The King is Broken, Battered, and Bloody… Long Live the Queen! (Aeschylus’ Agamemnon Part 4)

The king is dead and the queen killed him; Clytemnestra is ready to bask in the glory of her accomplishments... and introduce the man who helped her, just a little. Pre-order Liv's Odyssey adaptation (!!!), The Odyssey: a Modern Retelling. https://geni.us/TheOdysseyBook Submit your question for the next Q&A via email http://mythsbaby.com/questions or a voice note https://www.speakpipe.com/LTAMB. Get ad-free episodes and so, so much more, by subscribing to the Oracle Edition at patreon.com/mythsbaby http://patreon.com/mythsbaby. Enter ourpodcast guest https://www.mythsbaby.com/contact form if you'd like to be on the show as a conversation guest! CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. I try to provide direct warnings when there is reference to anything with overtly traumatic themes but be aware that Greek mythology regularly features assault, death, and many other potentially triggering events. Sources: Agamemnon by Aeschylus, primarily using translations by Anne Carson (from An Oresteia) and Sarah Ruden (from The Greek Plays); translation and original Greek from Perseus Project https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0004%3Acard%3D1; Early Greek Myths by Timothy Gantz; Topostext. Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here:mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Liv Albert?

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com slash group trip.

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• 3:05Liv Albert?

  Hi, hello there, welcome. This is Let's Talk About Myths, baby, and I am your host, Liv. Absolutely obsessed with this series on Aeskalis' Agamemnon and just, it's fucking joyful. And, you know, it's funny, this is one of those plays, I'm so excited that I decided to, to choose it for this moment, especially, you know, when it's been me being, trying to get back into writing these scripts after so long, but also like whilst I watch feminism, what little we had of equality sort of drain away due to late stage capitalistic patriarchal

• 3:50Liv Albert?

  bullshittery. And, you know, it's just been, it's been hard, it's been hard to like, be like, oh, I've been doing this for eight years and I have been, you know, sharing all of this stuff and discussing all of these wider gender issues. And in those eight years.

• 4:07Liv Albert?

  The progress that we did have has, um, is just like actively being reversed. It's like super cool. It's super cool that like every week, there's a, a new investigative article about just how many men are actually working together to drug and rape their wives. Like, there's like so many parts of the internet that are, um, actively teaching that and facilitating it and like, just, just guys like sharing, sharing their knowledge. Um,

• 4:43Liv Albert?

  so anyway, um, you know, I got a super misandrist tattoo the other day and now I wrote this episode. So it's been a little cathartic. It's been a little cathartic. Yeah. And this one, I mean, we are going out with a bang. This, I'm again, again, so glad I picked this one. And this is one of those things, like I've talked about this a lot of ti- a lot, but I, I mean, I haven't reread the Agamemnon in a long time. You know, I have covered the story on the show more as the overall mythos, as it's kind of come down through every source, right? And the, all of the three tragedians work on this story.

• 5:24Liv Albert?

  But when I was in university, the first class that I ever did that was dedicated, like entirely to Greek tragedy was, um, I mean, well, it was a Greek tragedy course, but what my prof, uh, who has actually been on an episode of the show ages ago, um, what he decided to do with this course that was just about Greek tragedy was to not just pick, you know, a, a handful of different plays from sort of the overall corpus. But what he chose to do, and I'm so glad, because it really shaped how I see this, is that that entire course was just us covering the Oresteia, not just Aeschylus', but the overarching story.

• 6:05Liv Albert?

  Because like I've said in at least one of these episodes, remember this is the only myth, well firstly, this is the only trilogy. That is, that exists, that survives in, in a full form. Like, we know that particularly Ischylus put out these three plays as a trilogy, a beginning, middle, end, in a way that, you know, there were other trilogies produced in the ancient world, um, but they don't survive. And there are other trilogies that exist, like, for instance, the Oedipus trilogy of plays, but they were not written and performed as a trilogy. They were written separately, just about the three events. And so this one's really unique, but also on top of that,

• 6:48Liv Albert?

  of course, this is the one story where we have plays that survive from all three surviving tragedians. We have this play, which is, Ischylus is the earliest tragedian, so his play, his trilogy, the Agamemnon, there are so many different names, I almost caught myself, there are so many different names for the second play, it's the choryphery in Greek, and usually the libation bearers in English. And then the third is the humanities, um, the kindly ones, right, the, the play about the Furies and Orestes afterwards. And then there's also Sophocles has his plays, which, you know, were written a handful of decades after Ischylus, he has the Electra. And then Euripides, another, I don't know, but definitely a handful of years, he and Sophocles were contemporaries,

