Twitter rebrands as X, and Samsung's Galaxy Flip 5 and Fold 5 event

The Verge's Nilay Patel, Alex Cranz, and Richard Lawler discuss Twitter being rebranded as X. Allison Johnson joins the show to discuss everything announced at Samsung’s Galaxy Flip 5 and Fold 5 Unpacked event. Also: we read your emails! Further reading: Twitter is being rebranded as X Elon Musk just changed Twitter’s logo again — sort of Can Elon Musk really use that X logo for Twitter? For Elon Musk, X equals everything Twitter Blue’s former lead talks about Elon Musk, X, and sleeping on the floor Twitter Japan will be called simply, Japan Threads is rolling out its Following feed You can’t just leave Threads in the Following feed The Galaxy Z Fold 5 is last year’s phone with a new hinge The Samsung Galaxy Z Flip 5 gets a big little screen upgrade Samsung goes OLED all the way with the Galaxy Tab S9 tablets The Samsung Galaxy Watch 6 series is all about the bezels DJI Air 3 review: old ideas, new package OpenAI can’t tell if something was written by AI after all Seven major automakers are teaming up on a North American EV charging network T-Mobile says its ultrafast 5G capable of up to 3.3Gbps is rolling out now Boost Infinite’s $25 unlimited wireless plan is now on Amazon Prime T-Mobile’s charging a $5 fee for in-store bill payments My first MP3 player had everything I needed Looking back at the original Chromecast, which just turned 10 years old Japan’s indie game scene is growing up How to build a better search engine than Google Email us at [email protected] or call us at 866-VERGE11, we love hearing from you. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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• 1:11Nilay Patel?

  Hello and welcome to The Vergecast, the flagship podcast of rebranding your company from one name to nothing. It's great. It's, that's what you want when you have a company, is to pick one of the most common letters for naming things for teenage boys. It's great. I'm your friend Neil. I'm in a hotel room in San Francisco for this episode of The Vergecast. I'm going to try not to look at my laptop because I think it will look bad on the YouTube video. So Alex Krantz is here. Hey, Alex.

• 1:35Alex Cranz?

  I'm your friend who's really upset that their college nickname was stolen by a social media company. It's fine.

• 1:41Nilay Patel?

  That was your college nickname?

• 1:42Alex Cranz?

  Yeah, it was like, it was a dumb joke when I had to rush sororities. You get tired of introducing yourself, so I'd be like, just call me X, it's faster. And it was a terrible joke, but it worked. And then everybody called me X. And then people thought I really wanted it, like, and it wasn't a joke.

• 1:58Nilay Patel?

  Oh, no.

• 1:58Alex Cranz?

  Elon, enjoy.

• 1:59Nilay Patel?

  Were you super straight edge in college? No.

• 2:02Alex Cranz?

  I was in a sorority.

• 2:04Nilay Patel?

  Fair enough. David Pierce on vacation this week. Richard Lawler coming back in like a hero to step in. Hey, Richard.

• 2:09Speaker 04

  Hey, I have takes. I also, for a moment there, thought that Alex's college nickname was Orchid. It's gonna be weird, but.

• 2:16Nilay Patel?

  It's weird. Yeah, for, for my second year in college, I went by Google Plus. No one liked it. It was just the thing that I did. It was my funk rock name.

• 2:24Alex Cranz?

  Stop stealing our names. Come on, guys.

• 2:26Nilay Patel?

  All right. A lot to talk about this week. There is the big rebrand from Twitter to X. Number of people have asked me to explain trademark law, which is a blessing and a curse, really, if you're me. Then there's a huge Samsung event, the Flip Five, the Fold Five hit. Allison Johnson's gonna join the show, talk about that stuff. Bunch of lightning round stuff to get through. And then we asked people for consumer debates last week. We've gotten so many responses to this. I do want to point out that some people told us straight out that they have very strong preferences for windshield washer fluid. I love, I love all of you. We have some people who go by color. They're, they're very strong proponents of blue.

• 3:09Nilay Patel?

  A lot of people loving Rain-X.

• 3:12Speaker 04

  Oh, Rain-X has a hive.

• 3:13Nilay Patel?

  I didn't know. I didn't know. And we poked that hive and the Rain-X people came to us. And then at least two people were like, what are you doing? Just use water.

• 3:26Alex Cranz?

  What?

• 3:26Nilay Patel?

  Strident emails from people saying you should just use water. I don't know what they're talking about because where I live, it gets cold outside. It, it won't solve the problem for many months of the year to spray more water onto the snow-covered windshield.

• 3:42Alex Cranz?

  Just covering it in sheets of ice every time.

• 3:45Nilay Patel?

  Just straight icicles shooting out of the windshield washers. But yeah, the Rain-X people, very strong. This is a real email we got. Rain-X is the only acceptable washer fluid. It is orange. Don't be blue. Your choice is the original or the bug wash. That is a strident opinion about what, what color. I'm telling you, it's all based on colors. Anyhow, we got more to come later in the show. We have a massive list of ones people sent to us. X versus Y. I suspect we will be talking about this for months to come. It's gonna be, it's gonna be pretty good. But let's start with, uh, when I promise we'll move through this quickly. The, the weirdest news of the week, uh, which is Elon sort of flippantly renaming Twitter to X.

• 4:27Nilay Patel?

  Basically by, by tweet fiat, like he just tweeted it into existence and then everyone had to pretend it was the plan. Richard, you've been on top of this. Tell me what's going on here.

• 4:36Speaker 04

  It kind of started this weekend. Elon has been talking about rebranding Twitter as X pretty much since he started to take over, take it over. He made this X company, its parent company a while ago. And then this weekend he just went ahead and did it. He said, we're X now. He hadn't changed anything. Everything on the site still said Twitter and even now it still kind of says Twitter all over the place. But he says that they're not tweets anymore. They're, they're X's or I, I don't know. I don't know how you pronounce that. I haven't really gotten that far into it. We've got a logo that is a letter X. It might just be a font. It might have changed a little bit. We don't know it's gone. He changed it back and then he changed it to another thing. It got wider, it got narrower. But this is where we live now. It's X. It's not Twitter. It's, it's X, even though it says Twitter everywhere.

• 5:19Nilay Patel?

  It says Twitter everywhere. The domain is still Twitter. No one knows what to call a tweet anymore. There's some argument that you have to call them zits.

• 5:27Alex Cranz?

  No, no.

• 5:28Nilay Patel?

  That's what the people say.

• 5:29Alex Cranz?

  I know I'm a big proponent of calling them all tweets, even the threads and the other ones. And I've come around. They're all posts now. Now that Twitter is dead, they're all posts now. I'm not calling them zits. Don't, don't come at me with that.

• 5:42Nilay Patel?

  Well, your argument makes more sense now. You can call anything a tweet now because they don't care.

• 5:46Alex Cranz?

  But that's like, I'm just like, having to be like, having to differentiate and be like, oh yeah, did you see that thread tweet? Did you see that X?

• 5:56Nilay Patel?

  Oh, right. Did you see that post?

• 5:58Alex Cranz?

  Yeah. Like, I'm like, okay, I guess posts it is. You guys wore me down. I'm, I'm like, I couldn't hold strong.

• 6:05Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 6:05Alex Cranz?

  Much like everyone who works at X now. They couldn't stop him.

• 6:09Nilay Patel?

  We've talked a lot about how Elon has said he wants Twitter now X to be an everything app along the lines of China's WeChat. That's a big concept to unpack, but I just want to call out Linda Yaccarino, who is the CEO of X, nominally in charge of this, this company, had a tweet thread, an X thread about what she thinks this thing is going to turn into. Alex, I just want you to read it to us. It is incredible.

• 6:33Alex Cranz?

  I'm not going to read the entire thing, but I'm going to read one of the relevant posts because we're not calling them tweets anymore. Tweets are dead. X is the future state of unlimited interactivity centered in a audio, video messaging, payments, banking, creating a global marketplace for ideas, goods, services, and opportunities powered by AI. X will connect us all in ways we're just beginning to imagine.

• 7:01Nilay Patel?

  Now, I understand that Linda was the former head of advertising for NBC Universal. This is ad copy.

• 7:08Alex Cranz?

  It's like, I think everyone understands she was the former ad exec.

• 7:12Nilay Patel?

  Once you're everything, you are nothing. I just, I, I, I believe in focus more than anything. What this reminds me of more than anything, I swear to God, the first thing I thought of when I read this is the speech that Big Brother gives in Apple's 1984 ads where he's like, "With the Information Purification Directive, we have achieved total world domination. You will be free from the shackles of conflicting thoughts like Workers of the World Unite." And then the lady throws the hammer through it and they're like, "We made the Macintosh." Go watch that ad. Which side of that story do you want to be on?

• 7:48Nilay Patel?

  Like the Big Brother side or the lady with the hammer? Like, we're the lady with the hammer. That's where The Verge has always lived.

• 7:54Alex Cranz?

