Jocko Underground: The Reasons Your Tactical Moves are Ruining Your Strategy

Know the enemies of strategic thinking. Be sure you're thinking strategically. SUBSCRIBE HERE: https://app.redcircle.com/shows/64a89f88-a245-4098-8d8d-496325ec4f74/exclusive-content Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is the Jocko Underground Podcast, number five with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. And also joining us tonight is, good deal, Dave Berke. Good evening, Dave. All right, so we've been getting crazy, talking about competing. But tonight, the opening of the podcast tonight, I kind of went a little bit deep on thinking strategic versus thinking tactical. So I was thinking about that. And I started thinking about, look, it's so obvious, isn't it so obvious that we should be thinking strategic all the time? Isn't it so obvious? It seems so obvious, right? Why isn't it happening? So I started thinking about, okay, what are the enemies?

• 0:46Jocko Willink?

  What are the enemies of strategic thinking? What are they? What can they be? They've got to be out there because otherwise we would just be thinking strategic all the time. But if everyone was thinking strategic all the time, the world would be an entirely different place. And certainly, every individual's world would be an entirely different place.

• 1:09Jocko Willink?

  So what's causing it?

• 1:12Jocko Willink?

  First thing that comes to my mind, ego.

• 1:17Jocko Willink?

  Why is that? What is ego? How does ego drive us to not think strategically? Well, because our ego is that thing that is

• 1:28Jocko Willink?

  not comfortable with giving a tactical victory to someone else. I mean, so I would rather win an argument with Dave Berke, hurt our relationship, make him look bad, devolve our business relationship, our personal, I'd rather do all that because I want to win an argument with Dave. Why? Because that's my ego talking.

• 1:55Jocko Willink?

  That is such a driver of doing dumb things. You know, what's really crazy is when people do, when people do dumb things based on their ego and it actually, it actually.

• 2:11Jocko Willink?

  You can destroy like your whole company, right? You can have a whole company that gets destroyed by ego. You can do, I mean, you certainly can have people, and there's examples of battles that have taken place where ego caused defeat. And cost, you know, hundreds or thousands of people their lives. Based just on ego. Just on, hey, we can take these guys. Hey, my plan is gonna like, that happens. That's a real thing. So when we talk about that, I also want to talk about, okay, so how do you, how do you defeat this enemy of, how do you defeat this enemy? Of strategic thinking? If it's your ego, how do you, how do you do that? Well, to me, you've got to.

• 2:56Jocko Willink?

  And this is the answer, I'm gonna say this answer over and over again. You gotta detach and you gotta think about what you're doing. Which.

• 3:05Jocko Willink?

  What a novel idea to actually detach and think about what you're doing.

• 3:12Jocko Willink?

  And oddly enough, this gives you this massive strategic advantage if you can take a four inch step backwards. Detach from your ego and look at what's actually playing out.

• 3:26Jocko Willink?

  If you could do that, you're, you're like infinitely better. Than you are if your ego is all wrapped up in this decision that you're making.

• 3:36Jocko Willink?

  It's crazy that it would come to that.

• 3:40Speaker 01

  You ever seen The Breakfast Club? Remember that movie?

• 3:42Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 3:43Speaker 01

  It's old school, right? You see now, right? That's your jam. The, can't remember the part when he was like, hey, uh.

• 3:49Jocko Willink?

  I made, we want like early quarantine. You know, when it was like, well, what are we doing? You know? And the kids were home, my daughters were home for college, from college and all that, and we're sitting around. So we, I said, okay, we're gonna watch some eighties movies. I went old school. Breakfast Club was on the list. It was one of the few. That kind of passed muster cuz some of the other movie I'll tell you cuz I have a daughter that she was 10 when quarantine kicked off and all that. Have you have you watched ET like recently?

• 4:26Speaker 02

  Like 10 years ago, maybe. Wait, what do you mean it passed muster?

• 4:30Jocko Willink?

  Like like like the family was like, oh, that was pretty good. Yeah, it was okay. Cuz now they there was a time where there's like, we're not watching anymore. You're stupid movies. As a matter of fact, my youngest daughter, when I say when I say my youngest daughter, oh, do you want to watch a movie? She's like, from what year?

• 4:47Jocko Willink?

  And ET is one of the ones that sort of put the nail in the coffin on 80s movies. Have you, Dave, have you ever seen you seen ET?

• 4:53Speaker 02

  I've totally seen ET.

• 4:55Jocko Willink?

  Have you seen it in the last three years, five years?

• 4:57Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 4:59Jocko Willink?

  Did it pass muster?

• 5:02Speaker 02

  It hasn't it hasn't been watched since and is one of those that like the iTunes scenario, I'm like, I'm just gonna buy it cuz once they see it, they're gonna watch it a bunch. Nobody has gone back to.

• 5:11Jocko Willink?

  One shot.

• 5:12Speaker 02

  And I was I hadn't seen it in probably 20 something years, but I was so sure that I wasn't gonna waste my time with a rental. I'm buying it because this is gonna be on repeat. Nobody's gone back to that well.

• 5:22Jocko Willink?

  That you and I walked into that ambush the exact same way.

• 5:27Speaker 02

  It's crazy.

• 5:27Jocko Willink?

  I 100 cuz I don't I don't you said you haven't seen it in 20 years. I saw it in the theater.

• 5:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:33Jocko Willink?

  So whatever year it came out, 1983. So I was like 12 years old. I went to the theater and watched it. And I remember it being this moving story.

• 5:45Jocko Willink?

  And I was expecting and and my my wife, you know, she's a let's say she will she's no she will get emotional during a movie, right? You know? She'll get sad and my youngest daughter is kind of the same way, you know, you'll see the tears welling up. So I'm thinking, oh, you know, we're taking down this little emotional thing and I'm kind of thinking, well, you know, I better check myself too cuz you know, when ET is going home, you know, I don't want to be the I don't want to be the guy that's breaking out.

• 6:13Speaker 01

  During E T.

• 6:15Jocko Willink?

  Bro, it was hard. My, my youngest daughter, it was hard for her to even kind of watch the whole thing. And part of it is the freaking special effects nowadays. I mean, when you see E T looking like a, looking like a, looking like a, someone's like holding it behind and shaking it to make it look like it's walking. Super lame, super lame. But what, but, and that was bad. But then actually what was weird to me is like the story wasn't as good as I remember. And that movie was a blockbuster. It was a blockbuster. Why was it a blockbuster? Special effects allegedly? Cause I mean, damn.

• 6:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I got no answer at this time. But yeah, that the E T, the, the kids nowadays, they're, well, my daughter, she's seven. Um, where she'll like, you know, they can, they're at that age and older, they can identify current special effects and old school special effects.

• 7:14Jocko Willink?

  Well, you make those little movies with your kids in them. And so they're like, why are we watching a, why are we watching a puppet?

• 7:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 7:21Jocko Willink?

  Move all super whack.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 7:24Jocko Willink?

  So E T didn't really pass the muster.

• 7:31Jocko Willink?

  Dang, Ferris Bueller's Day Off didn't really pass muster. And even I was sort of like, wow, I thought that, I remember, I remember these things as they were pretty good, right?

• 7:44Jocko Willink?

  Uh, and, and, and Breakfast Club, breakfast, and there was a, I'm trying to think of some other ones that, that we watched, but, but Breakfast Club

• 7:54Jocko Willink?

  passed muster.

• 7:55Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 7:55Jocko Willink?

  Passed muster.

• 7:56Speaker 01

  Dang it, not Ferris Bueller, huh?

• 7:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I know.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  That's weird. Ferris Bueller seemed like that was the adventure.

• 8:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it did seem that way. So you were referring to Breakfast Club?

• 8:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:06Jocko Willink?

  Do you even have any idea why you're referring to Breakfast Club?

• 8:08Speaker 01

  Yes, I do. It's a very critical point that you, you brought up actually about how your ego, you can watch as someone's ego just drives their whole interests into the ground and, and defeats them, all of them, completely to zero. So Breakfast Club, there was a time where he came and he, and, uh, what's it, what's the principal or whatever? The guy's name Vernon, I think, or something like this?

• 8:34Jocko Willink?

  But I, I don't know, I can't remember.

• 8:36Speaker 01

  He came in and he was like, you know, said his thing and he's like, I don't know.

• 8:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, screw you.

• 8:42Speaker 01

  Do you have any more questions? And he said, yeah, I have a question. He's like, does Barry Manilow know that you raided his wardrobe?

• 8:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  And he said, I'll give you the answer to that question next Saturday.

• 8:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  Right? Like you got another Saturday detention. And um, then he kept going with it, right? Like, kind of like, whatever. Well, I forget exactly his response to that one was. And he's like, he's like, oh, oh, no, he's like, I, I'm not free or something like that. And he's like, oh, I'm free. Anyway, he goes, he's like, you want to keep going?

• 9:09Jocko Willink?

  And he's like, and he ends up with the horns.

• 9:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:11Jocko Willink?

  With the fingers. Two months, Bender. Two months, Bender. I got you for two months.

• 9:16Speaker 01

  To the point where, and like, just like how you said, you can watch people as they just do it. And meanwhile, so the girl.

• 9:23Jocko Willink?

  I mean, I was referring to, I was referring to battles where thousands of people have been killed because of someone's ego. But Bender did get two months worth of detention.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  Same exact deal. Same exact deal. So Molly Ringwald, Ringwald, yeah.

• 9:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  She's like, she's straight up sitting there saying, hey, stop. She's like, cut it out. Dude, I can't watch this anymore, you know? And brother, that's how, right? Everyone's like, can see it. And brother, the guy wasn't detached at all. His ego was just flaring up, front lines all day. Two months of detention, man.

• 9:51Jocko Willink?

  Two months. I got you for two months.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  You mess with the bull, you get the horns.

• 9:57Jocko Willink?

  All right. So we got to watch out for our ego. Our ego is a enemy of strategic thinking. You could end up with two months of Saturday detentions.

• 10:07Speaker 01

  Or what have you.

• 10:08Jocko Willink?

  Or you can end up leading people to death in combat. Both of these apparently are big, huge strategic defeats.

• 10:18Jocko Willink?

  Another thing, uh, that is an enemy of strategic thinking, this one's real obvious, instant gratification. Whatever that instant gratification is. It oddly enough can just crush a long-term strategic victory because you want immediate gratification right now. Donut.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  That one's such a weird one right there.

• 10:40Jocko Willink?

  Donut?

• 10:41Speaker 01

  No, no, no. The immediate gratification, like you know it. It's like you see it right there in front of you. You see the whole thing. It's not like something's gonna sneak out of the and surprise you. You know. You know, straight up. And you just do it like saving money, right? You know, that one? You save money, then you see that thing that you don't even need.

• 11:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. In Discipline Goes Freedom Field Manual, the new edition, I wrote a little section about getting ambushed by, like as if the donut ambushes you. As if that's what happens. As if the alarm clock snooze button somehow.

• 11:20Jocko Willink?

  So that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground Podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to JacoUnderground.com and subscribe. And we're doing this, we're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms. So we are not subject to their control. And we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko Podcast, which will remain as is free for all, as long as we can keep it that way. But we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors. And we're doing it so we can give you more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us. And to do

• 12:02Jocko Willink?

  that, we are, we're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you. It's JacoUnderground.com. It costs $8.18 a month. And if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email [email protected] and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized underground.