• 7:31Liv Albert?

  but Euripides was a bit younger. So, uh, you know, another handful of years, and then Euripides is performing, he has, uh, his Electra and his Orestes. And so we have six plays that are all dedicated to the same overarching storyline and like family drama. And that is so fucking unique. What it also meant, though, is that, like, so I learned how to look at Greek tragedy based around that, which was so interesting, because it was a really, really impactful way to learn about, you know, not only how these stories encompass surviving mythos, but also how they existed as like art forms, right? And like, as like a, a,

• 8:13Liv Albert?

  a piece of art, a fictional piece of art being performed. Um, but simultaneously, what that ended up doing is that it also got it into my head that, you know, it's why I I covered this play as like, or this story as a story rather than a play in the past. And I've been like a little hesitant to go to the, this Ischylus play. Just because I, you know, I love to pick Euripides plays take a while. And so I, you know, I'm, I'm somewhat sparing. But over the years, enough really, really interesting women have come on my show and mentioned. Ischylus's Clytemnestra as such an incredible example, um, as a woman in myth. That I finally did it and they're right, they're right. This is so good. I really did have it in my head too, that Agamemnon would have more lines.

• 8:57Liv Albert?

  Um, like I know, obviously, you know, based on the story, like he's not in this much, but I definitely thought. That he would say more because gods, he said so little. I like that it's called the Agamemnon too, like. Because it almost feels like it was like a, um. Like a, like a trick by Ischylus, like, like an intended, you know. I'm going to name this play the Agamemnon because this is a story that every Greek knows. They know exactly how it's going to go down, you know, they, they will expect it to be primarily about the king, this Agamemnon. They know he's going to get murdered, but like, it's about the king.

• 9:34Liv Albert?

  And then meanwhile, like every powerful performance is a woman, you know, Clytemnestra and Cassandra are really the only characters that like truly. Matter in this play. And like the chorus is kind of, I mean, they're, they serve so many roles as a chorus, but as characters, like. They're just kind of there to sort of prod at Clytemnestra and, and kind of be useless as we'll see in this last part. And it, and then Agamemnon honestly, like handful of lines and then he's out and it's just. It's a, it's delightful. It's delightful. I really enjoy this Clytemnestra. I also, one thing that I've really taken from this series is. The ways in which she is compared to a man.

• 10:20Liv Albert?

  And it's fucking fascinating. And if I didn't already say this in the last episode, because now time is becoming a smush, I'm going to do an episode, not immediately, because Michaela's coming back to do some history for you guys next week, but I'm going to do an episode on Clytemnestra, and specifically Clytemnestra as, as like a masculine figure, or like a performative masculine figure. Like, there's so many moments in this play where she is described as a man in these really relevant ways. And then simultaneous, as we'll see here, like, there are moments when a man is described as a woman in like, really equally impactful ways. And I'm fucking fascinated now. And I've, I didn't mean to spend seven minutes in this introduction. So apologies. This is just so much fun. Let's

• 11:05Liv Albert?

  get, let's get right into it. Uh, we're, this is the end. This is the end. And it's so good.

• 11:26Liv Albert?

  The king is broken, battered, and bloody. Long live the queen. Aeschylus' Agamemnon, Part Four.

• 11:49Liv Albert?

  Agamemnon is screaming from inside the palace, screaming for his life. Only the chorus remains onstage now. Cassandra has walked to her fate. She knows exactly what she's heading towards as she entered that palace. But now, the chorus remains. Everything else is happening elsewhere. We can only hear it and imagine. Remember, the chorus has just mused on luck, fortune. No one ever has enough good luck. They'd never turn down a little more. Quote, "Agamemnon won from gods the right to capture Priam's city. If he must

• 12:34Liv Albert?

  shed his blood to pay for others in the past, and then by dying, pass the debts to others in the future, who in the world can say that he is safe?"

• 12:45Liv Albert?

  The chorus is saying what we're all thinking. It looks like waging a decade-long genocidal war of aggression, even when you believe it's been sanctioned by gods themselves, can't save warmongering men from the consequences of their violent actions.

• 13:03Liv Albert?

  And so again Agamemnon screams, quote, "I am struck." Then a moment later, quote, "Again, I am hit a second time. Their king is dying, not just dying, their king is being murdered inside his very own home." Bummer. This is a Greek tragedy, of course, so all the action, all the violence, all the gore takes place offstage, inside the palace. It's only the audio track that the audience and the chorus hears. It builds the tension, it allows the characters remaining on the stage to speculate, to describe, to worry about their king.

• 13:44Liv Albert?

