Steven Pressfield: Battle Resistance, Master Your Craft, & Pursue Your Calling

Here to wax poetic on all things creativity, battling resistance, and answering your calling is wise master of the creative process Steven Pressfield, returning for his second appearance on the show (his first being episode #584). Steven is a prolific writer and thinker known for his profound insights into the creative process and the psychology of success. He has over 20 books to his name, and his works The War of Art, Do The Work, and Turning Pro have inspired and motivated millions of readers worldwide to embrace their creative compulsions and pursue their dreams with conviction and determination. Packed with actionable advice to inform your creative process, I have no doubt that Steven’s words will serve you no matter where you are on your creative journey. Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:13Steven Pressfield?

  The Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:18Steven Pressfield?

  You can start out as a bum, where you really can't do it, you know? And over time, you can actually learn. You can get better. There is hope. It does happen.

• 1:31Rich Roll?

  Hey, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. All is right in the world because my friend Stephen Pressfield is back in the studio, returning for his second appearance on the show. And it is all glorious.

• 1:44Steven Pressfield?

  The person that's toiling in obscurity, trying to learn a craft, or to bring forth whatever it is inside of them, I really do believe the gods watch over that person.

• 1:55Rich Roll?

  For those who are unfamiliar, Stephen is a prolific writer and prolific thinker, known best for his deep insights into the creative process and the psychology of success. His books, The War of Art, Do the Work, and Turning Pro have inspired and motivated millions of readers around the world to embrace their creative compulsions and pursue their dreams with conviction and determination. And the impact those books have had on my life on a personal level is just absolutely incalculable.

• 2:28Steven Pressfield?

  "Success," quote unquote, doesn't manifest immediately. It might be another 20 years before that thing, you know, comes to fruition.

• 2:38Rich Roll?

  I've got a couple more things I would very much like to mention before we dig into this one, but first, let's acknowledge the awesome organizations that make this show possible.

• 2:52Rich Roll?

  Okay, today, we sit down, we discuss Stephen's brand-new memoir. It's called Government Cheese. Really enjoyed that book. In it, he shares the improbable story of his life as he goes from this sort of lost and broken truck driver to ultimately fulfilling his dream of becoming a writer. And of course, within that, we explore the processes required to birth a creative work and share it with the world, as well as plenty of solid life advice for any and all.

• 3:22Steven Pressfield?

  I know from experience that that self-doubt is a good sign, that it's, you know, the bigger the resistance, the bigger the dream.

• 3:30Rich Roll?

  Again, I really enjoyed the book Government Cheese. More importantly, I always love spending time with Steve. It's a joy. He's just a wonderful, humble, wise human, and I think you're going to really enjoy this conversation. So pull up a chair and let's get lost together.

• 3:52Rich Roll?

  So nice to see you. Been looking forward to this for such a long time. Congrats on the new book.

• 3:59Steven Pressfield?

  Thank you.

• 3:59Rich Roll?

  Just churning them out. It's unbelievable. You are a product of your own advice and philosophy, walking the talk.

• 4:07Steven Pressfield?

  You know, part of this really is COVID. You know, it's like that whole period of time where you couldn't really do anything in terms of getting anything out there. So, you know, I just worked, you know?

• 4:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but a lot of people let COVID break them. You know, a lot of people descended into, you know, black holes of darkness and paralysis.

• 4:26Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah, I guess so. I mean, you know, for the writer's life, it's not that different from the COVID life.

• 4:32Rich Roll?

  This is perfect.

• 4:33Steven Pressfield?

  You're home in a room.

• 4:35Rich Roll?

  My phone rings a little bit less.

• 4:36Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 4:38Rich Roll?

  But, you know, you always say, you know, it never gets easier. Like, the resistance is always there. No matter how many books you write, no matter how many times you've gone to battle, you know, with resistance. And I think, you know, obviously, this is a universal thing. We all experience some version of what you speak about. But during COVID, I think, you know, a lot of us let resistance get the best of us, you know? So maybe there is something to the number of times you've gone to battle that you were able to, you know, muster the resilience to continue that battle when it broke all the amateurs out there.

• 5:14Steven Pressfield?

  Maybe. What about you with your training and stuff, Rich?

• 5:17Rich Roll?

  Look at you turning it around.

• 5:19Steven Pressfield?

  I know that, I was reading about David Goggins the other day, that maybe he even said this on with you, that some mornings he would stare at his running shoes for 20 minutes before he could actually make himself, put them on. I mean, speaking of resistance, I mean, you have to fight it every day, right?

• 5:38Rich Roll?

  It's interesting. I think that story came up when you did Rogan's podcast. I think he was sharing that David had shared that with Joe. And I listened to that and I thought, yeah, that's the case. There's certainly days you don't want to lace up and get out there. I think the difference for me is that I don't experience a lot of resistance with training. Like, I like it. Like, if I have nothing to do, like... It is my joy to go out and push my body. So, I mean, of course, there's, it's raining and cold out. You don't want to do it, etc. And the resistance will certainly creep up in those moments. But by and large, it's like the highlight of my day. It's like, it almost feels indulgent or selfish, like,

• 6:20Rich Roll?

  ooh, I get to go do this thing. So the resistance, in my experience, shows up in other areas, like, you know, writing, something you know a little bit about. Like, you know, I think I shared in the first podcast that we did together, that this, you can make a solid argument that this entire podcast, this decade of podcasting is one colossal, you know, example of, you know, this, this sort of monument to resistance that I've built to make me feel better about not writing another book. You know, and that's, that's changed a little bit. We can get into that. But I guess, you know, the point being that resistance varies and it's different for every single person. And I think people do look at me as like this athlete. But my relationship with fitness is not where I, that's, it's like, I think David is somebody who would say,

• 7:05Rich Roll?

  I hate, he always said, I hate running, I hate, you know, he does it because it is a practice of him having to confront resistance. And that's empowering and, you know, has allowed him to, you know, create this whole life. And my relationship to that world is a little bit different because I kind of find joy in it in a way. And that doesn't mean it's not hard. It's just, you know, resistance manifests in other places.

• 7:30Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah. I mean, I have found sort of during COVID and post-COVID that as much resistance as I have to writing, it's a joy for me too. And it's like when I can get some of the other stuff that, you know, we were just talking earlier about starting a company and that kind of stuff like that, a publishing company. That's the stuff I really hate. You know, so I say, oh, thank God I can have, you know, a couple of hours and I can just get in there and just face, you know, the blank page or whatever it is. So I can relate to what you're saying, Rich.

• 7:57Rich Roll?

  But you've been staring at blank pages for a long time and you know well enough how to get, you have enough experience of getting to the other side of that, that you know, if you just keep your ass in the chair, it's, it's gonna work out okay at some point. And there will be some discomfort, but you have enough of those blissful moments where the channel is wide open and the muse is, you know, dancing with you. And I'm sure you live for those moments.

• 8:25Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah, I do. Yeah.

• 8:26Rich Roll?

  And they don't always come, you know, they don't always come when you, when you summon them though, right?

• 8:31Steven Pressfield?

  No, it's, you know, it's the same thing of grinding it out, you know, and making yourself, making it happen, you know, through action.

• 8:37Rich Roll?

  Well, it was really great reading Government Cheese. I loved it. And I learned so much about your life. I mean, I've heard you speak about your journeyman days and all these, you know, I don't know, 20 some odd jobs that you've had over the years, and I did this, and I did that. But this book, like, holy shit, like, I'm like, wow, you really did live the journeyman life. Like, I think it was, I mean, we're halfway into the book, and, you know, that, that typewriter still hasn't emerged from the back of the van. I was like, when does the writing part start? You know, like, this was a hard fought, you know, multi-decade thing, you know, that, that, that really, I mean, for me,

• 9:15Rich Roll?

  it's beautifully raw, but it really gave me an appreciation of just how severe the resistance operated in your own life and everything you kind of endured and experienced to become this person who has the authority to talk about, like, these issues because you lived it as much as anybody I'm sure ever has.

• 9:40Steven Pressfield?

  Well, I don't, I don't know about that, but it certainly was a long, hard slog before, you know, I took the typewriter out and actually sat down and tried to, you know, and found that, that I could do it and it wouldn't drive me crazy. Whereas my first experience of it, you know, first trying to write the first book when I was 23 or whenever it was, was a complete disaster and a whole thing where I thought, Steve, you're an absolute idiot for having tried to do this, you know, don't ever think about doing it again. To the moment, you know, a few years later, when I actually could sit down and even churning out just garbage,

• 10:20Steven Pressfield?

  just the, it didn't matter, you know, just the fact of being able to punch the keys and take a few pages out of the typewriter at the end was, you know, battery charging to me instead of battery depleting.

• 10:33Rich Roll?

  Right. So, early in the book, you know, we, we were made aware of this typewriter that's hiding underneath your mattress in the van. And then it really doesn't appear for quite some time. And, and you know, I'm, I'm, I don't know how many 150 pages into this book and I'm like, this book should be called Zen and the Art of Big Rig Trucking. The amount of detail in the world of, you know, you, you have these experiences in these various subcultures and your depiction of your life at that time is done with so much tenderness, like so much appreciation for these characters that you encountered who, you know, were very colorful at times and in many ways like mentors. It is a book about mentorship.

• 11:17Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah, it's like, you know, as you know, Rich, it's divided into seven books and each book is named after a person and each person was a mentor to me. They were all men for whatever reason and very few of them had anything to do with writing, you know, they were, you know, my boss at this trucking company that I worked at and a guy that I picked fruit with in, in Washington and I never even knew his last name that were real role models to me along the way, even though at the time I wasn't thinking about that at all.

• 11:48Rich Roll?

  Right, yeah, real, like, most of them, pretty salt of the earth guys. So the guy, the trucking guy was Hugh, what was his name?

• 11:55Steven Pressfield?

  Hugh Reeves.

• 11:55Rich Roll?

  Hugh, right, yeah.

• 11:56Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 11:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, what a character.

• 11:58Steven Pressfield?

  He was a total salt of the earth guy, that's for sure.

• 12:00Rich Roll?

  Right, and you were, how old were you at that time?

• 12:02Steven Pressfield?

  I think I was 27 or 28.

• 12:04Rich Roll?

  Oh, you were, you were older than I thought, yeah. I mean, the way that the book unfolds, it's, it's hard to get a sense of the timeline because you jump around a lot. I was like, wait, what part of your life?

• 12:13Steven Pressfield?

  Even I was getting confused.

• 12:14Rich Roll?

  And you had so many jobs, I'm like, I don't know where I am in this, in this narrative, but, but you really get, you know, this sense of all these adventures that you want and that obviously like, you can't be a writer unless you've lived your life, right? Like you're out in the world, you know, having all these experiences, these rich experiences, that I'm sure.

• 12:32Steven Pressfield?

  I mean, I sort of wonder how people that, you know, these kind of boy wonders or girl wonders that kind of come out of YouTube or something like that these days and produce stuff that's really good, too. I wonder... How they do it, having, you know, like coming out of college and then basically going straight into whatever it is they're writing about and, and doing a good job. I don't know how they do it. I don't know how Bob Dylan comes, you know, to Greenwich Village and immediately starts writing great stuff, you know?

• 13:02Rich Roll?

  Well, that's an interesting person to explore because you're the first to say kind of talent is bullshit. It's really about process and work and, you know, showing up and meeting the resistance and all of that. But then, you know, then you have, you know, you have the Bob Dillons and you have these people who do seem touched. And I think, you know, that makes the rest of us kind of look at creative pursuits as something inaccessible or like not, you know, we're not privileged to be able to, you know, kind of dance with the muse in the way that those people can. So we should just go get normal jobs.

• 13:32Steven Pressfield?

  Well, I mean, I'd be interested to know what you think about that, Rich. I mean, you think about somebody like Neil Young or Bob Dylan or any of those guys that, or Joni Mitchell, that by the time they were 20 years old, they already had like a body of work and they were obviously writing from absolute strength, right? They were right in their groove and they kept going. Some of them are still going, right? I don't know. How does that happen? What do you, what do you think?

• 13:56Rich Roll?

  I mean, did you watch Get Back, the Beatles documentary?

• 13:59Steven Pressfield?

  I've been wanting to, I don't know, what is it on Amazon? Something I can't access.

• 14:03Rich Roll?

  I think it's on, it's on, no, it wasn't on Apple. Disney? I can't remember. I think we actually went to try to watch it the other day and we couldn't find it. I don't know if it's still up. But anyway, my point being like you get this front row seat to this unedited kind of bird's eye view of the greatest rock band to ever, to ever do it while they're just cracking songs in real time. Like you're seeing, you're, you're bearing witness to an unadulterated view of the creative process in real time. And it's really beautiful and magical. Like when they're just working out these songs and you're just like, oh my God, like this is where it happened. And then you realize how young they were. You're like,

• 14:45Rich Roll?

  because you don't think of them being like really young people who, you know, and the band ended when they were still quite young. And you're like, how did they know how to do all of that stuff at such a young age?

• 14:57Steven Pressfield?

  Maybe music is different. I don't know. Maybe.

• 15:00Rich Roll?

  I do think there are some people who are touched, right? But I think most people who are working in the creative pursuits are not, you know, anointed geniuses. They're people who work really hard at their craft.

• 15:14Steven Pressfield?

  And certainly, that certainly was my experience, you know. You know, if there's any sort of lesson, like, as I'm, I've been, because I've been looking back, thinking on this, right? I've been doing some podcasts and people have asked me questions, I had to think about it. And if there's any sort of lesson that comes out of this for me, it's that you can get better. You can start out as a bum, where you really can't do it, you know? You're, as hard as you try, you just can't do it. And over time, you can actually learn and get better. At least in writing, it's not like necessarily being an athlete where there's a certain sell-by date, you know, where, you know, when you're 75 years old, you're not gonna be whatever.

