Pod Insights My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark 518 - Live at the San Diego Civic Theatre (San Diego Night 1) About this episode Live at the San Diego Civic Theatre, Georgia covers the disappearance of Pentecostal evangelist Aimee Semple McPherson and Karen tells the story of Ed Newcomer’s investigation into butterfly trafficker Yoshi Kojima.
For our sources, please visit https://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes.
Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g.
Head to social media to share your favorite moments from this episode.
Instagram: instagram.com/myfavoritemurder http://instagram.com/myfavoritemurder
Facebook: facebook.com/myfavoritemurder http://facebook.com/myfavoritemurder
TikTok: tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder http://tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder
Send your hometown stories to [email protected] mailto:[email protected] .
Join the Fan Cult to access ad-free episodes of My Favorite Murder. Members also receive merch store discounts, exclusive audio and video content and more! Visit www.fancult.supercast.com http://www.fancult.supercast.com/ to join.
Shop for My Favorite Murder and other Exactly Right merchandise here: www.exactlyrightstore.com http://www.exactlyrightstore.com/.
Rate, review and follow My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to listen.
See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Transcript 16,366 words · 7 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Speaker 00 This is exactly right.
0:06 Speaker 01 Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.
0:36 Speaker 02 In New Orleans, truckers kept getting sideswiped the exact same way. When a man is found murdered under questionable circumstances related to these accidents, the rubber hits the road. And what the feds uncover is a complex scheme of staged wrecks, financial fraud, and a pair of conspiring lovers behind it. This is a story about fake accidents that led to real consequences. Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
1:48 Karen Kilgariff? What's up, San Diego?
1:55 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
1:57 Karen Kilgariff? Do you see somebody way at the top of the third row up there? Hi, guys. Just a little, a little camera light flashing back and forth.
2:08 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my God. I always forget that's gonna happen until I walk out on stage and then it happens. And I was like, oh, I wanna cry every time.
2:15 Karen Kilgariff? I know. It's very moving. Hi, how's it going, everybody?
2:24 Georgia Hardstark? There is a sign someone held up that said Karen Doerr. What is it called? Herky?
2:31 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, first of all, first of all.
2:35 Karen Kilgariff? Not taking notes from the audience first and foremost. Don't boss me the fuck around. And also.
2:42 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah!
2:45 Karen Kilgariff? As if, as if. You know there's some ex-cheerleaders in the house right now that are like, please. Oh, no, that many?
2:55 Georgia Hardstark? Really?
2:56 Karen Kilgariff? Uh-oh.
2:57 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, shit.
2:57 Karen Kilgariff? We're surrounded by ex-cheerleaders, apparently.
3:01 Georgia Hardstark? You know they'll fight for you.
3:02 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
3:03 Georgia Hardstark? They'll throw down.
3:03 Karen Kilgariff? I hope so.
3:05 Georgia Hardstark? What's going on?
3:07 Karen Kilgariff? Well, we're on tour, everybody.
3:09 Georgia Hardstark? Yep.
3:12 Karen Kilgariff? It's very exciting.
3:13 Georgia Hardstark? It's very fun.
3:14 Karen Kilgariff? It's very exciting. I will tell a really quick airport story.
3:18 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
3:19 Karen Kilgariff? You were there as well.
3:21 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
3:22 Karen Kilgariff? So.
3:25 Karen Kilgariff? Which isn't that common. They don't let us fly at the same time a lot.
3:30 Karen Kilgariff? But we were at this airport and I walked in and one of the first people I saw was the British actress Jessie Buckley for some reason.
3:41 Georgia Hardstark? Irish? Sorry, nothing.
3:44 Karen Kilgariff? She has red hair. She has red hair. I don't think that necessarily means she's Irish. It doesn't matter.
3:49 Georgia Hardstark? It doesn't matter.
3:50 Karen Kilgariff? Listen, if you saw the recent Olivia Colman movie, Nasty Little Letters or whatever it was called, it's hilarious. She is the redheaded woman. She's the young mother that is being fucked over by everybody. So she's an amazing actress.
4:06 Georgia Hardstark? She's so good.
4:07 Karen Kilgariff? She's so good. She's been in a million things, but she's my, one of my favorites. And so when I walked in, I almost walked straight up to her, which is not my style at all. I'm really not interested in celebrities of any kind or what they do, because it's all fake, but.
4:24 Karen Kilgariff? But she's one of those kind of people where she's like so legit and badass. And I was like, I almost went up like, "Oh my God, I can't believe..." and like God in her face. But instead I saw Georgia first and I was like, "Do you..." and I didn't have three words out. And Georgia's like, "I know, I know."
4:40 Georgia Hardstark? But she never does that. It's so true. Like she doesn't care about famous people. So it's like a big deal. And I was like...
4:46 Karen Kilgariff? But you were definitely like, "Calm the fuck down and you are not going over there." And I was like, "Yes, of course."
4:52 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, you should have. I would have pushed you.
4:54 Karen Kilgariff? Well, but here's what happened.
4:56 Georgia Hardstark? Oh no.
4:57 Karen Kilgariff? So when we landed, I was like, "Yeah, that's best that I didn't say anything to her." And then I was walking out the door and just by chance, she was walking this way. So as I was moving, just never paused or anything, I just went, "You're the best." And she literally went like this. "Thank you." Did not want to hear it at all. It's spooky season, ladies and gentlemen.
5:29 Georgia Hardstark? It's very... I can't even see you.
5:31 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. There will be a three-car pileup on this stage tonight. Get ready.
5:38 Georgia Hardstark? What are you wearing? Oh my God, this is cute. I love those.
5:41 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, thank you. Oh, my outfit? Oh, this dress? It's no big deal. It's just... It's yet another dress with pockets. Although, let me just say this. We were just in Oakland and I decided I was gonna wear a vintage dress 'cause I liked it. It didn't have pockets. That audience turned on me so fucking fast. So fast.
6:08 Georgia Hardstark? Tell them about the brooch backstage.
6:12 Karen Kilgariff? I found this brooch, that's some... a beautiful purple brooch that someone gave us. Maybe Salt Lake City, maybe? On this trip, we get lovely gifts from people. And so I had it in my bag. And then Georgia's like, "This is the dress I'm gonna wear." And I'm like, "Oh my God." And I pulled the brooch out and I'm like, "You could wear this." And she's like...
6:32 Georgia Hardstark? We were like admiring it. It was shimmery, it was gorgeous.
6:35 Karen Kilgariff? It matches perfectly, and then she's like, "Okay," and she turns around, and it literally was as if the brooch jumped up out of my hand and slammed itself on the ground. Because it's like, suddenly I dropped it, and the center gem from this brooch busted out and broke into four pieces.
6:53 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, it was tragic.
6:55 Karen Kilgariff? It was bad, but now it's more of a like a wreath shape with nothing in the center.
7:00 Georgia Hardstark? It still works.
7:01 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
7:01 Georgia Hardstark? It still works.
7:02 Karen Kilgariff? We could make it work.
7:03 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
7:03 Karen Kilgariff? Um, I thought you had some anecdotes that you said you wanted to share.
7:08 Georgia Hardstark? Um, something about chin hair and how, being on tour, for some reason, every hotel we've stayed in has like terrible mirror lighting. So when I get home, it's just hair city on my face.
7:23 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, yes.
7:24 Georgia Hardstark? And I run straight to that magnifying mirror and just zen out.
7:29 Karen Kilgariff? Got rid of it.
7:30 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
7:31 Karen Kilgariff? Because there are those like old witch in the woods hairs that sneak up on you. And then you're just like, "Great, how many people have I talked real close to with like a thing coming out?" Always the question you have to ask yourself. "Are you gonna do yours?"
7:47 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, here's what I'm wearing.
7:48 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
7:51 Georgia Hardstark? Thank you. I got it a few days ago when we were in San Francisco for shows.
7:57 Karen Kilgariff? Nice.
7:58 Georgia Hardstark? And I'm obsessed with it. Isn't it pretty? There's some vintage stains on it.
8:02 Karen Kilgariff? Sure.
8:03 Georgia Hardstark? Sure, I could have washed those out. Oh, look at that. That's a big fucking stain.
8:06 Karen Kilgariff? You did call this the dust cover earlier. You're like, "What do I do with the dust cover of this?"
8:12 Georgia Hardstark? It does look like I'm a couch that like hasn't been sat on in 25 years.
8:16 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, hasn't been a butt on this couch in 25 years.
8:20 Georgia Hardstark? Should we sit at our tiny table?
8:22 Karen Kilgariff? Let's do it.
8:26 Georgia Hardstark? This is Mike Gifford, Murder the Podcast.
8:28 Karen Kilgariff? That's right.
8:31 Karen Kilgariff? And that's Georgia Hardstark.
8:32 Georgia Hardstark? That's Karen Kilgariff.
8:35 Karen Kilgariff? And we're very, so pleased to be with you tonight, San Diego. Oh, look at this tiny thing.
8:42 Georgia Hardstark? We got a text at like 5 o'clock being like, hey, so we ordered the exact same tables we always do, but for some reason it's tiny. Is that okay? As if we were gonna be like, no, put it on a box or something.
8:56 Karen Kilgariff? So... I did yell "four bricks" just at the top of my lungs. Four bricks!
9:01 Georgia Hardstark? I think it's better than if it was like too tall and we looked like little children.
9:05 Karen Kilgariff? But I also like, this is a real Alice in Wonderland situation where we're just like, too big, too small, we don't know.
9:13 Georgia Hardstark? I don't mind it. Yeah, it works, right?
9:16 Karen Kilgariff? Sure.
9:16 Georgia Hardstark? Sure, it's fine. Um, do you want to tell them why they're here and what's happening?
9:22 Karen Kilgariff? Absolutely.
9:22 Georgia Hardstark? Great.
9:23 Karen Kilgariff? Um, you're here because you really like listening to two people talk for reasons that
9:32 Karen Kilgariff? you can't explain to your family, our friends, except for those special ones that understand and already were listening.
9:42 Karen Kilgariff? You came out at 7:00 PM on a Tuesday to support this talking and we really appreciate it.
9:50 Georgia Hardstark? We know. A Tuesday?
9:54 Karen Kilgariff? This is time for Bible study. You should not be here.
10:00 Karen Kilgariff? But if you are here and you don't listen to this podcast, you're gonna be very confused and probably upset. So we just want to say this to you now. This is a true crime comedy podcast, but Georgia and I don't think murder is funny. We just think we're funny. And we are the types of people who have had the kind of trauma in our early lives that we then learned to cope with that trauma through the use of humor. And so, we also, I think, coped with it through the obsession with true crime. And those things that, when they come together, only certain people understand.
10:41 Karen Kilgariff? So if you're a drag-along and someone made you come here and you don't like what's happening, you are welcome to get the fuck out.
10:53 Georgia Hardstark? Thank you. Good job.
10:55 Karen Kilgariff? Thank you. I'm gonna make this, by the end of this tour, that speech will be 45 minutes long. And then we'll just mention two cases in passing and get the fuck out ourselves.
11:09 Georgia Hardstark? Um, alright, well, we don't know each other's stories, right? We also never tell people that, but it's true, which makes everyone who works with us hate our guts.
11:17 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, but it's always a surprise. What Georgia's about to tell me is a surprise. What I'm going to tell her is a surprise to her.
11:23 Georgia Hardstark? And I'm first, right?
11:24 Karen Kilgariff? And you are first.
11:25 Georgia Hardstark? Let's get into it.
11:32 Speaker 01 OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of 5-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.
12:01 Georgia Hardstark? There are plenty of things that keep you up at night. Your sleep tracker shouldn't be one of them.
12:05 Karen Kilgariff? You know that feeling, laying in bed, staring at the ceiling, counting all the times you said something weird.
12:10 Georgia Hardstark? And then you wake up and check your sleep score. Now you have to start your day knowing that you failed at sleeping.
12:16 Karen Kilgariff? Hatch Sleep Clock does it differently.
12:18 Georgia Hardstark? It tracks your sleep from your nightstand. No ring, wristband, or judgmental score waiting for you in the morning.
12:23 Karen Kilgariff? Instead, you'll get personalized insights to understand your sleep and recommendations to build a routine you'll love night after night.
12:30 Georgia Hardstark? Fall asleep to the next chapter of an audiobook like The Odyssey, a nervous system reset meditation, or a calming sound bath.
12:36 Karen Kilgariff? Then you can find out which gives you 20 more minutes of deep sleep each night.
12:40 Georgia Hardstark? Hatch Sleep Clock.
12:42 Karen Kilgariff? The sleep tracker designed to get you to sleep. Available now on hatch.co.
12:46 Georgia Hardstark? Goodbye.
12:48 Karen Kilgariff? This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Turning something you love into a career is exciting. Then come the invoices. Lucky for you, Squarespace can handle the business stuff, so you can focus on your business. From consultations to events and experiences, you can showcase your skills with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business. With Squarespace's collection of cutting-edge design tools, anyone can build a beautiful, professional, online presence that perfectly fits their brand or business. Get paid on time with professional invoices and online payments. Plus, streamline your workflow with built-in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools. Head to Squarespace.com/murder for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code MURDER to save 10% off your first purchase
13:33 Karen Kilgariff? of a website or domain. Goodbye. Don't you feel like a proper Victorian lady sidesaddling this table?
13:42 Georgia Hardstark? It does feel very like...
13:44 Karen Kilgariff? Quite.
13:45 Georgia Hardstark? I should have a cigarette.
13:46 Karen Kilgariff? Ooh.
13:47 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
13:49 Karen Kilgariff? Next time.
13:51 Georgia Hardstark? So, you know in Echo Park, there is a huge, white-domed megachurch called Angeles Temple?
13:58 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
13:59 Georgia Hardstark? You know the one?
