Converting a Stoicism Skeptic with Novelist Amy Shearn

Ryan talks with author Amy Shearn about her own journey with Stoicism, how she and Ryan both wrestle with the concepts of Stoicism in a modern context, the role of women in Stoicism, and more. Amy Shearn is an American author and essayist. During the coronavirus pandemic, Shearn became fascinated by Stoicism; she wrote about her experience learning about, grappling with, and ultimately accepting Stoicism in a popular Medium article. Shearn has written in venues like The New York Times, Slate, Jane Magazine and more; she published her most recent novel, Unseen City, in September. This episode is brought to you by Neuro. Neuro makes mints and gums that help you retain focus and clarity wherever you go. Made with a proprietary blend of caffeine, L-theanine, and other focus-building compounds, Neuro’s products are great for anyone who needs help focusing in these trying times. Try out Neuro’s gums and mints at getneuro.com—and use discount code STOIC at checkout to save 15% on your order. This episode is also brought to you by Native Deodorant. Native Deodorant is an amazingly effective green, vegan deodorant that actually works. It comes in several amazing scents like cucumber and mint or lavender and rose, and doesn’t use harmful compounds that plug your pores. Native Deodorant 100% risk free to try because of its 30 day return policy and free shipping and exchanges. Visit nativedeo.com/stoic or use promo code STOIC to get 20% off your first order.***If you enjoyed this week’s podcast, we’d love for you to leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps with our visibility, and the more people listen to the podcast, the more we can invest into it and make it even better. Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: http://DailyStoic.com/signupFollow @DailyStoic:Twitter: https://twitter.com/dailystoicInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/dailystoic/Facebook: http://facebook.com/dailystoicYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/dailystoicFollow Amy Shearn:Twitter: https://twitter.com/amyshearnInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/artofthelonghaul/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/amyshearnwritesYouTube: https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/572102. Amy_ShearnSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. 📢 Share | ⚙️ Manage Subscription

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Ryan Holiday?

  Welcome to The Daily Stoic, where each day we read a short passage designed to help you cultivate the strength, insight, wisdom necessary for living the good life. Each one of these passages is based on the 2,000-year-old philosophy that has guided some of history's greatest men and women. For more, you can visit us at dailystoic.com.

• 0:28Ryan Holiday?

  Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. Probably, I don't know, every few months, I get an email from a reporter who's doing a trend piece about Stoicism, and invariably, I can see the direction of the piece from the questions alone. It's usually, "How silly is it that these white guys in Silicon Valley are studying Stoicism?" Or, "What's with these crazy athletes interested in ancient philosophy?" Or, sometimes the pieces are a little bit more about me, and I can tell they're sort of trying to see if there's something behind the curtain, if this is somehow related to

• 1:10Ryan Holiday?

  my earlier work on media manipulation, or whatever. So I'm somewhat cynical about these pieces as they're happening. I'm always surprised that the author is doing it. It doesn't seem to me that anyone went to journalism school and then attacked people for studying philosophy, but such is the world, as we actually talk about a little bit in Lives of the Stoics. There's always been a sort of cynical, satirical take on the Stoics, dating back as far as Clianthe's and Chrysippus. But I also know from a media standpoint, like, sort of all press is good press. It's not a big deal. I don't really, I don't know who these pieces are talking to, and the impact is probably largely positive. But anyways,

• 1:54Ryan Holiday?

  when I got one a few months ago from Amy Schurn, an editor I know at Medium, where I often publish my writing, I was at least somewhat hopeful it would turn out well, and...

• 2:10Ryan Holiday?

  And you know, she asked a few questions about, you know, how do the Stoics feel about political engagement? What about resignation? Are they resigned at the status quo? They were interesting questions. And actually, I just pulled it up. I was gonna read some. She said, "I'm writing a little something for the site about trying to explore Stoicism. I was wondering if I could ask you a few questions. Namely," she says, "as a modern Stoic, you believe that like ancient Stoicism says, everything is governed by divine logic and our actions are essentially fated, that your actions don't affect outcomes. She says, "I'm also having a hard time with the Stoic idea of controlling your emotions and not worrying about what you can't control. Does Stoicism say, for example, not to protest or get involved with causes or vote, since everything is fated? In other words, how does a modern Stoic interact with the modern world?"

• 2:53Ryan Holiday?

  So anyways, I actually like to do my interviews over email because then there's always a record. But we ended up going back and forth and I didn't think much of it. And then the piece came out and it was awesome. It was really great. The headline is "A Beginner's Guide to Stoic Philosophy." But what I loved about the piece is that unlike the people who are just sort of like the wallflower judging the people who are having fun, Amy actually like explored Stoicism and she got serious about it. And she, she took some like online classes and she read the books and she talked to the experts and she even got one of the Four Virtues coins that she carries with you. And she was going through not just what everyone is going through with the pandemic,

• 3:37Ryan Holiday?

  but she was also going through a separation from her husband. She is in the middle of putting out a new book, which I think should be out by the time you're listening. Her new novel, "Unseen City," is out. But as a writer, she also wrote a book called "How Far Is the Ocean From Here?" and a novel called "The Mermaid of Brooklyn." So as a writer and a journalist, she's also just engaged in a profession that has its ups and downs and difficulties. So I was just so encouraged by the piece. I loved it. I thought it was really open-minded. It sort of lets you see Stoicism from a new set of eyes. I think often looking at things that you're interested in from the eyes of the beginner can teach you something about it. So I wanted to interview Amy and just talk through not just Stoicism, but I think

• 4:19Ryan Holiday?

  She's a great example of how we can explore introducing people to Stoicism, how we can talk about Stoicism and women, because that's obviously that there does tend to be a bias towards the masculine elements of it. And we kick around a whole bunch of other conversations. We had some technical difficulties at the beginning of it. I think my mic was going out, but then it got fixed. So if there's any audio, that's my apologies. But anyways, I'm glad to have Amy on the show. You can check out amyschernwrites.com. You can see her books there. The new and unseen city novel is out now. And check out her work on Medium.

• 4:59Ryan Holiday?