  The chorus, each of them now speaking individually to each other, does exactly that. Quote, "Those screams imply the deed is done, but let's go slow. My advice is to summon the townsfolk here. I say burst in and catch them unaware." Something like that, something like that, I agree. "It's obvious they're laying the ground for tyranny, and we're wasting time while they defy the goddess named Delay." They go on, another doesn't know what to do next, so they just say that instead. Another points out that their words can't bring him back if their king is already dead. "And wouldn't his murderers just kill them too? What's worse?"

• 14:25Liv Albert?

  They continue, still taking turns with each line, quote, "So from two screams, we're saying the king's a dead letter? Well, let's not get upset till we clarify this thing. That's my vote, find out what's going on with our king."

• 14:42Liv Albert?

  They're lacking a sense of urgency, but it's no matter.

• 14:48Liv Albert?

  Clytemnestra reappears on the stage now, but she's not alone. She's the only one alive, but she's not alone. And just like she rolled out the red carpet for her warlord husband now, she rolls out the results of all her hard work and planning. As Anne Carson writes in her stage directions, quote, "Dead bodies of Agamemnon and Cassandra are displayed on the stage with Clytemnestra standing over them." Or as Sarah Ruden's stage directions describe, a bit more bluntly, quote, "The palace doors open and Clytemnestra is revealed, standing over two bloody corpses."

• 15:41Liv Albert?

  There's a very specific device used in the production of Ancient Tragedy, and this is one of the most iconic uses of it. It's called the ekiklema, and it was a rolling platform. The word itself basically means "rollout device." It was designed for moments like these, moments when the violence, the murder, and the gore, the deadly screams have all taken place offstage and now must be revealed to the audience in the most dramatic and visually satisfying, viscerally impactful ways. So battered and bloodied corpses are rolled out on this ekiklema,

• 16:24Liv Albert?

  revealing all that's happened behind closed doors. Clytemnestra stands over the bodies of her husband and his stolen human war prize, and she begins to speak to the chorus. She's not sad, she's not sorry, she is righteous and so proud. Quote, "I said a lot of things before that sounded nice. I'm not ashamed to contradict them now. How else devise damage for an enemy who passed himself off as a friend? How else fence up nets high enough to catch him? It's a long, long time I've been pondering this. Crisis of an ancient feud."

• 17:07Liv Albert?

  She goes on, and again, please don't come for me, Carson, because this translation is so good and I just have to quote more of Clytemnestra's speech.

• 17:18Liv Albert?

  "Finally, I say, finally, I stand where I struck with the deed done. I did it. I make no denial. So he could neither flee nor save himself. I threw round him a cloth with no way out, a sort of dragnet, evil wealth of cloth." She's not finished, even if my quote must be for a bit. Clytemnestra doesn't feel even a tiny bit of remorse for what she's done, and we love that for her, especially right now, honestly. This year alone, again, I wrote it in here and I already set it up at the top, I'm saying it again because I wrote in the script, this year alone, I've seen more articles and evidence on the millions of men who have teamed up with others to share tips on how to drug and gang rape their wives and partners and, well, ladies,

• 18:02Liv Albert?

  I think we need to be taking a few pages out of Queen Clytemnestra's book.

• 18:07Liv Albert?

  "When the actions warranted, Western laws, they're not saving us. Rape culture has infused itself into every tiny aspect of our culture and, yes, okay, Paris Paloma's labor is playing in my headphones as I type this, but that's just a delightful coincidence of my playlist." Clytemnestra continues to describe how exactly she murdered her husband and why it was entirely warranted.

• 18:34Liv Albert?

  "I hit him twice," she tells the chorus, and us, the audience, almost all of which, I would like to remind you, would have been men. This is an audience of men, a chorus of men, even Clytemnestra herself is played by a man." She says, quote, "Two screams and his limbs go slack. He falls. I strike him one more time, three for Zeus, the savior of corpses."

• 19:00Liv Albert?

  She goes on. Clytemnestra describes how her husband died, how he sprayed her with his black blood, how it felt like dew and made her happier than when the fresh green buds of crops are watered by spring rain.

• 19:15Liv Albert?

  Her speech coming to an end, Clytemnestra still stands over the bloodied bodies of her victims. Quote, "That's how things stand, old men of Argos. Rejoice if you want to, I am on top of the world. And this man has the libation he deserves. He filled this house like a mixing bowl, to the brim, with evils. Now he has drunk it down." The chorus is taken aback, to put it lightly. They're amazed by her confidence. They're shocked that she'd boast about what she's done. Clytemnestra tells them not to bitch. She's not some insipid woman. Quote, "I am fearless, and you know it."