14:00 Karen Kilgariff? I do.
14:01 Georgia Hardstark? And there's always people walking around it for some reason?
14:03 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, they've got a lot of pedestrian action over there.
14:05 Georgia Hardstark? They do. It's a thing in Echo Park. And so that building is actually one of the country's oldest megachurches. Did you know that? And it was founded in 1923 by the ennebatic character I'm going to be talking about tonight. And she actually started amassing followers right here in San Diego. So it's a bit of a SoCal story. Want to take a look at the temple? Nope, that's her.
14:30 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, there she is.
14:31 Georgia Hardstark? That's not a temple, that's her. Oops. There she is. This is a story about an eccentric Pentecostal evangelist. Evangelist?
14:40 Karen Kilgariff? Evangelist.
14:41 Georgia Hardstark? Thank you. Who at the height... I'm Jewish. Who at the... (laughter) We don't have those. Who at the height of her popularity disappeared under mysterious circumstances. This is the story of Sister Amy Semple McPherson.
14:56 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
14:59 Karen Kilgariff? I bet you've bought that dress before.
15:01 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, I bet I have that dress.
15:02 Karen Kilgariff? Don't you think?
15:03 Georgia Hardstark? And I'm always going like that.
15:04 Karen Kilgariff? You're like, "Huh."
15:05 Georgia Hardstark? I'm always, "Huh," reading out of a Bible.
15:07 Karen Kilgariff? Amen.
15:10 Georgia Hardstark? Hear ye, is that how you?
15:12 Karen Kilgariff? Yep. A lot of "hear ye, hear ye" in the Bible, definitely.
15:18 Georgia Hardstark? Cool. So the main sources I used for the story are Claire Hoffman's book, Sister Sinner, The Miraculous Life and Mysterious Disappearance of Amy Semple McPherson, and the PBS American Experience documentary, Sister Amy. She got her own American Experience episode.
15:34 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, that's big, it's big. Sorry, really quick, can we have a little more of us in the monitors onstage? So sorry to say something like that in front of everybody.
15:42 Georgia Hardstark? I know. I feel like I'm very loud in my mic, I just can only hear myself. And I don't like her.
15:51 Karen Kilgariff? Well, we do, so shut up.
15:57 Karen Kilgariff? How's that? Is that a little better?
15:59 Georgia Hardstark? Yes, that works better. And here's the temple in Echo Park.
16:03 Karen Kilgariff? There it is. There used to be a really good diner.
16:06 Georgia Hardstark? Bright spot.
16:07 Karen Kilgariff? The fucking bright spot. And they just kept changing hands, and now it's something totally different.
16:12 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
16:12 Karen Kilgariff? You can't go there anymore?
16:13 Georgia Hardstark? No, you can't.
16:14 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, you can.
16:16 Georgia Hardstark? Maybe it's better, we haven't been in a while.
16:17 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, that's right. Chuck your Yelp reviews, don't listen to us.
16:21 Georgia Hardstark? Don't ever listen to us. Okay, so let's talk about Amy. She, I mean, Amy Kennedy was born in 1890 and raised in a devout Methodist and Salvation Army household in rural Ontario, Canada. Did you know they have a rural? Good job. As a teenager, Amy starts questioning how religion and science coexist. How does it work? No one's ever figured it out.
16:47 Karen Kilgariff? Magnets.
16:49 Georgia Hardstark? Magnets. Right at this time, boredom and curiosity leads her to a local tent revival, where a Pentecostal preacher is wooing new believers. So imagine this young lady, she's like not sure what she wants out of life. She's in a rural place, and she comes in.
17:07 Karen Kilgariff? I've been there.
17:10 Georgia Hardstark? And she sees the very good-looking preacher, Robert Semple. And she's like, "That's my religion now." Amen.
17:18 Karen Kilgariff? I believe.
17:19 Georgia Hardstark? I believe. They get married in 1908, when Amy's just 18. And together, they become missionaries, bringing God's Word to China. They're very successful at it, particularly Amy. Like, the picture I showed you, that's when I wanted that. I did it wrong.
17:37 Karen Kilgariff? It's okay.
17:38 Georgia Hardstark? She's a charismatic and powerful preacher, and...
17:43 Karen Kilgariff? There she goes.
17:43 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, thank you so much. That was on me. Thank you. Appreciate you. Thank you. Hey, she's like, "I'm right here."
17:49 Karen Kilgariff? Look at the power. You yourself are right now believing whatever it is she's trying to espouse.
17:55 Georgia Hardstark? Amen.
17:56 Karen Kilgariff? Amen.
17:57 Georgia Hardstark? She's, um, they went over a lot of converts together, because they're just charismatic and probably really good-looking together. Unfortunately, they both also contract malaria. Yeah, and so while pregnant, Amy survives, and her new... But her new husband dies of fucking dysentery.
18:15 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, no.
18:16 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, like, what a bummer.
18:21 Karen Kilgariff? I hate to question you this early in the story.
18:23 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. Always do it.
18:25 Karen Kilgariff? He contracted malaria, but he died of dysentery?
18:28 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, yeah.
18:30 Karen Kilgariff? Really?
18:30 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
18:30 Karen Kilgariff? He got two?
18:31 Georgia Hardstark? According to my, to Ally, yeah. Does one, does one happen after the other?
18:38 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, to me, no, never.
18:41 Georgia Hardstark? Are you questioning religion and science again?
18:43 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, right now.
18:44 Georgia Hardstark? And how they work together? No, no, no. Amy says no. But Amy gives birth to a daughter and months after Robert's death, and names her Roberta. And the two of them sail back to America shortly after Roberta's birth.
19:01 Karen Kilgariff? So her baby lives?
19:02 Georgia Hardstark? Her baby and her live, and her preacher husband dies.
19:05 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
19:06 Georgia Hardstark? Of dysentery.
19:07 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
19:07 Georgia Hardstark? Maybe.
19:10 Karen Kilgariff? Asterisk, look it up later.
19:11 Georgia Hardstark? Right. So Amy joins her mother back home, who often, her name is Mildred, but she goes by Minnie. And she starts working with the Salvation Army in New York City, and that's where she meets an accountant named Harold Stuart McPherson, who she then marries in 1912. At this point, Amy's still just in her early twenties. And the newlyweds move to Providence, Rhode Island, and they have a son named Rolf. But Amy is not great. She's not doing great. She has a big depressive episode and pretty much, the issue is that she doesn't want to be a housewife. She wants to be back on the road preaching. And she thinks it's her calling. And so she gets back to evangelizing.
19:57 Karen Kilgariff? Evangelizing?
19:58 Georgia Hardstark? Evangelizing? That's a word?
20:00 Karen Kilgariff? Uh huh.
20:01 Georgia Hardstark? Gonna fold me.
20:02 Karen Kilgariff? That's a word.
20:04 Georgia Hardstark? Doesn't seem right.
20:05 Karen Kilgariff? What a wonderful life you've led, not having to deal with this shit.
20:15 Georgia Hardstark? And so she gets back to it, and she holds tent revivals, amassing such a sizable following that she's forced to go to larger and larger venues. She becomes really popular. And she's so passionate about her work that she starts putting more and more production value into every appearance. So like a little razzle-dazzle.
20:33 Karen Kilgariff? The hand goes up a little higher, fans out a little further.
20:36 Georgia Hardstark? Maybe there's some sequence. Does God like sequence? I don't know.
20:39 Karen Kilgariff? Sure does. He invented them.
20:43 Georgia Hardstark? And so, her servants are fully theatrical with costumes and props and, oh, would I pay to see that right now?
20:51 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
20:52 Georgia Hardstark? You know?
20:53 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
20:54 Georgia Hardstark? But I wouldn't actually pay to see it.
20:55 Karen Kilgariff? No.
20:56 Georgia Hardstark? Amy performs faith healings, speaks in tongues, and describes experiencing divine visions. She finds a way to strike that perfect balance of fervor and spectacle, and she has this really smart idea of keeping the super fanatical followers in a different tent so they don't scare away the like, "not, we're not there yet" people, the like, "maybe, oh, let's check this out."
21:18 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
21:19 Georgia Hardstark? So she just keeps them apart.
21:20 Karen Kilgariff? It's like, "Everybody chill in this tent, and if you want to freak out about Jesus, you have to go over there."
21:25 Georgia Hardstark? Go next door.
21:26 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
21:27 Georgia Hardstark? To freak out about Jesus.
21:28 Karen Kilgariff? And they're like, "Hey, you're the one that's making us freak out this much."
21:31 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
21:32 Karen Kilgariff? And she's like, "Not my problem. I can't, can't control my charisma."
21:35 Georgia Hardstark? So Amy's great at what she does, but her new husband Harold doesn't love that she's so married to her work. So she gets sick from appendicitis, and the experience, I guess, was so hardcore that it changes her. And through the suffering, she hears a voice telling her to return to preaching on the road full-time. So she takes the kids and gets the fuck out of there.
22:00 Karen Kilgariff? So she gets appendicitis?
22:03 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, and she's like, "Ow, ow, God is speaking to me."
22:06 Karen Kilgariff? God is saying, "I shouldn't be a housewife anymore, so bye."
22:09 Georgia Hardstark? So bye. But she sends letters to Harold, inviting him to join her. She's like, "I'm not breaking up with you, but you have to come to me."
22:17 Karen Kilgariff? You do my thing.
22:18 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. He takes her up on it at first, hoping to drag her back home. He sets up their tents, and he tries his own hand at preaching alongside her.
22:26 Karen Kilgariff? Right?
22:27 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
22:28 Karen Kilgariff? Can't do it.
22:29 Georgia Hardstark? They sell their house and live out of their so-called gospel car, which, what do you think that was?
22:33 Karen Kilgariff? Edsel.
22:34 Georgia Hardstark? Edsel, definitely. With their two young kids, oh, those kids were fucking miserable, eh? So there's no air conditioning, for sure, anywhere.
22:43 Karen Kilgariff? But maybe no school.
22:44 Georgia Hardstark? Oh.
22:45 Karen Kilgariff? So, yeah.
22:46 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
22:47 Karen Kilgariff? Hippie Wonderland.
22:48 Georgia Hardstark? But Harold's super not into it. He's not nearly as popular as his wife, which had a sting. So he leaves her behind, returns to Rhode Island and files for divorce. So she tours, Amy tours the South with her mother instead. She's like, "Fuck you, you're cool."
23:05 Karen Kilgariff? "I'll get my mom."
23:06 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, "I'm calling my mom."
23:07 Karen Kilgariff? "She's not a sore loser."
23:08 Georgia Hardstark? Right. And they preach from a perch on the backseat of their convertible. She just shouts sermons through a megaphone, which...
23:19 Karen Kilgariff? That's how they do it.
23:20 Georgia Hardstark? That's...
23:21 Karen Kilgariff? That's pretty standard.
23:22 Georgia Hardstark? "God, can I hear you just talking?" No, wait, I'm on a microphone right now. What am I fucking talking about?
23:28 Karen Kilgariff? "Can you hear us, Lord?"
23:30 Georgia Hardstark? "Kettle," etc.
23:32 Karen Kilgariff? "It's us. Can you get me a new brooch? Is this how this works?"
23:37 Georgia Hardstark? "It's us, we're podcasters."
23:39 Karen Kilgariff? "It's us."
23:39 Georgia Hardstark? "The highest form of..."
23:42 Karen Kilgariff? "Believer."
23:43 Georgia Hardstark? That's right. You know, our religion podcast.
23:46 Karen Kilgariff? "We're literally turning this audience that gets us so hard."
23:49 Georgia Hardstark? I know.
23:50 Karen Kilgariff? "What else can we make fun of?"
23:52 Georgia Hardstark? "All the cheerleaders hate us already." "Amy Pentecostal's in the house."
23:56 Karen Kilgariff? "They're like, 'Bye.'"
23:59 Georgia Hardstark? So they go out, the audiences are like building. They're super awed by her public faith healing performances. And word about her talent spreads across the country. And she works so hard, this might sound familiar, she makes herself sick.
24:13 Karen Kilgariff? Oh.
24:15 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
24:16 Karen Kilgariff? She says as she wipes her nose.
24:18 Georgia Hardstark? This is like, I have a nerve, I'm really not happy about this nose thing that keeps happening.
24:23 Karen Kilgariff? I think it's charming and people love it.
24:27 Georgia Hardstark? Maybe the first time, thank you. We need to be sponsored by an allergy medication. Promo code murder.
24:35 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
24:38 Georgia Hardstark? So she makes herself sick from exhaustion. A doctor advises her to recuperate in warmer, warmer climate. Because I think that's what they do back then is just go over there or they bleed you out. Pick one.
24:49 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
24:51 Georgia Hardstark? So, but then her daughter comes down with the Spanish flu, which is my favorite influenza. Really, honestly. And while praying over her, she receives yet another divine message. God says, "Ye got to go," however he says it, "you gotta go to California."
25:10 Karen Kilgariff? He says, "Hear ye, hear ye."
25:11 Georgia Hardstark? "Hear ye, hear ye."
25:14 Georgia Hardstark? God loves California, I guess.
25:15 Karen Kilgariff? That's right.
25:18 Karen Kilgariff? You know why? The butter.
25:22 Georgia Hardstark? Aren't we known for our butter?
25:23 Karen Kilgariff? Such good butter.
25:24 Georgia Hardstark? That's your town, right?
25:26 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, petaluma-specific butter.
25:30 Georgia Hardstark? Um, the orange fields, but we don't have anymore. They're all gone.
25:34 Karen Kilgariff? They cut them all down.
25:35 Georgia Hardstark? They were great.
25:36 Karen Kilgariff? They cut them down, made them parking lots. You heard the song.
25:42 Georgia Hardstark? So Amy, Amy's skills are really profitable in Southern California, where she begins holding small revival meetings at local churches and rented halls with her mother, mini word spreads, and she starts drawing in larger crowds in tents and auditoriums, hey, across Southern California.
26:01 Karen Kilgariff? Stop comparing yourself to Amy Semplegra.
26:05 Georgia Hardstark? Podcasting and gospel is the same.
26:07 Karen Kilgariff? Same thing. It is the same. Very much so.
26:10 Georgia Hardstark? She's the original podcaster.
26:12 Karen Kilgariff? That's right.
26:12 Georgia Hardstark? She's OG podcaster.
26:13 Karen Kilgariff? That's true.
26:14 Georgia Hardstark? Spreading of the word.
26:17 Georgia Hardstark? At one point, the city has to call in the Marines in order to control a crowd of 30,000 people who show up to one of her revivals.
26:25 Karen Kilgariff? Holy shit.
26:25 Georgia Hardstark? So that's no fucking joke.
26:27 Karen Kilgariff? That's Joe Rogan level.
26:31 Georgia Hardstark? I wrote vintage viral. It's she went vintage viral.
26:34 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, that's right.
26:36 Georgia Hardstark? At this point, in the early 20s, Amy is now about 30, and the population of California is booming because people are coming from the Midwest and the East Coast because it's cooler here.
26:47 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
26:47 Georgia Hardstark? And so she starts focusing her efforts up north in Los Angeles, and celebrities start attending her services. Remember the show? No, I'm not gonna.
26:58 Karen Kilgariff? Yep.
26:58 Georgia Hardstark? You know what I'm talking about?
26:59 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
26:59 Georgia Hardstark? And she's in this.
27:00 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
27:01 Georgia Hardstark? What's it called?
27:04 Georgia Hardstark? Perry Mason.
27:05 Karen Kilgariff? I said it first. I said it first. Perry Mason.
27:08 Georgia Hardstark? Roll the tape back. We want to hear it.
27:10 Karen Kilgariff? And the girl from Warps and Black plays her.
27:12 Georgia Hardstark? Yes, yes.
27:14 Karen Kilgariff? And when you were talking about "I would kill to see that", there are scenes inside that church of her doing her thing.
27:20 Georgia Hardstark? Totally, and I think this storyline is, you know, is made for TV, but it's in there. But that's a great show, and she's part of it. So I don't even need to read this to you guys even. You know. They already know.
27:33 Karen Kilgariff? And now we're gonna watch it together.
27:36 Karen Kilgariff? Every episode.
27:38 Georgia Hardstark? So, media, celebrities start paying attention to her. She's getting a little famous. But remember, she's suffered a health setback. Because, and the whole point of her being in California is to recuperate. But she is a vintage workaholic.
27:52 Georgia Hardstark? And against doctor's orders, she continues her nightly services, which are so popular that people have to wait hours just to get inside to see her. That's how much they like her and God.
28:04 Georgia Hardstark? They ship her and God, is that what the kids say? Angelinas are so enraptured by her dramatic and theatrical style of worship that some of them build a house for her to live in. They're just like, "Here's a house. We like you so much."
28:18 Karen Kilgariff? Immediately?
28:19 Georgia Hardstark? I don't know. Timeline there.
28:20 Karen Kilgariff? They like leave church and they're just like, "Go get some wood. I have to express how I feel."
28:27 Georgia Hardstark? We must shelter her.
28:28 Karen Kilgariff? We must.
28:30 Georgia Hardstark? So...
28:30 Karen Kilgariff? It's kind of Amish of them to do that, actually.
28:33 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, maybe. I mean, there was so much land back then in Southern California.
28:37 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
28:37 Georgia Hardstark? You know, they could just walk outside and, you know.
28:40 Karen Kilgariff? Throw one up right here.
28:41 Georgia Hardstark? Right. And so, but there's something even bigger that she wants than a house and all these followers. Amy starts raising money to build her very own venue. Congregants eagerly contribute, and in 1923, the 5,300-seat Angelus Temple opens, which in today's seats is...
29:05 Karen Kilgariff? Doesn't matter, I get it wrong. Fifty thousand.
29:09 Georgia Hardstark? It looks like a white coliseum in the middle of Los Angeles. It's right by Echo Park Lake. And in its first seven years, more than 40 million visitors walk through its door to see this like biblical production every Sunday.
29:22 Karen Kilgariff? Dang.
29:23 Georgia Hardstark? Amy expands into radio. Hey, like podcasting.
29:27 Karen Kilgariff? This theory is coming true as you tell this story.
29:30 Georgia Hardstark? Becoming one of the first women to have her own broadcast license and founds her own religious radio station. And she starts being pictured with celebrities, and even Charlie Chaplin comes to her service sometimes.
29:43 Karen Kilgariff? Hey.
29:44 Georgia Hardstark? I know.
29:44 Karen Kilgariff? Should I tell my story about Charlie Chaplin?
29:46 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, that's so good.
29:48 Karen Kilgariff? You may have heard this already if you've listened to this podcast, which is the problem with having a podcast. For a person like me who loves to tell the same four anecdotes over and over. Like, "We heard this one, Karen."
30:00 Karen Kilgariff? When I bought the house I live in now, my cousin, my real estate agent cousin Pete Castro, contact him if you're trying to buy real estate in Los Angeles. He's a great person, very honest, really fun, good times. Anyhow, Pete Castro for all your real estate needs. Anyhow.
30:20 Karen Kilgariff? He went and had to go get some paperwork, finalize paperwork, whatever, and when he was there in the official city files, they found a certificate that said this house is owned by Charles Chaplin. And so they made a copy of it and then they gave it to me framed in a frame as a housewarming gift. And I was like, what? And they're like, yeah, it's, we found it on the city thing. And we all freaked out and I hung it in my kitchen. I would bring people, I would make people come and stand near it. Just be like, did you see, I don't know, you saw that he used to live here? And it's not that big of a house and it's actually, it was built in 1950, so it's kind of modern comparatively. But I didn't care and I never
31:04 Karen Kilgariff? really asked one question about it until mid-COVID, when my next door neighbor Joey came over and I met him for the first time and he'd lived there for like 30 years. And I was, and we were just talking about everything and getting to know each other. And then I said, oh, by the way, did you know Charlie Chaplin used to live in... And before the sentence was over, he was like, no, that's Chuck. That's Chuck, my old neighbor. He's not, no relation. No fucking relation to Charlie Chaplin whatsoever.
31:31 Georgia Hardstark? That's impossible. But here's the thing about that though. He lived there for 30 years, which is only 1995. So maybe he doesn't fucking know, maybe 10 years before that, Charlie fucking Chaplin.
31:46 Karen Kilgariff? It's like the oldest Charlie Chaplin of all time. It's like, hell.
31:52 Karen Kilgariff? I'll just say that I went in and very quietly took that framed thing down and stuck it in a drawer. And anytime anyone asks me, I pretend like I don't know what they're talking about. I never said that. What do you mean?
32:04 Georgia Hardstark? I love it. I think you should keep it up. Because it's just, yeah, it's a great story. Also, my cousin's here tonight, too. I forgot. Savannah. Hi, Savannah.
32:12 Karen Kilgariff? Hi.
32:13 Georgia Hardstark? She's the sweetest. She's a liar here in San Diego.
32:17 Karen Kilgariff? A real liar?
32:18 Georgia Hardstark? Mm-hmm. So you guys better watch out. No trippin' falls in this theater tonight.
32:25 Karen Kilgariff? No way.
32:26 Georgia Hardstark? Not on my watch. Radio, it happened. And then Charlie Chaplin happened.
32:31 Karen Kilgariff? Yep.
32:31 Georgia Hardstark? And then she just...
32:32 Karen Kilgariff? And then I stopped your story cold. And now we're back in.
32:36 Georgia Hardstark? Anyways, huge celebrity. She's working overtime, performing daily church services, live radio broadcasts, fundraising, and nationwide revival tours. You know, she wants to do it all. But the more attention Amy receives, of course, the more her haters want to bring her down, as they do. There are plenty, there are trolls back then, vintage trolls.
32:57 Karen Kilgariff? Always in humanity.
32:58 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
32:59 Karen Kilgariff? Since the dawn of man.
33:00 Georgia Hardstark? I'm angry that you're successful. No.
33:04 Karen Kilgariff? This is the story of Cain and Abel.
33:06 Georgia Hardstark? Is it?
33:07 Karen Kilgariff? Guys, we're gonna fold some scripture through this show tonight. Everyone's gonna leave happy, I swear to God.
33:15 Georgia Hardstark? There are plenty of people who don't believe in her particular brand of Christianity. They point out that she's a divorcee. Oh, no.
33:21 Karen Kilgariff? Ooh, slut.
33:25 Georgia Hardstark? And some of them think that the theatrics and flourishes are over the top. Like, meanwhile, people are speaking in tongues and have snakes, you know, it's just...
33:33 Karen Kilgariff? But she had props.
33:35 Georgia Hardstark? Okay. Is that not normal in church? You guys don't do props?
33:38 Karen Kilgariff? No, really, what it is is, but she's a woman.
33:41 Georgia Hardstark? Right. Critics accuse her of acting in her own best interest while she's pretending to be a modern-day disciple, which, God forbid. Well, literally.
33:51 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. That's actually the rule.
33:55 Georgia Hardstark? At the same time, this is not quite the profit-driven model of televangelists that would later be adopted. It's, her ministry actually does a fair amount of charity work and social good. They distribute food, they offer clothing banks, and they help local immigrants, particularly the working class and Hispanic populations of Echo Park. So, she does go.
34:19 Georgia Hardstark? What?
34:19 Karen Kilgariff? I like that you said, "She does a fair amount." And it's like, as a church, shouldn't you do like an unfair amount? Like an insane, over-the-top amount with all that money?
34:29 Georgia Hardstark? Fair.
34:30 Karen Kilgariff? Just an observation, not a new one. Joel Osteen. Remember when, like 10 years ago, Texas flooded? And Joel Osteen said his mega-church doors were closed to the public? And then the guy that had a mattress door opened his doors to the public? And that solved everything in this country? Because then people realized? No, you're right. You're right. You're right. My mistake. That wasn't it.
34:59 Georgia Hardstark? Not yet.
35:00 Karen Kilgariff? That did not happen.
35:01 Georgia Hardstark? Mm-hmm.
35:04 Georgia Hardstark? And then Amy disappears.
35:06 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, shit!
35:09 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, so on May 18th, 1926, Amy goes for a swim at Venice Beach along with her secretary, Emma. And that morning, Emma stays on the sand while Amy wades into the water. But after a while, Emma loses sight of her and starts freaking out. And so, she assumes she's drowned. Emma enlists lifeguards and bystanders to join the search immediately, but there's no sign of Amy, dead or alive. Within what?
35:37 Karen Kilgariff? No, I'll listen to the whole thing. I'm just gonna listen to the whole thing first. I swear to God.
35:44 Georgia Hardstark? No, do it.
35:45 Karen Kilgariff? I interrupted you right before Amy disappears last time. I don't want to do it.
35:49 Georgia Hardstark? That was it. That was the button.
35:51 Karen Kilgariff? So the last Emma saw was that she was out swimming?
35:55 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, and suddenly can't find her, doesn't see her, she doesn't come back to shore. Emma's freaking out. She calls a bunch of people to try to help find her, thinking she drowned.
36:02 Karen Kilgariff? Are you seeing this fog, or is it just me?
36:04 Georgia Hardstark? It's a lot of fucking fog. It's a fucking... The fog budget for this tour.
36:09 Karen Kilgariff? We're good on the fog.
36:11 Georgia Hardstark? Astronomical.
36:15 Karen Kilgariff? It truly is.
36:16 Georgia Hardstark? We're actually, we're not even getting paid. All, all our money's going to fog.
36:20 Karen Kilgariff? Straight to.
36:21 Georgia Hardstark? Straight to fog.
36:22 Karen Kilgariff? This hot ice machine, or whatever the fuck it's called. Anyway, over in foggy London town. What if that's what it was? We're just changing locations now?
36:33 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
36:34 Karen Kilgariff? So it was a foggy day at Venice Beach?
36:36 Georgia Hardstark? Actually, it probably was. Here's a picture of thousands of church members gathered to pray for her on the beach and to find her. They're praying, they're freaking out, there's no sign of her. That's a lot of fucking people at the beach.
36:51 Karen Kilgariff? How many of the people that were like around 12 years old that their parents forced them to go just kept staring at that roller coaster? They're just like, "Please mommy, please."
36:59 Georgia Hardstark? God gave me a message that he wants me on that roller coaster.
37:04 Karen Kilgariff? I'm feeling particularly called to the pier. Anyone else?
37:10 Georgia Hardstark? Thank you. And so, thousands of people go back to Angeles Temple to pray for her safe return, and some even begin the mourning process, thinking, "She probably fucking drowned." Her disappearance is huge news, a massive search effort takes place, there's deep sea divers, and hundreds of officers coming to shore. Here's a picture of a newspaper headline. "Amy Ferson Believe Drowned." She's got that hand up again.
37:38 Karen Kilgariff? She's, it, it turns out she could never put it down.
37:43 Georgia Hardstark? It's like in a cast.
37:47 Karen Kilgariff? A permanent cast arm.
37:50 Georgia Hardstark? "Asleep in the ocean."
37:52 Karen Kilgariff? What? What?
37:53 Georgia Hardstark? I wrote that.
37:53 Karen Kilgariff? Hold on a second. You know, back then, they could, if your last name was Mick Ferson, they could just substitute the C with an apostrophe?
38:00 Georgia Hardstark? Didn't know that.
38:02 Karen Kilgariff? Amy McPherson.
38:03 Georgia Hardstark? McPherson. Yeah, didn't know they did that.
38:07 Karen Kilgariff? It's strange. What else is going on in Los Angeles? Al Smith brands dry law retaliation.