  She's a contributing editor to Forge, which is the publication I tend to publish most of my stuff at. But I think you can see me at justmedium.com/ryanholiday. I don't know. But Medium's great. They've been a great supporter of my work and published some pretty great stuff about Stoicism as well. So I'm excited for you to listen to this interview and I'll talk to you soon. I'm curious. So I loved your article. And I think what I loved about it is that it went in the exact opposite direction that I tend to watch these articles go, which is that someone is interested in Stoicism, or they see that people are interested in Stoicism.

• 5:39Ryan Holiday?

  But then the bloggy sort of internet journalism tendency would not be to come around at the end and go, hey, this is sort of vaguely interesting or valuable. It would be to say like, the most viral of the takes is like, this is dumb. This is a scam. This doesn't work. Look how ridiculous it is. It's not to say like, oh, I actually learned something.

• 6:07Speaker 01

  Oh, well, thank you for saying that. And trust me, that's how I thought it was going to go too, honestly. But I'm very relieved to hear you liked it because you're such an important part of Forge. And I had a moment, you know, when I was sort of pitching this piece, I was like, Am I, is Ryan Hoden gonna be mad at me? But then I thought you were stoic. You probably are super chill about it. But I, I really, I really did have so much skepticism about stoicism when I started. And then I found that, you know, like almost everything in life, I guess, once you dig below the surface and really give it a little time and thought, it's actually super interesting.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  So, fine, I admit it. You're right. Fine.

• 6:54Ryan Holiday?

  Well, why, why do you think you had so much skepticism? I've, I've always been curious. I, I, that, that's, that's not the reaction that I would anticipate. So I'm curious why the, why the skepticism?

• 7:07Speaker 01

  That's a good question. So I think, you know, I came to Forge, which is, you know, a personal development publication where we're sort of, we're always trying to arm our readers with tools to live a better life. And I kind of come from the women's magazine world and women's publications where the way into sort of living your best life and really discovering who you are and being happier feels to me like the opposite of the stoic approach. It's, it's just, uh, it's like about how can you make your life easier? And what can you say no to? How can you have better boundaries? It's just like a different mindset.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  And I think, I, I don't think I really gave stoicism much thought until I got to Forge. And it's, for, for whatever reason, from the beginning of Forge, our most popular pieces are about stoicism and, or maybe I should say our stoicism, stoicism pieces always do really well with medium readers, with on the, on social media, just everywhere. And I was just sort of mystified, like it seemed, still don't get mad at me. It seemed really boring. Like I was just like, what is it? It's, and it also seemed very male. Like there's something very macho about stoicism. You know, all the, the main.

• 8:31Speaker 01

  Teachers in past and present seem to me like, I don't know, a bunch of white guys. And I will fully admit that I came with some bias because my ex-husband was super into stoicism. So I was like, ew, you know what? Ew, all you guys reading the meditations. No, thanks. And I, I will also admit that I was conflating it in my head with kind of lowercase stoicism. Meaning just, um, you know, sort of stiff upper lip. I'm not going to share my emotions kind of lifestyle, which as you know, and as I'm sure your listeners know, of course it's not.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  And so then I thought, well, okay, I can kind of see why our readers like it. I get the, and you're very good at distilling sort of the takeaways of, that are relevant to everybody's life. Like here's what you can control, here's what you can't control.

• 9:32Speaker 01

  You know, how can you use this mindset to deal with this crazy world we're living in? But I sort of had that thought of like, okay, I can see how that's good for other people, but what, what could it possibly say to me?

• 9:44Ryan Holiday?

  There's been so many sort of trend pieces or articles about it that, uh, over the years, and they, they're almost all universally negative. And, and they're, they're universally negative in this sort of weird. Like this weird take that I've never understood that I'd be curious, maybe you could explain to me. It's always like, look how stupid these people are for like trying, or look how weird these people are for like taking something seriously. Or like, or they're trying to go like, but these people work at these large companies. So obviously it's hypocritical. I've never really gotten this weird, like, I've never really gotten the interpretation that like, I don't like Silicon Valley.

• 10:26Ryan Holiday?

  So if people in Silicon Valley are interested in something, it must be bad. Cause to me, it's like, i- isn't that exactly what you would want them to be learned? Like, like what, name something worse than them reading about an ancient philosophy? That has all these sort of like prescriptions and principles you're supposed to be following. I've never got like the, I, I guess I just don't, like, I can't imagine myself writing a takedown of people who do yoga, even if I don't get it. Cause it seems like you're into it. Good for you.

• 11:01Speaker 01

  Right. I mean, it sounds like it's a couple of different things. And I think there is like the counter take is just an easy way to write something, you know, whether it's about stoicism or anything, you just look at something that it's like the, the, you know, 15 year old inside of all of us that wants to be like, oh, everybody likes that thing. Well, here's why it sucks.

• 11:26Speaker 01

  And it's like a little bit of self-protection, almost, I think that sort of attitude.

• 11:33Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 11:34Speaker 01

  In like a weird, I think unhelpful way. But I think, I think you're right that, I mean, that's what, once I sort of dug into it a little bit, what I found so sort of charming about the sort of stoicism community and also really compelling about it is that there is this real sincerity to it. And there is a real desire to figure out what life is about and figure out how we can live better. And maybe something about that makes people uncomfortable because it is so, it's so sincere.

• 12:11Ryan Holiday?

  No, I read a great quote recently that was like cynicism is a form of cowardice.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 12:17Ryan Holiday?

  And that like, that totally struck me as sort of summing up the times that we live in. And I think as you're right, as a writer, it's extra tempting because it's like, to, to endure something, you have to put a little of yourself out there. To say that something sucks, you're not at all on trial.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  That's right. Yeah. And you're not, you don't have to make yourself vulnerable or potentially be wrong by saying, you know, this thing is actually really meaningful. Or the sort of hating on Silicon Valley part of it, I think is, like you, like you said, it's so interesting because it's like, okay, well, if these people have a lot of, if you're upset because the people who sort of have a lot of maybe money and power and influence are trying to engage in philosophy.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  It kind of, there's like an interesting subtext there, which is, I think, a belief that that philosophy, or trying to think about things more deeply, or trying to improve your life, has to be separate from the world that we live in. And if it's not, and it's engaged in the actual world we live in, then there's something insincere about that. You know, like, that's a really weird head game that I think America has. And as you reminded me when I was writing my piece, and I talked to John Robertson about this too, Stoicism

• 13:53Speaker 01

  has always been really engaged in real life. And, you know, it's been emperors and leaders and people who are really involved in, I don't know, everyday real life. And living life, it's sort of a, like, a high level of success. Like, you know, like, it's always been all mixed up together. Like, philosophy doesn't have to just be for people, you know, sitting alone on a mountaintop, kind of thing.

