345. TRIP US: The Golden Age of Corruption

Is the United States entering a new age of corruption? Why are Democrats staying silent? What will be different about a second Trump term? This week, Anthony Scaramucci is joined by Alastair Campbell to answer all this and more in this episode of The Rest Is Politics US. Instagram: @RestPoliticsUS Twitter: @RestPoliticsUS Email: [email protected] Social Producer: Jess Kidson Assistant Producer: India Dunkley Producers: Fiona Douglas + Nicole Maslen Senior Producer: Dom Johnson Head of Digital: Sam Oakley Head of Content: Tom Whiter Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenpor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Rory Stewart?

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• 0:06Alastair Campbell?

  And I must thank NordVPN because on my Grand European Tour with Fiona, I was away from the Hawthorns for West Bromwich against Burnley, but I managed to watch it. There you go.

• 0:19Rory Stewart?

  I actually had a NordVPN thank you. I was in the new Starbucks here in Crete. And of course, the thing flashed up, saying this is an unsecured public network. And I was able to go to my VPN. It was a little reminder of something we often forget when we're in all those cafes and things, which is actually genuinely, people can do all kinds of weird cyber attacks and spying if you don't have a virtual private network when you're sitting in that Starbucks.

• 0:42Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I think, are you not really sort of proud of me that I managed to do this? Or should I say Fiona managed to do this?

• 0:49Rory Stewart?

  I'm incredibly proud of you. That's a tech transformation. So to get the best discount off your NordVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com/restorspolitics. That's nordvpn.com/restorspolitics. And the link is in the episode description.

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• 2:24Alastair Campbell?

  Hi there, Alastair Campbell here. Now, Catty Kay, who you will know as the co-presenter of The Rest is Politics US with Anthony Scaramucci, she is away this week due to some weird American celebration called Thanksgiving, and she being a Brit clearly has to take part in that. So I have stepped into the breach and just recorded an episode with The Mooch. We spoke about all sorts of things: possible Trump trade war with China, not to mention Canada and Mexico, growing concerns about the rule of law, potential golden age of corruption in the White House, and what is he doing with Elon Musk. Since the presidential election on November 5th, you may have noticed that Rest is Politics US episodes are no

• 3:09Alastair Campbell?

  longer on our feed. They've actually got their own separate feed now. Just search The Rest is Politics US wherever you get your podcasts to hear their twice-weekly episodes. But here, back this time, just this once, this week's show with me and The Mooch. Hope you enjoy.

• 3:30Anthony Scaramucci?

  Hello and welcome to a special edition of The Rest is Politics US. It's Thanksgiving week here in the United States, so happy Thanksgiving to everybody, even if you don't live in the US. We don't have Catty Kay with us this week. She's on vacation. In fact, she's on a remote beach somewhere, celebrating her family's Thanksgiving. But you have the proletariats in the house, okay? That would include myself and Alastair Campbell. Alistair, welcome to the Rest is Politics US edition. So good to see you, by the way, my friend. How are you?

• 4:00Alastair Campbell?

  I'm okay. I've got to tell you, though, Rich, honestly, Catty Kay, first of all, she's a Brit. What on earth is she doing celebrating Thanksgiving? Secondly, your podcast has been going how long now? The Rest is Politics US?

• 4:13Anthony Scaramucci?

  Six months, maybe?

• 4:14Alastair Campbell?

  Okay.

• 4:15Anthony Scaramucci?

  Six?

• 4:15Alastair Campbell?

  Six months. Rory Stewart and I have been going, I don't know, two, three years or something. We have not missed a single week.

• 4:23Anthony Scaramucci?

  Yeah.

• 4:24Alastair Campbell?

  So what is this vacation stuff that Catty Kay does? What's that all about?

• 4:27Anthony Scaramucci?

  I don't know. I think she's on to something. It's the true American spirit of leisure. You and me, man, we're in the... I'm rowing the boat, man. You know, I learned from my grandfather, row the boat without complaint. You know, I used to say to him, he'd say, "What's the sense of complaining? Nobody listens, Alistair. Row the boat, man." So I want to talk about three things with you in the first half, if you don't mind. I want to talk about tariffs.

• 4:51Alastair Campbell?

  Yep.

• 4:51Anthony Scaramucci?

  What does the Trump presidency mean to the rule of law? We've uncovered some corruption already in the transition team. And then let's talk about the future of democracy, not only here in the United States, but democracies under assault around the world. And what does that mean? But I want to, I want to go with tariffs because you were in the administration, the Blair administration, and you had to deal with tariffs on both sides, imposing them on goods coming into Britain, or at least negotiating that with the EU, and then dealing with whatever was happening with the US. And so what are your thoughts generally on tariffs? And what do you think of Trump's proclamation last night on Truth Social and X, where he's saying he's going to have anywhere from 30 to 200% tariffs?

• 5:34Anthony Scaramucci?

  And he's saying this is to prevent the arrival of drugs and illegal immigrants into the country.

• 5:40Alastair Campbell?

  I mean, that is, that is quite a link to make. Do you remember when we were together in, in New York, when you were calling the election wrong?

• 5:48Anthony Scaramucci?

  Was I the only one calling the election wrong?

• 5:50Alastair Campbell?

  Roy did as well, Roy did as well.

• 5:51Anthony Scaramucci?

  But not you. I love you, man. You are the best. I got it wrong. I do admit that, but.

• 5:57Alastair Campbell?

  Okay. I said to you, when Trump talks about tariffs, does he understand what he's talking about? Because he was saying at that time, that if he puts tariffs on, let's say, goods coming in from China, that that was going to be cost paid by the Chinese. A bit like with his wall and the Mexicans, you know, don't worry, America. And now that is obviously not true. And yet people have been voted for him, and he couldn't have been clearer that tariffs are going to be a big, big, big part of his economic strategy. So he's now announced he's going to do 25% tariffs on goods coming from Canada and Mexico on day one. Okay? And then a bit more on top for goods from China.

• 6:38Alastair Campbell?

  I mean, what I can't get my head around is he, in his first term, didn't he do a trade deal with these guys?

• 6:44Anthony Scaramucci?

  He did, he did, yeah, and we've abided by most of that trade deal. Everyone says, you know, on the right that Biden left all the tariffs in place. He did not. Biden surgically went through the list of tariffs and I'll just give you my 30 second view on tariffs, having studied it. I'm also good friends with Robert Lighthizer. He's got a great book on this called No Trade Is Free. It's a big history of US trade. What Biden did was he surgically went through the tariffs, his team, and where governments are financing private enterprise and they're helping them compete, they kept those tariffs in some cases, believe it or not, even increased them. But where it was helping the American consumer to get the services or the goods into the

• 7:29Anthony Scaramucci?

  United States, they actually did eliminate the tariffs. I'm assuming that Trump is going to reimpose those. But you're asking a really good question. He knows that the consumer pays the tariffs. He likes that lie because it sounds good to low information voters, but he does know that. And what he also likes doing, and you may or may not remember this, in 2020, he said to the Mexicans, I'm going to ram 25% tariffs. He needed something from them. The president of Mexico called him and said, hey, you know, what do you need? Well, this is what I need. He guess he wanted more military, Mexican military patrolling their border, you know, on the southern side of the US. And then literally two days later, so I'm revoking my proclamation of tariffs.

• 8:12Anthony Scaramucci?

  It's this sort of herking and jerking, and this is this overbite, this overexaggeration that represents Donald Trump.

• 8:20Alastair Campbell?

  So this stuff that he did yesterday, is this just negotiation? Was it?

• 8:23Anthony Scaramucci?

  So I think it is. So I think what he's doing is the same thing. I think, I think the world was very shocked for season one of The Apprentice White House edition. But I think the world is no longer shocked. Okay, I think the world is like, okay, he's a television star. He's going for ratings. He's going to say ridiculous things and he's going to cast ridiculous characters because he's into ratings. And so I think this is a salvo. I know this sounds a little crazy, but I also think he would love to weaken the stock market going into January 20th. The stock market is his ultimate barometer. You know, forget about polls, Alistair, forget about sentiment, cabinet discussion, feedback from friends.

• 9:08Anthony Scaramucci?

  The stock market for Trump is the ultimate barometer. So if he imposes those tariffs and it crashes the market during his term, no bueno for Donald Trump. Okay, he'll, he'll, he'll go in reverse on that stuff. But I, I just think this is now predictable. And I would say to people around the world, he's not going to do that. There's no way he can impose those tariffs without hurting the US economy. He'll, he'll find his way out of it sometime in the first or second week of the presidency, saying they've, they've done this or that. And he'll declare victory without imposing those tariffs. Now, that doesn't mean he's not going to put other tariffs in because he thinks that the Chinese have been unfair to the US. And frankly, you know this, in some cases, they frankly have been. And I think that's now a bipartisan idea. What, what do you think?

• 9:53Alastair Campbell?

  What I want to know is, we sit here like in Europe and we're thinking, right, well, he's talked about 60% on China, 200% if they go after Taiwan and sort of, you know, 10, 20% for kind of the, the bit of the world that we're in. And then there's a discussion in Britain about whether because of Brexit, we sort of can somehow carve ourselves out of that. But the fact that he's gone for Canada, first of all, what is that about? Is that basically saying, I don't like Justin Trudeau?

• 10:21Anthony Scaramucci?

  Well, it's a combination of those things. He probably doesn't like Justin Trudeau and he probably thinks rightly or wrongly that some migrant transfer is starting to come through the north. Uh, I don't have the exact numbers on that, Alistair. It's miniscule compared to what's going on at the Mexican border. But there is people trafficking and there's also potential drug smuggling going on. But you know, the, the great irony of all this stuff is you know, and I know, some of it's actual people walking, border crossings, cars.

• 10:55Anthony Scaramucci?

  But there's a lot of plane activity, you know, planes land all over this country un FAA approved, uh, drugs are taken out of the planes and then they, they take off or, you know, planes are dropping drugs in the Gulf of Mexico and there are boats out there picking them up. You know, I mean, unfortunately, this sort of nefarious activity is happening. I don't know if tariffs, which is a very blunt instrument, is going to stop that. It sounds good. It's a simplistic idea, but it doesn't, it doesn't get to the real issue.

• 11:26Alastair Campbell?

  Right. Imagine you're back with him in the, in the White House that you got granted a 12th day and it's today, right? How do you make this?

• 11:34Anthony Scaramucci?

  I can already feel my eye twitching. Hold on, let me hold down my, my eye from twitching. Okay, go ahead. Okay, keep talking.

• 11:41Alastair Campbell?

  Okay. How does he, Ryan, you're going out to do a briefing based upon what he's just put out on his social media. Okay. How do you make this link between tariffs and the thing about drugs?

• 11:52Anthony Scaramucci?

  You say that, uh, we want to punish these governments because they are lax in terms of their controls on their side of the border. They're lax in terms of the drugs that are in their countries.

• 12:04Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, but drugs are illegal. You're not going to put tariffs on drugs. They're illegal.

• 12:07Anthony Scaramucci?

  No, no, no, no, no. I'm saying, um, I'm, I'm punishing these countries by, I'm punishing their economies and I'm punishing their corporations to get their governments to act and be more stringent on the enforcement of drugs. I understand that the tariffs are not on the drugs. Obviously they're illegal and they get smuggled into the country, but I'm trying to incentivize through negative incentives.

• 12:32Alastair Campbell?

  Okay.

• 12:32Anthony Scaramucci?

  The governments around the world to stop the trafficking of drugs into the United States.

• 12:39Alastair Campbell?

  I think if I was in the White House press room, listening to you say that, Mooch, I'm not buying it.

• 12:44Anthony Scaramucci?

  Well, okay. Well, that's why he's got a 27 year old in that position now, right? This poor woman is going to be, you know, her tongue is going to come out of her mouth like a bow tie. It's going to be so twisted as it comes out of her mouth, right? But that's, that's what happens, you know, but, you know, we don't, I don't have a lot of time with you and your time is precious. We've done the tariffs. I don't think they're getting imposed. We'll see what happens. Let's switch to the rule of law. I, I think we're entering a golden age in America. Let me tell you what that golden age is. It's the golden age of corruption. I think we, I think we're going to have such wide-scale equivocating corruption.

• 13:24Anthony Scaramucci?

  So you can join the cabinet, you can join as an undersecretary, but wire to my personal banking account $100,000. Okay, well, why not? Everyone else is doing it. God only knows what is going on with family members. God only knows what's going on with underlings. He's opened the space for that. The other thing he did, which is he got off all these cases. These were real and legitimate cases, but Trump knew if he won the election, the Department of Justice since 1973 has had an honor agreement. This is not in our Constitution or anything like that. It's an honor agreement that they will not prosecute sitting American

• 14:05Anthony Scaramucci?

  presidents. So Jack Smith went to the judge yesterday and said, yeah, this election interference case where we have tremendous damning evidence, we're dropping the case. Oh, the worst case of all, Alistair, is he left the documents in the bathroom and he had Chinese spies and Russian spies joining Mar-a-Lago. And, you know, the agency's upset, MI6 is upset, and we've got an unbelievable amount of evidence in the complaint. That's also been dropped. And I am asking you the following question. Doesn't that create licensing? And doesn't that create space for all these people? Trump gets away with everything. We'll get away with it, too. The fish stinks from the head down. He's got this man Boris Epstein caught

• 14:48Anthony Scaramucci?

  by his own team, caught by his own team, wanting to take a bribe, okay, to get people into the government. And by the way, in 2016, Paul Manafort was caught getting a loan from a banking official in Chicago, and the banking official wanted to be Secretary of the Army, and Paul was pushing him very hard. And I interviewed the guy and I sent a text to Jim Mattis. I said, this guy's a bozo. He shouldn't be anywhere near the secretary. I don't know why we're even interviewing him. I did it as a favor to Paul and Paul kept pushing, kept pushing. I sent out a few more emails. I said, certainly we can find somebody more qualified than this. We, we landed on Mark Esper. I don't know how well you know Mark. He's a very accomplished guy. And then he went on to become the Secretary of Defense.

• 15:33Anthony Scaramucci?

  He's a real gentleman and American patriot. But I was a witness, Southern District of New York, because they uncovered all those emails. The Department of Justice called me and said, hey, we've seen these emails between you and Secretary Mattis. Could you, could you come in and testify? And, and voluntarily, by the way, otherwise they would have subpoenaed me and I did. And this guy went to jail for two years for bribing Paul Manafort. Okay. So, so now we're back there again. What happens to these people? Does Trump just pardon them? Does Trump punish them? You know, you tell me. I think we're heading into the golden age of corruption, worse than the Teapot Dome scandals in the 1890s.

• 16:13Alastair Campbell?

  Well, listen, if I'm right, your entire political democratic system is founded on the notion that no single person, including the president, should ever be above the law. Right? Donald Trump has now been, thanks to the system, thanks to the system's failures to nail him during the four years when he was out of power, thanks to the, the democratic system of the people re-electing him as president. And now thanks to Special Counsel Jack Smith doing as you've just said, getting rid of these charges against him. He is above the law. Now, if, as you say, it rots from the top. If he is above the law, the, the lack of respect that people then have for the institutions of law, I think spreads. And this stuff about the, the money, I mean, I, can you imagine

• 16:58Alastair Campbell?

  what the discussions that are going on between his sort of side, current sidekick, Elon Musk? Elon Musk, the richest guy in the world, right? How many government departments that Musk has now sort of got his, his hands into? How many of those departments actually have a role in making him even richer? And how can that ever be justified in a system of of government? And throw into that, Anthony, the fact that he's not doing the FBI checks on the people that he's bringing in, he's put them out of the equation. He's not signed the official transition things. He's not taking the public money that he could get for the transition process because, as you say, he's using the private money.

• 17:39Alastair Campbell?

  That's a kind of undermining of the, it seems to me, of several foundations of your system of government.

• 17:44Anthony Scaramucci?

  So there's a wrinkle in our system of government. There was a presumption that an honorable person would rise to the presidency. And so there was a benefit of the doubt for that honorable person. They would give them pardon powers, but of course, the honorable person would be judicious with those pardon powers. There was a presumption that, okay, there could be snafus, but this is an honorable person, so we're not going to prosecute them for minor things that have happened, okay, while they're president. They weren't expecting insurrections, and they weren't expecting the president to foment one, and they weren't expecting the president to take documents and put them in his bathroom. They just weren't, that wasn't stuff that they were expecting, you know?

• 18:25Anthony Scaramucci?

  And so we're there now, and there's a great movie that one of my friends, Gabe Sherman, wrote the screenplay on. It's called The Apprentice. If you haven't had a chance to watch it, I heartily recommend it because it's based on a lot of factual information about Trump's rise and the coaching he got from Roy Cohn. And of course, for listeners outside the United States, Roy Cohn was a very famous, hard-ass, hard-edged New York lawyer. He worked for Joe McCarthy in the 1950s during the big Red Scare, where everyone was being accused of being a communist. And he hurt a lot of people. He was a very insidious sort of a guy. He liked inflicting pain on people. And he said something to Donald Trump. He said three things to Donald Trump.

• 19:06Anthony Scaramucci?

  He said, never back down, never admit defeat under any circumstances, and never, ever apologize for anything. Those were the three things that Roy Cohn rammed into Donald Trump's head. That manifestation has led to the cretin status that Trump has, but it's also led to his rise. These tactics have been Very successful for him, Alistair.

• 19:30Alastair Campbell?

  He backed down on Matt Gaetz?

• 19:32Anthony Scaramucci?

  Uh, well, you know, but Matt Gaetz is an object in his field of vision. Okay. He ran Matt Gaetz over with the, you know, that tank, that that car that they let him drive in, whatever they call it, you know, the the monster or whatever it is. He just ran him right over with it. He didn't care. And then, and five minutes later, he went to Pam Bondi. So when you say he backed down on Matt Gaetz. Hey, Matt, I'm putting you up for this. If you can't make it, I actually could care less about you.

• 19:56Alastair Campbell?

  Right.

• 19:57Anthony Scaramucci?

  I've got another person in the wings, but but there is a wrinkle there. Okay, that Trump is now picked up. So the Trump antenna, because he's got very good political instincts, just went up and the antenna is blinking on the top of his head. He says, wait a minute. The Republicans are growing backbones in the Senate because I know the inside story. I talked to several Republican senators and full disclosure. You know, I'm I'm still a Republican. I I've donated to many of these people. You'll see me on the.

• 20:24Alastair Campbell?

  Hey, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. On the night in New York, you said you were going to become an independent.

• 20:30Anthony Scaramucci?

  Well, I did, and there's a good chance that I will. But if these Republicans back up what they're doing right now, I probably will stay Republican because because these guys went to Gates and Vance behind closed doors. And they used some expletives, but they said, NFW, you're not getting confirmed. So you can have a show circus and a show trial here. It'll embarrass you. It'll embarrass the president. We're going to read the ethics report into the congressional record about your nefarious sexual activity with underage women. And we're going to blow you out of the water. So if you want to do that, there's going to be no recess appointment for you, none of that other stuff.

• 21:11Alastair Campbell?

  Are there going to be any more of these appointments that get the treatment?

• 21:14Anthony Scaramucci?

  The Matt Gaetz treatment?

• 21:16Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 21:16Anthony Scaramucci?

  I don't know. It's a good question. I I, you know, McCarthy. Is telling people that he thinks Hegseth will get through and Tulsi Gabbard will get through, but there are there are senators saying that they won't get through. Okay.

• 21:29Alastair Campbell?

  But Tulsi Gabbard, is she?

• 21:31Anthony Scaramucci?

  You know, can I interrupt you for one second? Our producer is saying, you said you were now an independent. I said, I was thinking about. These are these are our producers riling me up. Okay, I'm still a Republican. It's very hard to break ranks. What is your football team again? Right? It's the one up north.

• 21:46Alastair Campbell?

  It's called Burnley.

• 21:47Anthony Scaramucci?

  Okay, Burnley. Okay, so you're just gonna drop Burnley. I mean, they suck, apparently. I don't know. But if they did suck.

• 21:53Alastair Campbell?

  No, they don't. No, they don't.

• 21:54Anthony Scaramucci?

  But if they did suck, you would you would just drop them like right away?

• 21:57Alastair Campbell?

  No, but but it would the question wouldn't even arise. So therefore, I would never be on a live stream in New York saying that I was going to drop them. It just wouldn't happen.

• 22:05Anthony Scaramucci?

  Well, I mean, all right, we got a bad manager now in Donald Trump. I got a little emotional. I mean, what the hell? I mean, I mean, you know, you can't, you know, it was an emotional night for me. I got a lot.

• 22:14Alastair Campbell?

  I've delivered the trouble is.

• 22:16Anthony Scaramucci?

  And I'm on the deportation list. It was a tiny bit of emotional.

• 22:20Alastair Campbell?

  The trouble is, the trouble is, I'm feeling this step by step return. And then when the 27 year old gets sacked after three weeks, he's gonna pick up the phone, he's gonna say, hey, mooch.

• 22:32Anthony Scaramucci?

  No, no, no, no, I'm a major loser now. He just tweeted about me, called me a major loser. How much does this guy love me? Like, loves on a scale of one to 10, it's probably like a 15, right? But but but go to the rule of law for a second. Okay, go to the rule of law.

• 22:46Alastair Campbell?

  It's a problem.

• 22:47Anthony Scaramucci?

  If you were sitting here in the opposition, and now all the rules are being broken, everything's being stretched. What do you do? Do you play dirty like they do? Do you get on a high horse of righteousness? What's the political strategy, Alice?

• 23:03Alastair Campbell?

  God, it's so hard. Because of course, I think that what was at the heart of the Democrat strategy is they in the election, is they genuinely felt that in their tale of two futures that they were telling. A big part of it was, we're good people, not bad people. We tell the truth, we don't tell lies. We believe in the rule of law, we believe in international institutions, et cetera. He says the opposite and he wins. So that makes it a difficult judgment for them. I'm surprised at how little this stuff is being called out by the big guns inside the Democrat Party. I don't get a sense of them really firing on any cylinders at all about that. Is that because I'm in Britain or is it because they're not doing it?

• 23:43Anthony Scaramucci?

  It's a really good question. I think they're in disarray. I think that, you know, it's been said, but it bears worth repeating that, you know, Biden really screwed them. Because Biden said, I'm old, I'm gonna serve one term, I'm gonna help you guys find my successor, love the power, I'm gonna stay in power. And they didn't flex on him in any way. And so he's got them in disarray. I can't see the successor. I don't think Harris is going to be successful if she runs again. You know, you know, it's interesting because I thought she was gonna win. But when I did that interview with you and Rory, and it was back in April of this year, I did say that he would be more fearful of Gavin

• 24:24Anthony Scaramucci?

  Newsom. Turned out that, you know, she couldn't win, but it is also unfair to her. They only gave her 107 days, right? So, so she's been weakened. Newsom, I think, is gonna jump the shark. He's gonna turn 60 and not, you know, Democrats do better with younger people, Al. So, you know, Richie Torres, somebody that you and I interviewed, I don't think he's prime time for 28, but could he be a 32 or 36 aspirant? It's possible, you know, you know, we don't, we don't know at this point. But, but, you know, AOC wants it. She's too hard left for me, frankly, but she's got the charisma and the work ethic, you know. But I, I, I don't see the person that's galvanizing the party. I don't see the Obama

• 25:08Anthony Scaramucci?

  that comes in and says, okay, I'm gonna represent the opposition, I'm gonna represent the shadow government, as you guys would call it, and here's what we stand for, and here's how we're gonna rebut what's going on in Trump world. I don't see it.

• 25:22Alastair Campbell?

  No. Is it harder because they're still in power or they're still in office? So Joe Biden is still there, Kamala Harris is still there, he's the president, she's the vice president. So anybody else who comes and starts maneuvering, that's what it looks like.

• 25:35Anthony Scaramucci?

  Yeah, yeah, you can't do it.

• 25:36Alastair Campbell?

  So do they have to wait? I presume they have to wait till Trump? Gets in. But I think I really think there's a lot of damage being done now by him to the country before he's even got there. And I'll tell you the other thing he's doing, which reminds me of the Brexit debate here. So the Brexit debate here, fifty-two percent to forty-eight percent. So it was close. But the way that the winners reacted to it was as if they'd got a hundred percent. We can do what we want. Trump's doing that, helped by this totally false narrative that he's pushed, that this was some kind of landslide. And he's redefining landslide in so many different ways. I mean, I was looking at some of the figures. So if you want to talk about a landslide, you go back to Lyndon Johnson, sixty-four, he wins

• 26:21Alastair Campbell?

  by twenty-two point six percent.

• 26:23Anthony Scaramucci?

  Yeah.

• 26:24Alastair Campbell?

  Nixon, twenty-three point two. Reagan in nineteen eighty-four by eighteen point two. And since then, there's never, ever been a double-digit win.

• 26:32Anthony Scaramucci?

  Yeah.

• 26:33Alastair Campbell?

  And he, Trump is down, and I think he's the third smallest

• 26:37Anthony Scaramucci?

  Yes.

• 26:37Alastair Campbell?

  popular vote win. But they're talking and behaving like I am all-powerful. Now, that is a narrative that has to be pushed back. Because otherwise, that's what makes him do some of the stuff he does. And I'm just shocked at the absence of the Democrats from the debate.

• 26:53Anthony Scaramucci?

  Oh, yeah, for now. But I mean, what could happen, though, is the Republicans in the Senate that hate Trump grow a little bit of a spine, and they say, okay, you're entitled to pick people, but you're not entitled to pick abnormal people. So we're going to take a break. But when we come back, I want to talk to you about Europe, because you're the expert there. And I want to make some predictions about the Ukraine and the Middle East with you. And then I want to talk about season two of The Apprentice, White House edition. How is it going to differ from season one? You know, I mean, how are the cast going to shape up in the screenplay? All right. We'll be right back. We'll be right back.

• 27:29Alastair Campbell?

  That's good. See you soon.

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• 29:22Anthony Scaramucci?

  All right, welcome back to The Rest is Politics U.S. I'm Anthony Scaramucci. And I'm not Catty K. I'm Alastair Campbell. You're definitely not Catty K in so many ways, Alistair, but we won't get into that in this podcast, okay? But let's go over what we're going to talk about right now. We're going to talk about the Ukraine, the Middle East, Europe, but also how is this season of the Trump show going to differ from the last season of the Trump show? But I want to start with Ukraine and your opinion of how Donald Trump is going to handle Ukraine from a perspective in Europe.

• 29:58Alastair Campbell?

  I should point out to listeners that the reason that the mutual saying Ukraine is because the Brits on this podcast have pointed out to him that those who say the Ukraine, well, it's okay if you're French because l'Ukraine, that's what they say, right? The Ukraine, because like they say, les Etats-Unis or la Grande Bretagne. But the Ukraine is used as a bit of an insult to Ukraine. It's like saying it's like, you know, it's like the Alps. It's a sort of region rather than a sovereign state.

• 30:27Anthony Scaramucci?

  You Brits are really too much. I can't use the word fascist when describing Donald Trump. Too glib.

• 30:33Alastair Campbell?

  Oh, you can.

• 30:33Anthony Scaramucci?

  I can't use, I can't use the preposition the. All right. I'm really trying to reform it. I feel like you are like Dr. Dolittle and I'm unfortunately in Covent Garden right now. Don't understand English, but go ahead, keep going.

• 30:46Alastair Campbell?

  So I think that the cartoon picture of the emergence of Trump during the campaign is he says he's going to sort out Ukraine in 24 hours. That means he's basically going to roll over to Vladimir Putin and give it away. And Zelensky will just have to suck it up because truth is without the American money going in, there's no way that they can carry on this war in the same way they've been fighting it. The Europeans aren't going to step up. So that was the kind of cartoon caricatured view. And I said on the, we call it the original Rest is Politics or the British Rest is Politics. No, because we're, we're global. But anyway, I said the thing with Rory, that I was speaking to somebody who was at the G20, who said that Trump had been much more nuanced in a phone call that he'd

• 31:31Alastair Campbell?

  had, that he'd been saying that, and he said that he said that he thought that the situation in Ukraine had the capacity to become as complicated as the Middle East. Now, that If that's right, is he already thinking that the 24 hour thing, that's just one of those figures of speech that nobody took seriously, don't need to worry about that? The kind of, the mood music with Putin has been interesting in that the Russians are, you know, they didn't kind of celebrate Trump's second coming in the way that they celebrated the first coming. Now, deep down, I've got no doubt at all that they're very, very happy that he won rather than Kamala Harris. But I wonder if there's going to be something a little bit more unexpected in the way they deal with Ukraine. That could be my wishful thinking, but that's what I think.

• 32:11Anthony Scaramucci?

  So I want to, I want to fortify that. He, he met with the, the incoming or the current, the new president of NATO down in Mar-a-Lago. Sources are reporting back through the military that Trump is being way more nuanced. Inside the campaign, my friends are telling me Trump does not like I'm Putin's lackey. He hates that narrative. It drives him crazy. I think he's been very fawning over Putin over the last nine years that he's been in politics, but he's now 78. He won the popular vote in the largest economy with the biggest military and he may not want to be Putin's lackey here.

• 32:52Anthony Scaramucci?

  You may know this and it's pretty well reported that the night of the election, they were showing naked pictures of the incoming first, yeah, the incoming first lady on state television of Russia. So that's telling you that they're trying to say to him, hey, we've got some dirty goods on you, some compromis, so be careful with us. And I don't think that went over well in Trump land, the naked pictures of Melania on state, state TV. So I guess would it surprise you with Marco Rubio and Walsh, Mike Walsh in positions of more typical Republicans in terms of the way they lean on foreign policy?

• 33:35Anthony Scaramucci?

  If the world is surprised about Trump's position on the Ukraine.

• 33:39Alastair Campbell?

  Where would you put Rubio in the kind of traditional Republican Party political spectrum? Where would he be?

• 33:48Anthony Scaramucci?

  He's energetic Jeb Bush. And so remember Jeb Bush is his mentor. Jeb Bush helped him rise when he was governor of Florida. He was close to the Bush family. It got strained in 2016 when they were both running for president together. I think Jeb didn't like that. He thought Marco needed to take a backseat to him. But he's tight with Susie Wiles. Remember, she's a longtime political operative in Florida. She helped DeSantis get elected. She's the one that influenced and convinced Donald Trump to endorse DeSantis. That was a very close 2018 race. And so you're in a situation where these guys think like neocons. And what is a neocon? America's got might.

• 34:31Anthony Scaramucci?

  America needs to flex on people to get them in line. Now, obviously, that wasn't successful in Afghanistan. Turned out that it wasn't successful in Iraq. But this is different. This is the European theater. And I see Putin as a rationalist. So I don't see Putin as a madman. I see Putin as a rationalist. He wants to stay in power. He knows if he projects power outside of his country, it creates a lot of nationalism, and which as a result of which it creates popularity for him inside the country. He controls the media. You know, when people go to war, Alistair, you know, George Orwell, one of your most famous writers. People go to war. We're always at war. It creates nationalism.

• 35:13Anthony Scaramucci?

  We both remember George Herbert Walker Bush out of the Gulf War with a 93% approval rating. Obviously, he went on to lose the election. Winston Churchill losing to Clement Attlee after the war's over. But Putin knows he's got to keep a war going. He's 72. He wants to stay in power till he dies. Sees himself as a successor to Joe Stalin. But I don't see him as a madman. I don't see him deploying a nuke somewhere. I mean, if he does that, that would be a big shock. I know he's threatening to do that. What do you think?

• 35:44Alastair Campbell?

  I think on the, as far as this relates to Ukraine, that I don't think Trump will want this to be his first big foreign policy outcome. Because I think it's very, very hard to see how he will project that as a success for him. Ending the war's not enough because there are going to be consequences to that that don't necessarily get played out in front of what you call your, you know, low-information voters, but which are going to have big strategic consequences in Europe. And the sense that I was getting from this guy who'd spoken to Trump, the G20 leader, was that he was more on to that than maybe we thought, and that he's worried about the idea that his

• 36:26Alastair Campbell?

  Ukraine becomes like Biden's Afghanistan. You know, it sounds great, you ended it, but then there's absolute chaos and mess. The other thing I wanted to pick you up on, something you said earlier, which I thought was really interesting. You said he hates the image of being Putin's lackey. If you were Zelensky, would you use that, or would you get others to use that? Or how would you, if that sort of really plays into him, how would you exploit that? Because it's kind of on that level that he operates, isn't it?

• 36:50Anthony Scaramucci?

  I feel like Trump is in a different place today. Is it just me? He was nervous, Alistair. If it was November of 2016 and we were at Trump Tower, he was projecting confidence, but he was nervous because I can remember it, okay? He was listening to people. He was concerned about the presidency. He was trying to follow the rules. When he got there and they were attacking him, again, taking it from his point of view, okay? When they were attacking him, he was like, okay, I have to fight back. The special prosecutor, this, that and the other thing. Now, weirdly, Joe Biden has made Donald Trump stronger with

• 37:31Anthony Scaramucci?

  Trumpism and stronger with MAGA. How did he do that? He's had a four-year break in the action to ruminate and stew about what he did wrong in Trump I. And so now he's coming back into Trump II with a vengeance. But one of the things that he wants to do is he wants to stump Alastair Campbell, Anthony Scaramucci, and other pundits. He wants us to think he's going one way, and then through misdirection, he goes in a completely opposite direction, just to shock people. There was a great scene in H.R. McMaster's book, which I'm still Laughing about, I read HR's book and he said, so Tillerson and I were meeting with Trump. There was a problem in Venezuela and we both looked at him, okay, sir, we briefed you.

• 38:14Anthony Scaramucci?

  Yes, I understand what to do. Yes, you're going to meet the press in two minutes. Yes. Okay, the one thing we do not want you to do, please don't say to the press that we have any military options on the table. We don't want to inflame the other leaders in South America. Trump gets to the microphone and says, I just want everybody to know we've got military options on the table. And this is this reflexive contrarianism. That's a description from HR McMaster that describes Trump. So whatever the general consensus is, he may just do the opposite for the sake of doing the opposite. That's literally how he thinks. You know, he's not sitting there like Tony Blair or Bill Clinton and say, okay, I have a grand strategy.

• 38:58Anthony Scaramucci?

  I'm going to bomb these areas of Kosovo. I'm not going to put any ground forces in. Hopefully it'll stop the ethnic cleansing, right? And here's my strategy. There's no thought behind it. It's a reflex. The other thing is if you're coming in with a thought and a strategy and he doesn't own it, he's not going to use it. You, you, you have to go to him and say, here are the options. Here are 10 things that we should do. Here are the top three things and then he picks it. I know it sounds childish, but I'm just telling you that how this shit works, you know?

• 39:30Alastair Campbell?

  And the pictures, you have to have the pictures of him with his.

• 39:32Anthony Scaramucci?

  Oh, you gotta have pictures, you gotta picture him. You can't have pictures of him from the side because he looks really fat from the side. He don't like pictures of himself from the side, but he likes pictures of himself from the front with the suit tie and the, you know, the jacket hiding the belly. You know why you laugh at that, Alistair? Because you know what I'm saying is true. I mean.

• 39:49Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, no, but what I'm going to ask you is what will he be like when he's sort of looking at social media and he's seeing all these hilarious memes of him and Elon Musk either being in love or being married or being sumo wrestlers, eating cakes all day.

• 40:04Anthony Scaramucci?

  Yeah, no, he hates it. Hates it. Hates it.

• 40:07Alastair Campbell?

  So people online should keep doing that stuff.

• 40:10Anthony Scaramucci?

  Yeah, you know, on more than one occasion and repetitively, he has said, yeah, people say that I like negative publicity, that negative publicity is just as good. All publicity is good. That's a bunch of blah, blah, blah. Okay, I only like positive publicity. Okay, but what Trump does like is being on the top fold of a broadsheet paper. Okay, and I think I told you that story. He was so excited to see himself on the top fold of a broadsheet paper. He said, this running for president is just fantastic. I'm always on the top fold.

• 40:42Alastair Campbell?

  That's funny. The only newspaper who got with me, Mooch, is yesterday's New York Times. And there he is, top of the front page there with his cabinet, and then he's over here again with his tariffs.

• 40:52Anthony Scaramucci?

  Yeah, he loves that.

• 40:53Alastair Campbell?

  That's a perfect front page.

• 40:54Anthony Scaramucci?

  And by the way, that's his favorite paper. He hate reads that paper because they hate him, but that's the New York, that's his hometown's paper. So he's been intoxicated with that paper. But I just want to say, because I know we're going to close out here in a second, but I just want to say that there's going to be a couple of things that I want to predict and get your reaction to that are going to be different about season two. Okay, so the first one is the one we just talked about, which is the Ukraine foreign policy. It's going to be different than what MAGA thinks because he put neocons in. And so remember, personnel is policy. Put neocons into state and national security, you're going to get neocon theory and neocon projection of policy. But the second thing is that the

• 41:39Anthony Scaramucci?

  Doge thing is going to go absolutely nowhere. And I want to get your reaction to that because it's not even a department of the government and it hasn't even been formed. And he weirdly sent Ramaswami and Musk to Siberia. And I think he did it intentionally. I think he said, okay, you two guys, you've helped me. Ha ha, I like you guys, but you're not really going to be part of this government. I'm sending you to Siberia. You're somebody that would remember Simpson Bowles. There was a bipartisan study to cut the fat of the government. They presented it to Paul Ryan and Barack Obama. They both looked at it and said, oh, that's great. Where's the paper shredder? And they put it right into the paper shredder, right?

• 42:22Anthony Scaramucci?

  And so, and by the way, my buddy Mulvaney, who was one of Trump's chief of staff, he's a good friend of mine, I'll quote him, he says, Elon's got a better chance of getting a colony on Mars than he does of getting anything implemented from Doge. Okay, so I don't think that's going to work out. Again, these are just predictions of mine. Like to get your reaction.

• 42:43Alastair Campbell?

  On that one, I hope it's right, because I have the sense of Musk becoming a dangerous, unhinged character with a lot of untrammelled power. And dangerous unhinged characters with untrammelled power have a habit of doing a lot more damage than other sorts of characters who might have power. So I hope he gets his wings clipped, and I hope he ends up in quite a lot of political difficulties as a result of having taken the course he's taken. I was talking to somebody yesterday who's known Musk over a period of time, who said he has become a completely different person, a completely different person. Now, is that power corrupting? Is it wealth corrupting? Is it the drugs? Is it the thing with his

• 43:24Alastair Campbell?

  child who's trans? What is it? I don't know if you follow this, but the sense of him being utterly obsessed with the UK at the moment is really just weird. So I hope he ends up in flames, to be absolutely frank.

• 43:38Anthony Scaramucci?

  He's saying things about the UK, and, you know, just let me know, are they true or not true? That's the information. So he's saying that thought police are arriving on people's doorsteps if they put out improper tweets? Is that nonsense?

• 43:52Alastair Campbell?

  Of course it's nonsense. What they're doing is if somebody incites racial hatred, and that's a criminal offence, then they might look at it. But there's this guy called Tommy Robinson, whose real name is Stephen Yaxley Lennon, and he calls himself Tommy Robinson, because that's a great British patriot name. And he's in jail at the moment for defying court orders about defaming somebody in a film, okay? And Musk keeps retweeting this guy, and saying people should look at this film, because it shows that Britain's become a police state. And you're thinking, you, Mr. Musk, you're the richest guy in the world, you've got a lot of business interests, you've got sort of, you know, more access to space than pretty much any other person on earth, and you've suddenly become the friend in chief.

• 44:35Alastair Campbell?

  To the president, the new president of the United States, what the fuck do you think you're doing, playing around with this sort of silly Twitter politics? And that says to me that he's a guy imploding or exploding. I'm glad what you said about Doge, because he is projecting that on his own social media channels. He's projecting like that, almost like a joint presidency. And I imagine that Trump hates the idea of Musk as a joint president as much as he hates the idea of being Putin's lackey.

• 45:02Anthony Scaramucci?

  Yeah, no, listen, I mean, you know how to do this better than anybody. Drop a few President Elon Musk bombs on the top half of a broadsheet paper. Is Elon President Musk? Is Elon co-president? And, you know, Trump's head will explode. He don't, he, he doesn't like it.

• 45:19Alastair Campbell?

  How do you get rid of him? How do you get him out of his head?

• 45:21Anthony Scaramucci?

  Well, he's already done it. He's already done it. See, that, that's the irony. People don't realize that he's already sidelined him. Okay.

• 45:28Alastair Campbell?

  But he's still hanging around. He's still hanging around.

• 45:30Anthony Scaramucci?

  He's still hanging around, but you know, you know, Trump's telling people privately that he's annoyed by it. He's telling people privately, look, the guy spent hundreds of millions of dollars on the campaign. If he wants to hang out and have an iced tea at Mar-a-Lago, let him. But, you know, remember what Ben Franklin said about house guests, right? They're, they should be treated like fish.

• 45:47Alastair Campbell?

  Fish.

• 45:48Anthony Scaramucci?

  Fresh fish, right? Three days, get the hell out of my house.

• 45:51Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 45:52Anthony Scaramucci?

  Okay, so he's been there now for 15 days. But listen, you know, listen, I applaud Elon Musk's accomplishments as an entrepreneur. I, I mean, it's hard to take that away from him. He's built two incredibly successful companies. Other companies that he's touched have gone very well, but we're not good at everything else. Okay, I, I may have a legal degree, but you certainly don't want me operating on somebody's brain. Musk knows how to land a rocket back from space impeccably, but he may not be the right guy for politics. And so what, what sometimes happens to people, and I've seen this on Wall Street, I am rich, therefore I'm definitionally a polymath, and I'm definitionally know something about everything. And oh, by the way, I know more about that than you do, even if you're an expert in that

• 46:37Anthony Scaramucci?

  field. You see what I mean? And there, there's an arrogance that comes with affluence that we have to be careful of.

• 46:44Alastair Campbell?

  My final point before we go, and it's been lovely talking to you as ever, Mooch, is there's a guy we talked, Roy and I talked about on our podcast this week, a guy called Frans Timmerman, who's former European official, is now the leader of the opposition in the Netherlands. He did the Winston Churchill lecture in Zurich last week. And he said this of the Trump. Government, he said the reelection of Trump marks a watershed moment in the transatlantic relationship. One gets the impression of a government of billionaires, by billionaires, for billionaires. Now, is that fair or not?

• 47:15Anthony Scaramucci?

  It might be. We'll have to see.

• 47:17Alastair Campbell?

  That's your golden era of corruption.

• 47:20Anthony Scaramucci?

  Yeah, it might be that. We have to see, you know, again, though, but Trump's such a mixed bag. He put Bessent in place. Uh, he's a gentleman. He's a very smart guy.

• 47:31Alastair Campbell?

  He's a billionaire.

• 47:32Anthony Scaramucci?

  He is a billionaire, but he's a traditionalist. So you can be a billionaire and a decent person. Ask Mike Bloomberg, right? If Mike Bloomberg was running the country, you'd be very happy because you wouldn't like every position he's taking, but you'd be like, okay, this guy's fair minded. He's a patriot. He's trying to do the right job for his fellow citizens. You know, Bessent is like that. Whatever you think of Marco Rubio, you may not like every one of his positions. You're, you're a Labor Party member, but, but he's, he's got good intentions, Marco Rubio. I, I know Marco 15 years. Again, don't agree with everything he says, but I, I do like him. Um, so there's a mixed bag going on, you know? And, uh, the good news is my rebuttal to the, the gentleman in Zurich that you're referring

• 48:13Anthony Scaramucci?

  to would be, you know, there are still good people around the hoop and there's 5,000 people that this man has to staff into the executive branch. There's not enough extremists to go around to fill all those jobs. You know, there just isn't, in my opinion, based on my observation.

• 48:32Alastair Campbell?

  Last time around, he left loads of those positions empty to give more power to the ones who were there.

• 48:36Anthony Scaramucci?

  Yeah, he did that because, uh, there was a lot of confirmation problems too with the people that he wanted to put in, you know? And, uh, and, you know, you know, remember, you know, I think I told you this, one of the reasons why at the end of his presidency, there were very few confirmed cabinet members, because only a confirmed cabinet member could knock him out of the box, you know, using the 25th amendment. You see what I'm saying? And so he, he left them in these acting positions. Because, you know, Tillerson and those guys in the first couple of months of the presidency said the guy's nuts. We got to think about that. They were dropping to the media, we're thinking about invoking the 25th Amendment.

• 49:14Alastair Campbell?

  Hmm.

• 49:15Anthony Scaramucci?

  So we'll see. We're either going to get a crazy situation, or we're going to get a 78-year-old golfer who's got Susie Wiles and Marco Rubio running a lot of things. We'll see. It's going to be one or the other. But it's a pleasure as always. Happy Thanksgiving to you, even though you don't celebrate it. Catty Kay, if you listen, happy Thanksgiving to you.

• 49:35Alastair Campbell?

  I imagine her holiday is going to be so rich that she won't have time to listen to her week off podcast. I'm shocked. I mean, I always thought Catty was a hard worker, real grafter, put it in for the team. Anyway, there we are.

• 49:48Anthony Scaramucci?

  Oh, my God. Listen to you.

• 49:49Alastair Campbell?

  Always happy to step in and help, Midge.

• 49:51Anthony Scaramucci?

  So before we go, I just want to let people know we have a bonus episode for our founding members coming out on Saturday. Catty recorded this, of course, before she went on vacation. You can hear that by signing up at therestispilotsus.com, okay? And that would really be helpful to me. Sign up and subscribe, please. And don't worry, Catty Kay will be back with us next Friday. Alastair unfortunately will not be back next Friday, but hopefully we'll get you back soon. Okay, lots of love to you and your family, and a great holiday to everybody around the world.

• 50:23Alastair Campbell?

  Take care.

• 50:24Anthony Scaramucci?

  Bye-bye.

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