Pod Insights The School of Greatness 545 Rupi Kaur on Love and Pain, Suffering and Joy About this episode "Suffering and joy are the exact same thing." - Rupi Kaur If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes, video, and more at http://lewishowes.com/545 Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Lewis Howes? This is episode number 545 with number one New York Times bestselling author, Rupi Kaur.
0:09 Lewis Howes? Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.
0:34 Lewis Howes? If you were born with the weakness to fall, you were born with the strength to rise. Rupi Kaur. I'm very excited about this episode. Love connecting with Rupi in Toronto when I got to interview her. And she is a number one New York Times bestselling author and illustrator of two collections of poetry. After completing her degree in rhetoric studies, she published her first collection of poems, Milk and Honey, in 2014. The internationally acclaimed collection sold well over a million copies, gracing the New York Times Bestseller list, week after week, over a year. It has since been translated into over 30 languages.
1:16 Lewis Howes? And her long awaited second collection, The Sun and Her Flowers, was published in 2017. Through this collection, she continues to explore a variety of themes ranging from love, loss, trauma, healing, femininity, migration, revolution. Rupi has performed her poetry across the world. Her photography and art direction are warmly embraced, and she hopes to continue this expression for years to come. And I was so delighted connecting with her. And if you are on the show notes at lewishouse.com/545, you can see the full video, you can see the book that's out right now. Make sure to get a copy. Just loved everything about her. She's got a massive audience on Instagram. So make sure to check out more
2:01 Lewis Howes? about her. But in this interview, we talk about how she handled expectations for the second book to do as well as her first book. Also, Why our idea of success is so skewed? The relationship between suffering and joy. What causes us to become our own enemy? And how to teach yourself to write from a place of love versus pain? And is that possible for us? Very excited about this. Before we dive in, want to give a shout out to our fan and review of the week. This is from Bryn and Baby Riley, who says, I listened to this with my kids in the car on the way to school. So everyone starts the day in a good mood. I own my own business and work from home.
2:45 Lewis Howes? So this gets my mind going and my kids love it. So it's now just a daily routine. My kids are only eight and four, but we have plenty of good tips and advice on this podcast that we can discuss. It's motivating and gets me thinking about ways I can improve. And the advice is just so good. Guests are diverse and I learn something useful every time. Thank you for being an above average lifestyle coach. So Bryn and Baby Riley, listening from the car. Uh, we appreciate you. Thanks so much for your review and for being the fan of the week. And if you guys want a chance of being a fan of the week as well, and getting a shout out on the podcast, then go to the podcast app over on iTunes right now or on your podcast app on your phone.
3:29 Lewis Howes? And it's easier than ever to leave a review. You just scroll down on the scroll of greatness and you can see where you can leave a review right there. You just click one button, leave a review and away you go. So thank you again Bryn and Baby Riley. All right, guys, I'm super pumped. Love this interview with Rupi. Make sure to tag me and Rupi on Instagram story, on Twitter, everywhere on social media right now. I am Lewis Howes. She is Rupi K A U R underscore. And she's got over 1.6 million followers on Instagram and she has some amazing content there. So screenshot this podcast right now. Tag me at Lewis Howes, at Rupi K A U R underscore on Instagram.
4:14 Lewis Howes? And I'm excited to connect with you more over there. Without further ado, let me introduce to you the one, the only Rupi Core.
4:24 Lewis Howes? Welcome everyone back to the School of Greatness Podcast. Very excited about where we are right now. We're in Toronto and I'm with Rupi Kaur. So, thank you so much for-
4:32 Rupi Kaur? Thank you for having me.
4:34 Lewis Howes? Welcome me into your city and I'm excited to do this. We met a couple of months ago-
4:39 Rupi Kaur? Yeah.
4:39 Lewis Howes? -in Los Angeles at the YouTube space. There was an event that Lilly Singh was putting on. We were both there on different panels.
4:46 Rupi Kaur? Yeah.
4:47 Lewis Howes? And that's when I really started to learn more about you and became fascinated with your story, your work, and how many people you've been impacting. It's been amazing what you've been up to. And all of my followers, especially the female followers, love you. So, I'm excited to share with them this interview. And you've got a new book out called The Sun and Her Flowers, which is out now. So, make sure you guys go get this book. It's really cool. And you had another book that came out a couple of years ago, correct? And what was that one called?
5:16 Rupi Kaur? So, the first book that I released was called Milk and Honey. And it, I actually self-published the first one-
5:22 Lewis Howes? Yes.
5:22 Rupi Kaur? -in 2014. And then later on in 2015, it was picked up by a publisher and brought kind of worldwide to all bookstores.
5:29 Lewis Howes? Amazing.
5:30 Rupi Kaur? Yeah.
5:30 Lewis Howes? And were you doing Instagram before that? And kind of just sharing your poetry?
5:34 Rupi Kaur? Yeah. Instagram was actually the last kind of social media platform I was practicing with. The first one was like, I just had a, for years, I had kind of like a private blog for my paintings and my artwork. Because I was like, that's the direction I want to go in. And eventually that turned into more of a poetry blog where I would actually record the poetry. And like, I kept trying these different mediums-
6:01 Lewis Howes? Like spoken word?
6:02 Rupi Kaur? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, nothing was sticking. Until I think I came up with the concept of kind of the design or visual elements of what you see on Instagram today.
6:14 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
6:14 Rupi Kaur? Yeah.
6:15 Lewis Howes? Now, there's not many mainstream poets in the world, right? There's not many people who have a massive following who are doing poetry. Are there others that you know of?
6:23 Rupi Kaur? There are a few.
6:24 Lewis Howes? There are?
6:25 Rupi Kaur? There are. Or maybe because, I know it's just like the world that I'm from. But you're right. Like, in the mainstream world of thing, like, poetry doesn't really-
6:36 Rupi Kaur? It's not there. It's not the thing that, you know, you're gonna get together with friends on a Friday night and talk about, right? Yeah, yeah.
6:42 Lewis Howes? So how do you think you made this kind of mainstream?
6:45 Rupi Kaur? I have no idea. Is it even mainstream?