• 14:23Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I want to come back to that, because I did, I did sort of remember that from your questions. I'm curious, as you decide to sort of explore Stoicism, what's, what's going on with you? It sounded like you were going through a rough time.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. So, it was, I mean, I know I'm not alone in saying, it's just been a hell of a year. But

• 14:47Ryan Holiday?

  And it's not even over yet.

• 14:50Speaker 01

  Um, can we just call it, actually, we just had an interesting piece on Forge, that was like, you know what, guess what, guys, at the end of 2020, nothing magical is gonna happen. This is just the world we live in. It's not a cursed year, but.

• 15:05Ryan Holiday?

  Right. No, the years are just made up words we have for units of time. Like, it's not like, it's not like anything changes when, when December rolls into January.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  Oh, don't say that. No, it's true, though.

• 15:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, but for me personally, not to take the pandemic personally, but uh, so I just, I had split from my husband and moved out into my own place in February, February 1st, like, how's that for a timing?

• 15:35Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  Was sort of just getting used to everything, settling in, and then this whole pandemic situation started, um, starting from March 13th, which I will always remember because it was Friday, the 13th, of course.

• 15:50Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 15:51Speaker 01

  Uh, my kids were home from school, you know, it's just sort of like, everything has felt so nuts for so long. And so I was in one of those moments where I was like, okay, I need something. I, I know about meditation. I know about yoga. I've tried all these things. Could it be that all of these forged readers are on to something that Stoicism could actually be useful and interesting? Uh, turns out our readers are super smart, which I knew, but um, you know, I had to kind of dig below that sort of first,

• 16:28Speaker 01

  uh, you know, tweetable version of modern Stoicism to get to the really kind of like weird parts, which were of course what interested me the most.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  Um, but it's also, it's like anything, you have to be in a moment where you're, where you're open to things and you're, you're looking for an answer.

• 16:48Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. One of my favorite expressions is, uh, when the student is ready, the teacher appears, but I think what's weird about Stoicism is like, like, okay, like, let's say, yeah, you were interested in yoga, or you're interested in meditation. It's like really easy to do those things, right? Because it's like, you go to a class or you download an app. I think, and this has been tricky as a writer, but like, what's weird about Stoicism is on the one hand, it's very practical. And on the other hand, it's very like, uh, I don't want to say ephemeral, but it's, it's not like a thing that you do. Like, there's not like, okay, here's your, like, it's like, if you want to get sober and you're interested in trying AA, you go to an AA meeting, right?

• 17:32Ryan Holiday?

  Like, there's not really that for Stoicism. So where, like, where did you start? What did you do?

• 17:38Speaker 01

  I know stoicism is a real pain in the ass, to be honest. Like, as soon as I sort of started writing this piece, I was like, what have I gotten myself into? This is going to actually be hard to commit to. And something that really helped me was, there actually is, I feel like, a slight iteration of that for Stoicism, which is that the Stoic Week curriculum thing. I feel like that was like, for me, it worked as like a dummy's guide to Stoicism. Because I had that same, you know, I sort of dove in and started reading everything. And I took an online class in ancient Stoicism, and I sort of had all these notes.

• 18:22Speaker 01

  And I was still like, how do I do it? What do I do?

• 18:28Speaker 01

  And this Stoic Week, I was doing it asynchronously. I just had like an old PDF of, I don't know, it from the program from a couple of years ago, I think. But it really helped because it made it really clear. You know, you read this meditation in the morning and then you, you know, you have like a thing to do every day, whether it's take a walk or do some sort of reflection. It reminds you to journal, which I found really helpful and to write down. I think what I found most helpful is keeping a log of sort of every moment of discomfort in your day. And then kind of almost rating it, like, how much control did I have? How much control did I think I had? What were my emotions? How did I deal with it?

• 19:14Speaker 01

  That is super helpful, I think, for picking apart, you know, how many of my daily struggles were completely in my head?

• 19:24Speaker 01

  And I feel like that felt really solid and helpful. I interviewed a bunch of philosophers who are the most fun to interview. You know, as I learned, and as you've probably learned, wow, philosophers are super happy to talk about philosophy as much as you want.

• 19:47Speaker 01

  And, yeah. But, but, but their iteration is much more.

• 19:54Speaker 01

  The history and sort of the academics and here's how to think about it.

• 19:57Ryan Holiday?

  What do you feel like surprised you the most?

• 19:59Speaker 01

  What a good question.

• 20:03Speaker 01

  But I was sort of making fun of your medallions that you sell on the

• 20:11Speaker 01

  And I was like, oh, this is hilarious. I'm going to get one. And then I I loved it. I love it so much. I have it with me right now. I have it all the time. And I thought, oh, right, of course. And that surprised me that that I got so into it, but also that something like that, you know, a really solid reminder like that actually helps in this world, and especially in pandemic life, where it feels like everything I do is online through my computer. To have something, a solid reminder of sort of where your head's at, what you're trying to remember, how how you're trying to focus your attentions with every decision you make,

• 20:55Speaker 01

  is actually super helpful. And I'm so delighted by it, which is like.

• 21:01Ryan Holiday?

  I love hearing that so much because.

• 21:08Ryan Holiday?

  No, no, I love hearing that so much because.

• 21:13Ryan Holiday?

  Go ahead.

• 21:14Speaker 01

  No, I was just gonna say, I'm sorry to start off totally making fun of it, but I was like, this is.

• 21:20Ryan Holiday?

