How Des Linden Won Boston: Lessons on Big Goals, Showing Up & Loving The Work

On April 16, 2018, Des Linden captured the hearts of millions the world over by becoming the first American female in 33 years to win the prestigious Boston Marathon. It wasn't just that she won. It's how she won. You see, this wasn't supposed to be Des' year. It wasn't supposed to be Des' race. Her preparation wasn't ideal. She didn't feel great. And doubt crept in. On top of everything, the weather conditions were unprecedented. So Des Linden decided to do what nobody does — sacrifice herself and her personal performance for the benefit of her friends. She famously pulled up when Shalane Flanagan detoured to the porta potty to pace her back to the group. Then selflessly repeated the gesture to help Molly Huddle bridge a separation gap. These are not things you do when you are in it to win it. But Des Linden is no ordinary athlete. And this was no ordinary race. At mile 22, Des surged out of nowhere, impossibly depositing her into the lead. In the biggest race of her life — on a day when Mother Nature and her icy rains and 25mph headwinds proved the biggest antagonist — she finally claimed the precious victory that had always previously eluded her. Today the 2-time Olympian shares her story. How she did it. What got her there. What it all means. And what's next. This is a conversation with Des and her long-time manager Josh Cox — the U. S. 50K record holder and former elite marathoner in his own right — about a storied athletic career that until now lacked just one thing: a major marathon victory. It's about what this particular victory means not just to Des, but to American women's marathoning and running in general. It's about the mindset that propelled her career to this historic moment. It's about leveraging past failures as an opportunity to grow — because failure is simply an action, not an identity. But more than anything, this is a conversation about the power of showing up. Because when you simply keep showing up for that which you love, you make room for the miracle. Applicable in running. Perhaps even more applicable in life. I sincerely hope you enjoy the exchange. For the visually inclined, you can watch our entire conversation on YouTube here: http://bit.ly/richanddes Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:07Speaker 01

  There was a lot of days where I didn't want to get out the door in the past couple of months, and it was just show up, just try, just see. And don't skip the job just because you think it might go a certain way, or you don't feel good. Just go and see. And most of the time, you get out the door, and it goes better than you thought. But if you don't do it at all, like, you have no chance of getting better. It's a zero. It's, you just look at it with some kind of regret, you know? So for me, it was just give yourself a chance, just try, just start. And it's not always gonna go your way, but you don't know unless you show up.

• 1:44Rich Roll?

  That's Des Linden, the great Des Linden, and this is the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 2:01Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. Can I read you guys something? I'm gonna read you guys something. It goes like this. "Some days it just flows and I feel like I'm born to do this. Other days, it feels like I'm trudging through hell. Every day, I make the choice to show up and see what I've got and to try and be better. My advice? Keep showing up." Now, these are not my words. I wish they were my words. They are the words of today's guest, Dez Linden. And I gotta tell you, I could not agree more wholeheartedly. My name is Rich Roll. I am your host. Welcome, welcome to the show where I dive deep, deep with the best and the brightest,

• 2:43Rich Roll?

  the most inspiring thought leaders and high performers across all categories of health, wellbeing, social responsibility, popular culture, and in the case of today's program, world-class athletic performance. Now, as many of you guys know, a couple of months ago, Dez Linden exploded on the scene. She captured the hearts and minds of millions of people all over the world when she became the first American female victor in the prestigious Boston Marathon in 33 years. The last time an American woman won this race was 1985. It was extraordinary. And she won in dramatic fashion on a day when the elements, Mother Nature, icy rains, and 25 mile an hour headwinds, were truly the main antagonists.

• 3:26Rich Roll?

  And today, the two-time Olympian comes by the podcast to share her story, how she did it, what got her there, and what's next. Okay. So. I happened to be on a flight to New York City during the Boston Marathon, so I couldn't watch it on TV. And generally, I don't get airplane Wi-Fi, but I had to on this particular flight, so I could follow the race online on Twitter. And I was just wrapped by the

• 4:02Rich Roll?

  whole thing. I was just so astounded at what Dez was able to do on this extraordinary day. So, I was delighted when her manager, Josh Cox, who is an amazing runner in his own right, a former top marathoner, a guy I've known for many, many years, who also happens to own the American record in the 50K, when Josh got in touch with me while I was in New York City about getting Dez on the show. So I was like, yes, I would like to do that. And so here we are today. This is a conversation with both Dez and Josh, who joins us for some great perspective as both an authority on running, as well as Dez's longtime manager. And it's a conversation about many things. What this victory means

• 4:47Rich Roll?

  to her, to American women's marathoning and running in general. It's about the career that led to this point, the mindset that finally propelled her to victory, and what it means to just, to show up, to keep showing up, and the applicability of this ethos, this theme, to not just running, but to everything in life. So this is me, Dez Linden, and Josh Cox. Good. All right, Josh, Dez, so nice to have you here. Thank you for making the trip out

• 5:28Rich Roll?

  to the hinterlands. I appreciate it. I can't imagine what your life is like right now. It's just been an absolute whirlwind for you, right? It's insane.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  That's the best way to put it. But it's all good stuff. So, still a lot of momentum and adrenaline with it.

• 5:42Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  It's making it all work.

• 5:44Rich Roll?

  It must be helping with the typical, sort of, post-marathon blues that...

• 5:50Rich Roll?

  tend to happen, right? Like you must be riding this crazy wave of energy.

• 5:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. I think you take the time off afterwards and you start processing like, what do I want to do better? Well, you know, if you don't get the outcome you want, you do all that. And I haven't even had time to think about the race.

• 6:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you're too busy like throwing baseballs out.

• 6:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm working on my throwing arm.

• 6:10Rich Roll?

  And, you know, hugging Taylor Swift and stuff like that. Like, it's so cool to, to, to see like mainstream culture really embrace like the accomplishment that you have, that you, that you made and, and really shine a spotlight on not just marathon running, but like women's marathon running. It's super cool.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's been probably the most surprising part, just seeing the places it's reached, but very rewarding because the women's side was highlighted this year. And, you know, John Hancock had this expectation for the American women to do something really big and they brought in the great group and like it was good to get it done.

• 6:49Rich Roll?

  Well, it was all about the women's race. There was almost no ink on the men's race at all. You had to really search for it. It was just all about the women, which was super cool. So can you walk me through it? Can we talk about the race? Are you tired of talking about it?

• 7:03Speaker 01

  Let's talk about it.

• 7:04Rich Roll?

  Cool. Well, I think there's so many kind of interesting entry points into, into that experience. But I think, you know, a good way to kind of, I think, launch into it is to talk about your buildup to the race. Because from what I understand, it wasn't like the best sort of training cycle going into it, right? Like, were your expectations tempered as you lined up on the starting line?

• 7:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, probably more so than ever before. And a lot, a lot of it was the months prior to. So last fall, I decided to not do a fall marathon and just almost step away from running for a little bit and kind of hit reset and remind myself why I'm doing this or if I want to do that. And almost gave myself an out, like if you don't want to do this anymore, if you don't want to be competitive, it's okay. And just try this for a while and see if you can take a step back from the sport.

• 7:57Rich Roll?

  Right. So you took like five months off after 17, right?

• 8:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a, it was probably three, three months off. And then it was like, do I feel like running today? Okay, great. Do I, and if I didn't, that's great, too.

• 8:10Rich Roll?

  Did you think, was there a possibility at that time that you thought you might retire?

• 8:15Speaker 01

  Not retire, but maybe lower my expectations and pick different races that maybe were like, I really wanted to win a marathon.

• 8:23Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 8:24Speaker 01

  Um, and I've been shooting for Boston, New York, the games, these really big races. And I was like, maybe I go do the local one, or maybe I do the Detroit marathon, or the Traverse City one, or whatever it may be, just so I could have that experience of

• 8:38Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 8:38Speaker 01

  winning a marathon, because you kind of need that.

• 8:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, you, you, you've sort of been a bridesmaid for throughout your career. Like, you've been able to kind of ascend to the top of the sport and yet still lacked that, like, one big victory.

• 8:51Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 8:52Rich Roll?

  And so was that part of what kind of motivated you to get back into serious training? Or?

• 8:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I, I missed it when I wasn't training and running. I was, it got to the point where I started to miss it, and that was a good sign.

• 9:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that is a good sign.

• 9:06Speaker 01

  And then I started doing races that were short and just out of my wheelhouse, but I could do a lot of races and compete. And you do a 5K every weekend. And I was like, oh, that, this is fun, too. Like, I like competing.

• 9:18Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 9:19Speaker 01

  And just kind of rebuilt my love that way. Um, but it's not ideal for marathon training to have a block of inconsistency.

• 9:28Rich Roll?

  Right. But I think finding that love for the sport is something that perhaps is a little bit underrated in the long run, right?

• 9:36Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 9:36Rich Roll?

  If you're hating it every day, you could be super fit or hitting all your marks in your workouts, but your mental game isn't going to be as dialed as it possibly could.

• 9:45Speaker 01

  Right. I mean, having the passion for competing and for what you're doing, you know, makes all the difference. If it's a job, if it's, all it is is a job, like, you're not going to be great. Um, you gotta love the work, too.

• 9:59Rich Roll?

  But at some point, it must have clicked in, like, okay, I'm going to Boston, like, it's time to get serious.

• 10:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, and Boston's always been the race that got me fired up. So, once that was on the, the schedule and it was like, I'm going to that race, um, That's when I have an easier time preparing and like, okay, this is where I visualize myself down Boylston and you know, I've been doing that ever since I first ran there in 2007. Like I'm picturing yourself winning that race.

• 10:26Rich Roll?

  You named your dog Boston, right?

• 10:28Speaker 01

  I did, yeah.

• 10:29Rich Roll?

  So this is, this is like a heavy thing. Like why, why, I mean, I understand, but like, why, why Boston? Why not New York? Why not Berlin?

• 10:37Speaker 01

  Sure. Boston was my debut marathon, 2007. It was similar conditions to this year's. Not quite as bad, but you know, it was a thing that kept me in the sport. I never thought I was going to be a professional runner. And I was like, well, try this marathon, try to qualify for the Olympic trials and then move on to the next thing. But after that race, I was like, I love this event. I love 26.2 miles, but this course and with all the history, it just captured my heart. And it was like, I wanted to see what I can do here.

• 11:12Rich Roll?

  But prior to that, I think I had read that you thought like marathoning was crazy. Like it wasn't like you were always pining to run a marathon.

• 11:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I still think it's crazy. But yeah, I wasn't sold on it at all. I mean, coming out of, in college, I was a person who was like, the 10K is insane. There's no way I'm running that far. I'm a 1500 meter runner.

• 11:33Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 11:34Speaker 01

  And the coach is like 5K and you're like, oh, fine. You get talked into the longer stuff.

• 11:38Rich Roll?

  It's interesting looking at the trajectory of your career because you were, you were a good high school runner and you were a good college runner, but you weren't like a superstar. Like I think you got third at pack tens or something like that at ASU. So it wasn't like, oh, I'm going to have a career as a professional runner and, and just rise all the way to the top.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:58Rich Roll?

  Is that, is that fair to say or?

• 11:59Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Yeah, same, same type of bridesmaid thing where I was an All-American. I was a runner up, I believe, at, at the high school level at a state championships and But I always competed and worked out with athletes who had those big breakthrough performances. Like I ran with Amy Hastings, now Craig, Victoria Jackson, Lisa Aguilar, all these people who won national championships. And I did everything with them. So it's like, what am I doing wrong that I can't have this breakthrough? What am I doing wrong that, you know, I'm working out and doing the exact same stuff as these guys. So I have the ability, I'm just haven't got it done yet.

• 12:40Rich Roll?

  So what do you think it was that was not allowing you to get up on that next rung at that time? Like, what did you learn over the years that has allowed you to come? Because like, your career is really just one of gradual progression upward, right?

• 12:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was patience, just letting my body adapt to the work and not forcing things. But it was also even in college, it was like, I wanted it so bad that I tried to force it. And sometimes you have to like step back and like, again, like, love what you're doing and just engage in the process and not worry about the result. Like, just worry about what you're doing right now. And I felt like when I would see things slipping, like, oh, the result is not going to happen today, I would just like, get so frustrated and find myself giving up on it.

• 13:34Rich Roll?

  So like detaching from those short-term results and just falling in love with running itself and kind of having a longer-term view?

• 13:43Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 13:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So in the ramp up to Boston, you take this, I mean, it sort of appears on paper like, that five-month period off was kind of instrumental, right? And kind of rebooting your operating system and getting you fresh and excited about the sport again?

• 14:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was definitely necessary. I don't think I could have gone through another big training block without having done that. I think I would have been really frustrated and maybe not even made it to the line to the start, you know. But when you go through the segment,

• 14:22Speaker 01

  I'm a big picture person. I don't think that a marathon result is predicated on the last three months. I say it's result of the last, you know, 12 months. And so I knew I had this big hole in my buildup, even though my buildup to Boston was pretty solid. If that makes sense.

• 14:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that makes sense. But does that play into your kind of mental confidence as you line up on the starting line, thinking, oh, man, like, this is like, the greatest aggregation of, you know, US female marathoners in, in God knows how long, right? And you're thinking about like, the days that you didn't train?

• 14:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, no, that was certainly on my mind. And I was like, thank goodness, it's pouring rain and there's other factors. Because you just expect to be exposed, you know, like, but you didn't do all the work this time. But I've also been doing this for

• 15:12Rich Roll?

  Long time.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  13 years as a pro. So, I mean, it's a kind of a blip on the radar, really.

• 15:18Rich Roll?

  And those Michigan winters.

• 15:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah, they played a huge part, I think.

• 15:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:23Rich Roll?

  So, so walk me through like, the first, you know, walk me through the first part of the race up until the, the big, you know, Chalane event.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm, I didn't feel great. And I think part of me was thinking, this race was going to be a stepping stone for the next one to be really good. And so with the conditions, it was like, feel it out mile by mile. And if this is going to be detrimental to the building process of the next one, like, you have to just cut your losses today. Yeah. I think a lot of people are going to have a really hard time recovering from that race. And I was thinking about that upfront, which is not a great attitude to go in with, but it's also is realistic for like, the rest of my career you're thinking about, like, a couple more years to do this. So I don't want to.

• 16:13Speaker 01

  Blow another year on this race that could, you know, just be really hard to recover from.

• 16:19Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  So it was a weird mindset to have in a race and especially that early on.

• 16:25Speaker 01

  But that's where I was mentally and the pace was surprisingly, I thought we were just gonna jog. I thought it was gonna be like six thirty, seven minutes, no one's leading. And there was a couple of East Africans who took turns off the front, like really running in the five forties, five, mid five thirties and it's like, this seems really aggressive for these, these conditions. And so I think that was also playing into how I felt like this isn't sustainable.

• 16:51Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. And then you have a little chat with Shalane at some point, right?

• 16:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, and just all of that feeling and what I might, when I might step off the course if I was going to do that. Um, I just kinda turned to her and said, I, I don't think it's my day. Let me know if I can do anything for you. Cause she looked like she was ready to go. Everything in the interview is leading up is like, she's fit, she's got a shot to win this. She's coming off a great New York, so I'll block the wind if you need me to do that, just tuck in behind me.

• 17:20Rich Roll?

  I mean, that's a pretty amazing gesture, you know, in a race where it's all on the line for all of you guys. And I think ultimately that's a big part of why everybody fell in love with you. You know, like to sacrifice yourself on that level, you know, on the global, on the global stage. You know, for, for the, you know, for the, the betterment of, you know, American female marathoners is, is kind of an amazing thing. But she goes in, she does this thirteen second pit stop, right? And then you work her back up to the group, but the, the pace was pretty relaxed at that moment, right? Is that right?

• 17:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, she, she kinda faded back and was like, I need to go to the bathroom. Do you think it's a good idea? Which is the weirdest conversation ever mid race.

• 18:06Rich Roll?

  I mean, typically, does that happen that often? It doesn't seem to happen that, and that's kind of like, you're done if you have to do that, right? You're out of it.

• 18:13Speaker 02

  Typically, yeah.

• 18:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So Josh, you're you're in a hotel room by yourself pacing like in your underwear.

• 18:19Speaker 02

  Pretty much, yeah.

• 18:20Rich Roll?

  Screaming the TV like when you see this like what's going through your mind?

• 18:24Speaker 02

  Well, I was down in the friends and family area and it's they have a couple TVs, but you can't hear anything. And it's everyone's talking and the competitors' families are there too. So you can't really get into it. And I'm a big sports fan guy who it does yell at the TV and stuff and.

• 18:38Rich Roll?

  I need to focus.

• 18:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, and I just want to like pace and do the thing like you're saying. And I'm up there and I was a little bit surprised. Um, I mean, we obviously Des and I are really close and then she's like a sister of me and we've been working together since 2011. And she's always very honest with me and we talk a lot or we text a ton, actually. And, uh, but I had the night before I'd been in their hotel room with Ryan and we kind of for like two hours just talking about the plan and how it was gonna go or maybe not go or the weather and the factors. And we knew that the weather was gonna be a plus for Des.

• 19:16Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 19:17Speaker 02

  Because she's so tough between the ears that other athletes are gonna see it and view this as a total negative. And this is horrible. And look at these conditions and the headwind and the rain and she's just super tough.

• 19:30Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 19:31Speaker 02

  But all that, knowing how the buildup had gone, um, to see her drop back, I was like, okay, well, that's this is a new, uh, development.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  New tactic.

• 19:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. And she did it and she brought her back up and I'm like, that's it's really cool gesture. It's all class, you know, something that you don't see. Um, it was, you know, it was like cycling or something and the domestique going back and.

• 19:54Rich Roll?

  Right. Yeah, to pull the.

• 19:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:55Rich Roll?

  But but but you guys aren't technically teammates.

• 19:58Speaker 02

  No.

• 19:58Rich Roll?

  And you're not, you you'd make some prior agreement to, you know, work for the betterment of the team leader.

• 20:03Speaker 02

  No, no, they're actually rivals and they are team, you know, USA national team and Rio Olympians together and all of it. But yeah, there is, there's this thing, I think over the last couple of years, the rivalry has really turned into friendship, which is really cool with between Des and Shalane. And Shalane's an amazing runner and we couldn't have been happier with her New York performance. But yeah, she drops back to help her and it was, well, this is, this is very surprising.

• 20:30Rich Roll?

  I think you called, I read somewhere where you called, uh, you called Des a gamer.

• 20:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:35Rich Roll?

  So is there something about the heightened, um,

• 20:41Rich Roll?

  Experience of being in a race that that allows you to rise to the occasion like is your does your motivation come from from that you know being sort of placed in that kind of an experience or like is it about racing other people is it more internally driven like what gets you pumped up?

• 20:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I look forward to race day. I think some people get nervous or they're afraid of it a little bit like that's I say all the time you do all the training because the race is the reward. That's so fun to me like I love lining up with everything on the line like you could change your life today. That's so cool. I mean, and I look forward to it and I get excited about that. And I, I think that's why I'm this quote unquote gamers because I can't wait to race, you know, that's, that's what I'm looking forward to and I like the nervous anxious all of that and just going out and doing your thing.

• 21:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and and having trained in the in the Michigan winters, I mean, I would imagine you're thinking, oh, like this is, this is nothing compared to what I'm used to. These Africans are gonna just cave. They don't like to run in the rain at all.

• 21:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're not even going outside on a day like that.

• 21:54Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 21:54Speaker 01

  Um, but you know, I've had days in Michigan, there's some hilarious things that we do that you're like, that's just a bad idea. Like, I think I've run the coldest is negative 30 wind chill. Um, you know, and coaches like go out and run and we'll drive by you in case anyone gets a little too cold. And it's funny, you're just like, he's in, he's insane. This is the dumbest thing. There are treadmills, you know, and you go out and you do it, you stop whining for a second. Like, it's actually not that bad. Like, if you dress right and you have some people with you, I'm like, oh, like, I didn't die. And so it changes your perspective on what you can handle.

• 22:32Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 22:32Speaker 01

  I don't know if it's necessary, but.

• 22:34Rich Roll?

  So when you're out, when you're out on the course in Boston, is that looping in your mind like that day that you went out in the, in those kind of conditions?

• 22:42Speaker 01

  For sure. I mean, it's like I've done worse than this. I'm not this, you know, it could get bad. It could be a thing where you have to step off and say, well, if it was the negative 30 and I needed coach's car, it's there. If you need the out, no one's gonna fault you on a day like that. But I was also like, I've done this before. It's okay.

• 23:04Rich Roll?

  So after, after the, you know, working Shalane back up into the pack, was there a moment where, you know, you, things kind of shifted, like a gear shifted? And you thought like, actually, like, feel good, like, maybe I can, you know, take this? Or maybe I need to shift my expectation level?

• 23:24Speaker 01

  Um, it was a little while later. I actually got her up to the group and they had started turning off some good miles just because they knew she was being dropped. And so I, we worked back up and, and then I started falling off the back and I was like, oh, well, that's it. And I goes, that's, I did the gesture and we'll see what happens from here. But I thought it was going to be dropped and I kind of looked up and it's like, I was closing it down. They were kind of slowing up again. And then I, I saw Molly Huddle at the front and, you know, another American Hope who thought was going to have a great day. And I was like, she shouldn't be leading into the wind. Like, they're never going to close up the gap to Daska. If Molly's on the, if they do, if Molly does it, she's

• 24:09Speaker 01

  done. Like, that's her day. And so I just thought, I'll go up front and lead that group as long as I can and try to get them back up to Daska and then see what happens from there. Like, I can step off.

• 24:23Rich Roll?

  Sacrifice number two, right?

• 24:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:26Rich Roll?

  For the greater good.

• 24:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:27Rich Roll?

  And you were able to do that, right? Like, you worked that, you worked, you, you pulled them back up?

• 24:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I really, well, I reattached to that group because I'd been getting dropped. And then I went straight to the front and started pulling that group towards the leader. And a couple of minutes later, I looked back just to make sure, like, tuck in, don't take any wind on, like, I'm doing this, it's fine. I, I looked back and it was like, three of us that had totally pulled away from the group. Like, I had completely splintered it up. So I was like, well, I'm probably the strongest of all these people. If I'm dropping people, I might feel bad, but I'm clearly feeling better than everybody else. So I probably should stay in it.

• 25:07Rich Roll?

  That's super interesting, that, that sort of equation between how you feel and how you're actually doing, you know, like, your subjective experience versus objectively what's happening and being able to like, separate from how you feel and just continue to keep going.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I,

• 25:26Speaker 01

  My college coach, you know, would ask us before races all the time, like, you ready to go? And some people would respond, well, I feel kind of tired or my legs don't feel that poppy. He's like, I didn't, I didn't ask you how you felt. I don't care. You're either ready or you're not. And that's always kind of how I looked at it. Like, I've done the work, I'm ready, it doesn't matter how I feel. And I think because of the conditions I was really evaluating early on, like, how do I feel? Is this going to put me in the whole long, like, recovery, longevity, the whole thing? And so that's the first time I've spent a lot of time evaluating how I felt. And then by the middle of the race, it was like, what, I don't need to do that.

• 26:03Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 26:03Speaker 01

  Just go back to what works.

• 26:04Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. And, and around this moment, like, what's going on in your head, Josh? As you're watching this unfold?

• 26:11Speaker 02

  Honestly, I couldn't believe it. I mean, I, it does a story to tell and she'll tell the whole story at some point. But I'll say this, since I've been working with her, I've, I'm, I'm an eternal optimist. I always think, hey, she's put in the work, she's super solid, she always has a shot to win. The only, there's only been two races that we went to that I'm like, she's probably not breaking the tape. And one was Berlin in, in 2013, we decided to go there because this was after her femoral stress fracture that she had at the London Games. And it was a comeback race. And it was like, hey, let's just go, let's run under 230, just get one under our belt. So that one was just like, hey, let's just put it in the fairway. And this was another one because of, you know, since really last summer.

• 26:56Speaker 02

  It was, it was a rough year and she'd had some good days and some bad days and some zeros. And I just thought, this won't be one where she wins. I mean, it's.

• 27:10Speaker 01

  Totally, totally fair.

• 27:11Speaker 02

  Just, just, just being objective. I mean.

• 27:14Rich Roll?

  How dare you?

• 27:16Speaker 02

  I know, it's like.

• 27:17Speaker 01

  You're fired.

• 27:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. See you guys. No, but it was, I was, I was, I was in disbelief what I was seeing on TV. And my wife's in there and my buddy Ben is in there, a coach that I work with because he wanted to hear as well. And I had the NBC Gold on my laptop and I had the local coverage there. And one goes commercial, I'm listening to the other one, you know, and I'm watching this going. This is amazing. And it wasn't, it was just, I couldn't believe how good she looked. And she had had some good days in training, you know, as you do, but if it was last year, last year going in,

• 27:57Speaker 02

  her buildup was spot on. I thought this doesn't go when, does can win. This time I was like, well, we'll see.

• 28:08Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 28:09Speaker 02

  And I was just surprised that that she looked so good. She was popping off the ground and everyone else was.

• 28:15Rich Roll?

  Starting to fall apart.

• 28:16Speaker 02

  Right, totally fall apart. When, when you dropped, she dropped the whole group. And then she kind of like looked back and you see her look back and it was like.

• 28:25Rich Roll?

  Like confused.

• 28:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then she just kept going and it was like, dude, this, this might be her day.

• 28:32Rich Roll?

  How much of that do you think does is, is being able to kind of stay present and have your mental focus, super attuned versus just the physical challenges?

• 28:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so much of it's mental. And you can see it in the first half of the race where I'm doing all these things that I wouldn't typically do because of how I feel and I'm worried about that.

• 28:56Rich Roll?

  Right. If you felt great, you wouldn't.

• 28:58Speaker 01

  You don't help people.

• 29:00Rich Roll?

  They're on their own. Yeah.

• 29:03Speaker 01

  But I, and I think that helping people is removed me from thinking about myself and how I felt. And this is hard. And it was like, let me just do this task and you become task oriented and then you have a little bit of success. Okay. I got Shalene to the group. That was a win for the day. And you forget about the bigger picture and you just stay in the moment and do the thing in the moment. And as I started to do that and just focus on the moment I was in, not what was ahead and how much was left and how bad I felt and how windy or rainy it was.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  That's when I started getting into a rhythm. I never felt great, but I just, it didn't matter anymore.

• 29:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Like taking that focus off of yourself, I would imagine sort of releases the pressure a little bit too.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:49Rich Roll?

  Right. And then, and maybe there's a little bit of a greater relaxation where you can kind of settle into it and you're not really thinking about you and what you're going to do. And then suddenly everyone's falling off the back and you're like, oh.

• 30:04Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 30:05Rich Roll?

  So it was kind of at mile 22, right, where you just you took the lead?

• 30:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it was 22 and Daske, we closed down the group on Daske and Chesher from Kenya was a little bit in front of me. I think she held the lead for about three minutes.

• 30:25Speaker 01

  And then I passed her and I just felt like if I was going to pass her,

• 30:30Speaker 01

  I had to go from there in just because the experience in 2011, I was like, you have to race from here and you have to race hard and I don't want to be in a sprint finish on Boylston, so I'm gonna start pressing now, yeah.

• 30:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, 2011, you lost by two seconds or something like that?

• 30:47Speaker 01

  Two seconds, yeah.

• 30:48Rich Roll?

  So is that going through your mind, I would imagine too, right?

• 30:51Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 30:52Rich Roll?

  And and forgive me if this is an ignorant question, but when you when you take the lead, do you know that you're in the lead or are you still like, is there somebody else still up there? Like, how do you have that kind of clarity?

• 31:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I knew I was in the lead. I didn't know what was really going on behind me and like, okay, we passed Daske and I think she's going the wrong way. Like, she's not going to come back on me, but you know, I'm definitely slowing down. I can tell in my cadence and pace, like, I just feel like I'm running really slow. So I'm also thinking it's just a matter of time before someone who's paced this better comes charging by me. And and then I also wasn't sure if Chesher was able to respond. I kind of just thought she was gonna sit on me and wait for the kick.

• 31:38Rich Roll?

  Do you like turn around and check on that? Or is it that's not like you just keep your eyes going forward?

• 31:45Speaker 01

  I I didn't look. I just kind of wanted that in my head that I was in a really intense race so that I would keep my foot on the gas.

• 31:54Rich Roll?

  And how much does the crowd kind of contribute to the energy?

• 31:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's in Boston, it's amazing. They know when an American's in front and they're out there cheering no matter what, but when it's, you know, an American, you can feel it along the course and you know, the crowds are a little lighter because of the weather, but it was still pretty, pretty unreal.

• 32:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And and Josh, what are you, when she takes the lead? What's going on with you?

• 32:22Speaker 02

  I just thought, I hope that those early water stations, elite fluid stations that she skipped, don't come back to bite her. This is the thing. She's a consummate pro. And I think something, a decision she made before the gun even went off that morning paid huge dividends. And she was, she's at the church there at the start in Hopkington, and all the athletes are going out and they're coming back in and they're soaked and they're freezing and they're shivering. And she decided not to warm up.

• 32:48Rich Roll?

  Right. I read that. And I was like, how do you not warm up?

• 32:51Speaker 02

  Well, I think we were

• 32:52Rich Roll?

  The first 10 miles.

• 32:53Speaker 02

  Well, and that, and that was part of the conversation the night before was it's gonna be slow. No one, it's gonna be a race to the back. That's what we thought. The pack's gonna go out and everyone's gonna be a race to the back. It's a 30 mile an hour headwinds. It gets up to over 30 miles an hour. I mean, we walked out that morning and it was literally funny. I mean, I'm walking her from the photo off to the bus. And I have, I have my padre hat on and, and the hood and the hood flies off and the hat almost goes and she just starts laughing like, this is, it was something out of central casting. I mean, literally the, the rain, it's like this, just dumping, like someone's dumping buckets. And it was like sideways. It's one of those things, if they did it on a set, they'd be like, that's too much. No one's, yeah, it was funny. And she started laughing

• 33:36Speaker 02

  and just, oh, didn't see this coming at all. Like, cause we had talked about it over the night before. But that was the thing. We thought the start was just gonna be a race to the, race to the back. And it was, no one's gonna wanna lead this start to finish and go. Everyone's just gonna be talking in. And so she didn't warm up, but she thought the early miles, this, this would be a great time to warm up. This will be fantastic. And it wasn't that way. They kind of pressed, but she was dry. And she wore her Brooks jacket and it was honestly, she, the clothing she chose was perfect. And she stayed dry. She had a hat on and then she pulled out her little ear headband thing right before the start and kept it dry. So I think a lot of that and something that the reason

• 34:19Speaker 02

  why a lot of athletes are having a hard time recovering now was you're burning through so much glycogen just to keep your core temperature up.

• 34:25Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 34:26Speaker 02

  And so you're not running that fast. You do have a headwind, but you're, you're shivering. I mean, you could see people in the pack watching it. I had other athletes. I'm like, she's really cold. I can tell.

• 34:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 34:35Speaker 02

  And it's Dez was very, very smart, but when she she had done all this helping and Shalane and Molly and kind of skipped some bottles, which is not Dez. I mean, she's the one that grabs her Nathan bottle and runs with it for a mile until it's gone. I mean, it's not she it's, you know, four to eight ounces, depending on how hot it is and she has her stuff and she we drink it to the end. It's not like, oh, if I'm thirsty or whatever, it's this is what you need for this five K and having getting the blood sugar up, all of it. It's she's she's a pro, but she had skipped some some early and I'm like, well, you know, it's probably it's gonna be one of those days. And then she's in the front and I'm thinking about all these things going.

• 35:18Rich Roll?

  Like if she cramps up.

• 35:21Speaker 02

  Something, but I was just like, okay, let's go, you know, and it was I I was tempering my expectations. So it's like the thing that we've talked about over burgers and beers and a hundred times, like you're gonna have your day. This is gonna be amazing. And someday it's gonna be you. And you know, it's like you start reflecting back on the London Olympics and sitting there at the Team USA house and we're all we all have the thousand mile stare. Like you had to drop out.

• 35:49Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 35:50Speaker 02

  Maybe.

• 35:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 35:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it's this like bittersweet thing. You're you've accomplished this big goal and now it's it's just this is it like and then the Rio and then it's last summer and it's like this roller coaster thing. You dream about this moment. So I wasn't letting myself believe yet that today was her day.

• 36:09Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 36:10Speaker 02

  Dez is gonna be the Boston Marathon champion and that's forever. I mean, it it's I couldn't allow myself to go there yet. I was hopeful and I was praying and I was like, please let this be the day. But I wasn't I hadn't committed there yet.

• 36:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 36:25Speaker 02

  Cause I was like, I'm just gonna get crushed. My soul's.

• 36:27Rich Roll?

  Also, I mean, with with that kind of win, it really is almost like a cycling race where and and you're sacrificing yourself on the front, the energy output.

• 36:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:37Rich Roll?

  That you're expending is is so much more significant than the people that you're pulling. So you're actually doing more work than everyone else. And the question becomes like, okay, are you gonna when is this gonna, you know, run out? When are you gonna run out of gas?

• 36:50Speaker 01

  Right. No, that's I ran the last several miles just in fear. And I didn't look back because I didn't, you know, I wanted to feel like I was in a race, but it was also like I knew I skimped on those early bottles and. When you hit the wall in the marathon, it's not like losing 20 seconds a mile. It's a minute and 20 seconds a mile. Like you're done. You're not responding. You're not, you know, coming back. And so I was riding the line of like, am I going too deep in the well?

• 37:23Speaker 01

  How do my legs feel? A little bit shaky? Like, when am I crossing over into this? Like, I'm doing the death march home. And yeah, I was afraid for that moment because I just thought it was inevitable after the things I did early.

• 37:38Rich Roll?

  And, and you were, you, at one moment, you were near the end, you were gonna try to take your jacket off, right?

• 37:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it was 25.5, you go under a overpass. And I was like, I'll, I'll take the jacket off. And you can see me fidget with it and I kind of bite it. My hands were too cold. I was like, if somebody passes me because I'm playing with my jacket, and it's gonna, I'll be so mad at myself forever if I lose the Boston Marathon. Because I wanted a better winner's picture. Like, that would be ridiculous.

• 38:06Speaker 02

  The single shot versus the back shot.

• 38:08Speaker 01

  I wanted it in the jersey.

• 38:11Rich Roll?

  The image that will live in infamy forever, right? You doing something silly.

• 38:16Speaker 01

  There's the person you celebrated too early, then there's the person who tried to get a better finishing picture. Like, that would be horrible.

• 38:22Rich Roll?

  All right. So, so walk me through like crossing that finish line. I mean, what is that experience like?

• 38:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. Right on here for left on Boylston. I made the left and it was like the heavens just opened up and the wind gusted even harder. And I think I laughed. Like, someone asked me the other day, did you smile when you turned onto Boylston? I think I did because it was like, again, it was just comical how bad the weather was. And it was like, there's 600 meters to go and I'm gonna get one last like, rah, from Mother Nature.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  And I still wasn't sure I had it in the bag, so I felt like I just needed to run strong and be ready to respond if someone was on me. So that's how I ran that stretch. And when I got past the Lennox Hotel, I think that's where I got outkicked in 2011. That's when I was like, okay, I think, I think I got this.

• 39:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 39:18Speaker 01

  And then I saw Tom Grill of the BAA did like a fist pump and you could start hearing the loud them announcing like, this is Deserlin and she's going to be your Boston champion. And I was like, okay, no one's, I got it. And that's when I was able to celebrate. So it was a couple strides from the line. And I was in disbelief. I was just, this can't be real. And it was all this stuff we talked about, you know, it just seemed like it was not going to be my year.

• 39:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's what makes it so beautiful and poetic that you had sacrificed yourself twice. You had thought like, this is, you know, if anything, I'm going to help these other women. And then for it all to switch and make it your day is just something really amazing.

• 40:10Rich Roll?

  So, so Josh, you, you sort of have this famous embrace with Dez at the finish line, right? Like beating Ryan.

• 40:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, here's the thing. She cross, go ahead.

• 40:24Rich Roll?

  No, no, no.

• 40:25Speaker 02

  Okay, so she crosses and then Joni's there. And I mean, we're all, we're there and everyone's, we're friends with everyone in Boston. We go there every year. We, not just in the spring, we're doing other things. We, the servers at the hotel know us. It's, it's like family. So everyone in the BAA is there and they're like grabbing my shoulder like, I think it's gonna happen. And like, they told us we have to, you know, just be professional, but I don't care. I just, I got it. I loved Dez. And we're all there and everyone's so excited. And she crosses line and Joni, she's wearing the hood and, you know, all black and goes and hugs her. And I was, I was like waiting and we were

• 41:07Speaker 02

  waiting, but Ryan and I had been there like, this is, this is gonna happen. And we had been like hugging and doing whatever, like just waiting for her to come through.

• 41:14Rich Roll?

  And we should say, just for people that are listening, Ryan is Dez's husband.

• 41:17Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. Yeah. So, yeah, Ryan Linden. Great dude. So we're there.

• 41:24Speaker 02

  Joni hugs her and then it was just pure emotion and we just ran out and hugged and if I could go back, I would acquiesce and give them like a 10 second, five second, I don't know, something at least like so there could be a photo of them. Split second. Yeah, like anything, but we just, I, I was kind of like stepping out and I was like, Ryan, Ryan, let's go, let's go. Like this is like, this is the time to do it. And we just ran out and uh, the first thing Dez said was, I can't believe that just happened. And it was like, neither can we. Like it was, it was. And I think I said you were in this or something and I don't know. It was just, I was crying like a baby and it was,

• 42:04Speaker 02

  I know the work that it takes. I was runner, you know, and that whole thing. And these are the things you dream about. These are the things that get you out of bed at 5am when the alarm goes off and it's dark outside and it's, you don't want to go and do the run before the travel schedule, but you go out and you get your 12 miles in and it's this dream of one day, it's all going to come together and it's going to be my day. It's all of these things that you've seen in your mind's eye again and again and again and again. And you want that so bad. And I've never, I've never been so excited for someone else to do anything. My brother sent me a text. He's like, dude, that's a happy year, I've been in your life.

• 42:47Speaker 02

  I'm like, yeah, he's like, dude, you've never cried like that in your entire life. I, I hadn't cried since my, my eight, 18 month old was born. Like before that, and I was just overcome with uh, so much joy and happiness and because it was a sho- it was a shock too. So the, the difference with like a child's birth, it's, it's cool and it's great. You know what's coming. It's coming. You know, you know very well. Particularly the last month. It's like, it's all you hear about. Like get this baby out of me. I'm so big. And it's this thing that you can prepare for. This, I, I was not prepared for this. I mean, it was just this awesome uh, moment where Dez had done the thing. Uh huh.

• 43:28Speaker 02

  And she got it done and she put this stamp on her career and she'd been, you know, second in Chicago in 2010 because of subsequent disqualifications. And then her real coming out party was at Boston in 2011, the sprint finish with Caroline Colau. And it really like put her on the map. And but then it's since that time, that's after, right after that is when we started working together and it's like, you're going to get to the mountaintop and it's. You have to believe that as an athlete, that it's all gonna come together, that, I mean, does, has said it a hundred times, but sport isn't always fair. We all work very hard and you hope you get that day where it all comes together and you get this massive ROI on your

• 44:08Speaker 02

  lifetime of work. And she did it. And I'm just like.

• 44:16Rich Roll?

  Under the craziest of circumstances. Like, if you had to script that moment, as somebody who's been, you know, chasing this dream for so long and, you know, had come so close so many times and, you know, was climbing that mountain and just, you know, like Sisyphus, pushing that rock up the mountain, time and time again. I mean, ultimately for it to materialize in such a, such a strange but beautiful way. I mean, you couldn't, you couldn't hope for anything better than that.

• 44:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I mean, I said it after the race and still applies. It's storybook, really is. It's fairy tale stuff and, but real life.

• 44:56Rich Roll?

  I mean, what is it, you know, it's been, you know, there's been a number of weeks that have passed. Do you have greater, some objectivity on it or a little more perspective now? Like, what does it mean to you?

• 45:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's the thing that I can say, everything was worth it. All the work was worth it. You know, you dream of it and you put in the hours, you put in the time. Again, there's no, there's no guarantee. Everybody works hard. But you believe in yourself and you buy into this idea every time you line up for a major. I mean, again, there's been twice where I thought, not, not gonna happen for me this time. But since 2011, moving forward, if I start a marathon, it's, I'm there to try and win. Like, I believe I can win. I've been preparing the last three months.

• 45:45Speaker 01

  And saying, "I'm going to be a Boston Marathon champion." So what does a champion do? And you bring that attitude to every day. You act as if you're already there. And then if it doesn't happen, you have to deal with the aftermath and regroup and then buy into yourself again and keep doing that and not give up hope. And so it's a really hard thing to do and there's no guarantees. But yeah, it makes all of that worth it.

• 46:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think if there's anything, if there's like a word that really kind of captures your career, it's persistence, right? You've got this phrase, "Keep showing up," right? You trademarked it, which is genius.

• 46:27Speaker 01

  It's in the works.

• 46:29Rich Roll?

  And I have my computer here because I wanted to read this tweet that you had pinned, which is, you posted this on March 5th. "Some days, it just flows and I feel like I'm born to do this. Other days, it feels like I'm trudging through hell. Every day, I make the choice to show up and see what I've got and try to be better. My advice: Keep showing up." So can you expound on that a little bit? Because I think that's applicable to anyone and everyone who's chasing a goal or a dream.

• 47:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, the last 10 months prior to this were really tough and it was as simple as go out for a run. And don't skip the job just because you think it might go a certain way or you don't feel good. Just go and see. And most of the time, you get out the door and it goes better than you thought. But if you don't do it at all, like you have no chance of getting better. It's a zero. You just look at it with some kind of regret, you know? So there was a lot of days where I didn't want to get out the door in the past couple of months and it was just show up, just try, just see. And every time I've done that, you know, it's the thing we say,

• 47:48Speaker 01

  there's no one comes back from a run and says, "I wish I hadn't done that."

• 47:51Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 47:52Speaker 01

  You know, and so for me, it was just give yourself a chance. Just try, just start. And it's not always going to go your way, but you don't know unless you show up.

• 48:03Rich Roll?

  And is that something that that you apply in other areas of your life?

• 48:07Speaker 01

  I try to. Yeah, I mean, you know, as a friend and as a wife and all of that, even personal relationships. It's just be there for people, um, you know, try and be a good wife. And some days it's hard. But you show up and you do the best you can. And that's how you get better. That's how you learn and it's okay to fail. Just try again the next day.

• 48:31Rich Roll?

  What is your relationship with failure? Or how do you think about failure?

• 48:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I I'm actually incredibly comfortable with it. Um, I talk about it quite often. Last year was the big thing where I was like, I'm, you know, trying to win the Boston Marathon. I put it out there very publicly. And, um, afterwards it didn't happen. I said, you know, I failed, but that's okay. And people are like, you didn't fail. You were amazing, this and that. And I was like, no, it's like, I wanted to do this thing and I failed to do it. That's I failed. But you don't. Failure is an action. It's not an identity. We do it all the time. And if you learn from it, you get better and that's how you grow. So I think being super afraid of failure, um,

• 49:13Speaker 01

  you kind of miss the point. Like, those are the lessons. That's where you learn the most. Like, you fail your way to success.

• 49:18Rich Roll?

  I feel like we need a different word. Like, failure has such a negative connotation and it scares us.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:25Rich Roll?

  If we could come up with a new word for it that we're comfortable with, then maybe we'd be more willing to put ourselves on the line.

• 49:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:33Rich Roll?

  Because we're so afraid of suffering the consequences of what we consider to be failure and then beat ourselves up. But that prevents us from the trying.

• 49:41Speaker 01

  Right, stepping out and giving it a go.

• 49:44Rich Roll?

  But now that you've won and there's all this attention on you and you're throwing baseballs everywhere. Like, what is, how do you? Yeah, how do you? I mean, it's a it's a different experience now for you, right? Like, do you feel like, is there, you feel like everybody's eyeballs are on you? Or is there like a different kind of pressure that you carry with yourself? Like, how do you? It's a new phase, right?

• 50:06Speaker 01

  It is.

• 50:07Rich Roll?

  It probably requires a little growth to acclimate to.

• 50:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, I honestly haven't really even processed that yet. Like, what's next and how I'm gonna, you know, wrap my mind around it. But, um, yeah, I mean, I'm just kind of riding the high right now.

• 50:21Rich Roll?

  So you don't know, like you have an idea of what another race would be or what's the next big goal or challenge?

• 50:28Speaker 01

  Well, I do feel like there's been a huge sense of relief. Like I felt like I needed this highlight on my resume and I have it now, which is great. But now I can just pick things that I'm really excited about and find that like this race, it's been the thing driving me for so long. So I do, there'll be that like post marathon lull because it's like, well, what is going to get me that excited? What's going to get me out the door now? And so I want to find a race that really speaks to me that way. And I'll most likely do a fall marathon. So that's probably in the works and go from there. Just I get to be really picky from here on, here on out and just do the stuff that I'm really passionate about.

• 51:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And do you, do you, do you sense that there's an additional pressure on you now to sort of hold that line being the Boston victor? Or do you try to not think about that?

• 51:22Speaker 01

  There, there might be. I just don't notice it.

• 51:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's good. That's super healthy.

• 51:28Speaker 01

  I think I'm just gonna go out and keep doing me and I don't see any big change. I think the American women as a whole are so strong right now that I won't be surprised if I'm viewed as an underdog in the future still. Because that's just kind of been what like my role in this sport is the underdog.

• 51:49Rich Roll?

  Well, the American women marathoners are certainly having a moment right now. I mean, it's kind of amazing what's going on. So what's interesting about that is like, why, I mean, we have Shalane, you know, winning New York, now you winning Boston and a whole bunch of other outstanding performances. Sarah Hall just had an amazing run. That was like last week or something like that, two weeks ago. I mean, this is unprecedented in recent history. So like, what is going on? Like, why now? Like, what is happening that's contributing to this level of, of performance from American women marathoners?

• 52:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think we're getting more support with companies and endorsements and you can make a career out of, of running. And so that keeps people in it longer. You can develop. And I think too, people are switching to the marathon earlier. You know, it's like, it's this really great event that you can have a career in. It used to be as soon as you got Too slow for the track, then you had to go to the marathon and that was where the old slow folks went.

• 52:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 52:53Speaker 01

  Were, the marathon's gonna, it's, it's getting sexy, you know, people want to be there, um, they see the attention around this big event and they're really selling it, um, and the success is going to breed success and the more opportunities we have and the more you can make a career out of it, uh, the longer people can stay in it.

• 53:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and also to see people performing at such a high level in their mid to late 30s, I mean, you know, that's just, it's, it's amazing and that's purely a function of, of be, people being able to support themselves doing it.

• 53:22Speaker 01

  Yep, absolutely.

• 53:23Rich Roll?

  What is the role of, of your coach and, and kind of coaching in general in, in your, you know, your, your performances? Like what, how does that work for you?

• 53:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've been with the same coaches for my entire pro career and so like we got, I, I do the same basically marathon buildup every time and then as I've done more and more, I know what I need from it or what I need to tweak and so it's more of, um, a collaboration now, not like here's what you're doing and, you know, show up this day in this time and do these paces, it's like, I like, I would like that here, I would like that there, um, and it's a, it's kind of a team effort that way, I would say.

• 54:07Rich Roll?

  Has the training changed or evolved over the years or do you kind of do basically the same thing you've always been doing?

• 54:13Speaker 01

  It's very, very similar.

• 54:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 54:16Speaker 01

  And the big things that I think I do better than a number of my teammates, um, in which why I've, I believe I've had more success with the training than some other people have, um, is balancing in speed work and breaks and then marathon training and, you know, knowing you can't keep doing the same cycle over and over, you have to go back to the track or you have to get into the shorter 5K races, do some cross country, um, and it's knowing when to put those things in and tap into the strength or tap into the speed.

• 54:47Rich Roll?

  So in other words, a lot of other people aren't doing the track work and the speed work.

• 54:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:53Rich Roll?

  As much as you think they should be.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  I think people like to do what they're really good at, which makes a lot of sense, but sometimes you gotta go practice the thing that you suck at and get better at it so that it helps you. You know, with the part, the strength stuff that you're good at, or whatever it is.

• 55:07Rich Roll?

  I mean, it's interesting to hear you say that because, you know, I can understand that for sort of couch, you know, sort of couch cruiser marathoners who are just trying to break four hours or whatever. Like, they don't need to do a lot of track work, but at your level, you guys are running so fast that I would imagine everybody's at the track.

• 55:24Speaker 01

  You'd be surprised.

• 55:25Rich Roll?

  Really? Wow, that's interesting. And, and also to hear you, I mean, it sounds like you're, you're kind of a traditionalist, right? Like, okay, here's what works. This is kind of what's always worked. In an age when it seems like every month, like, there's a new thing, like, here's a new diet, or here's a new recovery tool, or here, you know, all those long runs, you don't need to do that. You should be doing this instead. Like, are you able to just tune all that out and just say, this is what works. I listen to my coach. I know what I need.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, everyone wants a hack, right? But running's always going to make you a better runner, and I just, I think it's super simple. You go out and you log the miles, and like, rest is, you know, recovery is getting good sleep, a massage, that's it. It's like, I mean, you don't have to get cute.

• 56:10Rich Roll?

  What about, like, compression socks and what are those, the Norma Tech boots and all that kind of stuff? Do you do all, like, do you do any of that kind of thing?

• 56:19Speaker 01

  Um, I'll flirt with that stuff. I mean, I don't mind the socks, especially if it's cold.

• 56:24Rich Roll?

  The track and field, they don't like, they don't like compression socks too much, right?

• 56:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, not on the track.

• 56:27Rich Roll?

  There's that great story where, like, was it Chris Lieta went out to train with you guys up in Mammoth, and he shows up in his compression socks, and you guys are laughing at him. You're like, no, real runners don't wear those.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  Are you sure they just weren't laughing at Lieta?

• 56:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah, we're just laughing at Chris. It's fine. He's a good dude.

• 56:47Rich Roll?

  And, and Josh, as, as somebody who was an extraordinary runner in your own right, 50K, was it world record or American record? American. American, does that record still stand? It does. It does? Wow, that's amazing, man. Are you able to bifurcate your role as manager from, from sort of talking to her about? Actual coaching type stuff?

• 57:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I do my best to stay in my lane, you know, and I let the coaches coach and I do, I agent, you know, so it's, uh, but certainly I do have strong opinions on, on it all, you know, and like someone like Des, I mean, we talk a lot and, you know, it's, she's not asking me for training advice, but it's like, yeah, we have discussions all the time or like maybe this product or do this, or this is what worked for me. We were, I was competing when I started representing. I mean, we both competed at the 2012 marathon trials. So it's, yeah, this is saying we were, we had mutual sponsors and this thing and we, I knew what worked for me and I knew what my

• 57:50Speaker 02

  training partners were doing and very fast people and their own Ryan, Ryan Halls and Meb and we have this group, it's, you learn anecdotally by, hey, this is what has worked here and this is what you should maybe try. And Des is, uh, Des is a student, you know, so she's always open to, I don't know how many different mixes you've had in your bottles over the years, but it's, yeah, it's, it's, but she knows what works, you know, and she goes with it. But yeah, no, I, I try and let the coaches coach.

• 58:22Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's good to have his perspective too. Like when we're filling in schedules, like what races make sense. And, you know, there's some people who say, well, it's like a jillion dollars you're doing it and, you know, do all of these races and you could sign up for something every weekend, but Josh knows that when I'm picking, it's these ones work and this is why. And like, you know, it's, we're actually, what we're really getting ready for is here. And you don't want to compromise that because of all these other things. And so it's good to have someone who's competed and knows that balance of like appearances, racing, and then the big day and how to schedule it all in.

• 59:01Rich Roll?

  And I like this idea of being in partnership with your coach, right? Because you have to take responsibility for yourself. And as somebody who's competing at such a high level for so long, like you have to really own what works for you and be in a relationship with a coach where that's functional.

• 59:16Speaker 01

  Right, yeah, it can't be one-sided. It's you telling me what to do. At this point, I've done so many segments. It's like, I know that doesn't work. You know, and they trust me enough to make those changes and say, okay, like, you do what you think is best.

• 59:33Rich Roll?

  But you moved to Michigan to be part of this team, right? The Hanson's Brooks team. And so when you're training, like, how much of it is you going out and just running by yourself versus doing it with teammates?

• 59:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's kind of evolved over the years. It was like live in the house with the group and every day 8:00 a.m., you know, we all do the same run and work out together and so on and so forth. We've had a lot of people move on to different careers. I'm obviously like one of the oldest, one of the oldest on the team. And we have a younger squad that's on the track and, you know, their long run's 10 miles and I'm doing 20. And so it doesn't quite match up as well now, but I still have teammates. And then we've also kind of have like satellite athletes who live here, here, here. We're all in the same group, but that gives me a little more freedom to say, okay, I want to spend some time in the northern part of the state

• 1:00:27Speaker 01

  and just like hole up and run and not, you know, deal with the other stuff. And so it's a little more flexibility and I can do a lot on my own now, too.

• 1:00:35Rich Roll?

  Where do you go in the northern part of the state?

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  We spend a lot of time in Charlevoix, Charlevoix and Traverse City. So we have a nice house on Lake Michigan. Yeah, it's quiet up there and get on the dirt roads and not see a car for a 20-mile run.

• 1:00:49Rich Roll?

  I, I'm originally from Michigan.

• 1:00:51Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:00:51Rich Roll?

  And all my extended family's from Michigan and we used to spend all our summers on Lake Michigan. My parents had a house near Sleeping Bear Dune.

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  Beautiful.

• 1:00:59Rich Roll?

  Near Traverse and like it's amazing training up there.

• 1:01:02Speaker 01

  It's a hidden gem, so I hope not too many people see this. And then Run over the town with training camps.

• 1:01:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, you tell people in California that it's awesome. They just laugh.

• 1:01:13Rich Roll?

  Josh, have you ever been up there? I have one time. Yeah, it's pretty beautiful up there. Yeah, it's nice. That's cool. So what about, what about Ryan, your husband? Do you ever train with him?

• 1:01:23Speaker 01

  I do, actually. We matched up really well when he was just doing marathons. And so in Chicago 2010, he had a really great segment and was ready to run 224. I had a rocky segment. It was like, I think I can run 227, 226. So we had totally different race plans. And I see him at like mile 22, he's going the wrong way. I'm running up on him and I outkicked him.

• 1:01:47Rich Roll?

  Right, you beat him by like one second.

• 1:01:49Speaker 01

  Two seconds.

• 1:01:49Rich Roll?

  Two seconds?

• 1:01:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:51Rich Roll?

  How often do you remind him of that?

• 1:01:52Speaker 01

  I hate you. Like, but you love me.

• 1:01:56Rich Roll?

  So you got, so you'll go out and train with him a little bit?

• 1:01:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's moved into the Ironman world. So that's his thing and, but he can still run with me.

• 1:02:04Rich Roll?

  Right. And, and on your big weeks, like what's the mileage look like?

• 1:02:09Speaker 01

  I'll get up to around 130.

• 1:02:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:11Speaker 01

  A real big week, yeah.

• 1:02:12Rich Roll?

  That's a lot.

• 1:02:13Speaker 01

  It's a lot of time.

• 1:02:14Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. Have you ever, so you had the injury in London, right? But other than that, have you been able to avoid big injuries?

• 1:02:22Speaker 01

  That's the biggest and I've had like little niggles here and there. Stuff that I'll catch early and it's like, I'll take a couple of weeks off and you get to go. So I've been very lucky.

• 1:02:33Rich Roll?

  Right. What, uh, what scares you? What's out there that like freaks you out?

• 1:02:41Speaker 01

  Like physically or like, like the fear of not knowing what's next?

• 1:02:46Rich Roll?

  Uh, I guess anything. I mean, on the one level, like, is there an event that you're really intimidated by? That you're scared to do? And then also just life stuff?

• 1:02:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, I'm always intrigued by the Ironman. Like, like switching over, you know?

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  But I'm a sinker. I go out for the swim and just go vroom.

• 1:03:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you just get a thick wet suit.

• 1:03:12Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:03:12Rich Roll?

  They make it easy.

• 1:03:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, I, like, you watch the, they put together the video at the end. It's all inspirational. I get the awards and you're like, this is beautiful. These people are so tough and like, I want to do that. And then I see my husband's like, training schedule and I'm like, that's horrible. There's no way.

• 1:03:29Rich Roll?

  Well, they, they, I mean, the NBC coverage is so beautifully put together. It, it, it looks like just a big romance.

• 1:03:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:38Rich Roll?

  Um, the reality of it, I think, is a little bit different. Well, that's interesting. Maybe a little post-career Ironman experience.

• 1:03:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You get to wear compression socks.

• 1:03:48Speaker 01

  That's right. That's why. It's more for the fashion.

• 1:03:52Rich Roll?

  Um, for, there's a lot of like, you know, amateur athletes that listen to this show. So I thought it'd be interesting to share like some insights. As somebody who's been around the sport for so long, I'm sure you see, because what you do is, it's very rare in the sense that you're participating in the same event with all the amateurs, right? As a professional, like, that only exists in a few sports, like triathlon and, and, and running. What are the things that you see, if you do, like, that you see amateur athletes doing where you're like, ugh, what are they doing? Don't they know? Like, if they just did this, it would be so much easier and better?

• 1:04:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I think it goes back to the hacks. Like, everyone wants the quickest way to the PR and they want the fastest shoes or the lightest this. Um, I'm not going to pick on the triathletes, but like the gear.

• 1:04:40Rich Roll?

  You can pick on them.

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  Okay, I'm going to pick on the tri. No. The gear is like huge. It's like, let me shave something here. Let me lose a couple of pounds there. And, um, like, just train. Like, it's so simple, especially, I'm back to running. It's just, it's right foot, left foot, right foot, left foot, repeat. We all do it. Um, put in the time, do the work, and you're going to see the improvements. Don't try to do the shortcut. Just expect for it to take some time.

• 1:05:05Rich Roll?

  Do the work, man. Most people, they, they want to talk about the, the shoes and the watch and the heart rate monitor and all that kind of stuff. And it's like, just go out and do it, right?

• 1:05:21Rich Roll?

  When you're at a race, like is there other specific things that you see people doing? Like, why are they going out and running really hard the day before the race? And you know, things like that?

• 1:05:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, see a lot of that for sure. Um, I don't know, maybe expo stuff, like looking for something new at the expo to help them on race day. And you're like, no, don't, nothing new, nothing new today. Use that for the next one. Um, yeah, I think that's, I don't know, most people have it pretty dialed, but a Boston, I mean, you get to a Boston and those people are pros, you know? They're like the best of that.

• 1:05:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:55Speaker 01

  Same thing with like a Kona, like they're pretty good. They know what they're doing for the most part.

• 1:06:00Rich Roll?

  Do you have like, um, any kind of rituals around your mental preparation? Do you do visualization or do you, when you're running, are you, you know, sort of rehearsing what it's going to be like?

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I, it's not like a scheduled or planned thing, but I think I just naturally do that. Like we all get out in the middle of a run and you're picturing breaking the tape. Um, but not like a routine every week where I go into it and like have to do this or that. But, and then pre-race, it's the same thing. I, um, I'll write a race plan, like an actual physical race plan, uh, pen and paper and write out how I see the day going and the things, um, you know, it's based on what I can do, not, you know, what people around me are doing. So like control the controllables and I write it out on a piece of paper and then I have this thing to look at afterwards and say, oh, I, I didn't do that or I did do this.

• 1:06:53Speaker 01

  And, um, also when you're on the course, it's, uh, instead of evaluating how you're feeling, you just go, what's next on the plan? Like, what am I supposed to do next? So it takes away that bargaining moment where you're like, well, I feel bad, I should slow down. It's just, uh, you know, bargain because you have the next thing on your plan to do.

• 1:07:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think I read that, that when you, the first time you did Boston, when you, when you lost by two seconds, you said like, that was the first time that you had lost it because you had rehearsed it so frequently in your mind, winning it, that you were like, wait, no, this is.

• 1:07:25Speaker 01

  I'm supposed to win. Yeah, heartbreaking.

• 1:07:29Rich Roll?

  But I think that, that, you know, what I take away from that, what you just said. Is this idea that, that it goes back to how you, how you're feeling versus how you're actually doing, right? Somebody who's not as mentally tough or as mentally well rehearsed, when they don't feel well, or they're like, I'm off my game, that can just crack them, right? And then the race is over. But to understand like, okay, I don't feel good now, but you know, there's a long way to go and many things can change to be able to stay present, you know, and focused on, on the bigger goal. I mean, I think what, what you experienced in Boston is a perfect testament to that.

• 1:08:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's, it's such a long race. There's so many ups and downs that you're going to feel a million, a million different ways. And if you let the first bump in the road derail you, I mean, a long run home because you'll pull out of it and you'll be in a slump again. And it's just how those races go.

• 1:08:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah. What, uh, what, what do you think is driving you? Like what's, where does the motivation come? Like what's, what's the internal engine that's propelling you through this adventure?

• 1:08:39Speaker 01

  I've always been motivated to find out how good I can be, you know? And I want to know how fast I can run and how well I can compete. And that's why I go to the biggest races instead of trying to win the smaller race. Like those big races push you because there's the best people there. And if you want to find out how good you can be, you have to line up with people who can pull you to that spot. And, um, you know, and that's making the decisions to show up every day is I want to look at the zero in the logbook and go, well, now there's a question, like I didn't do all the work. So what if you had, how good could you be?

• 1:09:22Speaker 01

  Um, and so it's, it's just finding out what I've got and. How far I can take myself in the sport.

• 1:09:27Rich Roll?

  So it's really internal.

• 1:09:29Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:09:29Rich Roll?

  It's you measuring yourself against yourself.

• 1:09:31Speaker 01

  Yep, 100%.

• 1:09:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:33Rich Roll?

  And how do you maintain that when there's, like when you're in a race and you're a gamer?

• 1:09:40Rich Roll?

  How do you stay within yourself when there's all the jockeying with the other athletes? Like, do you let go of that and you're just racing? Or are you still like, okay, I have my plan. I gotta stick to my plan?

• 1:09:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's balancing the two and knowing when it's appropriate to race, what moves are appropriate to respond to, what's totally out of your wheelhouse. And that's all, you know, Josh always says, the first 20 with your head, the last six miles with your heart. And, you know, that first 20 miles, you have to make race decisions based on your ability and everything you've seen in the preparation and know when to respond and when not. And then the last 10K, you just go from the heart. You know, respond to whatever you can respond to, dig as deep as you can dig.

• 1:10:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's just, I feel like, a lifetime of practice racing.

• 1:10:35Rich Roll?

  Right. Josh, if I had to ask you, which I'm going to ask you.

• 1:10:41Speaker 02

  Hypothetically.

• 1:10:42Rich Roll?

  What, what makes, what makes Dez great? Like, what is it about Dez that, that maybe people don't, don't really understand?

• 1:10:52Speaker 02

  I think, well, one, it's who she is outside of running. She does, she has been on this quest to find out how good she can be. And the race isn't the verdict on her. I think she has very good balance for someone at her level. A lot of, a lot of athletes at, at her level, and when I was competing, they take their question, you know, do I have what it takes to their job, to their performance? Every single bad workout, they're crushed. You can't talk to them. It's, man, I hope the next workout goes well so I can talk to this guy. And, or I hope the race goes well so we can still go out and have a good meal after. And is she disappointed after London and formal stress fracture and the whole?

• 1:11:35Speaker 02

  Yes, sure. It's like you want them to care, but she does have this balance. And she never lets herself sulk.

• 1:11:44Speaker 02

  Too long, you know, I think the last year was probably the toughest that I've ever experienced with any athlete, um, just the stuff she was going through and the ups and downs, but on race day, outside of that, between the curbs, she is so tough. She, she talked about the last 10K, running it with your heart. She knows how to put herself into the pain cave and be tougher than she's ever been physically. She'd be stronger than she's ever been mentally and she's going to give herself every chance to succeed. She does a fantastic job of race day execution.

• 1:12:25Speaker 02

  That's the thing, a lot of athletes, they do the same buildup amateurs all the way up to the pros. You look at it and then they totally do not execute on race day. And that's the thing, you look at it and you know, I do a lot of announcing for NBC and whatever, and we go to these races and you hear these pre-race comments and the guys are like, well, I just plan on going through the half in 6230 and I'll slow up on the back half, but I'm pretty sure that I can still PR. And it's like, the data doesn't show that, like you want to run even, there's no such thing as banking time in the marathon. If, if you want to run three hours, being five minutes ahead of pace at halfway is not awesome. Like that's, that's bad. You want to, you want to run even, the fastest times in history are even are negative splits.

• 1:13:04Speaker 02

  Second half faster does, does not mess up the race day execution and typically, you know, it's like, we talk about the missing bottles and I mean, that's the thing, it was like, that was the surprising part, the Shalane part. I was like, ah, well, that's cute or whatever, but the missing bottles, I'm like, yeah, well, all right.

• 1:13:23Rich Roll?

  I don't know, there was nothing about that race that I think was about a race execution plan, right?

• 1:13:28Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:13:28Rich Roll?

  From the minute you start, no warm up, no.

• 1:13:30Speaker 02

  No, I mean, it, it was a total anomaly. I mean, it's just, you're, this is not Dez, but she executes on race day really well. And obviously it worked out, you know, in Boston.

• 1:13:43Rich Roll?

  Is there anything like with this white hot spotlight on you right now and you having to run around and do all kinds of interviews and stuff like that? Is there any part of you, Dez, that you feel like is, is being missed or misinterpreted? Or, or the people, like people are, are not understanding about this whole thing or you in general?

• 1:14:01Speaker 01

  No, I mean, I, I think I'm, have always been very open and honest and genuine. And so I feel like it's always been received correctly.

• 1:14:13Speaker 01

  I don't know, Josh. What do you think?

• 1:14:16Speaker 02

  Well, okay, this is the part of the podcast.

• 1:14:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's your moment, go.

• 1:14:22Speaker 02

  The cool thing about Dez is she is super comfortable in her own skin. And she's not the one that gets all make up and stuff when she goes to run or to an appearance or whatever. And we go to billboards and like, yeah, you have 45 minutes scheduled for hair and makeup. And she's like, what are they gonna do for 45 minutes? You know, and she looked beautiful and it was amazing. And but everyone was like, oh, my gosh, she looks amazing, you know, but it's it's because this is her. This she's totally comfortable in her own skin and she speaks her mind and she always has. And it's what makes her endearing. And it's why people, what you see is what you get. There's Dez doesn't pull any punches and she's not putting out the facade. And this, it's, oh, this is who I need to be on social or whatever. And this highlight reel of my life. And it's, this is, this

• 1:15:06Speaker 02

  is what's going on. It's her pinned tweet. It's, this is me being honest. And this is who I am. And so there's, with a lot of people is like, well, there's a lot you don't know, but I can't talk about it. You know, but with her, there's, it's, she is super comfortable in her own skin. And that's what makes her so cool. And that's why everybody loves her.

• 1:15:22Speaker 01

  I just wanted to pat on the back. Thanks.

• 1:15:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know. Yeah, this is like a big love affair happening here. So you guys were in San Diego yesterday.

• 1:15:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:31Rich Roll?

  Right. And you did this run rock and roll race. And I saw the tweets, there was like an active shooter. So what was going, what happened?

• 1:15:42Speaker 01

  It was pretty unclear. Like, it was, here's this thing going on by the marathon. And then as people get more information, it's like, it wasn't at the marathon, it wasn't towards the marathon, it was near the marathon, but just in case. And so I don't even, it was like.

• 1:15:57Speaker 02

  They shut down the course. They, we went to get brunch, it's really great place. And we had these massive omelets and it was super. And we're walking back and we get back to the West End. And we see all of these ambulances, like, it was like six of them lined up. And I'm going. What's going on? We're not near the race course. And I asked Tara Welling, pro that was there that had raced. I said, what's going on? She said, well, there's an active shooter situation. I'm like, what? I'm like, you, I said, I said, what are you doing? So I'm waiting for my mom. I said, you need to wait inside.

• 1:16:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:26Speaker 02

  Like have her text you. Like, I was, I was surprised they didn't have staff saying everyone inside. I mean, it was, we didn't know what was going on. So immediately, we were gonna go take a nap. But we went up to the bar. We're like, can you turn on the local news? And we're trying to find it on Twitter and we're looking. I'm like, I'm just gonna say everyone should go inside. Like, I, I don't know. And we put a link, the NBC San Diego link was, this is gonna be updated. But apparently, someone, there was an incident, and then they shut down the race course. And, because, I mean, it's,

• 1:16:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you don't know.

• 1:16:53Speaker 02

  You don't know.

• 1:16:54Rich Roll?

  I mean, it turned out that it was an altercation that had nothing to do with the race, right? But like, how, you know, the chaos that can ensue in the midst of that. And, and, you know, being, being like, Boston, were you guys in Boston? Was that one of the years that you raced?

• 1:17:07Speaker 01

  I didn't race that year. I, um,

• 1:17:08Rich Roll?

  Were you there, Josh?

• 1:17:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was doing coverage.

• 1:17:11Rich Roll?

  Right. And so the kind of, um, you know, residual experience of having been, been there when that happened. I would, and when, when something like that occurs, you're like,

• 1:17:22Speaker 01

  That's the thing is,

• 1:17:23Rich Roll?

  You go to DEF CON 5.

• 1:17:24Speaker 01

  Everyone's trying to get the news, but no one has the news. And you don't know what to believe, or what to, like, put out there, if it's gonna create more fear. It's just like, let's pause and like, figure out what's really going on. But also, you don't want people being set up to be in a really horrible position. So,

• 1:17:45Speaker 02

  If you can get someone out of harms way, then you do it. But there is this social media 24 hour news cycle. People want to be first rather than right. And so there is this balance of like, is this legit? Is what, like, okay, this is confirmed. And, okay, we should send something out. But it's, uh, yeah, you just pray to God that nothing like that ever happens again at a race.

• 1:18:08Rich Roll?

  Right. What, in, in Boston this year, I mean, what is it like around the finish line? Do they have added security and all that kind of thing? Or?

• 1:18:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I, we noticed it the year after was totally different world. And I think,

• 1:18:24Speaker 01

  They have it down so well. Um, Dave McGilvery and his team and the BAA. They're pros. They've been doing this for so long. And I think the response on that day was great. You know, it was just a horrible thing, but they handled it very well. And then they got even better. So it's different, but I don't ever feel uncomfortable out there.

• 1:18:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's such a crazy thing, right?

• 1:18:51Rich Roll?

  And you're so exposed because the course is 26 miles long. I mean, it's like if somebody's motivated, you know, I mean, there's not, there's really nothing you could do.

• 1:18:59Speaker 02

  There's no way to police 26 miles of course, particularly on a point to point, the way that Boston is, you know, and you just, they do as much as they possibly can for sure.

• 1:19:10Rich Roll?

  So Des, are you training at all right now? Are you just taking a break?

• 1:19:13Speaker 01

  Um, when I can, I've been traveling around quite a bit and um, it's just trying to get something in every day. And then um, if it can be quality, that's great. But I'll start really diving back into things, probably a couple of weeks here. So.

• 1:19:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, got a few more baseballs you want to throw out?

• 1:19:31Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:19:32Rich Roll?

  What do you got? Do you have some cool stuff on the schedule coming up?

• 1:19:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, we're going to New York this week uh, for the mini 10K and global running day is Wednesday, uh, not to date the podcast, but uh, she is going to be doing some stuff there at the New York Stock Exchange and some different things and uh, appearances and whatnot. And then going to the BAA 10K uh, at the end of the month. So she gets, she gets one weekend off.

• 1:19:56Speaker 01

  That's right. One weekend to train.

• 1:19:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. She, she did run two hours yesterday, the pace group. So that was

• 1:20:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, right.

• 1:20:06Speaker 01

  I'm actually a little, I'm a little sore.

• 1:20:07Rich Roll?

  Taking pictures when you were going and putting them on Twitter. I saw that.

• 1:20:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:10Speaker 02

  It's very cool.

• 1:20:11Rich Roll?

  Um, one of the things that I always uh, kind of talk about on the podcast as a, as a father of two daughters.

• 1:20:19Rich Roll?

  You know, people say, oh, there's no great female role models out there. And I think there are lots of them. There's amazing women doing amazing things. It's just that we don't do a very good job of really celebrating them to the extent that we should. And we're focused on the Kardashians or what have you. So now, as this newly anointed female role model, like, how do you think about what you do and who you are and the impact that you can have on young girls?

• 1:20:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's definitely really cool to know that we have the spotlight on our sport. And I don't think I'm alone in it at all. I do think that the American women distance runners right now, there's a ton of faces that are doing great things and are really inspiring. And that's the whole thing, is if you can make this somewhat selfish sport connect and matter and get somebody to buy a pair of shoes, get a girl to decide to learn, take up running, and it's a lifetime activity, you can change a life, which is really cool. I don't see myself changing how I do things.

• 1:21:31Speaker 01

  It's just me being me, and I hope that there are really great parts that people will want to emulate or be inspired by. But I'm not actively trying to say, hey, I want to change this or change that.

• 1:21:46Rich Roll?

  Right. You're being you.

• 1:21:48Speaker 01

  I guess it's a lead by example.

• 1:21:50Rich Roll?

  You don't need to be anything more than who you are. You know, just you being you and what you do is really inspiring and it's powerful. And I think it was really cool how the media really did latch on to your story, and it was so broadly told in such a beautiful way. And I think it's really cool for our culture right now. You know, we're in crazy times right now, and we need more stories like you. So it was so great that it unfolded in that beautiful way. And I think that the legacy of that will continue to be told for a long time. And I think you're in a position to really influence a lot of young girls in a really positive way, and I think that's super exciting.

• 1:22:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's pretty cool.

• 1:22:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it is. So if there is a young girl listening to this who's like, she seems cool, what do you want to say to that person?

• 1:22:43Speaker 01

  I would say...

• 1:22:47Speaker 01

  Figure out what you're about. Figure out what you want. Get comfortable with yourself, you know. And it might not be running, whatever it is that you like to do, do it with all your heart and dream big and give yourself a chance, you know, show up and do whatever it takes. And, um, yeah, just love what you do. Like, I think that's why I've gotten this far in running. It's just loving what I do. And it makes, you know, it's like, kind of a cliche, but if you love your job, you're never going to work a day in your life type thing. But, um, it's true.

• 1:23:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, I think most people don't do a good enough job of asking themselves that, that very question. Because we're not, we're not sort of culturally attuned to, to follow our hearts in the way that I think that, that we should be. And I think if everybody loved what they did, or had the courage to, you know, pull on that thread and follow it, I think the world would be a better place. So I think that's beautiful. I think that's a good way to wrap it up.

• 1:23:52Speaker 01

  Sounds great.

• 1:23:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So thank you so much. You are an inspiration. I really appreciate you coming to talk to me today. If people want to find you online, what's the best place for them to do that?

• 1:24:04Speaker 01

  I'm on Twitter at Dez, D E S underscore Linden, L I N D E N. And it's Instagram as well. I put some fun pictures out.

• 1:24:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah, cool. And Josh, what about you?

• 1:24:14Speaker 02

  Josh Cox. Yeah, but just follow Dez.

• 1:24:16Rich Roll?

  You're a toning for that hug.

• 1:24:20Speaker 02

  It is.

• 1:24:21Rich Roll?

  No, it's cool. I really appreciate your guys' time today. Thanks a lot.

• 1:24:25Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:24:26Speaker 02

  Thanks, man.

• 1:24:31Rich Roll?

  What an incredible story. Thank you, Dez. Thank you, Josh, for taking the time to share with us today. Do me a favor. Let both Dez and Josh know what you thought of today's conversation. You can find Dez online at Dez underscore Linden on both Twitter and Instagram, and Josh is at Josh Cox on both of those platforms as well. Make a point of checking out the show notes to this episode on the episode page at ritual.com. We put a lot of work into them. It's basically a syllabus to extend your learning, your edification, your infotainment of this conversation beyond the conversation, beyond the earbuds. And we put a lot of work into them and they're awesome. I will be doing

• 1:25:11Rich Roll?

  a live event in Dublin coming up soon, June 30th with the Happy Pair guys. It's going to be at Smock Alley Theatre in downtown Dublin. It's going to be a great evening. There is a link to tickets in the show notes and also on the appearances page on my website. If you are in Dublin or nearby, I would love to meet you and see you. So check it out. If you're looking to dial up your nutritional regimen, if you're looking for a little more direction on how to cook healthy and delicious, check out our meal planner, meals.richroll.com. We have thousands of plant-based recipes available to you. Everything is super customized based on your personal preferences, your budget, how many people are you cooking for, what are you allergic

• 1:25:52Rich Roll?

  to, what foods do you like? We have unlimited grocery lists. We have grocery delivery in about 200 US cities right now with more rolling out as well as international delivery in certain cities coming soon as well. All of this is available to you for $1.90 a week when you sign up for a year. For more information and to sign up, go to meals.richroll.com or click on Meal Planner on the top menu on my website. If you would like to support my work, share the show with your friends and on social media, grab their phones, subscribe them to the program, hit that subscribe button yourself on Apple Podcasts or on Google Podcasts. They just released their new Android app. I heard it's pretty good. So if you're an Android user,

• 1:26:36Rich Roll?

  make sure to subscribe on that platform. All of this really helps with the visibility of the show and ultimately helps me bring the best guests to you for the future. You can also support the show on [email protected]/donate. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today. Jason Camiello for audio engineering, production, show notes, interstitial music, lots of behind the scenes stuff. Blake Curtis and Margot Lubin for video editing and graphics and theme music as always by Analemma. Thanks for the love, you guys. Thank you for listening. I never take you guys for granted. I'll see you back here in a couple few. Until then. Just show up and keep showing up.

• 1:27:44Rich Roll?

  You.