477 - The Greatest Depression

On today’s episode, Karen covers Linda Riss and Burt Pugach and Georgia tells the story of the Great Emu War. For our sources and show notes, visit www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes http://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Karen Kilgariff?

  This is exactly right.

• 0:06Georgia Hardstark?

  In New Orleans, truckers kept getting sideswiped the exact same way.

• 0:10Karen Kilgariff?

  When a man is found murdered under questionable circumstances related to these accidents, that's when the rubber hits the road.

• 0:16Georgia Hardstark?

  And what the feds uncover is a complex scheme of staged wrecks, financial fraud, and a pair of conspiring lovers behind it.

• 0:23Karen Kilgariff?

  This is a story about fake accidents that led to real consequences.

• 0:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now.

• 0:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Goodbye.

• 0:41Karen Kilgariff?

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• 0:46Georgia Hardstark?

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• 0:52Karen Kilgariff?

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• 0:55Georgia Hardstark?

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• 1:00Karen Kilgariff?

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• 1:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 1:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Hello and welcome.

• 1:26Georgia Hardstark?

  So my favorite murder.

• 1:28Karen Kilgariff?

  That's Georgia Hardstark.

• 1:29Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Karen Kilker.

• 1:30Karen Kilgariff?

  We're dressed for Easter.

• 1:32Georgia Hardstark?

  I keep accidentally doing that.

• 1:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Like dressing for holidays?

• 1:35Georgia Hardstark?

  For Easter specifically.

• 1:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:37Georgia Hardstark?

  I just think I have a lot of pastels in my wardrobe.

• 1:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:39Georgia Hardstark?

  You know?

• 1:40Karen Kilgariff?

  I feel like Easter was a huge holiday in 1962.

• 1:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, what did you guys do?

• 1:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, first of all, fuck you, I was born in 1970.

• 1:50Georgia Hardstark?

  That's not what I meant.

• 1:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, that would have been so shitty. I was like, really?

• 1:57Karen Kilgariff?

  What'd you guys do back there when you were married to the astronaut? What'd you used to like to do for fun on Easter?

• 2:03Georgia Hardstark?

  It was a bigger deal. I think it still is though. I went to the park near my house and there were like three different camps, like doing all the Easter cookout thing.

• 2:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 2:11Georgia Hardstark?

  And hiding things.

• 2:12Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, separate from it being a religious holiday, I do think it is the most fun, second only to Halloween or Christmas, obviously, but like, it's like a mid-spring fun thing for kids that I remember looking forward to it just because it'd been like, what are we gonna, when's the next thing? Or we get to like, have a kid time?

• 2:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. Well, that must have been nice for you Christians.

• 2:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, God, we christed around all and dyed eggs. But we did, it made me laugh because, so the Hospitals are the family that we grew up next door to, who we spend every holiday with and did, like I have pictures of my Uncle Steve with a cigarette in his hand pointing to where the eggs are hidden, because I'm like three years old, the youngest. So we always did Easter together and we would go and dye eggs like the night before in the barn, blah, blah, blah. And my cousin Stevie did that with his daughters and Nora and whatever.

• 3:08Karen Kilgariff?

  But of course, everyone's, like Nora's a senior, his daughters are out of the house. So my sister calls because they weren't gonna do Easter, because it was just a bunch of adults. And my cousin Stevie called, my sister Ben goes, um, we have to do Easter. And she was like, yeah, okay. And he's like, we're not just gonna not do it. We have to keep doing it. And she was like, okay, can I wear my sweatpants?

• 3:31Georgia Hardstark?

  He's like getting through it.

• 3:32Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like since 1972, 63, our families have gotten together and somehow been like, yes, today is the day. Here's some eggs, kids, whatever, chocolate.

• 3:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Same with Passover, which involves hiding something for the kids to find. An egg, same thing. It's like so clearly, all these things. But the difference is, and the reason we're not as excited about Passover, is the hours, it feels like, of storytelling and like prayers and shit before. Pray over the wine. You pray over the this, you pray over the that. It's like, can we fucking eat? Like, everyone hates it.

• 4:07Karen Kilgariff?

  But then the youngest gets some lines.

• 4:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, the youngest gets some lines.

• 4:10Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's the day I was turned on to Judaism as a religion and a lifestyle.

• 4:14Georgia Hardstark?

  As the youngest for a long time, it was pretty fucking, that's where I shined. That must be why I'm so good at this.

• 4:19Karen Kilgariff?

  It probably is.

• 4:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I'm a performer. I'm a natural.

• 4:21Karen Kilgariff?

  And did you know your lines, or did you have to read them out of a book?

• 4:24Georgia Hardstark?

  I read them because it looked very, like, studious.

• 4:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, that's right.

• 4:29Georgia Hardstark?

  And special and Jewish.

• 4:31Karen Kilgariff?

  And you're like, these are all the things that I will be.

• 4:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Look at me. This was about me.

• 4:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Special and studious. That is a really weird parallel, though. I never thought about that. The Passover is Jewish Easter.

• 4:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 4:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Essentially.

• 4:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 4:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Or Easter's.

• 4:46Georgia Hardstark?

  No, because.

• 4:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Christian.

• 4:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Passover came first.

• 4:49Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. And full respect to you and yours. Thanks for the idea. Ours has a lot less bloodshed.

• 4:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, you have more candy.

• 4:57Karen Kilgariff?

  It was the one sun as opposed to any sun.

• 5:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, all the suns. Um, well, I'm wearing this because I think it's, I unconsciously put it on because I'm listening to Miranda July's new book. It's called All Fours.

• 5:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 5:09Georgia Hardstark?

  And so I just cosplayed as her today, completely, on accident.

• 5:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 5:13Georgia Hardstark?

  So here we are.

• 5:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you like that book?

• 5:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I love the book. She's an incredible writer, but it's one of those things where it's like, this is definitely gonna get you depressed. It's like, are you ready to get in that headspace right now? And I don't know what the answer is, but.

• 5:25Karen Kilgariff?

  You're gonna find out.

• 5:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I will.

• 5:27Karen Kilgariff?

  You're gonna find out. Midway.

• 5:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So, that's, that's what I'm doing. Um, have you heard, I can't believe we haven't talked about this, about Valerie the Doxen?

• 5:38Karen Kilgariff?

  I thought you were gonna talk about the corrections corner that we have. No, I have not heard about Valerie the Doxen.

• 5:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Before we get to the bad stuff, let's just talk about the good stuff, which is kinda, it's good and bad. Valerie the Doxen went with her family on a trip in South Australia to Kangaroo Island. They did some camping.

• 5:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 5:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Valerie got loose, and it's been like 16 weeks, and she keeps getting spotted, owning this fucking island, somehow surviving. She won't come to anyone, but she's like, taking over the island and thriving and surviving.

• 6:08Karen Kilgariff?

  And basically doesn't wanna be found?

• 6:10Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know. It like, won't come to anyone, and her owners are devastated, but it's this kinda thing of like, shit, man, she's fucking.

• 6:17Karen Kilgariff?

  She's like, living free.

• 6:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Living the island life. I mean, it's like, pretty impressive. She's just this like, you know, sporty little lowrider who's just fucking tearing across.

• 6:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Is she like hanging out with kangaroos or is that just the name?

• 6:29Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know. I don't know who she's hanging out with. I don't know what she's eating or how she's surviving. I don't know where she's sleeping, but she doesn't look emaciated. She looks like there's something going on or she's like made a pact with the other animals there. They're like, they've taken her in.

• 6:42Karen Kilgariff?

  You're gonna help me. I'll be the personality hire.

• 6:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 6:44Karen Kilgariff?

  It's me. It's me, the doxen.

• 6:46Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm Valerie.

• 6:49Karen Kilgariff?

  I'll definitely make your party more fun. I can't help you.

• 6:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Valerie in HR.

• 6:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Or clean. That is, I immediately pictured her for some reason, standing on the edge of a cliff.

• 6:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Wind blowing.

• 6:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Just like Elizabeth Bennet in Pride and Prejudice. Exactly.

• 7:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, God.

• 7:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Where she's just like, finally, it's the life I wanted.

• 7:05Georgia Hardstark?

  This is my domain, my kingdom. I don't know. She's like a hero for our ages. Like, get the fuck, run away and fucking go live on an island.

• 7:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Do what you want, Valerie. And to all the Valerie the doxens out there that are listening right now, girl, find your kangaroo island.

• 7:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Get your kangaroo island, whatever it is.

• 7:24Karen Kilgariff?

  And run around on it.

• 7:25Georgia Hardstark?

  And live free.

• 7:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Don't come back for any call or text or anything.

• 7:30Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so like Cookie, you'd go treat, treat, and she'd be at your fucking feet in two seconds.

• 7:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 7:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Maybe, maybe.

• 7:36Karen Kilgariff?

  That just reminded me.

• 7:37Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 7:38Karen Kilgariff?

  This morning Blossom was barking like a lunatic, which I'm like, is this your new thing in the morning? I looked over, there was a puppy coyote trying to come up onto the patio. And I ran over to make sure, and there were four other ones.

• 7:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Like grown ones or puppies?

• 7:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Puppies. But like.

• 7:55Georgia Hardstark?

  And you adopted them all?

• 7:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Bigger than Blossom.

• 7:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 7:58Karen Kilgariff?

  And there to make friends so they can eat her later.

• 8:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, shit.

• 8:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Anyway, the coyote drama will not end in my backyard.

• 8:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God, that's terrifying.

• 8:07Karen Kilgariff?

  It was like a little pack, and it did look like cute stray dogs. And then I was like, these are the, these are the dogs that eat dogs.

• 8:15Georgia Hardstark?

  It takes like four of them right now, but in the future it'll just take one. You know, I've never seen Pride and Prejudice. I know. I know. I know. There's so many people.

• 8:24Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't wanna fight. I don't wanna fight.

• 8:26Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not, there was no, like, decision made.

• 8:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Really?

• 8:29Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm not that kind of girl, and so it never came up.

• 8:33Karen Kilgariff?

  A girl with a heart and a brain.

• 8:36Georgia Hardstark?

  And sense and sensibilities?

• 8:37Karen Kilgariff?

  You, you truly will love it.

• 8:40Georgia Hardstark?

  I know I will. Like, I don't know what's taking me so long.

• 8:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, and also, Matthew McFadden.

• 8:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 8:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Everyone's favorite part of Succession.

• 8:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 8:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Is the romantic lead.

• 8:48Georgia Hardstark?

  I just read a whole thing about his hand twitch, and I'm like, why? I have to see this. I have to see it.

• 8:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Here's what I'll say. First of all, I literally just watched it yesterday.

• 8:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, okay.

• 8:56Karen Kilgariff?

  It is cinematically one of the more satisfying movies that's ever been made. It's not just, like, it's not just a Janos and girl flick.

• 9:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Bridgerton type of thing.

• 9:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Truly not.

• 9:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 9:08Karen Kilgariff?

  There's so much incredible acting, so many of the best of the best British actors are in this movie. Brenda Blethlin, as the irritating mother, will free your soul.

• 9:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 9:20Karen Kilgariff?

  You will love her so much.

• 9:21Georgia Hardstark?

  I guess it's just like, I know I'd be a peasant back then, so why do I wanna watch fucking rich people traipsing around?

• 9:26Karen Kilgariff?

  For real.

• 9:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Falling in love. I know I'd be a peasant, or I'd be a scullery maid, or I'd be, you know, something, something dirty.

• 9:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Something shitty.

• 9:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Something with, like, my fingernails were always gross.

• 9:37Karen Kilgariff?

  And like, you have a lot of, like, liver paste under your fingernails.

• 9:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. And like, so many children, for some reason.

• 9:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 9:43Georgia Hardstark?

  So like, why? I don't, I don't know.

• 9:45Karen Kilgariff?

  For some reason.

• 9:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, right now, today, I don't, but back then, I absolutely would have.

• 9:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, you would have been required to.

• 9:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Definitely.

• 9:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Give it, you know what? Just put it 15 minutes on your timer, and then start it and see where you end up.

• 9:56Georgia Hardstark?

  I know all of it. I know that.

• 9:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 9:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. No one get mad at me, please.

• 10:00Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no. But there is a bit of a, the, the warning of like, oh, this is somehow historical, or it's gonna be dry in some way.

• 10:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. It's not. Okay, okay, okay. I mean, the only reason I watched Bridgerton, and I liked it, was because you told me there was something really dirty. I was like, I gotta check this out.

• 10:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Should I?

• 10:17Georgia Hardstark?