  No, I love it. I love hearing that for for a couple of reasons. One, like, obviously, I I came up with the idea of the first coins because I wanted it like I I wanted it. I wasn't like, hey, what would sell really well? I was like, you know, it'd be cool. I want to get this. And then obviously, if I make a bunch of them, it'll pay for me making one myself. But the the inspiration was like, when you look at all these like ancient, the the first coin we made is a Memento Mori one. You look at all these ancient paintings. There's always like skulls in them. And then it was sort of realizing like, oh, that that was, you know, the idea of Memento Mori, like this was a tangible thing. And I said, it's probably inappropriate or like weird to have a skull on my desk. So like, what is a version of that I could have?

• 22:04Ryan Holiday?

  And I did it. And it's you're right, like having something you touch, having some physical reminder is really nice, like in our digital world. The thing and, and you know, and, and not only like the scrolls and paintings, but it's like, why did people have family crests? And why did they have signet rings? Like, they had these things because it's actually, it turns out it's important to remind yourself of what you believe, even though you'd think you'd already know it. But the weird, I'm, I'm curious about that reaction you had because like, that's another thing that I've, I've had trouble understanding. Like people get so mad that things exist, or that they're sold. And I just never understood that. It's like, you don't have to buy it. Like, like not only do you not have to buy it,

• 22:48Ryan Holiday?

  if you don't want it, it doesn't need to exist to you. Like you don't have to put, and it's such a, to me, it's a basic, though a concept, but it's like, I try not to have a lot of opinions about shit that I don't like. You know what I mean?

• 23:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, that's, I mean, that's so much of, I feel like contemporary culture is just having totally uninformed opinions about shit you don't like. Like that's, we love that right now as a culture. It's like our whole thing. I feel like it's maybe connected to the reaction that people have to, sort of like, why would I be interested in a philosophy that like Silicon Valley guys and, you know, football players are into? It's like the same way that like, philosophy or, and I,

• 23:34Speaker 01

  maybe not religion, but philosophy or any, any sort of deep thinking like that should be like totally separate from the commercial world. Which on one hand, I kind of get it. And it kind of makes sense. You know, one of the, something that Stoicism talks about, of course, is not being connected to material goods and not being obsessed with wealth and, and that kind of thing.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  But they do that anything in our lives is totally disconnected from the commercial world. I feel like is, I don't know. It feels like idealistic, but not necessarily real.

• 24:13Speaker 01

  You know, like even, um, even books about Stoicism, you know, like, uh, somebody has to, Write the book and a publishing company has to publish it and and there's commerce and business involved and and that doesn't mean that the philosophy isn't still useful and and deep and interesting, but.

• 24:33Ryan Holiday?

  No, I've always it is a weird thing because people will be like, oh, would Seneca sell this or something? And I always feel like, you know, first off, Seneca owned an enormous estate tended by slaves.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 24:47Ryan Holiday?

  Which was paid for from the proceeds of his collaboration with Nero's regime. So like, I don't really take financial advice from from Seneca. Like, it seems like a weird, like, of all the things to take from the Romans, like, their understanding of money and like, economic systems is probably the the main thing we can ignore that, you know, ignore from them. Like.

• 25:12Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 25:14Ryan Holiday?

  It's like, oh, yeah, Marcus Aurelius wouldn't do this because Marcus Aurelius was a dictator for life and didn't have to, like, he and and actually, it's like, you know, you know what the currency in Rome was? It was coins with Marcus's face on it. So I'm not sure that he would have such an objection to this either.

• 25:36Speaker 01

  Wait, but sorry, I'm thinking a medallion with Ryan Holiday's face on it. Lean into it, go all the way.

• 25:48Ryan Holiday?

  It's.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  I feel like you need to just embrace it.

• 25:51Ryan Holiday?

  It's it's a very weird, it's a very weird thing. People, it's like, what you find, and I'm sure you find this with your writing, too. It's like, when people don't like something, they will make up ridiculous reasons why they don't have to wrestle with the ideas in it. And.

• 26:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:12Ryan Holiday?

  It's a you you just you end up having to get to a place where you don't think about it, or it just it it it just like makes you bitter and resentful.

• 26:22Speaker 01

  Totally, which is super not stoic.

• 26:25Ryan Holiday?

  No.

• 26:27Ryan Holiday?

  So when you were thinking about that, I am always curious about women and stoicism, obviously, because my experience as a man sort of is whatever limitations inherent in that. But like, there's in this one hand, this idea that like, oh, all Stokes are men. And I know that's not true, because I hear from so many female readers, and I can look at the data, like, you know, Facebook or Instagram followers, for instance, and I see that it's pretty 50 50. But I do get I do get the sense that it's sort of immediately not as appealing to women, or it doesn't feel like it's presented as fully welcoming. What is that? Is it like the skulls and the military stuff? Or is it? What is it?

• 27:14Speaker 01

  Personally, I love the skull stuff of it. I mean, it's a really good question, and I'm gonna put that question back to you in a minute. But that's part of what that was part of my initial skepticism about it was like, this really feels like it's for dudes. And part of I mean, also for me, part of that was my own not fully understanding it. It seemed like kind of a bummer philosophy that was about like, just don't detach from your feelings. Don't be led by your feelings. Be led by some other truths. And and to me, that just felt like, I like my feelings. I want to be in touch with my feelings. I

• 27:59Speaker 01

  don't want to shut them down, which I realized, you know, digging a little more into it, it's not about shutting down your feelings. And I loved learning that, you know, really stoicism and ancient stoicism was about, you know, reaching this sort of the end goal is to reach this state of. Like pure happiness, that's like joy or almost like grace, that's not connected to the sort of weather of what's going on in your life, but is sort of connected to like the climate of your life and, and is, and is something that you can keep no matter what else is going on in your life. So, once I, once I got to that, that really, Stoicism is, is trying to give you tools to reach kind of a state of, of grace, then, then

• 28:44Speaker 01

  it felt like something that, that felt relevant. But I really did have a sort of preconception that it was about kind of not having feelings, which personally didn't appeal to me. But I do, I wonder, you know, you were saying you've thought about it. What, do you feel like you have a theory or you know why? Because it does feel very male. And I feel like most of the Stoic writers, you know, that write certainly for a forge or, or for the internet at large, it just feels very male. Why?