• 15:56Steven Pressfield?

  But you can get better. There is hope. It does happen.

• 16:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, not everybody can be LeBron James, or Prince, or, you know, somebody like that, but your book is, and the memoir really, you know, tells the story of just how, you know, long the journey was. And what's remarkable, like, if you have a true God-given talent, it's your ability to kind of stay in it. You know, most people would have just spun out and ended up in some other job or career, but you kept at it. And writing novels, like, a year, two years to write these novels that nobody would publish, and to continue to do it, I'm like, oh my God, this guy's like a glutton for punishment at some point. And I can't imagine the voice in your mind, you know, that the war that was going on between, like,

• 16:45Rich Roll?

  really you're gonna write another novel when, you know, the last one nobody wanted to touch, with like, that's just resistance, you gotta keep going. Are you a writer, or are you not?

• 16:55Steven Pressfield?

  Well, you know, it, it's really, when I think about it too, I sort of wonder how I did it too. But each time, I would sort of try to go straight, you know, get a real job, like, like I had several jobs at ad agencies throughout this thing, because that's a job, if you're a writer, you can get that job, right? But each time, each day, at the end of the day, I would be so depressed, you know, that I just had to go home and try to write a chapter, half a chapter, or something like that. You know, I wasn't living any kind of life, like, you know, chasing wins. or anything like that. It was all in this one groove of just trying not to be so depressed. It's already to kill myself, you know, because of what I, you know, trying to go straight during the day. So I just knew I couldn't do that. It wasn't an option for me.

• 17:38Rich Roll?

  Right. This, this is who you are. This, this has to be birthed into the world like your life depends on it.

• 17:44Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah, true.

• 17:45Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 17:46Steven Pressfield?

  You know, no plan B sort of type thing. You may want to have a plan B, but they just don't work, you know?

• 17:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, and you, there's the characters when you're picking apples who, you know, these guys are like, I mean, they're riding the rail cars, right? Like these are, these are like hardcore,

• 18:04Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 18:05Rich Roll?

  like hobo lifestyle.

• 18:06Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 18:07Rich Roll?

  Train car dudes.

• 18:08Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 18:09Rich Roll?

  And even one of them, I can't remember his name is like, you know, I tried to, you know, I had a, I had a girlfriend and I had a solid job and I did it. And he lasted like 90 days.

• 18:17Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 18:17Rich Roll?

  And he's like, I gotta, you know, like what is this, this idea that we've been sold about what it, what it means to live a happy, you know, fulfilling life in many ways is a lie. And you've had the experience of being with lots of different people who have rejected that and are considered lunatics or, you know, kind of outcasts or outliers as a result of that. But there's also like a lot of wisdom.

• 18:42Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 18:42Rich Roll?

  To be mined from somebody who has the courage to step outside of that and say, I'm going to live differently. And I don't care what society thinks about that.

• 18:51Steven Pressfield?

  Although I'm not sure how much of a choice it is for people like that.

• 18:54Rich Roll?

  Maybe, yeah, of course. Right. Yeah.

• 18:55Steven Pressfield?

  You know, the, when I was, there was one little bit in the book about when I was at, uh, living in a halfway house, you know, for people coming out of state institutions and stuff like that. And, uh, how, my sort of conclusion about who they were, because they were really interesting people. I mean, we would sit in the kitchen at night and talk about all this kind of crazy stuff, you know, men and women. And, uh, they were certainly as smart as anybody I knew and as interesting as anybody I knew. And I sort of, my conclusion was that they were people who. Saw conventional life, the life of having a job, of settling down, of having a They saw completely through that. They just couldn't do it, you know?

• 19:40Steven Pressfield?

  Which meant that they were crazy as far as the world was concerned. The world locked them up in institutions, but they sort of, and there was no place for them to go. It wasn't like there was a job that they would fit into or anything like that. So, but they were, you know, almost like if they could have joined an Indian tribe like Dances with Wolves, they would have done it.

• 20:02Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 20:03Steven Pressfield?

  And these fruit tramps were the same kind of guys. I mean, they were all alcoholics, flat out wino, you know, drink till you pass out, you know, get up the next morning with no intention of changing that, you know? There was no thought of going to AA or this was whatever they were, but they also felt like they couldn't work a straight job. There just was no way to do that. So they had found this, this kind of crack in the society, you know?

• 20:30Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 20:31Steven Pressfield?

  Picking fruit and riding the rails and, and you know.

• 20:34Rich Roll?

  And no one's gonna give them a hard time and tell them they need to change. Like they're in kind of an enabling environment.

• 20:40Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 20:41Rich Roll?

  For that kind of life and behavior.

• 20:42Steven Pressfield?

  But it's a really sad environment and scary to be in as like a, you know, a more or less regular person like I was, cause it's like, guys don't have teeth.

• 20:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 20:54Steven Pressfield?

  Eyes are screwed up.

• 20:55Rich Roll?

  Well, that guy like had the big medical problem, you're hauling this dude off and then he dies and then you actually found a body in the orchard.

• 21:01Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 21:02Rich Roll?

  You know, this is real.

• 21:03Steven Pressfield?

  That's apparently pretty common, you know? So you could really see these guys, as wonderful as they were and as pure as they were in a certain way, that they had a limited lifespan. You knew, you know, if you came back three years from now, you might not see them again. And they knew it too, and they just, you know?

• 21:22Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 21:23Steven Pressfield?

  There was no plan B.

• 21:24Rich Roll?

  And so what do you mine from that? For your, like, what do you, what can be learned from that?

• 21:30Steven Pressfield?

  I feel like I'm that way. I feel like artists are that way, you know? That. You can't live the normal, conventional life, as much as you may want to. You have a sliver of a skill that you can do, that maybe is marketable, if you can make it marketable. But there's no, there's no choice, right? There's no alternative. You're either in that little lane and make it work, or you're going down, you know? So, and I don't see anything wrong with that, you know? I feel a kinship to those guys.

• 22:06Steven Pressfield?

  And, you know, who says that this, like, that this world that we believe in of having money in the stock market and trying to get your kids into Harvard? And who says that's such a great thing? What's so great about that? You know, to get here today, you know, you gotta drive past these companies, you know, these, I don't know what they are, you know? But they're like white collar jobs around here. It's a prosperous area. And as I'm driving past, I'm thinking, I'm sure you think the same thing, Rich. If I was in one of these things, I'd kill myself, you know? There's no way I could, I could do that. So what's so great about that? And of course, people that are living that life, they have alcoholism problems and they're beating their wives

• 22:50Steven Pressfield?

  or whatever, or they're just miserable.

• 22:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and that's not to say that there aren't people who find some level of happiness in that. Like, no judgment. If you're wired for that and you do that, that's great. Like, I, you know, I think, you know, one thing we share, like, you, you sort of were never really part of that. You always danced around the edges of it so that you could just make enough money to be a writer, whereas I was kind of steeped in that and had to break free. So I've lived in both of these worlds and have a pretty good sense of what they're both like. But yes, there is, you know, there is a falsity in, in this sort of promise of the American dream. And we all kind of blindly premise our future happiness upon working towards these ideals without enough objective questioning of their veracity, I think.

• 23:38Rich Roll?

  And that's not to say that every, like you said, like, not everyone is born and bred to be an artist and to pursue that type of life, which is to invite a certain level of suffering and pain and risk into your experience that not all people are, you know, have the constitution for. But when you write, like when you write the War of Art and you talk about resistance, I do think we all have our own unique blueprint and we have something to say and express

• 24:04Steven Pressfield?

  Absolutely.

• 24:05Rich Roll?

  That's uniquely ours and there's something important about everybody exploring that in themselves and that doesn't mean they need to quit their jobs and, you know, go pick apples to write a book, but, but I think it is, you know, kind of, I think a sense of full integrity with who you are is somewhat reliant upon being in communication with your own, you know, with your own sense of who you are and, and sharing that with the world because there's only one you, right? And you talk about this all the time. So, please, share it and don't keep it to yourself because the more you repress that, I think that leads to all sorts of dysfunction.

• 24:44Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah. I mean, I'll give you an example from a friend of mine, my friend Ruthie. If she sees this podcast, she's gonna be quelling, you know? But this is an example of somebody that has a calling that doesn't have a definition to it. So my friend Ruthie is, she's, I don't think, she's may have had one or two jobs in her life, but they only lasted like a couple of months. Basically, she's been a wife, you know, and kind of lived off of whatever husband she's been married to. And, but yet, her, her role, and this has just sort of unfolded over time, in her family and her extended family and friends, if you're in trouble, you go to her. And she has bailed me out of stuff many

• 25:28Steven Pressfield?

  times. And I know, I can see she's, does it for everybody. It's like, maybe in, in a more of a old world culture, there would be the woman that you would, you know, that everybody would go to if you really needed to get your shit together and she would help you somehow. And that's her calling, but there's no name for that.

• 25:47Rich Roll?

  Right. There's, you don't, you can't plug that into, you know, some specific job.

• 25:52Steven Pressfield?

  And yeah, and they don't pay you for it either. There's no salary attached to it. But that's her calling and she's gotten to that. So I'm, I, I refuse to believe that each individual doesn't have a calling. I think we all do. And I certainly don't mean to say that it has to be in the arts or anything like that. It can be, and even the people that are working at these companies around here, I'm sure the ones that are happy probably have Side things that they do, you know?

• 26:18Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 26:19Steven Pressfield?

  That they're passionate about and when the weekend comes, they're heading to the mountains or they're doing something like that, you know?

• 26:24Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 26:25Steven Pressfield?

  That is more in tune with their own soul. At least that's my hope.

• 26:30Rich Roll?

  Right, and the difference, the qualitative difference with like the quote-unquote artist is that they have some kind of like pain body inside of them that they feel like they're gonna explode unless they give birth to it.

• 26:43Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 26:44Rich Roll?

  Like that would be like, life is intolerable unless this thing is being nourished in some way.

• 26:50Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah, and they also have some sort of a platform or an outlet, if you're a dancer, if you're a musician or something like that, where you can produce an actual product or an experience that will let you pay the rent, you know?

• 27:04Rich Roll?

  Right, but not all, you know, and that can vary, right?

• 27:07Steven Pressfield?

  Yes, definitely.

• 27:09Rich Roll?

  It's like, you know, there's being a movie star and then there's, you know, there's doing, you know, off-Broadway, there's, this comes in all permutations. It's not like a money thing, right? This is like a, this is, this is like a yearning that has nothing to do with like commerce or, or career, right?

• 27:28Steven Pressfield?

  Uh-huh. You hope it might produce some commerce.

• 27:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 27:32Steven Pressfield?

  But it's really more about giving birth to something that's inside you that won't go away.

• 27:36Rich Roll?

  And like, where does that come? Like, one of the things that I, that I, you know, I love about you is that, you know, you dance with the mystical, like you're not afraid to like explore the unseen energies and the vibrations, like the very subtle, you know, kind of wavelengths that you have to kind of be in communication with to be an expressive person.

• 27:59Steven Pressfield?

  Well, I mean, you know, if you're any, any kind of an artist, a musician or whatever, a writer, It becomes very clear to you right away that what you're producing isn't coming from you, right? It's a question of where do ideas come from, right? You know, songs come completely intact to certain songwriters, right? From where? So, you, you know, you, I think the evolution, Government Cheese is really about the evolution of a writer or of an artist. And there's certain things that you learn here. One is the kind of, the craft itself, you know? What is a story, right? How does a story start?

• 28:43Steven Pressfield?

  How do you, what's the middle, et cetera? Then there are the kind of soft skills, like having the courage to start something. What do you do when you bog down in the middle? How do you handle rejection? You know? How do you, how do you reinforce yourself when nobody else is reinforcing you? But then, above and beyond that is the mystical element. And it's the question of where do ideas come from? An idea for a play, or an idea for a car that you're gonna build, or whatever it is, where does that come from? And where does it, I mean, the global idea, the big idea? And then, day to day, as a writer writing a novel, let's say, where do scenes come from? Where do the characters come from?

• 29:25Steven Pressfield?

  And you definitely learn a respect for something that's unknowable. And, you know, in the book I talk about, and I've talked about this in The War of Art too. I had a mentor named Paul Rink.

• 29:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I was gonna, I was gonna get to him. I mean, this is the first, you had lots of mentors, but this was really the guy.

• 29:43Steven Pressfield?

  He was probably the only actual writer that's kind of sat me down and said, "This is what you do, kid," you know?

• 29:51Rich Roll?

  I mean, how many books had you written before you even understood what a story was, or what a three-act structure was?

• 29:57Steven Pressfield?

  A lot.

• 29:59Rich Roll?

  You could have saved yourself a little

• 30:01Steven Pressfield?

  A lot.

• 30:02Rich Roll?

  Time and energy.

• 30:02Steven Pressfield?

  And you know.

• 30:03Rich Roll?

  Had you met up with your boy Robert McKee a little bit earlier.

• 30:06Steven Pressfield?

  You know what it's like, you know. I've really learned it all kind of in the movie business, you know.

• 30:10Rich Roll?

  Uh huh, right.

• 30:11Steven Pressfield?

  Bit by painful bit, but.

• 30:13Rich Roll?

  I got a lot of questions about that, but go ahead.

• 30:15Steven Pressfield?

  But speaking about Paul, my mentor, I used to, uh, I was living on this little street in Carmel Valley, Northern California, and I had saved money and I was just setting, uh, trying to finish the first book I'd ever finished because I'd crapped out earlier on, you know, and Paul lived up the street and he lived in a little camper. He parked out in front of his house and I would have breakfast with him or coffee with him every morning. And he gave me, he typed out the invocation of the muse from the Odyssey, from Homer's Odyssey, from the T E Lawrence translation, Lawrence of Arabia, which I still have, it's like tattered into, it's like powder.