38:13 Georgia Hardstark? Dishonest. Oh.
38:15 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
38:15 Georgia Hardstark? That Al Smith.
38:17 Karen Kilgariff? Young, Young suffers seven broken ribs. What?
38:23 Karen Kilgariff? Sorry, sorry to read the newspaper in front of you. My mistake.
38:28 Georgia Hardstark? The drag along is like, "What in the fuck am I watching?"
38:30 Karen Kilgariff? Why? They're reading paper in front of them, they're reading things behind them. It's not podcasting, dude.
38:41 Karen Kilgariff? Blah, blah, blah.
38:42 Georgia Hardstark? There is also speculation as to what really happened that day, particularly when Amy's radio engineer, a handsome but married man named Kenneth Ormiston, also turns out to be missing.
38:57 Karen Kilgariff? Did he go swimming?
38:59 Georgia Hardstark? He didn't go swimming. And Keith, Kenneth and Amy had actually been caught flirting, is all that we have, over the church's intercom system. Like, they didn't know they had hot mics on.
39:13 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, that's the best.
39:15 Georgia Hardstark? Hey, what kind of flirting? "Hey, baby." Like, they were not flirting, they were doing it. And you fucking know it. They just, like, are too proper to say that back then.
39:22 Karen Kilgariff? You're in the main chapel, dusting.
39:28 Karen Kilgariff? "Hey, what's up with you?" And then you're just like...
39:32 Karen Kilgariff? Everyone runs into the main chapel.
39:35 Georgia Hardstark? So good. Best day of someone's life.
39:37 Karen Kilgariff? So that, if that happened to you, you would want to just walk into the sea?
39:41 Georgia Hardstark? Yes, right, that's true. Oh, but fucking, yeah, that's not cool.
39:45 Karen Kilgariff? That's horrible. So embarrassing.
39:47 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. And he's married, so it looks really bad for this person who's saying she's really, really religious, with her hand up in the air all the time.
39:57 Karen Kilgariff? What if that's her flirting? "Hey, what's up?"
40:02 Georgia Hardstark? Right after that happened, Kenneth's wife shows up at the temple and makes a big scene about the whole thing. Good for her, fucking throwdown.
40:10 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, because her husband's now disappeared?
40:12 Georgia Hardstark? No, because someone caught them, quote, flirting.
40:15 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, this is in between the two?
40:16 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
40:16 Karen Kilgariff? Got you.
40:17 Georgia Hardstark? And this was, obviously, really embarrassing and distressing to Amy, but it had been even more distressing to her mother, Minnie, who had been involved at the church for years. She's really disappointed in her daughter. And then her daughter disappears. So after five whole weeks, Amy's mother, Minnie, decides to proceed with a memorial service at the temple for her daughter. She believes she's dead. But according to some reports, Minnie had actually pronounced Amy dead the day after her disappearance and suggested that her daughter, Roberta, who's now 15, should take over for her daughter. The next day, she's like, "Know what?"
40:53 Karen Kilgariff? My granddaughter's stepping in.
40:55 Georgia Hardstark? That's right, she listens to me now. You don't listen to me enough.
40:58 Karen Kilgariff? The 15-year-old should take over this mega-church.
41:03 Karen Kilgariff? Oh my god, you guys. Did you hear about Lot's life? Fifteen-year-olds don't talk like that anymore, Karen. Well, I don't care. It's my new character.
41:15 Georgia Hardstark? And so, 20,000 people attend the service for what they believe is Amy's memorial. And, um, but something strange is happening in the meantime. The police keep getting tips from people who believe they're seeing Amy in and around the town of Carmel by the Sea.
41:34 Karen Kilgariff? Oh.
41:35 Georgia Hardstark? About 450 miles north of here. And it's just a bunch of non-related people being like, "Yep, we know what she looks like, because she's always on the newspaper. There she is. Oh, no."
41:47 Georgia Hardstark? So authorities, um, so on June 23rd, 1926, one month after her disappearance into the ocean, Amy turns up in Aguaprita in Mexico, just across the border from Douglas, Arizona. She claims, you've heard this one before. She claims that she'd been held in a shack somewhere in the desert where kidnappers were holding her prisoner. Vintage.
42:12 Georgia Hardstark? Vintage Gone Girl, right?
42:16 Karen Kilgariff? The shack, shack girl. Get in there.
42:18 Georgia Hardstark? She says that she had been out on the beach that day, and a couple had come up to her and asked her to pray over their sick child. And then when she went to the car with them, swoop, they just kidnapped her. Yoink. But she can't give a ton of details about her captors or the shack in the desert, which is never found.
42:36 Karen Kilgariff? But what details do you need of a shack in the desert?
42:38 Georgia Hardstark? It's a shack.
42:39 Karen Kilgariff? It's shitty wood. There was graffiti on the inside. There was one small bench.
42:46 Georgia Hardstark? Right. That's, what do you need?
42:48 Karen Kilgariff? We know what a shack in the desert looks like.
42:51 Georgia Hardstark? And the media, of course, goes crazy on her return. Thongs of supporters celebrate at the Angeles Temple, believing that she survived through the divine protection, this ordeal that she was kidnapped. When she arrives back in L.A. by train, thousands of her fans and followers greet her at the station with flowers, songs, and chanting her name.
43:12 Karen Kilgariff? We, oh, Amy, you were in a shack in the desert, but now you're back. We're so proud of you. We love Jesus too. Amy, Amy, Amy.
43:26 Karen Kilgariff? Thank you so much.
43:29 Georgia Hardstark? Appreciate you. That was beautiful.
43:31 Karen Kilgariff? It's fun to imagine songs people would sing at this train station back in the 20s.
43:35 Georgia Hardstark? Because you don't know. You could be exactly right.
43:37 Karen Kilgariff? You know, it could be. Dead on.
43:39 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, there's something they're all singing.
43:40 Karen Kilgariff? "It's Amy's train, and here she comes. Let me stand over here. I'm a man."
43:52 Georgia Hardstark? So she makes her triumphant return to the pulpit, and the temple overflows and worshippers are convinced that she has a direct line to GOD.
44:04 Georgia Hardstark? She's dramatically escorted to thunderous applause. Escorted.
44:09 Karen Kilgariff? Like James Brown, kind of like she's all tired already.
44:12 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
44:13 Karen Kilgariff? Going out sweaty.
44:14 Georgia Hardstark? And people are overcome with joy. They faint at the sight of her. Like, it's, you know, are they faking it? That's a little dramatic.
44:21 Karen Kilgariff? It's like, wait, watch, her arm's about to go up. Oh my God.
44:26 Georgia Hardstark? I'm gonna lose it if her arm goes up. Is she gonna play "Hot to Go"?
44:31 Georgia Hardstark? I'm gonna lose it.
44:32 Karen Kilgariff? I will lose it.
44:35 Karen Kilgariff? We have a whole nother one of these after this. We gotta keep it fresh. Keep it tight.
44:42 Georgia Hardstark? That's right. So if Amy's followers had faith in her before, they're even more devout. The non-believers are like, uh, yeah, right. They're over it. This includes the LA District Attorney, a man named Asa Keys. He believes that this is either a publicity stunt or a cover-up for that romantic rendezvous. And so he convenes a grand jury to determine if fraud has taken place.
45:04 Karen Kilgariff? I just thought a second ago.
45:05 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
45:06 Karen Kilgariff? Again.
45:06 Georgia Hardstark? What?
45:07 Karen Kilgariff? About the intercom coming on. And it's like, so anyway, how many brothers and sisters do you have?
45:15 Georgia Hardstark? Are your eyes green or blue? I can't tell.
45:17 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, no. Oh, no.
45:19 Georgia Hardstark? We're mic'd.
45:22 Karen Kilgariff? Sorry.
45:22 Georgia Hardstark? No, it's good. We need, we need it.
45:25 Karen Kilgariff? We need it.
45:26 Georgia Hardstark? In today's economy.
45:28 Karen Kilgariff? Today's, in 2025, we need these terrible jokes.
45:33 Georgia Hardstark? So witnesses come forward, hotel maids, neighbors, people just from Carmel by the Sea. Have you been there?
45:40 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
45:41 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, it's cute, right? They like don't have house numbers or something?
45:43 Karen Kilgariff? Right. No addresses and it's covered in caramel. It's so delicious.
45:50 Georgia Hardstark? But it seems like a good place to hide out, especially back then, probably, right?
45:54 Karen Kilgariff? Nobody could get up the one back then.
45:56 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
45:57 Karen Kilgariff? It would take days.
45:58 Georgia Hardstark? The one? There was no one. There was only a two.
46:02 Georgia Hardstark? And so all of them swore that they saw Amy and Kenneth together. Reporters came on the courthouse steps. They were filing daily stories and her kidnapped case becomes front page news across America. Ask your grandparents about that.
46:20 Georgia Hardstark? Or great grandparents? Yeah. Everyone's young here.
46:23 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
46:24 Georgia Hardstark? Prosecutors paint this sensational picture that she had faked her an abduction to cover this illicit romance. Oh, God, Kenneth's wife must have been so fucking pissed.
46:34 Karen Kilgariff? So pissed. And also, it's such a weird idea where it's like, well, I'm insanely famous.
46:40 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
46:40 Karen Kilgariff? Because of God. So let me go ahead and have this affair.
46:44 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
46:44 Karen Kilgariff? By drowning.
46:46 Georgia Hardstark? Right. It doesn't sound planned.
46:48 Karen Kilgariff? That's just the beginning and we'll figure the rest out later. Come on, Kenneth.
46:52 Georgia Hardstark? That was a rough draft. She went for it.
46:56 Georgia Hardstark? So basically, if it's true, she lied to her congregation, obstructed justice, wasted the resources of police and the Coast Guard who were looking for her, all the volunteers who were looking for her body. So indictments for perjury and conspiracy loom, but Amy maintains her story and she has the support of thousands of her followers. So the grand jury winds up proving that Kenneth had rented a cottage in Carmel by the Sea, but Kenneth claims he had actually been renting it with a different woman altogether, not even Amy.
47:26 Karen Kilgariff? That's a great excuse. No, no, hear him out. Hear him out.
47:31 Georgia Hardstark? He's gotta be going somewhere with this, right?
47:33 Karen Kilgariff? It was not my side piece, Your Honor. It was my back piece. Don't worry about it. She's a different one.
47:40 Georgia Hardstark? But essentially, because he says that, the city's forced to drop the case due to lack of evidence in 1927, one year after the disappearance. So him saying he had a side piece that wasn't his side piece got her off.
47:53 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, and the wife is still over there like, "This isn't making it better, Kenneth."
47:57 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. Where's my redemption arc, please?
48:01 Karen Kilgariff? Please now.
48:02 Georgia Hardstark? There's actually one more theory about Amy's disappearance that gets kicked around, and that is actually was a legitimate kidnapping, and that her Amy's mother arranged it. Because, because remember her mom was in that Perry Mason, too?
48:16 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
48:16 Georgia Hardstark? There's very little evidence, allegedly, allegedly, they're all dead, that point to this, but some people do point out that Minnie was unhappy with her daughter's behavior and possible affair, and actually wanted her granddaughter to take over. So she was like, set up, set up a kidnapping to get rid of her daughter.
48:35 Karen Kilgariff? Yoinked her off the beach. Sent her to the desert to that one shack.
48:40 Georgia Hardstark? That shack that we all know and love.
48:42 Karen Kilgariff? It has a little chimney, but there's no fireplace. It's just what they need.
48:47 Georgia Hardstark? But yeah, not a lot to back this up. So Amy returns to her regularly scheduled pulpit programming at the Angeles Temple, but rarely discusses the incident. It tarnishes her image with nonbelievers, but you know, she's media savvy. She knows how to make everyone excited about God and her own self, and so people just keep coming to her church.
49:09 Karen Kilgariff? That's the magic recipe, right there.
49:11 Georgia Hardstark? Right, God and me.
49:12 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
49:12 Georgia Hardstark? That's it.
49:13 Karen Kilgariff? Mm-hmm.
49:13 Georgia Hardstark? In the 1930s, she marries and divorces again within a few years, but establish, works hard to establish her church, which she names the International Church of the Four Square Gospel. Is that a thing?
49:25 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
49:25 Georgia Hardstark? Four Square?
49:26 Karen Kilgariff? That's right.
49:27 Georgia Hardstark? It's not just a game?
49:28 Karen Kilgariff? It can be anything you want it to be.
49:31 Georgia Hardstark? Great. So, the church now does go by the Forest Glory Church and it's actually still operational in the Angeles Temple today. Outside of the temple, she has dozens of affiliated congregations spread across the US and makes use of them during the Great Depression to distribute clothing, food, and assistance to tens of thousands of struggling families. So she's like, "Sorry about that one thing, I'm gonna make up for it with this other thing."
49:56 Karen Kilgariff? Great, then we'll take it.
49:58 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. Her humanitarian work softens the public image. Behind the scenes, she is still suffering from a lack of sleep and a dependence on pills. She's traveling with her sermons devoted to the cause. I mean, touring back then had to suck, right?
50:15 Karen Kilgariff? Well, maybe, except for, "Don't forget that they used to put cocaine in soda." So...
50:20 Georgia Hardstark? That's true.
50:21 Karen Kilgariff? You know, depends on what you're into.
50:25 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. Driving around the country in your little un-air-conditioned car.
50:29 Karen Kilgariff? Cota out of your mind.
50:31 Georgia Hardstark? Cota your fucking mind.
50:33 Karen Kilgariff? Let's get the word out.
50:36 Georgia Hardstark? So, in September of 1944, she fails to show up at an appearance in Oakland. Oh my god, we just did that.
50:42 Karen Kilgariff? We were just there.
