ROLLUP: Bitcoin All-Time-High, Is ETH Next?

This week, Ryan and David celebrate Bitcoin's new all-time highs as Ethereum sentiment explodes. ETH treasury firms are racing to stockpile billions, Fidelity is framing ETH as a store-of-value, and mainstream media is finally paying attention. So why isn't the price moving faster? They unpack the $8.6 billion Bitcoin whale awakening, Pump's $4 billion ICO, and crypto's "what color is the dress" moment with Zelensky's suit. Plus, Hyperliquid beats Solana at its own game, Robinhood pushes tokenized stocks, and prediction markets face a credibility crisis. Also, is ETH gearing up for a vertical breakout or just stuck in a bullish echo chamber? ------ 📣SPOTIFY PREMIUM RSS FEED | USE CODE: SPOTIFY24 https://bankless.cc/spotify-premium ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: 🪙FRAX | SELF SUFFICIENT DeFi https://bankless.cc/Frax 🦄UNISWAP | SWAP ON UNICHAIN https://bankless.cc/unichain 🛞MANTLE | MODULAR LAYER 2 NETWORK https://bankless.cc/Mantle 🟠BINANCE | THE WORLDS #1 CRYPTO EXCHANGE https://bankless.cc/binance ------ TIMESTAMPS & RESOURCES 0:00 Intro 1:46 Markets https://thequantuminsider.com/2025/07/08/did-quantum-fears-prompt-a-bitcoin-whale-to-make-an-8-billion-move/ https://x.com/Pentosh1/status/1942578558498427027 https://x.com/l3olanza/status/1943010575623074228 https://x.com/RyanSAdams/status/1943306201007034471 https://x.com/sassal0x/status/1943155217500897660 https://x.com/cryptomanran/status/1942854141308723597 https://x.com/RyanSAdams/status/1943014863359398166 https://x.com/SharpLinkGaming/status/1942320301414457777 https://x.com/Jrag0x/status/1942631804038443405 https://x.com/BitDigital_BTBT/status/1942954089647833552 https://www.strategicethreserve.xyz/ https://x.com/RyanSAdams/status/1942911577037963452 https://x.com/fabdarice/status/1943205144436629554 https://x.com/RyanSAdams/status/1942742550982373816 https://x.com/RyanSAdams/status/1943097344427245908 https://x.com/smyyguy/status/1942974829537165788 https://x.com/RyanSAdams/status/1942676961681170592 https://x.com/TrustlessState/status/1942628566610358756 https://x.com/SolanaFloor/status/1942955685534167471 https://x.com/EricBalchunas/status/1942963302109524450 https://farside.co.uk/sol/ https://x.com/solidintel_x/status/1943280583808798761 29:58 Pump.fun’s ICO will kick off this weekend! https://x.com/pumpdotfun/status/1942947267436056740 https://x.com/whosknave/status/1942956245331370390 https://x.com/a1lon9/status/1942948097237172509 https://x.com/a1lon9/status/1942948099854328150 https://blockworks.co/analytics/solana/solana-launchpads/solana-launchpad-volume/ 37:51 What happened with Polymarket and the bet over Zelenky’s outfit? https://imgur.com/a/2vfr3Hy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dgAzRF96m4 https://x.com/BanklessHQ/status/1942592467120832784 https://polymarket.com/event/will-zelenskyy-wear-a-suit-before-july?tid=1751599304475 https://x.com/dieworkwear/status/1941013198465114263 https://x.com/Atlantislq/status/1940428544594563581 https://dune.com/queries/1096172/1874464 47:33 Phantom added Hyperliquid perps into its wallet https://x.com/phantom/status/1942628993636917311 The choice of Hyperliquid was surprising! https://x.com/DefiSolar/status/1942657673994068081 https://dune.com/uwusanauwu/perps https://x.com/pumatheuma/status/1942669033771536640 51:24 Tornado Cash win! https://x.com/valkenburgh/status/1942262643546292443 https://x.com/RyanSAdams/status/1941876192476275098 https://freeromanstorm.com/ 54:52 Foundations are making moves https://x.com/solana/status/1942945696061313306 https://x.com/monad_xyz/status/1942933687978365289 57:24 Jack Dorsey introduced a decentralized messaging without internet https://x.com/DocumentingBTC/status/1942351534009807179 58:43 Is Robinhood might be in trouble in the EU over its tokenized stocks? https://www.theblock.co/post/361534/robinhood-engaged-with-regulators-over-tokenized-stocks https://x.com/RyanSAdams/status/1943009436546560432 1:04:21 Closing & Disclaimers ------ Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures⁠

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Ryan Sean Adams?

  Bankless Station is the second week of July. It is time for the Bankless Weekly Roll-Up. We got Bitcoin all-time highs, David. We made it, we did it. It's been, what, eight weeks since an all-time high? Something like this?

• 0:17David Hoffman?

  About that, yeah. And we were just watching it go higher and higher and higher. So as I am speaking this sentence, there is yet another Bitcoin all-time high, different from the first all-time high that started when you started that sentence just a moment ago.

• 0:29Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's the way we like it. Also, David, there's a big sentiment shift I'm feeling in Ether, the asset, this week, okay? We've got ETH Treasury companies taking center stage, a bunch of big announcements. ETH on mainstream finance on a daily basis, getting that Bloomberg, getting that CNBC. But the question is, is this going to translate into a big price move, okay? We got a price move on the week, but was it big enough? Not as big as it should be, I think. So we're going to talk about that, too.

• 0:58David Hoffman?

  The word that we're looking for is idiosyncratic, and that is not yet what we have. It's what we all want, an idiosyncratic move in ETH. We don't have it yet. It's going up, it's going in the right direction. Not quite there yet. We're going to also talk about the Pump ICO that is starting this week on Saturday. The Pump ICO will open up on exchanges. Apparently, the private sale for the Pump ICO is completely sold out. And so the public sale to just investors on exchanges opens up on Saturday. We're going to talk about, at $4 billion, is Ryan a buyer or a non-buyer of the Pump token? We are going to give a detailed analysis of exactly what Ryan's going to do. And then also, crypto gets its "what color is the dress" moment with the Zelensky suit. We're going to talk about that.

• 1:42David Hoffman?

  And then also, Jack Dorsey invents a new way to send Bitcoin.

• 1:46Ryan Sean Adams?

  David, let's start with prices. Bitcoin all-time high week, okay? This could be a new all-time high by the time Bankless listeners are listening to this. But what do we got at the time of recording?

• 1:55David Hoffman?

  Oh man, we haven't had an all-time high in about 2 minutes and 15 seconds. We are currently coming in at $113,0562 for a Bitcoin. The new all-time high happened about, yeah, 3 minutes ago. $13,820. $820, that's pretty good. We are up like $3,000 in the last like hour or so.

• 2:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, it was good, it's good to break that, you know, 100K to 110K range that we've been like range bound, bound like in for a long time. We finally broke through that. Also, this weekend, which is kind of interesting, it was all over crypto Twitter. The Bitcoin whale woke up and moved some assets, alright? I saw this on, I think it was the day after the 4th of July, right? We had a long weekend here in the United States of America. And I think this was on Saturday, this started to happen, which was a really early address, Bitcoin address. I think we're talking like circa 2010?

• 2:55David Hoffman?

  2011?

• 2:56Ryan Sean Adams?

  2011?

• 2:56David Hoffman?

  2011.

• 2:57Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, so super early address. A lot of the funds in this address through Bitcoin mining, I believe. $8 billion on the move. An address that hasn't moved in what, like 13 years, something like that?

• 3:10David Hoffman?

  Imagine hodling Bitcoin for 13 years. Up to $8.6 billion.

• 3:15Ryan Sean Adams?

  $8.6 billion. And of course, when this amount moves with one of those early addresses, like everybody takes notice. There were a lot of rumors about this. Some people were saying, oh, well, maybe the whale was worried about, he had some quantum fears. And of course, like, early Bitcoin addresses are susceptible to a quantum attack in a way

• 3:33David Hoffman?

  The most at risk.

• 3:34Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, the newer ones wouldn't, so maybe they're just moving for that. Other people were saying, somebody maybe got out of jail? You know, like they've been in the clink for like a decade?

• 3:43David Hoffman?

  Do you mean Ross Ulbricht?

• 3:45Ryan Sean Adams?

  I have no, yes, possibly.

• 3:48David Hoffman?

  Yeah, people were talking about like, oh, well, Ross gets out of jail and 3 months later, 80,000 Bitcoin move from 2011 when the Silk Road was operational.

• 3:57Ryan Sean Adams?

  Interesting.

• 3:58David Hoffman?

  I mean, like, there's no evidence, there's only speculation, but it's a pretty good bit of speculation.

• 4:02Ryan Sean Adams?

  There was also other people, people were saying someone got hacked, quite obviously. Other people were saying, this is the US government buying, okay? So the US, look, man, it's rumor mill, right? Somebody was saying like, okay, this is the US government going OTC. And this is Trump setting up his strategic Bitcoin reserve and finding an early whale and just making one a nice OTC purchase. He's getting ready to announce it. I'm recycling rumors.

• 4:26David Hoffman?

  That one did not happen. That one did not happen.

• 4:28Ryan Sean Adams?

  Of course, of course.

• 4:29David Hoffman?

  It wasn't that one.

• 4:30Ryan Sean Adams?

  The interesting thing about this, I always find is this is free advertising for Bitcoin all the time and for crypto all the time. Because like, it's so mind boggling to think about $8.6 billion just like moving in an instant. And so.

• 4:44David Hoffman?

  And we all get to see.

• 4:45Ryan Sean Adams?

  We all get to see. It's so, it's free advertising for Bitcoin. Also, it's just like, we need some privacy, don't we? Wow, like, everybody can see it, every single transaction on chain. And, you know, maybe this is a.

• 4:56David Hoffman?

  It's cool for a bit. And then, and then when you realize that we are legitimately trying to get all of society on chain and we still haven't like rid the world of authoritarianism, then you're like, oh yeah, no, we need privacy.

• 5:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, so lots of things, but we, we have no idea why this Bitcoin is on the move. It'll probably be unresolved for forever, maybe, or maybe someday we'll find out.

• 5:15David Hoffman?

  The Bitcoin, the Bitcoiner who moved that is not going to raise his hand. It was me and here's why I did it. That will not happen.

• 5:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right, enough about Bitcoin. Tell me about ETH price, David, because we got to talk about ETH for a little bit on today's episode. It was a big week.

• 5:30David Hoffman?

  Mm hmm. ETH price is also on the move, $2,820, a recent high of $2,830. But ETH BTC is up on the week as well. We're up, up, up about seven or eight percent. So even when Bitcoin gets all time high, ETH BTC is up about seven or eight percent on the week this week. And since ETH was up in dollar terms and up in Bitcoin terms, you know what that's called, Ryan?

• 5:55Ryan Sean Adams?

  What's that called?

• 5:57David Hoffman?

  It's called a Ryan Sean Adams week, my friend. It's when they're, when they're both green, it's called a Ryan week. Congratulations.

• 6:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh my God, I appreciate you glowing me up, you know, I, I'll take credit for this one too. I'll take credit for every week that green is, that ETH is green. Somebody else has got to take credit for the, for the red weeks, though. It's not going to be me.

• 6:12David Hoffman?

  Hang on, I'm going to contest you a little bit for the credit because while ETH was pumping, I was actually climbing. I was on a wall.

• 6:19Ryan Sean Adams?

  You were climbing, but you were climbing. What were you, so what have you been climbing lately, by the way?

• 6:24David Hoffman?

  Yeah, okay, so my big climb got canceled just due to weather, unfortunately. First time this ever happened to me, but it's always destined. So I'm just climbing a bunch of like smaller things rather than like a double overnight, like two overnights. I'm doing just like day climbs. This is a hike. This is like a trail run in the middle of two climbs. So last, yesterday I went to Italy and did a valley climb, so stayed low to the ground. Tomorrow, I go actually do a summit, so it's a bigger climb. So if there's a bigger pump tomorrow, I'm taking more of the credit. I'm taking more credit.

• 6:55Ryan Sean Adams?

  I feel like that's right, and this is you on a like a morning run through what looks like a Sound of Music style like landscape somewhere in France. It's absolutely beautiful, and I think you tagged this running from the bear. And you're talking about the bear market, right? You're just running.

• 7:09David Hoffman?

  Yeah, well, no, I said I'm running from the bears, meaning bearish people. I'm running away from bearish people. And then people are like, I don't, I didn't see any bears. I'm like, okay, you didn't get it. Maybe it's a bad joke.

• 7:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, the ETH bears are really getting run out of town these days. I feel like there's a massive sentiment shift in ETH right now. I don't know if you've noticed it, but.

• 7:28David Hoffman?

  Oh, definitely.

• 7:29Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, this is a count.

• 7:30David Hoffman?

  I don't know how, but it's just like all the Ethereum communities is like, all right, we are bullish now, and that's, and it's just time. It's just time to be bullish.

• 7:37Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's time to be bullish. I think it is absolutely time to be bullish. I think the ETH community is really woken up to that. Like more on that later. I want to get some of your commentary on that, and I'll give you some of mine. But this is an account that, this is a trader account, Pentoshi. Do you know this guy? I don't know him really, but.

• 7:53David Hoffman?

  I know the account, yeah.

• 7:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  He doesn't usually tweet ETH, you know, bullish sentiment. And now he is tweeting ETH bullish sentiment. So even when kind of traders, Bitcoin maxi types, start getting bullish on ETH, then you know something is happening.

• 8:08David Hoffman?

  Right, when, yeah, because like I feel like the ETH community is kind of like misaligned with traders, and traders are generally misaligned with like Ethereum just because like Ethereum is just like, no, don't trade, just hold.

• 8:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 8:19David Hoffman?

  But then when traders are like, okay, ETH looks actually kind of bullish, you know it's true, because that's like the last asset that they'll say is bullish.

• 8:25Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's right, right. So so once every four years, kind of all of these things align, right? And so maybe we're getting into an aligned territory. This is a, look at this chart. Okay, now this is from. This is pure ETH maxi hopium, I think, but the context for this chart is-

• 8:38David Hoffman?

  Irrational ETH maxi, I'll call it.

• 8:40Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yes, the context for this chart, though, does have some history to it. And ETH has a history of ripping straight up. Once it decides to go, lots of people will be left behind. Are you one of them? Are you one of them, Bankless listener? Okay, so these are the big rips in the past, right? We had a 2016 kind of big rip up. We had the 2016 ICO boom. And then, of course, we had-

• 9:00David Hoffman?

  2017.

• 9:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, 2017 ICO boom. And then, of course, we had Defi summer 2020. And you could see a massive amount of price movement in a consolidated period of time, okay? And if you keep drawing the square, David, we could have a massive move.

• 9:16David Hoffman?

  He was moved the square over to where we are.

• 9:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, all the way to 100k ETH, okay? It might not be as explosive as that, but there's a point-

• 9:26David Hoffman?

  It's not called 100k, I'm sorry.

• 9:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  When we have big price moves, it moves in a hurry and there's not much time. So you have to be positioned before ETH moves. You think that'll carry into this cycle?

• 9:36David Hoffman?

  Yeah, you know, at some point, how long has ETH just been flat? It's been ETH, ETH has been flat for so long. It's been flat for like a third of his life.

• 9:45Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 9:46David Hoffman?

  And so, at some point, you know, at some point, it's due.

• 9:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, it's due for a pump.

• 9:51David Hoffman?

  It's due for a pump.

• 9:52Ryan Sean Adams?

  One other metric you might be interested in is the ETF flows. So yesterday, ETH ETF flows were 211 million inbound net inflows. Bitcoin was 215 million. So that's only a $4 million difference on daily inflows, which is very bullish.

• 10:10David Hoffman?

  Which is when like Bitcoin is eight times larger than ETH. That $4 million doesn't matter.

• 10:17Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, it's fantastic. Now, some people are saying that all of this sentiment shift, and we do have a price up this week, but what was it? Like a 5%, 6% price increase?

• 10:27David Hoffman?

  It was not idiosyncratic. It was following the market.

• 10:32Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, and so this is Ran, Crypto Man Ran, you know Ran, right? And he said this, and this was, to be fair, before a little bit of the action on the upside this week, but he said this, "I'm genuinely concerned about ETH. The sentiment on my timeline is euphoric, but the price isn't moving at all. ETH bulls are celebrating 2,600, of course, now it's 2,800 the time of recording, but still, not any idiosyncratic pump." He said, "If it doesn't actually start moving soon, the next move could be down." Why do you think there's a disconnect right now between the bullish sentiment, which is verging on euphoric? I mean, I don't think I've heard the ETH community this excited in a long time.

• 11:12David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 11:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  But it's really, it's sentiment first. Usually, usually you have price first, and then sentiment follows price. And now we have sentiment first? What's up with that?

• 11:21David Hoffman?

  It is pretty peculiar. I don't think I've ever remembered something like this happening quite this way before. You do have to point towards all of the ETH treasury companies that have come online. Tom Lee was the unexpected white swan of ETH evangelism to Wall Street. Like, I don't think anyone really saw Tom Lee coming, and he's a very credible figure.

• 11:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 11:42David Hoffman?

  And that's after Joseph Lubin and SharpLink Gaming, and now there's like three, four, five more that are all coming online.

• 11:48Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh, yeah.

• 11:49David Hoffman?

  And so, yeah, sentiment can kind of get ahead of price here, but also that makes sense with what treasury companies do. Like, treasury companies have this expectation of buying more ETH than what they currently hold. And so there's all of these vehicles that are now, it's their number one job, to go out and source as much ETH as possible, and all of them pumped this week. And so maybe the price didn't show up in the ETH price. It did a little bit, like $200 to $300 price increase, but all of the ETH treasury companies are up between 15 and 50%.

• 12:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh, that's true.

• 12:21David Hoffman?

  Sbet is up 50% this week.

• 12:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh, that's true.

• 12:25David Hoffman?

  Did you ever buy any S bet? We don't actually talk about what we buy. Did you ever buy any S bet?

• 12:29Ryan Sean Adams?

  I'm not gonna say I didn't, David.

• 12:32David Hoffman?

  I bought, I bought S bet when like all of crypto Twitter was like grave dancing on it. Cause it like, it did this crazy move up to 35, $50 and then it crashed down to like seven or eight dollars and all of crypto Twitter, the anti ETH people are like, there's crime, there's crime, there's crime here. And then it turns out there was no crime. And there was just like the cohort of people who are gleefully grave dancing on something ETH related. I'm like, you know what? I'm, I'm gonna buy and that's what I bought. And I am up 80%. I'm up 80% right now.

• 13:04Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's funny. I bet there's a lot of ETH believers, long-term ETH investors who are actually like, you know what? Screw it. I'm, I have enough ETH, but maybe I'm gonna do some of these, these treasury stocks. And they're probably up like, you know, 2X, 3X, 4X on those treasury stocks. And maybe that accounts for some of it. I also, you want another bullish take on, on the, the sentiment move before price? I'll give it to you, okay? I think it's signal because I think this is holders and long-term investors who are just saying what you said a little bit earlier with enough is enough. Price has gotta go up. We are bullish. And to see that on crypto Twitter, to see sentiment first before price? I think that's a signal because often you get kind of like, you know, price moves and traders,

• 13:46Ryan Sean Adams?

  you know, kind of action and they're pumping after the fact and they wanna keep the momentum. But we're seeing, to, to see kind of the build in sentiment before we get a good price move? It feels more foundational. It feels just a bit more fundamental here and I think could be a good sign.

• 14:02David Hoffman?

  I think all of this is gonna be determined by the ETH price over the next like two weeks. Because if there's no move, then, then it was just hopium. We were just huffing hopium and we were all just passing hopium around. But if it did move, then we're all gonna pat ourselves on the back and be geniuses. And also that will inspire momentum for the next move. Because there is a, like a positive feedback loop of seven ETH treasury companies go online. ETH pumps by $500. All of those treasury companies pump by like 3X. They have more premium to issue more assets so they can buy more ETH. And so we are in a very critical point right now, I would say with the ETH market, where there needs to get some momentum under these ETH treasury vehicles.

• 14:47David Hoffman?

  So that the appreciation of ETH can show up in the equity so they can start the flywheel. And it has to happen like pretty soon.

• 14:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  The thing that is new that we have never seen across any cycles is so much mainstream attention on ETH or the asset. So this is a clip. This is Joe Lubin on CNBC. You can see him. He's like on the hot seat. Most of the time, you've seen Bitcoin folks be like on CNBC and Bloomberg. It's in this traditional finance. These, you know, we've got Vlad from Robinhood talking about tokenization. So he's a credible figure on traditional finance. You mentioned Tom Lee. You got Joe Lubin in rotation. You and I, David, just did an episode with the ETH Treasury company BitDigital and the CEO, he's been making the rounds. So that is something new this cycle. And you were talking about the ETH

• 15:33Ryan Sean Adams?

  Treasury companies right now. There does seem to be some kind of a race for acquiring as much ETH as possible, maybe a race to $1 billion. So we have, of course, let me filter. You can find all this at the Strategic ETH Reserve, by the way. Let me filter by treasuries.

• 15:49David Hoffman?

  Website, dot xyz.

• 15:51Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, dot xyz. So we got Sharplink, that's Joe Lubin, Sbet. They're number one. They've got almost 600 million ETH right now. Then we've got BitDigital, number two. That's the CEO David and I just interviewed. That episode's going to be out next week. They've got close to 300 million in terms of ETH. And followed by this company, BTCS, they've got about $40 million of ETH. But just this week, they announced a plan to purchase 225 more, million more, I should say. And we also have Tom Lee, who's not yet on this chart, but we know is coming soon with a $250 million buy and some kind of a promise to be like the biggest of all of them. So he's doing that. And then there was this, a fifth company

• 16:36Ryan Sean Adams?

  that announced this week. The ticker for this company is Game, okay? And they announced an intent to purchase $100 million worth of ETH. And interesting, this is a gaming company of some sort. I haven't looked into the detail, but you know, the Fortnite streamer, Twitch streamer Ninja, he's somehow involved in this. So like, all of this just happened in a very short period of time. And I think that's all feeding into sentiment right now.

• 17:02David Hoffman?

  Yeah. It does feel frothy when like unrelated Twitch streamers are doing ETH Treasury companies. I'm like, ugh. I would like that to be a little bit more closer to I prefer Joe Lubin personally.

• 17:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  I feel like it's not frothy if ETH is not at all time high. My God, I mean, if this is frothy, if we're frothy in the 2000s, we got to get to like at least 5K to like do something to like make me excited anyway.

• 17:28David Hoffman?

  So the Ethereum network issues about $6.5 million of ETH at present prices, 2,330 Ether a day. Joseph Lubin has stated that he intends on buying tens of millions of dollars of ETH per day. So just Joseph Lubin alone is sucking up all net new issuance and that's just the one treasury company and there's like five more to follow on top of that. So like at some point, like it has to actually show up in the ETH price. How much? Like what the magnitude is remains to be seen, but like it's got something's got to give.

• 18:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  I'm also excited about the way it's being pitched, by the way. I don't know. I know you've been hiking the mountains this week, but did you catch this report that Fidelity put out?

• 18:09David Hoffman?

  Uh, no, I did not actually.

• 18:10Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, so basically the title of this report is blockchains as emerging economies. And this is again.

• 18:16David Hoffman?

  I like that title. I love that title.

• 18:19Ryan Sean Adams?

  You will. You will absolutely love this report. Actually, I totally think you should read it or at least put it in chat GPT.

• 18:25David Hoffman?

  Remember when we had Haseeb on? I think it was the first time we ever had Haseeb on and he had just released this article like blockchains are cities. And then it was it was a good episode. And at the very end, we were like, Haseeb, we think they're countries.

• 18:37Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah. And have for a long time. I mean, I was actually going down memory lane, David. Do you remember this episode? A bankless nation, episode number 17?

• 18:45David Hoffman?

  Core bankless, yeah.

• 18:46Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, basically that the way to think of layer one networks and blockchains is as emerging economies, the way to think of their money is as a currency, particularly a store of value currency. Guess what? That's exactly what this fidelity report says. Look at, look at some of these charts, right? In the same way that, you know, blockchains can incorporate a GDP like framework to illustrate how their economic activity has developed. Yeah, they compare, they compare, you know, like nations.

• 19:12David Hoffman?

  I'm getting high.

• 19:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  Exactly to Ethereum. They talk in terms of GDP. Look at this one. The following sections will also demonstrate that. Ether can serve as a medium of exchange and store of value. Okay, like the way they couch it and the way they're pitching it is like they totally understand it. They totally get it. It's kind of how we've thought about them for a long time. And now it's seeping into into the fidelity reports, which is fantastic. In fact, this is Ryan Watkins, okay? I'm not sure if he's a fan of bankless, maybe like not so much, but he said this.

• 19:42David Hoffman?

  We've had him on the show.

• 19:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, okay. He said, listening to people show the new ETH treasury on CNBC. Legit sounds like I'm listening to a bankless podcast in 2021.

• 19:51David Hoffman?

  I don't know if he meant that as a compliment. When ETH was all time high, when market dominance was all time high, fantastic. That's great.

• 19:57Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, so the narratives are getting through here too. And yeah, it's basically the narrative of ETH as a store of value asset. Now, Tom Lee is saying a bit more. He's saying like stablecoin, you're bullish stablecoins. ETH is the stablecoin platform, therefore you should be bullish ETH. This is kind of another report that came out this week from Electric Capital, which says as much. Also says ETH is a store of value asset, reserve asset. But they make the case for, you know, ETH as a store of value and a place for stablecoins tokenization. Anyway, this flood of reports, the flood of ETH treasuries feels like it's all happening at once. And all of this has contributed to the massive sentiment change.

• 20:38David Hoffman?

  Beautiful, yeah. It does feel like 2021, which feels really good, actually. That was like my favorite time.

• 20:45Ryan Sean Adams?

  So as you know, since I've come back, David, I've been more the like the reckless. Well, I'm just like, I'm kind of doing what a lot of ETH people are doing right now, which is like, I'm deciding to be bullish. Why?

• 20:55David Hoffman?

  You're leaning over your skis. Not leaving, not leaving too far. I didn't say that, but you are, when you want to go fast down a mountain, you lean over your skis. And you are leaning over your skis.

• 21:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's a way to frame it, I would say. I'm just like, what I'm saying is like, all of the elements are there. Like my take is like, all of the elements are there for ETH to be worth way more. And we just haven't captured the narrative for people to realize that. Anyway, I came back, I decided to be blue money gospel bullish, right? Since I've come back, it feels like you, you are bullish ETH, but you're also more. If I'm a reckless bull right now, you're more of a cautionary type bull.

• 21:33David Hoffman?

  Yeah, I'm leaning, I'm leaning back on my skis.

• 21:35Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, so you wrote this blog post this week called "The Two Sides of ETH." And just give us your take, because I think you're, you're wrestling, there's, there's two wolves inside of David Hoffman. You know, one is the ETH bull, maxi bull, and the other is kind of someone who's concerned about the Ethereum roadmap, at least to some degree. And tell me what you were getting across in this article that you published.

• 21:56David Hoffman?

  Yeah, so what I'm, my concern is that we have, we have a lot of great narratives with Ethereum. And narratives do couple to fundamentals in some degree. And like you see Tom Lee going on CNBC and talking about all of the great reasons that ETH is valuable. You see Fidelity doing it now. And so like, if you want to paint a very bullish narrative for Ether, it's easy. It's easy to do that, and we are watching that happen in real time. That's what all these ETH treasury companies are doing, which is great. Telling the ETH story, always, Ethereum always needs to have its story told. It's one of the more complicated stories ever. What I am concerned about is that we can use narrative and storytelling to like, paper over cracks.

• 22:40David Hoffman?

  And, you know, cracks will never be perfectly filled. Every blockchain has its foundations that have cracks in them. Like Bitcoin has its security budget, but it just papers that over with a 21 million hard cap. And that works very well.

• 22:54Ryan Sean Adams?

  Don't worry about quantum, don't worry about security budget.

• 22:57David Hoffman?

  Yeah, yeah, like, don't look at the stake-weighted QOS centralization of Solana. Like, you know, they just, chain goes fast, you know, decentralized NASDAQ. And so it's very easy to paper over problems or incomplete parts, components of the Ethereum fundamentals.

• 23:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay.

• 23:14David Hoffman?

  And what I'm trying to say is, let's not forget those and let's still, let's still be, wear our problems on our chest like we always do, talk about them, focus on them, talk about how to fix them. Because when we do fix them, then ETH can be even more bullish. And so like, I'm in pursuit of like, kind of taking the hard path.

• 23:37Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 23:38David Hoffman?

  Of just trying to just take all of the pain now.

• 23:42Ryan Sean Adams?

  Sure.

• 23:42David Hoffman?

  So that we never have to have any of the three, four years downwards price action that ETH has had in the last four years ever again. And we have to do that by like, taking the medicine, building the foundation right. Because if you build the foundation right, then you just give so much more ammo to people like Tom Lee and Joseph Lubin. So I'm kind of just advocating to like, not paper over our problems and still prioritize them and emphasize them. And it's okay to talk about them.

• 24:08Ryan Sean Adams?

  I, there's, that's impossible to disagree with. That's a complete agree from my perspective. What are those things that you see as kind of the problem now in Ethereum that need to be worked on? And yeah, like, what would you name?

• 24:20David Hoffman?

  The, I think the big thing is just the layer two value capture question. And there's no real way to like, we can't go back, we're not undoing layer twos, right? But we can heavily encourage and research and push towards base and native rollups is like, one possible solution. But there's need to be a stronger supply chain of like Ethereum's layer two roadmap and the value capture of ETH. And there's no, we can't tariff the layer twos. That's nonsensical. That's not going to work. What we can do is we can build out standards for like, native rollups or base rollups that use more layer one resources.

• 24:57David Hoffman?

  So that when somebody buys and sends a billion dollars of stable coins, that actually does have a meaningful value flow into either the asset. Whereas today, now, if you just buy and send $10 billion of USSEC on base, ETH gets like, less than one penny of value capture from that transaction.

• 25:16Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah. I, look, I get that. And it also seems like very much that ETH has bent the roadmap in that direction anyway. I mean, there is massive work on a base and native rollups.

• 25:26David Hoffman?

  A lot to do.

• 25:26Ryan Sean Adams?

  There's a lot to do. Um, I don't, did you catch the Justin Drake at ETHCC who was talking about how we get to 10,000 TPS, right? There's massive improvements that have gone on with ZK proving technology, real time ZK proving technology. And there's a credible path in the next five years to. Get to 10,000 TPS. Not to say that that work still doesn't need to be done. It absolutely does. But like, there is definitely a shift towards prioritizing scaling the L1, prioritizing based on native rollups and prioritizing interoperability. But I totally get the take that like, job's not finished, right? And like, if we lose sight of that, then we won't be able to sustain this momentum beyond kind of the narrative pump.

• 26:08Ryan Sean Adams?

  That said, to me, I do feel like ETH doesn't need a reason to pump at this point. It's got a lot of catch up to do for Bitcoin. And I think, I think it has that. I also think a lot of the ETH bulls in this space have some PTSD from the last four years as well.

• 26:25David Hoffman?

  I definitely think I've got some of that.

• 26:26Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, you've been hurt too many times. Yeah. So I totally get it. I think you'll feel a lot better at 5K, David, so.

• 26:35David Hoffman?

  I think you're right.

• 26:36Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 26:39Ryan Sean Adams?

  Let's talk about some other things too, because ETH does have some competitors nipping at its heels here. Solana, the ETF, saw 75 million in inflows in the first week. So remember, we were kind of watching that.

• 26:50David Hoffman?

  Respectable. Well done.

• 26:51Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, it's pretty respectable. So here they are on the charts, 75 million. Eric Balchuna says, "It's all much smaller than Bitcoin or ETH, but there's a lot of green numbers and that's good." So 33 million in a day, that was their biggest day. For context, I think ETH and Bitcoin had a 200 million plus day on the same day. So just like much smaller, but there's only one of them right now. And also, I don't know if you saw this, Bit Mining is converting its holdings to a sole treasury and raising up to 300 million to support a Solana facing focus strategy.

• 27:23David Hoffman?

  All the Bitcoin miner companies are abandoning Bitcoin mining to buy shitcoins, according to shitcoins from the frame reference of Bitcoin. That is so funny, dude.

• 27:33Ryan Sean Adams?

  I know, I know. So that is happening too. So a lot of things going on, David, but what do we got coming up?

• 27:38David Hoffman?

  Coming up next, we're gonna talk about the pump token. Everyone comes to Bankless to get Ryan and David's take on the pump token. We've got all the details. We're gonna talk about what we think about the $4 billion valuation. But just like Ethereum, Pump also has its competitors that are nipping at its heels. And so Bonk is the new pump? Question mark. So we're going to talk about the Bonk metrics that have come to. This is Ryan's favorite subject. You can see it in his face. Bonk, all the Bonk metrics are interfering in pump's market. And then we're also going to talk about the Zelensky suit drama and what it teaches us about prediction market. So we're going to do all of that and more right after we talk to some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible. Like Uniswap, it's a browser wallet, it's a mobile wallet, it's the best place to do DeFi. Let's go here from Uniswap right now.

• 28:23David Hoffman?

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• 29:51David Hoffman?

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• 29:59David Hoffman?

  Pump Fund is launching the ticker PUMP token through an ICO beginning on July 12th. That is this Saturday. On their announcement tweet, they tweeted out, "Our plan is to kill Facebook, TikTok, and Twitch on Solana." So what are the details? 1 trillion tokens. Remember when everyone back in like four years ago was like issuing 1 billion tokens? And I was like, "All right, you guys are really playing into the unit bias thing pretty hard." Well, Pump's coming in hot with 1 trillion tokens.

• 30:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  Of course.

• 30:28David Hoffman?

  24% of the tokens are reserved for the community and ecosystem initiatives. 20% is going to the team, 2.4% ecosystem fund, 2% for foundation, and 13% for existing investors. 3% for live streaming, which I think might be streaming incentives.

• 30:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  I thought ICOs were illegal.

• 30:47David Hoffman?

  Which I'm assuming is quite a lot of the chunk of the $700 million raise that they raised from private investors. And they're also looking to raise even more from the public ICO, which is the thing that I just talked about. $4 billion at the ICO price, all that got filled up in that $700 raise by private investors. All tokens sold will be fully unlocked in 72 hours.

• 31:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  I think you could just ask questions.

• 31:07David Hoffman?

  So if the sale begins on Saturday, we will see the PUMP token trading on Tuesday. I believe that's how that works. How can you buy into the PUMP ICO if you are so interested? If you have an account with BuyBit, KuCoin, Bitget, MCMAX, Kraken, or Gate.io. All of these have partnered with Pump Fund to do their ICO because you need to be KYC'd. Because I could only assume, I doubt, American, United States citizens are going to be allowed into this ICO for probably regulation reasons. And yeah, that could be ready at 2:00 PM on Saturday UTC. I don't know what time zone that is. Figured that out. And those are the details. Ryan, what's the biggest thing that comes to your head when you see all this?