• 30:58Steven Pressfield?

  But he sort of really introduced me to the idea that not only that things are coming from some other dimension, but that people for thousands of years have been, have known about this and have invoked that other dimension and the muse. And so that really, that was a huge thing to teach a young writer, you know.

• 31:22Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 31:23Steven Pressfield?

  The respect for that, that has never left me for a minute.

• 31:33Rich Roll?

  So this guy, he's living, he's living in a camper in front of his house. He's got a house, but he sleeps in the camper. I mean, this guy's a character, but he also.

• 31:40Steven Pressfield?

  Well, you have a bit of a tent, right? So you know what it is.

• 31:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I get it. I'm like, he's, yeah, listen, this guy's my spirit animal. Um, but he, you know, provides you with the reading list. You're going to read all these people, all the greats from, you know, all of the Greeks, but also, you know, the Russians and, you know, really is a taskmaster in that regard. And ends up, you know, providing you with all these principles that really become tenets in the other books that you write, the prescriptive books that you write.

• 32:09Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 32:10Rich Roll?

  When you finish a book, you start another one.

• 32:11Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 32:12Rich Roll?

  All these sorts of things that, um, become so fundamental. Like it's amazing, does he? Did he ever, like, I don't know when he passed or whatever, but was he able to kind of appreciate the impact that he had on you? Or was there a level of pride in everything that you ultimately were able to accomplish?

• 32:29Steven Pressfield?

  It's a good question, because he died before I ever had any remote success. But I know that just, you know, we had a friendship and he was just, you know, being a mentor to a young guy that was trying to learn something. But one interesting thing, Rich, was that as, he had no respect for writers per se. And he would sort of warn me against, you know, like, don't turn into that kind of, you know? He said, you know, they're basically egomaniacs and basically they'll stab their own, you know, wife in the back, you know? So he said, but he did, he was certainly a real believer in, in working hard and doing the absolute best you could with whatever your gift was, you know?

• 33:11Steven Pressfield?

  That this was serious, that you were not just churning out, you know, entertainment or something, that you were in, you were really trying to, to bring your gift forth, whatever it was. And he was absolutely serious about it. He only kind of like lectured me, you know?

• 33:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and that it's worthwhile.

• 33:27Steven Pressfield?

  Yes.

• 33:28Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 33:29Steven Pressfield?

  Which a lot of people don't think. You know what Hollywood is, you know? People are there, you know, some of them are there to do good work, but a lot of them are not.

• 33:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah. My favorite quote in the whole book comes from the section about him, which is, "Gods watch over lost souls, particularly when they dream." Is that from the invocation? I just wrote it down.

• 33:50Steven Pressfield?

  Uh, no, that's actually...

• 33:51Rich Roll?

  Was that Paul or was that you?

• 33:53Steven Pressfield?

  That was me, actually.

• 33:54Rich Roll?

  That was you. I mean, that's such a beautiful sentiment.

• 33:57Steven Pressfield?

  But I do think it's true. You know, that the person that's toiling in obscurity, you know, trying to learn a craft or to, you know, to bring forth whatever it is inside of them, I really do believe the gods look down and watch over you. You know, watch over that person. And... And, and protect them somehow, you know, I can't prove it, obviously, but I believe it.

• 34:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, I believe it. I've felt it in my own life and it's a very tangible experience. And I think life, you know, you could, we could have an argument, is this real as imagined? But, you know, I have my experience, you have your experience, and I think life is just better and more interesting when you indulge in this.

• 34:44Steven Pressfield?

  I'm interviewing you. What's your experience?

• 34:45Rich Roll?

  I mean, my experience is that, is that when you take those energies seriously and you respect them, that you are rewarded is the wrong word, but you are heard and you get what you need.

• 35:03Steven Pressfield?

  Now specifically, are we talking about athletics? Are we talking about writing? What are we talking about?

• 35:08Rich Roll?

  I think, you know, I think of it in terms of the pursuit of the authentic self. So in your case, that's through writing and becoming an artist. But I think that can be, you know, experienced in many different ways, whether you're trying, you're in a space in your life and you have aspirations to be this other person, or you have a broader imagination of what your life could be like, but you don't know how to get from here to there. Like, how do you navigate that? Well, there's practical considerations, like, well, I interview for a job, or I do, you know, these things. But I think from the unseen kind of spiritual realm, there's a, you know, that's, that's the lever, right? That you want to tap into. And I think it's about really connecting with the truth of who you are

• 35:52Rich Roll?

  and living as integrous with that as possible. And when you do that, I think the universe sees that and pays attention. And little, little sort of bricks on the path are put in front of you to gently nudge you in one direction or the other. And if you are in a place where you have the presence of mind, the awareness to see that and heed that, then that process compounds upon itself.

• 36:19Steven Pressfield?

  Can you give me like a specific moment in your, in your life?

• 36:23Rich Roll?

  Well, I mean, I think. You know, and I told this story in Finding Ultra, like we, you know, like I was like, I can't be a lawyer anymore. And now I'm like going off and like training for these races. There's no career path here. But I felt certain in my conviction that this was necessary as a building block towards a different life, even though there was no logical or rational justification for that. And I had an aspiration or a dream of being in a place where I could provide for my family in a way that was personally meaningful to me and helpful to other people. And what that looked like, I had no concept of. So it was holding loosely to that while also taking actions that honored that internal voice,

• 37:08Rich Roll?

  even if that voice was orthogonal to, you know, societal values or what other people expected of me. And the more you honor that, the more likely you are to find evidence in the world to support that. So like this idea of when the heart is true, the universe will conspire to support you, which is sort of my version of saying God's watch over lost souls, particularly when they dream. And that doesn't mean it's going to manifest in the manner in which you choose or on the timeline that you prefer. Certainly your timeline, you know? Probably it was not a preferred route for yourself. But in retrospect, when you look back upon your life, it all looks like every little piece was necessary

• 37:53Rich Roll?

  to allow you to be here today, right? There's this incredible design to the whole thing that when you're in the midst of it is very disorienting. And your only true north is that voice within yourself that you either choose to honor or you repress.

• 38:10Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah, yep. And the other aspect of that is that when you, at least this has been my experience, that when you achieve some sort of a breakthrough on that path, even if it's just a private breakthrough. That it doesn't success quote unquote doesn't manifest immediately. It might be another 20 years before that thing, you know, comes to fruition. So in the movies, it's never like that, right? You know, somebody turns a corner and all of a sudden, everything's great. But in in real life, it doesn't seem to.

• 38:44Rich Roll?

  So what is an example of that for you? The fact that like War of Art is still like finding new audiences and exploding in the way that it does?

• 38:52Steven Pressfield?

  Or? Like, um, you know, there's a story that I tell in the War of Art that I repeat in Government Cheese about a night when I was alone in my sublet apartment in in New York, where I finally got out the typewriter, sat down, and it worked, you know? And I felt like in that moment, okay, I'm a writer, you know? You know, I'm a, I knew I was, and I was a million miles away from actually succeeding, if I ever would succeed. But I felt like, okay, at least I can do this and it works. It charges my battery, it doesn't. But yet, it was still another like 25 years.

• 39:29Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 39:29Steven Pressfield?

  Until I got a book published. So but still, at that point, I became a different person. You know, something changed in in my DNA, you know? A certain level of self doubt went away at that point.

• 39:44Rich Roll?

  And and if you had to identify specifically what that was or how that happened and why that happened in that moment? How would you describe that?

• 39:53Steven Pressfield?

  I think it just for me was, uh, it's a really good question because it's kind of mysterious. It's sort of like you fail and you fail and you fail and you fail and you sort of build up a head of steam of failure. Like finally, it's like you can't fail anymore, you know? The gods are going to give you something. That may be a moment where, you know, heaven looked out for souls that dream, you know? Where the other dimension said, okay, we're going to give it to this kid, you know?

• 40:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah, he's earned it. Let's give him a break.

• 40:23Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah, which I think is true, right? You sort of build up and build up and finally the gods say, okay, we gotta give this guy something.

• 40:30Rich Roll?

  Right, right. And and your job is to not relent, to not quit.

• 40:36Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 40:37Rich Roll?

  If you stay in it and your heart is true.

• 40:40Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 40:40Rich Roll?

  At some point.

• 40:41Steven Pressfield?

  But it's like swimming in the middle of the ocean. It's like, what's the choice, right? You know?

• 40:45Rich Roll?

  Well, you say like, so you characterize it or you talk about it or think about it as this, this like underground river, right?

• 40:54Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 40:54Rich Roll?

  The price of admission to which is the work.

• 40:57Steven Pressfield?

  Yes. Yeah.

• 40:58Rich Roll?

  So your job is to do the work. Then you get to flow in this river and the river is going to take you where it's going to take you. And there are these unseen energies. And when you're in that dance with the muse and, you know, on a daily basis and you're consistent in that regard, like something is going to happen as long as you don't, you know, pull out of the river.

• 41:17Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 41:17Rich Roll?

  Or stop doing the work.

• 41:19Steven Pressfield?

  Which is, it's a weird sort of contradiction in that we're talking about something really airy fairy.

• 41:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 41:25Steven Pressfield?

  Like when I say an underground river, I mean like for, for a writer, it's the stories that will come to you, right? Or whatever it is that you're, you're trying to write. And that's, that is this underground river that's inside you. But how do you get to it? You don't get to it by mystical means at all. You get to it by just busting your ass every day, you know, grinding it out, you know, through day after day after day of having no inspiration at all. That, that that's the price.

• 41:55Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 41:56Steven Pressfield?

  And there is no other.

• 41:57Rich Roll?

  The least airy fairy thing.

• 41:58Steven Pressfield?

  Way of getting it.

• 41:59Rich Roll?

  Like the least sexy or airy fairy thing ever, which is like the grind.

• 42:03Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah. And there's no, it's athletics too, right? There's no other currency other than getting out there on the trail and doing your thing, right? You can do it smart, but there's no other currency that heaven is going to accept.

• 42:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah. One of the things that I think is remarkable about you, and I, and I see this in Ryan Holiday also, is your ability to like produce a work and you're, you're already steeped in the next work and this almost seamless segue from one thing to the next without like understanding that to take a break is to interrupt momentum and momentum is something to be protected and respected above all. It has its own like force field and energy about it. And you don't want to interrupt that, right? So you have to always be in this sort of. Perpetual motion from one thing to the next, which also is about decoupling the work from the results of the work, right?

• 43:03Rich Roll?

  Like, so it's easy to be like, let's sit back. You just, like, government cheese is out. You're doing all these podcasts. Hey, let's, how's it doing? Like, let's take a beat now and let's, let's, you know, like, really get into, like, the results of the work. But I'm sure you're already well into whatever it is you're writing next.

• 43:19Steven Pressfield?

  Yes, I am. And I certainly have found that just through hard experience, that the worst thing that any artist or creative person can do is finish one thing, put it out there, and then, like, wait for the world to respond, you know? Because either the world is gonna totally ignore it, or they're gonna crap all over it, right? So, plus, it violates some cosmic law. You're not allowed to reap the fruit, you know? You're only allowed to move on to the next harvest, whatever it is, or the next planting. That's just the cosmic law.

• 43:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 43:59Steven Pressfield?

  And...

• 44:00Rich Roll?

  And do you find yourself, like, is there superstition around that, too? Like, if you actually indulge in, like, oh, if I check that, then that's gonna really, this is gonna undercut my, you know?

• 44:10Steven Pressfield?

  Exactly, absolutely. You know how when you sort of, when you really want something and you sort of check, I don't know what, like, you check your email or your Instagram or something? The act of checking it, on some level, prevents the thing from happening.

• 44:28Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 44:29Steven Pressfield?

  You know? At least that's my, you know? It's like when you forget it, then you come home and there's a letter, oh, here it is, here's a check, I was, you know? But, uh, so, yeah, I'm very superstitious about that.

• 44:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah. What are some of the other superstitions?

• 44:45Steven Pressfield?

  I mean, I just do...

• 44:46Rich Roll?

  We'll call them that, not obsessive-compulsive behaviors, but...

• 44:50Steven Pressfield?

  I'm sort of a believer, you know, the believer that, you know, things like, like, fairies and elves and angels, they exist.

• 45:01Rich Roll?

  Uh-huh.

• 45:01Steven Pressfield?

  And they're right here, right now, and watching us, and...

• 45:07Steven Pressfield?

  And if we, so I don't wanna piss them off.

• 45:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 45:10Steven Pressfield?

  I wanna show them respect, even in my own thoughts, you know?

• 45:14Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 45:15Steven Pressfield?

  Because, you know, uh, I don't know. Um, did I ever, did we ever talk about my, uh, when I was with the Masai? And they, did I ever tell you that story?

• 45:25Rich Roll?

  I can't remember. I can't remember, but please.

• 45:27Steven Pressfield?

  I'll tell you this, for whatever this is worth. Somehow, I, I, I had this job and I got to go to Africa and I got to go to, we, we flew out to this Masai in camp in my, my helicopter.

• 45:38Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 45:38Steven Pressfield?

  No roads. And when we got there, there was a camp of maybe a thousand people, women, kids, the whole thing. And the shaman had just decided, oh shit, we gotta move the camp. And everybody was just sort of getting set to do that. In order to do that, they had to get the white cattle to lead the other cattle to the new camp. Anyway, it was a whole involved thing, you know? And everybody had to like pack up all their shit and da, da, da, da, da, da. And it was all done in the greatest of good spirits, you know? Nobody was going, wow, fuck, what do we have to move the camp for? And they moved the camp like three hundred feet, just up the hill. That was it. Boom. Thanks. Okay. And I thought to myself, I wish I could have talked to that shaman, cause I would like to ask him,

• 46:22Steven Pressfield?

  what was wrong with three hundred feet down there? Why did we have to move? And I'm sure he would say something like, you know, if we had stayed there, so and so would have broken his leg.

• 46:35Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 46:35Steven Pressfield?

  I could see, or right, something like that would, somebody would have miscarried or something. So we had to move there. So I don't know how to justify this, but I believe it.

• 46:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 46:47Steven Pressfield?

  I think they saw, the shaman saw something. So I'm superstitious about that sort of stuff. And, uh, have you ever read Bob Dylan's book, whatever Chronicles, part two or part one? It's very much like that. I mean, he's like that, he thinks that way too.

• 47:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 47:04Steven Pressfield?

  Like, I had never thought about, uh, how you actually make an album, you know? Like he, like he's got, let's say he's got- Fourteen songs. He's written them. He's got them on the piano. He's got them on the guitar. But then the question is, what musicians am I gonna have to do? Who's gonna produce this? Should we do it here in L.A.? Should we go to Memphis? You know, and he's looking for that mysterious thing, you know?

• 47:29Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 47:29Steven Pressfield?

  Who's the guy that's gonna produce it? And the sort of the book is about his kind of, he believes in this, this, his crazy sort of, we're going here and then we're gonna go to this honky-tonk. We're gonna talk to this guy. I've never heard of this guy before. He's gonna introduce us to this woman. She lives in, you know, Biloxi and we're gonna go there.

• 47:48Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 47:48Steven Pressfield?

  And somehow it works.

• 47:49Rich Roll?

  Right. It's not, it's not something that, that makes sense on paper.

• 47:53Steven Pressfield?

  No, not at all.

• 47:55Rich Roll?

  It's about resonance and vibration and, you know.

• 47:59Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 48:00Rich Roll?

  Like, there is something about, you know, the unseen energies. And I think in our fast-paced, modern, Western, industrialized world, we've, you know, we've become people who live predominantly in our minds. And I think we have a certain hubris and arrogance about our intellectual capacities, where we believe that we can be all-knowing and our senses are unlimited. But the truth is, like, our senses are incredibly limited.

• 48:28Steven Pressfield?

  Yes.

• 48:29Rich Roll?

  I think there's a lot going on that, you know, our eyes and ears and taste and smell are not attuned to be able to notice.

• 48:38Steven Pressfield?

  You know, what's really interesting to me, Rich, is now A.I. I keep reading these articles, right? It's capable, it's capable of writing stories.

• 48:46Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 48:46Steven Pressfield?

  Writing songs.

• 48:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 48:47Steven Pressfield?

  But can there possibly be any soul to that?

• 48:51Rich Roll?

  Well, that's, that is a philosophical question. As the A.I. continues to sort of, not just advance, but like self-learn at an accelerated pace, at some point, do we cross the Rubicon into, you know, inevitable consciousness, right?

• 49:10Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 49:10Rich Roll?

  And sentience on some level, even if it's different from our version of it.

• 49:15Steven Pressfield?

  It's gonna be fascinating stuff.

• 49:16Rich Roll?

  It's like... But, you know, the broader point being like, the idea that, like, if you think about quantum physics, or the idea that, like, you know, time is a, is a, is a mental construct, like, are we living, you know, multiple existences simultaneously? Or, you know, can we explore the Hindu tradition of past lives and all of that? Like, whether there's veracity to that or not, like, I do think that there is just so much more happening, and we're so arrogant to believe that we have a grip on this. And I think it's just better to be in a place of humility and to, you know, acknowledge that kind of mystery.

• 49:54Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 49:54Rich Roll?

  And it makes life more interesting anyway, you know? It's more fun. And, you know, it's always interesting when, you know, the minds that, we know what we're doing, and then like, two years later, you realize like, they didn't know what they were doing at all, right?

• 50:06Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 50:07Rich Roll?

  Like, over, you know, enough time, we realize that so much of our, you know, self-avowed intelligence has been proven to be incorrect, so...

• 50:16Steven Pressfield?

  Well, like, the premise of Blade Runner 2049, or whatever it was, right, was that they, a replicant gave birth to a, to a child, right? That's not supposed to happen. So that means these replicants that are manufactured human beings have a, could have a soul.

• 50:36Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 50:36Steven Pressfield?

  And that's, and, and that was the whole case of the movie. Yes, they do have a soul.

• 50:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 50:41Steven Pressfield?

  You know? And, uh, and then we wonder, are we replicants? Is what do I have?

• 50:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 50:46Steven Pressfield?

  But it's great.

• 50:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Uh, I mean, how do you, I mean, when you, when you acknowledge the muse and these energies that have shown up for you time and time again, that it becomes impossible to rebut the notion that they're real and how they operate in your life, you start to think about, you know, universal truths, right? Like, universal unspoken truths. Like, is there, is there, like, this is a truth, right? If you show up for the work, the muse is gonna appear for you, right? Like, I'm thinking about this because I had Peter Singer here yesterday, who's a moral philosopher, kind of a legendary guy.

• 51:21Steven Pressfield?

  You get some such amazing people.

• 51:23Rich Roll?

  I mean, he was...

• 51:23Steven Pressfield?

  Energy in here.

• 51:24Rich Roll?

  He was, it was really cool to talk to him, and, you know, this is a guy who spent his whole life thinking about these very questions, in the construct of, of ethics and morality, like, and I said to him, is there a universal, like, does a universal sense of morality exist independent of...

• 51:42Rich Roll?

  The human condition, and this is a guy who, he said yes, but he's also an atheist, which is confusing to me. Like, how can you, how can you believe in that if you don't have a sense of some kind of spiritual truth that extends beyond our ability to comprehend? I don't know if I asked him that directly. I don't, it's all like a soup in my mouth. But yeah, like, so when you think about these energies that you're tapping into, and, and your relationship with them is so real, it is real, right?

• 52:12Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah. So, yeah, the next question is, what does it all mean, right? If, if, you know, not just me, but tens of millions of people out there are also sort of tapping into energies and coming up with stuff, does that mean that there's a great consciousness, God, whatever, who is moving humanity in some direction? And we little drops of water are contributing to that ocean in one way or another? Are we co-creating? I never knew exactly what that meant, but is that part of this deal? And then you think to yourself, well, what about the guy who invented national socialism?

• 52:54Steven Pressfield?

  You know, or, you know, the evil stuff that's in the world, right? That's coming from some, some source of what? I don't know. It boggles the mind. I don't know the answer to it.

• 53:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, it, it all goes back to the same question that you posited, which is like, where do ideas come from? Like, where do they come from, right? The last time that we sat down and spoke-

• 53:13Steven Pressfield?

  And why are they coming?

• 53:14Rich Roll?

  This book, Government Cheese, didn't exist. You probably were already writing it on some level. And I know I read in your blog, you're like, you know, a year into it, and you're like, this is terrible, I should never be writing this. Like, all the same stuff that an amateur would think, but here we are, and it's done. And this is something that, that came through you, right? And now is a thing in the world. Where do ideas come from?

• 53:36Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 53:36Rich Roll?

  Do they emanate from some, you know, super intelligence? Or, you know, some godhead that disperses a collective consciousness? Because I do think there is something about, like, on that idea of listening to your internal voice, like, doing enough inside work where you can kind of- Make sure it's clear skies inside of you and whatever you're hearing about yourself is coming through unadulterated by whatever past traumas or experiences you've had. So you have a clear signal. And I think when you're tuned into that clear signal, there's something about your kind of antenna being attuned to the greater consciousness, like that consciousness saying, yes, this is your role, you're supposed to be doing this. And when you fulfill that role, whether it's like your friend, right?

• 54:21Rich Roll?

  Who is this person who does so many things for other people? She is in her dharma of fulfilling that role and we all have some version of that role. And what does the world look like when everybody is, you know, attuned with perfect fidelity to that signal?

• 54:38Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah. And the other weird thing about this, Rich, is that I don't think there's ever been a time in history where this concept had any wide bearing, right? If you think about the Middle Ages, right? People were just trying to dig a turnip out of the ground, you know? Or the Roman Empire, Alexander the Great, it was all about conquest and stuff like that, right? There never was a time until now, I think, when there have been people that have enough leisure time and enough resource that they can indulge this kind of top of the Maslow pyramid thinking.

• 55:13Rich Roll?

  Right, yeah, this is the very peak of the pyramid, for sure, right?

• 55:16Steven Pressfield?

  What was I put here for? You never could even think about that in the past.

• 55:19Rich Roll?

  No, that was indulgent. Yeah.

• 55:22Steven Pressfield?

  So, and also, I think the world is basically breaking down, in my opinion, because people can't deal with that. You know, if we want to get into politics, which we probably shouldn't do, I think a lot of the dark energy that's out there comes from people en masse who...

• 55:45Steven Pressfield?

  Can feel this, that there's something inside them, but can't bring it out or don't know that it's even possible to do. And so that energy goes into a dark direction. And, you know, the web feeds that, you know, because dark minded people can get together. Anyway, I'm getting off on another tangent.

• 56:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, no, I mean, I, I think, I think there's truth to that. Listen, you know, not everybody has the ability to indulge the very peak of Maslow's, you know, pyramid, right? Um, so it is, it is a privilege to be able to even entertain that. We can acknowledge that. And I think there's a lot of people who are suffering, who are just trying to make ends meet day to day. Perhaps they do have some impulse inside of them, but because of the circumstances of their life, it doesn't feel plausible for them to pay attention to that. And I think it then festers and gets more deeply repressed. And that creates a dissonance between the aspirant self and, you know, the day to day existence of the, the self in the real world.

• 56:46Rich Roll?

  And that has to, you know, over time, kind of erode the soul, right? And it's not surprising that somebody would, would, you know, become depressed or resort to some kind of darkness.

• 56:57Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah. I mean, you've read Eric Hoffer's The True Believer and his stuff?

• 57:02Rich Roll?

  I don't know if I have, actually.

• 57:04Steven Pressfield?

  Do you know who Eric Hoffer is?

• 57:05Rich Roll?

  No, who's that?

• 57:06Steven Pressfield?

  Oh, this is great. I'll really turn it on to somebody. It'll blow your mind. Eric Hoffer was a philosopher, an American philosopher, but he was a longshoreman. And he was this, I think he was German. And Eric Severide, back from the day, The Newsman, back in the day, a contemporary of Walter Cronkite, did it like, like Bill Moyers, remember, did that thing with Joseph Campbell?

• 57:28Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 57:28Steven Pressfield?

  About the power of, Eric Severide did a series with Eric Hoffer, where, you know, it was multi, you know, One-on-one interviews, and Eric Hoffer wrote a series of small books, and one of them was called The True Believer, that was his main thing. And his premise was that mass movements like communism, Nazism, and so on and so forth, get their recruits from people in the exact state of mind that you're talking about now. And of course, we can all relate to that, we've all been in places like that, where, you know, there's something trying to be born inside them, they don't know what it is, that the energy turns dark, and they're looking to some Fuhrer, right?

• 58:09Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 58:10Steven Pressfield?

  That will, you know, Jim Jones in Jonestown, or whatever the hell that thing was, you know? That, that, that, that's where this kind of true believer thing comes from. The recruits that will be, you know, doing this, it comes from, from that.

• 58:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, repressed rage, frustration, and, and then, you know, finding an outlet in a scapegoat, we can, I mean, this is, this is how national, you know, the rise of nationalism and all, it's their fault, they're the reason why I'm unhappy, or I don't have the thing that, that I need, and a strong leader to kind of affirm that sensibility.

• 58:46Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah. But where this is all coming from, getting back to the concept of resistance, if you'll forgive me for throwing that back in there.

• 58:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah, no, this is what we're here to talk about.

• 58:54Steven Pressfield?

  Is that, that the individual soul, being attacked by its own tendency to, to sabotage itself and to prevent itself from, from living out its destiny, and being unaware of this, nobody has ever brought this up or taught them or anything like that, inevitably turns down a darker path, and that's where these movements come from. I know I'm super oversimplifying it, but we're in this place now, the world is, where freedom is possible, and the top of that Maslow pyramid is possible for lots of people, and it's called, and this is the dark side of that, if you ask me.

• 59:35Rich Roll?

  Right, because if it's possible and you're not experiencing it, that has to be extra painful.

• 59:40Steven Pressfield?

  Yes.

• 59:41Rich Roll?

  If you're in a, if you're in a society or a situation where it's not possible, perhaps you could find peace with your circumstances.

• 59:46Steven Pressfield?

  Yes. It's like, um, de Tocqueville, you know, talking about democracy in America.

• 59:53Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 59:53Steven Pressfield?

  When there's a society that's theoretically, at least of equals and theoretically free, so that everybody can be whatever they want to be. If somebody else is living that out and you're not, that's a hell of a approach.

• 1:00:09Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:00:09Steven Pressfield?

  Even if it's unconscious, you don't know that. I mean, I think this whole, I know we're getting into politics here a little bit.

• 1:00:14Rich Roll?

  No, this is a joke.

• 1:00:15Steven Pressfield?

  It's kind of like the know-nothing party, you know, and the concept of, of people saying, "He's no better than me, that son of a bitch." You know, who's he to tell me that I should get shots? Or that I should vacci-, you know, whatever it is. That, that kind of concept of, uh, if he can, you know, live out his life or dream and I'm not, then something, then that's something, it's very hard to live with.

• 1:00:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:44Steven Pressfield?

  And something has to give somewhere in there.

• 1:00:46Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:00:46Steven Pressfield?

  Anyway, I should stop with this.

• 1:00:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, no, no, no. I mean, I think that makes a lot of sense. So that's how, you know, that's how resistance operates, you know, with, how it dances with dark forces.

• 1:00:56Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:57Rich Roll?

  Right? Um, and can, you know, lead people down a path that, you know,

• 1:01:02Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:03Rich Roll?

  Be better, less blazed, I guess, right? Um, but if somebody is, like, let's say somebody is feeling stuck and they are in a kind of a, you know, quote unquote, dead end situation, and they're harboring some aspiration of their, for their life being different or better, and they can't see the path forward, and they pick up, you know, the war of art, like, what is the, you know, the aspiration that you have for that person? I mean, I think that there is, regardless of your circumstance, there still exists the ability to change in a positive way, even if incrementally.

• 1:01:40Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah, I absolutely think so. I mean, I'm proof of that.

• 1:01:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:45Steven Pressfield?

  But, um, and I dare say that if we...

• 1:01:50Steven Pressfield?

  If you could bring in, you know, three or four people and sit them down here who are in that sort of state of, you know, seeking something but not being able to put their finger on it, and we said to them, "Okay, answer in 1.2 seconds. What is your dream that you're not doing?" They'd know it, you know? They might be ashamed to say it, or embarrassed to say it, but they'd know it, you know? And so then it's a question of, "Well, what are you gonna do about that?" You know, is there any, what's the first step to going there?

• 1:02:20Rich Roll?

  Or what are you willing to risk or sacrifice?

• 1:02:23Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:24Rich Roll?

  And not everybody's willing to, you know, kind of implode their life in the pursuit of whatever that aspiration is, and that's okay also.

• 1:02:31Steven Pressfield?

  True.

• 1:02:32Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:02:33Steven Pressfield?

  And of course, you know, you don't have to blow up your life to do it, you know? You can do it in one hour a day.

• 1:02:38Rich Roll?

  Right. How did you not end up, you know, pursuing kind of a Robert McKee, you know, kind of, "I'm gonna do seminars and teach people the War of Art," you know, career path?

• 1:02:55Steven Pressfield?

  That would be...

• 1:02:56Rich Roll?

  I'm sure that must have, you know, you must have thought of that, you're friends with Robert, you were here when he, you know, you brought him here to do the podcast. It's interesting, because you guys kind of speak to the same things, but you're also really different guys.

• 1:03:10Steven Pressfield?

  Well, you know, I've thought about, you know, from time to time, people have said to me, you know, "You could, you're leaving a lot of money on the table, but I would have to kill myself if I did that," you know, so I just...

• 1:03:23Rich Roll?

  You knew yourself well enough to know that that's not for you.

• 1:03:26Steven Pressfield?

  It's just not for me.

• 1:03:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:28Steven Pressfield?

  Not at all.

• 1:03:29Rich Roll?

  Do you look back...

• 1:03:30Steven Pressfield?

  I'm a writer, I just wanna write.

• 1:03:31Rich Roll?

  I wanna talk about some of the Hollywood stuff, because the stories, like, in the book are insane. But do you look back on, you know, either the Hollywood phase, or even, you know, all these, all these different jobs that you had? I mean, there is a, you must have sort of a romantic relationship with that period of time, even if in the midst of it, it was confusing for you.

• 1:03:51Steven Pressfield?

  That's true. That's, that's very astute. It's like... In the midst of it, it was hell on earth, you know? But when I look back on it now that I'm sort of out of it, I think it was probably, all of it was probably the best sort of stuff that could have happened to me. And that to knock the snot out of my nose and to put my feet on the ground and to give me some role models that I have, you know, that I could call on, you know, anytime I needed to do that, that's who I want to be, you know? That's how the way, how would so and so treat this situation? So, yeah, I do sort of romanticize and I really feel like if I hadn't had that period of my life, I don't know where I'd be now.

• 1:04:35Steven Pressfield?

  But that was absolutely essential. Way better than four years at, you know, whatever institute.

• 1:04:43Rich Roll?

  Right, some writing academy or wherever where you just were, where all of it was explained to you.

• 1:04:48Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:49Rich Roll?

  But do you look back and think, well, I could have saved eight years here and there? Like I could have snipped around the corners a little bit? Or are you able to really value and appreciate all the, you know, all the color and nuance of those experiences?

• 1:05:01Steven Pressfield?

  I value every minute of it. I really don't think I could have accelerated it at any, it wasn't like there was any hack that I could have done or anything I could have leapfrogged. You know, like the Hollywood period, you know? I learned a lot, you know? It was sort of the school of hard knocks, you learn this, you learn this, you learn this. And if you didn't learn them, you wouldn't have them, you know?

• 1:05:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, the fork in the road there is, you know, I could see an alternate reality where you did stay there or you worked it out with your agent or whatever, or you found a way to make peace with writing screenplays because you were having success. And by all indications, had you hung in in that world, you know, who knows what would have happened? But I have no doubt that you would have become a prominent, you know, well-produced screenplay writer, you know, in this town. You end up making this other decision that you explain, you know, liberally in the book. But do you ever think like, I wonder what would have happened if I just kept doing that?

• 1:05:59Steven Pressfield?

  No, I don't.

• 1:06:00Rich Roll?

  You don't, right?

• 1:06:00Steven Pressfield?

  Because again, it's sort of, and I'm just thinking of this right now, just as we're talking. What happened was the idea for The Legend of Bag of Ants came to me as a book, not as a screenplay. So, and it just came to me, just like talking about the muse there was, the whole thing, you know? And, and I knew, or I wasn't, no, I didn't really understand this at the moment, but the fact that it was a book, inevitably, my agent was gonna fire me.

• 1:06:30Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:06:31Steven Pressfield?

  Because he'd worked too hard, you know?

• 1:06:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:34Steven Pressfield?

  He can't go off and do that, right? So, again, it was sort of other forces, you know, mysterious forces, that intervened. Like, I had no choice. I mean, this, this idea came, I was just seized by it. It seemed to me completely uncommercial. I had no thought like, oh, this is great, you know?

• 1:06:54Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:06:55Steven Pressfield?

  I thought, this is the dumbest idea I've ever had. Who's gonna want, you know? But I just had to do it. So, I didn't really have a choice. And I'm glad, you know? I'm glad I got out of that world.

• 1:07:05Rich Roll?

  Right. Well, it is interesting that the thing that everybody told you not to do, that was the least commercial thing you could possibly do, and was effectively career suicide in Hollywood, was the one thing that kind of worked and gave you this new life.

• 1:07:21Steven Pressfield?

  And not only that, it became a movie.

• 1:07:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it becomes this movie, right? And there's

• 1:07:26Steven Pressfield?

  Not a good movie, but it became a movie.

• 1:07:27Rich Roll?

  Issues with the movie, but like, Matt Damon was in the movie.

• 1:07:29Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:30Rich Roll?

  That's so kind of ironic, and, and the compunction that you had, like, the clarity of like, I don't care, this is right, I'm doing this, I'm willing to have my agent fire me, and all these repercussions are of no matter, because I am, you know, I am in communion with the muse, and this is, this is, this is what has to be.

• 1:07:50Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:51Rich Roll?

  And that is, that's earned, right? Like, that's earned over the many years of being in the process and understanding, you know, what made you tick, and what was important to you, and what your values were.

• 1:08:02Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:03Rich Roll?

  Like, you can't, that doesn't come in, you know, some seminar, or, you know?

• 1:08:08Steven Pressfield?

  No.

• 1:08:09Rich Roll?

  Some writing program, that's through life.

• 1:08:11Steven Pressfield?

  And the other thing, Rich, was that The Legend of Bagger Vance, the book at least, was qualitatively different than anything I had done before. And even though I had done some good things, screenplays that never got produced, you know, but where, but you know, if you read them, you'd say, oh, these are good, you know? But that book was qualitatively different and I can't even really describe it other than to say it was really coming from me. You know, it wasn't me doing a genre, you know, let's do a Western, let's do a detective story. It was coming straight from me and everything since then has been straight from me too.

• 1:08:48Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:08:48Steven Pressfield?

  So something changed, some Tumblr clicked over there and I can only say it happened on another dimension of reality. And then the word, you know, the telegram came down to me. It had nothing to do with any decision I made or anything I did.

• 1:09:03Rich Roll?

  Right, which then goes back to the original question, where do ideas come from?

• 1:09:07Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:08Rich Roll?

  I mean, you did, you were a caddy when you were a kid and so you have this experience in the world of golf, but the merging of golf and the Bhagavad Gita and then like, you know, Gates of Fire, like these other books that you've written, like the original notion for them, the inception point, like that's where the mystery resides, right? Cause you don't, you can't locate that.

• 1:09:28Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah. The other side of the mystery is, at least is that for my career, for what I've, the things I've done, each book is a surprise to me, you know? It's like, you know, the assignment comes down, I get the envelope from the muse and I open it up and go, that? You know?

• 1:09:49Rich Roll?

  And how does that like, when you wake up in the morning and or after, you know, like it just, it just arrives, like what is the experience of that for you? Like, how do you know?

• 1:09:58Steven Pressfield?

  Um, well, let's say the, the idea for Gates of Fire, the book about the Battle of Thermopylae, which was the second book after Bagger Vance. So I write this one book that's this crazy sort of golf story. How do you follow that? Am I gonna write another, you know? And so, but yet, once you have one book, you know, they want you to do another one. So I was just, you know, casting about for what to do and I happened to be reading Herodotus, you know, and I got to that part where they're talking about the Spartans at Thermopylae. And there was a section in there and it just was like a thunderbolt type of thing where I thought, this is it. And I thought, you know, I can write this. There's a story here and I can write it.

• 1:10:39Steven Pressfield?

  And here's, here's the sort of handle. But that was nothing I had ever prepared for. It wasn't like I was a classical scholar. Wasn't like I, I ever thought of doing anything historical. I'd never thought of that. But once it was sort of there on the table, I thought, this, I've gotta do it. This is the thing. Again, it's a mystery. But I do believe there's, must be some sort of law to that, that when something real lands on your plate, it's a surprise. Otherwise, there's something wrong, I think, you know? It'd be interesting to hear what Bruce Springsteen or Bob Dylan would say about it. Cause so, so much of their stuff seems like part of a, of an overall theme, you know?

• 1:11:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:24Steven Pressfield?

  But I, I would bet they would, I would bet Bruce Springsteen would say, you know, Tom Joad was completely different from whatever came before that, you know? Even though it might look like it's not.

• 1:11:34Rich Roll?

  Right. And, and of course, they would all say that in their peak creative moments, that there is an effortlessness to it, that it's flowing through them, that, you know, the, the body and the mind acts as a channel, right? And your job is to just, you know, let it, let it flow out. And the source of which, you know, is, that's what resides in the mystical unknown, right? And, and when this thing lands on your, on your plate, boom, here it is. It's your job to run with that. But if you don't, what are you saying to the, what are you saying to the universe? What are you saying to the muse, right?

• 1:12:12Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:13Rich Roll?

  And then what is the cost? What's the cost of that?

• 1:12:15Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah. Yeah. I think you get sick, you know? Something happens to you, something bad happens to you.

• 1:12:20Rich Roll?

  Cause there's a, there's a, there's a dissonance, like you're not living in integrity with that. That like

• 1:12:27Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah, and it's not like, for me at least, it's not like it just flows immediately. It's still an incredible grind and incredible hell that you have to go through to do it. But, but there is that sense of blessedness in there somewhere. That doesn't go away.

• 1:12:44Rich Roll?

  Have you read Elizabeth Gilbert's book, Big Magic?

• 1:12:48Steven Pressfield?

  I have it, but I, and I know what it's about. I have not read it.

• 1:12:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I don't.

• 1:12:52Steven Pressfield?

  But I've listened to all her other stuff and I'm in complete agreement with her.

• 1:12:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you should. Big Magic is like, you know, a compendium to the War of Art. I mean, her notion is, I mean, it's back to that idea of the collective knowing or the collective consciousness. And, you know, when that impulse to express something exists, like you're, that idea lives up here, right? And, and you pull it down and you either express it. But if you don't, if you pass, you're like, I'm not going to do that. Someone else is going to pull it down. Like, it's out there, which is why, you know, there's two volcano movies that come out at the same time, where these things tend to be like, there's trends, you know, like, oh, why is, you know, these, these two artists who live on the other side of the planet and don't know each other, both created something that, you know,

• 1:13:40Rich Roll?

  kind of they, they're similar in certain ways, like the idea that there are, there are ideas out there objectively.

• 1:13:47Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:48Rich Roll?

  And back to the antenna, like, are you, are you receiving that signal? Is that signal for you?

• 1:13:53Steven Pressfield?

  I agree with that. I know, there was that great Elizabeth Gilbert story. I forget the other female writer that, they became friends and they kissed and some idea got passed, like, Elizabeth Gilbert had sort of started a book and then kind of let it, left it on the shelf because she had other things. And when she went back to it, it was stale. It wouldn't happen. And then after this kiss, I forget the other writer's name, also famous, really wonderful female writer.

• 1:14:21Rich Roll?

  This sounds familiar, yeah.

• 1:14:22Steven Pressfield?

  She wrote the book and it won a Pulitzer Prize or something.

• 1:14:24Rich Roll?

  Right, so that's.

• 1:14:25Steven Pressfield?

  But, in my opinion.

• 1:14:28Rich Roll?

  I don't know if I agree with that. Maybe, yeah, she, this is, you know, I don't know.

• 1:14:31Steven Pressfield?

  I think that those ideas just come to one person alone. That's my.

• 1:14:36Rich Roll?

  Well, the expression of the idea is going to be different contingent on the person, but perhaps the core idea itself, you know? I mean, how that idea is expressed is obviously going to be different from person to person.

• 1:14:46Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:47Rich Roll?

  So, I don't know.

• 1:14:48Steven Pressfield?

  It's all a mystery.

• 1:14:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, how are you, you know, what is the, what is the pro, for somebody? I don't want to assume that anybody who's listening or watching this, listen to our first conversation, so maybe, you know, let's explain. At hour 113, like, what is the War of Art? What are you trying to tell people? And how can somebody who's new to these ideas, start to think about, you know, investing in their own creative expression?

• 1:15:14Steven Pressfield?

  Are you asking me to like, talk about the War of Art?

• 1:15:17Rich Roll?

  Well, just in general, in broad strokes, so, you know, we're kind of grounded in the vernacular of what we're talking about.

• 1:15:24Steven Pressfield?

  The concept of an earlier book of mine called The War of Art, is that there is this negative force out there, that I call resistance with a capital R. And it equates to a voice in our head, that tells us, "You're no good, you can't do this, who are you to think of whatever project that you have in your mind, and also to distract you. Let's go to the beach, let's have another drink, let's have an affair, da-da-da-da-da." And, the concept is that, if you decide you want to be in the creative arts, it's a war. And you're gonna have to fight this dragon, every morning that you wake up.

• 1:16:06Steven Pressfield?

  This dragon of self-sabotage, and self-doubt, and all that kind of thing. And that, to do that, you have to find some kind of a mindset, whatever it is. You know, a warrior mindset, the mindset of a mother, that's gonna protect, you know, the life growing within her, whatever it is, that, to overcome that thing called resistance. That it is a war, and you have to fight it every day.

• 1:16:31Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. And, the war never abates.

• 1:16:34Steven Pressfield?

  Never abates.

• 1:16:35Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:16:36Steven Pressfield?

  Never gets any less.

• 1:16:37Rich Roll?

  Like, the idea that you, you had to go to war with it for this, for this book. Reading that blog post, and all the negative self-talk, you know, that you're telling yourself about this book, after all the successes in the many, many books that you've written. Like, I don't know whether to feel kinship with you, or feel depressed about that.

• 1:16:56Steven Pressfield?

  But it does seem to be a law, Rich, that we've talked about this before, that when you're on to something that's real, that you really should be doing, self doubt is enormous, you know? It's never, uh, it's never like, oh, I can't wait to do this. This is so great. It's gonna be so wonderful. It's always like, oh, God, why did I come up with this terrible idea? This, you know, my whatever reputation I have isn't me in a toilet when I'm through with this one, you know? Whatever. So that, that, uh, that is a thing that must be overcome, that self doubt, and it never goes away.

• 1:17:31Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:17:31Steven Pressfield?

  Um, and I had a lot of self doubt on, you know, on government cheese, which is like stories from my life, right? I'm thinking to myself as I'm writing it, what do you? Everybody wants to read your stupid stories, right? Everybody's got a million stories, you know, you wanna tell a story, but when you're picking apples in Washington, who cares about it? You know, and so I, you know, I think to myself, you're an idiot for doing this. Everybody's gonna hate it, or they won't even care at all, you know? But I, I know from experience that that self doubt is a good sign. That it's, you know, the bigger the resistance, the bigger the dream. So as we talked about before too.

• 1:18:10Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:18:11Steven Pressfield?

  So, uh, so that kept me going, you know? But I know that that happens in every project and then it'll be in the future. I'll always have to deal with that, and I think everybody has to deal with it.

• 1:18:20Rich Roll?

  Right, and, and it just morphs and changes, right? So when you're, when you're unsuccessful, it's, you know, who do you think you are? When you become successful, it's like you're gonna ruin everything you worked hard to create, or they're gonna find out you're an imposter, all of that. Like it just, it just pivots, right? And like, why is that? Why does that exist? Like, why is it that, that, you know, we have to go to war with this thing? Like, why can't we just be in our expressed self? I'm sure there are people who have very little resistance. I wish I was one of those people. I'm not, you know?

• 1:18:55Steven Pressfield?

  There are people who have very little resistance. I can't, so when I talk to people like that, I go, I'm looking at them, I go, you need to tell me the truth. There's no way it's that easy for you, you know? But some people do.

• 1:19:06Rich Roll?

  For some people, right? And I think those people, when they become successful, that's what we all look to and say, well, you know, obviously, like... This world is reserved for people like that.

• 1:19:17Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah, maybe. But did you see the Howard Stern, Bruce Springsteen?

• 1:19:23Rich Roll?

  No.

• 1:19:24Steven Pressfield?

  Oh, it was really great. And the, just really recent, I don't know, on HBO or something like that. But even Bruce Springsteen had to struggle like hell. You know, these albums didn't just flow, you know? They were, they'd do, you know, months and months trying to get something right, you know? And before they finally got it together, you know? So that was very encouraging.

• 1:19:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's, it's.

• 1:19:44Steven Pressfield?

  It wasn't easy for him either.

• 1:19:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah, it's good to see all of those things. Um, when you, at the very, I listened to the, so I listened to Government Cheese on audiobook. I had to drive to Fresno and back on the same day for, uh, for a memorial. My college friend's coach passed away. Um, so I had eight hours in the car, so I listened to it literally over the course of a day. And, and at the very end, as you conclude the book, when the book's kind of done, then you do a little kind of riff. Like it's not, doesn't feel written or scripted. And you're just like, I hope you guys liked it and got like something out of this. And I hope it was like, but then you, you end it, like I, I, I was tearing up. Like it just felt very heartfelt. And you said, you know, I hope this is instructive and helpful on your journey, you know?

• 1:20:31Rich Roll?

  And you end the book with this word journey. And I immediately thought like, what would Robert McKee think about that? Because he, he has such a problem with this idea of life being a journey. You, you, and I would agree with you, like, I think life is a journey and I think that we're all on some, you know, are, you, you can, you can look at your life and, and, and lay on top of it, that kind of hero's journey, architecture of it. And on some level, we're all living a version of that.

• 1:21:02Steven Pressfield?

  I think so, absolutely. Yeah.

• 1:21:04Rich Roll?

  And, and that is a journey. So like,

• 1:21:06Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:06Rich Roll?

  Have you had debates with Robert about this?

• 1:21:09Steven Pressfield?

  No, I was sort of surprised when he said that, you know?

• 1:21:11Rich Roll?

  Really?

• 1:21:12Steven Pressfield?

  Cause I thought that his, I would have said his teachings are really all about it.

• 1:21:16Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 1:21:16Steven Pressfield?

  You know? So, yeah. No, I haven't had.

• 1:21:19Rich Roll?

  What is that about then?

• 1:21:20Steven Pressfield?

  I don't know.

• 1:21:21Rich Roll?

  He really bristles at that.

• 1:21:22Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah, yeah. I don't know. He's also a believer. I have a disagreement with him about talent. You know, where he says like, talent is everything, you know?

• 1:21:31Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:21:32Steven Pressfield?

  And I say, talent is bullshit, you know? So, I don't know. And he thinks I'm crazy and I think he's overstating.

• 1:21:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, no, it's great. Like, I, I think like a podcast between the two of you guys would be like fascinating, right? Just on like-

• 1:21:44Steven Pressfield?

  Which one of us would lead it? I don't know.

• 1:21:46Rich Roll?

  Well, I don't know. I mean, I just think there's something, yeah, like his thing is, I do these seminars and all these yahoos show up. And like, my job is to weed them out and disabuse them of like, any kind of, you know, career glory that they're, that they're fantasizing about because it's hard, right? And you can't, if you're gonna do it, you gotta be fully committed. And I think you would agree on the fully committed part.

• 1:22:07Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:07Rich Roll?

  But I think where you, you differ is you have kind of a sweeter sensibility and, and, and a hopefulness and a, and an optimism that, you know, we all have something here to express and we should be, it's not indulgent to, you know, go on that journey of self-exploration. And maybe it doesn't land you in Hollywood writing screenplays that you sell, but that's beside the point because it's a worthy, that is a worthy, you know, investment of your time for yourself.

• 1:22:35Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah, that's exactly how I feel.

• 1:22:37Rich Roll?

  So.

• 1:22:38Steven Pressfield?

  So I have more, I have compassion for the struggling person.

• 1:22:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah, he does.

• 1:22:41Steven Pressfield?

  Because that was me forever.

• 1:22:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and he's like, don't waste my time. Like, if you had, if you had shown up in Robert's seminar, you know-

• 1:22:49Steven Pressfield?

  Which I did, like, multiple times.

• 1:22:51Rich Roll?

  Oh, you did?

• 1:22:51Steven Pressfield?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:22:52Rich Roll?

  And he didn't, he didn't like, sort of, make you feel so terrible about yourself that you were gonna quit and just-

• 1:22:58Steven Pressfield?

  No, because he was giving out such great information. And he was so passionate about, you know, like Paul Rinke, my other mentor. You know, the thing about Robert McKee that's so powerful is that he really believes in writing, you know? And, you know, he, you know, a lot of people might, today might say, who gives a shit? You know, if somebody wrote a book, some novel, we're never gonna read it, right? But he believes, you know, you've got a gift, you gotta give it to the world and you gotta give it to absolutely the best you can possibly do and not blow it off in any way. And that's very inspiring. He usually, he concludes his, you know, seminars with that kind of thought. You know, like, go forth, you sons of bitches, you know, and, and do something good.

• 1:23:39Rich Roll?

  Were you, did you go to those seminars when you were in Hollywood writing screenplays?

• 1:23:42Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:43Steven Pressfield?

  They cost a hundred bucks.

• 1:23:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:47Steven Pressfield?

  They're still pretty cheap at like a thousand bucks.

• 1:23:49Rich Roll?

  Really?

• 1:23:49Steven Pressfield?

  That's not so bad, right?

• 1:23:50Rich Roll?

  Well, he's done now, though.

• 1:23:51Steven Pressfield?

  Four days.

• 1:23:51Rich Roll?

  He's retired, right?

• 1:23:52Steven Pressfield?

  Too bad, yeah.

• 1:23:52Rich Roll?

  So I think this podcast is gonna go up right around the same time as, uh, cause we recorded that one with, with Robert a while back.

• 1:23:59Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:00Rich Roll?

  But I think these are gonna go up kind of around each other.

• 1:24:01Steven Pressfield?

  Ah.

• 1:24:03Rich Roll?

  Which will be interesting.

• 1:24:04Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah, it will be interesting.

• 1:24:04Rich Roll?

  Um, but during this period of time in which you're, you're a screenwriter, like you have some success, you hook up with this guy, you call him Stanley, but what I got out of reading that part of the book is you also learned a lot about structure and form and the idea of like, kind of, uh, mixing different influences and genres. He's like, we're, it's gonna be this movie meets this movie and we're gonna blend these things to, you know, together and we're gonna create something unique out of that. And just like the banging out of scripts and like kind of, um, process of, of being a writer like made you a stronger writer. And perhaps the idea of Bagger Vance being like the Bhagavad Gita and golf coming together would not have occurred without, you know, the kind of apprenticeship with this guy

• 1:24:49Rich Roll?

  who...

• 1:24:50Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah. I feel like it was a great apprenticeship where I really learned so much and, uh, yeah, I have nothing but gratitude for that, for that period.

• 1:25:00Rich Roll?

  Right. Am I wrong to think or to say that there's a part of me that wishes, uh, that, that wants to see you kind of flex your muscle in the screenplay world? Like you, because you, cause I feel like you, you went off and then wrote Bagger Vance and opted out of that world altogether, right when you were on the precipice of like showing the world what you actually were truly capable of in that, in that world. But you're good, you're good. You don't wanna do that.

• 1:25:30Steven Pressfield?

  No. Um, yeah, I don't wanna do that. I mean, in reality, you well know, Rich, the only way to really do that is to become a director, to be a writer-director and do it. And that was just beyond what I wanted to even think about.

• 1:25:42Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:25:43Steven Pressfield?

  Otherwise, the writer is always gonna be fired and replaced and, you know, it's just in the nature of the movie business.

• 1:25:48Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:25:50Rich Roll?

  What is it that you, you want people to, to get out of government cheese? I mean, I think I know, but like you tell me what you think.

• 1:25:58Steven Pressfield?

  I, I, I hope that somebody that's feels lost and struggling and like, when is this tunnel? When do I get out of this tunnel? That they'll read government cheese and say, press field story is exactly like mine. You know, the maybe the, you know, and it's just, it's the hero's journey. It's the process and, you know, be patient. Yeah. Don't lose heart. So I hope it's an inspiration to, to people a little bit.

• 1:26:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, I, I think it, I think it certainly is that. I mean, I think it really, you know, in the tunnel of like how long it, you know, how long you were in the tunnel. It's certainly, you're like, oh my God, like how is this guy still driving a truck? It's inspirational in that there were so many instances in which I feel like a normal person would have just given up, you know? And the fact that you stayed in it even while that typewriter was hidden for so long. It was lurking, you know, in the back of your mind, obviously, and, you know, pulling on your soul and, and, you know, had this yearning that you couldn't shake. And, you know, the fact that it took as long as it took is, is a story about it takes what it takes.

• 1:27:15Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:16Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 1:27:16Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah. What more could I say?

• 1:27:19Rich Roll?

  I don't know.

• 1:27:19Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah. It's like, like I said, it's like swimming in the ocean. It's like, what's the alternative?

• 1:27:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:24Steven Pressfield?

  You stop and you go to the down, you know?

• 1:27:27Rich Roll?

  And, and there's no, there's no plan B. You're like, this is, I'm in it, you're in it, right? And so if anything, that might be intimidating for people though, like, do you have to be in it in the way that like Stephen is in it or was in it or thinks about being in it?

• 1:27:46Steven Pressfield?

  But you do, right? Unless you, I mean, hopefully, most people don't have to pay the dues as much as I did. But you do have to learn, right? If you were gonna be a brain surgeon or a concert pianist, you would know that you have a certain apprenticeship ahead of you, a certain education you have to have, skills you have to acquire. But a lot of times, in the arts, particularly in these days where, you know, you can do a sex tape and, you know, you're famous, you think, oh, there's a hack and I'll do that. So, but it's not true. You have to, you have to learn the game, you know?

• 1:28:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, it is an interesting and kind of disorienting time in that regard because creative product, you know, it's called content, right?

• 1:28:33Steven Pressfield?

  Content, boy, do I hate that.

• 1:28:34Rich Roll?

  Is, is, is essentially ephemeral, like, it comes and goes.

• 1:28:38Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:39Rich Roll?

  And, and that applies to books as well. Like, we're, you know, here, we get like every, like, every new book in the self-help kind of whatever, like, it arrives here, right?

• 1:28:50Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:28:51Rich Roll?

  And so, you get, we get, after getting like

• 1:28:53Steven Pressfield?

  They arrive on my doorstep, too.

• 1:28:54Rich Roll?

  10, 20 books a week.

• 1:28:55Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:56Rich Roll?

  And then you never hear, you know, hear from these, some of them are actually New York Times bestsellers, or they, but then a week later, you don't know. You start to have, like, I've become a little cynical about it, like, does this matter? It's so hard to write a book, and these books come, and like, and I'm somebody who should care about all these books, and even I'm looking at it like, okay, so this guy's got the answer this week, and I should read this book. And there's so many, you know, movies and television shows coming out all the time that you can't stay on top of it. And what is worthy of that tug on the soul that's gonna be so painful, that's gonna, you know, force you to grapple with the, you know, with the resistance and all of that?

• 1:29:39Steven Pressfield?

  You're not gonna like this, but I'm gonna have to give you props for Finding Ultra. That was one, that was a book that stood out and will last, you know? And, you know, God bless you for doing it, you know? That came out of your soul, you know? And that came through hard work and everything. But that's, that's a real story. That's a, that's a real hero's journey, if there ever was one.

• 1:30:00Rich Roll?

  Well, I appreciate that.

• 1:30:01Steven Pressfield?

  You know, I take my hat off to you for that one.

• 1:30:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah, thanks, but, but then, you know, that, that was quickly followed by, you know, the resistance, you know, basically doing pushups in the dark. And now it's like, well, you can't write a book like that again. Or you already told your story. What else you have left to say? Like all of that kind of stuff, right? So I'm doing war with that a little bit at the moment. I think I've, I think I have an idea though. I'm not ready to talk about it publicly, but I'm gonna share it with you when we're done here.

• 1:30:27Steven Pressfield?

  Okay, great.

• 1:30:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:28Steven Pressfield?

  I can, I can tell you right now, before you say a word, that's the idea you should do it.

• 1:30:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:34Steven Pressfield?

  Before you say, I can just tell by the look on your face.

• 1:30:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, how, how do you know?

• 1:30:37Steven Pressfield?

  Cause I can see the resistance radiating off you, but I can also see the dream. I can see it. You don't even have to tell me the idea. I know. And I'm, and I'm, say this with a thousand percent certainty, do it. You know, and do it with the same, you know, confidence, or I hope you had confidence while you were doing Finding Ultra. But let me ask you this, is it completely different from that?

• 1:31:01Rich Roll?

  Yes.

• 1:31:01Steven Pressfield?

  Ah, okay, that's a great sign. That's what it should be.

• 1:31:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:05Steven Pressfield?

  I can see it right in your eyes. It's amazing.

• 1:31:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I'll just tell you what's going on in my, what's going on in my head.

• 1:31:11Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:12Rich Roll?

  So in my mind, I'm like, oh shit, like this is being recorded now if I don't do it, now I'm gonna really feel bad and I'm gonna feel like I let Stephen down. And I don't wanna let, let Stephen down.

• 1:31:24Steven Pressfield?

  Then don't let me down.

• 1:31:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:25Steven Pressfield?

  But don't let yourself down, no. But this is great, Rich, cause I, it's really great for me to see that you've got that. You know, that, that flame there, that little, that little fetus that's kinda growing, you know, it's got a little toenail now.

• 1:31:35Rich Roll?

  It's, it's, it's, yeah, it might only be two or three cells right now.

• 1:31:40Steven Pressfield?

  But, no, it sounds like it's a little bigger than that to me.

• 1:31:43Rich Roll?

  But, uh, yeah, actually, I, I feel excited about.

• 1:31:49Rich Roll?

  This in a way that I haven't felt in a long time. And I feel like I'm on to something, but the resistance is very strong. And so the only way that I can do battle with that resistance is to really lower the stakes as much as possible. And Seth Godin's been helpful with this. So it's really like, right now, it's really just about like free form journaling and not being judgmental about anything to just get, to just build a little bit of momentum. So, you know, two cells go to four cells or whatever.

• 1:32:20Steven Pressfield?

  I think that's exactly right.

• 1:32:21Rich Roll?

  And I think momentum is really crucial and important, as we touched on before. Like, I just know when I have momentum, then you're in a self perpetuating situation where the flow comes easier. But if you're stop and start and all of that, it becomes impossible.

• 1:32:37Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So I'm trying to respect that.

• 1:32:39Steven Pressfield?

  You've had the experience, you know, both in finding ultra and in athletics, you know, of showing up every day and rolling the P every day. So, you know, I think.

• 1:32:53Rich Roll?

  I know how to roll the P, but I've had a really hard time figuring out what P to roll in the writing, in the writing game. And I took, you know, it's been 10 years, honestly. So, and then I can beat my, I beat myself up about that.

• 1:33:06Steven Pressfield?

  Ah.

• 1:33:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:07Steven Pressfield?

  That's resistance too. You just have to sort of dismiss that.

• 1:33:11Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 1:33:12Steven Pressfield?

  And remember, like, the, the measure of self doubt is the measure of how great the idea is, right? So the more self doubt you have, the better the idea is, right?

• 1:33:26Rich Roll?

  Is that always true though? Is that always true?

• 1:33:29Steven Pressfield?

  It's always true. It's always true.

• 1:33:32Rich Roll?

  Because it's plausible that you have a really bad idea and that self doubt is like, yeah, you really shouldn't.

• 1:33:38Steven Pressfield?

  Looking in your eyes that that's not one of them. This is not, this is not that.

• 1:33:42Rich Roll?

  Hmm. All right. Will you be my accountability partner?

• 1:33:47Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah, no, please. Somebody taught me this, that to start with, when you're writing a thing, with the first thought, the first sentence is, "And the bad version of this is," colon, and then start.

• 1:34:02Rich Roll?

  Oh, that's, that's a good trick. I like that.

• 1:34:05Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah. And just, you know, in other words, it's like Seth lowering the expectations.

• 1:34:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:12Steven Pressfield?

  You know, it doesn't have to be brilliant, just get something down.

• 1:34:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:15Steven Pressfield?

  And if I can help you in any way, other than reading, I will. Count on me as any kind of a resource.

• 1:34:24Rich Roll?

  I appreciate that. You know, Seth said the same thing to me, and I feel like, wow, like, those are the best mentors anybody could possibly ever dream of, you know, to say, "I'm happy to like, you know, give you feedback," or whatever.

• 1:34:38Steven Pressfield?

  It's an honor.

• 1:34:39Rich Roll?

  Like, it's incredible. So, so again, then it's like, well, if I don't do this, then that's a massive betrayal of the muse, I think, or, you know, or of myself.

• 1:34:47Steven Pressfield?

  You will do it.

• 1:34:48Rich Roll?

  You know, it's a dragon. All the, all the excuses.

• 1:34:54Steven Pressfield?

  So, this is great. I'm very happy to hear this, Rich, you know, that there's a, it's so great to have that thing growing in you. What are, what's better than that?

• 1:35:02Rich Roll?

  I know. But it's also, you know how hard it's gonna be, right? And you're like...

• 1:35:08Steven Pressfield?

  It's hard to run five Ironmans on five different islands.

• 1:35:11Rich Roll?

  Welcome this pain into my life.

• 1:35:13Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:14Rich Roll?

  You know? Thank you. I appreciate that. Has your routine remained the same? I know that like, you know, your physical fitness routine is really important. You get up really early in the morning, and you kind of have like, this is how you do it, and is that, does that, has that evolved at all, or?

• 1:35:30Steven Pressfield?

  It has evolved.

• 1:35:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:32Steven Pressfield?

  You know, I, I wasn't always doing physical stuff first thing in the morning, and, and these days, starting this new publishing company, that takes a lot of time, even, even though Diana does all the work. So, I have to sort of find a couple of hours a day. Like, today, I'm, I'm not doing any work, you know? I'm dedicating, there's other stuff. And Christmas, you know, but... But I do still absolutely believe you gotta keep that momentum going, even if it's only a little bit. So it's harder for me to find. You know, there's a time in government cheese where I talk about when I was working on that book

• 1:36:16Steven Pressfield?

  and I was in this little house all by myself and I had nothing. I had no girlfriend, no radio.

• 1:36:21Rich Roll?

  You had a cat, though.

• 1:36:22Steven Pressfield?

  I had a cat, but the cat's quiet, you know? But I thought to myself, this is hard enough when I have 24 hours a day. What's it gonna be like if I get to a place where I have other things going on? How am I gonna focus? And so I'm sort of, that's the way it's been since then, you know? Where you do have a life, a little bit of a life, anyway. You've got a lot of a life. But you can find the time, just like finding time to train, you know? And that's kind of the way it is for me. I sort of have to, I have to make sure I get it in each day, you know, because otherwise, no good, you know?

• 1:36:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So it's a consistent metronome of like 10 to 1 or whatever it is.

• 1:37:02Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah, something like that, exactly.

• 1:37:04Rich Roll?

  But do you then, like when you're getting close to the finish, do you go down the rabbit hole and disappear or go off to some cabin or hotel room for, you know, six days straight or whatever to like take it across the finish line? Or are you able to maintain some kind of balance?

• 1:37:19Steven Pressfield?

  I haven't done that, but I like that idea.

• 1:37:21Rich Roll?

  I have friends that do that, yeah.

• 1:37:23Steven Pressfield?

  People do that, you know, yeah. Because, again, at the end of a project, resistance gets way, way, way, way, way bigger. So you gotta raise your intensity to combat that. So I understand absolutely going to a cabin or something like that.

• 1:37:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I don't know. I just, I look at the consistency and the kind of balanced equilibrium, like equanimity with which you do it. And I think of Ryan also and the way that he does it. And I don't know, man, my life is like, it's always like, you know, no matter what I try to do to like, you know, kind of flatten the curve between the highs and the lows, like I'm always like surfing some kind of insane, you know?

• 1:38:04Steven Pressfield?

  But I mean, when you train, like when you go out to run the trail or whatever it is. I'm not even sure.

• 1:38:08Rich Roll?

  It is consistent, right? You're on a program or whatever, yeah, and you set a goal.

• 1:38:13Steven Pressfield?

  And that time is like a sacred time for you, right? I mean, you block everything out, right? And you're not, you don't have your iPhone on or anything like that. So same sort of thing, right?

• 1:38:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I think it's an interesting conversation around like structure. You create. You have your goal, like, okay, you're writing this book, it needs to be done by this date, or you're training for this race. And so you establish a program and parameters, and like, I show up every day, and these are the things that I do to move me towards that goal. And those are very practical, real-world kind of considerations in order to achieve the thing that you've set out to achieve. How do you balance that against the mystical Dancing with the Muse and not being attached to the outcome? And yes, I have a goal, but I have to be in surrender also. Like, I have to be open and not rigid

• 1:39:06Rich Roll?

  in how I'm thinking about all of this. Like, that, there is a tension there, right? That I think is delicate, and I'm interested in how that operates for you.

• 1:39:14Steven Pressfield?

  There is a tension, but it does work amazingly enough that you can go into that office, close the door, start to work, and very soon, you know, good stuff will happen. It might not be like thunderbolts of inspiration, but you'll be, you'll get into, I mean, you must have felt this with Finding Ultra, because it was so good, you know? When you're describing, you know, the race, or you're swimming, and you're like, ready to, you know, blow your brains out, because it's so hard. You know, can I keep, you know, you were in a flow of some sort, right? You're describing that, something that happened. And so, the two

• 1:39:55Steven Pressfield?

  things really work absolutely together, the sort of structured aspect of it, and the kind of otherworldly stuff. They absolutely do.

• 1:40:05Rich Roll?

  Right. They have to, well, they have to be in balance with each other, right? Because any, too much of any, of either of those will tip it off its ballast.

• 1:40:12Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah, I think so.

• 1:40:13Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 1:40:13Steven Pressfield?

  But I would imagine, I'm not a meditator, but I would imagine that when you sit to meditate, it's sort of a structured thing, right? Okay, I'm going in this room, locking a door. But once you're, you get to that state, that then your, your mind is empty, or wherever it is that you are, in a kind of another, another place, another spiritual, mental, whatever place. And then when the bell rings, you go out and make dinner.

• 1:40:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah. How come you don't meditate?

• 1:40:39Steven Pressfield?

  I consider my writing is meditation.

• 1:40:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:42Steven Pressfield?

  You know?

• 1:40:43Rich Roll?

  I think meditation is qualitatively different from that.

• 1:40:46Steven Pressfield?

  Ah.

• 1:40:47Rich Roll?

  I do. I think you would get a lot out of a real meditation practice.

• 1:40:51Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah, maybe I'll do that someday.

• 1:40:54Rich Roll?

  You're starting to get sheepish about the whole thing. I think you would, no, I think you would get, I think you would get a lot out of it. I think it, just having awareness of how your consciousness operates, I think, could also act as possibly expanding the portal to the, to the unconscious mind or to the

• 1:41:13Steven Pressfield?

  Could be.

• 1:41:13Rich Roll?

  To the muse, right?

• 1:41:15Steven Pressfield?

  Could be.

• 1:41:15Rich Roll?

  I don't know. You're not going to commit to that, though. What's next? What are you working on now? Or do you not talk about it? Are you like, Seth is like, don't, don't talk, yeah, don't talk about it.

• 1:41:28Steven Pressfield?

  I am working on another thing.

• 1:41:30Rich Roll?

  And what is, what is, talk me through the thinking process around not sharing what you're working, like, the, like, the sacredness of, of protecting it in that way?

• 1:41:42Steven Pressfield?

  It's just bad luck to talk about it somehow. I mean, maybe I, you know, Hemingway used to talk about that, right? That the worst thing you can do is to start telling other people what you're working on. Like, it sort of lets the air out of the balloon. And, I don't know, I'm superstitious somehow. I just feel like it's bad karma.

• 1:41:59Rich Roll?

  Maybe I'm not going to tell you what I'm working on now.

• 1:42:00Steven Pressfield?

  I know.

• 1:42:02Rich Roll?

  Well, that jinx it?

• 1:42:04Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:06Rich Roll?

  Okay, then I won't.

• 1:42:06Steven Pressfield?

  It'll certainly, I mean, it might not derail it, but it's certainly not going to do any good.

• 1:42:11Rich Roll?

  Hmm. I don't know what to do with that. I gotta think about that. I, uh, I'm interested in how ambition plays into all of this. I mean, obviously, you know, you, you had to have ambition, perhaps an outsized ambition, to kind of weather the many years of setbacks and kind of not succeeding, you know, on the level that you, that you felt like you were capable of. How does that, like, do you feel? Satisfied with your career, like when you write books, you're just on to the next one. Obviously, you want them to do well, but like, where does the ambition piece come in? Does it derail you? Are you at peace with it? Like, do you care about how the world receives

• 1:42:55Rich Roll?

  your work, or is it really the work for the work itself?

• 1:43:00Steven Pressfield?

  I do, but, but I've almost given up on it, Rich, you know, because it's like, you know, you never know what work, what particular book is going to get a positive response, or what's going to get in, you know, and I really have tried to stop work. I mean, you can't help but hope for something good to happen.

• 1:43:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:20Steven Pressfield?

  But, you know, like in Hollywood, you know, you work on a script, you work, and nothing happens, right? You can't, you know, you're so used to things going out there and sinking without a trace, that it's just, if I can just have enough juice left to do the next one, and just keep going, and I feel like that's really all I'm trying to do, is just keep.

• 1:43:42Rich Roll?

  And anything beyond that is just a bonus?

• 1:43:44Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah, it's a bonus, yeah.

• 1:43:46Rich Roll?

  And is that part of the impetus in creating this publishing company?

• 1:43:50Steven Pressfield?

  No, that's really more about, my books that are about writing, The War of Art, and those other ones, can be self-published. You know, they don't need a publicist, and in fact, I can't even find a publisher. They don't even want them, you know? So, I do want to have a platform that I can, I don't have to worry about selling it to Harper Collins or something like that. So, other books, fiction or anything like that, then you do have to find a real publisher, so that's a problem.

• 1:44:25Rich Roll?

  So, the purpose of it is just for releasing your own books, or are you going to publish other people's books as well?

• 1:44:30Steven Pressfield?

  No, just my own.

• 1:44:31Rich Roll?

  Just your own books?

• 1:44:32Steven Pressfield?

  And Diana's, you know?

• 1:44:33Rich Roll?

  And how many, how many have you published under your own imprint, then?

• 1:44:38Steven Pressfield?

  Well, if you go back to The War of Art, you know, when... I had a little publishing company called Black Irish with my partner Sean Coyne.

• 1:44:45Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:44:46Steven Pressfield?

  And I think, I think there was like nine books or something like that that we did there. And then two on this new one so far, Government Cheese being the second one.

• 1:44:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, it's interesting in this age of removing the gatekeepers, you know, it's empowering for you to own your own content and control it. And when, you know, the majority of people buy their books on Amazon, why should you pay a publishing house an outsized, you know, percentage of the profits on that?

• 1:45:20Steven Pressfield?

  But the other thing, Rich, is that in all honesty, for a lot of these stuff, books, post-war art, I can't find a publisher.

• 1:45:27Rich Roll?

  Really?

• 1:45:28Steven Pressfield?

  You know?

• 1:45:28Rich Roll?

  I mean, how many, but War of Art still sells like crazy, right? Like?

• 1:45:32Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah, people would like, they would like to buy that.

• 1:45:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:34Steven Pressfield?

  But others, no.

• 1:45:36Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:45:36Steven Pressfield?

  You know? I think, this must be true for other writers, I think a lot of times people think, oh, you've had a book or this or that, so you can sell anything. Not true.

• 1:45:45Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:45:46Steven Pressfield?

  Not true at all. You can't even get an agent, you know? I mean, it's like, you know?

• 1:45:49Rich Roll?

  That's crazy to me. That's crazy to me. I mean, it is, I think, you know, publishing is going the way of the movie studios, like to get, to get like the, you know, kind of the advance and all of that. You have to thread a very fine needle and it has to be a book that, you know, hits all these certain types of marks, which makes, you know, makes more sense for people to be self-publishing.

• 1:46:12Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:13Rich Roll?

  And I think it's interesting, you look at like David Goggins, I think he's the most successful self-published book of all time, like

• 1:46:19Steven Pressfield?

  Is that right?

• 1:46:19Rich Roll?

  Right up there with Michelle Obama, like, I don't know, he sold like four million copies of his first book or something like that. I mean, I don't think anybody prior to that has ever sold that many copies of a self-published book, which I think You know, all the rules around like the New York Times bestseller list and, you know, self-published books being in bookstores and all of that. I feel like, you know, his success upends or challenges a lot of those rules and probably opens the door for people like yourself and other people who are writing great books and doing it their way to, you know, have a different kind of life.

• 1:46:55Steven Pressfield?

  Maybe. I mean, I still, I still don't understand the economics of mainstream publishing, how they can make money, you know, unless they have one book.

• 1:47:05Rich Roll?

  I think it's like the one book that supports all the other books.

• 1:47:07Steven Pressfield?

  I think that's true, right? One book sells 10 million and then they can afford to have 1,500 books that sell nothing.

• 1:47:15Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:47:15Steven Pressfield?

  I guess.

• 1:47:16Rich Roll?

  It would be like the studio that puts out, you know, Avatar, the Marvel movies, also making like 300, you know, movies a year that cost a million dollars or that nobody goes and sees.

• 1:47:27Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:28Rich Roll?

  I guess.

• 1:47:29Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:29Rich Roll?

  I don't know. But you can just write your books and put them out, right? Which has to be cool.

• 1:47:35Steven Pressfield?

  But my expectations are so low. That's another part of it.

• 1:47:38Rich Roll?

  But here's the thing.

• 1:47:39Steven Pressfield?

  For how little, you know, that, really.

• 1:47:42Rich Roll?

  Stephen, listen, all this like, you know, part of me feels like you need to go to therapy because like if you're still having all this negative self-talk with all the wonderful books that you've put out and all the, you know, people that you've helped and, and, you know, creative careers that you've helped spawn, like, I want you to be telling yourself good things about your capability and your skill, right?

• 1:48:08Steven Pressfield?

  But, you know.

• 1:48:09Rich Roll?

  How much is resistance and how much is like just bullshit that you could purge from?

• 1:48:13Steven Pressfield?

  Sales figures, you know?

• 1:48:14Rich Roll?

  Well, I mean, you know, listen.

• 1:48:16Steven Pressfield?

  It's a tough racket.

• 1:48:17Rich Roll?

  Let me tell you this, you know, your, The War of Art and Turning Pro were so instrumental in my life that they are, that like, your work has, you know, infused my life and my work, like Finding Ultra is, is like, you're part of that book, right? And you're part of this podcast, like, in the collective consciousness idea that we were talking about earlier, like, your essence is intractable from like my career and my creative life and like the things that I've put out into the world. And I'm certainly not alone in that regard. There's lots of people who would, you know, tell you. Their version of what I just shared with you, which has to be incredibly, you know, affirming, right?

• 1:49:02Steven Pressfield?

  That's true.

• 1:49:03Rich Roll?

  You can hear that. And you can hear that and like, yeah, and so.

• 1:49:07Steven Pressfield?

  I don't blow that off. That's a big deal.

• 1:49:10Rich Roll?

  No, it's real and it's huge. And it's like a huge honor for me not to just have you here, but to like have you in my life. Like, that's something like, like talk about the mystery of the universe and like, like the idea that one day, like I would get to meet you and I would, I could consider you a friend. Like that was just beyond anything I could have ever imagined.

• 1:49:29Steven Pressfield?

  And I feel the same way. So, there you have it.

• 1:49:31Rich Roll?

  So, this is, this is, yeah. This is, you know, resistance, go fuck yourself. And, uh, um, you know, cause we're, we're, we're dancing with the mystical energies over here because it doesn't make sense on paper and all the decisions that I made, you know, when I was toiling away doing my version of, of you driving a truck, there's no sense when you're in that, it's, it's, there's no sense that that's leading anywhere.

• 1:49:56Steven Pressfield?

  Absolutely, yes.

• 1:49:58Rich Roll?

  Other than some kind of deep down thing like, I gotta keep doing this or, you know, I know that this is, this is somehow in some weird way gonna lead me to where I wanna go.

• 1:50:09Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:10Rich Roll?

  And you stay in it.

• 1:50:11Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah. I just did a blog post like today or something, or a couple of days ago that says something like, "The hero's journey is enacted in a benighted state." And I think that's absolutely true. And then somehow it's absolutely essential. It's like if you weren't in the United States, you wouldn't be on the hero's journey. It's somehow the, the fact that you, that we're in denial of some truth, that, and that's what set us on this hero's journey course, or this period in the wilderness course, is essential that we're in denial, so we can't see it. Right? We're, we're a fish in water and we just don't see it. It's like when you finally can see it, then you come out of it, you know? Or you, maybe you come out of it and then you can see it finally.

• 1:50:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:56Steven Pressfield?

  I don't know why that's true, but I think it is true.

• 1:50:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And, and, and in retrospect, looking back many years later, you're like, of course.

• 1:51:03Steven Pressfield?

  It's very clear.

• 1:51:04Rich Roll?

  Incredibly clear.

• 1:51:06Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:07Rich Roll?

  You know, why can't?

• 1:51:08Steven Pressfield?

  Couldn't be more clear.

• 1:51:09Rich Roll?

  Why can't that glance be clear, you know, looking forward? But, you know, it's not, it's not rigged, it's rigged against that. It's not wired that way, right?

• 1:51:17Rich Roll?

  Which sucks, but that's the way it is, right?

• 1:51:20Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah, for some, it seems to be a law of the universe. I don't know why.

• 1:51:23Rich Roll?

  I don't know, man. I don't know, man. Well, maybe, you know, we can round this out with just, you know, a few more laws of the universe for the person who is, you know, grappling with resistance, or perhaps finds finds themselves, you know, lost in the lost in the forest right now and can't see their way forward because they're not far enough down the way to have that 2020 rear view vision. So what do you think? Speak to the person who's who's out there like, I'm doing battle with resistance, but I can't see like this is, I need to quit.

• 1:51:57Steven Pressfield?

  You know what? I saw actually a great thing. I don't know if you've ever, do you ever see Anthony Hopkins when he's on Instagram? He has like-

• 1:52:05Rich Roll?

  I love him on Instagram.

• 1:52:06Steven Pressfield?

  He's great, isn't he? I mean, he's so authentic.

• 1:52:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:09Steven Pressfield?

  And this was a clip, I think he was on Tom's talk show or something like that. And they asked him this exact thing, you know, what, what, what's the word you, because he's the elder statesman of elder statesman.

• 1:52:20Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 1:52:21Steven Pressfield?

  And he said, you know, and I wish I could do the accent. He said, you know, just keep going, you know, just keep going, keep putting one foot in front of the other, because everything is going to work out in the end, you know? And I thought, and it was so authentic coming from him. I said, he's absolutely right. That's the, again, that's just like swimming in the ocean. You just got to keep going because the alternative is, you know, you drown. So that will be the truth. Just keep going. There's no, there's no, there's no plan B.

• 1:52:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah. All right, man. I love it. Well, always good to talk to you. I, you know, can't say enough-

• 1:52:58Steven Pressfield?

  Yeah, that's great.

• 1:52:59Rich Roll?

  -about how I appreciate you and the work that you do and the, you know, inspiration and that you share with the world. I think it's like, you know, it's a true act of service.

• 1:53:08Steven Pressfield?

  Well, thank you. And I'm so happy to hear that you've got something percolating that is causing you agitation at night. That's what the way it should be.

• 1:53:16Rich Roll?

  But I'm really divided on whether I can talk to you about it now.

• 1:53:21Rich Roll?

  I have to think about it.

• 1:53:23Steven Pressfield?

  I'm happy, in all seriousness, I'm happy to talk about it, but I don't need to talk about it. I don't need to hear it. It's not like I need to judge it.

• 1:53:30Rich Roll?

  I've already decided. I know what I'm willing to share with you. We'll do it.

• 1:53:33Steven Pressfield?

  Okay.

• 1:53:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Cool.

• 1:53:35Steven Pressfield?

  Great. Anytime. It's a deal.

• 1:53:37Rich Roll?

  All right, man. And you know, you probably have another book coming out in another month, right? So you can, you're always welcome here.

• 1:53:43Steven Pressfield?

  It'll be a while.

• 1:53:45Rich Roll?

  And let's have breakfast soon, too, please.

• 1:53:47Steven Pressfield?

  Okay, let's do it. But not at that place we went to the other day.

• 1:53:51Rich Roll?

  That derailed us.

• 1:53:52Steven Pressfield?

  We gotta find another place.

• 1:53:53Rich Roll?

  Thanks, buddy.

• 1:54:08Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as The Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and/or comment. Supporting

• 1:54:53Rich Roll?

  the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, The Meal Planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo, with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis, with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg. Graphic and social media assets courtesy of Daniel Solis, Dan Drake, and A.J. Akpodioti.

• 1:55:40Rich Roll?

  Thank you Georgia Whaley for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste.