RE-AIR: Conversations: Charybdis, a Gaping, Hungry Hole; Fear of the Monstrous Woman w/ Cosi Carnegie

This episode originally aired in March 2024. Liv is joined by Cosi Carnegie to talk all things horny (boob cups! the threat of a sexual woman! all the erotic pottery you can imagine!) Follow Cosi on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/cosisodyssey/?hl=en; read more https://www.cosisodyssey.com/ from her; and learn more about Propylaea Productions https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJ891r9gBoGfLY5C-5ig1Cg! Submit your question for the next Q&A via email http://mythsbaby.com/questions or a voice note https://www.speakpipe.com/LTAMB. Get ad-free episodes and so, so much more, by subscribing to the Oracle Edition at patreon.com/mythsbaby http://patreon.com/mythsbaby. Watch Liv and Cosi speaking live in London here! https://youtu.be/IDoWw5C3rS8?feature=shared CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. Given it's fiction, and typically involves gods and/or monsters, I'm not as deferential as I would be were I referencing the real thing. Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here: mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Liv Albert?

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful, and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com/groups.

• 0:35Speaker 01

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• 2:03Liv Albert?

  Hello, this is Let's Talk About Myths, baby! And I am your host, Liv, here with arguably, not arguably, definitely, absolutely the raciest episode I've ever recorded. And oh, what a joy it was. Today, I am joined by my friend, and I would like to clarify that we are friends. I did not inflict this upon a stranger, Cosi Carnegie. Cosi is a master's student at Cambridge, and generally just an incredibly fun person. Being Australian helps, but it is also just Cosi, who joined

• 2:44Liv Albert?

  me to talk, oh my gosh, everything? Boob cups were the beginning, and originally were supposed to make it into the episode title, until we got to the concept of Charybdis just being a gaping and hungry hole. Spoilers for some of the best parts of the episode. Oh my god, we had so much fun talking about the ways in which ancient male fear manifested in how they spoke about and visualized and generally understood women. From things like

• 3:24Liv Albert?

  the fear of paternity, like what it meant that women could hide who the father of a child was, oh, the horrors, all the way to Skila and Charybdis. As, I mean, I've always, you know, been interested in them as women, but I, it had escaped me, just how sexualized they are. Apparently, I need to be looking at everything with a slightly hornier eye. I have learned my lesson. Which is all to say, you know, this episode has a lot of sexual content. For once, we don't talk about assault, I don't think. So that's something.

• 4:06Liv Albert?

  Basically, the ancient Greeks were super horny and simultaneously super afraid of the power that women Held, just, just biologically. You know, the, the power of the uterus, I should say. They were really afraid of that thing. I, this was such a joy of an episode. If you can't already tell, um, I just re-listened to it again and we had such a great time. Um, that said, I, I wish I'd let, uh, Cosi talk a little bit more, but I was going through some stuff and this is how I handled it apparently is ADHD went wild. I also just want to add a couple of clarifications for things that come up in this episode.

• 4:48Liv Albert?

  Um, first I did mention the Medusa book that I am working on and I said that it, the call for short stories is still open. I don't believe that's true. Um, but if you're interested in this Medusa book that is in the works by me and the reason I've been having my brain explode even more than usual lately. Um, and also is featuring a ton of short stories. Uh, you can check that out. It's on Flame Tree Press. Uh, it's still a ways out, but I think you can look into it if you are at all curious. I also want, speaking of Medusa, to add a clarification, uh, there is a point where I talk about my least favorite Greek myth retelling books, um, like one of those anthology compendiums of like all quote unquote Greek myths.

• 5:33Liv Albert?

  And the author says some really dumb stuff about Medusa that remains dumb, um, and super patriarchal and, and super misogynist. But one thing that both Cosi and I thought was like completely made up technically is not. Um, there is a reference in Pseudo Apollodorus. It's like this fucking final sentence. Literally it's like the entire story of Medusa and it's like all of what we think and know, the normal stuff. And then the very end, he's like, you know, some people say that actually she said she was prettier than Athena and that's why she was cursed.

• 6:06Liv Albert?

  And like, that's, that's literally the whole of it. So it is still absurd to write that additional sentence into the actual plot structure of the Medusa myth. That is still absurd and contextually wrong and egregious, but it isn't technically coming out of nowhere. And on that note, let's just dive right in to the horniest episode of this podcast. Just in time to finish off Women's History Month, we are looking at the threat of a horny woman.

• 6:56Liv Albert?

  Conversations. Charybdis, a gaping, hungry hole, fearing the monstrous woman with Cossey Carnegie.

• 7:19Speaker 04

  Do you need me to do like an intro or are you just gonna like intro me in the recording and be like, this is Cossey. She's Australian and swears a lot. Welcome to the fucking show.

• 7:28Liv Albert?

  I might cut that out and put it somewhere.

• 7:34Liv Albert?

  We, we talked in Athens. We met for the first time. That was so fun. Even though we've known each other for like probably five or six years.

• 7:42Speaker 04

  Oh my God, what did you say like that? God damn.

• 7:45Liv Albert?

  I found one of the mugs, or you sent me one mug, I guess. I forgot I even had it. I like, was going through my cupboard the other day and I pulled it down. I was like, oh, this is so cute. And it just, it's like some goddess on the front and then it just says, Cossey's Odyssey on the back. But it was very cute. I was like, that was fucking years ago. You would have sent me that one.

• 8:01Speaker 04

  That was, no, that was the Hestia mug. That was like three years ago.

• 8:05Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 8:05Speaker 04

  That was three years ago. That's insane.

• 8:06Liv Albert?

  I love it. Yep. And then I still have like the little branded condoms that like sometimes just like pop up somewhere in my apartment because I've just like, you've sent me enough that I've just kind of like stuffed those places.

• 8:20Speaker 04

  People just send me unsolicited photos of the condoms in their hands, just in my DMs. I'm like, happy for you. Stay safe out there. Woo.

• 8:31Liv Albert?

  I mean, I think that's the perfect introduction to

• 8:35Liv Albert?

  generally having you on the show.

• 8:38Liv Albert?

  Though, of course, today's episode isn't about codobos. We'll leave that as just a little, a little Easter egg for future recordings.

• 8:48Speaker 04

  Oh, yes, please. Yes, please.

• 8:50Liv Albert?

  But like, I feel like we were just sitting at dinner and I was like, you should come on my show. What could we talk about? And then you told me a whole thing that frankly, I've forgotten most of. But I just remember thinking, I would like to talk to you about this on the show. And I could fit it into Women's History Month. And that is the extent of my memory on the topic. But like, have you written something recently? I know it was sexy. Do you remember? This is a very casual conversation. I'm keeping all of this in.

• 9:19Speaker 04

  Okay, thank God.

• 9:22Speaker 04

  I do remember we were talking about what I wanted to write my thesis on. And hopefully my PhD on. And so what I was blathering on to you about was the connection between the female body and drinking vessels. And particularly like, the way that they facilitate not only containment, but also consumption. And how there's a sort of connection between the female body's ability to disrupt boundaries and kind of mess with everything. And that there's a sort of kind of appetite associated with the female body

• 10:05Speaker 04

  that can be kind of seen in the visual imagery and the vessels themselves. I think that is what got you excited.

• 10:14Liv Albert?

  Heck, yes. And so it was, I mean, this was off mic, I think. But I'm just going to point out that it was particularly relevant that I just showed you my little cantaro that sits behind me while I record and which shows Circe having transformed a man into a pig. And he's like, holding a cup, just waiting for more. And now it feels even more relevant.

• 10:36Speaker 04

  It's absolutely relevant. And I think what I wanted to talk to you about was, um, have you heard of Mastoi cups?

• 10:43Liv Albert?

  No, but I, based on the word, I've got an inkling and I would love to hear more. I love etymology. I feel like I can pick stuff out. I'm ready to be right.

• 10:55Speaker 04

  You know, you know what's going on. Um, so it is exactly what you think it is. It is this breast shaped cup that they used to drink from. And it like, it had a nipple on the bottom.

• 11:09Liv Albert?

  Just a boob cup.

• 11:11Speaker 04

  Just a boob cup. They were, like, I think, I don't know if the term boob cup has made it into scholarly journals, but if it hasn't, it should.

• 11:19Liv Albert?

  Well, it's going to be in the episode's title, so we'll get it started.

• 11:23Speaker 04

  Okay, boob cups. Um, so they were these sort of incredible things that they would, they would hold them in their hands and they would drink from them. And I mean, whether you want to think of it as like a very kind of erotic suggestive sensual thing, or if it's just like calling Dr. Freud. I don't know which way you want to slice it. I, I'm not presuming to, you know, I'm not judging anyone. I'm not, what's that horrible phrase? I'm not yucking anyone's yum. But it's like, I again, I feel like I can't not address that just like a tiny bit.

• 11:55Liv Albert?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, okay, I'm trying to picture it. Um, so is it kind of like a right on? In that you think, you look at it and you think like, how would you set this down and have it not spill? Cause now I'm thinking of like a nipple on the bottom of a cup just feels incredibly impractical for like, I don't think this is gravity, but I don't do science, but you know what I mean? Sitting something down on the surface when it has a nipple on the bottom just feels like it's going to be a little unsteady. Which reminds me of like, you know, when they drink out of like a, a goat's head in a right on or something. And you're like, how do you set that down? Do you have to chug it all at once? What do you do?

• 12:35Speaker 04

  I think, um, so just visually, it's similar to a skifos. And I don't know if you can add some images.

• 12:43Liv Albert?

  Yep.

• 12:43Speaker 04

  To, um, to this episode, but it's sort of this sort of size. And it does, you know, exactly as you were saying, have that sort of weird nipple bottom, which does make it really impractical, but also some kylixes had nipple bottoms. This was, there's a whole thing with ancient, ancient drinking vessels where they would give them kind of body parts. So vases would have, you know, feet and lips and faces and it's, you know, they were very into the whole, the vase has a body. But with the mastoid cups and other cups where you couldn't really put them down, that sort of played into the drinking party or the symposium. So it was all part of the theater of it all and the kind of challenge of masculinity.

• 13:27Speaker 04

  And exactly as you said, would you have to chug the whole thing? I mean, probably.

• 13:32Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 13:32Speaker 04

  Like realistically, probably.

• 13:33Liv Albert?

  Practically speaking, yeah.

• 13:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, like where are you, do you nestle it in some dirt in the androm, maybe? Do you nestle it in another person?

• 13:42Liv Albert?

  In their androms? Are you, do you nestle, I, I cut you off from saying, do you nestle it in another person?

• 13:50Speaker 04

  I mean, I don't presume, we know, we know they all got up to all kinds of shenanigans at the symposium. So God knows what they were capable of when it came to their drinking vessels. We have some harrowing visual images of satyrs doing unspeakable things to cups and jars. So it's not out of the realm. Yeah, I know, satyrs, what are you gonna do? But it's not outside the realm of possibility. Yes, everyone listening at home, please Google mastoid cups.

• 14:19Liv Albert?

  Yes. Oh my God, well, uh, when we have a promo for this, I'll, Michaela will certainly find pictures. I know that by this point she will have already searched and found them. Uh, but like, I ju, I mean, that's a joy. That's, I love the drinking tradition, but I also am so fascinated by like these connections with women in such like powerful ways, but then simultaneously, and like, I don't know, you know, location wise, but I imagine so much of what we comes from, what we have comes from Athens that like, so they're just like doing all these things, kind of i- in seeming reverence to women. But then they're also like, you don't get to be people, though.

• 15:03Speaker 04

  I think, I mean, I completely agree in that you, there are so many different ways to look at it. Right? And you can look at it as a beautiful way of like enshrining the female body and worshiping the female body. But also if you flip that, isn't it just the most absurd form of objectification?

• 15:19Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 15:21Speaker 04

  Just, I mean, I wish, trust me, I want to believe that it was all this, oh, she's on a pedestal, she's on a pot, da, da, da. But it's like, no, you are not only an object in this way, we will drink wine from you. Welcome to ancient Greece.

• 15:36Liv Albert?

  It's like doing a shot where, like out of a belly button, but like ancient Greek style.

• 15:41Speaker 04

  Worse, yeah, but worse and more extreme.

• 15:44Liv Albert?

  Yeah, because also like if we're talking symposia, then there would be minimal to no women involved who weren't, you know, sex workers in some way. So like, and you know, I, I mean, Hetera, I think, get a bad rap, but like are very fucking fancy, well-off ladies who, you know, just were companions for gifts. And like, I think nothing wrong with that in a world like Athens. I feel like it's probably the only way I would want to live, quite frankly.

• 16:18Speaker 04

  Oh, truly. I would prefer to be at those parties rather than stuck at home.

• 16:22Liv Albert?

  Yeah, exactly. Like, I feel like if I had to pick a life, particularly specifically in ancient Athens, like hundred percent, I want to be a phreni. I don't want to be just like a lady in the house, you know?

• 16:34Speaker 04

  A phreni would be, oh.

• 16:36Liv Albert?

  Right?

• 16:36Speaker 04

  That would be a moment. That would be a moment. I'm not saying it's without complexities, but it would be a moment.

• 16:40Liv Albert?

  No, no, of course. Yeah, yeah. I mean, ancient Greece, if anything, is complex as all shit. And sometimes we have to just find little joy in pretending that things can be simple and not quite so awful.

• 16:54Speaker 04

  Yes, yes. If, if we can just rose colored glasses the whole situation.

• 16:58Liv Albert?

  Exactly.

• 17:01Liv Albert?

  So, okay, like, other than the boob cups, like, what have you looked at in terms of, like, women's bodies and drinking? Or like, I mean, I just, I love this idea so much. I'm also not gonna pretend I'm not getting ideas for my novel.

• 17:17Speaker 04

  I know, that makes me so happy.

• 17:21Speaker 04

  I mean, I think what sort of got me thinking about this was looking at all of the myths and the imagery that depict female monstrosity. And then, right, and then coupling those with all of the very, very explicit images we have of hetero in wild, unfathomable, seemingly physically impossible orgies and sexual situations from the symposium. And then I was sort of looking at those two sets of images. And it got me thinking that there might actually be something similar happening here. And then I wondered what that was, because

• 18:03Speaker 04

  the female monstrosity stuff has been looked at a lot. You know, we're talking about Medusa, we're talking about Skila and Charybdis, we're talking about the Sphinx, you know? That's all sort of quite familiar stuff. But then, when it comes to scholarship, oddly enough, the fancy professors haven't been rushing to look at the porn. There's not just, I know, I know, knock me down with a feather. And so in looking at those two sets of images, I was trying to figure out, you know, what they might be telling us about the ancient sort of imaginary when it came to the woman and the female body. And so then, I was, I started thinking about appetites and sexual appetites and thirst and then actual

• 18:48Speaker 04

  physical hunger. So if you compare the sort of hyper-sexualized depictions of the hetero with Charybdis, the gaping, forever-hungry whirlpool.

• 19:01Liv Albert?

  Why have I never thought of Charybdis this way?

• 19:06Speaker 04

  She's my favorite. I think about her way too much.

• 19:10Liv Albert?

  I, me too. Like, I actually wrote about her for a thing that I don't think has been officially announced. I don't say it, but like, I got to write about her a little bit. Like, I was given a list and just, like, asked to pick, and I was like, fucking Charybdis. Even though I was like, I don't know how I'm gonna, you know, like, there's not a lot to say. And now I realize I missed saying that, which was good. This is for kids, I think. Um, but like-

• 19:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, leave that one out.

• 19:32Liv Albert?

  Yeah, but I, I love her. Like, I think that she really is so interesting in that way of like, she is like nothing, but also fascinating. And also like a she despite the fact that she is a gaping, hungry hole, which now I'm thinking a lot more about.

• 19:49Speaker 04

  Like, she's feminized, and then it's so, there are so many connections here where like, the feeling of arousal and kind of erotic emotion is so closely associated with liquidity. And Charybdis is in the ocean, right? And then you have Skilla, who has dogs coming out of her waist. Women were called bitches a lot in ancient Greece, and that was associated with their, like, hypersexuality and their sexual appetite. So it's like, you have these two female monsters that men have to travel through, and they both have these kind of erotic, hungry, monstrous aspects. It's just, oh, blows my mind.

• 20:33Liv Albert?

  I, I, yeah, I love that. I just so much. Um, you've forever changed. My, two of my favorite monsters. Um, because I don't really count Nisa as a monster. Absolutely in a good way. Like, I just think Skilla and Charybdis are so interesting generally with, even without that, that now I'm like, oh, I'm obsessed with you guys.

• 20:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 20:55Liv Albert?

  Because I also think they're, I mean, me too. Like, they've always been my fave because they're just like this fun little duo where you like, always have to, it's always Skilla and Charybdis. And Charybdis has always just been fascinating to me because it's just a fucking gaping whirlpool. But now, oh, now I have so many more thoughts.

• 21:14Speaker 04

  I think in The Odyssey, in a day, I literally call them like a toxic pair of female friends, like teamwork makes the dream work. That's literally them.

• 21:22Liv Albert?

  No, 100%. They work together to kill everyone, and I love it for them.

• 21:27Speaker 04

  And they're horny and they're scary.

• 21:29Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 21:29Speaker 04

  And I love it.

• 21:30Liv Albert?

  I never thought of them as horny, and now I'll never forget it. And I, I just think, yeah, they are, they are so much more interesting.

• 21:38Speaker 04

  I think it's just when you read, I think it's Aeskalus who is talking about Clytemnestra, or it's maybe Homer talking about Helen, but calling them dog-faced or bitches.

• 21:50Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 21:50Speaker 04

  As like a clear reference. I think it's in Emily Wilson's introduction to The Odyssey, where it's a clear, clear pulling on their sexuality as part of, you know, saying horrible things about them. And so then if you look at Skiller, it's like, ooh, what's all this then?

• 22:08Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Okay. Now I need, I just want to know about all the horny women that I've never seen as horny because I've just been reading the wrong shit. Like, yeah, I, hey, so I.

• 22:24Speaker 04

  I feel like you need some time to process. You're like.

• 22:27Liv Albert?

  Truly, truly. This happens a lot, but it's rarely about something quite so joyfully weird.

• 22:34Liv Albert?

  So I, I ha, I'm working on writing, um, I forget when it's coming out, but there is a, a call out for, for short stories about, or featuring Medusa, like of any kind, just fiction generally. It's by Flame Tree Press. You can go look for it if you want to submit anything. But I am writing the, like, I don't, I forget what we're calling it, but like, it's kind of an introduction, but it's like a very, it's like almost 30,000 words. So like, it's going to be a good, long introduction about Medusa as a character and her cultural history and like.

• 23:08Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 23:09Liv Albert?

  You know, yeah. And I was thrilled to be asked to write it, and at least because it means that my name is associated with Medusa in any kind of way. Um, but like, I've been just, at this point, just doing some like really surface level looks into, like, I obviously know the ancient sources pretty front and back when it comes to Medusa, but I don't have as great a grasp on like. Her, you know, over the last thousand years, say. And so I was like, looking for more kind of contemporary understanding of her. Uh, and I found this video on YouTube by the History Channel.

• 23:47Liv Albert?

  And it is terrifyingly hot garbage, like just incredibly wild. Like, you know, it's, it's most egregious thing is just the conflation of Ovid with Greek myth. And this like, the thing that people love to do of like, telling a story that only Ovid is evidenced for writing about and pretending like that's the Greek myth. And so there's all this talk of Greek myth, Greek myth, Greek myth. And then it's literally all the stuff that is exclusive to Ovid. And like, there's nothing wrong with Ovid as a source, but it is, you know, cut and dry, not Greek myth. We don't have any evidence that like, parts of that story, you know, actually appeared in Greek myth, blah, blah, blah.

• 24:29Liv Albert?

  But like, you know, they also had all these like male talking heads and one woman. Uh, well, a couple of women. So that, yeah, there, there are these all male talking heads who are just like going off about Medusa and saying these things that just sound like Freud. Like, like they, they sound like, you know, Freud's interpretation of Medusa, this idea that she was this, you know, this feared monster where, you know, men fear like a powerful woman. I'm trying to remember all what it was. I just, I just remember being like shocked that it was like such psychologizing.

• 25:07Liv Albert?

  For a character like Medusa who like, objectively, and this is why I'm bringing it up because I'm so curious for thoughts. But like, to me, the ancient Greek sources, as we have them, and I would say like, the visual representations as well, do not give us any indication that Medusa was like.

• 25:27Liv Albert?

  A creature that was actively feared by men. Like, you know, in Hesiod, she's literally said to be like, just, you know, the only mortal Gorgon. She suffered a woeful fate is the translation that I have completely memorized. And then, and you know, Perseus killed her. But there's literally nothing about her being dangerous, causing any damage, even being monstrous, or, or like, literally, really any details about her. And if you go through the surviving Greek sources, like, there's really nothing in terms of, of her being a danger to anyone. Like, the entirety of the story is that Perseus needed to bring back her head because, you know,

• 26:09Liv Albert?

  Polydectes wanted him dead, and so it was like, go get me Medusa's head as a gift. And he just figured it would kill Perseus. Like, that's the whole of it. It's not like, you know, like, a lot of times, people will talk about Medusa, and they'll be like, well, she, you know, was terrorizing the lands, and so, like, she needed to die. And I'm like, there's literally not a single line in a surviving Greek source that says she did any damage whatsoever. Like, while her head was on her body. Like, sure, he used it as a weapon. Like, that's not on her. I don't know what people are, you know. It, it's just fascinating to me. Um, but these, these men talking about it, who were scholars, were like, they were definitely putting their own anxieties about women, like, into this History Channel piece about Medusa. Because I was like, as somebody who knows the ancient sources, like, absolutely not. Not to mention that a Gorgon was then used as a protective.

• 26:53Liv Albert?

  Like, it's apotropaic.

• 26:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, that was exactly, I think, two points to what you're saying. And the first thing I think that complicates, um, exactly what you're saying about the written sources, is it was, you know, the Sibyl, the Gorgonion, you know, it was apotropaic, and it was protective. And, and it's so difficult to trace back, like, how exactly that visual would have functioned, because it was frightening. It was supposed to be frightening. It's on Athena's shield. It was supposed to be scary. You know, like, that, that much we know. That much is, you know, a part of it. So it's.

• 27:36Speaker 04

  And then if we go into kind of the psychobabble world, which I personally love. So it's the Greeks taking something frightening and something scary and something that is feminine and feminized and putting it on their houses, on some of their drinking ware and kind of inviting a part of it in as a way of protecting themselves. So it's, it's a very complicated thing. I think anything that just says she was just a monster and that's that. It's, it's so one dimensional.

• 28:08Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Well, and I'm really fascinated by the idea that like, for all we have, like everything you're saying about the Gorg- Gorgonian, I never know how quite to pronounce it. But like, you know, on the shield, on the aegis, like, definitely meant to be scary, like all those Gorgon faces with the tusks and the tongue out and the big eyes and all of this, like, you know, absolutely meant to be scary and, and all of this, you know, in addition to what you're saying about Apotropaic, but like,

• 28:35Liv Albert?

  for the most part, when it comes to those types of representations, like where it is explicitly a Gorgon, it's often not like, like, obviously the shield has this kind of mythological backstory of being Medusa's head. You know, once off her body, but outside of the shield, like it is, and, and even like in Homer versus Hesiod, the shield is just a Gorgon. It's just a Gorgon, like the actual connection to that scary Gorgon face being Medusa is not as explicit as people want it to be. And we also have like lots of pieces of pottery where she is depicted as incredibly human

• 29:17Liv Albert?

  with like little bits of, of like divinity, like the snakes for hair or wings. But she like is otherwise completely anthropomorphic. And I think the same for like, the Furies are like that too. Where they're like terrifying, but like, if you actually see a representation of them, they're just nice ladies with snakes in their hair and on their arms, like. You know, and maybe it's just the nature of like Greek art and stuff, but it is always fascinating to me that very, very often, if a character on a piece of pottery is labeled as Medusa versus a Gorgon, she actually looks incredibly sympathetic. From what I've seen and, and like often considerably less scary than this concept of a Gorgon, which is so explicitly tied to

• 30:03Liv Albert?

  both the just like a Gorgon and also her after her head was removed from her body. And I think that that just opens up so many interesting questions about like what they could have seen her when she was alive, because we, we have almost nothing about that. I don't know. I'm obsessed with Medusa.

• 30:19Speaker 04

  I mean, she's incredible, but I think I have to, I have to confess some of my cynicism here when it comes to the sort of more anthropomorphic depictions of her. And there's that tiny little voice in my brain that's just like sexualizing monsters and like sexualizing women, you know, where it's like taking, shifting the form from a kind of monstrous head or a monstrous body and turning it into into something you can fuck in, into something that you want to fuck. And you know, the complexities of wanting to fuck a monster. And there's all these horrible jokes about, oh yeah, Medusa will get you rock hard, all of that, blah, blah, blah. But, but you know, the gaze of Medusa was supposed to be arresting.

• 31:03Speaker 04

  And so presenting that kind of visual test where it's like, can you still pursue her? Can you still be attracted to her even when you're faced with the power of her gaze to, you know, stop you right where you're standing. So I mean, I, I, I'm, I would love to have the generosity and the like open mind to be like, ah, yes, maybe it wasn't all horrible, but just like her having like a tight little body. I'm like, oh, poor Medusa. I like,

• 31:34Speaker 04

  it's just me being cynical.

• 31:35Liv Albert?

  No, no, I think that's like, that's incredibly relevant.

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• 33:17Liv Albert?

  I think for me, like I get, I definitely, and I'm trying to remember this when I'm writing this piece, like I definitely do get too caught up in the textual sources because I'm also interested in the fact that the textual sources, for the most part, in terms of like the most ancient of like Greek ones, don't actually describe her as anything. They don't often even like use a word that that like suggests monstrosity. Like she's quite sympathetic, particularly in Hesiod, which is like funny because Hesiod's like a pretty objectively shitty guy. Not a guy, but in terms of the poetry that we attribute to Hesiod. But like, he literally is just like, she was the only mortal Gorgon, she suffered a woeful fate after Poseidon,

• 33:58Liv Albert?

  like, quote-unquote, "lay with her," but like, it's a word that is rarely used for consensual sex. And then Perseus killed her, and you know, and then she birthed children. And that's like, basically it, in terms of Hesiod. Like, the only thing he says is that the Gorgons were daughters of Phorkas and Kido, and that she was a mortal one. But like, yeah, it's just interesting to me that they, that there is also not, like, in the text sources that I'm, you know, most familiar with, there's not like, a suggestion that she should ever have been feared, or, or like, really even, like, a, a, an acknowledgement that her gaze was stony when her head was on her body, which I'm also just fascinated by. Like, and, and I think that it's just like a nature of, like, interpretation

• 34:41Liv Albert?

  of like, a broader thing, which is also what you're doing, versus like, yeah, staying maybe too in the weeds in, in the text sources that do survive. But I think there's something in between, you know, like, I don't know, I, I think that she's just so, she's just so interesting because she has, like, all these questions get opened up, and she is so kind of complex and weird. And yeah, like, I won't make this all about Medusa, even though I could.

• 35:04Speaker 04

  We, because I wanna, I wanna broaden it out even more, and then we can move on to something that's not Medusa. But I think, I mean, and this is where I, you know, I wish I knew more, and I, I would, you know, really like to know more, but, I mean, have you thought much about whether she's a sort of amalgam or reinterpretation of a Near Eastern character or goddess, or something like that? I mean, that, because that might help explain some of the, not like, conflicting, but you know, we have the visual representations of her, we have her in the text, we have all these sort of different themes and different understandings of her that we're trying to understand at the same time.

• 35:46Speaker 04

  So, like, where are the kind of roots of her and her characterization? Because, I mean, the Greeks, I'm not sure how much they invented completely off the bat themselves. I don't think it would be the biggest reach, that they were like, "Ooh, we like that." But let's like, add a little bit of pepper and salt on top, and then call it ours.

• 36:07Liv Albert?

  I mean, that's absolutely what they did for most things. Let's be honest. Um, and I think that like, I'm definitely going to look into that because I could see that being like maybe the visuals.

• 36:17Speaker 04

  And I say that because That's exactly what I was thinking.

• 36:20Liv Albert?

  Yeah, like I could see it being the visual aspects because she also the, one of the only things that we do know about her is that she lived in the West, which they do tend to give associations like, like often if, if, you know, if something is aware, a text, a source is aware of, of Eastern origins, like, or has like some kind of particular connection, like they'll often place them in that area. Like I think of, um, you know, like I just yesterday recorded, uh, just a, a straight reading of, of book two of, um, this is Roman, but Quintus of Smyrna's, uh, Fall of Troy. And, you know, it's all about Memnon, who's the king of the Ethiopians and he's a child of Dawn.

• 37:03Liv Albert?

  And so like, he literally comes from like where Dawn kind of, they figured Dawn kind of like hung out. Um, and it's, you know, like, um, Medea is the daughter of the sun. And so she is in the east where the sun comes up. And so it's interesting to me that like, that Medusa is in the West because she like, is kind of explicitly near the Hesperides. So she is, yeah, she's much more explicitly in the West, which I think Memnon, yeah, like they've got him kind of in like West Africa as well for that same reason. So yeah, I almost wonder maybe there's like a, a West African connection then too. And then maybe we have that kind of association with that location. I'm going to do some digging. That's fascinating.

• 37:40Speaker 04

  Please do. It was just something that came up in my mind. I was like, there's some, there's something here.

• 37:45Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 37:45Speaker 04

  That I think would make it all make more sense.

• 37:47Liv Albert?

  Well, I'm, I'm using this conversation to help me try to write this piece because I am hitting a wall. So thanks all around.

• 37:56Liv Albert?

  But I want to hear more about monstrous women and also fuckable women and the convergence of the two.

• 38:03Speaker 04

  It's a big topic and I would recommend, have you read, um, I think it's Anne Carson's Woman Desire?

• 38:12Liv Albert?

  No, I haven't, but I'm going to find that chapter. Thank you. Uh, now I'm obsessed with it. And that's what's going to stay in as a response to, have you read it? Um, yeah, no, I, I mean, I've just never, it's weird. I've never, I think it's just like access, right? Like I, I think because I am not in the realm of academia, all of my access to these ideas that are beyond like just the words on the page tend to come from just like what I encounter, like talking to you or talking to anyone else. Um, and I don't, I think I am a little, I mean, I know that I am generally like a little too in the weeds with the ancient sources sometimes because I do, I'm so interested in them

• 38:52Liv Albert?

  as these things that survive and like what they say, you know, literally what they say that I often have trouble kind of breaking down what might be beyond it. Not because I'm not interested, but just because like I don't, you know, like I don't have that, that the sort of the things that come with studying that in that way, uh, of that, just like, I don't know, like ideas beyond what is exactly surviving in the sources. And I, all to say, I'm fascinated, um, and thrilled to be having this conversation because like, I just, I mean, I'd never thought of Charybdis as horny and now it's so obvious. Um,

• 39:33Speaker 04

  There are so many things that you just can't unsee. Once someone pops that bubble, you're like, oh my God.

• 39:39Liv Albert?

  Well, and when it comes to sexuality and stuff, when it like in, in terms of the ancient world, like, you know, the, the people that have been providing us with this information, the, the translations and the, the like, you know, just all of it for the last couple hundred years are just like boring old white men. And so like, obviously that's changing now, thankfully, but it is still like a thing where, you know, what you're going to immediately find is going to be this like, Sanitized or or worse, like anti-woman nonsense. And so it is often kind of hard to find to to see something that like is so intentionally kind of like, I guess, unmentioned.

• 40:20Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 40:21Liv Albert?

  Because like, I can't believe that I've not heard of or thought of Skyla and Charybdis in that way before, because, yeah, it's so obvious now and I fucking love it.

• 40:29Speaker 04

  Also, what's that, what's that phrase? Oh, what's that quote? You'll know this quote, where it's like the the two worst kind of plights of men, like the sea and women. Like, like, it's right there. It's right there. I can't remember. I'm sure, I'm sure we can find the quote, but it it's right there.

• 40:48Liv Albert?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 40:50Speaker 04

  Like, the connection between them.

• 40:54Liv Albert?

  Big dangers, man. Oh, my God.

• 40:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, like, honestly, the main dangers to men. And then also, when thinking about Charybdis, I just kept thinking about vagina dentata and all of those, you know?

• 41:06Liv Albert?

  Yes.

• 41:07Speaker 04

  Like, honestly, and that's such a massive motif and symbol that, you know, isn't necessarily a hundred percent present in Greek mythology, but, but, I mean.

• 41:19Liv Albert?

  It's not not.

• 41:21Speaker 04

  They they're kind of looking like cousins to me, like, a little bit.

• 41:24Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 41:25Speaker 04

  Like, they're not twins, but like, you know?

• 41:28Liv Albert?

  Yeah. I mean, it it's not a coincidence that most of the monsters in Greek myth are women. Like, i- i- it's right there. And and, I mean, yeah, Medusa having been sexualized over the years is fascinating. I do, like, in terms of what I, like I said, what I've seen, it's been, it's been more recent, like, very much Freud level pathologizing. So I'm, you know, more curious about the ancient world, but like, I mean, Skyla and Charybdis, Circe being a temptress, Medea being a temptress, and those aren't even like the monsters, the fact that the Furies are women, the fact that even the Fates are women, feels like monstrous in a different way, like, that like, oh, like, the fate of men is determined

• 42:13Liv Albert?

  by women, like, that's another horror kind of in itself. Well, I think it's it's.

• 42:19Speaker 04

  I good. I hope it haunts you. And I say that with all the love in my heart. I hope it haunts you in the way that it haunts me.

• 42:25Liv Albert?

  It will, it will.

• 42:26Speaker 04

  Excellent. Excellent. Um, I think with a lot of sort of female monstrosity, and this is just another um book recommendation for you, but The Monstrous Feminine by Barbara Creed is another really good one. Um, but I think when we look at all of that and all of just sort of the examples you just listed, and even if we add sort of Helen of Troy, who looks out at the sort of field of battle and compares it to a sort of farm, and then we, you know, we're thinking about the earth and the consumption of the earth and the earth eating all these dead bodies. I think with female monstrosity, it's such an interesting kind of mirror or reflection of the female body's biological productive power.

• 43:10Speaker 04

  And so you have women being the source of life, and then how do you reconcile that with patriarchal power? When women are the ones that are giving you children, women are the ones that are sort of knowing and being able to determine paternity. And then there's this really interesting kind of externalization of that reality into female monstrosity. And you're sort of just watching the ancient Greeks kind of battle with it intellectually, because it's so irreconcilable with their power structure.

• 43:41Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Well, I mean, there's a reason why they acknowledge that the world started with a woman and then she was immediately subjugated by a man. Immediately. A man she created. Like, but then also makes me think of, um, and I always forget what source this actually comes from, but there's that that notion that the Trojan War took place because Gaia was like too, there was too much pressure on her and so they needed like a cataclysmic war.

• 44:15Speaker 04

  I know what you're talking about, but I can't remember where it comes from either. It was like she was too full or whatever, right?

• 44:19Liv Albert?

  Yeah, exactly. Like there were two, she, it was too heavy on top of her, the number of humans that existed. And so they needed. That kind of like that such a deadly war to like make it better.

• 44:32Speaker 04

  That is just such a messed up premise.

• 44:34Liv Albert?

  Yeah, exactly. Like it's another, it's like demonizing the woman, right? Like, like, well, the truth, they, they haven't blamed the Trojan War on another woman enough. So like, let's add one. Like, it's not enough that it's fully Helen's fault, despite the fact that she had absolutely no agency in the whole thing. But let's also make it about Gaia.

• 44:58Speaker 04

  God.

• 45:01Speaker 04

  I don't even know what to say to that. That's just made me so sad.

• 45:06Liv Albert?

  I mean, it's why I have a career. So at least there's that. Talking about how demonized women are for absolutely no reason in the ancient world, well, in ancient Greece, very specifically. I mean, and it hasn't gone away. It makes me think there's a, I'm sure I've mentioned this on the show before, but like, I, one of the first books of myth that I picked up when I started the show, like, you know, I, I was like years out of my degree and I really hadn't done any research for a long time. Also, I did my degree, like, this is wild how fast things change, but like, we really didn't get to use Google a lot.

• 45:48Liv Albert?

  Um, because it was not early internet, obviously, but it was still a long time ago. And like, so I just feel like I didn't have a great grasp on like how to research and stuff when I picked up the podcast. And so I just like picked up a book that I found because it was just called The Greek Myths. And it, it, at the time, I didn't even really notice it, which is funny because I was using it to start my feminist podcast about Greek myth, but like, there, there are parts in this book that was published in like 2005. Um, that are like some of the most horrifically misogynist stuff I've ever read. Like, like complete departures from the ancient sources i- in order to demonize both Medusa and Pandora. Those are the ones I always remember, like.

• 46:32Liv Albert?

  It's wild, like as if it's like at one point, this guy, Robin Waterfield, who is credited on the cover and then the inside cover, it's acknowledged that his wife helped him write it, but she's not on the cover. Um, and in his section on Medusa, retelling the story, like one, not only does he, in this book called The Greek Myths, does he use Ovid's story without acknowledging that it is not a Greek myth? But he also, in addition to using Ovid's, which like has its own problems, he introduces the idea that that um,

• 47:10Liv Albert?

  that that Athena was angry that Medusa was prettier than her, or that Medusa bragged about being prettier than her.

• 47:18Speaker 04

  Oh, my God.

• 47:19Liv Albert?

  Yeah, exactly. Like, you're shocked faces.

• 47:21Speaker 04

  Where is that?

• 47:23Liv Albert?

  Exactly. It has absolutely no basis in the ancient sources, none. And it's just like this invention to make women even worse. Like, this idea that like, oh, well, in order for Athena to want to curse her, she would have had to say that she was prettier because ladies care whether another girl is prettier than them. Like,

• 47:44Speaker 04

  But also, this just drives me triple insane because it's like if you reduce the value of women to what they look like, and then you get upset when they have feelings about what they look like, like,

• 47:56Liv Albert?

  Right?

• 47:57Speaker 04

  What is expected? What is expected here?

• 48:00Liv Albert?

  I really wonder why women ever worry about whether they're pretty compared to other women. Like, it's not coming naturally. Like, you know, as somebody who was a teen, like 14 in 2002, I think is like an incredibly important date milestone. Like, just the early 2000s and the the pressure placed on young women at that time when Kate Moss is out there saying nothing tastes as good as pretty feels like, you know, this, this stuff that we get blamed for, like, it's just. Ah, anyway.

• 48:35Liv Albert?

  Um, I think a lot about how broken I still am from just like being a teenager in the early 2000s.

• 48:43Speaker 04

  We had the whole thigh gap thing run through my high school when I was 16. That was fun.

• 48:47Liv Albert?

  Right. Yeah, that's our little, yeah, that's our age gap, uh, the thigh gap. And I do not envy you because I was old enough at that time. I was still definitely still influenced. But like, yeah, I mean, we, we just like, it was wild and like the fat shaming on every single TV show that we had to watch. Like, there was just no way to get out of it, to get out of hating your body. Like, you're literally raised from the time that you're like eight years old to hate multiple things about your body.

• 49:16Speaker 04

  Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

• 49:18Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Anyway, I respect all the women who have been able to get over it, but I am still trying and not going great.

• 49:23Speaker 04

  Most women are in the trenches with it.

• 49:26Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Oh, fucking fascinating. Anyway, oh my gosh. I've just like, I mean, I think a lot about the fact that, that the ancient Greeks did turn women into monsters. But I haven't thought about the sexuality involved.

• 49:40Speaker 04

  Well, I think just to, just to speak about an earlier point you mentioned, which is, you know, when it comes to translation and when it comes to so many of the translations being, you know, as horrific and horrible as they are. It's like that, on the one hand, is so unequivocally true and needs to be addressed. But I think as well, what I find, and I'm sure you, you know, really find this too. When you're dealing with the ancient sources and when we're in the very privileged position of being able to engage with the literature and the visuals, you know, that you do have to have an awareness, I think, of not projecting.

• 50:21Speaker 04

  I think we joked about rosy colored glasses before, where it's, you know, I want to think it was this gorgeous utopia, but you also have to hold space for the reality. It was a patriarchal society, you know, we know enough. We know enough to know that women by and large were not having a great time. And so it's like, how do you kind of tread that line between reclamation and kind of looking at this stuff with a new, more empowering lens whilst also not dismissing what we know of what was happening to these women? And I mean, and that's so difficult, right?

• 50:57Liv Albert?

  Oh yeah, I mean, it's just so many things at once. Because like I

• 51:02Speaker 04

  It's all the complexities, all of them.

• 51:03Liv Albert?

  Yeah, and I mean, it is what I love about looking at the ancient world. And what I particularly love about like the point that my show is at now in speaking about this stuff like the the ability I have now to talk about the context that I didn't have before when I was just like a random woman picking up a book at a bookstore without any idea like, you know, what I guess really goes into men writing these myths? And and by that, I mean, like rewriting the myths because the book that that I find to be so egregious is one of those ones where you know, like, it's just called the Greek myths because a man went and like took down notes on the sources and then rewrote them. I mean,

• 51:43Liv Albert?

  granted, he's doing what I'm doing, but I'm really open about how fucking biased I'm being and the men are not, you know, and and and until you kind of realize what goes into the the retelling of these kinds of stories, like you really don't know that what you're getting is is nonsense compared to the ancient sources, but then at the same time, it lacks this context of like it's wild because it's like, I feel like the the the modern pieces you pick up written by men tend to be in obviously, like, you know, stuff in the last like five years and certain men, obviously, it's not the case, but like by and large. Like, you you think that it's going to be worse and then it is, but then at the same time, like, the context

• 52:25Liv Albert?

  then turns around and it's like, well, the context, though, is the women also had a shit time, but the myths still weren't quite as bad as this modern man is making them out to be. But we have to keep in mind that, like, you know, the, I mean, especially when we're talking about Athens, like, women had little to no freedom or agency at all. And I don't know. I mean, it's just like kind of constant sort of reminders of all of the different bits and pieces going into this stuff. But I also like to think about like the stories that the women might have been telling amongst themselves, or, you know, I like to joke a lot about all the sex they probably were having with each other because the men didn't consider it sex and so weren't worried that, you know.

• 53:04Speaker 04

  It was all chill.

• 53:05Liv Albert?

  Yeah, exactly. Like, you know, they were just like keeping their wives locked up all together in a house all day, not letting them do, you know, anything outside of it like you think they're not going to find ways of having fun? Like, these women.

• 53:18Speaker 04

  I mean, you've seen all those pots of women with bread dildos. Do you know the ones I'm talking about?

• 53:24Liv Albert?

  I mean, also, you have like the, the, um, elisbos, right? That's like the ancient word for dildo. Ancient Greek word.

• 53:31Speaker 04

  Elisbos?

• 53:32Liv Albert?

  Elis. Elisbos. It's like O L I S B O S. If you just Google it, I know Google just says dildo real big. Um, but I also did learn it from Assassin's Creed Odyssey. I will clarify.

• 53:47Speaker 04

  That makes me so happy.

• 53:48Liv Albert?

  You do go get a dildo that Alkabiyadi has left in somebody's house.

• 53:53Speaker 04

  At least it was in someone's house and not in someone.

• 53:56Liv Albert?

  Right? True, no, exactly. You don't have to go pull it out of somebody. You can tell communities, you never know.

• 54:03Speaker 04

  What's that? What's that medieval myth or whatever it is about the sword? Okay, wait, I digress. I digress, I digress.

• 54:10Liv Albert?

  I always digress, that's the point. Uh, yeah, no.

• 54:14Speaker 04

  No, really. Oh, no, I was just thinking about, um, your point on translation. And I think, and this being completely frank with you, I don't think I a hundred percent have a grip on this. And I've been studying this stuff for seven years, but I think something that's so hard to grasp is that the myths themselves are being received and massaged and adapted over hundreds and hundreds of years. And that is something that does not get kind of foregrounded in the way that I think it needs to. Because we're talking about, okay, the ancient stuff is over here and then the modern dudes are over here. And it's like, well, actually, the ancient stuff, there was a whole bunch going on then

• 54:55Speaker 04

  when it comes to refracting and massaging these myths for different kind of cultural moments and different purposes. And that is such an important thing to understand, like how these myths were functioning over, you know, you can't just kind of point to ancient Greece and be like, that was all one thing. It happened over three years, whatever. It's like, that's so far from the case and still it like. Honestly, it kind of breaks my brain a little bit whenever I try and like contemplate it too much, but I feel like it's important to note when it comes to translation and different versions of mythology.

• 55:28Liv Albert?

  Yeah, no, it's I'm so glad you brought that up because I've been I in the last couple of years, I've I've I know that I've become annoying in the way that I bring that up. I bring that up in like almost every episode, though, because I also like I can't guarantee that people have been listening to all of them. They just might jump in and I'm like, well, then I have to remind you that we are talking like minimum 800 years in between all of these stories. And and when you just come at this from this casual viewpoint, yeah, you are you see ancient Greece as a concept. You see Greek myth as a concept, as if there is this like canon of stories and everything is decided.

• 56:06Speaker 04

  I thought there was a canon for so long.

• 56:08Liv Albert?

  People will use the word canon.

• 56:09Speaker 04

  I thought I was like, there's one version of every myth. There was one version of every myth and everyone agreed and it was super chill and easy and straightforward. Are you glad that it wasn't you this time?

• 56:20Liv Albert?

  Thrilled and that you sounded just as like excited and annoyed.

• 56:26Speaker 04

  It is both. It is always both.

• 56:29Liv Albert?

  It is so both. And I think that, yeah, like unless you are deep in this stuff, like you're not getting that context. And it's so important.

• 56:38Speaker 04

  And also, again, being like very candid with you, just because you're deep in it doesn't mean it's the easiest thing to understand or comprehend or hold in your mind. It is so difficult.

• 56:49Liv Albert?

  All I ever do is talk about how confusing and fascinating it is like, yeah, because it's it's both all the time. And I love it.

• 56:56Speaker 04

  All of the times.

• 56:58Liv Albert?

  Truly.

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• 58:35Liv Albert?

  I mean, okay, but I really, I really want to know more about the like, the idea you mentioned that they feared women's sexual appetites.

• 58:46Liv Albert?

  I want to know more about this so bad.

• 58:50Speaker 04

  So bad, so bad. Um, so fear, I mean, it's such a big topic, right? Like fear of female sexuality. I'm like, oh, can we, can we have three hours? Are you wanting to kind of talk about, I mean, I assume mythology and like maybe visual. I'm just trying to, I'm trying to pick some points here because it's such a.

• 59:12Liv Albert?

  I mean, I don't, I don't care necessarily to stick to mythology. I'm just fascinated by the, the idea, but like, you know, if you have, like, I, I mean, I guess I always just like understood that it would have been a thing, but I've just never thought about like evidence for it, other than, you know, just the general. Distaste they seem to have for women.

• 59:32Speaker 04

  Um.

• 59:34Liv Albert?

  I mean.

• 59:34Speaker 04

  But yeah, like.

• 59:35Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 59:35Speaker 04

  There's a strong distaste, right? But I think there's also a huge amount of distrust.

• 59:42Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 59:42Speaker 04

  Of women. And I think that, and this is a very sort of one dimensional view of it, but what I have read over the years is that, you know, patrilineal inheritance, when you can't be a hundred percent sure of, you know, the paternity of your kid. That gonna be a problem, like that is.

• 1:00:05Liv Albert?

  Enter.

• 1:00:05Speaker 04

  Issue, like, right?

• 1:00:07Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:08Speaker 04

  Zeus, literally, unfortunately, in most cases. So harrowing. Um, and so there's this, there's this fear of how the female body can obscure paternity, right? Like, they could have your, like, a woman could have your brother's kid or, you know, a random neighbor's kid or whatever, and probably there would be no way of you knowing. And so if your entire society is built on, you know, you will have sons and it will all be lovely and they will inherit your house and da, da, da, da, da. But your wife could be messing around on you and you almost certainly have no way of knowing. So how do you

• 1:00:50Speaker 04

  within society find a way to sort of curtail that or address that? And it's like, just, you know, beat the shit out of them culturally when it comes to their sexual expression and just like put them in their tiny little boxes and hide them away. All of that, like, there was this huge societal pressure for the restriction of female sexuality. And I mean, for another bit of evidence, you have the separation between the wife and the hetaira, right? Like, the hetaira are the fun, drunk ones who will, you know, take part in orgies with you and your boyfriends at the symposium.

• 1:01:30Speaker 04

  But your wife is at home looking after the grain and the kids and the whatever. And there's so much sort of separation in the literature as far as how you think of, you know, ancient sex workers versus ancient wives. They were constituted and characterized completely differently. So there's little room left for the kind of eroticism of the wife. And then if we take it back to like Helen of Troy or something, it's like, we see what happens when. A wifely person, or you know, the figure of a wife expresses their sexuality, you know, or even just is an object of sexual desire. Like, it's seen to be a really dangerous, dangerous

• 1:02:12Speaker 04

  thing. It's... I feel like I just threw such random, broad examples at you.

• 1:02:19Liv Albert?

  No, I love it so much. I'm literally taking notes. I've just written down obscuring paternity. It's actually, it's a great bank form, but apparently I'm turning into a notepad.

• 1:02:32Liv Albert?

  No, I just, eh, yeah, it's, it also made me think of, um, I'm trying to remember like the exact details, but I know that in Sparta, they kind of, for a time at least, like handled this fear of paternity by being like, women can have kids with more than one man, because they also were so obsessed with keeping it Spartan and like, keeping their bloodlines pure.

• 1:02:57Speaker 04

  Oh, sounds very Targaryen. I'm rewatching Game of Thrones at the moment.

• 1:03:00Liv Albert?

  I mean, Targaryens are Spartans, let's be honest. Actually, like, I feel like that, I feel like that works in ways. Um, but like, no, and I, I've definitely, I want to say I've thought about, um, this idea of, of enter Zeus, of, of like, is the stories of, of the gods broadly fathering children by mortal women, like, that is just a, uh, um, it, it's like exemplifying, there's a better word, that's not it.

• 1:03:36Speaker 04

  That's a good word.

• 1:03:37Liv Albert?

  It is, but not for what I want. But basically, it's just like, it's evidence for this fear, right? It's like, well, you know, like, i- if you have to worry whether the child is yours, then at least you can think that maybe if it's not, then it, it, it's Zeus's, you know, like-

• 1:03:55Speaker 04

  Right. So it gives you like a divine out.

• 1:03:58Liv Albert?

  Exactly, exactly, like-

• 1:04:01Liv Albert?

  You know, if this is like a big fear of theirs, then of course they're going to introduce these stories that explain that happening, but in a way that takes the fault away from the man. You know, like, not that it's, you know, a man's fault broadly, but like, it's clearly their fear, when I imagine it's not a thing that's like happening all that often. Like, but of course they're going to be afraid of it because they don't control that. And if you control everything, then the one thing you can't control becomes this like enormous boogeyman.

• 1:04:37Speaker 04

  To your point about that boogeyman, I would say that I think there might actually be another boogeyman in this instance. So it's not only about sort of paternity and issues of paternity. I think it might also be about the way female sexuality and feminine sexuality can prompt transgressive action on the part of the man. So they're worried about what they'll do and their kind of loss of agency and not being in full control of themselves and starting a war or, you know, sleeping with someone they shouldn't, or any of the other things that are so richly demonstrated in all of the mythology.

• 1:05:18Speaker 04

  And so if you have that kind of fear of there's this certain part of life and there's certain, this certain aspect of the woman and the female body and feminine erotic power, how do we deal with it? Because it poses this threat to civilization and stable order and family structure and political order and everything, everything, everything. What do we do? Oh, maybe we channel some of it into these wild feminized hungry monsters that are just eating everyone.

• 1:05:52Speaker 04

  It sounded unhinged when I said it, but I'm standing by it.

• 1:05:56Liv Albert?

  No, but I mean, like, yes, like, but I mean, they're all, they're almost all women. Like Typhon is an interesting example, but I think he pretty openly embodies like natural disasters. So the idea that like, that all the monsters are either like natural disasters or women is like, kind of amazing, because even the gigantomachy like accounts for volcanoes. And so it's like literally any of the big bad, you know, divine kind of, of fears. They are, if they're men, trying to think of a male.

• 1:06:36Speaker 04

  Uh, Minotaur, Minotaur, that's the only one I've got.

• 1:06:38Liv Albert?

  Right, okay, but, but he doesn't actually count because he embodies the fear of paternity.

• 1:06:46Speaker 04

  So like, yeah, so like.

• 1:06:48Speaker 04

  See, the rabbit hole just gets deeper and so, and it's also in the myths, what do you do with monsters? You defeat them, you overpower them. It is something that gets set up in the myths as something that can be thwarted or defeated. So you can defeat the temptation of the female body. You can defeat the monstrous feminine in all of this mythology. So all these lovely men can just sleep at night, knowing that it's all gonna be okay.

• 1:07:14Liv Albert?

  Yeah. I mean, okay, talking about the, the paternity stuff, like, uh, it leads me to just think of all the weirdest ways that Zeus impregnated. Um, right, like, you know, at first I thought of the swan.

• 1:07:28Speaker 04

  Every time I look at a swan, every time I look at a swan, I get upset. Every single time.

• 1:07:33Liv Albert?

  Well, yeah, the, the swan's the first thought, but then, then I went to Zeus and Danae. You know, Perseus is mom, right? Shower of gold and like, obviously, um, you know, golden shower is a different context now. That's, but what's really happening here, cause like.

• 1:07:53Liv Albert?

  You know, the, the context for that story is that she's like locked in a tower because her father is worried. You know, there's an oracle that says her baby will defeat him. So she's locked away so that she cannot have a child and Zeus's form that he takes is this like gold falling from the ceiling and just going straight up her vag, you know, like.

• 1:08:18Liv Albert?

  It, I like to think of it, it's like, it, it feels like it has to be like a, like a real, like a, like a mood, like, like it has to be embodied in some kind of way. I don't know. I think, I think a lot about, uh, the shower of gold. Um, but how that like, you know, this, this thing that is like, it sounds more like a fa- like a, a fatherly fear in this patriarchal world of their daughter getting impregnated by some strange man. Um, you know, it's like so regularly happening. Um, but it's possible. You know, that, that like it embodies that, but then it's like, oh, but you know, even if that happened, well, I guess it's not a great thing for a Chrystia, but like, you know, it's Perseus in the end, this baby and he, and he still tries to, I, I mean, now I'm trying to think of,

• 1:09:03Liv Albert?

  basically I'm just like thinking aloud, uh, with you right now. Cause now I'm like, okay, well, you know, it's, he's Perseus. So really ultimately he's a good thing, but like he does defeat a Chrystia and so I'm just, you know, I feel like there's so many, there's layers to this fear. Because sometimes it's obvious what they're fearing.

• 1:09:20Speaker 04

  Well, and then in that instance, right, isn't it the fear of violating the like virginal female? Because what that means for the social and financial standing of the family.

• 1:09:30Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:31Speaker 04

  Like.

• 1:09:32Liv Albert?

  Yeah, but then it's interesting because it's like, it works out. So that, that's where my question mark brain is going, you know, like obviously the story of Perseus is good for Perseus and Danae in the end. So it was just interesting to me because it's like, well, is it providing a moral that then is like contradictory to this, this idea of being afraid for your daughter's virginity, you know? It's just, I don't know. It's interesting.

• 1:09:57Speaker 04

  Or maybe is it like ultimately affirming it or kind of giving some comfort? Like just like a bit of a nice myth.

• 1:10:04Liv Albert?

  Right.

• 1:10:04Speaker 04

  Just like some, sometimes it works out.

• 1:10:08Liv Albert?

  It could be you, probably won't.

• 1:10:10Speaker 04

  Probably won't, but maybe.

• 1:10:12Liv Albert?

  I mean, I just, there's just so many layers. Like, I do. People often ask me, like, to kind of, I guess, put myself into the character and like, answer questions like, what would they feel? Or what would they think? And I, I fail at that always, just miserably, because I am, I'm far too interested in the story itself and the purpose behind it. And I think this is great evidence for that. Like, this is what I want to talk about is like, but what's the story and what does it mean? Not the characters, like, I love the characters, but I don't feel the need to, like, be in their brains.

• 1:10:44Speaker 04

  But I also think you show an awareness of how difficult it is to ever get to anywhere remotely close to being in their brains.

• 1:10:51Liv Albert?

  Yeah, because we don't know anything.

• 1:10:53Speaker 04

  No, and that's such a difficult thing. You know, there are so many sort of feminist retellings of Greek myths now that are doing exactly that, right? They're, you know, giving voices, they're providing insight and all of that. But if you're trying to do that entirely based on the ancient sources, like, you need, you're fucked. You need a hell of a lot of imagination and creative license to begin to do that. It's, you know, it's a very appealing thing, but

• 1:11:22Speaker 04

  is it necessarily possible if you actually tie yourself to the ancient source material? Uh, I don't know. Again, I want to believe it's true, but I'm like, oh. Especially when every, almost every source, like two, are coming from men.

• 1:11:40Liv Albert?

  Well, yeah, yeah. No, and I, yeah, it's interesting because I, it is, it's interesting for me talking to, to authors and stuff sometimes, because like, I understand that they have a version in their head of this character, because you have to, you create a version. But that inherently untethers it from the ancient sources, and that's fine.

• 1:12:01Speaker 04

  That's the perfect verb choice, like untethers it. That's, that's exactly what it is, right? Like, you're lopping off some of what anchors you. It's, that's the perfect word for it.

• 1:12:12Liv Albert?

  Yeah, you, you have to separate it. You have to make it a different thing. And I think, you know, like, that if, if you are writing this stuff and trying to pretend, or, or if you believe that, that you are keeping true to the characters, like, I think you're doing a disservice to yourself and the book. Like, I do think you have to separate that. Yeah. Oh, this is sad. And maybe it's a little bit more than what we need time wise. But I realized when we first talked about like how I barely remembered, other than I just knew I wanted to talk to you about it on the show. But you were, you were just like, just mentioned Medea and we'll go. And I realize we, we've not even gone through.

• 1:12:56Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, we haven't spoken about Medea and we haven't spoken about Euripides back as far as fear of the female and female sexuality and female monstrosity. And if we're talking about the like, kind of turning women into monsters because of their biological power, I mean, ding ding ding Medea, who not only murders a whole bunch of people, she murders her children. So you have the complete arresting of feminine biological power. And that is why she is the most hated and the biggest monster. And it is just, and then I love that she just gets to ride off in a chariot. And I don't care what anyone says. I know a canon isn't real, but her riding off on a chariot is canon to me.

• 1:13:35Liv Albert?

  Well, I mean, it's, it is just as, it, it, it has the exact same level of legitimacy as her killing her children. Because both were invented by Euripides. So. I know.

• 1:13:50Speaker 04

  That's so true.

• 1:13:51Liv Albert?

  Which it was gonna, I was gonna bring that up anyway, because I'm fascinated by the idea that, and I mean, it could, it could be a source that we're just, that we've lost. Like, it could be that Euripides did not invent that detail. That's very possible. Same with the dragon chariot, though. Um, but like, yeah, the idea that like, before Euripides, we didn't necessarily have this, this idea that she killed her children. I think that's really interesting. And also like, is another good connection to the back guy because, I mean, I could talk about Euripides for hours, so I will try not to, but like, I like to think of, of like, kind of why he would put that stuff in because of all the playwrights I know. Like, and I say this with confidence, despite the fact that I'll never talk to him, but I know that he was interested in women as people. And as like, complex

• 1:14:36Liv Albert?

  and sympathetic and very real people, though, like flawed people. Um, but yeah, I kind of, I love that he kind of introduced that idea.

• 1:14:47Liv Albert?

  Because I think it adds something more.

• 1:14:49Speaker 04

  I think it definitely adds something more and like I, do you, do you think that him, you know, him being Euripides? Um, shout out. Um, do you think Euripides? I don't, I know, I, I love him so much. Um, but do you think him adding that detail? I mean, considering that women were so often wildly reduced to their ability to create children and, you know, motherhood was the whole thing. That was their entire sort of source of value and all of that. And so it, by Euripides adding that detail, it kind of is this a horrific, monstrous assertion of

• 1:15:31Speaker 04

  individual agency of a woman, but that's what it is. It's like her own feelings of rage and sexual jealousy and violation and betrayal are big enough and strong enough that they actually supersede her role as mother. And that is something we almost never see. The only other myth that's jumping to mind is it, um, Philo, Philomela and, or no, Prochny.

• 1:15:56Liv Albert?

  Oh, yeah. That's the two of them. Yeah.

• 1:15:59Speaker 04

  Yes, okay.

• 1:16:00Liv Albert?

  So you've got both names.

• 1:16:02Speaker 04

  Okay, good. That makes me. I was, I was like, am I about to say like Thumbelina on the show? That doesn't, that's not correct.

• 1:16:10Liv Albert?

  The, eh, no, and I mean, yeah, that's, yeah, they're another good connection, but they're interesting too, because they also really only survive in Ovid, which is sort of like its own level of like interest. Um, like in terms of those details, but I absolutely do think, and now you've made me think it even more. I won't pretend that this was all my idea before you said all of that. But I've always seen,

• 1:16:34Liv Albert?

  like I've, I've definitely spent a number of episodes on the show, having to explain that I'm not saying that it's okay that she killed her children, just that.

• 1:16:42Speaker 04

  No one is saying that. No one is saying that. Let's be really clear. We're not endorsing infanticide.

• 1:16:47Liv Albert?

  No.

• 1:16:48Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:16:49Liv Albert?

  But.

• 1:16:53Liv Albert?

  Um, no, but like, I do think that it is incredibly interesting because you can see that there is like an intention behind it because he makes her sympathetic while she's doing it. Like, you, you understand her, you don't agree with her, but you understand why she feels like this is the thing she has to do. And that's what I find to be so fucking interesting about that play, but also just about Euripides broadly, because I think that argument, like, it, it completely, it aligns with my thoughts on him and what I said earlier, which is just that, like, he makes women into people, flawed people,

• 1:17:34Liv Albert?

  complex people, people who have thought processes that, like, we won't, not everyone would agree with, and maybe it's bad to kill your kids. Um, like, but at the same time, he, he's not introducing a villain in Medea. He's not introducing a boogeyman. He is introducing a, an interesting, complex woman who makes a horrific decision. But like, yeah, he, he doesn't make her this, like, caricature of an angry woman. I think that she has become that in pop culture in a lot of ways since then. Like, before I really knew the, the play, all I'd ever known is like, there's a woman in Medea who killed her kids. And

• 1:18:15Liv Albert?

  you think, but like, I even feel like, oh, I wish I could tell you what this is from. But there's definitely like a quote that lives in my head from a movie or something from the early 2000s where it's like she pulled a Medea. And it was like, basically the idea of her going crazy. Like, I think she became aligned with this idea of going crazy and killing her kids, when in fact, the play makes very clear that she is in her right and rational mind, and she is making this decision. And that's so much more interesting than this, like, caricature of a woman who goes mad and kills her children because it's the only way that women could do that, you know?

• 1:18:52Speaker 04

  Well, I think there's, you know, there might even be more kind of tension in that because, uh, exactly, like in Euripides particularly.

• 1:19:02Speaker 04

  Uh, every single, you know, line that she delivers is so considered and it's so thoughtful. And so, ev- and you know, she's wailing offstage and it's all this. She is, she is very emotional. She's in a lot of, you know, emotional pain. From everything that's happening and everything that's being done to her. But you're exactly right in pointing out that this doesn't, this isn't. What she does is a very considered act or, you know, a considered set of actions. And I think, you know, she is acting. You know, from a place of emotional pain, but not from a place of temporary insanity, because planning goes into.

• 1:19:41Speaker 04

  Every step of it. And I read this, um, this article a few years ago, which I found really fascinating. Which was all about how Medea is kind of working within and drawing from this kind of outdated mode of. Homeric honor that, so, and it not only like doesn't have a place necessarily in, you know, the time. That Euripides was writing. So that's one kind of bit of separation, but it absolutely is not for women. You know, that's not something for her to grab a hold of and then use, but in so much of the language she's talking about, she is Achilles. Her honor has been violated and she is going to rain down fury. And so then when you're looking at.

• 1:20:26Speaker 04

  The characterization of Medea and in kind of one hand, you hold the. Sexual jealousy and the betrayal of the marriage bed and that, you know, which is in there. And then in the other hand, you have this kind of. She's this wounded, proud hero that, you know, wants justice and wants balance. And that. Especially when you look at the language. And again, I will send you this article because it's such an awesome take on her that. You know, there's so much more richness in that interpretation rather than, oh, she went batshit. It's like, no, no, no, no, she didn't. She is Achilles. In the tent, she is Achilles dragging Hector's body around the wall of Troy, like.

• 1:21:08Liv Albert?

  Just gonna say that one, like, yeah.

• 1:21:10Speaker 04

  Medea, like, that is so much more true to Euripides and true to, you know. All of the versions of her story. It seems like, and again, we have a woman being. Reduced and hugely oversimplified where when you look a bit deeper, there's something so much more interesting going on.

• 1:21:30Liv Albert?

  Mm hmm. Ugh. I could talk about Medea for hours. Uh, like. And Euripides, he's just so interesting.

• 1:21:41Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, should we talk about the back eye? Do we have time?

• 1:21:44Liv Albert?

  Yes, please. No, please, please. I want to talk about the back eye. Like.

• 1:21:48Speaker 04

  Oh, I mean, we have sex, we have sexuality, we have Pentheus in all kinds of situations when it comes to his desire. We have the kind of bestial, hypersexual, animalistic, monstrous women, you know, ripping animals apart and ripping people apart on the hills. Like, all of that, it, it, it's just right there. It's just sensational.

• 1:22:11Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:11Speaker 04

  It's like, yes, you should all be scared of women because when they get drunk, they're gonna rip your arm off.

• 1:22:16Liv Albert?

  All of that, and I also think it's interesting that Dionysus is quite feminized. Like, you know.

• 1:22:25Liv Albert?

  Like, he, he's, I mean, I know he's like very a he, but he's dressed like a manad, isn't he? Or, or like, yeah, like.

• 1:22:32Speaker 04

  Doesn't he dress as a manad and then Pentheus is like, oh, oh.

• 1:22:37Liv Albert?

  Yes, kind of. And then also he has Pentheus dressed as a manad to be torn up, right? So like, like I, I had a conversation years ago now on the show about like a, a non-binary reading of Dionysus in Back Eye. But it also included, this was with Emma Polly, and they had really interesting things to say from like a more dramatizing. Like, a- aspect of it, like they're a dramaturg and I think a translator as well. So like, just kind of everything going on there. But like, the argument was basically that both Dionysus and Pentheus have these moments where they can be pretty easily read as non-binary. And I think, and it's really interesting because like Dionysus appears like that pretty openly, I think, in the play.

• 1:23:22Liv Albert?

  But there are these moments where you can kind of, if you're looking for it, like, see Pentheus, like, recognizing that in Dionysus and being really interested in it. And then that kind of transitions directly into Pentheus, you know, dressing as a woman to be torn apart. But I, I mean, yeah, there's, there's so many layers in the back eye, like the fact that.

• 1:23:42Speaker 04

  And then there's like a appeal of transgression and there's a appeal of all of that. And then we're back to female monsters where it's like that which is simultaneously seductive and terrifying. That's, that's the whole thing in my mind.

• 1:23:57Liv Albert?

  Well, and in that case, too, they're your family members, which is like adding a whole other level. Like, yes, ladies are monsters, but like, even when they're your mom and your aunts.

• 1:24:08Speaker 04

  But also, if we want to get real psychoanalytical and weird with it, maybe especially when they're your mom. I don't know. I don't know.

• 1:24:17Liv Albert?

  I mean.

• 1:24:18Speaker 04

  Like, the unpayable biological debt to the mother is something that patriarchy finds difficult to deal with.

• 1:24:27Liv Albert?

  Ooh. I mean, it's also, like, not, I mean, it's, I don't want to say coincidence, because I don't think it's either a coincidence or not one, but like, it is relevant that this is happening in the city.

• 1:24:43Speaker 04

  It is noteworthy.

• 1:24:44Liv Albert?

  Yes. That this is happening in the city that will go on to house Oedipus and Jocasta, like, just another few generations down the line, like. And of course, like, when it comes to the plays, like, there is something to be said for the fact that these are Athenians intentionally demonizing Thebes, but at the core, Thebes is the location of these myths, regardless of whether they appeared in a play. Um, so I just think it's interesting, like, Thebes is, I don't know, I have a soft spot for Thebes because I am deeply obsessed with Cadmus and Harmonia, and the fact that, like, they are both incredibly important and, like, really lacking in a lot of detail, and, like, there, there's a lot of really,

• 1:25:28Liv Albert?

  really interesting things about them that I'll never stop thinking about. But, like, the fact that this is, like, partially their family line is always really intrigued me, too. But this idea of, like, the unpayable debt to the mother, like, I've never, I don't think a lot about procreation, because I hate children, and the idea of pregnancy, I think, is utterly revolting.

• 1:25:50Speaker 04

  That's so valid.

• 1:25:50Liv Albert?

  But thinking about it this way is very interesting.

• 1:25:57Speaker 04

  I just, I think for me, it's, it's something that comes up in a lot of psychoanalysis, especially like later psychoanalysis and like, I'm not a huge fan of Freud, but I'm a fan of some people that came like thirty years later and some women that came thirty years later and looked at some of this stuff. And so there's this very spicy take on, um.

• 1:26:24Speaker 04

  I don't, I don't know if you'll find this as fascinating as I do, but, um. Someone wrote an article on the abject maternal in Aeschylus' Agamemnon. And it was all about Clytemnestra and the kind of reversal of the sex act when she penetrates Agamemnon to murder him. And then the red blood spurts up on her and like fertilizes her. And I think that's where I was telling you about the word Ganos.

• 1:26:49Liv Albert?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:26:50Speaker 04

  All those, all those weeks ago, but then they, they focused on the image of the red rugs drawing Agamemnon back into his home. And they said it was like some sort of perverted umbilical cord, like dragging him back to a tomb. And so it's the whole womb to tomb thing. It's really cuckoo. I know it's really cuckoo. I hold my hands up. But, I mean, it, yeah.

• 1:27:18Liv Albert?

  It's interesting.

• 1:27:19Speaker 04

  It's interesting. I'm not sure that like a hundred percent holds up, but those kind of ideas of the female body and the connections drawn between the female body and the oikos or the household and how the household was kind of a site of a lot of these dangers and these dangers are embodied in the women that lurk within the house.

• 1:27:42Speaker 04

  It intrigues me.

• 1:27:44Liv Albert?

  I mean, yeah, no, same. I definitely find that super interesting, but I also just immediately makes me think like, that really gives a whole new meaning to the fact that we get the idea of rolling out the red carpet from that play.

• 1:28:00Speaker 04

  Is that where we get it from?

• 1:28:02Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:03Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 1:28:05Liv Albert?

  Yeah, like it's already a fucked up phrase by the fact that the idea of rolling out the red carpet, that phrase fully comes originally from Agamemnon being welcomed home to his death.

• 1:28:20Speaker 04

  Oh, my god.

• 1:28:22Liv Albert?

  Yeah, I know. I've told that to other people and it's a really lovely revelation.

• 1:28:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:28:27Liv Albert?

  Um, because it is.

• 1:28:28Speaker 04

  But now made like so much less lovely by what I just told you.

• 1:28:32Liv Albert?

  No, but like, I think that's way better. The idea that we can also then read rolling out the red carpet into being like, yeah, like this. Cause I also, as you started talking about it, I was like, I don't know, are you gonna go to like a period blood kind of situation? Like, I think that's not that far from it either, like just a full or like just, yeah, like just a full birthing kind of analogy, like.

• 1:28:59Speaker 04

  It's so unhinged. It is so unhinged. But when you think about the fact that Pentheus is ripped apart by his mother.

• 1:29:08Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:08Speaker 04

  Lots about, you know, issues of the maternal, whether it's Medea or, you know, is it Agave? Is that Pentheus's mom?

• 1:29:16Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:17Speaker 04

  Yeah. Or Agave or, yeah, it's let alone Jacasta, dear old Jacasta.

• 1:29:23Liv Albert?

  Oh, Jacasta.

• 1:29:29Liv Albert?

  I mean, it's so good. I know, I'm just gonna think about the fear of female sexuality and everything now, which is funny because I kind of already have, but like, less specifically. Um, I, I'm like constantly.

• 1:29:44Speaker 04

  It's a real thing.

• 1:29:45Liv Albert?

  Yeah. I love being scary. I just love finding, like, I mean, anything that, you know, you know, we talked about like the complexity of anything being empowering for women in the ancient world. But I, I think regardless of the poor women back then, it is empowering now to learn this stuff.

• 1:30:04Speaker 04

  Definitely.

• 1:30:05Liv Albert?

  To, to just like look back and be like, fuck, you know, they were so afraid of women. Like, and then, and it remains today. Men are so afraid of women and like.

• 1:30:20Liv Albert?

  Power and agency and female emotion and rage and.

• 1:30:26Speaker 04

  Or also like the kind of literal objectification and fragmentation of the female body into vessels. Like turning the female body into stuff to drink from.

• 1:30:38Liv Albert?

  Oh, my god.

• 1:30:39Speaker 04

  From and to like store wine and like the jars have nipples like it's just the archaeological evidence. Let alone like all of the votives of the female body and all of those figurines and all of that. There's just this huge kind of breaking down of the woman and even like the weird sort of compartmentalization between, you know, the wife and the hetero and.

• 1:31:01Liv Albert?

  Yes.

• 1:31:02Speaker 04

  Ah, they devoted a lot of time and energy to it.

• 1:31:06Liv Albert?

  Yeah, well, there's just so much like I just, I want, I want to know it all, but I'm, it's just. I mean, you know, we didn't even get to like all like the full level of the detail of porn pots, porn pottery.

• 1:31:23Speaker 04

  Well, this is what I wanted to ask you is like, how, because I have so many visuals, I have so many visuals, but it's like, how do we? I don't know.

• 1:31:33Liv Albert?

  I know. Uh, yeah, I mean, there's only so many things I can do with social media and people rarely see it, but like, maybe we need to figure out something for our future. Maybe we, I mean, I hate the idea of video, but we could try to do a video special. Or maybe we team up with Erica and the three of us do something.

• 1:31:48Speaker 04

  Do like a YouTube dream.

• 1:31:50Liv Albert?

  Yeah, because I'm not, because Erica's not afraid of video like I am. I just, oh my, it's just like, look, it's just so fucking interesting. That this, I mean, I always knew they were afraid, but like, I love this extra level that you have bestowed upon me. Through these drinking vessels, like.

• 1:32:11Speaker 04

  You are so welcome. And once you see the connection between hypersexual women and monstrous women, it is so hard to unsee.

• 1:32:21Liv Albert?

  Skilla and Krybdis, like.

• 1:32:22Speaker 04

  My girls, my girls, my ladies.

• 1:32:27Liv Albert?

  Just a gaping swirling hole.

• 1:32:33Liv Albert?

  Get lost in it. You get lost in it.

• 1:32:37Speaker 04

  Get eaten by it. What a way to go.

• 1:32:42Liv Albert?

  Oh, my God. Okay, so I'm perpetually like, kind of walking a line for how much I share about the novel that I've been working on, like on the podcast, because it's not done. And also, like, this is me trying to get used to the fact that I've written what I've written.

• 1:32:58Liv Albert?

  But I am, I think I'm just gonna, like, start wrapping this up by telling the listeners that when you and I met in person, I was like, I think you're the right person to help me with the fact that I really need an ancient Greek word, because I've been reading a lot of romance novels. And I needed, I needed a more relevant one. And that's where this Ganos word that you mentioned earlier comes in, this word used for, like, the spurting of Agamemnon's blood when Clytemnestra stabbed him. And it's just so good. But I also love because I looked it up on Perseus. Liquid gladness. I forgot about that. I feel like, you know what, Perseus does not use that

• 1:33:40Liv Albert?

  definition. And I'm glad that you reminded me of it. When I clicked on it in Perseus, it was like, only Agamemnon. And it was just, I forget what it was, but I'm gonna go find it again. Either way, liquid gladness is getting written down right now.

• 1:33:54Speaker 04

  Yes, that fertilizes the plains.

• 1:33:59Speaker 04

  It's just so much.

• 1:34:03Liv Albert?

  I love it so much. This episode is fucking perfect. I just, oh, oh.

• 1:34:13Liv Albert?

  Okay, I'm going to tell you something, but after I wrap it up on the microphone. This was the greatest thing ever. Do you want to tell my listeners where they can hear and learn more from you? Please?

• 1:34:30Speaker 04

  Thank you so much for having me. I am at Cozy's Odyssey on Instagram and Twitter and TikTok. And I have got this YouTube series that you can find, yes, over on Proper Air Productions. I've actually got a few more projects coming up this year. So keep your eyes peeled. I might rope linen to one. Yes, that's a threat.

• 1:34:54Liv Albert?

  Please, I'm down.

• 1:34:57Speaker 04

  Um, yeah, so I'm on literally every platform and thank you again for having me. This has been sort of as unhinged and joyful as I thought it would be and somehow even more so. So, thank you so much.

• 1:35:09Liv Albert?

  Thank you. Agree entirely. I both saw this coming and did not exceeded expectation. But I have a link to everything in the episode's description so they can follow you. And I'll just say that, yeah, like as Cosi's Odyssey, you followed me and messaged me like probably six years ago. And we were both little babies and it's just such a joy. It's so fun. And I mean, we didn't even like talk that much in the in-between, but just to let the listeners know, we met in person in Athens a couple of months ago and it was just truly like we were just immediately old friends, which was very lovely.

• 1:35:43Speaker 04

  It was so comforting. I was like, yes, internet friend, real friend.

• 1:35:48Liv Albert?

  For real, but it made this episode far more joyful than it could have been. So it did so well.

• 1:36:11Liv Albert?

  Oh, well, nerds. Uh, that was a joy. Just truly, oh my God, we had so much fun. So you can find more from Cosi on, uh, in the episode's description. I have linked to everything. And check out Propylaea Productions. They are doing some really cool stuff when it comes to video. And also the Erica that we mentioned is of course Erica Stevenson from Moan Inc., who is putting out some really awesome content on YouTube. Hence the joke about her not being afraid of video. And she's also involved with Propylaea Productions. So check out everything, uh, that Cosi has done because it's wonderful. And also like, I think you probably want to follow somebody who talks about boob cups, like academically, you know?

• 1:36:57Liv Albert?

  Thank you all so much for listening. Let's Talk Oh My Baby is written and produced by me, Liv Albert. Michaela Smith is the Hermes to my Olympians. Is that what I say? My brain has stopped working. Michaela's the assistant producer. Laura Smith is the audio engineer and production assistant. The podcast is part of the iHeart Podcast Network. Listen on Spotify or Apple or wherever you get your podcasts. And just, you know, a big thank you. On Tuesday, we should be starting the Bronze Age Collapse series, provided I can write enough of this Medusa book in time. If not, it'll just be the week later. I guess you'll just have to wait and see. I am Liv and I love this shit.

• 1:37:41Liv Albert?

  Even if it means that I've... I don't know how I write so much. It's a thing. It's fun. But it is exhausting.

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