HAUNTED: Surrey Ghost Car with And That's Why We Drink

Rasha and Yvette are joined by Em Schulz and Christine Schiefer from “And That’s Why We Drink” as they talk about a ghostly car crash in Surrey, England, back in 2002. They also discuss tales of paranormal hitchhikers, phantom passengers, and haunted roadways from all across the globe.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  When it comes to ghosts and hauntings, we've come across a lot of different theories on this show. One of my personal favorites is the idea that ghosts are residual energy trapped in space. Almost like how smoke will hover in a room with stagnant air, just waiting for an open window to escape.

• 0:23Speaker 00

  But until it does, it sort of lingers there, existing in this stasis. Like a snapshot of a moment that's already passed. Which got me wondering, is this what people are actually experiencing during a haunting? A push from a force they can't see? A shadow of a stranger sitting on a bed? The disembodied sound of laughter from another room? Is a haunting just a moment that happened once upon a time in that same space, replaying over and over again until it finds a way to escape? If you asked the people of Surrey, England back in 2002, they'd probably say we hit the nail on the head.

• 1:09Speaker 00

  Because that December, multiple people witnessed what was later referred to as a ghost crash on a local road. A maroon car swerving and losing control before driving into a ditch.

• 1:23Speaker 00

  Except when the police arrived, they found no sign of a collision from that day. They did, however, find evidence to suggest a maroon car had crashed there, claiming a life months before. I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is So Supernatural with a Twist. Because today, Rasha and Yvette have a very special Halloween surprise for you.

• 2:21Yvette Gentile?

  Welcome back, y'all. I'm Yvette Gentile.

• 2:25Speaker 02

  And I'm her sister, Rasha Pecoraro.

• 2:27Yvette Gentile?

  And today, you are getting double the trouble. As a spooky Halloween surprise, we have invited our friends, Em Schultz and Christine Schiefer from What? And That's Why We Drink.

• 2:44Yvette Gentile?

  Welcome, y'all.

• 2:45Speaker 02

  Thank you for having us.

• 2:47Speaker 03

  Thank you so much. And immediately, a shiver went down my spine. Your speaking voices on podcasts, they're so powerful. Oh, my gosh. As soon as you said, "Welcome," or whatever, I went, "Oh, my God." There are so much more questions.

• 3:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, when we started our podcast, people were like, "Em, your laughter sounds like a dolphin or Elmo." And we were like, "So, that's rude."

• 3:07Rasha Pecoraro?

  That's what's so funny, because we started in true crime with Root of Evil, and then Facing Evil, and now So Supernatural. So we've always been very, like, podcast voice. I'm like, "What do you mean you can't?" I'm like, "What do you mean you can't use sister voices giggling?"

• 3:20Speaker 02

  Sister voices.

• 3:21Speaker 03

  But well done. You immediately

• 3:23Rasha Pecoraro?

  We're hooked.

• 3:24Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 3:24Rasha Pecoraro?

  So honored you're both here. I'm already obsessed with you.

• 3:27Yvette Gentile?

  Same.

• 3:27Speaker 02

  Likewise.

• 3:28Rasha Pecoraro?

  Yay. Well, I think we have the perfect topic for all of us to talk about today and tell the So Supernatural listeners. Because, of course, I know we have all covered a lot of paranormal stories on both of our shows. And we thought today's case would be a great icebreaker for a discussion on a very niche corner of the haunting world. And that's ghost cars and passengers.

• 4:00Yvette Gentile?

  So do you guys have any stories of your own about this?

• 4:03Speaker 02

  I do.

• 4:04Rasha Pecoraro?

  Do tell.

• 4:05Speaker 02

  Yes, we do. Not on purpose, but I like to think I was named Christine after the haunted car. So I do sort of feel like a connection to that, even though my mom was really annoyed when she realized that that was like the connection. Oh, like the murder, the murder car, everybody said when I was born in the 90s.

• 4:22Rasha Pecoraro?

  I don't know the story of the murder car, Christine.

• 4:24Speaker 02

  Oh, it's a Stephen King novel called Christine, and it's this car that kills people. And my mom, being a German immigrant, was like, this is a nice name. And then like, apparently in the heyday of that book and the movie, and people were just like, oh, I get it. Like the, like the murder, murder car. And my mom was like, really not that. Can we not?

• 4:47Speaker 03

  I can't believe so many people had the bravery to just say that.

• 4:50Speaker 02

  I have no idea, but I take it as now like a badge of honor, but I don't think my mother really appreciates that. So that's kind of where I come from on this. But I do actually have a personal experience I'll share at some point about.

• 5:00Rasha Pecoraro?

  Okay.

• 5:01Speaker 02

  Like a ghost sleek car experience.

• 5:03Rasha Pecoraro?

  Oh, okay.

• 5:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:05Rasha Pecoraro?

  Do tease, do tease. Well, it sounds like we have a lot to talk about today. So let's just kick things off with one spine tingling story that I just cannot get out of my head. And that is the case of the Surrey ghost car.

• 5:30Rasha Pecoraro?

  Picture this. It's a cold December night, a little after 7:00 PM. So the sun's already set. You're driving southbound on a six lane highway coming home from work. You live in a little English town in the county of Surrey, about 50 minutes south of London. There's nothing but cars and trees on either side of you, but you can see an off ramp ahead. So you put on your turn signal and start to merge. When suddenly you hear tires screech right next to you. Out of nowhere, this small maroon car just zips right by you, just barely missing your passenger side mirror. It veers off the road, disappearing into a ditch.

• 6:17Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah, yeah. You slam your foot on the brakes in time to hear a brutal crash.

• 6:24Speaker 02

  Oh, God.

• 6:25Yvette Gentile?

  You can't see the car anymore, but its taillights cast an eerie haze in the dark, cold fog. Meanwhile, of course, your heart is literally pounding out of your chest. And that's when you call the police.

• 6:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, that is. I'm glad that you walked me through all the steps because I'm like, that, I think is that's exactly what I would do. Except I'd also be crying and maybe calling my mom too.

• 6:48Yvette Gentile?

  100%.

• 6:51Speaker 02

  Although our mom has passed away, so I'd be calling Yvette. Oh, no. I can still call her ghost, though. Yeah. You can call my mom.

• 6:57Yvette Gentile?

  I would still be dialing mom's number. Help me. Yvette would be calling mom for sure.

• 7:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, but that, okay, I like, that's terrifying. I know we're talking about ghostly stuff, so. But my thought is always like, if you see that or experience that and hear it and see it like, that's so traumatizing. And then it being a, you know, paranormal event, not to spoil anything, but like, that sucks then, because then afterward you feel like, oh, well, now it looks like, it was just a ghost. And everyone's like, oh, it was just a ghost. But like, you witnessed a car crash, like a really traumatic one. A really bad one. Like, you, I would be assuming, oh, I just watched someone not be here anymore.

• 7:34Yvette Gentile?

  Let's get back into the story because this isn't just some role playing exercise. This actually happened on Wednesday, December 11th, 2002, in that English county of Surrey. Local police received not just one, but several calls about a maroon car that ran off the road on the A3 highway. And first responders arrived on the scene at around 7:20 PM. And a few witnesses supposedly, they had hung around and pointed out to where the car had slid into the ditch. But when the patrol officers went to the edge of the road, guess what? They saw nothing.

• 8:16Yvette Gentile?

  They saw no car, no taillights, not even a skid mark on the highway or a broken twig to mark the spot where it had plunged over the side. Like what? Right, right?

• 8:29Speaker 03

  Really, if I were one of the cops, I'd be like, you put, sent us to the wrong spot.

• 8:32Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 8:32Speaker 03

  Where the actual car.

• 8:33Speaker 02

  I would be like, as one of the witnesses, like, stop gaslighting me, world. I don't know, like, I just saw that, I swear.

• 8:40Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah, exactly. So the police probably thought, okay, it's dark, maybe we just missed something. So they decided to do another search in the daylight that following morning. And that's when about 20 yards away from where they started their search, they saw a little bit of painted metal poking through the bushes. They pulled back the branches and that's when they found a maroon Vaxal Astra, which is a pretty standard compact car buried beneath layers of underbrush. But it's the car's condition that got the police's attention. Right away, it was clear this car hadn't swerved off the road the night before, like many of the callers reported seeing.

• 9:25Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 9:26Yvette Gentile?

  No, this had been there for a long time, y'all. I'm talking months at least.

• 9:35Speaker 03

  Oh, no, thank you.

• 9:37Yvette Gentile?

  And they could tell because the Astra was now rusty and covered in plants. And not like the plants had fallen on top of the car. These plants had literally grown over the car. The key seemed to still be in the ignition.

• 9:55Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 9:55Yvette Gentile?

  Because when the officers tried to turn the car on, the battery was dead.

• 10:01Speaker 02

  Oh, boy.

• 10:01Yvette Gentile?

  But the windshield was intact, but it had a giant spider web crack from the impact.

• 10:08Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 10:09Yvette Gentile?

  And get this, get this? The driver's side door was caved in and jammed shut. But the passenger door was open, suggesting the driver might have crawled out after the crash.

• 10:23Speaker 02

  This is so disturbing.

• 10:25Yvette Gentile?

  I know, right? A few feet away, halfway up the embankment, is where the police found the body of the driver.

• 10:34Speaker 03

  Oh, no. And was this body?

• 10:36Yvette Gentile?

  The body was skeletonized. It had been out there so long.

• 10:41Speaker 03

  Oh. No. No.

• 10:44Rasha Pecoraro?

  So it's skeletonized. That means it's like really decomposed.

• 10:46Speaker 03

  Like really bad.

• 10:47Rasha Pecoraro?

  Yeah.

• 10:47Speaker 03

  Yeah. As if a car is rusting. I mean, it's the same degree.

• 10:51Rasha Pecoraro?

  Right.

• 10:51Yvette Gentile?

  And if weeds are growing up through the car, it has been out there possibly months.

• 10:58Speaker 03

  This is so creepy.

• 11:00Yvette Gentile?

  I know. And you've never heard of this before, right? You guys don't know about it, okay?

• 11:04Speaker 03

  No.

• 11:05Yvette Gentile?

  Not like the Christine murder car.

• 11:06Speaker 03

  I mean, listen, I've heard all about that.

• 11:08Yvette Gentile?

  That's your name after.

• 11:08Rasha Pecoraro?

  Right.

• 11:10Speaker 03

  One of my best friends grew up in Surrey and I'm pretty offended. I've never been told this. I'm pretty offended on your behalf. Like, what the heck? We've had enough sleepovers. They had prime time to tell me a scary story from their hometown.

• 11:24Rasha Pecoraro?

  Well, the police end up running the plates through vehicle registration and they learn the car belongs to a 21-year-old named Christopher Chandler. Chandler apparently was already in the police database for being a suspect in a robbery.

• 11:41Rasha Pecoraro?

  But that's not all. He was last seen drinking with a friend in West London in July of 2002. And we have to remember, everyone saw this car and they found this car, the decomposed body, skeleton, all the things, in December of 2002.

• 12:00Rasha Pecoraro?

  So when Christopher's brother hadn't heard from him, he reported his brother missing at that time in July. At the time, the police suspected he may have skipped town, maybe to escape prosecution for the burglary. But now they knew that wasn't the case. Christopher had clearly died in a car accident months ago. And of course, the police, their next step was to check Christopher's phone records to see if there was a way to tell exactly when the accident happened. Now, even though it was, you know, kind of archaic, all the way back in 2002, even though I can't believe that was over 20 years ago. As they say that.

• 12:44Rasha Pecoraro?

  Cell phones did exist, they were around.

• 12:46Speaker 03

  Horror story on its own.

• 12:47Rasha Pecoraro?

  Well, we do have record that he did make a single call that night and it was to his brother on July 16th of 2002. The call lasted only a second and his brother never even knew that he made the call.

• 13:02Speaker 03

  Ooh, that's trauma all by itself.

• 13:04Rasha Pecoraro?

  So you have to wonder, would anyone have even found Christopher if all those people hadn't reported seeing his exact car, that maroon car, skid off the road months after the accident happened? Had the universe somehow reenacted the accident?

• 13:23Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 13:24Rasha Pecoraro?

  I believe the universe would do something like that.

• 13:26Yvette Gentile?

  I do too.

• 13:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I wonder if was it the anniversary of or something? Like, why is it happening on that day?

• 13:33Rasha Pecoraro?

  Right, I mean, I mean, they don't know exactly, but they knew that he made that last call in July, that's all they have, right?

• 13:40Yvette Gentile?

  And you have that energy that is lingering, right? Of that pain of him trying to reach out for his brother.

• 13:46Rasha Pecoraro?

  And I should also mention, there hadn't been any other sightings of the phantom car before or after December 11th.

• 13:55Yvette Gentile?

  Just that once?

• 13:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, oh my gosh, so, okay, that feels like it was an anniversary or someone on the road had some sort of ability.

• 14:03Rasha Pecoraro?

  Something important, yeah. I even have like, we call it chicken skin in Hawaii, but I have goosebumps all over my face, even though I know this story, it's still, it's chilling to me.

• 14:12Yvette Gentile?

  Very chilling, yeah.

• 14:13Rasha Pecoraro?

  So, what do we think? Was it a cry for help? Was he trying to be found, like you're saying, Em? Like, was it the anniversary of the crash? Or, I'm curious to know what you think.

• 14:24Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 14:25Speaker 02

  I mean, I think he was trying to get somebody to find him and like, close that chapter somehow, or just like, answer a question that for some reason needed to be answered. And it makes you wonder like, the timing of it, but it's like, maybe, yeah, like Emma said, like, maybe somebody on the road that day was the one who needed to, I mean, I think there's probably something above my pay grade.

• 14:48Speaker 02

  Quantum physics, why the heck it happened on a certain day? I don't know, that's just like, so, because I was gonna say, well, maybe it happened all The time and this is just the time that like enough people called.

• 14:57Speaker 03

  Or yeah, for all we know, maybe like, maybe his brother had just driven on the road or something and it kind of tapped into something. I don't know.

• 15:05Yvette Gentile?

  That's a good one. Yeah.

• 15:07Speaker 03

  Or someone that would have cared about him was nearby and he felt like this is the moment.

• 15:12Yvette Gentile?

  That's, that is, that, I love that you said that because that is always my thought process is why these given people at that given time, right? Are they just themselves very intuitive human beings where they're put in that exact moment? And they can sense it and why someone else, you know, didn't at all, right?

• 15:33Speaker 02

  Right.

• 15:34Yvette Gentile?

  The questions that I have.

• 15:40Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Ashley Flowers.

• 15:41Speaker 05

  And I'm Britt. And if you're on the edge of your seat, listening to this show, Crime Junkie needs to be your next listen.

• 15:47Speaker 00

  Every Monday, I dive into a new true crime case that our reporting team has been on the ground looking into, from lesser known disappearances to the most chilling cases hitting the headlines. And I'm going to walk you through it the way I tell my best friend, because that's what I'm doing.

• 16:03Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's me. And I'm right there with you as we listen together, react to every wild detail. And of course, I ask all the questions.

• 16:11Speaker 00

  And I'm going to have the answers because we have case files. We're talking to detectives and family members and we're going to stay focused on the facts.

• 16:18Speaker 05

  So if you're not already listening to Crime Junkie, what are you waiting for? There are over 300 episodes available right now.

• 16:24Speaker 00

  And you can listen to new episodes of Crime Junkie every Monday, wherever you get your podcasts.

• 16:34Rasha Pecoraro?

  Christine, I need to hear your story that you teased a little bit at the top of the episode.

• 16:39Speaker 02

  I'm so glad you asked because it's something I've never talked about and it's not because it wasn't. Something I wanted to talk about, it just was never relevant. And then I heard ghost cars and ghost passengers and I went, oh, okay. Like, I've got a story for you. Finally, I get somebody to tell. It's not even like, super interesting. It's really short story, but I was driving to school one day in high school and I like, I just suddenly was pulling up to this light. I drove this path every day through Cincinnati and I pulled up to this light and there was this police car to the right. And for some reason, I just felt this dread, like, don't pull up all the way to the window. Like, just, I mean, you know, and it was a police car, but I was also 15. So what did I know? Yeah.

• 17:24Speaker 02

  Don't do anything wrong. Yeah. Don't look. Right. Don't look at me. My registration sticker might be expired. I don't know. But it wasn't really that. It was just, I had this like, weird ominous, like chilling feeling. And as we started, as the light turned green, I was like, waiting for him to go and he wouldn't go. And I was like, okay. So I was like, well, I have to go. So I start driving. And as I'm trying to drive fast, I of course, look over and I can see his face is just like, trained on me. And like, he's already waiting for me to drive by. And he has this huge smile on his face, but he has no nose. Oh. Like, it's just skin. Hello? Are you, what?

• 18:05Speaker 02

  His nose is like, not there. His eyes are like, too far apart. There's like, this giant smile. And he looks right at me and my whole, I mean, I still remember to this day, I'm like sweating. My whole, like, stomach bottomed out and I was like, petrified. I mean, petrified. Like, that's not a human. My brain went, I knew it. Like, I knew I wasn't supposed to look in that car. And, oh my God, I drove past and I was like, oh, I should look at the license, of course. And then I'm like, kind of looking and of course, he's gone. The car's gone. I don't know. I mean, he might have turned away. I don't know. But like, I was thankful he was gone. So I was like, don't follow me, please. Yeah. 10 years of friendship. Not once. You decided not to tell M. Excuse me? You know, your friend from Surrey and I have been waiting to tell you.

• 18:51Yvette Gentile?

  Oh, touche.

• 18:54Speaker 02

  I think I was just in a place where I was 15 and I told my mom and she's like, "Okay, like, he probably just like, looked at you funny and like..."

• 19:00Rasha Pecoraro?

  Did your mom brush it off?

• 19:01Speaker 02

  Yes, completely. And like, so I just kind of brushed it aside and I thought like, "Maybe I exaggerated it in my mind, I don't know." But there was something about where there was no, no, I mean, it was like, okay. And when I was a kid, I had this horrible nightmare that my, I was in my mom's bed and she turned around and she had no face, like it was just all skin over her.

• 19:19Rasha Pecoraro?

  What's going on?

• 19:20Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 19:21Rasha Pecoraro?

  Em is freaking out over here.

• 19:23Speaker 02

  Em's like, "I just woke up, why are you doing this?" It's always reminded me of that event because it had a very similar, like, you know, a safe person, like a parent or like a police officer. And it just was one of those moments where I went like, "Hmm, that's bad and I don't want to think about it anymore." So that was my ghost car experience or alien, I don't know what the heck it was.

• 19:44Rasha Pecoraro?

  Remember at the top of this when you were like, "It's not even like that big of a story."

• 19:47Speaker 02

  Well, it doesn't feel like it in my head, but it really sounds creepy right now. It sounds when I say it out loud.

• 19:53Rasha Pecoraro?

  Oh my goodness.

• 19:54Yvette Gentile?

  Jeez. Oh my goodness. Well, I don't even know how to top that story, but I do have another one that I found. Okay, it's not about a ghostly car, but an entire ghost train.

• 20:07Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 20:08Yvette Gentile?

  It's around 2:30 a.m. on August 27th, 1891. That morning, a seven-car train leaves the station in Statesville, North Carolina, with more than 50 people on board. It's pitch dark out, so the train's engineer is a guy named William West, and he can barely see the track in front of him. But just five minutes after leaving the station at 2:35 a.m., he feels this jolt. Then he hears this horrible screech.

• 20:42Rasha Pecoraro?

  Like steel is being ripped in two. The entire train leaps off the tracks just as it's crossing over the Boston Bridge. All six cars and the engine fall 60 feet before hitting the creek below. Yeah, and 22 people died that night. But miraculously, nearly three dozen people survived. And those who were able to walked three miles back to town to get help.

• 21:17Speaker 03

  Ow, oh my god.

• 21:18Rasha Pecoraro?

  I mean, that is devastating.

• 21:20Speaker 03

  Oh, my gosh.

• 21:21Rasha Pecoraro?

  But there's more. So the Boston crash became one of North Carolina's most infamous train wrecks, as you can imagine. But it didn't become legendary until the year 1941. And here's why. 50 years to the day on the anniversary of the tragedy of that train wreck. Two travelers named Pat and Larry Hayes are driving with their kids to a vacation somewhere in the mountains. It's right after midnight and their kids are fast asleep in the backseat.

• 21:54Speaker 02

  That's the first mistake. All of that is the first mistake. Nothing good can come of this.

• 21:58Rasha Pecoraro?

  They're on Buffalo Shoals Road, which runs parallel to the railway line. When suddenly Larry hears a big pop and he feels the car shake. It's a flat tire, so he pulls over to the side of the road where there's a clear view of the Boston Bridge. Careful not to wake the kids, of course, Larry hurries off on foot back to Statesville to get some help. Since we're assuming he doesn't have a spare tire.

• 22:26Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 22:27Rasha Pecoraro?

  And meanwhile, Pat waits patiently with the kids back in the car. You know, she glances up occasionally at the darkened bridge several hundred feet away. And around 2:35 a.m., she sees a train speeding across the bridge.

• 22:44Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 22:45Rasha Pecoraro?

  Yeah, at first, of course, she thinks nothing of it. I mean, there are train tracks right there, right? Until she hears a terrible screeching sound and sees the train launch itself over the tracks. Then she hears the agonizing screams of the victims.

• 23:01Speaker 03

  My God.

• 23:02Rasha Pecoraro?

  Pat leaps out of the car to get a better look, and she sees the crashed locomotive, the actual train, in the creek below her.

• 23:11Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 23:11Rasha Pecoraro?

  Just as she's about to freak out, a car pulls up and her husband Larry jumps out, you know, with someone to help him fix the tire. Pat grabs Larry and just points to the creek. She doesn't even say anything. But now the train is gone.

• 23:28Speaker 02

  It's the gaslighting. I mean, come on.

• 23:30Rasha Pecoraro?

  Total gaslighting.

• 23:31Speaker 03

  So toxic.

• 23:32Speaker 02

  Someone else has to confirm this. The kids are asleep, like.

• 23:37Rasha Pecoraro?

  I know.

• 23:38Speaker 02

  I know.

• 23:38Rasha Pecoraro?

  It's just her. She's the only one.

• 23:40Speaker 03

  You don't even have the kids to fall back on here.

• 23:42Rasha Pecoraro?

  Oh, yeah.

• 23:43Speaker 03

  Like, we need the two witnesses, right?

• 23:44Rasha Pecoraro?

  No witnesses. Well, there's no wreckage, there's no screams, and just the sound of crickets and the peaceful trickle of the creek. Pat cannot explain what she's just seen. And since she's not from the area, she's never even heard of the Boston train crash, and neither has Larry. It isn't until later, when she speaks to someone at a local train station, that she learns about the actual tragedy. Now, discuss.

• 24:14Speaker 02

  Imagine that moment where they're like, and it's the 50-year anniversary, and she's like, well, well, well.

• 24:20Speaker 03

  I have a therapist named Jordan, and Jordan would immediately be getting a phone call. And I would make this whole event my entire personality. If I was a whole train crash. I mean, I would at least be up until 3:00 in the morning Googling, like, has anyone else experienced this? Like, I would be deranged for at least 24 hours. I would, yeah.

• 24:40Rasha Pecoraro?

  Well, I went on a deep dive into this story, and as a matter of fact, when that happens, you know, when her husband and the guy show up, and they don't, there's nothing there, she faints. She passes out.

• 24:51Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 24:52Rasha Pecoraro?

  Like, in trauma, her body just breaks down.

• 24:55Speaker 02

  Shut down.

• 24:56Rasha Pecoraro?

  You know, which rightfully so. I think I would be the same, like, oh!

• 25:00Speaker 02

  Well, and also, I feel like your brain in these scenarios, like especially when you see something paranormal or something, just even plain old traumatic, like it tries to write a narrative that makes sense. And I feel like in this case, it was sort of like, just unplug me, plug me back in. Like, I'm just gonna faint and like, start over, you know? But it's like, I'm sure if we like, do a quick reset, but like, I would just feel so bit, like resentful that like, I swear I saw this and I'm deeply traumatized. I heard people screaming in agony and now everyone's like, there's nothing there.

• 25:30Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah. I mean, I would be the same as you, Em. Like, I would, this would stay with me for the rest of my life, right?

• 25:36Speaker 03

  Everyone would know.

• 25:37Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 25:38Speaker 03

  And also, like, can you imagine, what year was this? Did they have phones then?

• 25:42Speaker 02

  1941.

• 25:43Speaker 03

  Oh, no. Well, because my, my next thought was like, imagine knowing that you've got these kids in the car, so you can't leave them, but like, moral thinking of like, do I run and save people and leave my kids behind? Do I have to stay with my kids and just watch these people die and I could save? I mean, it would be such a, I would never recover. So.

• 25:59Speaker 02

  Same. Yeah. I think we'd all faint, probably.

• 26:02Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah, it would be like, just fade to black.

• 26:05Speaker 03

  Just to check out of the situation.

• 26:06Speaker 02

  Just become unconscious.

• 26:07Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah. Okay, well, after that, the Bostian Bridge becomes the stuff, obviously, of ghostly legends. Some people say that each year on August 27th, at 2:35 a.m., you can catch a glimpse of the train plunging to its demise. Although some people took that story a little too seriously, and they paid a deadly price. Listen to this. In 2010, on the 119th anniversary of the crash, a 29-year-old paranormal investigator named Charles Kaiser and two of his colleagues decided to investigate the Phantom Train. They walked onto the bridge

• 26:51Yvette Gentile?

  on the evening of August 26 and waited for the signs of the apparition. And at some point during the night, they finally heard it, the roar of the locomotive. The ghost hunters peered anxiously down the tracks, but unfortunately, the train they saw...

• 27:12Yvette Gentile?

  Wasn't a specter.

• 27:14Speaker 03

  Oh, it was a real train?

• 27:15Yvette Gentile?

  It was a real train. Kaiser pushed one of his friends out of the way, but he wasn't fast enough to dodge the train himself. And he was struck and killed instantly.

• 27:28Speaker 03

  Oh, my Lord.

• 27:30Yvette Gentile?

  I mean, that is a horrific way to go. Uh, you know, it's like. Story?

• 27:34Speaker 02

  I don't know this story. Do you, Em?

• 27:36Speaker 03

  No, no, no. Oh, my gosh.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  I feel like with paranormal investigating, you think like, oh, it's like a harmless hobby and then, you know.

• 27:44Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 27:45Speaker 02

  Even going into like abandoned buildings and you think like, ooh, spooky. But it's like, they're actually like real life dangers too. I mean.

• 27:51Speaker 03

  Tell Christine about Bobby Mackey's.

• 27:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, but right.

• 27:53Yvette Gentile?

  Right, right.

• 27:54Speaker 02

  We went to Bobby Mackey's and while we were there, uh, well, on our way there, the, the person we were gonna do, we're doing an overnight ghost hunt. And we got a call from our contact. She said, um, actually, can you guys just hold off for like another 30 minutes? Um, the police are here because someone broke in and we can't find them. And we were like, hey, I don't think so. And we finally got there and they're like, well, we couldn't find him anywhere. So anyway, have a good lockdown.

• 28:18Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 28:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, we were like for the rest of the night, we'd be like, oh, my God, a ghost. And then we were like, or worse, could it be the intruder? Like, which is worse, you know? I mean, anyway, so there, there are, I guess, real dangers. Um, and trains are one of those things I feel like that get, it's like underrated how dangerous these things are, especially like if you're not used to being around train tracks. Um, yeah, that's just, that's just horrible.

• 28:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, I feel like I would have at least checked before ghost hunting if it was an active railway. I feel like.

• 28:43Yvette Gentile?

  Right?

• 28:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:44Speaker 03

  I'm surprised like no one thought, oh, other trains come here too, besides the ghost one, you know?

• 28:49Yvette Gentile?

  Right, yeah.

• 28:50Speaker 03

  Um, yeah, when I started ghost hunting back in 2011 or 2012.

• 28:55Yvette Gentile?

  So when you were 10, okay.

• 28:58Speaker 03

  I was in college, I was in college. And, um, I, but thank you so much, Mike.

• 29:03Yvette Gentile?

  I mean, you look amazing.

• 29:05Speaker 03

  Thank you. I've been ghost hunting since then. And one of my first times that I was ghost hunting, I was also giving a tour at the same location. And usually the town knew what we were doing and they were supposed to. But I guess the park ranger on site wasn't aware of what was going on. And, uh, called the police and ended up detaining me in front of my entire. Tour group. It was embarrassing. So embarrassing.

• 29:27Speaker 02

  Embarrassing or just like super cool?

• 29:30Speaker 03

  In hindsight, since nothing happened, super cool. But in the moment, I was like, why am I in a cop car right now? For ghost hunting and I, we have every right to be here.

• 29:40Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 29:41Speaker 03

  Yeah. Not only could it be dangerous, you might just run into like some dumb people. So look out, you know, you might get detained. I don't know.

• 29:47Speaker 02

  At least your cop had a face.

• 29:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 29:53Speaker 02

  Perhaps he did not. I'm not sure.

• 29:55Speaker 03

  He had his nose and eyes. Yeah.

• 29:56Speaker 02

  That's good. That's a good start. That's a good start.

• 29:59Rasha Pecoraro?

  I do have a question for you, though. I'm circling back to ghost hunting since 2011. So messing with the supernatural, obviously, like that can be a scary thing. Like it can be deadly and at times were you always drawn to it? Do you do any like ritual before?

• 30:15Speaker 02

  Protection of any kind?

• 30:16Rasha Pecoraro?

  Protection? Are you just like all the way in?

• 30:18Speaker 03

  I've been into it. I've wanted to be a ghost hunter since I was seven when I saw my first ghost. Which was my, my grandpa. As for rituals, I don't know. I always kind of had some like, um, blind confidence that I'd be fine because my, my stepmom is a second generation witch. She's been practicing her whole life. And so in my mind, if I, if something ever happened, I would just call her and it would just get handled. I don't know how true or safe that is.

• 30:41Speaker 02

  Hey, I need her phone number too.

• 30:42Speaker 03

  She's got me.

• 30:43Speaker 02

  I like, I'm like, I have a lot of people on your roster, your Rolodex. I need to be called.

• 30:50Speaker 03

  Just called my step grandparents who taught her. Yeah. So I've, it's, it's very nice to have her on call if I need something, but usually this is probably very irresponsible if you're talking to someone who practices much more than I do. But my only ritual, which Christine likes to poke fun at sometimes is that as I'm leaving any haunted place, I just say goodbye, like a bajillion times. I just go, goodbye, goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. You can't come home.

• 31:14Rasha Pecoraro?

  Please don't follow me.

• 31:15Speaker 03

  Yeah. I just kind of, I'm just so clear and like, do not follow me home. And so far it has worked. Knock on everything, but.

• 31:21Rasha Pecoraro?

  Yeah. Manifestation, my friend.

• 31:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:24Speaker 02

  You just set a boundary, you know?

• 31:25Rasha Pecoraro?

  Yeah.

• 31:26Speaker 02

  You know?

• 31:26Rasha Pecoraro?

  Right. Right. You set your own clear boundary. Yeah.

• 31:31Rasha Pecoraro?

  Well, there is no question that hunting the supernatural comes with risks. The reason I asked you that question, Emma, is because the way Yvette and I were raised in Hawaii, like, we were always taught 100% to respect the supernatural, especially by our moms, so we always asked for protection.

• 31:50Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 31:51Rasha Pecoraro?

  You know, like, yeah, or do a almighty prayer or something, something.

• 31:55Speaker 03

  Christina and I, we've only ever been like, super respectful, and we're just like, I'm not about that. And especially if I don't want you to follow me home, why would I give you a reason?

• 32:03Speaker 02

  Right. So, you know. Yeah, let's all be cool and chill, you know? Like, why would I scream at you and punch the wall of your own house?

• 32:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:09Speaker 02

  You know, just because you're dead? That feels like unfair, but, um...

• 32:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:12Rasha Pecoraro?

  We couldn't agree with you more.

• 32:13Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah, for us, it's like, you just, you don't play around with stuff like that. You know?

• 32:18Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 32:19Yvette Gentile?

  You do it in the most respectful way possible.

• 32:20Speaker 02

  Right.

• 32:21Speaker 03

  100%.

• 32:22Yvette Gentile?

  Same with us, yeah.

• 32:23Rasha Pecoraro?

  And we have to say, too, sometimes it's hard to exactly say what's doing the haunting, what type of entity you are coming across.

• 32:31Speaker 02

  Mmm.

• 32:32Rasha Pecoraro?

  Are we the ones searching for answers, or is the supernatural searching for us?

• 32:45Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Ashley Flowers.

• 32:47Speaker 05

  And I'm Britt. And if you're on the edge of your seat, listening to this show, Crime Junkie needs to be your next listen.

• 32:53Speaker 00

  Every Monday, I dive into a new true crime case that our reporting team has been on the ground looking into. From lesser-known disappearances to the most chilling cases hitting the headlines, and I'm gonna walk you through it the way I tell my best friend, because, well, that's what I'm doing.

• 33:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's me. And I'm right there with you as we listen together, react to every wild detail, and of course, I ask all the questions.

• 33:16Speaker 00

  And I'm gonna have the answers, because we have case files, we're talking to detectives and family members, and we're gonna stay focused on the facts.

• 33:23Speaker 05

  So if you're not already listening to Crime Junkie, what are you waiting for? There are over 300 episodes available right now.

• 33:30Speaker 00

  And you can listen to new episodes of Crime Junkie every Monday, wherever you get your podcasts.

• 33:40Yvette Gentile?

  All right, well, we're joined today by M. Schultz and Christine Schiefer from And That's Why We Drink. And so far, you have heard a couple of really cool stories about phantom vehicles that seem to replay their final moments. But I want to branch out from there because it's not just the cars and the trains that appear to be haunted or cursed. It seems like it's the people who died in them, right? These apparitions that keep showing up long after the events have passed.

• 34:15Speaker 02

  Right.

• 34:16Yvette Gentile?

  Meaning, maybe it's more about the passengers and their tragic deaths, right? That this keeps occurring.

• 34:24Speaker 02

  I mean, that makes sense, especially with the like very dramatic ones, you know, that are actually historically like accurate. I feel like that's a good evidence.

• 34:32Rasha Pecoraro?

  Well, I have one that I believe is historically accurate.

• 34:35Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 34:37Rasha Pecoraro?

  So this particular story comes from Japan. But before we get there, I think it's important to have a little bit of cultural context for this one.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 34:50Rasha Pecoraro?

  "Sukoshi Nihongo Desuka." I only speak a little Japanese. But I will say, even though we only speak a little bit, my sister and I understand the Japanese culture. It's very prevalent in Hawaii.

• 35:02Speaker 02

  Cool.

• 35:03Rasha Pecoraro?

  I'm way into this one. So in Japan, the oldest indigenous religion is called Shinto, which translates in English to "The Way of the Gods." Now, there's a belief in Shintoism that when you die, your soul travels to the underworld, which is a mythical place called Yomi no Kuni. However, it's said that some people get stuck on their way there and forever remain trapped on our earthly plane. So those are usually people who have died violently, unnaturally, or left unresolved business behind on Earth.

• 35:44Yvette Gentile?

  Souls that either can't move on or won't. When that happens, they become a very specific kind of Japanese spirit called a yudei. These angry spirits can still interact with our world and often take revenge upon the living.

• 36:02Speaker 02

  Oh, boy.

• 36:03Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah, they can cause accidents, disease, madness, even death. So let's just say it's bad luck to meet one.

• 36:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'll say.

• 36:15Yvette Gentile?

  Typically, they like to haunt cemeteries or places that they died. But sometimes they get lost, like literally lost. In fact, a lot of these strange travelers were seen after the Tohoku earthquake in 2011, one of the worst natural disasters in Japanese history.

• 36:33Speaker 02

  Oh, boy, lost spirits. Oh, boy. Okay, that's just tragic, scary answer all at once.

• 36:40Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah, and we actually had family members that lived in Japan during this time. So we were, yeah, watching the news and, you know, calling relatives nonstop. It was a 9.0 magnitude quake.

• 36:54Speaker 02

  I can't even, I can't even process that.

• 36:56Yvette Gentile?

  Can't comprehend. Yeah, yeah. And it happened on March 11th at 2:46 PM. It created a massive 33-foot tsunami which slammed into the eastern shore of Japan, affecting hundreds of miles of coastline. And in some places, the tidal wave reached six miles inland. I mean, that is crazy, right?

• 37:23Speaker 02

  Again, can't comprehend, yeah.

• 37:25Yvette Gentile?

  It killed almost 20,000 people, destroyed thousands of homes, and triggered a partial meltdown at the Fukushima nuclear power plant. So when I say disaster, that is a understatement. And in the aftermath of this horrible, horrible tragedy, people struggled to rebuild. You've got to think about it. Many people lost their homes, they lost their jobs, and most importantly, they lost their loved ones. The thing is, some of those family members were said to make a shocking reappearance time and time again.

• 38:03Rasha Pecoraro?

  Journalist Richard Lloyd Perry documented some of these reappearance in his book called Ghosts of the Tsunami. Many of these stories were reported to him by a priest named Reverend Kaneda. Kaneda lived and worked at a Zen Buddhist temple in Kurihata, and that is in the northeastern part of the country. He and a group of priests traveled the coast after the tsunami, you know, to comfort survivors. So as people described their terror and their grief, they also reported supernatural run-ins with the souls of those lost in the waves. And he found an overwhelming amount of anecdotal evidence.

• 38:44Speaker 03

  Oh, boy.

• 38:45Rasha Pecoraro?

  For example, a cab driver in Sendai, a city north of Fukushima, said he picked up a man one day not long after the tsunami. The man gave the taxi driver an address near the coast. But about halfway through the drive, the cabbie glanced at his rearview mirror and noticed the passenger. He gone.

• 39:07Speaker 03

  Really?

• 39:08Rasha Pecoraro?

  He was gone.

• 39:09Speaker 03

  Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

• 39:10Rasha Pecoraro?

  He had literally vanished mid-drive, even though they'd never stopped. So, of course, the cab driver was morbidly curious, so he kept going to the address that the man originally gave him.

• 39:23Speaker 03

  Oh, interesting. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

• 39:26Rasha Pecoraro?

  Guess where he pulled up?

• 39:27Speaker 03

  Where?

• 39:28Rasha Pecoraro?

  He pulled up to a house that was completely leveled by the tsunami and left in ruins.

• 39:35Speaker 03

  Oh, my God, he just wanted to go home. Oh, my God.

• 39:37Rasha Pecoraro?

  He just wanted to go home.

• 39:38Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 39:39Rasha Pecoraro?

  Five years after the disaster, a 22-year-old sociology student named Yuka Kudo heard rumors about these phantom passengers and decided to make it the subject of her senior thesis project. Yuka went out on the streets to interview about 100 taxi drivers or so. She went all over Ishinomaki, a coastal city about five hours north of Tokyo. Every time, she asked the same question. Did you have any unusual experiences after the tsunami?

• 40:13Rasha Pecoraro?

  Out of the hundred taxi cab drivers, seven of them had supernatural stories to share. One driver in his 50s said a woman got into his car near the train station and asked to be taken to an area he absolutely knew was decimated by the flood. When he told her that, she asked in a trembling voice, quote, "Am I dead?"

• 40:40Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 40:41Rasha Pecoraro?

  He turned around to get a better look at her, but the woman had simply vanished.

• 40:48Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 40:51Rasha Pecoraro?

  I know. I wish you all could see him right now. I know, I know.

• 40:55Speaker 02

  It's a delightful vision. Eyes closed, hand above their head, like, what is happening right now? About to faint, like that lady at the roadside.

• 41:05Speaker 03

  Oh, my God. That's I was. And also, even if she was alive and asked that question, I mean, with enough tragedy going on, you I would imagine there's some like freak out. There's there's no right word for this, like a mob, mob mentality of like, where do I stand? What do I like? I could I could see people.

• 41:21Speaker 02

  Like, your whole life's been shattered, right?

• 41:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. I just I my my hope for that is like, hopefully that when she had that realization, like, am I dead? That it maybe she was able to.

• 41:34Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? Like, she was like, great. And it like, almost brought her to the I mean, that's my hope. I don't know.

• 41:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, great point.

• 41:39Speaker 02

  That's how I ever the optimist I am.

• 41:42Rasha Pecoraro?

  That's so much.

• 41:45Rasha Pecoraro?

  The other six drivers had similar stories about picking up clients who disappeared mid route. It seemed like these ghosts, you know, Christine, like you were saying, they were trying to find their way home, you know, even though their home didn't exist anymore and maybe find peace and move on, right?

• 42:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. You know, that's really interesting because I feel like so many different cultures have a similar understanding of tragic incidents resulting in ghosts. I mean, you even go to like, M's part of the M's hometown area, like that colonial, I don't know, what's, what's over

• 42:18Rasha Pecoraro?

  Where are you from, M?

• 42:19Speaker 03

  Oh, I'm from, I'm from Virginia.

• 42:21Speaker 02

  Just like, you know, you got the battlefields, you got all the, the haunted places that I've

• 42:25Speaker 03

  Got a lot of soldiers, a lot of ghosts.

• 42:26Yvette Gentile?

  You got a lot of energy.

• 42:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, like trauma and death and like despair. And it's like, I can, it's fascinating that like different cultures have developed, like there, you know, different ways of speaking basically about the same concept.

• 42:38Rasha Pecoraro?

  Yeah.

• 42:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:39Yvette Gentile?

  I mean, we go back to that thing again, right? And it's that, it's that residual energy that keeps showing up after certain traumas, right?

• 42:48Speaker 02

  It's like replays, it like sticks around.

• 42:51Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah, it's on a loop.

• 42:53Speaker 03

  In some ways, I'm, I want to like be grateful that at least they, they don't realize that they passed. And maybe they didn't have to suffer on their way out. But then the other part is like, oh, well now they're stuck here because they don't know that if they're alive or not. So.

• 43:06Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah. Kind of a catch 22.

• 43:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:09Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, another version of these spectral passengers that I've heard about even beyond Japan is the ghostly hitchhiker. I have, I have these, I get really nervous when I talk about hitchhikers because I am not the one to ever hitchhike or even pick up a hitchhiker. I'm just saying.

• 43:28Rasha Pecoraro?

  Unless it's Madame Pele in Hawaii, you have to pick her up or bad things happen.

• 43:32Speaker 02

  I've heard that story, yes.

• 43:33Speaker 03

  Thank you for telling me.

• 43:34Rasha Pecoraro?

  You're welcome, M. We got you. We got you.

• 43:37Yvette Gentile?

  Okay. So I know of one story, though I'm not sure when it's from. It's about a man who was driving along Arkansas's rural highway 365. He reportedly picked up a young woman in a light colored dress one night. She was standing on the side of the road in the pouring rain. She gave him her home address and he drove her there. But when he arrived, the young woman had vanished from his backseat. And oddly enough, the driver's coat was missing too.

• 44:12Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah, so he decided to go knock on the door to the house anyway. And an elderly woman answered. When he shared what happened, she told him the girl sounded a lot like her daughter.

• 44:25Speaker 02

  Ooh.

• 44:26Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah, only she had died in a car accident many years earlier. She said there were others before him who claimed to have given her a ride with the same result. So the driver went to visit the girl's grave after that. And that's when he found his missing jacket draped over her tombstone. You've got to be kidding me.

• 44:50Speaker 02

  My god.

• 44:51Yvette Gentile?

  So it sounds like it's similar to what the taxi drivers experienced in Japan, right? A lost soul just trying to get back to their loved ones, trying to get back home.

• 45:04Speaker 02

  That's so sad. And then like to think with the jacket, like my, at least in my mind, it's like the driver said, oh, you're freezing. You're all wet. Like, here's my coat.

• 45:12Yvette Gentile?

  Right.

• 45:12Speaker 02

  You know, that's at least as in my head, like she took the coat because she's out in the rain. And then so it's like a thank you, like puts it back. I don't know. It's just so sweet and tragic.

• 45:22Yvette Gentile?

  And at the same time, it's like, I'm really here. It's proof, right?

• 45:27Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah, right too.

• 45:28Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 45:30Speaker 03

  Those blow my mind. That always blows my mind when there's a true interaction where like, it's one thing to see a ghost, but neither of you interact. But when there's actual conversation, it's like, how are both of you intelligently having this experience? And what way are you perceiving this ghost? Like, which are you? Do you know you're dead? Or do you think we're just two people talking amongst each other?

• 45:51Yvette Gentile?

  Right, right.

• 45:52Speaker 02

  It's mind boggling.

• 45:53Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 45:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, fascinating.

• 45:55Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah, it's never ending. And I was telling Rasha, like, who are the real ghost? And who are the aliens sometimes? Like, are we the aliens? Are we the ghost? And they are the real people? Which is this, right?

• 46:08Speaker 02

  Talk about above my pay grade.

• 46:09Yvette Gentile?

  Right?

• 46:10Speaker 02

  I don't know either. I think that's another quantum physics. Exactly. Who are the real ghosts? Oh, god, I'm not gonna sleep tonight.

• 46:18Yvette Gentile?

  I'm just saying.

• 46:23Yvette Gentile?

  Okay, so let's just say home isn't always the destination. Just take this story out of India. This is in 2007, two friends named Sanju and Anad were traveling from Mumbai to a seaside resort called Murud. Around 11:30 PM, they were nearing their destination, but they were the only car on the road, which is why they pulled over to help two strangers who looked stranded, and it just so happened to be a man and a woman. The exhausted couple said their names were Ravi and Sunita, and they were newlyweds on their honeymoon, and they had had, I guess, a rough evening.

• 47:05Yvette Gentile?

  They said they had rented a tandem bike for the day, but it had gotten a flat tire. Their resort was five miles away, and they didn't want to walk in the dark, which hello, I can't blame them either. I don't want a bike in the dark, let alone.

• 47:18Speaker 03

  No. When it's a tandem bike, both your bikes are broken. Yeah.

• 47:23Speaker 02

  You're also about to like get divorced on your honeymoon if you're on a tandem bike, lost a week. Be like, please, that's not gonna be, that's not gonna end well.

• 47:30Speaker 03

  Bad memory.

• 47:30Speaker 02

  I've never been with my wife on a tandem bike. Don't do it. I mean, I haven't either. I just can assume it's probably, my parents did one time in their divorce, so I feel like that's. Oh, my God. For all of us. Christine. I don't think that's what did it, to be clear. I'm so sorry to laugh at your parents. It can't be. That's hysterical.

• 47:47Yvette Gentile?

  Just saying, right, Christine?

• 47:49Speaker 02

  Just saying, amen.

• 47:50Yvette Gentile?

  Okay. Well, anyhow, nothing seemed unusual. There was even a broken tandem bike laying by the side of the robe, right? So Sanju told them, just hop in, right? Okay. And on the way, they chatted a bit, and Sanju thought the couple had, you know, a pretty good sense of humor, and they had bonded over the fact that Ravi and Sunita were also from Mumbai. And after a few minutes, the conversation died down, but Sanju could still hear them whispering to each other in the backseat. Oh, boy. And he didn't remember exactly when, but at some point, he checked his rearview mirror, and the couple had vanished. Both of them? They're gone. They're gone. But get this.

• 48:35Yvette Gentile?

  He and Anad could still hear them whispering.

• 48:39Speaker 02

  No.

• 48:41Yvette Gentile?

  Yes.

• 48:41Speaker 03

  Oh, my gosh.

• 48:44Speaker 02

  What the heck?

• 48:45Yvette Gentile?

  So you can imagine, right? Sanju slammed on the brakes and the two men leapt out of there terrified, like rightfully so, because I would be doing the same thing.

• 48:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:54Yvette Gentile?

  Get me the hell out of here. And as they started running, they heard laughter and a scream coming from the car. They kept running until they actually reached a police station. And there, the cops on duty told them that Ravi and Sunita were honeymooners who had hitchhiked a ride with the wrong person many, many years ago and had been found brutally murdered. This is why I don't hitchhike. I'm just.

• 49:29Speaker 02

  I mean, yeah.

• 49:30Yvette Gentile?

  Exactly why. And since then, other people reportedly encountered the couple on the road as well.

• 49:37Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 49:38Yvette Gentile?

  Who may have been taking that same doomed ride over and over for eternity.

• 49:46Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 49:46Speaker 02

  That's so tragic. Like, but.

• 49:48Yvette Gentile?

  Can you imagine?

• 49:50Speaker 02

  I mean, to be having to like relive this over and over and over. And then the whispering and you wonder like, is that what happened in the car?

• 49:57Speaker 03

  Yeah. Were they, did they realize that they made a mistake and they're whispering about?

• 50:02Speaker 02

  That's so dark.

• 50:04Speaker 03

  I know. It's like messed up, but I can't imagine them whispering about anything happy. I think they were like.

• 50:10Yvette Gentile?

  No, right? Because of the circumstances. But yeah, that's.

• 50:14Speaker 03

  Oh, man.

• 50:15Yvette Gentile?

  So do not hitchhike, y'all.

• 50:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:19Speaker 02

  Please just don't.

• 50:20Speaker 03

  You never hear about vanishing ghosts where there's like two of them. It's like, oh.

• 50:24Speaker 02

  That's a good point. Normally it's just one.

• 50:26Speaker 03

  That's true.

• 50:27Speaker 02

  I guess they're together. I was gonna say, I mean, I hope they, I hope that means like they have a better chance of maybe finding their way out of that.

• 50:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:35Speaker 02

  Loop or what have you.

• 50:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:37Rasha Pecoraro?

  I know. And it sounds like, I mean, with all the laughing, right? And screaming that was going on. I'm like, well, maybe now they're just having fun with it because they know they're not going anywhere else.

• 50:46Speaker 02

  Pranking people now.

• 50:47Rasha Pecoraro?

  Right.

• 50:47Speaker 02

  Maybe. They're like, we'll do the old tandem bike routine, you know?

• 50:50Rasha Pecoraro?

  And like, come on, babe, let's go.

• 50:53Speaker 02

  One can only hope.

• 50:54Rasha Pecoraro?

  I mean.

• 50:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:56Rasha Pecoraro?

  Make it a little lighter.

• 50:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. We try.

• 50:58Yvette Gentile?

  We try, right?

• 50:59Speaker 02

  We try so hard.

• 51:01Speaker 03

  So I grew up in Virginia and we had a haunted, a haunted bridge. They, that it was, it was called the Bunny Man Bridge. Um, and it, the Bunny Man is our cryptid.

• 51:13Rasha Pecoraro?

  Oh, you have a cryptid in Virginia? How did we not know that?

• 51:18Speaker 03

  He's under the radar. Actually, I, I covered, I think I did a two parter on him on, on our show.

• 51:24Rasha Pecoraro?

  Okay, then I will go back and listen.

• 51:25Speaker 03

  In depth on the Bunny Man. Hey, if you need a rabbit hole, get it? Stop it.

• 51:31Rasha Pecoraro?

  Yvette loves rabbit holes.

• 51:36Speaker 03

  Well, so the county over for me is, uh, it's Fairfax County and that's where the Bunny Man Bridge is. And the story that I always grew up with was that in the seventies, there was this man who was being transferred from one mental health hospital to another. At the time, they did not say mental health hospital. They were much more nasty.

• 51:56Rasha Pecoraro?

  Not PC.

• 51:57Speaker 03

  Yes. Yeah. He was like some horrible man and, you know, whatever. Um, anyway, during the transfer between the facilities, there, the bus crashed. And so the door accidentally got open and all of the patients that were being transferred to a different facility escaped. And only one of them was never captured. I don't know, brought, I don't know, brought back.

• 52:19Rasha Pecoraro?

  Right, right, right.

• 52:21Speaker 03

  So anyway, he went missing and the story was always that he just lived in the woods underneath the bridge. And he survived on the wildlife in the area to be able to eat. And during the winter, he was known, um, I guess that area was high in rabbits. And so the thought is that he would eat the bunnies and then he would use their fur to stay warm.

• 52:41Speaker 03

  And so eventually he had killed so many rabbits for survival and stitched them all together to make a fur suit, which essentially was a bunny suit. And a lot of people claimed that a human sized bunny was walking around in the woods under the bridge. Growing up in the area, the big dare amongst teenagers, first of all, was, oh, have you driven under the Bunny Man Bridge? But really, it was, have you driven under it at exactly midnight on Halloween? Oh, stop. Because if that happened, I never did. But the lore is that if you drove under the bridge at exactly midnight, if you looked out the rearview window, you would see the Bunny Man standing there and shadows of bunnies hanging over the overpass.

• 53:24Speaker 02

  What?

• 53:25Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 53:25Speaker 02

  Dead bunnies. Did you ever have anyone, Em, who claimed to have seen that? And you're like?

• 53:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, but it was always some-

• 53:33Speaker 02

  They're like-

• 53:33Speaker 03

  Guy at the party.

• 53:34Speaker 02

  Right, okay. So it's not like a trusted source.

• 53:37Speaker 03

  Trying to show off. I had one friend who said that he partied with the Bunny Man. And I'm like, okay, I don't believe you. Okay.

• 53:42Speaker 02

  I mean, maybe he did in, yeah, maybe. I don't know.

• 53:45Speaker 03

  His head.

• 53:46Speaker 02

  In his head.

• 53:48Speaker 03

  So, no, I have been to the bridge. It is a, shockingly, you already think it's probably, you know, not all that interesting of a bridge. It's actually an even less interesting bridge. So-

• 54:00Speaker 02

  It's more boring than the average bridge.

• 54:02Speaker 03

  I had to drive an hour to see this bridge. And I was like, this is it.

• 54:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, for-

• 54:06Speaker 03

  Nothing creepy about it? Not even a little bit. Not even a little bit. And at the end of the bridge is a dead end. So then you have to awkwardly like back up.

• 54:14Speaker 02

  Okay, but to be fair, that does make it a little creepy. Because it's like at midnight, if you're like, if one of your friends is like, what's that over there? And then you have to like, try and back up out of it. Like, that has its own-

• 54:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, but that's how I, that's how I know the Bunny Man isn't real. Because wouldn't the story be, once you drive through it, he's waiting for you at the dead end?

• 54:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 54:30Speaker 03

  And then you can't- Right, not just looking at you.

• 54:32Speaker 02

  I think what he is, he's, you get to the dead end, let's rewrite this. You get to the dead end, you're workshopping it. And then you're like, okay, nothing here. And you go to reverse and he's standing behind.

• 54:41Speaker 03

  Let's workshop this. I'm obsessed with both of you.

• 54:44Speaker 02

  Revisionist history, that's all. Yeah, you know what? It's already probably a fake story. We can, we can jish it up.

• 54:49Speaker 03

  Yeah. You can do what you want. We like to jish.

• 54:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:54Speaker 03

  Goodness. I mean, I'll go there with you. I'm at midnight if you want. I would go at midnight just to say that I did it. But I will tell you, it's no, when I was 16, I was actually too scared to go. And now, now that I've.

• 55:06Rasha Pecoraro?

  Well, because you knew ghosts really existed.

• 55:08Speaker 03

  Right. That's true.

• 55:09Rasha Pecoraro?

  You knew the supernatural was true.

• 55:12Speaker 03

  I, you're right. That's why I didn't do it.

• 55:15Rasha Pecoraro?

  Now, that's why.

• 55:16Speaker 00

  If he was in his seventies, he might still actually be alive. So, right, that's.

• 55:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, I guess he was always assumed to be the ghost of the bunny man. But really, it sounds more like a true crime story I just told. Now that I'm thinking about it.

• 55:26Rasha Pecoraro?

  You know?

• 55:28Speaker 03

  Urban legend.

• 55:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think it's a little bit of both combined.

• 55:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:33Speaker 03

  Some of the best stories are.

• 55:36Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 55:36Speaker 03

  Oh, my goodness.

• 55:37Speaker 00

  Well, maybe there is something about certain locations that keeps these souls trapped in one place, like we've been talking about, unable to escape no matter how hard they actually try.

• 55:56Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Ashley Flowers.

• 55:57Speaker 05

  And I'm Britt. And if you're on the edge of your seat, listening to this show, Crime Junkie needs to be your next listen.

• 56:03Speaker 00

  Every Monday, I dive into a new true crime case that our reporting team has been on the ground looking into, from lesser known disappearances to the most chilling cases hitting the headlines. And I'm going to walk you through it the way I tell my best friend, because, well, that's what I'm doing.

• 56:19Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's me. And I'm right there with you as we listen together, react to every wild detail, and of course, I ask all the questions.

• 56:27Speaker 00

  And I'm going to have the answers because we have case files. We're talking to detectives and family members, and we're going to stay focused on the facts.

• 56:34Speaker 05

  So if you're not already listening to Crime Junkie, what are you waiting for? There are over 300 episodes available right now.

• 56:40Speaker 00

  And you can listen to new episodes of Crime Junkie every Monday, wherever you get your podcasts.

• 56:50Yvette Gentile?

  Alrighty, we are back with M Schultz and Christine Schiefer from And That's Why We Drink. I don't, I love saying that so much.

• 56:58Rasha Pecoraro?

  She's obsessed.

• 56:59Speaker 02

  I know, it's catchy, huh?

• 57:00Rasha Pecoraro?

  It is catchy.

• 57:01Yvette Gentile?

  It really is. Well done you. Okay, we have been covering stories about phantom vehicles, passengers, and hitchikers from all around the world. But maybe it's not the passengers or the drivers we should be focusing on. Maybe there's something about certain locations that keep souls trapped in one place doomed to repeat their journeys time and time again. Right? And we can't explore this theory without talking about one of the creepiest roads in

• 57:40Yvette Gentile?

  America, Clinton Road in West Milford, New Jersey. Have you guys heard of this place?

• 57:47Speaker 03

  I, I have.

• 57:48Yvette Gentile?

  Ooh, detail.

• 57:49Rasha Pecoraro?

  Well, but I don't know much about it. I've heard of it, but M probably knows much more than I do.

• 57:55Speaker 03

  Well, actually, I am going to New Jersey soon, so I know I might just add this on my list of places to visit. I've never been before to this area, so I'll tack it on. But the only thing I've heard about is just like some of the weird encounters that people have experienced. I know there's like a truck that follows people too closely and like flashes their lights and then, and then the lights kind of, the truck vanishes even though it's never turned away. It's never turned left or right.

• 58:20Rasha Pecoraro?

  I've heard that one.

• 58:21Speaker 03

  There's a wolf with red eyes. There's park rangers that will help you out when you're lost. And then you realize that they were wearing uniforms from like the 30s.

• 58:30Yvette Gentile?

  Oh my goodness.

• 58:31Speaker 03

  And then there's a haunted Cadillac Camaro. Starts with a hard C, but there's a, there's a car that I guess someone crashed in the 70s and died and that car still seemed driving up and down the road.

• 58:43Yvette Gentile?

  Oh, that's a lot. That's a whole lot.

• 58:46Rasha Pecoraro?

  We had even more to add to that.

• 58:48Speaker 02

  I was gonna say, I think you're about to tell us more.

• 58:50Rasha Pecoraro?

  Yeah. Yeah, we have even more. I'm like, everything you told us, like, I guess we could be talking, we should have done just a whole episode on the legend of Clinton

• 58:58Yvette Gentile?

  Road. We totally could.

• 59:00Rasha Pecoraro?

  Oh, wow. Okay. So for those of you who don't know, this winding 10-mile stretch of road has been labeled one of the most haunted roads in the entire United States. And along with all those stories that Em has shared with us, some say that even the indigenous Americans and early settlers believed the land itself was cursed. Though, we haven't been able to find any actual evidence of that, or exactly why they thought that. But in 1905, an author and historian named Joseph Crane had a theory. He claimed the woods near the road were infested with witches.

• 59:43Speaker 03

  Infested? Mom, wait a minute.

• 59:46Rasha Pecoraro?

  I know, we knew it.

• 59:47Speaker 03

  Infestation is a little strong, but okay.

• 59:51Rasha Pecoraro?

  So Joseph said the witches gathered nightly to hold ritual dances, where they morphed into these terrifying forms. He didn't say specifically what those forms were, only that they scared the daylights out of any people or animals who encountered them.

• 1:00:07Speaker 03

  Because they were so beautiful.

• 1:00:08Rasha Pecoraro?

  Of course, of course. They were scared by their beauty.

• 1:00:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:00:12Rasha Pecoraro?

  So over the years, urban legends arose about different spots along Clinton Road, like what you've been sharing, Em. And one of the most famous is a bridge that crosses a tight corner called Dead Man's Curve. So there are a few versions of how this particular bridge became haunted. One is that a young boy drowned in the creek below. Another is that this boy's friends challenged him to stand on the bridge as some kind of prank, and ended up leaving him there for hours. And when they came back, they saw that he was dead. People also say, to this day, if you toss a coin into the water, he'll toss it back.

• 1:00:54Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. Now, that's cool.

• 1:00:57Rasha Pecoraro?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:58Speaker 03

  That is, I would absolutely try to do that when I'm 13. That's one that I'll do, yeah.

• 1:01:02Rasha Pecoraro?

  I would too. And one witness said that she tossed a quarter in, and exactly a minute later, heard a second splash, as if someone had dropped another coin. And she was there by herself, and when she looked into the creek, she saw the reflection of a boy.

• 1:01:19Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:01:20Yvette Gentile?

  Staring back at her in the water.

• 1:01:22Speaker 03

  Bye. Yeah.

• 1:01:23Yvette Gentile?

  See ya.

• 1:01:23Speaker 03

  See ya. What, I'm 13, I would do it. And then the second that I see him, I go, why did I do this? Right. I'm gonna regret this. Yeah. Yes.

• 1:01:31Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah. And this is, so you kind of tapped into this earlier, Em. The bridge isn't the only haunted spot. People have claimed that the whole 10 mile stretch of Clinton Road is full of weird supernatural energy. And plenty of eyewitnesses say they were driving there at night and noticed the headlights from a black pickup truck trailing close behind.

• 1:01:56Speaker 03

  Look at me go.

• 1:01:57Yvette Gentile?

  And, yeah. And then all of a sudden, the lights just disappeared, even though there was no intersection or pull off in sight. And there are also tales of the weather suddenly changing, like snow falling in the middle of summer, but only on the road itself.

• 1:02:16Speaker 03

  Get out. That's wild.

• 1:02:18Yvette Gentile?

  Like, that would freak me out.

• 1:02:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:21Yvette Gentile?

  But that would be cool, though, to be in that.

• 1:02:23Speaker 03

  That would be cool. It'd be super cool, and no one would ever believe me, even if I had.

• 1:02:28Speaker 03

  They'd be like, that's AI.

• 1:02:30Yvette Gentile?

  That's when you do live.

• 1:02:31Speaker 03

  Yeah. Right, exactly. That is when you capture it. Right.

• 1:02:35Yvette Gentile?

  Okay, so there's also whispers about UFOs, satanic rituals, and the secret KKK meetings at a burnt out castle near the road, which I would definitely steer clear of.

• 1:02:49Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:02:50Yvette Gentile?

  I'm just saying.

• 1:02:51Speaker 03

  I thought you were gonna say, I'm definitely checking that out. And I was like, oh, hell no. What the heck?

• 1:02:55Yvette Gentile?

  No, no, no.

• 1:02:56Speaker 03

  No, thank you.

• 1:02:57Yvette Gentile?

  Okay. The three story stone building was built in 1907 by a guy named Richard Cross and was used as his country estate. It featured 365 acres of farmland, woods, and a pond. However, Cross died in 1917, and the castle was sold to the city of Newark two years later.

• 1:03:21Yvette Gentile?

  The uninhabited property began to deteriorate and was stripped bare of anything that could be sold. And eventually, of course, it became a hangout for kids looking just to party in secret.

• 1:03:34Speaker 03

  I mean, an old castle. Yeah, that's

• 1:03:36Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah, right?

• 1:03:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, I would. Yeah.

• 1:03:38Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:39Yvette Gentile?

  And then in 1988, the city of Newark demolished what was left because it was considered a safety hazard. And not long after that, one group of friends decided to investigate the castle ruins for fun. They lit a bonfire and cracked open a few beers, as you would, and half an hour later, they heard ominous chanting coming from somewhere nearby and the rattle of chains.

• 1:04:09Speaker 03

  A what?

• 1:04:10Yvette Gentile?

  It was then that one of them suddenly had a seizure.

• 1:04:17Yvette Gentile?

  Allegedly, she became so incredibly heavy that none of her friends could actually lift her or even move her.

• 1:04:27Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 1:04:28Yvette Gentile?

  As soon as the chanting stopped, that is when she supposedly regained consciousness.

• 1:04:34Speaker 03

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:04:35Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah, chanting feels not good to me.

• 1:04:37Speaker 03

  Even if nothing paranormal was happening, talk about the worst time ever to have a seizure. No, I feel so bad for that person.

• 1:04:45Yvette Gentile?

  Yeah. Well, let's jump into another story. This time, it's on a road in southern Scotland called the A75 that passes through a town called Dumfries. The area is said to be the most haunted highway in the entire country of Scotland. Apparently, there are a lot of paranormal sightings associated with this particular four-mile stretch of road. But there's one story I have to share with you. It's about a pair of truck-driving brothers named Derek and Norman Ferguson.

• 1:05:18Rasha Pecoraro?

  Back in 1962, they were driving late at night when a chicken flew straight at their windshield, only to disappear a split second before any impact happened.

• 1:05:28Speaker 03

  That's a long time. That's a first.

• 1:05:34Rasha Pecoraro?

  And as if that wasn't terrifying enough, like they thought they were gonna kill this chicken, as they kept driving, they encountered more spectral creatures in the road. We're talking huge wild cats, dogs, and goats.

• 1:05:48Speaker 03

  What?

• 1:05:49Rasha Pecoraro?

  Yeah, and each time their truck got close to one of the animals, it completely vanished.

• 1:05:54Speaker 03

  Oh my gosh, the adrenaline spikes every time you think you're gonna hit a dog.

• 1:05:57Rasha Pecoraro?

  I know, I know. Like, what is happening right now? After a few of these near misses, the brothers pulled over to simply catch their breath. And that's when their entire vehicle got incredibly cold inside, as if they had just walked into a freezer. Then, the truck itself shook wildly, like something outside was trying to tip them over.

• 1:06:20Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:06:21Rasha Pecoraro?

  One of them got up the courage to leave the truck to see what it was. But, as soon as he stepped out, the shaking stopped. So, of course, they cranked that engine back up and sped off. But wait, there's more.

• 1:06:35Speaker 03

  Wait for it.

• 1:06:37Rasha Pecoraro?

  A little further down the road, they spotted an elderly couple with long, white hair. And as they passed them, these old people chased after the truck, but then disappeared just like the animals did.

• 1:06:50Speaker 03

  What is going on?

• 1:06:52Rasha Pecoraro?

  Others in the area have reported seeing that exact same couple. One woman was driving down that same stretch of road when an elderly man left in front of her car. She slammed on the brakes, but she knew she couldn't slow down in time. Except just before impact, the old man disappeared. A man named Bob Sturgeon owned a roadside snack van off the A75 for years and years. And he had heard plenty of stories about unusual encounters almost weekly.

• 1:07:23Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 1:07:23Rasha Pecoraro?

  Yeah, he said these tales mostly came from long distance truck drivers who had nothing to gain by telling him these stories, right? Yeah, fair enough. And some of them were so traumatized by what they saw. And one of his regular customers was so traumatized and so shaken up after a particular encounter, that particular man gave up truck driving for good.

• 1:07:50Speaker 02

  Oh, so he left his whole career path. He's like, actually, that's enough. That's enough for me.

• 1:07:55Rasha Pecoraro?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:57Speaker 03

  My gosh, geez.

• 1:07:58Yvette Gentile?

  I mean, that would freak me out. Rasha, do you remember we were taking a drive to LA one time and all of a sudden, all of these bugs, like, I swear to God, hundreds of thousands of bugs just like boom, boom, boom, boom, hitting the windshield and we were just freaking the...

• 1:08:13Rasha Pecoraro?

  Yeah, it was not okay. And they didn't disappear, I imagine, upon impact. They just hit your...

• 1:08:18Yvette Gentile?

  No, they just kept, no, they just kept coming. And it was like blacking out our windshield.

• 1:08:24Rasha Pecoraro?

  Yeah. It was, it was freaking. So here's my, my humble opinion. My humble opinion is that the couple, all the animals, I think that something happened to them there and that was their last resting place. And they're just making themselves known.

• 1:08:42Speaker 03

  That's nicer than them being just like murderous animals.

• 1:08:45Rasha Pecoraro?

  Right. I don't want to believe in murderous animals. I mean, I just got a brand new kitten and I think he might be because I'm not a cat person, but that's another story.

• 1:08:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I can probably confirm that for you as a cat owner, but I mean, a little demon in a best way, like in a cat way, because they're all like a little bit demonic, but like, we love them for that, you know?

• 1:09:03Rasha Pecoraro?

  Exactly.

• 1:09:06Yvette Gentile?

  Do love him.

• 1:09:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, you will.

• 1:09:08Yvette Gentile?

  Okay, well, what is interesting about all of these stories is it's not just one person who saw something. Many claim to have seen the same or similar events repeated. Like if we go back to the Surrey ghost car with multiple callers reporting the crash, or the case of the hitchhiking daughter who had been killed and lured several drivers back to her parents' home after she died, or the train over the Bostian Bridge. You almost get a sense of history repeating itself. Like, I say this all the time. Is there a time loop that is repetitively on play at that exact certain time and moment? Right?

• 1:09:54Yvette Gentile?

  Okay. Which is why I want to bring up an ancient theory that was made popular, again, by the philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche. And he spoke about a concept called eternal recurrence. Basically, the idea is that time repeats in an infinite loop with exactly the same events occurring over and over again for eternity. Nietzsche used this concept as a thought experiment, a way to challenge people to live life in a way that they, you know, wouldn't regret. And it was supposed to make you think about how you'd make different choices if you knew you'd have to live them again and again and again.

• 1:10:40Yvette Gentile?

  But maybe, just maybe, he was on to something bigger. What if the universe does repeat itself? And all of these apparitions aren't actually the dead coming back to haunt us, but echoes of the world that came before? What do y'all think about that?

• 1:10:59Speaker 03

  I, I think a lot of times that our ghosts are our future selves looking out for us.

• 1:11:06Yvette Gentile?

  Oh, I like that.

• 1:11:07Speaker 03

  And so that's why when you get a gut feeling, it's because it's yourself being like, get out of here. Like, I know what's coming. Like your higher self, like, kind of being like...

• 1:11:17Speaker 03

  I'm also, I'm a big time travel nerd, and so in my mind, I'm like, however I can make that possible is how, instead of it being, if it's, if it's on loop, that would mean that the events are in the past, but also in the future, which means... Fair enough. Yeah. It's coming.

• 1:11:29Yvette Gentile?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:11:31Speaker 03

  So in my mind, I, I, I can get with Nietzsche on this for sure.

• 1:11:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, also, like, if you think about, I mean, just not to say quantum physics again, geez, we start talking again. Oh, my gosh.

• 1:11:45Rasha Pecoraro?

  Quantum physics is above my pay grade.

• 1:11:47Speaker 02

  Is above all our pay grade, let's be clear. But like the concept that, you know, time being, you know, not as tangible as we think or not, you know, what did Einstein said, uh, reality is an illusion, but a persistent one, like the idea that times are all happening at once, but for our human brains to comprehend, we have to understand like past, present, future, like in a narrative sense. And sometimes we get glimpses into, you know, times that are almost like a glitch, I guess, but like crossovers of these timelines. So I don't know. I mean, I think there's clearly something to all of that and the fact that, I don't know, so many people and now am signing on with Nietzsche and maybe there's something to it.

• 1:12:28Rasha Pecoraro?

  Well, I'm not sure we'll ever be able to actually prove whether eternal recurrence is real or if spectral phenomena is a blip in this space time continuum. But I think there's some mysteries to life that we aren't meant to solve. And that's okay, because it's these things that give us hope. It's these mysteries that keep us going, these unsolvable puzzles that get us to ask bigger philosophical questions about the meaning of life. And because of that, I'm happy to keep guessing, to keep on doing the deep diving and to keep learning, because what kind of world are we living in if there are no more questions

• 1:13:12Rasha Pecoraro?

  left for us to answer? The supernatural, I think that is what keeps all of us going, right?

• 1:13:20Speaker 02

  And that's why we drink. Freaking lukey. That is why we drink. Amen. I mean.

• 1:13:25Speaker 03

  Mic drop.

• 1:13:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, what Raj said. Agreed. Well done. That, that was so much more poignant than I could have put it, but yes, I agree with you. Um, the, the questions, I'm always like, I want an answer now, but I think, um, deep down, I know that that's part of the fun. Yeah.

• 1:13:43Yvette Gentile?

  Right, right. And time is so precious and it reveals itself always at the right place and moment.

• 1:13:51Speaker 02

  You're right.

• 1:13:52Yvette Gentile?

  We just have to be patient. Oh, my gosh, I don't want this to end, you guys. I just want to thank you so much, Em, Christine, for joining us here on So Supernatural. You guys are just so much fun, pure joy. I mean, it's been so great to get your take on all of this stuff, and especially, of course, for spooky season and Halloween.

• 1:14:15Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for having us. This has been an honor. We don't really often have the time to just like, just kind of do a roundtable discussion of like, what on earth is going on with these ghosts, you know? So this was a very, very enlightening, and you two are so much fun. So it's an honor. Thank you for having us.

• 1:14:32Yvette Gentile?

  Thank you so much.

• 1:14:33Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:14:33Yvette Gentile?

  Yes, really. Mahalo Nui Loa to both of you. You are just a breath of fresh air, truly. Wow, thank you.

• 1:14:41Speaker 02

  I love it.

• 1:14:42Yvette Gentile?

  And if you want to hear more from them, check out their show, And That's Why We Drink, on YouTube and wherever else you get your podcasts. We'll see you back here next week for another episode.

• 1:15:02Yvette Gentile?

  This is So Supernatural, an AudioChuck original, produced by Crime House. You can connect with us on Instagram at So Supernatural Pod and visit our website at sosupernaturalpodcast.com. Join Rasha and me next Friday for an all-new episode.

• 1:15:22Yvette Gentile?

  I think Chuck would approve.

• 1:15:28Speaker 06

  When the nights grow longer, the shadows start to stir, and that can only mean one thing: Full Body Chills is back. This season, step inside original tales where every doorway leads somewhere darker, every stranger carries a secret, and nothing is ever quite what it seems. Each story takes you somewhere new, but be careful, you never know what might follow you home. So gather around, listen close, and stream Full Body Chills wherever you get your podcasts.