  So tell me there's something in sense and sensibility, there's like a, like a Skinamax scene.

• 10:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, but it's Pride and Prejudice, first of all.

• 10:22Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what I meant.

• 10:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Skins and Skinsibility.

• 10:28Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a, yeah, there's a, the really intense fingering scene. They're at three quarters of the way through. Is that what you want to hear?

• 10:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 10:35Karen Kilgariff?

  But it's really like locked eyes. It's insane.

• 10:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Dr. Shocker comes around and just blows everything out of the water.

• 10:41Karen Kilgariff?

  In this tiny town in Victorian England.

• 10:44Georgia Hardstark?

  And then it goes back to normal. It's so weird.

• 10:46Karen Kilgariff?

  It's very strange.

• 10:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Stop it. Let's do this podcast.

• 10:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's do a Corrections Corner and then knowing full well that we're going to have to do another Corrections Corner for what I just said about Jane Austen Book.

• 10:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 10:57Karen Kilgariff?

  This one makes me laugh really hard because I think our audience now knows us so well.

• 11:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 11:01Karen Kilgariff?

  That they're like.

• 11:02Georgia Hardstark?

  I know what you meant.

• 11:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Of course, of course you don't know this, but I will be nice and tell you.

• 11:07Georgia Hardstark?

  I love that, like, I think what you meant was, like, trying to, like, we can't think of a word and they know what we're trying to say.

• 11:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, truly, and I don't know how many times I have to say this, when I just say stuff, I, that is what I'm doing.

• 11:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 11:19Karen Kilgariff?

  In no way did I think that, as you were retelling me, the Amistad trial, that when you were like, John Adams, blah, blah, blah, that I, would that, my response was going to be historically accurate from an educated mind.

• 11:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 11:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Any of those things.

• 11:35Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no memory. Well, so in the story from last week, the Amistad trial, which is episode 476, I explain that President Van Buren appeals the decision for the Amistad Party to return home. And then I say that the abolitionists ask former president and current Massachusetts Congressman John Quincy Adams, you know him, I say, to represent the group in court.

• 11:58Karen Kilgariff?

  My response is, of course, Paul Giamatti.

• 12:01Georgia Hardstark?

  That's your response to everything.

• 12:02Karen Kilgariff?

  It really is.

• 12:03Georgia Hardstark?

  We always cut a lot of that out because otherwise this whole show would be just talking about Paul Giamatti, but.

• 12:08Karen Kilgariff?

  But still.

• 12:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Referring to his, you were referring to his TV mini-series, John Adams.

• 12:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 12:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, Stephanie, a listener emailed with Corrections Corner, John Quincy Adams is the son of John Adams. It's actually a very common mistake. And then Elizabeth dot Gray on Instagram also caught it commenting,

• 12:28Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm so sorry, but Paul Giamatti played John Adams. John Quincy was his son, played by the hottie, hot, hot Evan Moss Backrack, who has one of those. Like, why he's so hot without being hot?

• 12:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 12:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Like Walton Goggins?

• 12:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, exactly.

• 12:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Why am I so attracted to this person?

• 12:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, I was gonna say because Eben Moss Bakrak, who is the brother from The Bear.

• 12:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Of course. And from Girls, the fucking incredible, his character was incredible. A total piece of shit in Girls. It was so good.

• 12:56Karen Kilgariff?

  But also, he has a little bit of Vince in his face to me.

• 13:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 13:00Karen Kilgariff?

  When I first watched The Bear, I was like, that guy looks like Vince.

• 13:03Georgia Hardstark?

  And he has Vince's coloring too, the blonde, oh my god, you're totally right.

• 13:06Karen Kilgariff?

  And like the soft eyes of like, the eyes of a person that's going, what are you doing, man?

• 13:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 13:11Karen Kilgariff?

  All the time.

• 13:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Who knows your actual, like, um, he knows what's behind what you're doing.

• 13:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 13:17Georgia Hardstark?

  And you can't trick him.

• 13:18Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 13:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 13:19Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 13:20Georgia Hardstark?

  That's real. And he's gonna use it, this guy though, he looks like he's gonna use it against you in the future.

• 13:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 13:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Vince won't.

• 13:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Vince is like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna help you book a hotel with this information that I have about you.

• 13:29Georgia Hardstark?

  This is how I know, like, to do something really nice for you. But this guy's like.

• 13:33Karen Kilgariff?

  This guy, mm-mm.

• 13:34Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm your drug dealer.

• 13:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Careful.

• 13:36Georgia Hardstark?

  You should be careful. So, uh, that's Corrections Corner.

• 13:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Anyway, did that help all your history students? We drove that one right into the wall. Well, listen, here's what's important. We have a podcast network and there's a lot of stuff going on.

• 13:51Georgia Hardstark?

  There is. It's called Exactly Right Media.

• 13:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 13:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Here's some highlights.

• 13:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. This week on Verid Bones, Kate and Paul head to 1924 England for part one of their two-part series about a young couple faced with an unplanned pregnancy and a police force faced with an open and shut murder case until a new discovery changes everything.

• 14:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And then over on The Knife, our newest show that we're so proud of, Hannah and Peja bring you the story of Jennifer Thompson, a college student who survived her brutal assault. She did everything she could to help identify her attacker, only to learn years later that the wrong man had been convicted. You should be listening to The Knife regularly. It's so freaking good.

• 14:32Karen Kilgariff?

  They're so great. Also, they just got featured on iTunes in the, like, The Knife as a podcast just got featured.

• 14:39Georgia Hardstark?

  That's new and noteworthy.

• 14:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Go take a look at that.

• 14:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Hell, yeah.

• 14:42Karen Kilgariff?

  And you will see, also, very new, very noteworthy podcast that we love so much is Ghosted by Rosal. Hernandez. This week, Roz is honestly stunned when iconic actor and comedian Mo Collins, who I love the most.

• 14:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Incredible.

• 14:55Karen Kilgariff?

  The funniest. She shows up with a real life haunted house story that has everything, a poltergeist, a ghost, a portal, and a very freaked out real estate agent.

• 15:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Mo Collins is incredible.

• 15:04Karen Kilgariff?

  So funny.

• 15:05Georgia Hardstark?

  A natural. Finally, on I Said No Gifts, two time Survivor contestant Zeke Smith disobeys Bridger with a gift by bringing him a gift, even though the podcast is called I Said No Gifts.

• 15:15Karen Kilgariff?

  They don't care.

• 15:15Georgia Hardstark?

  And they just keep bringing him gifts. They chat about processed cheese, airport renovations, and the universal truth of dust.

• 15:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Shit.

• 15:22Georgia Hardstark?

  What could it be?

• 15:23Karen Kilgariff?

  That's heavy.

• 15:24Georgia Hardstark?

  What's the universal truth?

• 15:25Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just everywhere and we're made of it.

• 15:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, like in our.

• 15:28Karen Kilgariff?

  It's our skin.

• 15:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Pores.

• 15:30Karen Kilgariff?

  It's also stars.

• 15:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh huh.

• 15:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, also, here's a special announcement. For anybody listening who lives in the Chicago area, two of our podcasts are coming to the Den Theater in Chicago. So first, The Banana Boys are performing there live on May 8th, and then I Said No Gifts is taking the stage to record a live episode on May 23rd. So go to the Den Theater, laugh, then you can come home and listen to your own laughter a few days later on I Said No Gifts.

• 15:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Fun. Go to the dentheater.com. Those two shows are, I feel like all the shows on our network, but those two specifically are so good live.

• 16:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yes.

• 16:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, you will have the best time. Go by yourself, bring a first date. It'll like, it'll be fine.

• 16:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, both of those, you're, you're completely right. Both of those shows as something to do.

• 16:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 16:13Karen Kilgariff?

  One night.

• 16:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 16:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Will deliver in every way.

• 16:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Absolutely.

• 16:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 16:16Georgia Hardstark?

  And exciting merch news, this week's episode of Rewind was originally released right after the 2016 election, and we said then, our infamous quote, "This is terrible, keep going." And so we're re-releasing some of that merch that Karen, if you, if you're watching this on our YouTube page, Exactly Right Media, you'll see all this fucking incredible, oh my god, that t-shirt's great.

• 16:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Right?

• 16:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Is that mine?

• 16:38Karen Kilgariff?

  I knew you would love that. We brought it back. We have made a gigantic tote bag that you can root around in forever.

• 16:44Georgia Hardstark?

  You guys are tote people.

• 16:45Karen Kilgariff?

  These sweatpants, which I told the story the other day, I wore my own merch out because these sweatpants are so comfortable, you don't want to take them off.

• 16:54Georgia Hardstark?

  I have the, um, fuck you, I married once, and they're like. The softest thing I've ever, oh, these are so soft.

• 16:59Karen Kilgariff?

  So soft and very casual that it's, this is terrible, keep going. It's just kind of right up on your hip.

• 17:04Georgia Hardstark?

  I might take these.

• 17:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Pretty lucky. And then, of course.

• 17:06Georgia Hardstark?

  The mug.

• 17:07Karen Kilgariff?

  The mug, the best mug ever. And I love this color combination.

• 17:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Blue and light blue are my, dark blue and light blue are my favorite combination.

• 17:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Real nice.

• 17:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Very good. So go to exactlyrightstore.com and you can see all of it and get whatever you feel like.

• 17:20Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. And, you know, with all the protests that are basically happening every weekend now, just remember that this was a saying that you and I came up with. One of us said, this is terrible. The other one said, keep going. It's from our 2016.

• 17:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 17:35Karen Kilgariff?

  After the election episode. And so we're relaunching it now for these terrible times that we live in to just bring people some sort of comfort.

• 17:43Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I said? I said Sally forth to Vince today.

• 17:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah?

• 17:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. He's like, what are we gonna do? And I'm like, Sally forth.

• 17:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, got to.

• 17:50Georgia Hardstark?

  And it felt real and right.

• 17:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. You have to listen to Gold Jim.

• 17:54Georgia Hardstark?

  The home Jim.

• 17:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Good old home Jim.

• 17:58Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 18:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 18:08Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 18:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.

• 18:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year. 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.

• 18:54Karen Kilgariff?

  That's simplisafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in MFM at checkout and it tells them we sent you and it really helps the show.

• 19:02Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time.

• 19:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. This podcast is brought to you by SimpliSafe. Brought to you by Squarespace. Turning something you love into a career is exciting. Then come the invoices. Lucky for you, Squarespace can handle the business stuff so you can focus on your business. From consultations to events and experiences, you can showcase your skills with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business. With Squarespace's collection of cutting-edge design tools, anyone can build a beautiful, professional, online presence that perfectly fits their brand or business. Get paid on time with professional invoices and online payments. Plus, streamline your workflow with built-in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools. Head to Squarespace.com/murder for a free trial.

• 19:47Karen Kilgariff?

  And when you're ready to launch, use offer code MURDER to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Goodbye. Sometimes being a little salty is completely justified.

• 19:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Pair your salty side with something sweet with the new Salted Caramel flavor from Kachava.

• 20:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Kachava is a whole-body shake with plant-based protein, fiber, greens, and other nutrients to help fill nutritional gaps.

• 20:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Just two scoops provide complete nutrition your body craves with protein, fiber, greens, and so much more.

• 20:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Their new Salted Caramel flavor combines sweet caramel with a little salt, so you get that salty-sweet balance along with the nutrition Kachava is known for.

• 20:23Georgia Hardstark?

  When the day demands your salty side, fuel it with plant-based protein that actually tastes delicious.

• 20:28Karen Kilgariff?

  I really do love Kachava, and I really do think it does taste delicious for getting you through the morning, filling in the gap if you just need some protein and you need some vitamins. It's such a nice little treat.

• 20:40Georgia Hardstark?

  It's such an easy way to get everything you need, and it tastes good, too, which is just huge bonus.

• 20:44Karen Kilgariff?

  So embrace your salty side.

• 20:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Go to kachava.com and use code MFM for 15% off your first order.

• 20:50Karen Kilgariff?

  That's Kachava, K-A-C-H-A-V-A.com, code MFM. Goodbye.

• 20:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, all right, you're first.

• 20:59Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. So my story this week, and I remember when Maren and I were talking about picking it as a story, because this documentary about this story came out in 2007, and I saw it very soon after. And it's the living proof of like, it was a different time. Even though it was only 2007, it seems recent. But the story I'm about to tell you and the way it was kind of presented at the time, compared to how it probably would be presented now,

• 21:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 21:28Karen Kilgariff?

  is pretty crazy.

• 21:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 21:30Karen Kilgariff?

  There's a lot to be grateful for in terms of where we are right now, even though it's terrible and we have to keep going.

• 21:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 21:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, there's some, there's some good stuff. So, let's start at the beginning. It's the morning of June 15th, 1959.

• 21:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 21:44Karen Kilgariff?

  It's right before my first birthday. And 22-year-old Linda Riss, who's a beautiful woman, a lot of people say she looks like Elizabeth Taylor.

• 21:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 21:53Karen Kilgariff?

  She actually just kind of has a little baby face and she's very kind of glamorous. But I'm sure Liz Taylor was like, the height of beauty at the time. So they're just saying she was just an attractive woman. So Linda's about to leave her Bronx apartment where she lives with her mother, to head into work in Manhattan, where she works as a receptionist. But before she can do that, the doorbell rings. Linda's mother asks who's there. And from the other side of the door, a man calls out "package for Ms. Linda Riss." So that's not weird. Linda is used to getting gifts either from her doting fiance Larry, or from friends and family who are sending them gifts because Larry and Linda just recently announced their engagement.

• 22:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Got it.

• 22:35Karen Kilgariff?

  In fact, their engagement party had been the night before.

• 22:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 22:38Karen Kilgariff?

  So the idea of like, getting sent something to the apartment wasn't weird. But as Linda opens the front door to see what she's been sent, she only sees the delivery man for a flash. And then she feels what she thinks is boiling water having been thrown in her face.

• 22:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, God.

• 22:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Her mother screams in horror as Linda starts screaming in pain. Her eyes are burning, her skin is burning. She's rushed to the hospital, where she'll learn that, of course, that liquid was not hot water, it was a lie.

• 23:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck.

• 23:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Right? So if you don't know, that's the chemical that used to be used in soap and cleaning products. It's very caustic in its raw form. And that means it can burn human skin. And the obsessive, delusional man behind this attack seems committed to making Linda's life a living hell. This is just the beginning of a long and twisted not love story. Kind of the opposite of a love story that's presented as a love story.

• 23:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, of course.

• 23:34Karen Kilgariff?

  And was at the time, the details of which will feed the tabloid press for decades. And in the early 2000s, becomes a documentary called Crazy Love. This is the story of Linda Riss and Bert Pugach.

• 23:48Georgia Hardstark?

  I think I've heard of this one.

• 23:50Karen Kilgariff?

  I think you have.

• 23:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 23:52Karen Kilgariff?

  So the main sources used today are the 2007 documentary Crazy Love, directed by Dan Cloraes and Fisher Stevens.

• 23:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, you guys definitely saw that, but it's been so long.

• 24:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. It was like a very early, at that time, a documentary which is like, can you believe this story? And it was kind of reflective on, can you believe what the tabloids used to be like? Or what these things, you know, what used to fill up our daily media?

• 24:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, how we were OK talking about certain things in ways that were just completely inappropriate.

• 24:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, exactly. Having the media kind of present the stories, and this is what you will think of this now.

• 24:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. It's like when they call it a crime of passion, where it's like, that's not a fucking thing.

• 24:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. Yes. OK, so the other sources are the book, A Very Different Love Story by Barry Steinbach, and several articles from the New York Times archives. And the rest of our sources are in the show notes. So the story actually starts two years before this lie attack, in 1957, when a very successful 30-year-old negligence attorney named Bert Pugach sees 21-year-old Linda Riss standing alone in a park. And Bert will later say, quote, "I thought she was the most magnificent, gorgeous-looking female I had ever seen. She was so proud-looking, the way she carried herself, with her shoulders thrown back, her head held high, her long, dark brown hair just stirring in the breeze.

• 25:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Literally, from the moment I saw her from 30 feet away, I fell hopelessly in love with her."

• 25:16Georgia Hardstark?

  So he's at a zoo, explaining.

• 25:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 25:18Georgia Hardstark?

  An animal.

• 25:19Karen Kilgariff?

  The female.

• 25:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Female.

• 25:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Of this.

• 25:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Of the species.

• 25:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Species. She's proud.

• 25:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 25:26Karen Kilgariff?

  She's proud with long hair.

• 25:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Her fur is long.

• 25:27Karen Kilgariff?

  I also think it's kind of sad because you were not in love with her.

• 25:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, and luxurious.

• 25:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 25:32Karen Kilgariff?

  You were attracted to her, probably mostly sexually.

• 25:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 25:37Karen Kilgariff?

  And you don't know her as a person at all.

• 25:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 25:39Karen Kilgariff?

  So he introduces himself to Linda. He wants to win her over, so he begins to send her flowers and gifts. It's a clear case of love bombing, and he's got the money to do it. He takes her out to the city's swankiest nightclubs. They rub elbows with celebrities. He takes her flying in his airplane.

• 25:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 25:57Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just a classic, kind of like, I'm gonna invade your life. You're the thing I want. I'm gonna get it.

• 26:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. We're all in. Let's do this.

• 26:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. As charming as Bert seems at first, he's also emotionally volatile and manipulative. He's constantly pressuring Linda to sleep with him. She won't do it unless they're married. Then he goes on to accusing her of having sex with other men behind his back. And he is so nonstop and confrontational about this fact that Linda, this is such a like time and place horror show. Linda goes to her doctor to get him to confirm her virginity for Bert.

• 26:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my god. How old is she?

• 26:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Twenty-two.

• 26:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 26:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 26:38Georgia Hardstark?

  That's creepy.

• 26:39Karen Kilgariff?

  It's super creepy and it's like, so a guy in a park comes up to you.

• 26:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 26:42Karen Kilgariff?

  And just won't leave you alone.

• 26:44Georgia Hardstark?

  And now he owns your fucking body and life.

• 26:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And now you're answering to him in this way because he has a plane.

• 26:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 26:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Or because he'll take you to cool places.

• 26:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 26:53Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, it was the setup back then.

• 26:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that's true.

• 26:56Karen Kilgariff?

  It was the whole idea is like, you get pretty enough and then you get these things.

• 26:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 27:00Karen Kilgariff?

  And whatever comes along with that, you deal with it.

• 27:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally, totally.

• 27:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so Linda's still very young. This relationship is very confusing for her. Bert is dazzling her with attention and affection and all the things his wealth can afford. But he also treats her terribly at times, and then things begin to escalate to physical violence. So several months into their relationship, Linda then finds out Bert is married and has a young daughter.

• 27:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, shit.

• 27:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. So that's when she decides she's had enough. This is not the romance that has been presented or that she wants it to be. Bert swears to her that he's in the process of ending his marriage. He even shows Linda his divorce papers as proof. She's skeptical and she will later say, quote, "I never trusted Bert. I never trusted men. When Bert showed me a divorce decree, I wrote down the number and I had a lawyer check it. Not many girls would do that."

• 27:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Damn, girl. I feel like if you have to go that far, though, it doesn't matter if it's real or not.

• 28:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 28:01Georgia Hardstark?

  You know?

• 28:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, and also, I'm sorry, so if you prove it is real,

• 28:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 28:06Karen Kilgariff?

  the love's back on.

• 28:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. He still lied to you about being married.

• 28:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, that's the, let's focus on the real problem.

• 28:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. You don't have to have a huge excuse, like the divorce papers are wrong, to break up with someone.

• 28:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 28:19Georgia Hardstark?

  You just like.

• 28:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Not anymore. But back then,

• 28:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 28:25Karen Kilgariff?

  I think that's the vibe, is like, this is your chance to get married, or this is your chance to land a, you know, a lawyer, something amazing.

• 28:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 28:33Karen Kilgariff?

  So Linda does her due diligence and it pays off. She finds out Bert's divorce papers are fake.

• 28:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 28:39Karen Kilgariff?

  And he himself is a lawyer, so he just asked his secretary to mock up convincing looking documents.

• 28:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 28:45Karen Kilgariff?

  So this is when Linda finally ends things. And not long after she does, she meets someone new, this guy named Larry. Larry is only a year older than Linda and he doesn't have the money that Bert does. But Linda describes him as, quote, "a nice, easygoing guy." He's also described as, quote, "one of the most beautiful men she had ever seen."

• 29:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, so now she's at the fucking zoo.

• 29:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 29:07Georgia Hardstark?

  I'll have that koala.

• 29:08Karen Kilgariff?

  She's like, "How about I get some of this?"

• 29:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 29:10Karen Kilgariff?

  And then also, maybe money isn't the thing I'm really looking for here. The young couple genuinely seems happy together, but Bert isn't ready to let Linda go. He bombards her with calls and impromptu visits, begging her to take him back. At first, she finds it sort of flattering, because I mean, like, and that is the. The play, we are always talking about what women did or didn't do and whether they handled it right or not, or anything. And it's like, you're getting the full court press by this

• 29:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 29:40Karen Kilgariff?

  con man, and it's your fault that you're falling for it.

• 29:43Georgia Hardstark?

  We've all been 22. It's like

• 29:44Karen Kilgariff?

  22.

• 29:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Hard. It's fucking hard.

• 29:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh. So at first Linda finds all of it pretty flattering, but then she says, quote, "It shortly becomes very stifling. Bert was relentless. He would not stop calling. He would not stop following me. It was a time of hell for me." So Linda is forced to continue to reject Bert, and then Bert begins to spiral. Soon, he's threatening to take his own life. He's also saying things to people like, quote, "If I can't have her, I'll see to it that nobody will." And Bert actually goes so far as to hire men to throw rocks at Linda's window, hoping that she will then turn to him for protection.

• 30:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, weird.

• 30:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Of course, she knows it's him. She's very freaked out by this escalating behavior. And so finally, she goes to the cops. What's the chorus of this song? They don't help her.

• 30:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 30:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Linda says, quote, "The police officer at the desk told me that they weren't going to do anything," quote, "because he's a lawyer." So she decides to take matters into her own hands. She changes her phone number, which telling you, if it's 1960 something at this point, changing her phone number is, I bet you she had to like submit tons of paperwork

• 30:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 30:57Karen Kilgariff?

  to do that.

• 30:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 30:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Big pain in the ass.

• 30:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 31:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Then she finds a receptionist's job one block from the nearest subway stop, so she doesn't have to like

• 31:05Georgia Hardstark?

  My god.

• 31:06Karen Kilgariff?

  expose herself or go all around. She even tries to file legal charges against Bert, but he retaliates by writing his own bogus claims aimed at making the Riss's lives miserable.

• 31:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 31:17Karen Kilgariff?

  So he's like ready and willing and very able to weaponize the kind of legal system against her

• 31:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 31:22Karen Kilgariff?

  and in defense of himself. So now it's spring of 1959. Oh, it's 59 when she has to, they just got phones.

• 31:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 31:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Now she's trying to change her number. They're like, ma'am.

• 31:32Georgia Hardstark?

  We don't have anymore.

• 31:33Karen Kilgariff?

  It's still Murray Hill 35709.

• 31:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, there's no other phone numbers.

• 31:36Karen Kilgariff?

  We don't have, it only goes up to 5,000. Okay, so the spring of 1959, Linda and her boyfriend Larry get engaged. And as you can imagine, Bert freaks out. Linda will later say, quote, "That was my undoing. The minute I accepted a ring and got engaged, that's when Bert went ballistic completely. That's when he really lost it." So Bert shows up outside of Linda's house with a loaded gun, fully prepared to shoot Linda and Larry as they leave her home, but at the last minute, he changes his mind. He will later admit, quote, "It's not an easy thing to kill, to shoot a person. I had to retreat."

• 32:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 32:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Kind of making himself sound like a victim in that situation. This is too hard for me. Where it's like, this was your idea.

• 32:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 32:22Karen Kilgariff?

  So instead of doing the dirty work himself, Bert decides he's going to outsource the job. That brings us back to the morning, June 15th, 1959, when the man Linda thinks is a delivery person throws lie in her face.

• 32:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Who the fuck could you get to do something like that?

• 32:40Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean.

• 32:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, this person is just a rando and is like, yep, I'll do that.

• 32:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Sure.

• 32:44Georgia Hardstark?

  I'll disfigure a stranger.

• 32:46Karen Kilgariff?

  And usually, at the end of these stories, they disfigure a person for like $300.

• 32:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, exactly.

• 32:53Karen Kilgariff?

  So of course, this horrible thing happens. Linda's rushed to the hospital. Her friend will later remember, quote, "Linda just lay there unconscious with greasy medication smeared all over her eyes and face. There were massive scars all around her eyes. Her cheeks and forehead were burned terribly."

