415: Ronda Paulson—Drinking from a Firehose

Ronda and her husband Corey founded Isaiah 117 House https://isaiah117house.com/ to provide a safe and loving home for children awaiting placement in the foster care system. Isaiah 177 House was featured on Mike's Facebook show, Returning the Favor. Ronda tells how her appearance on the show affected her mission, her life, and especially her health.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Mike Rowe?

  It's the way I heard it. I don't know what episode it is, and it doesn't matter. I've been on an emotional roller coaster. Our guest today made me cry.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  Twice.

• 0:13Mike Rowe?

  Once.

• 0:13Speaker 01

  I thought it was twice, man.

• 0:15Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, maybe. She really touched me, man. Her name is Rhonda Paulson, and I know her. I met Rhonda on Returning the Favor a couple of years ago. She lives in Tennessee. She and her husband Corey flew out here to do this podcast. And I invited them because, in part, I heard her on Bill Courtney's podcast not long ago.

• 0:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 0:36Mike Rowe?

  And I just had not been in touch with Rhonda, and I had no idea the extent to which Isaiah 117 house has grown.

• 0:47Speaker 01

  And it also came up, you brought her name up, you invoked her name in the episode with Bishop W.C. Martin.

• 0:54Mike Rowe?

  Right.

• 0:54Speaker 01

  Where you said, you know, basically, "Oh, you guys are kindred spirits. She's doing the same thing that you're doing."

• 1:00Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:00Speaker 01

  And in fact, she sounded a lot like him.

• 1:02Mike Rowe?

  So I don't know why I'm being pulled into this foster care world, honestly. Like, there's a whole nother situation with this organization called Care Portal, who keeps darkening my doorstep.

• 1:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:14Mike Rowe?

  I don't know. Maybe there's a higher power at work. Rhonda certainly thinks there is.

• 1:18Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:18Mike Rowe?

  Look, this episode is called Drinking from a Fire Hose. That's Rhonda's expression. Because what happened to her after her episode of Returning the Favor dropped back in March of 2020 was kind of unlike, well, I've seen the unintended consequences of that show happen before, but not to this level. Put the woman in the hospital four times.

• 1:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41Mike Rowe?

  The stress. You see, she left her cell phone number on her website. And after this thing aired, it struck such a chord with the 2 million people who watched it, and then the many millions who saw it after that. Well, Rhonda's life wound up going in a totally different direction. Her modest endeavor to make a difference in her little town of Elizabethon.

• 2:05Mike Rowe?

  Turned into this national surge. And she's been on a different path ever since. And I, I really didn't know whether to apologize or congratulate her. Happily, I think we're at a point now where congratulations are in order because she's so grateful for what happened. And I'm so humbled because 6,000 kids have basically been pulled out of the foster care system. As a result of the Isaiah 17 house and the weird level of notoriety it got from returning the favor. So yay us, I'm really super excited to share this story with you. But I'm also really humbled by the power of this microphone and the power of TV. And the power of, you know, sharing one person's story.

• 2:49Mike Rowe?

  I know that's all uncharacteristically earnest, but you got to admit Chuck. You mumble into a mic, you make some sounds and then 6,000 kids are transformed as a result.

• 3:00Speaker 01

  That's pretty good. I just want to say it's Isaiah 117 house.

• 3:04Mike Rowe?

  Yes.

• 3:04Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 3:05Mike Rowe?

  What did I call it?

• 3:06Speaker 01

  Isaiah 17, so.

• 3:07Mike Rowe?

  Oh, 117, it's a scripture.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  The one's important.

• 3:10Mike Rowe?

  Yeah. Do you know the scripture, smarty pants?

• 3:12Speaker 01

  Not by heart, but I mean, I got a Bible right over here. I could pull it up.

• 3:15Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, that would only take another two minutes that we'd have to cut out. And why do that when Rhonda Paulson is standing by? Her husband's here too. His name's Corey, you might hear me reference him. Corey got a vasectomy after they had a couple of kids because he really didn't want anymore.

• 3:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was done.

• 3:32Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, Rhonda wasn't.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:34Mike Rowe?

  And what happens after that? I don't want to spoil it, but um.

• 3:39Mike Rowe?

  It's great. And so is Rhonda. It's a transformational story and a cautionary tale. Because no matter how thirsty you are, my friends, drinking from a fire hose almost never ends as expected. Rhonda Paulson, right after this.

• 3:58Mike Rowe?

  Couple of weeks ago, on this very podcast, I talked with Brooke Rollins, our Secretary of Agriculture, about the incredibly complicated business of delivering affordable beef to our citizens without disadvantaging American ranchers. We also discussed the very controversial decision to import 300,000 metric tons of ground beef from various foreign countries and the maddening policy that allows meatpackers to label imported meat as a product of the USA. Well, shortly after that conversation, one of my sponsors, Good Ranchers, reported an unusually high level of interest in their product. And this is not surprising.

• 4:39Mike Rowe?

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• 5:21Mike Rowe?

  here in these United States, and that's guaranteed. Support your local ranchers by insisting on American meat delivered at GoodRanchers.com/row.

• 5:49Mike Rowe?

  First of all, thank you for not only signing the release, but not even reading it.

• 5:54Speaker 02

  Oh, I read it.

• 5:55Mike Rowe?

  Did you?

• 5:55Speaker 02

  Yes. You are allowed to exploit throughout the universe. That's amazing.

• 5:59Mike Rowe?

  Well, I watched you read it, and if you actually read it, then you're a speed reader, along with everything else that you do. But you did glance at it long enough. She like mutters, "In the known universe?"

• 6:12Speaker 01

  And the unknown, I believe, it says, yeah.

• 6:14Mike Rowe?

  That actually was an artifact from the first release that Discovery made me sign, like back in 1993. And it was the right to use whatever happens, both visual and audio, on the Discovery Channel. Any channel affiliated with the Discovery Channel. Any network affiliated with the Discovery Channel. Any media company or conglomerate affiliated with any network affiliated with the Discovery Channel on any planet in the solar system or body in the universe, known and unknown.

• 6:51Speaker 02

  You clearly read it.

• 6:52Mike Rowe?

  I read it. I immediately looked over my shoulder to see if there was maybe a camera rolling. Certain that somebody was screwing with me. But they weren't. And so, um, yeah, that's what we do now. Did we make you sign a release for returning the favor before we showed up?

• 7:07Speaker 02

  Um, no, because I didn't know you were coming. I really can't believe I didn't read that because I can't believe I even trust you after what happened to me with returning the favor. But for some reason I do. I trust you, Mike. Why is that?

• 7:18Mike Rowe?

  Well, it's difficult to know, given the fact that you didn't even know who the hell I was when I showed up.

• 7:25Speaker 02

  I didn't.

• 7:25Mike Rowe?

  Like, part of the surprise baked into the show was like, oh, gosh, they're gonna be so surprised when they find out we're not doing a little documentary. And then wait till Mike walks in. They'll be like, "Mike Rowe, what are you doing here? You just looked at me as if, like, oh, another man has walked in on the street."

• 7:41Speaker 02

  Well, everyone in the room was looking at you like you were supposed to be a big deal. So I thought, I thought

• 7:51Speaker 02

  you were supposed to be a big deal. I mean, I thought I was supposed to know you. That's what I kept thinking as you were walking to me. I thought, "I'm supposed to know him. I'm supposed to know him. I think he's the guy from Tim the Toolman Taylor."

• 8:05Speaker 02

  That's what was going through my head.

• 8:07Mike Rowe?

  No, wait a minute. Did you think I was maybe Tim Allen or Richard, what's his name? Who played Tim Allen's second?

• 8:11Speaker 02

  I thought you were Tim Allen, not the guy over the fence.

• 8:14Mike Rowe?

  Okay. Well, that's Wilson.

• 8:16Speaker 02

  Oh, no, I didn't think you were Wilson.

• 8:17Mike Rowe?

  But there's another guy, his buddy, Richard.

• 8:19Speaker 02

  No, no, no. You were not Richard. You were Tim Allen.

• 8:21Mike Rowe?

  Well, that's not bad to be mistaken for Tim Allen.

• 8:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, you played his brother on, uh, yeah, Last Man Standing.

• 8:27Mike Rowe?

  You probably didn't know that either, did you?

• 8:28Speaker 02

  I did not.

• 8:29Mike Rowe?

  You could literally fill a book with what you don't know about Miranda Poleson.

• 8:33Speaker 02

  I do not. And my mom was so disappointed because she thought Dolly Parton was coming.

• 8:39Speaker 01

  Dolly Parton?

• 8:40Speaker 02

  She was in on it. I was not. I did not know. And she just knew someone famous was coming and she just knew it was Dolly Parton.

• 8:46Mike Rowe?

  How does that work? How does the brain just make an assumptive leap?

• 8:50Speaker 02

  Like an hour and a half from us and she gives us free books through the library, Dolly Parton Library. Everybody gets free books in Tennessee.

• 8:57Mike Rowe?

  I love the way, and Corey, you can confirm that. You've been hearing this all your life, right? She says things that are both obscure and arcane in a way that makes you feel stupid for not knowing, right?

• 9:09Speaker 02

  Everyone knows about Dolly Parton in the library.

• 9:11Mike Rowe?

  Like, who wouldn't know that Dolly Parton lives right down the road? And what was it? Elizabethan?

• 9:15Speaker 02

  Elizabethan.

• 9:17Mike Rowe?

  I said it close to right, right?

• 9:18Speaker 02

  You did, you did.

• 9:19Mike Rowe?

  You're in the, uh, is it the southwestern part?

• 9:21Speaker 02

  No.

• 9:22Mike Rowe?

  Northeastern part? Okay.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  So close. So close.

• 9:26Mike Rowe?

  It's such a weird state, Tennessee.

• 9:28Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 9:29Mike Rowe?

  I mean, I say that as a...

• 9:30Speaker 02

  Well, we're sitting in California, so.

• 9:32Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 9:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:33Mike Rowe?

  I think it's bordered by, what, like nine states?

• 9:36Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 9:37Mike Rowe?

  Like, everything touches Tennessee.

• 9:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 9:40Mike Rowe?

  And you touch so many things in Tennessee because you're very handsy and grabby.

• 9:45Speaker 02

  What? I don't think I've ever been described like that, but I'll take it. Okay. Handsy and grabby.

• 9:52Mike Rowe?

  You've got to bring me up to speed.

• 9:53Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 9:53Mike Rowe?

  Let me tell you what I know.

• 9:55Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 9:55Mike Rowe?

  And this will sound crazy because we were returning favors at a rate when we met you. We were moving so fast and I was working on another project at the same time. And it was coming at me from all sides. What I remember is we had a really great day together. I remember you making me laugh. I remember making you cry. I think Corey might have cried.

• 10:19Speaker 02

  Corey cries all the time.

• 10:20Mike Rowe?

  He's a crier.

• 10:21Speaker 02

  He cries all the time.

• 10:21Mike Rowe?

  Right. Uh, your kids, I don't know, they cried really? They were more bemused?

• 10:26Speaker 02

  They don't, no, they don't cry.

• 10:28Mike Rowe?

  But what I'm telling you is I don't have nearly as clear a recollection of that day as I'm sure you do, because we were just on this hamster. I wasn't even sure when I left where I was leaving. I was pretty sure it was Kentucky or Tennessee. But I listened to Bill Courtney this morning on my walk and got kind of up to speed third hand. I really didn't know the extent to which things have apparently taken off for you guys.

• 10:59Speaker 02

  Blown up, exploded.

• 11:01Mike Rowe?

  Blown up real good?

• 11:02Speaker 02

  Real good.

• 11:04Mike Rowe?

  All right. What's the State of the Union over there at Isaiah House?

• 11:07Speaker 02

  So the day is kind of a blur for me too, because I didn't know what was happening. I truly believed a small documentary company was coming. And then this guy walks in that supposedly is famous and everybody is really excited about it.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  I like supposedly in that sentence. That's my favorite word in that sentence.

• 11:25Speaker 02

  But my brother was really excited to see you. So he was. He watched every episode of Dirty Jobs. So my brother knew who you were. But the whole day, I just couldn't understand what was happening. The day itself is kind of a blur for me as well. But what happened after is very crystal clear in my mind. So our episode was supposed to air on March 16th of 2020. Sarah, your producer, lovely, lovely Sarah.

• 11:55Mike Rowe?

  She's the best.

• 11:56Speaker 02

  Calls me and says, oh, we changed it. We changed it. We're going to air your episode on September 9th.

• 12:03Mike Rowe?

  September?

• 12:04Speaker 02

  March, March, March 9th of 2020.

• 12:06Mike Rowe?

  So the 6th to the 9th?

• 12:07Speaker 02

  The 16th to the 9th. We're moving it up one week. We've moving your episode up.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  And not much else happened in the year 2020.

• 12:14Mike Rowe?

  March 9th. So that was the week of the lockdowns?

• 12:17Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 12:18Speaker 02

  Right before.

• 12:19Mike Rowe?

  Right. So California lockdown on Friday, the 13th.

• 12:24Speaker 02

  So we dropped March 9th. 2 million people watched it.

• 12:29Speaker 02

  March 13th, the world shuts down.

• 12:31Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 12:33Speaker 02

  March 16th, when we were supposed to air, 10,000 people watched that episode. Because nobody was watching anything.

• 12:39Mike Rowe?

  Nobody was watching anything, right.

• 12:41Speaker 02

  So now, everyone's locked down in their house. And you know what they're doing, Mike? They're watching Returning the Favor. And you know what they hear you say? "You need a Rhonda." And you know what they decided to do? Call Rhonda. Because when you went to our website, my cell number was there. My cell.

• 12:57Mike Rowe?

  Oh, wow. No.

• 12:59Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 12:59Mike Rowe?

  Oh, God, I doxed you.

• 13:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, everybody called Rhonda. Because Mike Rowe, the famous guy, who knew?

• 13:06Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 13:07Speaker 02

  Everyone knows your famous name.

• 13:08Mike Rowe?

  Supposedly, almost.

• 13:08Speaker 02

  Decides to call Rhonda. And 41 states and four countries reached out in the month of March, wanting an Isaiah 117 house.

• 13:20Mike Rowe?

  Okay. Good for us, that's great.

• 13:22Speaker 02

  What?

• 13:23Mike Rowe?

  I'm being a really bad host. Let's just back up for the uninitiated.

• 13:26Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 13:26Mike Rowe?

  First of all, give me the scripture.

• 13:28Speaker 02

  Isaiah 117 says, "Do good, seek justice, take care of the widow, take care of the orphan."

• 13:35Mike Rowe?

  Got it. I knew that, just wanted to see if you'd actually committed to. You passed the test, Rhonda.

• 13:39Speaker 02

  Yes, thank you.

• 13:40Mike Rowe?

  Okay, so, that's a scripture that calls people to look after the less fortunate. It really kind of goes right to the guts of what you call the, uh, single-minded biblical proposition that informs most of Christianities we understand today.

• 13:57Speaker 02

  And what I always like to say about that scripture, because I really don't believe you should just take a scripture. You should never just pick one out.

• 14:04Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 14:04Speaker 02

  I mean, the snout of a, that was great.

• 14:07Mike Rowe?

  Find gold, raise snout of a pig, it sticks.

• 14:09Speaker 02

  I mean, if you want to pick that one out, but if you look at Isaiah 117, if you look at that whole context, God is speaking to his people. And what he says is, "You think I want what you're currently doing? Like, you think I want these new moon festivals and these sacrifices? No. They're actually making me sick to my stomach. What I want from my people is for you to do good and seek justice and take care of the widow and take care of the orphan." And my husband Corey and I found that verse as we were staring into the face of our very first foster placement, which was a nine-month-old little boy named Isaiah. And when you are looking in the face of a little boy that you just met, who's now completely

• 14:51Speaker 02

  dependent on you and your family for everything, that verse just hits different.

• 14:56Mike Rowe?

  His name was Isaiah?

• 14:58Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 14:59Mike Rowe?

  And did you immediately think of the scripture? Or did this somehow triangulate later?

• 15:05Speaker 02

  Well, we decided to read the Bible because if you have talked your husband into foster care and you haven't had a baby in your house in nine years, and your husband actually had a procedure so that that would never happen again.

• 15:21Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 15:22Speaker 02

  And all of a sudden, there's a nine-month-old, things get tense.

• 15:25Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 15:26Speaker 02

  And things get said like, "You got us into this." So then you say things like, "We should read the Bible together."

• 15:32Mike Rowe?

  That'll fix it.