  I love that they just like announced that they basically want like a, some sort of monopoly. They're like, "We are out to build a monopoly for everything and control all things." And it's like, well, that's actually a bad pitch.

• 8:06Nilay Patel?

  I mean, it's, it's a great pitch if you can pull it off, but this idea that you're going to start by rebranding the company to X and then you will with somehow with AI. But like, you know, she's a marketer because she's like powered by AI.

• 8:19Alex Cranz?

  That was the best part.

• 8:20Nilay Patel?

  Like a minute ago, she would have been like, "Powered by NFTs, X will be the future state of an Eric," like whatever it is today.

• 8:26Alex Cranz?

  5G.

• 8:26Nilay Patel?

  5G.

• 8:27Speaker 04

  Tell me you're a marketing executive without telling me you're a marketing executive.

• 8:30Nilay Patel?

  X is a self-driving car, like whatever it is. Centered in audio, video messaging, payments and banking. You know what's not in there is tweets. Centered in audio? Isn't that messaging? I don't think that's messaging.

• 8:45Speaker 04

  What are you talking about? This is the best app to watch the Super Mario Brothers movie on, right? Is that one?

• 8:49Nilay Patel?

  It's just incredible. And Lynda will be at the Code Conference this year. Julie Burson's gonna interview her. That's in September. We're very excited about it. Many questions to ask, but you just look at this vision for what they want X to be. And it's funny to make fun of it and there's a lot of marketing, but you can see why they're saying this. This is WeChat. Like, there are apps like this, super apps, all around the world. Facebook pursued a super app model for a long time. They have discovered that in the United States market in particular, you need multiple apps. You just can't do it the way that you can do it in China. I think Line is an app like this in Japan. There's other countries where this model works.

• 9:31Nilay Patel?

  So you see why you'd say it. You want a messaging app that does payments and banking and hotel reservations and all the other stuff that WeChat can do. It has an extensible plugin architecture. There's actually a long argument that the cellphone market in China is more competitive than anywhere else because the application layer is in WeChat. So it's easier to switch between platforms because then you just download WeChat and run everything in WeChat and it doesn't matter. And you can pick like a camera or a form factor or whatever because at the end of the day, all your apps are running in WeChat. You can feel any way you want about that, including that the Chinese government is almost certainly scamming WeChat at all times because it's like an oppressive, whatever. But that's the argument, right? That this exists somewhere at scale and makes them a lot of money

• 10:16Nilay Patel?

  and has all kinds of weird downstream effects on, on, like gadgets. Cool. You have Twitter. You're starting from the base of Twitter. Which is so creaky right now. You had to impose rate limits on the API. And it kinda doesn't work and it's like full of like weird blue check spam. Elon's doing anti-vax conspiracies. Like this week.

• 10:37Alex Cranz?

  He's having a great time.

• 10:38Nilay Patel?

  How are you gonna get from here to there? There's no plan as far as I can see.

• 10:42Speaker 04

  Well, I think the first step is that you reveal that your executives will allow people to look into the backend of people's accounts. Pretty much it will. And that's how you're going to get that trust for people to use this as a banking and payments app. Like just to say that we're gonna do the files and we're gonna let people who have administrative access and look into accounts whenever they want to.

• 11:01Nilay Patel?

  I mean, that's, uh, that's true. That's what you want. Again, if your plan is WeChat, you're like, how do we do some Chinese government stuff?

• 11:07Alex Cranz?

  That's like the selling point.

• 11:08Nilay Patel?

  Let's, let's begin. So that's that. That's like the broad strokes. I, I think that he did it to get attention. I think Elon is a master of getting attention. I also think that he makes all of his Twitter news on the weekends. Say what you want about him. Like he's obviously not, doesn't give a shit about Twitter Monday through Friday. Right? He's like worried about his companies that make money. And then like the white wine starts flowing on Friday night and Twitter's plans change by Sunday evening. Like that's the news cycle we're in with pretty, pretty enforced consistency. I think he's good at getting attention. I think that he sees what's happening with threads. We can talk about threads in the following feed and stuff they introduced, but he's gotta keep continuously recapturing attention for Twitter.

• 11:48Nilay Patel?

  Cause that's the entire game he's in. So I'm gonna change the name to X. Screw it. We're doing it tonight. Send me some logos. It's a great way to capture. It has kept him in the conversation. Even as threads rolls out a following feed. I think in a few weeks, special world, a web app. That's what Adam is saying. By the time threads rolls out a web app, Elon's gonna be like, it is a self-driving car. X is making a self-driving car. I've merged it with Tesla. Like, that's just where his brain is to capture attention. I just don't think he's got the capability to do any of this stuff because he fired everybody.

• 12:20Alex Cranz?

  He has zero capability to do it. And it's like, okay, you renamed it. You're capturing attention. Is that attention turning into users and/or money?

• 12:30Speaker 04

  As measured by, uh, user seconds in the app. Yes.

• 12:34Alex Cranz?

  Oh, is it?

• 12:34Speaker 04

  The statistic that is so great that absolutely no one other than Elon Musk uses and no one seems to understand exactly what it is. But judging by that statistic, yes, he is winning. I mean, I think my big question is, can he use that X logo for Twitter? You have to explain this to the people.

• 12:49Nilay Patel?

  All right.

• 12:49Alex Cranz?

  You just queued him up.

• 12:50Speaker 04

  We're arguing all over the internet. He's got this logo. What is it? Can he actually do that?

• 12:55Nilay Patel?

  We're 11 minutes in and we're at IP law. Okay, so I just.

• 12:58Alex Cranz?

  Speed run.

• 12:59Nilay Patel?

  This is my, again, this is just what I do. This boulder's going up the hill. Please, I beg you, if you're a Vergecast listener, before you type the word copyright, trademark, or patent into a text box on the internet, just ask yourself, do I know what this word means and if it applies to this concept? I beg you, because this is exhausting. So we talk a lot about copyright law on the show lately because of AI. That's one thing. Then there's trademarks, which are for business, right? They signify the origin of goods and services. That's all they're meant to do. You buy a thing, it has the name of a company on it, you know that company exists, you trust them, they're a market tool, right? And there's lots of rules around it. They're not copyrights, totally different thing. So I just want to start there. This is like a whole different world, whole different body of law, whole different set of legal standards.

• 13:44Nilay Patel?

  It's just the relationship is like, can you own an idea? And then people like lose their minds. I just want to start there. Totally different than copyrights, totally different than patents, different standards, different ideas, different whole thing. Okay, so trademarks. Look, many different people can own the same trademark, just applied to different goods and services. And the standard is likelihood of confusion. Will people get confused by seeing this stuff? Then there's stuff like distinctiveness. Is this mark distinctive? Such that it, when in the market, when people see this trademark, they will understand this is coming from you and then not be confused that might be coming from somewhere else. So X, the letter X, is not very distinctive. You have to do a lot of work to make it distinctive in a particular category.

• 14:29Alex Cranz?

  Rude to my college me, though.

• 14:30Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, like when you hear the letter X, what you think of is Alex just at a rager in the basement of a sorority house.

• 14:37Alex Cranz?

  That's what you should think of, yeah.

• 14:38Nilay Patel?

  Chugging, chugging Everclear out of a Fiji bottle. And if we repeat it enough times, we can say, you can't use the X trademark because everyone associates it with that image of Alex Cranz.

• 14:49Alex Cranz?

  Let's do it, guys. Make it happen.

• 14:51Nilay Patel?

  But that's the entire game. Can you make people associate this word or this logo with this company and this product? And once you can, you can go get a trademark. And there's ways to short circuit that process. You can file, it's called like an intent to use application, this whole thing. But the core idea is, is there an association between this word, image, logo, whatever, and this product and company? So Twitter, very distinctive from the jump, the logo, very distinctive. There's not another thing called Twitter. So they file the trademark for Twitter. They say we have an intent to use it. Over time, they build up a huge amount of equity in the brand, such that if you launched anything else named Twitter, you would say, they would be able to say, there's a huge likelihood of confusion. People will think your Twitter product comes from us, Twitter, the company.

• 15:37Nilay Patel?

  You can't use that trademark. That's the whole game. So X, there's lots of things named X. There's lots of companies named X. There's lots of products named X. Famously, Elon's other companies have X's in them. It's great. He can use it. Just no one else can stop him because there is so much latent noise around the letter X. Then, Richard, I think what you're getting to is the logo might just be like a Unicode character or the X from a foundry called Monotype. That seems really unclear. Like Unicode will let him do it, but if it turns out they're actually using a Monotype character, they got to pay some licensing fees. That's just money. That's fine. You can solve that problem. It might be a lot of licensing fees. That might be a huge mistake for a company like Twitter that's in trouble, but it's a money problem. It's not like a legal problem.

• 16:23Nilay Patel?

  Then there's the last piece of it, which everyone has like gotten completely wrong in just horrific ways, is that Meta and Microsoft have trademarks on things with X's in them as they relate to social networking. And so when you file for a trademark, you have to say what the trademark is for. So I could file for a trademark on the letter X as it relates to selling fruit by the roadside. And it would have nothing to do with the trademark for X as it relates to social networking. So you go and you list a class of what you want to do with a trademark. So you can get definition in the market. This is going to relate this to that. So if you, very famously, the Apple logo on the side of NYC taxis, the city of New York and Apple had to define the class.

• 17:05Nilay Patel?

  They didn't negotiate to say this logo is about taxis and like taxis being eco-friendly and not about Apple, the computers. Fine, it's a negotiation, but you just make the definition and you move on your way. Here, Microsoft had one for Mixer that was just, it's the logo X. So they trademarked the logo, the drawing. And if you use that drawing or anything that looks substantially like that drawing, you get in trouble, but they're not using that drawing. So it doesn't matter. Then if you will remember, Microsoft launched Mixer. Remember they pulled Ninja over, tried to get everyone off of Twitch. Mixer failed, Ninja went back to Twitch. Microsoft divested this whole thing to Facebook Gaming and assigned this logo to Facebook as part of that deal. So now Meta owns this logo as it relates to social networking, but it's just the logo.

• 17:48Nilay Patel?

  It's not the letter X, it's the drawing, not the letter. Meta owns another thing called X. It doesn't matter because they're just logos. So everyone's getting confused about the letter X and what it protects. And it's really nothing. Like, at the end of the day, it's, he's not going to use those logos. No one's going to confuse this X logo for that logo. And so many people are already using the letter X for everything else that his problem is actually making anyone associate the letter X with the thing that used to be Twitter as opposed to all of the other things that are named X, which is probably a bigger problem than his legal challenges.

• 18:21Alex Cranz?

  So this is why the Twitter Japanese account is just called Japan currently instead of X Japan, because X Japan is the name of one of the most famous bands in Japanese history.

• 18:33Nilay Patel?

  So I've seen people report on this. I do not know enough about Japanese trademark law.

• 18:37Alex Cranz?

  They definitely have it called Japan. So I think there's still a lot of confusion there, but I'd know the X Japan like lead composer was like, he can't call it X Japan, that's the name of our band. I'm looking into it. And I think that's kind of where we're at. And Twitter notably is not calling Twitter Japan X Japan anymore. They're just calling it Japan.

• 19:02Nilay Patel?

  So, but there's a huge difference in Twitter handles and trademarks.

• 19:06Alex Cranz?

  Right, right, right.

• 19:07Nilay Patel?

  Ex Japan, the band, might have a trademark in Japan for the name of its band, but that's for the name of a band.

• 19:14Alex Cranz?

  Right.

• 19:14Nilay Patel?

  I don't know if they have a trademark on social networking cup. Like, you can probably start a company in Japan called Ex Japan. Because it won't be the band. This, and this is the thing that everyone gets confused with the trademark law. Like, you, as long as people aren't confused that one thing is the other, like, usually trademark law, you have the same name for two things.

• 19:30Alex Cranz?

  Could you?

• 19:32Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 19:32Alex Cranz?

  Like, if I went and started a car company called DMX, I feel like someone's estate would probably have something to say to me.

• 19:40Nilay Patel?

  You could definitely start. I, I don't know if DMX has a trademark registration for DMX cars. Like, that's the, the, trademark law is just not like copyright law. It's not the same thing where like any copy gets you in trouble. It's like, narrowly, if you start DMX cars, I love that we're using this example. If you start DMX cars, and like, you have nothing to do with DMX, you don't trade on any of his likeness, and you don't use his lyrics, and it's totally different, and you say this is distinctive, and he doesn't have a trademark registration in cars, you can probably do it. You should talk to a lawyer. I'm not giving you this legal, I don't think you should start DMX cars. More hassle than it's worth.

• 20:16Speaker 04

  So your legal advice, as my lawyer, is that I can start DMX cars, I just can't use the tagline, "It's dark and hell is hot."

• 20:22Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, I think that's bad. Like, you will get in trouble. Like, the standard is likelihood of confusion. Is it likely that by using the name DMX cars, people will be confused that DMX has anything to do with it? I don't know the answer to that question. I don't think anyone should find out the answer to that question. I'm just telling you what the standard is. So if you're in Japan, I don't know what the standard in Japanese trademark law is. I'm just telling you that it is almost certain that you can start a company called Ex Japan. Because people will not confuse the company for the band, right? I do not think that has any relationship at all to Twitter handles. If they wanted to take the Ex Japan Twitter handle, they could, because it belongs to them.

• 21:02Nilay Patel?

  And we know that they think this, because they just took the Ex Twitter handle from some guy. And the guy was like, "That sucks," and he's not a world famous band, and so they're not in trouble.

• 21:13Alex Cranz?

  But they couldn't have taken it, like, if they had taken it from the Ex Japan band, they just would have looked like Monster. Jackass.

• 21:19Nilay Patel?

  Even more worse monsters than they are. Like, you know, like, I don't, I, I think that's what's stopping them. Not the law, the trademark law of Japan. It's their platform. They can take any handle they want. And there's really no relationship between the handles and the trademark law. There, there's like some minor relationship, like the platforms will respect trademark law to keep, to keep impersonation off their platforms. Like if someone shows up and makes a verge handle and starts tweeting and it looks like us. Like, we show up to the platform and say, this is our trademark. That's impersonation. Like, make it go away. Twitter notably, a lot looser on the impersonation situation than it used to be. So like, I, I just think like, everyone's getting these concepts like fairly mushy and confused.

• 22:03Nilay Patel?

  That the handles and the actual trademarks, no relationship really whatsoever, unless Twitter decides there should be a relationship. And then the trademark laws of different countries are slightly different, but all of them are pretty focused on. You're in the supermarket, you look at the label, you see Kellogg's and you know that that is actually from Kellogg's and you have a relationship. And that's market information you can trade on. And if you go out of the supermarket and you go to a clothing store and you see T-shirts. Made by another company called Kellogg with a radically different logo and it's a radically different product. You're not going to associate with cereal maker. And so both of those companies can have those names. Fine. Like that, that's basically fine. And I think that's the situation Elon is in.

• 22:44Nilay Patel?

  And everyone just wants to find a gotcha. But the gotcha here is that it's a shit name that means nothing. But the market will handle this problem.

• 22:52Alex Cranz?

  Here's my next question. He, he, they're famously using something that looks a lot like a very specific Unicode. For X, like a Unicode symbol for X. Generally speaking, you get yelled at if you use somebody's logo in like your name or something like that because it's their logo. How does that work if I decide to use that X as the end of like my name? Just, I wouldn't ever do that because that's dumb.

• 23:17Nilay Patel?

  Oh, like the Unicode X?

• 23:18Alex Cranz?

  Yeah, if I use that same Unicode X, if it starts being, comes associated with this other thing, even though it's like openly licensed and. Theoretically, anyone can use it. If they copyright it specifically, if they like copyright that logo specifically for them, what happens if we start using that Unicode? Or does the Unicode X have to get rid of it?

• 23:38Nilay Patel?

  They trademark, they trademark.

• 23:39Alex Cranz?

  Oh, my gosh. So confusing.

• 23:42Nilay Patel?

  This is the thing. It's driving me bonkers. Imagine being me on a plane, just freaking out 35,000 feet while this is going down.

• 23:49Alex Cranz?

  So can I use the X or am I like?

• 23:52Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 23:53Alex Cranz?

  I can use it anytime.

• 23:54Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. Like they can't stop, unless you're holding yourself out as X, the company. They're not going to be able to stop you. They can, they can send you letters. Uh, well, the fame, my, my favorite letter that we ever got, Richard, I don't even remember this. Uh, we used to run a site called Engadget Mobile. It was pink. So Engadget was blue. Engadget Mobile was pink. What was Engadget HD, Richard? That was yours. A gray, I think. It was gray. And so it was hot pink. And T-Mobile, when they started using magenta a lot, sent us a letter. That was like, we own the shade of pink. And we're like, no, you don't, bro. Also, we're going to publish this letter. And then we bought, and like Ryan Block and Peter has published the letter. And then they were like, oh, that was really stupid. Our lawyers will never do that again. And that was the end of it. And that's like, how it goes.

• 24:37Alex Cranz?

  So we can all use the X anytime we want. The one, the Unicode X.

• 24:41Nilay Patel?

  There's not a situation in which you typing a letter implicates their trademark.

• 24:46Alex Cranz?

  Right. But if I like use it as part of my name on a whole bunch of different social media apps. Like I start using, cause you can use, you know, Unicode symbols and a lot of different ones. They all print it. And I start using that X. Could they eventually come after me being like, stop it? Like if you started using the Netflix N for your first name, for some reason that was in Unicode. And you started using that all the time. Wouldn't Netflix eventually be like, hey, stop?

• 25:15Nilay Patel?

  I don't know why the Netflix N would be in Unicode. It would just be the letter N.

• 25:18Alex Cranz?

  Hypothetical, hypothetical. Not everyone takes their logos from Unicode because that seems deeply stupid.

• 25:25Nilay Patel?

  I guess you, you've now landed on the answer to your question.

• 25:28Alex Cranz?

  Yeah.

• 25:28Nilay Patel?

  The Unicode X is just X. You know how like emojis are not standardized? They're just Unicode and you, they're meant to represent something like.

• 25:37Alex Cranz?

  Yeah.

• 25:38Nilay Patel?

  Right, car. And then like Samsung and Apple have different cars. Unicode just represents letters. Like here's a character and then your typeface on your computer, your font is like, okay, that's an A. I'm going to represent this A. It's, there's not like a Unicode font. So this X that they're pulling from that's in Unicode, you can render it in any font you want. It just hap- it's just because of the, the way the lines work, it looks like a thing.

• 26:02Alex Cranz?

  Yeah.

• 26:03Nilay Patel?

  But it's just a, you know, I mean, it's like literally a series of numbers that say to a computer, "Make this character." And then between that instruction and you is the computer saying, "Okay, in this font."

• 26:15Alex Cranz?

  Okay. It just happens to look like the logo of this company that will presumably be trademarked at some point.

• 26:22Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, I think it will be very difficult for that, like especially if the design is, if they were just like the letter A, conceptually is our trademark. That's this X as it relates to Unicode, right? So like, who, who the hell knows? It is remarkable, and I know we're gonna get emails about this. People are gonna say, "You're like, we're spending so much time talking about this dumb thing." It's so dumb. And it's, one, I, I am a sucker for a trademark law conversation, so here we are. Welcome to our show. This is always happens. Uh, two, this is the dismantling of what was one of the most influential information networks that has ever existed.

• 27:03Nilay Patel?

  And so you, you have to talk about it because what Twitter meant, like what the word Twitter meant, to make this about trademark law, what that word meant, what the word tweet meant to people conveyed so much meaning. This celebrity tweeted an apology. You already know the whole story. I don't even need to say a celebrity. I don't need to say what the apology was about. I don't need to tell you that it was a screenshot in Notes app. Right? Like the meaning was, the word was imbued with meaning that had emotional resonance throughout the culture. That has been dismantled. And it is, it is worth discussing why that is happening and to what end. And I think the end is, is nonsensical, right? It's an audio video platform that will enable banking and put AI in your bones or whatever the hell it's gonna do.

• 27:48Nilay Patel?

  But the thing itself was important. If it gets there. But yeah, the, the people freaking out about trademark law is like, at Engadget, I wrote so many of these stories that I just had the, the middle part of it in a text expander. I was just like T M L and it was just like spit out 150 words of trademark law explainer.

• 28:08Alex Cranz?

  Emma's gonna ask for that tip like she's gonna be like, you still got that boilerplate for me?

• 28:12Nilay Patel?

  I did it, you know, in Apple versus Samsung time, I wrote so many patent law stories that were effectively just explainers about how patents work, which we won't do here. But we're just in that time when the idea of like how to own an idea is very complicated because that's all the internet is, is a bunch of people sort of ephemerally sending ideas around without any like limits on scarcity. And that just like the AI copyright conversation is like a big deal. Here in trademark law, it's like people search the trademark database and like Meta already owns X. And it's like, okay, let's step back to figure out what trademarks are even for, right? And then you just have to start at the start.

• 28:46Speaker 04

  And that brings us to now where we've got all of these things. He's sort of changed the name. He has, he has mostly changed the name, has changed on Android, but not on iOS as I'm speaking, maybe by the time you hear this, it will have changed in the iOS app. Twitter has tried to push businesses into buying more ads so they can stay, or I'm sorry, X has tried to push businesses into buying more ads so they can stay verified. We had Esther Crawford, uh, characters coming back from past seasons. Suddenly pop up, talking about what it was like to work at Twitter until she was fired and sleeping on the floor and how Elon listens to whoever just happens to be around and takes random ideas. Is there, is there anything else we haven't discussed?

• 29:20Nilay Patel?

  The one thing I want to point out is Threads rolled out its following feed this week. Great, it's cool. It immediately showcases how little volume there is on Threads. Like I've got a lot of people on Threads, everyone's still posting on Twitter. So that hasn't happened yet. I think it won't happen until they roll out the web version, which both Zuckerberg and Adam Mosseri have said they're gonna do. Uh, and Mosseri in a response to Casey, Zuckerberg in response to Lauren Good. So Verge Alumni Network out there getting us what we need. But if you don't have the web version, it's, it's very hard for true posters to keep up the pace. So I think that's like coming, but you can't leave the app stuck in the following feed. It's not a sticky preference. It defaults you. If your app gets pushed out of memory or reboots in any way, or even it seems like

• 30:02Nilay Patel?

  just whenever it feels like it, it'll drop you back into the algorithmic feed, which is just a pure pain in the ass. And they should just make that setting sticky. And that's just respecting user preferences. Like I don't, I don't feel like I'm being a diva about this. It's like I set the preference, leave it alone. Like my car is not like I've moved the seat around to what I think will be more appropriate for you. It's like, just leave it. It seems very simple to me.

• 30:24Alex Cranz?

  It's a real clippy move.

• 30:25Nilay Patel?

  It's surreal. It sounds, it seems like you, what you want is the Nugget account. Like here it is again. All right, we should take a break. That's been a lot of X talk. Again, if you're mad at us, I'm just telling you, Twitter was massively important. I'm very excited about the reset moment of the internet. If you've listened to other episodes of the show, you know, I think there's a reset moment on the internet. I think search and AI, Sunil Pichai this week, said the search generative experience is the future of search. That's the clearest and most crisply he has said that. That's a big deal. We're in a moment of reset for the internet. Taking a second to talk about the thing that was before we go on to the next thing, I think it's fine. Also, you can just hit skip on your podcast player because right now, we're going to talk about gadgets in a serious way with Allison Johnson because it was Samsung

• 31:10Nilay Patel?

  event this week. We'll be right back.

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• 32:19Nilay Patel?

  We're back. Alison Johnson has joined us. Hey, Alison.

• 32:21Speaker 05

  Hello.

• 32:21Nilay Patel?

  Big Samsung event this week. Lots of noise around the Samsung event. Samsung's finances are in disarray. They had earnings as well. Profits are down. There's some data I saw that said iPhone sales in South Korea are up, which is weird. Not great to lose on your home turf. But the phones look good, right? It's the Flip 5 and the Fold 5 that launched at Unpacked. What's going on here?

• 32:43Speaker 05

  Yeah, I guess the big story is that they fold flat now, so. Yeah, we got a new flip style and fold style phone. They finally figured out how to make the hinges fold totally flat. And the flip 5 is really, is the one I'm most excited about. I think it's the more interesting kind of update of the two. It comes with a much bigger, like still small, but a lot bigger cover screen. It's 3.6 inches now, which is just going to totally change what you can do with the phone as opposed to the like really tiny screen on the flip 4. So that's a big story, I think.

• 33:23Alex Cranz?

  Was it really that tiny, the previous one?

• 33:26Speaker 05

  It was tiny, yeah. Because one of the cool things is you can like frame a selfie and use the rear facing cameras and get a preview. I held up a postage stamp to the preview you get. It's the exact same size as a postage stamp. It's like so hard to see yourself.

• 33:43Alex Cranz?

  Okay, never mind. That is tiny.

• 33:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah. Like the screen itself was bigger than a postage stamp.

• 33:48Alex Cranz?

  Like not even a good postage stamp, the little ones.

• 33:51Speaker 05

  Not even the like forever stamps, like the old school ones with no barcode. Yeah, the fold 5 is like an extremely minor update, aside from the hinge thing, which is exciting, but that's even saying a lot.

• 34:06Alex Cranz?

  I mean, the hinge thing is exciting though, right? Like, like this is a big deal because everybody was a couple of weeks ago, Pixel, we got that with a Pixel fold and oh my God, it's so flat. And it's like, well, we're certainly going to get this. And we did. And these, but Samsung's been doing this a lot longer. They've got a lot more other stuff that's polished in that way. Like, you haven't gotten a hold of it yet, right?

• 34:28Speaker 05

  I am awaiting my review and it's, no, they were supposed to be here yesterday and we're having conversations. I should get phones tomorrow. I'm anxiously awaiting.

• 34:39Alex Cranz?

  But you're like pumped. You're kind of excited to like check it out and like see how this works when it's flat and made by someone who's been doing this a while.

• 34:47Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, that's the thing. I mean, Like the Pixel Fold, I really like the form factor and really like that it folds flat. But when I was using it, I just kind of kept having these feelings like, oh, well, Samsung is like doing this a little better. You can, there's more multitasking, there's just more customization. And you definitely just get the feeling like Samsung is way ahead in foldables. So when they do make that little upgrade, it's just kind of like putting a stamp on something that was already pretty good. Yeah. So it is exciting. Well, like the, a little boring.

• 35:25Nilay Patel?

  Samsung just isn't constrained by having to run Android. Like their ability to just mess with the software to support folding is just, Google has to do it for everybody, right? You can see Google's like, very careful. They're trying to like make standards, make it universal so that anybody makes a folding phone kind of gets it for free. That's their job, I think, is the OS vendor. Like that's they have to. Samsung's just like, I don't know, Bixy's gonna make the app bigger. Like, they just don't have to give a shit. And so they, I think they're able to experiment more or iterate faster. That, just watching the, like, the little bit of the keynotes that I haven't been able to see, they, they're just able to take bigger risks with like, what does it mean for the screen to get bigger?

• 36:07Speaker 04

  So Samsung can force Instagram into making an app that fills up your whole screen and Google can't.

• 36:14Speaker 05

  Or they'll, they'll put the option to make it bigger or run to Instagram side by side, you know, like somewhere in the, in, deep in the menu settings. They're, they're happy to put something in the menu settings for you to do what you want.

• 36:28Nilay Patel?

  Why are you more excited about the flip?

• 36:30Speaker 05

  I, maybe just coming off of the Razr Plus, the Motorola Razr Plus, which has the really big cover screen. It was kind of a light bulb for me. It, it felt like, oh, I finally get what these flip style phones can do. Just with being able to interact more with the front screen, you can write texts on it, which you couldn't do before with the smaller cover screen. You can go into the settings and let it run full apps for you, which is like, not generally recommended, but if you're a sick, if you're a sicko, like me, you could do that. And then that's where I was just having a lot of fun, like, finding things, like, you can run Google Translate on it, and it's, it's not a super experience, but I can like,

• 37:14Speaker 05

  Type in a word in Spanish and just get a translation without like doing a whole thing on my phone. So I'm, I'm excited to see what Samsung's take on this is and if they're, I have a hunch that like their software is gonna be ahead of Motorola's here, but I, I don't know. I'm, I'm just excited to check them out side by side. Are you gonna watch the Oppenheimer trailer on it?

• 37:41Speaker 05

  I guess so. I haven't watched it at all. So. See how big it is. I'll flip it open and watch Barbie after that. There you go.

• 37:51Nilay Patel?

  As Christopher Nolan intended. It's funny. So you're saying like the, it's a light bulb moment with the Motorola one and now the Samsung one. Isn't that just having a phone? Like the whole point of the flip phone factor to me was like, I will close this and my phone will go away. And now you're like, okay, they solved it by putting a giant screen on it and I can use my phone without opening my, I have to be missing something.

• 38:17Speaker 05

  That's a fair point, but here's the thing. So I've been, I've been wearing a smartwatch.

• 38:22Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 38:22Speaker 05

  Cutting edge technology here. And there, I'm just finding there's like a middle ground between stuff I can do on my smartwatch where I just like, I just want to see a text and like dismiss it. And then there's the things you want your full phone for. And then the cover screen is like in between these two things where I can't like Google Translate a word on the smartwatch or I can talk to Siri and I, I don't know. I don't want to do that. So that's where I was finding it was really interesting and helpful. And I think, I think more of those kind of use cases will emerge. It did have the effect of like, you don't get sucked into scrolling Instagram on your phone

• 39:02Speaker 05

  because it is just terrible. Like you can tap on, you can tap on the Instagram notification and just mindlessly you'll start like looking through stuff and you realize like, this is awful. I either need to stop or open the phone. So that's where I was like, aha.

• 39:20Nilay Patel?

  Were you having moments of like, I am not going to open this phone. I will feel guilty if I open the phone?

• 39:25Speaker 05

  I did. Yeah. I mean, I had plenty of moments where I was like, yeah, I'm gonna go for it.

• 39:32Speaker 05

  Can I just dive right into the Instagram feed? But

• 39:34Nilay Patel?

  How is Samsung software, it's switching you from that little screen to the big screen? Cause that's been like, these phones are effectively mid-range phones, right? That it feels like the, the seamlessness of moving between modes has been held back by the sort of mid-range Qualcomm chips in them.

• 39:51Speaker 05

  Yeah, and Samsung's a little further ahead here, too. They have the eight Gen two in this one, which is, has been very good in all the phones I've tested. Yeah, I think they're still figuring out, what do you, what do people want? When they, when you close the phone, do you want to keep running the app that you were running? Should, should it prompt you to open the app? Motorola has a setting where you'll just get a little icon on the cover screen. When you're using an app on the big screen, you close it, it'll kind of be like, tap this to keep running on the outer screen, which I thought was clever and pretty useful and you can ignore it if you don't want to do that. So I think they're still figuring it out and it's definitely different, kind of, you know, app by app.

• 40:36Speaker 05

  So we'll see what Samsung thinks.

• 40:39Nilay Patel?

  And then the, the difference with the Fold 5 is that it really is just a phone on the front. Right? And then you like, open it and you, and then you have a tablet. Is there any relationship between sort of like, it's a phone and it switch, goes down to a widget on the flip? And it's a phone and it opens to a tablet on the fold? Like, those are two wildly different paradigms. It seems like they share some, like conceptual behaviors.

• 41:04Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think they are really kind of splitting a little more now. Like the Fold format feels like if you want phone plus, rather than like a little bit less phone, then you want the, the tablet one. I mean, our, our good friend, Dan Seifert will recommend a Fold tablet style for you. That's how he watches Oppenheimer, actually. That's his favorite way to watch every movie. I guess. It haunts me.

• 41:35Speaker 05

  That he does that. With Instagram running on the side. Yeah, it's, I see the appeal and I, I appreciate it for stuff that I'm like sitting on the couch using the phone, you know, closed and I'm like, oh, I need to do this thing that I would normally go get my laptop for. Like I need to make an Amazon Fresh order and it's just like obnoxious to do it on a small screen. Yeah, those moments where you're like, I either, I need to put this phone down and go get my laptop. That's when you fold it open and you're like, no, I can, I can run two things on the same screen. I can have, I don't need to be like tabbing between apps. I can, I can figure out where I'm gonna have lunch, you know, in Google Maps and read

• 42:17Speaker 05

  the restaurant website. I, I get all that and I respect it and it's very cool. I'm excited about the flip.

• 42:27Speaker 04

  The flip also costs a lot less.

• 42:29Speaker 05

  It's like a thousand bucks.

• 42:30Speaker 04

  Cause I'm excited about those things, but I'm not $1,800 excited, which is how much the like fold and the pixel fold costs.

• 42:36Speaker 05

  Yeah, for $1,800, I'll get off the couch and go look at my laptop, I think. That's enough money. So I, I think it's an interesting moment for the flip phones. Just being at that $9.99 price point is like, we're used to paying that much for phones or like having our carriers pay that much and paying them back with our contracts. So I think those are positioned a little better to take off and I'm curious how the, how the kind of like minimalist aspects of the phone are gonna appeal to people or, I don't know, maybe, maybe we all just do really want phone plus. Maybe we all want more phone all the time.

• 43:20Nilay Patel?

  Everyone just wants bigger screens. That's my theory.

• 43:22Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 43:23Nilay Patel?

  Although e- even in this case, you're like, you know, it really unlocked these flip phones for me was when they added bigger screens to the front.

• 43:29Speaker 05

  It's it's

• 43:30Nilay Patel?

  All of all of tech is figuring out where you make the screen bigger to make people buy the next one is the inside. No, this time it's the outside like that's that's that's the tech industry.

• 43:40Speaker 05

  And next time around the back, we'll have a screen and then I'm sold.

• 43:44Nilay Patel?

  Do they say anything about durability? Well, I mean, this is what people are afraid of the most with these phones.

• 43:49Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's kind of this a little more the same this year. The new hinge has a slightly different structure that's supposed to take impacts a little better. Personally, that's the other thing I'm worried about with a folding phone. I'm worried about like a speck of dust getting under the screen, but they're they have gotten better generation after generation. They say it's it's still rated to like 200,000 folds, which is like five years of use. And it's IP X eight rated, so they're both fully like water submersible. But it's just a question mark like four years down the line. How how good is it at like holding up? You know, how's the hinge? Did you get like a little bit of dust underneath and ruin everything?

• 44:34Speaker 05

  That's the question mark.

• 44:35Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, that IP X eight that X is not dust protected.

• 44:39Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 44:39Nilay Patel?

  Like it's like very obvious. Like, uh, we're not gonna make that promise.

• 44:42Speaker 05

  Like, it's just a nope.

• 44:46Nilay Patel?

  There's some other stuff that happened at Samsung. What else they announce?

• 44:49Speaker 05

  You know what is dust rated? The new tablets.

• 44:53Nilay Patel?

  Oh, my God, Alex.

• 44:55Speaker 05

  That was wasn't that the best segue you've ever heard?

• 44:58Nilay Patel?

  It's good. Some. Yeah, sometimes you gotta just do it like a truck.

• 45:03Nilay Patel?

  Just rumble into this into the frame with a Samsung tablet.

• 45:07Speaker 05

  You know what's really dust rated?