6:49 Lewis Howes? I think what you've done is picked up in a massive wave for so many people where they're just obsessed with your information, your lessons. And I think what we're talking about before is you were mentioning how you still don't have anything figured out.
7:03 Rupi Kaur? No.
7:04 Lewis Howes? And it's a way for you to like kind of express what you're going through, right?
7:07 Rupi Kaur? Yeah.
7:08 Lewis Howes? At the time, is that how you do your poetry?
7:09 Rupi Kaur? Yeah, yeah. It's like, like I said before, it's all just a side effect of what's happening in life and the poetry is the response. Things happen around you. We all respond to them. And I have very emotional responses to a lot of things that are going on. And poetry is emotion for me. And so I always say that the poems actually write themselves in my mind and in my body before they're out on paper. So I kind of already know what I'm about to write. The poem's already done by the time I get to, you know, my pen, paper and to the table to write it out.
7:45 Lewis Howes? Really? You've thought of it in your mind?
7:46 Rupi Kaur? Yeah.
7:47 Lewis Howes? You started speaking it out to yourself?
7:48 Rupi Kaur? Kind of. Or it's like, you know, when a song is on the radio and it's so irritating, but it plays on and on and on in your head and you can't get it out? There's a lot of poems that kind of came to life that way. It was like a 13-line thought that just kept going and going. And it was like, "Write me, write me, write me, write me." And I was like, "No, no, no. Like, nobody cares about you. Like, you are not an interesting thought." And it's funny because like eventually I have to write it down just to get it out of my system and move on to something else. But it's those pieces, the ones that are, you know, "Write me, write me, write me." They're the ones that I think people really enjoy the most.
8:25 Lewis Howes? But you've written, what, hundreds, thousands of these shorter little poems, right? Thousands?
8:30 Rupi Kaur? I think that when I go into Maybe even thousands now, because it's kind of like, my writing process is very fluid and very natural. I free write every single day. It's kind of like journaling. And so sometimes a thought is two lines. Sometimes it's three pages. And only when it kind of, something just jumps right at me, will I then take it, transport it to like a phone, or a laptop, actually, and then edit, revise, edit, revise. But I usually, like, when I started to write The Sun and Her Flowers, and was like, yeah, like, I just signed a book deal. Now I have to do this. I had to go, I had to print out all the work that I had done.
9:13 Rupi Kaur? And in my mind, I was like, you suck. Like, you have done nothing for the past two years. How are you gonna write a book?
9:20 Lewis Howes? Except sell a million copies.
9:21 Rupi Kaur? I know. And that's what I'm battling with right now. Like, I'm unable to sit with all I've done and keep pushing myself to do more, which I don't know if, I don't think it's been like a very healthy experience. But I arrived at writing this book with hundreds and hundreds of pages already written. Stuff that I'd been just, you know, journaling for the past couple of years. Yeah.
9:47 Lewis Howes? Do you feel pressure to kind of do better than what you did before?
9:50 Rupi Kaur? Oh, my God, so much. It's just so...
9:54 Lewis Howes? Because it kind of just took off, right? You sold over, is it a million copies?
9:57 Rupi Kaur? Two million.
9:58 Lewis Howes? Two million copies you sold?
10:00 Rupi Kaur? Now it's two million and still going strong? Like, it just, I think two weeks ago, it was back on number one on New York Times Bestseller List. And it's been going for over 70 weeks. And it's like a train that won't stop. And you're like, okay, like, we need to refill the gas tank. You need to stop. But it's like, nope. And it just keeps going and going and going. It's been wild.
10:22 Lewis Howes? So what, how do you set yourself up for this then emotionally? For not being attached to the results? Because I'm assuming you wanted to do well. You wanted to sell as well, or maybe better? Or you have expectations, right? So how do you?
10:36 Rupi Kaur? Kind of like, I think I had expectations and pressure in like two different ways. In terms of, I pressure myself through the art and then even put myself and compare myself to the first book. And so one reason that I think that I waited so long and finally became ready to share this was because I didn't really want to create Milk and Honey, number two.
11:01 Rupi Kaur? That's so unfair to a book that is so, that's given me so much. And I didn't wanna, you know, kind of reproduce and repackage and just send that out into the world. And it took time to really come into like a whole different world, which is The Sun and Her Flowers. And that's what I wanted to do, right? Like, I wanted to create something different and, but still stay true to the roots. But the funny thing is, when I started to write The Sun and Her Flowers, I was like, oh, no, no, no, no. This isn't the same now. What's gonna happen? Like, everyone's gonna be like, you know, we didn't come here for this, and there was that fear as well. And then, it's so funny, because our idea of success becomes so skewed.
11:42 Rupi Kaur? So, I was so unable to write for so long. It felt like I had my hands tied behind my back, because I told myself this book would not be a success unless it also sold 2 million copies.
11:57 Lewis Howes? Right.
11:58 Rupi Kaur? Minimum, if not more. And that it also was, you know, got the same accolades and awards that Milk and Honey did.
12:06 Lewis Howes? Hit number one and all those other things.
12:08 Rupi Kaur? Yeah, and so, and I was like, that, for months, it left me like unable to be creative and unable to make anything, and I would just like curl up into a ball and cry all the time. Um, but I think that's so unfair, and we, that's so unfair. It's unfair to the art, it's unfair to the people that we share it with, and to ourselves.
12:25 Lewis Howes? Yeah, I had Liz Gilbert on, Eat, Pray, Love, you know Liz? And she had mentioned how, you know, her first, Eat, Pray, Love was this massive hit. There's a movie with, uh...
12:36 Rupi Kaur? That's Ted Talk, yeah.
12:37 Lewis Howes? Yeah, right?
12:38 Rupi Kaur? Yeah. It helped me through so much.
12:40 Lewis Howes? How she was like, my best work is behind me, probably, or how it's, you know, how am I ever gonna do this again? And being okay with it and just working on the art, so...
12:50 Lewis Howes? Why didn't you, I mean, you talked about, you know, the art and the poems come from how you're feeling in the world, right? From different, different things you're reacting to. What was the earlier things in your life when you started doing poetry that you were reacting to? What were those things in the world?
13:06 Rupi Kaur? I guess some of the earlier things, for sure, and you see this through Milk and Honey, were...
