Better Offline CES 2025: Day 6 - Epilogue

Welcome to Better Offline’s coverage of the 2025 Consumer Electronics Show - a standup radio station in the Venetian with an attached open bar where reporters, experts and various other characters bring you the stories from the floor. Phil Broughton and Ed Ongweso Jr. join Ed Zitron for an epilogue on the Consumer Electronics Show and the 12+ hours of audio we've recorded - and what we're planning to do next. Ed Ongweso Jr.: https://bsky.app/profile/bigblackjacobin.bsky.social The Tech Bubble Newsletter: https://thetechbubble.substack.com/ https://thetechbubble.substack.com/ Phillip Broughton: https://bsky.app/profile/funranium.bsky.social https://www.funraniumlabs.com/ --- LINKS: https://www.tinyurl.com/betterofflinelinks Newsletter: https://www.wheresyoured.at/ Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/BetterOffline/ Discord: chat.wheresyoured.at https://discord.com/invite/QUUQUP9szv Ed's Socials: https://twitter.com/edzitron https://www.instagram.com/edzitron https://bsky.app/profile/edzitron.com https://www.threads.net/@edzitron See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Speaker 01

  Empower is all about helping you invest well so you can go out and live a little. And their Free Empower Personal Dashboard shows you your full financial life in one place. You'll be able to see your net worth, monitor budgets, analyze your portfolio, set retirement goals, and more. Whether you're saving for something big, want to treat yourself, friends, or family, or meet long-term goals, Empower helps you see where you stand. You've worked hard for your money, and Empower can help you make the most of it. Download the Empower Personal Dashboard or visit empower.com. Not an Empower client paid or sponsored.

• 0:36Speaker 02

  Running a small business takes everything you've got. But with Chase for Business, you're not alone. They bring together local support and a broad range of resources to more than seven million customers. With a deep understanding of your day-to-day needs, they provide products and guidance built to help you thrive. Right now, earn $500 when you open a new Chase Business Complete Checking account for new business checking customers with qualifying activities. Offer expires January 21, 2027. Chase Business Complete Checking has the flexible tools you need to accept payments, make deposits, and manage your finances with confidence. Learn more at chase.com/podcastbizoffer. Chase, make

• 1:18Speaker 02

  more of what's yours. Fees may apply to Chase Business Complete Checking accounts. The $500 offer is available for new business checking accounts with qualifying activities through January 21, 2027. Eligibility and qualification requirements must be met. Additional restrictions may apply. Please speak with a business banker for more information. J.P. Morgan Chase Bank, N.A., Member FDIC.

• 1:45Speaker 03

  Call Zone Media.

• 1:48Ed Zitron?

  Welcome to the final episode of Better Offline's coverage of the Consumer Electronics Show. I love you all! We love you too!

• 2:09Ed Zitron?

  Alright, so we've made it everyone. We're on the final day is Saturday, January 11th. We have all, we conferenced ourselves out a bit. We had a wonderful, positive masculinity day. Went out and got brunch. We went and got massages. Tonight, we're gonna go get dinner. But we're here for kind of a, kind of an epilogue episode. Cause yesterday, I thought was gonna be less of a close, but it turned out to be a real finale. So really, this is just about what we've learned at the CES. So Phil, what have you learned at the CES? What is it?

• 2:43Speaker 05

  Oddly, it's an ergonomics thing.

• 2:46Ed Zitron?

  Okay.

• 2:47Speaker 05

  So, we just got massages and man, I feel so much better than I did.

• 2:52Ed Zitron?

  Right.

• 2:53Speaker 05

  Five days standing on my feet, on marble. In my multi-decade career of gambling in this fine city and its many beautiful slot machines, we previously discussed.

• 3:04Speaker 05

  I've gotten to sample a lot of rooms, a lot of decor. And one of the things that I've picked up is the more high-end your room is, the less carpet you get. So you get a lot of marble to stand on, which is awful on your feet. And I came back and I, earlier today, I went looking at the pit bosses and the dealers and realized they're standing on marble too. I cannot imagine trying to work an entire day standing on that out there.

• 3:34Ed Zitron?

  So what was the, what was the lesson you learned though? Ouchie?

• 3:38Speaker 05

  The richer you are, the more you're gonna hurt for style.

• 3:43Ed Zitron?

  Hmm. Yeah. The problem is, people keep thinking about rich and hurt a little too much at the moment. And I don't really wanna fuel that conversation. So, the thing is, more comfortable shoes, I guess you need?

• 3:57Speaker 05

  Possibly.

• 3:58Ed Zitron?

  Yeah. We need to get you like a little kitchen pad. Actually, that might, I'm saying that facetiously when that actually might be the solution to the problem. Cause Phil has been tending bar. If you're for some reason choosing the epilogue episode to start with, you're my kinda freak. By the way, I am joined by, of course, health physicist and bartender, Phil Broaden, who has been, I think you've served, what, at least 100 drinks this week?

• 4:24Speaker 05

  Oh, well, based on the stacks of my cups, um, well, more, we're probably in the 200 range.

• 4:31Ed Zitron?

  Yeah. And you've, you've seen most of the tech media. It's been lovely. Phil has been working his ass off and we're all very grateful. Most, most of the tech media is grateful. I say that as if some of them wouldn't be and well, maybe.

• 4:44Speaker 05

  They get 86 from my bar if they were.

• 4:46Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, that's true. I don't think that's the case. We've had like an unrelenting horde of very pleasant, lovely people. And talking of that, Mr. Edward on Guesso Junior joins us for our last day here.

• 4:56Speaker 06

  Hello, hello.

• 4:57Ed Zitron?

  How are you feeling, Ed?

• 4:58Speaker 06

  I'm fighting the itis.

• 4:59Ed Zitron?

  You got the itis?

• 5:00Speaker 06

  I mean, I have, um, an unconscionable amount of food in my belly.

• 5:07Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, we fed, we fed, just to be clear, I fed the boys up.

• 5:10Speaker 06

  Been gorged.

• 5:11Ed Zitron?

  And we're only doing more of it tonight.

• 5:14Speaker 06

  This morning.

• 5:15Speaker 05

  And more to come.

• 5:16Speaker 06

  Yeah, I'm more to.

• 5:18Speaker 05

  You can do it.

• 5:18Speaker 06

  I, yeah, dude, yeah, I woke up with, uh, heartburn and a slightly collapsed lung. Had to inflate again, but other than that, you know, I'm doing great.

• 5:28Ed Zitron?

  Average better offline listener.

• 5:30Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 5:31Ed Zitron?

  Just a one step closer to the end. I just want to be clear, by the way, I feel great. My masseuse told me that my body is actually doing pretty well and that I need to keep doing yoga. So the answer here is that the more you speak on the mic, the better you feel.

• 5:45Speaker 05

  The more powerful you become.

• 5:46Ed Zitron?

  The more power you accumulate.

• 5:48Speaker 06

  That's right.

• 5:49Ed Zitron?

  Over the course of this, but I think it's been a very, it's been my favorite CES ever. And Phil, at this point, has been to eight with me. This is the eighth.

• 5:59Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 5:59Ed Zitron?

  And I think what was really fun about it, other than the fact that I got to just do a weird radio show for like 13 hours, is that it's given me a lot of hope about the tech media. Not that I was like blackpilled or anything, not that I was like, oh, this is all bad, but you talk to people, people at Engadget, we have three people from Engadget, or like Max Cherny from Reuters. And all of these people who are like so passionate and actually rave, they gave a shit and they gave a shit and they were strategic about how they gave a shit and the way they talked about it. And I think you as the listeners can kind of agree with me. It's, it's really heartening to hear others talk about this because I feel like the bylines that some people are under, they kind of rob them of that passion.

• 6:36Speaker 05

  Yeah. They, actually some of the best talks, talks.

• 6:42Speaker 05

  Interviews for our reporters that came to visit to talk about the things where you, I'm not going to say you crowbarred out of them for, tell me the best thing you saw, the thing that made you happiest when you were on the floor. The thing they saw that invariably made all of them happiest seemed to be when they found a presenter on the floor with a booth who also gave a shit.

• 7:06Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 7:07Speaker 05

  So it's not, people do love tech.

• 7:11Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 7:12Speaker 05

  If you have come here and you hate what you're offering, we're gonna notice.

• 7:17Ed Zitron?

  And we're gonna talk about it.

• 7:18Speaker 05

  And we will talk about it, but we love tech.

