192: A Conversation with Ken Burns and Sarah Botstein: The American Revolution and WWII

Professor Greg Jackson sits down with legendary documentary filmmaker Ken Burns and his co-producer Sarah Botstein to discuss their newest film series, The American Revolution https://www.pbs.org/kenburns/the-american-revolution plus a conversation about their 2007 WWII series, The War. https://www.pbs.org/kenburns/the-war/ Ken and Sarah’s latest endeavor about the American War for Independence has been in production for nearly a decade, and the release comes on the cusp of America’s 250th anniversary. According to Ken, the American Revolution is “the most important historical event since the birth of Christ.” We’ll let you judge that claim for yourself as you listen to Dr. Jackson and our two guests discuss the war and its major players, their production process, maps, and much more. Ken and Sarah also discuss The War which they worked on together delving into “the greatest cataclysm in human history,” to quote Ken—World War II. If America was “born” after the Revolutionary War, it came of age during the Second World War. Don’t fret, we’ll get back to covering that war very soon. Next up: Japan. The American Revolution, a six-part, 12-hour documentary series, will premiere on Sunday, November 16 and air each night through Friday, November 21st. ____ Connect with us on ⁠HTDSpodcast.com⁠ https://www.htdspodcast.com/ and go deep into ⁠episode bibliographies⁠ https://www.htdspodcast.com/bibliography and ⁠book recommendations⁠ https://www.htdspodcast.com/book-recommendations join discussions in our ⁠Facebook community⁠ https://www.facebook.com/groups/257926761619618/ get news and discounts from ⁠The HTDS Gazette⁠ https://www.htdspodcast.com/newsletters-1 come ⁠see a live show⁠ https://www.htdspodcast.com/tour get ⁠HTDS merch⁠ https://htds-team-shop.fourthwall.com/ or become an ⁠HTDS premium⁠ https://htds.supercast.com/ member for bonus episodes and other perks.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:08Greg Jackson?

  Hello, my friends. This is Professor Greg Jackson, and welcome to a special episode of History That Doesn't Suck. We're going to return to our narrative episodes of World War II soon, continuing toward the United States' official entry into the fight on that "date which will live in infamy," to quote FDR. But today, I'm sharing with you my conversation with documentary filmmaker Ken Burns and his co-producer Sarah Botstein about their latest film, The American Revolution. I'm confident that none of you listening today need an introduction as to who Ken is and the importance of his contribution to the telling of American history. But you may not know that Sarah has been a longtime collaborator with Ken on such films as The U.S. and the Holocaust, The Vietnam War, Prohibition, Jazz, The Wars,

• 0:51Greg Jackson?

  and others. I got to attend a luncheon and screening of this new film with Ken and Sarah in Newark, New Jersey, and I was proud to host a community screening in Salt Lake City for PBS Utah. So I've had the privilege of seeing the work in advance, and no surprise, it's excellent. A+. And so I was grateful for the opportunity to speak with both Ken and Sarah about the American Revolution, but also their World War II docu-series, The War. As you'll hear, we discussed the continued relevance and benefit of studying those two events, two of the most important events in American history. But first, a few quick reminders of what you can find on our website, htdspodcast.com. First, tour dates, where you can come see me storytelling onstage with live music and

• 1:35Greg Jackson?

  video. I hope I'm passing by somewhere near you soon, and that you'll come out for a great night with your family, friends, and neighbors. Second, the HTDS membership program. HTDS will always be widely available, supported by ads. However, our membership program offers ad-free episodes delivered early, plus extra stories and deep dives. For example, right now you can listen to an extra story narrated by me about the birth of the United States' Marine Corps, which celebrates its 250th birthday, November 10, 2025. Access that and other exclusive stories by visiting htdspodcast.com/membership, or clicking the link in the episode notes to start a free seven-day trial. And now, Ken Burns and Sarah Botstein.

• 2:21Greg Jackson?

  Ken, you said during the screening of the new film in Newark, New Jersey, that, and I'm quoting you, "The American Revolution is the most important historical event since the birth of Jesus." You were speaking about the event itself, of course, not the film, but did I quote you correctly?

• 2:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I said the birth of Christ. I did it somewhere along the road. I started saying it, I think, not as a provocation, but as a way to sort of sponsor people to think about world history and to offer. And so it's actually sponsored some pretty good conversations, the most recent of which was a French woman who, unremarkably, suggested the other night in Providence that it was the French Revolution that was much more significant than the American Revolution. But I love to have that sense. I do think that the Old Testament says that there's nothing new under the sun, and on

• 3:19Speaker 01

  July 4th, 1776, I think there was something brand new under the sun, at least for a moment, and that was the creation of the United States. People had been, for the most part, subjects before that. Now they were citizens with all of the responsibilities and the complexities of trying to manage what would turn out to be a democratic institution. And I think it's sort of good to take stock. The revolution recedes in our understanding because there are no photographs, there's no newsreels, it's sort of smothered, gallant, bloodless myth, and it seems to be just for most people about guys in Philadelphia thinking great thoughts, which is, of course, the main story. But there's so much more to it.

• 4:01Speaker 01

  It is a really long, bloody revolution, and a civil war, and a world war. And it was sort of important for us to sort of try to gather up all the threads in the film that's taken us nearly a decade to make, and to spend these last months sort of talking all around the country about it. And one way to sort of signal that you wish to get somebody's attention is to say something like that, which I believe, and I'm perfectly willing to defend. I didn't say it in a Madison Avenue fashion. I said it in a way, hoping to draw people into sort of thoughtful and meaningful conversations.

• 4:35Greg Jackson?

  Well, Ken, I want to say it resonated with me, as you said. I certainly didn't take it as a provocation. I see the validity in both. The modality in which you said that and the overall expression. I do love to tease my French friends when they make that same sort of assertion that it's great to have Montesquieu, but you gotta act on the ideas. Sorry, guys. So you're late for the party.

• 4:56Speaker 01

  And they lost their heads. Right. Yeah.

• 4:58Greg Jackson?