• 29:14Ryan Holiday?

  It does.

• 29:15Speaker 01

  You tell me.

• 29:16Ryan Holiday?

  It, it, that was something I struggled with on the new book, the, the Lives of the Stoics book, because I didn't want it to be all men. But so what's interesting is when you dig in, like there, there is sort of one female Stoic hero, which is Portia, Cato's daughter. But then, you know, like Musonius Rufus is one of the early Roman Stoics is, says like very clearly, like, there's no gender associated with virtue, like that genitals don't have anything to do with, you know, courage and justice and moderation and wisdom. And so it was interesting to see the Stoics sort of be at the forefront of that, but then even historically be sort of predominantly male. And I wonder if it's

• 29:58Ryan Holiday?

  just a result of like, what, like what we considered virtue in men is, tends to be a much more public facing stuff. So virtue, like virtue in a man is, you know, for many thousands of years has been like, you know, success in business or on the battlefield or becoming this or that. And a lot of the, the female Stoicism, Stoic traits, that virtue in a woman tend to be more sort of inward facing things. So they're by nature not as public, which I came around and realizing like is actually the more if moderation and restraint is a virtue,

• 30:39Ryan Holiday?

  then the sort of quiet Stoicism of, you know, millions of women who were not given their full credit or do is actually sort of the ultimate Stoic trait. Like I have this quote in the new book from from Robert Caro where he's talking about he's like, "The myth of the Old West is uh is like about it's all about the gunfighters." But he's like, "You never hear a story of a of a woman with a perineal tear like walking to go get a bucket of water from the well." And like, "What is actually much harder?"

• 31:11Speaker 01

  That's right. You know, you're making me think like maybe uh all this time Stoicism has been about trying to get men to be um more like women have always had to be.

• 31:24Ryan Holiday?

  Totally.

• 31:25Speaker 01

  Sort of right. Like you said, I mean, living a life of quiet virtue has been what women were supposed to do forever. And then it's like at a certain point, men were like, "Hmm, should we try it? I don't know."

• 31:37Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I think like I think my wife is much, much more naturally Stoic than I. And then I think that is what's kind of funny about this like weird, resurgent, sort of like, right-wing masculine culture that we're seeing is like how ironically unmanly it is. Like, there's a great Atlantic piece that was like, and people are gonna get mad that I'm saying this, so uh which itself is proving the point, but they were like, it's like, I think the title was like, "Trump, the least manly president." And it's like, here you have a guy that complains all the time, blames other people, you know, never takes responsibility, you know, like is preposterously vain, makes it all about him. Like, if you sort of list like what people are like getting mad about as far as

• 32:21Ryan Holiday?

  like political correctness, those are actually like masculine like what it like, if you look back, like even to the, let's say, the 19th century, like that idea of like, "Don't swear in front of a woman," or "Don't spit in church," or, you know, all these things are like now the things that people are like, "You're not gonna ma- you muzzle me with your political correctness." Like, the whole point of masculine culture and like this sort of Stoic thing is like having control of yourself and doing not doing things even though you can do them.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, you know, I feel like often, and I think this is true of individuals and kind of society, if I may, but like the things that we're correcting for, or what we're looking for, or what we're suggesting is cures, often say so much more about what needs to be cured than anything else, you know, so it's like, I always think of Ellen DeGeneres. Okay, so stay with me here for a second. So, you know, she had this whole thing this summer where people were like, you know what, she's not that nice. But her whole thing is that people should be nice. So what gives? And I feel like there's probably a lot of people like

• 33:39Speaker 01

  that, like they know the thing they need to work on. And so they're over, I mean, this is giving Ellen DeGeneres a lot of credit. I don't know her personally, but they're over correcting, you know, they're looking for answers, they're looking for ways to get to to sort of fix their deficits, or make themselves more like they want to be. So it's not like they're saying, you know, it's not like a, I would guess, a stoic is saying, hey, look, I'm the best at this. I'm totally the most, like, check me out. It's like, that's the person who's like, I have the most to work on. This is what I'm trying to work towards. I think that, I don't know, it's a theory.

• 34:21Ryan Holiday?

  Hey, the Ellen thing is such a good example to me of where we've like, lost our minds as a culture. And it's like, like, sure, meanness and people who are not very nice are a problem right now. Ellen is probably like, five millionth in line of like, shitty people that we need to like, you know, like, reform. But because she has a reputation of being nice, you can shame and attack that. You know what I'm saying? It's like, like, there's this weird thing where I sort of, I think it's like, because people feel impotent about addressing some of the really alarming big things in the world, they want to like,

• 35:03Ryan Holiday?

  Like, I think even there's an element of this in the Me Too movement where it's like, there are these profoundly bad people who have been unaccountable and, you know, allowed to do whatever they want for a really long time. And then there's also like the somewhat socially awkward person. And so it's like, who do you have, who do you have the most power over to like enforce that agenda? It's unfortunately, it's not the Harvey Weinsteins of the world. It's that guy who works three desks down from you that somewhat clumsily, or even just like in bad taste, said something that they shouldn't have said. And so we end up sort of, the energy goes towards where it has the most immediate impact

• 35:45Ryan Holiday?

  instead of going like, how do we take down this predator?

• 35:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, we don't have a lot of appetite for subtlety, I think nowadays in this culture. So it's like, you know, everything bad is bad and everything good is good.

• 36:02Ryan Holiday?

  It's like, you're not really mad about Ellen, like, you know what I mean? Like Ellen did nothing to you personally. You're just mad about hypocrisy in general. And she is a obvious, you know, recent example of potential hypocrisy. And so that's where everyone focuses.

• 36:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's funny. That's a topic we've been talking about, that editorial stuff at Forge, the idea of hypocrisy and how frustrating it is for everybody to live in this era that seems kind of defined by hypocrisy and, and what is there to do about it? And I think you're right that it's, it's almost like you kind of mentally want to go after somebody who you're like, well, I think they might actually listen. They might actually want to be better. You know, and you look at the people in, in charge and think, I'm not sure that they think they have a problem and want to be better. I don't think they're receptive to this right now, but who is?