• 15:35Speaker 02

  We should read the book of Isaiah. Wouldn't that be fitting?

• 15:40Mike Rowe?

  That sounds great. We were gonna watch Saving Private Ryan, but now, now we're gonna go through Isaiah, one verse at a time. You said "talked into." As I recall, it was part manipulation of a truly inspired kind and outright deception, as I recall.

• 16:01Speaker 02

  I mean, potato, potato, you know? Like, men see it one way, women see it another. I felt very strongly that God was calling us to the world of foster care.

• 16:12Mike Rowe?

  Why?

• 16:13Speaker 02

  Because I believe with all my heart that that is where you will find Jesus. Jesus was always for the least of these. He was with the marginalized. He was with the forgotten. He was with the most vulnerable. And if you want to find the most vulnerable in 2024, go to the foster care system. Because children entering the foster care are some of the most vulnerable in society today.

• 16:36Mike Rowe?

  And when did that become self-evident to you? Is it when you met Isaiah? Or was it when you first saw this weird kind of purgatory that kids enter into?

• 16:49Speaker 02

  You know, it was all of it. It was taking classes and learning that... That removal day is actually one of the hardest days they ever go through. You know, I think a lot of us, when we think of a child being removed from their family, we think that's a good thing. I mean, we think, oh, my gosh, what they're living in and what they're seeing and what they're going through, let's get them out of there. Well, yeah, but if that's all you've ever known, and that's your mama, and that's your home, and that's your brother and your sister that you're going to be removed from, and that's your pet, and that's your school that you can't go to anymore, and you don't get to take any of your belongings, that's the most traumatic day you're ever going to walk. I mean, you're taken away from school and said, sorry, you can't go home today, and I don't know when you can see mama again?

• 17:34Speaker 02

  That's a hard day.

• 17:35Mike Rowe?

  Literally plucked out of existence as you understand it.

• 17:38Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 17:39Mike Rowe?

  Okay, and this the average age we're talking here?

• 17:42Speaker 02

  I mean, we've seen people in the Isaiah 117 house, we've seen children from two days old to turning 18 the next day.

• 17:51Mike Rowe?

  Totally different type of trauma, obviously. How old was Isaiah?

• 17:55Speaker 02

  He was nine months old.

• 17:56Mike Rowe?

  Nine months.

• 17:59Mike Rowe?

  And so there's a social worker there, I assume? And the family is there, and sometimes it's, here, take him, enough? Where you been? Or, I've had second thoughts, don't go? Or, how, I mean, I just, I want people to understand the grab bag of potential trauma that that day is.

• 18:21Speaker 02

  So sometimes it's 2:30 in the morning, and there's been a physical altercation, and the police have been called out, and they're finding drugs, and mom and dad are screaming and yelling, and they're having to gather up children of all ages and put them in the back of a cop car until the department can get there.

• 18:37Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 18:38Speaker 02

  Sometimes it's been a steady reporting, and reporting, and reporting, and the child is getting ready to get on the bus, and they're greeted by their principal and a caseworker and said, I'm sorry, you cannot get on the bus today. You can't go home, and I don't know when you're going to get to see mama. Sometimes it's coming in after school, we have a meeting with the social worker, and they find something right then and there, and they say, "We have to remove immediately." Sometimes, parents bring their children to the Department of Children's Services and said, "I have done all I can do, and I don't know what to do anymore." Sometimes, you have one parent and they die, and there is no family, and that child has just lost their only parent, and they now come into state's custody.

• 19:21Speaker 02

  I mean, there's all kinds of reasons that children come into state's custody.

• 19:26Mike Rowe?

  And what were the circumstances surrounding Isaiah?

• 19:29Speaker 02

  A long history of poverty, drug addiction, domestic violence. Tried and tried and tried to get help and to make things better.

• 19:41Mike Rowe?

  And what happens to these kids in between the removal and the ultimate placement?

• 19:50Speaker 02

  So, that's what we found. That's what kind of blew my mind. Is, you know, first you find out that they're walking this traumatic day, and then you find out that the plan is for that child to go to a state office and just sit and wait.

• 20:07Mike Rowe?

  Describe the office, because you took me to one. I want people to see it in their mind's eye.

• 20:12Speaker 02

  Think DMV. Think any state office you've had to visit. Think tile floor. Think fluorescent lighting.

• 20:19Mike Rowe?

  Gray.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  Gray.

• 20:20Mike Rowe?

  Beige.

• 20:21Speaker 02

  Beige. State-issued furniture, probably outdated.

• 20:25Mike Rowe?

  Kind of a Soviet feel.

• 20:27Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. And cubicles everywhere, conference rooms, vending machines, public restrooms, and they're being asked to sit and wait till placement is found. You've got to also picture the state the child is in. So... They're beyond sad. They're traumatized. They're scared because they don't know where they're going. They may feel a lot of guilt, especially if they've said something they believe that has brought them into this situation, or if they've gotten their parents in trouble.

• 21:01Mike Rowe?

  Which is, by the way, what they're kind of wired to do. We all are, right? Like, the brain looks for cause and effect. And if your universe is as small as that house that you're about to be removed from, the immediate thing is just to say, "I caused whatever's happening. I'm the proximate cause of it." Because at that age, they're still the center of their own solar system.

• 21:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. What did I do wrong?

• 21:26Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 21:26Speaker 02

  I'm in trouble, you know? And so guilt, shame, they're feeling all these emotions. Most likely, they have nothing with them. Most likely, they're hungry, they're tired. Most of them are in desperate need of a bath or a shower, and they're sitting in a state office, which is not equipped to meet any of those needs. And it's not the caseworker's fault. I mean, once again, picture the DMV. Is the DMV equipped to give a four-year-old a bath, a teenager a shower, fix a proper meal, get them clothing?

• 22:03Mike Rowe?

  Remove the lice.

• 22:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:05Mike Rowe?

  Pick the lice.

• 22:06Speaker 02

  No. But that's where they're sitting. And sometimes it's four hours, sometimes it's eight hours, sometimes it's 12 hours. Post 2020, three days, a week. In some states, they're moving them to hotels. Some states, they're turning entire offices into, the boys stay in this office, they're living there, the girls stay in this office, they're living there. I mean, it is across this country. There are children with absolutely nowhere to go.

• 22:38Mike Rowe?

  Bishop Martin sat where you're sitting about six weeks ago, and for much the same reason. What I do remember vividly about meeting you was really a day or two before I met you, when I said to the producers and to Facebook, I said, you know, I just don't know about this story. Couple of things make me nervous. She's a religious woman. And that's not either a good or a bad thing for me. It's just that, we can get into this later if you're interested. The church doesn't get a free pass. You know, the church is a huge part of solving this problem. But there's also something else, and I've been burned over the years, frankly,

• 23:22Mike Rowe?

  by just marching in lockstep with certain doctrinaires and feeling like, you know, something, that's, yeah, whatever. And it felt, how to say it? I guess, like a lot of people, I didn't appreciate the purgatory you just described. You know, I knew the foster care system wasn't perfect. And I knew there was a terrible correlation between recidivism in crime. Follow it back, so many foster kids, right? So I knew there was a bad path. I didn't know to what extent, and I didn't know you.

• 24:02Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, but I talked to Sarah, who you mentioned. She's like, Mike, look, trust me, I've talked to this woman. It's not platitudes and it's not bromides. She has her faith, but I don't think she gives a damn about much other than those less fortunate than her.

• 24:21Speaker 02

  Amen, Sarah.

• 24:23Mike Rowe?

  Well, you know, look, I mean, you know, Sarah is just the most, I mean, you guys probably could sit down and have like an optimistic smile off or something, to see who-

• 24:32Speaker 02

  I did love her.

• 24:33Mike Rowe?

  To see who could slide up the banister faster, à la Mary Poppins. But it was her recommendation, and then I read a little bit about it myself. And I'm like, good God, this is a sprawling problem. And then the question was simply, what can one woman do? That's an interesting question to me because macro problems often have micro solutions. And that's why returning the favor became what it was. And I knew what had happened at that point to our friend Luke Mickelson. I saw what that bunk bed project turned into. And in the back of my mind, I was like, well, who knows? Who knows? Maybe. Anyway, I'm just saying all that because I didn't know. I really didn't know until you showed me.

• 25:16Mike Rowe?

  And it was a privilege to show 2 million other people what they didn't know. That's why your phone blew up. So what exactly did we do for you again? We built something? What did we give you? I forget.

• 25:34Mike Rowe?

  The service I'm about to recommend to you is absolutely free. And it can easily save the average user over $1,000 a year. It's called Chapter. And it's the best way to make sure the Medicare plan you're on is the one you should be on. Because every year Medicare plans change, and so do you. And just because your plan might have been the best choice when you were 65, doesn't mean it's the best choice today. At Chapter, independent advisors compare Medicare plans nationwide. They look at your doctors, your prescriptions, and your budget to help you find coverage that fits your needs. And they're not paid more to recommend one plan over another. You don't need to sort through all the options yourself. You can talk to somebody who understands them.

• 26:16Mike Rowe?

  Ask your questions and get help comparing the costs and benefits. So if your current plan is still the right fit, they'll tell you. If there's a better option, they'll tell you that too, and they'll help you switch. Again, the service is free, and a review can take less than 20 minutes. This is the time of year to make sure you're squared away for 2027. So if you haven't checked your Medicare coverage lately, give Chapter a call. It's a simple way to make sure your plan still works for you. And with potential savings of $1,100 a year, it's worth a free review. 804-Chapter. Call them today. 804-C-H-A-P-T-E-R.

• 26:56Speaker 02

  Well, we had just purchased a home to make our home office because we had just recently hired three other people. In 2018, there was one employee and one house and 40 trained volunteers.

• 27:10Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 27:11Speaker 02

  By the time you got to us, there were four employees and we had just built, purchased this home, but we had nothing in it. We had like tables from Sam's and somebody's grandmother's chairs, folding chairs from her garage, and we had nothing. So you gave us money to finish that. Like, we paved our driveway, we got a sign, we got computers, chairs. Anyone that visits, I say, "Jesus and micro did everything right here." They seem to know who you are, too. Like, everyone I talked to knows who you are. So if you were worried, just me, didn't know. But, um, and then you gave us lots of things to provide for the children, which was amazing.

• 27:48Mike Rowe?

  Well, look, there are no small things, right? Like, the business of getting the kids bathed, the business of literally delousing them by hand. The first time you realized that was the level of, what's the word, squalor? That's the level of depredation? I mean, it's...

• 28:08Speaker 02

  Well, you know, people get so mad at the state. Like, you know, you pick up a newspaper article, everybody's mad at the state. They're so mad at the state. Picture this: The state is standing in their break room beside their coffee maker, picking lice out of a child's head. That's what the state is doing. That's what the caseworkers are doing. And then if you want to move higher up, if you want to be mad at the state, this is what I always say, "I'm not mad at the state. This was never the state's calling. This was never the state's calling. If you want to talk church with me, I'll talk church."

• 28:44Mike Rowe?

  Let's...

• 28:45Speaker 02

  This was the church's calling, and the church handed it to the state. And now the church wants to get mad at the state. I'm not mad at the state.

• 28:57Speaker 02

  Because if the church will stand up and do what they were called to do from Genesis to Revelation, we won't have to worry about the state.

• 29:05Mike Rowe?

  So, one of the first people I remember meeting that day was, I guess it was a caseworker. It was somebody from the state. And I remember you were protective of them. In fact, didn't you tell your people, you know, there's a documentary crew coming? Don't bad mouth the state.

• 29:24Speaker 02

  Do you remember my pep talk? Did I tell you in my pep talk? Because I thought it was a small documentary crew.

• 29:28Mike Rowe?

  Well, in full disclosure, I did watch the episode. I did, yes.

• 29:33Speaker 02

  And I said, okay, because I don't do details. So I said, guys, I don't know, there's some small documentary crew coming. There are two rules. Number one, do not say one negative thing about the state. Not one. And number two, don't take your shirt off because I don't know what kind of company this is, but we're not making that kind of video. That was my, those were only rules.

• 29:51Mike Rowe?

  It's Tennessee. What? Cameras are coming?

• 29:54Speaker 02

  Then some guy comes in and pulled my shirt out and dropped the microphone and said, that's what I'm talking about, that's what I'm talking about.

• 30:02Speaker 02

  See?

• 30:02Mike Rowe?

  Which one was that, Taylor? Who's doing audio?

• 30:04Speaker 02

  Probably him. Probably Taylor. Just kidding.

• 30:07Mike Rowe?

  Taylor. It's not really his department, but, you know?

• 30:10Speaker 02

  Yep, that's what happens.

• 30:11Mike Rowe?

  When you're in Tennessee, yeah.

• 30:14Speaker 02

  No, your team was amazing. And multiple of those guys who don't speak a word that whole day, I guess because they're holding the microphone, came up afterwards crying, like crying and hugging and just pouring their hearts out about what that episode meant to them.

• 30:31Mike Rowe?

  Well, that's nice to hear, you know?

• 30:34Speaker 02

  They were amazing.

• 30:35Mike Rowe?

  Well, it is because, you know, we had our own drama with returning the favor. I've never talked to you about this, but all good things are circuitous in a way. Like Isaiah House didn't just pop into existence fully formed, right? It's fits and starts and I didn't want to do a feel-good show. I didn't want to do Extreme Home Makeover. Hudson Media did and Facebook did and they pitched us real hard. You just talked to Mary and, you know, she was, they came to her first and it was no, then it was just no, no, thank you. And then it was like, no, seriously, we're just not going to do it. No. And they came down and they talked and we had this big conversation about how can you

• 31:16Mike Rowe?

  make a difference in this industry without just choking on the own, your own saccharine sweetness and the earnestness of it all? It's not that I'm not a fan of those things, I just like, how can we tell the story in a way that doesn't feel manipulative? These were all big conversations and I wasn't convinced it could be done until we decided to basically have a behind the scenes camera, which was Taylor, who just never stopped shooting. So getting all those little moments cut into the finished product, that was the way we were able to come together and say, okay, I think there is a way to tell these stories. It's not going to be traditional and it's not going to make everybody super comfortable.

• 31:59Mike Rowe?

  But the funny thing is, that I think you'll appreciate, is those guys, you know, Sarah not so much, but Jacob and Lucian and Brent and certainly Michael Rourke, you know, who ran the company, those guys were all making their living, you know, Real Housewives of like San Bernardino or something, I mean, they wanted to work on something that made them proud. And you really made them, you made Michael Rourke cry and I didn't think he had tear ducts. This is a hardened, you know, Hollywood producer who pulled me aside, it actually wasn't after your episode, but it was that season and he just said to me, Mike, you know, my family,

• 32:43Mike Rowe?

  I think it was around Thanksgiving, he was like, my family told me this is the first thing I've ever done that made them proud. And so, and so anyway, I mean, there was a smallness around what we were doing that was juxtaposed to a bigness. And I thought the same thing about you. I thought there's something so small about wanting to smooth over the transition that these kids are more or less destined to experience. Improve that, that's modest, but of course, it's adjacent to some rather...

• 33:24Mike Rowe?

  Big things too. And the fact that this thing got weirdly big just tickles me to no end.

• 33:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, as of today, we have 27 open homes, 57 total locations in 12 states, 160 employees, over 7,000 volunteers. We've served over 6,000 children and we have 60 people waiting in a queue wanting to start an Isaiah 117 house. And a new video comes in every week and has so since March of 2020.

• 34:00Speaker 02

  That's the power of returning the favor. So, thank you for finally saying yes. Thank you for finally saying yes to the feel-good show. Yeah.

• 34:11Mike Rowe?

  Well, look, I don't have a crystal ball, but I'm so sick of hearing. We did 100 episodes. It was canceled literally after the 100th episode. I mean, do you know how weird that is? I mean, just in, I'm not complaining at all. Zuckerberg told me to my face three years earlier. He said, "I'm going to spend a billion dollars to find out if I even want to be in this space." It's not really what we do, you know? It was so weird, but people should understand it was.

• 34:43Mike Rowe?

  We made a deal for five episodes because we were sure we'd never get to 10 and didn't really even want to. Just drips and drabs, a little bit here, a little bit there. To wind up with 100 episodes, a dedicated Facebook page with over a million people in a community who are basically programming the show, just coming to me every day with more and more ideas. That's crazy. We want an Emmy, for God's sakes. To hear stories like yours, I mean utterly transformational. I mean, lives have literally been saved as a result of us getting to a yes and you not knowing who I am, which is still heartbreaking, but nevertheless welcoming me into your house to tell your story. I mean, and so I'm literally on a call later today with Sarah.

• 35:28Mike Rowe?

  We're trying to figure out a way to get this rebooted without Facebook.

• 35:33Speaker 02

  You have to do it.

• 35:35Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, I guess maybe so.

• 35:36Speaker 02

  You have to. I mean, yes, the phone started ringing, people started calling. I would say for the next two years, every home that we opened was a direct link to Returning the Favor. But now, every one of those homes, they are now opening homes because the neighboring county is like, oh, we want that. So now Returning the Favor is still opening homes. So I mean, like, we'll never know. We'll never know. I still have to give Jesus and Returning the Favor and my group. Yeah, we can't just give...

• 36:05Speaker 01

  Now you're one of three. No, one of two. It's just you and Jesus a minute ago.

• 36:09Mike Rowe?

  I believe that's the Trinity.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  Hmm, I think you might be wrong about that.

• 36:13Speaker 02

  I think you're gonna get struck by lightning and I'm gonna speak back, but, I mean, we'll never know. And I've told everybody that I meet, the fact that you would take your platform and use it for that good, it wasn't just Isaiah 117 else. It was everyone that was on the show, you know, all the good that was just exponentially multiplied. Like, you have to do it, whatever it is. I don't know the project.

• 36:34Mike Rowe?

  Well...

• 36:35Speaker 02

  And Sarah will make it good. I mean, she'll, she'll help you along.

• 36:37Mike Rowe?

  You know, she's special, for sure, and she's gone on to do some really interesting things. We talked the other day, and as much crap as I give Rourke and, you know, the old crew, like redemption really is the thing, and everybody's looking for it. And I don't mean it necessarily or exclusively in a biblical context. Whatever your line of work is, there are days when you feel like you made a difference, and there are days when you feel like you made little rocks out of big rocks. And you get too many of those days together, and then that's called drudgery. And you get too many of the other days together and you just start to... Well, you can't function because you're overwhelmed by the stakes of the thing.

• 37:22Mike Rowe?

  So the question in that is, where are you with this? Because I worry. We joked earlier about, I gave you a drink of water from a fire hose. You know, not careful, take your head off. And we saw that happen with the show too. There were some instances where it was too much. Not the surprise, not the reveal, not the money, but the attention. It's a heck of a thing when you point your cameras at a thing. And it was what you said right out of the ga- I didn't know your phone number was on the website. I didn't know your personal cellphone was gonna blow up.

• 37:56Speaker 02

  I have changed my phone number.

• 37:57Mike Rowe?

  I bet you have.

• 37:57Speaker 02

  And I begged the carrier not to give that number to anyone else. I was like, please, you just have to get rid of this number. Do not give this number to anybody else, please. No, I mean, you're right. I mean, I don't know if this is exactly what you're getting at, but I will tell you what happened to me. I was hospitalized four times in 2020. And it was just sheer. I became so overwhelmed with how could I possibly say no to all these people that were calling? Because there's a child at the end of that. If I say no, there is a child at the end of that no. There is a child in that community in an office. Like, they're not wrong. They do need this, you know? And so I just get pushing and pushing and pushing and... Because we needed a house there.

• 38:42Speaker 02

  They were right, they needed a house. And what I've had to learn post 2020, and what I'm still learning, but I've gotten much better at, is God's not asking me to save the world. I mean, that's, that's a God complex. No, no, no. I'm just supposed to do what I've been called to do, one day at a time, one foot at a time, one step at a time.

• 39:05Mike Rowe?

  Well, he's asking you to live in it.

• 39:08Speaker 02

  I'm just called to do what I can do today. I hope that I'm inspiring others to just do what they're called to do today. But that's all I can do. And so that's where I am now. Like, let's all just do the good that we can do today. And then let's go to sleep. And then let's get up. And let's do the good we can do today. And then let's go to sleep, because I didn't sleep in 2020. Let's go to sleep and let's do it again.

• 39:32Mike Rowe?

  I nearly killed you.

• 39:33Speaker 02

  You, you, I told him. He said, can you think you can come out? I was like, whoo, I don't know, my pits are sweating. Um, hold on, I'm having a little PTSD. Last time I met that man, he about killed me and my life changed forever. I don't know if I want to see him again. But yeah, I mean, I think there's...

• 39:49Mike Rowe?

  Corey, I'm sorry too, man.

• 39:52Speaker 02

  But I do think, yeah, I just, no, I think for me, it's just, we just all have to do our part. I'm not supposed to do it all. We're all supposed to do our part.

• 40:07Mike Rowe?

  True, but what you said before, it's witnessing, and again, not just in the biblical context. I know what it means to witness, but I also know-

• 40:17Speaker 02

  Are you afraid that I only think in the biblical context?

• 40:20Mike Rowe?

  I am-

• 40:21Speaker 02

  I am capable of thinking.

• 40:24Mike Rowe?

  All right. No, I'm not afraid of it, but I think sometimes people are. I am afraid of it. I was afraid of this story. In fact, full disclosure, I looked askance at all faith-based stories initially. And it has nothing to do with my own lack of or preponderance of faith. You know, I think it's a fairly personal thing that I'm still happy to talk about. But on TV, it scares me because TV makes everything bigger. It makes everything more exaggerated, and I don't think faith ought to be exaggerated.

• 41:05Mike Rowe?

  And when I see public displays of it outside of the church sometimes, I file it under earnestness, and Travis McGee says, "Be wary of all earnestness." True, he's a fictitious character, but I did base my entire business model on that. And so, right, back to that thing. It's like, it's a very nuanced thing for me. It happened on Dirty Jobs, too, where I wanted to pay an honest tribute to these people who do this work. But I didn't want to wrap them in a flag, and I didn't want to turn them into heroes. And I didn't want cello music playing in the background. And I didn't want to needlessly manipulate the viewer into feeling a certain way.

• 41:48Mike Rowe?

  So that's all my baggage that I'm bringing to this thing. But with regard to witnessing, the thing that changed my mind was, you can't penalize people for being faithless or faithful.

• 42:02Mike Rowe?

  If you want to point your camera at it, then just point and let the chips fall. Take care of the edit as best you can and try to get your thumb off the scale. But what I learned was, in the course of doing that show, is that not only were the faith-based initiatives the most compelling, we could have come at it exclusively for that. And I'm way more open to that now, whatever the faith is. I've heard you, I think you said to me on that day, you said, "My God is a big God." I don't remember how I responded, but I thought, that's a fairly egalitarian way to put it.

• 42:46Mike Rowe?

  Like, in one simple sentence, you were acknowledging the fact that other people might have a whole separate set of beliefs. But yours is personal, and you know the parameters of it? Here's a crazy idea. What if there was an academy out there that paid students to learn, instead of the other way around? Specifically, men and women who want to work in the skilled trades. And what if this academy not only paid for your training, but also covered all the expenses associated with your training, like travel and food and lodging? And finally, what if this academy guaranteed you a job at the end of the training period?

• 43:29Mike Rowe?

  Well, that's exactly what's happening at America's Workforce Academy by Meta. This is a five-week, highly immersive, pre-apprenticeship program that gets you all the necessary certifications you'll need to start a career in the skilled trades immediately. I'm talking about AI-proof, six-figure jobs, helping to build out the new infrastructure that our economy is depending on. Electricians, plumbers, HVAC techs, welders, fiber optic technicians, these jobs, they are all in demand like never before. And again, every graduate of America's Workforce Academy is guaranteed a job on a Meta website.

• 44:09Mike Rowe?

  I first announced this program a few months ago, and I have been watching the response ever since. It's extraordinary. This is a nationwide, unprecedented fast track to a long-term career in a skilled trade. If you, or your spouse, or your kid, or your grandkid are looking for a straight path into a career with no cost at all, check out the opportunities for yourself at meta.com/america'sworkforceacademy. That's meta.com/america'sworkforceacademy.

• 44:42Speaker 02

  I'm fully aware that my faith is mine. I don't believe I can talk about Isaiah 117 house without talking about my faith, because it is all in there together for me. I felt compelled to go to foster care because of my faith. I felt compelled to do this work because of my faith. So it's almost impossible for me to talk about one without the other. But for me, anyone listening, I think we all should be compelled just to love our neighbor. You know, I mean, I think we all should be compelled to help the least of these. I think we all should be compelled to do good work. I mean, you know, it's not about my God, or the God they protest, or it's...