• 19:56Liv Albert?

  She tells them she couldn't care less whether they are happy or angry with what she's done. She doesn't need their attention at all. Quote, "Here lies Agamemnon, my husband, a dead body, work of my righteous right hand. That's how things stand." The chorus just cannot fathom a woman capable of such evils. Why, this is something a man would do. This is an ongoing theme. Clytemnestra must be manly for how murderous she is. That says a little bit more about them than us, I think. "What, did you drink poison or something?" they ask her. "Only that could make you so insane."

• 20:39Liv Albert?

  They tell her that she's ruined for what she's done, that she'll be cursed, ostracized, homeless. Clytemnestra replies, quote, "Oh, now. Now you pull out your code of justice. Call me accursed, demand my exile? What about them? What about him? This man who, without a second thought, as if it were a goat dying, sacrificed his own child, my most beloved, my birth pang, my own. And he had flocks of animals to charm the winds of Thrace." I'm obsessed with this woman. And she goes on to, she continues telling off this chorus and pointing out the horrors of Agamemnon. Shouldn't he have been the one punished for murder?

• 21:23Liv Albert?

  Shouldn't he have been the one exiled?

• 21:27Liv Albert?

  She, she truly doesn't care what will come of, for her, because of this act. She doesn't care what comes next. It doesn't matter. The revenge has been done, and the man who murdered her daughter, a living being, birthed from Clytemnestra's own body.

• 21:46Liv Albert?

  That revenge is all that mattered. Ifagania was all that mattered. But gods, Clytemnestra must be so manly to have murdered a king.

• 21:57Liv Albert?

  The chorus calls her, as Carson translates, "a staggering egoist." They tell her she's mad from the murder.

• 22:07Liv Albert?

  I think it's pretty clear that she knows exactly what she's done, what she's doing, that she's infinitely aware of the ramifications. She simply doesn't care. This man murdered her daughter. Her daughter. If no one else was going to make him pay for that crime, if even the war didn't punish him for it, well, she was going to, one way or another. "Listen very carefully," she instructs the chorus, "I did this for the gods of justice, ruin, and revenge. I am not worried about what happens next." She's not worried, Clytemnestra explains, "because she has Agis this." And yeah, you did hear me become a little less excited, because sometimes I do forget that she had a man's help.

• 22:52Liv Albert?

  And quite frankly, I wish she hadn't needed it, but alas, here's Agis this. And still,

• 22:59Liv Albert?

  with a backstory like his, it's not unsatisfying. But it's not about him. He was just there to shield her from Agamemnon's defenders. What matters is that the king is dead and gods, he deserved it. Clytemnestra points to the bloodied corpse of her murderous husband and says, quote, "Here lies the man who despoiled me, darling of every fancy girl at Troy, and by his side the little prophetess who sweetened his sheets. Sweetened the whole army's sheets, I shouldn't doubt. They got what they deserved, those two. Yes, here he lies, and she like a swan that has sung its last song beside him, his true love, his little spice berry."

• 23:41Liv Albert?

  You know, to look at them, kind of excites me.

• 23:47Liv Albert?

  Oh, she's so good. I'm obsessed with this Clyde of Nestra. I'm less obsessed with that she killed Cassandra, but I can see how she got there. Naturally, the chorus's reply is to remind everyone that all of this is the fault of a number of women, and the men were simply beholden to those feminine wiles. They were helpless. "Poor Agamemnon," they sing. "Their guardian king, he was sent to war and suffering all for a woman, and now he's been killed by a woman's hand."

• 24:20Liv Albert?

  I'd make some quippy comment about men being able to find truly absurd ways to blame women for their own mistakes and loneliness, but I rolled my eyes so hard I got dizzy.

• 24:31Liv Albert?

  Poor men. They have it so hard.

• 24:47Liv Albert?

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• 26:13Liv Albert?

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• 29:43Liv Albert?

  Helen, wild, mad Helen. That's how the chorus continues. It was a quote. "It's not enough to just imply that women are to blame for every action that men in their vicinity take. They must detail exactly why this woman, being forcefully abducted by a man, actually makes her personally evil."

• 30:05Liv Albert?

  "Helen, wild, mad Helen, you murdered so many beneath Troy. Now you've crowned yourself one final, perfect time, a crown of blood that will not wash away. Strife walks with you everywhere you go."

• 30:20Liv Albert?

  At least their nonsensical accusations were poetic. I think Clytemnestra would happily pluck that bloodied crown off her sister's head and place it on her own.

• 30:31Liv Albert?