50:43 Georgia Hardstark? And people are immediately concerned so. On September 27, 1944, hotel staff where she's staying find her in her room, alone in her bed, unresponsive. Amy's declared dead at 53. The cause is ruled an accidental overdose of Secanol, that's sedative that everyone loved back then. Her premature passing shocks her followers, she's only 53, and the public toggles between her professional impact and her personal scandals. Her body's transported back to Los Angeles where upwards of 50,000 mourners file past her casket. How many touched her, do you think?
51:20 Karen Kilgariff? Doesn't matter, she's dead.
51:22 Georgia Hardstark? Okay. Well, I was really like, "I hope they had hand sanitizer." But that's weird.
51:28 Karen Kilgariff? It is.
51:33 Georgia Hardstark? Fingerprints, I'm talking like fingerprints, you know what I mean? No, no, inappropriate.
51:37 Karen Kilgariff? Yep.
51:38 Georgia Hardstark? The funeral is one of the largest Los Angeles has ever seen with traffic jams reported for blocks around Echo Park. Reporters noted that the grandeur of the Angeles Temple, filled with flowers, white drapery, and music, was more like a pageant than a traditional funeral. And in true Amy's spirit, the affair is a Hollywood-type production with genuine religious devotion. A fitting end for such a theatrical person. And that is the story of Amy Semple McPherson.
52:06 Karen Kilgariff? Wow. Wow. What do you think really happened?
52:17 Georgia Hardstark? I think she took off with her lover and had a fucking nice couple of weeks to herself.
52:22 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
52:23 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, what do you think?
52:25 Karen Kilgariff? I love the shack concept. I don't know why.
52:27 Georgia Hardstark? You're really sticking with that shack.
52:29 Karen Kilgariff? Because it also makes it feel like if it's a shack in the desert, it's really small, but then the kidnappers have to be in there with her. So they're all just shoved into...
52:37 Georgia Hardstark? Nobody's happy.
52:38 Karen Kilgariff? Right? And just, "We'll all suffer out here until your mom says we can come back to town." Anything's possible.
52:45 Georgia Hardstark? Truly. With God. I'm kidding.
52:50 Karen Kilgariff? Amen, and that is the message that we're trying to give to everyone tonight. Whatever God you would like that to be. Very open, non-denominational, but highly religious show.
53:41 Karen Kilgariff? At the ceiling, counting all the times you said something weird.
53:44 Georgia Hardstark? And then you wake up and check your sleep score. Now you have to start your day knowing that you failed at sleeping.
53:49 Karen Kilgariff? Hatch Sleep Clock does it differently.
53:51 Georgia Hardstark? It tracks your sleep from your nightstand. No ring, wristband, or judgmental score waiting for you in the morning.
53:57 Karen Kilgariff? Instead, you'll get personalized insights to understand your sleep and recommendations to build a routine you'll love night after night.
54:03 Georgia Hardstark? Fall asleep to the next chapter of an audiobook like The Odyssey, a nervous system reset meditation, or a calming sound bath.
54:10 Karen Kilgariff? Then you can find out which gives you 20 more minutes of deep sleep each night.
54:14 Georgia Hardstark? Hatch Sleep Clock.
54:15 Karen Kilgariff? The sleep tracker designed to get you to sleep. Available now on hatch.co.
54:20 Georgia Hardstark? Goodbye. Buying furniture is a lot of pressure. It has to look good, feel good, and hold up to everyday life.
54:26 Karen Kilgariff? Take it from me, a bad couch can ruin your life.
54:29 Georgia Hardstark? That's why Article focuses on stylish, high-quality pieces designed to last.
54:33 Karen Kilgariff? Article makes it effortless to create a stylish, long-lasting home at an unbeatable price.
54:38 Georgia Hardstark? They take great care in curating their collection, focusing on pieces that stand the test of time. There's no filler. Every item is chosen for its craftsmanship, design, and lasting value.
54:48 Karen Kilgariff? And with Article's 30-day satisfaction guarantee, you can shop with confidence, knowing that if you're not completely in love with your new furniture, you can easily return it. Man, there was nothing I loved more than when I was broke and I could still buy furniture that I needed at Article. It wasn't cheap-looking. It's like I was investing in these pieces that were comparatively inexpensive, and I was like finishing rooms. I was like getting the kitchen table that was like bringing the whole thing together. And it was such an incredible thing because I never got to do that before. I love that about Article.
55:20 Georgia Hardstark? Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.
55:25 Karen Kilgariff? To claim, visit article.com/murder, and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout.
55:30 Georgia Hardstark? That's article.com/murder for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.
55:35 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
55:38 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, we're gonna take a little bit of a left turn.
55:40 Georgia Hardstark? Let's do it.
55:43 Karen Kilgariff? My story, and I don't know if you've ever seen, there's a billboard that is on East Melrose, almost like, almost to Virgil. And, a couple times a year, or I guess, once a year, but I notice it, it doesn't matter. Oftentimes, once a year, there will be a billboard. It's a very small billboard, you wouldn't notice it.
56:11 Karen Kilgariff? For the LA Bug Fair. Have you ever seen this?
56:13 Georgia Hardstark? I've been to the LA Bug Fair.
56:15 Karen Kilgariff? What?
56:15 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. I ate a chocolate chirp cookie that had crickets in it.
56:20 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, hell, yes.
56:23 Karen Kilgariff? We begin this story, the 2003's Los Angeles most prestigious Hollywood event, the Natural History Museum's annual Bug Fair. That's right, this is a fucking Bug Fair story, ladies and gentlemen. I love that you know the Bug Fair.
56:38 Georgia Hardstark? Hell, yeah, it's rad. It's horrifying, but it's rad.
56:41 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. So, every year, if you don't know, thousands of people, nature enthusiasts and collectors alike, flock to the museum for this event, featuring workshops, educational exhibits, and a marketplace where you can buy pretty much any bug-related thing imaginable, including actual bugs, at this Bug Fair market. Go, are you looking for a praying mantis? Why don't you go on down to the Bug Fair, get a good price.
57:07 Georgia Hardstark? Come on up.
57:08 Karen Kilgariff? Did I ever tell you about the fucking time, I got a weird feeling, I was sitting in my house, at the kitchen table, and I got a weird feeling, and I looked at my shoulder, and there was a fucking praying mantis on my shoulder.
57:18 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my god.
57:19 Karen Kilgariff? And, this may be exaggeration, because I'm a big liar, but when I turned, when I turned and looked at this praying mantis, it went, its head went like this.
57:30 Georgia Hardstark? Ew!
57:31 Karen Kilgariff? Like it was also gazing back at me.
57:33 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my god.
57:34 Karen Kilgariff? And then I screamed and slapped it off my shoulder.
57:38 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my god!
57:39 Karen Kilgariff? It was so fucking scary.
57:41 Georgia Hardstark? That sounds like uncanny valley.
57:43 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
57:43 Georgia Hardstark? Where it's just, you are staring into the fucking eyeballs of a fucking...
57:47 Karen Kilgariff? I'm like, huh.
57:48 Georgia Hardstark? Perched.
57:49 Karen Kilgariff? I feel weird. Why do I feel so ew?
57:53 Georgia Hardstark? I mean, I love them. I just don't like surprise bugs. I can deal with bugs, but not surprise bugs.
57:59 Karen Kilgariff? And what is a more surprising bug than a fucking praying mantis?
58:02 Georgia Hardstark? In your house!
58:03 Karen Kilgariff? For god's sakes.
58:03 Georgia Hardstark? No.
58:04 Karen Kilgariff? Head separate from body, looking at you, thinking with its weird praying hands, more religion stuff. Okay.
58:17 Karen Kilgariff? You can buy live bugs and you can buy dead bugs that have been mounted and put on display. Among the crowd at the 17th Annual Bug Fair is a man named Ed Newcomer. Writer Jessica Speert describes him as, quote, "Your typical Southern California beach boy", end quote. He's in his 30s, he's a self-professed nature lover, but he's not here for bug fair fun, like everybody else. You see, Ed is a rookie special agent with the US Fish and Wildlife Service, and he is tasked with fighting the illegal wildlife trade. He sees his work as very important, and rightfully so. Special Agent Newcomer has said, quote, "There's really no more innocent victim than our natural environment."
59:02 Karen Kilgariff? You know, a bear can't call 911 and say that someone came and poached her cub.
59:09 Karen Kilgariff? What if he could?
59:13 Karen Kilgariff? Hello? Who is this? Is this a prank call?
59:17 Georgia Hardstark? Roar! My baby!
59:20 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, no! You said do a scene.
59:22 Georgia Hardstark? I did. I did it. It's me. I'm the problem.
59:25 Karen Kilgariff? You immediately accept responsibility.
59:28 Georgia Hardstark? It's all on me. I'll fucking take it.
59:30 Karen Kilgariff? We're still middle of the quote.
59:34 Karen Kilgariff? So it's really important to have law enforcement officers out there who are willing to take the time to try to solve wildlife crime.
59:43 Georgia Hardstark? Is he hot, too? Like, what's the deal?
59:45 Karen Kilgariff? We're gonna look at him in one second, in one second. So Ed got into this game because he thought that he'd be investigating the poaching of big exotic animals, like, of course, bears, or elephants, or jungle cats. He never knew there was a market for dead butterflies, but it turns out that there is, and it's a huge trade. Rare pinned and mounted butterflies, including endangered and protected ones. Those trade for small fortunes in that quaint little corner of the black market. So, Special Agent Newcomer has gotten a tip that one of the world's most notorious butterfly dealers, the, quote, "Indiana Jones of butterflies."
1:00:28 Georgia Hardstark? Come on. He gave that to himself, for sure.
1:00:32 Karen Kilgariff? No, the whole butterfly community labeled him. They got together on a conference call, and they said, "We're naming this motherfucker." The Indiana Jones of butterflies has a booth at the bug fair this year, and along with the legal specimens that he will have on sale, there may be some illegal insect contraband available for his most trusted patrons. For years, this smuggler has evaded authorities in the illegal bug and insect trade, but now Special Agent Newcomer is on the case, and he's determined to bring this entire dirty, yet incandescently beautiful enterprise downtown to Chinatown.
1:01:17 Karen Kilgariff? This is the story of Special Agent Ed Newcomer's investigation into butterfly trafficker, Yoshi Kojima.
1:01:27 Karen Kilgariff? So, this main sources used in this story today are the book Winged Obsession: The Pursuit of the World's Most Notorious Butterfly Smuggler.
1:01:36 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, a whole book.
1:01:37 Karen Kilgariff? By Jessica Speert.
1:01:39 Georgia Hardstark? Great.
1:01:39 Karen Kilgariff? She wrote a whole book on it. Also, episode 305 of my favorite podcast Criminal.
1:01:48 Georgia Hardstark? Of course.
1:01:49 Karen Kilgariff? Entitled The Butterfly Smuggler. And Ed Newcomer's own podcast series. Special Agent Ed Newcomer has a podcast and it's called Nature's Secret Service. Okay.
1:02:01 Georgia Hardstark? Everyone's got a podcast these days. The Nature Guy.
1:02:05 Karen Kilgariff? And they're like, oh, oh yeah. And this one big butterfly has a podcast too. Please listen to her side of the story. Okay.
1:02:15 Karen Kilgariff? So, we're back at the 17th Annual Bug Fair. Agent, Special Agent Newcomer is not just on the case. First of all, he's a rookie. This is the first case, so it's, his name is literal.
1:02:27 Georgia Hardstark? Newcomer.
1:02:28 Karen Kilgariff? He's a newcomer. He's not just on the case, he's working, he's in, sorry, left the page.
1:02:37 Georgia Hardstark? Undercover?
1:02:38 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, he's undercover. Thank you so much. God damn it.
1:02:41 Georgia Hardstark? I can't believe I got that.
1:02:42 Karen Kilgariff? I was, I just wanted to say in disguise so badly. And I'm like, that's not the correct term for the police.
1:02:48 Georgia Hardstark? He's got a trench coat on, eyeglasses.
1:02:51 Karen Kilgariff? He's got a weird metal arm that comes out and grabs a bug, takes it back.
1:02:55 Georgia Hardstark? Inspector Gadget. The Inspector Gadget of the butterfly world.
1:03:01 Karen Kilgariff? So, Ed is there to get eyes on 53-year-old Yoshi Kojima, but he is not working alone. He also has a wired informant in the crowd today who Ed hopes will catch Yoshi saying something damning on tape. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Agency has had Yoshi on their radar for years, so Ed already knows a little bit about him. He knows Yoshi has homes in both Kyoto and Los Angeles. He's always traveling back and forth between them. He knows that in the decade or so that Yoshi's been legally active in this trade. He is Also been suspected of some very unethical and outright illegal practices.
1:03:41 Karen Kilgariff? For example, it's believed that Yoshi harvested butterfly species in such huge numbers in the Sierra Nevada mountains that experts were afraid entire local populations of butterflies were wiped out.
1:03:57 Georgia Hardstark? Dude, chill out.
1:03:59 Karen Kilgariff? But he just loves them so much. How big is that net, for real? He's also suspected of targeting very rare protected butterflies in national parks around the US. But there's never been a serious enough investigation to lead into any criminal charges for it. But that's all gonna change at the 2003 bug fair. Right?
1:04:23 Georgia Hardstark? What a fun job. Like, why didn't they tell you out of high school that you could walk around a bug fair in disguise as your job? Like, I maybe would've gone to college.
1:04:32 Karen Kilgariff? Yes. Instead of just, "Oh, study, homework, no science." It's like, no.
1:04:37 Georgia Hardstark? Communications? No.
1:04:39 Karen Kilgariff? No, no thanks.
1:04:40 Georgia Hardstark? I wouldn't fucking find a bug thief.