• 37:05Ryan Holiday?

  I think that's really why we're freaking out. No, that's why we're freaking out. It's because usually the charge of hypocrisy has weight and people don't want to be called a hypocrite.

• 37:18Ryan Holiday?

  And what do you do? What do you do when someone's like, like, what do you do with a Lindsey Graham? Who's like, here's what I say in 2016. Here's what I say in 2020. And fuck you for, you know, uh, trying to, to, to even think that that's a gotcha. You know, like that's our side is not designed to handle that level of shamelessness. And I don't think it ever has been. I mean, this, like, when you look at someone like Cato, who's this sort of very righteous, like, uh, disciplined, sort of black and white guy. He comes across a Julius Caesar who's just like, yeah, I'll do whatever I want. It's like, it's like it, the computer can't make, it can't make sense of it.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  Right. I mean, that's something that I thought was so interesting, learning about how, um, like Marcus Aurelius was a major Stoic thinker and an emperor who, as you said, you know, had some questionable things that he did. Um, but just the idea that that was the culture that, uh, like I hadn't been aware of this, that he, that it used to, it had been that emperors sort of had like a house philosopher. And then Marcus Aurelius was sort of like, you know what? I think I can do both. Um, just the idea, I mean, on one hand, you can say, well, he wasn't really very pure. None of these emperors were really leading the most virtuous lives. But also like shout out for trying and for trying for wanting to have a philosopher on your staff.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  Like, can you imagine politicians today just being like, hold on, I gotta check with my philosopher really fast to make sure if that is the virtuous decision. Um, you know?

• 38:58Ryan Holiday?

  I mean, yeah, now they won't even like consult, uh, like ethics officers or, or, or the law. Uh, they're like, yeah, screw the Hatch Act. Like that doesn't apply anymore or whatever.

• 39:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 39:10Ryan Holiday?

  What's interesting about? Yeah, what's interesting about Marcus and Hadrian, Emperor One, more Emperor before him, is like Hadrian attends Epictetus's lectures and there's stories of Marcus Aurelius attending the lectures of philosopher named Sextus. Just the idea even of like, I mean, everyone was amazed that Obama read books. That was like so impressive. And you're like, isn't this like, our standards are so low as far as what we expect from leaders. Like, what we want them to be is telegenic and like, good fundraisers. And then we wonder why they're not great decision makers. It's like they don't have the inputs.

• 39:52Speaker 01

  Right. Like, don't you want them to be so much smarter than us? Like, I want them to be so much smarter than me. I want them to have read everything and think about philosophy all the time and say things that I can't even understand because they're so smart. And that's so not American culture right now. It's like the, we'd rather, you know, the whole, you want the guy you can have a beer with, sort of, without me. I'm like, I want a leader I could never have a beer with because he'd be so over my head.

• 40:24Ryan Holiday?

  Well, that's something I like, like AOC. So it's clear that this isn't just like a one-sided political conversation. It's like, I'm sure she's smart and says some interesting things, but like, do you want, do you want a person running the world who has had like, literally zero jobs? Like, this is really, like, even the idea of experience and competence being something that, like, the Stoics believed that wisdom was that critical thing and that it takes a really long time to get it. Like, you know, Marcus Aurelius was an apprentice under Antoninus for like, 20 years. You know, the idea that we now, we now hold it against

• 41:08Ryan Holiday?

  Biden, that he's been a politician for a long time. If you're like, that's what you want.

• 41:14Speaker 01

  That's really interesting that you say that because I was listening to your podcast and at this point, the most recent episode, you were talking to like your...

• 41:29Speaker 01

  Co-writer, editor?

• 41:30Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, yeah, my editor.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  What do you got about feeling a little bit, I hope it's okay if I bring this up, like feeling a little bit like early in your writing career, like you felt that from other people that they were like, who is this guy? He's so young. What does he have to say? How can he share any wisdom?

• 41:50Speaker 01

  And I think I'm like, like you said, you've had this experience with readers before that they're surprised to find out how young you are. And I hope that's an experience, to be honest. And, and so we're like, what do you, what's your relationship with that? Sort of having this, like you're this like repository of ancient wisdom. And I know about these.

• 42:13Speaker 01

  Like you write about wisdom a lot. Do you, is that something that you think about as being like a, a young fellow?

• 42:22Ryan Holiday?

  I think I don't see myself as a repository of wisdom. I see, I do, that would to me be both a, an arrogant and a, and a uneducated thing to say. But I think honestly, I can say what I do have is a lot of information and the ability to distill and communicate that information. So like, I feel like each one of my books becomes a bit more original and there might be a handful of like sort of truly unique ideas that I own inside of them. But I primarily see my, just as you do, I'm sure as a journalist where you're like, no, I go and I explore things and I communicate what I was shown

• 43:02Ryan Holiday?

  about these things. I don't write from a perspective of like, here's truth that I invented. What I'm saying is like, here's truth I'm exploring and here's the structure that I'm organizing it in. So for me, I feel like a lot of times I am getting the The reflection of, or I'm basking in the reflection of a lot of really smart ideas that because the person is hearing them for the first time from me thinks that I, you know, sort of uniquely discovered. But in fact, like when you really go do the reading, these are very common things. So I think weirdly, the more research I do,

• 43:46Ryan Holiday?

  the, the more competent I become in what I talk about because it's like, oh, this is a very well established idea, just in the way that like, somebody who writes about habits is like, here's what the research shows about habits. You don't actually care that much, you know, what they ate for lunch, or, you know, what their habits are specifically, because you understand there can be, obviously, you don't want to learn from a total hypocrite, but you understand that you can be informed by someone who is on the same journey as you.

• 44:16Speaker 01

  Right, yeah. You're right. Someone who's on the journey and that's more interesting, I think, anyway, than having someone to be like, I've got it all figured out and listen up.

• 44:26Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 44:26Speaker 01

  I had a lot of anxiety writing this piece because I was like, I, there's so much to learn and absorb. And I was like, my lifestyle is not stoic enough. Like, I got really into my head after I talked to Donald Robertson, that's his name, right?

• 44:45Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 44:46Speaker 01

  And he was sort of like, here's my lifestyle, you know, I don't have any possessions and I don't eat. And I, you know, he's like, has like a super aesthetic lifestyle. And I was like, man, I, I, I don't know if I can do that. Do you feel like, do you feel like that's an important part of, of stoicism? Is like, sort of tearing down your, your life and, and to me?

• 45:13Ryan Holiday?

  Not as much, not as much. I like, so I know Donald and I've known him a long time. And like, I learned that he made all those decisions from your article. So like, I was not, I was not aware that he had done that.

• 45:26Speaker 01

  I'm so obsessed with coffee with vinegar, like.

• 45:30Ryan Holiday?

  It sounded horrible.

• 45:31Speaker 01

  I know, it's incredible. I love it.

• 45:33Ryan Holiday?

  I like the idea of Marcus really sort of like sleeping on a hard mattress like in a palace or you know, sort of Seneca going like, I have the money, I might as well enjoy it, but it's just not going to mean anything to me. So like, I think that the, in a weird way, I think that's kind of how Stoicism works well in some of the communities we're talking about, which is, it's not that you, even that you said he lives in aesthetic life, like,

• 46:00Ryan Holiday?

  actually that I sort of, a rejection of worldly goods is much more cynical, like of the cynic school than the Stoic school. I think when you really look at the Stoics, they were, you know, they were people with jobs and careers and families and houses and stuff. So I see it as like, if you can do it within moderation, it's great. If you can do it in a way that doesn't, it doesn't sort of fuse itself into your DNA and you're like, this is the new normal. To me, that's the way to do it. And, and again, I think like, what really counts is like, are you a good person? You know, are you sort of like walking through the world with that sort of equanimity and poise and, and understanding? To me, what, how big or small your house is,

• 46:44Ryan Holiday?

  whether you can afford a $10,000 car or a $50,000 car, it's, it's, that says a lot less than any, the status you have says a lot less than pretty much anything else.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I, I think it's like that, that sort of practice of Stoicism where you're just taking a look at each kind of moment of conflict that you have, your moment of stress or internal moment and, and thinking, okay, am I the one who's getting in my own way? Am I, what's really at stake? What can I control? What can I not control? I mean, I just think that's useful to, to anyone, which makes sense. I think that's why it's so sort of beloved by readers right now.

• 47:40Ryan Holiday?

  Well, so my last question for you, and I remember this in the questions you asked me, and it's probably the most common one I get, but I thought it's worth kicking around, which is, I very much got the sense that you had believed that Stoicism was sort of a resignation to the status quo, that it was an indifference to other people's suffering or injustices in the world, that it was somehow incompatible with whatever political or social beliefs that you currently have. Is that right?

• 48:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was something that stressed me out so much about when I was writing this piece, because I kept thinking, I mean, I think for Moon, and probably for a lot of contemporary people, the idea of fate and things being fated is really hard to wrap my mind around. And I really got tangled up in my own head about it. I was sort of like, wait a minute, if Stoicism believes that everything is fated, then what do our decisions matter? How do you believe in a world where things are fated, or things kind of are how they're supposed to be? How is that compatible with needing to make

• 48:56Speaker 01

  good decisions? Or does it mean that, you know, there's no point in getting involved in a cause or voting in the election, because whatever is going to happen is already out there? And that, yeah, you were very helpful in explaining why that's not what Stoicism believes. But it's, I don't know, to me, I don't know why I get tripped up on that, but I, you know, I came away...

• 49:22Ryan Holiday?

  It's a tricky thing.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, so maybe you can talk about like how, you talk about what, like what you told me.

• 49:31Ryan Holiday?

  No, I it's a tricky thing because the Stoics do say all the things that you said. And so you're like, well, does that mean that right that they were just that they just sort of closed their eyes to what was happening? And that it's sort of what you would expect. But what's always struck me, and I think this is what I was saying to you, is like, the actual actions of the Stoics completely belie any, you know, belief that they were powerless over world events. You know what I mean? Like, like whether you're looking at the founding fathers of America, sort of inspired by Stoicism, whether you're looking at Thomas Wentworth Higginson, who leads this regiment

• 50:13Ryan Holiday?

  of black troops in the Civil War, whether you're looking at Stockdale in Vietnam, whether you're looking at, you know, the social activists in Britain who were inspired by the Stoics. It's that it's like, it's almost like, even if they that's what they said, what they actually did showed them to be actually pretty radical politically and actually pretty committed to what we now call social justice. Clearly, you can't write Stoicism off as somehow being just accepting of every bad thing that's happening.

• 50:44Speaker 01

  Right, it's not sort of fatalistic. And this one professor that I talked to really helped me under like wrap my mind around it. He gave this example that he said is like a classic philosophy sort of story, but having never taken any philosophy course or anything, I was like, wow, that this blows my mind. He sort of gave the example of his like sleeping in bed and his wife is having a weird dream and starts punching him. Another version of that is he's sleeping in bed, his wife is really mad at him and starts punching him. And he was like, so I'm getting punched either way.

• 51:27Speaker 01

  But in in one iteration of this reality, she made this choice. To sort of do like a bad thing. I don't know, maybe he deserved it, but impure bad thing and just punch him out of nowhere. And and sort of the other, that other kind of track of reality. That was the same result, but it is a totally different lived experience. If she didn't mean to, and it was just involuntary. And I thought, I mean, that kind of helped me wrap my mind around. It makes sense because Stoicism is about you, all you can control, which is yourself. And trying to act in the most virtuous way possible. So your decisions do matter.

• 52:09Speaker 01

  If nothing else, for the sake of virtue and trying to do things the right way. Will it change the outcome of the world? Who can say, but you still try anyway. Which that made me feel much better about it because I was like, this sounds bad, like nothing matters. But, but like you said, that's totally the opposite of Stoicism. Things do matter.

• 52:30Ryan Holiday?

