in the future, maybe not for better.

• 1:06:57Speaker 02

  Maybe that's some of the things I've alluded to in our conversation today, like that feel like the old guy saying kid, get off my lawn here. But I do feel like we've moved away, we've lost sight of what we really all are about as an industry, really about helping entrepreneurs do amazing things, which is build companies. It's the hardest job in the world and, and you know, figuring out how to, how to help them and being focused as a group on as that is your primary goal. And it does feel like there's so many people in the industry which have lost sight of that. They really are just about how do I get all this money to work and generate as, as big a return as I can. And I, I certainly hope a part of the, the outgrowth of what's happened over the last couple of years has moved to in a direction where, where people get back to, you know,

• 1:07:40Speaker 02

  the core fundamentals of like just being focused on helping build great companies.

• 1:07:43Logan Bartlett?

  Tell me if I'm wrong, but a lot of the stuff played out in 2000 to 2001 probably similarly and then it it retrenched and went back to.

• 1:07:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, there were a lot of like, that that happened in such a condensed period of time. This happened over over, you know, there's there was like a 15 year bull run, right? That just kept adding on and adding on. That happened in a relative, you know, from 97 to 2000, 2001. Right? And there were a lot of tourists who came in, but didn't have a chance to really kind of infect the industry in the same way. And they then they and they definitely left. And, you know, we were back to kind of square one, right? And kind of building up from there. This time, since it's happened over a longer period of time, it's it has changed the industry in a in a more fundamental way. And, you know, I don't think we'll ever get back to where we were. And we probably shouldn't because, you know, we could talk about what's changed in the venture industry industry over that time.

• 1:08:33Speaker 02

  But one of the things that's happened is obviously this is a much bigger industry than it was in the time that, you know, in 2000, when the internet bubble happened, that felt like it felt like we were the center of the universe. But, you know, you could see those stats, like how many of the top 10 most valued companies or tech companies back there was maybe one or two. Now it's probably eight or nine, right? And the the industry's grown up. It's definitely matured. It's massive. And as a result, you know, obviously, venture capital is going to change. It's going to evolve with it. But, you know, maybe it's changing ways in some ways. I think we need to get back to basics.

• 1:09:08Speaker 01

  Logan, I have a question for you.

• 1:09:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, give it to me.

• 1:09:09Speaker 01

  Who who's your favorite partner at Red Point?

• 1:09:12Speaker 02

  Besides you guys or including you guys?

• 1:09:13Speaker 01

  Just pick one.

• 1:09:14Speaker 02

  Pick one?

• 1:09:15Speaker 01

  Including us, of course.

• 1:09:18Logan Bartlett?

  It's so hard. How do you pick between your mother and your father?

• 1:09:21Speaker 02

  How do you? How do you? Yeah. How do you define favorite?

• 1:09:23Logan Bartlett?

  I'll let you guys decide which one to use my mother, which one's my father.

• 1:09:28Speaker 01

  You're an entrepreneur. You had to pick someone to be on your board. Who are you picking? Come on, come on, man.

• 1:09:32Logan Bartlett?

  Gosh, these are the these are the hard questions that I think you don't have to answer.

• 1:09:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, he could. He doesn't want to answer here because it would be Anne or Eric or somebody like that.

• 1:09:40Logan Bartlett?

  Exactly, exactly.

• 1:09:42Speaker 01

  Okay, who has the best hair?

• 1:09:43Logan Bartlett?

  Well, I

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  That's me.

• 1:09:45Logan Bartlett?

  I think that's you. Yeah, I would give that to you for sure.

• 1:09:47Speaker 02

  What? What am I missing?

• 1:09:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, dude.

• 1:09:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, your eyebrows are amazing.

• 1:09:51Logan Bartlett?

  Glistening.

• 1:09:57Logan Bartlett?

  So that'll do it for the 60th episode of the Logan Bartlett Show. Thank you to Satish and Scott for finally coming on. Thank you to Rashad and Justin for their efforts with this episode. And thank you, everyone, for listening in. Fun episode to finally do something a little bit different with a look inside our partnership. We look forward to seeing everyone back here next week on the 61st episode of the Logan Bartlett Show. Have a good weekend, everyone.