1:04:41 Karen Kilgariff? How about bug disguises? How about the real shit? How about wired informants? Or the first time I read that, I was like, was that wired informant like just a very curious second grader that was like, "What kind of insect do you have?" And then it's like, "Got you, motherfucker." We'll get to that part. Okay, so. Special Agent Newcomer will later be quoted as saying, quote, "When you arrest these people and they end up in front of a judge, they tell the judge, 'I'm an animal lover. I just got a little carried away, and nothing pisses me off more.'"
1:05:19 Georgia Hardstark? Ooh.
1:05:20 Karen Kilgariff? They are not animal lovers. They are either in it for the money, or they're in it for the obsession of collecting and owning and having and controlling.
1:05:28 Georgia Hardstark? Whoa, he's hard-boiled.
1:05:30 Karen Kilgariff? Yes. This is his first case and he's fucking had it.
1:05:36 Karen Kilgariff? It's like, you love a man with passion, but butterfly passion? Oh my god. So, Special Agent Newcomer is strolling through the bug fair. Incognito.
1:05:47 Georgia Hardstark? Do do do.
1:05:48 Karen Kilgariff? Right, whistling real loud. Because this is his first case.
1:05:53 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
1:05:54 Karen Kilgariff? He's wearing his dockers and his braided belt and a nice golf shirt. He's not a cop. He's not a cop.
1:06:03 Karen Kilgariff? And then he finally gets... Oh, sorry, I think we have a picture of Ed Newcomer, don't we?
1:06:07 Georgia Hardstark? That's sweet.
1:06:08 Karen Kilgariff? Oh! Yes!
1:06:11 Georgia Hardstark? What a hero.
1:06:12 Karen Kilgariff? Right? And then Ed finally gets a visual of his target. It's Yoshi, he's at his booth. And Ed doesn't think he looks particularly criminal. No, he doesn't.
1:06:24 Georgia Hardstark? No, he's a dad, he's got a dad hat on.
1:06:26 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:06:27 Georgia Hardstark? Hawaiian shirt.
1:06:28 Karen Kilgariff? He's just kind of a party dad.
1:06:29 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, with a couple bugs.
1:06:32 Karen Kilgariff? He loves bugs?
1:06:33 Georgia Hardstark? Every, oh, it's all above table, above the table?
1:06:36 Karen Kilgariff? Above, above a very, very low table.
1:06:40 Karen Kilgariff? Okay. So, he gets his, he sees, he puts eyes on, he realizes who he's dealing with. What are you laughing about?
1:06:47 Georgia Hardstark? Puts eyes on.
1:06:50 Karen Kilgariff? Does anyone have eyes on?
1:06:53 Karen Kilgariff? So, uh, as, as author Jessica Speer reports, Yoshi's staple outfit consists of a fanny pack, loose khaki pants, and either a Hawaiian shirt or a polo shirt, and this is specifically, usually stained. Ouch! Ouch!
1:07:13 Georgia Hardstark? I mean, that, I would be like, that's a cop, for sure, you know? Dressing like a cop, a narc.
1:07:19 Karen Kilgariff? But also, it's just so rough for your, like, known outfit to include the staining.
1:07:23 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:07:24 Karen Kilgariff? It's just like, she usually wore black pants, black shirt, and a ton of white dog hair. It's just like, you didn't have to say the last part about me. You didn't have to say it. God damn it.
1:07:37 Karen Kilgariff? She's always asking for a lint roller for some reason.
1:07:40 Georgia Hardstark? It's a subtle dig, for sure.
1:07:41 Karen Kilgariff? It hurts.
1:07:42 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:07:43 Karen Kilgariff? Just like a stain. So, um, Special Agent Newcomer has a visual on the enemy. He keeps his distance, he plays it cool on the sidelines, but he watches intently as his informant approaches Yoshi's booth. Pay me, thurk!
1:08:00 Georgia Hardstark? Also, how subtle is this intent watch? Because I bet he's not good yet at it.
1:08:04 Karen Kilgariff? And just like pacing back and forth, rubbing his chin.
1:08:08 Georgia Hardstark? The only guy sweating at the bug fair.
1:08:11 Karen Kilgariff? I just love bugs. Sorry, dude. I just love bugs.
1:08:16 Karen Kilgariff? So Ed will say about the informant, "I saw him go talk to Yoshi a few times, but every time I would check in with the informant, he would say, 'He won't talk to me.' 'He won't talk to me. He just won't say anything.'" And then the informant just got more and more jittery. It definitely was not going well. So I decided, what the hell, I'm gonna go talk to this guy. End quote. So Special Agent is like, "Out of my way, eight-year-old. I'm going to take care of this." So Newcomer isn't exactly prepared for this moment. He's new to the case. He hasn't had the opportunity to learn much about butterflies, but he's quick on his feet. He strolls up to the booth and introduces himself as Ted Nelson.
1:08:56 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
1:08:57 Karen Kilgariff? Yet, someone's been taking UCB classes. Ted Nelson, you say?
1:09:04 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, he then says he's a recently retired businessman who sold off his father's company and now has some money to burn, and he has a new fascination with rare insects. You know, that casual conversation you make at the bug fair.
1:09:19 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, Ed looks through Yoshi's display cases, all legal insects that are there to buy and sell. Um, he pretends to be amazed, and this feeds Yoshi's ego so well that he can't help but show Ted Nelson something that he's been keeping in the back. So to speak, it is a massive, six-inch-horned Dynastony beetle. Living. A living. Look at it. Look at it.
1:09:50 Karen Kilgariff? Also known as the rhinoceros beetle.
1:09:55 Karen Kilgariff? So.
1:09:57 Georgia Hardstark? What if that was on your shoulder when you looked over?
1:10:00 Karen Kilgariff? You'd be like, "What is it? What do you have to tell me?" So, because it said, Maren wrote in here that this was a six-inch beetle, I immediately turned and Googled, "What is six inches long?"
1:10:14 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
1:10:16 Karen Kilgariff? It's not a dick joke. It's so lame of you. And cheap of you. It's not.
1:10:29 Karen Kilgariff? The first thing that came up in AI, we're fucked. I mean, we are fucked beyond belief. I don't have to tell you guys that. This is, instead of a dick joke, it's just about how fucked we are with AI. Because here's what the AI answer I got. There's a quad of, like, four pictures that say, "Common things that are six inches long." And no joke, the first picture is a baseball. It's a baseball. It's a baseball.
1:10:58 Georgia Hardstark? That's not right.
1:10:59 Karen Kilgariff? That's the first fucking picture. An American baseball.
1:11:07 Karen Kilgariff? And then it says under that quote, "Items around six inches long include the width of a dollar bill." The width of a dollar bill. There are companies using AI to build things like airplanes and rockets and engines and shit like that.
1:11:28 Karen Kilgariff? The width of a dollar bill is six inches.
1:11:34 Georgia Hardstark? Even we know that's not right.
1:11:37 Georgia Hardstark? And we didn't go to college.
1:11:38 Karen Kilgariff? Even math dipshits like ourselves.
1:11:43 Karen Kilgariff? It literally says, "The width of a dollar bill, some pens, certain chef's knives, and half a standard 12-inch ruler. Thanks so much." Thank you. Thank you.
1:11:57 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
1:11:57 Karen Kilgariff? Great. Now I know exactly what I'm dealing with.
1:12:01 Georgia Hardstark? That was just rude.
1:12:05 Karen Kilgariff? A baseball.
1:12:07 Georgia Hardstark? Some chef knives.
1:12:09 Karen Kilgariff? Just to give you a sense.
1:12:09 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, six inch chef knives.
1:12:11 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
1:12:11 Georgia Hardstark? Not some chef.
1:12:12 Karen Kilgariff? Some. Too bad there's ones that are this long. Some pens.
1:12:20 Karen Kilgariff? But not those ones you get when you're a tourist that have their real long.
1:12:23 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
1:12:24 Karen Kilgariff? Because you went to New York City, the Big Apple.
1:12:26 Georgia Hardstark? And you turn it upside down and she's naked.
1:12:30 Karen Kilgariff? There's your six inches, right there. You made me do that. You forced me to do it. I don't want to work blue. You want me to.
1:12:41 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, we're done with that part. Never forget the six inch rhinoceros beetle.
1:12:46 Georgia Hardstark? I never will.
1:12:48 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, so Special Agent Newcomer suspects that this dollar bill wide beetle was smuggled into the US from its native South America, almost certainly without the necessary permits, but that's a minor violation of US Department of Agriculture rules, so Ed doesn't think that that will be enough to take down a smuggler on the level of Yoshi, who is rumored to trade in much, much rarer, more highly protected specimens. But Yoshi's showing Ed this beetle is huge for this investigation because it shows that they have, that Yoshi has now made a connection with aspiring collector Ted Nelson. So, um, so Ted Nelson thanks Yoshi for his time, does a casual loop around the bug fair.
1:13:32 Georgia Hardstark? Do do do.
1:13:32 Karen Kilgariff? Do do do do do.
1:13:36 Karen Kilgariff? And then, when it's almost closing time, circles back to Yoshi's booth, only to find Yoshi waiting there with a box which he presents to his new friend Ted Nelson. And inside, there are 13 dead, pinned, and mounted butterflies, which Yoshi says are to quote, "start your collection."
1:13:54 Georgia Hardstark? Whoa.
1:13:55 Karen Kilgariff? There you go.
1:13:56 Georgia Hardstark? It's so insulting to do that in a natural history museum. Like, go to a cafe. You know what I mean? It's like double bad.
1:14:03 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
1:14:04 Georgia Hardstark? It's pretty shitty.
1:14:05 Karen Kilgariff? So now, um, Special Agent Newcomer knows for sure he has made a connection, and even better, Yoshi wrote his email address inside that box, and so Ed now has a direct line to him, to one of the biggest insect smugglers that they know about. So, um, Ed still plays it cool. He doesn't reach out to Yoshi right away.
1:14:25 Georgia Hardstark? Oh.
1:14:26 Karen Kilgariff? Right?
1:14:26 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:14:27 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, that's how you do it. You have to wait five days.
1:14:30 Georgia Hardstark? Five?
1:14:31 Karen Kilgariff? I don't know.
1:14:33 Karen Kilgariff? In smuggling, you have to wait five days.
1:14:35 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, right.
1:14:36 Karen Kilgariff? For quarantine. Okay, so then he doesn't reach out to him right away. He goes and listens to the recordings that the informant captured. And in them, Yoshi isn't revealing much, although there is one bombshell. Ed listens as Yoshi brags about how at the airport, he pretends to work for National Geographic and tells customs agents that he provides bugs for their documentaries. They're all cast. It's like, I had auditions. This rhinocerous beetle was incredible. Really got that it factor. Yoshi tells the informant, this lie works like a charm and the airport officials usually let him go without scrutinizing his collection.
1:15:18 Karen Kilgariff? And then he also brags about outsmarting US fish and wildlife investigators. And that's the part where Special Agent Newcomer just slides his headphones off and Ed's hails and then he goes, now it's personal.
1:15:36 Karen Kilgariff? This is for my movie, Special Agent Ed Newcomer. Nobody gets to steal it. Okay. So he sits tight for about a week and then, acting as Ted Nelson, he sends Yoshi an email asking for help identifying some of the butterflies Yoshi gave him as a gift. The men exchange some emails, then they talk on the phone. And then Yoshi sets up an in-person meeting at the Starbucks near the intersection of Venice and Robertson in Los Angeles.
1:16:04 Georgia Hardstark? They took my advice and went to a cafe.
1:16:06 Karen Kilgariff? That's right.
1:16:07 Georgia Hardstark? That's weird.
1:16:08 Karen Kilgariff? They literally... What if this whole thing just turns into you dictating what the story is? This is the newest version of AI. It's called self-podcasting. So this is that Starbucks on Venice and Robertson that has very little parking. It's almost like a Trader Joe's in that way. The vibe is off there.
1:16:29 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
1:16:31 Karen Kilgariff? So Ed is incredibly nervous for this meeting because he's wearing a wire this time. And he's doing everything that he can not to blow his cover. He needs to say all the right things that Ted Nelson would say, while simultaneously pushing for, you know, more information and incriminating information, but not so hard that Yoshi would become suspicious. But Yoshi immediately starts asking a ton of questions, and they're really prying questions. And they seem to be geared at sussing out whether or not Ted Nelson is a cop. Ed has prepared for this, though. He's got his full Ted Nelson backstory memorized, and he even has a Ted Nelson Costco card in his wallet,
1:17:16 Karen Kilgariff? just in case anybody looks in there.
1:17:20 Georgia Hardstark? You gotta get the Costco card.
1:17:23 Karen Kilgariff? You want to prove something?
1:17:24 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:17:25 Karen Kilgariff? I actually have done that, though. When you go like, "I don't have my license."
1:17:28 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, right.
1:17:29 Karen Kilgariff? Just like, "Well, I do have this Costco card, is that..." "I'm a gold member." "Will that get me through security?" Okay. So Ed, newcomer, will later say about this meetup, quote, "I was sweating like crazy."
1:17:46 Georgia Hardstark? Real chill. That's the thing you don't want to do, is sweat like crazy.
1:17:50 Karen Kilgariff? Sweat while wearing a wire.
1:17:51 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:17:52 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. But in the end, Yoshi seems to buy... That was the whole quote, by the way. I just thought that was good, to put that in there. In the end, Yoshi seems to buy Ted Nelson's whole story and offers to teach him all about identifying, mounting, and collecting rare butterflies, so that the two of them can get into business together. It's a lucrative business. Yoshi claims that he nets anywhere between $800 and $10,000 per butterfly, depending on how rare they are.
1:18:23 Georgia Hardstark? Damn.