  "Stop whining," she yells at them, "and why get angry with Helen, as if she single-handedly destroyed those multitudes of men, as if she all alone made this wound in us?"

• 30:44Liv Albert?

  Why, indeed? But the chorus's response is, naturally, not to address that deeply reasonable question. They can't actually sit back and consider how and why, they feel warranted blaming women for the actions of the men around them. Instead, they try calling out to whatever evil spirit is haunting this cursed house of Atreus, whatever evil spirit is causing such harm to the sons of Tantalus. Quote, "You whose power comes from women, whose voice is like a crow, you perch upon the corpse harshing out your hymn of joy."

• 31:20Liv Albert?

  I imagine you don't need the reminder, but here it is anyway. The curse on the house of Atreus comes from the following generational actions. One, the male king. Tantalus killed his son and then tried to feed him to the gods. Two, the male king Pelops murdered a man as a means of marrying a woman. Three, the male king Atreus turned against his male brother Thyestes, murdering Thyestes's two male sons and attempting to feed them to their male father. And finally, the male king Agamemnon agreed to sacrifice his daughter as though she were nothing more than livestock, all because his male brother's wife was abducted forcefully

• 32:04Liv Albert?

  by a male prince of Troy. So yeah, as you can obviously see, it is the fault of the women, there's no question. There's no question.

• 32:17Liv Albert?

  Now, in truth, they're naming deities here, the Furies, when they blame women. And naturally, those spirits, of course, those spirits are female, because the men, they do love to fear the divine wrath of goddesses, even if they don't respect the rights of the mortal women around them.

• 32:34Liv Albert?

  Mommy issues, I think.

• 32:37Liv Albert?

  "Now you're talking sense," Clytemnestra says to the chorus, quote, "to call upon the thrice-gorged evil demon of this family. Deep in its nerves is a lust to lick blood, and no wound heals before the next starts oozing."

• 32:55Liv Albert?

  That's so good, so good. The chorus thinks this evil spirit is angry for what she said. "They scream for Zeus's help," or rather, "they call out to Zeus. Everything is caused by him, everything is done for him. They lament the loss of their king, oh, how they loved their king. Now he lies, caught in his spider-wife's web net, the lifeblood leaking out onto the stage, and wife holding the blade." "You think this is all because of me?" Clytemnestra asks with what I imagine is a low chuckle. "No, the evil spirit with a lust for revenge was born at the table of Atreus, when he

• 33:40Liv Albert?

  killed those children, his own blood." "Oh, and I suppose you're guiltless, then?" the chorus of whiny old argive men ask. "You're not blameless?" Quote, "Oh, yes, some spirit of vengeance may have been your secret sharer. Ares is black with wading through blood, and he will get justice for the clotted gore of children used as food."

• 34:06Liv Albert?

  So they'll acknowledge the horrors of Atreus, but not so much as to relieve Clytemnestra of all of the blame. The chorus continues lamenting their dead king, they continue lamenting the spider web that she has trapped, and killed him in.

• 34:22Liv Albert?

  His death was necessary and righteous. He deserved it, Clytemnestra tells the chorus. All his suffering was justified. It was Iphigenia who suffered unnecessarily. Young Iphigenia, who never had the chance to grow up. "Oh, poor us," the chorus cries. "Poor, poor us." "We elder, elite men have it so hard." Okay, fine, that's mostly my rewrite, but they are just as pathetic. They are just as useless. "They don't know what to do, or what to say, where to go." Quote, "A storm of blood beats on the roof. No, more little drops. I'm terrified."

• 35:05Liv Albert?

  "Justice is sharpening a second sword on a second whetstone."

• 35:11Liv Albert?

  "Poor, sad Agamemnon," they continue. "Who's going to bury our beautiful, wonderful king? Who's going to mourn him?"

• 35:21Liv Albert?

  "I really don't give a shit," Clytemnestra might as well say in reply. "I killed him. He died because of me, so I'll bury him, I suppose." "But there will be no mourning, no women wailing or tearing at their skin." Quote, "No. Iphigenia will open her arms and run to meet him in Hades." "A father-daughter embrace. Won't that be perfect?"

• 35:55Liv Albert?

  The chorus remains lost, useless, utterly bereft of agency. They just cannot handle how righteous Clytemnestra is, how little remorse she feels. They just cannot handle a woman lacking shame or guilt. A woman who believes in what she's done and is more than willing to face whatever consequences might be in store. Because what she did was just. What she did was necessary. But the chorus is worried for the rest of the city, the rules of law and order. They fear that the city will suffer for what she's done. But that's not Clytemnestra's intention.

• 36:37Liv Albert?