• 31:46Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I guess my first thought is this video itself, the promo video, is absolutely hilarious. It's exactly what it feels like to look at Pump.Fun, at least for me. And I can see the appeal to some people, for sure. Another thing that comes to mind is ICOs again. Like, I don't think any company would dare to do this under the Gensler regime. So the fact that we're doing this maybe means something. I think there's still this like, what is the PUMP token? Does it have utility? Is it a pseudo-equity? Is it...

• 32:18David Hoffman?

  25% of the Pump Fund revenues will go to buy and burn the token.

• 32:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  And that is a good thing, right?

• 32:25David Hoffman?

  Yeah, that's a good thing.

• 32:26Ryan Sean Adams?

  Because it adds value and adds utility and adds revenue share to something. It's not just a meme coin, basically, right? It's some utility.

• 32:33David Hoffman?

  It's not a meme coin.

• 32:34Ryan Sean Adams?

  But like, where do-

• 32:35David Hoffman?

  It's as long as meme coins.

• 32:36Ryan Sean Adams?

  Where does it fit in the whole? Like, we still don't have clarity from the SEC as to where it fits. So, I mean, I guess that's, that's, that's good that they're doing this. I mean, ICOs are better than not having ICOs.

• 32:48David Hoffman?

  I like ICOs. I really like ICOs.

• 32:50Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, it's, uh, I guess the big question for me is like-

• 32:52David Hoffman?

  This sale mechanism, I'm actually quite happy with because people, people are going back and forth. $4 billion, overvalued, undervalued, what are you, and there's no consensus. Which means, I think it's fairly priced.

• 33:04Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, so are you a buyer of 4 billion for, of Pomp?

• 33:08David Hoffman?

  Will I be buying it? No, because I'm lazy. Do I think it will go up? Yes, I think there will be some initial volatility because, like, the seed investors are getting unlocked. So, like, people, investors are unlocked in day one. And there is a lot of people who have made a lot of money. And so there needs to be a pretty solid amount of buying pressure to counteract all of the seed investors who are exiting.

• 33:33Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 33:34David Hoffman?

  And so there's gonna be a lot of volatility inside of, like, the first day. But yeah, I bet you, I would bet it ends the week higher than 4 billion dollars.

• 33:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  I'm not a buyer just because it's not my thing, but like-

• 33:45David Hoffman?

  It's not your thing.

• 33:46Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, it's just not my thing, but that's fine. What do you think of this? So this is one of the founders saying, "Now we're aiming to kill legacy social media platforms with, with Pomp." Right? This is obviously hyperbolic, but do you think there's an element of this is a disruption to Twitch and to, and to Instagram? As they were saying in the initial tweet?

• 34:08David Hoffman?

  Yeah, so he, in his second tweet, Elon says, "Users say are slaves to the algorithm, throttled against monetization and subject to censorship." Buy Pomp and you'll be, come a part of creating this reality." I just skipped a bunch of the middle ground, but he was like, "Yeah, buy Pomp as like a way to like..." If you, buying Pomp is a way to like, signal like, you're opting out of this system and you're gonna opt into new rules. And my mind is like, okay, if you're gonna try and kill TikTok, Facebook, like Twitch, all of these things, like, you're gonna replace them with Pomp. Is that a different algorithm that we were?

• 34:42Ryan Sean Adams?

  Is that better?

• 34:43David Hoffman?

  Is that a new?

• 34:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  Not clearly better to me, but it is different.

• 34:46David Hoffman?

  Not clearly better to me. I'm happy that there's more choice. There's going to be content that's going to be funny and interesting and engaging on the on the Pump streaming platform. Is it allowing people to break free from the shackles of Web 2 algorithms? I don't know that that's what it's going to do.

• 35:02Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, it's definitely a different algorithm. Like, the question is like,

• 35:06David Hoffman?

  That's for sure.

• 35:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  Net, is this good for society or not? Or does this kind of like, you know, foster the continuation of like nihilism, whatever?

• 35:12David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 35:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  Um, you know, I definitely could make the argument that it's just, you know, creating shackles in a new type of algorithm. But

• 35:19David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 35:19Ryan Sean Adams?

  It is different. It's like the existing platforms are not running the, you know, token meme coin price play that Pump is running right now, so it's novel.

• 35:29David Hoffman?

  I think we might have skipped a step in this conversation, which is actually talking about what Pump Fund wants to do for those who haven't been privy to it. They are looking to build a direct Twitch competitor, a streaming platform where your stream is a Pump token. And so there's a chart that goes with the stream. And a lot of the money that they've raised, they're raising like $700 billion, $700 million, is likely going to go to like paying streamers to stream on the platform. This is a normal thing that you do in the Web 2 streaming world. So getting big streamers, streamers like Ninja, the guy that just launched the eTresery company, to come stream on Pump and bring their fanbase on Pump. And so they need a lot of marketing dollars for that because they're trying, they're shooting for home runs. And so gotta give them props for being ambitious.

• 36:12David Hoffman?

  Uh, and so they're just trying to make a streaming platform competitor. And so that's what they need all the money for. I think that's pretty valid. Um, and like, again, I think that there's going to be very hilarious and viral moments that come out of the Pump streaming platform that would have never come out on Twitch, and I'm looking forward to seeing those. Uh, the just positioning that they're trying to take down all of Web 2 with a tokenized streaming platform, that doesn't, I don't, I'm not on that boat.

• 36:39Ryan Sean Adams?

  The other question is, well, how big is the moat for Pump, right? And can it be unseated? There have been some attempts, but actually, like, just this week, there was maybe the most successful attempt yet. Bonk.fun captured 62% of Slana Launchpad revenue, the entire market for these Launchpad-type things. They did that last week.

• 36:59David Hoffman?

  We've never seen Pump Fund's market dominance in token Launchpads this small by comparison. And this is just a very short snapshot in time. Like, overall, Pump dominance has been just gargantuan. But it has been compressed over the last... What candles are these? Like, one-day candles? It has been compressed by Bonk more than it's ever been compressed by anyone before.

• 37:19Ryan Sean Adams?

  So tell me about Bonk, because I haven't really been paying attention to this stuff. So Bonk is a meme coin. I know this. It's a longstanding Slana meme coin, you know, with some legitimacy in the Slanic meme.

• 37:28David Hoffman?

  I don't know if it's that same Bonk.

• 37:31Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay. I assumed it was, but you tell me. And then now they're launching... They're launching a Launchpad, basically.

• 37:38David Hoffman?

  Yeah, I mean, this Launchpad has been around for a while. I don't... Why it's resurging right now, I don't know. I'm on the website, and it looks like a Pump Fund clone.

• 37:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  That matches out our knowledge on meme coin Launchpads, David. So let's turn to the Zelensky suit, okay?

• 37:55David Hoffman?

  Okay, I know a little bit more about this one.

• 37:57Ryan Sean Adams?

  Now, you compared this in the intro to the blue and gold dress. And I think there's a lot of people who maybe don't know what you're talking about. But you're talking about this image, right?

• 38:04David Hoffman?

  Yeah, yeah. What color is that dress?

• 38:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, so this dress is gold, quite clearly, when I look at this dress, but...

• 38:10David Hoffman?

  Yeah, it was white and gold.

• 38:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, white and gold, that's what I see.

• 38:13David Hoffman?

  Yeah, that's what I see, too. Apparently, some people see black and blue.

• 38:16Ryan Sean Adams?

  They see black and blue, okay.

• 38:18David Hoffman?

  And this is like a viral thing that happened like a decade ago or something. It was like, everyone was like, what color is this dress? And there was like the black and blue people, and there was the white and gold people.

• 38:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay.

• 38:28David Hoffman?

  When you look at this picture of Vladimir Zelensky, is that a suit?

• 38:35David Hoffman?

  And there are further pictures. You can keep on scrolling down.

• 38:37Ryan Sean Adams?

  I can keep on scrolling. Okay, the first one, um, second one. Okay. Look at them. It's all black. It's definitely, there's some sort of a suit type of jacket here.

• 38:48David Hoffman?

  He has a lapel. There's lapels there.

• 38:51Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's a collared shirt, some cat.

• 38:52David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 38:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  You know, I think it could pass as like a casual designer type suit. It sort of depends on what you mean by suit, man. I'm not in the fashion industry, so what's a suit?

• 39:02David Hoffman?

  That's a fantastic point, Ryan. It really does depend on what you mean by suit.

• 39:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  Why does this matter? Why are we talking about this week?

• 39:07David Hoffman?

  Uh, because the Polymarket for this, which had some, a number of millions of dollars on riding on this. Because this wasn't really just, you know, gamblers gambling on whether like Zelensky will wear a suit. This is indicative of like, because why won't Zelensky wear a suit? Because he's at war. And so that's what he said. He doesn't wear a suit.

• 39:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  They were betting on whether he would wear a suit or not, right? That was the Polymarket? Well, he'll wear a suit. Well, Zelensky will wear a suit before July is the bet.

• 39:32David Hoffman?

  Yeah, is the bet. And so if the, uh, if the war ended before July, then you would see Zelensky wearing a suit. In theory, this is like how some people have thought. And so it's a proxy market for other larger, more geopolitical things. It's also a proxy market of like, okay, will Zelensky bend the knee to Donald Trump? Because he was made fun of. And so it's not just like, let's roll the dice and see if he's gonna wear a suit. It's a proxy for a bunch of other things.

• 40:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  But he wore this in the month of June.

• 40:03David Hoffman?

  He wore this.

• 40:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  And now there's some dispute as to whether it's a suit or not.

• 40:07David Hoffman?

  Yes. And so the, it settled in the, no, he did not wear a suit. So according to Polymarket, which this went into dispute. And so it was initially, I think it was actually initially saying, yes, he did wear a suit.

• 40:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 40:22David Hoffman?

  One issue with this story was that Zelensky has worn this suit before in a previous polymarket betting market, also already settled no in the past. And so there's already been precedent for this suit is settled as no. A further hiccup is on this polymarket event. There was one of the conditions was credible news sources would report that Zelensky was wearing a suit, which did happen. And so like seven or eight or nine different news companies.

• 40:55Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh, that was the criteria. They listed some criteria and definitions.

• 40:58David Hoffman?

  Yes, and it's still settled to know. Why did it settle to know? Because when polymarket markets go in are in contention and they go into dispute, they go into the UMA court. It's like a court, UMA, universal market access.

• 41:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  UMA, which has a UMA token, right?

• 41:15David Hoffman?

  Very old project, which has its own token. And if you are token holder, then you are the oracle. Basically, you get to vote in the oracle. And so it's ultimately like governed by UMA oracle.

• 41:26Ryan Sean Adams?

  And this backs all polymarket markets, right? UMA protocol?

• 41:29David Hoffman?

  And 99% of the time, it never goes to UMA because they just settle normally without fair and orderly. This one did not. It went to the UMA oracle and they said, no, it's not a suit. Why did they say that? Maybe because the market before this had already settled no and it was the same suit. And so they wanted to keep it continuous. If you are on the, yes, that is a suit, you are very upset. People have been critiquing UMA token holders as being corrupt. I don't, I haven't seen any evidence of corruption.

• 41:59Ryan Sean Adams?

  Subject to bribes, maybe the protocol is corrupt.

• 42:03David Hoffman?

  Yeah. Ultimately, my big takeaway for this, here's my big conclusion, Ryan.

• 42:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 42:08David Hoffman?

  Polymarket and prediction markets generally are set up to collapse in a Schrödinger sense. And so if something has to collapse, like one or two outcomes needs to happen.

• 42:19Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 42:19David Hoffman?

  And in this universe, it's entirely possible that the position does not collapse. Actually, the position stays open. And why was Zelensky wearing this suit? Well, because he was trying to actually split the difference because he, he wanted to like wear a suit. Enough thing to like appease Donald Trump.

• 42:38Ryan Sean Adams?

  Sure.

• 42:39David Hoffman?

  Still appear that he is a military leader who is at war, which is exactly what he did. Which is why there is now a polymarket dispute, which is like, did he wear a suit or did he not? Which means Zelensky did his job of confusing everyone is like, okay, he kind of wore a suit, but he also kind of didn't. And now there's like millions of dollars on the line about who wore the suit or if it was a suit or not.

• 43:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  Isn't this just a hole or a flaw in prediction markets? Like number one, like, couldn't you just argue that you can't have a prediction market with a binary outcome? That collapses if we don't even have social consensus on what a suit what is? Like at the very beginning, when you showed me that I'm like, well, it depends on your definition of a suit. And I don't know, there's not a standard definition of a suit. It's like, it's a fashion statement. Is this art beautiful? Is this person beautiful? It's all subjective, right? So you can't really make, maybe it's the way that the question was asked or the way the market was defined. That's the problem here.

• 43:31David Hoffman?

  I would agree. And yeah, so like, like I think it's really just a quirk of prediction markets.

• 43:38Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 43:38David Hoffman?

  They are expected to collapse and sometimes they don't have to necessarily collapse. And yeah, the way that you phrase the question is very important. How you said the criteria is very important. I don't think polymarkets is at fault at all. I don't really know what's going on behind the scenes at Uma. It's not, the token holders aren't that distributed, but no one really knows. People, again, people are claiming corruption. I don't really think that's, there's any evidence for that.

• 44:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's kind of like buyer, like you have to be careful of what markets you bet on. Like there's another element of this too, which I've always wondered, right? So let's say Zelensky wanted to bet in this market. Okay. So like Zelensky could bet anonymously in this market. He could bet on, yes, I'm going to like, wear a suit. Zelensky is going to wear a suit. And then the next day he could put on a suit and wear it. Like he has some level of control over the outcome of this market. And there's lots of markets like that, right? I don't understand how that even works in a prediction market sense, right? If there's.

• 44:33David Hoffman?

  I think that's a part of the game. I don't think that's within the rules.

• 44:36Ryan Sean Adams?

  So you just like, you just basically know that if you're betting on a market, that there is somebody influential who could just like decide to.

• 44:46David Hoffman?

  Yep.

• 44:46Ryan Sean Adams?

  You know, change the outcome of what happens and win money as a result of that.

• 44:51David Hoffman?

  They are not perfectly orderly because like they're predicting the future, right? Like. It's not going to be perfectly orderly every single time.

• 44:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  There you go. Buyer beware if you look at prediction markets. Dave, we've got a lot more coming up. Phantom Wallet adding hyper liquid perps. People are saying this is a loss for Solana. Definitely seems like a win for hyper liquid. So we'll talk about that. Also, you won a case, a court case against Janet Yellen and the US Treasury.

• 45:14David Hoffman?

  Did I win it? No, the government just gave up.

• 45:16Ryan Sean Adams?

  They lost.

• 45:17David Hoffman?

  Which counts.

• 45:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  I feel like you won by default then. Also, Commissioner Hester Purse, she's raising an eyebrow on these things that people have been calling tokenized stocks. We'll talk about all that and more. But before we do, we want to thank Frax, decentralized, a central bank, some of the best yields in DeFi. It's like Circle, Athena and Maker all had a baby. Fantastic stablecoin here. Let's go hear from Frax right now.

• 45:38David Hoffman?

  In the wild west of DeFi, stability and innovation are everything, which is why you should check out Frax Finance. The protocol revolutionizing stablecoins, DeFi and Rolex. The core of Frax Finance is Frax USD, which is backed by BlackRock's Institutional Biddle Fund. Frax designed Frax USD for besting class yields across DeFi, T-bills and carry trade returns all in one. Just head to frax.com, then stake it to earn some of the best yields in DeFi. Want even more? Bridge your Frax USD over to the Fraxl Layer 2 for the same yield plus Fraxl points and explore Fraxl's diverse Layer 2 ecosystem with protocols like Curve, Convex and more, all rewarding early adopters. Frax isn't just a protocol. It's a digital nation powered by the FXX token and governed by its global community. Acquire FXX through frax.com or your go-to Dex.

• 46:23David Hoffman?

  Stake it and help shape Frax Nation's future. Ready to join the forefront of DeFi? Visit frax.com now to start earning with Frax USD and staked Frax USD. And for Bankless listeners, you can use frax.com/r/bankless when bridging to Fraxl for exclusive Fraxl perks and boosted rewards. Imagine if your checking account and DeFi wallet finally spoke the same language. That's Mantle Banking, an all-in-one fiat and crypto account. It lets you save, spend and invest all from one dashboard. Swipe for coffee, stake ME3 yield, or even use virtual cards for payments through Apple Pay. So it feels web 2 simple, yet stays web 3 sovereign. For allocators, meet Mantle Index 4, the S&P 500 of crypto. A tokenized institutional-grade fund seeded with $400 million from the Mantle Treasury and balanced across Bitcoin Ether Sol and yield-enhanced stables.

• 47:08David Hoffman?

  One asset, broad exposure, pure DeFi composability. The momentum is real. ME faults, FBTC bridges, and a $2.4 billion community treasury are all powering the next phase of on-chain finance. Mantle brings real-world access, yield, and utility to digital assets. Ready for the next era of on-chain finance that actually belongs in 2025? Explore Mantle at mantle.xyz or follow mantleofficial. Mantle: Bridging TradFi and DeFi, so you don't have to. Phantom Wallet has added HyperLiquid perps into its wallet. So if you are now a user of Phantom, you can just go and get a perp done right inside of the wallet and never have to leave. They wrote, "Phantom's intuitive and mobile-first design will allow you to easily open, close, and manage positions directly within your wallet. No extra apps, no confusing interfaces,

• 47:53David Hoffman?

  and no compromises on speed, control, and performance. 100 markets, 40x leverage powered by HyperLiquid." HyperLiquid, Ryan, has, I know, I'm gonna guess, you have not bridged to HyperLiquid.

• 48:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  I have not bridged to HyperLiquid, though. It is pretty cool. It's very exciting to see, like, perps in a, you know, more open-finance-type way.

• 48:10David Hoffman?

  The bridging to HyperLiquid has always been probably the big bottleneck for getting to HyperLiquid, because you gotta go to Arbitrum, and then you gotta bridge over, and apparently it's not very easy. I have also not bridged over to HyperLiquid, because neither of us are traders. The fact that they are now in Phantom Wallet, the mobile wallet on your phone,

• 48:28Ryan Sean Adams?

  Super easy, right?

• 48:29David Hoffman?

  is a pretty, pretty big deal for HyperLiquid.

• 48:31Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah. And one thing that's notable here is that Phantom is integrating HyperLiquid, right? So some in the Solana community are saying Phantom could have chosen Jupiter Exchange as the perps provider. It's a Solana-native project, $1.4 billion. Remember that, like, you know, Phantom is kind of like Solana's wallet. It sort of grew up in that space. I know it's multi-chain now, supports Ethereum, supports all sorts of Layer 2s, but, you know, I think many in Solana- Yeah, okay. So many in Solana.

• 48:57David Hoffman?

  Oh, and Polygon?

• 48:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  I think so. I think a number of them. But and many, many in the Solana community have always thought of Phantom as kind of their chain. And the fact that they're going to Hyperliquid instead of Jupiter, some of the Solana community are saying, "Well, this seems like a loss for like for Solana." And I don't think they're wrong about that, but yeah. I also think that, of course, this is what Phantom was going to do. I mean, this is an interesting thing where it sort of puts successful wallets in kind of the super app type category. Right? They are the user aggregator and they can just pick the best chain of all of the chains to do the functions that their users want to do. And so like, why should they only do things on one chain and have chain loyalty from this perspective? They're just going to integrate whatever they want.

• 49:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  And they're in a great position here with these like app-specific chains that are doing one thing and doing it really well in that they can kind of direct traffic and their users wherever they want.

• 49:52David Hoffman?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Those are all my takes as well. Phantom has just done an incredible job slowly building out the right features in the right time and just adding Hyperliquid. It just makes a ton of sense.

• 50:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  This is Umar Roy saying, "This Phantom and Hyperliquid integration is bullish for Phantom, bullish for Hyperliquid, bearish for Solana," was her take on this. So yeah. What do you think of the hype token, by the way? Do you, uh, you a buyer?

• 50:17David Hoffman?

  Um, I could be. I've thought about it at times.

• 50:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  12 billion or so, 13 billion, throwing off a lot of cash.

• 50:24David Hoffman?

  It's only 12? I feel like, I feel like it should be higher than that. Uh, 14.3, 14.3.

• 50:30Ryan Sean Adams?

  So compare it to like Robinhood or something like that. It's got some perps, right? You know?

• 50:35David Hoffman?

  Well, Robinhood's at $85 billion.

• 50:37Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 50:38David Hoffman?

  So Robinhood is very rich.

• 50:39Ryan Sean Adams?

  Brimmed to grow, right?

• 50:39David Hoffman?

  Fully diluted. Maybe I'm a boomer for thinking fully diluted. Forty diluted of $43 billion.

• 50:45Ryan Sean Adams?

  Ooh.

• 50:46David Hoffman?

  So, yeah, so half of a Solana.

• 50:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, some big unlocks coming, some big unlocks. That's why I've always stopped like from doing it. It's just, I'm always like, unlocks, like the, you know? But that's probably a dumb take.

• 50:58David Hoffman?

  I just think of, um, Hyperliquid is just like, it's just the next generation version of BitMEX. And BitMEX was huge. And why did BitMEX get taken down? Well, because it was centralized and a bunch of other reasons.

• 51:12David Hoffman?

  And so like, yeah, like Hyperliquid likely has a permanent fixture in the crypto world just because perps do. But I don't know if I have edge there buying hype. And so, you know? Stick to what you know.

• 51:25Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, well, one thing you know is how to beat the US government in your court cases, David, because you had a win this week, all right? This is the official news. The US Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit Court officially ended the legal fight over US Treasury sanctions against tornado cash. Of course, there's still the Roman storm trials that are happening. I think they're maybe happening next week, actually, Dave, so we've got to cover that. It's coming right up. But there was also some court battles between whether users actually had the right and ability to use tornado cash. And you were a plaintiff in this case, actually. Give us some details. What is this case? What happened here?

• 52:01David Hoffman?

  Yeah, and take us all the way back in time. Right after OFAC put tornado cash contract addresses on the OFAC list, meaning that if you use it, that's a felony, so you can't use it. A bunch of people in the Ethereum ecosystem got dusted. So somebody else sent .1 ETH outbound to, like, you got dusted, I got dusted, Shaquille O'Neal got dusted. And so technically, since we touched the contracts, we were all in violation of the OFAC sanctions list.

• 52:32Ryan Sean Adams?

  The contracts touched us in a way, but that's still...

• 52:35David Hoffman?

  They touched us. I didn't go to the contracts, but it doesn't really matter because my address is now linked to, like, David Hoffmann's ETH address was linked to tornado cash. So I had to go. It pissed me off because when I go and talked to lawyers, they were like, "Oh, yeah, you just violated OFAC." I'm like, "I just did nothing, though. I didn't do anything, I set my hands." And they said, like, "Yeah, you need to go fill out this form now." And so, like, I have to go fill out a form? Like, I do this one time a year. When I file my taxes, it's the only time I'm ever compelled to do anything. Now I have to be compelled a second time to do this? Pissed me off.

• 53:09Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, so it was the documents that pissed you off? It wasn't about protecting American privacy?

• 53:13David Hoffman?

  It was the fact that I was compelled to do something. It was they forced me to do something, or apparently I'm going to be a felon, I'm going to have to go to jail because somebody sent me .1 ETH on...

• 53:21Ryan Sean Adams?

  Insane, right?

• 53:22David Hoffman?

  Absolutely insane. Violation of my freedoms.

• 53:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  Sure.

• 53:24David Hoffman?

  And so Coin Center reached out to me, and they were like, "Hey, if you would like to be a plaintiff in this case, we will go sue Janet Yellen." And I am like, "Fuck, yes. Let's do this." Really, that's about as much involvement in this case that I've had. They update me every now and then.

• 53:42Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, this is the latest update.

• 53:44David Hoffman?

  This is the latest update, and this is the latest update. There will be no more updates because this is the end.

• 53:48Ryan Sean Adams?

  The US government was just like, we dropped the case. Which is an admission that you were right. So you didn't technically win, you didn't lose, but I think that means you won by default. They gave up.

• 53:58David Hoffman?

  I won by default. So I was right in my curmudgeon-ness of being compelled to file documents because Tornado Cash is technology, it is not illegal. You cannot make a smart contract illegal. And that is the precedent that has been established by this case.

• 54:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh, well, well done, David.

• 54:13David Hoffman?

  Huge tip of the hat to all the Coin Center people for actually doing all of the hard work. I just got dusted.

• 54:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, and now Tornado Cash is no longer on the OFAC sanction list. I believe that was removed under the new administration. There's still a court case to win, which is the Roman Storm court case.

• 54:26David Hoffman?

  Yes.

• 54:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  I think he almost has all of them.

• 54:29David Hoffman?

  It would be such a tragedy if we got the access to Tornado Cash and we set the precedent that smart contracts cannot be illegal and Roman Storm still went to jail. That would be a huge tragedy.

• 54:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, you can still give to that. By the way, look, man, he almost raised all of his support here. He's at 92%, which is awesome, but you can still donate to that cause and help Roman Storm with his legal defenses there. David, let's pivot the conversation. Some Layer Ones are making moves. It's a kind of a different environment than the environment we grew up with, with respect to foundations. So this is Breaking Bullish, which is a crypto exchange, is going all in on Solana. This is the Solana account tweeting this. The crypto exchange with 1.4 trillion in trading volume is migrating their core infrastructure to Solana native stablecoins to power custody, payments, trading and settlement. You really get the sense that the Solana Foundation is heavy on the BD side of things, right? They're trying to make deals happen. They're actively engaging.

• 55:26Ryan Sean Adams?

  This is something that the Ethereum Foundation doesn't do at all. It's just like not in their DNA, not in their ethos to do. And it's not just Solana. It's like, here's Monet. So this is a Layer One that hasn't yet launched. It's going to be like an EVM Layer One that we're going to launch. It's coming very soon. It's been coming soon for a while, but yeah, it's coming soon.

• 55:45David Hoffman?

  It's coming soon. It's coming soon.

• 55:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  David maybe knows. Okay, so they just, the Monad Foundation, just acquired a stablecoin infrastructure company called Portal. And this is even more of an escalation. It's not just BD. We're actually doing acquisitions at the foundation level, right?

• 56:01David Hoffman?

  And they're enshrining a stablecoin? Oh, not enshrining, but they're gonna have like a Monad-flavored stablecoin on Monad chain at block number one, I think.

• 56:09Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 56:10David Hoffman?

  I mean, it makes sense in this day and age, because you need to have apps on your chain. You can't just have chains in this day and age.

• 56:16Ryan Sean Adams?

  What does this make you think of, though? This is like, kind of operating much more like a company than, you know, the foundations of years past have been.

• 56:23David Hoffman?

  That's how I think of Solana.

• 56:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  As a fintech company?

• 56:25David Hoffman?

  I consider Solana to be a company, yeah.

• 56:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  A fintech company with a protocol, would you say? Or do you think the protocol is like, part of the company and it's all just like fintech?

• 56:33David Hoffman?

  Yeah, blurry lines.

• 56:34Ryan Sean Adams?

  I sort of think the same with Monad as well.

• 56:37David Hoffman?

  Yeah, I think, well, I think that the grand trend shift, starting from Bitcoin, you can, like, and Bitcoiners will point to Ethereum, be like, Ethereum the company. And then Ethereum will look at Solana.

• 56:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  Not even close.

• 56:50David Hoffman?

  But comparison to Bitcoin, right? Like, Ethereum does grants, you know, Ethereum did a grant to Uniswap. Now Uniswap is a huge institution on Ethereum. So you can see some of the patterns.

• 57:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  There's a spectrum here.

• 57:02David Hoffman?

  There's a spectrum, yeah. Then Ethereum looks at Solana and be like, that's a company.

• 57:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 57:05David Hoffman?

  And then Solana's gonna look at Monad and be like, well, that's a company. And I'm on the Ethereum side, where Ethereum's not a company, but everything downstream of Ethereum is definitely a company.

• 57:15Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think well put. Like, my comment is, I didn't know foundations could do that. I guess they're doing that now, so.

• 57:22David Hoffman?

  You kind of have to do that in 2025.

• 57:24Ryan Sean Adams?

  I guess so. If you're new and starting in 2022, this is kind of cool. This is something I'll always appreciate about the Bitcoin ecosystem and Bitcoiners, is the lengths that they go to, to make sure you can, like, do niche cases on Bitcoin. This is Jack Dorsey introducing a decentralized messaging service and Bitcoin transfer service, not using cell towers, not using an internet connection, but just using Bluetooth. Okay, this is an open source app that he built, so that if I'm near you, I can, you know, send you some Bitcoin. Via Bluetooth. Now, in that you're like, how does that work? Because obviously it has to connect to a node and settle on the internet. It does, like peer to peer, kind of in the background and sync sort of later.

• 58:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  But there's some way to get like some instant confirmation type or some fast confirmation type guarantees. If I just want to send you Bluetooth from from my phone to yours without an internet connection. Kind of cool, right?

• 58:20David Hoffman?

  Yeah, in a science experiment kind of way.

• 58:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  In an end of the world type way, too. You know, the cell towers are down. All we got left is Bluetooth and, you know.

• 58:29David Hoffman?

  No, I don't think it's a cell towers down kind of thing. I think it's a authoritarian government kind of thing.

• 58:34Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I think it's sad, too.

• 58:35David Hoffman?

  Censoring your Bitcoin.

• 58:37Ryan Sean Adams?

  Anyway, I love that Bitcoiners do that. It's fantastic. David.

• 58:41David Hoffman?

  Fantastic ROI on some of those.

• 58:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  We should. We should do a tokenized stock check in. So did you see this this week? Robinhood is engaging the regulators over tokenized equity. So regulators in the EU were saying, hey, this whole private shares thing like OpenAI. What are you guys doing here? Is this even legal and giving them some grief? So I guess, is that expected? Wait, what do you think of this?

• 59:04David Hoffman?

  Kind of makes me bullish Vlad.

• 59:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  Makes you bullish Vlad that he's like pushing the envelope?

• 59:10David Hoffman?

  Yeah, that's what it takes.

• 59:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 59:14David Hoffman?

  There's a tweet that I really like from my friend Austin, who works at Dragonfly. I hope he has it pinned. He tweeted out something along the lines of, no, he doesn't have it pinned. He tweeted out something on the lines of like, all good things on blockchains are all slightly illegal. Nice. I like that.

• 59:31Ryan Sean Adams?

  Just touching on illegal. Well, this was.

• 59:35David Hoffman?

  Here's what he says. Most successful crypto products start off as kind of illegal. From Coinbase to Circle to Polymarket to Uniswap to Hyperliquid. If no one thinks the product is a little illegal, it's probably not that interesting. This is only natural. Crypto exists to skirts around incumbent power structures. If the product can succeed within those structures, then it doesn't belong on chain anyway. Obviously, building in good faith alongside counsel is necessary. But respectfully, don't ask for permission to build something people want. Like, and I'm like, yeah, vibes, dude. Like, let's go back to like early, early crypto.

• 1:00:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  I largely agree with that, except I would say there's an important axis to look at, which is like whether the product is actually good or not and does what it says it will do, right? And Robin Hood aside, so I had a conversation, I know you couldn't make this one because of your internet, but the podcast getting released with the guy, a tokenized stock company called Dinari, this is Gabriel Ott, and his take was basically like, you know, the things floating around in X stocks, those are just like not good products, okay? They're trading at massive deltas to the actual product that you're buying. So if you buy Apple in X stock format, that price could be, you're totally out of whack with

• 1:00:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  the Apple on an exchange. It's not one for one backed, right? And like, if we're going to do the whole tokenized security thing, let's make sure we don't take shortcuts and we do it right. It's kind of like, if we're gonna do the stablecoin thing, let's not do a Terra Luna like debacle that's gonna screw everyone over. Let's do something that actually works, like a make or die, or you know, something like Circle or Tether. And so his take was basically like, X stocks are just, they're just not good products and they're probably illegal. And there are ways to do this, so you get fully DTC settled.

• 1:01:23David Hoffman?

  Stocks without KYC, definitely illegal.

• 1:01:25Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, one thing about some of these instruments, Hester Purse was actually weighing in. And you know, Hester's like, she is a crypto advocate. She's, she knows the technology. She is very rational. She wants to support free and open capital markets. But even she was raising some eyebrows, and you could tell it. So she published this speech, it's a very short speech by Hester Purse standards. But basically, I'm gonna give you the paraphrase, because I feel like by now I can speak a little Hester Purse. She's basically saying like, be careful making these Liechtenstein domicile SPV stock IOUs your tokenized stock thing. She's basically saying, because this is illegal, probably, and could be kind

• 1:02:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  of a bad thing for capital markets and for protecting investors. And before I bring the hammer down on you guys, you should probably come in and check with us. We really want to make tokenized stocks work for crypto. But some of these instruments are not the way to do it. And she wasn't talking necessarily about X stocks, but I kind of feel like she also was. Anyway, that's my paraphrased interpretation. And it was pretty much validated by conversation I had with Gabriel Ott that's coming out on Monday. All about tokenized stocks and kind of what they are and like what they should be.

• 1:02:43David Hoffman?

  Yeah, I'm pretty excited for that episode. You were telling me it's a pretty good download on like how a stock becomes a stock. And then how a stock becomes a token. Out on Monday. So yeah, I'm going to listen to that one when that comes out. I think when like tokenized stocks or like pseudo tokenized stocks is probably what these actually are. When they first come, they're just destined to be bad products because we can't have the real thing. Cause like you have to have a workaround. That workaround is going to be janky. We are seeing the first generations, generation zero of tokenized stocks right now. They all kind of suck. And really in order for them to be good. There needs to be a clear path that the SEC needs to make and bless as saying like. Anyone can do this path and you can have a legitimate compliant tokenized stock.

• 1:03:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  This is what's so cool about the Gabriel conversation. He's like, we have that basically. So Robin Hood is actually doing that apparently in the EU.

• 1:03:34David Hoffman?

  Oh, really?

• 1:03:34Ryan Sean Adams?

  He's like, he's like X stocks. I don't know what that is, but Robin Hood is doing it the right way. And by the way, probably by the end of the year, we'll have it done in the right way in the US too. And it'll be regulated. It'll be like one to one back. End of the year, dude. Okay. Because and they have their broker dealer license with a checkbox for tokenized stocks. And they're like, we're meeting with the SEC. Like we've shown them demos. They like it. They're going to bless it. Like this is all going to happen. I'm just saying like right now in the summer, some of these products aren't so great. But it's coming pretty soon. Anyway, that's the episode on Monday and you gotta listen to it. It was a great conversation.

• 1:04:10David Hoffman?

  Wow. I'm so bullish.

• 1:04:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:13David Hoffman?

  Robin Hood tokenized docs. Are you serious?

• 1:04:16Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:04:16David Hoffman?

  What a killer product.

• 1:04:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's pretty great. We've come a long way, Dave. We've come a long way. All right. Risks and disclaimers, guys, you know, none of this has been financial advice. Crypto is risky. You lose what you put in, but we are headed west. This is the frontier, not for everyone, but we're glad you're with us on the Bangless journey. Thanks a lot.