  No, and that, that's been one of the things I've liked the least about the last few months is that my journey on Stoicism has been getting me towards a place where I care more deeply about these things. I think it's sort of profoundly made me a better person. Like, I think there's a, there's a thing where like young guys can go through where it's like you start reading Richard Dawkins. You start reading this or that, and you're suddenly like, nothing matters. You do whatever you want. It can sort of take you towards a path of nihilism. And I think for me, Stoicism was a very important influence because it made me care more. It made me feel more connected to people. It gave me a stronger sense of duty and obligation. And I guess as I've been writing about these things over the years, I just sort of began to believe that everyone was on the same page.

• 53:15Ryan Holiday?

  And I think several months and last few years have revealed is like, oh, that's not true, even within my own audience. And then weirdly, that's where the next level of Stoicism kicks in, which actually Marcus opens meditations with, it's just basically this idea of like, people are going to be people and you, you can't like, you can't let that break you. You still have to try, you still have to care, you still have to want to do these things. Also have to understand like, that it's going to have a relatively little impact. And, and maybe, maybe what we see in the history of Stoicism is that although they went into it, you know, relatively.

• 53:57Ryan Holiday?

  Uh pessimistic about how much impact they were gonna have. The the crazy things that the Stoics did end up having, you know, big impact in certain situations. And so it's sort of like, it's like you, you, uh, you think you're gonna lose, but you still go down swinging. Maybe that's sort of the Stoic idea.

• 54:16Speaker 01

  Hmm, which feels really useful in this current moment.

• 54:20Ryan Holiday?

  Especially now, yeah.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  You just keep trying.

• 54:23Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 54:23Speaker 01

  Um, this is like changing the subject slightly, but I just wanted to say one thing, which is that, um, I realized you and I have books coming out on the same day next week, right? Your book comes out next week?

• 54:38Ryan Holiday?

  Really? Tell me all about that.

• 54:39Speaker 01

  Uh, and the, I mean, I don't know when this will air, but in, in the current moment, it's next week. And so congratulations to us, I guess. Isn't that weird?

• 54:50Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, no, that's, that's actually a great place to wrap up. So talk me through, because there's actually something I wrote, I wrote down. Walk me through, to me, Stoicism is the ultimate philosophy for the unpredictable, heartbreaking, also exciting bipolar reality of being an artist, particularly in the internet era. How are you, how are you taking what you've learned and applying it to your life, but also to putting out vulnerable creative work in the middle of a pandemic?

• 55:23Speaker 01

  Uh, that is totally correct. Stoicism is super helpful. Oh, I should say, that's another thing that really surprised me about, um, sort of my, my Stoicism journey this summer was realizing that it was super helpful for, I think I wrote about this in the piece, there's a moment where I was like, yeah, yeah, I get it. Don't get attached to outcomes. Don't get attached to success and money. I'm not like that anyway. And then immediately sort of started looking at, um, the stuff I was supposed to do to help promote my book and started feeling like, just about it. It was like, oh, my God, am I doing enough? It's like, and then I was like, God damn it, Amy, no. You're getting attached to outcomes and it's hard not to do that when you're publishing a book,

• 56:08Speaker 01

  because for so long in making the book, it's a creative process and then it flips over to this other. Commercial process.

• 56:17Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 56:18Speaker 01

  And, and it's right. And it's very rare. And like you said, a book, mine is fictions. It feels very, it's a novel and it, that always feels very vulnerable because it's, it's weird. It's this stuff I made up in my head and then all of a sudden these pretend people are out walking around and people are dealing with them and it's very strange.

• 56:42Ryan Holiday?

  So what's the title?

• 56:43Speaker 01

  Oh, it's called Unseen City. It's about a haunted house, basically exactly like your book, right?

• 56:51Speaker 01

  The same, but I have just been actually actively reminding myself, I'm holding my goddamn medallion in my hand and reminding myself that I did the work. I have done my job. I'm going to continue to do what I can, but I'm not actually in control of how it's received, what people think of it. You know, I just have to, to remember that I'm not in control of that.

• 57:19Ryan Holiday?

  And look, when it's a, when it's a huge success and it sells millions of copies, I think the important thing about stoicism is that you still have to tell yourself the same thing, right? So I think people think stoicism is this like, like getting rid of hope, right? Like, you know, like just tell yourself it's going to fail and then you won't be heartbroken when it doesn't happen.

• 57:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 57:39Ryan Holiday?

  But it's not just that. It's, it's also like, that's what Marcus is emperor and he's, he's trying to go, this doesn't make you that special. It could have gone another way, you know? And so I think it's a, it's a, you know, he says a rock gains nothing by going up and it loses nothing by coming down. And to me, that's, I try to remind myself that every time I'm putting out a project or publishing, like the fact that, that, that my last Forbes Forge piece did X views does not make it any better or worse than the one before it that did half as many views. That just happened to be how the numbers came down.

• 58:15Speaker 01

  That's exactly right, right. And I think you're right that that's almost the hardest part. It's like when things aren't going how you want them to, you're aware that you need a way to reframe it in your mind to make it okay. But it's almost more harder to remember and just as important, if not more important, to remember that when things seem to be going really well, too, because you still don't want to, you know, hitch your self-worth to whatever number that is. Because it's because that's the whole thing. It's it's going to go down, it's going to go up, but you have to be there for for the process and and just right, not connect your self-worth to it, which is hard to remember.

• 58:55Speaker 01

  But I hope that your book is like so uncomfortably successful that you have a hard time with that.

• 59:02Ryan Holiday?

  Likewise, yeah, but I hope I hope you're having to remind yourself that your success doesn't make you better or worse than other people.

• 59:10Speaker 01

  Right. Nothing but struggles ahead for you, I hope.

• 59:14Ryan Holiday?

  Amy, thank you so much.

• 59:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you. Thanks for having me on. Thanks for not being mad at me about my piece. I appreciate it.

• 59:20Ryan Holiday?

  Not at all.

• 59:22Ryan Holiday?

  If you're liking this podcast, we would love for you to subscribe. Please leave us a review on iTunes or any of your favorite podcast listening apps. It really helps. And tell a friend.