1:18:24 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
1:18:26 Karen Kilgariff? So Ed suspects Yoshi sees his new friend Ted Nelson as a useful fall guy in this very high-stakes game of illegal insect trading. So because the two men come up with this arrangement where Ted will post bugs and butterflies for sale on eBay, and Yoshi will act as the supplier, which also enables Yoshi to keep his hands clean.
1:18:49 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
1:18:50 Karen Kilgariff? And it'll all go on Ted if the shit goes down.
1:18:55 Karen Kilgariff? So Ed tries to cement this relationship, but it's clear that Yoshi's trust is fragile. Because in one of their earlier meetings, Yoshi walks Ted out to his car, but then circles the car completely, looking into the windows and checking the license plate and even examining the front grille.
1:19:12 Georgia Hardstark? Well, it's not gonna say his real name on it.
1:19:14 Karen Kilgariff? And he's like, "What if, what if it's down here?"
1:19:16 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. Where do you put your name on your car?
1:19:20 Karen Kilgariff? Way down under the front.
1:19:21 Georgia Hardstark? That's right.
1:19:22 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. Just put my initials up under there.
1:19:28 Karen Kilgariff? So Ed remembers, quote, "It would have been very unnatural for me not to have been like, 'What the hell are you doing?'" That's the whole quote. I did it again. Sorry, that one's too short. Sorry. So he asks Yoshi what's going on. Yoshi says he's looking for cameras, a police gun, or any other sign that Ted Nelson is working undercover. Ed laughs it off, but he can't deny that Yoshi is clearly a serious dealer. So soon after this, Yoshi returns to Japan, but he calls, emails, and Skypes, because it's 2003, with Ted Nelson regularly. And on these calls, he feeds Ed's ongoing investigation by bragging about carrying an American passport
1:20:13 Karen Kilgariff? under a name that's not his own. He's just chit-chatting and incriminating the fuck out of himself, left and right. He shares details on how he actually ships his butterflies to buyers, and he even boasts about how he has a network of collectors all around the world who capture specimens locally and send them to him.
1:20:33 Georgia Hardstark? Dude, shut up. Keep your mouth shut.
1:20:35 Karen Kilgariff? No, he can't.
1:20:36 Georgia Hardstark? Just like that.
1:20:36 Karen Kilgariff? He's just, he's having a great time. He even shares tips with Ted Nelson on how to avoid getting nabbed by the US Fish and Wildlife Agents.
1:20:47 Karen Kilgariff? But months are going by and Yoshi hasn't sent Ted any endangered butterflies, which means Ed doesn't have any kind of evidence or any of the evidence that he needs. So he tries to push things along and build goodwill by posting flattering comments about Yoshi on various bug trading websites. And Ed thinks this will make it look like... This is good policing.
1:21:13 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:21:13 Karen Kilgariff? He'll make it look like he's helping out Yoshi's business, because then that'll be good for his business. But actually it backfires and Yoshi cuts Ted off because he thinks the attention is going to put the heat on both of them.
1:21:26 Georgia Hardstark? Right, and then connect them online.
1:21:29 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, on bug websites.
1:21:31 Georgia Hardstark? On all those.
1:21:32 Karen Kilgariff? Where it's literally only that eight-year-old informant and four of his friends. So now Ed tries to reel Yoshi back in by creating fake eBay listings and having his Fish and Wildlife Service colleagues bid on them, hoping Yoshi will feel like he's missing out on all the sales Ted Nelson is doing solo.
1:21:50 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, that's smart.
1:21:51 Karen Kilgariff? Right, FOMO.
1:21:54 Karen Kilgariff? Not only does Yoshi not take the bait, he sees Ted's listings as direct and hostile competition, and he gets so angry that he reports Ted Nelson as a potential smuggler to the US Fish and Wildlife Service.
1:22:10 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
1:22:11 Karen Kilgariff? Yep. It's all one big circle.
1:22:16 Karen Kilgariff? So now Special Agent Newcomer, who's become known around the office as the Butterfly Agent.
1:22:23 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, so mad.
1:22:24 Karen Kilgariff? Feels like his case has just imploded, because as anyone who deals in the illegal insect trade knows, many of us do, once someone gets reported to the USFAWS, I'm assuming that's the initials, the assumption is that an agent will then reach out and either bust them or try to flip them as an informant, which means that the extremely cautious Yoshi won't come anywhere near his fake friend Ted Nelson now.
1:22:53 Georgia Hardstark? Right, oops.
1:22:54 Karen Kilgariff? So Ed's bummed, but he is not going to give up completely. Instead, he reluctantly sets this butterfly case aside, and he takes on a new case. He grows a handlebar mustache, and he goes undercover as a guy that gambles with domesticated pigeons.
1:23:12 Georgia Hardstark? What?
1:23:15 Karen Kilgariff? You gotta move on. You just gotta move on.
1:23:17 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, hold on. Are the gamblers the pigeons?
1:23:20 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
1:23:20 Georgia Hardstark? Are the pigeons the monetary? I don't understand.
1:23:24 Karen Kilgariff? Come on. Box cars, baby.
1:23:27 Georgia Hardstark? Little hat on.
1:23:28 Karen Kilgariff? That was supposed to be a pigeon sound, but I got excited.
1:23:33 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
1:23:34 Karen Kilgariff? Got a handlebar mustache.
1:23:36 Georgia Hardstark? You gotta have the handlebar mustache to be believed in the pigeon game.
1:23:39 Karen Kilgariff? People are like, "You are not here to bet on birds." Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't see your mustache. Yes, you are. Yes, you are. Uh...it's basically The Departed with animals at this point. So then a year later in 2006, it's time for the L.A. Bug Fair again. Eighteenth Annual.
1:24:00 Karen Kilgariff? That was the theme song. And Ed hears that Yoshi is gonna be back in L.A. again, so he remembers thinking, quote, "Heck, we gotta give it one more try." Heck. Oh, sorry, that's not the whole thing. Here's the whole quote. "Heck, we gotta give it one more try, right? We're gonna give it our all." End quote.
1:24:20 Karen Kilgariff? Heck, yeah, man. Heck, yeah. So this year, Ed's plan is very simple. He's just gonna, quote, "bump into Yoshi at the bug fair as Ted Nelson." And then when he does, and this really happens, Yoshi looks nervous, because again, he not only turned Ted Nelson into the authorities, but he also is worried probably that Ted is now an informant himself.
1:24:43 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
1:24:44 Karen Kilgariff? But Ed doesn't miss a beat. He tells Yoshi, "It's great to see him," and that he really owes him because some, quote, "asshole turned him into the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service." Agents even got a search warrant for his house, but thanks to Yoshi's advice, he'd already hidden everything incriminating, and the investigators walked away empty-handed. Ed later remembers, quote, "Yoshi's whole demeanor changed instantly. He was so thrilled that he had given me advice that helped me." End quote. So Yoshi asks Ted to lunch, and there he quizzes him on where he's been getting his butterflies lately. Ed explains, lying, that he now has a German supplier,
1:25:26 Karen Kilgariff? but that he's not happy with the condition of the butterflies he's been receiving. They often arrive with damaged wings and antenna.
1:25:34 Georgia Hardstark? Can't have that.
1:25:35 Karen Kilgariff? It's just so weird.
1:25:38 Karen Kilgariff? It's just so weird. So Yoshi offers to step in and work with Ted once again. They make plans to Skype when Yoshi's back in Japan. They're like, "Let's make plans for you to see a move, a picture that moves every four seconds." Of me like, "Ah, no, in, bon, owner."
1:26:03 Karen Kilgariff? And we are back. So Ted can check out his stock and then they can go from there. So soon, these two men fall back into constant communication. Yoshi offers to supply Ted with all the, all kinds of rare butterflies. He claims to have access to some Queen Alexandra's bird wings. Those are the largest butterflies on earth.
1:26:28 Georgia Hardstark? Shut up.
1:26:29 Karen Kilgariff? That's right.
1:26:30 Georgia Hardstark? Six, bigger than six inches?
1:26:31 Karen Kilgariff? They're... The wingspan is a foot. It's two rhinoceros beetles wide.
1:26:38 Georgia Hardstark? No, no, no, no, not all.
1:26:40 Karen Kilgariff? A foot wide, yes. They're native to Papua New Guinea and that's the last fact I have about them.
1:26:49 Karen Kilgariff? No, sorry, I have one more. They're so big that when these butterflies fly, they're often mistaken for birds.
1:26:57 Karen Kilgariff? But...
1:26:59 Karen Kilgariff? They're also one of the rarest butterflies in the world, so they're on the endangered species list.
1:27:04 Georgia Hardstark? Sure.
1:27:05 Karen Kilgariff? And this makes capturing and selling them highly illegal. The Associated Press reports, quote, "They're as protected as a snow leopard."
1:27:13 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, wow.
1:27:14 Karen Kilgariff? Right?
1:27:16 Georgia Hardstark? Who would you rather run into? In the jungle?
1:27:20 Karen Kilgariff? What would be great is if the bird wing butterfly landed on your head and then it looked like a hat.
1:27:25 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my god, but...
1:27:27 Karen Kilgariff? Very, so modern.
1:27:28 Georgia Hardstark? So modern.
1:27:31 Georgia Hardstark? What?
1:27:31 Karen Kilgariff? If there's any haberdashers in the audience tonight, I...
1:27:36 Karen Kilgariff? I have a copyright on that idea. But I'll never make it, but you should. Then I'll sue you.
1:27:46 Karen Kilgariff? A single mounted Queen Alexandria's birdwing butterfly sells for thousands of dollars on the black market. So, obviously Yoshi now fully trusts Ted Nelson because over the next two months, he express mails him around forty different butterflies, including two Queen Alexandria's birdwings. And those cost him eighty-five hundred dollars. And how much is that in today's money?
1:28:15 Georgia Hardstark? Two thousand six?
1:28:16 Karen Kilgariff? Two thou-- yes.
1:28:17 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, and eighty-- twelve.
1:28:20 Karen Kilgariff? Fourteen thousand dollars. So close.
1:28:23 Georgia Hardstark? It's never satisfying.
1:28:24 Karen Kilgariff? You're getting a little bit of applause for being kind of close.
1:28:27 Georgia Hardstark? At least I'm not-- wasn't laughed at this time because I have been laughed at by many audiences.
1:28:32 Karen Kilgariff? Sometimes we go in the complete opposite direction.
1:28:35 Georgia Hardstark? Sometimes we go lower. Doesn't make sense.
1:28:38 Karen Kilgariff? Lower. Ha! We should do just a whole, like, everybody vote.
1:28:43 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, no.
1:28:44 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. Because this show isn't long enough. All right, so, the butterflies in total are all forty, cost undercover Ed somewhere between four-- oh, sorry, no, fourteen-- the dash is for something else. They costed fourteen thousand dollars, which is twenty-two thousand dollars in today's money.
1:29:05 Georgia Hardstark? Thank you.
1:29:06 Karen Kilgariff? You're welcome. So, now Ed finally has the concrete evidence he needs for his investigation. He has those butterflies, he has endless recordings and Skype conversations and phone calls that outline in rich detail indisputable criminal activity. But Yoshi's in Japan, and to make an arrest, of course, Ed needs Yoshi to be on US soil. So he has a plan. It finally dawns on him that, quote, and this is the part where the story changes for me, and I don't like it anymore, and gets very sad. Because it finally dawns on Ed Newcomer that, quote, "Sometime during those calls, I realized Yoshi's got some type of an attraction toward me."
1:29:47 Karen Kilgariff? So at first, he simply brushed off Yoshi's advances, but now he decides he's gonna use them. Ed secures an arrest warrant without Yoshi knowing, and then, as Ted Nelson, he hints that the two of them should go on a date when Yoshi's back in California.
1:30:04 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, man.
1:30:05 Karen Kilgariff? And Yoshi takes the bait. So there was a little bit of, like, making a friend and talking about a mutual interest. "Oh, my God, I love dead bugs, too. This is magical." But it's a fucking... It's a special agent in disguise.
1:30:21 Georgia Hardstark? No, what a bummer.
1:30:23 Karen Kilgariff? It gets worse. On July 31, 2006, three years after Ed and Yoshi first crossed paths at the 2003 bug fair, Yoshi flies into Los Angeles and is immediately arrested on federal wildlife smuggling charges.
1:30:38 Karen Kilgariff? Well, it gets more heartbreaking, because hours later, while he's in custody, Yoshi's eyes light up when he sees Ted Nelson arriving to bail him out of jail.
1:30:48 Georgia Hardstark? No.
1:30:49 Karen Kilgariff? But, in fact, it is Special Agent Ed Newcomer.
1:30:53 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, took his mustache off.
1:30:55 Karen Kilgariff? He's like, "Grip. And these sideburns are fake, too, motherfucker." Ed says of this, quote, "And then he looked down and he saw the Special Agent badge attached to my belt right by my holster." He says, "Have you been with fish and wildlife the whole time I've known you?" He kinda put his head down. He didn't say anything else. He never asked me any questions about how it all happened. It was weird. We had this relationship, and then I arrested him, and the relationship was over." End quote.
1:31:31 Georgia Hardstark? That's sad.
1:31:32 Karen Kilgariff? It sucks.
1:31:36 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:31:37 Karen Kilgariff? Aside from the butterflies and the wildlife, I know guys that have done shit like this. Separate from the insects.
1:31:44 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
1:31:44 Karen Kilgariff? Like, what?
1:31:46 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:31:46 Karen Kilgariff? I didn't realize. I just Skype with you every night.
1:31:48 Georgia Hardstark? I have a girlfriend. What are you talking about?
1:31:51 Karen Kilgariff? What?
1:31:53 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, we'll talk about that later.