  That they did. Let's build on a point that you did just made. One thing I always like to say when teaching or storytelling about the revolution is that it began as a civil war. Yes, the Continental Congress ultimately declared that they were fighting for independence from the British Empire, but not all the colonists agreed with that notion initially. And of course, they didn't necessarily agree on what the United States meant. Your film underscores all this. In fact, you've said that the extent was far more than you previously appreciated. How so? Where does that take your mind?

• 5:33Speaker 01

  Well, I think like most people, you think that you've had. I mean, we've passed through the revolution and biographies of Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin and other films. But until you get into it in a granular fashion, you don't really know all of the ins and outs. And I think I suffer, as everyone else does, by this notion that it's essentially big ideas in Philadelphia and that maybe things begin with Lexington and Concord and then move to Yorktown and Boomtown, when it in fact is this incredibly long six and a half bloody years. And then, as you say, a good portion of the populace is against it. We have in our first episode two Anglican, I believe, ministers who are looking, you know, at some of the demonstrations and say, who do you want to be ruled by?

• 6:18Speaker 01

  A tyrant, one tyrant, 3,000 miles away, or 3,000 tyrants not a mile away? And there are, for many people, quite understandably, the British constitutional monarchy is the source of their good fortune, their wealth, their prosperity, their literacy, their health, the land that they own, and they see no reason to change. The British constitutional monarchy is the best form of government on earth at that moment. And, you know, to throw that away for this radical idea seems kind of crazy. And so what you have almost from the very beginning is a civil war going on first with During the resistance movement where there's incredible harassment of people with loyalist tendencies,

• 6:59Speaker 01

  the opening of their mail, their ostracization, once they declare their affectations, the threats, the violence, some flee to Canada even before the revolution begins. And I think it's really important as filmmakers, we made the decision early on, not just on this film, but on every film, to call balls and strikes. So we don't make the loyalists wrong. We just say, this is, this is what happens and sort of look at it with a clear eye and, and understand and follow a loyalist through the whole process and meet many other loyalists and the frustrations and the anxieties and, and those who end up staying and sort of blending in and trying not to make too much of a mess and those who end up refusing

• 7:40Speaker 01

  and going to Nova Scotia, going to the Caribbean, to New Brunswick, wherever it might be.

• 7:45Greg Jackson?

  I think that's so crucial. If we're going to avoid falling into a simple two dimensional good guy, bad guy, which that's just not history. It, it doesn't matter what even we're talking about.

• 7:56Speaker 01

  Those, those binaries don't exist.

• 7:57Greg Jackson?

  Exactly.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  And the complications and the undertows are endemic to every human situation and, and it's important to represent them. And of course, this isn't just a tension between loyalists and patriots, but the between assimilated and coexisting Native Americans, uh, superimposed under the 13 colonies, those nations to the West, which are as independent and distinct as, say, France is from Prussia and have been on the world scene, trading and involved in diplomacy for centuries. And the 500,000 free and enslaved African Americans, women, who, who are never sort of given a proper kind of role in the history of, of the revolution. And all the diverse other states, particularly in Europe, particularly France,

• 8:41Speaker 01

  but also Spain and the Netherlands, who become embroiled in what is not just a revolution and not just a civil war, but the fourth, probably fourth world war over the prize of North America. That's a pretty good story to try to, you know, bite off and chew.

• 8:58Greg Jackson?

  No, it is, and it can be daunting and it's also so rewarding. And I think that's part of what makes it so fascinating and interesting as you're, I mean, there are just so many lines to follow. And the glimpse I got to enjoy at that viewing in New Jersey, I feel like you did such a wonderful job weaving in all of that tapestry.

• 9:17Speaker 02

  I was just gonna say one thing that I was just thinking about while Ken was talking and to your question about the Civil War, that has become, I think, more essential for us to talk about when we're talking about the film and we're talking about the Civil War aspect of it, and we're talking about the Civil War nature when it comes to families, communities, whole, you know, groups of people, that it is brother against brother, community against community, neighbor against neighbor. But also, you know, one of the things that really pushes the colonists early is when there's a standing army in their own city. And I think that that piece of the pre-revolution story is resonating in a very interesting way right now, but also has extreme importance when we talk about

• 10:03Speaker 02

  the causes leaning up to the rebels really getting their sea legs in Boston. And when you have an army policing your own citizens, what does that mean? And what does that sort of inspire and evoke in your in your populations?

• 10:18Greg Jackson?

  You know, Samuel Adams, and of course, these are calling well after the fact. So how much this is, you know, our memories change, right? And we, the story we tell even about ourselves, that's something that you encounter with historical documents. But Sam Adams, later down the road, he claims that it was the occupation in Boston. That was when he felt independence needed to happen. Now, no one else, you know, talks about that for, for years. Yeah, we got that.

• 10:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. And how are you gonna get 13 clocks to strike at the same time?

• 10:50Greg Jackson?

  Exactly. But I think it's interesting, Sarah, to your point, that even if Sam is after the fact, kind of, you know, reinventing himself, sorry, that's my critical historian mind, having to question even what people say about their own narratives. But, you know, to say that when Red coats are marching down the wharf as they enter his city as they come into Boston the city of only you know and think about the proportions too right there are only 15,000 Bostonians in the 1760s and 2000 troops just showed up I mean that's enormous

• 11:25Speaker 01

  oh I think I think it's huge you're absolutely right and and and any point you know you can say well begins at Lexington and conquered we just came from Rhode Island where there's certain it's the gas bay you know and it's it's December of 73 and it's the Boston Tea Party you can back it up and say no it's the it's the massacre in in March of 70 no it's the standing troops no it's the Quebec Act you know which which gives the Catholic French speaking territories that British control much more control of their destiny and of parts of the land that the Americans have no it's a 1763 you can't cross the Appalachians to get land angering the big speculators like

• 12:08Speaker 01

  Washington and Franklin but also the small farmers who want to go and grab a piece of that land so you know you're right you pass the test in in in eighth grade if you say taxes and representation but you also have all sorts of usurpations as as Thomas Jefferson would say having to do with Native American land having to do with standing troops having to do with sort of restrictions on a way of life that had been relatively laissez faire someone in in Parliament I think referred to they they dealt with North American subjects with salutary neglect and we liked it that way and when whenever it tightened for a variety of reasons the Empire's

• 12:48Speaker 01

  out of money needs help in paying for the protection all of that sort of stuff leads to this sort of escalating series of events the most important thing is it happened right

• 13:03Greg Jackson?

  Let me take a slightly different direction at this point, if I may. There are six chapters in the new film, and every chapter, I noticed, is titled with quotes from Thomas Paine. What's the significance of that choice?

• 13:15Speaker 01

  Well, it's one of these things that you don't go in in advance as if it's a mental thunderbolt that you're gonna do. It's something that happens along the way. You struggle to find a title for each episode as you're working on any film. It's always been our case. And you find something that resonates with that. And what was really clear, once we figured out what our first episode would be in order to be free from the opening quote, it then was like, we should make Thomas Paine all of it. And then it was very clear that episode two, which is about the writing, it culminates in the Declaration of Independence, could be called "An Asylum for Mankind," a quote from Common Sense. And of course, episode three, when it's really dark and Washington's retreating across New

• 13:59Speaker 01

  Jersey and finally makes a comeback across Delaware on the day after Christmas to do the famous seizing of the garrison manned by Hessians, that these are the times that triumph in soul. And then after that, when we realized how well it fit in, it was just trying to find that Paine quote that would help us understand the episode. Conquer by a drawn game is our fourth, the soul of all America, and the most sacred thing, the most sacred thing being to Thomas Paine, the Union.

• 14:26Greg Jackson?

  Sure. And I don't know if that's a little Freudian slip to throw Twain in with Paine there.

• 14:30Speaker 01

  Well, you know, when I am quoting Mark Twain every single day of my life, because as he said, you know, I think, and people have said of him, he never wrote a bad sentence. So, you know, Twain has a huge, rents huge, huge space in my brain.

• 14:46Greg Jackson?

  Oh, as he should. That should be the case for everyone. I hear you on that. He makes an outsized number of appearances in my book that I'm working on right now, to my surprise. Well, and I will add on Paine. I think he's brilliant. I wish he and George Washington had a better relationship there at the end. That's my only, my only struggle with the guy. My conversation with Ken and Sarah continues in a moment, where we geek out on maps, including World War II maps, because later, we jump from the revolution to World War II and their 2007 docu-series, The War.

• 15:29Greg Jackson?

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• 16:13Greg Jackson?

  And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at indeed.com/podcast. Just go to indeed.com/podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com/podcast. Need to hire? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.

• 16:41Greg Jackson?

  Can we talk about the maps that you have in this? I mean, you've always had an incredible touch for decades in your depictions on the screen, of course. But I was really impressed with the simplicity and the brilliance of, particularly my mind's going to the Battle of Trenton, which we viewed there in New Jersey. Appropriately, of course, I can see why you selected it. But how would you say your depiction of maps, of scenes? I mean, you've done this in so many films, Civil War and so on. How has this evolved? What's different about this time versus previous? Or what's the same? Tell me about that, the art.

• 17:23Speaker 02

  I'll take it and then Ken will make sure I don't leave anything out. So I've worked on three of the big war films with Ken. And when we were finishing Vietnam and a scene, I think in our third episode with the Idrang Valley, there's an incredible map that we had built.

• 17:39Speaker 02

  Ken, I think I'm speaking for you as if you're not here, but was inspired in part that we could take on the revolution because of the way that map put him in a place in a battle without traditional archives. And in every film that is about a war, he's been brilliant in how we use maps. And we did maps in World War II, just to nerd out on this for a second. World War II has incredible maps, the Military Academy at West Point. And they show in these interesting illustrations, army movements and why in the Pacific and in Europe. And we took those books and we built incredible, that was 25 years ago, maps based on those books.

• 18:20Speaker 02

  And then in Vietnam, we did another version of that where we started to play around with topography and kind of Google Earth, as well as the traditional flat military maps to help people like me understand how troops are moving and why and what that means in a very kind of elemental way, but also very beautiful and archival and visually exciting. And so revolution, we actually do that in three, maybe four different ways, but really three ways. And the first is when you're looking at documentary evidence from the American Revolution and things that actually exist and were made at the time and are contemporaneous to the history we're telling, one of the things you have is an incredible archive of

• 19:02Speaker 02

  maps. And those maps were made by everyone. The French made maps, the Brits made maps, we made maps. And the maps are sometimes incredibly beautiful, intricate illustrations of battles. You see soldiers and cannons and guns, and you see kind of the military hope, the plan, and then what happens. And that's one whole class of maps. Then there are maps that are more politically aspirational, as Bangy Black Hawk explains in the film. They're showing the colonies moving way west before it was reasonable to move west because they were kind of aspirational and political. And then you have, you know... Different countries drawing maps for different reasons.

• 19:47Speaker 02

  Again, sometimes military, sometimes political. And obviously, the geography and the topography of North America is incredibly daunting to anyone trying to figure out how to fight a war. So we brought all that archival material in and we used those maps. They're incredible. I mean, Ken and I, we love them. And we superimposed arrows on them and explained what to be looking at and helped the viewer sometimes. And sometimes we don't need to do that. And then we thought, okay, now we have to build our own maps. So if you think back on the beautiful parchment maps that Ken made for the Civil War with the red and the blue arrows. And then you think about the kind of military maps we used in World War II and what we did in Vietnam. So we knew we had to do something like that.

• 20:28Speaker 02

  So we hired a cartographer and his team to actually build, it took almost two years, the topography of North America in the 18th century. Where were the rivers? Where are the mountain ranges? Where do the colonies lie? What are the boundaries? What are the lines? It's really, really hard to do. North America does not look like it did then. Just think about how many dams have been put up, right?

• 20:53Greg Jackson?

  Well, Boston is my go-to example on that, right?

• 20:55Speaker 02

  So then Boston, right? Yeah.

• 20:57Greg Jackson?

  Yes.

• 20:57Speaker 02

  Boston, their back bay, what? I mean, it's just, it's a completely different landscape. So we had to do that technically. And then the wonderful graphic designer Molly Schwartz, who's a brilliant watercolorist, had to watercolor on top of that topography. And those are the maps, we call them Molly maps. Those are our maps. And they, they help you. We put flags on them. We go zoom out very wide where you see all the way to, you know, Barbados and Jamaica and the colonies that are beyond the traditional 13. And then we get really, really, really close where you see trees in Sheffield, Massachusetts, or you see the wharf in Boston. And then we pull way out again and you see how smallpox spread across North America.

• 21:39Speaker 02

  We were making this film during the pandemic. You can't kind of make that up, right?

• 21:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:44Speaker 02

  And then the third thing we did was to work with an incredible company in England to do a kind of 3D CGI. And we did that very carefully in very specific places, working backwards. We did it in Yorktown. We do it at the end of the Battle of Long Island. We do it at Trenton. We do it in Quebec. And I think it's the most incredible Quebec where you really see how the geography and the weather impacted what was happening. And then using kind of the red and blue idea in a CGI way. And that was new for us and very exciting. And we didn't do it too much, but we have seen audiences love it. And I think you can't underplay how important maps are,

• 22:26Speaker 02

  and you can't undersell how good Ken is at maps. And if you travel with him, he can get, you can like blindfold him and turn him around, and then he'll be like, okay, this is how you get back. He's just got an innately good sense of direction. So that's helpful.

• 22:40Speaker 01

  Wow. She nailed it. My, one of my earliest memories is of my dad building a map cabinet, because he had the disease too. And I just, I love maps. And what I'm happy to report is that I think that there are more maps in the American Revolution than in all of our previous 39 films combined. Oh, my goodness.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're really amazing.

• 23:04Speaker 01

  And they help you understand. And for someone like Sarah, who's not thrilled about having to be told that the American right and the American left and the British left and the British right, the maps really help sort of figure it out. Because this is not a political history. It is a political history, but it's a social history. But it's not just a social history. It's a military history, which means you've got about 40 different battles you've got to get to know in this. And you, and we're not making it for the nerds like me, the people who already know that stuff. We want to make it explainable to someone who doesn't know. I remember after the Civil War, a woman asked me, she said how much she liked it, and asked

• 23:47Speaker 01

  me what I was doing next. And I said, a history of baseball. And she goes, oh, my husband and my son will like that. And I said, oh, so you're a military history expert. She goes, oh, no, you told human stories. I said, look, I'm making baseball for you. I already know your husband and your son are going to watch. I'm making this for you. So we, we have, we, the people who are the nerds will nerd out. But the people who are like, oh, I'm not into military history that much, or I'm not this, this is for you because it will give you a kind of a portal into the story and why it's important to understand what happened at Bennington, what happened at Saratoga, what happened at 96 in South Carolina, what happened at, at, you know, Utah Springs,

• 24:30Speaker 01

  what happened at Guilford Courthouse and as well as Yorktown and Lexington and Concord. I love that.

• 24:36Speaker 02

  And they're beautiful to look at. They're, the ones that were painted at the time are just extraordinary. The way Molly was able to bring kind of an authentic look and feel that was old, but also new. So you're not pretending to the audience. This isn't something that we've done ourselves to the incredible technology that you can do in 2025 with CGI.

• 24:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, part of it is erasing too, Greg. It's so interesting. One of my favorite maps is of the Boston area extending all the way through Lexington to Concord, and it has these figures drawn in, as Sarah was saying, and representations of bunches of troops, little tiny things, and canon here. But to begin our story, we subtracted all of that and sent Revere and Dawes off to warn, not that the redcoats are coming or the British are coming, but the regulars are coming out, which is what, what, what, at least Paul Revere said. And then begin, by the end, we filled it all back in with all of the action which we described through paintings. Oh, that's brilliant. Through drawings, through live cinematography of minute details, impressionistic details

• 25:43Speaker 01

  of reenactment. So, you know, plus the commentary of someone like Rick Atkinson, who knows the battle cold. And, and you sort of feel like he's standing at the edge of the stone wall in Lexington and knows exactly what's going on in the minds of people. All of that and, and music and effects, which, you know, sometimes we have a soundtrack, not just music, but, but of effects track that is as complex as any feature film. And we may be in the hundreds of, of individual tracks in the middle of a particular battle. And that helps, you know, wake up the people who tend to kind of go, oh, well, I'm not really interested in history.

• 26:20Greg Jackson?

  I'm so glad that you peeled back the curtain on that one. And I have to say, first of all, I think George Washington, the surveyor that he was, would be very pleased with all of this.

• 26:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, we hope to have George's. I mean, he can be tough, right? He can just look at you and you can kind of go, oh, man, I really screwed up here. But we're hoping that we've, you know, we've been, we're not uncritical of him. We see him as flawed and rash and making some pretty terrible tactical mistakes, particularly at Long Island and Brandywine. But we know that we don't have a country without him. So we'd be really happy if he felt good about these maps.

• 26:59Greg Jackson?

  I like to think he would. And I think the brilliance of, can you, Sarah, you're not Luddites. You're leaning into the new technology, but you're also not becoming dependent on it.

• 27:10Speaker 01

  That's correct.

• 27:10Speaker 02

  Very much so. We answered this question to a bunch of students the other day because I've worked for Ken for so long that my first film with him, we still cut on film and shot on film. And I'm so glad that I had that experience, unlike my incredible colleagues right outside here, because it is like going from a yellow pad to a typewriter to a computer. And the technology is incredible and what we're able to do. And we couldn't have made the revolution 30 years ago in this way. We would have made a different film and it would have been great. But the technology is incredible. But I think there is something old fashioned and hand sewn, and we can't lose that and we never would want to.

• 27:50Greg Jackson?

  Yes, make it, make it an ad, an and, not a or.

• 27:54Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, you don't want the tail to wag the dog, the technological tail to wag the dog. Also, AI has no business here.

• 28:03Speaker 02

  We're fairly religious on that front.

• 28:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're just.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  You gotta have a paper source for whatever we're doing.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  We, our scripts sometimes have, our internal scripts sometimes have as they're developing. And there's not just one, which then is the template like written in stone and delivered from Mount Sinai to inform shooting. By the time the first draft of all six episodes is done, we're three quarters of the way through shooting. Okay, and we've also got, you know, we never stopped shooting, we never stopped writing, we never stopped researching, of course, finding new material, being corrigible to that stuff, but there's some pages of that script that has the footnotes are bigger in area than the actual script on the page. And there really is just a narrative story written by Jeff Ward, punctuated by the first person voices that we're feeding to him, corrected by the scholars who say this is not right,

• 28:53Speaker 01

  or this emphasis isn't whatever, or our own artistic event, making sure that always, if push comes to shove, the facts win and not the art.

• 29:03Greg Jackson?

  Yes, so many of the things you're saying are the same philosophies I bring to bear with my podcast. I love hearing all this. Let me take us into a, as you're saying you do with the maps, we've kind of honed in on the tree that is the map itself, let's get nice and broad and take in the revolution from 30,000 feet. Ken, when I was in New Jersey, I remember thinking, again, a strong yes and agreeance as you were talking briefly at one point about the moment Thomas Jefferson and the boys put those unalienable rights out there and the cat being out of the bag, right? You were talking about what that would ultimately lead to in terms of liberty.

• 29:47Greg Jackson?

  I would love to just get, you know, now that you've made this film, Sarah, both of you, as we think about life, liberty, and of course, the pursuit of happiness, these unalienable rights, how's this film altered or augmented the way that those strike you?

• 30:03Speaker 01

  Well, I think just working on it gets you, I mean, I've passed through this area on lots of things, a biography of Jefferson, a biography of Franklin, who was, of course, the sort of head of the committee that wrote it, and Jefferson had delivered what was a more accurate sentence for the time, you know? He was saying, "We hold these truths to be sacred and undeniable," right? He's just saying, "This is what we believe." But when Franklin changes it to self-evident, there is nothing self-evident about these truths. And, and let's be also pretty honest, too, that they could have followed John Locke, and we're actually following John Locke, that it was life, liberty, and property. Correct. Right? And so what you have, particularly as we begin with Native American land, you know,

• 30:46Speaker 01

  property is a big deal, and this is a revolution that is fought essentially by an elite property-owning white man. And we always like to think that democracy is the object of our revolution. It's not the object, it's a consequence. Because as it turns out, over the course of six and a half long years from Lexington, New Yorktown, a lot of people who don't own property, teenagers, disaffected people, felons even, ne'er-do-wells, as South Carolina is advertising for, substitutes that have been bought, second and third sons without a chance of an inheritance, recent immigrants with, from Germany and England with no property whatsoever, end up doing the main fighting

• 31:30Speaker 01

  and the dying in the Continental Army, the most reliable military force that we have. Militia can be really good, or, or they can be scared, and they can leave because they've their crops to plant, or crops to harvest. So it's, it's that, and what happens is, starting first with Pennsylvania, is you begin to extend during the course of the revolution, some promises to these folks. You know, sometimes it's, we're gonna give you 100 acres of Indian land, boom, done, plus 10 bucks, or whatever it is. Some of them in the Constitution of Pennsylvania are gonna say, you're 21, you're white, you're male, you can vote. And that is not happy downstairs in the same building where John Adams is, who thought this was an aristocracy, a republic of sort of elites.

• 32:12Speaker 01

  And so there's an amazing transformation that takes place, and so these words are hugely important. First of all, that he does say pursuit of happiness. You know, we think that the happiness that they meant has to do with material things. In fact, I think in large part it has to do with lifelong learning. That they think that in order to earn this virtue of citizenship, you have to be completely educated, which has been the hallmark of our republic. You can't be back to being superstitious, conspiracy distracted, disinformationed subjects. You have to be thoughtful, verifying, critically thinking citizens. And that's a huge part of it. And the key word isn't even happiness. It's pursuit. This is an action verb, like more perfect union, right?

• 32:57Speaker 01

  And that's where I think we have to understand the gift that they gave us. And while we can be distracted, completely distracted in the canceling methods of talking about the flaws of Washington, or in this case, Jefferson, it's a fool's errand. They are who they are. And that sentence that he wrote, it just opened the door for everybody. We were speaking to the scholar Yuval Levin the other day, and he said, just the word "all." That's it. It's over, right? You know, when you say "all," you mean all. And while it'll take fourscore and nine years before slavery is outlawed, it's done. It'll take 144 years before women get the right to vote. It's done, right? And whatever other expansion of liberty that you mean.

• 33:39Speaker 01

  And even at that moment, when we know, people reading it know who it's intended for, everybody at the margins, as the legal scholar Maggie Blackock said, it's deeply significant, she said to them. And she's meaning women. She's meaning African Americans. She's meaning Native Americans. So that there is something so, almost the unintended consequences of the revolutionary ideas that Jefferson was putting on the page, despite his own shortcomings and limitations, makes this one of the great stories in the world. I mean, the scholar Annette Gordon Reed says, you know, "He knew slavery is wrong. And how could you know something is wrong and still do it?" She said, "Well, that's the human question for all of us." She's not letting Jefferson off the hook.

• 34:24Speaker 01

  She's putting us all on the hook. Yeah, she is. And that to me is the most significant thing for a woman, a black woman scholar, who is going to say that. About the man who is the author of the limitations as well as the possibilities of the republic. And then to also understand with regard to George Washington that there's nobody besides him, there's only one person could have kept the 13 colonies together. Then you begin to realize, okay, we don't have to separate into our political factions. We don't have to identify this way or that way. We can say, boy, we're Americans. This is one hell of a story. We've got the best scholars, you know, talking about it. We've spent a decade nearly researching those maps and those drawings and the paintings

• 35:09Speaker 01

  and we've collected 400 voices to complement the third-person narration and they're read by the greatest cast that's ever been assembled for a movie or a television series anywhere, period, you know, period.

• 35:21Greg Jackson?

  Yep. I did recognize that John Adams, I'll say, and it made me happy.

• 35:26Speaker 01

  You know, Longest Day, about D-Day, has a really long cast list of very famous actors. Ours is longer and because it includes women and all sorts of other types of people as well as the greatest stars of today, I'd put our cast list, I defy anyone. Maybe it's similar too, since the birth of Christ, but I would defy anybody to show us a better cast list than this one.

• 35:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I just, I just want to piggyback on one thing Ken said, which is, you know, I think we've been talking about this a lot as we go around the country and Ken said it so well about Maggie Blackhawk kind of explaining. But I think one of the hopes we have for the film is that it will put both the Declaration of Independence and then the Constitution into a little bit of historical context because I think most of us are kind of confused, you know, if you think about it for a second, you know, the Declaration came first and then the Constitution. But how much time took between the two documents? What inspired the first and the second? And I think the hypocrisy, particularly in the Declaration of Independence.

• 36:26Speaker 02

  The hypocrisy comes with enormous flexibility and that is very inspirational. And so we can handle, we're complicated people, right? We can handle all of those things. We can handle the hypocrisy. We can handle the flexibility. We can be inspired. We can look back at our scars and mistakes and use them to propel us forward. And there's something, we hear this a lot with commentators on every part of the political spectrum, saying that the simplicity and flexibility in our founding documents has actually served us very, very well. And it has the possibility to serve us now. And we have a lot to learn from the debates they had themselves about what to do and

• 37:08Speaker 02

  how to create this totally off the wall experiment in a people's republic. And we're still figuring it out.

• 37:17Greg Jackson?

  I have many times mused that the most brilliant part in the entire constitution. We can talk about the checks and balances and the development of government and how it builds upon so many centuries, right? And thoughts and ideas. The most brilliant thing in there is instructions on how to amend and permission to do so.

• 37:35Speaker 01

  That constitution would not have been ratified had the people in the, in the biggest public debate that had ever taken place in the history of the world, from, you know, the main district of Massachusetts down to Georgia, near the Florida border, had they not thought that there would be these 10 amendments that would go with it, that would help to enshrine the things that they had been fighting for. The Declaration, short of Governor Morris's beautiful poetic preamble, is just code. It's just code. And, you know, it's the operating manual. It's a 1.0, right? And it's pretty damn good. It's pretty short. It's concise.

• 38:19Speaker 01

  And yet it's those amendments that said, not yes, but, but yes, and, and.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  And we want no establishment of religion. We know where that goes in all of human history. We want a free press. We know where that goes when it's not extended. We want the freedom to assemble, to redress our grievances. We know where that goes when that is not permitted.

• 38:43Speaker 02

  And we know even better where those things go when they're not permitted.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:47Speaker 02

  Because of what's happened since, right? I keep thinking about that. We think about pre 1776 and 1783 and 1787, but actually look at the history of the world since then.

• 38:59Greg Jackson?

  And speaking of a history of the world, we're jumping from the American Revolution to the war, World War II, that is, right after this break.

• 39:15Greg Jackson?

  History That Doesn't Suck is supported by Vistaprint. This podcast is a small business passion project, and seeing our vision come to life offline is cool, too, thanks to our expert partner, Vistaprint. On my recent book tour, we were able to order custom, high-quality banners for book readings. It also added a nice professional polish. It also made the events more memorable because readers and I could pose together in front of the banner for selfies to post online. And that's just one of the countless premium products Vistaprint offers to elevate your brand identity. From postcards and posters to tumblers and t-shirts, Vistaprint makes high-end, custom printing accessible to everyone, giving you exceptional quality and results that make every single dollar go further. With real people on standby and seamless tools, Vistaprint guides you through every step of the process so you always

• 39:59Greg Jackson?

  look completely polished. There's a reason over 17 million small businesses trust Vistaprint to elevate their vision. Vistaprint. Print your possible. Right now, new customers get 20% off with code NEW20 at Vistaprint.com. That's 20% off at Vistaprint.com using code NEW20.

• 40:26Greg Jackson?

  So 2007, you created a 14-hour docu-series, The War. And you opened that with, "The Second World War was fought in thousands of places, too many for any one accounting. This is the story of four American towns and how their citizens experienced that war." I think in that singular statement, you kind of touch on what you also say about the revolution, right? It's complicated, that like the revolution, World War II is super complicated in its narrative of the American story. If the revolution is our origin story, then what is that turn? What does World War II?

• 41:02Speaker 01

  So, so World War II, as we say in the opening line, is the greatest cataclysm in human history. Period. 60 million people's lives are extinguished in the course of it. This is the big event. It's the, it's the first film that Sarah and I have worked on, which had hundreds of brothers and sisters, other documentaries about it. And we weren't looking for a way to see it differently. We knew that however we approach it, because of our diligence and the amount of time we're going to take, in this case, somewhere between seven and a half and eight years, we're going to have a deep dive and it's going to be different than the experiences of people we talked to. And we first thought, wouldn't it be interesting to tell the story of World War II through the experiences of one town? It's almost taking the English Romantic poet, Robert Blake, you'd find the world in a

• 41:47Speaker 01

  grain of sand. So we could find it. But there were not enough alive people who covered the range of soldiers across the Pacific and European theater, in the air, on the sea, you know, various experiences. And so we expanded it out to four towns. Three of them, Waterbury, Connecticut, Mobile, Alabama, Sacramento, California, had about 100,000 people in 1940, 41. And then tiny Luverne, Minnesota, which had about 3,000 people. So gave us a range of geographical experience, but also community experience. And then told the whole thing. So it doesn't mean we weren't top-down. We weren't showing maps of, you know, big, you know, red movements of the Nazis and the Soviet counterattack and all of that.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  It's all there. But we were trying to unify it so that, say, in a, and that never happens. People trying to- Traditionally sort of take the World War II in little bits, like one thing, or thematically. So you've got European and then you do Pacific. We integrate it. So the day that we're talking about D-Day, and we just landed there, and we go back to the reaction at home, we go to a newspaper headline, and there we're landing at Saipan. And so we follow a Saipan story, then we go back to trying to break out of the hedgerows. Then we conclude the Battle of Saipan, and then we go and we break out and we start moving through to Falese and then on to Paris. But before we do that, we've also gone to the next island that you're gonna go, and so you have also been home again

• 43:17Speaker 01

  to deal with things like the black market, or what's happening in various people. And what we were trying to do was, in essence, be the headline, the front page of a paper, which at any given time is always responsibly giving you what's happening in the Pacific theater and what's happening in the European theater. And what we found, even among veterans, was, "Thank you. I was in the Pacific and I had no idea what I was doing. I was just moving from one blue dot, you know, in a, or a green dot in a blue sea, to another." Or, "Thank you, I had no idea what was happening in Europe," or conversely. And that was really important to us. And that's sort of what we've done with all the wars, that we've tried to understand that there's a simultaneity to events, that, you know, teachers say, "Oh, we're gonna teach you

• 44:02Speaker 01

  ancient Chinese history, and then we're gonna do European." Somehow, you don't ever see the timeline in which they coexist and know that this is also happening at that moment. It's really important, and I think maybe to the point that helped you transit, Greg, I would just say about the fragility of democratic institutions, which is part of what our founders understood, is just how flawed human beings are and how willing they are to sort of devolve, you know? All experience has shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer while evils are sufferable. Jefferson writes in the Declaration, "A few phrases beyond pursuit of happiness." But if you wanted to be in the most cosmopolitan place on Earth in 1932,

• 44:46Speaker 01

  where things are new in literature, in music, in architecture, in cinema, in painting, in ideas, there's no better place on Earth than Berlin. And the next January, not so much.

• 45:00Speaker 02

  Annette Gordon Reed said to us the other night, you know, one of the things that's important when we study these huge moments where global everything changes is that after these wars, nothing is the same. Everything changes, right? And then Ken was talking about in World War II, you have the total transformation of the American home front. You have these two wars happening simultaneously, as Ken is saying, that we don't always understand that they're happening at the same time. And then where do you put the Holocaust in that history? How important was it to the larger history of the Second World War? Where does it fit in to everything else that was happening? As Ken said, 60 million people died in that conflict.

• 45:41Speaker 02

  Nothing was ever the same after. And so what are the things that led up to it that made it happen? How did it transform the world? And what is its legacy as we understand as Americans, the good war?

• 45:55Greg Jackson?

  The good war. And yet, as you left, right?

• 45:58Speaker 01

  The worst war ever.

• 46:00Speaker 02

  Right.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  We know why. It's in retrospect that it's the good war, right?

• 46:04Greg Jackson?

  I know it, yeah.

• 46:05Speaker 01

  The ambiguity, first of Korea as undeclared, and then of Vietnam as not only undeclared, but also, you know, populist that sort of flipped and turned again, a majority turned against it. So the good, you know, we like the fact that Sam Heinz, a pilot, said to us, "It's not the good war, it's a necessary war." And that gave our first chapter its title. And so you can look at that. There's not a good war. It's, that's oxymoronic.

• 46:32Speaker 02

  And as Sam then said, we, what does he say? We waded into Vietnam, a great image. So he gets, he gets some

• 46:41Speaker 01

  Kudos for both.

• 46:42Speaker 02

  Moment, both, yeah.

• 46:43Greg Jackson?

  Ken, you mentioned the fragility of democratic institutions. My mind goes to the reluctance of the United States as it's coming out of this isolationist space to step into the war. And I suppose I see a reluctance in FDR in stepping into this global role that the United States has never held. And yet he's, he's pressed and pushed into it. And as he does so, you know, he brings things like the Atlantic Charter, like the Four Freedoms speech. In what ways, in all the ugly nastiness that is World War II, do you think, and American, the American experience in particular, American leadership, American concepts of liberal democracy?

• 47:28Greg Jackson?

  Are they promulgated, furthered?

• 47:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:32Greg Jackson?

  Do we become that beacon on the hill? Or is that more myth? Where do you go with it?

• 47:36Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's important to understand that at the end of the revolution, the Treaty of Paris gave us a nation to the Mississippi, which is bigger than England, France and Spain combined. Right? So the empire's begun. During the Chaise Rebellion, George Washington pleads, "Please don't drown our rising empire in blood." They call it the Continental Army, the Continental Congress. They know where they're going. By Theodore Roosevelt's time, a century plus later, America is a big player in the world scene. We've become the deciding factor in the First World War, but that turns a lot of people off. At the exact same time, we decided to turn off the spigot of immigration. So it develops this kind of nativist as well as isolationist tendencies.

• 48:21Speaker 01

  The only thing I disagree with you is that never once was Roosevelt reluctant. He knew who his fifth cousin was and what he wanted to do on the world stage. He had been an Assistant Secretary of the Navy. The biggest favors that ever happened to him were Pearl Harbor and then a few days later, Nazi Germany declaring war on the United States. So we wouldn't have to make two different arguments. Yes, everybody's going to go along with responding to the war in the Pacific. But his big worry, understandably and correctly, is what's going on in Europe and into the Soviet Union. And so these were gifts to him. And the world was coming out of an economic crisis in which just the very notion of the survival of democracy is at stake. And he, more than anyone else on the planet,

• 49:06Speaker 01

  and I know there are lots of Churchill people who are listening to me, and he is central to this and number two, and he's keeping it going even when we can't get in there. He understands this war is won in order with American manufacturing, one, Soviet sacrifice, two, and then Allied sacrifice, three. And that is huge. And he kept, he had pivoted from the New Deal programs into the kind of robust economy that's not only going to end the Depression, but it is going to actually, in September of 1945, more than 50% of all things manufactured in the world were made in the United States. This is, this is an unbelievable story.

• 49:51Speaker 01

  And what manufactured more than anything... Was the idea that in the midst of this economic crisis and then in the greatest cataclysm, that our democracy remained intact. There were free and fair elections. There wasn't a peaceful transfer of power because we wanted the guy the whole time. But there was an independence of the judiciary and an independent Congress, a legislative branch that was by no means rubber stamp. And that was the difference in saving the world.

• 50:20Greg Jackson?

  I appreciate that response. Let me clarify, Ken. You're right. He's not reluctant.

• 50:24Speaker 01

  Not reluctant.

• 50:25Greg Jackson?

  The Roosevelt knows what a Roosevelt is.

• 50:27Speaker 01

  I know.

• 50:27Greg Jackson?

  It's a burden, and I believe he said once.

• 50:29Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 50:30Greg Jackson?

  But let me clarify. I'll say he was politically savvy.

• 50:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:35Greg Jackson?

  He knew to, we're not going, our boys aren't going over.

• 50:39Speaker 01

  The bad thing in the world that we want is that, yes.

• 50:40Greg Jackson?

  That's what I was getting at.

• 50:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're absolutely right about that.

• 50:44Greg Jackson?

  Um, okay. Why don't we end on, on a lighter note? Let me ask you this. And Sarah, please, I'd like to hear your response to that. The two of you have spent so much time, your lives are making these films. Beyond your own, what's your favorite World War II film? Whether it's Don Kirk or The Pacific Masters of the Air? Do you have a favorite? Or is that just so far out of your mind because you've been so busy making Revolution?

• 51:09Speaker 02

  Uh, my gosh. I mean, I, I'll just hang in on Steven Spielberg for a second. I think, you know, Saving Private Ryan and Schindler's List are two really important films if you want to think about that time period. Obviously, there are all the amazing films that were made just after World War II, which I think are also really interesting to study. And then I think, you know, HBO did an amazing job with Band of Brothers and the Pacific Series. So I'm not sure, Ken, how I would answer that.

• 51:36Speaker 01

  I agree with Sarah.

• 51:38Speaker 02

  Saving Private Ryan, I don't know.

• 51:39Speaker 01

  I put Saving Private Ryan up there. And of course, Schindler's List. I also think right after the war, as Sarah said correctly, not just those ones like Best Years of Our Life that were focused on the aftermath, but I'm talking about It's a Wonderful Life.

• 51:51Speaker 02

  A Wonderful Life, yeah.

• 51:52Speaker 01

  That is made right in the aftermath of it. And there is a democratic hopefulness and a sense of us being in it together, a sense of a big, huge existential question. Do you wish to live in? Bedford Falls, or do you wish to live in Pottersville? And that was what the whole struggle was about. I'll make one little footnote to Saving Private Ryan. As everyone probably knows who's listening, this is based on Mrs. Sullivan, who lost four of her sons when a battleship was sunk by the Japanese. And the War Department decided at that moment that they would separate any sons so that you wouldn't have a situation. And that one of the things about Saving Private Ryan is essentially that it's riffing on a variation of like,

• 52:36Speaker 01

  let's not have a mother suffer anymore, right? Yeah. In our revolution, Rebecca Tanner, and this is just a line on a log someplace, Rebecca Tanner, a Mohegan woman, meaning probably Connecticut, lost five sons, fighting for the patriot cause in the revolution. So let that sink in. And then tell me that it's just about guys in Philadelphia. Five sons. Now, I'm sure there's Soviet women. I'm sure there's Polish women. I'm sure there are families that had 20 kids that were completely annihilated in wars in the past. But we have a record in our sort of bloodless, gallant, American revolution

• 53:21Speaker 01

  that is all, you know, covered with the barnacles of sentimentality, that we have this really real person. And you meet a 14-year-old kid, and a 15-year-old kid from Connecticut, Joseph Lam Martin, not a Native American, but now a native comma, American, fighting for the patriot cause throughout. 15 years old, he signs up and serves throughout the whole war. These are the stories that have to accompany Washington crossing the Delaware. These are the stories that have to accompany the group of five men, the committee that sat down and gave to Thomas Jefferson the responsibility of writing the first draft for the Declaration. These are the stories that have to accompany the months in the summer of 1787

• 54:03Speaker 01

  when they drafted the shortest and still the best constitution in the world. These are the stories that have to accompany us if we're going to know more than just that superficial, sanitized Madison Avenue version of history, which the three of us are not interested in.

• 54:19Greg Jackson?

  Ken, Sarah, I don't think there's a better note to end on there. I want to thank you so much for your time for this truly delightful and deep and meaningful conversation that's taken us to, yes, the high, beautiful aspects of the revolution, down to the dark and the dreary, and into World War II, the top down, the bottom down, and of course, the maps. Yeah, all right, the maps.

• 54:43Speaker 02

  History doesn't suck.

• 54:45Greg Jackson?

  Yeah. That's right. Thank you both so much, and we'll look forward to more things down the road, I'm sure.

• 54:52Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 54:53Greg Jackson?

  Working on a lot. Ken Burns' latest documentary, The American Revolution, premieres on November 16th on PBS. That concludes this special episode. Don't forget that right now, you can listen to an extra story about the birth of the United States Marine Corps, which celebrates its 250th birthday, November 10th, 2025. You can access that and other exclusive stories by visiting htdspodcast.com/membership, or click the link in the episode notes to start a free seven-day trial.

• 55:27Greg Jackson?

  History That Doesn't Suck is created and hosted by me, Greg Jackson. Special thanks to Ken Burns and Sarah Botstein. Episode produced by Dawson and Croft, with editorial assistance by Ella Hendrickson and Will Keen. Production by Airship. Sound design by Molly Vok. Theme music composed by Greg Jackson. Arrangement and additional composition by Lindsey Graham of Airship. For bibliography of all primary and secondary sources consulted in writing this episode, visit htdspodcast.com.

• 56:05Greg Jackson?

  HTDS is supported by fans at htdspodcast.com/membership. My gratitude to you kind souls providing funding to help us keep going. Thank you. And a special thanks to our patrons whose monthly gift puts them at producer status. Adam Goran Ahmet Chapman Amy and Ross Hensman Andrew Nissen Andrew Sherwin Anna M. Huta Art Lang Baby Nico Bob Stinnett Bonnie Brooks Ryan Gavigan Ryan Boils Ryan Goodson Bruce Hibbert Kayden Hallitz Charles Clanden Charles Starkey Charlie Majes Christopher Merchant Christopher Lyle Christopher Pullman Christopher Young Cody Brown Colleen Martin Colin Ferris Pennington Connor Hogan Craig Burrhost Dan G. Daniel Beecham Daniel Lucana Darren Chambers Daryl the Kid Lovell

• 56:50Greg Jackson?

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• 57:35Greg Jackson?

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• 58:20Greg Jackson?

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