237: How to Turn a Vision into a Plan For Ultimate Victory. In Battle and in Life. Army Techniques Publication FM 3-21.10

0:00:00 - Opening 0:03:22 - Army Techniques Publication / FM 3-21.10 1:35:08 - Final thoughts and take-aways. 1:36:40 - How to stay on THE PATH. 1:56"08 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 237 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. So lots of dynamic things happening in the world right now. And when there are lots of dynamic things happening, leaders have to make things happen. Leaders have to assess, have to decide, have to plan. And since all of us are going through these dynamic scenarios, I wanted to, I wanted to touch on something today. It's called troop leading procedures. And the version that I'm going to cover is from an Army Techniques publication

• 0:45Jocko Willink?

  or field manual, 3TAC 21.1, which is, which is the name of that is Infantry Rifle Company. And it's a giant manual, 500 or something pages, which we're not going to go through all that because there's an appendix in it. And appendix B is planning and preparing. And it's, look, it's interesting. I've planned a lot of things in my life and I've been in charge of a lot of planning in my life. I've been very lucky from that perspective. And I was planning things before I knew any of this stuff. And I learned a lot of lessons along the way from, from that.

• 1:25Jocko Willink?

  And then as I started to reflect back and once I started kind of officially learning about how to plan, I would look back and see how things made sense and see some things that I would overlook, some things that I didn't overlook, some things that the doc, the, uh, the documents overlook. So thinking about this, and this is actually based on this massive process in the Army or in the military called the Military Decision Making Process, which is this absolutely granular way to go through every possible.

• 2:01Jocko Willink?

  Element of a decision, of a big decision of how you're going to plan something. So that is meant for higher, higher elements above the company, right? So that's meant for battalion, brigade, division. You know, when you have a whole staff of people that their job is to do these type of long decision-making processes. So this right here is meant at the company level, you know, 100 guys, 150 guys, three platoons worth of guys, that's what this is aimed at. And there's definitely some things in here to pay attention to. So that, you know, we can, we can see if we're missing things, see if there's things we can

• 2:43Jocko Willink?

  add, see if some things we can, we can take away from this that will help us lead and plan and make better decisions. And I'm not going to even go into massive depth, even this subsection, even this appendix has a lot of really granular information. And that's one thing, you know, the army does doctrine very well and they go, they get, they get into it and they will get granular. You will not miss anything if you follow their doctrine. But a lot of it is very specific to the military. But it's even worth looking at it, you can get this on the interwebs, just as a PDF or whatever, this whole document, you can check this out and it'll give you some indication of the level of granularity that they're planning to. But we're not going to dive into all that.

• 3:28Jocko Willink?

  I'm going to try and keep it to the elements in here that are, for the most part, universally applicable in, in anyone that's planning. So here we go. Planning and preparation, appendix D from FM 3 tac 21 point 1. Planning is a process by which the company commander translates visualization into a specific course of action for preparation and execution focusing on expected results.

• 3:55Jocko Willink?

  It's interesting to even think of the fact that what you're doing as a leader is you're taking this vision and you're turning it into an executable plan. So just that right there can help people and I'll tell you how. If you don't have a vision, you're not going to come up with a plan. So the whole process is taking your visualization, your vision and turning it into an actionable course of action, things that you can actually do. Just think about that from your daily life perspective, right? If you don't have a vision of what your day is going to be like, that day is not going to have a plan behind it. You're not going to have a course of action for that day. So out of the gate, we're already learning sentence one, we're in the game.

• 4:37Jocko Willink?

  Planning helps create, helps the commander create and communicate a common vision and a shared understanding between subordinate leaders and unified action partners. Boy, that's a weird way of saying team, right? Unified action partners. Actually, I was gonna, I was saying that in kind of an insulting way, but then I kind of got into it, right? I kind of transitioned there in the process of saying it. This guy's not my teammate, he's my unified action partner. See where we're coming from. That's, you know, the army will add some, they'll make up some, some things like that. Team isn't good enough. We're going unified action partners. It's cliche, we're not talking about, the team is just, you know, you're playing games. We're not talking unified action partners.

• 5:21Jocko Willink?

  Planning results in an order that synchronizes the action of forces in time, space and purpose to achieve objectives and accomplish the missions. That's a very verbose way of making that statement, right? We know what planning does. I'm not even going to read that sentence again, it was a bit much. The commander relies on intuitive decision-making and direct contact with subordinate leaders to integrate activities when circumstances are not suited for troop leading procedures.

• 5:52Jocko Willink?

  So what does that mean? At a certain point, you're not doing all this detailed planning. You're relying on your relationship, your intuitiveness and understanding and communicating with the subordinate leaders. So you don't get to do this all the time. That's understood. I'm going to talk about three different types of planning. Parallel planning, collaborative planning and distributed planning. Parallel planning allows each echelon to make maximum use of the time available. And the way it does that is that, let's say I was the boss and you were the subordinate. And I said, hey, Echo, we're going to go film something in Texas. That's all you need to know and you're going to start coming up with a plan. You don't just wait for me to say, hey, we're going to Dallas.

• 6:36Jocko Willink?

  We're going to film this. We're going to be there for this many day. You go, okay, we're going to Texas. I know that. Start coming up with a plan. I'm going to need batteries. I'm going to need SD cards.

• 6:45Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 6:46Jocko Willink?

  See, I'm kind of doing your job for you over here. So, parallel planning, you want to tell people what's happening so they can start to plan. Collaborative planning is commanders, subordinate commanders, staff and other partners sharing information, knowledge, perceptions, ideas, concepts, regardless of physical location throughout the planning process. Obviously, right? We are going to work together to come up with a plan. Up and, up and down the chain of command, we're working. And then distributed planning allows the commander and staff members to execute planning from different locations. Okay, no factor. Goes into some detail about, about parallel planning here. Two or more echelons planning for the same operation, sharing information sequentially through warning orders and higher headquarters

• 7:30Jocko Willink?

  prior to higher headquarters publishing their operation plan or their op order. That's what I just said. You're not waiting until I give you the full detailed timeline of what we're doing in Texas to go film this video. I'm just telling you, we're going to Texas and you're kind of going to start thinking of how you're going to get it done. You don't need to know much more than that. Uh, parallel planning hinges on a shared understanding of the situation. Pause for a moment. That is important. Because if we don't have a shared understanding of the situation, we could come up with totally different parallel plans. If you think we're going to Texas to film, you know, a podcast.

• 8:16Jocko Willink?

  But I know that we're going to film an action sequence. Right? You're bringing different equipment. So I need to give you a shared understanding of the situation. The company commander cannot finalize the company order until the battalion completes their order. So at some point, you have to know everything that I know. At some point, you have to know exactly what it is we're trying to make happen.

• 8:39Jocko Willink?

  So that makes sense. Okay. And so, look, and I'm skipping through a bunch of stuff here, but I want to jump into the actual troop leading procedures. Which it says are a dynamic, a dynamic process used by small unit leaders to analyze a mission, develop a plan, prepare for an operation. Troop leading procedures extend the M D M P conducted at battalion level with its coordinating staff to a company level. So the M D M P is the thing I talked about. Military decision-making process.

• 9:09Jocko Willink?

  These procedures enable company level leaders to maximize available planning time while developing effective plans and preparing the company for a mission. Troop leading procedures consist of eight steps. The troop leading procedure step sequence is not rigid. So you're going to get a sequence of how you're going to plan, but it's not, it doesn't stay that way all the time. The commander modifies the sequence to meet mission situation and time available. Some steps are done concurrently while others may go on continuously throughout the mission. The troop leading procedure steps are as follows. Step one, receive the mission. And I'll go ahead and just pause right there. That's something that.

• 9:54Jocko Willink?

  You know, when people think of, when, when, when, let's say someone like yourself, Echo Charles. When you hear that, I know what you're thinking. You're thinking of 98% of the movies that you've seen about the military, which is, you know, the troops are sitting around the board and in comes the commander. And the commander says, okay, gents, here's the next mission, right? That's like the common thing.

• 10:24Jocko Willink?

  Am I wrong?

• 10:24Speaker 01

  You're not wrong.

• 10:27Jocko Willink?

  And that does happen. But it's not, well, in the SEAL teams, it's not normal. It's not the norm. The norm is the team itself, the platoon, the task unit, the troop is developing the information. They're finding out. So they're kind of making the mission.

• 10:48Jocko Willink?

  Producing the mission, gathering the intel, all those things are happening. But it does happen sometimes where you literally receive the mission. Hey, here is what you need to go do. So that's step number one, receive the mission, or I guess we would say either receive the mission or, or confirm the mission or select the mission because you'll have multiple missions that you're trying to bring to fruition. So when you finally decide on a mission or you receive a mission, that's be the two things I would say. That's number one. Number two, issue a warning order, which we'll get into. Number three, make a tentative plan. Number four, initiate movement. Number five, conduct reconnaissance. Number six, complete the plan. Number seven, issue the order. Number eight, supervise and refine.

• 11:32Jocko Willink?

  Okay. Troop leading procedures begin with the company commander, begin when the company commander receives the first indication of an upcoming mission and continues throughout the operational process. So this whole time, you're sort of supposed to be, and the, one of the key words here that they use is refine. You're supposed to be refining this plan all the time. That never stops. Troop leading, troop leading procedures comprise a sequence of actions to help the commander use available time effectively and efficiently to issue orders and execute operations. Normally, the first three steps. Which is receive the mission, give a warning order and make a tentative plan of troop leading procedures occur in order.

• 12:15Jocko Willink?

  The tasks involved in some actions such as initiate movement, issue the warning order and conduct reconnaissance may recur several times during the process. The last step supervised refine occurs throughout. So there you go. A couple of other things to highlight from this section. Attention exists between executing current missions and planning for future missions. The company commander must balance both. That happens all the time in business, happens all the time in any environment, right? You've got what we're doing right now and you need to pay attention to what we're doing right now. And you also need to think about what we're going to be doing. I hate to say this, but oftentimes it is necessary to bifurcate between

• 12:59Jocko Willink?

  who's planning what's happening right now and who's planning what's happening in the future. So for instance, for instance, in the SEAL teams, you'll end up with someone who is the operations officer who's kind of handling what we're doing right now. And you have future operations officer who's handling what is coming down the pipe. So that is something to think about. If you don't have the manpower to do that, a good thing to do is to allot a certain amount of time every day to say, okay, look, we're in the firefight today. We've got stuff going on. We know we need to get that handled, but I'm going to take an hour after lunch, before lunch. I'm going to sit down for two hours during lunch with my team. We're going to talk about what's going on in the future. Cause it can be very hard to get that stuff done.

• 13:44Jocko Willink?

  It's why I shouldn't say that. It can be very hard to actually pay attention to what's going on in the future. When you have a lot of activity happening right now in front of our face. So you, you need to think through that and you need to pay attention to it.

• 14:00Jocko Willink?

  The commander and subordinate leaders begin troop leading procedures when they receive an initial warning order or receive a new mission. As each subsequent order arrives, the commander modifies assessments, updates tentative plans, and continues to supervise and assess preparations. The big difference there, they're talking about, you know, your boss keeps giving you additional information. For us, we would be waiting. The thing that would be driving us to make adjustments is intelligence that would be coming in. Oh, we're getting this information. Oh, we're getting some other information. So that's what's making us adjust and adapt our plan as we work. The commander uses troop leading procedures when working alone or with a small group to

• 14:45Jocko Willink?

  solve tactical problems, obviously. Risk management occurs continuously throughout troop leading procedures with varying emphasis on different steps at different times. So you've always got to be assessing risk. You're always going to be assessing risk. In fact, I was talking to a client the other day, and we were talking about risk assessment. And I made some statement or whatever. We were going through some problem, and I was talking about the risk involved. And they said something along the lines of like, it seems like you're very schooled in, you know, risk evaluation or whatever, some statement like that. And I said, well, you know, my entire job before was doing risk evaluation and risk assessment and mitigating risk. That's what you're doing.

• 15:28Jocko Willink?

  That's what, that's what the planning of a mission is. If we, if we insert this way, what is our risk? What's the benefit? If we insert the other way, what's the risk? How do we mitigate it? You know, that's what you're doing for every phase of an operation. And so, and that is what you should be doing. Every move that you make has some level of risk. And they go through the risk management steps.

• 15:53Jocko Willink?

  Step one, identify the hazards. Step two, assess the hazards. Step three, develop controls and make risk decisions. Step four, implement controls and then supervise and evaluate. And that's, there's, there's other stuff in here on risk assessment, but that's the, the fundamentals of what they're telling you to do. And then it says this, true leading procedures are not a hard and fast set of rules. Some actions may be performed simultaneously or in order different than shown. And they have a big chart. They've got it. It's actually a big chart with all kinds of little arrows and boxes and showing you which have flow chart of how you're making decisions. Cool to look at, interesting, interesting to look at.

• 16:37Jocko Willink?

  And it's a good thing to look at and sort of maybe overlay the types of decisions that you have to make. And

• 16:48Jocko Willink?

  one thing that I'll say that

• 16:51Jocko Willink?

  is something to pay attention to is time.

• 16:56Jocko Willink?

  Time is the hardest, you know, I was, I was talking the other day on EF online. And I was explaining to people that very seldom do you make a final decision.

• 17:14Jocko Willink?

  Right? So I'm talking like this is legit. In life, it's very seldom that you have to make a final decision. Like this is it. When you make this decision, that's it. You don't get another chance. So for instance, you know, most decisions that you make, you have some kind of opportunity to go back and undo it. And even something as extreme as if you have to fire somebody. Like let's say you gotta, let's say, you know, you work for me and I decide you, you know, you're not doing a good job and I fire you. Even that, if I could look back in two weeks and contact you and say, hey, listen, I think I made a bad call. Like there's a, there's a way out of it, right? It's, and so many decisions are like that.

• 17:59Jocko Willink?

  Even a decision as massive as on a personal level, oh, we're going to buy a house. Seems like this final decision.

• 18:08Jocko Willink?

  Actually, you can sell that house. You can get back out of that. So there's a lot of decisions that we make that seem like they're final decisions, but they're actually not. And the reason that I was talking about this is because if you and I are discussing something, if you and I are negotiating something,

• 18:26Jocko Willink?

  chances are it's not the last negotiation we're gonna have. If you, if you want, if you're pitching me your plan on how to do something, and I'm, I'm fighting back with my plan, chances are we're gonna, we're gonna have another opportunity to go through what plan and how the plan is executed. So for me to think if I agree to your plan, and now I'm like, well, okay, you, I'm agreeing with Echo's plan, now my opportunity to influence is totally gone. It's not true, actually. You know, if I agree to your, you know what, Echo, your plan seems pretty good, let's go with it. Well, we're gonna, it's not just we're gonna take your plan at that moment and execute it, right? We're gonna, okay, let's go through the planning process, we're gonna look at how we're actually gonna do it, and we can make little adjustments. So very often,

• 19:11Jocko Willink?

  our negotiations are not final. And our decisions are not final. I don't know. You know, what's a final decision that you have to make in life, right? There's getting a tattoo. Even that's not final. You can get that thing removed. I think it hurts a lot, apparently.

• 19:26Speaker 01

  It's a little bit more than the actual tattoo, yeah, from what I hear.

• 19:30Jocko Willink?

  So, and I think it leaves a scar, right?

• 19:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, a little bit.

• 19:33Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so that's, that's closer to a permanent decision. But generally, we're making decisions that are

• 19:43Jocko Willink?

  that, that have, and this is actually what I said, I said, when you can, you actually wanna make decisions that are open loop. Meaning, we're not gonna make the closed decision. If I can avoid it. Now, if I have to make it, I make it. But if I can leave an opening on the decision, then I will. Because that gives me some room to maneuver. And, and backpedaling, maybe it was the wrong choice and I made it.

• 20:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, you'd be hard pressed, really, now that you kind of think about it, to find a decision. I mean, of course, the obvious ones, if you're gonna kill somebody or something like that, or do something like illegal, where it's gonna be like, right, you're gonna go to jail for that, or so, you know, that kind of stuff. But yeah, it's like, there's always a sort of like, you could maneuver your way back into the, you know, a different decision.

• 20:32Jocko Willink?

  And what's important about this is if you go into something thinking that you want to maintain the ability to maneuver, then that is a good attitude to have. So I always try and make small decisions, yes, and also trying to make the least amount of final decisions that I can. Now, look, do you, do you get to points in some situations where you do, yes, you do? And when you do, you assess it, and then you make your final decision, you move forward. The reason that I'm saying all this is there is something that is non-negotiable, that has no mercy, and you can never go back on.

• 21:10Speaker 01

  Time.

• 21:11Jocko Willink?

  Time. And the way we treat time, sometimes oddly enough, it's the thing that we act as if it's, you know, as if we're gonna have more time, or we can get that time back.

• 21:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:22Jocko Willink?

  We nego, we think it's, it's a negotiable thing, and the bottom line is, it's not. And so, the reason I bring this up is because they, they talk about it, and it's one of the key points of assessing planning, is assessing the time that you have available.

• 21:40Jocko Willink?

  And so often, I see companies, I see people in business, I see planning, in the SEAL teams, people used to make this mistake, and you see people make this mistake with their life, which is, time is the one thing that there's no negotiation on. And once you let it go, there's literally no possible way to get it back. It's gone. It's gone. You can try and recover some of it by picking up the pace here, cutting a corner there. You can try and recover some of that time, but let's face it, it's gone. If you sleep in, and you wake up late, you can still get a workout in, you compress it to somebody, but you didn't get that full, right? You didn't get that full workout. So you have, this is, if there's anything to take away from this,

• 22:25Jocko Willink?

  if there's one thing that you need to kind of pay attention to above all, it's how you utilize your time.

• 22:33Jocko Willink?

  Because it's quick. All right.

• 22:38Jocko Willink?

  Step one, now we're getting to step one, which is receive the mission.

• 22:44Jocko Willink?

  Step one in troop leading procedures, the commander determines the company's mission and assesses the time available to accomplish the mission. There you go. That's the first thing you've got to do. And this is what's cool. They go into this little section here. They talk a little bit about how you receive the mission, but then they say, here's some things that you can do in this first step. Conduct a confirmation brief to the battalion commander to verify an understanding of the battalion commander's intent. So that's good. You've got something to do. Let's confirm with the upper echelon to make sure we understand what they want. Initial assessment, you knock that out. And then it goes, goes into these last three bullet points, which all have to do with what I just talked about, which I put a star next to each one of these because I was thinking

• 23:29Jocko Willink?

  about this. Conducts an initial planning time analysis to identify critical times in the timeline. Two, analyzes the time the company commander has, the company has available and three prepares an initial timeline. This is so important. I'm going to tell you, you want to know about, well, I mean, I do this a lot, but one time this, that this is very obvious to me. I did this, didn't really think about it, but we were at one of the musters and there's a lot of stuff going. It was like one of the early musters. There was a lot of chaos going on. And actually this was, this wasn't probably, this is maybe like muster to like four or five. So there's things happening, but we're starting to understand a little bit better. And everyone's, you know, we're, we're

• 24:10Jocko Willink?

  meeting and the whole team's there and, and I can see, I'm like, wait a second. I don't feel comfortable with where we are right now. And then I said, all right, here's what's going on. We're going to meet at this time for this. We're going to meet at this time for this. Everyone's got to have their brief done by this and just put out a timeline. And all of a sudden everyone's locked into position. Everyone knows what's happening. We know how much time we have. We get it. If you don't do that as a leader, that time disappears. It disappears and you cannot get it back. It is impossible to get back. So when you get a tasking of some kind, the very first thing you should do is just do a good analysis of the amount of time. And you know what? You

• 24:54Jocko Willink?

  might want to start looking at your days and your weeks like that too. Yeah. Cause it's slipping. Then it says the most important element of a company's warning order is the initial timeline for planning. They're just beating this down. A warning order, this is a cool thing to know. A warning order is a preliminary notice of an order of action to follow. So this is, it's basically a heads up. It's a heads up, hey, this is what's going on. This is what we got going on. This is what we expect to have happening. It's kind of like me saying to you, hey Echo, we just got a call. We're going to Texas. We gotta do filming. That's a warning order. Hey Echo, we're going to Texas probably in two weeks. We're going to record a podcast there with a guest. And you're like, okay, cool. You don't need to know anything. I mean, you, you can start a lot of initial planning. That's what a warning order is.

• 25:40Jocko Willink?

  It's, it's important to put that together because it gives people a heads up. Here's some of the things inside of a warning order. Mission or nature of the operation.

• 25:51Jocko Willink?

  Time and place for issuing the operation order. So I'm going to give you the final order at this time. Task organize the units or elements participating in the operations. If I was like, hey Echo, we're going to go down there, but also good deal, David's coming with us. Okay, cool. So now you know you got camera, you're right. So you already know who else is involved in this situation. Oh, and JP's meeting us there. You know what I'm saying? We're going to add, you're going to know everyone you're dealing with.

• 26:16Jocko Willink?

  Reconnaissance and surveillance to initiate. Hey, we're going to be in the Austin area. Can you see what some possibilities are for us to record it? You see where I'm going with this? Yeah, locations. You're doing a little recon. You're going to get on Google Maps. You're going to look for various hotels, see what kind of conference rooms they have. Security missions to initiate. That's very militaristic thinking of if we're going to be doing operations, sometimes we got to shut down outside communication. We gotta, we gotta start doing our weapons testing every day. So if we do it the day before, people want to know. So we're going to do some security precautions. Movement to initiate. If you had to fly in someone, you, you start that movement.

• 27:00Jocko Willink?

  Information requirements. What do you need to know? Essential commander's critical information requirement.

• 27:08Jocko Willink?

  Which I've been talking, I've actually been talking about that one a decent amount. I've been talking about that one a decent amount because as we went into COVID-19, this lockdown that the world has been in, a lot of companies and businesses that we work with, all of a sudden, we're not coming into work. They were not co-located. Everyone's working from home. They're working on computers. And sometimes they would feel like, I would have leaders asking me, well, you know, I don't,

• 27:35Jocko Willink?

  I don't know what my team is doing. And I don't know if they're doing the right things. And so I talked about some methods to make sure that they are doing the right things without micromanaging them. Two things. One of them is an execution checklist. Meaning, okay, I'll be at this location at this time, working on this. By this time, I'll be working on this next thing. By, I'll be at this other job site. By this time, I'll be this, done with this much of the project by this time. So you know where they're at.

• 28:00Jocko Willink?

  The other thing is this commander's critical information requirements, which means if something happens inside these required elements, you tell me about it. So, for instance, in Ramadi, you know, if we had troops in contact, my tactical operations center knew to come and tell me we had troops in contact. If, obviously, we had a guy wounded, if we had civilian casualties, there was things that guys knew, come and tell me immediately. And to be honest with you, as time went on, we modified those because eventually it was like, hey, the guys are going to be in contact. If they're in the field, they're going to be in contact. Let me know if it lasts for more than 15 minutes or something like that. Because otherwise, they're contacting me all the time and it's just not worth it.

• 28:46Jocko Willink?

  Uh, next one is essential element of friendly information. This is knowing where your friendly forces are. Planning and preparation instructions, specific tasks not addressed by unit standard operating procedures. That's an important one. So if I tell you, hey Echo, we're going to go film a podcast. And by the way, it's going to be underwater. Yeah. You go, okay, that's not normal. Right. This is outside the norm. You gotta get a case, a housing. Housing? Yeah, you gotta get a waterproof housing. Sure. And last thing, most important, timeline for the operation. So there are some things that you put in the warning order. Next thing is make a tentative plan. In a time constrained environment, commander typically develops only one course of action.

• 29:29Jocko Willink?

  I don't even know if it's, I don't, they say that, I don't even know if it's possible to only develop one course of action. Because when you look at a problem, you automatically come up with multiple ways to solve it. So you automatically come up with multiple courses of action. I guess maybe they say develop, maybe that's a key word that I, that I'm not focused on. Cause you can come up with three courses of action, but only actually develop one, meaning go into it a little bit more. So I guess that does make sense.

• 29:57Jocko Willink?

  The, the commander does not wait for a complete op-ord before starting to develop a tentative plan. This is important and there's two parts of this that make it important. When you develop a tentative plan, first of all, you don't want to wait too long to try and develop it. And second of all, you, once you start to develop it, you don't want to go all the way. Cause you're going to waste time when you don't actually know. So you might get told, hey, you're going to hit a target in this area. Or we think it's this building, right? So you start coming up with a plan, tentative plan, then you start going further and you haven't heard anything yet. And you get all the way to where you're actually developed the perfect plan for this particular. And then they go, oh yeah, sorry, wrong building, actually wrong block. Actually, we're one pound over. So you develop this whole plan, wasted a bunch of time, spun everybody up.

• 30:43Jocko Willink?

  When what you should have said is, hey, guys, we're going to do a direct action mission. Get your gear ready, get some sleep, I'll let you know when it develops further. So now everyone gets their gear ready, maybe they get a little sleep. Now we get more granular detailed information, we can take that next step in planning.

• 31:03Jocko Willink?

  Moving to mission analysis. The commander conducts mission analysis to develop situational understanding, which is the product of applying analysis and judgment to relative information to determine the relationship among the operational and mission variables to facilitate decision making and to confirm what the company must do to accomplish the mission. That's a big sentence.

• 31:28Jocko Willink?

  What does it mean? Situational understanding. You want to know what's happening. You want to know what's happening and figure out what it is you need to do to accomplish the mission. Oh, we're going on a mission and there is a giant river that we're going to need to get across. Okay, we know we're gonna have to do a river crossing. Okay, got it. Oh, there's a cliff that we need to climb. Okay, so now we gotta come up with a way to climb a cliff. So you're looking at this situation overall and figuring out what it's going to take to get through that situation. Oh, there's

• 31:59Jocko Willink?

  you know, a gate or a fence around. We need to find a way to get over, through, under, around the fence. Okay, so you're figuring out what you're going to need to make this happen and accomplish the mission. That's the mission analysis.

• 32:13Jocko Willink?

  Mission analysis answers four questions that become inputs to developing a course of action. These questions are: what is the company's mission? What is the current situation? How does the company accomplish the mission? And what are the risks? Analyzing the mission variables is a continuous process. The commander constantly receives information from the time the planning begins through execution. What is the company's mission? What is the current situation? How does the company accomplish the mission? And what are the risks? Those are the questions you're asking yourself to figure out a course of action.

• 32:49Jocko Willink?

  And this is where

• 32:52Jocko Willink?

  it might seem like those are real obvious. In fact, let me rephrase that. Those seem real obvious. And yet, I will work with companies all the time and see them in the planning process for something. And I'll say something like, "What is it you're trying to actually do?"

• 33:11Jocko Willink?

  And they will have lost their mission in the planning. Right? They will have lost the mission in the planning. I forget where we were talking about this, but it's the same thing of thinking that the way we get to the target is the mission. It's not. No. The way you get to the target is not the mission. The way that you the way that you execute the mission is not the mission.

