John Turturro

There's a reason John Turturro has been a muse for the likes of Spike Lee and Joel & Ethan Coen. He's one of the best to do it. Now he's chatting with Josh about his entire career including his Emmy nominated work in SEVERANCE. Recorded at the 92nd Street Y. Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Visible puts the ultimate wireless hack in the palm of your hand. With unlimited 5G wireless data and hotspot, designed to keep you connected. Powered by Verizon's 5G network. And, no contract holding you back. Plans start at $25 a month. Or get the premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code HACK. Make the switch at visible.com. Terms apply. See visible.com for details.

• 0:31Speaker 01

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• 0:59Josh Horowitz?

  What's the worst note a director has ever given you?

• 1:03Speaker 03

  Tense up. You know, "Do it like you did it in another movie." Then I feel like telling him, "You know what? You know, why don't you get another job?" You know what I mean? It's just like, you can't ask me to do something I did before. That's like cheating on somebody. You know what I mean? It's like, no. Come up with your own idea.

• 1:20Speaker 04

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, Sad, Confused begins now.

• 1:27Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, today on Happy, Sad, Confused, one of the greats, a first time guest on the podcast, the one and only John Turturro. He can do it all: comedy, drama, theater, film, TV, talking severance, and his entire career with me. Hey guys, thanks as always for checking out my little old podcast, Happy, Sad, Confused. Took a while to get him. I don't know how it took this long, but here he is. Today's main event is John Turturro.

• 1:56Josh Horowitz?

  Great opportunity to chat with him at 92nd Street Y, a live event. Keying off of his recent Emmy nominated performance in Severance, season two. He was nominated for the first season. This is a great chat. More on that in a second. First up, as I always want to remind you guys, if you haven't yet checked out our Patreon, please do, because that's where we put all of this stuff early before anybody else can see it. Access to live events, merch, autograph posters, all sorts of cool stuff, depending on the the tier level you want to try out. It helps us make more stuff here. So go to patreon.com/happy say confused. Give it a shot. Why not? We've been making podcasts for over 11 years now. So,

• 2:40Josh Horowitz?

  you know, every little bit helps make more of the fun stuff over here. Okay, speaking of fun stuff, this is such a fun event we had. Oh, my God, this was a New York event at the 92nd Street Y. As I said, first time he's ever done the podcast. John Turturro, I mean, this guy has done everything. I say it in his introduction, but I'll just say it here quickly. You know, when I started to love film in the 80s and the 90s, I mean, this guy was everywhere. He's still everywhere, but really then was when he was discovered and championed and had this amazing symbiotic relationship with Spike Lee. You know, starting to do the right thing and just being in all these films.

• 3:22Josh Horowitz?

  The Coen Brothers, you know, Barton Fink, Millers Crossing, The Big Lebowski, Oh Brother, Where Art Thou? He was their muse. And since then, you know, continues to kill it, whether it's in TV, stuff like The Night Of. You know, his, his character roles like in things like Adam Sandler films or Michael Bay films and then like, you know, out of nowhere can, you know, again, shock us with an amazing leading man performance, a romantic lead. He really is one of those guys that can do it all. He's also also happens to be an authentic born and bred New Yorker, so much like character and soul to him. You'll hear it in this conversation.

• 4:02Josh Horowitz?

  Really great stuff about his upbringing, his parents, who sounds like were amazing characters. I feel like it just gets, this one gets better and better as it builds. You know, because a lot of these folks that you hear on the podcast or see on the podcast, as you guys know, I've done a lot over the years. John, I haven't really. So, you know, you gotta have to build that trust. And I think we did. We got there. And by the end, I was just loving every anecdote and story. So there's, there's something in here for everybody, all aspects of his career. It's a really cool one. As I said, he was kind of also spreading the good word of Severance, well deserved Emmy nomination for season two. He's in contention.

• 4:43Josh Horowitz?

  This guy should have a ton of awards by now for my money. So whatever, you know, it is what it is. So yes, without any further ado, let me take you to a live event at the 92nd Street Y. Here is me and the one and only John Turturro. How's it going, everybody? Welcome to the 92nd Street Y. I'm Josh Horowitz. I host the podcast called Happy, Say Confused, and you are inside of it right now. Thank you guys so much for coming tonight. Thank you.

• 5:10Josh Horowitz?

  I'm so excited. I have a first time guest on the pod. I don't know how I've been doing this podcast for over 10 years and never had this actor who is so formative for me and so many other cinephiles. John Turturro is about to walk on stage and this man has been doing the work continually at the highest possible level for so many years.

• 5:30Josh Horowitz?

  When I was coming of age as a cinephile, particularly in the 90s, when I was first kind of becoming obsessed with film, he was first, you know, making his bones, becoming the go to guy for the Coen Brothers and Spike Lee. And in film after film, in project after project, he always delivers. He's a chameleon. He is now being recognized again with another Emmy nomination for this fantastic performance and the most obsessed about show on television, Severance. We're going to talk about all of it tonight. Are you guys ready?

• 6:01Josh Horowitz?

  All right. By the way, we also like our New Yorkers around here. So give it up. We're a New Yorker, a great actor, a great guy. Mr. John Turturro, everybody. Here he is.

• 6:26Speaker 03

  This is a new space, right?

• 6:27Josh Horowitz?

  This is a newer space. Welcome. Uh, thanks for doing this, John.

• 6:31Speaker 03

  Well, my pleasure.

• 6:32Josh Horowitz?

  Um, I was watching a bunch of interviews. I saw Riz Ahmed, your co-star in The Night Of, say, not only does he do a very good John Turturro impression...

• 6:40Speaker 03

  Oh, really?

• 6:41Josh Horowitz?

  But he also, he also says that John Turturro likes a lot of cooking metaphors when he talks about acting.

• 6:47Speaker 03

  Cooking metaphors?

• 6:48Josh Horowitz?

  Should I expect a lot tonight? Is that something...

• 6:50Speaker 03

  It's possible.

• 6:51Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. Drinking game every time a cooking metaphor comes up tonight.

• 6:56Speaker 03

  Riz is a, yeah. He's a formidable guy, yes.

• 7:01Josh Horowitz?

  He's a hell of an actor, isn't he? Uh, as are you, sir. Congratulations on Severance, all the, uh, the acclaim. Um, talk to me a little bit about what it's like to be John Turturro walking the streets of New York, though, because I would imagine you get, you know, you could have one person wanting to talk about fan theories from Severance and another person quoting The Big Lebowski. Like, what is a day in the life in New York for John Turturro?

• 7:25Speaker 03

  I think most people are pretty polite, actually. They, they don't really, you know, sometimes people greet you warmly. They don't always ask for a selfie and things like that. But it depends what you've been doing recently. Yeah, obviously Severance has a lot of people who are obsessed with the show and Irving and, you know, and Burt and stuff. And, uh, so it's different times, things happen. Uh, when I did The Night Of, there was a lot of people, you know, uh, would be talking to me about my eczema and things like that, and, uh, which I don't have, fortunately. Uh, the, you know, the

• 8:08Speaker 03

  Coen Brothers, that's a whole other thing. And, I mean, I... I think that's the only, the Lebowski things is that there are people who are really, you know, it's like a religion. And so, there's lots of people who have tattoos of me on their bodies as the Jesus.

• 8:29Josh Horowitz?

  Should I show mine right now, or should I wait till the end?

• 8:32Speaker 03

  And sometimes in very intimate places. And I had to say, like, that really is kind of horrifying to me, you know? The thing like, you know, I mean, like, the inside of your thigh.

• 8:43Josh Horowitz?

  That's a commitment.

• 8:44Speaker 03

  You know, and, but the Jesus, you know, he's, he's a religious figure, so.

• 8:49Josh Horowitz?

  He lives on, he's gonna live all.

• 8:51Speaker 03

  He lives on, you know, who the hell would ever imagine that that would have occurred? But I did, when that movie came out, it was not very successful here. But I started getting very strange mail from men and women and prisoners and things. And they, it was very risque a lot of the mail that I got, the things that they wanted me to do to them. And I would be like, what the hell is, why am I getting this, you know, mail? And, but, you know, thank goodness it didn't turn into anything worse than that, so.

• 9:29Josh Horowitz?

  Touched a nerve. They say if you can infect one person, even a prisoner, it's a good thing.

• 9:33Speaker 03

  Well, sometimes you can have small, like a small but very dedicated audience. But this, this audience has become a different thing. But Severance has, I think, because the show poses questions and doesn't give answers, that people fill in the space and they have their own theory about what's going on. And the other day, Ben and I did something for an NPR show and someone wrote in and they were in the intelligence field. And they said, this is exactly what my life is like because I have to do this work in a place that I can't, I can't share it with the other departments.

• 10:17Speaker 03

  And when I go home, I have to kind of like delete everything. I cannot talk about my work at all. She said, it is not science fiction. This is exactly how it is. And both Ben and I were sort of like, wow, you know. So.

• 10:32Josh Horowitz?

  The metaphor becomes real for some people.

• 10:34Speaker 03

  It's real. It's real for certain. I know people, I have a friend whose father was like in the CIA.

• 10:40Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 10:40Speaker 03

  And, you know, you can't share anything with your family.

• 10:44Josh Horowitz?

  Well, I would think also, I mean, to apply it to an actor, I mean, I don't know if you're the type of actor that kind of like deletes the hard drive when you go home.

• 10:51Speaker 03

  Well, you have to. You have to sort of decompress or whatever. And as you get older, you realize that's not a good thing, you know, to come home and it's still there. If you've done your work correctly, you've, you know, expunged it. It's, it's come out, it's, it's in the work and then you don't want to, you know, bring it home.

• 11:11Josh Horowitz?

  So, talking about this show in particular, and then we'll circle back to your remarkable career. I mean, it is, this is such a singular phenomenon. This is a very specific show, a very odd show, and yet it has resonated, as you said, with such a vast audience. I mean, do you have a good read on what's going to click with the audience or not at this point in your career? Are you surprised by the success of this?

• 11:33Speaker 03

  I knew, my agent Christina Basdegas read it and she thought it was really an interesting script and I knew it was original and that's what drew Ben to it. And by then, they had been working on it for years. So I read the first, like, three episodes and I thought it was unlike anything I had ever read before. It had certain kinds of ramifications of all the films that I had seen, you know, before. But it was its own thing and I think, you know, we've had the time and the resources and Ben really has pushed the whole show. He's really been fastidious in his approach and also exploratory.

• 12:15Speaker 03

  We've done scenes, you know, many different ways and the first year we were there. The set was so, it's so oppressive. I mean, people have come on to visit the set and you see after two hours, they're like, gotta go. You know what I mean? And it's like, gotta get out of here, you know what I mean? And we were doing that during COVID. And so the crew had not only masks, they had shields. And we would rehearse sometimes with masks and then, you know. But we, there were lots of people, we never saw their faces for like six months. And it was really strange at first with the COVID situation and that set too.

• 12:55Speaker 03

  So I, I, I didn't know i- if it would, but I thought what was going on was really interesting.

• 13:03Josh Horowitz?

  It, it also, I mean, look, it's a bit of a leap of faith when you jump into something like this.

• 13:08Speaker 03

  It always is.

• 13:09Josh Horowitz?

  Well, it always is, but.

• 13:09Speaker 03

  It always is.

• 13:10Josh Horowitz?

  But a film, you at least see the beginning, middle and end. You know the entire arc of your character. Here it's open ended when you start.

• 13:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, you know, Dan Erickson was kind enough, even before I said yes, to write sort of a backstory to the character, why he was severed. And that allowed me to do a lot of research so I could have, you know, fill in, you know, who this person was and when he would go to work, what would be left of that? You know, and what would be left of that? Because everyone switches somewhat, but maybe not to that extreme. And beyond that, everything is pretty grounded, but you're in a reduced state, but you still have your, I think, physicality, you still have your vocabulary. You're not completely in second or third grade. You know what I mean?

• 14:00Speaker 03

  But, but you are reduced a little bit to maybe your essence. And I, I, I had been a substitute school teacher for one year before I went to Yale Drama School. And I, I did juniors at Rice High School and then I did a fifth and sixth graders. And it reminded me of being with fifth and sixth graders, especially that was girls and boys. And there was something about the show that reminded me of that.

• 14:31Speaker 03

  That dynamic.

• 14:32Josh Horowitz?

  Do you, I'm curious, like, what do your scripts look like? I mean, Chris Walken, your buddy, famously removes all punctuation. Do you, do you?

• 14:39Speaker 03

  I have a lot of notes in my script. I, I highlight everything, I highlight all my cues. I underline all my operative words. I, I, I have a, a journal where I kind of keep all, like, the, the history of the character. Sometimes I have music. I, I warm up. I warmed up a lot for Irving, uh, my voice. And I wanted to be very, really disciplined and regimented because that was part of his background. And, uh, I had really strong ideas. I wanted the mustache. And Ben was like, well, I'm not sure about it. And, uh, but the, uh, the makeup lady, you know, uh, supported me. Uh, uh, uh. No, I, I, I do physical things because all of us have a center in life.

• 15:24Speaker 03

  You know, whether it's your, your forehead, or your chest, or your, or your pelvis. You know, uh, and it's because of the psychological baggage that you've carried over so many years. And I think when you find the character's center or whatever, it can help you, uh, look at the world. And, uh, I've always, I've worked that way onstage. And one of my early teachers, uh, was really, uh, you know, encouraged me to use my body. I like using my body.

• 15:56Josh Horowitz?

  And it's still a starting point, it sounds like, for any character.

• 15:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, because when you do something physically, it does trigger other things.

• 16:02Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 16:03Speaker 03

  You know, and even, even if you work on something vocally. I mean, and when I first did it, uh, Ben was really, uh, like nervous. And I said, well, let me listen to it and then I can always adjust the sound a little bit. But I wasn't about to, uh, to, to toss it. I was like, this is the choice I make. And Stella Adler says, like, there's a famous quote that she said, you know, "Your talent lies in your choice." And sometimes you can make a choice and it can be disastrous, you know, because it's not a choice that allows variety.

• 16:39Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 16:39Speaker 03

  So as long as you make a choice and you can do a lot of things with it.

• 16:43Josh Horowitz?

  Well, that's all an actor has, is their choices, I would expect, right?

• 16:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, but...

• 16:46Josh Horowitz?

  Because like, if you give nothing, you're making a decision.

• 16:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, some people don't make, like, maybe, you know, there are some actors who are more chameleon-like. There are some actors who you believe in any role, but they don't maybe transform as much.

• 17:02Josh Horowitz?

  Right, a naturalism, like a Gene Hackman type, who's just like, is that person?

• 17:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, but Gene Hackman is one of the great actors moment to moment, you know? So you have to be moment to moment within that, but, you know, you know, I basically, I like doing things where you can disappear a little bit and also reappear.

• 17:24Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 17:24Speaker 03

  You know, and that gives me, I don't want to just look at myself. You know, I'm like bored with that, you know?

• 17:32Josh Horowitz?

  You've lived with that guy for a while.

• 17:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, it's enough of that guy, you know what I mean, so, yeah.

• 17:36Josh Horowitz?

  This audience in New York saw before we started this great clip from, I think it was episode four.

• 17:40Speaker 03

  Right.

• 17:41Josh Horowitz?

  I would imagine that's a highlight of the season for you. You get, not only do you escape the fluorescent lights of women...

• 17:46Speaker 03

  Yes, I loved being outside and it was a very, it was a long shoot. We were, you know, upstate and, you know, it was, we were in the mountains and it was invigorating, you know, to do that. And we were on the lake and everything, and Lake Minnewaska, and it was after kind of a vulnerable time in my life and it was nice to be in nature.

• 18:21Speaker 00

  Visible puts the ultimate wireless hack in the palm of your hand. With unlimited 5G wireless data and hotspot designed to keep you connected. Powered by Verizon's 5G network. And no contract holding you back. Plans start at $25 a month. Or get the premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code HACK. Make the switch at visible.com. Terms apply. See visible.com for details.

• 18:52Speaker 05

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• 19:25Josh Horowitz?

  If you'll indulge me, we're gonna go down memory lane because there's a lot. We could spend five hours. We only have about 45 minutes or an hour. So we're gonna hit some major moments in your life. But first of all, just growing up. Grew up, born in Brooklyn, kind of raised in Queens. Do I have that right?

• 19:40Speaker 03

  I was raised in Hollis, yeah, and then Rosedale. Yeah.

• 19:43Josh Horowitz?

  There you go. So...

• 19:45Speaker 03

  I grew up like the exact opposite of Spike. Because we're born three weeks apart. And he grew up in an Italian neighborhood. I grew up in a black neighborhood.

• 19:53Josh Horowitz?

  Gotcha.

• 19:54Speaker 03

  So when we met, we were like, "Where you been?"

• 19:57Josh Horowitz?

  Where you been all my life?

• 19:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, so yeah.

• 20:00Josh Horowitz?

  So, you know, looking back at your childhood, I mean, was your family surprised at your trajectory? I mean, were you a performer, a big personality? Was there that in the family or what?

• 20:11Speaker 03

  Well, I had a pretty expressive family. My uncle's, my mother's brothers are musicians. My mother was a singer. My father's family, they're really full of...

• 20:23Speaker 03

  You know, you know, big personalities. I mean, and my father had the capacity, you know, like, sort of like Lee J. Cobb, George C. Scott type of like actor. He, he was a builder, but he was, he had a very big voice and a big.

• 20:40Josh Horowitz?

  A bruiser.

• 20:41Speaker 03

  And he had a vulnerability to him. And my, both my parents loved movies. So, you know, I used to watch, you know, movies with them, you know, mostly movies from the 30s, 40s and 50s.

• 20:54Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 20:54Speaker 03

  You know, and then I would go to the movies sometimes in the, in the 60s. Uh, but we used to watch Million Dollar Movie, which was like the first VCR, because it was the same movie five nights a week. Uh, The Honeymooners, which has influenced so many people in this business. I, I thought was a very like, uh, sort of was like my mother and father. We used to call the show Mommy and Daddy. Yeah, actually. And it's a very truthful show and, uh, to, I liked, I loved I Love Lucy too, but The Honeymooners was a, was a big, you know, influence to so, so many people. And, uh, so I never, I never thought, you know, I never knew anyone in the movies.

• 21:37Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 21:37Speaker 03

  It wasn't until I started going to see theater that I thought, wow, you know, the, the, I can almost touch that, you know? And, uh, uh, that really sort of opened me up in a different way.

• 21:49Josh Horowitz?

  So when, when did, when did your parents kind of exhale and say, he's gonna be okay? Do you remember that?

• 21:55Speaker 03

  Well, my father always wanted me to be, you know, like a architect or doctor, lawyer, you know? I mean, that's, you know, he came from Italy and, you know, that's what he wanted me to be. But, uh, you know, once they saw me do plays when I was in, in undergrad school in SUNY New Paltz and, uh, you know, my father would always, he'd be tired because he got up so early, so he'd always yawn, you know, in the middle of the play.

• 22:20Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, great.

• 22:20Speaker 03

  You hear this guy, oh! You know, I, I knew it was my father, you know what I mean? And, uh, and he'd talk sometimes in the audience, uh, but, uh... They were pretty, you know, honest when I did something, you know, that they thought was good, you know, and they responded to it. But, you know, wasn't, then I went to Yale Drama School, so they saw me do many, many, many plays. I had been acting such, you know, a long time and before I actually, you know, made a movie or two or whatever. When I did To Live and Die in L.A., for example, that's one of the first roles I actually had, like a real part. I took my father to the screening and in the movie, I took all my friends, it was all

• 23:04Speaker 03

  guys, because it was a guy kind of movie. And my father was smoking, you know, and watching, and I was running through the airport and really fast, and Bill Peterson was running after me, and my father just like yelled right out loud, because he was like, you know, he's a builder, you know, so he was like, "Go, John!" He was like, you know what I mean, he was like, "There you can catch John." He was like, you know, "He's got long legs." He was like that, you know what I mean? And the whole audience was like dying laughing, and I was mortified. I was like, but of course, he had the perfect response for that movie, because that was the kind of movie that you should talk to.

• 23:38Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, I remember it, yeah.

• 23:40Speaker 03

  And then after the movie, Andy Warhol came up to me and he said, "Oh, I really liked the movie." And my father's looking at him, he goes, "Who's this guy?" Like this, he goes, "He looks just like an albino," tells me like this, and I'm like, "This is Andy Warhol, Dad," you know what I mean? It's like, and Andy Warhol thought it was the funniest thing. And so now, in retrospect, I realize, man, he was really, he was like unconscious in his way, but he really enjoyed, he didn't get to live that long to see me do a lot of things, but he was excited.

• 24:13Josh Horowitz?

  He got to meet Andy Warhol.

• 24:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:15Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, when I think back to the first time I saw you, and you mentioned Friedkin, I mean, you were working with some really cool directors early on, and then...

• 24:23Speaker 03

  I mean, oh, yeah.

• 24:24Josh Horowitz?

  And I think the first one, I think the first time I remember seeing you on screen, and I want to show a clip, and maybe this isn't usually...

• 24:29Speaker 03

  Five Corners?

• 24:30Josh Horowitz?

  Not Five Corners, which is a great performance. This is even before that. This is The Color of Money.

• 24:33Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 24:34Josh Horowitz?

  And I love this movie. This is like, I know this is not the first one they talk about for Scorsese, but it's one of my favorite Scorsese movies, and you've got a cool role in this one. Let's take a look at this, I think it's around like eighty-six. Turturro, Paul Newman, Tom Cruise, The Color of Money. Let's take a look.

• 25:02Speaker 06

  Play him again Julian, you really got him on the ropes. One more, right chief? Eddie, I gotta split. You're going. I gotta see somebody. Oh come on, one more game here. I'm bust. So let's just play play. What? Just play for play, man, no money.

• 25:22Speaker 06

  Play play? Show me what you got here.

• 25:25Speaker 00

  Vincent.

• 25:27Speaker 06

  Hey Julian, I just want your best game. I think maybe the money's what's throwing you off here today.

• 25:39Speaker 06

  Okay, how about I win no money, you win, I'll throw you twenty?

• 25:47Speaker 06

  No?

• 25:54Speaker 06

  What's the matter with this guy?

• 25:57Josh Horowitz?

  Alright Carmen, who's next?

• 26:04Speaker 03

  He is a handsome man, Paul Newman.

• 26:10Speaker 03

  I mean, come on.

• 26:15Speaker 03

  No matter how you look at Paul Newman, up his nose and back, for a hundred years. So handsome.

• 26:24Speaker 03

  I mean, you're just like, you know. We did, we rehearsed the whole movie with a video camera. Because Paul Newman had done that with Sidney Lumet for the verve.

• 26:35Josh Horowitz?

  Right. I wanna hear it from the microphone, so everybody can...

• 26:39Speaker 03

  So we rehearsed the entire movie, and I played a lot of the other roles too.

• 26:48Speaker 03

  And Scorsese was nervous around Paul Newman also.

• 26:51Josh Horowitz?

  Really?

• 26:51Speaker 03

  Oh yeah, he was really nervous. And matter of fact, the first day, you know, he would tell these jokes. And sometimes they would be very long jokes. And Marty would look at me like he didn't get the punchline, and either did I, so... You know, he'd be like, "It's funny, right? It's funny." You know, he was like, "Funny, right?" And then, so, the first day of shooting, we, I think it was that scene, I had to put my coat on or something. I was a little, I was nervous, I was working with Paul Newman. I mean, Tom Cruise was still, you know, pretty young at the time, so... And Marty said, that was, he was trying to shoot, like only do two, three takes. And he goes, "That was very good, very good, excellent." Because, and he, he was very nervous, that's how we talked, you know.

• 27:32Speaker 03

  And he said, but he kept tucking his shirt, you know, it was like, because he was nervous, you know, and he said, "The next take, just do me a favor," he goes, "just put your jacket on." I just died laughing, I said, "I'll just, I'm a little nervous, I'll just put my jacket on." I said, "Maybe it was a little, too much movement or something." And I said, "Listen, Marty, I'm, I'm a little nervous, because every time I turn, I look at Paul Newman, and I see like, somebody up there, likes me, The Hustler, you know, HUD." And Marty goes, "You think you're nervous?" He goes, "I got it directed." Says, "You don't understand," because I see every movie, goes right across my head. Goes like that, "The Silver Chalice," he goes like that, I was dying laughing. And so then, we got, you know, and Paul Newman was great, he was, I became like friendly with him, you know, afterwards.

• 28:15Speaker 03

  I did some charity things with him, and he was such a lovely guy. And he was telling me one day, he said, "It took him like 25 years to learn to really relax on screen." He said, "I was always working too hard," and he just was really a, an interesting guy. And, and, you know, it was like, it was, it was a thrill, you know, toward, then I worked with Robert Redford after that, and you know, but, it was, you know, it was a big experience for me, and he was very, very kind, very kind.

• 28:48Josh Horowitz?

  Amazing, uh, yeah, he won the Oscar for that one, as I recall, great, great film. Um, so you mentioned Spike before, and that obviously, so he, he saw Five Corners.

• 28:57Speaker 03

  He saw Five Corners, that's the reason he, he wanted me in, uh, because I, I threw my mother out the window, so.

• 29:04Josh Horowitz?

  That gets you, that gets you the racist to do the right thing.

• 29:06Speaker 03

  I mean, John Patrick Shanley wrote it, I just did it, you know what I mean, so.

• 29:10Josh Horowitz?

  It wasn't a new job.

• 29:10Speaker 03

  It was, I didn't make it up, you know what I mean, so, uh, but, uh.

• 29:15Josh Horowitz?

  And what did you guys, I mean, you talk about kind of being, having kind of reverse, you know, upbringing, but like, what did you connect with as just contemporaries?

• 29:22Speaker 03

  We just, we had so many references, you know, was, whether it was the Knicks, you know, growing up in New York. And it took a while, you know, to get, uh, when he asked me, do you want to be in the movie? And I said, yeah. And he said, well, who do you want to play? And I said, I really, I think I would like to play the racist character because I think that's what the big part of the movie is about, you know? And so, uh, and I kind of understood that. And then I worked in a pizzeria for a while, you know, before I did it. And, and then we really got him and I was very, uh, got close with Ernest Dickerson, who was the cinematographer, and Win Thomas. I mean, a lot of those pictures in the Wall of Fame, you know, those are my pictures, a lot of those pictures.

• 30:05Speaker 03

  Yeah. And so Ruth Carter, and so those are people who've been friends of mine, you know, since eighty-eight. And, uh, uh, you know, it was a great cast, Giancarlo, and it was just...

• 30:17Josh Horowitz?

  Yellow, yeah.

• 30:17Speaker 03

  Yeah. But, uh...

• 30:19Josh Horowitz?

  What do you remember about that spot?

• 30:20Speaker 03

  But then I remember that in rehearsal, we, we, we started adding things. And then I, the more relaxed I got, I started sharing things that maybe he didn't know or he hadn't heard. And then I would tell him and he would say, oh, we gotta put that in there. You know, things that were really incendiary at the time. So, uh, the, the one thing about it was we would go to Dailies at LIU, Long Island University, and the whole crew and all the people from, uh, Craft Service, they would be invited. So we would watch the same scene four times. So of course, people are watching you do something and they're seeing it four times or maybe five times. And so then some people who had never, hadn't the experience of, you know, working on a movie,

• 31:05Speaker 03

  started to think, well, that's who you are. You know what I mean? And there was a woman in Craft Service, and it was very, very hot. It was, it was a real bad heat wave that summer. And she just, she would pass me by when she had water. And I said, can I, you know? And finally, one day she turned and she said to me, she said, I, I hate you. She said, you know, she said, I, I hate you so much, you know? And I was like, so I told Spike, I said, Spike, I said, you know, she thinks I'm Pino, you know? And he was dying laughing, you know? He thought it was the funniest thing. And I was, I was a little worried at first. I thought, well, suppose people, I take the subway, you know, people, and, uh, and it was, and it predicted that...

• 31:48Speaker 07

  Joe Klein being one of the people that there was gonna be riots and all this stuff. But I've never, ever had an adverse relationship from that movie.

• 31:59Josh Horowitz?

  Well, it stands the test of time. It's a classic. Yeah, I mean.

• 32:02Speaker 07

  But it was, it was exciting movie to make and upsetting at the end. But we, we had a great group of people.

• 32:10Josh Horowitz?

  All right. I have a, I have a clip. You and Spike, obviously also performer in the film.

• 32:14Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 32:15Josh Horowitz?

  Uh, yes, he says some things that are pretty horrendous here, but it's just acting, guys. Don't worry. Don't just hurt on Spike Lee and do the right thing. Check it out.

• 32:23Speaker 07

  You know, I've been listening and reading. You been reading now? I read. I've been reading about your leaders. Reverend Al, Mr. Do, Sharpton, Jesse. Keep hope alive. That's fucked up. Keep hope alive. Hey, that's fucked. Don't talk about Jesse. And even the other guy, what's his name? Farah Man, Farrakhan. Minister Farrakhan. Right, sorry. Minister Farrakhan. Anyway, Minister Farrakhan always talks about the so-called day. When, when the black man will rise. We were one day, what does he say? We were one day rule the earth as we did in, in our glorious past. That's right. What past you talking about? What, what did I miss? We started civilization.

• 33:07Speaker 07

  Man, keep dreaming, man. Then you woke up. Pino, fuck you, fuck your fucking pizza, and fuck Frank Sinatra. Yeah? Well, fuck you too, and fuck Michael Jackson.

• 33:29Speaker 03

  I guess we haven't come that far from that film.

• 33:33Josh Horowitz?

  For, for my money, um, the Coen brothers are maybe my favorite filmmakers of all time. And you've appeared in a number of their films. Uh, Miller's Crossing, they write, I believe, Barton Fink with you in mind. That's a-

• 33:44Speaker 07

  Yeah, I wrote Miller's Crossing too, yeah.

• 33:45Josh Horowitz?

  Amazing. Um, Barton Fink, I feel like every frustrated writer's favorite film of all time. It's one of those. Um, I mean, what, you obviously vibed with them. You knew, I think, Francis from Yale, Francis McDormand. Um, do they direct you much in the course of your films? Like, what, what's the vibe on set from, from Joel and Ethan?

• 34:04Speaker 03

  They've, they've seen me do a lot of, uh, different, uh, performances on stage. And sometimes they write things for me that they've, they haven't seen me do. So, uh, and we, we share a-

• 34:17Speaker 03

  Like a kind of dark sense of humor, you know. And, you know, I think the more human you can make their characters, the more like horribly, you know, funny it is and can be moving too. But we just, we just really get along, you know. And I've directed one of Ethan's plays on Broadway. And so it's just, you know, like kind of a, you develop a shorthand and a language and you're not, I'm not afraid or ashamed to try things with them and to make myself look, you know, not, you know, good, you know, or heroic or whatever.

• 35:02Speaker 03

  I've really kind of just been really uninhibited for them. I mean, in a deep way, where other directors say, hey, could you do something like that? And it's like, no, you have to kind of earn that.

• 35:16Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, no, I've talked, I mean, Sam Jackson's been here, remember? He always talks about like, you know, if you don't trust them, they're gonna screw you in the edit. And if you feel like that's gonna happen, that.

• 35:25Speaker 03

  You're always gonna be protecting yourself. But, you know, these are characters that you're, you're just gonna go, you're gonna go out there. I mean, I, I think I've learned from doing things on stage that I, I like to do that. I like to take a risk.

• 35:39Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 35:39Speaker 03

  See where it lands.

• 35:42Josh Horowitz?

  And you said, look, we talked about Lebowski, that Jesus, you thought, you were out there, to say the least, in that one.

• 35:49Speaker 03

  Well, I had done a play that they had seen. And it was, that was sort of an inspiration for them. And I had done a play with, I did these two plays in this trilogy by Ronaldo Pravod called La Puglia Vida. And I played, it was a mother and son, and then a guy like the Jesus, his name was Chino, and this little boy. It was about their relationship.

• 36:13Josh Horowitz?

  Got it. But is it fair to say that after you did that performance and you saw it back, you said, "I went too far"?

• 36:19Speaker 03

  No, I was shocked.

• 36:23Speaker 03

  Because I was trying all these different things for them, because they kept telling me about the role, but then I saw it, it was so small. They said, "Well, we know you're gonna come up with a lot of things for it", and I did. And I didn't think they were gonna put all of that in. And then the way they edited it, you know, it was just, you know, whatever. And the movie is, it's a really, really funny movie.

• 36:44Josh Horowitz?

  It holds up, and most comedies do not.

• 36:47Speaker 03

  That's like a philosophical comedy.

• 36:51Josh Horowitz?

  And like the fusion of Jeff as a man, as a human being, and Jeff as a performer.

• 36:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, that is just, that's, you know, you talk about performances and all these people who've won awards, you know? I mean, Jeff didn't win like, you know, the teeniest award for the dude, you know? But the dude is in our psyche, and it's a great, great performance, yeah. I mean, there's a lot of other great, but Jeff, I'm a big fan of Jeff.

• 37:20Josh Horowitz?

  I wouldn't imagine, you know this, but you know, you played a relative of mine once, John, can you guess?

• 37:25Speaker 03

  Herb Stempel?

• 37:26Josh Horowitz?

  Herb Stempel.

• 37:27Speaker 03

  Oh, I didn't know that.

• 37:30Josh Horowitz?

  Herb Stempel, a cousin removed, basically, from me, of course.

• 37:36Speaker 03

  Well, yeah.

• 37:36Josh Horowitz?

  One of the leads in Quiz Show. I love Quiz Show so much, directed by Robert Redford.

• 37:43Speaker 03

  Another good-looking guy, I mean. I mean, yes. And then he was a good director, and my god, he used to, you know, smelled good, oh my god.

• 37:52Josh Horowitz?

  You can smell it off the screen.

• 37:53Speaker 03

  I would do anything for him.

• 37:55Josh Horowitz?

  But that is such a beautifully made film, meticulous in every way.

• 37:59Speaker 03

  I loved doing it.

• 38:01Josh Horowitz?

  Did you, what did you make of Herb as a character?

• 38:04Speaker 03

  Well, I was the only person cast for a long time. When I saw the kinescopes, I was shocked. I was like, "Oh my god, I've never seen anybody like Herb in a way." And then, I think originally he wanted Paul Newman. And Tim Robbins to play the Van Doren's. And Tim was doing Shawshank Redemption. And Paul Newman was on the fence about it, you know. And then, then we were waiting and waiting. And Redford told me, you know, it would be great if you could gain some weight. And I started gaining weight. And then he said, well, you know, you could play the other part. You could play the.

• 38:42Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, Rob Maro's.

• 38:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I was like, no, no, I'm going in. I'm all in for Herb, you know.

• 38:48Speaker 03

  And I gained a lot of weight and had my teeth and my hair thinned and discolored. And, but I, I, I loved working with, with Robert. And he was very, very helpful. And that was a hard, I mean, he has very high voice, Herb. You know, I can't, because I didn't warm it up now. But, you know, he, he really, he spoke like this. And, you know, Josh was a distant relative of mine. But, I mean, I would warm up and the whole crew would imitate me like, me. And I would do these things. Because I had, it was all in his, in the nose. And, you know, and I also, I would talk to him, you know, at length.

• 39:32Speaker 03

  And, you know, as I was getting heavier and heavier. And, and he was a very innocent guy. And if you watch the Kinescopes, I mean, they made it more of the tragedy of the wasp. But Van Doren took to it like a fish in water. And Herb was always awkward about it. So they, they definitely, and there were different versions of it where Herb was a little bit more aware and of that. But I, I loved, it was a great group. Chris McDonald, too, was great, you know. And, and, and of course, you know, Rafe was, that was a big find when Redford showed.

• 40:12Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, he was coming right off of Schindler's List.

• 40:14Speaker 03

  He showed me the tape of him in the Schindler's List haircut. And he said, what do you think of this guy? You know, and we'd, we'd have a lot of time alone, me and Mr. Redford. So it was, he's a very interesting man. Because he didn't get to do all these eccentric characters. But he could play almost all the characters in the movie, you know, when we'd be alone, so.

• 40:43Speaker 00

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• 41:51Josh Horowitz?

  One of the many things that I love about your career is like, you know, you can work for the Redfords and the Coen Brothers and the Spikeleys. And yet, there's also a segment of your fanbase probably that knows you from like Adam Sandler films, right? Like, do you see like, any difference?

• 42:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:06Josh Horowitz?

  You do?

• 42:06Speaker 03

  Yeah. So I, not with Adam so much, but with some like maybe Transformers films.

• 42:12Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 42:13Speaker 03

  I consider that my, if I was a builder, that's my electrical job.

• 42:17Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 42:18Speaker 03

  Right? And then my other jobs, that's my plumbing work.

• 42:21Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 42:21Speaker 03

  You know what I mean? Like this, like Quiz Show is my plumbing work.

• 42:23Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 42:24Speaker 03

  You know what I mean? So you have to have a toolbox. But when you do these things, it's, it's, it's like less of... Uh, uh, uh, an intricate portrait that you're painting. It's more of a sketch, you know, uh, and within that, you can do a lot of things. And it's really hard, you know, to do that. But without him, I've had fun doing like the Zohan or Mr. Deeds.

• 42:46Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, you get to work with Nicholson in Anger Management, that's something.

• 42:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, he had told Nicholson that I was gonna do the film.

• 42:52Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, so you were bait.

• 42:53Speaker 03

  So he was a big fan of my first movie, Mac. And he was like, oh, John's Johnny's gonna be in it, great. And then, then Sandler called me up, he said, you know, Nicholson, he's excited you're gonna be in the movie. You know, he wants to do the movie. And I was like, oh, so you blackmailed me. So, uh, so then, you know, when I met him, you know, uh, he was, he was really funny. And he was, he was really nice to me and I was a huge fan of his and stuff. And I did ask him, we were doing the movie, you know, so how's it going, Mr. Nicholson? You know, he's gonna call me Jack, man, you know, call me Jack. And I said, how's it, you know, what, what's it like? He goes, well, I said, what's sort of the tone of the, of the movie? He goes, well, let me tell you, Johnny, there is no tone.

• 43:37Speaker 03

  He goes, you know, I've been all over the map, man. I've been, you know, in the Strindberg play, I've been in a, you know, a Pirandello play. And he was, you know, he had all these metaphors and stuff. But, you know, I told Sandler, I said, you know, he's, there's no tone, you know, he says, you know. Uh, so I just, you know, but he was great just to be around. And he was so giving off camera. He was, he was, he's like a real.

• 44:00Josh Horowitz?

  I've always heard that.

• 44:01Speaker 03

  Really giving off camera.

• 44:02Josh Horowitz?

  A few good men, the famous story is that he did like all like, yeah, he did the reverses even when he did anything.

• 44:07Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, he was really great. And, you know, he loved my first movie. He had sent, told me he saw it three times and I was really, you know, these are people that, that have had major, you know, effect on you. And when you meet them, it's, you know, you, you have to digest that because they're part of. Why you do what you do.

• 44:29Josh Horowitz?

  Have you reconciled that you have now shifted into that for actors that, younger actors that you work with on a set?

• 44:34Speaker 03

  I, you know, I, I, I can't, that doesn't really help me, you know, I.

• 44:41Josh Horowitz?

  I'm sure like.

• 44:41Speaker 03

  I, I don't wanna be like, well, I know what I'm doing now.

• 44:45Josh Horowitz?

  I'm sure Riz Ahmed looking at you on set and says.

• 44:47Speaker 03

  I helped Riz because Riz was under a lot of pressure. And I, you know, he would vent and do a thing. I said, well, you just have to speak up for yourself. You can do it in a, in a reasonable way. You know, if you don't like something, if you're being, you feel like you're being pushed around or whatever. And Riz would sometimes vent and, and I kind of, you know, uh, showed him a little bit of how I learned to navigate things. Cause I worked with some directors who were really abusive, you know, I mean physically abusive and, you know, I mean. So then I learned, I said, well, I have to speak up for myself, you know, otherwise. You know, it doesn't really help your performance if you're being, if you're tense and everything.

• 45:30Speaker 03

  And that was kind of a school of, of directing for some people.

• 45:34Josh Horowitz?

  It was a type of director too. I think you've mentioned before, the Chaminos and the Friedkens were aggressive men at the time that were not.

• 45:40Speaker 03

  I mean, I worked with like Francesco Rosie and he wasn't that way. He was a masterful director. But he would show you all these things to do physically and stuff and I loved working with Francesco.

• 45:50Josh Horowitz?

  Where does in the Venn diagram, like doing something like for Matt Reeves in, in the Batman, is that?

• 45:54Speaker 03

  Well, that was, you know, I put a lot of work into it. I was reading all the comics and, you know, uh, the comics that inspired that and stuff. And, uh, I, I took it seriously, you know, and I also went to the source material, you know, too. And I had, I told him, I said, I'll do it if I can wear these glasses.

• 46:14Josh Horowitz?

  That was.

• 46:15Speaker 03

  Because I said, everyone else has a mask and I want a mask too. And, uh, I don't have like really cold eyes. So I, I know that. And so I, you know, when you have that shield, that, that helps you. Sometimes one thing.

• 46:29Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 46:29Speaker 03

  Or, uh, it can be something physically or a costume piece and it can. You know, it can free you, you know, in a way, but I, I take it seriously.

• 46:40Josh Horowitz?

  It's tough to, you, you passed on The Penguin. Was that just sort of?

• 46:43Speaker 03

  No, I had done it already.

• 46:44Josh Horowitz?

  You did it.

• 46:44Speaker 03

  I, I felt like I had done it already and, you know, uh, I, I, I liked what I did. I, I, I felt really good doing Batman. And I don't know if I wanted to be in, you know, to continue and be in another series and things like that. I, I like to come in and, you know, and then do my thing and

• 47:01Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 47:01Speaker 03

  and then leave and, and, and just then I, then I go.

• 47:04Josh Horowitz?

  Is there a director that's eluded you? Who's on the list? Where, where's the?

• 47:07Speaker 03

  Oh, there's a lot of.

• 47:08Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, where's the Coppola? Where's the, I don't know.

• 47:10Speaker 03

  Coppola I never, you know, worked with. Like there's people, you know, Tarantino, you know, uh, Sometimes I've turned things down and then if you turn something down, sometimes then the person thinks you don't, you know, want to work with them. And sometimes it's a family decision.

• 47:28Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 47:28Speaker 03

  And sometimes, or someone's sick or something, you know, and.

• 47:33Josh Horowitz?

  Is there one you regret that you can say?

• 47:34Speaker 03

  Yeah. Uh, there's a few. Yeah. I mean, I turned down, I didn't turn down Stanley Kubrick, but Stanley Kubrick called me up for Eyes Wide Shut and I was like shocked that he knew all about me. He asked me about all these actors and I was like, he goes, you know, I had just finished La Tragua, The Truce. And I spent five years, uh, uh, preparing for that, uh, you know, while I was doing other things. He knew all about Primo Levi. We talked about Primo Levi. And he said, you know, I, I think, you know, you're a terrific actor. And I said, well, thank you.

• 48:15Speaker 03

  He goes, well, you are. I was like, well, I can't walk around my house saying that to my wife. She'll hit me over the head. You know, with a frying pan. And he said, well, I'm going to send you a script. And I, you know, I think, you know, you, you know, and I hope you like it. He goes, you'll like it.

• 48:33Speaker 03

  And then what do we do? I said, well, you know, he said, but I heard you may do a movie next year as a director. I said, I, I don't have the money. And so I didn't say to him, he said, I wrote this part for you. I didn't say to him, whatever it is, I will do. But I was so excited. I said, I'll read it and then we'll, you know, we'll work it out. I was talking to him like a normal person. And he said, "Well, how can I get you the script?" I said, "Well, FedEx it." He goes, "What if you're not home?" I said, "Well, I know my FedEx man." His name is Ray, and he throws it over the gate.

• 49:07Speaker 03

  And he said, "Well, that's unbelievable." I said, "Well, do you know your FedEx man, you know?" So, I was just trying to be a normal person. And anyway, he told me, he wrote the role for me, he wanted me to do it, and what do I think of Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman? I was like all excited. The next day, I heard that I wasn't available. I was unavailable, because I didn't tell him, you know, no matter what.

• 49:30Josh Horowitz?

  He's used to getting that immediate, no matter what.

• 49:32Speaker 03

  That's it. And I didn't know that at the time, and I just tried to be a regular. So, I would have liked to have worked with him, just because I'm a big fan of his, and see how I would have survived doing a hundred takes.

• 49:43Josh Horowitz?

  A year-long shoot, exactly.

• 49:45Speaker 03

  You know what I mean?

• 49:45Josh Horowitz?

  That would have been a year of your life.

• 49:46Speaker 03

  I would have been replaced, or whatever.

• 49:47Josh Horowitz?

  We had Harvey Keitel lost his...

• 49:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, lots of people lost it. There were a lot of people who were replaced.

• 49:51Josh Horowitz?

  Which role would it have been?

• 49:53Speaker 03

  I was the piano player. But there was a scene at the end that...

• 49:56Josh Horowitz?

  I feel that.

• 49:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, they didn't have, and I guess he was in three different parts of the movie, and they think they cut that, but, anyway, so, you know, I would have liked to just had an encounter with Stanley.

• 50:09Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 50:09Speaker 03

  You know what I mean, so... So that's something that, you know...

• 50:15Josh Horowitz?

  You've got plenty of great experiences, but you got a Stanley Kubrick conversation, that's more than most can say.

• 50:19Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, that's a long... Two hours. And we talked about Primo Levi at length.

• 50:24Josh Horowitz?

  Amazing.

• 50:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:25Josh Horowitz?

  A couple of audience questions. What books are you currently reading? One of our audience members would like to know.

• 50:29Speaker 03

  What books am I reading? Well, I've decided to read Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment, which I have never read, because I've read some of his other books, but I'm reading that book, and I read... You know, I read all different kinds of authors. I'm a book person.

• 50:50Josh Horowitz?

  I've also discovered he's the biggest WNBA fan, new WNBA fan lately, right?

• 50:54Speaker 03

  I'm a basketball fan, and I've always followed a women's college. But now, I have Liberty tickets, and I love it. I love it. It's fascinating to watch, and it reminds me of basketball before it was played above the rim.

• 51:11Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 51:11Speaker 03

  And I love the teamwork and the passing that goes on at the game. I think it's really, really good basketball.

• 51:19Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 51:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, excellent.

• 51:20Josh Horowitz?

  Would you rather have a New York Liberty championship or an Oscar?

• 51:25Speaker 03

  Well, there is a, they already won the championship.

• 51:26Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 51:27Speaker 03

  So, I don't know. But if it would be like the Knicks championship, you know, I mean, that would be, I mean, a tough one.

• 51:33Josh Horowitz?

  That's a tough decision.

• 51:34Speaker 03

  You know, that's a tough one.

• 51:35Josh Horowitz?

  It's a long time coming.

• 51:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, that's a communal

• 51:38Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 51:38Speaker 03

  victory. For everyone, you know.

• 51:41Josh Horowitz?

  The fact that you're even considering that as the option means you're thinking of your fellow Knicks fans.

• 51:45Speaker 03

  Well, it's, uh, it's, it's a great thing, the collective. I, I, I, I think the individual thing, you know, it's, it's terrific in some ways, but it really takes teamwork

• 51:59Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 51:59Speaker 03

  to do something that's really good. In, in sports, or in a movie, or in a play, it, it, there's a lot of components to it. And I don't think it's right when people say, "Well, you know, this is the best." It, it's, you weren't doing it by yourself, you know. Someone sat before a blank page

• 52:21Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 52:22Speaker 03

  wrote it, and there's a designer, and there's a lot of choices that goes into that. And I love when I see beautiful teamwork, or if I watch, you know, something and everyone is excellent in it. Like, you can't, you don't know where to look. And that's, there's something great about that.

• 52:40Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, yeah, you're only as good as your, your collaborator, your co-star.

• 52:44Speaker 03

  That's right. That's why I wanted to work with, you know, with Christopher Walken.

• 52:47Josh Horowitz?

  I was gonna say.

• 52:48Speaker 03

  Because I thought, listen, you know, Ben said, you know, "You're gonna have a love affair with someone." And I was like, "Chris."

• 52:56Speaker 03

  I love Chris, and I love working with him, and I've directed him, and I've, I've watched him on stage. I saw him play Elvis Presley in a play that he wrote based on National Enquirer articles. Where he's dressed as a woman, Elvis, and as a waitress, and, you know, and he never really died. But, you know, we have a lot of fun. And he's someone I, you know, admired when I was younger, and I still think he's a wonderful actor. And we just laugh. And I thought, "Well, if there's someone you have that simpatico with, it's easy to be in love with them."

• 53:33Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 53:34Speaker 03

  Because if you're gonna laugh with someone, then, you know, it's, then it's maybe, okay, you're attracted to someone or whatever. And he, he's also very, he has a fragility to him. And I just thought...

• 53:49Speaker 03

  I don't have to act. I don't really, I can just be with him. And he's like a jazz musician because he spins it. And so you have to be really on your toes.

• 54:01Josh Horowitz?

  In the moment, always.

• 54:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, and he doesn't like, you know, like he didn't want to like really like kiss and stuff like that. And I was making fun of him one day. I said, you know, Chris, I said, the only reason I wanted to do this, I said, you know, was to kiss you. So and he was like, not doing it, you know. It's a cliche, man. He was like, you know. But you know, it is interesting that in, you know, when we see these scenes and stuff like that, it's always the things that lead up to something that is kind of evocative or sensual or even, you know. But when we see people actually do it, we're like, yeah, well, they're not really doing it. You know what I mean? They're kind of doing it, but not really, you know. But it's the things that...

• 54:42Josh Horowitz?

  Anticipation, yeah.

• 54:43Speaker 03

  It's the anticipation. And so I've loved, you know, working with Chris. I mean, I really, I have a very warm spot.

• 54:53Josh Horowitz?

  Is he as much of a Luddite as I hear? Does he have like a phone?

• 54:56Speaker 03

  He doesn't have a phone. I've shown him my phone. He's amazed by it. He's like, oh, my God, you know? He's, this is great, you know? It's just, and he's a very humble actor. He talks about all these performances, which I've seen him do, you know, that this was good, this wasn't good. I'm not, you know, great at Shakespeare. And he just has a sense of play. And a lot of actors, they don't, they take themselves so seriously. They forget, like little kids when they play, they're great. You know, you watch them play. I mean, they believe it, you know, they're in it. And so Chris has the experience,

• 55:40Speaker 03

  but he also has that playfulness of a child.

• 55:43Josh Horowitz?

  Well, it makes you great, but also let's factor in, don't you want to enjoy this? Don't you want to have fun until the end? Like, the day it stops being fun, why are you doing this?

• 55:53Speaker 03

  Right, you know, it's a tricky balance. You win because people's egos and all kinds of things. I want to be good. It was a great director. I did many plays with him. The Cherry Orchard and Endgame, Master Builder, Andre Belgrado. And he used to always tell us, you know, don't try to be good. Just do it, do your thing, you know, but don't, don't, don't put that on you.

• 56:19Josh Horowitz?

  Focus on the, don't focus on the result.

• 56:21Speaker 03

  That's right, focus on what you're doing, you know what I mean? And, uh, and it's very wise words.

• 56:28Josh Horowitz?

  We're gonna end with a happy second if you use profoundly random questions for you, John.

• 56:32Speaker 03

  Okay, fine.

• 56:33Josh Horowitz?

  Are you a dog or a cat person?

• 56:35Speaker 03

  Dog or a cat person? Well, I had a cat in the night of and Bam Bam and everyone loved Bam Bam, but I'm allergic to cats, so, uh...

• 56:43Josh Horowitz?

  Dogs by default?

• 56:44Speaker 03

  So, yeah, but cats are more independent.

• 56:47Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 56:47Speaker 03

  You know what I mean? So, yeah.

• 56:49Josh Horowitz?

  Do you collect anything?

• 56:51Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 56:53Josh Horowitz?

  Let me rephrase that. What do you collect?

• 56:55Speaker 03

  Sadly, like everything, you know? No, I, I have a huge vintage movie poster collection. I'm really, I need more walls. I need like, I need, Dennis Hopper had these sliding walls that Frank Gehry made in his house and he would have all these great paintings he could slide in and out. I need that, I, I have that, I...

• 57:18Josh Horowitz?

  What's the most prized movie poster you have? What's your crown?

• 57:20Speaker 03

  Oh, there's a lot of great ones I have. I mean, I have like Charles Lawton Polish poster of Hunchback of Notre Dame, which I consider one of the great, he's one of the greatest actors of all time and that's a great performance. So, yes, and, you know, when I first started doing, you know, movies and things, I would keep, you know, uh, all those cinema magazines, American Film, because I was like, wow, I'm in the magazine and now I have all these magazines. What am I gonna do? You know what I mean? What am I gonna do with these magazines? It's so, I guess, when you don't have a lot growing up, it's hard to throw things away

• 57:59Speaker 03

  and, uh, you know, uh, so I'm putting things, I, I wanna like give my archive away to like my undergrad school if they want it, so it's, uh... But I, I don't throw things away easily.

• 58:13Josh Horowitz?

  No, I get it, I get it. Uh, what's the wallpaper on your phone?

• 58:17Speaker 03

  The wallpaper?

• 58:17Josh Horowitz?

  Background on your phone?

• 58:19Speaker 03

  Oh, my god.

• 58:21Speaker 03

  Well, actually, my son and I, we, we bought Speedos when we were in Sicily. So, uh, so there's both, there's a picture of us in Speedos.

• 58:29Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 58:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, uh, uh, my younger son, and so, he's very proud of that. And, uh, so, you know, you know, it's, that's, that's, that's what it is.

• 58:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, Channing Tatum saw it and he like flipped out. He goes like, "Magic Mike!" He goes, you know. I was like, "Listen, I was stripping way before you, man." You know. No, that's a whole other thing. I mean, like, you know, my mom used to, you know, do like a kind of faux striptease for my dad, you know, when he was depressed. She would do it. And I actually have family films. I mean, she would have leotards on, you know what I mean? But she would have like, you know, like leopard panties and bra over the leotards. And we would be dancing with her three boys. You know, trying to entertain my father because he'd be like in a depression or something. You know what I mean? And I have this on eight millimeter film.

• 59:22Speaker 03

  I saw it, I was like, "I've never seen anything like this in my life!" You know? And my mother would do all kinds of things to make my father smile. She did. And matter of fact, in Romance and Cigarettes, I used a thing where, when my father, he had cancer and stuff like that, I was over the house visiting and he wasn't doing that well. And my mother like ran into the living room with a big kitchen knife. Like, "Ah!" screaming. And my father threw his hands up, like, "Oh, my God!" You know, and I was like, and then he just smiled and she walked out. And I was like, "What?

• 1:00:06Speaker 03

  What was that?" And so my father said, "Oh, I ask your mother to do that every once in a while just so he goes, 'Just so I know I'm alive.'"

• 1:00:18Speaker 03

  And I realized, this is one of the greatest like love scenes I ever seen in my life. And I put it in the movie. It's still not as good as when my mother and father did it. But I was like, "Oh, my God, like she's doing this just so he can have like a jolt." And so when you see stuff like that, that's someone doing it for someone else. And I learned a lot about acting. Between my parents, because they, they went moment to moment. Nothing passed with them. Like, my, my father would, my, my mother would give my father a look. He said, "Well, what's that look?" He would say. "I know what, I know what you're thinking." She would say, "Yeah, you know what I'm, you know, and I know what's on your mind." You know, they would go back and forth.

• 1:01:01Speaker 03

  And when I first brought my wife, uh, which we were just, my girlfriend Kathy over, she, she just, she couldn't take it. She's like, she started crying at the table. She had, my mother said, "Well, you know, you'll get used to it or you'll leave." Just that's it. You know what I mean? That's just the way it is. But it was like, they were, that was like a better than any acting class. And when I went to acting class, I was like, "Ah." I might see my mother, father do this all the time. You know what I mean? And you know, they would watch movies together and my father would be laughing, my mother would be crying. I usually was with my mother, like, I would be get emotional. He was like, "Why is he crying?" You know, "This is a good movie." You know what I mean? Yeah, uh, you know. My god, I love it. I mean, Betty Davis was a big, uh, you know, my mother loved Betty Davis. And Jenna Rollins. Sure.

• 1:01:47Speaker 03

  My mother loved Jenna Rollins. My mother, you know, when Gloria, when she says, when she's on a train with a gun and she says, "You, you let a woman beat you." She, you know, she, and my mother just, she just loved Jenna Rollins so much. And once we went to see opening night at the New York Film Festival. And with my brother and my wife and, and there's funny things. But in Casavetes films, they're not cued. You don't know what to laugh at. Right, there's no laugh line. So it's about your sensibility or my sensib- or someone else's. And we were laughing because there's a play within a play. And we thought it was hilarious. And this woman was like, you know, it was like, it was like the centerpiece or something.

• 1:02:29Speaker 03

  She had a big fur coat on and, you know, she had some work done. Well, she kept turning to my mother. We were laughing and laughing, like as if we shouldn't be laughing. So my mother goes to me like, "Why is she keep, why does she keep turning around?" I said, "She doesn't get it, ma." So then she turns around and my mother goes, "You turn around one more time." She goes, "And I'm gonna punch you right in the face." Like that. And I was like. It was like right out of the movie, you know what I mean? And I was like, I was mortified, but I was like, you know what? I said, you know, she says, we get it, because you don't, you know what I mean? Watch the movie, you know what I mean? And I told that to Jenna Rowland once, because I had lunch with her. And she just said, that was a typical reaction to some of our films. Because people didn't know.

• 1:03:12Speaker 03

  And she just said, I would wish I got to meet your mother. I said, well, my mother just loves you so much.

• 1:03:18Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, if we've learned nothing else tonight, it's bring your parents to movies. I mean, your dad back in the day.

• 1:03:23Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 1:03:24Josh Horowitz?

  Your film, the Friedkin film. Your mom at Cassavetes.

• 1:03:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, they just, they were, they were in.

• 1:03:29Josh Horowitz?

  They were in it.

• 1:03:30Speaker 03

  They were in the movie. They didn't like, it wasn't like, like.

• 1:03:34Josh Horowitz?

  No distance.

• 1:03:34Speaker 03

  This passionate, no, no, no, no, like, you know, it's. My father would, I mean, put in one Mac, I put in, he'd be dead asleep. Because he got up at four o'clock in the morning. And there'd be a movie on. And then, in a climactic moment, he wake up. And he interact with the movie, right? And then go back to sleep. And, I mean, I saw it many times. Especially with Burt Lancaster, you know what I mean? And he would be, ah, you can't, you can't fuck with Burt, you know what I mean? It was like, yeah, and then he'd go back to sleep, you know what I mean? And I was just like, this is, you know. All my, all my friends, my friends growing up, they would like to hang out with my father.

• 1:04:16Josh Horowitz?

  I can imagine.

• 1:04:17Speaker 03

  Because he was just like, completely, like, unconscious. And I think that's a.

• 1:04:23Josh Horowitz?

  No filter, yeah.

• 1:04:24Speaker 03

  Well, you know, people have asked me, they said, well, what, what? You don't seem to be inhibited. I said, no, I'm not inhibited.

• 1:04:31Josh Horowitz?

  There it is.

• 1:04:31Speaker 03

  No, because I feel like, I don't really care. Like, you know, my, you know, I saw my parents do that, and it's like, and if you have enough affirmation in your life, you're willing to try. And it may not work, or whatever, but, you know, you have to get past embarrassment sometimes. And sometimes it's quite embarrassing.

• 1:04:52Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, I know we're over time, but indulge me in the last couple of things. Last actor you were mistaken for, does it ever happen?

• 1:04:58Speaker 03

  Nicolas Cage many times. Who, there's someone else I get sometimes, I don't, a lot of times, people say they look just like me. And I, they don't look like me.

• 1:05:10Josh Horowitz?

  Only one, John Turturro.

• 1:05:11Speaker 03

  They say, "Guys tell I look just like you." And I'm like, "No, you don't."

• 1:05:17Josh Horowitz?

  What's the worst note a director has ever given you?

• 1:05:20Speaker 03

  Tense up, you know, do it like you did it in another movie. Then I feel like telling them, "You know what? You know, why don't you get another job?" You know what I mean? It's just like, you can't ask me to do something I did before. That's like cheating on somebody. You know what I mean? It's like, no, that's, come up with your own idea. You know what I mean? So, uh, yeah. Or someone, like a director telling me, "You have to trust me on the first day." It's like, I told this one director, I said, "Well, I don't know you." "I don't know you, how can I trust you?" I said, "I'm also half Sicilian, so I don't trust." "I don't trust easily, okay?" "And I don't forget easily."

• 1:06:03Josh Horowitz?

  And in the spirit of happy, sad, confused. An actor who always makes you happy. You see them on screen, you're happier immediately.

• 1:06:08Speaker 03

  Oh, well, there's so many of them.

• 1:06:10Josh Horowitz?

  One that comes to mind?

• 1:06:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, one that, uh, God, that makes me happier all the time? Well, I talked, I said Jenna Rollins makes me happy. You know, Barbara Stanwyck, you know what I mean? Burt Lancaster, you know, uh, Edward G. Robinson. Love Edward G. Robinson. James Cagney.

• 1:06:27Josh Horowitz?

  A movie that always makes you sad, breaks you down.

• 1:06:31Speaker 03

  Oh, man, there's a lot of those, you know? I mean, I love, I love, I love, uh, On the Waterfront. I mean, you know, uh, I love, uh, that, I, I don't know, there's so many. Charles Lawton in, uh, in a lot of different things. I think Edward G. Robinson's really, really, really powerful, powerful actor. You know, uh...

• 1:07:01Josh Horowitz?

  Those are great.

• 1:07:01Speaker 03

  There's so many, so many, it's hard for me to pick, you know? I love Robert Mitchum, you know, uh, so...

• 1:07:11Josh Horowitz?

  And finally, a food that makes you confused, John. You don't, a food that makes you confused. You see it on a menu, why do people eat that? I don't understand.

• 1:07:18Speaker 03

  Well, I don't like coffees that have all different kinds of things in them.

• 1:07:21Josh Horowitz?

  Just keep it pure.

• 1:07:22Speaker 03

  I don't, I don't, I don't accept that.

• 1:07:26Josh Horowitz?

  Like you're not a frappuccino?

• 1:07:27Speaker 03

  No, I, no. No, no, no. That does not work. No, that's like, that's a malted, you know what I mean? It's like, you want a malted?

• 1:07:36Josh Horowitz?

  I love a malted, though.

• 1:07:37Speaker 03

  Malted is good, but it's a malted.

• 1:07:39Josh Horowitz?

  It is a malted.

• 1:07:40Speaker 03

  You can't say, you know, it's a, you know, a cinnamon raisin, this, that, whatever, you know, I hear them describe it, I'm like, this is disgusting. I mean, because a great espresso, a great, like if you get it in Naples in Italy, I mean, it's, it has the crema, it's, you know, and maybe they rim it with sugar, you know, and it, it's like bitter chocolate, you know, if you want it with sugar or not, but that's an art form, you know, and it takes the coffee and it talks, a certain kind of water, too. So, I like it potente.

• 1:08:16Josh Horowitz?

  We like your acting potente, too. You do it well, sir. Congratulations on the new season of Severance. I'm sure you guys have checked it out, but check it out again, Spread the Good Word on Apple TV+.

• 1:08:28Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 1:08:29Josh Horowitz?

  Thank you so much for going down.

• 1:08:30Speaker 03

  Oh, this is always a great place. Love to be there.

• 1:08:32Josh Horowitz?

  Thank you.

• 1:08:33Speaker 03

  Thank you very much. Thank you.

• 1:08:35Josh Horowitz?

  Thanks, everybody.

• 1:08:36Speaker 04

  And so ends another edition of Coffee Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't supposed to do this by Josh.

• 1:09:00Speaker 08

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