13:12 Rupi Kaur? How I was being treated as a woman in my world and how the women around me were being treated. And that sort of tension between them having to fight for their space was really what pushed me into writing poetry. So I was writing a lot about early on, it was, I think, a hundred percent of my poems were about the domestic violence that women experience, whether it was within my community or other communities, or the sexual abuse that I saw the sisters around me experience. So it was really just fighting and trying to navigate those issues, I think. I never thought that I'd be able to write love poetry or heartbreak poetry, you know,
13:56 Rupi Kaur? or even like in this new book, there's like pieces about death and so many other expansive topics. But that point when I started out, I was like, I will never be able to write anything other than this because I needed to navigate that so much, yeah.
14:09 Lewis Howes? Was there anything you were facing personally or was it more experiences from other friends and family members?
14:14 Rupi Kaur? So it was definitely some things I was also experiencing and, but it was also what other people were experiencing. And everybody always asks like, okay, like, so like, is this page about you or is it about like your cousin or your sister? But I always tell readers, like, I think it's unfair if I tell you what's what because I want you to see yourself in the work. That's the most important. That's the point of sharing, I think, yeah.
14:38 Lewis Howes? Well, what are some of the moments that are intimate and personal to you? Can you share some of those? Or you felt maybe you were attacked in a certain way or judged in a certain way where you started expressing on personal things?
14:53 Rupi Kaur? Yeah, so you mean in the poetry or in general life? Okay. So I guess in like all the themes that I cover, I've always had some sort of like very personal experience with that. And if we're talking about violence, I was with somebody who was extremely violent to me at a very young age in a relationship. And so a lot of chapter three covers those grounds. And then there's just like-
15:20 Lewis Howes? Like early teens?
15:21 Rupi Kaur? Early teens. And then-
15:23 Lewis Howes? Was this an older person who was violent or?
15:25 Rupi Kaur? Kind of. I was like, oh, I'm in love, but it's because my concept of love at that moment, like I was so hungry for affection because I'd never experienced any-
15:35 Lewis Howes? Really?
15:36 Rupi Kaur? That- Anybody who gave me anything and I feel like these people they um they know exactly who to find and who to prey on and so I was stuck in this thing for like a very long time and unable to kind of let go but it was actually when I let go of that experience I think I let go of it in like the 12th grade and that's when I turned to writing 100% and I like within that month I was doing things I would never do um like going to open mic nights and performing my poetry when in fact I was very much like fly on the wall and like to be invisible.
16:14 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
16:15 Rupi Kaur? And then there's like other parts where um you'll see in Milk and Honey I do lot write a lot about like body hair and those kind of things and like that's been a really big issue in general just being a woman but even like being a brown woman and we have like dark black hair and a lot of it sometimes and so yeah um being picked on by women and men and really trying to battle myself um because I think there was battling other people was one thing but really questioning myself like why am I doing this like wouldn't I have more fun just running around outside rather than me being up in here like waxing for hours and so really coming to terms with my own beauty standards rather than accepting
16:56 Rupi Kaur? what society's pushed on me as like what's normal because it's normal in their eyes to not have any but the universe says that it's absolutely normal it's growing back for a reason.
17:09 Lewis Howes? Right.
17:10 Rupi Kaur? Yeah so I kind of like even in the pieces that um you know I might not have experienced or it's my mom's experience or my sister's there's always a little personal touch to it um I'm always able to kind of.
17:22 Lewis Howes? Resonate in some way.
17:23 Rupi Kaur? Yeah, yeah.
17:24 Lewis Howes? It's affected you personally somehow.
17:25 Rupi Kaur? Of course, yeah.
17:26 Lewis Howes? Maybe not as dramatic as someone else's experience.
17:29 Rupi Kaur? Exactly, exactly.
17:30 Lewis Howes? How did you feel like you were able to get out of this um relationship that wasn't really supporting you?
17:35 Rupi Kaur? Oh my god, I don't know.
17:37 Lewis Howes? Was it was it physically abusive or verbally abusive or just holding you back in certain ways?
17:42 Rupi Kaur? It was all the abuses there are I'm physically.
17:47 Rupi Kaur? Emotionally, mentally, sexually, like all the abuse is wrapped up with a really bow with like thorns on it.
17:54 Lewis Howes? I was gonna say, not a pretty bow.
17:55 Rupi Kaur? And so, no, no, not a pretty one. And I still sometimes, it's so funny because the human mind is such an interesting thing. Because there are so many days I wake up now and I'm like, that happens? Because my mind has like blocked out those memories. And there are some moments where, you know, I will be writing a piece and some memories do come back and I'll go into a panic like, oh my god, that was real. And I have to calm myself down, but I think about, I really think it was a miracle that saved me. Because at the point that I got out of it, like I didn't have support from anywhere. Like my friends had turned on me, like I didn't have any like support from.
18:39 Rupi Kaur? Because, because this guy was just like brainwashing everyone, including me most of all, and just isolating me from my loved ones. Whether that was family and everything. And I was at such a, for somebody so young to experience such trauma. I was not in my own anymore and so I wasn't able to, like I was, I had a very weak like mental state at that moment. And so I always say like, it was really a miracle that saved me because I'd hit, there was like rock bottom was here and then I was here. Like I didn't even find, there was no reason to live, for me at least. And that's what I thought, but this, something happened and I remember a cousin of mine named Guggen, who I love so much.
19:23 Rupi Kaur? She was one of the few people to give it to me straight. Everyone else would be like, you know, I had a couple of very strong friends and they'd always like, you know, be there to hold me. But she came in and she was like, I am sick of this shit. She's like, I am so tired.
19:38 Lewis Howes? Of hearing you for like a year or whatever.
19:40 Rupi Kaur? For like three years. This guy is an awful human being and I am done and she just yelled at me.
19:47 Lewis Howes? She was still with him during this process.
19:49 Rupi Kaur? At this point, we had a very, it was interesting because he would ask me to do something I was very uncomfortable with. And then the cycle would begin. I would say no and he would get me to do it by like leaving me. And like cutting me out for two weeks and then of course I would end up giving in because that like. It was like an addiction. It's like a drug, right?
20:07 Lewis Howes? Yeah, of course.