• 45:27Mike Rowe?

  Compelled or convicted?

• 45:29Speaker 02

  Ooh, convicted.

• 45:32Mike Rowe?

  Right?

• 45:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. You're much better with vocabulary than me.

• 45:35Mike Rowe?

  Well, I mean...

• 45:36Speaker 02

  You've used two words today that I had no idea what you're saying, but I didn't want to stop you.

• 45:40Mike Rowe?

  Thanks for that. Do you remember what they were?

• 45:41Speaker 02

  There was one that started with an S. I'm not sure about that one.

• 45:44Mike Rowe?

  Sofa?

• 45:45Speaker 02

  No.

• 45:46Mike Rowe?

  Silly?

• 45:47Speaker 02

  No.

• 45:48Mike Rowe?

  Sanctimonious?

• 45:49Speaker 02

  No.

• 45:50Mike Rowe?

  Supercilious?

• 45:52Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 45:53Mike Rowe?

  Sasquatch?

• 45:55Speaker 02

  Bigfoot. No. Password. No. But, I mean, yes, convicted. And I do feel like, oh, no, I don't know if I should go there, but...

• 46:05Mike Rowe?

  All right, well, think about it.

• 46:06Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 46:07Mike Rowe?

  And let me clarify what I mean. Compelled... To me is a statist word. The state can compel me to do a thing through various legislative

• 46:18Speaker 02

  Oh, I see, I see.

• 46:18Mike Rowe?

  And so forth, all right. But a conviction is an internal thing that you feel duty bound or simply called to do. It's a calling. A conviction is a calling.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  Unless it's the other kind of state conviction where they put you away.

• 46:34Mike Rowe?

  Where you've been convicted.

• 46:35Speaker 01

  Not good.

• 46:36Mike Rowe?

  That's right. Yeah. Good point.

• 46:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's excellent point. Conviction that doesn't include jail time. That's the one I'm talking about.

• 46:43Mike Rowe?

  There you go. That kind of conviction.

• 46:45Speaker 02

  No, conviction for sure. Yes.

• 46:47Mike Rowe?

  Okay.

• 46:48Speaker 02

  I feel, because I'll go back to one thing. I feel like so many people are wanting the state to fix things. And if we just, the state will fix it. No, we, we should be convicted to do the right thing and to get out there and fix things. And that's why, and at the end of the episode, you was like, everybody needs a Rhonda, which if we could redo that.

• 47:06Mike Rowe?

  That one.

• 47:06Speaker 02

  That one line. You do not need a Rhonda. Where's the camera? You do not need a Rhonda. Listen to me. No one needs a Rhonda, except for Corey Paulson. No one needs her. But, you know, we need to all feel convicted. Yeah, especially, yeah, especially right now.

• 47:24Mike Rowe?

  But part of your job as the leader of this thing, at least for a time anyway, was to share that conviction. You had to be persuasive. You had to persuade your husband, who's sitting right there checking his Facebook status, no doubt, or maybe calling an early Uber.

• 47:40Speaker 02

  I'm very, very persuasive.

• 47:43Mike Rowe?

  How'd you get him to come around? And I know you're probably sick of telling this story, but it's important. I think there are probably a lot of people listening who are, at least I hope, who will be convicted or possibly compelled to try and do something good, kind, decent, or better as a result of all this. But they have to understand too, that those actions can have consequences, both unintended and intended, and that compulsion can impact those closest to them and probably will. Like, that's the price that nobody ever talks about. I tried to talk about it a lot on Returning the Favor because people think about charities and they think about foundations like they're hobbies, but they're not.

• 48:27Mike Rowe?

  They're businesses with even more, in many cases, layers and challenges. And some of those can get pretty personal. Including vasectomies.

• 48:41Speaker 02

  That was pre-OT117.

• 48:43Mike Rowe?

  Was it?

• 48:43Speaker 02

  It was. But, um, no, Corey has sacrificed a lot. Yes, my family has sacrificed a lot. That is true. I did convince, coerce, manipulate Corey into going to classes to learn about foster care. That is true. He thought he was going on a date. We ended up.

• 49:04Mike Rowe?

  Right?

• 49:05Speaker 02

  In foster care classes.

• 49:07Mike Rowe?

  Yeah. Boy, that sounds great.

• 49:08Speaker 02

  That date did not end like most dates should. I will say that. I will say that. But we went to that first week. He didn't say he wouldn't go back. So he did go to week two. He did go to week three. When we left week three.

• 49:24Mike Rowe?

  Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait. This is a date, but you're not dating. You're married at this point.

• 49:28Speaker 02

  Right, right, right. I asked him to go on a date.

• 49:30Mike Rowe?

  Yes.

• 49:30Speaker 02

  He got his mom to watch the kids.

• 49:32Mike Rowe?

  Date night.

• 49:33Speaker 02

  Date night. We went out to eat and then I said, hey, why don't we drive out to this church? And he was like, on our date. I was like, yeah.

• 49:40Mike Rowe?

  It's gonna be great. It's gonna be hot.

• 49:42Speaker 02

  Hot date to the church. And we pulled in, there was tons of cars in the parking lot. And he was like, lots of people dating at the Crossroads Christian Church. And I was like, yeah.

• 49:53Mike Rowe?

  This place goes off.

• 49:54Speaker 02

  Everybody's here. And so we go in, we sit down, this lady stands up. Welcome to your eight week study of foster care. I mean, he was so not happy. I tell everybody, there was this notepad and we're supposed to take notes about the children. And he was writing hateful notes and shoving them over. I was like, Corey, get kicked out. And he's like, oh, I hope so. I mean, he was so mad at me. Um, but in between, like, so we drove home that night and we did not speak. We did not speak all night long. We rolled opposite directions, didn't touch, didn't speak. And then the next morning we got up and we didn't discuss it. We just acted normal. And then week two, we just met in the driveway and we drove out without speaking and we drove home without speaking. And then week three, we met in the driveway and we drove out without speaking. And when we were coming home week three, he said, I don't want to do this.

• 50:39Speaker 02

  And I said, hey, fair enough. I mean, you've been a good sport. I tricked you into it. We made it three weeks. Fair enough. And he said, oh, don't fair enough. Me, Rhonda. And I said, what? And he said, you and the Lord have wrecked me. I am a wrecked man. He was like, you've known me for 20 years and I like simple, safe and predictable. And I don't know if you've noticed, but not one thing we have learned about the foster care system sounds simple, safe and predictable. And I do not want to do this. But now I know. Like now I know there are kids in our community with nowhere to go.

• 51:20Mike Rowe?

  Now you know. See, that's, that's what I'm, that's the witnessing I was talking about. You can't just see it, which is why that episode was as much about him as it was you. Sorry, we don't have another mic, Corey. I'd, I'd hook you up. All right. He's good. But seriously, wow. It's like that scene in It's a Wonderful Life. You remember when you-

• 51:42Speaker 02

  It's my favorite Christmas movie.

• 51:44Mike Rowe?

  It's a great movie.

• 51:46Speaker 02

  It's my favorite.

• 51:46Mike Rowe?

  But guess what? It's not a Christmas movie.

• 51:49Speaker 02

  Oh, don't do that to me. Every Christmas Eve.

• 51:52Mike Rowe?

  I know. It takes place at Christmas.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  It's like Die Hard.

• 51:55Mike Rowe?

  It's like Die Hard. Not a Christmas movie.

• 51:58Speaker 02

  Well, wait. I mean, I'm just kidding.

• 52:00Mike Rowe?

  It's kind of a horror movie, really. If you, I mean, what is more horrifying than to wake up one day and not have anyone you love know you? I mean-

• 52:11Speaker 02

  Okay, we need to stop this. Okay, that is my favorite movie.

• 52:14Mike Rowe?

  I thought, well, in, in the same way that you wrecked your husband's life, let me wreck your favorite movie. Okay?

• 52:21Speaker 02

  Corey, have I wrecked your life?

• 52:22Speaker 03

  I'm the luckiest man in the world.

• 52:23Speaker 02

  There you go. There you go.

• 52:25Mike Rowe?

  I'm the luckiest man in the world.

• 52:28Speaker 02

  On cue, on cue.

• 52:29Mike Rowe?

  I have been blessed beyond my means.

• 52:33Mike Rowe?

  Life is good. No, there's a scene where Donna Reed is on the phone with Sam Wainwright, who's got all the money. Jimmy Stewart's there and he loves her, but he doesn't want to love her. And he's jealous, but he doesn't want to be jealous. And he's got plans to travel the world. He's got all these plans in his mind and he's so sure of it. But he saw something. He can't deny how he's feeling when he sees this woman talking on the phone with this guy. And her mother's on the extension upstairs, listening, remembering. Jimmy's there like, I'm not gonna do it.

• 53:14Mike Rowe?

  I don't, I hate, and he's just absolutely twisted up with this incredible cognitive dissonance. And realizing that, yeah, man, it really doesn't matter what I want anymore.

• 53:29Speaker 02

  Oh, that's how he's lived 27 years. God love him. That's what it's like being married to me.

• 53:36Mike Rowe?

  Everybody needs a Rhonda.

• 53:38Speaker 02

  I said, do not say that.

• 53:41Mike Rowe?

  I just think that that, I mean, that moment in that movie is so relatable to so many people. Because it's when you crumble. It's when you know, you can't quite say, okay, done. Since you put it that way, let's do it. It's prior to that, but it's also after you kind of know the jig is up. And so what happened in week four?

• 54:09Speaker 02

  Well, now we're united. So now we're in it. And I mean, it's just so eye opening. I tell people all the time, because we have people come up and say, I don't know. I've always thought maybe, but my husband's not on board. Or I've always thought maybe, but we're, I'm like, just go take the classes. You're not signing up for anything. Just go take the classes. They're free. Just go take them because it is so eye opening just to learn. And I do believe that for a lot of people, that if they knew, you just gotta know what's going on in your community. I think a lot of people would have a hard time turning a blind eye. And so that's what it was like for us to sit there, week four, week five, weeks, just to learn what the children are going through. And that literally they're in class with my children. They're on the soccer team. But this, it's not these kids.

• 54:54Speaker 02

  It's not those kids over there. No, no, they're going to school. Uh huh. Yeah, they're on the soccer team. They're. And it was just so heartbreaking, so heartbreaking.

• 55:07Mike Rowe?

  So what happens after the course?

• 55:10Speaker 02

  So after the course, I would like to say that we were so moved and so convicted that we just immediately said yes, and, but it's not true. I mean, we said no for almost a year.

• 55:27Mike Rowe?

  No to?

• 55:28Speaker 02

  Calls.

• 55:29Mike Rowe?

  No, no to calls?

• 55:31Speaker 02

  I mean, it's a hard yes.

• 55:33Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 55:34Speaker 02

  It's a hard yes. I mean, when they call you at 2:00 a.m. and say, we have a sibling group of three and they have zero possessions and they all have lice, can we bring them to your home right now? It's a hard yes. I mean, we didn't even own a car big enough to haul, to go from a family of four to a family of seven overnight, that's a hard yes. I tell people all the time, the hardest thing God asked me to do through this whole process was to get a minivan. But I did it, I did it. And so, we literally, we, I did it, I did it. And it's true, once you do it, you can't go back. They're like, it's amazing.

• 56:16Speaker 02

  But anyway, we lived in this 100-year-old farmhouse that we had redone. It only had three bedrooms. So we sold it and bought a home with more bedrooms. We sold my car and bought a minivan and we spent a year just kind of getting ourselves ready until we finally got the call for a nine-month-old little boy and we said yes.

• 56:40Mike Rowe?

  And that was Isaiah?

• 56:41Speaker 02

  That was Isaiah.

• 56:42Mike Rowe?

  Why him?

• 56:44Speaker 02

  Well, unlike the picture that has been painted of me, Corey had one request. He was like, one child. Like, we're gonna say yes to one child. Not a sibling group of five, not like, one, we'll start with one child. And I will say, for almost a year, it was all sibling groups. And so, he was the first call we received for one child.

• 57:11Mike Rowe?

  Then what happened?

• 57:14Speaker 02

  Then, we lived it. Now, it's not just what we learned in a class. Like, we are picking up from the back door of the child welfare office. Now, we're being handed a roach-infested diaper bag, and that's the only thing the kid owns. Now, we're being handed a child that was just bathed in a drug testing sink. Now, I am looking into the face of a child and so heartbroken because I'm like, "This nine-month-old? The only thing he owns in the world is a roach-infested diaper bag? And he was just bathed in a drug testing sink? And he was just handed to me, who he does not know? That's the plan? Like, that is the plan? And I'm like, "Yeah, it actually is." I didn't even have a car seat. And so, they were like, "Oh, hold on, we've got one."

• 57:57Speaker 02

  And I'm like, "It's the dirtiest, filthiest, you know..." They hand me, they said, "Bring it back tomorrow, we need it back." So, I put this car seat in. We're driving home, and I realize, we have nothing for a nine-month-old. We have a nine-year-old son and a 12-year-old daughter at the time. We have not a thing for a baby. So, I call a friend of mine, and I'm like, "We just said yes to a baby." I don't know. And so, she starts calling, and all our friends, our small group, our community starts showing up. They're bringing high chairs, they're putting up a crib in our guest room, they're bringing baby monitors. Somebody came by with $500, said, "Buy him what he needs." I mean, like, for the next three days, our community just showed up. And that was eye-opening, too.

• 58:36Mike Rowe?

  Now, was this church, or was this community, or both?

• 58:38Speaker 02

  Both, both. Soccer moms, people from church. We had a small group that wasn't affiliated with our church. It was just a group that got together, and we were living life together, you know? So, it was everybody. But I remember thinking, "If Isaiah's mom had had this community, I wouldn't have Isaiah." And that was just a gut punch. I wouldn't have him if she'd had this kind of support system.

• 59:04Mike Rowe?

  Right.

• 59:05Speaker 02

  But also, how do foster parents say yes if they don't have this? Because Cory and I were doing fine financially, I mean, we're not, but we're doing fine. We couldn't afford to go buy everything a baby needed at a moment's notice. So like, how did foster parents say yes? And like, you get a clothing stipend, a hundred and fifty dollars, that I received eight weeks later when he was no longer naked. I mean, how do you say yes? And so that was another eye-opening moment. Like, how do foster parents say yes? Well, no wonder nobody's saying yes. But we need them to say yes. And so it was all these pieces of the puzzle coming together. Like, removal day, that's the plan? This is how we pick them up? This is all the support foster parents are getting? But we need them to say yes?

• 59:49Speaker 02

  And we've got caseworkers picking lice out? And they're spending the night in offices with children? I mean, it was just like... And I had this friend Julie, and we would talk. She had gone through the classes, we met in classes. And she had said yes to a baby. And we would talk every week. And every time we got off the phone, we would say, "Our husbands are not gonna let us bring them all home. But we gotta do something, because this cannot be the plan." That's what we would say every week. "This cannot be the plan." And that was from 2015 to 2017. Like, this can't honestly be the plan.

• 1:00:25Mike Rowe?

  Getting back to me for a second?

• 1:00:26Speaker 02

  Oh, please, yes.

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  It'd been a while.

• 1:00:29Speaker 02

  It'd been a while, yes. I'll get my drink of water, you go.

• 1:00:34Mike Rowe?

  I think about returning the favor like a pyramid, in a way. And I used to say a thing on the show. Highlighting people was slightly better than you and me. And I meant it. Because I think at the top of the pyramid, we have people who are nearly utterly selfless. They're just people who, well, with respect, would have taken the three, would have taken the four. It wouldn't have mattered. Some of the people in, like, Sound of Hope, which I'm sure, like, give me the worst, and give me all of them, all right? Those people are almost another species, right? They're there at the top.

• 1:01:16Mike Rowe?

  And then under them, you've got these extraordinary people who are in it, but have their own life and they're not quite ready to blow the whole thing up. But they'll blow up part of it. And then the further down you get, the more just regular folks you'll want to know. I'm down there toward the bottom, maybe middle, slightly. And I know, though, I know that when I meet people who are so clearly doing a thing that I'm not willing to do, I can support them, and that makes me feel good. Because I don't want to do what they're doing. I don't want to foster a kid. I got too much going on. I don't know if you've looked around, but kind of a big deal. You didn't know me.

• 1:01:56Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:01:56Mike Rowe?

  You don't know. Supposedly. But I like it.

• 1:01:58Speaker 02

  But supposedly, you are famous.

• 1:02:00Mike Rowe?

  So I can't compromise that level of B-list quasi-celebrity, you know?

• 1:02:06Speaker 02

  If you want to put that on a shirt, you can use it. You don't even, actually, I signed something. You can use it all throughout the universe.

• 1:02:12Mike Rowe?

  But I'm not so fallen and not so craven that I don't want to help. And I want to help as I can in my own crappy industry. And I can also write checks and do things on a personal level. I know that most people are like that. And I know that most people, when they witness the thing, when they see the thing, they will be convicted to do something. The question is what? What did Bishop Martin inspire those people to do? You know, through the power of his personality? Whatever the answer is, that's, I think we started talking about persuasion at the beginning of this thing.

• 1:02:54Mike Rowe?

  Because that's a lot of what TV is, and that's a lot of what you do day in and day out. And that's what any effective person I've ever met ultimately has to grapple with. How can I best persuade people to join me in my effort to make the Isaiah House a household name? Right? Or whatever it is. So I'm just throwing that in there because if I'm right in my theory, then the vast majority of people listening are rooting for you. But they won't do what you've done. And then a big chunk of those people will actually help you do more of what you're, you're doing. And so forth and so on. And more than anything else, Rhonda. That's what returning the favor proved to me.

• 1:03:39Mike Rowe?

  It proved the pyramid was was real. There are only so many Rhonda Paulsons and Luke Mickelsons and I can go down the list. But there are a lot of people who are rooting for you, who want to help. And even though they sent you in the hospital four times in 2020 with their love, calling your number, which for some reason you put on the world wide web.

• 1:04:02Speaker 02

  I don't know. I don't know. I did not know what I was doing. It's very clear.

• 1:04:06Mike Rowe?

  Right. But that's another quality of the level of bloody do-gooderism I'm talking about. And it goes to preparedness. How prepared do you need to be to take action? If the answer is somewhat, then you're probably sane. If the answer is not at all, then I don't know what to say. And if the answer is completely and utterly and totally prepared, then you're at the bottom of the pyramid, right?

• 1:04:34Speaker 02

  You'll be paralyzed forever.

• 1:04:36Mike Rowe?

  Correct.

• 1:04:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:37Mike Rowe?

  Correct. So what do you think? I mean, do we all get moments of clarity in life where we just have to decide? Do we all get that breakdown after the third meeting like Corey had? Where he's like, ah, damn it, I don't want this, but I see it? I mean.

• 1:04:56Speaker 02

  Well, two things as you were talking. One thing, I see the pyramid. But one thing that I've had the privilege to experience is there's more people up here than you realize. Because the people that are coming to want to start an Isaiah 117 house, they're all up here and there's a ton of them. And they go and they do it. And they are coming and they are putting everything on hold because they want this for the children of their community. And they are working their tails off. And I mean, I'm meeting them day after day after day. And they are loving and kind and talented and enthusiastic and they're just doing it.

• 1:05:35Mike Rowe?

  I'm not saying they're few in number.

• 1:05:37Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:05:37Mike Rowe?

  I'm saying in relative terms.

• 1:05:39Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. But they're amazing.

• 1:05:40Mike Rowe?

  They are outnumbered.

• 1:05:42Speaker 02

  Maybe. But it's amazing to see, like, they just keep coming. And it just, it does my heart so good. I mean, it's just been so good for my soul to see. We get to see, unfortunately, the absolute worst of humanity in the work that we do. But I also get to see the best. Like, they just keep showing up. Like, it's unbelievable. But to what you just said. I can only speak to what I've experienced. I do think in our core, we all know what we are being convicted to do. And when we say yes, there is a freedom and a happiness and a joy and a blessing that we experience that we will not experience when we say no.

• 1:06:26Speaker 02

  Does it make us better or less than, or there's just a joy and a happiness that we won't tap into when we continue to say no to that conviction?

• 1:06:36Mike Rowe?

  Well, there is certainly a freedom that comes paradoxically with the realization that you don't have a choice and that you're not really in charge. When you let go, that I get that, I get that. But that's, it's the old trust exercise you remember from an acting class way back. You know, you're standing on the edge of the stage and your buddies are behind you and they're going to catch you. All you have to do is fall straight back. You gotta put your faith in something else. Now, doesn't always work out, but there's freedom in the choice, you know? Did you feel like you were falling for a while there?

• 1:07:18Speaker 02

  It's been a wild ride. It's been a wild ride. But when Chuck called and we got on the screen and he said, "Do you think you could come out to California?" I said, "I ended up in the hospital four times. He blew my life up. I nearly died. I'm having hives right now. I'm sweating, but I will forever be indebted to you." And I don't say that lightly. Forever, because there are over 6,000 children that have walked through a little red door because you said yes to returning the favor. And so I gladly got on a plane to come out here, even though I'm sweating right now

• 1:08:03Speaker 02

  too, because I will forever be indebted. I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful.

• 1:08:07Mike Rowe?

  You made me cry on my own stupid podcast. I'm firing Chuck.

• 1:08:11Speaker 02

  So, thank you.

• 1:08:14Mike Rowe?

  Hey, we're a, we're part of a mosaic, I think. Look at me with the metaphors. Pyramids and mosaics. Brick walls and grout and tile. I don't

• 1:08:29Mike Rowe?

  I'll take the credit for saying yes when I said it. I can't take much credit beyond that. I really, truly looked for people toward the top of that pyramid. I asked Sarah to look for them. They knew the mandate. You're right, they're everywhere. They're the neighbors you wish you had. And you're among them, for sure. And we would have deemed that whole adventure a success had your number not been right there on the world wide web. Look, you didn't sign up for it, but the fact that it's happened is wonderful.

• 1:09:11Mike Rowe?

  And I guess I'd be derelict if I didn't say, I mean, clearly, you're not calling the shots. Clearly, you're not really in control of any of this. But what do you want to see happen with the time you have left on this blue ball, whirling around the sun? What do you want Isaiah House to become? And what do you honestly, reasonably think can happen if the people who are watching this decide to blow you up again?

• 1:09:43Speaker 02

  I want to see the church mobilized. I want to see them stop pointing fingers at the state. I want us to step into our calling. I want us to stop being afraid. You know, so many people are afraid. I couldn't bring that child into my house. It's a child in need. I want legislation change. It's not in favor of the child. And it leaves a child in limbo for years and years and years. And then it makes a really hardened teen that then stays in limbo. And then it just keeps the cycle going.

• 1:10:28Speaker 02

  I want to see Isaiah 117 houses continue to grow and be a safe place for children to be reminded that they are not alone, they are not in trouble, that they are loved, and that there is hope.

• 1:10:43Speaker 02

  I think that's what I want.

• 1:10:45Mike Rowe?

  What can people do down there on the lower parts of the pyramid? Who are just saying, "All right, all right, you got me. You got me. You got me." I was just minding my own business, flicking around the Youtubes. I saw this woman, and you got me. What do you want?

• 1:11:03Speaker 02

  If you have thought ever about being a foster parent, you are needed. So find out in your local community where you could take a class, and just take the classes. If you want to support Isaiah 117 House, visit our website. It's all right there. Isaiah117house.com. If you want to do anything like Isaiah 117 House, you don't need a Rhonda. I didn't have a Rhonda. You don't need a Rhonda. Don't be paralyzed by the big picture. Just take it one step at a time. I do believe we are all called to be part of this solution in different ways. But I do believe we are all called to be part of the solution.

• 1:11:47Speaker 02

  So I think that's it.

• 1:11:50Speaker 01

  That's beautiful.

• 1:11:52Mike Rowe?

  We're going to give this thing a shot, actually. I'm serious about that. I'm going to talk to Sarah.

• 1:11:58Mike Rowe?

  Mary's all in. We've got another production company who's game. No idea what will come of it. But every now and then, you've got to say yes, right?

• 1:12:09Speaker 02

  You do, you do.

• 1:12:11Mike Rowe?

  Thanks for coming out.

• 1:12:12Speaker 02

  Oh, my pleasure, my pleasure.

• 1:12:14Speaker 04

  If you leave some stars, could you make it five? And before you go, could you please subscribe? If you leave some stars, could you make it five? And before you go, could you please subscribe? If you leave some stars, could you make it five? And before you go.

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