  "I'm more than happy to swear a truce," she tells them. This was the only violence she sought. Her bloodlust has been sated. She's content, at least for now. Quote, "I'm happy with a tiny share of the wealth here, if I can stop us all killing one another."

• 36:56Liv Albert?

  Did she say socialism? Despite how the chorus speaks to her, despite what they want us to believe, the Clytemnestra that Iscalus presents us with is reasonable, sane, and seemingly only concerned with enacting this piece of justice that he deserved. She is not out to terrorize the city, but she also couldn't let her daughter's murderer just return home with a human prize and a warrior's fanfare.

• 37:24Liv Albert?

  And just then, just now, this is it. Clytemnestra's boy toy turned partner in crime, Agisthus, takes the stage. Don't worry, he has very little to say, much like Hagamemnon, and his background, again, is, well, it's not irrelevant to the crimes at hand.

• 37:44Liv Albert?

  "Happy Day of Justice," he says to the chorus and Clytemnestra. Like, not literally, but he might as well have, because this man is very happy with what has gone on in the house of Atreus. Quote, "When I see this fellow lying in robes that the Furies wove, it's payback for his father's crimes."

• 38:05Liv Albert?

  Now, I've already given you a reminder of why, exactly, this house is so fucking cursed, but not to worry, Agisthus is here to tell his side of the story. Quote, "For Atreus, you know, who was ruler of this land and this man's father, drove Thyestes, who was my father and this man's brother, am I making myself clear, out of his city and away from his home. Then when he, Thyestes, returned as a suppliant to his, Atreus's, hearth, Atreus, set before my dad, with hospitality more zealous than kind, a merry meal of his own children's flesh, the toes and fingers he chopped up, especially small."

• 38:54Liv Albert?

  He goes on, Agystas reminds us what his family has been through. He reminds us all that not only did Atrius murder the two young boys, his own nephews, but then he fed them to their own father.

• 39:08Liv Albert?

  But Atrius, and in turn, his son Agamemnon, didn't get so lucky. Thiestes had another son, a boy who never got the chance to meet his two older brothers because their uncle had murdered them and fed them to their father before he was born.

• 39:29Liv Albert?

  And that's Agystas. Quote, "Justice brought me back. From exile, I laid my finger on this man, devising every detail of his doom. And you know, even death would be sweet to me now. I've seen him caught in the nets of justice."

• 39:50Liv Albert?

  The chorus tries to tell him off, but it doesn't have much bite. They tell him that he should be up for death by stoning, but even that doesn't have much oof to it. Agystas nearly laughs, tells them to stop squawking, that they may be old, but one day, maybe they'll learn to control themselves. "Don't you see?" he asks, "If you kick against the pricks, you'll hurt yourself." To which the chorus replies by calling him a woman. Quote, "You skulk at home while men are off at war."

• 40:25Liv Albert?

  Agystas just laughs and says they'll be sorry, that their voices are the opposite of charming, that they're grating and obnoxious, they're just a pest to him. "As if you could be our king," the chorus jeers at him, "you who dream of a king's murder but had not the nerve to do the deed yourself."

• 40:45Liv Albert?

  You let a woman do it, they're practically saying, "Oh, gosh, a woman." And again, I like to think Agystas just kind of laughs before he replies, quote, "Well, no. To entrap him was the wife's work, obviously."

• 41:02Liv Albert?

  So good. He might as well just roll his eyes at the chorus's ridiculous baiting. It's not an insult that this was Clytemnestra's role to play. It's just the smartest plan. So long as the man planning is capable of recognizing women as equally competent humans. He might as well just look at the chorus and say like, duh. Before he reminds them that it might have been a little obvious if actually he, Agamemnon's family member, exiled family member and sworn enemy, had been the one to welcome the king home rather than his wife. He like, he's like, I'm not fucking stupid. That would not have worked.

• 41:44Liv Albert?

  He's a wife guy. Uh, except not actually. And they're definitely not married. I really think this relationship is just giving mutually beneficial revenge plots. But hey, maybe they like each other too. Like that would be kind of nice for Clytemnestra. At least until her son gets home. "If you're so happily evil, why didn't you kill him yourself?" the chorus accuses. "It's awfully womanly to let a woman do it for you." Now, it's, gasp, a woman who has cursed this land even more? The chorus thinks, just for a brief passing moment, that maybe, maybe the king's only son, Prince Orestes, will return and save them and uh. This devolves. The boys are fighting.

• 42:29Liv Albert?

