66. LIZ TRUSS RESIGNS

In this emergency podcast Rory Stewart and Alastair Campbell react to the news that Liz Truss has resigned as Prime Minister after barely six weeks in office. Who will replace her as leader of the Conservatives and what chance do they have of uniting their party behind them? London Palladium live show tickets on sale Friday 9am: Tuesday 21st March 2023: www.aegpresents.co.uk/events/detail/the-rest-is-politics-live Become a member of The Rest Is Politics Plus to support the podcast, enjoy ad-free listening, and receive early access to live show tickets and Question Time episodes. Just head to therestispolitics.com to sign up. Instagram: @restispolitics Twitter: @RestIsPolitics Email: [email protected] Producer: Dom Johnson + Nicole Maslen Exec Producer: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Rory Stewart?

  This episode is brought to you by NordVPN.

• 0:06Alastair Campbell?

  And I must thank NordVPN because on my Grand European Tour with Fiona, I was away from the Hawthorns for West Bromwich against Burnley, but I managed to watch it. There you go.

• 0:19Rory Stewart?

  I actually had a NordVPN thank you. I was in the new Starbucks here in Crete. And of course, the thing flashed up, saying this is an unsecured public network. And I was able to go to my VPN. It was a little reminder of something we often forget when we're in all those cafes and things, which is actually genuinely, people can do all kinds of weird cyber attacks and spying if you don't have a virtual private network when you're sitting in that Starbucks.

• 0:42Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I think, are you not really sort of proud of me that I managed to do this? Or should I say Fiona managed to do this?

• 0:49Rory Stewart?

  I'm incredibly proud of you. That's a tech transformation. So to get the best discount off your NordVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com/restispolitics. That's nordvpn.com/restispolitics. And the link is in the episode description.

• 1:43Rory Stewart?

  Welcome to a special edition of The Rest is Politics with me, Rory Stewart.

• 1:48Alastair Campbell?

  And me, Alastair Campbell.

• 1:50Rory Stewart?

  So I think first thing, before we get on to the extraordinary news about Liz Truss, who's just resigned as Prime Minister, very quickly, thank you for everybody who's signed up for the Palladium, for our second night of the Palladium. But unfortunately, all the 750 initial seats sold out in 17 minutes. And the next lot are going out on Friday morning. So please do try to sign up. And we apologize if those sell out too. And we'll find some other way of doing something.

• 2:16Alastair Campbell?

  And just go to the Rest is Politics Twitter feed, and you'll find the link there to go to. The pladium and thank you for all your support. And of course, I expect Liz Truss might be along. She's going to be looking for things to do, kicking her heels by then.

• 2:28Rory Stewart?

  I did feel genuinely very sorry for her standing at that podium. I mean, I think that's really must have been extraordinary for her. I was looking at her and wondering whether, like Theresa May, she was possibly going to break down in tears because the horror, and you could see in her eyes. I know you think that she feels no remorse or horror at all. I mean, I know her well, and I think even Liz, who is a very, very resilient, tough cookie, that is the most humiliating thing imaginable, to be the shortest-serving Prime Minister in British history.

• 3:00Alastair Campbell?

  Replacing Mr. George Canning, who died.

• 3:04Rory Stewart?

  Yeah.

• 3:05Alastair Campbell?

  But listen, Rory, I thought she was at one point close to doing that, that sort of half laugh that she did with Chris Mason the other night. I think she has a very nervous near laugh whenever she's really under stress. Look, I don't doubt it's utterly humiliating for her. Well, as I was watching, Fiona said, you know, God, what must her kids be going through? Of course, you feel like that. But I think we were saying on the Q and A that to become Prime Minister, you do have to be sure that you're up to the job. It's why when I, when I hear these names floating around now, you know, Badenoch and Brandon Lewis, they're all throwing their names around that they could do it. They're not capable of being Prime Minister. I've seen what you'd need to be a good Prime Minister, and it's

• 3:46Alastair Campbell?

  not, none of them have it. Now, the only one, the only one who, who you think, well, maybe, maybe you think is Sunak. There's none of the others, not one of them, that you could even think was credible.

• 3:59Rory Stewart?

  How about Michael Gove?

• 4:00Alastair Campbell?

  No chance, absolutely no chance, no chance at all. I mean, one, I mean, Michael Gove's very, very clever. He's a very, very eloquent sort of guy. But he's basically a journalist. He's not, he's not a leader. He's not really, I've never seen Michael really as a politician. He's a schemer. He's great at the games that they play, but that's it. He's not going to lead a country.

• 4:21Rory Stewart?

  I don't know. I mean, I, I think, oh, I think it's an unbelievably impossible job at the moment. Because it's getting, it's getting more and more impossible because you're trying to, you know, the famous joke, I think it's a Lyndon Johnson joke. He says that if you can't ride two horses at once, get out of the circus. But the two horses now, which are the Conservative Party and the British economy, are both bucking broncos or bucking bulls. I don't know what they are. But the idea that you can find now a Conservative Party leader who can both hold together this party and do something to restore the economy. And I think what someone like Michael Gove does have, unlike a lot of the other candidates, is immense experience. I mean, he was at the central government for, I guess, 11 years.

• 5:07Rory Stewart?

  He's very, very bright. He's very focused on detail. The problem, I guess, is, is whether he's going to be able to find the charisma, the communication skills to, to pull it off. And your, your instinct is not.

• 5:18Alastair Campbell?

  Your, your, your answer there is, is in the question. I just think it's a, I honestly think, when I was watching Sky News this afternoon, they were throwing all the different names around that are being mooted and so forth. And I just thought, what planet are these people on? And so I, I said, I think I said on the podcast this week that I think the only thing they can do, and I think it may be impossible because they're just so divided and so riven. And I think they've reached that point that the Labour Party at one point had when, with the whole Benite days. They've reached that point where people inside the Conservative Party hate each other way more than they hate their political opponents. And that's a very dangerous place to be.

• 5:54Rory Stewart?

  Let's come back to that because I think the Benite analogy is a really, really good one. Because what it's about is that what Brexit has released is a kind of deep ideological fanaticism. And a bit like, I guess, the Benite Labour Party, there are a whole series of people. Some of them believe in creating Singapore. Some of them believe in creating Victorian Britain, as far as I can see. Some of them want to see Brexit as an opportunity to rip up the welfare state. Some of them see it as an opportunity to defend the countryside. Some of them see an opportunity to build on the green belt. Some of it, Liz Truss saw it as an opportunity to bring in more immigration. Suella Bravman saw it as an opportunity to stop immigration. So.

• 6:35Rory Stewart?

  All of them have developed these sort of quasi-religious ideas about what Brexit really meant. And I think that is a bit reminiscent of the left of the Labour Party at its at its most ideological. It's it's becoming a sort of revolutionary party with ten little revolutionary ideas and factions.

• 6:54Alastair Campbell?

  But I think I think the Bennites in the Labour Party were pretty clear about what they believed. I disagreed with most of it. Whereas I think, as you say, with these guys, we're back to the point. I mean, I do think Brexit is at the heart of this utter catastrophe for the country. And, you know, these same people who told us that we were all clear about what we were getting when we voted for Brexit, as you say, they're still struggling to come to terms with what it actually means. And I do think I think for for most people, for most reasonable people, I think watching that farce today and seeing Sir Graham Brady, the chairman of the nineteen twenty-two committee, strut around and saying, we'll have a new prime minister within a week. I just think it is it's a democratic obscenity that we

• 7:37Alastair Campbell?

  should now be on to soon be on to our fifth prime minister from a single party, which has frankly, to my mind, improved next to nothing in this country over the last twelve years.

• 7:48Rory Stewart?

  Okay, now, for for for the benefit of our of our many listeners in Japan, who incidentally haven't been getting back to me as much on my questions on Japanese politics.

• 7:56Alastair Campbell?

  That's because they knew that you were just sitting there Googling everything about Japan, and they were very angry about it. They wanted you to have genuine knowledge. By the way, I must make an apology.

• 8:06Rory Stewart?

  Wait, wait, wait. No, I've got I've got something to get at you. I hope this isn't what you're going to apologize. I just heard from the northeast Chamber of Commerce saying, you should take great delight in correcting Alastair on his flawed knowledge of football. Newcastle didn't play against Liverpool in an FA Cup final under Kenny De Gea. Schoolboy error by Alastair. All best wishes, John McCabe, Middle East England Chamber of Commerce.

• 8:29Alastair Campbell?

  Well, you can, that was exactly what I was going to apologize for. And the reason is that I actually remember, because Burnley were in the semi-final the year against Newcastle, the year that Newcastle played Liverpool, and that's what I got mixed up. And the reason we have some wonderful. For listeners, because I'll tell you who corrected me immediately on Twitter was Kenny Delglish's daughter.

• 8:51Rory Stewart?

  There we are.

• 8:52Alastair Campbell?

  So there we are. So no, I put my hands up to that, but I didn't have to Google it either.

• 8:56Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, didn't have to Google it. Well, I'm going to hold my hands up so that you can be reassured that I'm not Googling anything when I'm talking to you. And I'm just going to just going to get listeners up to date a little bit on where we are. So first obvious dramatic point for people who anybody who's not been following this overly closely is that there was an election in 2019. Boris Johnson won the election with an extraordinary unprecedented majority. And as Amos has pointed out, that was at the end of nine years of Conservative government. So that David Cameron come in in 2010, he'd won again in 2015, Theresa May had won in 2017.

• 9:31Alastair Campbell?

  Sorry, just a minute. How was it extraordinary unprecedented when we had one that was twice as big?

• 9:36Rory Stewart?

  Oh, because it was that late in the term. You weren't bringing in that kind of majority after.

• 9:41Alastair Campbell?

  Oh, I see. Okay, okay, okay. Is that the biggest third term majority ever? Is that what you're telling me?

• 9:46Rory Stewart?

  It must be pretty close to it. I'm not, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna go. I mean, I've got my hands up, so I can't Google the answer for you. But, but it was certainly pretty, pretty impressive. Whatever one thinks of Boris Johnson, it was very unusual because Theresa May was in real trouble. The Conservative Party seemed in real trouble. He made this very odd decision, it seemed to people like me who were in the centre of the party, to expel the centre left of the Conservative Party, take on the Supreme Court, go for a hard Brexit. And he picked up all these votes in old Labour seats, traditional Labour seats in North East, and won this enormous majority. Now, point is, when you win an enormous majority, and the Conservative Party hadn't had a majority like that under David Cameron or Theresa May, when I started in politics in 2010, I was on a three line whip all the time because we had

• 10:29Rory Stewart?

  these paper thin majorities, and the whips had to keep us voting all the time so we didn't lose legislation. And Theresa May really felt very, very vulnerable because she'd lost her majority. So she was dependent on these deals with DUP to keep in place. So Boris wins this majority, Boris Johnson wins this majority in 2019. And you would have thought he was set up. Firmly and easily for five years. And basically, in the whole of British politics for the last hundred years, if you'd won a majority of that scale, you would have been set up for the next five years because there's no reason to hold an election. Boris Johnson succeeded in making such a disgrace of himself that he ended up with 60 of his ministers resigning before he finally agreed to resign in a series of extraordinary

• 11:14Rory Stewart?

  lies, humiliations, sex scandals, misleading parliament. Leadership race was run, endless runners and riders, just like the Grand National. And at the end of this process, two of them go in front of the country, Rishi Sunak and Liz Truss, and Liz Truss wins. Liz Truss wins, she takes over, and as soon as she takes over, the Queen dies, so that the first few weeks of her premiership are entirely absorbed with the funeral ceremony for the Queen and the new King taking over. And then she decides, once that's over, to launch with Kwasi Kourou, her Chancellor, her mini-budget. The mini-budget's launched, the markets collapse. She tries to throw Kwasi Kourou out of the boat to try to feed the sharks last week, but of course it doesn't work.

• 11:59Rory Stewart?

  By the beginning of this week, she's losing her Home Secretary, as well as having lost her Chancellor. And finally, she goes, shortest British Prime Minister ever. We have the records going all the way back, right? Right in the 18th century, nobody's managed this. Right, there we are. So there we are with my little summary, and I'm going to stop talking for a second.

• 12:16Alastair Campbell?

  I just think on the point about the leadership election, we're just revisiting this, and this is why I think Sunak is in a credible Conservative Party or a serious Conservative Party. I mean, he is able to say, I did tell you this would happen, almost, almost word for word. Now, I don't think Sunak is that great a political thinker. I don't like a lot of his politics, but I think if I look at him against all of the others who are throwing their hat into the ring, then I think he is the only one that strikes me as maybe. You were talking about if they go with Truss, it's 100% defeat. If they get somebody else quickly, maybe they can save, you know, up to sort of 80%. I think it was what you said.

• 12:59Alastair Campbell?

  And then, of course, they're now, I mean, Graham Brady is meeting, I think now, as we're doing this podcast, with the 1922 Committee, where I suspect that what they're trying to do... Is to organise the rules so that Boris Johnson, who has been briefing very, very, you know, all his client journalists in the media, that he's thinking about going for it again, which I think would be, I think, I think it would be absolutely wonderful for Labour, for Johnson. I think it would be the best thing. Do you remember I said, do you remember I said, if Liz Truss wins the leadership, Keir Starmer can go on holiday? Right. Well, I think I've been proven right about that. I can, I honestly think, they think Johnson's a winner. The guy, the guy is, he's so easily to destroy now. So let's

• 13:42Alastair Campbell?

  see if that happens. But I think what they're going to do is have a very, very high threshold for being able to stand, to stop all these ridiculous bad knocks and Brandon Lewis's and all the rest of them. And so that in the end, they wanted to come down to Sunak and Mordaunt. Jeremy Hunt ruled himself out. I was hearing yesterday that Sunak and Mordaunt and Hunt have actually been talking to each other the whole time since, while this has all been going on. And that they probably want Sunak.

• 14:06Rory Stewart?

  Well, so just, just again, for, for, for my, the listeners in Tuvalu, I just met a listener from Tuvalu, when I was in Malawi last week. And he wants, wants us to do more on Tuvalu. Says we haven't been covering Tuvalu enough.

• 14:18Alastair Campbell?

  I think it's fair to say we've not covered Tuvalu at all.

• 14:21Rory Stewart?

  For, for the listener in Tuvalu, what has now been announced so far is that the Chair in 1922 Committee, and the 1922 Committee is this group of Conservative MPs who represent the back benches, and they generally control the rules for leadership elections. And the, this comes from the days when really, and this was true until very recently, that leaders of the Conservative Party, Prime Ministers were chosen from, by the Members of Parliament. And the argument was that this was more democratic because the Members of Parliament were elected.

• 14:52Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 14:53Rory Stewart?

  Now, of course, we've got to a system where if you pay £25 for Conservative Party membership, you get a bonus thing, a bit like the bonus that we give people having 17 minutes to sign up for the pladium. You get the bonus of being able to choose the Prime Minister. What the 1922 Committee is struggling with is they want to get it done very, very quickly. They feel that the only hope they have is to get this done in a few days and that what they can't have is a repeat of what happened with Boris Johnson when he ran against Jeremy Hunt or what Liz Truss did when she ran against Rishi Sunak, which is months of the party tearing itself to pieces and producing its leader. But the awful thing is that he's also announced that he wants the members involved again in some way, which will mean some weird form of sudden electronic voting.

• 15:37Alastair Campbell?

  Which, by the way, they want to ban for trade union elections.

• 15:41Rory Stewart?

  Well, also, people are saying, I don't know if it's true, but people on social media pointing out that this is actually something that you can get real interference on. Now, I don't know what this electronic system is because obviously the Conservative Party is not very transparent about what's going on at the moment. But you're quite right. Look, on Twitter, James Dudridge MP, 4pm, went out and said, "I hope you enjoyed your holiday, boss. Time to come back. Fewer sues at the office that need addressing. Bring back Boris."

• 16:10Alastair Campbell?

  Well, that underlines that he was his PPS, wasn't he? I mean, I'm afraid for these people. It's all a game. It's all a game. It's a game for Johnson. It's a game for people like Dudridge. We're talking here about a situation that these people have created absolute fear and panic amongst millions of people that they're not actually going to be able to get through the winter. There was a thing on the news last night with a guy talking to a guy who was literally going out to this, what they call a warm place, where he's allowed to go in and just sit by the radiator all day because he can't afford to turn on the heating at home. I mean, that's what we're talking about. And they just think it's a game. Bring back Boris. A liar, a lawbreaker, somebody who's literally, having lost office not long ago, what's the first thing he does?

• 16:54Alastair Campbell?

  Sign up with a speaker agency, make a few hundred grand for telling a few jokes to a bunch of Yanks, and then goes on holiday in the Caribbean? You know, I really, really hope Johnson hangs around, thinks he can be Prime Minister, and he gets booted out in general election and loses his seat because the guy is a total and utter disgrace.

• 17:12Rory Stewart?

  I agree 100%. He's a total and utter disgrace. He was a terrible, terrible Prime Minister, and there is nothing sort of more revealing of just how much trouble British politics is in than the fact that people seriously consider that after he was kicked out, with the British public, I mean, if you look at my friend JJ's word maps defining him as a liar... With polling that demonstrated he was going to lose every constituency in the country almost, with having broken the ministerial code, mismanaged thing after thing after thing, just a bad human being and a bad prime minister. And the fact that people are now looking to bring him back shows just how mad it is. And I think what it shows above

• 17:57Rory Stewart?

  all is the system which Boris benefited from.

• 18:02Alastair Campbell?

  Boris Johnson.

• 18:02Rory Stewart?

  Boris Johnson benefited from. So the system that he's created is so fractured and surreal that it lends itself to this kind of chancer. Because only really, somebody who is a chancer is able to pretend that they can please all the 25 different factions in the Conservative Party. You know, flirt with the anti-environmentalist, then flirt with the environmentalist, pretend you're going to be good to the unionists and then betray them, turn around in 50 different directions, pretend you're going to cut taxes and put them out, do everything that he does. And it's almost as though the Conservative Party has deliberately created a structure and a system where the only person that can survive

• 18:46Rory Stewart?

  is somebody who's a kind of mad, egotistical gambler.

• 18:50Alastair Campbell?

  Do you, if you think, if it did come down to Sunak v Mordaunt, and if the vote was simply decided by the MPs, and I think you and a lot of your former colleagues would actually quite like, who would win that?

• 19:01Rory Stewart?

  Well, Rishi Sunak, we know that from last time round, I think, because...

• 19:04Alastair Campbell?

  But you don't think things might have changed?

• 19:07Rory Stewart?

  No, I think he would still command the majority of the MPs. He had a big lead amongst MPs, and I think he'd have it again. And I think this disaster has only vindicated and strengthened his position. But the thing that I would be worried about, and I very much, as you probably picked up during our things, was backing Rishi Sunak against Liz Truss. Not that I have a choice, I'm not a Conservative member, but I definitely thought he was a much better potential prime minister. But I think the problems now are so extreme. And I think Liz Truss, this is actually one of something I want to talk to you about. I said, I felt she lacked many, many things, but one of the things she lacked most fundamentally was really the ability to communicate, that if she had any hope... Of holding the party together, the country together, the economy together.

• 19:52Rory Stewart?

  She needed to be able to empathise, listen, talk and communicate. Do you agree?

• 19:57Alastair Campbell?

  I do agree. And I think, look, I think, deep down, it's not just about communication. It's about what you do. But I think, for example, her final PMQs yesterday.

• 20:07Alastair Campbell?

  I don't know whether she gets one more, I don't know. But yes, what was the word she started, the answer to the very first question against Keir Starmer? I have been very clear. Now, every time she says I've been very clear, people, people around the country just laugh at her now. Because it's become one of those things that she says, I am determined to deliver. She is like a robot. And of course, these other, there was that Anne-Marie Trevellian across the airwaves this morning. I mean, the inability of a cabinet minister to get through a word of more than one syllable without saying um or ah was just mind blowing. You have to be able to speak clearly. You have to be able to convince people. Let me say, by the way, Roy, two, I'm going to draw attention to two. I've written a piece for the Eye paper about this, two stellar pieces of communication this week.

• 20:52Alastair Campbell?

  One of them, you said, after we interviewed Mark Drayford, you found him a bit boring. I don't know if you saw his clip in the assembly.

• 20:59Rory Stewart?

  I did.

• 21:00Alastair Campbell?

  Unbelievable. And that was raw, passionate.

• 21:03Rory Stewart?

  Passionate, angry and very effective.

• 21:06Alastair Campbell?

  And totally, totally justified. And the other one, what's the other one I'm going to give you?

• 21:10Rory Stewart?

  Dunne.

• 21:11Alastair Campbell?

  Charles Walker.

• 21:12Rory Stewart?

  Charles Walker, yeah, Charles Walker.

• 21:13Alastair Campbell?

  Did you see Charles Walker yesterday?

• 21:14Rory Stewart?

  I did, and I'm an admirer of Charles Walker. And just to remind people, he's an MP and I think it might even be the son of an MP. But anyway, he's an MP who's been in for a very long time.

• 21:23Alastair Campbell?

  He's been in for 17 years. He's, he's never been a minister. I've always had a bit of a soft spot for him because he's one of the first. There was a debate on mental health a few years ago and four MPs spoke about their own struggles with mental health challenges and he was one of the four. And I've always liked him for that because I thought it was a big moment and sort of breaking down the barriers on that. So I've always had a bit of a soft spot for him. But he basically, what came out, I honestly thought he was going to cry. He was, he was, he was a bit like Bart Drayford. He was coldly, viscerally angry. And he said, I hope these people.

• 21:58Alastair Campbell?

  Who sit at that cabinet table and they've got their ministerial red boxes because they put Liz Truss there and she rewarded them. I hope they're feeling pleased with themselves. The only thing I didn't like about what he said, he said they've done so much damage to the Conservative Party. And I hate the way that these Tories keep talking about the damage to the Conservative Party and as if the country very much comes second.

• 22:19Rory Stewart?

  Yeah. He also said, I think he'd had enough of talentless people achieving minister opposition.

• 22:23Alastair Campbell?

  Absolutely, absolutely, yeah.

• 22:25Rory Stewart?

  So just to come back to this communications point, the classic example, I think, where politics and communication really matters and where, you know, I'd like to come to you on this, is her press conference last week. Do you remember the one where she was on stage for, I think it was seven, nine minutes, took two questions? Now, this was absolutely central moment where she needed to calm the markets, she needed to win back the party, and she needed to try to articulate a future vision. She needed to bring people with her. This is where we are. This went wrong. This is what we're going to do about it. Follow me. And she just somehow can't do that. And I think it's because she was trained in the David, she was one of David Cameron's darlings. I mean, he promoted

• 23:10Rory Stewart?

  her faster than almost anyone else. She was in the cabinet within four years. And she was called in those states, I remember, when I challenged Cameron's team on that, this is why she promoted so quickly, they said, she's a great media communicator. What they meant, I think, is that she rigorously said, I've been very clear, and then repeated whatever David Cameron's line was.

• 23:29Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:30Rory Stewart?

  But what she doesn't seem to be able to do is to reach out to the country, empathize. And that, I think, is something Tony Blair, at his best, was very, very good at. Good at sensing the moment, good at sensing when he needed to raise his game. That was the moment to raise your game, right? That's when you really needed to raise your rhetorical game.

• 23:46Alastair Campbell?

  Well, one of the rules of political leadership and crisis management is that the big, put the biggest effort into the biggest moments. That was a big moment. She'd lost her chancellor, and she had to go out there and show authority and leadership and credibility. And by performing as she did, she further drained her leadership and credibility and authority.

• 24:09Rory Stewart?

  One of the things I thought is a really great politician with charisma, I don't know, Bill Clinton or Barack Obama or somebody, you could almost imagine that they would really make a thing of being there, taking the questions. You know, I'd almost be tempted to sit on the edge of the stage or go down into the audience and just show that you're not afraid.

• 24:27Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I agree that both Clinton and Tony, I mean, when Tony, when we'd build up to the Iraq War, I think I've said to you before that we had, well, Tony hated it, but we had this, this thing called the masochism strategy where he just went out and basically got beaten up by people relentlessly criticizing him, asking him questions, and he tried to kind of deal with them. But what was so obvious was that she was, she was running away. Now, look, somebody said to me, I don't know if this is true, somebody said to me that after she'd gone out after that, she, she was very close to tears. I've got no idea if that's true or not, but it would give an explanation as to why suddenly she just said, that's it, enough questions and walked off.

• 25:02Rory Stewart?

  Yeah.

• 25:02Alastair Campbell?

  But I, you know, I said in the Q and A, which we put out this morning, that this thing about, I felt she had no imposter syndrome. I'm very grateful. We have such wonderful listeners. I was inundated with people telling me, this is known as the Dunning Kruger effect.

• 25:16Rory Stewart?

  You've not been following my Twitter. I've been tweeting about the Dunning Kruger effect.

• 25:20Alastair Campbell?

  Have you?

• 25:20Rory Stewart?

  A few weeks ago. Yeah.

• 25:22Alastair Campbell?

  When, in relation to what?

• 25:23Rory Stewart?

  The politicians. I mean, it's a, it's a really good one on the old politicians, isn't it? But I, I attached it to Liz Truss about four weeks ago.

• 25:29Alastair Campbell?

  Oh, brilliant. Well, you're way ahead of your time. But anyway, so the Dunning Kruger effect, for those who, unlike Rory, haven't Googled it before, I've Googled it today, is, is, is a cognitive bias whereby people with low ability, expertise or experience regarding a certain type of a task or area of knowledge tend to overestimate their ability or knowledge. She tends to overestimate her ability and this, look where it's ended.

• 25:55Rory Stewart?

  Very sad. So just, just a plug for a book, a big, big bestseller coming out Christmas, published by Harper Collins, by Harry Cole. It's called Out of the Blue, The Biography of Liz Truss. And on that, we'll just go to the break.

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• 26:40Speaker 05

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• 26:43Speaker 06

  It's me, the.

• 26:43Speaker 05

  Priceline Negotiator.

• 26:46Speaker 06

  We don't need the jingle twice.

• 26:47Speaker 05

  What about a third time?

• 26:49Speaker 06

  Stop it. This is about vacation inflation and how Priceline negotiates amazing deals on hotels, flights, and rental cars.

• 26:55Speaker 05

  Seems like they just started.

• 26:57Speaker 06

  Yeah, but I didn't mention that you can save up to 60% off hotels in the Priceline app.

• 27:02Speaker 05

  Time to read the timeline.

• 27:03Speaker 06

  Fine. No one deals more deals than.

• 27:05Speaker 05

  Priceline.

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  Please stop.

• 27:07Speaker 05

  Priceline.

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  Touche.

• 27:09Speaker 05

  Priceline.

• 27:10Speaker 06

  Priceline.

• 27:12Speaker 07

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• 28:11Rory Stewart?

  Welcome back to The Rest Is Politics with me Rory Stewart.

• 28:14Alastair Campbell?

  And me Alastair Campbell. And Rory, I can tell our listeners Rory's excited, Rory's very excited. He's very excited. Go on Rory, tell us why you're excited. 150 to one.

• 28:24Rory Stewart?

  Oh, that's no, that's what I'm particularly excited. I've got 150. Yeah, that's right. We've just been through the betting odds on who's going to be the next prime minister. And I'm delighted to see that I'm now neck and neck with Priti Patel and the Deputy Prime Minister Theresa Coffey. Despite the fact I seem to be sitting in a hotel in Rwanda. So that maybe suggests that maybe Priti Patel's chances aren't as strong as they were last time round. I also, I'm not sure sadly, how many copies this great biography of Liz Truss is going to sell in the big Christmas sales for Harper Collins. But maybe I'm being a bit mean to borrow for Harry Cole.

• 28:55Alastair Campbell?

  I saw, I did think Keir Starmer, I thought, I saw his opening question yesterday in PMQs on the back of the Harry Cole book. Out by, Out by Christmas, is that the, is that the release date or the title? I thought that was quite good. Shall we go through the odds?

• 29:11Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, go, give us the odds then.

• 29:13Alastair Campbell?

  Right. So, so Rishi Sunak is odds on favourite, eight to 11.

• 29:17Rory Stewart?

  Yep.

• 29:18Alastair Campbell?

  Penny Mordaunt, nine to four.

• 29:19Rory Stewart?

  What does nine, what does nine to four mean? If I bet nine pounds, I get four pounds?

• 29:23Alastair Campbell?

  No, if you bet four pounds, you get nine pounds.

• 29:25Rory Stewart?

  Got you. Right.

• 29:25Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah. I, I speak here, by the way, as the father of a professional gambler, who is, who in my case has never put a bet on in my entire life.

• 29:35Rory Stewart?

  But on Sunak, if I bet 11 pounds, I only get eight pounds, which means they really think he's going to win.

• 29:39Alastair Campbell?

  Correct, correct. Or it means, or it means that somebody has put a lot of money on.

• 29:43Rory Stewart?

  Okay. Well, somebody with a lot of money has put a lot of money on.

• 29:47Alastair Campbell?

  We know that Rishi does know quite a lot of hedge fund guys, doesn't he? Boris Johnson is four to one. And that's interesting because earlier in the day, he was way out, like 33 or something.

• 29:58Rory Stewart?

  Yeah.

• 29:58Alastair Campbell?

  Ben Wallace, 16 to one. Badenoch, which is a ridiculous idea, 33 to one. Braverman, which is even more ridiculous, 66. Tugendhat, 66. Grant Chaps, 80. And as you say, Priti Patel, Theresa Coffey and Rory Stewart, 150 to one.

• 30:13Rory Stewart?

  Mighty opponent. And my, my, my, when I was in the final round against Boris Johnson BBC debates, I was at six to one. But I see that Boris Johnson is now ahead of me at four to one. So.

• 30:23Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, yeah. I, I, I do think that's where, where it is all heading. I mean, we could be wrong because the whole thing has been such a, such a convulsion. But I, I think if they, if they choose Sunak. I think that's fine for Labour. I think Sunak then probably will be allowed a little bit of time to see whether he can stabilise things. I just think the Conservative Party's now so divided, the economics are so bad. Penny Mordaunt, I don't, I don't see that happening. Johnson, if that happens, Keir can go to the beach and the rest are all just also-runs.

• 30:56Rory Stewart?

  So JJ.

• 30:58Alastair Campbell?

  What are you, what are you eating Rory?

• 30:59Rory Stewart?

  Some crisps.

• 31:00Alastair Campbell?

  You can't eat crisps on a podcast.

• 31:02Rory Stewart?

  No, no, they don't.

• 31:03Alastair Campbell?

  No, no.

• 31:05Rory Stewart?

  What can I eat on a podcast? I'm really hungry.

• 31:07Alastair Campbell?

  No, I don't care. You cannot eat. Look Rory, have you ever been in a cinema where somebody eats tortilla chips next to you?

• 31:14Rory Stewart?

  That's me. I'm the guy eating tortilla chips next to you.

• 31:16Alastair Campbell?

  You're the guy who's gonna get, you're the guy who's gonna get a real mouthful if you're in the cinema. And we're gonna have, we've got hundreds of thousands of listeners. If they hear you munching a crisp, they're not going to like.

• 31:26Rory Stewart?

  More serious point, JJ, my great hero, the pollster.

• 31:29Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 31:29Rory Stewart?

  He's, he's said, he's framed it as a choice between another risky unknown, into which category he put Penny Mordaunt, Ben Wallace.

• 31:39Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 31:39Rory Stewart?

  A toxic known, under which category he put Boris Johnson. And the least toxic known, Rishi Sunak. And he says, if you put it like that, it's a bit of a, bit of a no brainer.

• 31:50Alastair Campbell?

  Oh yeah, but it was a no brainer when it was Sunak v Trust, which is why I presume the 1922 committee is thinking, how the hell do we stop the members being involved?

• 31:58Rory Stewart?

  And I also think that it's the, I imagine, as I say, I'm in, I'm in Africa, but the, I imagine there's a lot of journalists having a miserable time having to talk about every candidate and sound fresh and interesting about them at the moment. But the truth is.

• 32:13Alastair Campbell?

  I've got breaking news Rory, I've got breaking news.

• 32:15Rory Stewart?

  Oh, go on then.

• 32:16Alastair Campbell?

  And it's exactly as I predicted.

• 32:18Rory Stewart?

  Go on.

• 32:19Alastair Campbell?

  Candidates will need the backing of at least 100 Conservative MPs and nominations close by 2pm on Monday.

• 32:27Rory Stewart?

  Wow.

• 32:28Alastair Campbell?

  So there you go. Yeah.

• 32:29Rory Stewart?

  Okay. So, so, so just to run through this list then very quickly. Tom Tugendhat, I think was in the final rounds, was up in the 30s. So he, he doesn't have a chance. Camille Bedenot was nowhere near 100. Rishi Sunak actually was the only one crossing 100, I think initially, as you came through those races in the early, early rounds. And Penny Mordaunt wasn't anywhere near 100. So it's possible, possible, although I think unlikely, but it's possible that he'll be the only person to be able to cross the threshold. I, I think unlikely because the one thing we know from Tory leadership races is that the favourite, I think, was this a fact from Rory, your son, that the favourite almost never wins?

• 33:07Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, absolutely. It was. Yeah. Yeah.

• 33:09Rory Stewart?

  And he was right, wasn't he? He was right because Rishi Sunak was the favourite and he didn't win.

• 33:13Alastair Campbell?

  Hmm. So what's going to happen with this one then?

• 33:15Rory Stewart?

  I think the, the ability of the Conservative Party to shoot itself in the head is extraordinary at the moment.

• 33:20Alastair Campbell?

  I think there might be rebellion against this. I think some of them, you're eating a crisp Rory, just because you've gone on mute doesn't mean I can't see you're eating a crisp. And I bet you're Googling at the same time, 1922 rules.

• 33:31Rory Stewart?

  It's a cashew nut.

• 33:33Alastair Campbell?

  No, I, I, I wonder if.

• 33:34Rory Stewart?

  You're always threatened by Google. I think, I'm also worried that you don't know how to do Google.

• 33:39Alastair Campbell?

  I'm a way, I'm a waybo man or whatever it's called.

• 33:42Rory Stewart?

  Exactly.

• 33:43Alastair Campbell?

  I wonder though, whether some of the MPs will think that this is, I mean, this, might this lead to a stop Sunak movement?

• 33:51Rory Stewart?

  Well, do, do you know where the stop Sunak potentially comes from? The one person who did easily cross 100 MPs, of course, was Boris Johnson in 2019. So when I was running against him in the leadership, you remember it was Jeremy Hunt, Michael Gove, Sajid Javid, me, running. And Boris Johnson was well above 100 votes most of the way through almost every round.

• 34:12Alastair Campbell?

  Well, more than 211 backed him in the confidence vote.

• 34:15Rory Stewart?

  Did you just Google that?

• 34:16Alastair Campbell?

  No, I didn't. Dom, who is our producer, put it in the chat box. And I beat you to reading it. I mean, you know, you just go, if you weren't concentrating so much on your very noisy crisps.

• 34:27Rory Stewart?

  That's a cashew nut. Okay. Right. So just, just to come back to this then. So Boris Johnson could do it. And as you said, 211 MPs backed him in the confidence vote. How many want him back? We don't know, but quite possible it's over 100. Rishi Sunak should be able to mobilise over 100. Penny Morden, don't know. I think she'd struggle to get those numbers. And so I think the 1922 committee is trying to guarantee that there will be at most two people going forward to be voted on. And what they're hoping is it's going to be just one. They're hoping it's going to be Theresa May 2017. So there have been so many of these things. Everyone's getting puzzled. But again, for our Tubular listeners, when Theresa May ran in, sorry, 2016, what happened is that she didn't have to go to the membership because there were

• 35:12Rory Stewart?

  two in the final round and the other person, who was Andrea Ledson, dropped out. So she was, there was no membership election. She came through by default on the back of the MPs. And I think there'll be many people hoping, well, certainly Sunak supporters, Rishi Sunak supporters, be hoping that will happen with him.

• 35:28Alastair Campbell?

  I could be wrong, but I think, I think they've, I don't know, I have very bad vibes about this one from your former party's perspective. We shall see.

• 35:38Rory Stewart?

  One of the things that I'd like to get on to, if we had a second, and again, Dom, who our producer, has reminded us there's 356 Tory MPs, so there can only be three candidates max. And I think that's extremely unlikely they can split each other's votes. So I think there's probably two max that we'd have, is to try to think about who can possibly do the job of Prime Minister now and what a poisoned chalice this now is. Because I agree with you that of these candidates, Rishi Sunak is the most experienced, he's the most known quantity, he will probably be the most reassuring to the markets, but

• 36:14Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, he'd probably keep Hunter's Chancellor as well.

• 36:16Rory Stewart?

  Probably keep Hunter's Chancellor. But I think this is a time for an extraordinary charismatic communicator. I think it's going to be very, very difficult to just play a straight bat. I think to win back the confidence of the country and the markets and begin to win back the confidence of this party, which is fractured, as I say, in 12 different directions. You have to be a phenomenal politician and the energy you would have to have and the rhetorical skill and the ability to persuade and convince and excite a totally distraught party, a deeply angry public, a very, very cynical media environment. I just, I mean, how would you

• 36:57Rory Stewart?

  set about it if you became, let's say, I don't know what the odds are on you, maybe 151 to one. What are the odds of you becoming manager of Burnley again?

• 37:05Alastair Campbell?

  The lowest I ever got was a hundred to one, which was when Brian Laws lost the job. I think by the time Sean Dyche came in, I was about a thousand to one. But I think the chance, I think the chance of me being Tory leader, probably about eighty five billion to one. I think if I was the last person on the planet, it might happen.

• 37:20Rory Stewart?

  Okay, so just imagine in that strange situation, you you became Prime Minister next week. What would you try to do? How would you think about the first two weeks in this particular job? So let me give you your problem. You've got mortgage interest rates have tripled since the end of last year. You've got energy prices at record levels and an energy price cap that the government can barely afford to keep going for six months. The government is spending and borrowing out of control. Inflation's shooting through ten percent. The trade unions are going to be out on the streets, quite rightly and understandably, demanding pay rises, which the government doesn't feel it can meet. The Bank of England ramping up interest rates, our currency weak, our stock market tanking, and a party that is demanding growth that can't be had, defence spending that can't be afforded.

• 38:05Alastair Campbell?

  Tux cuts it can't have.

• 38:06Rory Stewart?

  Tux cuts it can't have. So that's your job. You've taken over. What would you say in your first two days in that job?

• 38:12Alastair Campbell?

  I'd say to my Chief of Staff, get me Ursula von der Leyen on the phone. And I'd say, what chance, what chance is it rejoining the European Union? We need growth. I definitely, I think if I, if it's Rishi Sunak, I think he would have to start off by apologising for the mess that he's, that he's been left with. I think he'd have to admit that he was part of many years of this government. I think he'd then have to try to do the, this is going to be a long, hard road. And we have to start with some very, very, very tough decisions. He'd build on what Hunter's been trying to do. I don't think there's any easy way out of it. I think he's going to find it harder than you think. It's interesting, I've talked to a few Tory MPs and grandees this afternoon.

• 38:53Alastair Campbell?

  And I think they're being a bit cavalier about how easy they think it's going to be to resist the pressure for a general election. I think the pressure for a general election is going to be enormous and I don't think it's just going to be on social media and I don't think it's just going to come from, you know, Keir Starmer, Nicola Sturgeon, Ed Davey, Etowah. I think the country, I think the country's sickened by the whole thing, I really do. And I think that they feel that they've been given a soap opera. So I think he's got to come in and, and basically say, this is going to be bloody hard and I'm going to try and steady the ship. But I'd, I'd start with that. Apologize, do the tough stuff and then try to get some sort of, you know, stability within his party. But I think they're a rabble now. They're a rabble. I don't think that you can hold them together.

• 39:33Rory Stewart?

  Well, it's part, it's part of this phenomenon, I think we've talked about in the past, which is the kind of incredible acceleration of British politics. I just was talking, talking to, no, not Googling. I talked to, was talking to a Rwandan politician this morning and he was asking about British politics. And I went back to this figure, I think we produced, which was that there'd been something like six foreign secretaries in 24 years and then there've been six foreign secretaries in about seven years. There was someone on Twitter saying that his son has lived through four chancellors, three home secretaries, two prime ministers and two monarchs and he's four months old.

• 40:05Alastair Campbell?

  It's incredible.

• 40:06Rory Stewart?

  But the, the thing is partly driven by a new culture in British politics, which is becoming ever more mad. So another statistic we heard of the amazing Tim Bell, great Guardian article, where he pointed out that traditionally in governments, particularly in conservative governments, when a new prime minister took over, they kept the old cabinet. So Churchill, 90% of the cabinet was kept. It's the same with Eden, Macmillan, Hume, even with John Major, nearly 90% of Margaret Thatcher's cabinet was kept. And, and this was because the party managed its internal fractions and dissension by having these senior figures from different factions of the party. They didn't try to purge, they didn't try to bring in loyalists. They tried to represent the fact that the Conservative Party was a broad

• 40:50Rory Stewart?

  coalition by having a kind of team of rivals, to take the name of that Lincoln book, in their cabinet. But one of the most striking facts about Boris Johnson is he kept only 30% of Theresa May's cabinet compared to, you know, these previous people. And unlike Theresa May, who actually had swapped over a certain number of people, she had at least kept her rivals in that cabinet, the senior leaders of different factions. He famously, you know, threw out 21 of us, but particularly purged the cabinet of anybody who disagreed with him and created. A very inexperienced cabinet of loyalists. And got rid of 70% of the people. Now, this began this habit, this mad, mad habit of endless reshuffles.

• 41:30Alastair Campbell?

  Rishi Sunak will have to build a more, if he gets the job, will have to build a more unity cabinet. But also, I think the quality of the cabinet ministers that we've seen is so poor. And you'd have to accept, Roy, I know you do defend Theresa May, and I'm a great believer in loyalty, and I think that's fine. But I think it was a terrible, terrible mistake. I think, I agree with you, you should bring in your rivals, but to make Boris Johnson Foreign Secretary was a terrible mistake.

• 41:55Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, I agree. I think it was dreadful making Boris Johnson Foreign Secretary. She didn't need to do that. But it's also incredibly important in managing a party that you bring all the factions of the party in. Because if you don't, you see what's happening now. I mean, it's almost unimaginable. I don't think we've seen for 100 years. I think they did this to themselves in the very early 20th century. Somebody was saying back in 1903, 1905, a party with a huge majority that had no reason to go to an election or topple prime ministers to start eating itself up internally. But Rishi Sunak will have to find a way of including Brexiteers and Remainers, however painful it is. But the problem is they're all behaving now like some sort of cliche vision of a 19th century prima ballerina, which is that

• 42:37Rory Stewart?

  Suella Braverman, probably he will feel that he has to bring back in again because she now seems to represent the sort of hard anti-immigration Brexit wing.

• 42:46Alastair Campbell?

  We can't, he can't do that. He can't do that.

• 42:48Rory Stewart?

  But she appears willing to walk out at a moment's notice, which is not what you want.

• 42:51Alastair Campbell?

  I've just seen, by the way, some new, some different odds. It's important to get different odds, Roy. Don't just go one. These are from Star Sports Bet. There's a guy called William Kedjani, who you often see around about College Green with posters and things. And he's slipped in. It's very similar to the ones we had from Sky Bet. But the two names that he's got in there are 100 to one that we didn't have were James Cleverly and Nadeem Zahawi. But the whole thing is absurd. None of these people can get 100 nominations. So we really are talking about two. The other thing that's going to have to happen, because we've had this incredible churn. So many people who've been ministers, and I really do think, by the way, none of them should get a ministerial severance allowance. She should certainly not be allowed resignation on, as Noel frankly should Johnson. But he's going to have to sack people as well. Whoever

• 43:33Alastair Campbell?

  comes in is going to have to sack people as well. That creates more enemies, creates more instability.

• 43:38Rory Stewart?

  Yeah.

• 43:38Alastair Campbell?

  There's a very interesting vox pop that Fiona was telling me about, where it was, they were talking to Tory voters at the last election in a Tory seat that Labour have to win. And virtually to a man and woman, they're saying the only way to sort this out now is a general election. And I think that's what the country feels. And I think if you go against the strength of that, when it's a real feeling in the country, I think you'll pay an even heavier price.

• 43:59Rory Stewart?

  Well, let's, let's follow up. We're doing another pod, hopefully not till Monday, but maybe before, if things keep moving at this kind of rate. And but interesting to see if someone does some stats on whether the public feels that they generally want an election. Be interesting to see what the data is in that, because I think there'll be some people who the last thing they want is to push the soap opera into their own lives.

• 44:19Alastair Campbell?

  But it is in their, what's amazing, Roy, this one, this is in their lives. You know, I, I was struck this morning at the, you know, just going around the place is, is like, it's one of those rare moments when people who normally don't care, don't want to talk about politics, they are. And they're not doing it in a positive way. They're basically like, what the hell is going on? I can't take any more of this.

• 44:38Rory Stewart?

  Well, it's very, very sad because I, I was with an Irish ambassador in another country, another African country who wants remain nameless. But he said to me, you know, he saw a lot of, a lot of problems about the, the British, that he always thought of them as sensible. And the last six, seven years has definitely trashed that brand. Because one of the things I remember when I came into Parliament in 2010, talking to a Greek member of Parliament who said how envious he was of Britain. Because the one thing that had been true of Britain for 200 years is that you knew that if a prime minister was elected. They were going to be pretty stable. And above all, you knew that the party that won the majority, when they presented a budget, they would get it through their parliament. It wasn't like the Greek parliament where the budget could collapse at any moment.

• 45:22Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 45:23Rory Stewart?

  But we've just seen with quasi-Courtege's mini-budget. And I think that's one of the reasons why the financial markets are even more frightened is that Britain, for all its problems, was seen as having with the Bank of England and with the Treasury and with its funny system. You know, one of the things I used to complain about when I was a member of parliament is that it often felt like an elective dictatorship, which is it was very disciplined with three-line whips, the whips told you how to vote, and the Prime Minister was almost a kind of president, and MPs didn't have very much power. And that had been true right back to the 1950s. Very, very rare, even in what people think of as the good old days, for people to rebel against their government. Broadly speaking, Labour backbenchers, Conservative backbenchers, went in and voted with a party weapon, backed their government.

• 46:08Rory Stewart?

  And we used to get a lot of stick about that because, you know, obviously our constituents often wanted us to rebel against the government and they wanted us to show our independent mind. But the answer from the whips is this may be the lesser of two evils because at least we can deliver on a manifesto, at least there's some discipline, at least there's some mandate, at least the whole thing doesn't come crumbling down. And what we're seeing now is a return to the politics of the 1700s, which is every MP with their own idea, doing their own thing and no sense whatsoever. So it doesn't matter that the Conservatives theoretically have an 80-seat majority because they're not really a party anymore. So they don't really have a majority because they can't get their votes through, they can't get fracking through, they can't get the budget through, because they're not one party, they're 12 parties.

• 46:53Alastair Campbell?

  But in that context, I thought it was interesting that today Keir Starmer was doing his speech to the TUC conference. And I think a few weeks ago, that would have been a very, very difficult moment for Keir. You know, I'm sure there are lots of issues that they still think they wish Keir was stronger on in terms of what they want. But actually, there was an awful lot of goodwill there because I think they suddenly thought, hmm, we might be getting a Labour government quite soon. And he did a very solid, serious speech, had some very good lines about the Tories, as he did yesterday. And I, you know, as I've been saying repeatedly, I still think Labour has to do more to seal the deal with the public in terms of policy and, and, and some

• 47:34Alastair Campbell?

  of the difficult choices they're going to face too. But I, I, I think that I said, I think I said a couple of weeks ago that sometimes confidence is so important and, and what you've got at the moment is Labour confident and the Tories just feeling absolutely bereft. Now, they will close the gap. Whoever replaces Truss, I said this to a member of the Shadow Cabinet this morning, whoever replaces Truss, the gap will close quite quickly. And, and, and Labour needs to be aware of that.

• 48:01Rory Stewart?

  And there is still a problem, I'm afraid, and I know you're increasingly on his side of Keir Starmer's communication style. I watched him give an interview this afternoon, and he'd clearly been given these lines, you know, what a mess, it's not a soap opera, can't have a revolving door of chaos. But he did that awful thing that they would ask him a question, don't you feel sorry for Liz Truss? And he would repeat, word for word, the same lines that he'd just said 45 seconds earlier, same phrases. And the problem is, he sounds like he's reciting lines.

• 48:30Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, the only thing I'd say about that, I mean, I, I get this, but the thing is that what happens with these bloody broadcasters, you do an interview with them, and they, they want you, they want the clip, right? And they're probably bored already with the Labour on the general election stories. They think they want to get something else. They, they probably wanted him actively to say, oh, I felt a bit sorry for Liz Truss. But the minute he says that, he's actually lost the whole point of what he's trying to communicate right now. It's like when, do you remember when Ed Miliband did that? He was literally asked the same question about, or a different question 15 times, and he said the same thing.

• 49:05Rory Stewart?

  Yeah.

• 49:05Alastair Campbell?

  And then the buggers went to play the whole interview. But I think you have to, I think you, you, sometimes it's difficult to get that balance right between authentic conversational communication and banging a clip out.

• 49:16Rory Stewart?

  Well, I think what you, what you've said in the past is a good one, which is that you can have the same message, but my goodness, you can't have the same line. You can't produce the same phrase. You've got to be smart enough to be able to keep getting your point across with different phrases.

• 49:29Alastair Campbell?

  I totally agree. But would you, would you, would you at least accept that you were wrong about Mark Greatford being boring?

• 49:35Rory Stewart?

  Oh, yeah, he definitely wasn't boring then. And it's true that I, it's true that I think, I still think Keir Starmer is very boring. So maybe he's just got to get angry. Maybe we've got, actually, that would, this, that's true. My advice to him, I'm not anything like, having the right skills you have. But my advice to him is that actually, those lines would have been much better if he'd sounded angry. And he had every reason to be angry. And they're good lines, if you're angry.

• 49:55Alastair Campbell?

  I've got to say, Roy, I was seeing a young man today, who, I'm going to drop a really good name here. He works for David Beckham.

• 50:03Rory Stewart?

  David Beckham.

• 50:04Alastair Campbell?

  He's called, anyway, he's called Yosef. And he was saying, he's a big fan of the podcast. And I was actually with him.

• 50:09Rory Stewart?

  David Beckham's a big fan of the podcast?

• 50:11Alastair Campbell?

  Yosef is a big fan of the podcast. I don't know whether David Beckham is. And he basically said that he'd listened to our interview with Keir. And he said he really, really, really liked him as a result of it. And he, and he hadn't, he hadn't before. And what he said he really liked about it was this, this, that he was serious. And he answered the questions. And even though he actually said he thought he was a bit flaky on the economy when you were pushing him on that, he thought the overall impression was really, really positive. And I do think Keir's moving into a different place with the public. I really do.

• 50:40Rory Stewart?

  Here's, here's my, here's my challenge for you. And maybe this is something to explore much more in future podcasts. I think we should probably bring, bring this one to an end with, with a couple of quick things. Dom Johnson, our producer, has just pointed out that Henry Zeffman of The Times has said, there's a really important part of these leadership rules. There'll be an indicative vote of MPs. Once there are two candidates, Tory members will be given a very clear sense of which candidate stands the best chance of exerting their authority over the party. So clearly, the 1920 Committee has concluded, basically, that the problem is that leaders are being produced who do not command the support of the MPs. And they're going to try by setting that 100 threshold, I think, to have any one candidate. But if they have two candidates, they're going to try to make it as clear as they can to the leadership, and basically beg them to vote for the one that they prefer.

• 51:25Alastair Campbell?

  But in which case, why not change the rules so that it doesn't go to the members? What's that about? The whole thing's crazy.

• 51:31Rory Stewart?

  Well, I think the whole thing is crazy because I think it's actually more democratic to have it voted on by democratically elected members of parliament than voted on by people who've paid £25. And I did want to push you on this because I think, I'm afraid the same applies to the Labour Party. It's equally problematic, the way Labour leaders are selected. And that's how we ended up with Jeremy Corbyn. And you may be lucky this time with Keir Starmer, but I think the structural problems are still there.

• 51:53Alastair Campbell?

  But do you not think, though, are you with these Tories that I've been speaking to who think there's no need at all for the Tories actually to think there should be a general election?

• 52:02Rory Stewart?

  I think that it's very difficult to think about that clearly and objectively because it feels at the moment like a very partisan question, partly because all the opposition parties are out.

• 52:14Alastair Campbell?

  No, but what do you think, but what do you think would be best for the country right now? A new, a fifth Tory Prime Minister in six years, foisted on us by the Tory Party? Or a general election where the country can actually make a choice about who should govern?

• 52:25Rory Stewart?

  Well, I think the, I think the main reason to support a general election is if you think Keir Starmer would be much better. So the main reason to support a general election is if you strongly thought the Labour Party would do a better job. So let me-

• 52:37Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I do.

• 52:38Rory Stewart?

  And you obviously do. So let me just tilt to that because I think that's a really important thing that I'd be worried about if I was a Labour strategist, which is the Conservative Party is in the most extraordinary chaos. Liz Truss and Kwasi Koting have done untold damage to the economy and Boris Johnson did untold damage to our seriousness as a country. But, and this is the problem, whenever we go into an election, regardless of whether it's soon or whether it's in a year and a half's time, the public has to try to decide who is best placed to try to steer us out of this economic mess, which has been created by Liz Truss and Kwasi Koting. And I think the very unfair, difficult thing for Labour.

• 53:23Rory Stewart?

  Is that even though the Tories created that mess, I'm not sure the voters at the moment are naturally going to think that Labour is best placed to lead them out of that economic mess if people are feeling that the economy is on its back and people are very, very sorely affected. And that's why at some point we're going to have to see a much clearer, more positive Labour economic message. I know you've given us all the reasons why they shouldn't be doing that now, but.

• 53:46Alastair Campbell?

  No, no, I think they should, but and I think they have been. I'm not sure yet that the public are aware enough of what the outlines of it are, or that the detail is deep enough. But I think the fact that the Tory MPs are openly saying that the reason they won't have a general election is because they know that they'd absolutely get smashed to smithereens right now, answers your question about whether people think Labour would do a better job. In a sense, what the the public may be saying, look, right now, anybody would do a better job. That's kind of what they are, a lot of them are saying. But I think they are reaching a judgment about about Keir Starmer and Rachel Reeves, which is which is more positive than it was even a few weeks ago. Now, I'm not saying that this is like Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, it's not. But the but I do think they're moving

• 54:29Alastair Campbell?

  in that direction. You know, to be absolutely frank, from the purely partisan Labour point of view, you maybe need this farce to go on even a bit longer. But I think I do honestly think the national interest would be served right now by a general election. And for all the ballyhoo that would create, and yes, people would be unsure for a few more weeks, etc. I just think this mess cannot go on.

• 54:53Rory Stewart?

  Just to just to finish, I just got a note from my mother, who you know.

• 54:56Alastair Campbell?

  I do.

• 54:57Rory Stewart?

  Saying I must remember to say that Liz Truss was very nicely came to my father's birthday party in the House of Commons when I'm being mean about her. So my mother wants to put on record that she did come to my father's birthday party.

• 55:10Alastair Campbell?

  That's good. We should just recognise the fact that you are in Rwanda. And I mean, presumably Suella Braverman's dream of seeing a front page picture on The Telegraph of a plane load of refugees on their way to Rwanda, presumably they're, are they celebrating in the streets of Rwanda? Or are they basically rather indifferent to the desires of Suella Braverman?

• 55:31Rory Stewart?

  I don't think there's much, much celebrating here. Seriously, on Rwanda, we should have another chance at some point to talk about Africa. I've just been in Malawi and then Kenya, now Rwanda, and then back to Kenya again next week. Africa is really at the receiving end of brutal outcome. I mean, the Rwandans I was talking to this morning just completely bewildered because they feel that there's no centre to the world anymore, that the United States has vacated the centre, that the world financial system's collapsing, that global conflict has torn energy and food to pieces. Any country that's in debt is in real trouble trying to service their debt. And it's completely bewildering, I think, looking from Sub-Saharan Africa at what's happening. And I'm afraid Britain is just

• 56:14Alastair Campbell?

  We're on the pitch.

• 56:15Rory Stewart?

  the most embarrassing, humiliating symbol of this. And I hope whoever comes in as Prime Minister focuses on restoring Britain's foreign policy, its development policy, and its focus on Africa, because Africa is where, you know, 40% of the population of the world will be born here by 2050. And the whole world's ignoring it.

• 56:37Alastair Campbell?

  Liz Truss was asked at PMQs yesterday about getting rid of DIFID and our commitment to the poorest, it was Andrew Mitchell, who we talked about in the Q and A. And her answer was such a heap of waffle and nonsense about how we're being more targeted in our aid and it's about trade and all this sort of stuff. I actually think when we talk, I know history, we're living it all the time and it'll be a long time before final judgements are reached about anything. But I really do think Brexit was an act of our decline. But I actually think that getting rid of DIFID and pulling the plug on Britain as a leading developed nation in the development sphere, I think that was a moment of decline for us as well.

• 57:15Rory Stewart?

  No, exactly. And Britain still does have a residual respect left over from those days. It's not all gone. All the US ambassadors I've been meeting are still very complimentary about British diplomats and British development workers. But what I'm beginning to hear

• 57:29Alastair Campbell?

  It's a shame the government wasn't.

• 57:30Rory Stewart?

  Yep. What I'm beginning to hear, though, increasingly is you've got to get back in the game because there's still that residual legacy, that credibility, but we will lose it pretty soon if we don't start returning and investing a bit of money and time into Africa.

• 57:45Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I had a text message this morning from somebody who works in an Asian government, Singapore government. And it was just, he was basically just sending me jokes that are circulating.

• 58:00Alastair Campbell?

  Within the Singaporean community about our government. And did you see Medvedev? Did you see Medvedev's tweet?

• 58:06Rory Stewart?

  Oh, no, we couldn't say. I don't know, the Russians mocking us.

• 58:09Alastair Campbell?

  Well, it was Medvedev said farewell. So farewell Liz Truss, the lettuce won.

• 58:15Rory Stewart?

  Oh, no, that was Medvedev.

• 58:17Alastair Campbell?

  That was.

• 58:17Rory Stewart?

  Well, I don't think it was some bright spat in Medvedev's office. His eye on that famous lettuce running against.

• 58:25Alastair Campbell?

  Oh, you got it, the Daily Star.

• 58:26Rory Stewart?

  Certainly, certainly. I've got a message now with Daily Star. Got to give them credit, but the big credit has got to go to The Economist. And I got a message from the editor of The Economist who wants to put on the record that the first newspaper to raise the question of whether Liz Truss would last longer than the lettuce was, in fact, The Economist. It was the Star had the genius of filming the lettuce next to a photograph of Liz Truss, but it was The Economist that first posed that question. I think The Economist was right to because unfortunately, most lettuce as I own would have outlasted Liz Truss. And on that, I think we should let everybody go.

• 58:57Alastair Campbell?

  Nice to talk to you. Have a nice time in Rwanda.

• 58:59Rory Stewart?

  Thank you. Speaks it.

• 59:04Speaker 02

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• 59:50Speaker 11

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