• 7:20Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 7:21Speaker 05

  They, if you're selling it, you need to love tech.

• 7:24Ed Zitron?

  Yeah. And I think it's easy to give into the kind of cynicism at the moment because the people running the tech industry, I know Ed, you feel this strongly, it's like, the people running it don't give a shit about tech. Mark Zuckerberg doesn't give a shit about Facebook. He's talking about how, oh yeah, we need more masculine energy.

• 7:41Speaker 05

  Just this. Mescaline?

• 7:43Ed Zitron?

  Masculine.

• 7:44Speaker 06

  I'm sure he was pushing masculine down their throats as well.

• 7:48Ed Zitron?

  And it's just sad because it's this kind of repressed, toxic masculinity where it's about dominance, even though his platform only dominates by being a monopoly of sorts. It's just very sad. And I realize we've been very male weighted this week, but it's like, it's been a positive masculine experience. We've had good friendships here, but also just, people of all genders who have been here have had a great time because it's been about hanging out and actually talking about the stuff that intrigued or made you happy or made you very angry, of course. And I think that it's cool that we got to encapsulate that. It feels like collecting years of CES into one.

• 8:21Speaker 05

  Yeah. So traditionally, everyone who's come to get a drink, I've always asked them, tell me the thing that scared you. Tell me the thing that you thought was dangerous to see if I needed to call the fire marshal or more likely, in the case of this show, drop a line to the FDA. But the thing that I had never asked, and I'm glad you were asking everyone on the podcast, is what made you excited, what made you happy? Because that's something I never did, and I've realized that may have been not great energy I was bringing to the bar in past years.

• 9:00Ed Zitron?

  I think within the, and as the real Ed heads know, the real Zitron law people, they'll know, but the previous form of this was a PR firm thing. Me, my guy Kevin, what we come out here, we'd have journalists over, wouldn't do any pitching, but we'd have them in and have a good laugh. With this, it felt like we were actually building something cool. And so, Ed, you had fun, right?

• 9:21Speaker 06

  Mm-hmm.

• 9:22Ed Zitron?

  Yeah. Did you actually like finding, and it's okay if the answer's no, did you actually find anything that like gave you any hope?

• 9:30Speaker 06

  No.

• 9:31Ed Zitron?

  And that's fine. No, but talk to me about that, because there's nothing wrong with that answer. It's just, what was it?

• 9:36Speaker 06

  I mean, I think, you know, I am not the market demographic for a lot of these things. I have little to no interest in filling my home with gizmos, gadgets, or toys. I'm not really, also as a result of that, in need of souping up the grid in my home, the appliances, adding smart layers to them. I'm not too interested in healthcare management. I mean, most of the things that I like and I'm interested in are things that like I

• 10:13Speaker 06

  can make myself hands-on, don't really require the intervention of smart or algorithmic-enabled

• 10:22Ed Zitron?

  Wi-Fi, various apps and such.

• 10:24Speaker 06

  You know? And so, on that front, I'm not too interested. And then there's the other, you know, there's the part of me that though is very interested in tech, just to like see what is being developed and offered to other people, especially people who are in need of things, people who are disabled, people who are makers, people who are inventors, right, and are just interested in creating something and offering it to other people. Cool. But you know, I think CES is also not the place for me to find hope in that because of how much of the tech either simply does not exist or is in a prototype form that as I talk to more people is synonymous with like perpetual delay.

• 11:08Ed Zitron?

  Mm hmm.

• 11:09Speaker 06

  And at times, not even like a, not even a release or release and a pair back form. So I feel like it's more so, I come here, I didn't come here looking for magic. I am surprised by how much offered just did not connect with me.

• 11:25Ed Zitron?

  Right. Um. Cause you weren't coming in here just as a pure hater. When we talked about this originally, you were like, I don't know.

• 11:31Speaker 06

  Yeah, I literally didn't know.

• 11:32Ed Zitron?

  Fuck me up, like.

• 11:33Speaker 06

  You know, I was like, I was like, okay, is the CES, how much of CES is like, here's an actual product I can pick up, try, and how much of it is like we are selling so that another business can notice and buy it from us? Or an investor can back us?

• 11:47Ed Zitron?

  Right.

• 11:48Speaker 06

  Um, and so learning that the division and the amount in which any, many of these tech products fell, or the category in which many of these tech products fell, fell was interesting. I mean, the best part was for me, just like conversations with people as a chance to both reflect on what we were being seen or what we're being shown and what we, what we saw on the floor and what had been seen by other writers. And also just talking about the tech industry and media coverage in general. I feel like that was the part that actually, having analogously gave hope in the sense that it's affirming to hear other people, even if they are excited about things that I'm not.

• 12:26Ed Zitron?

  Mm hmm.

• 12:27Speaker 06

  Talk about the limitations of, the shortcomings of something that, you know, when I, when I was presented it as an object, felt like something that was like a staple in the industry that everyone loved and came to and understood, had its own integral role that was not to be scrutinized too much.

• 12:46Ed Zitron?

  Yeah. It's a weird show as well, I imagine for the first time, because it's like, when you don't know this format, this place is kind of insane. Just to map this out for the listeners. So we're in the Venetian, so we have one of the best places to be as far as the regular show goes in that we have a hotel, the Venetian, that has the Connected Sands Expo Centre, which is now called the Venetian Expo Centre. This is where a chunk of it is. Then to get to the LVCC, you have to either take an Uber and then walk a mile when your Uber guy goes, I'm not driving, I'm not gonna wait, man, it's gonna be two hours. You then walk probably a quarter of a mile to a door, and at that point you'll realise it's the wrong door.

• 13:25Ed Zitron?

  So you have to then walk another probably 0.1 miles to the badge person, who will then tell you now you may see the other badge person inside. You then, so at this point, you spent like an hour and a half getting there. And now you can get your badge from other places, so perhaps you arrived with it. Well, now you can walk through like a, what's probably about three miles of walking a day, just minimum in the main hall.

• 13:46Speaker 05

  Just to, no, it's three miles of walking just to get to it, and then.

• 13:50Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, okay, but I mean, like, just spending the day in there. And so after this, you just see like either the largest television or the biggest light, depending on the room you're in. And it's, I imagine it's kind of strange for me. I think I'm just kind of numb to it at this point.

• 14:07Speaker 05

  Do you remember the advice I gave you? For you, you asked, you've been, you've done this before, Phil, what, what should I go look for? And I haven't done this in a while, but just one of those, when you see the hall of TVs, unless you really want that, know that you've, this is nothing but that, keep moving through to look for something else, because a giant TV is a giant TV. And we've talked about a human who exists only to wave behind the transparent one. But the, the, take us back to ergonomics, the, the, the thing that Robert Evans said to me at the bar for,

• 14:43Speaker 05

  the best thing about the TV pavilion was not the TVs, but the incredibly cushy floor, so that he could actually rest his feet for a moment.

• 14:53Ed Zitron?

  Carpet is pretty sweet, but just to give you an idea, if you have never. Never done this before.

• 14:57Speaker 06

  A good chunk of it feels like being in a Best Buy on Black Friday.

• 15:01Ed Zitron?

  Yes, that's actually it. But no one's shopping, they're just loitering?

• 15:05Speaker 06

  Yes, yeah.

• 15:07Ed Zitron?

  And it's so weird as well, but I wouldn't have done it with anyone else. It's just interesting to see CES bounce off of someone, not because they're not trying, but because they've realized the edifice of CES, which is, hey, check out all the stuff we won't make.

• 15:22Speaker 06

  I would have driven a Tesla off the bridge if I had to come here myself with a.

• 15:29Ed Zitron?

  With like an outlet?

• 15:29Speaker 06

  Yeah, you know?

• 15:30Ed Zitron?

  Like a real person?

• 15:31Speaker 06

  Oh, my God. Especially because the mode of engagement would be much more different. I mean, here I'd felt like I got the chance to kind of drift around and each day I felt like I was focusing on a different part of the floor.

• 15:46Ed Zitron?

  Right.

• 15:48Speaker 06

  Based on what I did or didn't get to do, based on conversations I had with people, they're like, oh, I actually was really interested in this.

• 15:55Speaker 06

  And I think coming in with less preparation than an outlet might have had for me in the sense that like wasn't honed in and hunting for and prepping over how to how to think about and how to engage with like the fintech. It was more like I stumbled upon them. Oh, what a pleasant surprise. Oh, they're talking about AI agents. Let's talk for a little bit, you know?

• 16:18Ed Zitron?

  Right.

• 16:19Speaker 06

  It was, it felt like I got to experience it both as like maybe a consumer might.

• 16:28Speaker 06

  And also a bit as my capacity as someone who's wondering, okay, if the the the presentation of this is for the consumer, then like if you're walking around in it and you happen to know a bit about the industry or various products, what would you think about it? If you're also, if you're, if your intention is not just to like report it back to consumers so that they can get like a repackaged form of what's being presented here?

• 16:50Speaker 05

  This is one of the things I was really excited to hear yesterday from Cheryl and about the process that Engadget does for how they prepare to go to the show, which.

• 17:03Speaker 05

  It's fun with clean eyes to have none of that, just to encounter it face first smack into the wall. But that process from Engadget.

• 17:14Ed Zitron?

  Very cool.

• 17:15Speaker 05

  I had no idea and I'm happy I heard it.

• 17:18Ed Zitron?

  And I'm happy that the listeners heard it as well because, going back to the black pill thing, like, it's very easy to get cynical about the tech media. And I have been extremely critical of the tech media. But then you look at the people we've brought in, we had Carl Shenard from Las Vegas Sun, for example. Such a delightful surprise, that guy, young guy, but also getting into the labor stuff, the fact you've got someone who writes about tech because they're a reporter, not because they're a tech reporter. But then you look at Engadget, a place that people might say, "Oh, it's just a gadget blog," and they actually really tried. And it's interesting to see that there's so much personality in the tech media that just we had no, I really, I knew some of these people, but I didn't know how bad. They cook. A lot of them are like, all of, we didn't have one bum guest.

• 18:03Speaker 05

  Also, in terms of the eight years we've done this, from my point of view, in terms of providing respite to journalists, journalists, and indeed, it's catching, journalists getting respite in the suite for a chance to breathe.

• 18:19Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 18:20Speaker 05

  That's it. For the first time in all these years, I had, I had people once saying, "I'm so happy to be back. I'm so happy to get another drink for you. The five years of COVID, I've missed you."

• 18:33Ed Zitron?

  Oh.

• 18:35Speaker 05

  And also, Gare, just like, relaxed.

• 18:40Ed Zitron?

  And Gare, I just want to say again, Gare Davis is just insanely talented. I am so happy we got them on so many episodes.

• 18:46Speaker 05

  I saw, Gare is fairly high energy. You might have noticed from some podcasts.

• 18:52Ed Zitron?

  I adore it.

• 18:53Speaker 05

  But I watched Gare just sort of take a breath and slump into a chair for a moment they could be off.

• 19:02Ed Zitron?

  And I think the-

• 19:03Speaker 05

  It was nice.

• 19:04Ed Zitron?

  And I think of, Bear Offline is such a bizarre podcast, looking at Matt Asowski, it's like, "Yeah, it is." My producer, wonderful Matt Asowski.

• 19:13Ed Zitron?

  It's funny, this show started off as a joke and then it became something, no, it started off as a thing where I was talking about how pissed off I was about wet brothers like the Winklevosses or the rot economy and everything, but as we get to see-

• 19:27Speaker 06

  The blowjob brothers.

• 19:29Ed Zitron?

  Well, well, well, if it isn't the Winklevoss brothers. But it's, it's interesting how it's grown because I've been thinking about CES quite literally for a year. So Robert, Gare and I were sitting around at Spago, where we're actually going tonight. Take my boys out, got to treat the boys. That's the one thing, like, I'm lucky enough to have this podcast, I've been treating them, treating everyone, it's lovely. But in all seriousness, I was sitting there with Robert and Gare and just kind of like slightly worried both about the podcast, but I got that done. We don't need to belabor that. I really should stop repeating that, in fact. Anyway, I sat there, I'm like, shit, how am I gonna do CES? And I spent the year, and Phil and I have talked about this many, many, many times, and the thing I think that we needed to do, which I think we mostly did, was not just

• 20:12Ed Zitron?

  be like, hey, here's all the shit that you see at the show, you hogs, but also try and capture, even though people kind of hate it, try and capture the fact that there is a week-long thing in the tech media where everyone comes to one place, kind of parties together, then does journalism ostensibly? But like, there's this whole thing that's been virtually uncovered. It's just, this is like Aspen for tech media, except you really, I don't think as many dark thoughts when I think of it. And it's, and I think we successfully got that. And listeners, I would love to hear your feedback. You've been quite generous with it so far. Ninety-nine percent of it loved it, one percent calmed

• 20:52Ed Zitron?

  down. But it's in, I think we have successfully captured, Phil, what we have always captured here, which is, hey, here's just one fucking place you can sit down and like, try and like, process the things you have been hit with over the last week.

• 21:06Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah. Also, I just remembered it as I took a sip of Black Blood and Energy Courses through me again. I want to take a moment to give special thanks to someone who almost never gets thanked, that has made sure that this suite worked.

• 21:24Ed Zitron?

  Mothers.

• 21:26Speaker 05

  Give it up. Thanks, Mom. But also-

• 21:31Speaker 05

  Twenty eighth floor, housekeeping staff at the Venetian.

• 21:35Ed Zitron?

  Big up.

• 21:36Speaker 05

  Particularly Alice. Alice, you have made sure that I've been able to keep the filthy pigsty that I keep making of the place and people walking through look nice. I could not have done this without you, Alice.

• 21:48Ed Zitron?

  Thank you, Alice.

• 21:49Speaker 06

  Is that who wrote the note?

• 21:51Ed Zitron?

  No, that was, okay, no, there was a note in here that said, "Errol Deadhead, run." And that would be Robert Evans, the, uh, the like, uh, like the trickster god that I work for, the Mr. Mixy Piddlet. Yeah, he's, actually, yes, Robert is Mr. World. Exactly. Like a Crispin Glover figure that shows up to be like, "Mmm, podcast time."

• 22:14Speaker 05

  No, Alice is the one who gave me the extra ice bucket. Alice gave the welcome note to this room.

• 22:20Speaker 06

  Okay, cuz it said, cuz I noticed it, it said, uh, Alice underneath that.

• 22:26Speaker 05

  That's because I wrote her name down to make sure I did not forget.

• 22:29Speaker 06

  Right.

• 22:30Ed Zitron?

  Please don't kill me, Alice. But in all seriousness, no, the Venetian's been lovely. It's been so weird as well, just like standing up this thing. Uh, I don't know if everyone listening to this has like looked at my Instagram or my Blue Sky. I hope you have because I need attention, but also I want you to know like how great this setup has been. We've had this recessed area in the Venetian. And honestly, it's just been extremely heartening to, for two reasons. One, having some solidarity in this fucking tech media. It has been such a rough year for so many people. 2024 was an insane year, but also right now, the tech media feels, and I, I say this having done a thing where I yelled at them, but Lord almighty, I've never seen less solidarity, but I kinda saw it this week.

• 23:13Ed Zitron?

  Everyone seemed happy to see each other. When they got on the mic together, they were generous with their time. They were excited to vibe off of each other. There was no like vacuous competitiveness or anything like that. Everyone was so giving with their time. Not just with me, but with each other. They were shooting the shit. They were happy to see each other. It was great. And I think that this is a time where as things get a bit rough with big tech and within society, this is the time to pull together. And I'm happy that whatever this week has been, which is insane, by the way, just the entire idea. I hope that that has created that. And I hope that you, the listener, have heard that and and I was about to say appreciated that. I don't mean it like that. I mean, I hope you've got that vibe.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  Empower is all about helping you invest well so you can go out and live a little. And their free Empower Personal Dashboard shows you your full financial life in one place. You'll be able to see your net worth, monitor budgets, analyze your portfolio, set retirement goals, and more. Whether you're saving for something big, want to treat yourself, friends, or family, or meet long-term goals, Empower helps you see where you stand. You've worked hard for your money, and Empower can help you make the most of it. Download the Empower Personal Dashboard or visit empower.com. Not an Empower client paid or sponsored.

• 24:34Speaker 07

  Financial growth begins long before the first investment. It comes from understanding what you're building toward, what's at stake, and what success looks like for you. At Oppenheimer, we bring bold thinking guided by the full strength of our expertise to put capital to work building and protecting wealth that lasts generations. Put the power of Oppenheimer Thinking to work for you. Wealth Management, Capital Markets, Investment Banking.

• 25:06Speaker 05

  So you talked about the vibe, people together here, talking and happy. So effectively, I'm with the bar, I'm running the green room for what you're getting to hear over here. When people leave here and the next crew rotates in for your listening pleasure, the old crew does not immediately bolt for the door, they actually sat down with each other and enjoyed each other's time.

• 25:28Ed Zitron?

  I did notice that. And it's cool when we like cycle out people like Ed, like you go back to have a chat with them. And I realized like you've been like somewhat unimpressed with the actual stuff, but you seem to have had a good time with everyone.

• 25:41Speaker 06

  Oh yeah, I had a great time with everyone. I had a great time with the people.

• 25:44Ed Zitron?

  Yeah. And I think that it's so, it's about the people, but it kind of is. Like I'm here to see the doodads, the gizmos, the abs. No, it's to pull together the tech media, to have a conversation with people and try and actually talk about what happens here. Because as of what was kind of getting earlier, this place, like Vegas is a fascinating place in and of itself, but so is CES. Even if the stuff is kind of the same as last year, even capturing that mood is kind of important. And bringing you fresh was, I'm really happy.

• 26:10Speaker 06

  Yeah, and I'm really happy you brought me in. I mean, this was definitely an imprint experience.

• 26:19Speaker 06

  It's definitely left its mark on me.

• 26:21Speaker 05

  Would you have even dreamed coming into the, getting on a plane, coming to Las Vegas, that you were about to meet the crit readers for two of your favorite authors?

• 26:32Speaker 06

  No.

• 26:34Ed Zitron?

  Oh, my God.

• 26:35Speaker 06

  Crazy. Yeah, that was, that was such a wild turn of events. For listeners don't know, they are Father Gabriel and Phil are crit readers for Christopher Rock Casino and Charles Strauss, who are two of my, you know, favorite writers right now. Charles Strauss does sci-fi. Christopher Rock Casino does, is doing like a science fantasy series, Sun Eater, which you should definitely check out if you are interested in Romans and space.

• 27:09Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 27:09Speaker 06

  But, yeah, space Romans that are in the deconstruction of Dune and Star Wars, and also without like the turgid prose of Foundation, the Foundation series.

• 27:22Speaker 05

  These are the happy surprises that happen when you just sit down, start talking.

• 27:26Ed Zitron?

  There was a great moment where Robert Evans and Father Gabriel and Edom Gruisso Jr. was sitting around for like 20 straight minutes and they were having the, they were like, yeah, but Hegel and they were like naming all these philosophers. And I was just sitting there. And I think I understand what Babu, my cat, feels like when I'm talking to him. Cause I was just looking at it, just like, wow, I know these names, but they're connecting them in ways that clearly involve knowledge. And then after 20 minutes, I just said, fuck, is this what it's like? What's it like being smart? Anyway, that's the experience I bring to the sweep. But honestly, it's been kind of fun watching everyone just talk. I want this to be, and I want you, the listener, to be pulled into this and to kind of feel

• 28:10Ed Zitron?

  this because putting aside the very obvious and well documented side of CES of the it's full of shit that never goes anywhere and everyone's kind of annoyed.

• 28:18Speaker 05

  It's full of people.

• 28:19Ed Zitron?

  It's also full of people. Sorry.

• 28:22Speaker 06

  Sorry.

• 28:23Ed Zitron?

  Didn't mean to bore you there, Ed.

• 28:24Speaker 06

  No, no, no, I'm, I'm.

• 28:26Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, Ed is, Ed is, Ed is well drank and well fed, as we all are. But also we have had five straight days of just like our brains being punished.

• 28:35Speaker 05

  No, really, I, I think this might be a massage recovery. All the tension's been holding me together. They removed it and. I'm feeling real good.

• 28:44Speaker 06

  I've been rubbing my stomach for five hours.

• 28:47Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 28:48Speaker 06

  And I was rubbing it for five.

• 28:49Ed Zitron?

  I thought you were just accumulating wealth.

• 28:51Speaker 06

  I ran to this.

• 28:52Speaker 05

  Like the Buddha.

• 28:53Speaker 06

  Booth. I mean, I ran to the suite last night because I was gonna, because I.

• 28:57Ed Zitron?

  No, no.

• 28:59Speaker 05

  There was a crisis and it had to be addressed.

• 29:02Ed Zitron?

  Moving on. We're talking about how nice the solidarity here is. We don't know. No, no, no, no, no.

• 29:08Speaker 06

  There was solidarity there.

• 29:09Ed Zitron?

  No.

• 29:12Speaker 06

  I will, I will not elaborate.

• 29:13Ed Zitron?

  I was just about to do a whole thing about how like we've had a bunch of guys in the suite. And I think for the most part, we've done good, positive masculinity.

• 29:21Speaker 06

  Right.

• 29:21Ed Zitron?

  Uh, without talking too much about our bowel movements.

• 29:24Speaker 05

  No one got in his way.

• 29:26Speaker 06

  Is it tough?

• 29:28Ed Zitron?

  And then the beginning with the.

• 29:29Speaker 06

  I'm being open and vulnerable.

• 29:30Ed Zitron?

  I'm glad that we got Reuters's quotation on the horny check, like, but also I'm tired of people on the Reddit asking to, well, for one. But I think for the most part, we've, I hope we've shown like a bunch of guys hanging out have done, don't have to be like nasty assholes.

• 29:43Speaker 06

  Right.

• 29:44Ed Zitron?

  We've not been tearing each other down. And I want this, because this industry is very male dominated. And something we do want to do better next year is I want more women in this, more diverse voices like this thing. And I know some of you brought this up and it's a fair criticism. We had, we really only had like three one on, woman on there. And it's not enough. And so we're going to do a much better job next year. And we've already like making plans for this 2026. We are going to improve this show on that level, but also I think we are going to try and in as much as we can sync up on coverage with these outlets and actually bring them in. Because the big thing is, is like, Betroffline is pretty big now. I can't even say how big because I am told not to, but it's big.

• 30:26Ed Zitron?

  We have a real audience now. And the thing I think we can do with this show is first of all, show you the wonderful listener. What's going on in the tech industry and what's going on in the tech industry is not just the thing you see on the page. Even people have criticized, those people behind the byline are held by these restraints of editorial bullshit. But on top of that, there's only so much you can do if you're like writing about laptop, how much will you know about that person? So I want this show to be that now. And when it comes to things like CES, I don't know where else I go. I'm not going to South by, no.

• 30:57Speaker 06

  Yeah, you will. You gotta do it. You gotta see how crypto is taking it over.

• 31:00Ed Zitron?

  I don't want to. That sounds awful.

• 31:02Speaker 06

  It is awful.

• 31:03Ed Zitron?

  My friends aren't there. It's the people who.

• 31:05Speaker 06

  Molly White will go, maybe.

• 31:07Ed Zitron?

  Molly White's great, but I would rather just like fly to Boston or whatever.

• 31:10Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 31:11Ed Zitron?

  But nevertheless.

• 31:13Ed Zitron?

  This show is important to the tech industry.

• 31:15Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 31:16Ed Zitron?

  And yet it's completely uncovered what actually happens here. There's a lot of stuff about this robot does this and this vacuum has an arm now, but not the actual vibe, not the actual feel. And it's interesting to finally capture that and put it in a bottle.

• 31:33Speaker 06

  Yeah, no, that's interesting because when I was trying to look over covered to get a sense of what to expect, it really was just people talking about past products and not like actual morale, energy, enthusiasm or lack thereof.

• 31:48Speaker 05

  Impact to larger society and programs.

• 31:51Speaker 06

  As well.

• 31:52Ed Zitron?

  But even then, the tech industry and the tech media, it's full of these weird, wonderful people. We've had them all week and I feel like, and if you, the listener, disagree with this, please let me know. But it feels like people have responded really well to just hearing the people behind these bylines and actually talking about this.

• 32:09Speaker 05

  And that those people got a chance to expand on what they saw and what they felt in a way, maybe they've been constrained from doing for a while.

• 32:20Ed Zitron?

  And not even for malevolent reasons. It's just that if you are writing a gadget blog and you write about gadgets, there's not really much space for editorializing. Someone we didn't get on was Michael Fisher, one of my favorite YouTubers. And he has done a really good job of expanding his YouTube. I sound a hundred years old. He's got one of those YouTube channels with the videos now.

• 32:41Speaker 05

  YouTubeless.

• 32:42Ed Zitron?

  One of the light boxes captures his form. But he was here sadly missed him, gonna see him for, for dinner, I think next week. Nevertheless, he has done a really good thing of explaining kind of the ephemera around his travel, how like travel weighs upon him, how there are emotional contexts to places he goes, the societal parts. He did a great thing where he was in India, talking about the smog, for example. You can do more with this medium. And I think that there's so much more interesting things that we could do even with this show. Cause let's be honest, you've got, I don't actually know how many actual reporters are here because the list includes every single possible person who could ever mention words. But I would say there's at least 100 members of the tech media here, like dyed in the wool, actual tech media.

• 33:25Ed Zitron?

  And the fact is, there isn't a damn place where, other than like Twitter and Blue Sky, where they're actually, you're actually able to get to know these people. I want Better offline to be that on some level. It's not just gonna be that. It's not just the kind of mix of stuff, but I think it's a helpful function of what the show could be in the future.

• 33:41Speaker 05

  So something I, while I don't go to the floor because I'm bartending, something that I do get to do at DEF CON and at Photonics West is watching for governmental entities that are actually attending the show as well. I mean, it's a tradition at DEF Con to play the game Spot the Narc, which is if you can find the member of a given government agency, and they've started playing with it and actually having official booths and saying, can you guess which agency I work for? And if you do, they'll give you a challenge coin or a pin. But conversely, the DEF Con people will give them a shirt

• 34:22Speaker 05

  for the narc to wear. But our governmental agencies, our regulators are actually, just like me, interested in what's coming that I should be prepared for.

• 34:34Ed Zitron?

  Right.

• 34:35Speaker 05

  I like finding them and seeing what are you looking for?

• 34:42Ed Zitron?

  Right.

• 34:43Speaker 05

  If I could find someone willing to represent their agency that wanted to talk to us.

• 34:49Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, but no feds inside here, though. We don't let them in here. I mean, I will not allow. We're not having the government agencies in here. I will not. You can talk to them outside, but if you're a member of the feds, please don't come to my show. I don't think that's going to be fun. No, no, if they turn up, I'm going to have a word with them and then say, please don't hurt me. Please don't kick me.

• 35:11Speaker 05

  Well, actually, the hard part is the ones that are actually doing the things that are of interest, they can't talk. They're constrained by a public affairs office.

• 35:19Ed Zitron?

  Perfect. Wonderful. Then they have no reason to be here, then.

• 35:22Speaker 05

  But their interest is actually the public interest.

• 35:28Ed Zitron?

  They should listen to the show, then.

• 35:30Speaker 05

  They do.

• 35:33Ed Zitron?

  Well.

• 35:34Speaker 05

  And are generally happy.

• 35:36Ed Zitron?

  Okay, I hope they are because.

• 35:37Speaker 05

  At least the ones I talked to.

• 35:38Ed Zitron?

  I really don't want to get up, put in the gulag. But putting aside the FBI's clearly active interest in me. That's a great phrase to say out loud. I do want this place to be without the feds. An actual place where journalists come. And I know that there are some people have reached out to me and they've said they they weren't able to make it and such. We're gonna re move, we're gonna move stuff around next year. I I want to make sure there's more room for people. And Mr. Onguoso Junior, sounds like he will come back.

• 36:08Speaker 06

  Yeah, I would love to.

• 36:09Ed Zitron?

  And Mr. Roth will as well.

• 36:10Speaker 06

  You love me, I will be here.

• 36:11Ed Zitron?

  And Phil is stuck with me. But I think the thing I want to do differently as well is I want to really plan out the groups because. And I must be honest to the listeners, how much of this came together in real time. But also, I think he'll indulge me because what an insane thing I did here. Like, this has been very crazy.

• 36:30Speaker 05

  And it worked.

• 36:31Ed Zitron?

  I cannot believe it, I cannot believe how well it worked. And it's thanks to you guys and of course our producer, Matt Asowski, who built this whole setup. But it's interesting because something like this could actually be useful for people to understand the mechanisms of power within tech. Because I want people to realize how much of it's bullshit, sure, but how you've got journalists coming out here who are actually trying to find a way to cover it within the boundaries of journalism, which can be quite difficult. Because most people can't come on here and say, yeah, most of the shit I saw was bullshit. And that was broken and this is shit. Not necessarily because of the byline, but also how do you write that story?

• 37:09Speaker 06

  Right.

• 37:10Ed Zitron?

  How do you actually put that together? How do you actually say CS was full of dog shit? And.

• 37:15Speaker 05

  Please read the rest of my words after this.

• 37:17Ed Zitron?

  And I'll tell you the way you don't do that. Being sponsored by Delta Airlines. I will, I will voice my displeasure about Mr. Nelay, Mr. Nelay Patel. Uh, he is.

• 37:29Speaker 05

  A dirty, dirty man.

• 37:31Ed Zitron?

  Some management questions aside, Nilay had a chance to do something interesting at CES and somehow I did the more interesting thing, which is disappointing. But also, if you're being interviewed by the CEO of Delta Vacations,

• 37:44Ed Zitron?

  what who, what are you doing? Like, oh, sorry, you're interviewing them. To what end? To what point? And I feel like the people covering this show have got such a shit deal, but the ones with the largest microphones other than my own don't seem to be-

• 37:58Speaker 05

  In full disclosure, I, as a platinum medallion member for Delta, man, those are the emails I delete the fastest.

• 38:07Ed Zitron?

  It's just frustrating because people at The Verge, and I'm not attacking the writers there, because Victoria Sun was amazing on this.

• 38:13Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 38:14Ed Zitron?

  It feels like the people covering this show, some of them have potentially given up a little. The Verge should not have a live show where the summation of it starts with a fucking interview with a CEO of the worst part of the Delta experience.

• 38:29Speaker 05

  The mini CEO.

• 38:31Ed Zitron?

  And I saw people covering the Delta stuff just plainly, and it's like, who cares?

• 38:36Speaker 06

  Did you check out the interview? What was the interview itself?

• 38:39Ed Zitron?

  I have not listened to The Verge cast in some time.

• 38:41Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 38:42Speaker 05

  I'm not sure how you can cover that excitedly is the problem.

• 38:45Ed Zitron?

  I think that, no, actually, let me check my notes. I did listen. It was, um, let's see, it was James Tykleth, the CEO of Lockheed Martin, and he said that, "I love The Verge. It's my favorite publication." And then they were surprisingly joined by Hanwha Chairman Sungyeon Kim, who said how The Verge is the best place to find out about bombs. That is all the joke. I apologize. But nevertheless, it's-

• 39:13Speaker 05

  I thought you were serious.

• 39:14Ed Zitron?

  I've had that written down for a week. It's just frustrating because it's like, Nilay Patel, he can fucking do a better job. And honestly, there could be better things done at CES. The thing we've proven in the last week, not trying to pat myself on the back or anything, but- I don't even need to say that. The people who've come on have been really interesting and I think there's more that we can do. I don't even know whether to call myself part of the tech media or on a fucking PR firm during the day. I write a newsletter where I regularly make typos that really shouldn't be there. I just, I don't know, man. But nevertheless, it's like, there is more to be done and there's more to be done in the next year. And I think the way everyone needs to go right now is this move towards the question we've been asking all week,

• 39:56Ed Zitron?

  which is why does this have to exist? Who is it for? Why is, why? And I think, Ed, your frustration with this place is that question is so often not answerable somehow.

• 40:08Speaker 06

  Yeah. Yeah, deeply so. I feel like, um, or it is a a constructed individual that's not necessarily real as the tech industry is like so fond of.

• 40:18Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, they're solving for an imaginary person.

• 40:20Speaker 05

  That search for an investor.

• 40:22Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 40:23Speaker 05

  The, the product is them.

• 40:25Speaker 06

  I mean, I think, you know, the, the tech industry has gotten better in the years of constructing the sort or constructing the image that there is the person that wants what they are offering. I mean, I think the most recent example of this that was pretty poignant was the construction of the crypto voter as facilitated by Fair Shake and their, you know, pretty massive lobbying campaign to punish any candidate that seemed remotely anti-crypto to resounding success. I think like almost like a 90 plus percent um, um, hit rate for uh, winning races where they put up ads against

• 41:06Speaker 06

  or in, against anti-crypto or ostensibly anti-crypto, um, or insufficiently pro-crypto candidates.

• 41:15Speaker 05

  Yeah, that latter one is the really dirty one. You don't love us enough. Kiss the boot.

• 41:20Ed Zitron?

  But the imaginary customer.

• 41:22Speaker 06

  And the imaginary customer, there's this, this idea of a crypto voter, someone who is motivated by a desire to have a safe home for their crypto assets. They want to bank with, uh, they want it in a, in a bank that they would typically use. They want their dollars to be more easily transferable between or to these things.

• 41:42Ed Zitron?

  Right.

• 41:42Speaker 06

  They want to have more assets that can be, um, you know, that they can trade in their dollars or their tokens for, right? And I think similarly, sometimes when I see. You know, I think about especially the global pavilion for crypto, right? Where it's like, these people are sitting here talking about how, you know, for your brand, one way to increase its authenticity is objectify it, the company said, is to offer limited edition goods that will add an air of rarity to your brand.

• 42:17Ed Zitron?

  Like a non-fungible token of some sort?

• 42:19Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, they're all tokens, right? And, you know, these, the idea here is also when you listen to them closely, they're not saying like, they're not actually saying there's any use value. What they're saying is that we realized we have a use case for justifying our service, which is that you can make it more, your thing more exclusive in partnership with us. If you cut us a fee and you generate a useless token.

• 42:42Ed Zitron?

  Right.

• 42:43Speaker 06

  I feel like there is a lot of this where, you know, solution in search of a problem or a business in search of an opportunity to cut, to extract a fee.

• 42:54Ed Zitron?

  Rather than solving a need.

• 42:56Speaker 05

  Someone once asked me if I was willing to do limited NFT coded release labels on Black Blood of the Earth bottles so that they could have, someone could have their very own NFT run of Black Blood. And that would be an email that deleted.

• 43:14Ed Zitron?

  That would be so funny. I would, I would take such pleasure in watching you enter the blockchain.

• 43:20Speaker 05

  That was the point. They wanted black, block, black, blockchain coffee.

• 43:25Ed Zitron?

  Block Blood of the Earth.

• 43:27Speaker 05

  I hate you.

• 43:30Ed Zitron?

  So Ed, slightly, slightly different, slightly different direction. Do you actually like any technology? I don't mean this in like, you seem to enjoy your phone and such like you enjoy connecting with people.

• 43:42Speaker 06

  Yeah, I mean, I like, I like my phone, computers, screens.

• 43:50Speaker 06

  Um, but most things, I'm just like, I'm not really.

• 43:54Ed Zitron?

  Trains are cool.

• 43:55Speaker 06

  Yeah, trains are cool. I mean, if we're talking about, for example, non digitally mediated, I mean, of course. We're talking about digitally mediated, I really have to be, because I'm not interested in like productivity hacks or saving time.

• 44:08Ed Zitron?

  As a regular person.

• 44:09Speaker 06

  Yeah, you know, for me, like, it's like, the things I'm interested in, software and programs, you know, uh, that have helped me, I'm interested sometimes in, you know, I have a friend who, I, you know, I have a friend who I learned coding with the, what is it, like, maybe ten years ago?

• 44:28Ed Zitron?

  I, I, what in, like?

• 44:31Speaker 06

  Well, I don't talk about it because I don't like, uh, uh, doing it because I don't really, uh, care for much. And because the reason I don't talk about it is because it's always fun when I have, um, when a tech person gets a little mad at me, and I was like, why is this guy who doesn't even code? And I'm like, what about me makes you think I can't code?

• 44:53Ed Zitron?

  Please tell me. That's cool, though.

• 44:55Speaker 06

  Um, so, you know, especially with the more, the more recent wave of, uh, tools, of generative tools for coding supplements. I mean, you know, I've, I've kind of been inspired by like writing from like, Brian Eno and Yevgeny Moore's off to try and create like small applications that help us learn other languages. Cause I've been trying to learn Mandarin for a long time.

• 45:20Ed Zitron?

  Right.

• 45:21Speaker 06

  Um, you know, and so stuff like this is fun and interesting, like little trinkets, little, little, you know, uh, short desktop apps or, you know, uh, small little programs that help me in my daily life, but I don't, I'm not really interested in like some overhaul.

• 45:37Ed Zitron?

  It feels like what you're describing is the purest form of technology, which is why do we use the computer to connect with people or connect with ourselves a bit more? To actually truly love.

• 45:47Ed Zitron?

  What we want to do more to enhance ourselves. Because the reason I'm asking these questions is because there are some fucking idiots. I'm just gonna skip to that part. Who would just be like, well, it's just a hater.

• 45:59Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 45:59Ed Zitron?

  And I've got the same thing as an ad who is hating. Otherwise.

• 46:03Speaker 05

  Can I say a terrifying nice thing?

• 46:04Ed Zitron?

  Let him finish his point and then we'll get to you. Don't worry.

• 46:07Speaker 06

  I I am a hater in that I think that a lot of times.

• 46:11Ed Zitron?

  The greatest haters love.

• 46:12Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 46:13Ed Zitron?

  Anyway, please continue.

• 46:13Speaker 06

  When someone is talking to me or trying to convince me to integrate some algorithm or digital program into my life, what they're usually talking about is a way to like offload some of the cognitive burden.

• 46:27Speaker 06

  Or not actually cut through a stupid task or to not come up. For example, like, you know, me and my friend, we've. You know, you've you've getting more and more of his an inspiration for this, where he talks about in one of his essays about how he uses generative tools to try to create.

• 46:45Speaker 06

  Length and a group of language programs so that he'll try to talk in another language or answer questions in another language. And then based on the weaknesses, it will generate.

• 46:57Speaker 06

  Kind of questions and exams and stories that will test what he has shown a deficiency in.

• 47:01Ed Zitron?

  You know, this is. Like elements of how one structures a sentence, maybe?

• 47:05Speaker 06

  Yeah, grammar, sentence, structure, ambiguities of descriptive language. I mean, and this is stuff that interests us more than. The way in which we typically have been trying to learn the languages, especially, you know, because I'm doing, I'm trying to do Swahili as well. So Swahili.

• 47:25Ed Zitron?

  Very cool.

• 47:26Speaker 06

  And Mandarin and and he's doing Spanish and and Pashtun. And so it's like. There are a lot of the apps that off that are offered and a lot of the programs, a lot of the methods are, we simply either don't have the time to do them. Or the the gamification that's presented.

• 47:44Ed Zitron?

  Right.

• 47:44Speaker 06

  Is bullshit.

• 47:45Ed Zitron?

  Well, the Duolingo style.

• 47:47Speaker 06

  You know, so I'm if you if you can figure out a way to do it that is more closer resembling how a human to human interaction does it without trying to. Convince me that I need to offload onto some sort of platform, enter some ecosystem. Sure, I'm in, I'm interested, right? But most of the time you have to make, you have to make the case and it has to be a convincing case. Why an algorithm needs to be introduced into something that I'm interested in using. And I think that most of the times, if you actually spend time talking with the people about it and interrogating it, it doesn't pass the sniff test.

• 48:18Ed Zitron?

  Right.

• 48:19Speaker 05

  This is where it, the, the solving the language problem and the human interaction level. This is where I have to say the terrifying words. I love Uber. Cause it did one thing that they are not proud of, that they do not tout as a thing they can do.

• 48:42Speaker 05

  In general, Uber is toxin to regulated, uh, right, right environments. It destroys taxi networks, never mind adoption of tech, technology that taxis should have done to improve service. Uber obliterates that good ecosystem. However, in unregulated markets or ones that are highly corrupt and barter based where, I don't know.

• 49:09Ed Zitron?

  Such as?

• 49:10Speaker 05

  Such as Ukraine.

• 49:12Ed Zitron?

  Ah.

• 49:12Speaker 05

  And most of Eastern Europe.

• 49:13Ed Zitron?

  Now, your experience with this was pre-war though, right?

• 49:16Speaker 05

  It was pre-war. In, in Kiev, I do not speak Ukrainian, although my feeble language skills of, I, I speak English. I have technical Spanish. I can have commerce Spanish, but don't ask me to talk about poetry.

• 49:33Ed Zitron?

  If you make two Spanishes, I was doing a callback to another. Anyway, continue.

• 49:38Speaker 05

  But when I got done playing in the Great Patriotic War Museum and it was snowing, the first snow of the season in Kiev. And I did not feel like doing my normal thing of walking all the way across the city just to enjoy and absorb the city. And on international data rates, I downloaded Uber on the principle of I just want to get back to my hotel.

• 50:06Speaker 05

  Uber was able to, in within its app, allow me to arrange a ride.

• 50:15Speaker 05

  Negotiate, well, I didn't even want to negotiate, set price.

• 50:18Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, they're negotiating for you.

• 50:20Speaker 05

  Negotiated for me for a set price that is firm. And get my destination correct with a driver. Neither of us spoke each other's language. And it was seamless. That that is a thing they never tout. They are not proud of, but they do everywhere in the world. And with time, I did that in 2016. Their language translation on either end of their app has only gotten better.

• 50:48Ed Zitron?

  But the but the problem is that you're completely right, except for the fact that Uber also had a bigger opportunity that it didn't do, which was if they'd have grown sustainably and set real labor rates and demanded benefits, Uber could probably be a $15 trillion company.

• 51:04Speaker 05

  Oh, you mean actually be profitable?

• 51:05Ed Zitron?

  No, I mean, beyond that, if Uber had slowly grown and done it more than minimum wage and used their scale to actually commit themselves to getting real benefits rates for employees and grown like that, they could have actually grown to be probably the largest employer.

• 51:23Speaker 05

  In the world.

• 51:24Ed Zitron?

  In the world and actually giving people benefits. So they chose the other. And what sucks is that the reason they did what you just described, which is genuinely good, is so that they could find new people that spoke other languages to extract from.

• 51:38Speaker 05

  That was the first time I called an Uber of my own.

• 51:42Ed Zitron?

  I remember. And it sucks that they didn't do it to make sure that you could do the thing you did. It was just like, we had to get that extraction.

• 51:49Speaker 05

  I know.

• 51:50Ed Zitron?

  It fucking sucks.

• 51:51Speaker 05

  It makes me mad with the simultaneous. You made a human experience I couldn't have otherwise had.

• 51:59Ed Zitron?

  But is this not CES? A lot of ideas that are made up that could could be for ostensibly good reasons, but are really done for the investor.

• 52:06Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 52:07Ed Zitron?

  For the theoretical customer.

• 52:08Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 52:09Ed Zitron?

  Ultimately, everything we're describing that's good here is about actually connecting the smart cane.

• 52:14Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 52:15Ed Zitron?

  As glib as I might have been about it, people genuinely will find good in that.

• 52:19Speaker 06

  Yeah, I'm excited about that. Medical devices, these are all good. And I mean, and we've also, you know, we've talked before about how there are lots of algorithmic things that have nothing to do with consumer that are helpful, you know, that are.

• 52:33Speaker 06

  On the back end of helping test things or discover or do trials for various compounds, right? As long as you don't put, you know, I'm very skeptical of the generative tools that are being deployed for this, but you know, more traditionally, when they're done for this is, you know, is something that's interesting. I mean, there's a host of applications that we wanted to sit down, we could talk about. But you know, for me, the thing I don't hate, I mean, the thing I don't like and the stuff I just like kind of informs my, my antipathy towards it, my ludism is like, you know, usually when we have a venture capital firm, a private firm, a well, capitalized individual, a hedge fund, whatever, pushing a certain type of technology innovation, it's because they're

• 53:18Speaker 06

  interested in prioritizing the startup form, which itself already closes a lot of doors because you have to adopt a certain product, you have to adopt a certain value structure that so that you can pay the software tax or the, you know, cloud tax, or you have to, you have to figure out a way that you're going to, you know, organize labor so that you can have contractors and employees and, and all of these limitations, there's more energy being spent on evading all the barriers to maximizing potential valuation and profitability and market share instead of the actual technological innovation itself.

• 54:07Speaker 01

  Empower is all about helping you invest well so you can go out and live a little. And their Free Empower Personal Dashboard shows you your full financial life in one place. You'll be able to see your net worth, monitor budgets, analyze your portfolio, set retirement goals and more. Whether you're saving for something big, want to treat yourself, friends or family, or meet long-term goals, Empower helps you see where you stand. You've worked hard for your money and Empower can help you make the most of it. Download the Empower Personal Dashboard or visit empower.com. Not an Empower client paid or sponsored.

• 54:39Speaker 07

  We believe in starting with your financial goals, not a formula. At Oppenheimer, we put the full strength of our longstanding expertise to work, understanding your life and your ambitions, and designing the precise strategies that build and protect your wealth with confidence across this generation and the next.

• 54:59Speaker 07

  Put the power of Oppenheimer thinking to work for you. Wealth management, capital markets, investment banking.

• 55:12Ed Zitron?

  So we are at the end, I'm afraid. And yesterday you got my kind of teary goodbye to everyone. And to give you an idea of what the room was like yesterday, it was full of people and everyone was yelling and it was very fun. That's where you got the yes chef from. We have had an insanely cool crew of people, of course, led by Matt Salski, our producer here. But we've really gone through a lot of the tech media. And the thing I'll say for next year is I'm going to have more of them. We had 20 guests on this damn show, including the people in front of me as well.

• 55:40Speaker 05

  I have more liquor to serve.

• 55:42Ed Zitron?

  Indeed, he does. And it's fun. It's also, it seems like the listeners, and I want this to be an active conversation with you. You're on the Reddit, you email me, I loved it. Please get in touch on Blue Sky. You get in touch on Threads, I'm not listening. Like, I just want to be clear, like, I look down at you. Instagram DMs, absolutely. Threads, not so much. Why? I'm a hypocrite. Anyway, this has been an amazing show and I want to hear from you. But next year, we're going to be a bit more structured, but also it's probably going to be the same format. We're going to have more diverse voices and we're also going to get into more definitive subjects. I think the one thing I could have done, but there are a few things I could have done better. One thing I could have is subject matter and having the subject matter experts.

• 56:26Ed Zitron?

  We have people like Max Cherny and Davin Hardaway, who like really knew their chips, for example. We can wrangle that coverage far more specifically. But also, there was something fun about having the slop of the week just kind of wash over us because I wanted all of you listening to kind of get an idea of how obtuse a conference is. And I know some of you go to weird conferences and such, and thus you have this experience, but... Phil, thank you for being our bartender. Thank you for serving everyone. I really treasure your hard work and let's do nine next year.

• 56:59Speaker 05

  Oh yeah. Something I'm very proud of, that I started trying to kick in the sixth and seventh time we did this, was making sure I had non-alcoholic options available for people. I had more than ever available this year and I'm glad I got to give it to people who wanted it.

• 57:19Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, because this is not a place where you have to drink.

• 57:21Speaker 05

  Because most people who don't drink can't drink.

• 57:25Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 57:26Speaker 05

  They usually feel very assed out when they go to events at conventions like this. And I want people to feel welcome.

• 57:35Ed Zitron?

  And you are here. Like, I don't care if you don't have any substances. Maybe you don't even have food.

• 57:40Speaker 05

  You don't eat even gas station mushrooms.

• 57:41Speaker 06

  Yeah, I was just gonna say.

• 57:43Ed Zitron?

  Thank you, Robert, for the gas station mushrooms you brought in. I didn't take them because I don't just eat food off the floor.

• 57:48Speaker 05

  Or gas stations.

• 57:50Ed Zitron?

  I mean.

• 57:50Speaker 06

  I gotta introduce you to some of my friends.

• 57:52Ed Zitron?

  Yeah.

• 57:52Speaker 06

  Drug freegans, we would call some of them.

• 57:56Ed Zitron?

  Okay, that's.

• 57:57Speaker 05

  That's a new term. Thank you.

• 57:58Ed Zitron?

  That is a series of words that I will be unpacking for some time.

• 58:01Speaker 06

  I'll operate more off the pod.

• 58:02Speaker 05

  It's been a pleasure. It's been real fun.

• 58:05Ed Zitron?

  And this is kind of the, I was about to say the end of the rope, it's quite the opposite, the beginning of something cool because Phil and I have been doing this for so long and some of you have got in touch and like asked, it's, this was a suite where we brought our friends in from the tech media and now it's turned into something really cool that I look to grow and turn into something weird and fun every year. If you're a member of the tech media who was not on here listening to this, get in touch. If you're in New York, for example, we will be doing what you heard this week very regularly. Every other week, I would say, get in touch, maybe it's not the next episode, but I want a chunk of the tech media on there. I want, I want this, the tech media is full of such insanely fun

• 58:47Ed Zitron?

  and weird and wonderful voices. Tons of people so good on the mic that you wouldn't know. I want. To help with that, I want this to be something, Phil.

• 58:57Speaker 05

  And if you're coming to the Bay Area for some reason, I'm always happy to give the Phil Broughton tour, where I point at Manhattan Project things that aren't there anymore.

• 59:06Speaker 06

  Oh, you're on the Bay?

• 59:08Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 59:08Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 59:09Ed Zitron?

  Wow, we did how many hours and we just didn't reveal that?

• 59:12Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah, well, yeah, I live in the Bay Area and I work at a university that is somewhere in the Bay Area.

• 59:18Speaker 06

  I'll be, I'll be there 28 to 31st. Also, if you're in the Bay Area, 28 to 31st, you should come to my co-host, Jason Sadowski's book launch at City Lights.

• 59:27Ed Zitron?

  Hey, Jason, Jason Sadowski, of course, the inventor of the Habsburg AI term?

• 59:32Speaker 06

  Yes, and got the, got the heir apparent of the Habsburg empire to yell at him and say, this is a stereotype.

• 59:39Ed Zitron?

  Man, I am so jealous of him that that happened. I am so upset that I've not had like a-

• 59:47Speaker 06

  Habsburg AI and Potemkin AI, you know?

• 59:49Ed Zitron?

  Very nice. Those are my two favorite kinds.

• 59:52Speaker 06

  Right.

• 59:53Ed Zitron?

  Mine. But also, Ed Onguoso Jr., thank you so much. You have battled through this week for your first CES in, I would say the conditions have been chaotic.

• 1:00:06Speaker 06

  But I made it.

• 1:00:07Ed Zitron?

  He made it.

• 1:00:08Speaker 06

  My stomach made it.

• 1:00:10Ed Zitron?

  He cooked. But also, you're gonna see in the next year exactly how much Mr. Onguoso Jr. does. He is incredible and we've been so lucky to have him.

• 1:00:20Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 1:00:21Speaker 05

  I got to meet one of my favorite writers.

• 1:00:23Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 1:00:23Speaker 05

  I've been enjoying your work for so long.

• 1:00:25Speaker 06

  I really appreciate that.

• 1:00:26Speaker 05

  So it's been awesome.

• 1:00:27Ed Zitron?

  And I will say this, as I say every time when I meet you, man, I also got to have drinks with one of my favorite writers. Thank you so much for your time.

• 1:00:34Speaker 06

  I did too as well.

• 1:00:35Ed Zitron?

  It's been a genuine pleasure, I imagine for the listeners, but selfishly for me.

• 1:00:40Speaker 06

  Me too. I wouldn't have done it with anyone else, guys, so.

• 1:00:43Ed Zitron?

  Hell, yeah. And this is the thing, like, this has been very guy-weighted, but also, I want all the fellas to listen to remember that you can love your male friends and talk about how fucking rockin' they are and how much they've supported you all week. You don't have to be so fucking self-conscious, you fucking cowards.

• 1:00:59Speaker 05

  Compliment, compliment each other, man.

• 1:01:01Ed Zitron?

  Also, Ed is like the best dressed man I've ever fucking, every fucking day. I'm just swearing too much. Ed looks just amazing. I look pretty good, too. Don't say it.

• 1:01:09Speaker 05

  I'm jealous of his suit.

• 1:01:10Ed Zitron?

  Yeah, he actually has like the most wonderful- I wish I was this cool, but nevertheless, we've had an incredible crew of people. I want to start by thanking Jared Newman, the freelancer, Henry Casey of CNN underscore, Ed Niedermeyer of the Autonocast, Father Gabriel Mosher, of course, of The Church, Jesse Farrar and Michael Hale of Your Kickstarter Sucks, Tom McKay of IT Brew, of course, David Roth of Defector, Matt Binder of Mashable, Max Churney of Reuters, Gare Davis and Robert Evans, of course, if it could happen here, Phil Broughton, who's sitting across from me of what I've just written as miscellaneous.

• 1:01:48Ed Zitron?

  Devindra Hardaway, Carissa Ball, and of course, Shirlene Low of Engadget, Victoria Song of The Verge, Carl Shenard of The Las Vegas Sun, and of course, Matt Asowski, our incredible goddamn producer. You have been an absolute legend this entire time, we couldn't have done it without you, but we also could not have done it without iHeartRadio's Sophie Lichterman, and of course, Ian Johnson, who has been, he is literally dealing with the wildfires at the moment, and he is, we, like, we didn't hear from him, and it's like, oh crap, shit. And actually, I want to do a shout out to Miles Gray of the Daily Zeitgeist, the iHeart Radio show, he literally lost everything, I'll be dropping a link in there, don't feel

• 1:02:30Ed Zitron?

  obligated to, like, many people going through many things, but if you can donate, please do. And thank you from me. This has been a very personal podcast, a little too personal, and I have no idea if it's good or bad, I really don't know, you seem to be happy, but nevertheless, this is, you've all kind of witnessed my own personal journey with technology, and technology's been part of my life since I was 10, I think, and you've all been wonderful, and I think you like this, and I like doing this, I love doing this. We will be back in a year, I'll get to that in a second, we'll also be back next week, we're gonna have better offline radio in New York, I get on a plane to New York on Sunday, it's gonna be a complete nightmare, but-

• 1:03:12Speaker 05

  No, exciting, it's an adventure.

• 1:03:13Ed Zitron?

  It is, and I just love cooking, I could probably do another hour of podcasting, you're thinking, please, please, no more, no more, sir, we've had too much, but in all seriousness, we're gonna be back immediately with Paris Martineau, and of course, Jeff Jarvis of Twit and their various associations, but we are gonna be back in a year. And I've learned so many ways to do this, but the biggest lesson I've learned, and that's right, it's friendship.

• 1:03:39Ed Zitron?

  Is that everyone came together to support this show. Every single goddamn person who walked into this suite, walked in here intent on actually discussing what had happened. And everyone was so fucking wonderful. And I think now of all times, it's really easy to be kind of cynical and definitely pessimistic about the tech industry and say that there's nothing to redeem it really. And everything is growth at all costs. But I think that's reductive. I think it's something where you can look at the most powerful people and the things being talked about and lose the magic, which is as fucked up as the algorithms are making things, as detached as we might be from whatever social networks. This week has proven at the very least that there are human beings that truly love the computer

• 1:04:24Ed Zitron?

  and love the things that they can do with it and the people it connects with. I hope I've given you something in this week. And that's proof of solidarity with your fellow human being. And seeing that within this extremely boring, arduous show at times where most people are lying to you or thinking about ways they could put you in a position to lie to you more egregiously. There are people coming in here who are slightly excited or very excited about a smaller laptop because they're able to use the computer in a different place. So they're able to do more with their lives. And as Ed said, the algorithms, he could potentially use for more accurate linguistics. He could learn more about a language. There are many wonderful things that technology can do. And I've been quite emotional and I think you like it and I fucking love it.

• 1:05:10Ed Zitron?

  But I'm emotional because I'm surrounded by people who really give a shit. Emotional because every single person that's come through this door, the people running it, but even the people visiting have shown that there's not a single half arser in them. There's not a person that I've spoken to who has not deeply and meaningfully cared about something in technology. And there's nothing wrong with you if you truly love what technology has done for you. Nothing about this podcast is about trying to fracture you from the things that you love about it. If you're pissed off, I'm with you about the way it's being done. But what I hope I've shown you in the last week is that there are people that care as much as you do, if not more, people that love it as much as you do

• 1:05:52Ed Zitron?

  and people who share your frustration with the way things have gone. We will be back next week and we will be back in 2026 for the Consumer Electronics Show. If you've listened this long, I do love you all and I'm so grateful for you listening to Better Offline.

• 1:06:16Ed Zitron?

  Thank you for listening to Better Offline. The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song is Matt Osowski. You can check out more of his music and audio projects at mattosowski.com, M-A-T-T-O-S-O-W-S-K-I.com. You can email me at [email protected] or visit betteroffline.com to find more podcast links and of course my newsletter. I also really recommend you go to chat.weseyoured.app to visit the Discord and go to r/betteroffline to check out our Reddit. Thank you so much for listening.

• 1:06:48Speaker 03

  Better Offline is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:07:21Speaker 01

  Empower is all about helping you invest well so you can go out and live a little. And their Free Empower Personal Dashboard shows you your full financial life in one place. You'll be able to see your net worth, monitor budgets, analyze your portfolio, set retirement goals, and more. Whether you're saving for something big, want to treat yourself, friends, or family, or meet long-term goals, Empower helps you see where you stand. You've worked hard for your money and Empower can help you make the most of it. Download the Empower Personal Dashboard or visit empower.com. Not an Empower client paid or sponsored.

• 1:07:52Speaker 00

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.