• 33:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, you bet.

• 33:11Karen Kilgariff?

  So when Linda wakes up in the hospital the next morning, she can't see. She's so distraught that her friends and family are afraid that she might take her own life. And they actually install bars on the windows of the hospital room. So it was so long ago that there weren't already bars on the windows of hospital rooms those windows could open. Meanwhile, word of the violent attack on a young, beautiful bride-to-be draws the interest of tabloid reporters, which is kind of strange. It's like the lead up to like the National Enquirer of the 80s.

• 33:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 33:46Karen Kilgariff?

  But like, I feel like this... We've done versions of this.

• 33:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 33:50Karen Kilgariff?

  There's a lot of celebrity versions, whatever, but this kind of straight up a stranger.

• 33:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 33:55Karen Kilgariff?

  It's the Sherry Popini that I think that it died.

• 33:58Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a scoop. There's a scoop and we need it.

• 34:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 34:01Georgia Hardstark?

  This is like salacious.

• 34:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. It just doesn't feel like they do this as much anymore.

• 34:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's complete.

• 34:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so Linda gives them a statement when they call saying, quote, "You read about these things, but you don't believe they could ever happen to you. Why did it happen to me? I only hope to die."

• 34:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, man.

• 34:18Karen Kilgariff?

  So she really gives them a quote.

• 34:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 34:21Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, they're looking for salacious and they're looking for a horror show and she gives it to them.

• 34:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 34:26Karen Kilgariff?

  So from there, the media interest around Linda's attack grows and grows and her story makes headlines across New York. Meanwhile, everyone who knows Burt Pugach has the same thought. He has to be behind this attack.

• 34:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 34:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Linda spends nearly three months recovering in the hospital and she's placed under police protection after the fact. Although she regains about 80% of her vision in one eye, she's lost her other eye.

• 34:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my god.

• 34:53Karen Kilgariff?

  As well as all her hair. She has permanent scarring on her face. And the entire time that she's recovering in the hospital, Burt is continually sending her flowers.

• 35:03Georgia Hardstark?

  What the fuck?

• 35:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Calling her constantly and repeatedly asking to see her.

• 35:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Ew.

• 35:09Karen Kilgariff?

  So just relentless monster.

• 35:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 35:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Based on the descriptions from Linda and her mother, the police note that Burt was not the one who threw the lie in her face, but they're certain he's behind it.

• 35:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Correct.

• 35:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Unlike before, when Linda asked for help and got ignored, detectives are now working very hard to see that she gets justice. And then I wrote in all caps, "Now that she's lost a eye."

• 35:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 35:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Like.

• 35:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. She needed it a minute before that.

• 35:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, also, it just is that thing of like, people not only didn't see the warning signs of like an obsessive stalker type like this.

• 35:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 35:42Karen Kilgariff?

  It was romanticized.

• 35:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 35:44Karen Kilgariff?

  It was like kind of in the media of like, isn't this sad for this bride? We're not talking about the guy at all.

• 35:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 35:49Karen Kilgariff?

  We're not saying, here's a well-known lawyer in this city.

• 35:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 35:53Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just get the quote from her.

• 35:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 35:56Karen Kilgariff?

  So the cops just need solid evidence to secure Burt's conviction so that they can make an arrest, right? Fortunately for the cops, Bert can't keep his mouth shut. Investigators secure a warrant to bug his law office and immediately catch him on tape, basically admitting that he orchestrated the attack on Linda. So he's finally arrested on October 30th, 1959, along with the three men that he hired to help him carry out that attack. Yeah. So the Daily News reports this. Linda, brought to the station house by her policewoman guard, identified the lie-thrower, and then kissed every one of the detectives who had worked so hard. Aww. End quote. And then I just wrote in all caps, "I don't like that at all."

• 36:41Karen Kilgariff?

  No. No. Maybe it's that "moi," like a "thank you." "Moi." Maybe, but also just gross. It's gross. What are we doing? Yeah. So as Bert's trial looms ahead of him, his wife leaves him. I'm late. It's so wild. He's disparred. He's no longer a lawyer. It sounded like I said "disparred." It did. But I said "disbarred," is what I meant in my heart. Of course, Linda hates him, so at this point, he has nothing to lose, and he starts acting like it. He tries to mess with everyone involved in the trial, so he starts filing frivolous lawsuits against the judge in the case, against the DA, as well as against the city of New York itself. God.

• 37:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Right before he's supposed to head into the courtroom, one day, he takes the lens out of his eyeglasses and attempts to slit his wrists, but totally just superficial wounds. According to writer Barry Steinbach, this was Bert's attempt at orchestrating a mistrial. Barry Steinbach says, quote, "He thought it would incapacitate him for several weeks, too long for the jury to be held." But it doesn't, the scheme doesn't work. His wounds are not going to hold any trial back. So in July of 1962, Bert Pugach is found guilty of soliciting the lie attack and is handed a maximum sentence of 30 years in prison. When Linda is asked for her thoughts on the sentencing, she says, quote, "I didn't think it was long enough. I wanted him to rot in there."

• 38:11Karen Kilgariff?

  And the other men are sentenced as well. So Linda's discharged from the hospital in the fall of 1959. She tries to start over. She moves into a brand new apartment. So she's not in the apartment where the attack happened anymore. She starts to go out in public. She wears stylish wigs. She always wears big, dark sunglasses. She has an artificial eye. She basically is kind of trying to get back out there. But she has this future that she planned that's just fading away.

• 38:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, what happens to her fiance?

• 38:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, she, this is very, very sad. But she can tell, she feels like Larry wants to get out of the engagement. And then he's like, basically feels like he has to go through with it. So she basically tells him, she's like, letting him out of it. So she says, I don't think it's safe for you to be in this because he's gonna do something.

• 39:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Like giving him an out.

• 39:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Gives him an out. He takes the out.

• 39:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, ouch.

• 39:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Terrible way to find out that's not your true love, but it's how it is. And she's right. Who knows what he's gonna do once he gets out of jail. It's not gonna be for a while, but who knows? So Larry does argue at first. He promises to stay by her side, but he does eventually end the engagement. And Linda's in this spot now where it's just kind of like, so the person that I did want to marry doesn't stay. And then this guy that I kind of just dated and thought I was having a romance with is my nightmare. And this is just, these are my choices now.

• 39:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 39:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So she does start seeing a man who seems interested in her. They date for a while. He even proposes. But the man has never seen Linda without her sunglasses on. And so she's really anxious. She is objectively a gorgeous woman. Obviously, she's been scarred and, and, you know, there's damage because of that attack. But this is a woman who's gorgeous enough and came up in this very sexist and very repressed time where a woman was raised to build her worth on how men, how attracted men were to her. That was life back then. So this kind of anxiety and this kind of like, oh, I hope he still picks me

• 40:23Karen Kilgariff?

  is pretty par for the course. Linda's friend suggests that she make arrangements to meet with her boyfriend purely for the reason of having him see her without the dark glasses on.

• 40:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 40:37Karen Kilgariff?

  So here's what Linda has to say about that plan. She says, quote, "Lo and behold, he came up to the office one day and I was wearing my clear glasses and apparently it kind of floored him, let me put it that way. It was more than he expected. He couldn't handle it. You know, it devastated me. It hurt me, destroyed me."

• 40:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Ugh.

• 40:56Karen Kilgariff?

  She also says, "You have to understand, I'm now a different person. I'm walking around with shades. I'm never taking off these shades. I'm not thinking in terms of ever getting married. It's just not going to happen. I am now damaged merchandise."

• 41:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, honey.

• 41:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So that brings us into the early 70s and now Bert, in his mid-40s, he's doing time in Attica, upstate, and he served about a decade of his sentence and, of course, has learned nothing. He continues to harass Linda.

• 41:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 41:27Karen Kilgariff?

  She says, quote, "Bert used to send me mail from prison, pages and pages of letters. I used to change numbers like you would change underwear. Didn't work, it never helped. No matter what I did, there was no getting away from Bert."

• 41:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God. He like wouldn't give it up.

• 41:40Karen Kilgariff?

  No. And also, no one's doing anything.

• 41:43Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. You'd think that he'd be like, he'd get a restraining order against himself.

• 41:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 41:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, he wouldn't be able to send those. They intercepted them at the prison.

• 41:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 41:51Georgia Hardstark?

  He couldn't call her or something.

• 41:53Karen Kilgariff?

  It was pre all those things getting set up where it's like, so don't let the guy in jail for attacking this woman send letters to this woman.

• 42:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Or continue harassing her.

• 42:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's put it on the blackout list.

• 42:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 42:03Karen Kilgariff?

  So in 1971, as everyone knows, because Georgia covered this on this show, there's a huge prison riot at Attica. And during that time, somehow Bert crosses paths with civil rights attorney William Kunsler. Kunsler is probably most famous for representing the anti-Vietnam War protesters known as the Chicago Seven, but he also has a deep roster of notable clients. And remember, Bert is a rich guy, an ex-lawyer himself. He has been giving legal advice to his fellow inmates, and that's probably how he met Kunsler. Either way, the two develop some sort of a relationship. And so then Linda's phone rings and she says, quote,

• 42:46Karen Kilgariff?

  One day, Bill Consler gets on the phone and tells me how much Bert loves me and he wants to get back with me and all this crap. And I said, if he's so freaking interested, then why the hell doesn't he send me some money? I'm living like a peasant. I have no money. Let him show his good faith. End quote.

• 43:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 43:03Karen Kilgariff?

  So Linda's in her mid-30s. She has been losing vision in her remaining eye. Because of that, she can't work anymore. So getting money from the man who violently assaulted her is appropriate and seems normal.

• 43:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 43:17Karen Kilgariff?

  So Consler reports this message back to Bert, who sees it as a win, of course, because at least Linda's actually communicating back with him.

• 43:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, he sees it as like an opening.

• 43:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. So in the documentary Crazy Love, Bert claims this is when he starts charging for the legal advice he's giving to his fellow inmates. And soon, he's able to send Linda around $100 a week. It's hard to tell exactly how much he sends Linda. He claims in the documentary, he sends her $4,000, which is how much in today's money.

• 43:47Georgia Hardstark?

  And 72?

• 43:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm.

• 43:49Georgia Hardstark?

  4,000? 19,000?

• 43:51Karen Kilgariff?

  30,000.

• 43:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 43:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. So he's sending her money, which to me is like, kind of a good faith thing of like, yes, you took away her vision.

• 44:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, the court should have probably, you know.

• 44:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 44:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 44:05Karen Kilgariff?

  It should have been that, but this is prehistory.

• 44:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 44:07Karen Kilgariff?

  This is caveman times. So 14 years into his sentence, in March of 1974, 47-year-old Bert Pugach has a scheduled parole hearing. And Linda knows it's coming, so she writes to the parole board. She tells them to deny his request. She says she'd like to see him die behind bars. She actually writes, quote, "I want him to come out of prison in a box."

• 44:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 44:29Karen Kilgariff?

  The judge grants him parole.

• 44:30Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 44:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Bert is ordered to stay away from Linda as a condition of his release.

• 44:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Which he follows, story is over.

• 44:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, yep. In fact, though, he... It's such a big news story that he has been released from prison that although he's not allowed to contact Linda directly, he suddenly has a better way to reach her, which is on the local news.

• 44:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, for the media.

• 44:55Karen Kilgariff?

  So, literally a week after he's paroled, Linda's watching TV and she sees a clip of him in an interview where he turns and looks directly into the camera and says, "Linda, I know you're out there. Linda, I love you. Linda, I want to marry you."

• 45:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 45:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And now he's free.

• 45:13Georgia Hardstark?

  That's awful.

• 45:15Karen Kilgariff?

  And if you are the reporter for the New York Post-

• 45:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 45:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Or whatever it is-

• 45:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Gold.

• 45:21Karen Kilgariff?

  You're like, "We're back on."

• 45:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Gold. This is gold.

• 45:23Karen Kilgariff?

  It's gold and it's-

• 45:24Georgia Hardstark?

  We're not even going to think about morally if we should do this or not.

• 45:27Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no, no.

• 45:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Because we have to.

• 45:28Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's been going on at this point for like 20 years.

• 45:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. This story is giving so much.

• 45:37Karen Kilgariff?

  So Linda's 35 years old at this point.

• 45:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh honey.

• 45:41Karen Kilgariff?

  It's 1974, then in terms of single lady years, she's about 55.

• 45:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 45:47Karen Kilgariff?

  In a statement in the documentary Crazy Love, a friend will simply describe Linda as having, quote, "No one on the horizon." So, big concern for everybody at the time. Some of Linda's own friends, including the policewoman who met Linda while protecting her from Bert before he was convicted, begin to encourage Linda to reach out to Bert.

• 46:10Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 46:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. So it's like they're saying, "But he loves you so much."

• 46:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. What else have you got?

• 46:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Kind of. I mean-

• 46:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, "He's better than being alone somehow."

• 46:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Yes.

• 46:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Get a dog.

• 46:24Karen Kilgariff?

  God forbid you be an old maid, you could have this guy.

• 46:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 46:29Karen Kilgariff?

  You could have this guy. So, and also she's, if she has friends and family saying that to her, and then she's also the one going through this deal with however she feels about her appearance-

• 46:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 46:40Karen Kilgariff?

  And the change of it. So about three months after Bert is released from prison, that same policewoman arranges a meeting between Bert and Linda.

• 46:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Honey.

• 46:52Karen Kilgariff?

  At first, it's awkward, but Linda also finds it at first disarming and then kind of comforting because she says, quote, "In jail, they made a new man out of Bert. He was muscular. He looked good. I wore my clear glasses." And this is the, this hurts me deeply. Sorry, I'm still in this quote, but, "I wore my clear glasses. I don't think I could have revealed myself with clear glasses to anyone else. He saw no difference. To him, I was still beautiful."

• 47:22Georgia Hardstark?

  I ve, the psychological trauma alone.

• 47:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 47:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Is just so clear based on that.

• 47:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And the, the damage that would be done to like feeling like you might be in love with a person, then you're like, oh, but I have this thing and take your sunglasses off and that person's like, bye.

• 47:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 47:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Which is also just what everyone goes through in relationships. At some point, you have some sort of.

• 47:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 47:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Right? Symbolic sunglasses that you end up taking off and people are like, no way, or.

• 47:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, or they're like, okay, but you're so damaged that you're like, but I don't believe you. And so I refuse to, I refuse to allow it because I just won't believe it.

• 47:58Karen Kilgariff?

  And this guy who has harmed her irreparably, has gotten her to that point where it's like, well, then it'll just be me. I'll be the only one.

• 48:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Broke her.

• 48:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Broke her and like worked this system to his advantage in the most horrifying way.

• 48:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 48:16Karen Kilgariff?

  So Linda's convinced to give Bert a chance. And eight months after he walks out of prison for attacking her with lie, Linda accepts Bert's proposal and they get married.

• 48:28Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 48:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. The New York Daily News runs the.

• 48:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, they've lost their mind over at the media.

• 48:33Karen Kilgariff?

  The New York Daily News runs the front page headline, quote, "Woman Weds Man Who Blinded Her."

• 48:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus, okay.

• 48:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Many years later, The New York Times reports on the many factors that lead to Linda's decision to marry her abuser, noting, this is the list of the factors, quote, "A Christian sense of forgiveness, the advice of a fortune teller, the fear that another woman would scoop up Mr. Pugach, but mostly she cited her need to move forward." And then there's a quote from Linda saying, "If you're gonna remain bitter and obsessed, it will destroy you."

• 49:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, but you still don't need to...

• 49:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 49:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Tough.

• 49:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Misguided.

• 49:14Karen Kilgariff?

  That last line, of course, echoes Bert's own crazy obsession, but in his case, it seems to have gotten him exactly what he wanted.

• 49:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it worked.

• 49:23Karen Kilgariff?

  So, the surprise is that Bert and Linda stay married for decades.

• 49:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 49:27Karen Kilgariff?

  They settle into a strange, sometimes combative, but apparently functional partnership. But, instead of retreating to their own private life, they become media darlings. The couple does the round on talk shows, they sit for newspaper profiles, they lean into the tabloid coverage that so often frames their relationship as a quirky, twisted love story, instead of just a one long, strange cycle of abuse. Bert eventually starts working as a paralegal, and he even brags after their wedding, quote, "My incub doubled the first week, doubled, maybe tripled."

• 50:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Gross.

• 50:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Super gross. So, Bert knows how to stay in the headlines. More than two decades after marrying Linda in 1997, he's arrested again, this time for harassment. You heard that, right? While Linda is recovering from heart surgery, Bert meets a woman and begins a five-year affair with her.

• 50:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck you.

• 50:25Karen Kilgariff?

  So, this woman accuses Bert of threatening her life, even telling her he'd, quote, "blind her like Linda."

• 50:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 50:31Karen Kilgariff?

  If she ever refuses to see him. So, when this story comes out, in response, Bert insists he was never going to actually hurt her.

• 50:39Georgia Hardstark?

  I was just threatening this woman, okay.

• 50:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Even though your record is 1-0 of actually threatening to hurting. Meanwhile, Linda is, of course, furious, but stands by him. She tells reporters, quote, "For all intents and purposes, he's been a good husband. He sucks right now." Are you crying?

• 50:58Georgia Hardstark?

  No, I'm just so disturbed.

• 51:00Karen Kilgariff?

  I know, it's horrible.

• 51:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 51:02Karen Kilgariff?

  It's horrible and...

• 51:04Georgia Hardstark?

  So sad.

• 51:05Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so, like, one hallway going one direction. You have to get to the end, which is marriage.

• 51:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Anyway, possible.

• 51:13Karen Kilgariff?

  You have to. How do we... Do you think that women of today have fully incorporated this lesson? That alone is better than this?

• 51:24Georgia Hardstark?

  I think a larger percentage of women now, much larger, double, triple, probably understand that.

• 51:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 51:32Georgia Hardstark?

  But...

• 51:33Karen Kilgariff?

  It seems recent.

• 51:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 51:34Karen Kilgariff?

  That idea.

• 51:35Georgia Hardstark?

  It can't be. There can't be that many.

• 51:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. I guess you and I'll talk later. We'll talk after.

• 51:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 51:43Karen Kilgariff?

  So Bert gets arrested and has to go to trial for threatening this woman. Linda acts as a character witness at that trial.

• 51:51Georgia Hardstark?

  How are you gonna do that?

• 51:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you know? She's gonna walk in in her sunglasses.

• 51:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, he hasn't done that much bad stuff since he threw fucking lie in my face.

• 52:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, here's... It's a little... It's not as legit as it might sound because Bert is his own lawyer in this trial. So he's ultimately convicted of second-degree harassment. None of their plan works.

• 52:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 52:15Karen Kilgariff?

  He beats the stronger charges, so I guess that part does. He only serves 15 days in jail for threatening this woman. From here, life presses on for the two. In 2007, when Bert is around 80 years old and Linda's around 70 years old, they become the subject of the documentary Crazy Love. And director Dan Cloris tells The New York Times that Bert's possessiveness was still on full display during the filming. For example, Bert could not follow the very simple orders to stay away from Linda during the shoots. Cloris says, quote, "She didn't want him there. She wanted to talk. I told Bert not to come back for seven hours. Every hour, his key would be in the lock, and I would tell him to go away." Just like...

• 52:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 52:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Won't drop, won't...

• 53:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 53:01Karen Kilgariff?

  There's no boundaries.

• 53:02Georgia Hardstark?

  So controlling, yeah.

• 53:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. The film's release prompts another wave of coverage on the couple, which results in a very telling line from The Guardian reporter Mary Ann McDonald, who writes, quote, "Having spoken to Bert on the phone, I have taken an intense dislike to him already. Creepy man." So 2013, when Linda Riss is 75 years old, she dies of heart failure. Through sobs, Bert tells the Associated Press. That, that is, that's it for me right there.

• 53:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Associated Press.

• 53:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Through sobs, Bert tells the Associated Press. So you, did you just get right on the phone with the AP? He tells them, quote, "This was a very fairy tale romance."

• 53:43Georgia Hardstark?

  I am so, I mean, I guess in like, fuck, old school fairy tales. Yeah.

• 53:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, for Grimm's 1600s, German.

• 53:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Where children get eaten.

• 53:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Eaten and cooked.

• 53:53Georgia Hardstark?

  And everyone's parents dies. Yes, sir.

• 53:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Hardcore fairy tale.

• 53:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 53:59Karen Kilgariff?

  So over the years, Bert Pugach has expressed remorse for what he put Linda through, even establishing a foundation in her honor for the visually impaired.

• 54:08Georgia Hardstark?

  But he caused it. That's right. He caused.

• 54:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, he caused.

• 54:11Georgia Hardstark?

  You can't, it doesn't work that way.

• 54:13Karen Kilgariff?

  It doesn't. It certainly doesn't.

• 54:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 54:16Karen Kilgariff?

  He promised to leave that foundation 15, his 15 million dollar estate. But instead, when Bert dies on Christmas Eve in 2020, at the age of 93, every penny goes to, who would you, who would you think?

• 54:33Georgia Hardstark?

  The girlfriend who took him to court.

• 54:35Karen Kilgariff?

  A brand new one, a caregiver claiming to have been romantically involved with him in his final years.

• 54:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck, I mean, she got hers then. 15, how did he get 15 million dollars?

• 54:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, maybe it was his, from before, being a lawyer and he had some stashed away. He said his, his pay went up times three. I'm sure they sold stories. I'm sure they got paid to be in places. I don't know.

• 54:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 55:00Karen Kilgariff?

  As of 2021 reporting, Bert's estate is the subject of a lawsuit alleging that he had been coerced into changing his will ahead of his death. Unclear where that investigation stands today, but it's just one more bizarre twist in a saga that despite so much coverage, framing it this way, hardly feels like it can be called a love story. In fact, back in the late 70s, when Linda Riss was asked by a reporter if she ever loved Bert, her answer seemed pointedly elusive. She said, quote, "I don't even like the word. It's so hard to define." And that's the story of the crazy love of Linda Riss and Bert Pugach.

• 55:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 55:40Karen Kilgariff?

  I want to see a picture.

• 55:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. That's devastating.

• 55:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Insane.

• 55:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, man. Oh, she is so beautiful. Wow. That makes me sick.

• 55:50Karen Kilgariff?

  So.

• 55:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God. Well, great job.

• 55:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you.

• 55:57Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 56:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 56:06Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 56:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break-in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone, and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.

• 56:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year. 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.

• 56:53Karen Kilgariff?

  That's simplisafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in MFM at checkout, and it tells them we sent you, and it really helps the show.

• 57:00Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time.

• 57:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. We've all had moments where dealing with healthcare or insurance feels completely overwhelming.

• 57:09Georgia Hardstark?

  You're sick, worried about someone you love, trying to understand what comes next, and suddenly you're spending hours on hold, filling out paperwork, and trying to figure out who to call.

• 57:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Research shows patients spend the equivalent of an eight-hour workday every month coordinating their own care.

• 57:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Nobody hands you a roadmap when you're dealing with a diagnosis or ongoing health issues.

• 57:28Karen Kilgariff?

  That's why there's Solace Health.

• 57:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Solace provides personal healthcare advocates who average 16 years of healthcare experience and can help you get answers fast.

• 57:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Think of them as someone in your corner who understands the healthcare system and can handle the logistics while you focus on your health.

• 57:42Georgia Hardstark?

  They can help with appointments and Insurance denials, medical bills, treatment options, and understanding doctor recommendations.

• 57:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Research shows 92% of patients report a positive impact on their care from working with an advocate.

• 57:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocacy improves outcomes, and Solace advocates are covered by insurance nationwide.

• 57:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Eligibility varies by insurance plan.

• 58:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocates do not provide medical or legal advice or services. Must be 18 years or older.

• 58:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to solacehealth.com/murder to see if you qualify.

• 58:08Georgia Hardstark?

  It takes about two minutes, and it's covered by insurance.

• 58:10Karen Kilgariff?

  That's S.O.L.A.C.E. health.com/murder.

• 58:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 58:16Karen Kilgariff?

  You know a favorite M-word? Magnesium.

• 58:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's magnesium spray.

• 58:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals powered by pure Epsom salt and natural Dead Sea salt, it's designed to help you relax and get in the right state of mind for a good night's rest.

• 58:31Georgia Hardstark?

  If you need a reset after a crazy day, make Dr. Teal's magnesium spray part of your nighttime routine. It's an effortless way to get a boost of topical magnesium that can help you relax your body and mind before bedtime.

• 58:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Dr. Teal's magnesium spray comes in a lightweight, fast-drying formula.

• 58:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Just shake it up and generously spritz onto the soles of your feet and massage until absorbed.

• 58:50Karen Kilgariff?

  I was kind of blown away the first time I used this spray because I do have problems sleeping. And when there's something this simple, you just sprayed on your feet, and suddenly you're asleep, and the next morning you're like, wait, what happened? Did my problem just get solved? Like, it actually is that easy.

• 59:05Georgia Hardstark?

  And your stinky feet now smell like lavender. Like, what more do you want?

• 59:08Karen Kilgariff?

  How dare you call my feet stinky?

• 59:11Georgia Hardstark?

  For wellness, you can feel fine Dr. Teal's magnesium spray online or in your local bath aisle.

• 59:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 59:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 59:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Now it's your turn. Now it's my turn. And we're gonna take a turn.

• 59:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, great.

• 59:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Not right away.

• 59:29Georgia Hardstark?

  This is about a not-well-known war that took place in Western Australia in the 1930s.

• 59:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 59:38Georgia Hardstark?

  That, I mean, it's so not well-known that we got one email from a listener about it in the Gmail. That's it.

• 59:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 59:44Georgia Hardstark?

  But I think it's gonna be your new favorite war.

• 59:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 59:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Because I know you have so many.

• 59:49Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, yeah, it's gonna be tough.

• 59:53Karen Kilgariff?

  I'd say my first favorite war is MASH.

• 59:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna start cold and I'll tell you what it's called.

• 1:00:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:00:02Georgia Hardstark?

  In a moment.

• 1:00:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, I'll wait.

• 1:00:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Please wait.

• 1:00:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:00:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Please hold. So, we're in the aftermath of World War I. Thousands of veterans, who are nicknamed Soldier Seddlers, moved to Western Australia. And it's a vast area with a huge array of climates. There's tropical coast up north, desert in the interior, a Mediterranean climate similar to parts of California on the southwestern coast. It's a fucking beautiful place we should all move to.

• 1:00:28Karen Kilgariff?

  We should.

• 1:00:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't you think?

• 1:00:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Remember, we did like, a tour which was kind of southeastern?

• 1:00:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, we didn't go to Perth.

• 1:00:34Karen Kilgariff?

  We didn't go to Perth.

• 1:00:35Georgia Hardstark?

  They were mad.

• 1:00:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Dang.

• 1:00:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Next time. So, the Australian government has bought thousands of tracts of land to sell to the soldiers at discounted prices in an effort to reward the men for their service with farmland to develop and profit from. So, they're trying to, you know, expand.

• 1:00:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Give back, yeah.

• 1:00:52Georgia Hardstark?

  There are more than 5,000 soldiers who buy land under the scheme. And the problem is that the amount of land with good soil for farming in Western Australia is kinda low. So, many of these soldiers are stuck out on tracks with low-quality soil and a host of other issues that haven't really been thought through. In the end, most of these soldiers wind up raising sheep and planting wheat, which is what's most suited to the climate. And in the 1920s, there's actually a string of really good years. The wheat grows well, the farmers are insulated a bit from bad years by selling wool from the sheep, and everyone is making money. Everything's fine. Then, in 1929, your favorite Great Depression happens. The Great Depression.

• 1:01:35Karen Kilgariff?

  The Great.

• 1:01:36Georgia Hardstark?

  The Greatest.

• 1:01:36Karen Kilgariff?

  The Greatest Depression.

• 1:01:37Georgia Hardstark?

  I was falling asleep last night to The World According to Kunk, by Philomena Kunk.

• 1:01:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Of course. So funny.

• 1:01:43Georgia Hardstark?

  It's truly one of the best books ever written, period.

• 1:01:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, I thought you were talking about the TV show. You're listening to the book.

• 1:01:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, the audiobook I was listening to.

• 1:01:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, okay, got it.

• 1:01:51Georgia Hardstark?

  At first, when the Great Depression starts, the price of wheat stays pretty stable. Other prices for goods tank in Australia. So, the government pushes a big initiative to get farmers to produce more wheat because it's selling. Hey.

• 1:02:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Great.

• 1:02:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's just do it. The slogan they come up with for the farmers to grow more wheat is, let me guess?

• 1:02:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey, it's wheat time, guys.

• 1:02:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Nope. It's, it's more complicated. It's just grow more wheat.

• 1:02:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Damn it.

• 1:02:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Should have had you on their creative team.

• 1:02:20Karen Kilgariff?

  God damn it.

• 1:02:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, the Australian Prime Minister promises the farmers that the government will buy the wheat at a good price. Australian farmers enthusiastically take him up on this offer vastly expanding their wheat production.

• 1:02:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm.

• 1:02:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Right? By the, by the early 1930s, there's a new prime minister. That always fucking happens. You never, you never plan for that.

• 1:02:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Every time it happens, yep.

• 1:02:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, that's Joseph Lyons and the global price of wheat tanks.

• 1:02:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm.

• 1:02:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Tanks for nothing. Uh, the government.

• 1:02:52Karen Kilgariff?

  You acted like you were reading off the page.

• 1:02:55Georgia Hardstark?

  It was. Good one. The government, which already is facing a massive deficit, actually goes back on the previous prime minister's promise because they can do that.

• 1:03:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:03Georgia Hardstark?

  So the situation is already fairly bleak at this point by October of 1932. That's where we are. When that year's wheat harvest is supposed to start. Farmers in the town, I'm gonna get these wrong, Australians, I'm real sorry. Farmers near the towns of Campion and Walgulin. That sounds right.

• 1:03:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Report an issue. So this area is one of the drier parts of the state and it wasn't as well suited to farming already. Right before the farmers are meant to start harvesting their wheat on this land, a plague overtakes the farms and wreaks havoc on the crops. They trample, they devour, they're more than a nuisance, they're a downright pestilence of epic proportions. This is the story of the Great Emu War.

• 1:03:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, wow. What?

• 1:03:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Emu.

• 1:03:55Karen Kilgariff?

  All of a sudden, these poor soldier gentlemen farmers.

• 1:04:00Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like, it's already not going great.

• 1:04:01Karen Kilgariff?

  They're just trying to make the best of it and suddenly.

• 1:04:04Georgia Hardstark?

  They talk their wife into coming, it's gonna be great, we're gonna be farmers, we're gonna own land.

• 1:04:08Karen Kilgariff?

  It's okay, it's, you're afraid of birds, that's fine, there's hardly any birds out here.

• 1:04:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, no, it's totally fine, it's Australia, what could go wrong? Uh, I mean, wild animal, why is not?

• 1:04:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Snakes, snakes, crocs.

• 1:04:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Ah, okay. Um, and big shout out to my researcher, Ally Elkin, for even coming up with this story because

• 1:04:26Karen Kilgariff?

  So good.

• 1:04:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I saw it and responded in all caps because it was so exciting, you know?

• 1:04:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:04:31Georgia Hardstark?

  So let me tell you a little bit about emus, since I don't know how familiar you are with them.

• 1:04:36Karen Kilgariff?

  I, I could be thinking of kiwi, which is the small bird.

• 1:04:39Georgia Hardstark?

  You're, you're, it's not a kiwi. This is the large one that looks kinda like a.

• 1:04:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Ostrich?

• 1:04:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:04:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:04:45Georgia Hardstark?

  So emus are actually native to Australia, and I wrote, like Charlize Theron. Wait, that's not right. Is she?

• 1:04:52Karen Kilgariff?

  No, I think she's South African.

• 1:04:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit. You know who I met? I met Nicole Kidman.

• 1:04:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yes.

• 1:04:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, Barbie, I met Barbie.

• 1:04:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Margot Robbie.

• 1:05:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Margot Robbie's, fuck, man, I can't even get that. Don't believe a word I say.

• 1:05:05Karen Kilgariff?

  You had so many choices.

• 1:05:06Georgia Hardstark?

  I did, just blonde, beautiful actresses, and I picked the wrong fucking one. They're the world's second or third largest bird. I couldn't tell based on searching, right? They're right after ostriches, so ostriches are bigger than them. Then there's emus.

• 1:05:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:05:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Emus are considered one of the closest living relatives to dinosaurs.

• 1:05:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:05:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Right?

• 1:05:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:05:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Particularly to raptors.

• 1:05:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, man.

• 1:05:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. They're the only species of bird that has calf muscles.

• 1:05:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Whoa, that's so creepy.

• 1:05:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Isn't that creepy?

• 1:05:36Karen Kilgariff?

  And little, uh, like, fighting Irish tattoos on those calf muscles, even worse.

• 1:05:42Georgia Hardstark?

  And they can jump seven feet high, they can sprint for short distances of 40 miles per hour.

• 1:05:48Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 1:05:48Georgia Hardstark?

  That's fast.

• 1:05:49Karen Kilgariff?

  That is very.

• 1:05:49Georgia Hardstark?

  That's like on the freeway here. And that's actually about the speed of an average racehorse, too. So they're fucking fast little shit.

• 1:05:56Karen Kilgariff?

  They're fast.

• 1:05:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Emus have a pouch in their throat that they use to make deep, booming, and grunting sounds for communications that are loud.

• 1:06:05Karen Kilgariff?

  You know I was gonna say that.

• 1:06:08Georgia Hardstark?

  This is YouTube, particularly during breeding season.

• 1:06:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey.

• 1:06:12Georgia Hardstark?

  And then here is where, note to Georgia, Ally put a video of an emu running to see how fast it could go. And then I got into a fucking rabbit hole of emu videos.

• 1:06:23Karen Kilgariff?

  How'd it go?

• 1:06:24Georgia Hardstark?

  I wrote zoomies, because emus get zoomies. Emus playing fetch with a little girl, dog and baby, there's one with a dog and a baby emu playing. They're fucking adorable.

• 1:06:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so is this like, people now have emu farms, like they're raising them like ostriches?

• 1:06:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 1:06:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:06:42Georgia Hardstark?

  So yeah, so I went down this rabbit hole. I saw them run. It totally looked like the beginning of Jurassic Park with all these long necks, just like, they're really fun, and I want one now.

• 1:06:51Karen Kilgariff?

  And you're, yes, I was gonna say, and you're like, but Vince, come on, just one more.

• 1:06:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Come on, we gotta save the emus. And actually, some emus can be gentle and affectionate if they're raised that way from a young age, but others can be aggressive and moody, especially if they're not socialized property.

• 1:07:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Dito.

• 1:07:08Georgia Hardstark?

  And they may react angrily to being touched or handled.

• 1:07:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey, what's up?

• 1:07:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So, they have tiny wings, so they're flightless, but they're known to migrate very long distances in search of food and water. In the past, emus typically moved through this area that we're in, toward the coast, without staying long before. But there's been a drought in 1932, and the creation of this new farmland has both cleared areas of vegetation and obstacles, and has established new water sources for livestock and irrigation. It's the perfect place for emus. So, in this area, in this time period, guess how many migratory emus visit this area at once?

• 1:07:56Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm gonna go ahead and say...

• 1:07:57Georgia Hardstark?

  You don't have to guess if you don't want to.

• 1:08:00Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, look, I don't want to guess, but I have to guess. No, I really want to.

• 1:08:04Georgia Hardstark?

  You have one emu standing here. How many do you think fucking showed up for the Great Emu War?

• 1:08:09Karen Kilgariff?

  500?

• 1:08:11Georgia Hardstark?

  20,000.

• 1:08:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Who what?

• 1:08:13Georgia Hardstark?

  20 fucking thousand emus.

• 1:08:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh no.

• 1:08:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Onto this like smallish area.

• 1:08:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Cause also they're eating that wheat.

• 1:08:23Georgia Hardstark?

  They're eating the wheat. Yep, they're drinking all the irrigated water. They're like stomping, they're trampling, they're like wreaking havoc.

• 1:08:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Partying.

• 1:08:32Georgia Hardstark?

  They're fucking partying.

• 1:08:33Karen Kilgariff?

  This is their kind of, what do you call it, Burning Man? It's a 1932 early Burning Man.

• 1:08:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 1:08:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Emu style.

• 1:08:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey, meet me on the playa.

• 1:08:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey, man, be yourself.

• 1:08:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, to put that number in perspective, Ally, let me know that 20,000 emus would fill your typical arena where an NBA team would play. It's the exact capacity of the crypto.com arena. Cause so imagine playing basketball and then you look up into the crowd and it's fucking just wall to wall emus.

• 1:09:00Karen Kilgariff?

  And they're like doing weird shit like they're gonna come down.

• 1:09:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, they're like getting ready to, and they're dinosaurs.

• 1:09:05Karen Kilgariff?

  They're dinosaurs, same amount of feathers as ostriches?

• 1:09:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, I think so, yeah. Yeah, they're similar to ostriches.

• 1:09:12Karen Kilgariff?

  You would think it was an ostrich.

• 1:09:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, you would, you would, yeah. You'd get it wrong and you wouldn't be stupid.

• 1:09:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:09:18Georgia Hardstark?

  For it.

• 1:09:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's what we keep telling ourselves.

• 1:09:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, um, and to make matters worse, high tariffs imposed in the post-war and depression area have made wire netting prohibitively expensive.

• 1:09:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:09:31Georgia Hardstark?

  So they can't afford to fence out the emus, that's not a choice. I know. So.

• 1:09:36Karen Kilgariff?

  It's literally a perfect storm.

• 1:09:37Georgia Hardstark?

  It is. So the farmers, who are all vets, remember, they're all veterans to World War I.

• 1:09:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:43Georgia Hardstark?

  They do the level-headed thing and they write to the Minister of Defence, asking to sup- asking to be supplied with machine guns to kill the emus, as you do.

• 1:09:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, the problem is, and I think we've talked about this a lot, of like, it's sheer numbers where it's like, if it was 500 emus.

• 1:10:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:10:00Karen Kilgariff?

  They would be a little more reasonable. 20,000 of these birds.

• 1:10:05Georgia Hardstark?

  20,000. And then, so maybe because the government has jerked these farmers around so many times with the price of wheat already, like they kind of know they're in trouble with these farmers already. They want to appear like they're helping them, so the minister says yes to the gun request. But since the government of Australia has smart brains that think in a normal way, machine guns are tightly regulated there.

• 1:10:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:10:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Can you imagine?

• 1:10:28Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, what a, what a world to live in. But also, they, just because the, the farmer soldiers asked for machine guns, why can't they just have regular guns?

• 1:10:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, they wanted machine guns.

• 1:10:41Karen Kilgariff?

  I know.

• 1:10:41Georgia Hardstark?

  It sounds more fun, probably. They're probably bored out of their fucking minds at this point.

• 1:10:45Karen Kilgariff?

  And they're enraged.

• 1:10:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Enraged. So instead, three specially trained soldiers are sent from Perth to the region to operate the machine guns.

• 1:10:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:10:54Georgia Hardstark?

  It's really like, everyone doesn't get a machine gun.

• 1:10:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Great.

• 1:10:56Georgia Hardstark?

  These three guys get a machine gun.

• 1:10:58Karen Kilgariff?

  We'll send machine guns to you.

• 1:11:00Georgia Hardstark?

  With people who can operate them.

• 1:11:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Good plan.

• 1:11:03Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's not just like a little machine gun that you can hold and operate and move around with. It's a huge tube that needs to be propped up. It has a wheel of bullets. It's like, you know, a World War I type gun.

• 1:11:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:13Georgia Hardstark?

  The rest of the farmers are allowed to help shoot at the emus, but they have to use boring old regular rifles.

• 1:11:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:11:20Georgia Hardstark?

  So the farmers also agree to house the three military specialists and to pay for the ammunition for the guns. It's not the greatest deal.

• 1:11:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Plan or deal for them?

• 1:11:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:11:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, but I, you do have to do that thing where like, after a while, you're like, sure, but you did agree to do this huge crazy thing.

• 1:11:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, that's true.

• 1:11:38Karen Kilgariff?

  And like, in...

• 1:11:38Georgia Hardstark?

  But under what pretenses? Like, were they lies?

• 1:11:42Karen Kilgariff?

  True. Where it's like, oh, you can farm this beautiful area, but it's Australia, so it's like, it's all snakes and spiders.

• 1:11:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:49Karen Kilgariff?

  They can't, the expectation couldn't have been...

• 1:11:52Georgia Hardstark?

  And no emus.

• 1:11:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Easy breezy.

• 1:11:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, there was no cla, no emu clause.

• 1:11:56Karen Kilgariff?

  No emu clause. We guarantee no large bird will come at you en masse.

• 1:12:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Legit dinosaur.

• 1:12:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, hordes of them.

• 1:12:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Okay, so the army specialists are overseen by a man named Major Gwynedd Purvis Wyn Aubrey Meredith is his name.

• 1:12:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Or his six first names?

• 1:12:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Cool.

• 1:12:15Georgia Hardstark?

  And so he's there overseeing it, and then a cinematographer also joins the group to film the anti-emu offensive.

• 1:12:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:12:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Which is great.

• 1:12:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:12:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Presumably because people in the Australian government believed it would be successful. They're like, let's send a cameraman out there, and this will be great propaganda for like, what we do for our farmers. The soldiers arrive on November 2nd, 1932, and the war begins. On the first day they arrive, a flock of 50 emus is spotted at one of the farms, so they set up their guns on some nearby high ground. The guns jam almost immediately and the emus scatter.

• 1:12:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Ooh.

• 1:12:50Georgia Hardstark?

  The next day, the soldiers have a bit more success when they set up ambushes around water sources, but immediately proves to be very slow going. Between the rifles and the machine guns, the soldiers are able to pick off about, out of 20,000 emus in one day, they pick off about 12 emus, max, before the rest of the flock has scurried out of range.

• 1:13:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:11Georgia Hardstark?

  So in a day's work, that's 12 emus out of 20,000, and that's a good day, it turns out.

• 1:13:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:13:17Georgia Hardstark?

  The farmers and the military have woefully underestimated their adversaries. I told you about how fast they are, and I told you about how they have calf muscles, so they're like...

• 1:13:26Karen Kilgariff?

  So they're cool.

• 1:13:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Kinda hot.

• 1:13:28Georgia Hardstark?

  The soldiers that were sent to the farms, they start getting nervous. They've been instructed by one of their commanding officers to bring back at least 100 emu skins, because emu feathers are used to decorate the ceremonial helmets for a particular military unit in Australia. So this commanding officer was like, hey, this is a great way to get a bunch of fucking emus. But it's becoming increasingly apparent that killing any emus, let alone 100, to bring back is not going to be easy.

• 1:13:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Because the emus have now started to appoint their own officers.

• 1:14:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:14:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Who act as scouts for the rest of the flock.

• 1:14:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Yes.

• 1:14:07Georgia Hardstark?

  They're fucking smart.

• 1:14:08Karen Kilgariff?

  They went back to headquarters and they said, sorry, those guys on the hill do not want what's best for us.

• 1:14:14Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:14:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Something's going down.

• 1:14:15Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. One emu work correspondent wrote at the time, quote, "The emus have proved that they are not so stupid as they are usually considered to be," because they do run around like fucking idiots. Like, they do run around like...

• 1:14:26Karen Kilgariff?

  They look goofy.

• 1:14:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Like turkeys.

• 1:14:28Karen Kilgariff?

  But it doesn't mean they're dumb.

• 1:14:29Georgia Hardstark?

  No. He says, "Each mob has its leader, always an enormous, black-plumed bird standing fully six feet high, who keeps watch while his fellows busy themselves with the wheat." At the first suspicious sign, he gives a signal and dozens of heads stretch up out of the crop. Dinosaurs. A few birds will take fright, starting a headlong stampede into the scrub, the leader always remaining until his followers have reached safety.

• 1:14:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:14:57Georgia Hardstark?

  End quote.

• 1:14:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Shit.

• 1:14:59Georgia Hardstark?

  So fucking Papa Bear is like, hey, guys, here they are.

• 1:15:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, scatter. We've survived for hundreds of millions of years, so we got this.

• 1:15:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, we're fucking dinosaurs.

• 1:15:09Karen Kilgariff?

  No one panicked.

• 1:15:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Remember those cavemen?

• 1:15:11Karen Kilgariff?

  I've.

• 1:15:12Georgia Hardstark?

  From back then?

• 1:15:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Remember those fools?

• 1:15:14Georgia Hardstark?

  From like, real recently?

• 1:15:15Karen Kilgariff?

  They barely made it. It's those guys. These are cousins of those guys.

• 1:15:18Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, they're gonna kill us, they're cousins. After the first week of the Emu War, it is reported that the group have used 2,500 rounds of ammunition to kill just 300 Emus.

• 1:15:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:15:31Georgia Hardstark?

  And that's a generous estimate that comes from one of the military specialists. And you know, they fucking raise those numbers.

• 1:15:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Absolutely.

• 1:15:37Georgia Hardstark?

  So, I'm gonna read you this quote. The one person who wrote to our Gmail about, like, you guys should cover this story.

• 1:15:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:15:43Georgia Hardstark?

  It's really crazy, is someone named Zagreedy, she/her. And Zagreedy included a quote from someone named John P. Rafferty that came from the Wikipedia. So here is that quote that Zagreedy included.

• 1:15:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:15:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Quote, "The machine gunners' dream of point-blank fire into serried masses of Emus were soon dissipated. The Emu Command had evidently ordered guerrilla tactics, and its unwieldy army soon split up into innumerable small units that made use of the military equipment uneconomic." Meaning, like, you're wasting your fucking bullets.

• 1:16:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 1:16:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Meanwhile, in Parliament, Prime Minister Joseph Lyons, remember him? Is now facing questions about the expense of the Emu War. One of the members of Parliament from Sydney asked sarcastically if any of the parties involved in the Emu War should be receiving a medal.

• 1:16:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Harsh.

• 1:16:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And someone says, if anyone should be getting a medal, it should be the emus. Sounds like a fun parliament.

• 1:16:39Karen Kilgariff?

  It's true.

• 1:16:40Georgia Hardstark?

  After two weeks, the emus seem to have learned the range of the machine guns. They fucking, you can't, you can't hit me this far. You can't get me. I'm out of your range.

• 1:16:49Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like when you can't leave the part of the couch that you have won.

• 1:16:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:16:54Karen Kilgariff?

  So then your sister just walks just out of range of like, well, then I'll go get myself like a cookie and you can't have one.

• 1:17:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. They set up shop in the wheat fields just out of that range and move every time the soldiers reposition themselves, scatter when the farmers get close with the rifles. All this scattering and running is also causing the emus to trample more wheat than they would have if you had never started this fucking emu war. After the most successful day of the war, where maybe two dozen emus are killed, R I P. One of the military specialists examines one of the dead emus and finds that it has five bullets in its body, some of which are clearly old wounds from the beginning of the campaign.

• 1:17:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh shit.

• 1:17:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Which means that the emus are staying alive and running at close to full speed, even after being shot multiple times. Like they're fucking Terminator.

• 1:17:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. They're like, oh no, we're going to win this.

• 1:17:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Isn't that creepy? Like it's extending a message with his body. It's looking more and more like the emus will win the war until suddenly on December 2nd, the war is called off. I think they're like, let's cut our fucking losses.

• 1:18:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, this is insanity.

• 1:18:02Georgia Hardstark?

  The soldiers claimed to have killed between 1,000 and 2,000 emus out of roughly 20,000 that were in the combat zone. And the emus seem to become a part of life for the farmers at this point, having bested the soldiers. Still, in future years, the soldier settlers will continue to request machine guns to fight up the fucking emus because I'm about to reproduce them. But the Australian Ministry of Defense will turn them down every time. Instead, the soldier settlers are supplied with additional rifles and eventually they become more successful at fending off the emus on their own.

• 1:18:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Picking them off one at a time.

• 1:18:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Between the 1940s and 1960s, the farmers kill more than 200,000 of them under A bounty system.

• 1:18:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:18:44Georgia Hardstark?

  That's a lot. PETA doesn't like that.

• 1:18:46Karen Kilgariff?

  No, that's bad.

• 1:18:47Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, they're so cute. Little babies are, they're so cute.

• 1:18:50Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, can't it be like you just get rid of enough so that your stuff isn't at risk?

• 1:18:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:18:56Karen Kilgariff?

  It always has to be this like, now they've killed 200,000 and there aren't, now they're endangered.

• 1:19:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, exactly. Okay, so then later, eventually, the price of fencing comes down. And this becomes a much more practical way to deal with emus than fucking killing hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of them. Then in 1999, emus become a protected species in Australia.

• 1:19:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yay.

• 1:19:18Georgia Hardstark?

  And there are about 600,000 of them living in Australia today, which is considered a strong population.

• 1:19:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm.

• 1:19:24Georgia Hardstark?

  So.

• 1:19:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Good.

• 1:19:25Georgia Hardstark?

  They're back baby.

• 1:19:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Good, good, good. All riddled with bullets and old wounds.

• 1:19:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah, grandpa is telling the stories about how he survived the emu war.

• 1:19:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, they, they got, they got me with this one. I just kept running.

• 1:19:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Major Meredith, remember him with the really long name? He goes on to have a storied military career, having already served in World War I. He also serves in World War II and in the Korean War with distinction, but I bet that emu war stuck in his craw.

• 1:19:51Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the one.

• 1:19:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't you think?

• 1:19:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:52Georgia Hardstark?

  The one he fucking couldn't win.

• 1:19:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:54Georgia Hardstark?

  And that is the story of the Great Emu War.

• 1:20:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Totally insane.

• 1:20:01Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, I want to see pictures of it.

• 1:20:02Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so good.

• 1:20:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Here's a farmer with an emu, dead emu.

• 1:20:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:20:06Georgia Hardstark?

  It's pretty sad.

• 1:20:07Karen Kilgariff?

  He's all mad.

• 1:20:08Georgia Hardstark?

  He's a big bird, right?

• 1:20:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that is a big old bird.

• 1:20:11Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, he's saying, "Crikey."

• 1:20:14Karen Kilgariff?

  He's saying, "My calves." "Please, my calves."

• 1:20:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Um.

• 1:20:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:20:20Georgia Hardstark?

  All right.

• 1:20:20Karen Kilgariff?

  That was great.

• 1:20:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. Thank you, Ally, for finding that in the depths of the internet.

• 1:20:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Nice one, Ally.

• 1:20:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:26Karen Kilgariff?

  I really didn't understand what we were doing at the beginning.

• 1:20:29Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:20:29Karen Kilgariff?

  But it was fun.

• 1:20:30Georgia Hardstark?

  What'd you think was gonna happen?

• 1:20:32Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't know, but I'm really happy to hear, like, the idea that, like, here's how we're, we're gonna use sheer brute force to solve a problem.

• 1:20:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:40Karen Kilgariff?

  And then that problem's like, you're not going to, though.

• 1:20:43Georgia Hardstark?

  That doesn't work that way.

• 1:20:44Karen Kilgariff?

  That's always, I think, a better... You know, it's good. It helps people evolve better ideas.

• 1:20:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, you gotta learn how to live in harmony with nature.

• 1:20:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:53Georgia Hardstark?

  You get your ass kicked if not.

• 1:20:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Or how about somebody figures out cheap barbed wire, you fools? You could have saved yourself so much time.

• 1:21:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Okay, so let's do fucking arrays and then we're also gonna do our own fucking arrays, which I love because it like makes me think throughout my week like what's going well and what's going on. You know what I mean?

• 1:21:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, I think that was one of the ideas when we originally thought of this was kind of like focusing on, on the positive and gratitude and stuff like that.

• 1:21:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Pay attention to the good things.

• 1:21:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:22Georgia Hardstark?

  So mine is that I finally bought and put together my, my very self, put together one of those bird feeders that have a camera and an app on it that you can see who's eaten your bird feed. So far, it's a squirrel and an adorable mouse and that's it.

• 1:21:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:21:40Georgia Hardstark?

  So it's not going great.

• 1:21:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, you're, it's kind of your urban version where you need to get the, you need to get the birds.

• 1:21:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:47Karen Kilgariff?

  There.

• 1:21:47Georgia Hardstark?

  But the squirrel's like, he's like angry. It's been really fun watching him try to figure out how to get to it. And he did, or she did and.

• 1:21:54Karen Kilgariff?

  They finally made it.

• 1:21:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, like, it'd be like, hey, you have an animal and be like climbing the tree near it, clearly trying to like, jump somehow.

• 1:22:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:02Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like, it's charming, but.

• 1:22:04Karen Kilgariff?

  There's a whole adventure. You know, we got my dad that for Christmas.

• 1:22:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:07Karen Kilgariff?

  We still, no one's put it up. We're like, well, he's not gonna put it up.

• 1:22:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:22:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Me and Laura not gonna put it up.

• 1:22:11Georgia Hardstark?

  It's kinda hard.

• 1:22:12Karen Kilgariff?

  I guess we have to task rabbit it somehow, but.

• 1:22:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, I can do it now.

• 1:22:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, great. If you wouldn't mind driving it.

• 1:22:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Not at all. What's yours?

• 1:22:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, I'm gonna do a fucking hurry that is as superficial as possible. The thing that's been really getting me through like the last month is just like a timed, like a timed and planned morning latte.

• 1:22:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 1:22:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Where it's like this little special kickoff.

• 1:22:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Treat.

• 1:22:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 1:22:39Karen Kilgariff?

  That then, I don't know why, it's just that thing where it's like, instead of like waking up and just being like, soldier through it, like get, get these things done or start whatever. It's like, no, no, no. It's like.

• 1:22:50Georgia Hardstark?

  It's latte time.

• 1:22:51Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a little like, I'm still laying in bed and then I get it, I order it and I pick it up. And then it's just my little thing that gets me from like

• 1:22:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:59Karen Kilgariff?

  this block of time to that block of time.

• 1:23:01Georgia Hardstark?

  That is so hugely important in your day to day life, I think.

• 1:23:04Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm very inspired by the millennials and the Gen Z'ers who are always about like, get yourself a little treat.

• 1:23:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:11Karen Kilgariff?

  They're real big into that.

• 1:23:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, because they're like, hey, guess what? If I don't do this, I'm still not going to be able to afford a house. So I'm going to fucking do it.

• 1:23:18Karen Kilgariff?

  So.

• 1:23:18Georgia Hardstark?

  And have a daily fucking moment of joy.

• 1:23:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, get aggro about finding your little things of joy. So you can go from little piece of joy to little piece of joy.

• 1:23:28Georgia Hardstark?

  It's very important.

• 1:23:28Karen Kilgariff?

  It's very nice approach.

• 1:23:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, now we're going to read yours. You guys can comment them anywhere you want, on Instagram, on all the places.

• 1:23:36Karen Kilgariff?

  LinkedIn.

• 1:23:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Get over there.

• 1:23:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh, dot net.

• 1:23:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Dot biz.

• 1:23:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Dot biz, YouTube. We have YouTube up now and you can comment your fucking hoorays there. So here are yours. You want me to go first?

• 1:23:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Sure.

• 1:23:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. This one, fucking yay for fucking hooray.

• 1:23:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Nice.

• 1:23:51Georgia Hardstark?

  It's from our email. Hi ladies and everyone at Exactly Right. Today I accepted my dream job as an elementary school librarian.

• 1:23:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:23:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I remember mine.

• 1:24:00Karen Kilgariff?

  So important.

• 1:24:00Georgia Hardstark?

  I have worked so hard for this and I cannot wait to help kids see themselves in the books they read, especially now when reading and books are under attack by our government. SSDGM and always remember to fight for libraries and for public education. Manny, he/him.

• 1:24:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you, Manny.

• 1:24:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Great job, Manny.

• 1:24:17Karen Kilgariff?

  You're so right. Now that libraries and books are under attack from our government.

• 1:24:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Is a true statement being made on this podcast in 2025.

• 1:24:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Manny is sallying forth.

• 1:24:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Manny is kicking ass. Thank you. And thank you to all librarians.

• 1:24:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Definitely. Okay, you go.

• 1:24:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, well, this one is, uh, it says, my fucking hooray is fast food chili? Question mark, question mark. This was sent into the, uh, my favorite murder Gmail. It says, yep, it sure is. After avoiding Wendy's chili my entire life due to the notion of errant floating thumbs in it. I was finally brave enough to order it after listening to Karen's recent deep dive. I'm happy to report that the chili is pretty damn decent.

• 1:25:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:25:06Karen Kilgariff?

  And honestly, in this motherfucking upside down world, having one more decent option for lunch is in fact a fucking hooray. I mean, right? And then it says, so thanks Karen. I also told my boyfriend he should start eating walnuts before drinking his coffee because I heard on a podcast that it's good for your esophagus and heartburn. He looked at me quizzically and said, but you only listen to murder podcasts.

• 1:25:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:30Karen Kilgariff?

  I replied, yep, that's where I heard about it. So I guess TBD on whether or not he takes the advice. Thanks crew for all you do. Lindsay.

• 1:25:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, Lindsay, thanks.

• 1:25:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Lindsay's just turning it all around.

• 1:25:42Georgia Hardstark?

  I love it. Chili. My last one's from Instagram. My hashtag fucking array is that on Sunday I completed MFM. That's my first marathon.

• 1:25:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey.

• 1:25:54Georgia Hardstark?

  It was hashtag fucking hard, but I finished in three hours, 48 minutes and raised 1.5K for a local cat rescue.

• 1:26:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey.

• 1:26:02Georgia Hardstark?

  It's at Pad Paws Animal Rescue, who specialize in senior, sick and hard to adopt cats. I also volunteer and foster for them. They rock. I conquered a bout of flu and a dog attack during my training. Jesus.

• 1:26:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:26:16Georgia Hardstark?

  And I'm pretty fucking pleased with myself. MFM kept me going through many long runs. Love the pod. Now to ice my old knees at, and it's Sophia with a ton of S's in the beginning and a ton of A's at the end.

• 1:26:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Sophia.

• 1:26:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, Pad Paws Animal Rescue. Everyone, go follow them.

• 1:26:34Karen Kilgariff?

  That's a great one.

• 1:26:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow, Sophia's getting it all done.

• 1:26:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, same with this person. This is also from the email and the subject line of it is, want to be on stage with Bernie Sanders? And then it says, last week I got this text from my friend and union president, and then in parentheses it says, I'm her VP, asking me if I want to be on stage at the Fighting Oligarchy Tour stop in Folsom, California the next day.

• 1:26:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:26:57Karen Kilgariff?

  The answer was obviously yes, and that's how I ended up in the VIP section directly behind AOC and Bernie, representing my local and state teachers' union. The event was huge. We could see the constant stream of people coming in the whole time. It was surreal and it filled me with such hope in this very dark time.

• 1:27:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:27:16Karen Kilgariff?

  My face made it on national news today. And then in parentheses it says, look for me in the pink sunglasses.

• 1:27:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Cute.

• 1:27:22Karen Kilgariff?

  And then it says, it blows my mind that my coworkers and I were part of history that night. Good will prevail if we stand together. When we fight, we win. Rachel.

• 1:27:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Amazing, Rachel.

• 1:27:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Hell yes, Rachel. Great job.

• 1:27:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Great work.

• 1:27:37Karen Kilgariff?

  And thank you, teachers and teachers' unions.

• 1:27:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep.

• 1:27:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Fighting for education.

• 1:27:43Georgia Hardstark?

  For their children, not just for their children, for everyone's children, even the people who are fighting against them.

• 1:27:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep. All of those children still get fought for because we gotta do this and stand up against straight up fucking fascism in America in 2025.

• 1:27:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Amen. And thank you, guys, for listening. We appreciate you being here, staying strong.

• 1:28:05Karen Kilgariff?

  We're locking arms together, audio-wise, spiritually, emotionally. Stay sexy.

• 1:28:11Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered.

• 1:28:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 1:28:15Speaker 02

  Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 1:28:24Karen Kilgariff?

  This has been an Exactly Right production.

• 1:28:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith.

• 1:28:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

• 1:28:30Georgia Hardstark?

  This episode was mixed by Leona Scolacci.

• 1:28:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

• 1:28:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Email your hometowns to [email protected].

• 1:28:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.

• 1:28:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:28:46Karen Kilgariff?

  And now you can watch us on Exactly Right's YouTube page. While you're there, please like and subscribe. Goodbye.

• 1:28:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Vacation planning should feel like a breeze, not a deep dive into countless travel sites searching for the best deal.

• 1:29:04Georgia Hardstark?

  With CheapCaribbean's Budget Beach Finder, you can search every destination and every date all in one search.

• 1:29:10Karen Kilgariff?

  You'll save time and money with the Budget Beach Finder.

• 1:29:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Say goodbye to endless scrolling and tab hopping and hello to Budget Beach Bliss at your fingertips.

• 1:29:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to cheapcaribbean.com to try out the Budget Beach Finder and see just how stress-free vacation planning should be. Goodbye.

• 1:29:26Speaker 03

  She's been thinking about this sleepover all week, but I think about her food allergies all the time. Fortunately, her doctor prescribed Zolair, omalizumab. It's proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens.

• 1:29:39Speaker 04

  Zolair 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people one year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Zolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Zolair. Zolair may cause a severe, life-threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Zolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. Zolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis, while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or hardened circulation problems have been reported. Please see zolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Zolair.

• 1:30:22Speaker 04

  This is an advertisement for Zolair, paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

• 1:30:26Speaker 05

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