1:31:56 Karen Kilgariff? In the end, Yoshi Kojima pleads guilty to 17 counts of selling and smuggling endangered species and is sentenced to 21 months in prison. And he's fined almost $39,000, which Ed says has yet to be paid. And when he's released in 2008, Yoshi is sent back to Japan. It seems that Yoshi has never spoken publicly about his arrest or dealings in the butterfly smuggling business. But when Ed Newcomer is interviewed by our friend Phoebe Judge on Criminal, he tells her that in 2015, he busts a 25-year-old smuggler at LAX who, among many other species, is carrying bird-winged butterflies in his suitcase.
1:32:39 Georgia Hardstark? Ooh.
1:32:40 Karen Kilgariff? And Ed says, quote, "Out of nowhere, he goes, 'Hey, have you heard of Yoshi Kojima?'" And I said, "Yeah, I've heard of Yoshi." And he goes, "He's my mentor."
1:32:52 Karen Kilgariff? Fuck you! Double bird into your face.
1:32:57 Karen Kilgariff? As he gets zip-tied.
1:33:02 Karen Kilgariff? That's bug smuggling, man. You did not have to pretend it was love. It was just bug smuggling.
1:33:08 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:33:09 Karen Kilgariff? This is Ed Newcomer's very first case as a U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service investigator, so maybe we can forgive his ungodly transgression against the human heart. Fast forward two decades. Now it's 2021. Special Agent Ed Newcomer is about to retire when he is handed one last assignment.
1:33:29 Georgia Hardstark? Did you say fast forward two decades? It's 2021.
1:33:32 Karen Kilgariff? Don't you dare confront my map. Did I?
1:33:44 Karen Kilgariff? Listen. Why do we care about numbers now?
1:33:47 Georgia Hardstark? We don't. I don't care. I love it.
1:33:52 Karen Kilgariff? Let's fast forward two decades minus four years. Plus one year, I think. Sorry. Who's good at math?
1:34:01 Karen Kilgariff? So he's handed this final case, which, and then in my movie, Special Agent Ed Newcomer, gets slapped down on his desk, and then he picks it up and he opens it, and then he takes some headphones off. And then he exhales and he says, "I'm too old for this shit."
1:34:22 Karen Kilgariff? And then we get sued by Danny Glover.
1:34:26 Karen Kilgariff? So this is a case that takes place in Alpine, California, where a... Yes. So you guys, you already know about this story. A construction worker named Eddie shows up to work one day and discovers a dog abandoned in a crate in the parking lot. But when he goes to check if the dog's okay, he looks inside and it's a baby Jaguar.
1:34:47 Georgia Hardstark? What?
1:34:49 Karen Kilgariff? You know, Alpine shit.
1:34:53 Karen Kilgariff? A six-week-old Alpine, uh, sorry, Jaguar cub. Alpine-born-and-bred Jaguar cub.
1:35:02 Georgia Hardstark? Aw, man, what a find. Like, I never find anything good. So good.
1:35:08 Karen Kilgariff? When am I gonna be on the Jaguar distribution system?
1:35:11 Georgia Hardstark? Yes, exactly. Vince can't say no if I accidentally stumble upon it.
1:35:15 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, look.
1:35:16 Georgia Hardstark? It's ours now.
1:35:17 Karen Kilgariff? We found a baby Jaguar. We keep a baby Jaguar.
1:35:22 Karen Kilgariff? So it turns out someone left this baby Jaguar in this exact spot, hoping that the nearby animal sanctuary, lions, tigers, and bears...
1:35:34 Karen Kilgariff? Would come and find him and take him in, and that is exactly what happens. He's taken in, he's cleaned up, and they name him Eddie. Aww. And that's just a very cute, coincidental name. Because this is the last case Agent Ed Newcomer is ever going to work. And he takes it very seriously, as we know. He says about this case, quote, "Whenever I had the chance to work on a case that involved live wildlife, particularly babies, I tried to make it a priority. So this was a case I was going to close before I retired, no question." Hmm. So, end quote. So Ed tracks down the dealer who first sold Eddie the baby jaguar. As it turns out, she did it through her OnlyFans account.
1:36:19 Karen Kilgariff? What? I didn't know they did that. You can, and you should, and fucking power to all women everywhere. So, look, get an OnlyFans account, sell illegal animals, exotic endangered animals on them. Get your bag, girl, do what you gotta do. Just make sure you're ahead of the game, as Miss Elliot likes to say. In 2022, this woman is arrested and pleads guilty to one felony count of trafficking an endangered species under the Endangered Species Act. In California, you can be fined up to $500,000 for this. Shit. And given between five and 20 years jail time. Dude.
1:37:03 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, depending on the law, you break. But I did get that, those numbers from the AI answer on Google, so take it with a grain of salt. Really, man. The good news is Eddie the Jaguar is living his best life at the Lions, Tigers, and Bears Sanctuary. Aww. Eddie! You're so cute. And with this case closed, Special Agent Ed Newcomer, who kickstarted his career by catching the Indiana Jones of butterflies, closes it by bringing justice to a baby jaguar. And that is the story of Special Agent Ed Newcomer's crusade to bring down butterfly smuggler Yoshi Kojo. Wow.
1:37:46 Karen Kilgariff? Vince, do we have time for a hometown? Yeah. Okay. Oh, here's my husband Vince A. Pearl.
1:37:59 Speaker 05 One now.
1:38:02 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:38:04 Speaker 05 What's up, what's up?
1:38:05 Karen Kilgariff? Vince Avril, ladies and gentlemen.
1:38:10 Speaker 05 That's what I'm talking about.
1:38:12 Georgia Hardstark? The Travis Kelce of podcasting.
1:38:14 Karen Kilgariff? That's right.
1:38:17 Speaker 05 Uh, with that, I will stand right over there.
1:38:20 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
1:38:21 Speaker 05 So, choose wisely.
1:38:22 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
1:38:23 Georgia Hardstark? Choose wisely, thank you. Oh, you're gonna choose this time.
1:38:26 Karen Kilgariff? So, we've got some rules.
1:38:27 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, yeah.
1:38:27 Karen Kilgariff? You can keep doing that, but we've got some rules to tell you, and these are important. Um, and I think I'm gonna move this rule up to number one. If you're too drunk to tell your story, just write it in and then say in the, in the, uh, subject line, "I was too drunk to tell my story in San Diego, but I'd love for you to read it on the minisode, cuz we'll fucking do it."
1:38:50 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:38:51 Karen Kilgariff? But if you're drunk, shut the fuck up. Because there's a bunch of people who have really well rehearsed stories and hometowns and they know, they got it going on. Okay, also, your story has to have a beginning, middle, and end, and it needs to be local. "San Diego would be beautiful." Uh, I don't know.
1:39:12 Georgia Hardstark? Southern California.
1:39:13 Karen Kilgariff? SoCal's okay. Other than that, don't push it. Because, and we're just telling you that as your friends, the audience will absolutely attack you and tear you apart outside. And now it is time for hometown.
1:39:26 Georgia Hardstark? You're picking this time. Remember? I gave it up.
1:39:29 Karen Kilgariff? Did you really?
1:39:30 Georgia Hardstark? I gave it up.
1:39:31 Karen Kilgariff? Did you officially give it up?
1:39:32 Georgia Hardstark? I'm not fucking doing it anymore.
1:39:33 Karen Kilgariff? Mm-hmm. Well...
1:39:38 Karen Kilgariff? How about right down the center, right there?
1:39:40 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:39:41 Karen Kilgariff? The lone person.
1:39:42 Georgia Hardstark? Yes. Yes. Yes.
1:39:44 Karen Kilgariff? You're the only one. It's just you.
1:39:46 Georgia Hardstark? Go. Go, go, go to Vince.
1:39:56 Karen Kilgariff? Yes. This is the walk of the hometown teller. It takes a while, but it's worth it.
1:40:09 Karen Kilgariff? Just keep it moving, keep it moving.
1:40:13 Karen Kilgariff? Stand right over here. Oh, Jennifer's here, everyone.
1:40:19 Karen Kilgariff? It's Jennifer, everybody, Jennifer. Hold this, you can't have notes, stand here.
1:40:24 Speaker 06 I have notes, because I have notes.
1:40:25 Karen Kilgariff? You don't need notes.
1:40:26 Speaker 06 No, I'm old.
1:40:28 Karen Kilgariff? Hold your notes.
1:40:29 Speaker 06 I'm old.
1:40:29 Karen Kilgariff? You can do it.
1:40:31 Speaker 06 Okay, well, hang on a second.
1:40:32 Karen Kilgariff? Jennifer, where are you from?
1:40:34 Speaker 06 I am from San Diego, I live in San Marcos.
1:40:37 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, we like that.
1:40:38 Speaker 06 All right.
1:40:39 Karen Kilgariff? Great, great, great, okay.
1:40:41 Speaker 06 Sadly, this is not a San Marcos story.
1:40:43 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
1:40:44 Speaker 06 It is Southern California. I grew up in Upland, California. And this is a story of a young, sweet baby angel, who was taken at the age of seventeen in high school. I was a junior in 1984. She was a class of 1983. And she was lured by her friend's ex-boyfriend into a garage, where, her name is Anna, Anna Marie, I'm not going to give her last name. And she was lured in by a friend of her ex-boyfriend's
1:41:28 Speaker 06 into her garage, where the ex-boyfriend, who was also a senior in high school, strangled her with an extension cord. Very sad, so keep an eye on your girls, make sure they're not in bad relationships.
1:41:46 Speaker 06 She was buried three blocks from my home in what is now the 210 freeway that goes across 19th and Mountain in Upland. And after about four, five, six weeks, the guy that lured her into this felt guilty about the situation in that he was involved in and confessed to the police. Her body was exhumed and she was identified by her teeth. And I just, being the mother of a daughter, I can't even imagine what her parents went through. This happened in April of 83. She was supposed to graduate in June.
1:42:31 Speaker 06 Very sad.
1:42:33 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:42:33 Speaker 06 It's very unfortunate. He, the kid went to jail. I looked to figure out where he went. I, how long he served, I don't know. But I, I'm not going to share his name because, you know, they don't deserve it. But, um.
1:42:48 Karen Kilgariff? My God, amazing.
1:42:52 Speaker 06 But to Anna Marie, we still think of you. She was there ahead of me. I, she still think, thought of. A friend of mine did a blog about her. She's a writer and she did a big tribute to her, which was wonderful.
1:43:05 Karen Kilgariff? Nice.
1:43:05 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my God, thank you, Jennifer.
1:43:07 Karen Kilgariff? Beautiful. That's nice. Jennifer, everybody. Let's hear it for her.
1:43:15 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my God, like the best hug I've ever fucking had in my life. It's crazy.
1:43:19 Speaker 06 Thank you so much. I feel like I'm.
1:43:21 Karen Kilgariff? Thank you so much for being here. Great job.
1:43:27 Karen Kilgariff? San Diego, we've done it.
1:43:29 Georgia Hardstark? You guys, we made it.
1:43:30 Karen Kilgariff? We finally did it.
1:43:32 Georgia Hardstark? Thank you for coming out to see us after all these years off the road. This has been so amazing and special to see so many, so many of our friends on this tour. So thank you guys so much for coming and supporting us.
1:43:47 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, we've been here for, we've come to San Diego many a time on tour. We've always had an incredible time with you guys. It means the world that you show up and that you support this show. You guys have given us a dream life and we thank you so much from the bottom of our hearts for it. It's incredible.
1:44:08 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, thank you.
1:44:10 Karen Kilgariff? And it's because of you guys.
1:44:13 Karen Kilgariff? So, thank you so much. Thank you for creating the Murderino community, which is such a beautiful thing. It's a time in this country where we need community more than everything, and you guys have it with each other and for each other. And please use it, and please stay sexy. And don't get hurt. Thank you, San Diego. Thank you. Good to see you. Elvis, do you want a cookie? Ah.
1:44:46 Georgia Hardstark? This has been an Exactly Right production. Our senior producer is Molly Smith, and our associate producer is Tessa Hughes. Our editor is Aristotle Lasevedo. This episode was mixed by Leona Scolacci. Our researchers are Mira McGlashan and Ali Okun. Email your hometowns to [email protected] . And follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder. Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Goodbye.
1:45:17 Karen Kilgariff? Calling all amateur detectives and podcast obsessives.
1:45:21 Georgia Hardstark? Virgin Voyages' second true crime voyage sets sail March 20, 2027, for a five-night escape to Grand Turk and the Beach Club at Bimini.
1:45:29 Karen Kilgariff? As part of the On Air at Sea collection, this immersive sailing brings together fan favorite podcasts, including Disgrace Land, Buried Bones, and Wise Crack, for live recordings, behind-the-scenes access, exclusive meet and greets, and crime-themed programming that you won't find anywhere else.
1:45:45 Georgia Hardstark? All aboard our award-winning, kid-free ships.
1:45:48 Karen Kilgariff? Head over to virginvoyages.com/truecrime to secure your spot.
1:45:52 Georgia Hardstark? Goodbye.
1:45:54 Speaker 00 Quick break from the case. If there's a kid on your gift list this year, here's one you can close fast. Guardian is the number one kids' bike on the market, with over 1 million happy riders, and the easiest way for kids to learn to ride. They're lightweight and low to the ground, with a wide-wheel base for balance, so kids are riding in just one day. No training wheels needed. Guardian bikes are designed and assembled in the USA, and the New York Times Wirecutter has named them its top picks. For kids bikes four years in a row. This holiday season, save over 40% on kids bikes and get $100 in free accessories with every bike. A lock, pump, bell, grips, and clamp. That's stocking stuffers covered. They've got helmets and adult bikes, too.
1:46:37 Speaker 00 Shop GuardianBikes.com and it's case closed on the best kids gift this year. That's GuardianBikes.com.
1:46:45 Speaker 01 OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.
Previous Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 82: The MFM + Unqualified with Anna Faris Crossover Pt 1 Next MFM Minisode 474 Page updated October 31, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated