Microsoft’s Panos Panay unfolds the Surface Duo

Chief Product Officer of Microsoft Panos Panay joins editor-in-chief of The Verge Nilay Patel and senior editor Tom Warren hours after Microsoft’s Surface hardware event to talk about the new Surface lineup — including the debut of their foldable devices. Mr. Panay also talks about why Microsoft is using Android for their Duo device, their relationship with Google, and the future of dual-screen form factors. Below is a lightly edited transcript of the conversation. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:05Nilay Patel?

  Hey, everybody. It's Eli from The Vergecast. I got Tom Warren with me.

• 1:07Speaker 03

  Hello there.

• 1:08Nilay Patel?

  Tom Warren, as you know, ace Microsoft reporter, The Verge.

• 1:11Speaker 03

  That's me, apparently.

• 1:12Nilay Patel?

  Big day for Microsoft. Tom, they announced a bunch of stuff.

• 1:14Speaker 03

  They announced Surface Laptop 3, Surface Pro 7, Surface Pro X, some earbuds, and of course, the Neo and the Duo.

• 1:22Nilay Patel?

  Folding.

• 1:23Speaker 03

  Folding.

• 1:24Nilay Patel?

  Surface devices. The Neo runs...

• 1:25Speaker 03

  Dual screen. Neo runs Windows 10 X, which is basically exclusive dual-screen Windows devices. And the Duo runs Android.

• 1:34Nilay Patel?

  It's a big deal.

• 1:34Speaker 03

  Can you believe it?

• 1:35Nilay Patel?

  So, we did what we had to do. Panos Panay, chief product officer at Microsoft, sat down with me and Tom, and we went through it all. I will tell you, we focused mostly on the Duo.

• 1:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:43Nilay Patel?

  You'll hear the beginning of this interview. It's pretty funny. I asked him just to say one sentence about every product, and he was perfect. It was like, perfect. He had one sentence ready.

• 1:51Speaker 03

  He nailed it.

• 1:52Nilay Patel?

  A pure marketing speak of each product. It was, I've never seen anything like it. It was very impressive. But then we talked about the Duo. We talked about why Microsoft is using Android. We talked about the relationship between Microsoft and Google there. We talked about dual-screen form factors coming out and how that might shift things. Panos is one of the most interesting and one of the most honest senior product people that we encounter.

• 2:12Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 2:13Nilay Patel?

  And he made fun of Tom a little bit. It was pretty good.

• 2:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was fun.

• 2:15Nilay Patel?

  All right, check it out. It's Panos Panay on The Vergecast.

• 2:18Nilay Patel?

  Panos Panay, Chief Product Officer of Microsoft. Welcome to the Vergecast.

• 2:21Speaker 04

  Thanks, man. It's great to be here.

• 2:23Nilay Patel?

  Thank you for coming on.

• 2:23Speaker 04

  I love it.

• 2:24Nilay Patel?

  You had a big day today.

• 2:25Speaker 04

  We had a fun day. Team had a big day.

• 2:27Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. So you, I'm gonna, I really want to talk about Surface Duo.

• 2:31Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 2:31Nilay Patel?

  But you announced a whole bunch of other stuff.

• 2:32Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:33Nilay Patel?

  So here's, here's my early plan, because we gotta mention it all. I'm gonna say the names of some products you announced, and you're gonna give me one sentence about them. Surface Pro 7.

• 2:41Speaker 04

  Super powerful. It's a product everybody loves.

• 2:44Nilay Patel?

  Surface Laptop 13.

• 2:45Speaker 04

  It's the most beautiful thing to set your eye on relative to a laptop.

• 2:49Nilay Patel?

  Surface Laptop 15.

• 2:50Speaker 04

  It competes with the 13 for beauty, but it's a super beast in performance.

• 2:54Nilay Patel?

  This is great. You're like, you're like, prepared for this. It's amazing.

• 2:58Speaker 04

  I live it, man.

• 2:59Nilay Patel?

  I was, I was really not expecting you to be this crisp with it.

• 3:01Speaker 04

  No, to be clear, I don't prepare for anything. I have no time.

• 3:06Speaker 04

  I just have to show up and tell you what I'm thinking. I'm not sure what else is supposed to happen.

• 3:10Nilay Patel?

  Surface buds.

• 3:11Speaker 04

  Killer audio. Incredible audio. And then translation is, it's sick. When you're in PowerPoint translating on those things, it is a blast.

• 3:19Nilay Patel?

  It is amazing that you announced Truly Wireless headphones and like, the killer use case that you're, you're like, PowerPoint.

• 3:25Speaker 04

  Heck, yeah, man.

• 3:26Nilay Patel?

  That's the most Microsoft thing I've ever heard in my entire life.

• 3:29Speaker 04

  It was so good, though. I can't explain it to you. Say whatever you want. It wasn't a Microsoft thing. Everybody has headphones. Everybody has earbuds. Come on.

• 3:37Nilay Patel?

  Okay.

• 3:37Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, get into it. Ask me whatever you want about the earbuds. They're awesome. They really are awesome.

• 3:42Nilay Patel?

  No, I, it's the Pro X and the Neo and the Duo that I really want to talk about.

• 3:47Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 3:48Nilay Patel?

  The other stuff is really interesting.

• 3:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:50Nilay Patel?

  That's why I wanted to like, make sure we mention them all.

• 3:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think it's, it's the core of our product line. I mean, that's what, that's what people use today.

• 3:56Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 3:57Speaker 04

  You know, we talk about where people are today and meeting them there. Then we talk about how, this is as a team, how we, how we get people to where they're going. And then we land, you know, making sure we have products for when they get there. And I think you're talking about Neo and Duo, or the where products are gonna be. I think Pro X is the one that moves people tech forward a little bit. And the other products are the things you need right now.

• 4:18Nilay Patel?

  I mean, they seem, and obviously the buds are new, but the other ones seem like these are very careful refinements of things that people already love.

• 4:24Speaker 04

  They are, and there's a lot in there, like the laptop is now repairable, but it's the same beautiful product, you know, no screws, no trap doors, anything like that. That's a big deal for commercial customers or even, you know, you want to replace your keyboard or whatever, we can do it pretty easy. And so I think, you know, when we talk about making these objects, you know, objects of desire, if you will, and or something precious you're going to buy and take care of. But in general, we've been pretty diligent about not letting anybody crack them open or repair them, not even try to do that. It was just how the design came together. And now we've been very diligent in our history and learning and just getting a little bit more mature as an organization, a team, how we build products that are a little more accessible to get into, a lot more inclusive.

• 5:08Speaker 04

  And so you start to see that on the laptop. So they're refinements, yeah, but they're also wholly re-engineered.

• 5:13Nilay Patel?

  So we talk about this every time, so I'm going to ask one question about the Pro 7. I bet you can guess what it is. It's now it has USB-C. You did it.

• 5:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, I don't even know why we want to talk about it.

• 5:21Nilay Patel?

  You got there. But it does have, why see enough Thunderbolt?

• 5:24Speaker 04

  You love talking about this topic.

• 5:25Nilay Patel?

  Well, I'll give you a stat in a minute.

• 5:26Speaker 03

  That's because of the Surface Connect, though, right?

• 5:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, you have Surface Connect. You get everything out, everything you need out of the product through Surface Connect, especially the powerhouse customer, like the power user. And we see that. And so, you know, there's just trade-offs in anything when you're designing something and what you're doing with performance, battery, how you think about thickness. And so just, they're all subtle trade-offs. And at the end of the day, I thought, if I didn't do it, I'd come to this Vergecast and you'd do nothing but complain. And so then, then we did it.

• 5:53Nilay Patel?

  This is a fact.

• 5:54Speaker 04

  And now you're still complaining about it.

• 5:55Nilay Patel?

  This is our role in the market.

• 5:57Speaker 04

  You do an incredible job at it. You guys are really good at this.

• 6:01Nilay Patel?

  All right, let's talk about the Pro X.

• 6:03Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 6:03Nilay Patel?

  It's ARM. You're making your own chip, Surface SQ1 chip.

• 6:07Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 6:07Nilay Patel?

  You're doing it in partnership with Qualcomm.

• 6:09Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 6:09Nilay Patel?

  First question I got when I said, what do people want to know on Twitter is about app support. How should people expect app support to work with Windows on ARM on that device?

• 6:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's a great question. So, you know, the Windows team's done a phenomenal job, specifically because of this product driving forward. We talk a lot about how we're going to create silicon or create a product where we can pull the whole ecosystem through and making sure we're making the right investments across the board as Microsoft. And in this one, the Windows team, holy, it's incredible the work they're doing to basically use emulating technology to run all apps.

• 6:41Nilay Patel?

  You get everything.

• 6:42Speaker 04

  You pretty much get everything. I mean, there's going to be a few things that you don't get. I think if you're a user that wants to go into that sort of the product or the app you can't get, or the software you can't get, you don't want Pro X anyway. That's not your product. And so for the user that's going to use that product, yeah, you get everything. I mean, Chrome, Chrome runs on it. Chrome's one of the biggest things where when you put the product out there, first feedback, if it's not, it doesn't run Chrome, there's immediate reaction. iTunes is another one.

• 7:07Nilay Patel?

  I get Chrome. I cannot say that I understand iTunes. You've said it a couple of times and I'm, it's surprising.

• 7:13Speaker 04

  It's actually true. I mean, I'm just looking at the data and, you know, and those are good, those are both good products in many ways, but great products, really. And so we want to make sure that our customers, you know, one of the product ethos is, hey, where are our customers at? I mean, hence Android. Where are they at and how do we support them? And let's make sure we're doing what we can.

• 7:28Nilay Patel?

  Who do you think the customer for the Pro X is?

• 7:29Speaker 04

  You know, we have a bunch of fancy words to talk about that, but ultimately when we designed it, it was for tech-forward, mobile, professional. That's what it is. And so, you know, if you're leaning into tech and you want something a little bit cutting edge, this is a great product. It's crazy cool. And if you want something, if you're mobile, what I mean, mobile's a funny term. So let me see if I can qualify that for you. If you work on a train, a bus, a plane, if you are in a, you know, you ride, you ride sharing in a car, you like working at the park or at Starbucks, you know, that's a mobile user to me. They use their, they use their products everywhere. It's perfect. It's perfect. It's, it's perfect for that.

• 8:07Nilay Patel?

  So with, obviously with the Qualcomm processor, you built it with Qualcomm.

• 8:11Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 8:11Nilay Patel?

  You get. Always on, you get built-in connectivity, you get a bunch of stuff that the ARM platform can do.

• 8:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:17Nilay Patel?

  Is that what drove you to do ARM here, or was it other stuff?

• 8:20Speaker 04

  No, no.

• 8:21Nilay Patel?

  You just couldn't do it with x86?

• 8:23Speaker 04

  No, it was, yeah, there's a lot of stuff. So it's not one variable. Like, how do you take this one variable and check off that box and say, no, we've got it, you know, instant on, it works? Like, no, it's not that. Although it's a factor, and there's a lot of variables. I think one of the things is, how do you push the form factor forward? So how do we manage, you know, the TDP, or how would I say, just the power perf heat profile of a device? That then dictates how thin you can push it, and how much battery you have to put in it. Battery is basically a function of size, and so the bigger it is, the more battery life you have. The bigger it is, the heavier your device is. The bigger it is, the thicker it is. And so, how can we optimize the entire product line and then give you the best screen possible? Because there's where the trade-off starts to fall in play. The bigger your screen is, the more

• 9:06Speaker 04

  pixels you push, the brighter your screen is, the more damage to your battery life in theory, and the more battery life you need, the thicker your battery has to be, and now you're in this trade-off of weight and thickness. And I think in the two-in-one category, and what we're doing is, pushing that category forward means this: making products thinner, lighter, faster, with more battery life. It's not like a complex equation. It is hard to solve for, but it's not hard to understand that that's what people need or want. And this chip does all that.

• 9:31Speaker 03

  Do you think you'll get to a similar sort of design and that sort of trade-off on the Intel side?

• 9:36Speaker 04

  For sure, for sure. I mean, Intel's doing some incredible work, incredible work. And, you know, but we think about all these products a little bit differently, but yeah. What Intel does, they're incredible partners to us. They've been phenomenal in partnering and designing chipsets together. Yeah, for sure. Easy to understand that. I think it's just, their diversity is a great thing, I think, in the silicon world, for sure, in general. Like, let customers have a choice. I think that's all right. At the end of the day, though, I really want people to buy Surface. So it's, what's the right product? Let's build it. And what's the right chip to build it from? And I think SQ1 is a phenomenal step forward for a lot of reasons, and...

• 10:14Nilay Patel?

  Why build your own?

• 10:14Speaker 04

  Because we want to design from the inside out, from the beginning. And so when we have the steps, like, here's what the product's going to be, here's what we want to deliver, here's what we think... We're going to go after, we had a design, a couple of design points we wanted to hit. And so, sat with the leaders over at Qualcomm, great conversations, and got to the point of saying, "Let's do it."

• 10:30Nilay Patel?

  What was the biggest thing that you asked for, that they didn't have on the shelf?

• 10:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's a combination of so many things, but to get to 5.3 millimeters of thickness with all that performance, it was virtually impossible before we started this program.

• 10:41Nilay Patel?

  Okay, so this leads me to the Duo, which there's, you're sitting-

• 10:44Speaker 04

  That was a big jump.

• 10:45Nilay Patel?

  It's got, no, I've got a segue.

• 10:47Speaker 04

  That was an incredible jump, let me hear it, because I feel like you just literally made up a segue.

• 10:52Nilay Patel?

  No, but A, I really want to talk about the Duo-

• 10:55Speaker 04

  I just wanted to say, I want to get, let's talk about the Duo, here's my lead.

• 10:57Nilay Patel?

  No, well, I mean, it's sitting in front of me, and it's like taunting me.

• 10:58Speaker 04

  That's not my fault.

• 10:59Nilay Patel?

  The Duo has a Snapdragon 855, why doesn't it have SQ1 in it? That's my segue.

• 11:03Speaker 04

  Because you don't need to push that much wattage through the product. So, now, the design point for SQ1, it's not a mobile processor. Yeah, I gotta, let me clarify that for you. A mobile processor is going to push 2 to 3 watts, maybe 2.5, something like that. If you're going to get to the SQ1, we're pushing at 7, 7.5, when you're pushing power through that thing. It's now a PC architecture part. So, the mobile architecture hasn't really moved to the PC. There's been some mobile architecture PCs, but PC architecture-based products, you know, coming from mobile, that doesn't exist. That's what SQ1 does. You could push 2 4K displays at 60 Hz at the same time off of a mobile, not possible. You can't on a SQ1. So, the idea that all the I/Os work, that Surface Connect works, like you say, that

• 11:45Speaker 04

  we can push what people come to have expect from Surface, that's what that part does. When you put the mobile processing in here, that's what you need. Like, you know, it's just, that's what it is.

• 11:56Nilay Patel?

  So, you said, I think, very directly, "It's not a phone." You said to our friend Lauren Good at Wired, "It's not a phone."

• 12:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, okay.

• 12:04Nilay Patel?

  It seems like a phone.

• 12:05Speaker 04

  I think I said it, yeah. Well-

• 12:07Nilay Patel?

  You can fold it the other way, it shows your phone, you show people making calls with it.

• 12:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, of course, look, it's a great phone. It's not, it's not, that's not, that's not what I mean by "it's not a phone."

• 12:14Nilay Patel?

  Okay.

• 12:15Speaker 04

  I feel like phone is such a limiting word, you know, and then you say, well, smartphone, I don't even know what that means. And then fablet, I'm not sure what that is, but everything has an identifying factor to it. Even when we started Surface, people are like, so it's a tablet. I'm like, it's not a tablet. It's just not a tablet. It's a Surface. I don't know what to say. And you want to categorize it and put it there. I think if you're going to create a new category, you're going to try and change things, push, push things forward. The minute you put, you put it in a box, I think you're lost. So I've been pretty resistant to that, just to not end up there. Not because it doesn't act like a great phone.

• 12:45Nilay Patel?

  I mean, once this product hits the market, it's not coming out for a year. It's holiday 2020. You've got a year to figure out how people are going to use it. But right now...

• 12:53Speaker 04

  But for, for everyone listening, Pro X is coming out right now. So that's, there's a delta there, just to make sure.

• 12:57Nilay Patel?

  Right. And then the Neo, which is the larger.

• 12:59Speaker 04

  They're both holiday 2020.

• 13:01Nilay Patel?

  So dual screen is holiday 2020.

• 13:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think this category kind of lights up 2020. Yeah, it's a good way to say it.

• 13:07Nilay Patel?

  Well, it's funny, the last time I talked to you, I remember we had a very spirited discussion about the Galaxy Fold, and you thought that was a fairly silly design decision, use a plastic screen.

• 13:14Speaker 04

  I don't remember saying that, really.

• 13:15Nilay Patel?

  It turns out...

• 13:16Speaker 04

  I don't think I said that. I may have, but I can't remember.

• 13:19Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, plausible deniability is fine. It turned out to have been a fairly silly design decision at that time. They're doing it again, but that's like a first generation foldable in a different way. You're doing two screens with a hinge, and you think a year from now, it's actually going to start taking off.

• 13:33Speaker 04

  I absolutely think so. I think we've seen what, you know, dual screen use brings. And, you know, we, we've, we test thousands and thousands of scenario with thousands of people. We measure so many different things. We do, you know, we measure, we measure the brain activity. We measure how people feel. We, you know, we, we ask thousands of questions. And an incredible user research team, human factors team, both from an inclusive design standpoint, just thinking about how everyone would use this device, no matter who you are, and all the way through. And yeah, I'm 100% sure at this point, like I'm, it's a, I think it's a kind of bold statement, but I really do believe in, in where this category can go. I hope, I'm pretty sure people will see it pretty quick.

• 14:12Nilay Patel?

  So just like history of technology wise, right? Microsoft was like dominant operating system vendor, dominant platform vendor. There was a form factor shift to mobile. You think holiday 2020 is a form factor shift to dual screen that lets Microsoft?

• 14:24Speaker 04

  I don't think it happens that fast, no. I don't think it happens that fast. I think, yeah, I think it starts. I think you start to understand how much more productive and creative you can be on both Windows and Android. I think that consistency of whichever operating system you're on, it still, you can be productive with two screens.

• 14:40Nilay Patel?

  But do you think people are going to buy this as a replacement for their phone?

• 14:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:43Nilay Patel?

  As a substitute?

• 14:44Speaker 04

  Yeah. I think some people, like other people will just want it because maybe it's cool. Yeah. And then you, you know, there's something about it that that is, that's attractive for sure. And I do, I think people will replace their phone. I think people will buy it as a second device and I think it works pretty well both ways.

• 15:00Nilay Patel?

  So talk to me about Android. What's it like working with Google? What's that relationship like? Is this a Play Store device?

• 15:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, Play Store, you know, Google search, also Bing search. It's pretty cool. There's some great concepts between the two companies.

• 15:13Nilay Patel?

  But why Android?

• 15:14Speaker 04

  Well, because those are the apps you want.

• 15:17Nilay Patel?

  It's just that simple?

• 15:17Speaker 04

  I don't know how to answer it differently for you. Yeah, like because there's hundreds of thousands of apps and you want them. And Satya and I talk about it and it's about meeting our customers where they are, where they're going to be. And I don't think the, you know, the mobile application platform is going anywhere anytime soon. And it's pretty simple. I'm not trying to be smart about it either, like literally, Tom, it's, you need the apps. Now, how do we get developers to, you know, look at the APIs that are going to be across the platforms and how you can think about a 360 degree hinge and what a posture does? How we can light up maybe X cloud on the product, you know, device on one side, controller on the other, I mean, the game on one side, controller on the other. And the way two screens interrupt with each other when you open two apps, like just something as simple as you can kind of see the power of it pretty quick.

• 16:02Speaker 04

  I don't know if I'm connected.

• 16:04Nilay Patel?

  He's taunting us by showing us the device right now.

• 16:06Speaker 04

  So you can just see it, right? You see you're in mail and what if you needed to copy something over and drag it over to your last app? Like, these sort of things that are complex tasks where you have to context switch all the time in this product, they come to life quick. There's a lot going on in the sense that if I were just to open, I'll open calendar for you. So there's calendar and I'll just span it between the two screens. See it come to life there. And then you'll see, like, you watch the calendar snap on the seam, which I love it. I mean, I celebrate this seam. It's huge because it really does put apps in layers for you or structures it. These structured thoughts happen and you watch the brain light up and things are easier. It was pretty cool, the things that can happen. And you're now in kind of this place where when you're in a product like this, it becomes a little bit limitless in what you can create or do if you're a developer.

• 16:51Speaker 04

  And that's what we're hoping for. So the reason we came out with the products today, which was not a, I won't say it, so it was not a fun decision. We haven't done that. I don't know how to. So we're learning, you know, humbly, I'll tell you, we're learning. I don't know if we did the right thing or wrong thing, but we do want to inspire developers.

• 17:08Nilay Patel?

  How much do you think the product will change between now and holiday time?

• 17:11Speaker 04

  The hardware won't change at all. So we've been designing this hardware for, how long, Pete? Three years? My partner in crime, Pete K. is here. He's amazing. We've been about three and a half, I don't know, I don't want to be on the record, but something like that. It's been a long time. I think you know that. You've unpacked it on me a couple of times with your unbelievable spy skills or whatever you got.

• 17:33Nilay Patel?

  It's reporting. It's called reporting.

• 17:36Speaker 04

  Oh, reporting. Jeez, I've missed that. Do people cuss on the Vergecast?

• 17:41Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, go nuts, man.

• 17:42Speaker 04

  Okay, thanks.

• 17:43Nilay Patel?

  No FCC here, Doug.

• 17:44Speaker 04

  You almost got me there. You almost got me.

• 17:46Nilay Patel?

  So historically, there's been a lot of companies that have tried to take Android, Google Play Android, build software experiences on top of them. I would say historically, those companies have not been as good at software as Microsoft, as good at design as Microsoft. And Google's pulled them back. Is Google letting you build your own Android experience?

• 18:05Speaker 04

  I don't think this is a letting conversation at all. I think this is a partnering conversation. I think the conversations we've been having and the work we've done together, pretty cool. Like, you can see it if I go, you know, call this the N minus one screen. Once you slide over here, look, check it out. You got Google search here. You got the entire Microsoft feed here.

• 18:21Nilay Patel?

  On the left screen is Microsoft feed, on the right screen is...

• 18:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, on the right screen is... Well, you still have the Microsoft apps underneath, but you're... The idea is, here's the way we talked about it. When we, when we sat with Google, Hiroshi and I sat down, we had this conversation, and it was, "Look, here's, here's the vision. We want to make the best of Microsoft on the Android that people know." So the idea wasn't, I mean, if you look here, you'll see the app launcher come up, just like you would have on an Android phone. And then if you pull down from the top, you'll see the settings. Like, we're not trying to be...

• 18:48Nilay Patel?

  But that settings looks a little bit different than a standard. You've done some design work.

• 18:51Speaker 04

  There's some, of course, there's design work, but it's what you know. Like, I'm not, it's a surface.

• 18:56Speaker 03

  Is it like an extension of the Microsoft Launcher?

• 18:58Speaker 04

  So the Launcher team is a huge part of this program. They're amazing. And, uh, yeah, yeah, you think of it that way a little bit. I mean, it's not, we're not putting a launcher on top. That's not it. But the Launcher team is doing a ton of work, bringing together this connected experience through the cloud. It's very cool. Very cool. I won't share too much, because I can't give too much of it away, but yeah.

• 19:17Speaker 03

  So what are the gives and takes between Microsoft and Google on this effort? Like, are we going to see Google Search integrating?

• 19:23Speaker 04

  We're probably not going to talk about that today, Tom. But I think there is a good, not to be rude, but I think it's just, there's a lot there. You know, the company, not, not in gives and takes, that's not what I mean, but in the sense of, you know, our relationship is, it's building, it's pretty, it's deep rooted, and we're partnering. It's the best way to think about it. I don't think it's about give and take. I think it's about, what's the right product to build for people? That's how I feel. I think that's how my counterparts over in Google feel, and that's what we're going to go do.

• 19:47Nilay Patel?

  So in terms of, I think Satya said it...

• 19:50Speaker 04

  I think people will love it, though. For that reason, for that reason, because that's the ethos.

• 19:53Nilay Patel?

  That, you know, Windows as the operating system is not the whole point anymore. It's obviously apps and services. Microsoft has moved its entire business there. How are you thinking about Android? You make a whole line of Windows devices. How are you thinking about them as complements? How are they going to tie together?

• 20:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, you want, first off, you...

• 20:07Nilay Patel?

  Is Android the future for you all?

• 20:08Speaker 04

  No, no, no, no, no. You want to give customers what they want in the form factor that they're using. Like, if we, it would be silly to be like, "Let's, let's shove..." We've learned this. We've learned this. You know, let's put the wrong operating system, the right operating system on the wrong product, or the other way around, pick your words. But what's the right operating system for the form factor? And in this case, in mobile devices, Android's the obvious choice. But anything above that, Windows is everything, superior for me in my product design, in the product design, I should say that. I'm not trying to sound arrogant, I promise you. It comes from a humble place, but my belief in Windows is so strong in what you can accomplish with it. Now, to Satya's point, you know how the OS disappears in the background? I think Microsoft does an incredible job of that,

• 20:53Speaker 04

  like, you know, enabling people to be more productive and achieve and all the great words. But we do a pretty good job.

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• 22:36Nilay Patel?

  So you've got Windows 10x, which is for the Neo, which is the dual-screen version of Windows. Is that going to come to different form factors? Is it exclusively for dual-screen?

• 22:44Speaker 04

  No, like, right now, we're talking about, yeah, think of it this way, right now, it's for dual-screen. I think it's hard to use the word exclusive for anything right now. It's so early. We're learning, and I think that's part of the growth mindset of the company. We have that filter, and I definitely have it. I know Pete does. We're going to listen. We've got some time. We've got some time. We're going to listen to developers pretty close. We've been looking at the products for three years, both of them. It's been a while. So I don't actually know the timeframes. I've got to get these timeframes. Somebody's got to help me. Pete, we've got to figure out the timeframe, because I can't just randomly answer this one. But I think it's about three years.

• 23:15Nilay Patel?

  Okay.

• 23:16Speaker 04

  It's a blur. But, yeah, you'll learn through this process, and that's a big part of product-making. And I'm not saying learn by making mistakes. We're going to take our time and get it right. I would say, the form factor you're looking at, this is interesting. You should just hold it, just to feel it.

• 23:30Nilay Patel?

  Yes, please.

• 23:31Speaker 04

  Just feel the hinge. I think the form factor is a third-generation form factor. This is not like, hey, it's first-gen, it might work. That's not the case. We literally, on the third-gen of that hinge, the third-gen of that screen, our partners are incredible, how we integrate the Gorilla Glass, that's all been failed through. Now, how we get that interaction model perfect and get connected with developers, that's why we came out today. That was important.

• 23:53Nilay Patel?

  How soon can developers get their hands on these things?

• 23:56Speaker 04

  You know, it depends. We're working on the stability of the product and the builds and so forth, and the way hardware works. We've got probably a couple more months. They're going to have their hands on it and be running full speed. Yeah, it's just a matter of shoring up the APIs and making sure we're ready to go.

• 24:09Nilay Patel?

  What's pricing on that thing going to be like?

• 24:10Speaker 04

  I'm not going to tell you.

• 24:12Nilay Patel?

  Am I going to be happy or unhappy?

• 24:13Speaker 04

  Happy, super happy.

• 24:14Nilay Patel?

  Describe my feelings.

• 24:15Speaker 04

  Like, you will be elated.

• 24:18Nilay Patel?

  I like elated.

• 24:18Speaker 04

  Yeah. I think you'll be pretty pumped about it. I am. And so I think, you know, when you say you're on the third generation of hardware, you're kind of pushing the boundary already on the silicon. You're pushing your boundary on how the thing lays out, how the antennas are coming together. When I say happy, I think the value of the product you get for how much you're paying it's there and that's what matters to customers.

• 24:37Nilay Patel?

  So, last question, it's just a, just a big thing about sort of form factors, sizes, operating systems. You have one big competitor in Apple that is like pretty good at phones, pretty good at tablets, pretty good at laptops.

• 24:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'd say great at all those things.

• 24:50Nilay Patel?

  Google's pretty good at phones, pretty okay at laptops, horrible at tablets.

• 24:54Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 24:55Nilay Patel?

  You guys are really good at laptops, really good at Surface devices, which often look like tablets to me.

• 25:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, no, it's fine, you can say that.

• 25:01Nilay Patel?

  Historically not great at phones.

• 25:02Speaker 04

  I think when you build a product, you just don't think that way, but you identify it, identify it the way you want, yeah?

• 25:08Nilay Patel?

  There's a gap that you're bridging here between the phone and the tablet.

• 25:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, for sure, but I don't think Surface is ever, you know...

• 25:13Nilay Patel?

  Does this just fill a hole for both of you, is what I'm saying. Do they get better tablet-y experiences and do you get an entry point into mobile?

• 25:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, no, I don't think so. I don't think it's that complex, actually. I mean, it's a good theoretical point, but I'm not sure it, I've thought about it that way.

• 25:28Nilay Patel?

  Because I, and I could just see, you know, you put this one out, next year it does well, after all, for start actually thinking about larger screens and Android devices, and then you build a larger one, right, a slightly larger one that like runs right up against the Neo.

• 25:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, I don't see that. Like, I can see my roadmap.

• 25:43Nilay Patel?

  I know, I hope so.

• 25:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, I can see it three years out and I'm not like some, like I have, I've had visions, visions. That's not, that's not what I mean by see it, like, quite literally, like I physically see it in the roadmap. Like, this is not a, we have every iteration of these products out there. I don't, I think what you're saying is not where I'm seeing things.

• 26:03Nilay Patel?

  Okay.

• 26:04Speaker 04

  At the end of the day, Windows is doing its job well. It's incredible, literally for anything bigger than this device. Now, anything bigger in between Neo and Duo, I think is stuck. So, when I say anything bigger, I don't see anything smaller than 2.9 inches and I don't see anything bigger than this. When we, when we picked these, when we picked this product, we, we literally looked, I can't tell you, I mean, for years, at screen sizes, what's the right thing to do. But don't we want it to just be like a phone? Maybe it should be like, you know, you identify different products. It's gotta be like this what people like. And eventually we got to, you know, what are people gonna do and what's the right size and what's the biggest we can make it, but still make it as small as it can be. And I know that sounds like a kind of an oxymoron, but that was the, that

• 26:46Speaker 04

  was the push. We found the design point of where I think the largest product can be in the mobile space. That's what I believe. And so, I say that where I could be wrong. But I also say it in that I look at my roadmap and we're not looking at anything bigger than this. I never share my roadmap, you know that.

• 27:03Nilay Patel?

  They keep trying, yeah.

• 27:04Speaker 04

  We've tried and you're reporting spying, whatever it is. Identify some shit sometimes and it just drives me nuts, but I was really frustrated with the leak two days ago. You guys have no idea.

• 27:18Nilay Patel?

  Tell me more.

• 27:19Speaker 04

  That leak came through and I was like, what happened? What happened? Basically, the laptop leaked, Surface Pro leaked, Surface Pro X leaked, like those three products leaked. I was proud of the team, I'm proud of the way everyone handled it, I'm proud of the way we reacted.

• 27:33Nilay Patel?

  You said it on stage, like I've seen all the leaks too, but I got one more, you know.

• 27:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, you know, I was talking to Youssef, basically our CMO of Surface, and he was like, don't do it. Don't do it, okay. But we had a good time thinking about that.

• 27:48Nilay Patel?

  So, actual last question, I'm getting a wrap-up signal over here. What's the thing you want people to think about? We've got a year of people thinking about this product.

• 27:55Speaker 04

  I don't even know what an actual last question is at that point. Like, we already had a last question, now you have an actual.

• 28:00Nilay Patel?

  Journalism.

• 28:00Speaker 04

  It's pretty good.

• 28:01Nilay Patel?

  It's how you do it.

• 28:02Speaker 04

  Alright.

• 28:02Nilay Patel?

  What's a year, what's the thing you want people to focus on in this year? Because you're gonna, there're gonna be competitors coming out.

• 28:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 28:08Nilay Patel?

  You're gonna hit the second generation of some of your competitors when you come out. How do you want people to think about this device for the next year?

• 28:13Speaker 04

  You're talking about Duo?

• 28:14Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 28:14Speaker 04

  Okay. Because I really want people to think about the holiday lineup as the Surface, you know, PCs basically that we just shipped. We're pretty proud of those, but, and we want people to buy them, that's true. Then Duo, you know, I think like anything, look at the product that you think is most interesting to you and where you think you can be more creative, that's what I would push. I think this product's gonna be there next year. If you're not in a hurry, you know, hang out and see what happens and what's happening. But I, I look at it and go, just hang out, it's gonna be alright. Take photos or do whatever it is you do on your phone today for a little bit longer and then we'll see if we can convince you that you can be more creative on this product.

• 28:47Nilay Patel?

  This is great in the context of like the last round of phone reviews where everyone was like. Maybe keep your phone for like 20 years. It's good enough, right?

• 28:55Speaker 04

  Funny, I haven't read phone reviews. I don't really look at other phones. I know that I take photos with my phone. Like, I take a lot of pictures. But I want to extend that. Like, you know, I told the story today, it was a real story, where you know how many times I start mail on my phone? And I moved to my Surface. Like, it's almost, an important mail. Like, I'm not confused, like, simple mails or short mails or something I need to get out or reply all, like, I gotta get a note out, sure. But I use my phone as much as anybody. But when it gets to something I gotta be thinking through and editing and so forth, I think, I think the world's maybe ready. Especially, like, we're in this era of mobile creativity. So many people creating on the fly. That's pretty inspiring, you know?

• 29:36Speaker 04

  Millennials, if you will, Gen Z, my kids, watching my kids blows my mind. But even them, they have to move to their Surface. One of them has a PC, you know? But they do, they move and they have to work there. And I just think, why don't we, why don't we get to that next spot? I think this product does that.

• 29:54Nilay Patel?

  I'm very interested to see a form factor change come, because I think everything changes in that moment.

• 29:59Speaker 04

  I think we've been waiting for it a little bit, you know? And I think we've been saying for a long time, when the form factor is ready to change, we'll be there. And I think this is the time.

• 30:06Nilay Patel?

  Well, Panos, thank you so much for joining us.

• 30:08Speaker 04

  It's always a good time with you guys.

• 30:09Nilay Patel?

  Sorry that we did some journalism at you.

• 30:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 30:10Nilay Patel?

  Apologies.

• 30:11Speaker 04

  You call it journalism. I wasn't judging, I wasn't judging The Verge. I love you guys, you guys are amazing. You're right up the middle in journalism, you do it right. I'm really proud of that, I love that.

• 30:19Nilay Patel?

  I appreciate that.

• 30:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's very cool. You got a great group here. All right, thanks a lot.

• 30:24Nilay Patel?

  All right, that was Panos Panay, Chief Product Officer at Microsoft. It's gonna be a wild year ahead as we learn more about the Surface Neo and Duo, the folding devices for Microsoft. This is a special episode, thanks for hanging with us. We got the regular chat show tomorrow, and there's plenty more to talk about, so check that out.

• 30:41Speaker 07

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