20:08 Rupi Kaur? And so this was like another one of his things. He was like, alright, leaving. And I was like, oh no, like I just, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine, like convincing myself that I should just do whatever it is. And she was like, no, like I am not having it anymore. And something clicked right then, in the middle of, there was like love in that. Like in her passion, in her anger, was like so much love and something clicked in me. And was like, oh, we're never turning back. And I never did. And that's why I say it was a miracle. Because I don't know how it happened, but the universe, something aligned and was like, okay, we're done.
20:44 Lewis Howes? I think we get to a point where just enough is enough.
20:46 Rupi Kaur? Enough is enough, exactly.
20:47 Lewis Howes? Enough pain, it's like, okay, I'm just over suffering.
20:50 Rupi Kaur? Yeah, and it's like, there is nothing left to lose now. Like, the only way we can go is up. And that's it. So it was like baby steps. And up and up and up we went.
20:59 Lewis Howes? Would you say that time was kind of like the lowest moments for you, or the darkest moments for you, or?
21:04 Rupi Kaur? Um, it's funny, because I think so, but then...
21:11 Lewis Howes? Then the next guy.
21:12 Rupi Kaur? Oh, yeah, but not really. Um, I don't think anything, hopefully, will repeat itself to be as traumatic as that moment. Because it was so prolonged and there was so much mess and stuff like, I think I've shared probably 0.2% of it, not even. Maybe I will one day share more through my writing. But, um, it's funny, because once we experience something, and once we overcome it, we almost forget how difficult it was when you put time, like with that gap. And especially because my mind is like, really just blocked out so many of those memories. But I think we go through different versions of suffering. And one thing I really have seen in the last like year or two,
21:58 Rupi Kaur? and I do write about it in The Sun and Her Flowers, is that there...
22:03 Rupi Kaur? The idea of like becoming your own enemy and me becoming that in the last little while is almost more painful than any external factors trying to attack me. And I tried not to write about that because I was like, who cares about that? But I ended up writing an entire chapter about it and it's what I've really taught myself in the last two, um, last two years. Like I worked so hard on, you know, trying to really respond to these other negative factors, but then I became, it came to a point where I became my own worst enemy. And that was probably the most painful and is the most painful thing of all.
22:41 Lewis Howes? Wow. Do you think you'd be able to have as much an impact without going through that much challenge, pain, suffering? Do you think your work would be as powerful?
22:53 Rupi Kaur? Um, I, I don't know. I don't even know if I would be writing if it weren't for those moments, right?
22:58 Lewis Howes? So are you grateful for that experience?
23:01 Rupi Kaur? I, I am. Like I would say I have no regrets. Even like before that, there's been things and after that there's been things, but I've taught myself like there are no regrets and all things happen for a reason. And a wonderful thing that I do, I don't know if it's healthy or not, is like anytime something terrible happens, I always respond to it with art. So me, exactly. So going through that and ending that responded with, like I responded with that by going to my first ever like open mic night and starting to do this thing on a regular basis. Um, I don't know if I would have done that otherwise. And I remember there was other things that happened after that. And every time things went wrong, I would just do something else. Like then I started a blog and then something else went wrong. And then I was like, okay, whatever.
23:45 Rupi Kaur? Like I'm gonna start doing this. And then I started my Instagram and then, um, other things went wrong and it was like life became so bad that I was like, forget about it. I'm just gonna publish this goddamn book because that's how I kind of deal with stuff and like work through things. I have to keep myself really busy.
24:03 Lewis Howes? It's like your therapy, yeah.
24:04 Rupi Kaur? It is.
24:04 Lewis Howes? Do you feel like you have to go through challenges every single year to create then?
24:08 Rupi Kaur? Um, no.
24:10 Lewis Howes? Do you think you'll be able to create from a place of love?
24:11 Rupi Kaur? I think so. And that was a challenge. Like After the success of Milk and Honey, like I gained a lot of stability that I didn't have, that my family didn't have.
24:22 Lewis Howes? Financial stability.
24:23 Rupi Kaur? Financial stability, emotional stability. You know, it's interesting because I came to a place that was, there was lots of love and everything had settled finally after so long. And it was a moment that I'd been looking forward to forever. It's a moment that you would dream of. But then I was scared because I was like, oh my God, but like if I'm not suffering, then how will I write again, you know? And then I would like go out and search for suffering and create situations and
24:55 Lewis Howes? sabotage.
24:56 Rupi Kaur? You know, I'd be like trying to like fight with my friends just to be like, yeah, like it's gonna give me something, you know, like move me. But what I realized was like, that's so not true. And that's like working from a place of trauma and suffering. And we do not have to do that anymore. And it is very possible to write from a place of love. It's just, we have to teach ourselves how to do that. Because for so long, what I did, yeah. Like we learned to teach ourselves to write through the suffering because that's what we're trying to write through. And now I have to like reprogram myself to write through a place of like love or happiness or whatever that is. Because it's so possible.
25:34 Lewis Howes? Why didn't you feel like you had the acceptance or the acknowledgement of love or the friendship or the support growing up?
25:41 Rupi Kaur? I definitely had the friendship. I think I've always been so fortunate to have a group, what, sometimes it was one person, sometimes it was three, but a small group of really, really, really strong women around me who are always there to hold me and support me. And there's, you see that love in my writing. But I come from, you know, a South Asian family. And sometimes we find it very difficult to say I love you or talk about our feelings. Like those things don't happen. It's kind of like
26:15 Lewis Howes? Really?
26:16 Rupi Kaur? Very like rigid. And so, growing up in
26:20 Rupi Kaur? The, in America, like, I don't know how my experience, like, my cousin's experiences growing up in India are probably different because that's the system they're used to, but growing up here, it was like, okay, this is how it is at home. But then when I go to school, I see all the other parents having their kids and being like, oh, I love you, and patting them on their head, and I'm like, oh, does that mean my parents don't love me? And so that was really, really challenging, because my parents love me beyond words. And that's, you know, but they can't say that. But instead, they show it in different ways.
26:53 Lewis Howes? They couldn't say I loved you.
26:54 Rupi Kaur? No, they can't say it.
26:55 Lewis Howes? They can't, still?
26:56 Rupi Kaur? No, it's like not, they don't say it. But then you have to really look for it in their actions, and it's always there. Whether it's like my dad calling me every single day and being like, are you okay? Is anyone bothering you? And you know, that's what he thinks of, like, while he's like on the road. He's a truck driver, and so he's like on the road, and he's always like calling me, and he's coming up with ideas for like all this stuff, and making sure that I'm okay. And, or even like him, he's never been like, oh, I am so proud of you for writing this book, or whatever it is, right? But I think the man carries around a hundred copies of the book in a backpack,
27:37 Rupi Kaur? because now every time I go to a grocery store, or like a bank, or something like that in Brampton, they, Brampton's my hometown, they'll all be like, oh my god, hey, like, how's it going? Like, your dad was in here, he told us all this, like, congratulations. And so I'm like, oh my god, dad, you're embarrassing me.
27:53 Lewis Howes? That's great, that's what we're supposed to do, though.
27:54 Rupi Kaur? Yeah, exactly.
28:01 Lewis Howes? What do you think is the difference between surviving and living fully?
28:07 Rupi Kaur? I don't know if there's a difference between them, aren't they kind of like the same thing? I used to think that, um, when...
28:16 Rupi Kaur? Well, this was when I was a lot younger. That you would get to a certain place where you survived everything and then you could just be happy. And I realized that that's not the way it is anymore. Living means to survive, whether it's small battles or big battles, there's always battles.
28:30 Lewis Howes? Yeah, yeah. What do you think is the biggest challenge that you face right now? With everything that's happening in the world?
28:36 Rupi Kaur? Hmm.
28:36 Lewis Howes? What's the thing that's affecting you the most?
28:39 Rupi Kaur? Me. I am...
28:42 Lewis Howes? Whether it's happening to you or just in the world?
28:44 Rupi Kaur? It's happening in me.
28:45 Lewis Howes? Yes, I mean, maybe not something's attacking you, but like in the world, you're seeing things happen.
28:50 Rupi Kaur? Yeah.
28:50 Lewis Howes? What's having the biggest effect on you?
28:52 Rupi Kaur? I think I've had to really unplug from what's sometimes going on in the world. Because what I do and what a lot of other people do is like, oh my goodness, this is happening. And it's a buildup and we're like, we need to know, is there justice? Is there gonna be justice? So for so long, I would have my phone over here and I would just be like freaking out. Because you want to make change happen and you're like, what can I do? How can I help? What can I do? What can I help? And for me, it just became really, really bad for my mind. Because I was like, okay, I'm not doing enough. I should be out there, I should be protesting, I should be doing this. I should be, you know, giving more money to that and more money over here. And then I had to just be like, okay, we need to breathe and we need to meditate and we need to relax and unplug.
29:37 Rupi Kaur? And so I've done that. And that's my way of like unplugging, making sure that I'm mentally at a point where I can actually offer some sort of sustainable assistance and allyship and help.
29:51 Lewis Howes? Do you think it's possible to end our suffering?
29:54 Rupi Kaur? No. No, I think that suffering and pain, suffering and joy are the exact same thing. They're like married to one another, like life and death. And that's why whenever I suffer, whenever suffering comes, I like welcome it. It actually makes me excited because I'm like, okay, happened to me. Because you know what? At the end of you, it's like the moon and the sun. You know, one goes down, the other rises. So suffering will come up, but eventually it's gonna go for, go for a little nap and then the joy comes. It's gonna go for a little nap and I think it's like very, very cyclical. Yeah, so I think there cannot be one without the other.
30:32 Lewis Howes? You think we need suffering?
30:33 Rupi Kaur? Of course. I think that if there wasn't suffering, would we really, really appreciate the joy? I don't think so.
30:40 Lewis Howes? Well, I think we could also experience adversity and challenges and not have to suffer through them.
30:46 Rupi Kaur? I think.
30:47 Lewis Howes? Where we're like paralyzed and just like.
30:48 Rupi Kaur? No.
30:49 Lewis Howes? How do I get out of this dark place?
30:51 Rupi Kaur? I think my version of suffering is definitely not like, oh my god, we're in this dark place. But yeah, like challenges and adversity.
30:58 Lewis Howes? Adversity and challenges, yes.
31:00 Rupi Kaur? Yes, exactly. That's exactly what I mean.
31:01 Lewis Howes? What do you think we can do to set ourselves up to win on a daily basis? To be more grounded, grateful, even in chaos that's happening in our lives?
31:12 Rupi Kaur? I think the first thing that comes to mind is like taking responsibility. First, you take responsibility and then you forgive yourself. Because it's hard to take responsibility because then you can fall into the pattern of being like, oh, I took responsibility of this thing. Oh, my god, it's all my fault. What am I gonna do? What am I gonna do? But you have to take responsibility and be like, okay, it's okay. Yeah, yeah, it's fine. This happens to everybody. And it's taking responsibility of the little things. I think like those are what boggle us down the most. It's like when we get upset at other people or other things for not doing the things we should have done for ourselves. And so if we can take responsibility for that and then forgive ourselves, then I think we can move in a more positive way.
31:54 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
31:54 Rupi Kaur? Yeah.
31:54 Lewis Howes? Is there anything you haven't forgiven yourself for?
32:00 Rupi Kaur? I am currently working on forgiving myself for being too hard on myself. Yeah, I think that's the only thing I'm working on that I have not forgiven myself for.
32:11 Lewis Howes? Why haven't you?
32:12 Rupi Kaur? Um, because I didn't really know. I thought that being so difficult on yourself was like a good, good thing, which it is. You know, but to a certain limit, and I think I crossed that limit. To a point where everything that I did, I saw it as like not good enough or just in a really negative light. Like, I finished writing The Sun and Her Flowers, and then everyone was like, okay, like, you should just relax and take a break. And so then I was like, okay, let me go do that. And so for a week, I, not even for a week, I think it was the second day in where I was just trying to do the whole Netflix and hanging out thing.
32:44 Lewis Howes? Yeah, yeah.
32:44 Rupi Kaur? Okay, and I had a breakdown and I was like, oh, my god, I've accomplished nothing this entire year. What did I do? I just sat around all the time. I just ate and I just watched movies and everyone around me was like. But like, didn't you just finish writing an entire book? And that's when I was like, oh, okay, like now we're getting carried away. So now I'm backtracking and really trying to figure out why I do or say these things to myself and how I can really fix that.
33:12 Lewis Howes? Sure. Is there anything else in the world you haven't forgiven?
33:17 Rupi Kaur? I don't know. I feel like that responding to that will require deeper thought.
33:22 Lewis Howes? It will require art.
33:24 Rupi Kaur? Yeah, yeah.
33:26 Lewis Howes? How can we start to love ourselves if we are stuck in this cycle of self-hatred?
33:35 Rupi Kaur? I think that the self-hatred is always like it goes back to thought. And what I've been learning from the people around me is that you have to go back to the thought and fix the thought first and
33:48 Lewis Howes? Does that mean like change the story about the thought?
33:50 Rupi Kaur? Um, or first of all, be aware of the thought, like be aware of the fact that these are the thoughts you're having that they're negative or whatever they are. And once you become more self-aware of them, then how can we change them? And then thoughts, like it's all kind of a pattern, you know? Thoughts, if you can change your thoughts, it'll affect your actions and then how you feel about yourself and then how you treat other people and it's all like a chain of events. But I think it all goes back to thought. Yeah.
34:15 Lewis Howes? I'd love for you to read a poem, can you?
34:17 Rupi Kaur? Yes.
34:19 Lewis Howes? You had one picked out, right?
34:20 Rupi Kaur? Yep. It's one of my favorites.
34:23 Lewis Howes? What's the context behind this one?
34:27 Rupi Kaur? Um, the context is
34:29 Lewis Howes? When did you write it? What were you feeling?
34:31 Rupi Kaur? Yeah. So this is what happened. Um, two stories. When I, Milk and Honey was published through AMP in 2015. It was November and after that I wasn't able to write for a year. Like I just, I think Life changed so quickly and I did not know and I was not equipped with the tools to deal with that. And so I wasn't able to practice my art. And that was really challenging because then I went into a really dark place because I was like, oh my god, it just started and it's already over. Like, I'll never be able to create again and it was so scary. And whereas, you know, everybody else around me, the publishers, the agents, the all the folks, the wonderful team that I have, they were like
35:14 Rupi Kaur? nudging me and they're like, oh, so like about that second book though? You want to work on this like deal or not? And all these people online were like, you know, you don't post work online anymore. You know, you're gonna be forgotten, someone else is gonna replace you. And I was like, oh my god, sick, I couldn't move out of bed for days. And so that's what inspired this piece. And a conversation that one of my really good friends had with a woman who was 50. And she was like, "Life is the greatest thing now than it's ever been before." And that really opened my lens up. Because before that, I was living in a place of what those people were saying that
35:57 Rupi Kaur? "You better grasp your moment right now or it's all gonna be gone." Whereas this woman was like, "Life just started and it's a freaking ball and it's fantastic." And so I wrote this piece and it's called "Timeless." "They convinced me I only had a few good years left before I was replaced by a girl younger than me. As though men yield power with age, but women grow into irrelevance. They can keep their lies, for I have just gotten started. I feel as though I just left the womb. My twenties are the warm-up for what I'm really about to do. Wait till you see me in my thirties.
36:40 Rupi Kaur? Now that will be a proper introduction to the nasty, wild woman in me. How can I leave before the party started? Rehearsals begin at forty. I ripen with age, I do not come with an expiry date. And now for the main event, curtains up at fifty. Let's begin the show."
37:03 Lewis Howes? Market, that's cool.
37:04 Rupi Kaur? Thank you. Yeah, we snap, we snap.
37:11 Lewis Howes? I want to ask you a few more questions before we finish up. But I'm curious, is there any question you wish people would ask you more that they don't ask?
37:19 Rupi Kaur? No.
37:20 Lewis Howes? No, okay.
37:21 Rupi Kaur? Yeah, I feel like I get a lot of questions and I try to answer all of them.
37:24 Lewis Howes? Good.
37:24 Rupi Kaur? But do you think there's any questions that people don't really ask me?
37:29 Lewis Howes? I'm just curious, you know, I never know what people, is there anything you wish you could talk more about that you don't feel like you get to talk about? Or that people miss? Maybe they're not asking, maybe there's something that you're really thinking about in your mind a lot that people just aren't aware of?
37:42 Rupi Kaur? Mm-hmm.
37:43 Lewis Howes? That you, that you wish they would ask you about?
37:45 Rupi Kaur? Yeah.
37:45 Lewis Howes? Or you wish you would talk about more?
37:47 Rupi Kaur? Um, I think I really enjoy talking about kind of the process of writing and the process of designing and like, just, and maybe I haven't found the space to like, talk about all of that, but for me, poetry is the word, but it's also like so much more than that. And it's about how a book feels and the paper, the texture and the color. And I always want to create an entire universe, yeah.
38:10 Lewis Howes? I mean, you have this unique, I feel like everyone's tried to copy this now.
38:14 Rupi Kaur? No.
38:15 Lewis Howes? You know what I mean, right?
38:16 Rupi Kaur? I was definitely not the first person to create it, but yeah.
38:18 Lewis Howes? But it's like so clean and then you do all your own drawings, right?
38:21 Rupi Kaur? I do illustrate it, yeah, yeah.
38:24 Lewis Howes? And is it bad if I call it drawing, is that like?
38:26 Rupi Kaur? No.
38:26 Lewis Howes? Okay. I'm like an ignorant artist.
38:29 Rupi Kaur? That's also one thing, everyone is like super scared to just be open around me because they're like, oh, no, no, no. We gotta like be like, you know, we can't offend her, like, but I'm like, dude, it's chill, say whatever you want.
38:42 Lewis Howes? And were you always into art at a very young age as well?
38:45 Rupi Kaur? Yeah, I've been drawing, um, I used to actually do like a very hyper realistic sketches and like acrylic paintings since I was like, from the age of five and I always thought that that would be my like line of work. But then I found poetry and the reason I brought the illustrations in was because I felt like I cheated on my like first love. And I like found this like new sexy form who like captivated all of my attention. And I was like, this is a little bit unfair now because I left the art behind and so, and then I brought the idea of the illustrations and married the two.
39:15 Lewis Howes? I think it's powerful, I mean, especially to kind of go on a different topic, there's so many people who are artists or musicians who feel like they can't make money or can't build a business or can't do something. And you're doing short little poems with little illustrations. And you're making a lot of money and building a massive brand and audience around something that people think you can't do.
39:37 Rupi Kaur? Hmm.
39:38 Lewis Howes? Which I think is just a powerful example.
39:40 Rupi Kaur? Hmm. I think that if, I think like if we shed what it is, whether it's the poetry, the illustrations or everything, I think anything if done with real honesty is gonna work. And like with the poetry, it's like the poetry is just one medium of me expressing myself. But I think that the reason it's worked is not because of the illustrations, not because it's short or not because it's packaged in a certain way. I think it's because it's me being so honest with myself. And that's what I hear from readers all the time, like this is exactly what I was feeling or thinking, but I just like didn't know how to say it. And so that type of honesty really can get you far.
40:22 Rupi Kaur? And you see that in musicians and painters and dancers and like all the arts, yeah.
40:26 Lewis Howes? Do you have a routine in the morning or where you are writing every single day at a certain time or to help you cultivate this? Or is it just comes at random or you just get it out of you?
40:36 Rupi Kaur? In my, in my dream world, I wake up every day and I have a light breakfast and then I have my tea and then nobody calls me, nobody bothers me. I don't have email going like beep beep beep beep. And I sit and I have like two to three hours to just calmly write.
40:52 Lewis Howes? That's never happened, probably.
40:54 Rupi Kaur? It only, it, it hasn't happened in the last little while. Um, it gets difficult because then it's like you're trying to juggle. For me, I think the challenge is I'm trying to juggle being, maintaining the art and the creativity, which is the root of everything and that is the most important thing to me. But also now managing this business that just happened to appear and I have to take advantage of that and really cultivate that as well. And so learning how to balance that with like developing a team and creating a good set of people.
41:25 Lewis Howes? Manage people, hire people and everything.
41:27 Rupi Kaur? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
41:27 Lewis Howes? So were you working before or were you in college when it come this all?
41:30 Rupi Kaur? I was, I published it and I was still in college and so.
41:34 Lewis Howes? You didn't have like a job before?
41:36 Rupi Kaur? No, I mean, I've worked since I was 14.
41:38 Lewis Howes? Of course, of course.
41:39 Rupi Kaur? And my program was really, really interesting because it was like a cooperative program. And so I was getting my degree, but I also had to complete my degree. I had to do five different work placements at different, in different areas. And like so many of those. Gave me the tools for actually self-publishing the first book. Like, the design jobs helped me like learn how to use Illustrator and InDesign. And, you know, the web development jobs helped me like really master like the illustrations and that sort of thing. But, yeah, I was still, I think when it came out, I was in my last semester. And like, this was a moment like, I thought nobody knew about it. So like, I secretly published it in the corner. And then I went to class the next day and was just like walking around and like,
42:21 Rupi Kaur? eventually people just started to be like, yo, like, you did that? And then I was like, this is super embarrassing, because like, I feel like I'm so honest in my work. And when we are, you know, at school or whatever areas, we really hide a lot of ourselves. Yeah, yeah.
42:36 Lewis Howes? I wanna, I wanna put you on the spot for a moment.
42:38 Rupi Kaur? Okay.
42:39 Lewis Howes? And see what you can create. I wanna ask you to, either maybe you already have a poem memorized.
42:46 Rupi Kaur? Oh, no. Yeah, okay.
42:48 Lewis Howes? Or just a message that you can turn into a poem.
42:51 Rupi Kaur? Okay. I can't freestyle.
42:55 Lewis Howes? You can't freestyle? It's all written stuff? It could be something that just, you know, I already have then.
42:59 Rupi Kaur? Okay.
43:00 Lewis Howes? Or, or a message. I mean, it can just be a message, doesn't have to be a poem.
43:03 Rupi Kaur? For, okay, help me out here.
43:04 Lewis Howes? For women.
43:05 Rupi Kaur? Okay.
43:05 Lewis Howes? Who, maybe you have gone through a similar experience as you.
43:09 Rupi Kaur? Hmm.
43:10 Lewis Howes? Or have gone through a challenging relationship where they felt stuck and trapped.
43:14 Rupi Kaur? Yeah, yeah.
43:15 Lewis Howes? For women who feel like they've been put down in certain ways in society, bullied, shamed, whatever it may be. Similar experiences that you felt?
43:25 Rupi Kaur? Yeah.
43:25 Lewis Howes? What would you share with women? Whether it's just your own thoughts?
43:29 Rupi Kaur? Yeah.
43:29 Lewis Howes? A poem you wanna make up on the spot?
43:31 Rupi Kaur? Okay, so one thing I always share, because I'm really bad at making up poems on the spot, is that whether you have nothing or whether you have everything, there's hardships, I think, in everybody's lives. And everybody's going through them. But what always I've seen to be true and what helps me is like, we always go outside to find power and to really figure out the answers. But the power that you need and the answers that you need, guess what? Like, they're already in you. And you have to reach out and like, that is it. So you've come like prepackaged with the answer and the power to do anything you want. And you just gotta grab it and run.
44:09 Lewis Howes? Hmm, I love that one.
44:11 Rupi Kaur? Hmm.
44:12 Lewis Howes? And what about for humanity in general?
44:13 Rupi Kaur? Oh, no, there's so much happening.
44:15 Lewis Howes? What's a message you would say? Let's say this.
44:19 Rupi Kaur? Yeah.
44:19 Lewis Howes? Let's say everyone.
44:21 Rupi Kaur? Yeah.
44:21 Lewis Howes? In the world.
44:22 Rupi Kaur? Yeah.
44:23 Lewis Howes? Was able to listen to this right now.
44:24 Rupi Kaur? It's.
44:25 Lewis Howes? And you could share a message with the world.
44:27 Rupi Kaur? I think that, um.
44:28 Lewis Howes? Humanity.