• 33:34Jocko Willink?

  There's a big difference.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:35Jocko Willink?

  And so sometimes people get caught up in the way they're doing something.

• 33:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:39Jocko Willink?

  Not what they're actually supposed to be doing, or even more important, why they're doing it.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. Actually, the whole thing kinda seems obvious, the whole thing.

• 33:49Jocko Willink?

  It seems totally, a lot of this seems totally obvious. And the reason that it's important to go through it is it doesn't seem obvious when you're in it.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 34:02Jocko Willink?

  When you're in it, you, you miss things and you don't pay attention to things. And that's what you have to be careful of. And you have to be careful regardless of how experienced you are, because when you're experienced, you get experienced in a certain, you get experienced in a certain category, in a certain rut. I'll call it a rut, even though it's not necessarily bad, but it's a good word to use. You know, if you, if every jujitsu tournament that you go in, you got great takedowns, you get the takedowns and you pass guard and that's how you win. That's great and you can get used to that. And when you're preparing for a tournament, you be like, yep, I'm gonna work my guard pass, I'm gonna work my takedowns. And we all know that there's gonna be someone that's got better takedowns than you. Next thing you know, you're on the bottom and you're not winning because you didn't prepare for that. You didn't think about that.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, and a lot of it seems like a, uh, almost like a reminder for organization. So you know, like some, some people, some of us.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  People will give us a suggestion to be more organized in one way or another.

• 35:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I've been aware of these things.

• 35:08Speaker 01

  You know, I'm just saying, it's possible. Uh, and to some people, some of us, it's like, well, you know, like, yeah, you know, but hey, that's not my methodology. You know, like it's, it's organized chaos kinda thing. Maybe that's more of an excuse than anything. I'm not saying it always is, but it could be. Um, it's like, it's a reminder, a constant reminder to indicate the value of being organized. And organized with everything, I'm not just saying your, your pens are over here, you know, and your papers are, it's not that specifically. It's like the way, the way you're thinking about this whole process from like where you are right now, given where you wanna be.

• 35:48Jocko Willink?

  Yes, and let's face it, when your world is disorganized, your mind is disorganized.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:55Jocko Willink?

  And what it takes, what something like this, you're actually making an excellent point. This type of, this type of document, this type of process, what it does is it forces you to organize your mind.

• 36:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:10Jocko Willink?

  That's what it's doing. It's forcing you to just, it's to organize your mind. And even though your, your mind may be relatively organized, and even though your world may be relatively organized, there are still things, and that takes me back to like the rut idea. There's still things that when you approach them, you've kind of forgot, or you've, you've done something a certain way, which is within the confines of what we're talking about. But now you're doing something else that requires you to dig and, and step outside what you have been doing. And if you don't have anything to refer to, you're kind of going out in the wild.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:46Jocko Willink?

  And you don't want to let your brain go out in the wild.

• 36:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's a lot of times where when distractions come in and like other short-term things come in that you attend to essentially.

• 36:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and you, and you know, I'm gonna, okay, so I just said you don't want to let your brain go out there in the wild. And that's actually, I don't actually want to say that. Because you do want, you, you do want to look at a problem and you want to analyze a problem with an open mind. And maybe the answer is wild.

• 37:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:17Jocko Willink?

  But we know that discipline equals freedom, right? So if you can't even put a structure around what the mission is and what the problem is and, and what the assets you, if you can't put a structure around that, you might as well, all your quote, wild ideas won't cover all the bases. But if you put, get a firm grip on what you're actually dealing with. Well, then, you can have some wild ideas.

• 37:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that, and when you said, don't let your brain go in the wild, I didn't get the impression that you meant, um, like, stay so rigid to this stuff. It didn't feel like that. It meant have a plan, man. You know, like, even just, I mean, this is a common one where it's like, yeah, plan out your day, or plan out your week, or whatever, or even like, it kind of applies to everything, really. Like, anything that you want to do well, it's like, you're gonna have some sort of a solid plan, that, you know, varying levels of flexibility, obviously depends on what it is. But like, even if you want to, you want to lose weight, or you want to get in shape, you know, you got meal prep, you got workout prep, like, you're gonna know what you're gonna do, unless you're like, one of these instinctive training guys, which is like, way down the line, pretty much no one can do it.

• 38:27Speaker 01

  But, you know, like, when you go in the gym, like, you know, I mean, unless you don't know what you're doing at all. So that's like, another thing, but again, if you want to do something well, successfully, or whatever, you go in the gym, you're gonna have the workout, yeah, I got burpees, I got pull-ups, I got, you know, like, I typically know how many, you know, I even, quite frankly, we talk about this a lot, I even know how much rest I'm gonna take in between, you know, so the better your plan.

• 38:49Jocko Willink?

  None.

• 38:52Speaker 01

  So, anyway, it's like, um, I, if you have a plan, yes. But your brain going out in the wild, that's basically, you're saying, don't not have a plan. You're just out in the wild, no plan, you know?

• 39:03Jocko Willink?

  You need some kind of a line to deviate from.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:06Jocko Willink?

  That's exactly what I'm saying.

• 39:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yes, exactly, right. So like, you go to the gym, right, you got your workout. Okay, let's say, today I got, I got flat bench, then I got, uh, pull-ups, and then I got, um, uh, you know, some curls, obviously, straight bar curls. In fact, I'm gonna do that first. So, if I go in and I go to the straight bar curl, bar, I do my curls, then it's time to go flat bench, barbell, but it's like, dang, there's like, someone using that. Right? What, plan done? Plan over? No, Brad, you better go jump on the dumbbells. You gotta jump on the incline, you gotta do something, yeah, you gotta, you gotta explore that wild, you know, those other options, those flexible options, so yeah, I dig it, but, yeah, when you mean like, not having a plan, that's, that's the wild, you want to exist there.

• 39:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the, the other thing is... If, I mean, if you throw a dart with your eyes shut completely, right? That's, you don't even have a chance, right?

• 40:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:01Jocko Willink?

  But as long as you like, open an eye and you go, okay, cool. I kind of see where we're going here. Boom, now you can make up, now you can throw something out in the wild and maybe it hits.

• 40:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:12Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 40:16Jocko Willink?

  You get to this point here where it is identify tentative decision, decisive point. Decisive point's a good word, it's a doctrinal term. Decisive point is where you, you, it's, it's like a thing that happens, a point that you reach where now you should win, right? Now you have like a marked advantage over the enemy. Different, for different situations, you know, when you've got, you know, when Dean Lister grabs a hold of your leg.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 40:47Jocko Willink?

  It's a decisive point, right? I'm not saying you're gonna lose, but there's a strong probability. Well, let me, let me not just group everyone in this. I'll say with me. When Dean grabs my leg, I know I'm in trouble. I can get out, but I know I'm in trouble. I know I'm gonna have to scramble. So those are, that's what a decisive point is, and this is a very interesting statement here. Identifying a tentative decisive point and verifying it during a course of action development is the most important aspect of the troop leading procedure. The commander visualizes a valid decisive point to determine how to achieve success and accomplish the mission's purpose.

• 41:31Jocko Willink?

  The commander develops the entire course of action from the decisive point. Without determining a valid decisive point, the commander cannot begin to develop an appropriate course of action. So that is a bold statement.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  So to be clear on the decisive point, because these kind of both make sense where, okay, it's, it's not necessarily, okay, there's a decisive point where we determine this mission as successful. It's not that. It's not achieving the mission, you know.

• 42:06Jocko Willink?

  It's not the mission accomplishment.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 42:08Jocko Willink?

  It's, we got, we just got to a point where now we should win.

• 42:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I like that.

• 42:14Jocko Willink?

  Now we should accomplish. You know, if you look at a striker versus a grappler, what's the decisive point in that match?

• 42:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, when you go to the ground.

• 42:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the decisive point for the grappler is when he gets the takedown. The decisive point for the striker is like round two and a half, and he's stuffed four takedowns, and the fifth takedown attempt just gets brushed off like it's nothing. And all of a sudden, and now you see the grappler breathing hard.

• 42:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:42Jocko Willink?

  And now, so now the strikers can start upping the strikes and start teeing off a little bit, and start throwing kicks. So at that point, and I've had those discussions with fighters before, like, okay, like, you're not throwing any kicks in the first round. You're gonna, you're not gonna put any real weight behind your punches in the first round. Second round, I'll tell you. You know, once you've sloughed off or stuffed three or four takedowns in the first round, two takedowns in the second round? Decisive point just got reached. Now you can start throwing bombs. Same thing with a grappler. So those are the decisive points in a fight. You didn't necessarily win just because that happened, but that's what you're setting up for.

• 43:26Jocko Willink?

  So now when we go into the planning, we think about that decisive point. It's obvious, okay, we got the guy to the ground. Now, now we're good. That's what we plan around. How do we do that? How do we make that happen? Different fighter, you know, maybe it's a fighter that doesn't do well against the cage. So we're gonna get him against the cage. That's not quite the decisive point, but that's a strategy that we're gonna use. We're gonna get the other fighter against the cage, then we're gonna get underhooks, and we're gonna look to grind, and that's where the takedown comes. And once the takedown comes, we're now at a decisive point.

• 43:54Jocko Willink?

  So that's what it means, but it's very interesting that the planning that they're talking about is directed and related to that decisive point, not even to this getting the mission done.

• 44:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:06Jocko Willink?

  That decisive point. Hey, once we get control of the, you know, the external parts of this building and we get it locked down, we know what's gonna happen.

• 44:18Speaker 01

  I used to play this game called Zanik on the original Nintendo, Nintendo Entertainment System. You're probably familiar with that. You remember that one, right? The old school, the cross, you know, it's not a joystick. Anyway, so.

• 44:32Jocko Willink?

  Was that like the original, um, like non joystick? Cause the thing that I saw when I was a kid was the Atari. Did you have Atari?

• 44:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was the first.

• 44:41Jocko Willink?

  I didn't have one, but I remember those joystick things.

• 44:43Speaker 01

  Sorry. Yeah, battle tank or what was it called? It was called Combat, but it's a battle tank on Atari. Shoot the guy, it spins. Anyway, no, this is Nintendo, right? Super Mario Brothers, um, Metroid, you know, Gyro Mite, remember these? Duck Hunt?

• 44:57Jocko Willink?

  No, I never had any of these games. I didn't have a Nintendo.

• 45:00Speaker 01

  Sorry, bro.

• 45:00Jocko Willink?

  What year was Nintendo?

• 45:01Speaker 01

  Uh, I think it was eighty-two or eighty-four.

• 45:04Jocko Willink?

  I'm very much in the game. I mean, I should have had something, but whatever. I guess we didn't get it over at the Willing household.

• 45:09Speaker 01

  Sorry, bro. Anyway, for, for those of us with it, there's this game called Zanik and it's a typical, you know, like a Space Invaders game, right? You know how Space Invaders are?

• 45:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 45:17Speaker 01

  It's like just the spaceship on the box. So this one was way more dynamic. You'd go forward and anyway, but you could get all these weapons, right? So each weapon has like a number. So if you get a number one, it's a certain weapon. And if you get another one, it's that same weapon, but it's just stronger or bigger or whatever, right? Now, on like, I think it was like level three or four, there's this, and the thing is the screen moves, right? So you don't, you don't move forward, the screen moves, you just gotta keep up with the screen.

• 45:45Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 45:45Speaker 01

  You know, it's kind of that, one of those kinds of games. So there's this area in like level three where if you, it's this little smiley face and you gotta catch it, you know, cause if, if it passes, it's gone, you know, and you gotta catch it. It's a little smiley face. You gotta shoot it. And what that does is any weapon you have, it gives it like the fullest power. Full spark. So if you get a number seven, right, a number seven weapon, which is like this kind of wand thing, anyway, it doesn't matter. But you get a number seven weapon, and then you shoot that smiley face, it gives you like the most powerful weapon in the whole game. And you can just, it's super easy to just defeat the whole game.

• 46:23Jocko Willink?

  Decisive point right there.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  That smiley face is a decisive point, just like how you're saying, where it's like, the plan when you play Zanik isn't to beat the game. It is overhaul, yeah, of course, but the plan really is to get the seven and hit that smiley face. That's it.

• 46:37Jocko Willink?

  Have you ever thought about this worthless knowledge that you have about these games? And how you could have spent your youth studying important philosophical things of nature?

• 46:50Speaker 01

  Well, in a way, I did.

• 46:53Jocko Willink?

  Obviously, where you're talking about.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  Same thing.

• 46:55Jocko Willink?

  Zanik, what is it?

• 46:56Speaker 01

  Zanik.

• 46:57Jocko Willink?

  Zanik.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, it wasn't like a super duper popular game, but it was pretty solid. You know, it was a good, good one, good music, fun game, hard.

• 47:08Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so we're talking about that's the decisive point, decisive point of that game, where you should win. Could you still lose if you had weapon seven, level seven, smiley face, or whatever?

• 47:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:19Jocko Willink?

  You could still lose.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, because it just makes it super, super easy.

• 47:23Jocko Willink?

  If you get shot one time, once you have that, you lose that.

• 47:25Speaker 01

  You lose the whole weapon. Yeah, exactly right. It's devastating. When you have that. But here's the thing, like compared to not having it, it's like night and day, you know? You know, there's a lot of games like that where you get this super, this one weapon that's super rare, but if you get it, you know, it's like, it makes it super easy. Usually they don't last long, like, you know, one of those guns that like you shoot it once and it kills everybody, you know, one of those, but you don't get a bunch of them. This one, you get the seven, it runs out, but it takes a lot to run out, you know?

• 47:54Jocko Willink?

  Powerful weapon.

• 47:55Speaker 01

  Very powerful. Decisive point, 100%.

• 47:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 47:58Speaker 01

  That is literally the example of a decisive point in Zanik.

• 48:03Jocko Willink?

  Is there any other details you want to give us?

• 48:05Speaker 01

  Well, in Super Mario Brothers, there's this trick you can do where you hit the turtle shell and you keep bouncing on them and it gives you like infinite men? Or something like that. Not infinite, but gives you like a hundred men. That's a decisive point.

• 48:16Jocko Willink?

  You're probably gonna win.

• 48:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz you can just die a bunch of times. You just keep going till you win.

• 48:20Jocko Willink?

  Isn't it sad though? Like, they could have set these games up so that they were really teaching you something about something, right? Think of like some knowledge, some memorization you had to do to get this thing about some important facts or whatever. Some mental challenges that made you think and you had to know and

• 48:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:38Jocko Willink?

  You learned whatever, some history or

• 48:41Speaker 01

  Brother, that doesn't sound fun at all.

• 48:42Jocko Willink?

  No, but you can make it. Don't you think you could make it fun?

• 48:46Speaker 01

  I'm sure, yeah. Actually, I think a lot of the games now are kinda like that. I think. I haven't played video games in a long time, but Yes, I have. What am I talking about?

• 48:56Jocko Willink?

  I mean, I don't think there's any historical facts in Grand Theft Auto V.

• 49:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Alright, let's move on, bro. Seriously, okay. So, next step. Once you've put your joystick away, Develop initial commander's intent. The commander's intent is clear, concise statement of what the force must do to succeed with respect to the enemy terrain and desired end state, Which is a set of required conditions that defines achievement of the commander's objectives.

• 49:32Jocko Willink?

  You wanna figure out what it is you wanna get done. That's the commander's intent. The commander's intent does not include the method By which the force will get from its current state to the end state. The method is the concept of operation and this is obviously really important. What you wanna let your troops do Is come up with a plan. Tell them what it is you wanna make happen and you let them come up with a plan. Echo, we're going up Texas. We're gonna film a podcast. It's gonna be underwater. We're gonna need four cameras cuz we got four guests. Good? That's it. That's all I'm gonna tell you. Now, you're gonna figure out what kinda housing and what kinda tripod and how you're gonna do it and what you're gonna run wires and how we're gonna talk when we're

• 50:16Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna figure all that stuff out.

• 50:21Jocko Willink?

  A mission, and then analysis of the mission. A mission is task and purpose clearly indicating the action to be taken and the reason for the action. That's the mission. Task and purpose clearly indicating the action to be taken and the reason for the action. The commander must understand the mission, intent, and concept of operation one and two levels higher. This understanding makes it possible to exercise disciplined initiative. And it's kind of implicit here that not only must you understand the, the concept of operation and the intent and the mission one and two levels above you, but man, you gotta make

• 51:04Jocko Willink?

  sure you understand the broad strategic mission as well. Everyone needs to understand these things. And the classic example I'll use is when, in, in the Battle of Ramadi to think, everybody needs to know that what we're trying to do is provide security for the populace. So everyone's gotta have that in the back of their mind when you're going out and there's civilians and you know that what you need to do is protect them, right? You're making decisions based on that. Protecting the infrastructure, like these are things that you need to understand, even though that might not fall into your, your commander's intent, or his commander's intent, or even his commander's intent.

• 51:46Jocko Willink?

  Overall, you gotta understand what the vision is, what the strategic vision is of the entire organization. So if you've got a company, the, and you know, the company is building, the, the most critical thing of the company is to build its reputation with its clients. Okay, guess what that means? Everybody should know, regardless of whatever little mission we're working on, the client is who we are there to support. You know, that's where you get to like, the client is always right. They come to you and they say, oh, we want this done again. Okay, let's make it happen. Everyone can make decisions based on that.

• 52:21Jocko Willink?

  So it's not just one or two miss- one or two levels above you. It's a lot more than that. And then what happens in this book is they start to go into the analysis of the terrain and weather. And this is where you just get into this absolute minutia. The five military aspects of terrain, obstacles. They start, you know, listing obstacles. There's, there's a page of descriptions of existing obstacles. Manmade include town, canals, railroad embankments, buildings, power lines, telephone lines. Reinforcing obstacles, tactical, tactical reinforces obstacles inhibit the ability of opposing force to move mass. Reinforced examples include minefields, conventional and situational, anti-tank ditches and obstacles and wire obstacles.

• 53:07Jocko Willink?

  And they go through each particular thing that you might need to think about. And I'll throw this in for Andy Stumpf. How will the terrain affect the employment of mortars, medium, machine guns and javelin missiles? It's my, my favorite, um, Andy Stumpf weapon.

• 53:26Speaker 01

  Javelin.

• 53:26Jocko Willink?

  Javelin missiles.

• 53:28Speaker 01

  What's that?

• 53:28Jocko Willink?

  It's like a man pack missile that you can use. And it's usually used for like destroying big things, but it can also be used in certain situations as an anti-personnel weapon, which Andy used it for.

• 53:45Jocko Willink?

  So they go through pages and pages of all these things. And then they start to talk about terrain. And what's interesting is if you, I'm not going to read all this stuff, but if you, if you look at this, it shows you the level of detail that they are asking people to think through this information. You know, just, just page after page of terrain analysis should produce several specific conclusions listed below. Battle support by fire assault fire positions, engagement areas and ambush sites, immediate and immediate objectives. Asset out locations such as enemy personnel, it goes on and on and on. And then it goes into five aspects of military weather, visibility, winds, precipitation, cloud cover, temperature and humidity. It just details each one of those.

• 54:31Jocko Willink?

  And then it goes into analysis of the enemy.

• 54:37Jocko Willink?

  Jumping through a little section of this analyzing the enemy answers the question what is the enemy doing and why? The commander answers what is the composition and strength of the enemy force? What are the capabilities of their weapons and other systems? What is the location of current and probable enemy positions? What is the enemy's most probable course of action? Are they going to defend reinforce attack withdraw delay? And then you start talking about assumptions about the enemy and then you start talking about the doctrinal analysis of the enemy, which is what you trying to figure out how the enemy is going to fight you? Then composition of the enemy, then disposition of the enemy, then the strength of the enemy,

• 55:20Jocko Willink?

  then the capabilities of the enemy, and then recent activities of the enemy. You see where I'm going with this? And you know what that all boils down to? A little bit of Sun Tzu, my friend.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  Sure, what knowing your enemy?

• 55:30Jocko Willink?

  Know your enemy. Know your enemy and what's the second part you just said?

• 55:33Speaker 01

  Knowing yourself.

• 55:34Jocko Willink?

  Know yourself. So guess what the next section is? Analysis of troops and support available. That's what you got. Then you're going to run through the same kind of information. What are the strengths and weaknesses of subordinate leaders? Hey, I got, you know, three platoons, six platoons. What do they like? Who are they? What are the strengths and weaknesses of the leaders inside those platoons? What is the supply status of ammunition, water, fuel, other necessary items? What is the present physical condition of the soldiers? What's their morale level? What is their sleep level? What is the condition of the equipment? What is the unit's training status and experience relative to the mission? Have they done this kind of mission before?

• 56:18Jocko Willink?

  What additional soldiers or units will accompany? What additional assets are required to accomplish the mission? So yes, you gotta know yourself.

• 56:25Speaker 01

  You've watched The Princess Bride?

• 56:28Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 56:29Speaker 01

  That's it's a surprisingly good movie.

• 56:32Jocko Willink?

  Okay, this is all completely relative. You tell me something.

• 56:36Speaker 01

  No. No.

• 56:38Jocko Willink?

  What is it about? I should have asked you that question. Okay, is there a main point to the story?

• 56:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, so anyway, there's this guy, he's the man in black.

• 56:45Jocko Willink?

  Cause time is critical.

• 56:46Speaker 01

  The dread pirate.

• 56:48Jocko Willink?

  People are here, they're thinking they wanna learn, maybe they wanna learn something about leadership. This movie might have almost nothing to do with that. We'll give you an opportunity though.

• 56:56Speaker 01

  I guess it's like, it's like a little metaphor, I guess, a little bit, if you understand it as such. So anyway, this guy, he's, he's the man in black is what they call him, but he's like the dread pirate Roberts. Doesn't matter who he is, but he basically has to, he gets, uh, uh,

• 57:12Speaker 01

  I forget, he gets separated from this girl that he loves, whatever, and then the girl's gonna marry this evil prince. So this guy comes back, right? They thought he was dead, whatever. He comes back all trained. He's like a ninja almost. It was like old medieval times kinda situation. But he's like a ninja, he has a little black stuff or whatever, but he always, when you, when you. Anyway, okay, here's a, here's a relevant, relevant part. This guy was a complete planner, when you think about it, when I'm listening to this. So there was a, there was a part where he, he gets like, he gets real messed up and he kinda wakes up or whatever. And these guys kinda help him and they're like, hey, we gotta go, like, we gotta go save this princess and I wanna kill this, this guy, this king or whatever. And the guy's like, barely can walk, barely can talk. He's like, what's our assets?

• 57:58Speaker 01

  And then they're like, okay, we got this, we got this. He goes, what's our liabilities? And he goes, blah, blah, blah. And he, and he runs down exactly what you're saying, like about what, how they have, they have thirty men, the guard is Catholic. And he was like, just sitting there incapable of moving, but he's planning like the whole thing and he's evaluating and he goes,

• 58:16Speaker 01

  I mean, you know, he comes up with a plan, but then when you think about the whole past of the movie, he plans like the whole thing. He planned like the whole thing. He, one time he tricked the guy, right? He tricked this guy. He plays this game, he goes like this, he goes, uh, here's a, one glass of wine for me, one glass of wine for you. And he grabs them both and he, and he puts poison, iocaine powder, puts poison in one of them, right? And he goes, okay, you choose, choose which one is mine, which one is yours, we both drink and whoever wins, lives. So the guy's like, alright, so he like does some dumb distraction thing. It's a comedy movie. And then, um, so they both drink and of course the bad guy dies, right? And then the girl's like right there. So he grabs the girl and she's like, oh, how'd you do that? He's like, oh, they were both poisoned.

• 58:59Speaker 01

  I spent years, uh, building my immunity to this poison. See what I'm saying? This guy was a planner. That's why you won.

• 59:07Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 59:08Speaker 01

  So if you're a planner, you'll probably win.

• 59:10Jocko Willink?

  Planning is important.

• 59:11Speaker 01

  Very important.

• 59:12Jocko Willink?

  As is anecdotes to whatever poison you're talking about.

• 59:16Speaker 01

  You know, my point is, and has always been, these lessons are everywhere. If you keep your eyes open, they're everywhere.

• 59:22Jocko Willink?

  Who's in that movie?

• 59:23Speaker 01

  Oh, Kerry Elwes is his name.

• 59:26Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 59:26Speaker 01

  And, uh, you know, some various other.

• 59:29Jocko Willink?

  We have a lot of knowledge up in that brain of yours that just has no real purpose.

• 59:34Speaker 01

  You know, the movie Saw, remember Saw?

• 59:37Jocko Willink?

  You know, I know the movie, eh, but I've never watched one.

• 59:39Speaker 01

  Anyway, it's the guy from, from the first Saw.

• 59:42Jocko Willink?

  Okay. More knowledge just thrown out there for the world to appreciate.

• 59:48Speaker 01

  Amen. It's all, it's all part of it.

• 59:52Jocko Willink?

  Uh, next section, analysis of time available. Time available refers to many factors during the operations plan, during the operations process, plan, prepare, execute, and assess. The four categories that commander considers include planning and preparation, operations, next higher echelons, timeline, enemy timeline. Kind of think about that enemy timeline. Important thing to think about. Can we move fast enough that we disrupt their timeline? We don't want to give them time to set up. That's another thing that I didn't talk about when I talked about the importance of time and managing time and understanding time and that you don't get a second chance with time. Is that when you have an opportunity to disrupt your enemy,

• 1:00:37Jocko Willink?

  the more time you give them, the less disruptive it will be. That's why when you're doing jujitsu and you, you know, you know how the arm lock is there for a second, but then you, you, you don't go because you're want, wanting it to be more perfect and then it's gone.

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:00:56Jocko Willink?

  And it's also means when someone passes your guard, the time to escape that new position is as soon as it happens, not when they get a breath and settle and put the weight.

• 1:01:12Jocko Willink?

  Next section, analysis of civil considerations. Civil considerations include the influences of man-made infrastructure, civilian institutions and attitudes, activities of civilian leaders, populations and organizations within an area of operations with regard to the conduct of military operations. And the questions you ask are, how do civilian considerations affect the operation? How does the operation affect civilians? How does the company build national will in its area of operations? And the reason I wanted to highlight that is when we're making decisions, you have to think about the impacts beyond just your team and the enemy team.

• 1:01:53Jocko Willink?

  Right? So if you're in business and you have the opportunity to take out a competitor, but whatever, that competitor employs a bunch of people in a certain area and you take them out. Well, what does that do to your reputation? How, and you just shut them down? Like that's the kind of thing you need to think about. What, think about the other effects to, for lack of a better word, the civilian population. And it's something in the military you get trained very specifically to consider all the time. That's, that's why I wanted to bring it up. Some of the things that they point out inside of the, inside of the civilian considerations,

• 1:02:33Jocko Willink?

  ethnic dynamics, organizations of influence, patterns, leaders and influencers, which I know you're one of those, right? An influencer? And then economic environment. So those are some of the things you need to think about.

• 1:02:50Jocko Willink?

  Getting into the course of action development.

• 1:02:55Jocko Willink?

  Course of action development. The purpose of a course of action development is to determine one or more ways to accomplish the mission consistent with the battalion commander's intent. And you don't need to worry about the commander's battalion intent if you didn't get the mission from them. But you've got to look at any mission you've got, anything you're trying to achieve. What various courses of action can we utilize? Course of action is, is, is really.

• 1:03:19Jocko Willink?

  How do I want to use this word fun? But I always found the course of action debate, right? Cause you got this guy wants to do it this way and this guy wants to do it another way. And there's always a little debate about how we're going to do this. Since I took so many leadership lessons over the years from watching or being a part of those various course of action debates.

• 1:03:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. Wait, why do you like it? Cause it's all creative or whatever.

• 1:03:43Jocko Willink?

  Because it's, it's a real good problem solving drill. And it's also a really good leadership drill because you can watch the dynamics of yourself and other people. And when, you know, when I say, no, this is the best way to do it. You're like, no, I like my way. And we get into a fight about it and all of a sudden I'm like, I'm ordering you to do it my way. And now you're pissed off and it's a disaster. So course of action development is like a really cool leadership experiment that happens. And on top of that, it's a very cool problem solving because you know, there's more than one ways to skin a cat. And, and I'll tell you that statement that I just made is a very important statement to understand. There's more than one way to skin a cat. True statement. And let me tell you, when you watch people develop course of actions and try and select

• 1:04:28Jocko Willink?

  them, you would swear that there's only one way. Because everyone has their way and that's how they want to do it. And the reality is if you go into it thinking, eh, you know what? Echo's way might be cool. Lace's way might be cool. Dave's way might be cool. Doesn't really matter to me. It's all good. If you go in with that attitude, you're already starting off on the right foot. Let me put it to you that way. If you go in with, oh, I'm looking at this problem and I see the premier solution.

• 1:04:57Speaker 01

  That's an awesome way.

• 1:04:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Some of the, some of the criteria for a course of action should be suitable.

• 1:05:09Jocko Willink?

  If executed, the course of action accomplishes the mission legally and ethically while consistent with the battalion commander's concept and intent. That, that's like one of those obvious things you're talking about. Like yes, the course of action should complete the mission, should be feasible, meaning the company has the technical and tactical skills and resources to accomplish the course of action with the available time, space, resources and available capabilities. That one's real obvious, acceptable.

• 1:05:34Jocko Willink?

  Military advantage gained by executing the course of action must justify the cost in resources, especially casualty. Yes. Distinguishable, this one's a little bit important. If more than one course of action is developed, does it differ significantly from the other solutions? So is it truly different, or is it six and one, half dozen the other? And believe me, I watch people fight about six and one, half dozen the other, all the time. And is it complete? Does the course of action cover the operational factors of who, what, where, when, why? So, those are the things you're looking at, and I think, as you pointed out earlier, those are some of the things that are just, for lack of a better word, kind of obvious,

• 1:06:18Jocko Willink?

  and yet, worth reviewing. Worth keeping in your back pocket, worth teaching to your subordinates. Might be real obvious to you, but your subordinates might not see that as super obvious. Analysis of course of action begins with friendly and enemy course of action. And this is where they start talking about using a war game. This is the, and then they say, "War gaming is the process of determining what if factors of the overall operations. The object is to determine what can go wrong and what decision the commander likely will have to make as a result." So this is war gaming, which is saying, "Hey, what if this happens? What if that happens?"

• 1:07:00Jocko Willink?

  And you have to look at your course of actions, and you have to try and poke holes in them. That's why it's good not to have yes-men on your team, because if you come up with a plan, you got a bunch of yes-men, they're just like, "Sounds great, boss." When what you really want them to do is get out daggers and try and stab that plan and poke holes in it. That's what you want! The best way for the commander to war game is to start at the company's current location and go through the mission from start to finish, or start at a critical point, such as the objective or engagement area. So you'll break the thing down, phase by phase, and say, "Okay, what could go wrong here? What could go wrong here? What could go wrong here?" And you know what to do, you challenge your team. You say, "Look, I think my plan is perfect.

• 1:07:44Jocko Willink?

  Who thinks they could poke a hole in this plan?" Right? Give them a little incentive to try and poke holes, because otherwise, they're gonna go easy on you, and you do not want that.

• 1:07:58Jocko Willink?

  Goes on to course of action, comparison and selection. If the commander has developed more than one course of action, the commander must compare them by weighing specific advantages, disadvantages, strengths and weaknesses of each as noted during the war game.

• 1:08:15Jocko Willink?

  These attributes may pertain to the accomplishment of the company's purpose, the use of the terrain, the destruction of the enemy, or other aspect of the operation the commander believes to be important.

• 1:08:28Jocko Willink?

  Very straightforward, very obvious. You take your two... It's funny how often you have to actually say, "Well, let's figure out which one is better." You know what I mean? Have you ever been, I mean, you know, you're planning something with your wife? And someone has to say, "Well, let's actually figure out which one of these is the smarter way to do this." This happens all the time.

• 1:08:52Jocko Willink?

  You have to make that, you know, we have to be conscious of that.

• 1:08:56Jocko Willink?

  The command, and then at the step four, by the way, we're on step four now. The commander initiates movement. Step four is initiate movement. The commander initiates movement necessary to continue the mission preparation or to posture the company for starting the mission.

• 1:09:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Step five is conduct reconnaissance. Right? Step five is conduct reconnaissance. What does that mean? You're going to go and gather intelligence. You're going to find out if the intelligence that you're gathering actually supports the plan that you've come up with and supports the other information that you've been given. One thing that I'll say is, sometimes when we're not, sometimes conducting reconnaissance

• 1:09:37Jocko Willink?

  is simply a step in a certain direction. Right? So, let's talk about the business world. Let's say you want to move into a new market area. Well, yeah, you can conduct a reconnaissance by gathering data, you know? "Oh, well, we think this is a good market area. Let's gather some data about who lives there and what the demographic is and if they align with what it is that we're trying to do." So, that's sort of gathering information, right? It's not really reconnaissance yet. But sometimes just making a step in that direction, you don't necessarily have to send out a recon element, right? You can say, "Okay."

• 1:10:14Jocko Willink?

  You know, I was talking about this. You want to put a market? You want to go into this area? Put a kiosk out there. Right? Put a kiosk out there and see what kind of business the kiosk does. Before you buy real estate, before you rent real estate, before you hire, you know, 14 employees to work in this air, in this building that you're, no. Put a kiosk there. See if there's any traction. So, all I'm saying is sometimes instead of reconnaissance, you're just taking a small step in that direction and then you're opening your feedback loop and seeing if it supports the course of action that you're planning to take.

• 1:10:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. Wait, so. Okay, so for example, you know how like if you, um, you want to, I don't know, you want to start a

• 1:10:57Speaker 01

  flower delivery service, right? And it, what it does is, instead of flowers, you get fruit, right? I know, there's a company called like Edible something, but anyway, let's say you have that idea. And then you, instead of necessarily looking, oh, is there a market? The first thing you do is you see if anyone else is doing that already.

• 1:11:19Jocko Willink?

  That's a good plan.

• 1:11:20Speaker 01

  Is that like?

• 1:11:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's more, to me, that's more like gathering intelligence. We're looking at data, we're seeing who else is doing this. We Google and we see if anyone's delivering flowers that is actually fruit, which I guess is just a whole

• 1:11:33Speaker 01

  Thing.

• 1:11:33Jocko Willink?

  Thing.

• 1:11:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's more, that's more of an intelligence gathering thing to me. Uh, maybe a reconnaissance would be posting, you know, posting a website that says, um, you know, fruit flowers here. Click here for more information. Are you interested in fruit flowers? And then you see what kind of interest you get. That's not a great example. I'm trying to think of, you know, what you could do is you could do the kiosk thing. Right? Put the kiosk thing outside this supermarket and say, hey, fruit flower, uh, food, food basket flowers.

• 1:12:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's more, it's, so it's actual, it's almost like you're, it's part execution.

• 1:12:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yes, good way of putting it. Instead of doing full execution, it's an iterative decision-making process that I wrote in Leadership Strategy and Tactics. You're gonna make a small step in that direction. That's what I'm trying to say. These small steps that you take are a form of reconnaissance. Okay, gotcha. A small step of execution is a form of reconnaissance in many ways. You know, if you're, if you're gonna approach a target, well, while you're approaching the target, look, you sent a recon team in there, that's cool, but then you send the assault force in there, well, that's, you're, you're gathering information. You're not necessarily going to 100% execute just because you got on the ground. Yeah. You're gonna move forward and go, okay, we're doing a better assessment. Oh, we're seeing what kind of reaction we're getting. We're seeing the village's lights are still

• 1:12:56Jocko Willink?

  off so that our target building isn't disturbed. All that is actually happening. It's part of the process. It is a reconnaissance, even though it's part of execution. Yeah, kind of testing the waters in a way. So that's step five. Step six is complete the plan. You utilize this information that you gather through your reconnaissance or through your minor steps of execution to complete the plan and say, yep, this is gonna work. This is how we're gonna do it. And this is where it gets a little confusing because now they're saying you issue the operations order of what we're gonna actually do. So, the op-ord precisely and concisely explains both the commander's intent and the concept of how the commander envisions the company

• 1:13:38Jocko Willink?

  accomplishing the mission. The orders not contain unnecessary information. The op-ord is delivered quickly and in a manner allowing subordinates to concentrate on understanding the commander's vision and not just copying what the commander says verbatim. Yeah, the reason I said this is a little bit confusing because we're kind of in trying to explain the fact that execution can be a form of reconnaissance. Well, obviously, if you're gonna conduct an assault, you're gonna give a brief before you go on the assault. That's what this is. So it kind of out of that context, it doesn't make sense, except for to say, once you're in the field, you definitely, you know, you get in a perimeter, you get in your final area before you launch the assault, you'll say, hey, here's some

• 1:14:23Jocko Willink?

  changes. Here's what we're seeing. Here's where a guard post was that we didn't see before. So you can make some final planning changes while you're in the field, but you've already issued your op-ord at that point.

• 1:14:36Jocko Willink?

  It also says the commander completes the order with a confirmation brief at a minimum. Each subordinate leader should be able to back brief the company's mission and commander's intent, the immediate higher commander's intent, their own task and purpose, and the time they will issue their own units op board. So when you get done briefing and you get done telling everyone what's going to do, what they're going to do, or what you're all going to do, then you have some of the subordinate leaders say, alright, what's your mission Echo? Alright, what's your mission Leif? Okay, what's your mission Dave? Even though I gave the brief of what we're going to do, then I say, okay Echo, what are you guys doing? You say, we're going to insert here, we're going to go there. And so everyone can kind of brief me back, not just what the overall mission was, not just what your mission is, but also the higher headquarters,

• 1:15:18Jocko Willink?

  what the higher headquarters intent is, so I make sure we all have a good idea around that.

• 1:15:26Jocko Willink?

  And then we get to the last of these steps. Step eight, supervise and refine. The final step of the troop leading procedures is crucial. After issuing the op board, the commander and subordinate leaders ensure the required activities and tasks are completed in a timely manner prior to mission execution. Supervision is the primary responsibility of all leaders. Both officers and NCOs must check everything important for mission accomplishment. And I guess this is where

• 1:16:03Jocko Willink?

  you take this and you take it one step further to commencing the execution of the operation, and you'll find that you're going to, even once the mission is starting its execution, you're still going to supervise it. And obviously, you're still going to refine that mission as things unfold. So there's a very definitive separation between planning and preparation, but it's pretty easy to take that planning and preparation forward, especially from the perspective that just because we made this plan doesn't mean we're not going to Very, leave the plan, once we deviate from the plan, once we get in the field.

• 1:16:45Jocko Willink?

  So it's very important to understand that just because you've launched, doesn't mean you've stopped refining the plan. You still need to refine the plan, you still make adjustments, and you have to have the humility to do that. And you also have to brief the team that, look, when we get out there, there may be some adjustments that come. And that is why it is important that you don't make the most rigid plan ever. The most rigid plan ever, watch out for those rigid plans. Those are not ideal. And then we get into this section, like the final section, which is preparations, which, security operations, I mentioned that. And then we get into rehearsals.

• 1:17:29Jocko Willink?

  Always underemphasized. Rehearsals are critical.

• 1:17:38Jocko Willink?

  They don't even, they don't really sort of emphasize rehearsals as much as I think they should. They say, and I'm not reading the whole thing, but it says commander, the commander uses well-planned, efficiently-run rehearsals to accomplish the following. Reinforce training and increase proficiency in critical tasks.

• 1:18:01Jocko Willink?

  That, that's kind of not that big of a deal, right? Reveal weaknesses or problems in the plan, leading to more refinement of the plan, or development of additional branch plans. Okay. That is a big deal. That's actually a huge deal, and they just say like, it's number two, right? Reveal some weakness. No, man. This is, this is it, dude. This is where you figure out whether your plan is good or not, by running rehearsals and seeing what happens. And this is where you refine it.

• 1:18:33Jocko Willink?

  Next is integrate the actions of subordinate elements. They're saying that like, that's no big deal. Picture anything that you do in your life, and you're practicing it, and then someone else that you don't know shows up to get in the game. That's not easy. There's stuff that needs to get sorted out. And they're just saying like, oh, you're just going to integrate that, as if there's any other way to do this efficiently, there isn't. You've got to rehearse, you've got to have people walk through how we're going to do this.

• 1:19:01Jocko Willink?

  Next is confirm coordination requirements between the platoon and adjacent units. Again, we're just throwing it out there. We're just confirming. There's some things you didn't even know existed until you did the rehearsal. It's not just confirmation. There's actual things you won't even figure out.

• 1:19:19Jocko Willink?

  Next is improve each soldier's understanding of the concept of operation, the direct fire, fire plan, anticipated contingencies and possible actions and reactions for various situations that may arise during the the operation. This is hilarious to me because it says improve the soldiers, each soldier's understanding. I'm going to tell you right now, you take someone and send them through a brief, those young, inexperienced soldiers, SEALs, Marines, they get done with that brief, they don't have a freaking clue. You gotta take them out and have them walk through this thing before they understand it. Hell, never mind those junior guys. There's some times where I look at the faces of the senior, you know, some lieutenant.

• 1:20:04Jocko Willink?

  And even during the brief, they don't really, they're briefing it. The platoon chief is briefing it. Sometimes he doesn't even understand exactly what's gonna happen until you get out there and rehearse it. So, so they're acting like these things are all additive. Like these are sort of like, oh yeah, just a little icing on the cake. No, I'm telling you, this is the cake. This is the steak. This is the whole meal right here. I mean, it's not the whole meal. This is, this is a vast majority of the meal. Maybe it's not the drink, but it's, it's just about everything else.

• 1:20:38Speaker 01

  Is it the main course?

• 1:20:39Jocko Willink?

  It's absolutely the main course.

• 1:20:41Speaker 01

  I can see that.

• 1:20:42Jocko Willink?

  And they're making it like it's just a little.

• 1:20:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, it almost doesn't, because that's one of those deals where, you know, when you say, oh rehearsals, that's like, okay, maybe if you're talking about some play or some performance, you know, that you're gonna, okay rehearsals is sort of part of it traditionally. But, you know, even just like walkthroughs, right? When you talk about those or whatever, it's like, you don't really realize the value until you. Physically go through the situation, then you're like, oh damn, this is night and day. Cause just like how you're saying like, um, like your junior officers or whoever, when they're like, oh, yeah, I got, I got it. The brief, I got it. All good. Then when you go out there, you're, and when you, the first walkthrough, when it's like, oh, wait, like, bro, we don't got it. We gotta work on this thing.

• 1:21:26Jocko Willink?

  I was talking on EF online the other day and I was explaining, we were talking, I, I had done a whole thing. As a matter of fact, I'd done a whole thing about narcissism and how narcissism, like, we all know that's bad, but if you read the traits of being a narcissist, you'll read through them and be like, oh, that one stings a little bit. Oh, that one stings. Oh, I've, I've done that before. Cause there's things, it's like, it's your ego, right? It's an extreme ego. So we all have an ego. And that means that we all have some traits of a narcissist. And when you read those traits and you start paying attention to them, you're like, okay, it just, it's another tool to assess your own ego.

• 1:22:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. You wanna know a, a, a trait?

• 1:22:09Speaker 01

  Um, and this, this was because, yeah, I read about narcissism for whatever reason. I mean, that's why I, but I do. So, um, I even know the methods to deal with narcissism as well. There's like a psychological protocol.

• 1:22:21Jocko Willink?

  And that's the thing. I actually had to break it down because I started getting asked questions. And I said, listen, I'm not talking about a, a technically, just, uh, technically, um, assessed, like this person is an actual full-on narcissist, right? There's a different methodology that you have to, I'm talking about just, hey, you're kinda normal, run-of-the-mill, big ego person that, you know, we're in charge and, and you know, you need to listen to me.

• 1:22:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:47Jocko Willink?

  And so that's it. So, so that's the kind of narcissist I was talking about. But what are you talking about?

• 1:22:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, the real deal one. They're like clinically diagnosed narcissist person. I don't know if that's an actual thing or not, but like a, like a real narcissist. Anyway, so um, one of the like the telltale signs and it's not in the list of traits. It's more like on online. Okay, so there's ways to deal with narcissism, right? And there's ways not to deal with it. So um, and I'm not gonna go deep into that part of it. But one of the ways not to deal with it is to tell them, hey, you're a narcissist. Because a real narcissist has an element of pride with their narcissism. So they'll be like, well, yeah, cuz a real narcissist literally can't see why like they're not correct in the way they're thinking about themselves.

• 1:23:35Jocko Willink?

  So disturbing.

• 1:23:36Speaker 01

  It's like they for real think that everyone else sees the same thing as they do. You know, it's like it's literally that's what they think.

• 1:23:42Jocko Willink?

  So when you tell if you were narcissist and I was like, hey, Echo, you're such a narcissist. Your reaction would be?

• 1:23:47Speaker 01

  Regardless of what I'd say and how I'd behave on the inside, I would feel like, well, fuck. Yeah, cuz I'm dope. Like, I'm just, I'm just seeing the truth really about myself. Like, I know you guys see it too, no matter what. You guys are just hating or whatever. That's what I would feel about it. I wouldn't feel embarrassed.

• 1:24:03Jocko Willink?

  They're jealous.

• 1:24:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know.

• 1:24:05Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's so sketch.

• 1:24:06Speaker 01

  And as far as like the differentiator is like a normal person, if someone's like, hey, like you're, you're kind of a narcissist. A normal person would be like, oh, like, like, don't call me that. Like, I'm not a narcissist. On the inside, they'd feel that regardless of how they'd behave.

• 1:24:21Jocko Willink?

  A real narcissist is like, of course, I mean, you're jealous. Of course I am cuz look, I'm better than you.

• 1:24:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz exactly right. So it's like, they, of course, they don't care about the language, you know? Because you call narcissist, big ego, you think you're better than everyone. You can say all those things. They all mean the same thing to a narcissist. And it means like, well, yeah, I think that because that's true. Like, everyone knows that, kind of a feeling on the inside, you know? Regardless of what they say or or do.

• 1:24:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:49Speaker 01

  So anyway, again, that's like how not to deal with a narcissist. You know how like, like if you, if I were to be like, hey, Jocko, you're freaking, um, you're, you're, uh, you give up too easy or something like that, right?

• 1:25:03Speaker 01

  Sometimes that helps people when you're like, hey, you just, you just give up too easy. Or you're kind of like, you're just being weak minded or whatever. Like, sure, their ego will be like, screw you, but they might go home and think about it, be like, because I don't want to be weak minded. I don't want to be, I don't want to give up too, too early, you know? But a narcissist, it's the same thing. It's like, hey, you're a narcissist, you shouldn't be narcissistic like this kind of thing, right? It's essentially trying to help them, but the thing is, it like adds fuel to the fire. See what I'm saying? So you can't like, you literally can't deal with a narcissist like that.

• 1:25:35Jocko Willink?

  So how do you deal with it?

• 1:25:36Speaker 01

  Uh, well, there's all kinds of techniques.

• 1:25:38Jocko Willink?

  Give me like one positive technique.

• 1:25:41Speaker 01

  Posi- uh.

• 1:25:42Jocko Willink?

  Or one, one actual technique.

• 1:25:44Speaker 01

  It's called gray rocking.

• 1:25:46Jocko Willink?

  What does that mean?

• 1:25:46Speaker 01

  So gray rocking is kind of like, it's basically letting all their, what, all their techniques just fall and not get a reaction from you.

• 1:25:55Jocko Willink?

  Why is it called gray rocking?

• 1:25:57Speaker 01

  Because I'm like super forgettable, super like, you don't get, so a narcissist

• 1:26:04Speaker 01

  basically gets their power from your response. So if you don't give them a positive or negative response, you just give, you're like, oh, oh, cool, normal face all day. Yeah, but not even overdoing that. You kind of give them like an appropriate response and then that's sort of it, you know? So it's called, yeah, it's called gray rock. There's all these weird techniques and names, yeah.

• 1:26:26Jocko Willink?

  I like that.

• 1:26:27Speaker 01

  It's surprising. It works very well too, by the way.

• 1:26:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that, that sounds like a good way to deal with it. You're not adding fuel to the fire.

• 1:26:34Speaker 01

  Nope. In fact, you're extinguishing the fire because fuel to the fire is positive or negative reaction. It's any reaction, anything that feeds the idea that like what I say and do affects the world so hugely, you know? So this person getting mad or happy or impressed or whatever, like any like strong reaction is like, hell yeah, I'm going to keep, keep it up, whatever I'm doing, you know?

• 1:27:01Jocko Willink?

  Track. The reason I was talking about narcissists, well, the reason that we're talking about it because I was explaining that I talked about it on EF online. And then I went back and talked about the next.

• 1:27:14Jocko Willink?

  Session, I talked about, well, we talked about narcissism and ego is too big, but we seldom talk about, you know, lack of confidence. And the reason that we, the reason that I lean towards talking about staying humble and checking your ego, the reason that I lean towards that is because that's the majority of the time, that's the problem. Why? Because I'm talking to leaders and how did leaders end up in leadership positions? Because they had confidence. And so the tendency is that confidence is going to grow out of control. It's not a tendency that someone gets to a leadership position through confidence, then all of a sudden it falls apart. That can happen. It does happen. You can also get young leaders that are getting put into a leadership position that lack confidence. So sometimes you do have people, their confidence gets hurt, their confidence doesn't exist, and you have

• 1:27:55Jocko Willink?

  to improve their confidence. So I was talking about various things where you want to improve the confidence of yourself or the confidence of your subordinates. And, and one of the things that I talked about, like, let's say you have a subordinate that has to present, and they're not good at presenting, they, they blew, they blew another gig where they were supposed to be presenting to a client, and they messed it up, and now their confidence is shot, they're worried about talking. But so you've got a job of getting them trained up. So one of the things I talked about, this is going back to rehearsals, which is where we got there in the first place, is, you know, I said, you, you make them rehearse, you know, do, do your presentation to me, Echo. And then what I say is, hey, Echo, now you're going to do your presentation, and I'm gonna, you know, make something go

• 1:28:38Jocko Willink?

  wrong. Whether it's, I, you know, I, I turn off your presentation, right? You got slides up there, I just turn it off. And, and you just react to it. And you, and what you'll do is you'll come up with a standard operating procedure, where, you know, the slides go black, and you go, oh, it looks like I got some technical difficulty. Let me take a second to try and figure this out. Instead of not knowing what to do, and it becomes a brainlock situation, or, and then I'll also make you, you know, mess up, mess up a word, mess up the pronunciation of a word. So when you're trying to say flag, instead of saying flag, you say flickle, and you're like, hey, you know, we want to make sure we put up the right flickle. You're gonna have to excuse me on that. I don't even know where that word came from,

• 1:29:23Jocko Willink?

  but there it is. I meant to say flag. So you just rehearse what you're gonna say when you mess up. And that way, when you mess up, you're ready for it. You're a little more ready for it. So, so this idea of rehearsals being sort of a additive measure, because I'll tell you what, if you were doing a presentation and I ran you through these drills, you wouldn't just be a little bit better if something went wrong. You would be 10 times better in handling that situation. You've already been there. You've already seen it. So rehearsals are something that you as a leader should focus on to such a high level because they are so beneficial, not just as an additive, but in actually bringing together

• 1:30:06Jocko Willink?

  and consolidating the plan inside of people's heads, how they're gonna react, what they're gonna do during various contingencies. It is a powerful tool. And in the SEAL teams, what we used to say was one-third planning, one-third preparation, one-third rehearsal. The Army has something, what is it? It's like one-third, two-thirds, which is one-third of the time planning and then the other two-thirds are for, for people to, what do they say? Prepare and prep. Or I guess those are the same things. But they don't put that as big as emphasis in that, in that saying as we did, which was one-third planning, one-third preparation, one-third rehearsals.

• 1:30:51Jocko Willink?

  Maybe they mean that inherently, but we actually say it in the SEAL teams.

• 1:30:57Speaker 01

  That's where, yeah, cuz when you think about it, and I sort of realize this when you're, when you talk about like training, whether it be police or any, or even fighters and stuff like that, where if you think of high-level performance, like industries, we'll say, the NFL, we'll say, right? Millions of dollars per person, by the way, NBA, whatever.

• 1:31:24Speaker 01

  Think about their situation. It's like, how much of their time do they spend actually performing?

• 1:31:32Speaker 01

  Very little compared to training.

• 1:31:33Jocko Willink?

  Compared to how much.

• 1:31:34Speaker 01

  Bro, they're training all day, every day, off season, springtime, no matter, you know, the season's what, 13 games long? Meanwhile, they're training, training, training, training, training, training. And then what kind of training do they do? It's all rehearsals, essentially. I mean, sure, there's some academic stuff for sure. But as far as when you go to practice as a football player or basketball player, what are you doing?

• 1:31:53Jocko Willink?

  Rehearsals.

• 1:31:54Speaker 01

  Rehearsals all day, going full speed, actually, but it's all rehearsals. And they're doing that. It's probably like a 10 to 1, really.

• 1:32:01Jocko Willink?

  What's the ratio, what's the ratio of rehearsals versus scrimmage?

• 1:32:06Speaker 01

  Right, but, okay, so scrimmage.

• 1:32:08Jocko Willink?

  Because those are two different things, we have to admit right now, right?

• 1:32:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, kind of. It depends on what you mean, but, because a scrimmage is like a, um, it's like an active rehearsal.

• 1:32:17Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:32:17Speaker 01

  Because you're, the, all practice is for a game. That's it. That's what it is. You got the game, that's the performance part of it. Like in, in the, you know, your situation, it's a mission and an operation, whatever. Everything else is training. So scrimmage is, yeah, it's a rehearsal, but it's just more dynamic. It's like with a resistant enemy, you know? And then there's like a walkthrough, which is kind of maybe like more traditional.

• 1:32:40Jocko Willink?

  More like a rehearsal.

• 1:32:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:32:42Jocko Willink?

  Because you gotta do all, right?

• 1:32:45Speaker 01

  All, yes.

• 1:32:45Jocko Willink?

  You gotta be ready for that. You, you gotta be ready for that real, interactive, what'd you say, enemy? You gotta be ready for someone that's actually gonna give you resistance, just like jujitsu. Like, you gotta learn the move, you gotta drill the move, that's a rehearsal, but then you gotta do the move in actual situations so that you're ready to use it in a fight.

• 1:33:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then you got what's called the dress rehearsal. I guess that's more with like, plays and stuff, right? Dress rehearsal, where you go out in your equipment.

• 1:33:13Jocko Willink?

  Do everything the way it's gonna be, live.

• 1:33:16Speaker 01

  See what I'm saying? So it's all kind, it's all sorted in the same bucket, you know, as training, but it's, it's essentially you're going through the motions as close as you can to the real deal, you know? And actually, it's a spectrum, really. Sometimes it's like you just go through walkthroughs, right? That's a big one.

• 1:33:31Jocko Willink?

  Exactly. We do that in the military. You go do walkthroughs. You don't, you don't even have your weapon with you. You're just in a pair of shorts and you're walking around like where we tape out the shape of the building we're gonna hit and everyone walks around, okay, this is what we're gonna do, you're gonna here, you're gonna there. But then we will do sometimes like the next level, hey, bring your radios. So now you got everyone with a radio on, so we can make little comps. And then maybe you'll do like some walkthroughs with your weapon. You're probably not going to get fully kitted up, but you will do once you're kitted up like a full inspection.

• 1:34:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:04Jocko Willink?

  And that's actually the next section of this.

• 1:34:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, but at the end of the day, though, to your point is it's all rehearsals, really. Even like the role play stuff that you say it's a whole nother thing, but it's yet another form of a rehearsal.

• 1:34:18Jocko Willink?

  Oh, for sure. Role play is another form of rehearsal. Yeah, yeah. Oh, you're saying that during a role play, you might not know the outcome and you have a little bit of a resistant opponent, we'll say.

• 1:34:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that is, that is a rehearsal. It's a rehearsal of problems.

• 1:34:33Jocko Willink?

  And this is what I was just getting to is pre combat checks and pre combat inspections is the last thing. Pre combat checks and pre combat inspections are critical for the success of the missions. Pre combat checks and inspections must be tailored to the specific unit and mission requirements. One of the best ways to ensure pre combat checks and pre combat inspections are complete and thorough is with Echo Charles Full Dress Rehearsals. So there you go. That is something that, you know, takes it to the next level. And then after rehearsals, obviously you've done with your brief and that's the last step. And now we are going to execute.

• 1:35:14Jocko Willink?

  And that's it. That's, you know, a quick run through of this document, this one section of this one document. And like I said, these are some good guidelines. They're definitely good things to think about. You can use them as a framework to think through how you assess and how you decide courses of action and how you communicate up and down the chain of command. But you're gonna, you know, you listen to this and it allows you to sort of customize. These thought patterns to make them fit what it is that you do more specifically. But I will say it is good, even though these things seem obvious, it is good to write them down and put together some kind of a checklist that you can go through so you don't miss things.

• 1:35:57Jocko Willink?

  And so that when you have a subordinate that you bring on board that you want to take your job, which is your goal, to work yourself out of a job, how much easier does it make the process to say, alright, here's the 14 things that we think about while we're doing this phase of planning. Boom, there you go. And I'll tell you what, when you write stuff down, when you develop curriculum, when you develop standard operating procedures and then you share those, you get better at them. So that will allow you to go out,

• 1:36:30Jocko Willink?

  execute properly,

• 1:36:33Jocko Willink?

  and get the job done.

• 1:36:37Jocko Willink?

  Speaking of getting the job done, Echo Charles,

• 1:36:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:36:40Jocko Willink?

  You know, we're, we're all out here trying to get the job done on a personal level as well. We're trying to hold the line. We're trying to stay on the path.

• 1:36:50Jocko Willink?

  Can you help us?

• 1:36:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure. I can tell you what I do. That'll help. If that'll help. So we are, I am, we are very disciplined with our dosages of joint warfare, krill, super krill. And now the D vitamins, where I'm going all day, not all day, but every day.

• 1:37:13Jocko Willink?

  Every day.

• 1:37:13Speaker 01

  How many of those you take?

• 1:37:15Jocko Willink?

  I take one in the morning, one at night.

• 1:37:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:16Jocko Willink?

  What are you doing?

• 1:37:17Speaker 01

  Two, boom, more with a mix.

• 1:37:19Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:37:19Speaker 01

  Just two, one hit in the morning.

• 1:37:21Jocko Willink?

  One hit in the morning.

• 1:37:22Speaker 01

  Good to go. Yes. So, and man, this is, this is a good one. And I said this plenty of times before, but I'll say it again. It's a big deal where try, take joint warfare and krill oil consistently, go one month, I don't know, two months, whatever, and then try get off it. Okay, yeah, very dangerous, you know, but a really critical and impactful, should I say, proving scenario. Because I'll get off it because of whatever, you know, I'll forget one day or I'll be like, oh, I forgot to do it. I'll do it later. And then, you know, whatever. And then before I know it, it's like, Brad, like two weeks.

• 1:38:00Jocko Willink?

  I got a question for you, bro. Why don't you just put the supplements that you take by your toothbrush? And when you wake up in the morning and brush your teeth, before you brush your teeth, you take your hitters as needed. And then also, before you go to bed at night, you brush your teeth, you take what you're supposed to take. Well, I don't even understand why we're having this conversation. You're a forty year old man.

• 1:38:24Speaker 01

  Allegedly. I'll tell you what happened when I tried to do that. And I say tried, like,

• 1:38:29Jocko Willink?

  You're older than forty, aren't you?

• 1:38:31Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 1:38:31Jocko Willink?

  How old are you?

• 1:38:32Speaker 01

  And, you know, that's classified.

• 1:38:34Jocko Willink?

  Forty-two?

• 1:38:35Speaker 01

  Forty-two, yeah.

• 1:38:35Jocko Willink?

  Forty-two. You're a forty-two year old man. Even worse.

• 1:38:38Speaker 01

  I know, but it's bad.

• 1:38:39Jocko Willink?

  Do you brush your teeth every day?

• 1:38:41Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 1:38:43Jocko Willink?

  So why not just add this step that takes an extra twenty seconds?

• 1:38:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, it takes more than twenty seconds. This is why. Because look, if I'm gonna, if I'm gonna sort out that, well, what do you call it? Put them, put them out? Whatever, like lay them out, lay out my whole thing.

• 1:38:58Jocko Willink?

  To have them staged there.

• 1:38:59Speaker 01

  That's what, okay, the staging, the staging. Okay, yeah, so.

• 1:39:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I don't like pour them out the night before. No, I pick up the thing, boom, eat it, eat it, eat it. Boom, we're done.

• 1:39:07Speaker 01

  So I started doing that, but I'm like, okay, I'm not, I'm not gonna keep, keep these bottles in the bathroom with my toothbrush, because that's sort of not where they go in my house. They go in the cabinet, you know, whatever. I know, I know. But I'm just saying, this is what happened to me when I went through that process. I was like, well, it doesn't make sense. It, you know, I go downstairs anyway to the cabinet every day. So.

• 1:39:28Jocko Willink?

  Apparently not, because you're missing.

• 1:39:30Speaker 01

  I know. See, you talk about the reality of it. I'm saying, well, this is what happened. So anyway, I was like, okay, for me to stage them by my toothbrush, tooth, tooth, toothbrush, took more work than me remembering at, you know, in the morning when I come down. So I just stopped doing it. Then of course I forgot.

• 1:39:47Speaker 01

  It turned out not to be as true, but nonetheless.

• 1:39:50Jocko Willink?

  Well, you're teaching a lot of people right now.

• 1:39:51Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, cuz Brett, I'm proud.

• 1:39:53Jocko Willink?

  Take the extra step.

• 1:39:53Speaker 01

  Okay, yes.

• 1:39:54Jocko Willink?

  Put them by your toothbrush.

• 1:39:55Speaker 01

  Now, this is what I did. So, okay, so, you know, I have this wind down routine at night and a big part of it is cleaning like the the whole kitchen, just cleaning it. Whether it's messy or not messy, just clean it. It's part of the routine nightly, right? So I put everything away. So if I leave those bottles out, it's like I didn't really clean. I'm I'm not saying this is what I'm thinking at the time. I'm thinking back on it.

• 1:40:18Jocko Willink?

  Dang, OCD.

• 1:40:19Speaker 01

  So, no, no, trust me. If you knew the the actual process, it's not OCD at all. But

• 1:40:27Speaker 01

  if I'm just like, hey, I'll clean the kitchen, sure, but I'll straight up just leave those out. Leave those out right there at the on the counter. So it's essentially staging, just like you did, but just not with my toothbrush, just at the counter where I'm going anyway in the morning, every single morning. You see what I'm saying? Anyway, that's what I start to do. It's I'm I believe with 100% certainty that that achieves what you're achieving with a staging of a toothbrush.

• 1:40:50Jocko Willink?

  Okay, and yet you do not achieve 100% certainty in taking your supplements when you're supposed to.

• 1:40:55Speaker 01

  I'm back. I'm on it now, though. I have been for a little bit. And brother, seriously, the difference is night, night and day. And here's the thing, sometimes, sometimes, really, when you're like in the game or whatever, and maybe you don't crush your joints or nothing like that, like you can kind of get by. Like you can like all just wa- I was just warming up a little bit. I'm like, my this this shoulder right here, it's like this, just this little real specific part of my shoulder.

• 1:41:17Jocko Willink?

  I get that right there, too. Um, if I do, this is how specific weighted dips. I get this little.

• 1:41:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, hell, yeah. Yeah, it's we, yeah, it's weird. It's like this weird little specific spot. And yes, with specific exercise, which is like when I do shoulder press, it doesn't hurt as much as if I do incline press, which is really weird. Because you think the shoulder, but either way, it's like, I'll just warm up some more, maybe rub it, you know, rub it and and stretch it out more or whatever. And then when you go back on the joint merfer and the krill oil, you're like, oh, bro, I don't even have to like do all that anymore. You know what I'm saying?

• 1:41:49Jocko Willink?

  Just ready for action.

• 1:41:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. And then so if you just apply that to your whole thing, it's like, bro, why not? You should consistently be on that. Keep you in the game big time.

• 1:41:59Jocko Willink?

  I recommend instead of cleaning your kitchen, staging me in your kitchen, so that when you go downstairs inevitably, then you can decide, oh, yeah, it's time for me to take my supplementation. I recommend in between your toothbrush and your toothpaste, there it is.

• 1:42:13Jocko Willink?

  Get it done. No factor, bruh.

• 1:42:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I, I can dig it. I can dig it. But hey, whatever your method.

• 1:42:20Jocko Willink?

  Are you a little OCD?

• 1:42:22Speaker 01

  No, I don't think so.

• 1:42:24Jocko Willink?

  What's the wind down routine that you're cleaning your kitchen?

• 1:42:26Speaker 01

  I think it's just like, like, that's just how, you know, you know, when you do something over and over and over again, it's just like, it's almost like more habit than OCD.

• 1:42:34Jocko Willink?

  What if it's like a long day and you've been editing?

• 1:42:39Speaker 01

  A hard, rigorous, brutal, brutal day of editing. Yeah, no, still, yeah.

• 1:42:44Jocko Willink?

  You still, let's just get it done.

• 1:42:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:46Jocko Willink?

  No matter what.

• 1:42:47Speaker 01

  I think it's like the process though. You know how like, you know how like kids, you, they want a bedtime story? I don't need a bedtime story, but.

• 1:42:54Jocko Willink?

  Somebody asked me like, well, you know, how do you figure, how did you figure out or why do you post stuff on social media? And I was like, oh, because I'm just a creature of habit. And that's what I, that's what I, that's the habit that I have right now. That's what I'm doing.

• 1:43:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:08Jocko Willink?

  No great, like, whatever, strategy.

• 1:43:12Speaker 01

  Or like, like, I'm do this for this. Yeah, exactly. Like the strategy, but I guess clean the kitchen is both because it's like functional as well.

• 1:43:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it is functional, clean the kitchen. We support it.

• 1:43:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:22Jocko Willink?

  Uh, so yes, that's what we're getting at. Take some supplementation, joint warfare, krill oil, take your vitamin D3.

• 1:43:31Jocko Willink?

  And you know, that way, maybe some cold water. See, I take the cold water.

• 1:43:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:35Jocko Willink?

  You know, it's interesting. I take the cold water during the day. Mm hmm.

• 1:43:39Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:43:40Jocko Willink?

  Okay. So anyways, get on that. Also, we got discipline go in cans. We got discipline going pills. We got discipline going powder. If you need that little psychological hitter to keep you rocking and rolling.

• 1:43:56Speaker 01

  Yes, and milk as well.

• 1:43:57Jocko Willink?

  Milk too, if you need some protein. Or if you just want dessert, because let's face it, sometimes you just want dessert.

• 1:44:04Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. Speaking of which, okay. So I see these videos that Pete and them at Origin are putting out and it's like the milk bar. Factory setup, development. Yeah, because I've had milk bars before and like for those.

• 1:44:21Jocko Willink?

  Kind of a game changer, right?

• 1:44:22Speaker 01

  Big, it's a big deal. Yes. So it, you know, like, okay, so I like, I like these candy bars. I don't eat them all the time. Actually, I barely eat candy bars. You know, like if a king size candy bar. Most things with peanut butter is going to be, you know, my, my kind of go to when I do go to those. So those are kind of like a dessert, right? I mean, maybe you think of dessert as like ice cream or some pie or something like this. But to me, a candy bar is.

• 1:44:53Jocko Willink?

  What's your favorite candy bar?

• 1:44:55Speaker 01

  Anything Reese's. Actually, there's these things called Reese's sticks. They're kind of like a Reese's, you know, so it's peanut butter, chocolate. But they're like, you know what Kit Kat is?

• 1:45:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:45:05Speaker 01

  So you know those.

• 1:45:06Jocko Willink?

  That was kind of one of my go-tos when I was a kid.

• 1:45:08Speaker 01

  Okay, so it's like a more robust.

• 1:45:10Jocko Willink?

  Kit Kat tasted cool in your mouth on like the hot summer, right?

• 1:45:15Speaker 01

  Sure, I guess. But it's like, you know, the makeup of a Kit Kat. It's like that, but just more robust. And it has the Reese's, the peanut butter and chocolate. That's right now my favorite one, but nonetheless, if you get a milk bar.

• 1:45:30Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:45:31Speaker 01

  It's essentially, it's not a Reese's stick because it's made up different, but it's a straight up candy bar.

• 1:45:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:37Speaker 01

  Straight up and it tastes like a candy bar.

• 1:45:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:39Speaker 01

  And here's the test, bro, you, and you know, we all have kids varying, varying levels of age. And so my son is three, will be four later this year, whatever.

• 1:45:49Jocko Willink?

  He'll tear into some milk bars.

• 1:45:50Speaker 01

  Right, and that's a test, like if he doesn't like, if he's like, hey, this isn't a candy bar. This is a health bar. He won't eat that, bro, he'll be like.

• 1:45:58Jocko Willink?

  We're not eating that then.

• 1:45:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, because it's not like he's unfamiliar with candy bars. Bro, he palms candy bars when, if he gets the opportunity or whatever. Bro, he'll sneak, he'll see where I put the milk bars in the freezer, by the way, which is another strategy. He'll see where I put, he's three, three years old, he see, and he'll go steal the milk bar. Straight up, steal them. Anyway, so these are legitimately dessert things, items. That are protein.

• 1:46:27Jocko Willink?

  Well, they're not out yet. We apologize, we're working on it. And everything here, plus the Jocka White Tea, Molk, Warrior Kid Molk, you can get it all at the Vitamin Shoppe or you can get it at originmaine.com.

• 1:46:39Jocko Willink?

  You can get it on Amazon too.

• 1:46:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's good.

• 1:46:41Jocko Willink?

  So it's out, it's out there.

• 1:46:43Speaker 01

  Good outfit. Also, jujitsu stuff, jujitsu slowly getting back into it, everybody, everybody got to, kind of, you know, it's one of those things, you sort of gotta.

• 1:46:52Jocko Willink?

  What do they call it? Essential activities?

• 1:46:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean regardless of, of certain policies, I guess, it's like, you know.

• 1:47:00Jocko Willink?

  Well, you gotta figure out how, who you can roll with.

• 1:47:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:03Jocko Willink?

  In your quarantine.

• 1:47:05Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah, fully.

• 1:47:07Jocko Willink?

  And then once you got that a lock, we're good.

• 1:47:08Speaker 01

  Yep, good to go. So you get a gi if you don't have one already, or even if you do have one already, get an Origin gi, made in America, hundred percent, and they're the best gis, hundred percent. Are those related, made in America, the best? Maybe, maybe not, nonetheless.

• 1:47:21Jocko Willink?

  I think I'm leaning towards yes.

• 1:47:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. So actually, no, there's like, what do you call it? The, the, the sum is greater than the, it's parts.

• 1:47:29Jocko Willink?

  Greater than the parts?

• 1:47:30Speaker 01

  Or, yeah, or whatever, because it's like made in America, that's something, it's the best, that's something, and it's the best because it's made in America. So the fact that it's made in America makes it even more of the best, you see what I'm saying?

• 1:47:41Jocko Willink?

  All right, I'm agreeing with your logic. I'm not following it, but I like the outcome.

• 1:47:45Speaker 01

  Okay, here, here you go. I'll, I'll, I'll put a finer point on it. If Pete grabbed one of his looms, probably more than one, went up to Washington State, right at the border of Canada, and made one of those gis, that gi would still be the best gi. It would still be the best. But it wouldn't be better than the one made in America because it's not made in America, you see what I'm saying? So it's the best regardless, but since it's made in America, it's even more the best, you see what I'm saying?

• 1:48:13Jocko Willink?

  Got it.

• 1:48:14Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying. Anyway, nonetheless, orjamine.com, you can get these things, plus denim jeans. Again, made in America, same deal, hundred percent, same deal.

• 1:48:22Jocko Willink?

  Plus boots, plus t-shirts, plus hoodies, plus beanies, but just all kind, if you need something, check it out. You might want to get something, you might want to get something that's made in America without compromise.

• 1:48:35Speaker 01

  Very true.

• 1:48:35Jocko Willink?

  Which is a bold statement. That's what we're doing.

• 1:48:39Speaker 01

  Yep. Also, Jaco has a store.

• 1:48:43Speaker 01

  JacoStore.com is where you can get more stuff apparel if you will shirts t-shirts hoodies hats lot of stuff back in stock man so you can get them now straight up I know I know in the past we've been sold out of this or that or whatever it's it's not like that anymore things are changing on the Jaco Store

• 1:49:03Jocko Willink?

  In a positive way

• 1:49:04Speaker 01

  In a positive way

• 1:49:05Jocko Willink?

  Echo is stepping up his game

• 1:49:07Speaker 01

  They're improving yes so anyway if you want discipline equals freedom you know things where you want to represent like on the path while you're on the path and you want to represent hardcore Defcore that's this is where you get the stuff JacoStore.com

• 1:49:21Jocko Willink?

  I like the way you did that

• 1:49:23Speaker 01

  Well you know it's one of those things you know it's true

• 1:49:26Jocko Willink?

  Also subscribe to this podcast if you want to go and leave some reviews if you want to don't forget about some other podcasts that we've got

• 1:49:35Jocko Willink?

  including the thread which will be back soon with a new name which I've already thought of we have the new name

• 1:49:40Speaker 01

  Alright there you go

• 1:49:41Jocko Willink?

  We have to make some final refinements to the new name but I think we're gonna like it we also have the grounded podcast we got the warrior kid podcast we got warrior kid soap from Irishoaksranch.com also on the JacoStore.com made by a warrior kid who owns his own business at age 13 making something that's not just a business product but it's something that every person can use so that they can

• 1:50:07Jocko Willink?

  stay clean

• 1:50:10Jocko Willink?

  don't forget about our YouTube channel because Echo is putting all kinds of time and effort into YouTube videos

• 1:50:19Speaker 01

  Amen it's true brutal

• 1:50:21Jocko Willink?

  Are you gonna put some kind of a

• 1:50:24Jocko Willink?

  a special effect into this video that we're talking about?

• 1:50:27Speaker 01

  No man I don't know you know there's mixed emotions about the special effect

• 1:50:30Jocko Willink?

  There's a lot of people that think that this right there is the best idea you know that anyone's had in a long time is to occasionally throw in a some kind of a cool effect into this video

• 1:50:39Speaker 01

  Yeah yeah

• 1:50:40Jocko Willink?

  So people are watching it and they're like wahhh

• 1:50:42Speaker 01

  Yes I'm sure they'd be very impressed

• 1:50:45Jocko Willink?

  Don't you think the world could use that right now?

• 1:50:48Speaker 01

  Uh, you know.

• 1:50:49Jocko Willink?

  I do.

• 1:50:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:50Jocko Willink?

  Apparently you're undecided. I'm telling you, the world could use some, some special effects in this video that I'm making right now.

• 1:50:56Speaker 01

  It's kind of a nuanced.

• 1:50:58Jocko Willink?

  I should be able to like, put my hand at you and it just sends fire into your eyes.

• 1:51:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, yeah, I kind of get that from you, I guess, sometimes. So, yeah, maybe, maybe not, I don't know. Some people say that, hey, man, no effect or enhancement needed. That's, you know, some of the word I, I've been getting.

• 1:51:15Jocko Willink?

  Okay. So not, maybe not needed, but would be nice. Dude, I'm not talking about like something crazy. I'm talking about occasionally, there's something happens, or I say something, or you say something, and it merits a little highlight.

• 1:51:32Speaker 01

  Alright, so this is, okay, and actually, I, I gotta think of what to do, but, okay, this is what I did. So I'm, I try to like, learn new dumb things, CGI wise. So I have this, um, this program, it's a pretty extensive program, it's like 3D modeling and stuff. But, I just came across, what do you call it, a plugin, or whatever, it's a thing that allows you to do more stuff. That it's facial recognition, so it'll recognize your face, create like a mask, you know, those masks that, you know, you just sort of put on or whatever? A mask, and you can talk, you can whatever, it'll take all that data and create a mask. And then you can put like, your real face on the mask, so it looks like a talking face of your mask. You can incorporate that into your video.

• 1:52:16Jocko Willink?

  I don't even, isn't a talking face of your, um, talking mask of your face, isn't that just your face?

• 1:52:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, but.

• 1:52:25Jocko Willink?

  So why is it even cool?

• 1:52:26Speaker 01

  Because now, I'm just saying, there's a bunch of things you can do with it. But, one of the things, for example, I could get your talking face, and then I could make a video of you talking whatever I want you to say, and then I can incorporate that floating mask, uh, what do you call it, disembodied face of Jaco in the video somewhere.

• 1:52:48Jocko Willink?

  Okay, see? Now we're getting somewhere.

• 1:52:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:52Jocko Willink?

  You know, anytime I do like, I'm trying to describe some event unfolding, and there's a couple people talking, and I say, "So this guy says, 'You don't want to do that,' and then someone else says, 'Yes, I do.'" See, you could all, boom, disembodied my face, we can be having a conversation with myself.

• 1:53:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:07Jocko Willink?

  Maybe put a little bit of, uh, you know, something that makes the face just a little bit different, but it's still me.

• 1:53:12Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:53:14Jocko Willink?

  See, there you go. See, all you need is a little creativity, bro. You can make something happen. Thank you. Don't forget about we have psychological warfare, little psychological hitters to help you over any potential pitfalls of discipline you might encounter. We also have flipsidecanvas.com, run by my brother Dakota Meyer. If you need a little visual, something to keep you nudged onto the path, then go to flipsidecanvas.com. Made in America. Question? Made in America? Yes. Answer. Also got a bunch of books. The Code: Leadership Strategy and Tactics Field Manual, Warrior Kid 1, 2, and 3, Mikey and the Dragons, Discipline = Freedom Field Manual,

• 1:53:59Jocko Willink?

  How to Get After It, Extreme Ownership and the Dichotomy of Leadership.

• 1:54:04Jocko Willink?

  We got Echelon Front, which is my leadership consultancy, and what we do is solve problems through leadership. EF Online, this is it, this is live. We got a new version up right now. We got a new platform, and I know you like that word, Echo Charles. We got a new platform, which is way more dynamic. We got a really awesome forum on there. So you got leadership problems, you can connect with the brigade of people that are on EF Online, exchanging ideas. The instructors, all the instructors are on there. We're all getting after it. We're doing live events several times a week where you can communicate. You want to ask me a question? Just, yeah, Twitter will work. I may get to it. Come to EF Online. Ask me the question. Let me see your, your disembodied head on a Zoom meeting asking me a question.

• 1:54:49Jocko Willink?

  We can talk about it. Go to efonline.com for that. We got the muster. Next one is Phoenix, Arizona, September 16th and 17th, Dallas, Texas, December 3rd and 4th. Go to extremeownership.com for details. And look, we're probably going to have to implement some social distancing in there. So we're going to have less tickets to sell. So that means they're going to sell out faster. So be, if you want to come, come, go to extremeownership.com for that. We have efoverwatch.com, where we have individuals from the special operations community, ready to go to work in the civilian sector.

• 1:55:28Jocko Willink?

  Go to efoverwatch.com if you're on either side of that equation. Americas Mighty Warriors.org. This is Mama Lee, Mark Lee's mom. And she has made her mission in life to help service members, their families, Gold Star families around the world on deployment here in America. If you want to donate or you want to get involved on some level, go to Americas Mighty Warriors.org. And if you haven't had enough of my bland blathering, or you just, just could use a little bit more of Echo's

• 1:56:11Jocko Willink?

  digressive declarations than you can find us on the interwebs, on Twitter, on Instagram, and on Facebook. Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink. And to all the military folks out there, thank you for your service day after day, night after night, week after week, month after month, year after year, protecting our way of life and our liberty. And to all the police out there and law enforcement. And then the firefighters and paramedics and EMTs and dispatchers and correctional officers and Border Patrol and Secret Service. You all do a job that is underpaid, underappreciated,

• 1:56:55Jocko Willink?

  and over demanding. And we thank you all for protecting us here at home. And to everyone else out there, you know, I talked a lot about planning today. We talked a lot about planning today. Collaborative planning and parallel planning and distributed planning. And I talked timelines and courses of action and analysis of the enemy and all those elements. But listen, planning means absolutely nothing without execution. So yes, come up with a plan, think through it, make sure it makes sense, and then go out there and get after it.

• 1:57:37Jocko Willink?

  And until next time, this is Echo and Jaco. Thanks for joining us. Out.