• 45:11Speaker 05

  IP six eight, baby. These new they're S nines, right? That's that's the new name of these. They are outrageously expensive, it sounds like. And everybody else is releasing cheaper Android tablets. Are you excited about them at all, Allison? As like a person who uses Android more than I ever will? No, I'm a terrible person to ask about tablets. I literally just bought like a three year old iPad for my toddler. And that's like. The most I've thought about tablets in the past few years.

• 45:43Alex Cranz?

  I think that's like most people at this point, right? Like, most people are kind of, we're happy to have them, we want them, but they're not something when people get enthusiastic about unless you're really concerned about dust raiding and waterproofing on your new tablet. In which case, and these have OLED screens, like OLED displays. There's the Tab S9, which is 11 inches. The Tab S9 Plus, which is 12.4 inches. And the Ultra, which is 14.6. And at that point, do you just buy a TV?

• 46:19Nilay Patel?

  Do you buy a laptop?

• 46:21Alex Cranz?

  Yeah.

• 46:21Nilay Patel?

  I mean, so this is the, and Google has made some like new investment in Android tablets. Like they're talking about it again, right? They've got the Pixel tablet. Obviously, the foldable phones, particularly the fold and the Pixel Fold. The point of those is you put them in a tablet mode. So there's like a lot of action on the side of the house. And you just look at these Samsung tablets and you're like, these are little laptops, especially at the bigger sizes. They've got all those sort of iPad Pro Surface-like docks and adapters and keyboard. All the stuff is there. And then you're like, but I'm using not just Android, like Samsung S Pen Android. Maybe some people like it, send us emails.

• 47:01Nilay Patel?

  If you're like a hardcore S Pen person and you trust your workflow to that. That just feels tenuous to me. Even if Samsung's been doing it for years. It's like, I'm gonna get backed into a corner of Samsung's weird pen ideas. And then if they ever go away or Samsung like pulls the report and changes it, like, I'll be unsettled. Like, I don't like that.

• 47:25Alex Cranz?

  Going from the little tiny pen to a proper stylus with an iPad is gonna like blow those people's minds.

• 47:32Nilay Patel?

  I won't even, I won't, like, part of the reason that I won't put my workflow in the iPad is every year, Apple's like, here's a new multitasking idea. And they just like rip it out and replace, you know, it's like, or they glue Stage Manager onto it. And I'm like, I got work to do. I, I, I can't be on this journey with you. Call me when you settle down.

• 47:51Alex Cranz?

  It does feel like these Tab S9s, like, they've kind of settled into a lot of it, like the, the changes here are pretty small. They, they seem to have figured it out. They seem comfortable with their price point, even though it's more than everybody else. But they've also been at this price point in this space for a lot longer, more consistently than other Android tablets.

• 48:11Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, I, I, I'm just putting out the call. If you are a hardcore Samsung tablet person and you saw this and you thought, one, I need to switch from an iPad to the S Pen ecosystem. Like, I want to hear, for you in particular, I'm looking at you straight through the barrel of the camera right now. I want to know you.

• 48:30Alex Cranz?

  Right into their soul.

• 48:31Nilay Patel?

  Just please reach out. Or if you are an existing, like, S Pen person and you're like, oh shit, I gotta upgrade. I just want to hear from you. Like, what's it like? In your brain?

• 48:46Nilay Patel?

  Is it cool? Like, let me know. I'm just like dying to know. I think we're, we're past that point, even with the, the, the market leaders. Like, I don't think people are dying to upgrade from one surface to the next. I think their services break or they get slow and then they just get the new one. Allison, I think that's your point about the iPad. Like, at this point, you, you cannot tell me what a new iPad can do that my existing iPad can't do.

• 49:07Speaker 05

  Yeah, it, it's gonna run Cocoa Melon just fine.

• 49:13Nilay Patel?

  And I get it, right? Like, with some of this Vision Pro stuff with Apple, like, there's a whole suite of, I, like, the iPad app ecosystem is the foundation of a bunch of things for Apple in a way that Apple's good at managing their ecosystem. And on the Google side, the Android proper, like, they are making this investment in tablets. Like, I think they see a slow step. Path that way. I'm just very curious, specifically Samsung tablets. Like if you're hardcore in a Samsung, like I just, that's what The Verge is for.

• 49:44Alex Cranz?

  You got a Pixel tablet, get out. Don't email.

• 49:48Nilay Patel?

  How many members are in r/Samsungtablets? Is that even a subreddit? Is there like forum drama in the r/Samsungtablet subreddit? Like, I just want to know.

• 49:59Alex Cranz?

  All right. I can't transition this one as well as the last one, but I do.

• 50:02Nilay Patel?

  What's an IP68 rated?

• 50:04Alex Cranz?

  I don't know the IP68 rating on the new Galaxy Watch 6 series. Cause there's more than one. There's not a Pro right now. There was a Pro last year, but there is, there's a watch and there's a classic. And the big thing Victoria is oh so excited about it is they've got rotating bezels.

• 50:23Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, bring them back.

• 50:24Alex Cranz?

  Yeah.

• 50:25Speaker 05

  Just, just the classic though.

• 50:27Alex Cranz?

  Just the classic?

• 50:28Speaker 05

  Yeah. And which is the one that's a hundred dollars more?

• 50:32Alex Cranz?

  And it's bigger. It's like, comes in like a 44 and a 47 millimeter, which I don't got the wrist for that.

• 50:39Speaker 05

  No.

• 50:40Alex Cranz?

  My wrist can't support that. Like, I gotta, I gotta go to the gym a lot more if I'm gonna wear the watch that big. Like, that's rough. But it seems cool. V I know is like, she's just terrifically excited about it. And it sounds like other watch fans, Samsung watch fans are excited because they can't have Apple Watches. So this is what they have to get excited about.

• 51:00Nilay Patel?

  I mean, they're cool. They look cool. They're round. Like, I love a rotating bezel. I think that's just like, it's so funny that I love it. Like, I think the digital crown is so silly, but I'm like, rotating bezel? That's what sings to me.

• 51:13Alex Cranz?

  Cause it's like, it reminds you of when you'd get that first watch with a rotating bezel as a kid and it had the click. And that click was, oh my God, that's a good click.

• 51:22Speaker 05

  The, the digital crown is annoying with fingernails too. Like, I have to really get my fingernails on it.

• 51:28Alex Cranz?

  Chip your finger, like if you have, uh, paint on your nails, it'll chip a little and then you're like, why should I even manipulate this stupid crown? I'm gonna go get my phone.

• 51:38Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 51:39Alex Cranz?

  If it only had had a rotating bezel, like, get on this Apple. It could be square. It works.

• 51:44Speaker 04

  So the big new feature is not these new funny face watch faces that are extremely creepy. That's not it.

• 51:49Alex Cranz?

  That's also there.

• 51:50Nilay Patel?

  You know how like big things are unsettling? Like things that are slightly too big are unsettling. That's these watch faces.

• 52:00Alex Cranz?

  It's just a little, ooh, I don't, hmm.

• 52:03Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, they're just, I'm like, I'm looking at this seven on this watch face. I'm like, I don't, too big.

• 52:09Alex Cranz?

  Too big.

• 52:09Nilay Patel?

  Too, like, I don't want to look at it anymore.

• 52:12Alex Cranz?

  What if it's just a quick glance at your wrist? I mean, that'll keep you from like, looking at your watch all the time.

• 52:16Nilay Patel?

  No, they've kept the hands at the same size. Actually telling the time on this face in particular is more difficult. The numbers are big and the hands are small. It's a very odd choice.

• 52:27Alex Cranz?

  It's gonna be like this, checking your watch in meetings. It's gonna be great.

• 52:30Nilay Patel?

  Famously, using hands to check the time is so intuitive that you can have big hands and no numbers. Rarely do you see big numbers and no hands.

• 52:39Alex Cranz?

  It's gonna be fun, guys.

• 52:41Nilay Patel?

  I think it's cool.

• 52:42Alex Cranz?

  Yeah, some of them have mouths that I don't like. They all, yeah.

• 52:47Nilay Patel?

  It's all about how you get attention in a Best Buy. It's like, you're walking down the aisle, there's like, that big Apple display that they co-brand, there's whatever, there's like, all the carrier noise, and it's like, does that watch have a mouth? It'll work.

• 53:00Alex Cranz?

  That's the one.

• 53:02Nilay Patel?

  It'll super work to get your attention. All right, we gotta end this. We've talked about watches with teeth for too long. We'll be right back with a lightning round.

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• 54:19Nilay Patel?

  We're back. We're gonna do a quick lightning round and then I just want to read some of the responses we got to consumer product turf wars. I will tell you, we're gonna talk about DeWalt versus Milwaukee on the verge cast today. It's gonna be incredible, but we got some great responses and I want, I want to talk about them. But first, let's do a little lightning round. Crans, you're up first.

• 54:39Alex Cranz?

  All right. OpenAI has been working on a system to detect AI written content. And it's not going well. So they said, we're, we're just gonna stop doing that.

• 54:50Nilay Patel?

  The blog post, they put up a blog post silently. They didn't even tell anyone about it. They're just like, updated the blog post where they had announced this tool and they're like, we have discontinued the tool because the tool doesn't work very well.

• 55:00Alex Cranz?

  They're like, never mind. No, not doing it. And yeah, so, so that's a little disconcerting because there's a lot of, obviously a lot of use cases for where it'd be nice to quickly check if something is written by AI, but it turns out that's a lot harder than getting in AI to like write stuff.

• 55:16Nilay Patel?

  I feel like I am good at detecting when something is written by AI.

• 55:20Alex Cranz?

  Yes. A friend sent me, this is so horrible. A friend sent me an obituary for a friend of theirs who had passed. And it was very clearly written by AI and it said things like, he worked in the Atlantic Ocean.

• 55:36Alex Cranz?

  And the guy apparently would have thought this was absolutely hysterical and would have found it very, very funny, but it's just like, somebody take a pass at that.

• 55:44Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 55:45Speaker 04

  It's one of those things. I feel like it comes from editing so many people so many times, you start to recognize people's phrases and their styles. It's sort of human like in that way in that everyone has favorite phrases that they don't even know they have. And it has that.

• 55:57Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, particularly chat, chat GPT has like tropes and construct, like you can, you can, it has a style. It's a boring robotic style, but it has a style. And like Richard said, if you, if you were in the business of constantly editing other people's writing, you start to recognize style like very quickly. Like I think I could probably read the verge of that bylines and get it 90% right. Who wrote what? Right? Like just on a day to day basis, I can, I can tell you when Liz Lapato has written something.

• 56:25Alex Cranz?

  Next week on the verge.

• 56:28Nilay Patel?

  It's just me guessing of violence. I can, I can probably pick David Pierce out of a block of copy in two seconds flat. Like I've edited David for so long. I know David so well. I think a lot of our listeners can like read us into our writing and it's not we get, you just do a chat GPT now. It's just funny that OpenAI can't do it. Like they're like, we can't do this. The robot can't see itself. It's like a very funny outcome. It's very good. All right, Richard, what's your lightning round?

• 56:54Speaker 04

  Uh, this net discharging network announcement from seven automakers. We've got BMW, GM, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Benz, and Stellantis.

• 57:03Nilay Patel?

  Nice.

• 57:04Speaker 04

  Uh, they combined, they said they're gonna put it, they're gonna build 30,000 charging locations by 2030. Uh, the first ones shouldn't be here until next year, but like some of them, they're planning to put along highways and then kind of high traffic spots are gonna make sure that there are places where you can go get food and do other things while your car is charging and just kind of revamp the North American charging infrastructure.

• 57:24Nilay Patel?

  Are they doing, are they using the Tesla, the NACS connector or are they doing CCS? They say?

• 57:27Speaker 04

  They will, at least right now, the plan is to have both the CCS, the combined charging system, like the older style that most cars have so far, and also the NACS standard that Tesla and mostly, at least some of these automakers and some several other automakers have said they'll use kind of starting in 2025.

• 57:45Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, well, I guess they have to support their existing cars. I guess they need CCS. It's just a, this is a weird time, like for all of this infrastructure. Like, uh, we were thinking about buying a new charger for our house. And I was like, which standard do I, like, do I buy the one for the car I have now or the car I might get? And it's a very weird time. Real micro mini USB. Well, like, but like a mini USB cable, like, I'll just buy this cable. It was like $3. I'll, I'll do some e-waste to like move on with my life. This is like, I need to spend $500 and it might only like, it's only gonna last this car, you know? Very strange. Uh, okay. Allison, what's yours?

• 58:21Speaker 05

  Uh, mine's a two-parter. So Wes wrote up some T-Mobile news, which is like cool, exciting T-Mobile news. They successfully, they have reached speeds of 3.3 gigabits per second with four carrier aggregation. And this is, this is like in the wild, their, their actual working 5G network. They can do this because they have a standalone network that they bought from Sprint, not from Sprint, they bought Sprint.

• 58:50Nilay Patel?

  That's true.

• 58:51Speaker 05

  Cool. So like, cool. Yay. Good job, T-Mobile. The other news that Sheena wrote up earlier this week is that they are now charging people $5 to pay their bills in the store. So if you don't, if you can't pay online, or if you don't want to, or whatever reason you have, you go into a T-Mobile store to pay them money for your phone service, they're going to charge you extra money to do that. So there's the dark side of T-Mobile news.

• 59:22Nilay Patel?

  Do they explain why they're doing that?

• 59:24Speaker 05

  They call it a payment support charge.

• 59:28Nilay Patel?

  Oh, sure.

• 59:29Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 59:31Speaker 04

  It's innovation.

• 59:32Speaker 05

  It should be called a boomer support charge.

• 59:38Speaker 05

  This is, I say this, my mom, I think, is a T-Mobile customer, and she definitely was like, I'm going to the T-Mobile store today. And I was like, you go more than once a month? What's happening there? I go to the Verizon store like more than the average person, and they're not that busy. Like, I think they can handle a few boomers coming in to pay their bills. I don't know.

• 1:00:01Speaker 04

  All they need to do is add a credit for every single time they get hacked and leak your information. And then no one will get charged for this for like the next two or three years. And it could just ease it in. It would be great.

• 1:00:09Nilay Patel?

  I wish we had any data on how many people are going in these stores to pay their bills. Like, they're obviously trying to deter you from doing it. It must cost them more somehow? I guess. I think. I don't know.

• 1:00:18Speaker 05

  Maybe there's not that many. And they're like, you know what? This is an extra like $500 a month for us. Why not? They're there. But like, what are they doing? They're just load, they're like loading your profile on a tablet that they're holding at the store and like punching in numbers. Like, I don't know. Taking your card?

• 1:00:37Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:37Speaker 05

  Or your cash? Yeah.

• 1:00:39Nilay Patel?

  I will never forget, this is not about T-Mobile. I'll take any chance to dunk on AT&T. I can get at this point. A long, long time ago, I was complaining about something with AT&T. And an AT&T spokesperson called me, it's ages ago, I'm out of my own background policy. This is like, on background, they called me. I was like a little baby reporter, and they dressed me down because they're like, you do not understand how complicated the AT&T billing system is. If we, if you want to make any changes, it requires 60,000 people to work for a year to change the font on this website and like propagate the billing system changes. And I was like, oh, that sounds right. And now I'm like, oh, they were just lying to me.

• 1:01:19Speaker 04

  They probably weren't and I can tell you why because again, reaching into my own past, working at Comcast.

• 1:01:25Nilay Patel?

  Woo!

• 1:01:26Speaker 04

  I don't know if it's still like this, but within 10, 15 years ago, it essentially was still a DOS system that the billing system ran on. And then they came out with another system that was on top of that. But you've got, you're talking about a billing system that was written in like Cobol or something.

• 1:01:40Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:40Speaker 04

  So they cannot change anything.

• 1:01:41Nilay Patel?

  All right.

• 1:01:42Speaker 04

  But I think with T-Mobile, it's, they don't want to have anyone spending time doing this in store because they want them up selling you on phone.

• 1:01:47Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. They're like, have you seen this case?

• 1:01:49Speaker 04

  Also, they're really trying to push people into autopay because like those, uh, direct bank authorizations and those kind of auto payments, it's good for their bottom line. And also it's cheaper than like authorizing a card, doing a check or even handling cash or something like that.

• 1:02:03Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:03Speaker 04

  So they're just really trying to push autopay.

• 1:02:05Speaker 05

  I just think all the T-Mobile employees actually have to be Cobol like programmers and that's why they're charging the extra because it's to offset.

• 1:02:14Speaker 04

  It'd be more secure if they were.

• 1:02:16Nilay Patel?

  It's, that's the Cobol bonus that they're, they're like, there's one wizard and they owe him more money every year and like, we gotta fund this Cobol bonus.

• 1:02:24Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:02:24Nilay Patel?

  Who knows? Allison, while I have you here and we're talking carriers, can I, can I get a quick Gen 5 SIS update?

• 1:02:29Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:02:30Nilay Patel?

  We mentioned Sprint, so we gotta do it. So T-Mobile bought Sprint, we brought our nation's carriers down to three. We were supposed to invent a new carrier out of Dish Network. What's going on? Do we have a fourth carrier yet?

• 1:02:42Speaker 05

  We do not. We still have, uh, Project Gen 5 SIS, which is still kind of in beta. They say that they met their, their June FCC deadline, which was like 70% of the population they need to cover. The one in, I want to say 2020, yeah, I think next year is like the big one, which would be, it's a certain amount of covering, like a certain amount of the places where they hold spectrum licenses, which is trickier, um, and more expensive, I guess. So the short answer is no. Um, something I did write up this week is that you can sign up for Boost Infinite through Amazon Prime now. So that's what we got.

• 1:03:24Nilay Patel?

  That's good. That's really. The big three carriers quaking in their boots because you can sign up for Boost Infinite with Amazon Prime. All right, my lightning round, just a really quick one. Verin reviewed the DJI Mavic Air 3 this week. It's a new drone and he actually sparked a really interesting conversation on YouTube in our YouTube comments about how drones have gotten kind of boring, like the innovation cycle of drones has started to slow down. And we're kind of the same place with phones where we're just talking about pretty incremental camera upgrades every year. And the actual part of like, the camera can fly by itself is no longer interesting, which is just a remarkable place to be. Go check out that YouTube account. It's like really good. Verin is very proud of the review. It's a great review.

• 1:04:08Nilay Patel?

  He flew the drone into a storm, which you're not supposed to do. The shots are beautiful. But it's just a really great example of like the community that we have on our site and on our platforms. Just like talking about a thing altogether. Really great. Like, super into it. And that brings us to fighting.

• 1:04:24Alex Cranz?

  Yes. I got too excited, sorry.

• 1:04:28Nilay Patel?

  So last week we were joking about the Cybertruck and whether or not people had strong opinions about windshield washer fluid. It turns out they do. Okay. Whatever. We're going to set that aside for like a full, I can't even begin to evaluate that situation. Except to say you should not use plain water. I just can't.

• 1:04:46Alex Cranz?

  That's a thing?

• 1:04:48Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, a bunch of people emailed us, like, the only answer is plain water. And it's like,

• 1:04:52Nilay Patel?

  maybe he lives in the desert. I don't know, man.

• 1:04:54Alex Cranz?

  We're gonna do soda. Mountain Dew.

• 1:04:56Nilay Patel?

  Coca-Cola, Coke heavy. Just spray that on your car. It's gonna be great. And we asked all of you to send us what your favorite like versus are. So there's iOS versus Android. We said you can't do that. Too easy. Just pure engagement, right? Like you walk out in the street and you say iOS versus Android and like 100 people form a circle around you and start arguing. Mac versus Windows. It used to be the thing. I think it's declined. We're like, what are the other ones? Uh, so we got this one. Haven't evaluated it. But Rob tells us that VHS versus Beta is still going.

• 1:05:28Alex Cranz?

  Yes.

• 1:05:29Nilay Patel?

  Wow. Which is incredible. I'm super into that. This one is pure Vergecast bait. Richard, I'm dying for your thoughts here. Chase tells us, "I'm in a Discord for the AMC A-list subscribers and the fight between IMAX and Dolby fans is so intense that they make you choose forum flair to show which side you're on." And then he says, "The answer of course is IMAX."

• 1:05:55Speaker 04

  Of course, they're fanboys. Of course, they're stans. I've never actually been to a Dolby Theater. Like, I would have to drive like 30 miles out of my way to go to Dolby Theater. Will I do it? Yes, because I need to get into this battle.

• 1:06:05Nilay Patel?

  Andrew wrote to us, said, apparently Bose versus Sony, noise cancelling, just like forum wars left and right. Like, how can you have an opinion on this?

• 1:06:13Speaker 05

  You, uh, it's Sony.

• 1:06:14Nilay Patel?

  The noise is cancelled.

• 1:06:16Speaker 05

  Sony.

• 1:06:16Nilay Patel?

  Okay, DeWalt versus Milwaukee, power tools. We should do an entire episode on this. Like, people really care about this. I follow a TikToker who's like a Ryobi power fan, and it's just a gadget blog for Ryobi tools on TikTok, like an old-school gadget blog. If you're a longtime brush cast listener, you know that the Tool Guide, G-U-Y-D, is one of my favorite blogs. It's still going. It is just old-school and gadget for power tools. It is incredible. Chainsaw Journal, my favorite trade publication. It's good. It's good. I'm just telling you it's good. There are more. Ableton versus Free Lute Studio, apparently a hardcore battle.

• 1:06:56Speaker 05

  Did we get Canon versus Nikon?

• 1:06:59Nilay Patel?

  Canon versus Nikon, incredible. Cannot believe I forgot about it. Although, I will say Canon, I'm a Nikon person, so I'm gonna say this. It's, it seems like they have figured it out in a way that Nikon is not.

• 1:07:11Speaker 05

  I feel like it's one of those, the Mac versus PC thing, where it's like, everybody's just, you've picked your side by now, right? Like, are peoples switching between Canon and Nikon? Isn't it more mirrorless DSLR? I don't know.

• 1:07:25Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, that's what I mean. It's like, in the mirrorless world, it's like Sony and Canon, right? Like, they're the winners in that, in their, like, pro space. And then there's sort of Nikon, and I'm just like rooting for them.

• 1:07:36Speaker 05

  They are.

• 1:07:36Nilay Patel?

  You can do it, buddy.

• 1:07:39Speaker 05

  They're not rooting for themselves.

• 1:07:42Nilay Patel?

  They don't appear to be rooting for themselves at this point in time. But that's a great one.

• 1:07:46Speaker 05

  I think my favorite is Shimano versus SRAM to bite components.

• 1:07:51Nilay Patel?

  That's Dieter. I don't know if, I don't know if 100% of that's Dieter sent that to us, but that sounds like Dieter sent that to us.

• 1:07:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, Dieter, just a little ghost, ghost email.

• 1:07:59Nilay Patel?

  Richard, what's yours?

• 1:08:00Speaker 04

  Mechanical keyboards versus ones everyone else in the office tolerates. Especially during these hybrid workplaces. Very good. Very heated debate.

• 1:08:08Nilay Patel?

  All right, we got a lot of these where I keep sending them to us.

• 1:08:10Alex Cranz?

  They're so good.

• 1:08:11Nilay Patel?

  These are good. I, you know, as you know, Liam's dream is that we make entire episodes like diving deep into these subcultures. I love getting these emails because it's really fun to hear people's explanations. I will say the best one we got this week was Vergecast versus Waveform. I think that's very obvious. It's Waveform. No, it's the Vergecast.

• 1:08:29Nilay Patel?

  Come on. We love them. That's great. Competition is the, is, you know, the, the, the driving force of, of, of interest on this show. So I love these. These are really great. If you know why VHS versus Beta is still going and you want to pitch crayons on writing 1500 words on it, by all means.

• 1:08:45Alex Cranz?

  I kind of know a little bit. I have a vague idea. They're still like a really, they're, part of it's like archival purposes and stuff. And there's a whole subculture around VHS tapes still because so much stuff got released on VHS that didn't get released on any other platform. And BetaVex actually has higher resolution. It's like higher fidelity. And so ripping and stuff like betas are superior to rip, generally speaking, than VHS. But the ripping technology for VHS is better. This is all Chris Person and I talk about in our DMs. I don't understand 70% of our DMs. It's great.

• 1:09:20Nilay Patel?

  1500 words on the website. VHS versus Beta is still going. I think it's important. Like, this is why the Verge exists. I just, I cannot be clearer about what our purpose here is. We write about the Samsung phones to pay the bills so we can write the VHS versus Beta story. Like, very clear what, what, what our, like, flow is. I demand it. I must know.

• 1:09:44Alex Cranz?

  It's good stuff. Yeah.

• 1:09:46Nilay Patel?

  All right. Send us more. If you have, if you can possibly explain the Rain X thing to me. It's just very good. Like, this is what the internet's for. Lots more of these. Send them, send them to us. Again, Liam's dream is to do an entire episode on these. They're really fun to hear. It's really fun to hear your opinions on, on just vergecastoftheverge.com. We love it. That's it. That's the show. I gotta get out of this hotel room. I've been in it for like 95 hours straight. There's lots of stuff on the site you should read. We wrote a look back at the iRiver MP3 player, which was like a true gadget nerd MP3 player. Great blast from the past. The Chromecast turned 10 years old. Sean Hollister wrote about the original Chromecast, referencing the review of the Chromecast that I wrote that I had completely forgotten about. He's like, as our own Eli Fosse, I was like, did I say that? Incredible.

• 1:10:29Nilay Patel?

  We have a great piece on the indie game scene in Japan, which is really cool. And then our Google coverage, we're really covering Google search a lot this year, really thinking about what it means for the internet to be architected around Google search and how that might change as AI rolls out. Our very own David Pierce wrote a story about Nilay. It's a profile of Nilay, the paid search engine that was meant to compete with Google. It's a bunch of ex Googlers and it couldn't do it. And that's a story from beginning to end, a startup to failure of a startup, really unpacking why Google is so dominant and all the ways that it uses its dominance. Really great story, really fun profile to read. And just like, like I said, a marker of something that's changing. So just go read that story, look at our Google coverage. If you have ideas on how we should cover Google and Google search in particular through this meta change, love to hear those too.

• 1:11:14Nilay Patel?

  Okay. Allison, thank you for putting up with us. Richard, thank you for filling in for David. That's it. That's Vergecast. Back and roll.

• 1:11:25Speaker 06

  And that's a wrap for Vergecast this week. We'd love to hear from you. Shoot us an email at [email protected]. The Vergecast is a production of The Verge and the Vox Media Podcast Network. The show is produced by me, Liam James, and our senior audio director, Andrew Marino. Our editorial director is Brooke Minter. That's it. We'll see you next week.

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