44:28 Rupi Kaur? One thing, I've been trying to figure out how things could be better. How could things be different? And I think two things. I think we can listen a lot more and talk a little bit less. Um, I think we should listen to each other and we should be kinder to each other. And I think those two things paired together will hopefully one day help us understand and accept one another. Cause we are so different and I know it's so cliche, but these things are cliche because they're true. Um, we're also very similar and so we need to listen more, shut up a little bit more and be a lot nicer than we are.
45:04 Lewis Howes? Of course, of course.
45:05 Rupi Kaur? Yeah.
45:06 Lewis Howes? Uh, this is a question I, I ask at the end called the three truths. And, um, imagine this is your last day many years from now.
45:15 Rupi Kaur? Okay.
45:15 Lewis Howes? You've lived the life you want.
45:17 Rupi Kaur? Hmm.
45:18 Lewis Howes? You've written every poem, done all the artwork.
45:21 Rupi Kaur? Hmm.
45:22 Lewis Howes? Any dream you've had, you've made it come true.
45:24 Rupi Kaur? Okay.
45:25 Lewis Howes? Had the perfect life.
45:26 Rupi Kaur? Yeah.
45:26 Lewis Howes? That you want.
45:27 Rupi Kaur? Okay.
45:28 Lewis Howes? Uh, and for whatever reason, all the content you've ever created is erased.
45:33 Rupi Kaur? Hmm.
45:33 Lewis Howes? Art, poems, videos, gone.
45:36 Rupi Kaur? Oh, okay.
45:38 Lewis Howes? And you have a piece of paper and a pen.
45:40 Rupi Kaur? Yeah.
45:40 Lewis Howes? To write down your three truths.
45:43 Rupi Kaur? Okay.
45:43 Lewis Howes? The three things you know to be true or the lessons that you would leave behind to the rest of us.
45:47 Rupi Kaur? Hmm.
45:48 Lewis Howes? What would you say, again, I'm putting you on the spot.
45:50 Rupi Kaur? Yeah.
45:50 Lewis Howes? What would you say are your three truths?
45:51 Rupi Kaur? I think about this often, actually.
45:53 Lewis Howes? Do you?
45:53 Rupi Kaur? Yeah, I do. Um, I would say, I don't know if these are gonna be three things, but it's things that people have already said. So it's not original at all. But for me, it's, cause I, for me, it's, um.
46:09 Rupi Kaur? Happiness is like the most important thing and it does not come from any amount of success or any amount of money or any amount of fame. And so work on that. And at the end of your life, like when I I imagine myself at the end of my life and I know this to be true, that these books and the things that I create or the things that I buy or whatever are not going to be the things that fill me. And I really hope at that point that I've really cultivated a relationship with myself and my loved ones and found happiness in that. And like that's what's going to complete me. Yeah.
46:44 Lewis Howes? Awesome. That's great. Before I ask the final question, I want to acknowledge you for a moment, Ruby, for opening up, for sharing your voice with the world, for using your pain and making it into your purpose to inspire other people and to support so many men and women who are going through hard times, to give them that inspiration, that moment, that catalyst that can wake them up and move them forward in a more powerful, loving way. So, we acknowledge you for sharing your gifts.
47:16 Rupi Kaur? Thank you.
47:17 Lewis Howes? Make sure you guys get the book. The Son and Her Flowers, really powerful, very inspiring. Check her out on Instagram if you want to learn more, you can get more of a teaser there about her book.
47:30 Lewis Howes? What else, where else can we connect with you? What else can we do? Where do you like to hang out online besides Instagram or website?
47:36 Rupi Kaur? I've been doing a lot of non-hanging out online, actually.
47:39 Lewis Howes? That's good.
47:39 Rupi Kaur? Yeah, I used to hang out, yeah, I used to be on the internet all the time. And it used to make me really upset when I got really busy because I had such a a strong connection, like a one-on-one connection with like my Tumblr readers and you know, I was always like writing letters to them and this and that. But it's become so hard to do that in the online atmosphere. So now what I'm trying to do is figure out how to have that in real life. And that means trying to be in a healthy place where I can do as many shows as possible and like meet people. I think I just want to meet everybody and like hold their hands and be like, hey, like how's it going? Let's just crack some jokes and have a good time.
48:21 Rupi Kaur? And I'm trying to figure out how to do that, like, yeah. That would be really cool. I'm doing one, but even beyond that, I'm like, okay, how can we do better and bigger? And like, you know, I'm in Toronto and our Toronto ticket sales went on sale. The show went on sale today and I think we're basically out of tickets. And now I'm like telling my team, I'm gonna go back and tell them, we need to book the biggest space ever and it needs to be free because I want all of Toronto there. Because I really wanna just be able to give back and meet these wonderful people.
48:53 Lewis Howes? Amazing. Make sure you guys get the book. The final question is, what's your definition of greatness?
49:01 Rupi Kaur? I think my definition of greatness is figuring out what you want and then working towards that, whatever that is, and being kind in how you do that. Like if you can do that, you can strive for whatever you want to do and be kind to the world around you, like you are great. Yeah.
49:20 Lewis Howes? Thank you so much.
49:21 Rupi Kaur? Thank you.
49:25 Lewis Howes? Oh, I love this one. Make sure you guys share it with your friends. Take a screenshot of the podcast app right now that you're listening to, the School of Greatness podcast with Rupee Kaur and share it out. Post it on Instagram, Instagram story, Twitter, Facebook. Connect with me and let me know the thing you enjoyed the most about this. There's quotes back on LewisHowes.com/545 from some of the quotes of today's interview where you can tweet those out. Take a screenshot, post them on Instagram for your own creative content to inspire others and tag me at Lewis Howes and at Rupee K A U R underscore on Instagram to connect with both of us. I appreciate you guys very much.
50:09 Lewis Howes? And this episode, to check out the full show notes, all the stuff we talked about in here, the full video with me and Rupee, go to LewisHowes.com/545. You'll see some great quotes there as well. Pick up her book, it's a game changer and I hope you guys enjoy it. Again, a great quote from Rupee, "If you were born with the weakness to fall, you were born with the strength to rise." I love you guys and you were born with greatness inside of you. You know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.
Previous 544 Performing Under Pressure with High Stakes Poker Champion Fedor Holz Next 546 Envision Without Evidence Page updated October 9, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated
