Clown of Slipknot

Michael Shawn Crahan, better known as Clown, is the co-founder and percussionist of Slipknot. Formed in 1995, the metal band rose to popularity with albums like Slipknot and Iowa. As one of the most recognizable names in modern metal, Slipknot has earned 11 Grammy nominations and one win for “Before I Forget” in 2006. Beyond music, Crahan has directed films, created visual art, and overseen many of Slipknot’s creative concepts, including stage design and imagery. ------ Thank you to the sponsors that fuel our podcast and our team: Anthropic https://Claude.com/tetra ------ AG1 https://DrinkAG1.com/tetra ------ Squarespace https://Squarespace.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Athletic Nicotine https://www. AthleticNicotine.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Lectio 365 https://Lectio365.com ------ Sign up to receive Tetragrammaton Transmissions https://www.tetragrammaton.com/join-newsletter

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Rick Rubin?

  Tetragrammaton.

• 0:24Speaker 01

  First of all, I'm very blessed. And I keep the company of the most amazing people. I've always known this. But when you lose some friends, you start taking a good look at life. And then, you know, like with Joey, I try to explain to people, you know, because people were really hard on me with Joey. Because, you know, we separated, you know, the band. And, you know, but human beings don't know the story. Real friends don't tell it because of love. And you get older, you start recognizing it. No one in my career has really like stopped me and asked me what the album cover was. Or why this?

• 1:08Speaker 01

  You know, I'm not trying to force it down anybody anymore, you know? I never was. I just love art. And that was my job, was to be this like visionary sort of, you know, Paul Gray, the bass player who I started the band with. You know, he always said I was gonna change the face of metal the way it looks. Yeah, and you did. I didn't recognize that until he was gone. And with Joey, you know, I didn't recognize how great he was and how blessed I was to be in his presence. Because I was like, "Yo, you're late. You know, I carried your drum set up. Don't do it again. I'm gonna kick it down the stairs." You know, and he's like, "I'd like to see it." You know, we were bros. You know, I wasn't... And you were kids.

• 1:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm not, I'm not stopping like, I knew his double bass was sick. I knew it was better than anyone. I know the sex of his fiddles, you know, like, they're just sexy and romantic and have so much feeling and it's not even like a technique. It's like some sort of, "Hey, here's a silk handkerchief." You know, "Mmmmm." And you're just like, "Whoa, I feel, I feel good." So my job has always been to take what I do very, very, very, very, very, very, very serious. Yeah. Almost too serious. Because.

• 2:24Rick Rubin?

  What's too serious?

• 2:25Speaker 01

  Well.

• 2:26Rick Rubin?

  Hard to say.

• 2:26Speaker 01

  Too serious is for the norm. I end up being around a lot of norm.

• 2:31Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 2:31Speaker 01

  And so they make me feel crazy.

• 2:34Rick Rubin?

  So your choice is to dumb yourself down to the norm.

• 2:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:37Rick Rubin?

  It's not acceptable.

• 2:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, and I don't do it, but I do walk around like a crazy man. They will make me believe that I'm crazy and that, you know, I gotta bring it down to the norm. And I'm like, well, we all know that A, that's not happening. B, that doesn't sound correct to me in life anyway. So I just have always wanted to do my very best and be the biggest I could be. Because the company I keep, I believe in luck because I just do. I just.

• 3:13Rick Rubin?

  And you experienced it.

• 3:14Speaker 01

  I've experienced luck, you know, but I'm more blessed than I am lucky. And I would never perpetrate to be something I'm not. So my whole life has been this question of everybody, you know, what, what happens next? And, you know, I learned from a very early age with trauma. I learned very early that we, we weren't getting out of here. And if we were, it was the only thing any of us were gonna do. And we're all gonna do it differently. That makes it pretty original, but since everybody's doing it, how original is it really? It sounds like the same for everybody, so I gotta dig in on that.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  So the only way to dig in on that, you know, that I did was that I grasped a hold of free will pretty easy and pretty early in life because I went to church before school because that was the first daycare. So mom and dad had to be at work early, so they dropped off. And you have the oldest pastor giving it because he's up at 3:30.

• 4:16Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  And, you know, it's a little hard to connect with the dude in the sermon because he's older and stuff, but you know, he's got a life of wisdom, so you should listen. So. When Paul would say to me, you know, you're gonna change metal, you know, this isn't any disrespect. What I would say is I would, I looked at him and I said, does that mean like, I'm gonna change the leather jacket and the jean jacket with the patches? I'm gonna get to like motivate some stuff, you know? And he's like, yeah, you know, yeah. And he's like, but that stuff's still gonna be around. I'm like, hey, I'm not knocking it. You're saying I'm gonna change metal. And I don't have brothers and sisters. I'm an only child. I lived in my basement. Anything I got, I had to get myself.

• 5:00Speaker 01

  There was no one helping. So I don't know what metal is to you. Paul Gray would watch Slayer in a parking lot in LA somewhere. You know, before their big time Slayer, like in a parking lot. He's telling me these stories. You know, East LA kid, you know, or Culver City and going to these shows and he did really well with me. And he showed me my path and he thought my path was crescendos and breakdowns and, and big rejoices. So he showed me Rage Against the Machine. He went right to the big breakdown. It actually played into it. Played it before it. So I didn't even really get to hear it go down. He's like, oh, sorry, back.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  Play it. Comes down, you know, fuck you. I won't do what you tell me, you know, boom. And I just looked at him. And he handed me the tape. He's like, that's yours. He's like, that's who I think, you know, you're, and he was right. I was a four, four drummer. I played some jazz, but I, I'm really good at four, four.

• 6:05Rick Rubin?

  What's the music you grew up on?

• 6:07Speaker 01

  I grew up on Monterey Pop Festival, Hendrix, The Band, Elvis. So much Beatles you can't even imagine. I mean, my mom would tell me once a week, don't ever forget that the Beatles are the greatest band ever and always will be. And I'm like, whatever. You know, I'm like, who's flat top?

• 6:27Rick Rubin?

  Turns out she was right.

• 6:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then. Get the PhD in rock and roll and you know, I'm working with you and we're, Greg Fittelman tells me, hey, half this board is the double fantasy board or whatever. And I'm like, you know, so yeah, Beatles, Lennon's my, my sort of superhero. You know, he'd, he'd be who, who I probably would have hung out with.

• 6:49Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  If he would have had to be.

• 6:51Rick Rubin?

  Was there a seed idea for Slipknot?

• 6:55Speaker 01

  Well, interesting enough, there was like a Walgreens in a mall and my mom was walking me in the mall and I was holding her hand and I was on the right side and they put the vinyl in the window, big long window, had to be 30 foot long and you just see all the new releases out in the front. And Kiss Dynasty, the silver got me and the black got me. And I just stopped and my mom's hand went and I was just staring at Gene Simmons. And my mom goes, you like that? And I go, yeah, I don't know. What is it? And she's like, you let's go look.

• 7:30Rick Rubin?

  She had never heard of Kiss before?

• 7:31Speaker 01

  First experience. And we walked around the corner and she goes, is this it? I go, yeah. And she goes, what do you like about? I'm like, look at this guy. I go, I want to look like that. I told her that. I go, I go, that's me. And she goes, what do you mean? It's you? I go, I don't know. I go, I realize it's makeup. I'm like, is this a band? And she's like, yeah, it's a band and this is what they wear. And I was like, that's what I mean. I'm like, if I was wearing makeup, I'd be this guy. I would not be the guy with the star. The cat's cool. It's still too.

• 8:03Rick Rubin?

  It's not you.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  It's not me. And I'm like, I love the spaceman, but he's gotta be the guitar player or something, you know, like, he's NASA. So I'm like, I'm, I, I'm worried about this space. I'm not going to that space. But Gene, those eyes and that conviction. So we, my mom's like, let me look at it. She looked at it. She's like, I'll get it for you if you want it. I was like, that'd be cool. So we got it, went right home and I'd already been taught how to work vinyl, was listening to my mom's records.

• 8:33Rick Rubin?

  How old were you, would you say?

• 8:36Speaker 01

  It's way before sixth grade. It's gotta be third or fourth grade. It's pretty, it's pretty early, you know, eighty, eighty-one. But I can remember sitting in front of my mom's stereo, Indian style, you know, just checking it out. And I'm, like I said, I'm an only child, so my imagination is where I live. So that I can just sit there and just, I'm, I'm already playing things in my mind. So then, they started buying me all the records. I remember they got me Destroyer next. Yeah. And then my dad went on a trip and he came back with Kiss Alive Two. And when I saw the picture of Gene on the back with the sweat and the blood, I was like, okay,

• 9:19Speaker 01

  this isn't a bunch of guys just wearing makeup. I don't know what this guy's about. Like, I'm not into dark, scary stuff, but it was me. You know, I'm like, I want the blood. And, you know, I went through some stuff as a kid and who, who knows where the real brain goes because of what we go through or why I literally wanted to be Gene Simmons? I don't know. Was it because my mom would explain the Bob haircuts that the Beatles had? And then she would explain Jim Morrison and go, look at how beautiful he is. She's like, if, if I wasn't married to your dad and I could, I, I would hang out with Jim Morrison, but if I wanted to be dirty, it'd be Rod Stewart. And I'd just be like, Mom, what are you talking about?

• 10:04Speaker 01

  But, so I learned a lot. But anyway, that was my first thing. Lots of records start coming. And then somehow I was on my journey. So, you know, Quiet Riot came, Motley Crue, everything AC/DC. I mean, they, they're a big contributor to my life. I mean, I could talk to you for hours and hours about.

• 10:31Speaker 01

  Just what they are. God, I mean, man, I don't think a lot of people know that they have a movie, Let There Be Rock, you know, that movie? And when they would show it in a movie theater in Des Moines, people would dress up like Angus Young. And when he would do his solo, they would run up and down the thing, the hat, the schoolboy stuff. And we'd all stand up and this is just a movie, you know, and we're in Des Moines. So we're lucky if, if anything makes it. But I saw Kiss was my very first concert. And I remember there was a smell in the air and I was like, I don't know what that smell is, but I like it. And I feel like I'm at home with that. I go, I don't know what it is. I remember talking to my friends, like, what is that?

• 11:13Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  So I was like, it's marijuana or whatever. And I was like, smells good. And then I noticed that all the high schools were there. Cause I was, I just grew up in a different time where there was a lot of static. If you were in the wrong part of town and that's how you did it. There was no internet, you know, just it's how you burn off steam, I guess.

• 11:33Rick Rubin?

  So Kiss brought everyone together.

• 11:35Speaker 01

  Kiss brought everyone together and I was like, I'm home.

• 11:39Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  I don't know how I got here. I didn't know this existed. And I had gone to a lot of shows with my dad. He took me to Jerry Lee, Ray Charles, a lot of B B King, John Cougar Mellencamp, Dolly Parton, Bo Cephus.

• 11:54Rick Rubin?

  But those were more things he liked.

• 11:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. My dad said this, he goes, I don't really understand what your kids listen to and what that's about. But if you're going to get into music, I want you to know where it came from. Your mom does a real good job telling you about the Beatles and the Doors and stuff. But I'm going to take you to Ray Charles and you're going to get older and you're going to say, I saw Ray Charles. And you're going to be able to explain it because you love music and you're going to get goosebumps and you're going to feel this. So I remember having a big opinion about the shows my dad would take me to.

• 12:24Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 12:24Speaker 01

  And I really looked forward to them.

• 12:25Rick Rubin?

  Would your parents play music in the house?

• 12:28Speaker 01

  My mom, my dad, and I mean this in the most loving way, you know, but my dad was an alcoholic and he had a lot going on. And so he wasn't really present because of things. He was suffering from, you know, so mom played the music and she noticed very early that I gravitated to it, that I could get some peace and that maybe it was even better than going out and playing kickball because maybe I had some built up aggression a little bit and I'm actually, you know, got some things going on because of what's going on here, but we're not gonna know that until I'm older and I'm being imprinted, but music,

• 13:11Speaker 01

  you know, I almost got expelled out of high school for temper and they finally did this biofeedback crap on me and I lost my way. They brainwashed me basically for a bit, but I had music and I had my friends and I had, and music never gave up on me.

• 13:29Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  And even though I couldn't get, I totally, the clockwork orange me, like straight up, I couldn't get angry, it saved my life. And I was so good at biofeedback.

• 13:39Rick Rubin?

  They didn't sedate you though.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  Hmm. It was two things on my, I'm sorry, I'm.

• 13:44Rick Rubin?

  That's good.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  You, you know, I'm, I'm so scattered, Rick, you know, it all makes sense.

• 13:48Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, it's all good. You never have to apologize.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  I'm everywhere. I, I really try to reel in, but in my book.

• 13:54Rick Rubin?

  Let it go.

• 13:55Speaker 01

  It's all the lures.

• 13:56Rick Rubin?

  You are free.

• 13:57Speaker 01

  Thank you, thank you.

• 13:57Rick Rubin?

  That's your strength.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  It is, it is. And I'm learning that I need to, yeah, I'm, I'm learning it's my strength.

• 14:05Rick Rubin?

  It's all good.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  I hate that it took me to my 50s to, to realize my strengths, but oh, that's what wisdom is.

• 14:11Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 14:11Speaker 01

  Anyway, it was a electrode thing here, here, just glued and it was to a machine and I had to sit with the freshman counselor. And I had to listen to a tape and the tape would tell you, you know, breathing at first. I didn't know at the time that I had sleep apnea. I was only sleeping about an hour a night for years. And so I was on a level of a different kind of consciousness and was able to survive. And I'm still that way. Like I looked yesterday, I got one minute of ram sleep and I got two hours and 11 minutes of sleep out of seven hours in the bed.

• 14:50Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 14:51Speaker 01

  Trying, so I don't sleep. My wife's always afraid I'm gonna not ever sleep. I'm just gonna be walking around and it's hard, but that's who I am and it kind of works in my favor. But I, I wanna get back, I wanna get back. So the tape would say, get angry. And you'd get angry and it would go beep beep beep beep beep beep beep beep beep beep beep, you know? And the point was to get it to go beep, just solid. It means you're in full control. You're raging, you're inside thinking. You got like an inner superhero power and you gotta hone in on it. And when you do that, that thing will stay constant. It will not go beep beep.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  It'll, it'll just sit there. And then the opposite is quit making it beep. Slow it down. Get it from going beep beep beep beep beep. And if you can ever get it to stop beating completely. I was, and I'm not just saying this, I was so good at it, I could go from beep to silence. I was just like playing games with it. But what I did was I took it as a chance to get out of class. Yeah. And I didn't know I was falling asleep in less than five minutes. I had no idea. I had no idea I disappeared every time. I'd go in there, I'd get comfortable. He wouldn't say anything. He'd just put on the tape. I'd get comfortable and I'd wake up and I'd be like, and he'd be like, how you feel?

• 16:19Speaker 01

  I'm like, I feel great. And he'd be like, yeah, we're done. I'm like, what happened? He's like, nothing. You start falling asleep. You were, today it was three minutes. And I was like, what's going on? But, you know, and then I'd go to football and I was kind of a star nose guard. And they were gonna put me on varsity and stuff. Done, toast. Just couldn't, couldn't get down, couldn't, couldn't do anything. So music didn't give up on me, but I don't think I was doing what I wanted to do. I was more like chilled out playing, maybe trying to get a little more technique. Rather get my Keith Moon out and I give a shit.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  Like my cymbal's on fire. Unfortunately, I had a teacher kept challenging me in class and, you know, I told him I didn't read the book. I'm, I'm like, I'm sorry, I didn't read it. You can give me an F, please, just.

• 17:17Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  Not in front of all these people and people were laughing and then he kept going and then I was like, can I just go out in the hall and next thing I know, I had him in a corner with a desk. And I just was unaware that I had even done that, but I just heard people laughing and laughing and I had no sleep. And, you know, I'm going through stuff like people go through and but I say all that because I, you know, bring it back around, I, music and my upbringing in more or less a military private school. Without being total military, but very dress code and you had to be shaven, you know, I could grow a mustache since I was in like.

• 17:59Rick Rubin?

  Did you like the experience?

• 18:00Speaker 01

  No, you could be hit by grown men and to which I was once and never again. That was the first and only time someone besides someone that might've been in my family or someone I was ripping my mouth off to, this was just a grown man who had the ability to give me a little thing in my diaphragm and I'm 14 years old, he's in his 40s and scared the living, I mean, he's a big dude.

• 18:30Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 18:30Speaker 01

  He'll throw down, you're not gonna talk back, he's the disciplinary indeed. He's got high blood pressure, his face gets red and I said the wrong thing and, you know, he gave me a reminder and it stuck. I was like, no grown man will ever put their hands on me again because of my mouth and my attitude and no sleep and no one understands me, no, no, no, no, no, no grown man is gonna touch me ever again because it, it scarred me.

• 19:00Speaker 01

  I have taken a lot of benefits from it, you know, if you look at Slipknot, I, I love military issue feeling. I like to have a purpose, I like to be on time, I like to be separated, the culture, you know, the community, the community works hard, they're, they're looking for anything and have chosen you and, and, and given you their hard earned money. So I, I wanna come out. Not authority, but like, you know, I'm here for business. You know, I came on time, I'm in shape, hair's cut, like shit's tucked in. You're gonna get a show, you know, so I love that.

• 19:43Rick Rubin?

  Professional.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And imagine the girls at a Catholic school, you know, I mean, they're all trying to outdo each other. So, you know, the shirts get more starched, you know, crazier collars. You know, I mean, everyone's looking top notch. It's not fun being told what to do. But if you can make it through and later in life, you're like, you know, I like making my bed. I come back later, it's made and I can start fresh. I don't have to try and put together something. So I took a lot of benefit.

• 20:19Rick Rubin?

  Good habits.

• 20:20Speaker 01

  Good habits, discipline the right way.

• 20:23Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 20:24Speaker 01

  I don't know how I graduated. I think they just got me out. I would bet money on it. It was a different time. There was no way they were doing with me. I pulled up on senior finals day and I had four tests. And I had to get a D's in order to get out of high school. And I pulled up, my bro pulled up, he's like, are we going to Pink Floyd? And I was like, you driving? He goes, yeah, I grabbed my cigarettes, got in his little Chevette. We got on the highway with like 60 bucks between us. Took off to Northern Iowa to the Unidome in Cedar Falls and watched Pink Floyd do the momentary lapse of reason?

• 21:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, Dogs of War, all that stuff. Anyway, Unidome, we pull up, totally blow off senior finals. I'm flunking anyway. I'm like, I'm going to Pink Floyd.

• 21:20Rick Rubin?

  How was the show?

• 21:21Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, I chose to be sober for it because, you know, we drank beer and stuff back then. And I was like, no. I'm gonna fucking. You wanna take it in. And by then, by then, being a senior, I mean, I'm already been through the Zeppelin, the Who, you know, the whole class, because older kids are like Pink Floyd. And now Pink Floyd, obviously with me, they got the movie, they got the videos, they got the art, they got the crazy songs. That's what I always wanted for Slavna. I wanted to be the Slavna Pink Floyd. You know, have the art, you know, have other things driving. If the riffs are gonna be there, why not have a phoenix with the riff?

• 22:06Speaker 01

  And have it work together because of band members. So anyway, we went and one thing I'll tell you that blew my mind was, we were walking around the Unidome and it's the kind of dome that you can see the sky. And it started off with like birds, you know, I was like, are there fucking birds in here? You know, what is this? And then it turned into some other weird albatross sounding thing or something. You're like, I have no idea, but you're picking up on something. And then it's like a helicopter and it's close. And you're like, what? Then it's planes. And then finally, someone tells us there's a quad stereo setup. And I look up and it's the first time I saw speakers on the sides,

• 22:50Speaker 01

  in the back, in the front, and Pink Floyd's playing things, flying back and forth. They're like, you know what? Zap the herd, some Zeppelins and some helicopters an hour before we play. Let's get it started. So for me, I was like, this is what I live for. And like, these gentlemen had a meeting and it's somebody's job to make the helicopter go at 4:30. I'm like, I gotta be in this business. So then, right when the sun goes down, and I read this in the paper, but right when the sun goes down, Shine On Your Crazy Diamond starts playing.

• 23:32Speaker 01

  You know, all this stuff and everyone just goosebumps it. And now there's a different vibe. And I read in the paper that they do that every show. They begin their show right when the sun sets. So every day it's somebody's job to say, today the sun in Cincinnati is setting at this time. Yesterday was this time. Get your tea because we're moving up a half an hour. And I just thought, rock and roll.

• 23:57Rick Rubin?

  On cue.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  You know, and they had the pig and the pig's testicles were as big as a bus, you know? And it was just flying over. People had the eyes and then there was the bed came flying down with the guy on it. None of us saw that and an explosion and changed my life, changed my life. And then I got to take my mom to it several years later, but that was division bell. They played in an outdoor stadium in Ames, 30 miles away. And I didn't buy tickets. I told my mom I was gonna get scout tickets and she was really mad. And I said, just trust your son. I learned a couple of things, man. This is my people. And she's like, whatever. And I went over and I'm like, here's my guy. And I went over and I got, and I walked her up to the 15th road. My mom was in tears.

• 24:42Speaker 01

  She was just like, how? And I was like, mom, it's just money. Like somebody got some tickets and they asked for four times and gonna pay rent? And my mom's here and we're here and she just, she loved Comfortably numb and she loved that band. So again, religious, like you can't be in a band, you know, Slipknot can't exist. If I'm not gonna full duty, my duty and my soul. And I have peers like Pink Floyd introducing how far you can take it. Not, not saying this is how you should do it. This is how we do it.

• 25:17Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, examples of what it can be.

• 25:19Speaker 01

  Look at what we stumbled across.

• 25:21Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 25:21Speaker 01

  We're not gonna have opening bands and we're gonna play right at sunset and people are gonna remember it. And here I am, 30 odd, 40 years later, telling the story, you know? So cheers.

• 25:31Rick Rubin?

  I never heard that before either, and it's a great idea.

• 25:33Speaker 01

  It really hit.

• 25:36Rick Rubin?

  It connects you to the planet. It's like, it's much bigger than the music when it's in time with the cycle.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  And everyone, just threaded in true vibration.

• 25:46Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  True frequency.

• 25:49Rick Rubin?

  Through all of this, through your love of music growing up, did you know this is what I'm gonna do?

• 25:54Speaker 01

  I did. Same first Kiss concert, what happened was, King Cobra was playing, which was cool. Carmen had a book out, Modern Drummer. I was learning off that book, so here he is, the guy that has the book, and I'm learning how to play

• 26:12Speaker 01

  from him, from his book and his little square vinyls that I'm listening to on my mom's turntable. And they're so analog, if you can ever get your hand on an original Modern Drummer book that has the original square, plastic vinyl, it's every drum beat.

• 26:31Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 26:31Speaker 01

  He'll be like, alright, number thirty-three, and a one, and a two, one, two, and then

• 26:38Speaker 01

  it's like straight Zeppelin.

• 26:39Rick Rubin?

  It's great.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  And if you're a kid, you're like, I'm gonna fuckin' play drums. I'm like, I listen to this, hell, greasy this is, and the bass drum comes in on an offbeat, and that's where you get that, so what happened was, it was them, and then I wanna say Faster Pussycat. And Faster Pussycat did some stuff because they were the very first band I'd ever seen use direct input sampling before the show. So they, the lights went out, strobes hit, and it was a voice through direct input just, Faster, Faster, Faster, Pussycat, pussy. And it just was so loud and just art.

• 27:23Speaker 01

  And I was like, what is this? This obviously isn't the band, but obviously the band made this. So they played, not really my thing, you know? I could never get into anything glam, you know, but anyway, lights hit, and there's a light on a tunnel over here that they didn't turn off, and the way I am, I'm like, oh, someone's fired, they didn't turn off the hallway, I can see the band. And I'm like, I can see the band. I'm like, that's Gene Simmons. And I can see Gene Simmons in this hallway, in his stuff. And I'm like, somehow I'm not separated.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  Somehow, he seems right here, like Dynasty, you know? And I watch him, and what happens is, he goes from the hallway out to the dark and there's someone with him. And I now know it's just a security guard. But back then, I'm like, who is this person with the flashlight? And I watch him, and they make sure Gene in those big boots, they make sure he gets over to these stairs, and they light it, and they show him where to put his hands. And in my mind, I was like, here's the deal. Hopefully, I will play and practice and earn the right to be on that stage, to be a performer in frequency. That's the way I want it.

• 28:52Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 28:53Speaker 01

  But if not, I'm carrying the flashlight. I'll be with one band my whole career. There'll be stories about me.

• 29:01Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  About how I know things before things. And before I get fired, I'll go on a vacation till I'm missed before the drama starts. So I'm like, I will be that guy. I will get a manager job. I will get...

• 29:15Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 29:16Speaker 01

  You know, I didn't know about front of house.

• 29:18Rick Rubin?

  No, but you knew this was gonna be your life in one aspect or another.

• 29:22Speaker 01

  One aspect or another. So, we get signed, we come to...

• 29:26Rick Rubin?

  Tell me how the band comes together. What's the first conversation?

• 29:29Speaker 01

  Well, it's a good one, because Jim Root, the guitar player, was the last member to get into Slipknot. We were already signed when he came in, okay? Why I bring this up is because all of us were in different bands, and we all opened up for his band.

• 29:45Rick Rubin?

  I see.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  He was in the biggest band, metal band, thrash. They had lanyards. Jim's hair was down to his butt.

• 29:54Rick Rubin?

  How much of a scene was there?

• 29:55Speaker 01

  Rick, we could, I mean, I can't even tell you. You know, it's so big. You wouldn't believe it.

• 30:02Rick Rubin?

  Just a local scene of cool band.

• 30:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, you wouldn't. We're all older now and we look back.

• 30:07Rick Rubin?

  Everybody was in a band.

• 30:08Speaker 01

  Everybody was in a different band. So Paul Gray and our original singer were in a band. My band was gonna go first. I played, then Paul runs up to me, cuz I'm sort of punk.

• 30:24Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 30:24Speaker 01

  And, you know, it's kind of sub-pop meets Steve Albini, you know, Pixies, whatever. That's who we are. Real, you know, we're a little crazy. Paul comes over and he's like, bro. I, and I realize he's from California. So he, we feel a little California to him. So we hit it right off. And that's how it started. Me and him and the original singer. Then I met Joey cuz he opened up for him. The next time I got asked back, we opened up. Then Joey's band was second. And I remember going out to Joey. He got done with his set and he went outside to get some air and I just jumped up on the stage and walked outside. I was older than everyone. I could get a beer. I walked outside and I was just staring at him.

• 31:09Speaker 01

  And he looked at, we didn't know each other. And he looked at me, he was like, what? And I was like, I just had to see if you were human. Like, I'm like, whoa. I'm like, you are a real person. Wow. Congratulations, man. I've never seen, in my life, I've never seen. I didn't know you could play drums like that.

• 31:28Rick Rubin?

  No.

• 31:29Speaker 01

  I had no idea.

• 31:30Rick Rubin?

  I don't think you can.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  I don't think you can, Rick. I don't think you can, you know. So one band, kind of in the same circle, Jacoarius, it was American, I thought.

• 31:41Rick Rubin?

  What was the band called?

• 31:42Speaker 01

  It was a band called Thirty-Five Inch Mudder. And he was, I think he was interested. Or something. But they were, they were just way too much like Rage Against the Machine. Even the singer looked like Zach LaBeouf.

• 31:57Rick Rubin?

  I see.

• 31:57Speaker 01

  But anyway, I say this because there was so much.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  I hate to use the word competition, but man,

• 32:05Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 32:05Speaker 01

  you would think this was every town.

• 32:07Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 32:07Speaker 01

  But as we got older and we look back on our lives, we as a band are so amazed on the dozens. One day we were in Tokyo, we were going from the hotel to the venue. And me, Corey Taylor and Jim Root started naming off all the bands we played with. It was over 50. They just kept coming.

• 32:29Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  And we're like, what is going on with Iowa and Des Moines? And you know, man, tech was different.

• 32:36Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 32:36Speaker 01

  Tech was the guitar. Someone who needed to be challenged picked up a guitar instead of Atari. But they're the same person.

• 32:44Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 32:45Speaker 01

  But they're like, no, no.

• 32:46Rick Rubin?

  And there was nothing else to do.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Nothing, nothing, zero. I can remember playing drums and then eating dinner going, I'm getting back down there. I want to hear that shit.

• 32:57Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 32:58Speaker 01

  You know, I want to hear that.

• 32:59Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 33:00Speaker 01

  But you know, and that's what went on. So, you know, I really have a hard time when too many people say that music changed. It's not that music changed, tech changed, people changed. It's not the music that we've all come from, but it'll all come back around. I've seen a resurgence in tapes. I mean, these kids today, they're like, look at this. It's a cassette. It's analog. And you're like, you see yourself want to get mad and be like, but with me, I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. See, the real stuff will always come back. And these kids will ask, what is an arrangement?

• 33:36Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 33:37Speaker 01

  What was Robbie Robinson doing up in this house?

• 33:40Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  Lots of things. And throwing down music was the majority of it. And it came from a place of God, you know?

• 33:51Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 33:51Speaker 01

  And so don't mess around with Pro Tools too much. You're not really actually learning anything other than combining yourself with tech and creating a new way. And so be it. But, you know, we all get to be around. And, you know, I just did some music and my assistant told me, wow, your, your record is so different than everything. I'm like, it's not that it's different, it's just that. I come from a school that if there's a song, what's it sound like? If the song's called "Grime", what does grime sound like? What are the drums? Like, are they in the corner? Are they drum room? Or we put them outside? What's the song? What's the story? What's the sound of the guitar?

• 34:36Rick Rubin?

  It's not all the same.

• 34:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, you know, you go in and write a record. And engineer's like, "What are you thinking?" "Okay, it's ambient. I want to get some CB mics underneath. And when the bridge comes, I want to..." I don't know if there's a lot of that going on. And I don't know if it's their fault because they just don't know. Because we've let, a lot of us have let it go because of money. Studios become expensive. No one wants to use tape. You know, you don't have to, which... And it's not really the music industry's problem. Our artists' problems. I just think the tech and the planet Earth moves in a forward projection. And I talk like this because, you know, I used to think I was really important. I used to think, like, you know, I'm the clown.

• 35:21Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 35:22Speaker 01

  And now...

• 35:22Rick Rubin?

  Well, you are.

• 35:23Speaker 01

  I am. I'm super important. But you know what I mean? Like, I had to learn ego. And I had to learn, like, what really is important.

• 35:31Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 35:32Speaker 01

  And what importance can do for importance.

• 35:37Speaker 02

  There was a time when every great thinker had a confidant, a trusted companion with whom to wrestle ideas, to think out loud, to help uncover the essence of what path to take next and how best to follow through. That role has always mattered because meaningful problems require context, patience, and the ability to hold complexity. Anthropic developed Claude for just this kind of thinking. Claude is for minds that don't stop at "good enough". It's the collaborator that understands all aspects of your enterprise and advances along with you. Whether you're debugging code at midnight or strategizing your next business move,

• 36:21Speaker 02

  Claude sharpens your thinking to tackle the problems that matter most. Rather than offering isolated answers, Claude is built for sustained inquiry. Claude synthesizes information from multiple sources, turning scattered material into a coherent analysis, presented with a clear structure. It even includes citations. Patterns appear that would otherwise remain buried. Claude operates with continuity by securely connecting to professional tools, documents, calendars, and project platforms. At its core, Claude reflects a different philosophy of artificial intelligence,

• 37:03Speaker 02

  one that emphasizes collaboration over automation, depth over immediacy, and thinking with rather than thinking for. For problems worth solving, get started with Claude at claude.ai/tetra. Try it today.

• 37:30Rick Rubin?

  How did you end up with nine people?

• 37:33Speaker 01

  You know, it was a sound. I can remember Joey and I sitting around and he'd grab me all the time after practice. He'd be like, "Nine?" And I'd be like, "So what?" And he'd be like, "Nine?" You know, and he knew every band on Roadrunner. He knew every band ever.

• 37:49Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 37:50Speaker 01

  You know, and he'd be like, you know, and he'd be like, I would always tell him, like, "Don't orchestras have more than nine people?" I mean, I was at the symphony once. I swear to God, there had to be 50 people.

• 38:02Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  He's like, "Yeah, but that's different. People fly independently." I'm like, "Do they? Do you know that for a fact? It's still 50 adults getting on a plane, getting somewhere to be themselves." So, you know.

• 38:13Rick Rubin?

  Did you decide on nine in advance of knowing the nine people?

• 38:16Speaker 01

  No, no, no.

• 38:17Rick Rubin?

  Tell me how it happened.

• 38:18Speaker 01

  I had a vision of three drummers. I wanted a triangle. I had lost my ability to learn for a moment on drum set. I was repeating myself. I was really trying to learn. I hired a jazz drum teacher. I was really stuck in a locomotive. I was on a rail, on a certain engine with certain coil, and I just had to get off and hitchhike. So I'm a professional welder and I had a good friend that was listening. And he's like, hey, you said you wanted to make some shit. So we went in, he got the the place we worked and we got it for the weekend. We made, took my first drum set and we got it up so I could stand up.

• 39:00Speaker 01

  And then I had a relationship with a junkyard guy. No one's supposed to be able to buy from there, but I walked in and he's like, you're a curious little fellow. And I'm like, hey, man, I'm in a band. I want to get some kegs and stuff. And he's like, you're an art student, right? With the university? I'm like, yeah, I'm an art student of life. And he's like, get whatever you want, put it in a pile. You have cash? I'm like, I got cash. And so I'd walk around and I'd get kegs and 30 gallon drums, 50 gallon drums. Everything and anything that I thought had a sound.

• 39:40Speaker 01

  So the original lead singer was a drummer too, and he felt he lost his way on drumming. And he felt he didn't have what it took for the technique. So if they were gonna do, him and Paul and Joey, all those guys were in death metal bands. And Andy was a drummer and he just felt he couldn't cut that drumming. So he wanted to be a singer and he can grow. And to this day, he's the man. So he's like, I'm not gonna give up my drum either. And I was like, you play those. So I made him drums. And I had drums and originally Slipknot was less people. And the original lead singer was the other drummer and he was more up front.

• 40:22Speaker 01

  And what was wonderful about that situation is he was a very technical, if black metal, thrash.

• 40:29Rick Rubin?

  Other musicians as well or just the three of you?

• 40:32Speaker 01

  Paul Gray playing guitar, Andy Raul playing the drums and singing. A gentleman by the name of Donny Steele was playing guitar and I was playing drum set.

• 40:45Rick Rubin?

  Right.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  And we all agreed that there was gonna be a metal drummer coming in. But, you know, and I always hated that because I told him, I'm gonna stand up. But, you know, I was jamming and I was, you know, so you just have to learn, you know? And then one day I was in Colorado and Andy and Paul invited Joey to come over without telling me. So I drove back from Colorado.

• 41:09Rick Rubin?

  You already knew Joey though?

• 41:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I knew him.

• 41:11Rick Rubin?

  Was this after you had seen him?

• 41:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, several times, yeah. So Joey was told I wasn't gonna be at practice and I left Colorado at like four in the morning. Left my family and I came to practice. My wife thought I was nuts. I was like, Joey's not coming to my band practice.

• 41:27Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 41:27Speaker 01

  So I came and we played three songs and I looked at him at the end. I just looked at him and I said, need me to play anything again? He goes, nah. I was like, I didn't think so. And I was like, you wanna use my sticks? He's like, could I? And I go, yeah. He took him and he goes, is it okay if I play your drum set? And I was like, of course, man. That's what we're here for. And I'm big brother, man, and I'm a much different person. I'm pretty aggro, dreadlocks. I'm, I'm ready. I am, I'm, it's time for life. I got two kids, you know, it's, it's time to get going. Either shut up or, or get a job. So he sits down and he goes, can I move the snare a little bit? And I go, of course.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  And he goes, ah. And I was like, right? And then Paul's like, you wanna jam one of them? He goes, let's play that last one, which was the song Sick, which is the first song we ever wrote. You know, man, they counted that shit off. And what I remember most, besides what he was doing, is the incredible ability to retain what those guys just played with me. You know, it was like a tornado hit my life. You know, I was just like, I have no idea what's happening right now. But I was so impressed on the, he just heard it once.

• 42:52Speaker 01

  I was the drummer, disregarded, taken to a level of insanity. One time through, from beginning to end. And I just didn't know talent like that. I didn't know practice like that. I didn't know talent. So we did a bunch of things and then I got on the drums with the singer. And Joey was just laughing, he loved it. And we got done with practice and we went outside and I go to Joey, I go, "Okay, are you in or out?" He goes, "I gotta think about it." And I'm a pretty aggro person. I got right up in his face. I go, "What do you mean, you gotta think about it? There's no thinking about it. You're either in or you're out. That's not how this works, son." You know, I'm like, "We got problems.

• 43:37Speaker 01

  What do you mean? You, you, you gonna put me on hold? You gonna put Paul Gray on hold like that?" I swear, Rick, it took, it wasn't 10 years. It might've been five, six, seven years. Maybe around the time we did an album with you.

• 43:52Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 43:53Speaker 01

  He told me once, you know, we're having a drink or something. He goes, "Hey, can I tell you something?" I go, "Oh, you gonna give me something in life?" You know, he goes, "Yeah, I'm gonna give you something. You're gonna like it." I go, "What?" He goes, "You know that day you asked me if I, you know, wanted in? I told you I'm gonna think about it." I go, "Yeah." That might've started me and you off in a bad way, you and me, you know? And we're laughing. And he goes, "Well, the truth is that if you wouldn't have let me in the band, I would've taken your idea and started, son of a bitch. I would've done it." I'm like, "What do you mean, you would've done it?" And he's like, "I would've got Paul. I would've done the three drummer thing, but a little different." I was like, you know, now we're arguing again, you know? But I was like, "Thank you." Thanks, man. Thanks, you know.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  And he goes, "Bro, I just practiced and did my thing and had played with so many people. And then you show up with three drums and you're, you know, because I was in right away, man. You know, I'm playing just like I play now.

• 44:49Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 44:49Speaker 01

  You know, just really, you know, so. And then what happened was, we were like, Paul's gonna play bass, so we need another guitar player.

• 44:59Rick Rubin?

  Why did Paul switch to bass?

• 45:00Speaker 01

  Because Paul's originally a guitar player.

• 45:03Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 45:03Speaker 01

  And maybe he just wasn't gonna be as good as he needed to be, as fast as we were moving.

• 45:11Rick Rubin?

  I see.

• 45:11Speaker 01

  He was a genius. And if he wanted to get up every day and practice more, he could do anything. But he, you know, he's, you know, we were slow-moving together, you know? So bass was easier, he could write. And Joey and Paul were always like, "No, this is, this is starting." So we got the drums. Paul's like, "I'm gonna have to do the bass to communicate and write the riffs with Joey, and we're gonna need guitar players." So we got a guitar player that was in Joey's band. His name was Josh Brainard. Josh Brainard is actually on our first album. He quit after we came home.

• 45:51Speaker 01

  We went back to Indigo Ranch with Ross Robinson for another three months to redo one song, Spit It Out. And that's when Jim came. And we redid Spit It Out at the same tempo. But the version we did in Des Moines ourselves just smokes all of it. So they had to keep it, you know, and no one was really happy about it. Because you got this album made up at Indigo Ranch, and then you have this song that got assigned that we recorded ourselves that you can't recreate. So if you go to the first album self-titled, the version that is on the self-titled, Spit It Out, is our original record recorded in Des Moines, Iowa.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  So Sid was added to it and Ross and Joey did a mix. So it's, you know, a different version as far as quality. But just to give you a little information, the reason why it happened was Ross, when we pre-prode and recorded, we did a faster version and a slower version. But he didn't do one the same tempo because he thought you have this.

• 46:58Rick Rubin?

  I see.

• 46:59Speaker 01

  Then we went away and the label's like, no to the fast one, no to the slow one. We should really try to get one the same. They spent all the money to try to get it and you just couldn't create.

• 47:10Rick Rubin?

  Cause it's magic.

• 47:11Speaker 01

  It was art. When Rick, when we were in the basement and that happened, we stopped and looked at each other and we all knew something entered reality. And it was different.

• 47:25Rick Rubin?

  It's the greatest.

• 47:26Speaker 01

  It was the greatest. I tell people it's never been better than that.

• 47:29Rick Rubin?

  That's it.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  Never been better than that. I remember looking at people and we only got half the song. We played it 50 times, 30, 50 times to try and get somewhere. But we only got to like half. We were all so excited to come in the next day. Four days later, wait and bleed, you know, just start and roll. A week later, liberate. A week later, no life. Just now, it's just, you know, we're revising now like poetry. We're like, let's go back to sick and look at a few things and oh man, spit it out just, yeah.

• 48:00Rick Rubin?

  Can we listen to that?

• 48:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:50Speaker 03

  Baby, it's the way you gotta spread a lot of room I'm trying to keep another little spot The label when you realize that I'm hurt I guess it's time to bury your ass with the chrome Straight to the dome, hear me right, bitch I'm in the stunt And if you know what's good, just shut up and beg For the best damn Don't you know your kiss is a sapper? Yeah, it's such a good time! Being a mini-bad boy, I'm boy, I'm trying to don't hear shit Cause the keys hit it loud, ah! Come on, I get a face full of tact They're living up, ah! Going home in a basket You're gonna pull the power, no nothing Nice, that shit Late, that's something, bail, store, protect And you can have it if you want, but I'll find you Coming up behind you!

• 49:19Speaker 03

  Switch! It's on! All you wanna do is shut me down All I wanna do is step you out

• 49:26Speaker 03

  Switch! It's on! All you wanna do is shut me down All I wanna do is step you out

• 49:44Speaker 03

  Time I set this record straight All I need in those places is making me irate Sticking my fifty-fifty on that fears Where you gonna be in the next five years? The cool one overpulled, another politics Get your lips wet, baby, you're the gang Gonna make you sick You got dick when I grab that, that good stuff Man, are you sick of me? Good enough, hell! Fuck me, I'm all out of venom mace! Fuck me, I'm all out of venom mace! Fuck me, I'm all out of venom mace! Fuck me, I'm all out of venom mace! Fuck me, I'm all out of venom mace! Fuck me, I'm all out of venom mace! Fuck me, I'm all out of venom mace! Fuck me, I'm all out of venom mace! Switch! It's on! All you wanna do is shut me down All I wanna do is step you out Switch! It's on! All you wanna do is shut me down All I wanna do is step you out! Switch!

• 50:32Speaker 03

  Switch!

• 50:35Speaker 03

  Switch! Switch! Switch! It's on!

• 50:48Speaker 01

  That's what did it. That was the one no one could quit humming. And you know, Corey was fairly new to being in Slipknot. Original lead singer left, Corey was in. Month or so in, Spit It Out's written. So even if you were gonna do it later, you would never get that conviction of someone trying out for something he wants in his life. There's a whole other reason to come to bat. Being asked to come to bat for a different reason is gonna get different results. That's my career. And I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for Corey. Yes, I believe in everything musically. I mean, we're Slipknot. But you know, my partner, my bro,

• 51:32Speaker 01

  he brought that melody and we were able to make the flower, so to speak. The pollen, the petals, the whole deal.

• 51:43Speaker 04

  When the lights go down, the body gets to work. Sleep is not passive time. It's an active biological state. One in which the brain clears metabolic waste, the nervous system resets, and the body begins repair at a cellular level. During sleep, muscles recover. Hormones that regulate growth, metabolism, and stress are released. Memory is consolidated. Immune activity increases.

• 52:21Speaker 04

  After years of research and development, AG1 has formulated AGZ, a nighttime drink designed to support the body during this essential nightly window. Each serving provides magnesium and zinc, minerals studied for their roles in nervous system function and recovery, alongside carefully selected botanicals to help the body transition from stimulation to rest.

• 52:51Speaker 04

  AGZ doesn't induce sleep. It supports the physiological conditions that allow sleep and the work that happens during it to unfold naturally.

• 53:04Speaker 04

  No artificial sweetness, no GMOs. Gluten free and dairy free. AG1 powers up the day. AGZ settles down the night. Together, they reflect a simple idea. Health isn't built in one moment. It's built over a full 24 hour cycle. Learn more at drinkag1.com/tetra. Try it tonight.

• 53:44Rick Rubin?

  What was the first show you guys ever did?

• 53:45Speaker 01

  First show we did was a Thursday night in a bar that I ended up buying to get assigned. It was called Safari. It's next to a law college called Drake University. I live right down the street, sort of inner, not, not sort of, inner city. Maybe about eight blocks from where it went down. You know, every night. The bar, I knew the owner, good friend of mine. I said, look, we all grew up in this bar in the South Side. It's too far. I'm gonna create a new scene. We gotta do a new thing. You have bands here. I want a Saturday night. He's like, I'll give you a Thursday. It's like, all right, whatever. So we get a Thursday and I ask him, I say, hey, can I come down and clean the stage in the bar?

• 54:30Speaker 01

  And he's like, what are you talking about? I'm like, dude, I'm like, you got every band who ever played, like, they're not even good flyers. They're ripped up and there's staples everywhere, drumsticks. I'm like, there's a glass of piss. I'm like, I'll do it for free. I'm like, my band's playing, man. It's gotta be on. He's like, you're nuts. Gives me the key. I go in there, I clean the whole place with my kids and we're pulling staples and wanted to look nice. I get the wires done. So we have a show and I say all this because we play, we get about 150 people there, maybe 50 to 150. I don't know, we could watch the video. And Corey Taylor's there and we throw down.

• 55:08Rick Rubin?

  What's your reaction?

• 55:09Speaker 01

  People are just like, we're a lot scarier. Okay, I mean.

• 55:14Rick Rubin?

  How could you be scary?

• 55:15Speaker 01

  We're scary because we have no, there's no rules.

• 55:20Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  And we have no care of the outcome. We have no money.

• 55:24Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 55:24Speaker 01

  We have no fame. We only have each other.

• 55:26Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 55:27Speaker 01

  It's us against you.

• 55:28Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 55:29Speaker 01

  And I'm gonna take these sparks and I'm gonna fly sparks over the crowd. I'm gonna do it and you can't stop me. I know it's Des Moines, Iowa, and I'm probably gonna go to jail, but this is what's happening. Ah, so we were just, we were, you know, the original singer wore a fur that used to be my, my aunt's, like the shawl. It had all these minks and he wore it over long underwear and then he'd go get Boon's Berry wine and gaff tape it up and it was scary. We were slower and we just, we had a thing and people couldn't move. And we would always come in through the front. So we'd start the sampling and everyone would move and then we would come in through the front

• 56:13Speaker 01

  and I, you know, clown would show up.

• 56:15Rick Rubin?

  Push your way through the crowd.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  And I, I'd push some biggest guy could just get my hands on his face and go, and he'd be like, turn around and then he'd go, oh my God, what is this? And you know, there he would be. We get onstage. Corey Taylor was at the first show, comes up to me afterwards and he goes, "Bro, that just changed my life. We're playing tomorrow. We don't have an opener. Do you guys wanna play?" And I was like, "Yeah, let me talk to the band. We don't do any, I don't do anything that's not planned."

• 56:44Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 56:45Speaker 01

  But if I can get ahold of everyone.

• 56:47Rick Rubin?

  Until the show starts.

• 56:48Speaker 01

  That's right. That's right. That's right. Absolutely. So I tell him, "Everyone's still here. Maybe we can plan this. Okay? Because I'll just leave the fucking equipment here and we'll come in and throw down." So it works out. So we open up for Stone Sour. You know, and I don't know if people know that. I'm proud of this, you know?

• 57:07Rick Rubin?

  That's great.

• 57:07Speaker 01

  And because that shows you how invested Corey was in his own career. You know, that's his other band and we.

• 57:15Rick Rubin?

  And that band predates Slipknot.

• 57:16Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, 100%. And I, I'm so proud of that.

• 57:20Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 57:20Speaker 01

  So we open up and they play. We have a great night. More people come. They have a crowd. We get done. Corey's like, this guy comes up and goes, "Hey." I want you and Corey's band to play over at this house. We're getting kicked out and it's getting demolished. So we're gonna break it up. And I was like, it's not planned. We're not doing it. I'm not doing it. It sounds risky. Like, what do you mean it's getting demolished? I'm like, no, no, no. So I, I decline. I'm like, two's enough. We're gonna regroup. So everyone goes to the party. I got kids. I go home and I get a call three in the morning. It's Paul Gray. He's like, my brother got arrested at that party and so did my best friend Frank. Go bail him out. I was like, get out of here. What do you mean go bail him out?

• 58:05Speaker 01

  He's like, go bail him out. You got the money. I'm like, man, how much is it? He's like, you know, it seemed like a million dollars. It's like 350 bucks. I was like, all right, I'll see what I can do. So I go over to my dad. I'm like, I'm sorry, man. Got a couple of bros in jail. He's like, no problem. Can't have your friends in jail. Gives me the money. I go down. Cops aren't very nice, you know? I'm like, hey, I'm here to do this. They're like, sit down. They'll be out here in about an hour. So who's there? Corey Taylor, sitting right there. And I go, fancy seeing you. He goes, yeah, who are you here bailing out? I'm like, Tony Gray, Frank Plumlee. He's like, yeah, I'm here to get Junior. And Corey Taylor and I got to sit down for two hours and talk. He didn't know, but I was like, where are you from?

• 58:50Speaker 01

  Where's your mom? Where's your dad? Did you go to high school? How long you been singing? What's your favorite music? What do you want to do when you grow up? What are you doing with Stone Sour? You know, I just really enjoyed his company. We just got off so well. And then when the time came, everything, all hell was breaking loose with our original singer. We already had a crowd of 1,500 people probably. And all hell broke.

• 59:14Rick Rubin?

  How long did that take?

• 59:15Speaker 01

  You know, we were big. I started the band when I was 26 and I helped get it signed right at 29. And I was on the road at 30. So a couple of years. And then he quit. Well, he was on his way out and everybody was like, what are we gonna do? And I'm like, there's only one thing to do. If we're serious. They're like, what? I'm like, Corey Taylor. You know, everyone's like, that'll never happen. You know, he likes this type of music. I'm like. Man, I'll go talk to him. So we went from a studio, Mick Thompson, guitar player, shows up unannounced. And it's like, hey, guys, what's going on? We're like, Andy's more or less just quit the band. And we're gonna go over to the Adal Portium, which is a porn store where Corey worked nighttime shift.

• 1:00:00Speaker 01

  I'm gonna ask him if he wants to try out for the band. And he's like, what? So we drive out there and Joey and Mick go do their thing. And I go up and Corey sees us from the security camera. And he's like, what are these dudes doing here? We always wore jackets, Slipknot jackets with numbers. So people would be like, there's three of them here.

• 1:00:17Rick Rubin?

  When did the numbers start?

• 1:00:19Speaker 01

  Real early. Because it just, we wanted a gang, man, you know? It's not about Sean or Paul, it's just like.

• 1:00:26Rick Rubin?

  Number six?

• 1:00:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, number six, you know, clown. It's like, quit talking to me about my name. It's like, I'm here to talk about Slipknot. And this is one way to get to it. But I'm just number six. You know what I mean? It's like, we're not here to talk about my military school upbringing. We're here to talk about my dedication with my brothers. So get with it. Ask me another sports question and I'm out. It's just that simple. And that's how we did it. So numbers, barcodes, couple logos. I wrote a piece.

• 1:00:53Rick Rubin?

  Was your number six related to the prisoner at all?

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  No. You know, I was pretty diverse in numerology and in a lot of tarot, six is the sun and nine is the moon. And, you know, I just always knew six was nine upside down. And I just felt like everything happens at six, you know, from zero to nine and come back around. You know, one insinuates two. If you have two, why not three? Four is church. Five, things are molecular. Six, it's happening. It's going on. It's on fire. Seven, we're on our way. We're flying through the solar system. Eight, getting ready to settle out. Nine, we might as well be at zero. Insinuates rebirth. So I just.

• 1:01:38Speaker 01

  Like all things in Slipknot, I let all choose first.

• 1:01:42Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:43Speaker 01

  I remember Mick going, "I'm number seven. It's my lucky number. I will, no one else can be seven." And it's like, dude, you're seven. Joey's like, "I'm number one." And I'm like, "Of course you are. Of course you are." Paul's like, "Well, if he gets to be number one, I'm number two." And I'm like, "You guys are both dorks." I'm like, "Go ahead. You gotta be number one and two." They're like, "What are you?" And I'm like, "You know what I am. Everybody knows what I am." And everybody had already decided. And I'm like, they're like, "What? What hasn't been taken?" And I'm like, "Six, man." They're like, "Because six is a pretty, it's a number that's around a lot."

• 1:02:19Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:20Speaker 01

  And, you know, they take it dark, but I don't care. Take it biblical. Take it where you need to, because I am. It's what I've established, and it's the only thing that's gonna represent me. And then Sid got in the band, and we're like, you know, him and I were having a little moment. He's very challenging, which I like. He pushes.

• 1:02:40Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:40Speaker 01

  And you should be pushed. And he's pushing me a little bit on the numbers, right? I go, "So what number are you?" Because I'm ready to shut him down. "You're not gonna be 12. You're not gonna be 13." He just looks me right in the face and goes, "Zero." And at that moment, zero hadn't even crossed my mind. And when he took it, it was like pages were written in a Bible. It was like, "Of course you are. Yeah." So if you think about it, we're nine guys, but we're zero through eight. And then, when the singer left, we had to have a singer. That added a number because we had to get someone to play the drums, because Corey wasn't gonna play those drums like the original singer. Then Craig was an original guitar player who replaced Donny.

• 1:03:23Speaker 01

  And when he left, it was like, "Don't leave. Just be a sampler. Do the web stuff. Be proactive, but you do the 808s. You do the 'Here Comes the Pain.' Sid will do the scratching, the jungle." And then Sid came in, and that's when I was telling you, Joey, it'd just be like, "Nine? What are we doing?" Because Joey literally would be like, "They're not gonna give us enough tour support." I'm like, "What the fuck is tour support, my lady?" It's like, what is tour support? He's like, you're so weird, like, you don't know. And I'm like, what is it you want? He's like, I want to get signed. I'm like, what does that mean? He's like, I want to get a record label. And I was like, do you mean like the big W on the back of Diver Down, Warner Brothers? He's like, exactly.

• 1:04:07Speaker 01

  I'm like, well, yeah, I like that label, Interscope. And he's like, no, I'm gonna get you a list. I'm like, bro, I'll just go to a bank and get a loan. He's like, it doesn't work that way. I'm like, well, how's it work? He's like, they set up interviews. They, I'm like, you know too much. You know, I'm like, you're so dorky. You're like, what are you talking about? Like, money spends. You want a bus, we'll get a bus. Like, he's like, you're dumb, get this. So I had to learn, and I still have the piece of paper. He wrote down all the labels. American was there, there was all kinds of stuff, but it was Roadrunner first, and then it was Interscope second. Cause I'm an art guy, and Manson was over there, TVA on the radio. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  So I was like, if we're gonna get big, let's get big like that. Let's be art and, and, you know, let's not get held down where I'm wearing makeup for my whole career. And then all the bands, I'll leave their names out of it, but all the bands, man, they hated on us.

• 1:05:07Rick Rubin?

  Why?

• 1:05:07Speaker 01

  They're like, well, there's jealousy, because we just threw down. We annihilated anything in our path.

• 1:05:13Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:14Speaker 01

  Even our parents. You get on my stage, you're going down. I tell Cameron, I'm like, you get on this stage, I'm, I'm gonna dropkick you and I'm gonna put you in my legs until I squeeze something out of you. And they're like, whatever. I'd dropkick him, I'd have a camera guy on the floor, he'd be tapping out. I'd be like, bro, this is Slipknot's stage, man. This isn't for kids. This is, I leave my family to come up here for God, and God tonight is 50 minutes. It's not even 60 minutes, man. I drove 12 hours to get here in a broken down bus. Get off my stage, I'm gonna live life, so.

• 1:05:52Rick Rubin?

  Would everyone else participate in the mayhem?

• 1:05:57Speaker 01

  Oh, man. Rick, the best you could ever see Slipknot is on a stage this big, right here. We played on stages from that window to this window. We're like guillotines.

• 1:06:09Speaker 01

  Just, you're like, how are they not hitting heads?

• 1:06:13Rick Rubin?

  So many people on such a small stage.

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  We are just so connected. The one thing we do is that stage. I'm only speaking for me.

• 1:06:22Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, but you feel like the best version of Slipknot is on the stage.

• 1:06:26Speaker 01

  We are truly remarkable.

• 1:06:29Rick Rubin?

  It's performance.

• 1:06:30Speaker 01

  It's truly us against everyone for ourselves. It's every man in the band saying, I'm gonna give 190 for me because I worked hard to get here. And if I don't, this is, I might as well go get a chili dog and ride that ride and go watch something I don't wanna watch.

• 1:06:52Rick Rubin?

  Has anyone ever gotten hurt at a show?

• 1:06:54Speaker 01

  Oh, man. See this? This is a broken bicep, ripped the rubber band right in half. I grabbed a keg. I designed my keg to not have recoil. And it was like a possession had come. I had grabbed the keg and I was so connected to frequency and life and love. And I grabbed the keg. And on my parents' grave, something pulled it back. It can't pull back. It's not designed to pull back. It's got limp cables. And it pulled back my arm, bent an L, and I ripped the bicep muscle.

• 1:07:36Speaker 01

  The rubber bands, there's two of them, right here, hands, bicep. And it was like lightning. It was like I got shot in the head with lightning. It was like a giant storm of lightning. It hurt. It was very quick, but it overtook my whole body, that pain. And it was gone. And I was like, I broke my arm. I broke my arm. And then I was like, no, I can move my fingers. Oh, maybe I'm moving my fingers because, you know, I'm one.

• 1:08:01Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:01Speaker 01

  And maybe, you know, maybe this shit's screwed. And then I went up to my drums and I saw that there was a certain way I couldn't move and I had no idea. And people were like vomiting. I'd be like, hey, is there something wrong with my arm? And people would be like, brrrr.

• 1:08:19Rick Rubin?

  It's your mangle.

• 1:08:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. I wake up in Virginia the next day. They get me a doctor and the doctor's like, you need surgery right away. I'm like, not in Virginia, no offense.

• 1:08:31Speaker 01

  They're like, "Bro, you can't do any more shows." I'm like, "Listen to me, man." "I have a doctor in LA, okay? This guy takes 18 vials of blood. He punishes me. He is gonna give me a referral, okay? No, I just need to know so I can call him." He's like, "Oh, you're broke in half, man." And I did eight shows. I did eight shows with that. Wow. And the reason why I could do it is because I could hold a stick. I don't need a bicep. If I could push this against and just go, "Don't use a bicep. Use your wrist." Yeah. And then this guy, it's like, "Bro, you need to be on fire." He's got a work card. I'd throw him up in the air and, you know, and I'd be like,

• 1:09:16Speaker 01

  and I'd play my parts. But at least three, four times a show, I'd move wrong and then lightning, you know? So I had to get a surgery and I have a herniated disc right now. I'm in so much pain all day and, yeah. I mean, Sid, oh, he jumped off, broke his heels like the sun, like, wow. But he landed evenly and broke both his heels. You know, just, I mean, like this, which was, they said is great because it could heal evenly. But can you imagine? He did every show. You know how we did that? He'd crawl out and people would just be like sick to their stomach. They'd be so scared of that.

• 1:10:00Speaker 01

  He'd be like, just flying across. Or I'd bring him out in a wheelchair and then I'd dump it. I'd be like, you know? So we adorn our missiles, our detonations or whatever. I'd have to say one thing I want to say about stories, you know? One thing I've learned as I've gotten older, you know? Everybody kind of wants to change the narrative a little bit. And I have to do my best to say out loud, I've lived this experience, but I can only recall it the way I remember. And You know how the industry and the world just tries to push you to say "I" and "me" and "I did this" and "it's me"

• 1:10:42Speaker 01

  and so I just try to do my best to keep everybody involved in it less "I" and "me" and more "shared" because that's the way I feel it all is anyway Of course It doesn't matter if I dropped a FedEx off, it was for the band

• 1:11:00Speaker 05

  So much of today's life happens on the web. Squarespace is your home base for building your dream presence in an online world. Designing a website is easy, using one of Squarespace's best-in-class templates. With the built-in style kit, you can change fonts, imagery, margins, and menus. So your design will be perfectly tailored to your needs. Discover unbreakable creativity with Fluid Engine, a highly intuitive drag-and-drop editor. No coding or technical experience is required. Understand your site's performance with in-depth website analytics tools.

• 1:11:44Speaker 05

  Squarespace has everything you need to succeed online. Create a blog, monetize a newsletter, make a marketing portfolio, launch an online store. The Squarespace app helps you run your business from anywhere. Track inventory and connect with customers while you're on the go. Whether you're just starting out or already managing a successful brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create and customize a beautiful website. Visit Squarespace.com/Tetra and get started today.

• 1:12:29Rick Rubin?

  Who's the first member of the band to pass away?

• 1:12:32Speaker 01

  Paul.

• 1:12:33Rick Rubin?

  And when was that?

• 1:12:34Speaker 01

  You know, Rick, I try not to remember.

• 1:12:36Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:36Speaker 01

  It's been, it's been over 10 years now.

• 1:12:40Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:40Speaker 01

  I reunited with his daughter October. She was in her mom's belly when he passed and I wanted to wait until she was a little bit older. So I've taken her to the Grammys and she's 13. So it's been a minute.

• 1:12:57Rick Rubin?

  And he was the person that you started with?

• 1:12:59Speaker 01

  Yep. Yeah, he's, he's the whole reason I'm sitting here.

• 1:13:04Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:05Speaker 01

  He hijacked me for my art career.

• 1:13:08Rick Rubin?

  What do you do when that happens?

• 1:13:11Speaker 01

  So many people innately wanted to say so blindly, well, you know, Paul would want you to go on. And I wouldn't say much. And then finally I had enough and I'm like, did anyone think that maybe I might not want to go on without my friend? And, and just to be honest, sitting here today, man, I mean, you know, I don't know how much more longer I have because it's just the new guys, they're not new guys. They're, they're people. They're my friends and I, I got them in.

• 1:13:42Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:43Speaker 01

  And they're great. They're wonderful. I love them and we have such a great time and good things are happening. But it's no better than writing that song in a basement. It's certainly no better without one of my best friends, who was the genius. Him and Joey, they're two of the greatest hard rock writers of all time. And here I am, you know, the, the art guy, you know, and probably hated the most because I have to do hard things. I have to be part of hard decisions and I'm okay with doing that because I'm not going to live lies.

• 1:14:24Speaker 01

  I, for myself, I have to live truth. So I'm willing to partake in hard decisions in life, you know, but. We, I guess we, we did it, you know, and we, we, instead of writing an album and instead of doing anything, we went on tour and did the grieving with our, our fans. So we probably toured a couple of years independently of an album or anything, just to put his bass on stage and have two minutes of silence.

• 1:14:52Rick Rubin?

  That must've felt great.

• 1:14:53Speaker 01

  Ah, it was, what was really nice was derailing ourselves off of the big machine for love and, and reality, the human condition. Like, don't tell me what I got to do, you know? You made me feel important. Now I'm awake, so I'm really deadly now. And if you're not careful, this is what we're gonna do. I don't need an album. We don't need anything. We're, we are who we are. Book a show. And everyone felt the same, but we, we made a thing of it. And-

• 1:15:25Rick Rubin?

  So would you say the shows were like a tribute to him?

• 1:15:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, they all were. Every day. We're like, Denver, what's up? We haven't been here since Paul's passed. What's up? Boom, this is for Paul. Big banners, things.

• 1:15:38Rick Rubin?

  Beautiful.

• 1:15:38Speaker 01

  Nice. And, and no, you know, I wouldn't let people ask me questions about it. This was life.

• 1:15:44Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:46Speaker 01

  Really hard, man. We, uh, you know, I got the call at my house and I drove my car. I, I was doing laundry and I remember I had to put on these Adidas, Italian Adidas that I had. They were football shoes. They weren't doing it. I remember like everything was gone and like I had to go see my friend in these weird clothes because everything was whatever. And I was so mad. It wasn't a fashion show. I wasn't comfortable. I remember pulling up to the place and I didn't put my car in park.

• 1:16:17Rick Rubin?

  Starts rolling away.

• 1:16:18Speaker 01

  It was just pushing against the curb.

• 1:16:21Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:22Speaker 01

  I had already walked to the back of it. I was like, whoa, whoa. People were like, you're fucking, your car. And I was like, I was just out.

• 1:16:29Rick Rubin?

  Gone.

• 1:16:30Speaker 01

  And then, you know, I saw his wife. She was eight months pregnant. And she started screaming, why is there a clown? Why is there a detective here? And I looked over and there's this great big man. He's just, he's straight up like Clint Eastwood. Like, had the suit, the-

• 1:16:48Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 1:16:48Speaker 01

  Had the handle, the gray suit, the badge on the belt, you know, dirty hairy. And he's walking our way. He's a big dude. He looks official, like different.

• 1:17:00Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:01Speaker 01

  He's not 5-0. Like this is some other shit. I see him to see what she's talking about. And then I look at her and she's going down. She's just on her way down. So I run over there and I put my arm under her belly and if I remember right, I got around her in the back and then I'm like, I started telling her immediately, like, you're pregnant. You, you, whatever, you gotta breathe right now. We're not doing this. This isn't it. So we, we got into a motion and I was able to get her down and you know, then all the worst things from there. I went in, I thought I was gonna get

• 1:17:40Speaker 01

  to see my friend. This guy took me in a stairway and I realized he was questioning me. And I was crying and I got up and I go, you're questioning me. And he goes, son, listen to me. We don't know how your friend passed. You could be a drug dealer. You could be trying to go in there, erase some evidence. I'm like, you're right. I'm out of here. I'm not talking to you anymore.

• 1:18:06Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:06Speaker 01

  But thank you. I hope, you know, this all works out. So what a cliche in rock and roll too, you know, like, we did the album with you, Subliminal Verses, and then the next album was All Hope Is Gone. And I did a photo shoot in an abandoned school and above the doorway it said, All Hope Is Gone. And I took a picture with my gun. And it was just my way of the world, just letting everybody know that on my sideshow, I'm paranoid, by myself, only child, freaked out, leave me alone. I didn't make it through school. That's why I live here. And it says, All Hope Is Gone. And then I saw my pictures and I told Paul Brown, the photographer, I go, hey, man,

• 1:18:48Speaker 01

  go back to the school and take the ego heads. I made these papier-mache heads of our faces and for death masks that we used for our album, for Vermillion. We would wear death masks. So I made these giant death masks. I called them ego heads because when we're not together, we think highly of ourselves. And we just get out. So I wanted to get together and light those fuckers on fire. So, anyway.

• 1:19:17Speaker 01

  I told him, I go, take the heads to the stairway, under that All Hope Is Gone, and get a picture, it's worthy. I go, I go, I'm not a real fan of that. I go, I'll put money that some general said that, or some lieutenant on a beach. All hope is gone, you know? I go, I don't want them to do that. He does, and he comes back to show everybody the pictures. And I go, watch this, Paul. I go, these guys are gonna wanna call the album this. So we throw it down, and Corey Taylor goes, All Hope Is Gone, let's call the album that. And Joey goes, Joey goes, I was gonna say that. And I looked at Joey, and I go, but you didn't. And I was like, yeah, and he's like, I swear to God. I was like, whatever, man.

• 1:20:00Speaker 01

  The history books will say that Corey Taylor said it. And, and, and I told him, I go, I knew both you guys were gonna say this, and I get it, we're in Slipknot. I go, but even the clown thinks there's hope. I'm like, do you think we should be the kind of band that doesn't promote hope? Seriously, are we so weird, pushing ourselves so much to be anti? What about our kids, man, out there that carve, and that we have to talk to, and get them straight, you know? And they're like, it's All Hope Is Gone. Paul died after that tour, and I knew. I was like, oh,

• 1:20:38Speaker 01

  okay. It wasn't for the kids. It was, what a, I'm like, what a cliche. I'm like, this is horrible. This is VH1. I can't stand it. This is absolutely no good. Took me, I stopped jamming all together with everybody that I was doing. I just thought I'd study myself with Slipknot, see how I could do. And then, you know, it, it turned out the other way with Joey, you know, same thing. It just... It kept going, you know, and I'm number one and I'm number two. If you're number one, then I'm number two. Okay? Guys should be careful. Wow. Yeah, it's that real. I'm not important, but it's real.

• 1:21:23Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. The web I'm in and the voltage that we've let out in the form of frequency, electricity and the loss and the love and it's real in a way that hurts. And people die, you know what I mean? But like, why do I deserve to be here? When two of my favorite hard rock writers of all time? What? It's just a weird path life.

• 1:21:57Speaker 06

  In a world of artificial highs and harsh stimulants, there is something different, something clean, something precise. Athletic nicotine. Not the primitive products found behind convenience store counters. Not the aggressive buzz that leaves you jittery, but a careful calibration of clean energy and focused clarity. Athletic nicotine. The lowest dose tobacco-free nicotine available. Made entirely in the USA. No artificial sweetness, just pure, purposeful elevation. Athletic nicotine is a performance nootropic. Athletic nicotine is a tool for shifting mindsets. Athletic nicotine is a partner in pursuit of excellence.

• 1:22:42Speaker 06

  Slow release, low dose, gradual lift. Sustained energy, soft landing, inspired results. Athletic nicotine. More focus, less static. Athletic nicotine. More clarity, less noise. Athletic nicotine. More accuracy, less anxiety. Athletic nicotine. From top athletes pushing their limits to artists pursuing their vision. Athletic nicotine offers the lift you've been looking for. Learn more at athletic nicotine dot com slash tetra and experience next level performance with athletic nicotine.

• 1:23:32Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about the audience.

• 1:23:34Speaker 01

  Best people in the world. I was telling the story last night that I sort of wanted a crowd. At the military school, you weren't supposed to wear rock and roll shirts underneath your dress shirts. So I always loved the kids who had the guts to wear the Metallica shirt underneath. I was too scared of getting beat and I had a mouth and I just had to be good as much as I could. But man, I'd be like, underneath that Oxford, there's a freaking Metallica shirt and creeping death and here we go. That's who I wanted maggots to be. I wanted, I want to make music for the people that absolutely needed it if they were put in a situation they didn't care for. And that meant it was their life and that's who I wanted to be. So for instance, we played the Iowa State Fairground, used to be the

• 1:24:19Speaker 01

  biggest fair, one of the biggest fairs in the world. We finally played there after all my years and the city of Des Moines so worried that all the black shirts are going to come to the fair. And oh no, what's going to happen with this, this devil music or, or this heavy, whatever they, they think it is. Okay. Well, guess what? The black shirts come in, they do an aerial, you can see it filtering in the hog house, moving over to the chicken coop over here by A and W root beer. Look at it. It's just, just taking over the grounds. Now, one arrest, not one fight, not one death, no one's hurt, nothing, zero.

• 1:25:03Speaker 01

  No cops, nothing. The next night, it's some country band. We got fistfights. Someone goes to jail because they brought a gun and all that hardcore country is getting it done. And it's the fair. So little bit of drinking, little bit of whatever, but not anything on the slipknots. So what I could tell you is,

• 1:25:25Speaker 01

  These are people that need music.

• 1:25:27Rick Rubin?

  Do you feel like the music is therapeutic?

• 1:25:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, they need music more than they need to give their opinion about someone looking down on them in front of the popcorn stand.

• 1:25:37Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:38Speaker 01

  You are not gonna get in my way of my favorite band. I worked so hard at my store that I'm here and I'm not gonna get in trouble because of you. I'm gonna go get my church and I'm gonna feel better about myself tomorrow. And I'm gonna go do the best I can, because that's why we are as big as we are is because people know that we don't do anything for anybody but ourselves. And they trust that. They might not like every decision we make, but they know, but because we made it and we stand by it, we're a trustworthy organization that's not gonna overturn itself on you. We're here because of the kids, you know, the fans, the community.

• 1:26:23Rick Rubin?

  It's interesting that people who don't understand the music view it as a negative thing when you see how much people need it and love it. And maybe it's the only place they feel like they belong. I'm gonna stop crying.

• 1:26:38Speaker 01

  It's true, man. And Rick, the reason why they, the ones that talk that don't get it, it's just because they're void. They didn't have it. It's not their fault. I don't even know if music can save it, you know? We are the world.

• 1:26:53Rick Rubin?

  You feel more disconnected than a charity. Tell me about the art you make outside of music.

• 1:26:59Speaker 01

  It's a problem. The art I make outside is a problem because that's what I was gonna do. Is I wanted to get a PhD and tenure at some fancy college. I was gonna wear some weird glasses. I was gonna know more about Salvador Dali and Matisse and Edvard Munch than anyone on the planet. Impressionistic painting was gonna be my expertise. If the History Channel needed an expert, they were gonna call me. I was gonna know everything and I was already on my way. The only thing keeping me is I got some sort of... Beach thing. I think I just didn't pay attention in all the classes I needed to.

• 1:27:40Speaker 01

  So if you're gonna be into impressionistic painting, you better be able to pronounce French painters' names and cathedrals and stuff. And I just, that was gonna be a lot of work. But I wanna, you know, I wanna date college girls and have fun, drink beer, and just be that real liberal crazy professor. So Slipknot destroys everything in my path. You know?

• 1:28:04Speaker 01

  And I told people I could say that to you, and I told people that you were one of the few that would understand and would laugh.

• 1:28:10Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:11Speaker 01

  Because it's just, you know, what, what, what are you gonna do when you make, when you help create something that gives as much as it does? And it literally powerhouses. I could go on and on. I, right now, I'm currently suffering from Slipknot. Just get out of the way. You know, like, you're not doing that. How dare you think you're gonna do that? I don't.

• 1:28:36Rick Rubin?

  Would you say that Slipknot has a life of its own?

• 1:28:39Speaker 01

  Oh. It's so big, bro. It's so...

• 1:28:47Speaker 01

  It's fucking, it's like Van Halen VH. It's like the Van Halen logo.

• 1:28:53Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:53Speaker 01

  You don't even need to see A-N-Halen. You just see

• 1:28:59Speaker 01

  and you're like, God, I'm, look at that. That's a wave. It's like a Peterbilt semi, you know? The dog and stuff like Van Halen, that's how big we are. It's like tribal S, like Slipknot, you know? You hear one bar of tone on the radio, like, could it be? You hear that Slipknot tone, one bar. Could this be new Slipknot? That's big, you know?

• 1:29:23Rick Rubin?

  And now you see people all over the world.

• 1:29:26Speaker 01

  All over the world.

• 1:29:27Rick Rubin?

  Wearing masks. It's a whole movement.

• 1:29:31Speaker 01

  It is. And yet...

• 1:29:36Speaker 01

  That's probably my zero, right? Like, it's all so big and I'm just zero. Like, you know what? I mean, how do you deal with it? You know, like, I haven't found the comfortableness in like, you know, we're big and it's bigger than me and I'm the clown and here I am, but so what? You know what I mean? It's just weird. It's, I learned so much of things I can't put into words to what I would call, people are just grinding. I'm, I'm picking up life skills.

• 1:30:08Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:09Speaker 01

  You know, I've met a couple million people.

• 1:30:11Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:11Speaker 01

  Like, pardon me if I barf, your hands really wet, uh, you know? I love you and I'll give you the shirt off my back, but I watched you pick your nose. You know, I've watched you for 40 minutes and now you're here and you're like, you know, man, like, I'm gonna vomit, but give me a hug, I love you. So it's just, man, who knew, man? Who knew? I've already accepted that I'm not gonna get anything I want in life. I'm, I'm married 33 years. I'm blessed of my best, my favorite person in the world is my wife. Four kids, two girls, two boys. I, I've got it all, but who knows?

• 1:30:47Rick Rubin?

  Tell me more about the art you make. I know you make art outside of Slipknot, though.

• 1:30:51Speaker 01

  I, I think I can explain it really quick. Like, I've been really like trying to solidify my art quicker in case anything ever happens to me. And I haven't done very good speaking about it because people make me angry. So I go right to 11 and, and I just, that's not the way to do it. I, I should have slowed down and, you know, I should have let people know, like, I would never use AI to write a Slipknot song because why would I ever do that? I don't need to do that. But what I do is I look for the glitch in anything in life.

• 1:31:27Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:28Speaker 01

  And there's glitches in AI. And I picked up very early that it was gonna get smarter. So I figured the early days when, you know, you could get 30 fingers, that this is the, where we need to be. So I'm way ahead of the curve. So what I did was I just sort of started art that...

• 1:31:51Speaker 01

  Encompassed everything.

• 1:31:52Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:53Speaker 01

  So I started with some words. I went deep in my head. What do I want to see? What's the collection of the familiarity of life? The database, the machine. Hello, I'm your pocket producer. What would you like to see?

• 1:32:06Speaker 01

  And all of a sudden. And I'm like, oh, my God. Who knew? But it's not anything. It's not human.

• 1:32:15Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:15Speaker 01

  It's interesting to the human. But it's not that I'm going to even look at it again. So I start there. I do a big print. And then I get a stencil of it. And then I spray paint over it, just slowly destroying it. The human on de-manufacturing on all these other layers that could be judged as, I don't know, cheating or not creating. I don't know, but I know that I'm going to get in the machine. And so by the end of it, I've gone kindergarten. So by the end of it, I've introduced poetry, script, coding, prompts, painting, photography.

• 1:32:59Speaker 01

  But basically, everything I try to master as a Renaissance man. I get it all in there and then I end with finger painting. And I fold it. And then I end it and that's the last layer on that conglomerate of learning in life. The first layer was the recent layer of teaching of reality. I'm sure when we went green screen, people were as easily angry as they are with AI. Why do they allow the green screen in Marvel movies?

• 1:33:31Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:31Speaker 01

  It's fake as hell. So that's what I'm doing as of lately is combining all my talents and smacking them down into one knowledge that makes you really have to decide. I think when you take someone who doesn't need AI and can create anything, but then takes AI, creates, and then creates everything and brings everything of one canvas. What happens is hopefully I'm going to make you think more about all of it.

• 1:34:05Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:06Speaker 01

  Instead of just, AI is taking away jobs and it's not real. It's just like, look, I don't disagree, okay, but.

• 1:34:15Speaker 01

  Everything in life created by humans has a possibility. And it is doing good things. Maybe it's doing more bad things. I don't know.

• 1:34:25Rick Rubin?

  But it's a tool.

• 1:34:26Speaker 01

  It's a tool. And I'm telling you as a human being, that tool is no good without you.

• 1:34:32Rick Rubin?

  A hundred percent.

• 1:34:33Speaker 01

  It's no good without you. It doesn't print. It doesn't translate. It doesn't sing. It's not in time. It's not even real. But it is a good start.

• 1:34:42Rick Rubin?

  It's a tool.

• 1:34:43Speaker 01

  Especially if you can't get someone on the phone. Or, or maybe money's a little, you just need to get some things. I love the idea of getting a head start. So. I'm really into that. And then there's a game Minecraft, you've had to have heard of it. So Minecraft gives you the ability to use the engine to make your own. And so I have invented a world known as Vern Earth. And I've taken the engine of Minecraft and I have flipped it. Cause I know a little bit of coding from the day, I'm fifty six, I was there when it all started. So I've taken Minecraft and turned it on its head. I think it's probably one of the biggest pieces of art I've ever done in my life. Because I've gone in and changed their parameters.

• 1:35:26Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:26Speaker 01

  So for example, they have a pig, right? I went in, changed the skin of the pig to glass. But what I did was I took their glass block. And I took the skin of the glass block, their art, off the glass block, and I gave it to the pig. So now the pig is glass. But their glass block, not some glass block I made, I'm using theirs. So you have that familiarity of their color.

• 1:35:52Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:52Speaker 01

  And their scratch. You're getting mine because I made the glass big. But I'm using their block, so you still feel comfortable within their world. But what I have created. Oh my, I never knew.

• 1:36:04Rick Rubin?

  Can other people see it?

• 1:36:05Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah. People play, I got kids playing with me now. It's online.

• 1:36:09Rick Rubin?

  Oh, great.

• 1:36:09Speaker 01

  I've released it. It's called Vern Earth and you need a Microsoft account, like you would any game.

• 1:36:14Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:14Speaker 01

  And you need to, to buy Minecraft.

• 1:36:17Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:17Speaker 01

  And then once you own both of those, like you would Steam or any game. You type in my server and then, and then you. You come on and see the clowns on at three thirty in the morning making an iron farm. And you're like, hi, do you have cows? I'm like, I'll bring some over. And I go over and grab some cows and I'm helping you herd it. And you're like a Slipknot fan going, uh.

• 1:36:39Rick Rubin?

  Amazing.

• 1:36:40Speaker 01

  Is this real? I'm like, of course it's real.

• 1:36:42Rick Rubin?

  How much time do you get to spend doing that?

• 1:36:44Speaker 01

  I spent half the day on it. I'm insane. It's all dedication to my mom. She was into science fiction. She had a world and I made her, she passed of dementia and Alzheimer's and T I strokes. And I had asked her if she ever written, had written a book around science fiction. She said no. And I asked her to write one before she passed. So she did. And it's very intense and it's too intense for me to take on without a team. So I decided that I would birth the world from it. And as I got more organized, then we could say that this was from here. And then I could bring people over there. So that's, I've been working on it four years.

• 1:37:25Speaker 01

  I'm on it every minute I can be. If my wife is watching TV, I will be working on Vern Earth. It's like a soldering board, but it's digital. The things that go on in Minecraft, you can't even, it's based off of automation. So you can trap the automation and you can get the machine making things for you out of your creation. Then you show up and you're like, you made an iron farm and I have all this iron since I woke up and it's mind blowing, the creativity and the mind that goes on.

• 1:38:01Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:01Speaker 01

  In this and, and I, all my kids played it and I made a roller coaster and it's all Slipknot themed and I'm really trying to help behavioral health and mental health awareness. So I'm there monitoring people, the way they talk and you know, cause I have kids of my own and you know, games aren't, there's a lot of bad stuff that goes on.

• 1:38:27Rick Rubin?

  How has being a father changed you?

• 1:38:30Speaker 01

  Well.

• 1:38:32Speaker 01

  That's a hard one because I'm on a path. I end up telling people these days, don't have kids. Unless you're prepared to look at them one day and realize that you're gonna know that you're not gonna be there for them. And these are the facts that I tell you about. This is what won't let me get up in the morning is these thoughts of not being here for the people that need me. I can't handle these sort of life lessons. So being a dad and losing a child, I just. It's a fragile thing now and it's been ruined. You know, if one of my kids just randomly wants to call me up at 11 at night to say I love you.

• 1:39:15Speaker 01

  I see the name and I just go to negative, you know? I figure this is not a good call this late at night. Somebody's hurt, something. And there's a, I don't know, it can't be a disorder, but I don't think it's a phobia. It's like a. I don't think it's a disease, but there's a thing where people can't be happy. Because they are convinced that something bad's gonna happen one minute. And honestly, I have that. I have that. And it happens to me every week where just two weeks ago, I was in the studio and I was just. Man, I was feeling good. And then my assistant gets a phone call and she's, you know, what? Where are you?

• 1:39:59Speaker 01

  And I was like, who is it? And she's like, Chantel. And my wife fell and cut her head open, 12 staples. And I, I told her, I go, man, I actually was calm. I started relaxing. And right when it happened, you called. And it's not your fault. I'm just telling you, I'm cursed. I guess where I'm at now, really, because I think I'm being groomed to be strong. For the day I need to be strong. And I don't know when that is. I don't know if that's my death day. But life has made me incredibly strong. And I literally drive around in my car laughing.

• 1:40:37Speaker 01

  Thinking, you know, I have no one to talk to. Everyone's human. What's someone gonna tell me that I'm not gonna tell them? You know what I mean? Like, I get it. I've got it. I've already, I've been here. So it's a very frustrating place to know. Like, you can't even bitch. But I know it's for higher purposes, so I go with it. And I'm figuring, wow, I made it this far. Maybe I will make it the whole way.

• 1:41:03Rick Rubin?

  I read somewhere that Rihanna said that Slipknot was her favorite band.

• 1:41:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, I, I wouldn't know where it is now, but a long time ago, she would wear patches. We have a lot, Lady Gaga. We're starting to be pop culture now. You know, we're gonna start having that poster on the wall on the TV show. You know, next to Metallica, next to Guns N' Roses. So it's happening, you know? It is.

• 1:41:27Rick Rubin?

  Do you feel like you're always in creative mode?

• 1:41:30Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. I'm a mess. That's all I am.

• 1:41:33Rick Rubin?

  It's just make stuff.

• 1:41:34Speaker 01

  I, if you could just set me off all day long and then have a cot. And, and just go, you know, you're gonna fall down. And I'll be like, yeah. And then sure enough, you'll come in and I'll, I'll be toast. All I do, I cook, I create. I take a shower, I create. I'm a gardener, so I get to work with succulents and cactuses now.

• 1:41:57Rick Rubin?

  How'd you get into gardening?

• 1:41:59Speaker 01

  My mom was a master gardener. And she always told me that when I understood that I could give life as a man, that I'd get addicted. And, you know, you can give life to a plant from a seed, and I did. Suddenly, that plant, when the raccoon was trying to pick my, my, my tomato, I took it a little personal. I'm like, dude, I grew this thing. You can have a tomato, but you need to ask. He needs to take my stuff.

• 1:42:25Rick Rubin?

  And you can't take them all.

• 1:42:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can't take them all. What are you doing? So I started doing it. I used to run my mom's plants over all the time, and she'd give them funerals. She'd literally go outside with a flower and some water and cry. And I'd be like, God, my mom's weird. But then I got older and I understood. And then, of course, I felt bad for everything I did. But, you know, yeah, Rick, all I do is, all I wanna do is create. That's all I'm good at. I'm not good at anything else.

• 1:43:00Speaker 02

  There's a long tradition of reading sacred texts slowly, allowing each word to settle, echo, and reveal meaning over time. Rather than rushing to conclusions, this practice invites reflection, listening, and attention. For centuries, this repetition has been used to stay close to wisdom. Not by studying words as information, but by receiving them as something lived and experienced over and over again.

• 1:43:39Speaker 02

  This tradition is known as lectio divina. Emerging in early monastic life, it engages Scripture through four gentle movements: reading, reflection, repetition, and rest. A short passage is read; a single phrase is held. Silence becomes part of the practice, creating space for insight to surface naturally. Lectio 365 brings that ancient rhythm into the present moment. Designed for modern life, it offers brief, guided scriptural reflections throughout the day,

• 1:44:23Speaker 02

  to begin with intention, pause at midday, and wind down at night. The readings are less about information gathering and more for returning to wisdom again and again, letting familiar words meet new moments. A modern way to keep biblical wisdom close, quietly present, steady, and alive within everyday life. Lectio 365 is a free resource. Find inspiration there, now and always.

• 1:45:03Speaker 02

  Learn more at lectio365.com.

• 1:45:15Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about the album package where you pull, open the package and there's a mirror.

• 1:45:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, so Iowa sophomore albums end up being highly anticipated for lots of reasons. A lot of people think you're gonna sell out. That's just talk and chirping around you. Jealousy and people, we'll see if you're still as extreme the next album when you get a little money if you do and all this. So I put a goat on the cover and there's a lot of reasons for that. One, you know, I love what goats represent, true billy goats. You know, they piss on themselves, they stink so bad because they're the ones. And they protect everyone and they got an attitude. They get on your car.

• 1:46:04Speaker 01

  They will go through your door, they'll eat your tree, they'll eat a pop can, they'll eat a rock.

• 1:46:11Rick Rubin?

  Anything.

• 1:46:11Speaker 01

  They are, I mean, they're my favorite, okay? And they're pretty rare in Iowa. They're not everywhere. But what it is, is it's the goats on there and everyone's obviously like, look, see devil music. And then the bottom line is you open it up and if you're a good mom or dad and you gotta check it out, make sure there's no blasphemy blasphemy on the inside. You open it up, boom, there's a mirror and you're part of it and I got you. You know why you're there? Because you're a good parent and you're checking it out for your kid, but look, you're a part of it. And so that's a little weird, so it's not a perfect mirror. You know, it's more of like a carnival mirror where you're a little twisted like us. That's because we ask why and that's what we do here.

• 1:46:55Speaker 01

  And why is a hard question for a lot of people if they're, if they're safe in the because. I'm not into because, I'm into learning, you know? I want to know why on everything. So I put a mirror, a portal and you open it up and then the way I designed the paper layout, you gotta take it and you can flick it. And he'll go And then everyone's got a picture to sign because when we were signing our first one, you had to turn pages. I was like, screw that. In stores are like four hours. We gotta move this stuff. So lay it down, everybody's picture, next, you know, sign, next.

• 1:47:36Rick Rubin?

  How would you say the band is the same as when you started? And how has it changed?

• 1:47:43Speaker 01

  We are all wiser. We have all set our ways. There might be a few still looking. There's five OGs. You got the original singer, you got the original two guitar players.

• 1:47:57Speaker 01

  You got the original DJ and you got the clown. Of course, we're friends, but we don't hang. And if others do, I don't know about it.

• 1:48:07Speaker 01

  And it's not that I don't care, but we're best up there and that's when I can love you the most. Because I've got an awful hectic life that I don't think you want to be a part of anyway. You know, there's a lot of, lot of pain. Lately, it's been really nice for everyone to be in their 50s. With age comes wisdom and we're all growing wiser and it's in our benefit. We're able to look at what's happened, the negative, the positive and the embarrassments, the accomplishments, you know, the, the real love of what we're doing. And we're still doing it and, and, and we need to, and we won't do anything else.

• 1:48:50Speaker 01

  You know, I don't know how much longer I can do it. I gotta, I'm in a lot of extreme pain that I can't get in control of because I've given 190% of myself. I miss my dudes. Joey used to get on me, man. He was the one. He made me the best I could ever be. You know, I like to think I did that to him. I used to say we were nemesis because we always just argued, but you know, it's not until someone's gone that you realize they bring the best out of you again. I mean, there's no one in the world that played more drums with Joey than me and Chris Fain. I got to do that. I got to learn from him every night. I got to follow that, that human being.

• 1:49:30Rick Rubin?

  I can't get over the, uh, number one and number two. It's a wild story.

• 1:49:36Speaker 01

  And if you knew, you know, knowing Paul,

• 1:49:38Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:39Speaker 01

  You know, he He would never want to be number one. But he would want number one to recognize that, "Hey, I'm with you, so I'll be number two." So it was straight, sort of, straight fire on ego on the one part.

• 1:49:56Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:56Speaker 01

  And it was just straight love and something else, but they were a team. And, you know, I hate to say, but, you know, Joey really had a hard time with Paul, you know, going. I don't think he ever wanted to write with anyone else. I don't think he ever wanted to jam with anyone else. And his dude was gone, you know? And that's just how it's felt, you know? And then both of them, one and two, you know, you're just, can't write that. You can't understand that. You can't take it away. It was only gonna happen this way. You know, it's so bizarre. I'm still trying to figure it out. You know, we're not gonna.

• 1:50:39Speaker 01

  I mean, I imagine, I was thinking about all the records that you've done when I was told. And I was thinking about the Colt.

• 1:50:47Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:48Speaker 01

  Stuff that I love when I was so young and you were doing it already. And I'm just sitting there listening to Electric and, God, I can't even imagine where you've been and all the souls from Adele to, obviously, Johnny Cash, but even Slayer, whatever, like, just heavy stuff, man. It takes, I do believe in that. I believe there's humans that have an ownership on something and some don't. I don't know if that makes you special.

• 1:51:26Rick Rubin?

  It doesn't.

• 1:51:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And I'm not looking to be special, but man, it'd be nice to like, Just once, like, god damn it, just someone talk to me, just for real, like, I need an alien. Someone just, why do I have to have all the answers already? Why? Why haven't I quit?

• 1:51:46Rick Rubin?

  You know? Does the feeling go away when you're on stage?

• 1:51:49Speaker 01

  Oh, man, I turn into a, I guess, the result of the human condition. I talk to myself, I got a problem with my jaw being open because I got the mask and I'm just talking to myself. No one can see me. So it's like, I just am talking, I'm like, fuck this, you and, you know,

• 1:52:12Speaker 01

  backflip, frontflip, drums, your baseball bats, you know, over here,

• 1:52:20Speaker 01

  just wet, gross, hot dudes up on you slamming so hard your neck feels like it's gonna roll off. It is, god, you know, it's, it's all I have. It's the only thing that's never turns back on me. My wife has never turned her back on me, she will never turn my, her back on me. But if she's ill, if she's ill,

• 1:52:44Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:44Speaker 01

  music is the only thing that's always been there for me and I don't even need to hear it for it to be there for me. It's in here. So, we get it. I gotta have it. I gotta have it. I gotta be so out of it that at two in the morning, when the bus starts, all of a sudden you'll see me go,

• 1:53:07Speaker 01

  I'll take a deep breath and I'll be like, peace, I'm out. Start at nine thirty and at eleven, takes till two in the morning for that, this monster to just get back to reality. And then when I do, oh, I actually sleep.

• 1:53:23Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:23Speaker 01

  You know, so not as good for me, always has been and that's,

• 1:53:27Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:53:27Speaker 01

  I hate that. I hate that it keeps me alive. You know what I mean, Rick? Like, it, it keeps me alive, it makes me drink water, it makes me, it gets the bad smoke that I had once out of me, it gets the, the, the talk, you know, it keeps me alive, it gives me desire, it gives me will, gives me purpose and I can't stand it. It's such a priority of existence.

• 1:53:54Speaker 01

  And I have to do it. I have a skipping heart and I gotta get a surgery. And I found this out after my last tour. I, I went in, I wasn't feeling good and I went in and they, the nurse was trying to get an AKG thing going on me or whatever and it just wasn't happening. I kind of fell asleep and I woke up, I'm like, are you gonna get this thing? And she's like, oh, it's not working. They thought I was having a heart attack right there. Anyway, my heart skips and I apparently, I've taught myself to be like a cross-country runner. So I'm, I'm overweight and my brain is so strong that it's, tells this stuff what to do.

• 1:54:36Speaker 01

  So my standing heart rate at night is 43 and during the day I get down to 33. Hasn't happened since I've been here with you, which is good. Cause I'll go from on to just straight up, I feel like I'm dying. So I gotta get a surgery. It's a very easy surgery. You're usually out on the same day. It's not like they rip you open. This is something about the electricity. But at first they thought maybe I needed a pacemaker and I was like, doc, listen, get a pacemaker. I'm done, right? Touring Slipknot. I go, oh no, you're gonna feel better. And I just, I lost it. I was like, I can't get out of this to save my life.

• 1:55:19Speaker 01

  I'm like, there is nothing, not even my heart. It's gonna be better because of Slipknot. I gotta concierge a doctor because I'm in Slipknot and I'm able to go to levels. And they're like, no, you're gonna feel better. You better get in shape because you gotta do more now. At 56 and it's just like, I just can't believe it, man, that this was me. It's wonderful. I'm, I'm lucky.

• 1:56:09Speaker 01

  Tetra Grammatin is a podcast. Tetra Grammatin is a website. Tetra Grammatin is a whole world of knowledge.

• 1:56:24Speaker 03

  What may fall within the sphere of Tetragrammatin? Counter-culture? Tetragrammatin. Sacred geometry? Tetragrammatin. The avant-garde? Tetragrammatin. Generative art? Tetragrammatin. The tarot? Tetragrammatin. Out-of-print music? Tetragrammatin. Biodynamics? Tetragrammatin. Graphic design? Tetragrammatin. Mythology and magic? Tetragrammatin. Obscure film? Tetragrammatin. Beach culture? Tetragrammatin. Esoteric lectures? Tetragrammatin. Off-the-grid living? Tetragrammatin. Alt spirituality? Tetragrammatin. The canon of fine objects? Tetragrammatin. Muscle cars? Tetragrammatin. Ancient wisdom for a new age.

• 1:57:11Speaker 03

  Upon entering, experience the artwork of the day.

• 1:57:16Speaker 03

  Take a breath, and see where you are drawn.