Can Trump Mobilize the Military Without California's Consent?

Melissa, Kate, and Leah can smell the fascism in the air as President Trump forces troops on California protesters. They discuss how he is (yet again) pushing the boundaries of authoritarianism, provide an update on the Kilmar Abrego Garcia case, and unpack another flurry of Supreme Court Opinions. Then, they talk trans rights with Chase Strangio, deputy director for transgender justice and staff attorney with the ACLU. Finally, a bit of fun with a game about iconic breakups–political and otherwise. This episode was recorded live from Sony Hall in New York City. Hosts’ favorite things: Kate: “How 2000s Culture Messed Us Up https://culturestudypod.substack.com/p/how-2000s-culture-messed-us-up-27c”, (The Culture Study Podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/culture-study-podcast/id1718662839); “Delay, Interfere, Undermine” https://www.propublica.org/article/bukele-trump-el-salvador-ms13-gang-vulcan-corruption-investigation, T. Christian Miller and Sebastian Rotella (ProPublica); Federalizing the California National Guard https://www.stevevladeck.com/p/156-federalizing-the-california-national, Steve Vladek (One First) Leah: This Is What Autocracy Looks Like https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/09/opinion/autocracy-trump-la-protests.html, Michelle Goldberg (NYT); Argent https://argentwork.com/collections/new-arrivals?tw_source=google&tw_adid=&tw_campaign=20652025395&tw_kwdid=&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=20652027984&gbraid=0AAAAADBe3BT-hU6HLuUwfNzRcUgdWfWTF&gclid=Cj0KCQjwmK_CBhCEARIsAMKwcD5Jc_OfqCj_kz0lSq2DT19O_VfRy-cr-dgySZnXnz0y-jFIxpPh2JAaAmdoEALw_wcB, who dressed the hosts for the show Melissa: What the Hell Is Posse Comitatus Anyway? https://www.thenation.com/article/society/what-the-hell-is-posse-comitatus/ Elie Mystal (The Nation); The Better Sister https://www.primevideo.com/detail/The-Better-Sister/0QXKDU7TMYMKAP9XCXB5GM5FUE (Prime Video); Sarah Sclarandis’ shoes https://www.sclarandis.com/ Get tickets for STRICT SCRUTINY LIVE – The Bad Decisions Tour 2025! 3/6/26 – San Francisco 3/7/26 – Los Angeles Learn more: http://crooked.com/events Order your copy of Leah's book, Lawless: How the Supreme Court Runs on Conservative Grievance, Fringe Theories, and Bad Vibes https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Lawless/Leah-Litman/9781668054628 Follow us on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/strictscrutinypodcast/?hl=en, Threads https://www.threads.net/@strictscrutinypodcast, and Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/strictscrutiny.bsky.social

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Melissa Murray?

  Strict Scrutiny is brought to you by Americans United for Separation of Church and State. You don't destroy 250 years of secular democracy without gutting precedent, shattering norms, and dropping a few billion. The same people and groups that back Project 2025 are part of a larger shadow network that's relentlessly pushing to impose a Christian nationalist agenda on our laws and our lives. Church-state separation is the bulwark blocking their agenda. One of the last bastions of church-state separation is our public school system. So, they are pushing vouchers everywhere. They're arguing for religious public schools. Yes, you heard that right, religious public schools. And they've been pushing for it at the Supreme Court. The case was recently decided.

• 0:43Melissa Murray?

  Happily, they failed this time, but they're going to be pushing again, and we are going to see the same kind of question bubble up to the court once again. We've talked about this. So, if you're listening to Strict Scrutiny, you already see the writing on the wall, and you know that we can and we must fight back. So, join Americans United for Separation of Church and State and their growing movement, because church-state separation protects us all. Learn more and get involved at au.org/crooked. Hey, listeners, it's Melissa Murray here. Before we get to the rest of the show, I want to tell you about Amicus, Slate's weekly podcast about the US Supreme Court that's hosted by our friends Dahlia Lithwick and Mark Joseph Stern.

• 1:26Melissa Murray?

  Their perspectives on the Supreme Court and indeed the fight for democracy is absolutely essential listening. This June, Amicus is in full Opinion Palooza mode, dropping emergency episodes when the biggest decisions come down, and sharing incisive analysis of the power struggle between SCOTUS and POTUS with some of the smartest court watchers out there in fresh episodes every Saturday. You might actually even hear one of us on Amicus 2. Listen to Amicus now, wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:52Speaker 01

  Mr. Chief Justice, may it please be poured. It's an old joke, but when a man argues against two beautiful ladies like this, they're going to have the last word.

• 2:05Speaker 02

  She spoke not elegantly, but with unmistakable clarity. She said, "I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks."

• 2:35Melissa Murray?

  Welcome to a very special episode of Strict Scrutiny, your podcast about the Supreme Court and the legal culture that surrounds it. And we are coming to you live tonight from Sony Hall in New York City.

• 2:58Melissa Murray?

  This crowd had three choices tonight. They could have gone to Hamilton. They could have joined the Church of Scientology.

• 3:08Melissa Murray?

  Or they could have come here. And I'm just going to say, what was the right choice?

• 3:16Melissa Murray?

  We're your hosts. I'm Alyssa Murray.

• 3:18Leah Litman?

  I'm Kate Shaw. And I'm Leah Litman.

• 3:24Leah Litman?

  So as you know, we have a new Strict Scrutiny summer cocktail, the Big Baller. We still can't tell you what's in it because it's a state secret. But it has been another fucking week. And since the Supreme Court has now signed off on Doge getting all of our information without turning over any of theirs, we've decided, I know, boo, we've decided to make these bad boys doubles. So since the court is now on board with the Big Ball agenda, may it displease the court, let us introduce the Bigger Baller.

• 4:08Melissa Murray?

  And I just have to say, because we are shallow that way, we had a great live show in DC and we had an amazing, beautiful crowd in DC. But I have to say, this New York City crowd is something.

• 4:30Melissa Murray?

  In fact, you all look so good and you're having so much fun that I think we might have to call in the Marines. Too soon, too soon.

• 4:40Leah Litman?

  The city is going to be filled with semen. That's S-E-A, men. The Marines are part of the Department of the Navy. Get your minds out of the gutter. This isn't the fucking Pentagon. I've already eaten the frosting off of three Magnolia cupcakes, so I am raring to go.

• 4:59Kate Shaw?

  That is literally true, and sugar is Leah's secret sauce, so she is really just getting warmed up. But I'm going to get us back on track, because that is my job. And here is what we have in store for you tonight. We are going to start off with the unfolding scene in Los Angeles, where as of Thursday, there are nearly 5,000 federal troops deployed in an American city. We're going to talk generally about some of the legal questions raised by the president's domestic use of the military. The situation is rapidly unfolding, so it is likely that a lot of additional things will have happened before this episode airs on Monday, and also possibly before we are even off this stage. But we're going to press on.

• 5:42Kate Shaw?

  After that, we will talk about some of the additional goings-on at SCOTUS, including the opinions that we got last week.

• 5:48Melissa Murray?

  And we're also going to be joined by a very special guest. Friend of the pod and Supreme Court litigator extraordinaire, Chase Strangio is here in the house tonight. And after we break down this court with Chase, because it's a live show, we are going to play a little strict scrutiny game. And you know this is a podcast that runs the gamut, from the Federalist Papers to Vanderpump Rules. So that's what this game is going to do. So if you're a con law nerd or a pop culture nerd, this is your moment, because everyone needs to get on this pub night trivia. All right, let's dive in.

• 6:32Melissa Murray?

  We are going to start off tonight with the Trump administration's extraordinary and extraordinarily dangerous decision to implement its mass deportation agenda in the great state of California. And in California, as we know, they have launched massive ICE raids, ICE raids that were allegedly orchestrated by Stephen Miller. Boo.

• 6:57Leah Litman?

  So after the massive, large-scale ICE raids began around June 4th in LA, Angelinos began protesting. Most of the protests were peaceful, although a handful were not. Some driverless cars were vandalized, there was other scattered property damage, as we should say oftentimes happens at large mass protests. And never before did anyone think that a few protesters were so scary, they required a full-scale military deployment. Until now. Until the very scared administration of manly men Donald Trump and Stephen Miller. I think they really need to take a look at Josh Hawley's manhood.

• 7:40Leah Litman?

  The masculine virtues that America needs. Get your minds out of the gutter. Again, this is not the Pentagon.

• 7:46Kate Shaw?

  On Saturday, June 6th, President Trump signed an executive order that generally referenced, quote, "incidents of violence and disorder", but actually didn't say anything about LA specifically, which I think means New York, Philly, Chicago, and elsewhere, we are all on notice. So that executive order relied on a federal statute, 10 U.S.C. Section 12, 406, that allows members of the National Guard to be, quote, "called into federal service", that is federalized, and the executive order said they would be used to, quote, "temporarily protect ICE and other US government personnel who are performing federal functions." So after the executive order, the Secretary of Defense, yeah, then implemented the directive by federalizing

• 8:29Kate Shaw?

  around 4,000 members of the California National Guard, and then sent in 700 Marines. So again, this is how we get to nearly 5,000 military personnel members in Los Angeles. As Leah said in our last show, Article 2 fascist, 2 furious. That is where we are. Or, as this fine denizen of Los Angeles said after being tear-gassed...

• 8:56Leah Litman?

  But you told me you got caught up in the tear gas as well. Describe what happened to you.

• 9:01Speaker 05

  Oh, just tasted a little tear gas. Tasted like fascism.

• 9:08Melissa Murray?

  Just for context, the last time that the President of the United States deployed the National Guard to Los Angeles was in response to the 1992 Rodney King riots. But importantly, in that case, California's Governor Pete Wilson actually requested the presence of the National Guard. And in fact, that is typically how this works. In fact, the only times, to our knowledge, that the President has deployed the National Guard without first seeking the approval of a state's governor is when President Eisenhower deployed the Arkansas National Guard alongside federal troops to integrate Central High School in Little Rock, and when President Lyndon Johnson sent troops to protect civil rights

• 9:53Melissa Murray?

  marchers in Selma, Alabama. So I think the real question that we have to ask here is, how much time will it take for this administration to start claiming that what they are doing in Los Angeles is about protecting civil rights?

• 10:07Leah Litman?

  You are manifesting a Truth Social post real hard right now.

• 10:11Melissa Murray?

  It's inevitable.

• 10:13Leah Litman?

  Yeah, I know.

• 10:14Kate Shaw?

  Okay. So both Eisenhower and LBJ relied, when they federalized the National Guard, on the Insurrection Act, right, this different statute, to deploy troops to protect, again, ordinary people pursuing civil rights.

• 10:30Melissa Murray?

  Real civil rights.

• 10:31Kate Shaw?

  Real civil rights. The literal opposite scenario of today. So according to California's complaint in the case that is now challenging the administration's actions in Los Angeles, the only time that this statute that is currently being relied upon, 12406, by itself has ever been used to justify federal military force was when Richard Nixon used it to authorize the National Guard to help with mail delivery because of a major postal strike. Again, nothing like the present.

• 10:59Leah Litman?

  But these guys do love Dick. Nixon. So Section 12406...

• 11:07Melissa Murray?

  Okay, how many cupcakes did you...

• 11:08Leah Litman?

  You have just three and just the frosting. So, you know, actually, I did have some pudding as well, banana pudding, so extra sugar. Okay, but the statute 12406 is usually the vehicle for federalizing the National Guard in service of the Insurrection Act. Here, the Trump administration has consciously decoupled them.

• 11:34Kate Shaw?

  At least for the moment, right? So, we should pause to explain the relevance of the Insurrection Act. So, there is another key federal law, the Posse Comitatus Act, which prohibits federal military forces from engaging in ordinary law enforcement, except under specific exceptions when authorized by Congress. And the Insurrection Act, which is really act, is one such exception. So, when it is invoked, it allows the federal military to enforce existing federal laws. It is a very big deal to unleash the federal military to enforce federal law, which is what the Insurrection Act allows, right? Most military personnel are not trained to do this kind of civilian law enforcement. They aren't trained to deal with civil unrest or engage in de-escalation. They are trained to defeat an enemy.

• 12:17Leah Litman?

  So, Kate's right. You know, Trump has employed the military to respond to political protests. But on the other hand, there are now no more black little mermaids. And you can use homophobic slurs, and you can deny women healthcare. So, who wouldn't take that deal? Right? Yes?

• 12:36Melissa Murray?

  Wrong.

• 12:37Leah Litman?

  Oh, okay. Anyways, without invoking the Insurrection Act, all the military is supposed to do right now is to protect federal personnel, like ICE officers, as those federal officials themselves enforce federal law, because the big manly men at ICE and DHS need some protection from the dancing Angelinos.

• 13:01Melissa Murray?

  And again, for context, it's really important to note here that the last time someone tried to stop a throng of people joyfully dancing in order to advance a Christian theocratic agenda was in 1984 in Footloose.

• 13:18Melissa Murray?

  And that is obviously very different from the circumstances here. In large part because everyone in Footloose was actually hot.

• 13:28Leah Litman?

  Also, for some reason, the specter of a bunch of very insecure men calling up the military to feel big and strong reminds me of the scene in Arrested Development where Buster Bluth, wearing a stripper's army costume, is holding a bunch of Beanie Baby, like stuffed animals, and says, "These are my medals, mother, from army."

• 13:56Kate Shaw?

  And I pulled that clip when Leah mentioned it. He's like, he holds up a stuffed seal and says, "The seal is for marksmanship, and the gorilla is for sand racing."

• 14:05Kate Shaw?

  But, you know, more seriously, back to what these guard members are supposed to be doing. It is obviously very difficult to police the line between enforcing the law and protecting the personnel who are enforcing the law, right? And along these lines, some reporting has already suggested that some federal military officials may be helping ICE carry out arrests and detaining some people until ICE arrives to make arrests. So we may be inching much closer to the invocation of the Insurrection Act and actual law enforcement than has officially even occurred.

• 14:34Leah Litman?

  But those aren't arrests arrests. They're just like a vibe.

• 14:37Kate Shaw?

  Okay, so it's fine.

• 14:38Leah Litman?

  Yes.

• 14:39Kate Shaw?

  Arrest-ish.

• 14:40Leah Litman?

  Arrest-adjacent.

• 14:41Kate Shaw?

  Right. Yeah, but I mean, just that obviously does. It reveals the way that federalizing the National Guard and deploying the military is allowing Trump to push the boundaries of authority, edging closer to invoking the act, and again, having the military enforce federal law in an American city.

• 14:59Melissa Murray?

  We should note at this point that California is not taking this lying down. And in fact, California's governor.

• 15:06Leah Litman?

  Yes.

• 15:07Melissa Murray?

  Let's give it up for California.

• 15:13Melissa Murray?

  California's governor Gavin Newsom, we call him Gavin with the good hair and the bad podcast.

• 15:21Kate Shaw?

  They're bad guests. I actually don't know, is it a bad podcast?

• 15:24Melissa Murray?

  Yes.

• 15:24Kate Shaw?

  Or just bad guests? Okay, all right, yes, a bad podcast.

• 15:26Melissa Murray?

  We all know the guests make the podcast, so.

• 15:28Kate Shaw?

  That is true.

• 15:29Melissa Murray?

  So Gavin Newsom, Gavin with the good hair, has filed a lawsuit challenging the lawfulness of the administration's actions. And specifically, California is arguing that Section 1204.6 specifies that when the president calls members of the State National Guard into federal service, those orders, quote, "shall be issued through the governors of the states." And California argues that that means that the statute contemplates some kind of consultation between the President of the United States and the governor of the implicated state in question. And that's because of reading, right? And textualism. And that is something that, according to California,

• 16:13Melissa Murray?

  did not happen here.

• 16:16Leah Litman?

  So on Wednesday, June 11, the Department of Justice filed its response, and predictably, they fucked it up. So the table of contents just said, "table of contents"? There was no actual content described. This seems like a metaphor. And the table of authorities, which is lawyers speak for a bibliography of laws and cases that support your argument, basically just said, "table of authorities." They didn't list any supporting sources, no actual authority supporting them. Also quite Freudian. It was mortifying for them, which of course made it awesome for us.

• 16:58Kate Shaw?

  They did include some actual pages of written argument, which claimed, in essence, that Section 12406's, quote, "through the governor language" just means the president has to use the governor as a pass-through, right? Like a message conveyor?

• 17:11Melissa Murray?

  Or an ATM.

• 17:12Kate Shaw?

  Yeah, that works too. But essentially, right, the statute doesn't require any substantive assent or approval, right? Like you put your request in, the National Guard comes out, no substantive role for you. So that's a theory, an ATM, a rubber stamp, because federalism, right?

• 17:29Leah Litman?

  So they're saying the statute doesn't actually contemplate the governor's involvement, even though it literally says, quote, "shall be issued through the governors of the state," end quote. They are foregoing textualism for texting, or maybe accidentally adding Gavin with a good hair to their Signal chats. Once again, Pamela Jo Bondy's DOJ is showing us that reading is what? Not fundamental. They can't read, so, yeah.

• 18:02Kate Shaw?

  So, a hearing on this question was actually held on Thursday, June 12th, in the Northern District of California before District Judge Charles Breyer. That is the other Breyer. Judge Breyer is the younger brother of retired Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer.

• 18:15Leah Litman?

  You didn't know that? I know. So, we are, we are quite possibly expecting a ruling, maybe during this live show, more likely right after, because Article 3 loves to fuck with the pod. Based on reporting, it does seem like Judge Breyer may rule that the administration's federalization of the National Guard was illegal. So, at one point during the hearing, he remarked, quote, "That's the difference between a constitutional government and King George. It's not just that the president can say something and anything goes," end quote.

• 18:59Leah Litman?

  It's like he knew we were recording this episode live from a venue across the street from Hamilton. We see you. We see you, Judge Breyer. Yeah. Yeah. So, DOJ's argument is that the president has the constitutional authority to federalize the military, which would mean he doesn't even need Congress's permission to do so. They also maintain courts owe complete deference to the president's determination to call up the Guard. So Judge Breyer summarized DOJ's position this way, quote, "If the president says that there is a rebellion, then there is a rebellion," end quote. Even if the rebellion is more of a vibe.

• 19:44Leah Litman?

  But Judge Breyer continued, quote, "How is that different from what a monarch is?" Which totally reminds me of, "I will send a fully armed battalion to remind you of my love."

• 19:56Kate Shaw?

  This is Melissa's Broadway debut and she is making the most of it.

• 20:00Melissa Murray?

  As Jonathan Goff, as King George said, "I'll be back and you'll be sorry."

• 20:08Melissa Murray?

  Okay, but Judge Breyer is asking the real questions here. What is the difference between a president deploying the military troops to effect law enforcement in a domestic context and a monarch doing the same thing? That is the essential question and waiting with bated breath for his answer.

• 20:29Kate Shaw?

  Yeah, and I think we are likely to get a ruling again, as Leah said, today. He suggested he was likely to try to get it done today, so potentially tonight. And the prospect of a ruling potentially against the administration makes all the more relevant some statements by one Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth, which is a phrase we still cannot believe we have to say, but we do, at a hearing in the Senate on Wednesday. So Hegseth, who in the immortal words of Melissa Murray, is the Brett Kavanaugh of Dan Bongino's.

• 21:01Melissa Murray?

  Okay, I actually, no, no.

• 21:03Kate Shaw?

  Oh, sorry, did I misquote you?

• 21:04Melissa Murray?

  You're not going to throw me under the bus again, like you did at the Senate, like where you were like.

• 21:11Melissa Murray?

  I did not say that.

• 21:12Kate Shaw?

  I did not say that.

• 21:13Melissa Murray?

  I said that Brett Kavanaugh was the Dan Bongino of Pete Hegseth.

• 21:17Kate Shaw?

  Oh, God, that's right, that's true, that's true. I've garbled it.

• 21:20Melissa Murray?

  That's what I said.

• 21:21Kate Shaw?

  Okay, well, so if Kennedy asks me that question, I'm going to be sure to get it right next time.

• 21:24Melissa Murray?

  Get it right.

• 21:26Kate Shaw?

  So, but this aforementioned Pete Hegseth, in response to a substantive question, declined to say whether the administration would obey court orders telling the federal military to stand down. He basically just deflected. He stated, quote, "What I can say is we should not have local judges determining foreign policy or national security policy for the country," right? Which was alarming on Wednesday and in light of the possibility of an actual ruling materializing is all the more alarming. So let's maybe do a lightning round on some assorted thoughts.

• 22:02Melissa Murray?

  Yeah.

• 22:03Kate Shaw?

  How bad is this?

• 22:04Melissa Murray?

  Well, so I think this feels...

• 22:05Leah Litman?

  Like the administration relitigating and reliving what they wanted to do with the BLM protesters in the summer of 2020, unleash violence and military force against the Black Lives Matter protesters. And they are also trying to normalize these emergencies, quote, "emergencies" that warrant assertions of extraordinary power. You know, apparently LA slash California slash the entire country is in rebellion or on the precipice of one, which purportedly requires military presence. Our trade deficits are an emergency requiring unprecedented tariffs. The fentanyl situation is too. The presence of students in the United States is a grave and dangerous threat to United States foreign policy, so they have to be kidnapped out the streets.

• 22:45Melissa Murray?

  Because of all the reading.

• 22:46Leah Litman?

  All the reading. And then, we, the United States, are under some kind of invasion by trend de arroga, which requires us to say, like, adju process. But the Hegseth statement is illuminating because when he says, "It's not for judges to determine national security policy for the country," they are framing everything as national security policy. So they are arguing everything they are doing is above the law and not subject to checks. And little wannabe fascist tyrants everywhere are trying to do the same thing. So the Missouri governor declared an emergency to mobilize a state guard in response to possible protests. And this is how it happens.

• 23:25Melissa Murray?

  I'm just going to say, none of this is surprising. If you're surprised, then you just tuned into this pod, because we've been saying this for forever. In Trump 1.0, the Brennan centers, Liza Gautier, basically had a cottage industry in basically studying all of the different emergency statutes that could authorize the president to act and to do these sorts of things without any kind of legal checks. And the only thing that really surprises me right now is how it took them this long to get to this point, right? I mean, it's June. I expected them to do this in February. So I guess that's restraint, like conservative values? Good, I guess. I also want to give a shout out.

• 24:09Melissa Murray?

  The California Attorney General's comms office is doing an absolutely amazing job. So California released a press release about its lawsuit against the Trump administration over this issue, and it had a great explainer on California's arguments, explaining everything that California was putting ...at the court, but then it had this CVS-style receipt where the section is titled, "What They Were Saying," which is like, just read that in your Joan Collins' voice. "What They Were Saying." Like, and they literally have clips and tweets of people like former South Dakota

• 24:52Melissa Murray?

  governor Kristi Noem saying things like, "South Dakota would never do anything to violate states' rights," and "Sending in the National Guard without the assent of South Dakota's governor, her, would violate states' rights." Hmm, very, very interesting.

• 25:13Kate Shaw?

  But South Dakota and California are fundamentally different, Melissa. That's what you're failing to grasp.

• 25:17Melissa Murray?

  Well, it's also only Democratic presidents need to seek consent from Republican governors, but the opposite isn't true.

• 25:22Kate Shaw?

  Yes, that's the principle.

• 25:23Melissa Murray?

  Article two.

• 25:24Kate Shaw?

  Yes, that's right.

• 25:25Melissa Murray?

  It's true.

• 25:26Kate Shaw?

  So, as we record this episode, we're sort of on the precipice of a pretty surreal split frame that we're expecting on Saturday. So first, we have Trump's military parade slash birthday party. Boo, yes. Rudely, that is also Melody's birthday. Melody wants you to know, yes, you can cheer for that, not for Trump, but for Melody. Melody wants you to know, if you're looking to celebrate either her birthday or Trump's, you can donate to the Missouri Abortion Fund. But I'm not wishing this on Melody's birthday, but as of Thursday, there were rumblings

• 26:08Kate Shaw?

  that thunderstorms might end up requiring the cancellation of the birthday parade, which, I mean...

• 26:14Melissa Murray?

  Let the heavens open!

• 26:18Kate Shaw?

  Like, possible divine intervention. But we also have scheduled, in terms of this split frame, the No Kings Protest planned all over the country on Saturday.

• 26:31Melissa Murray?

  The last big round of nationwide protests, the hands-off protests in early April, were actually pretty remarkable, including in very small towns, in very red states, and big cities like New York. And Trump has said some pretty ominous things about this convergence. So, let's roll that tape.

• 26:49Speaker 06

  We're gonna be celebrating big on Saturday. We're gonna have a lot of... And if there's any protests that wants to come out, they will be met with very big force. By the way, for those people that want to protest, they're gonna be met with very big force. And I haven't even heard about a protest. But, you know, this is people that hate our country. But they will be met with very heavy force.

• 27:11Melissa Murray?

  Very heavy force, if you missed it.

• 27:12Leah Litman?

  That's just locker room talk. It's just the way boys talk. You know, it also reflects a very well-known exception to the First Amendment for emotionally needy, insecure men who need to throw themselves military parades. Yes. Yeah. The First Amendment also notably does not apply on June 14th, which is Flag Day, since that is the Alitos' favorite holiday. And also, also, their least favorite amendment, at least when it's being exercised by people who aren't Republican.

• 27:49Melissa Murray?

  I'd forgotten about that.

• 27:50Leah Litman?

  Oh, Melissa, vergonya! Vergonya on you!

• 27:56Melissa Murray?

  It's... so much has happened.

• 27:58Leah Litman?

  Never forget the freak flags flying.

• 28:03Melissa Murray?

  All right, that is truly Martha Ann Arashur. True. Okay, so, just because the heavens are gonna open doesn't mean some people aren't going to let their freak flags fly. Some Trump officials have already started celebrating the president's birthday a little bit early. So, on Thursday, Secretary of Homeland Security Krispy Noem held a press conference. And she described the occupation/invasions mission in the following terms.

• 28:34Speaker 06

  We are not going away. We are staying here to liberate this city from the socialist and the burdensome leadership that this governor and that this mayor have placed on this country and what they have tried to insert into this city.

• 28:52Leah Litman?

  They are liberating LA the same way Vladimir Putin is liberating Ukraine.

• 29:01Leah Litman?

  Like, she just, she just comes out and says they are subjecting a major city to military occupation for politics because they disagree with the city and governor's politics. And unsurprisingly, California's elected leaders, including California Senator Alex Padilla, had some questions, which he tried to ask the secretary at the presser. And this was such a grave offense that the administration manhandled the senator and forced him out of the room. He was thrown to the ground and put in handcuffs. These goons assaulted

• 29:44Leah Litman?

  a duly-elected senator. They are larping a military dictatorship because free speech is so free, they are trying to free themselves of having to answer for their occupation of California. Like, they are trying to make it a crime to oppose dear leader and his policies.

• 30:03Kate Shaw?

  It is nakedly authoritarian conduct. And thus far, their defense seems basically to be that Senator Padilla was asking for it, that he hadn't identified himself as a senator, as if first that would make the assault okay if he was, say, a journalist asking the question. But also, there is video in which Padilla very clearly identifies himself as a senator. I don't think there's any question that they were on notice that he is a senator. And along these lines, we should note, they are not just detaining handcuffing and throwing to the ground opposition politicians. Representative LaMonica MacIver was indicted on three charges related to her exercise of her constitutional oversight

• 30:47Kate Shaw?

  authority and the resulting clashes outside of an ICE detention center in Newark, New Jersey. None of this is normal. Arresting and charging opposition political leaders for speech and oversight is authoritarian conduct. Full stop.

• 31:06Melissa Murray?

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• 31:49Melissa Murray?

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• 32:32Melissa Murray?

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• 32:54Melissa Murray?

  Okay, next up.

• 32:58Melissa Murray?

  We would like to briefly cover some of the developments involving Kilmar Abrego Garcia and the ongoing litigation about the scope and substance of the Alien Enemies Act. Now, listeners, you may recall that midway through recording our last episode, ABC News broke the story that Abrego Garcia was on a plane bound for the United States where he was going to be charged with various offenses related to the transporting of undocumented migrants. And we were processing that in real time, and as we noted in that last episode, it was a very big deal that Abrego Garcia was returned to the United States.

• 33:36Kate Shaw?

  I think that our view is that Abrego Garcia's case has been an enormous stress test for courts and for the rule of law, right? Like, the news cycle can move really fast, and it doesn't help that there is an ever-fresh supply of executive branch conduct that is genuinely shocking and appalling. But in this case, I really think that a concerted effort to maintain public attention on his case and pressure on the administration mattered. So recall, administration officials, including DHS Secretary Noem, Attorney General Pamela Jo Bondi, insisted that he would not ever return to the United States.

• 34:11Melissa Murray?

  Abrego Garcia is a citizen of El Salvador and should never have been in this country and will not be coming back to this country. There is no scenario where Abrego Garcia will be in the United States again. If he were to come back, we would immediately deport him again because he is a terrorist, he's a human smuggler, and he is a wife beater. He is not coming back to our country. President Bukele said he was not sending him back. That's the end of the story. If he wanted to send him back, we would give him a plane ride back. There was no situation ever where he was going to stay in this country. None, none. He would have come back, had one extra step of paperwork, and gone back again.

• 34:53Melissa Murray?

  But he's from El Salvador, he's in El Salvador, and that's where the president plans on keeping him. So shouty.

• 34:59Leah Litman?

  She should try smiling more.

• 35:02Kate Shaw?

  But despite the shouts, the unsmiling shouts, he returned, right? And an important takeaway here is pressure works.

• 35:18Melissa Murray?

  And not just pressure from the public, although I think the fact that so many people were engaged with the story. But I have been railing about this thing we call a Congress. So I'm just going to give credit where credit is due. I think it was really meaningful here that the Maryland congressional delegation took themselves to El Salvador, and I think it really made a difference. And so, again, Congress, more of this. And if you don't want to go to El Salvador, you can just show up to Senate Judiciary Committee hearings on Trump nominees and ask them questions, and that would be good, too.

• 35:52Leah Litman?

  Speaking of showing up, we are a Supreme Court podcast, so let's get to that business.

• 35:57Melissa Murray?

  I've forgotten about them, too.

• 36:00Kate Shaw?

  We would all like to, but regrettably, we can't. So, okay, first, a week ago, the Supreme Court actually issued its had its weird glitch. It issued its Monday orders list three days early, which is last Friday, blaming an apparent software malfunction that caused email notifications to go out early, which didn't instill a ton of confidence in how things are going over there.

• 36:20Leah Litman?

  Remember that time when there was a leak of an opinion back in 2022? And the chief justice says, "We are conducting a technology audit."

• 36:29Leah Litman?

  So, you know, I think they did. They did do that audit. It was just that the audit was a reenactment of that scene from Zoolander, where they're bashing the computers. Only here, it's Brett Kavanaugh grunting like a monkey, hopping around with a computer with Neil Gorsuch by his side. Anyways, so we got some opinions from the court, but none of the big ones. We got six opinions on Thursday, four unanimous, two with Gorsuch's dissents, though some significant concurrences. I think we'll just do two of them, though. Yeah.

• 37:00Kate Shaw?

  Yeah, all right. So, so let's start with AJT versus Aseaux Area School Districts, a case about what legal standard courts should use when reviewing a challenge to a school's failure to offer reasonable accommodations to students with disabilities, and in particular, when the challenge is brought under a statute, the Americans with Disabilities Act, or ADA, and Section 504 of another statute, the Rehab Act. This is actually an open question, because typically, challenges to schools' failures to provide reasonable accommodations proceed under another federal statute, the IDEA, rather than the ADA or the Rehab Act.

• 37:32Melissa Murray?

  So, the court granted cert in this case to decide whether a uniquely demanding standard should apply in the context of ADA and Rehab Act claims that involve students. So, let me put this differently. The standard would require students claiming a failure to accommodate their disability to show first that the school acted with bad faith or gross misjudgment, rather than just some deliberate indifference to the accommodation. So, a much higher standard for the students to make.

• 38:02Leah Litman?

  And listeners, you'll recall that the way the petitioners framed the question presented really triggered counsel for the respondent, longtime Supreme Court Advocate Lisa Blatt, who was defending the decision below in the school district. As she stressed at oral argument, she did not think the courts or her client were advocating a standard unique to the educational context, and she maintained that anyone who suggested otherwise was a big fat liar, leading to these exchanges.

• 38:31Melissa Murray?

  What the school district has said, which is what Monahan said-

• 38:35Speaker 01

  You believe that Mr. Martinez and the Solicitor General are lying? Is that your argument?

• 38:40Melissa Murray?

  At oral argument, yes, absolutely. It is not true that we-

• 38:43Speaker 01

  I think you should be more careful with your words, Ms. Blatt.

• 38:45Melissa Murray?

  Okay, well, they should be more careful in mischaracterizing a position.

• 38:48Speaker 01

  Ms. Blatt?

• 38:49Melissa Murray?

  Yeah.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  I confess I'm still troubled by your suggestion that your friends on the other side have lied.

• 38:56Melissa Murray?

  Okay, let's pull it up.

• 38:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think we're gonna have to here. And I'd ask you to reconsider that phrase.

• 39:02Melissa Murray?

  At oral argument-

• 39:04Speaker 01

  If I might.

• 39:05Melissa Murray?

  It was incorrect.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  If I, if I, incorrect is fine.

• 39:07Melissa Murray?

  Well, lying-

• 39:08Speaker 01

  People make mistakes.

• 39:09Melissa Murray?

  Okay.

• 39:10Speaker 01

  You can accuse people of being incorrect, but lying-

• 39:12Melissa Murray?

  That's fine.

• 39:13Speaker 01

  Ms. Blatt, if I might finish.

• 39:14Melissa Murray?

  Sure.

• 39:15Speaker 01

  Lying is another matter. One can interpret those perhaps different ways, but surely, a reasonable person could interpret them as arguing for a special rule in the educational context, correct?

• 39:26Melissa Murray?

  No, only because of the fact-

• 39:28Speaker 01

  Ms. Blatt.

• 39:29Melissa Murray?

  Okay, well, you, I mean-

• 39:31Speaker 01

  A reasonable person, all of those emphasize the unique context of primary and secondary education and the need for a special rule, don't they?

• 39:39Melissa Murray?

  Fine, but what I'm de-

• 39:40Speaker 01

  Fine. Fine, then would you withdraw your accusation? I'll withdraw it. Thank you. That's it.

• 39:48Melissa Murray?

  Okay, why does she have me rooting for Neil Gorsuch?

• 39:55Melissa Murray?

  I just want to say, if at any point in our interactions with each other I say to you, "Okay, that's fine," please understand that it is actually not fine at all. And I am going to go back to my desk, and I'm going to take out my Aria Stark burn book, and I'm going to write your name in it. It's not fine at all.

• 40:14Kate Shaw?

  And no one wants that. No. So, okay, in this case, in an opinion by the Chief Justice, the Supreme Court unanimously rejected Blatt's position, the idea that students had to show bad faith or gross misjudgment in bringing accommodation claims under the ADA and the Rehab Act. It's a position she said she wasn't taking at the oral argument, but it was a 9-0 ruling against her client. And that's the good news. But...

• 40:38Melissa Murray?

  But, okay, now is the time in the show where we have to have our reoccurring segment, we need to talk about Justice Thomas's concurrence. Okay, all right.

• 40:51Leah Litman?

  Why are you clapping? Why are people clapping for that?

• 40:54Melissa Murray?

  These are never good. This is never a good segment. So, we are workshopping, like, you know, we have the Cav currents for Justice Kavanaugh, so we're workshopping some names for the Justice Thomas concurrences. So, there is the Clarence currents, a little wobbly. A Claire currents, possibility. The Con Clarence, possibility too. I think you all are thinking of other things. Okay. But we're workshopping it, and our DMs are open to your suggestions, so please send those in. Anyway, back to our originally scheduled programming. Justice Thomas suggested, in this concurrence, the court had not, quote, "resolved what

• 41:34Melissa Murray?

  all plaintiffs are actually required to show under the ADA and Rehab Act." And I think we should take that as an invitation for more litigation.

• 41:44Leah Litman?

  Also, he just threw out that, like, "by the way, the spending clause might be unconstitutional." No, really, like, he suggests there is a constitutional problem with the way courts are applying Title II of the ADA.

• 41:57Kate Shaw?

  And as is typical in, I think I like Con Clarence. I think that's my pick for now. But, um, we had some applause. I think others also liked that one.

• 42:06Melissa Murray?

  You had two applause.

• 42:07Kate Shaw?

  Okay, okay, that's, all right. More than two, Melissa. Thank you.

• 42:14Kate Shaw?

  He would have gone further, of course, than the majority. So he explained, quote, "The district contends that Title II, which targets state and local governments, cannot be read to compel states to expend state funds to accommodate people with disabilities in accordance with federal standards. Seems like maybe a pretty scary invitation to reconsider the ADA more generally." And this was especially alarming because it was not a typical solo Clarence Currents. I guess I'll try another one. I still like conClarence better.

• 42:41Leah Litman?

  ConClarence is okay.

• 42:42Kate Shaw?

  But he was joined, so it wasn't just him. He was joined by the court's other great concurer, Justice Kavanaugh, the author of many riveting Cav Currents's. Good, yes. Boo his.

• 42:52Leah Litman?

  Okay. We call them Cav Currents's. They could also be BuzzFeed listicles. Yeah. But these two nasty boys say that the ADA might violate the spending clause because the courts are not requiring plaintiffs to show intentional discrimination to prevail on their ADA claims. But requiring plaintiffs to show intentional discrimination under Title II of the ADA would eviscerate reasonable accommodation claims.

• 43:23Melissa Murray?

  And Justice Sotomayor, who is joined in her concurrence by Justice Jackson, explained why the nasty boys are dead wrong about this. Hat tip to Elena Kagan. As Justice Sotomayor wrote, quote, "Persons with disabilities can, of course, lose access to benefits and services by reason of or because of their disabilities absent any invidious animus or purpose. Stairs may prevent a wheelchair-bound person from accessing a public place." Exactly. This is not hard, right? There are lots of ways in which people don't intend to discriminate, but the practicalities is that some people will be excluded from a state place. So why are you trying to change this, to require intentional discrimination,

• 44:05Melissa Murray?

  unless you actually want to undermine the prospect of civil rights lid...

• 44:12Leah Litman?

  No, no, no, no. No, it's because civil rights, because they're enforcing civil rights.

• 44:16Melissa Murray?

  Right.

• 44:16Leah Litman?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 44:17Melissa Murray?

  Of the people building stairs.

• 44:19Leah Litman?

  Yes, exactly. Yes.

• 44:21Melissa Murray?

  Justice for stair builders.

• 44:22Leah Litman?

  Yes.

• 44:22Melissa Murray?

  Exactly.

• 44:23Leah Litman?

  Yeah.

• 44:24Kate Shaw?

  Kavanaugh could get behind that.

• 44:25Melissa Murray?

  Oh, yeah. He wants to build.

• 44:27Kate Shaw?

  He is a builder. That's right. Okay, so the other case we're going to talk about is Martin versus United States, a case about whether and how you can sue federal officials when, as here, an FBI SWAT team mistakenly raids your house and roughs you up and destroys your property because a GPS device took them to the wrong house on the wrong street, not even the same number as the right house on a different street. And all of the particulars are a little murky because the official threw away the allegedly malfunctioning personal GPS device, as you do. But that's basically what happened.

• 45:03Leah Litman?

  Yeah, so the law here is super complex. So the first thing to know is the background principle that the government is generally immune from suit. That's called sovereign immunity, and it's kind of sketchy, but that's for another day. A federal law called the Federal Tort Claims Act, or the FTC-A, waives the government's immunity, so you can sue the government in certain circumstances. But that law also contains a lot of exceptions, meaning circumstances where the government continues to be immune. However, those exceptions also have exceptions, including a proviso, a proviso that removes that preserved immunity in circumstances involving law enforcement officials. Got it? It's fine. Neither do any of the Supreme Court justices, or at least the boys.

• 45:48Leah Litman?

  So, yeah.

• 45:49Melissa Murray?

  Basically, everyone in this room is prepared to decide this case right now.

• 45:52Leah Litman?

  Yeah.

• 45:53Melissa Murray?

  The particular provision that's at issue here is the law enforcement proviso that allows the government to be sued in circumstances involving certain kinds of law enforcement officials. And the court, in an opinion authored by Justice Gorsuch, clarified that the law enforcement proviso only overrides the government's sovereign immunity in cases of intentional torts, which is one of the statute's exceptions that allows the government to retain its immunity. If you're confused now, so are they. The law enforcement proviso, however, does not override any of the other exceptions. So, there's that.

• 46:31Kate Shaw?

  So, to translate a little bit, the reasoning so far actually kind of restricts plaintiff's ability to proceed in these suits against the government. But the court also held that the United States does not have a free floating supremacy clause defense that allows the federal government to prevail whenever officers can plausibly claim they were pursuing a federal policy. And that's something the 11th Circuit had found below. So here, the court reversed the 11th Circuit, but left that court, the application of this new opinion and a Sotomayor and Jackson concurrence made clear that they definitely think these claims should be allowed to proceed. And I think they have a better chance of proceeding now, but that all remains to be seen below.

• 47:12Melissa Murray?

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• 47:55Melissa Murray?

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• 48:40Melissa Murray?

  fantastic to make sure that my health from tip to toe. Is in tip top shape. I love the flavors. My favorite is the lemon bar. Tastes really good. A little zing, a little citrus. So if you want to find the perfect way to give back to others while fueling your body and your brain, Mosh bars are the perfect choice for you. Head to moshlife.com/strict to save 20% off plus free shipping on the bestsellers trial pack. That's 20% off plus free shipping on the bestsellers trial pack at M O S H L I F E dot com slash strict. Thank you, Mosh, for sponsoring this episode.

• 49:26Kate Shaw?

  All right. One of the best things about live shows is that we get to be joined by our friends. And the guests make the podcast, in the words of Melissa Murray. So we get to be joined by our friends in real life. It is actually quite rare that even the three of us get to be in the same place in real life. And it is even more rare that we get to hang out with one of our BFFs of the pod.

• 49:50Melissa Murray?

  New York. That's quite a wind up from Kate, but I think you know what's going to happen now. We are going to be joined by, again, a friend of the pod and a friend of civil rights more generally. Please. Real civil rights. Real civil rights. Please join us in welcoming to the stage the extraordinary Chase Strangio.

• 50:20Melissa Murray?

  If you're unfamiliar with Chase, then you've been listening to Gavin Newsom's podcast. And we know. But for those of you who are longtime listeners, I know I don't need to say this, but I will say it anyway. Chase is the deputy director for transgender justice and a staff attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union. And he also argued on behalf of parents of trans minors in the recent case, probably the blockbuster case of the term, United States versus Skermetti. So Chase, welcome back. We are so glad to have you. Thank you. I was really glad that there was a

• 50:59Speaker 07

  Visual of how to hold the microphone back there. So that was.

• 51:03Leah Litman?

  They're like, don't eat it.

• 51:04Speaker 07

  Yeah, don't eat it.

• 51:05Leah Litman?

  You're doing great.

• 51:06Speaker 07

  But now I'm almost self-conscious about it. Like, could it get too close? Like, yeah. But, yeah, I got it.

• 51:11Leah Litman?

  Okay, we're ready. Okay, so there is so much happening. We wanted to talk to you about some of the dynamics we've observed in the political and legal conversations over trans rights. And one thing, you know, we have noticed is the recent hesitation or unwillingness to defend trans rights in certain corners, which maybe is related to some efforts to blame the results of the 2024 election on trans people. I guess, Trace, like, what do you make? Or like, is there a retrenchment? And is this, you know, part of the process of social movements, progress, pushback, retrenchment, moving forward? Or what are we seeing?

• 51:52Speaker 07

  Have YouTube been listening to Gavin Newsom's podcast?

• 51:56Leah Litman?

  I don't even hate listen to that thing, but I've seen clips on social media.

• 52:01Kate Shaw?

  Well, so I like that orientation, that this is part of the process, that we will sort of inevitably move forward. And I like to believe that that's true. I think if that is the cycle, we are in the retrenchment. It's impossible to suggest otherwise. And for trans people in particular, it's a catastrophic retrenchment because we are being positioned as the fall guys, so to speak, for everything in just the classic scapegoating, where a group of people that represents less than 1% of the population is being blamed for societal problems and, you know, sort of endemic challenges. And all of a sudden, it's trans people's fault.

• 52:41Leah Litman?

  Yeah, right. Like, because a trans woman competed in swimming, the price of eggs went up, right? That's how the economy works?

• 52:48Kate Shaw?

  And now it's like darts.

• 52:49Leah Litman?

  Right, yes. Yeah, great. Let's talk about the Skermetti case in particular. There's been a lot of.

• 52:55Melissa Murray?

  Sort of, I guess, Monday morning quarterbacking on this about why the case was brought. Should the case have been brought? What do you make of both critics outside of the movement and within progressive circles who are fly specking or questioning the strategies around how rights advances are made or brought to the courts?

• 53:16Speaker 07

  Yeah, I mean, this is something that is, it's so difficult to comprehend in a certain way because if you think about the healthcare bans for trans adolescents, these started in 2021, very recently. This is medical care that people were receiving with the consent of their parents, the recommendation of their doctors. For decades in the United States, they were relying on this care. And then you go from zero states banning this care to half the country banning the care in a period of three years. And families are in absolute catastrophic circumstances. Kids are losing their healthcare. When the ACLU filed the first case in 2021, everyone thought this is a winning case. The governor of Arkansas vetoed the bill.

• 53:59Speaker 07

  Asa Hutchinson said, this is vast government overreach.

• 54:03Leah Litman?

  Liberal squish, noted liberal squish.

• 54:06Speaker 07

  Yeah, I mean, Asa Hutchinson loves trans people, as we all know. And he, too, thought this was a bridge too far. And that was the context in which we brought these cases into federal court. Republican governors vetoing the laws, kids losing healthcare, overriding the decisions of parents in the middle of the pandemic, when the states that were passing these laws were also like, oh, by the way, you can definitely try ivermectin, even though we know it doesn't work. And so that was...

• 54:34Leah Litman?

  And bleach, and bleach.

• 54:35Speaker 07

  And, yeah, and we have to be able to not send our kids to school in masks because of parental rights. And so that, there was this robust discourse of parental rights. These were states that the Republican governors even thought they were going too far. And there was such catastrophic harm. And so everyone was in support of bringing these cases into federal court. And when you bring a series of civil rights cases into federal court and a circuit split emerges, you cannot control whether the Supreme Court is going to hear a case concerning your civil rights. And I think this is really important. The other thing is, there's all sorts of people saying, well, you should have gone to state court, which, first of all... Yes, maybe we could have gone to state court in Alabama and it would have been incredibly

• 55:19Speaker 07

  unsuccessful. And also, state Supreme Court decisions are also reviewed by the Supreme Court. And so, you cannot say, in essence, what people are saying is, trans people should have waited and died, and then you can, in a few generations, if there's any of you left, vindicate your civil rights.

• 55:39Leah Litman?

  Yeah, and I guess like, part of the context for bringing these cases at that time is also, this is also happening in the wake of Dobbs, when state referenda that are protecting individuals' access to healthcare and individual civil rights are succeeding. So, it's within the context of that movement as well.

• 55:57Kate Shaw?

  And so, it's amazing that we're only talking about four years ago and the dynamics have so radically changed. So, maybe I'll ask a two-part question. One is, how are you thinking right now about courts in this moment? Not just the litigation, much of which has been ongoing for some time, but new challenges, if they need to be brought. And again, we don't want to ask you too much about a case that is currently pending, but if you want to talk with any more specificity about Skrmetti itself and the dynamics around bringing that case when you did, we would love to hear those.

• 56:26Speaker 07

  Yeah, I mean, I think for, I mean, how do I think of courts? In some sense, I think, of course, the way that I've always thought of courts, which is, this is a limited harm reduction tool that we have to keep utilizing because we can get temporary relief in contexts where the harms are so great that even the temporary relief is transformative. And so, to me, it's always a harm reduction. We're not getting liberation through the courts, and there's lots of reasons to be concerned, but we are bringing cases in state and federal court every single day at the ACLU, and we will continue to do so. So, that's, I would say, point one. And then, with Skrmetti, I guess I would just say two things.

• 57:08Speaker 07

  And again, coming back to the harm, I have been working on trans litigation for 15 years. I've been working on behalf of LGBTQ people for over 20 years. And...

• 57:20Speaker 07

  I've never felt so devastated and despairing as I did in between 2021 and 2023, watching people lose access to their lifeline. And, you know, it just felt like we were going to fight as much as we had to fight. And the Sixth Circuit decision that we sought cert from was so terrible and so intellectually dishonest and so harmful, not just for the Sixth Circuit, but for the three other circuits that followed it and, you know, for the people whose lives were impacted by it. And so, you know, we fight to get a less bad or good decision, you know, you never know. And so that, you know, I think that that's what it feels like with respect to Skermetti.

• 58:03Speaker 07

  But, you know, I'm thinking it's June in 1986, the Supreme Court upheld bans, criminal bans on sodomy for same-sex couples. And that was seen as obviously catastrophic for LGBT movement work, for gay people generally. And it's not like the movement was like, oh, well, we lost, we're going to give up. Whatever happens, we're not going to give up. We're going to keep fighting. And they overturned Bowers 17 years later in Lawrence.

• 58:28Leah Litman?

  Yeah. So I wanted to say something else about the decision that the Supreme Court is reviewing in Skermetti, because when you talk about, you know, how catastrophic it was and bankrupt it was, you know, one of the remarkable things about that opinion is the court, in explaining why laws that targeted trans people don't trigger heightened scrutiny, focused on this weird idea that actually, trans people are not minorities in need of judicial protection, but the real people, right, who were subject to attack were somehow political officials

• 59:12Leah Litman?

  who were attacking trans kids? Because the court noted, look, look at all the briefs in this case. Who are nonprofit organizations and medical organizations supporting? The trans kids, not the state. As if that somehow... proved that trans people didn't need the protection of the state because reasons. And when the reality is, like, those briefs just underscored that there is no case for these healthcare bans, right? Like, that's why the medical organizations are supporting the plaintiffs.

• 59:50Speaker 07

  Yeah, I mean, I will say, I remember the

• 59:53Leah Litman?

  I just wrote the opinion for you, Chief.

• 59:54Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 59:55Leah Litman?

  Just FYI.

• 59:56Speaker 07

  I mean, it's done.

• 59:57Leah Litman?

  Right.

• 59:58Speaker 07

  Um, in, in the appeal of the first preliminary injunction in the Arkansas case, the Attorney General's office got up before the Eighth Circuit, and the first point they argued was that trans people have a huge amount of political power. The other side is really obsessed with, with zeroing in on our

• 1:00:14Leah Litman?

  Couldn't you have done something about the 2024 election, then?

• 1:00:16Speaker 07

  Yeah. No, no.

• 1:00:18Leah Litman?

  I, I thought Justice Sotomayor addressed this very effectively in oral arguments, noting that, you know, this is not a situation where this group, which is about 1% of the population, is going to be able to harness the political process to affect the kinds of returns that they want. And I also note, this whole question of who exercises political power is not an idle question. This goes to the very heart of what it means to be classified as a minority for purposes of equal protection. So if you look at the Dobbs opinion, Justice Alito talks about how women are not lacking electoral and political power. That's not, you know, get yourself to the ballot box, ladies. It's get yourself to the ballot box so we can later talk about how you don't need to be considered minorities for purposes of the equal protection clause.

• 1:01:03Leah Litman?

  So, again, doomsday Cassandra here, raving harpy, but it's gonna happen. Correct?

• 1:01:08Speaker 07

  Correct.

• 1:01:09Leah Litman?

  Yes.

• 1:01:10Speaker 07

  Yeah. I mean, I, I do think that this, you know, series of exchanges at the, at oral arguments in Cremetti sort of foreshadow all of the ways in which, in, you know, Supreme Court precedent is under attack more, more broadly. And there's obviously this idea of, well, let's get rid of heightened scrutiny altogether.

• 1:01:26Leah Litman?

  No, this is the demise of equal protection as we know it.

• 1:01:29Speaker 07

  Yeah. And, and, and then this idea, too, that we can just, on the front end, say, you know what? Biological differences. Then, we, you know, we don't need to worry about it. But as if the invocation of biological differences wasn't the very thing used to subjugate women forever. And, and they're like, well, no, biology, QED, we win.

• 1:01:48Leah Litman?

  So, can I ask about another

• 1:01:49Speaker 07

  You have boobs, you can't have a job.

• 1:01:51Leah Litman?

  Right.

• 1:01:52Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:01:53Leah Litman?

  Certainly not as a bartender.

• 1:01:55Leah Litman?

  Can I ask a different question? And again, we need to talk about Justice Thomas's concurrence. This one was in Dobbs where Justice Thomas was like, while we're getting rid of abortion, there's a bunch of other decisions that I would like to reconsider, including Obergefell versus Hodges, the 2015 decision that legalized same-sex marriage. Last week, delegates of the National Meeting for Southern Baptist, which is the largest Protestant denomination in the country, endorsed a ban on same-sex marriage, including a call to ask the Supreme Court to overturn Obergefell. How does that development fit into the broader effort to shore up civil rights at a time when it seems the entire civil rights settlement is under threat from this administration and

• 1:02:40Leah Litman?

  those who support it?

• 1:02:41Speaker 07

  Yeah, I mean, this was an obvious development. And just shout out, it's the 10-year anniversary of Obergefell in 2020. So let's talk about the good thing. But I think, too, it should be a wake-up call to us that we have to stop being complacent. Because this was always the play. They never gave up the game on marriage equality. It was very clear. And actually, what's so frustrating about all of the calls from, I don't know, our so-called friends about why did you pick this fight about trans people in bathrooms? Guess how that fight started? It started the day after Obergefell was decided, as an effort to say, we're not giving up

• 1:03:24Speaker 07

  on marriage equality, we're going to undermine your equality efforts, and every single time you introduce a nondiscrimination measure, we're going to talk about trans people in bathrooms. And all of that work is being done to erode all of these equality norms for everyone, but also for cisgender gay people. And so this effort to divide us, this effort to act like, you know, if you just drop trans people, don't worry, your marriages will be safe, is patently absurd, and people should know that, and we can't be complacent, and we have to mobilize together.

• 1:04:00Kate Shaw?

  I actually wanted to ask about another case that we discussed last week. This literally like straight rights case, Ames, in which our take was that actually the court made it easier for straight plaintiffs to allege sexual orientation discrimination. But we thought there was a silver lining in the case and we're curious to get your take on it. And that silver lining was that the case does cite Bostock, right, which holds that discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity is sex discrimination under Title VII. And Sam Alito joined that opinion and he did not spontaneously combust. And that at least is something we thought of a positive sign. Did you read it the same way?

• 1:04:42Speaker 07

  I definitely did. And I think I was really expecting at least a concurrence, being like, I am going to at least continue to bodge my hatred of Bostock. And it relies very heavily on some of the sort of critical parts of Bostock that we continue to rely on in our litigation, including in Skrimmety, which obviously isn't a statutory case. But this idea about the protection flowing to the individual is, that was central to how Bostock was litigated. And so having nine members of the court agree with that and cite to Bostock repeatedly, it makes it a lot harder to then overturn Bostock.

• 1:05:15Kate Shaw?

  Yeah. I also kept wondering, like, did they just forget to append the Alito nastagram? And if they did, they just...

• 1:05:22Speaker 07

  Technical malfunction!

• 1:05:23Kate Shaw?

  Yeah, exactly. But it really matters that he just held his fire for whatever reason. And now that is a unanimous statement from the court.

• 1:05:30Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:05:31Kate Shaw?

  Do you know why he held his fire?

• 1:05:33Speaker 07

  I was like, well, I hope it's not something to do with a bargain in Skrimmety, but I guess we'll see.

• 1:05:39Leah Litman?

  Well, on that bright note, Chase, thank you so much for joining us.

• 1:05:45Speaker 07

  Thank you.

• 1:05:46Leah Litman?

  We really appreciate it.

• 1:05:53Melissa Murray?

  Strict scrutiny is brought to you by Fatty 15. Who likes aging? Not me. So far, aging has brought me only less sleep, lack of energy, maybe some stiff joints, and honestly, I'm not dealing well with it. I want to age and I want to age in a way that's healthy, where I maintain my energy and my sleep cycle, and I just do this better. Lots of people are spending lots of time and money and energy trying to figure out how to age properly. But what if you could just do it with a single healthy aging product? What if there was a healthy aging product out there that could help you, your loved ones, your parents, reverse aging at the cellular level and improve your long-term

• 1:06:34Melissa Murray?

  health and wellness? That's why I'm so excited to be talking with all of you about Fatty 15. I want to share with you C15 from Fatty 15. It's the first emerging essential fatty acid to be discovered in more than 90 years, and it is an incredible scientific breakthrough that supports our long-term health and wellness, and you guessed it, supports healthy aging. Fatty 15 co-founder Dr. Stephanie Van Watson discovered the benefits of C15 while working with the United States Navy to continually improve the health and welfare of aging dolphins. Based on over 100 studies, we now know that C15 strengthens our cells and is a key healthy aging nutrient, which helps slow down biological aging at the cellular level. Fatty 15 repairs

• 1:07:18Melissa Murray?

  age-related damage to cells, protects your cells from future breakdown, and activates pathways in your body that help regulate your sleep, cognitive health, and natural repair mechanisms that support your overall health. Fatty 15 has three times more cellular benefits than omega-3s or fish oils, and they taste better, too, honestly. What I love about Fatty 15 is that you just take one pill. It doesn't taste weird, it doesn't taste fishy, and it comes in this beautiful glass bamboo jar that you can just keep out on your countertop and just reach for it every morning. One and done. I love it. Fatty 15 is on a mission to optimize your C15 levels to help support your long-term health and wellness, especially as you age. You can get an additional 15% off their 90-day subscription

• 1:08:02Melissa Murray?

  starter kit by going to fatty15.com/strict and using code strict at checkout.

• 1:08:15Kate Shaw?

  All right, I prepared myself mentally. We're moving on to the game segment. And we really do love doing live shows and it is great to be in person with all of you. And so, as an expression of our appreciation and love, and also to lighten up this dark timeline somewhat, we thought we would have a little fun with some games.

• 1:08:31Melissa Murray?

  Okay, you totally made that sound like we're having a key party, okay? That was like very-

• 1:08:36Kate Shaw?

  Don't get excited, we're not-

• 1:08:38Leah Litman?

  Uh, so, we might have to interrupt the game. Oh no. Judge Breyer decided he wanted to participate in said podcast.

• 1:08:52Kate Shaw?

  Okay. We have a cameo from Judge Breyer?

• 1:08:55Leah Litman?

  We have a cameo from Judge Breyer, who has ruled that President Trump's use of the National Guard in LA was indeed unlawful.

• 1:09:14Leah Litman?

  Kate, Judge Breyer knows how scared you are of pop culture.

• 1:09:20Leah Litman?

  And he came-

• 1:09:20Kate Shaw?

  This timing was for me only.

• 1:09:22Leah Litman?

  To your rescue.

• 1:09:24Melissa Murray?

  I don't mean to be the fly in the punchbowl, but this is clearly going up on appeal. And I think Donald Trump, right now, is thinking, "You'll be back like before."

• 1:09:38Melissa Murray?

  It's my moment.

• 1:09:40Leah Litman?

  You deserve it all. Okay.

• 1:09:42Kate Shaw?

  It's not just gonna be Katanji Brown Jackson on Broadway. Normalize Black Women on Broadway.

• 1:09:51Leah Litman?

  So, as the audience for a live show, you get to see us try to process something in real time. I brought my phone up here-

• 1:10:03Kate Shaw?

  I did not, yes.

• 1:10:04Leah Litman?

  -just in case this happened. Okay, so, Kate, do you want to opine on some pop culture while I quickly skim this? So, I can say something?

• 1:10:13Kate Shaw?

  Should we proceed with the game? Or, so you're actually gonna read? How long is the opinion?

• 1:10:16Leah Litman?

  Uh, it's 36 pages.

• 1:10:18Kate Shaw?

  Yeah, this is literally how we do it, all right. She is a speed, an actual factual speed reader.

• 1:10:22Leah Litman?

  I'm already on page nine.

• 1:10:23Kate Shaw?

  And she's been talking the whole time. This is literally how Leah Litman rolls.

• 1:10:27Leah Litman?

  Yeah. So if you guys could amuse the audience for like a few minutes, I'll be back. Is this my moment?

• 1:10:35Kate Shaw?

  I think, I think it is.

• 1:10:42Melissa Murray?

  Let's talk about the game.

• 1:10:43Kate Shaw?

  All right, we'll set the game up. This is going to be a little surreal. We're going to set up a game about epic breakups. It's a breakups game.

• 1:10:52Melissa Murray?

  So here's the setup. We are going into summer. And usually, this is the time for a summer romance, a summer fling, something fun, flirty. It's not intended to last until September, like Danny and Sandy in Grease. Summer lovin', if you will. But sometimes, a summer romance ends a little early. And this summer, we have been plagued with some epic breakups that I think we really need to talk about on the pod, right? The girls have been fighting, right? The game is called Breakup Bracket. Okay? All right. Here's how the game works.

• 1:11:37Melissa Murray?

  We're going to give you some content about some pretty iconic breakups. But we're not just going to tell you about them. We're going to pit these breakups against each other, okay? For the title of most iconic breakup. So we're going to have two separate breakups. And we are each going to make the case for why that breakup should be considered the most iconic. And then, of course, we will involve you as the trier of fact, if you will. And you will help us determine which breakup was the most epic. And we're just going to go through a bunch of truly iconic breakups until we get to the most iconic.

• 1:12:15Kate Shaw?

  Until Leah finishes the opinion.

• 1:12:16Melissa Murray?

  Until Leah finishes the opinion.

• 1:12:17Kate Shaw?

  And then we'll talk about Brian. And then we'll come back and finish again.

• 1:12:20Melissa Murray?

  When we break up with democracy.

• 1:12:21Kate Shaw?

  That's right.

• 1:12:21Melissa Murray?

  Okay. Or break up with fascism for a minute.

• 1:12:24Kate Shaw?

  Yes.

• 1:12:28Melissa Murray?

  This is going to the court, so I'm just anticipating. Okay.

• 1:12:31Kate Shaw?

  First bracket, Melissa's going to argue the Donald Trump Leonard Leo breakup. And I will argue the Brett Kavanaugh John Roberts breakup.

• 1:12:41Melissa Murray?

  Okay.

• 1:12:43Melissa Murray?

  Let us begin. Many of you are already briefed on the particulars of the Trump-Leo breakup. But to summarize, a few weeks ago, after a three-judge panel of the Court of International Claims, which included a Trump-appointed judge, ruled against the president on his tariffs, the president, as is his wont, took to Truth Social to call Leonard Leo, quote, "a sleazebag and a bad person who, in his own way, probably hates America." Leo is, of course, the mastermind behind the Federalist Society's meteoric rise, and he was -- instead, you can hiss -- and he was instrumental in stalking the federal judiciary

• 1:13:27Melissa Murray?

  with conservative judges during the first Trump administration. Here is my case. Yes. I mean, I could just stop now, but I will say, this is obviously the more iconic breakup in this bracket, because the GOP really only loves three things, right? They love tax cuts. They love judges. They love a pre-1954 America. And this breakup basically cuts out two of those things. I'm going to let you guess which one sticks around.

• 1:14:04Melissa Murray?

  So this Leo-Trump bromance has given us Neil, Brett, Amy on the Supreme Court, pretty sizable. It has also given us Jim, Andy, Kyle, Lawrence, and Justin. And no, that is not a struggly 2000s boy band like 98 Degrees. I know, you will not stand for this Nick Lachey erasure. These are the names of Trump-appointed circuit judges, and these are the same judges who basically stay auditioning for the post of America's next top justice.

• 1:14:43Melissa Murray?

  So the fact that Donald Trump and Leonard Leo are no longer together, I think, is pretty epic. Do you agree?

• 1:14:57Kate Shaw?

  I feel like, that's always a hard act to follow. I will say, just look at Brett's face in that picture. That is not spliced together. That is an actual picture of the two of them, Melody found.

• 1:15:08Melissa Murray?

  Wait, wait.

• 1:15:09Kate Shaw?

  That's powerful evidence.

• 1:15:10Melissa Murray?

  Of what?

• 1:15:11Kate Shaw?

  Of what they had, once, but no longer seem to have. So basically, John Roberts and Brett Kavanaugh were once, like, John Roberts and John Roberts' number-one fanboy. That is who Brett Kavanaugh was on the D.C. Circuit. There was a profile that McKay-Coppins wrote of Kavanaugh that recounted that in Kavanaugh's D.C. Circuit chambers, there was a blown-up photograph of Kavanaugh with the chief on the wall. Friends reported that Brett idolizes John Roberts. Quote, this is what an actual source told the reporter, "If you're looking for soulmate types, that's them." So, going from number-one fan to semi-hater is, I think, a pretty big thing. It has definitely created a more precarious situation at the court when it comes to restraining

• 1:15:55Kate Shaw?

  the Trump administration, because Brett is not in play in a lot of really important executive power cases. And so it comes down to the Democratic appointees, and potentially John, and then maybe Amy. And, you know, did the chief ghost Kavanaugh for Barrett? Or has Coach Kavanaugh fallen prey to the wiles of Sam and Clarence? But either way, the consequences for democracy are quite significant, so...

• 1:16:19Melissa Murray?

  I want to rebuttal.

• 1:16:22Melissa Murray?

  Where is the evidence, other than he's not with the chief justice all of the time, that they've actually broken up? We haven't even gotten the big cases from this term.

• 1:16:31Kate Shaw?

  That's true. So I'm happy to revisit this debate after, you know, July 1st. I'm...

• 1:16:37Melissa Murray?

  But have you met your burden?

• 1:16:39Kate Shaw?

  Leah can decide.

• 1:16:41Leah Litman?

  Okay, here's the thing. I'm going to conclude this is a tie. It's a draw. Because both of these, quote, "breakups" are like the Spider-Man meme, where one Spider-Man is pointing at the other Spider-Man, and they're the same person.

• 1:16:55Kate Shaw?

  Yes.

• 1:16:55Leah Litman?

  So, I'm not convinced. It's a draw. Sorry.

• 1:16:58Kate Shaw?

  Okay, we'll take a draw.

• 1:16:59Leah Litman?

  Congratulations, you're both winners.

• 1:17:00Kate Shaw?

  Thank you.

• 1:17:01Leah Litman?

  Okay. Speaking of winning, a quick recap of... ...of the opinion/ order Judge Breyer just gave us. And I apologize if this is a little rough. I was literally taking screenshots of different opinions, parts of the opinion on my phone that I wanted to be sure I touched on. So, first Judge Breyer rejects the government's argument that the court cannot review the grounds for the president's federalization of the National Guard. So he says, yes, of course, courts owe the president deference. They can't review the president's factual determinations, but at least in the context

• 1:17:41Leah Litman?

  of domestic matters, courts get to decide whether the president correctly applied this statute. So, the president invoked two grounds for federalizing the National Guard. One is that the country was, as we jokingly said, in rebellion.

• 1:17:56Melissa Murray?

  That was the dancing.

• 1:17:58Leah Litman?

  Yeah, that was the dancing part. The second is that the federal government wasn't able to execute federal law without the involvement of the National Guard. So on the rebellion front, Judge Breyer is basically like, get real, guys. This isn't a rebellion. This is called First Amendment activity and protest. Exactly. Exactly.

• 1:18:24Melissa Murray?

  Shorter, Charles Breyer. Everybody cut. Everybody cut.

• 1:18:29Leah Litman?

  Charles Breyer also invokes some interesting sources to support the idea that rebellion really is not synonymous with political protests. So he cites Wuthering Heights. Oh, yeah. Examples of this usage include spiritual rebellion. "The event of this evening has reconciled me to God and humanity. I had risen in angry rebellion against providence," quoting Bronte, Wuthering Heights.

• 1:18:59Melissa Murray?

  Okay. He's literally stunting on the...

• 1:19:03Leah Litman?

  I know.

• 1:19:04Melissa Murray?

  He's like, "I read. I can read."

• 1:19:09Leah Litman?

  Unlike you buffoons. So he also goes through different examples about how, of course, you know, there is some violence here, but violence might be necessary for a rebellion but isn't sufficient. And he goes through, again, different examples of how there has been, you know, some violence in political protests throughout American history. He also notes that, you know, protest against the federal government is a core civil liberty protected by the First Amendment, and so that cannot justify finding a rebellion. Yes. Okay.

• 1:19:45Leah Litman?

  So, then, he also concludes that the president did not actually sufficiently determine that it wasn't possible to execute federal law in the absence of federalizing the National Guard. So he says, "While ICE was not able to detain as many people as defendants," read Stephen Miller, "believe it could have, ICE was nonetheless able to execute the federal immigration laws." Then on this point about whether the order has to go through the governor, Judge Breyer agrees with the state that, of course, these orders have to go through the governor as the statute says. Reading! Reading, according to Judge Breyer, is fundamental, right?

• 1:20:30Leah Litman?

  So, very, very good there. He notes that, of course, the order the president said, wrote at the top of it, through the governor, that he says is not sufficient to actually satisfy the statute. Also, he notes that, you know, again, it just doesn't matter, that they, again, told the governor, allegedly, instead it requires more meaningful consent.

• 1:20:59Leah Litman?

  Finally, Judge Breyer adds that they are in violation of the 10th Amendment because they are usurping the state's police power. Federalism. Federalism. It's a thing.

• 1:21:13Melissa Murray?

  He's totally stunting on them.

• 1:21:15Leah Litman?

  He is. States' rights, you bitches.

• 1:21:21Leah Litman?

  So...

• 1:21:22Melissa Murray?

  It's not just for integration anymore.

• 1:21:24Leah Litman?

  No. It is not. I also wanted to note some real troll energy in this opinion, which I have to say, respect to. So toward the closing of the opinion, Judge Breyer suggests that the federal government is harming California because they are depriving the state for two months of its own use of National Guard members to, among other things, combat the fentanyl trade.

• 1:21:52Kate Shaw?

  That's good.

• 1:21:52Leah Litman?

  Oh, dang, Gina. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Judge Breyer has also been reading the news because he ordered the plaintiffs to post a nominal bond of $100. This is important because there's currently a proposal in Congress that would limit courts' authority to hold officers in contempt of violating court orders that don't have a bond accompanying them. So Judge Breyer is dotting his i's, crossing his t's, and ensure he can haul these goons off to jail if need be.

• 1:22:29Melissa Murray?

  No, wait, wait.

• 1:22:31Melissa Murray?

  You know what would have been absolutely iconic?

• 1:22:34Leah Litman?

  What?

• 1:22:35Melissa Murray?

  If he'd made the bond $1, like Taylor Swift and nominal damages. That would have been iconic.

• 1:22:40Leah Litman?

  Iconic? I'm still gonna classify this opinion as iconic.

• 1:22:44Melissa Murray?

  No, but the opinion, I mean, it could have been even more iconic.

• 1:22:46Leah Litman?

  Yes. I mean, some notes. I mean, the guy did turn it around in a few hours.

• 1:22:50Melissa Murray?

  I mean...

• 1:22:51Kate Shaw?

  Impressive. Wait, so I don't want to put you on the spot, but does he do anything to stay the order at the end? Like, what is it? What do we know about?

• 1:22:58Leah Litman?

  I hate... It is ordered. So a hearing on this order to show cause will be held on June 20th.

• 1:23:03Kate Shaw?

  Okay.

• 1:23:05Leah Litman?

  The court stays this order until noon on June 13th.

• 1:23:08Kate Shaw?

  Okay, so we have tomorrow.

• 1:23:10Leah Litman?

  24 hours.

• 1:23:11Kate Shaw?

  Okay, 24-hour stay, so they go to the 9th.

• 1:23:13Leah Litman?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:13Kate Shaw?

  Right now. We should come back tomorrow and do this again.

• 1:23:16Leah Litman?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:21Melissa Murray?

  Don't worry, we have more games. Don't worry.

• 1:23:23Kate Shaw?

  We actually do, we had to cut some.

• 1:23:25Melissa Murray?

  We actually do have more games.

• 1:23:26Kate Shaw?

  But we're busy tomorrow. But wow.

• 1:23:30Kate Shaw?

  That is both a great result, and I just love that all of you got to see Lea Lippman do this in real time.

• 1:23:36Melissa Murray?

  Real time.

• 1:23:37Kate Shaw?

  That is iconic. The opinion is iconic, and that display was iconic.

• 1:23:41Leah Litman?

  These guys can't fucking read. I will read an opinion on a stage live that is 36 pages.

• 1:23:49Kate Shaw?

  You did it.

• 1:23:49Leah Litman?

  And yet, like, just...

• 1:23:53Melissa Murray?

  I mean, they are the Lea Michele of administrations.

• 1:23:59Melissa Murray?

  Too soon? Too soon?

• 1:24:00Leah Litman?

  Just a little.

• 1:24:01Melissa Murray?

  She clarified that. She said she can read.

• 1:24:03Leah Litman?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:24:04Melissa Murray?

  It's just a meme at this point.

• 1:24:05Leah Litman?

  Right.

• 1:24:06Melissa Murray?

  Right. Okay, can we go back to the game?

• 1:24:07Leah Litman?

  Yes, please. Can I play some of the game? Can I play some of the game?

• 1:24:10Kate Shaw?

  I think it would be hard to go back to the game if it were a different outcome in this opinion, but I think that, like, I feel buoyed, and I'm ready to do it. Let's finish it. Yeah?

• 1:24:19Melissa Murray?

  All right, back to the breakup bracket. Bracket number two. Donald Trump and Elon Musk.

• 1:24:27Kate Shaw?

  All right, I'm going to give the very quick and straightforward case for Trump-Musk. I mean, you know, you go from best buddy slash co-president to tweeting and then deleting allegations the president is in the Epstein files, and then the president threatens to criminally prosecute you if you support the other party. I mean, that's a big delta, right? Between the relationship as it was and the relationship as it is or was like a couple of days ago, right? Things got a little complicated in the last couple of days. But this is a very big deal breakup. Iconic? I'm not even sure I want to use that word, but it's a big deal breakup. That's my succinct case for this as the winner.

• 1:25:03Melissa Murray?

  Okay, hear me out. Let me tell you the ballad of John and Sam. So these two were not just casual acquaintances. They actually came to the Supreme Court as brothers in 2005. Both were nominated by George W. Bush within months of each other. And obviously, one was the chief, the other was a spare, if you will.

• 1:25:29Melissa Murray?

  But they were pretty much in step for most of their early careers on the court. I mean, look at them. They're even dressed alike, right? Like, "You wear the red tie." "No, you wear the red tie." Like, "Why don't we both wear the red tie?" And they're doing it. So what makes this a new era in their bromance is that now the spare is publicly shit-talking the chief. And he's possibly doing it on background to the press. And honestly, I'm just gonna say, it's giving Prince Harry and Prince William, but without the very hot American wife.

• 1:26:10Leah Litman?

  That checks out. So I'm gonna play judge, since I just read and processed a judge's order. So now that Elon is walking back this breakup, real "we break up, we make up" energy, or as Taylor Swift foretold, "I say I hate you, we break up, you call me I love you." But when Elon tweets, "I regret some of my posts about President Trump last week, they went too far," this one definitely goes to John Roberts and Sam Alito, because Sam Alito knows how to hold a fucking grudge. Like, they are never, ever getting back together. Like, ever.

• 1:26:47Melissa Murray?

  Big Virgo energy.

• 1:26:48Leah Litman?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:53Melissa Murray?

  All right, next category, round three. This is friends to frenemies. And we're gonna let Kate judge this one for reasons. Okay. This bracket pits, ready? NeNe Leaks and Kim Zolciak, "Bravo, Andy is merely a bystander in all of this," against Taylor Swift and Blake Lively. Okay. So let me explain, for those of you who are unfamiliar with The Housewives universe, the NeNe/Kim fallout. This happened at an Atlanta reunion, and the breakup was so completely epic.

• 1:27:34Melissa Murray?

  I mean, this is the breakup that gave us NeNe Leaks's most iconic line ever: "Close your legs to married men."

• 1:27:47Melissa Murray?

  Is that the most iconic line from Atlanta? I don't know. I think "Hugo and Chekne Boo" might be more iconic.

• 1:27:54Leah Litman?

  That's fair. But that just gives me a leg up to argue that the breakup between Taylor and Blake is the more iconic one. And there's a legal hook to this one as well, which is that Taylor-

• 1:28:05Melissa Murray?

  There was adultery in the other one.

• 1:28:06Leah Litman?

  Well, OK. But this is Taylor Swift, who was irritated that she got swept up into Blake's legal fight with Justin Baldoni, during which Taylor was subpoenaed. And maybe, maybe, to get back in Taylor's good graces, there's reports that Blake might subpoena Scooter Braun.

• 1:28:25Kate Shaw?

  All right. I get to judge this one. I would normally go with Taylor and Blake because I've heard of everyone involved. But I'm hoping they get back together. I am not convinced it is a real breakup. So I shall go with Nene and Kim.

• 1:28:41Leah Litman?

  Nene.

• 1:28:42Kate Shaw?

  Even though I literally just learned and apparently didn't even retain who those people are. That's my ruling.

• 1:28:49Leah Litman?

  All right.

• 1:28:50Kate Shaw?

  OK, let's move on to another category. I'm actually blushing hard. All right, we're going to call this one Toxic Men and the Women Who Try to Love Them. OK, well, I mean, not like that. She didn't try to love him like that. But that is Sandra Day O'Connor and Justice Scalia. O'Connor was notably cooler towards Scalia relative to her other colleagues as their time on the bench went on. She famously tried to get all the justices to get along. Scalia was really antagonistic toward her. Early on, he described one of her opinions as irrational and not to be taken seriously.

• 1:29:34Kate Shaw?

  Shockingly, did not endear him to his new colleague.

• 1:29:38Melissa Murray?

  Obviously, this is Ben Affleck and all of the Jennifers in the world.

• 1:29:45Melissa Murray?

  So Ben Affleck has just gone from Jennifer to Jennifer and progressively flamed out in a more fantastic way with each of them. Jennifer Lopez for the second time, and I truly was rooting for them. I know. I really, really was. So I think at this point, this is an epic breakup, and not only is it epic, I think it must lead Ben Affleck to the self-realization that, in fact, no Jennifer is truly the love of his life. And in fact, the real loves of his life are Boston, Dunkin' Donuts, and Matt Damon.

• 1:30:19Leah Litman?

  Melissa, I know when I've lost an argument, I'm just gonna concede here. Ben and Jen's are the more iconic breakup. You win.

• 1:30:30Melissa Murray?

  I've been winning all of these. Maybe I should have been a litigator.

• 1:30:33Leah Litman?

  No?

• 1:30:36Melissa Murray?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:37Leah Litman?

  Let's make you judge for the next bracket, okay?

• 1:30:40Melissa Murray?

  Okay.

• 1:30:40Leah Litman?

  So we can make it a fair fight.

• 1:30:41Melissa Murray?

  Okay. All right, so this bracket, round five, Pitt's Chief Justice Warren Berger and former Associate Justice Harry Blackman against Taylor Swift and Carly Claus. Kate, you will argue for Taylor and Carly.

• 1:31:01Kate Shaw?

  No.

• 1:31:02Melissa Murray?

  No. Just kidding. Thank you. Felt a little disrespected there. Kate, why don't you explain the Blackman-Burger beef?

• 1:31:15Kate Shaw?

  Way, way more comfortable on this terrain. All right. So we are talking about the once-deep friendship between Warren Berger and Harry Blackman. It started in a St. Paul, Minnesota kindergarten classroom, continued through decades of very intense correspondence, saw Blackman as best man in Berger's wedding, they were simultaneously on two different courts of appeals, and then had this epic reunion at the Supreme Court. But that reunion proved fatal for the Minnesota Twins. They grew further and further apart during their time on the court. This was in part because of Blackman's steady shift to the left, but also in part because of Berger's sort of imperious style as Chief Justice. And by the end of their time on the court, these once, like, genuine, great friends were virtual

• 1:31:59Kate Shaw?

  strangers, if not outright enemies.

• 1:32:03Leah Litman?

  I know, it sounds intriguing, but here's the thing. The Kayla breakup gave us "Down Bad," where Taylor sings about how I lost my twin. It also gave us "It's Time to Go," where the words of a sister come back in whispers. Also, I'm glad we reserved this venue for 24 hours, because I'm gonna be here all night making my case. But, okay, so at the final night in the Los Angeles concert, where Carly showed up unexpectedly, I was literally standing between them, in Taylor's line of sight, to Carly Claus, and I can just tell you, this breakup wins. And in closing, and if you know, you know, and you'll know I've won this one, I'll just

• 1:32:48Leah Litman?

  say, it hits different with you. And with that, I rest my case. I won.

• 1:32:56Kate Shaw?

  Melissa, do you want to make a ruling?

• 1:32:59Melissa Murray?

  Great. That's like such Pamela Jo Bond-y energy for you.

• 1:33:02Leah Litman?

  I won.

• 1:33:03Melissa Murray?

  That's way harsh, Ty. This is a really tough one. I really, I loved your whole exposition, Kate. I like that you humanized it, brought it back to kindergarten, but...

• 1:33:17Kate Shaw?

  Those letters are intense.

• 1:33:18Melissa Murray?

  Yeah. But she had quotes, so I'm gonna give it to Leah.

• 1:33:20Leah Litman?

  Thank you, thank you.

• 1:33:21Melissa Murray?

  All right. Final bracket, round six. This one pits Donald Trump and pre-J.D. Vance Mike Pence against Tom Sandoval and Arianna Maddox. Kate, I will let you argue on behalf of Trump-Pence.

• 1:33:41Kate Shaw?

  Yeah, clearly, clearly that's the one I'm doing. Okay, again, a fairly straightforward case. There was a literal riot where people were calling to hang Mike Pence. President Trump threw his VP under the bus, placed him in mortal danger by encouraging a riot in which people were calling for Pence to be hanged. High stakes for the relationship, high stakes for democracy. Seems like a bigger deal breakup than, than the other one.

• 1:34:09Leah Litman?

  It sounds like a big deal, but Donald Trump told me that was a day of love. And there was no love in that post-filming episode of Vanderpump Rules. Because when Tom asked Ariana if she needed anything, her response was, "For you to die." It generated the iconic, "I regret ever loving you, and I don't care about fucking Raquel." Plus, she's now the host of Love Island, which, despite everything you may have heard, is not a show about vacationing January 6 rioters. And unlike Trump and Pence, this breakup has its own name. Scandival, what's the phrase for the failed Trump and Pence relationship? There isn't one.

• 1:34:52Melissa Murray?

  I believe it's insurrection. I'm gonna give this one to Kate. All right. We gotta land this plane, this Qatari jet, this emolument, if you will. So we are going to end the show by doing what we always do, which is recounting our favorite things from the weeks, the best things that we've read, seen, watched, whatever. So Kate, kick it off.

• 1:35:19Kate Shaw?

  All right, and we're gonna be very quick. So first, Melody has another podcast.

• 1:35:23Melissa Murray?

  She cheats on us.

• 1:35:24Kate Shaw?

  In addition to our podcast, The Culture Study Podcast with Anne Helen Peterson. And they'd had a great interview last week with Sophie Gilbert, author of Girl on Girl, a really excellent book we've all recommended, so check that episode out. And the only, the other thing I'll recommend is Steve Lattick, friend of the pod, has, his latest installment of One First Street is about federalizing the California National Guard. He is just an incredible resource on all of the deep, sort of, dimensions of the legal questions we were discussing here. So read that and also follow him as this continues to unfold. And finally, this isn't a thing I read or watched or anything, but I want to call out Argent, the designer, whose clothing we are all wearing tonight.

• 1:36:05Kate Shaw?

  We are very colorful and their wonderful clothing is the reason why.

• 1:36:10Melissa Murray?

  Ambition suits us.

• 1:36:11Kate Shaw?

  I guess so.

• 1:36:13Leah Litman?

  So my favorite things are Michelle Goldberg's piece in The New York Times, "This Is What Autocracy Looks Like." And yeah, that was phenomenal if you haven't read it. Also, I was also gonna say our Argent fits. Thank you, Argent, for making women's workwear fun.

• 1:36:29Melissa Murray?

  Okay, I would like to recommend Ellie Mistal's latest column in The Nation, "What the Hell Is Posse Comitatus Anyway?" It's a great primer on the Reconstruction era roots of the Posse Comitatus Act, as well as a very bracing distillation of everything that could go wrong with what is happening in L.A. and elsewhere. I'll also recommend Amazon Prime's adaptation of Alephair Burke's fantastic book, "The Better Sister," with Elizabeth Banks and Jessica Biel. I also want to shout out my mom friend, Sarah Sclarandis, who provided the amazing shoes that Kate is wearing.

• 1:37:04Melissa Murray?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:07Melissa Murray?

  Kate was like, "What do you think?" And I'm like, "I have the perfect shoe for you." And she's like, "What does it look like?" I mean, it's a leopard print, but blue. And Kate looked scared.

• 1:37:15Kate Shaw?

  I did, but I generally do what Melissa tells me, and it generally works out well, so.

• 1:37:18Melissa Murray?

  And I think it worked out well here. So we are super grateful to Argent and Sally Christensen and Sarah for helping get us dressed. Again, women's workwear does not have to be terrible. It can be fun. Someone, please tell the folks in the Trump administration.

• 1:37:35Melissa Murray?

  So to wrap up, we have some final thank yous. Thank you to our tour manager, Sophie Eisenstadt. Thank you.

• 1:37:44Melissa Murray?

  Thank you to our producer, Melody Rauel.

• 1:37:50Melissa Murray?

  Thank you to our intern, Jordan Thomas.

• 1:37:55Melissa Murray?

  And thank you to the amazing Detox for opening the show. When I say it was the fucking best to be able to appear on a stage after Deep Talks, I mean hashtag goals.

• 1:38:09Melissa Murray?

  Thank you, New York!

• 1:38:10Kate Shaw?

  Thank you so much, New York!

• 1:38:15Leah Litman?

  Hi, it's Leah and here's your post-live show update on the military occupation of Los Angeles and the legal challenges to it. On Friday, the US Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit issued administrative stay of Judge Breyer's decision. An administrative stay puts the decision, that is Judge Breyer's decision, on hold until the Court of Appeals decides whether to grant a more long-lasting stay. Judge Breyer's decision had invalidated Trump federalizing the California National Guard, and the Ninth Circuit scheduled very quick briefing and argument to decide whether to grant a more long-lasting stay. The argument is scheduled for the 17th, Tuesday, so the order isn't going to go into effect before then. Judge Breyer's decision did not address the lawfulness of Trump deploying the Marines.

• 1:38:58Leah Litman?

  In order to federalize the California National Guard, the Trump administration relied on a statute 12406 that addresses the National Guard, so the administration had to rely on another source of authority to deploy the Marines. And Breyer's order only addressed the lawfulness of calling up the California National Guard under 12406. Breyer determined that it was unnecessary and too soon to determine whether the California National Guardsmen were violating the Posse Comitatus Act by engaging in ordinary law enforcement. Events seem to have superseded poor Judge Breyer, just like his order kind of threw a wrench into our live show. Specifically, there have now been reports of Marines detaining American citizens, which at the time Judge Breyer issued his order had not yet clearly materialized.

• 1:39:40Leah Litman?

  That matters because it tees up the question of not only whether the president had the authority to call up the Marines under these circumstances, but also whether the actions that the Marines are taking constitute the kind of ordinary law enforcement that the Posse Comitatus Act prohibits the military from engaging in. Oh, and who was the citizen who was detained by the Marines? A black veteran. And again, this looks pretty illegal under the Posse Comitatus Act because detaining someone who purportedly crosses a taped boundary, that's kind of ordinary law enforcement. That's not protecting federal personnel or property. And that's all the updates we have for now. We had a wonderful time in New York City. If you were one of the people who stuck around after the show for the meet and greet and

• 1:40:22Leah Litman?

  took a picture, we would love to be able to see those pictures, so please feel free to send them to us. Thanks, everyone.

• 1:40:28Kate Shaw?

  Just a couple of things to tell you about before we go. First, Inside 2025. If you join the Friends of the Pod community today, you can unlock subscriber-only shows like Inside 2025, plus lots of other exclusive perks. We actually, Leah and Melissa and I, hosted the last episode of Inside 2025, and we pulled back the curtain on what really happens inside the Supreme Court, especially in June, when the opinions are flying fast and furious. So subscribe to the Friends of the Pod community today to unlock Inside 2025 and so much more. That's at crooked.com/friends. Also, as you of course know, there was an outpouring of overwhelmingly peaceful protest activity in Los Angeles this past weekend

• 1:41:12Kate Shaw?

  in response to ICE raids targeting community members. Trump is escalating the situation. He's deployed the National Guard to LA in hopes of seizing more power for ICE and for the presidency, and also seems to be trying to turn the media against the protesters. We've made very clear, we think this is a blatant abuse of power. It is designed to intimidate families and stoke fear and break the spirit of the community. And there are lots of important ways to respond. One way is what our friends at Vote Save America are doing, which is raising money for immigration defense groups. So you can go to votesaveamerica.com/support if you want to donate what you can to help in that effort. This was paid for by votesaveamerica.com, not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 1:41:57Melissa Murray?

  Strict Scrutiny is a Crooked Media production hosted and executive produced by Leah Littman, me, Melissa Murray, and Kate Shaw. Produced and edited by Melody Rauel. Michael Goldsmith is our associate producer. We get audio support from Kyle Seglan and Charlotte Landis. Our music is by Eddie Cooper. We get production support from Madeline Herringer, Katie Long, and Ari Schwartz. Matt DeGroot is our head of production. And we are thankful for our digital team, Ben Heathcote and Joe Matusky. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. You can subscribe to Strict Scrutiny on YouTube to catch full episodes. Find us at youtube.com/AtStrictScrutinyPodcast. If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe to Strict Scrutiny in your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode. And if you want to help other people find the show, please rate and review us. It really helps.

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