  The chorus tries to exert some power. Agisthus follows it by having his own guards arm themselves. The, the men trade jabs, threats of death, blah, blah, blah, until Clytemnestra interrupts them. And her tone is different now. She knows how this works. She, this woman is brilliant. Penelope is known for her wisdom, but we, I see this in Clytemnestra. Penelope is the type of wise that men want in a woman. Clytemnestra is the type of wise that men are afraid of. And I love that for her. She speaks sweetly to the men now.

• 43:09Liv Albert?

  She puts on the calm voice of a warm mother asserting her control. Quote, "No, no, no, my dear darling. No more evil. The harvest is in. We have enough pain, enough bloodshed."

• 43:30Liv Albert?

  She tells the Argives, the elders, to go home, that what's done is done, that it had to be done. Quote, "And if it ends here, we are content. Some demon of luck has clipped us with a sharp hoof." That's a woman's opinion, for what it's worth.

• 43:50Liv Albert?

  The men squabble just a little longer. They hurl more useless threats. They hold very little bite.

• 43:59Liv Albert?

  Clytemnestra has the last lines of the play, though. Quote, "Ignore their yelpings. You and I, as masters of this house, will dispose all things as they should be." Beautifully.

• 44:32Liv Albert?

  Okay, I just...

• 44:37Liv Albert?

  Okay, I love this play. I love this Clytemnestra in a way. I mean, spoilers, I've always loved Clytemnestra. We love a murderous woman. Um, but I love this one the most. She is delightful. And I'm going to be talking about her more, for sure. I want to, I really want to break apart all of the moments that she is referred to as a man, and also now when Agisus is referred to as a woman, because it's fucking fascinating. Like, the reason they're so hated by the chorus, I think, is like, almost less about the murder and more about the fact that they did like a gender swap of it, that like Clytemnestra did the big bad and Agisus was just like there for moral support. And like, these men absolutely cannot fathom that, and I find it so satisfying.

• 45:20Liv Albert?

  Um, there's so much more I could say. I, I did, I do feel like I left a little on the table when it comes to Clytemnestra and Cassandra. That was a little bit out of necessity and because I have a backup idea.

• 45:35Liv Albert?

  So, but I will first, I'm just going to share actually a couple of points about this series that came out of the Patreon, where we have the ad-free episodes running and where we have a really fun kind of conversation about a lot of these episodes, all through the Patreon comments, "Hey, if you want to become a patron, you can get ad-free for just $5 a month." And it, okay, this is me trying to pull this in unscripted, but so we have a lovely listener on Patreon who goes by Tim from England, who has made a couple of really, really points, good points, and I mean, they're a little bit like, make me look good too, so I'm going to share them with you, but also because I think it's really interesting

• 46:20Liv Albert?

  and I'm glad these things were flagged. So, um, this was on, I don't remember which episode, it might have been the second one, or perhaps the first, I can't remember what episode, and Tim points out that at 26 minutes and 55 seconds in, when I'm describing Clytemnestra imagining the sack of Troy, he quotes me where I said, "She even makes a plea for the Greeks not to ravish more than they really need to. Gods know they don't listen to that, though." I, he, okay, I'm not trying to, I'm trying not to like read this whole question, but I'm making it longer by doing that. Basically, the point Tim was making here is he says,

• 47:02Liv Albert?

  "I shall guess ravish is Liv's own creative reading of the word ravage in the original. I expect that the Greeks, away from their own women for 10 years at this point, and with the enemy at their mercy, do unfortunately ravish as well as ravage. I shall not explain the difference, but anyone unsure can look it up. The difference is, one's rape and one is property. They're both the same, which is what's horrifying, because the crime was not the defiling of a woman, the crime was damaging property."

• 47:32Liv Albert?

  And so, but what I, the reason why I want to read this is that actually, and while I would be very open to, to use the word ravish in place of ravage for exactly that reason, because contextually, like they're pretty interchangeable because women were seen as just the same as like a gold pot. Um, but actually, um, the word ravish is explicitly in Anne Carson's translation. And I went back and I wanted to look at how Sarah Ruden translated it too, because this is a really good point. And like, I could absolutely see myself making that swap. But no, this phrase that it, the ancient Greek phrase actually is tinged with sex in a way that is sort of,

• 48:14Liv Albert?

  you can't, you can't take that away. Like this is about ravishment. This is about spoils of war that are human women being abused. And I think that's really interesting. Like, like that is, I think, very, uh, again, my Greek is not particularly good, but I can read a lot of translations and I can pick at the actual words. And I am, I'm really getting the sense that there is a, there is an explicit sexuality in there. Like they are, when we're talking about the gods, you know, not ravaging or ravishing more than they need to at the end of this war, we are very explicitly talking about both the theft and like looting of property and, and like the city,

• 48:59Liv Albert?

  and also the theft and looting of women. Um, even in the Sarah Ruden translation, like she calls it like lusty ravaging or something like that. Like she definitely put the word lust in there. So we can tell like it is meant to be of sexual nature. Like Clytemnestra is really specifically calling out her husband and generally the Trojans for what she knows is happening there, that they are raping women and like taking them as war prizes. Like I think it's really clear that she knows and that is a criticism that she's making. And, um, that like, obviously, we, there's so much to be said for, you know, how she makes that criticism and then murders

• 49:43Liv Albert?

  Cassandra, when it's obviously not Cassandra's fault. I mean, I think that there's like so much complexity there. And I really, I mean, yeah, I, I think Cassandra is unfortunately.

• 49:55Liv Albert?

  Just caught in the crossfire of this. It's horrifying, but like I also generally can understand why in that moment Clyde Amnestra is not concerned with this woman, right? Like, I, I don't, I won't go into it in too much more detail and that is because Tim from England also pointed out that, that actually a year ago, he had asked a really great question in a Q and A about why Clyde Amnestra kills Cassandra. And I had actually forgotten that and didn't realize it was the same person who was commenting all this. So I'm so glad that, that Tim, you brought it up. Thank you. Because what I'm going to do is I did a Q and A episode and it looks like I answered that question over like

• 50:40Liv Albert?

  20 minutes because it was such a good question and I'm actually really, really happy with how I discussed it then. So I'm just going to replay that Q and A episode as a bonus tomorrow. So you can listen to that if you want, if you're curious about that because really obviously I could talk for another 25 minutes about like what is going on between Clyde Amnestra and Cassandra. And there's just, I have, there's so much feels, there's so much empathy, there's so much horror, there's so much violence. It's just, there's so much. And I, if I recall, that was a really great moment in that Q and A where I was able to really flesh through a lot based on that question. So I was thrilled to have it reminded and that episode is coming as well. I am sure this is not the last time

• 51:24Liv Albert?

  I'm going to be ranting all about Clyde Amnestra because I love this woman so much. And I mean, as I already told you, I will be doing an episode on her as a man. It's just fucking fascinating. And not to worry, we will return to the Orystia for the next play in the series. Not immediately because we've got some plans and schemes and Odyssey and things. Because hey, remember that I wrote a kid's book of the Odyssey and while it is a kid's book, it's also just like a really beautiful and faithful adaptation of the Odyssey that just happens to be illustrated and kid friendly. You should preorder that at the link in this episode's description, or just by Googling. I'm very Google-able, which is cool and weird.

• 52:08Liv Albert?

  Um, and yeah, so next week, though, Michaela is gonna be back with some fun history funness that she's been putting together for all of you, and we'll be back with so much more of all of things soon. Um, and thankfully, when Michaela's doing history episodes, you all can be rest assured, I'm working on a book proposal. Fingers crossed. Um, let's talk about this movie is written and produced by me, Liv Albert. Can you tell that I don't script at the end and thus ramble like crazy regardless? This was a great fucking episode. That script was so fun. I am obsessed with this woman. I am obsessed with reading these plays. Uh, plays, plays, plays. Um, we're not letting them go. Selection music is by Luke Chaos. The podcast is part of the Memory Collective Podcast Network. We are bringing you fun, new things and hope to have more soon when

• 52:53Liv Albert?

  any of us have the bandwidth to, uh, exist in late-stage capitalism while also being creatively motivated. It's super cool and normal. Everything is fine. Um, I, uh, oh, the podcast is written and produced by me, Liv Albert, and Michaela Pankush is the Hermes to my Olympians, my incredible producer, who will be bringing you so much fun stuff coming up soon. And of course, as always, we have conversations just coming out our ears, so. We'll be back, we'll be back. I am Liv, and oh my God, I love, I love Clyde Amnestra. I love Clyde Amnestra in a way that maybe should make some men scared, but thankfully I don't really interact with them much, so we're good. And if you're listening to this

• 53:38Liv Albert?

  and you're a man, please, please, like, honestly, if you're listening to me, you're probably a good one. You really are. I believe that. And if you got this far and just please take into account the ways in which you are benefiting from not just the patriarchy, but the increase and the horrors of the rape culture that is taking over, at the very least, the West and the English-speaking world. Um, and I would just like to remind men that not being one of the bad ones does not make you one of the good ones, and you should also be actively working to try to be one of the good ones. And listening to a woman rant this much about how shitty men are is a really great step.

• 54:23Liv Albert?

  Congratulations, you're cool. I am Liv and I love this shit.

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