Ep. 907: Yellowstone Wolf (Mis)Management, Betting on Wildfires, and Bears Ear

Steven Rinella https://www.instagram.com/stevenrinella/?hl=en and the MeatEater crew discuss: Monumental changes to Bears Ears, Wildfires on prediction markets, CO ain’t your trapping friend, Permanent Daylight Savings hunting, changes to the Endangered Species Act, and more! Connect with Steve https://www.themeateater.com/authors/steven-rinella and The MeatEater Podcast Network https://www.youtube.com/@MeatEaterPodcastNetwork Steve on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/stevenrinella and Twitter https://twitter.com/stevenrinella?lang=en MeatEater on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/meateater, Facebook https://www.facebook.com/StevenRinellaMeatEater/, Twitter https://twitter.com/MeatEaterTV?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor, and YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@MeatEaterPodcastNetwork See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 0:15Steven Rinella?

  It's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground.

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• 0:21Steven Rinella?

  All sins swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

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  Hey, I'm Niall Rogers. This fall, I'll be driving across the country, meeting some of today's coolest and most fascinating artists. We'll explore the stories before the moments that changed everything. Because every musician remembers the moment where it all began. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:41Steven Rinella?

  Welcome to the news show. Today, we've got Spencer, reporting on the most reported-on story in the world, the old-timer who got tossed by a buffalo in Yellowstone. We've got wolves in Yellowstone have left Yellowstone, and that's got Yellowstone wolf lovers panties in a bunch. The Trump administration has made changes to the Endangered Species Act, and if you're guessing that it wasn't to make it strong and more effective, you're on to something. Colorado's dumb fur ban has died, but they replaced it with something not quite as dumb. Is the perpetuation of daylight savings time good or bad for outdoorsmen? How can you make money betting on wildfires and more?

• 2:26Steven Rinella?

  But first, our news.

• 2:31Steven Rinella?

  I'll tell you about our news. That's good, Phil. Listen, you want to, you like, you want to talk about workplace drama. Workplace drop, this, this represents tremendous workplace drama. I'm not aware. Oh, the bear grease bib. Yeah, what's the drama? Clay fought for years for these bibs. I think since 2019. Relationships were ruined over these bibs. Because Clay stuck to his guns. He would, he would accept nothing less than perfection. If you're a bib man, let me stand up. You see me good, Phil? Look great. Here you go.

• 3:11Steven Rinella?

  See important parts? Yeah. I'm not trying to flash. You can see, the main, the main part of a bib is the top is attached to the bottom. Here, put that camera on. You can see the most important part. Put the camera on, so I can see what's going on. There you go. The bear grease bib, look.

• 3:24Steven Rinella?

  Zippers, like, it's all in reverse, I'm looking at a camera. Zipper, side pockets. Okay, you can run them like, you can run them southern style. We just run around like that. Zip them up. Flexible, they got chaps running from ankle up. It's the ultimate bib. It's the greatest product we've ever made. And, and like I said, a lot of fighting. Lot of fighting. I had some household drama over these. How so? I brought them home, and I have a pair of 3XL Carhartt overalls that I do all my car work in. I brought these suckers home to do that in. And my wife said, those are too nice to do car work in. But now I did car work in them. Well, she wants, she wants those to be your dress bibs?

• 4:08Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, I asked her, like, can I wear these to church? She didn't answer. I think the. If you had those on at church, I would say, I'd like this man to step up to the pulpit. I think he's got something that he should share with the congregation. Also, you're not a 3XL. What are you doing with 3XL bibs at home? Oh, I got this from the thrift store. They're just like a big pair of bibs you do your work in. These are, I think they run a little bit big, because these were your original ones. I'm running around in a medium, which is right, right, right where I should be for a pair of bibs. Okay, this is a large. I'm 6'4". You're a big guy. 220. Oh, I see. Clay is telling, Clay is telling people on Instagram, they run a little big. So if you're getting your pair, keep Clay's words. It depends if you like to put them on over a bunch of stuff. This is the best, listen, this is the ultimate deal.

• 4:52Steven Rinella?

  This is what I live in from now on. I will say, I, I throw these on, like, in the morning, I climb a tree and shoot from my saddle before work, and I just throw these on over my work clothes. Climb the tree, good to go. Because you don't want to get your t-shirt dirty. Well, I wore a t-shirt today, but usually I have nice pants on. Yeah. Dude, people know about my dress-up game. These are some rock, these are rock-solid bibs. I like them.

• 5:13Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. I gotta get me some. Oh, dude, like, just like durable. Lot of fighting.

• 5:20Steven Rinella?

  They're available now. That's what we want to emphasize most, above all else, there's a lot of fighting. There was a lot of fighting. Between who? It got, like, it got emotional. These were built with anger. It got emotional. I'm picturing an Instagram ad, just like Clay fought for these bibs. It got emotional, lot of fighting. And here, after, after five years of fighting. I think it's seven. I thought Clay said 2019. Seven years of fighting, Clay being like, not like that. Like this. Yep. For the, for the ignoramus back here, what's the difference between a bib and an overall?

• 5:57Steven Rinella?

  I think it's. I use them interchangeably. I think it's interchangeable. I didn't know if there was a practical difference. If I had to say a difference, I feel like an overall maybe like goes all the way to sleeves. No, that's a coverall. Coverall. That's a great product, too. My wife's got a lot of cute little overalls these days. Yeah, that's the thing. My wife's got a pair of. I'm into that, though. Overalls, overalls are cute. Bibs are. Oh, yeah, she's got some real cute little overalls. Bibs are working. She's not running around knees. If she was, she'd probably cut, she'd do something to it. She'd mod them. She's not going to start working on the truck. No, she just runs around being cute in her little overalls now and then. It's only a differentiation between coveralls and bib overalls. Yeah.

• 6:37Steven Rinella?

  You can get them now, and you gotta go get them, because here's the deal. All that fighting, if, if they bomb. Clay's getting fired. There's more fighting. So if you want to bring peace to the workplace, blow these bibs out of the water, get them, love them, Clay wins. I win, everybody's happy. Lot of fighting.

• 7:03Steven Rinella?

  Nate's got a hot tip for you. Or a cold tip, because I had norovirus this weekend and spent

• 7:10Steven Rinella?

  a lot of time in the shower. Oh, dude, it was miserable. Not as miserable as when I got it after the Mile High Hunting Show and spent an hour and a half plane flight in the bathroom. But this weekend. You're a two-time norovirus hamster. I think I've had it three times. You gotta eat more bad stuff. I've had norovirus. Hold up. Just strengthen the system. Yeah, that's probably a good point. You weren't frequenting Taco Bell, were you? No, not, surprising virus. I know, but. It could have been. No, our whole social group got it, so it pretty sure is norovirus. Anyways, I'm a little skeptical of Western medicine, or Western medicine curious, and I don't believe in the overutilization of the medical system. And so instead of going to the doctor when I have stuff like this, I just do, every hour and a half, I get in the shower and sit there for half an hour,

• 7:54Steven Rinella?

  kind of soak it out, hydrotherapy. But eventually, after the seventh or eighth shower rotation, the shower gets pretty uncomfortable. So I thought to myself, what could I put in here to make the shower more comfortable? And lo and behold, I had a sleeping pad. So I blew that sucker up, threw it in there, and it made my eighth, ninth, and 10th shower of the evening far more enjoyable. Do you imagine that you're sort of washing away the sickness? I don't know if it's this, I'm washing it away, or I'm steaming it out. What I'm, what I'm concerned about.

• 8:28Steven Rinella?

  I, whenever I think of air mattress, is I think of all the crevices, you know? Like, there's crevices in there. To me, that would be ripe for, say, if some Duke got in there. There's a good chance. He's not in there shat himself in there. You'd be surprised.

• 8:46Steven Rinella?

  So if you find yourself on your seventh or eighth shower rotation of the evening, blow up your sleeping pad and sit on that sucker. Get a shower stool, available at a common drugstore. I like that idea, though. It's a great, dude. Because sitting, you're gonna hate it. So I don't take baths, but if I did, I'd say, this is not comfortable. No.

• 9:05Steven Rinella?

  The CDC says norovirus is very. Pretty contagious. What are you doing here Nate? I stayed home yesterday. I was clear on Sunday and I stayed home yesterday, so I didn't get you guys sick. Okay. But also just love the game. I got, I got another news. Here's the deal. Um, there's a place called Matt's Real Repair. M A T S. Not two Ts. Matt's Real Repair. I've been using them for years. Those guys, if you got a fishing reel

• 9:33Steven Rinella?

  that needs work, those guys are the best guys on the planet in their business. Nicest dudes in the world. Did you send a saltus there or something? I send my, I send, every year I send reels in the Matt's Real Repair. If you get, if a reel gets to where, they'll, they'll call you. Be like, you're throwing good money after bad.

• 9:53Steven Rinella?

  It's done. You gotta give it up. I, every couple of years I take my reels and I send them in for like, I write, you put a little form. I put down, clean, lubricate, fix what's broke. It's like taking your car in for a tune-up or whatever, oil. But I've been running some dial assaultist reels. I love those. For, for way over a decade. In the salt? In the salt. Just the nicest guys, man. Just like, you know, you call over there like, hello. That's what I like. It's not like press one for, two for. Um, okay, we're gonna, we gotta, we gotta do some corrections, but the, the audience has a love hate relationship with corrections.

• 10:35Steven Rinella?

  Some people love them, some people hate them. We're gonna try to shorten it up. So we brought in a, a thing to time it.

• 10:42Steven Rinella?

  What, what's the winner get? Nothing right now. We're just, we're just rounding up corrections. Oh. Yeah. No, you're not gonna win nothing right now.

• 10:52Steven Rinella?

  A long time ago, a guy made us this interestometer. Can you put this, can you put, can you put my shot on the screen? Yeah, get the diarrhea sleeping pad off the.

• 11:02Steven Rinella?

  A guy made us this interestometer. Yeah, there you go. I'm gonna walk through some corrections very quickly.

• 11:09Steven Rinella?

  Okay. This was listener Ryan Thomas. Who created the meter? Who created the meter? Oh, thank you, Ryan. Got three red dots, a yellow and three greens. So seven levels of interest. And the way this machine functions is we all have a, a terminal with a dial and it averages, those lights average our interest in said topic. And so Steve will spend about a minute covering a correction and we'll all weigh in with our dial on how interested we are. And the top one wins.

• 11:40Steven Rinella?

  Guy named Troyer writes in.

• 11:43Steven Rinella?

  A couple of weeks back, you guys mentioned new shirts with T R on them. Love the idea, but you guys called him Teddy. And that would have made the man bristle. He did not appreciate the nickname. While there are reports that in political sphere, he did not mind if a stranger called him that. As supporters of the man, I personally use T R or Theodore proper. As it has been said that he never permitted himself to be called Teddy.

• 12:18Steven Rinella?

  All right, they're turning their dials. I'm moderately interested in that. I'm not turning my dial. Oh, okay. We didn't make it out of the red. We got a three. Who's this guy? The, the venison, the guy? This is some dude from the UK. What's his name? I can't remember his name.

• 12:34Steven Rinella?

  Let me start by expressing my, this is about Yanni's report on Wimbledon, the tennis contest, serving venison to lower their carbon footprint. Dropping beef, picking up venison. Which we covered. Feller says, let me start by expressing my genuine admiration for the Meat Eater brand, your team, and everything you do for hunting and conservation internationally. The reason I felt it was worth writing in that Meat Eater has earned enormous credibility with hunters around the world. When you speak about a country or a hunting culture, people listen. That is why I felt compelled to reach out after listening to your recent discussion regarding Wimbledon, venison, and the UK landscape.

• 13:18Steven Rinella?

  The venison served at Wimbledon is sourced from the royal parks. This is managed park venison, not wild shot deer. While quotes in the article note that eating venison helps control deer populations, causing ecological destruction, eating park venison does absolutely nothing to reduce Britain's booming wild deer population. Trained hunters in the UK are legally permitted to sell wild venison directly into the food chain. Yet only one major supermarket chain regularly stocks genuine wild British venison.

• 14:00Steven Rinella?

  Most stock imported or farmed venison because of public perception.

• 14:07Steven Rinella?

  The market finds park or farmed labels more palatable than wild, despite wild being the more ethical, sustainable choice.

• 14:19Steven Rinella?

  He notes. One minute average. He notes too, that they're now, they're now serving wild venison in National Health Service hospitals. I know, but here's the deal. I was gonna say that too, but I ran out of time. Oh, I thought that was. So for you to add it in. Well, I thought we could have gotten, I thought, I thought we could have gotten rid of. Interestingly, we're beginning to see genuine progress. You left. Wild British venison is now even being served in several NHS hospitals as part of an initiative to promote sustainable locally sourced food. You don't say. It's a good detail. It's exactly the kind of. So now my interest has fallen because it went on too long. But I know. If, if it were me, I would have cut out all this stuff about how. It's not you.

• 15:04Steven Rinella?

  His genuine admiration for the brand. But I liked that part, so it's our enormous credibility. That was my favorite part. All right, we, we were at a five out of seven, then Brody brought it down to a four, but he's still, he's still in the, in the lead here. He achieved yellow. We, we covered a piece where in Alabama, H O A in Alabama brought in the feds to kill a bunch of geese that were bugging them. And we're like, what I was saying, I was saying, just don't start the timer yet.

• 15:31Steven Rinella?

  This is background. I was saying, it seems a little severe to call in the feds to kill some geese. There's gotta be another way. That's just my comment as a guy that doesn't know anything about this H O A. Guy writes in, he wants to remain anonymous. I am a wildlife biologist with USDA's Wildlife Services. I would like to add some insight on the H O A geese issue.

• 15:56Steven Rinella?

  First, some information was left out of the podcast segment, including previously used non-lethal harassment and the severity of their situation. According to Heritage Plantation, they have invested over $25,000 using coyote decoys, lasers, shoreline fencing, and the introduction of swans. For over 10 years, they have been conducting egg oiling. This blocks the egg pores, preventing oxygen and stalling embryo growth. In addition, they were also denied by the city of Madison to use trained dogs. So they tried a lot.

• 16:39Steven Rinella?

  Over the past year, 16 geese and 75% of the swans have died from illness and 100% of the carcasses tested positive for avian influenza. Woo. One important thing to note here is that they most likely they were dealing with a resident population. This means they remain there year round. These situations are very common in urban and suburban areas. In fact, in places that I have worked on goose issues are conveniently also where the D N R chooses to ban the geese. Every single banded goose I have lethally removed were banded in the exact place I shot them. With examples of some birds being banded almost 10 years ago in the same spot.

• 17:24Steven Rinella?

  This is all to say, it is extremely hard to harass resident geese and it seems to me that they have exhausted almost every other method besides installing a wire grid across the pond.

• 17:38Steven Rinella?

  Here's what gets interesting. As to the method of lethal removal, roundups are just the most efficient way. They're conducted during the summer molt.

• 17:48Steven Rinella?

  For euthanasia, most programs utilize CO2 gas chambers. Takes about 10 to 20 seconds to kill a goose. I saw a comment saying that geese can hold their breath for 45 seconds.

• 18:03Steven Rinella?

  But that doesn't matter because CO2 is odorless and they don't know to hold their breath.

• 18:10Steven Rinella?

  I got a bad feeling, guys.

• 18:13Steven Rinella?

  One, two, three.

• 18:16Steven Rinella?

  We're a six out of seven there for the interest. That's a hell of a. Deep in the green. Yep, that's good. I just jammed it up. I forgot my. Minnesota Wolves, Pat Durkin. Nate reviewed compensation programs for wolf killed livestock.

• 18:29Steven Rinella?

  My hearing aid equipped ears perked up when Nate said wolf advocates were the original source of Wisconsin's wolf compensation funding. Here's where it gets tricky. When wolves are being managed by the state D N R. Department of Natural Resources. Through hunting and trapping. State law requires wolf depredation payments come from wolf hunting trapping licenses. And license application fees. However. When wolves are being protected under the federal endangered species act.

• 19:03Steven Rinella?

  The money for wolf depredation payments comes from Wisconsin's Bureau of Natural. Heritage and Conservation.

• 19:12Steven Rinella?

  So if you're allowed to hunt and trap them, hunters pay depredation. If you're not, it comes out of a totally different fund. Man, that's a nice tight correction there. Pat closes with this thought. Pat has often said deer make people stupid. Yep. He elaborated on that, elaborated on that. Deer make people stupid. Wolves make people mad. Turkeys make people happy. Turkeys make me more mad. Amen to that. Crank that sucker up. Lastly. This is the final, final mention on whether it is okay. To refer to weed smokers as dope smokers. Pat achieved yellow there. So currently in second place.

• 19:52Speaker 05

  No, well, yeah.

• 19:53Steven Rinella?

  At the end, you got, okay. Last one. Light green. Last one, the most important one. I'm writing in to defend Steve and correct the angry dope smokers. About the use of the term dope smoker. First, I want to establish my bona fides. Listen carefully.

• 20:11Steven Rinella?

  This is the most. This is the most credentialed dope smoker in the world. I want to establish my bona fides. I lived my entire life in the foothills of Northern California and was a self proclaimed stoner through most of my twenties and thirties. I spent many crop tobers. As a trimmer. Getting paid in wait for my services. In addition, after recreational cannabis use was legalized in California. I was the director of product development for two of the largest and most well known cannabis brands in the state. My job there was to select the best weed, build supply chains for manufactured products like oils, vapes and edibles. And then bringing those products to market.

• 20:56Steven Rinella?

  That's a bona fide. I bet you that guy had a subscription to High Times. Now on to the topic at hand. Is the term dope smoker acceptable? The answer is yes. Perhaps the best supporting evidence for this comes from the band Sleep. Who are the undisputed creators of stoner rock genre.

• 21:18Steven Rinella?

  In nineteen ninety eight, Sleep released the album Dope Smoker, which I listened to.

• 21:25Steven Rinella?

  Phil, can you queue up just a quick intro to Dope Smoker? You're supposed to have it ready. Was I? Did I get it? I'll pull it up right here. Let me know you're ready. Yeah, okay. Give me a sec. In nineteen ninety eight, Sleep released the album Dope Smoker. Which contains only one song. Title Dope Smoker. It'd be an E P. The song is a sixty three minute epic tale about a pilgrimage made by weed priests. Known as weedians. Across the mystical desert, the purpose of their pilgrimage to cast. Seed of Eden. Onto the nurtured desert soil of Zion, creating a permanent. Spiritually elevated sanctuary dedicated to continuous cultivation and smoking.

• 22:10Steven Rinella?

  He's losing me. This is great. Now. Now, here it is. The band spent four years writing and recording the song.

• 22:20Steven Rinella?

  Here's how it starts. I was hooked.

• 22:25Steven Rinella?

  That's good, Phil. Okay, great.

• 22:28Steven Rinella?

  They spent four years writing, recording the song, album. Both the title and content of Dope Smoker were so important to Sleep that when their label London Records threatened to drop them over it in nineteen ninety six. The band went to court, lost, then leaked the album themselves two years later. That's great. He goes on to say, I dare any offended dope smoker out there writing into the Meat Eater Podcast to tell the members of Sleep. That the word which caused them to fight a years long weed legal battle with London Records effectively bankrupting them. And then causing them to break up for fifteen years is somehow a pejorative. Keep up the good work.

• 23:11Steven Rinella?

  And to all the dope smoking hunters and anglers out there, stay high.

• 23:17Steven Rinella?

  I was right.

• 23:20Steven Rinella?

  He achieved a five and a half on our scale. It's flickering on six. So who won? The. The geese man.

• 23:29Speaker 05

  I think that is a six though, isn't it? Is it just a bad?

• 23:32Steven Rinella?

  No, it's like flickering, you know, for someone who just gave him a little more. Engineer's got, he's got, we got a couple mods. Yep. Yeah. Before we go back to prize giving, we got a couple mods. Mm hmm.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  Nine one one, what's your emergency?

• 23:48Speaker 01

  Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder hornets.

• 23:52Steven Rinella?

  Nine one one Nashville returns. It's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground. With emergencies of biblical proportions. All since swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues for Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville. Brian Philippi joins nine one one Nashville. All new Thursdays on A B C, next day on Hulu.

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• 25:13Steven Rinella?

  Buffalo flips old man. On to.

• 25:17Steven Rinella?

  The news.

• 25:23Steven Rinella?

  All right, a viral video from July tenth showed an old man getting thrown, uh, what's been said eight feet in the air. I don't know where. Wearing bib overalls, I believe. Yeah, he was. Yes. He looked like a dope smoking man who could use some bear grease, uh, bibs, I would say. Uh, throwing. He would have been unscathed in these various bibs. Yes, yep. Thrown eight feet in the air by a bison Yellowstone. It was sixty five year old Carl McDaniel. He's from a small town north of Seattle. He was in the park with his grandson and the two were on a walk at a campground near Yellowstone Lake when they spotted a rutting bison who was putting on a show. Uh, the bison rut goes from June to September. So they're kind of peak that time period.

• 26:03Steven Rinella?

  Carl and his grandson lingered for a second to take some pictures and then the attack happened. Play the video, Phil.

• 26:15Steven Rinella?

  For audio listeners, there's two individuals. Yeah, the old timer's running one of those beards that goes down. Oh, is that a beard? It is a beard. Oh, and he's running one of those beards that goes down to your nipples. And he's got suspenders and jeans, not bibs. Not bibs, yeah. And a grandson who's wearing a Miami Dolphins, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Ryan Fitzpatrick jersey. Bison is wallowing. He's now on his feet. This white pickup, it was later said it was trying to haze the bison, didn't work. Uh, the pickup honked their horn at it. Very poor hazing operation. They said that the, the pickup honked at the bison and maybe that's like what got the bison on its feet actually. So it was doing the opposite of what it intended. Uh, the, the bison and the man are playing Ringo on the Rosie. With some trees.

• 27:01Steven Rinella?

  And then this is where, uh, the attack happens.

• 27:07Steven Rinella?

  Oh. Oh, God. Quite a video. Man. Captured by a photographer who was at the campground at that point. Can you imagine if he didn't? If there like wasn't a dude with a really high powered camera.

• 27:19Speaker 05

  Is that where it at? Like, did the bison just walk off after that?

• 27:22Steven Rinella?

  Uh, immediately after the attack, some good Samaritans, including the cameraman who stopped filming, uh, they hazed the bison until it moved away from Carl. Uh, and because they were in a popular area, emergency vehicles got there within ten minutes. Uh, the man is hurt, but okay, his femur was broken in four places. Near his hip. Uh, the accident happened on a Friday. He had surgery on Sunday, right here in Bozeman. And he was standing again on Monday. Carl said it wasn't the bison that hurt him. It was the ground. Sure. Uh, so it wasn't the impact from the bison. It was coming down. That, uh, caused that broken femur. Now, the National Park Service says you need to stay twenty five yards away from bison. This is on their website. It's in all their reading materials. They also say.

• 28:06Steven Rinella?

  One hundred yards away from bears, wolves and mountain lions. Uh, Carl estimated that he and his grandson were one hundred yards away from that bison. So they were bare distance, uh, four X what the National Park Service says. Uh, normally when these things happen, the reaction from the general public is like, wow, what an idiot. You know, he sure deserved that. Go team bison, you know, get those moron tourists. Uh, that hasn't been the case here. And when I watched that video, I don't have that reaction either. Um, like the dude seemed like he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and, and he didn't linger too long. And, and the way that video begins, you're watching the kind of encounter that happens in Yellowstone, thousands of times a year, where someone's just like watching a bison from what would be

• 28:51Steven Rinella?

  considered a safe distance. Uh, and, and usually it doesn't happen like this where the bison actually attacks him. Do you guys feel the same way? Or did you see something different? No, I, but I never, like, I never think that the person was dumb for even creeping up on stuff. Petting them?

• 29:09Steven Rinella?

  Listen.

• 29:12Steven Rinella?

  I'm like a guy, you know, I like to get in there. Like I've never think a guy's dumb. What you're telling, you never try to sneak closer to something.

• 29:22Speaker 05

  Yeah, I, of course I have, but I'm not going to try and pet. But I think what Spencer's getting at is true. Like this guy.

• 29:29Steven Rinella?

  No, he, he didn't have. I'm not mad at him and I never do that. I never do that. I never do that thing like, oh, what a dummy. But that's like eighty percent of the online reaction normally. When, when this happened, normally people are like, boy, dude had it coming. Yeah, I feel like the reaction to this one is very different than what you usually see.

• 29:46Speaker 05

  Like that, that thing was gonna get him no matter what. It went through those trees.

• 29:50Steven Rinella?

  Flush them out.

• 29:51Speaker 05

  Yeah. And that old guy's pretty spry.

• 29:53Steven Rinella?

  He was too. There were multiple moments where I'd have been like, oh, I'm safe now. Like the, the thing is over. And then the bison like keeps going after him. That dude was hitting that Nazi zombie moves. I don't know what that means.

• 30:07Steven Rinella?

  What's that? It's a Call of Duty. No. Are you gonna add anything to this that? Yeah, I got, I got more. I got more. Randall had a take. Oh, I was just gonna say, like, he starts out what looks to be a very safe conservative distance from the bison. That truck goes through, blows its horn. They start moving off as soon as the bison starts moving towards them. Like, I don't know that there's anything in there that I'd second guess. And then the other thing too is like, you never really see the grandson get away. Yeah. But you sort of get the sense, like he, when the grandfather comes around the trees, he kind of stays there and does the cat and mouse thing with it. And I kind of wonder if he's like trying to distract the bison. The grandfather said that was the case. He told his son to run to the, or grandson to run to the amphitheater.

• 30:51Steven Rinella?

  Um, and that he was going to try to distract him.

• 30:54Speaker 05

  So he just ran. We couldn't see him run.

• 30:56Steven Rinella?

  The distraction worked a little too well, though, as we saw in the video. No, of course Carl survived. I'm not getting hundred yard vibes off that. I didn't think so either, but that was what the quote said as far as distance. Now, the guy, the, the, the hazer. Yeah. I think the hazer got it with the hate. What's funny about this, the dude who's supposed to haze it from a truck, even though he's in a truck, he gets scared. Yeah, he got out of there. He runs away in his truck. Yeah, like right here, right here, you can see he's like trying, you know, he's trying to distract the bison, I think. Oh, look at that. That, that's a bad, that's a badass. Again, multiple times I'd be like, oh, it's, I'm safe. You know, I've, I've evaded the bison. Yeah.

• 31:34Speaker 05

  I want to draw that bison. I want to draw that bison tag and get that one.

• 31:38Steven Rinella?

  All right, give me something I don't know. Give me something I don't know. Okay, of course Carl survived, but I went to one of my favorite books, Death in Yellowstone, to try to put the attack in perspective. There have been two bison related deaths in Yellowstone. Uh, the first was from July 12th, 1971, almost fifty five years ago to the day when Carl was attacked. Uh, that's when Marvin Schrader, a thirty year old from Spokane, Washington, was at the fountain paint pots with his wife and three kids. Marvin wanted to get a picture of a solitary bison that was loafed in a meadow. Marvin got to within twenty feet of the bison. When it got up and charged him, uh, the bison's horn pierced the man's liver just before it launched

• 32:18Steven Rinella?

  him twelve feet in the air. Marvin's family watched him groaning on the ground for a few minutes until he died. You're doing fatalities. Fatalities, two ever. Not, not. I would have guessed much higher. I would have guessed it was much higher. Fatalities? So that was nineteen seventy one. The second fatal bison attack happened twelve years later in Hayden Valley. Uh, again, it involved a solitary bison during the rut. It was July thirty first, nineteen eighty three. Twenty one year old French visitor, Alain Dumont, uh, wanted his picture taken with a bison. He got to six feet away when the bison turned and gored him, throwing him ten feet in the air.

• 33:00Steven Rinella?

  Uh, Dumont's injuries included a punctured kidney, punctured stomach, torn colon, damaged spleen and four broken ribs. Dumont survived long enough to see a doctor, but later died from an infection because of the ruptured spleen. So those are the two fatal. Spleen is, mine hurts now. Uh, now, all three of those events share some similarities. It was a singular bull bison during the rut, which again is happening right now, uh, specifically in July. Each victim was either taking a picture or getting their picture taken with the bison, including modern day Carl. Uh, and, and my last thought is, this book made me aware of something that I hadn't really considered

• 33:41Steven Rinella?

  before. And it's that humans have always been stupid. I, I think there's maybe like this shared thought among people today that we're like more disconnected from nature and our cell phones are making us dumber and common sense isn't common anymore. Uh, and I, I think people maybe carry some even guilt about just like how dumb the modern man is. This book will make you realize that people have been doing dumb things and dying in spectacular ways. But they're not doing dumb things. Fifty years. Who's not? All kinds of hot buffalo hide hunters got killed. It's like the world's like a slightly dangerous place. I'm telling you, this book, if you read, if you look at this book and look at all the deaths that have happened in Yellowstone over the last one hundred fifty years, your takeaway will be like, oh,

• 34:26Steven Rinella?

  man, people have always been stupid. People are always trying to like, take a cool picture or impress a girl or win a, win a bet. Um, or, you know, like, ignore bad weather, ignore an animal's behavior. That's been happening for the last one hundred fifty years, for as long as people have been recording this stuff. And I feel like we, we just kind of assign that to folks in twenty twenty six. Like, look at how stupid we are collectively. This book will tell you otherwise. We have always been stupid. Um, and, and it's like, you know, maybe our species has a chance. Here, here's the best evidence of, of this whole thing. In the nineteen eighties, Yellowstone averaged six bison related injuries per year. In nineteen eighty three alone, there were eleven injuries. Today, it's less than

• 35:11Steven Rinella?

  two a year, despite there being literally twice as many bison in the park and twice as many visitors. So we've, we've cut down, we've cut down injuries. Because they've, they, they, they control, they control people's freedoms. I don't think so. I think they're just better at telling people. Land of rules. They're just better at telling people like, hey, don't get to six feet from a bison. Because they restrict people's freedoms. Yeah. Americans are a trigger happy lot. We like to get in there. We want to mix things up. Mm hmm. And they, they make it like you can't mix anything up in there. Yeah. They should, uh, engrave that on the.

• 35:46Speaker 05

  I knew Spencer was headed for.

• 35:48Steven Rinella?

  The land of rules.

• 35:49Speaker 05

  I knew Spencer was headed for troubled waters on this one when I found out that The View also covered this story.

• 35:57Steven Rinella?

  My wife pointed out this story to me and we don't like, we don't traffic in the same news source. They didn't talk about the two bison fatalities though and ruptured spleens. You brought it. No, that's good. I like the spleen. And, and again, humans have always been dumb. Humans have always been doing stupid things in dangerous places. I'm just very slow to condemn someone for having a mix up with wild animals. The, the, like, specifically, the thing when it comes to taking the best picture, like taking a selfie, that has been going on for as long as cameras have existed. There are so many deaths in this book because someone was trying to get the right picture. I feel like your book might have the opposite of survivorship bias. But you're only gonna highlight the things that went crazy bad. Yeah, but that's why it's fascinating. That's why.

• 36:39Steven Rinella?

  Oh, yeah. If you made a whole book, a whole book called, uh, Normal Everyday Things Going Normally. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. It's also, it's also a little sad because every character that gets introduced in this book, you're like, well, I know how this ends. They're gonna die. I got a book about hunters dying. Mm hmm. Called dying to hunt in Montana. Hmm. It's, you can't, it's, it's too painful. The gunshot section. Hmm. Oh. It's, it's just like the writer's too good. Mm hmm. Spars. You cannot read it. You cannot read it. Yeah. The amount of people jumping, crawling under fences, going over fences. And I don't read it being like dummy, dummy. I read it like, dude, world's slightly dangerous place. Mm hmm. But you still gotta get out there and mix it up.

• 37:24Steven Rinella?

  Hmm.

• 37:26Steven Rinella?

  So you, Randall, you're gonna do the, the changes to the ESA, but should I start with the world's most misleading headline? Or do you want to end with that? Let's start with it. Okay. Phil, I said this, did you see that email? Uh, yeah. I've been, yeah. Uh, this is big news. We're a little, uh, just because of our recording schedule, we're a little late to the game and talking about this, but it's not going anywhere, anywhere. Randall's gonna lay out some changes the Trump administration made to the Endangered Species Act, but in amongst all the reporting, uh, the, the, those great wildlife reporters at the Washington Post run an article about these changes and you see a couple manatees floating there. Yeah, there's two manatees hanging out.

• 38:07Steven Rinella?

  And it says, Trump administration allows killing of species threatened with extinction, which one might reasonably assume.

• 38:19Steven Rinella?

  Good Lord, they're hunting manatees. Yeah, we were sharpening our.

• 38:22Speaker 05

  Harpoons.

• 38:25Steven Rinella?

  I was already on the road.

• 38:26Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 38:26Steven Rinella?

  Headed to Florida.

• 38:29Steven Rinella?

  When I realized that this was a very misleading photo, but in all seriousness, like I said up top, if you're guessing that uh, they, they want to make the endangered species act not as effective, you're correct.

• 38:44Speaker 05

  Yeah, and this is one of those cases where there's a headline and you think, God, this is, this seems ridiculous. Um, surely it's not a big deal. The headline is both wrong, but this is also a big deal.

• 38:58Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, they just wanted to find a way to take something that was very wonky.

• 39:02Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 39:03Steven Rinella?

  And hard to understand and make people click on it by making the impression that it's now okay that Trump is saying you can hunt manatees.

• 39:10Speaker 05

  Right. And it worked because that screenshot, the hyperlink was purple. So somebody clicked on that and read it. I don't know who that came. That came from me.

• 39:17Steven Rinella?

  Well, I clicked right away.

• 39:18Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 39:19Steven Rinella?

  I clicked knowing it was dumb.

• 39:21Speaker 05

  Mm hmm.

• 39:21Steven Rinella?

  But I still clicked.

• 39:22Speaker 05

  Yeah, I was, I clicked on it just to make sure I got my, my tag application in on time. Um, so the, the force, or I'm sorry, the Fish and Wildlife Service and NOAA, so the Department of Interior and the Department of Commerce issued a rule on July 14th, and the rule is called rescinding the definition of harm under the Endangered Species Act. Um, the Endangered Species Act at the most fundamental level makes it illegal for anyone to take, and these are, when I, when I say the word with that emphasis, that's from the law, to take endangered species without authorization from the government. And in, in section 319, the term take

• 40:03Speaker 05

  means to harass, harm, pursue, hunt, shoot, wound, kill, trap, capture, or collect, or attempt to engage in any such conduct. So the word take is defined by 10 different terms. Um, and so this, a- as I said before, in the rule, they're rescinding how the word harm under that umbrella of take has been commonly understood for the past several decades.

• 40:33Speaker 05

  So harm, until this rule change, the operational definition of harm included in destroying an animal's habitat, if destroying that habitat or altering it impairs essential behaviors, such as breeding. Um, a- and one example that I found in my research from, I believe, is an article on Vox, can't remember, recall exactly where, but building a hotel on top of a beach where sea turtles nest. Right? Like, because that is going to impair the ability of the species to, to recover, that is considered take under the Endangered Species Act.

• 41:14Speaker 05

  In this, uh, in this rule change, the administration does not offer a new definition, but it refers to a dissent um, made by Justice, former Justice Scalia, the late Justice Scalia, in a case known as Babbitt v. Sweet Home, that also had to do with the Endangered Species Act and habitat. And in his dissent, Scalia said that

• 41:41Speaker 05

  essentially, everybody knows what take means. It means when you deliberately go out and kill an animal. And so there's no way that you could understand take to include destroying that animal's habitat. By dissent, you mean he was on the losing end of a decision? That's exactly right. So, so in that case, Scalia was not, the court actually ruled that conserving habitat, or I should say destroying habitat falls under the definition of takes. Scalia disagreed with the majority. But the administration is going back and using his words to argue that, in fact, destroying habitat in a way that will harm the species does not constitute take.

• 42:21Speaker 05

  Now, the way that this works essentially is the, there's, there was a change two years ago in the way that administrative rulemaking works. Like when Congress passes a law saying you can't take an endangered species and then gives you 10 words. Traditionally, historically, the agency themselves has been able to define what harm means, right? And as long as the court found that their definition was reasonable, then the agency could use that, that definition.

• 42:59Speaker 05

  Two years ago, the court repealed, that was called the Chevron doctrine, where it was up to the agencies to find a reasonable understanding of the law. After the Chevron doctrine was overturned by the court, now the court has sort of claimed the power to interpret the best meaning of these laws. So essentially, what's going to happen in September is that harm, the word harm will no longer explicitly include actions that will destroy habitat.

• 43:32Speaker 05

  You could build a hotel, in that example, you could build that hotel on the beach where the sea turtles nest. And as long as you're not intentionally killing individual sea turtles or their eggs, you're fine. You're not going to shut down a logging operation because there's spotted owls around. That's exactly right. Yeah, so, so.

• 43:54Steven Rinella?

  You'd have to drop a tree on a spotted owl.

• 43:57Speaker 05

  Yeah, the, the, the part that's, the part, and again, the administration is quoting Scalia's understanding of the word harm. And what Scalia says is that it has to be an affirmative act directed immediately and intentionally against a particular animal. It's not an act or omission that indirectly or accidentally causes injuries to a population of animals. So this sort of fundamentally undermines the purpose of the Endangered Species Act. And what's interesting too is that it's, it's clear that Congress intended the Endangered Species Act to cover those habitats. In the Endangered Species Act itself,

• 44:43Speaker 05

  it, it, it talks about conserving the habitats that species need to survive. It says the purpose, this is from the law itself. The purposes of this act are to provide a means whereby the ecosystems upon which endangered species and threatened species depend may be conserved. So, in short, the administration is saying that harm doesn't encompass those habitats, even though Congress specifically calls out habitats. Um,

• 45:16Speaker 05

  and then the law also has provisions to permit incidental take. Like if you're going to do a project that would harm habitat that's needed by an endangered species, you can work with the government to, to offset whatever incidental take you might have. Um, but because harm is no longer going to encompass that, it's unclear what will happen with those types of projects. Like if, if incidental take or, or habitat destruction is not considered harm, it's, it's very unclear, like, how that will move forward. And this is probably going to, long story short, this is probably going to end up in the Supreme Court.

• 45:57Speaker 05

  They're basically, the administration has basically said

• 46:02Speaker 05

  harm under the Endangered Species Act no longer, no longer encompasses destruction of these habitats. And so, like, it, it really removes a big chunk of what the act is supposed to do. So if, if it's going to end up in the Supreme Court, in the meantime, do they get to operate under this new definition of harm? Or? Well, there's, there's lawsuits that have already been filed, I believe, but I don't know whether the court will issue an injunction to stop the administration from, from putting this rule into effect. But as of right now, in September. Yeah.

• 46:41Speaker 05

  This rule takes effect whereby habitat destruction is no longer covered under the definition of harm, which is hard to wrap your mind around, but that's sort of where we are.

• 46:53Steven Rinella?

  Man, these guys got a case in the ass against, uh,

• 46:57Speaker 05

  yeah.

• 46:58Steven Rinella?

  Wildlife.

• 46:59Speaker 05

  Yeah, and it's, you know, it's one of those things, like, I, I feel like every.

• 47:04Steven Rinella?

  Every person in our community that cares about wildlife and cares about habitat and wild places, like, we can all acknowledge that the Endangered Species Act has been weaponized in some instances, like, there's ways to improve it, right? But to do away with this chunk of it, which seems awful important if you want these species to survive, like, it's kind of taking an axe to the whole thing when I think most-

• 47:31Speaker 05

  Well, I don't think it's, the concern is with wildlife, obviously. The concern is with-

• 47:36Steven Rinella?

  For sure.

• 47:37Speaker 05

  Development and energy extraction and stuff like that, right?

• 47:39Steven Rinella?

  For sure. Yeah, it removes a lot of roadblocks to things like, as you say, development. Yeah, there are some real significant pain points in the Endangered Species Act. I mean, the most obvious example of that is the way wolves and grizzlies have been handled, where, in the case of grizzlies, for decades, you have decades where grizzlies have reached recovery status, as defined when they were listed. Yeah. But people block the de-listing because they view it as my favorite animal protection act. That sort of thing creates a lot of ill will- Right.

• 48:24Steven Rinella?

  -toward the Endangered Species Act, where people just look at these ridiculous examples of people weaponizing the ESA. It creates all kinds of animosity toward the ESA, and then you get actions like this. I'm not trying to blame certain people for it, that's what I'm saying. Then you get people that are like, "All right, I'm done with the whole damn thing." Yeah. It's a polar, I mean, it's a legitimately polarizing topic because of the way that it's played out in contemporary politics, especially like in the West here, but man, to say that the whole thing is rotten is maybe a step too far.

• 49:00Speaker 01

  911, what's your emergency? Please help us, they're everywhere. We think they're murder warnings.

• 49:10Speaker 02

  911 Nashville returns.

• 49:12Steven Rinella?

  There's a homicide detective down here.

• 49:14Speaker 02

  Three bodies on the ground. With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 49:18Steven Rinella?

  All sins swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues in the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 49:25Speaker 02

  Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

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• 50:32Steven Rinella?

  One point about it, and there's 100 ways to get into this. Yeah. Only 2% of the species that go on the Endangered Species Act come off because of recovery. Mm-hmm. 2%. Things come off because they didn't deserve listing in the first place. Yeah. Things come off because they're extinct. Things, 2%. There's some big examples, bald eagles, whatever. 2% come off because it worked. So that's another thing people will look and be like, "Well, it doesn't work anyways." Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's one of those things, too, it's just like, governance is messy.

• 51:16Steven Rinella?

  You write a law with the best of intentions and it can be used in any number of ways through litigation and all kinds of stuff to, you know, there's tons of different perspectives on the ESA, but like, just getting rid of harm, including habitat, is wildly sort of like a huge, like, leap in imagination. Like, let's say, for some reason, just to, you already made this point, I just want to double make it. Let's say there's a, there's a particular cliff face, and there's a type of swallow that nests on that cliff face. Mm-hmm. And it's the only place those swallows ever nest. Some guy says, "I want to blow that cliff face up."

• 51:58Steven Rinella?

  Historically, they've been like, "Well, you can't blow that up, because that's an endangered swallow that nests on that cliff face." Now it'd be like, "Okay, wait till all the swallows are off." Right. Then you can blow the cliff face up. That way, you're not technically taking any of the swallows. Yeah.

• 52:16Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's not like the people who crafted this actually believe that destroying habitat is not, quote, "harm." Like, they know-

• 52:24Steven Rinella?

  No, they're being cute.

• 52:25Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 52:26Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. So-

• 52:28Speaker 05

  Something that got my attention was Randall saying that NOAA is under the Department of Commerce, which I didn't know, and I never considered where it was rolled up in the government. I knew it wasn't DOI, but I Googled, "Why would it be under Commerce?" It was created in 1970, NOAA was, and the most famous driving reason for NOAA's placement was a political feud between President Richard Nixon and his Secretary of the Interior, Wally Hickel. Following the 1970 Kent State shootings, Wally wrote a public letter criticizing the Nixon administration, criticizing their handling of the Vietnam War demonstrators, and urged the president to listen to the youth.

• 53:11Speaker 05

  Furious with Wally's public defiance, Nixon chose to punish him by stripping the proposed Oceanic and Atmospheric Agency from the DOI's purview. Instead, he handed the agency to the Commerce Secretary Maurice Stans, a loyal ally. So that's how we got to where NOAA is under the Department of Commerce, which when you hear it, you're like, "Well, that seems weird." And there's a good reason why it is so weird.

• 53:37Steven Rinella?

  Ten soldiers and Nixon's gun, we're fine. I wish I could do a better Nixon impression.

• 53:45Speaker 05

  I know Phil can, he just doesn't want to.

• 53:47Steven Rinella?

  No, I can't. That's cool. I don't mean that. Say again? Oh, go on. Wildfire, making money on wildfires? No, we're talking about daylight savings time. Oh, that's what's up now? And if it's going to become permanent. This, this whole thing is so confusing to me. I got you, we're going to clear it all up. Did the farmer start it? Was it Ben Franklin? Two hours, one hour? Okay. We're going to clear it all up. So right now, the House of Representatives has passed the Sunshine Protection Act, which is not the first time they've, they've brought this bill up. It's a bill to make DST, or daylight savings time, permanent. What does that mean?

• 54:29Steven Rinella?

  Daylight savings time, permanent daylight savings time, means one hunter's legal shooting light comes at 7:05 a.m. and another's at 9:12 in the same time zone, in this case, Central Time. This gives an extra hour of shooting daylight in the afternoon. And so the question we're going to examine, is the extra afternoon light worth it?

• 54:47Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 54:48Steven Rinella?

  All right, we got one. Hold on, I'm already confused. I'm already confused, and I hope you're not making the mistake of thinking that the numbers we apply to this somehow affects how many hours of daylight there are. No, it's all relative to work hours. Yes. That's what I'm talking about. Yes. Because we'll get into it.

• 55:09Speaker 05

  When I was in college, this is the one thing that got me to write an email to a politician, was that when the time would change, when it does, the bars would still stay open till 2 a.m., but now the sun's coming up an hour earlier. So I'm losing an hour of sleep now every time the clocks roll back. So I'm like, "We got to get this fixed. We need that extra hour in the afternoon instead of in the morning, because I'm not going to leave the bars early to make it up for shooting light." So I'm looking out for those kids.

• 55:38Steven Rinella?

  The drinkers lobby.

• 55:39Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 55:40Steven Rinella?

  Okay, take it away. So to answer this question, we're going to go way back. What is daylight savings and where'd it come from? A plain definition is that daylight savings time is the practice of setting our clocks one hour ahead of standard time in the warmer months, so a given stretch of daylight lands later in the day. We move the clocks forward one hour on the second Sunday in March and back one hour on the first Sunday in November. The origins of daylight savings time can be traced to Ben Franklin, though tenuously. As U.S. envoy to France, Ben Franklin published a satirical essay that Parisians could save 64 million pounds of candle wax if people just woke up with the sun. He did propose firing cannons at dawn, but never proposed changing the clocks. Fast forward about 100 years, and George Hudson, a New Zealand postal worker and entomologist,

• 56:25Steven Rinella?

  proposed a two-hour shift, primarily so he'd have more daylight to collect bugs after work. I don't know if anyone's ever observed this before, but that Ben Franklin, smart man. He's up some- I don't know if anybody's noticed that. This was October to March in the Southern Hemisphere, but same for us, it's opposite in the Northern. He didn't get a whole lot of traction until 1907, when William Willett, an English builder, Royal Astronomical Society fellow, and golfer, proposed a similar advancement, but in four 20-minute increments across the month of April, and reversing that in September. The stated benefits were more recreation time, less crime, less energy. To Spencer's point, people in the past being dumb, this is a great example. We hate changing our clocks once.

• 57:10Steven Rinella?

  This dude proposed changing it four times over a month. The first official adoption is 1916 in Germany, which was an effort to conserve coal for the World War I war effort. This takes us, oh yeah, Germany was the first one. That's how this started? Yep. Now, granted- One of their plots for world domination? Immediate, I mean, within months, the rest of Europe adopted it for the same reasons. So there seemed to be some merit there. Fast forward two years, 1918, the US adopts DST for the same reason, but repealed in 1919 after the war amid public complaint, much of it from the agricultural community. I'd always thought that the ag community loved daylight savings time, like that was the whole point. It is not the case. They do not like it.

• 57:53Steven Rinella?

  1920s DST becomes optional daylight savings time. And there's limited local adoptions, pretty patchy throughout the US. There's all sorts of issues with trains and commerce and whatnot. Uh, 1942 FDR institutes year-round wartime, which is year-round daylight savings for energy saving. In 1945, three years later, wartime's repealed. States and cities set their own rules. Again, it results in this patchwork and confusion peaks in 1954. When, for example, New England extends through October while all their states end in September and then some go to November and some do one hour, some do stagger. And so it's a mess. They delivered that for about 20 more years. And in 1966, the Uniform Time Act is passed, which standardized DST from the last Sunday in April to the last Saturday in October.

• 58:39Steven Rinella?

  That said, states may exempt themselves, which is how Arizona, Hawaii, and portions of Indiana were exempted. You'll also notice when we look at these lines, there's a creep, the boundaries creep where the western edges push to escape those late sunrises.

• 58:56Steven Rinella?

  1974 to 75, the same things enacted during the oil embargo. They enact year-round DST to save energy. There's a ton of public backlash, specifically citing kids going to school in the dark. Um, and within eight months, they roll it back to the standard six month on again, off again. Can I ask a question, just to be clear here? When they're talking about energy savings, they mean that it's an hour less- Yep. -that you'll spend dicking around your house at night with the lights on? It's the lights on, which we'll get into. And now it seems to be offset by AC and all the other things that take energy. 2005, the Energy Policy Act extends DST from the March to October, or I'm sorry, from April to October to March to November. And that's what we have today. And it was mostly energy related.

• 59:42Steven Rinella?

  The current Sunshine Protection Act introduced in the Senate originally in 2018, then again in 2021, then in 2022, has been reintroduced again here in the House in 2026 and passed and sitting with the Senate. So there's this long history of daylight savings. And, and ultimately, the main critique is that it just needs to be the same across the board, whether it's early or late, whatever. Yeah. I got a question. Yeah. Why daylight, why do they want to go with permanent daylight savings time versus permanent standard time? There's- What's the- It's basically a trade-off if you want time in the morning or time at night. Gotcha. And that's the question we'll get into. Daylight in the morning. So they're talking about, I, I'm just gonna take the perspective of the dumb guy out there. Yep. Cause that's where I'm at on this.

• 1:00:27Steven Rinella?

  This means you don't have to message your clock anymore? The goal is to never change the clock. Okay. Yep. So it's just, are you, are you gonna adopt the fall time? Mm-hmm. Or the springtime? Yes. I don't care. Well, it's, are you gonna adopt the permanent summertime or the permanent wintertime? Cause that's when it changes. That sixes to me. I support this whole thing, cause I think the whole clock change thing is dumb. Agreed. Yeah. So the question is- I'll tell you why later. Uh, let's, let's just clarify terms, because I think we need it at this point. What we do currently is we switch twice a year, spring forward one hour and fall back. Everyone hates it. There's been permanent standard time, which is what Steve's talking about, where we stop switching, we keep the quote unquote natural clock, which has lighter mornings and darker evenings,

• 1:01:12Steven Rinella?

  and happens to be recommended by most sleep scientists and the American Academy of Sleep Medicine. Yeah. And then what the, what Congress is passing is permanent DST, which is to lock the clocks one hour ahead forever. Lighter evenings, darker mornings. Well, until they change it again. Until they get kids out having fun riding their bikes all summer long at night? They need to get up in the morning. If, if I have one takeaway from your segment so far, it's that it won't be forever. It'll be for 20 years. There's a comment-

• 1:01:43Steven Rinella?

  In one of the studies I read, it said, it took us 50 years to get this standardized. Yeah. What's next? Hmm. So that, that said, states can still opt out, which- What? If they, if, under this rule, they have to be in the same time zone. There's a few other stipulations, but if you really hate this idea, your state can't opt out. Would it be that Indiana was right all the wrong or wrong or right all along? It depends, it depends on what you think is important. Arizona's, Arizona, Hawaii, and Hawaii, the, the territories, none of them observe it cause they're near the equator and it doesn't really matter. It's just useless. But it does matter significantly, especially for the groups that are the two corners of the time zones, which we're, we're gonna talk about. The time zones themselves are an interesting little tidbit. So where, where did these come from?

• 1:02:29Steven Rinella?

  Uh, to weigh the pros and cons, we need to have a firm understanding of those time zones themselves, because the impact of this proposal is drastically different. If you live, say, in the northeast corner, or I'm sorry, the northwest corner of North Dakota, which is the top northwest corner of, of the central time zone, or Panama City, which is the far southeast corner of the central time zone. So these time zones came originally from the Astronomical Societies. Uh, basically, they wanted 24 worldwide meridians, which is 15 degrees apart. Um, and that would, that would collapse all these different railroad times into four time zones across the US, eastern, central, mountain, Pacific. Um, and every, every time zone is built around the central line of, line of longitude,

• 1:03:10Steven Rinella?

  where the clock is supposed to match, noon would line up with that meridian, um, perfectly. And so that's why it's in the middle of these time zones. That's great. So instead of, you know, like, when you, it, the, the time zone line that you're basing it off isn't the split in between, you know, Alabama and Georgia or where your split is. It's the, the center of that generally. Um, the farther east you go from that meridian, so in this case, let's take the center of the country and you're going towards the edge of North Dakota. The, the further east you go, the earlier the sun runs against your clock. Mm-hmm. The farther west you go, so towards Florida, the later it runs against your clock.

• 1:03:51Steven Rinella?

  Um, to put it simply, latitude and longitude, longitude, east to west, is when the sun crosses your clock. Latitude, north to south, is how long the day is. And both of those, those get, um, they, they stack at those corners, the northwest and southeast corners. Mm-hmm. So, Phil, if you don't mind pulling up that first little slider guy that I've got, what we're gonna look at is the two time zones, um, for, for the, for the, you know, we can choose. Well, which time zone do you guys want? Central? It doesn't matter to me at all.

• 1:04:27Steven Rinella?

  Which one? Central. Central. Central. Central's the largest. So click on Central, in this case, Williston, North Dakota and Panama City, Florida. Um, and you'll see in December 21st, you've got a 9:42 AM wake up in North Dakota- Damn. -versus a 7:35. Sunset isn't that drastically different, but that wake up is crazy. Now, if you go back, let's, let's take it, uh, let's call it November 7th.

• 1:04:53Steven Rinella?

  What you're looking at here, and this is how you can measure it from a hunter's perspective, you'd be 8:49 AM under permanent standard daylight savings time, which is, you, you can't hunt before work. I, and I'm only talking weekdays here, I'm not talking weekends. Okay. Um, you're not gonna hunt before work with, with an 8:49 AM sunrise. But I don't think you're hunting before work when it's a 7:49. Exactly. That is my whole point, is I don't think it matters. Cause you know, take an hour off this, you're, you're gonna go, if, if you sunrise, shooting light isn't until 7:15, you're not gonna get that sit-in before work. I don't know, man. If you work here, where people just do what they want all the time anyway. Yeah. Now that said, after work, you got great options. 6:28 sundown, so shooting light ends at seven.

• 1:05:37Steven Rinella?

  Dude, you can sneak out of work at four, hop up in your tree stand, and you got two hours to hunt. Can I share a dirty secret with you? Please.

• 1:05:46Steven Rinella?

  I used to like when they switched the clocks for fall bow hunting. Cause you'd get out of school, your old man would pick you up at school, rush you out to sit in the tree stand, and you just got to the magic hour that much quicker. Hmm. Before, it felt like you were up there forever. But then all of a sudden, you just rush out there and the minute you get in your tree, dude, it's the it's the magic hour. I think for high schoolers. Look forward to it because it shortened how long you had to sit in your tree before he saw something. Yeah, I used to get like 90 minutes after school where, you know, which was perfect. You're like. Because my old man, he might be up there for a million hours. Yeah. You know? Well, I'm sorry for the kiddies, but for the people who have nine to fives, I think this is great news.

• 1:06:31Steven Rinella?

  Um, so, so what we're demonstrating here, and you, you could do it across all the time zones, you can check winter solstice, all the things, but you, you guys get it. Um, there, the, the trade off is region, regional, um, especially as you live on the, the far extremes of these time zones. Um, and so, so why it matters to everyone, there's, there's very clearly documented associations with the time change specifically. There's more car crashers, there's less robberies, there's more heart attacks, more strokes, there's mood implications, I could go on. But ultimately, what does it mean for us as hunters? And for hunters, there's few elements, energy use, usage is the first one.

• 1:07:07Steven Rinella?

  Uh, there, there's this argument that daylight savings time increases. Energy efficiency because you don't have your lights on as long because the sun's up. Um, the jury's out, it seems that the increased usage of home appliances and AC during peak heat hours. Uh, throughout the year after daylight savings would actually offset that because lights have gotten so efficient with like LED lights and whatnot, as opposed to. Heating up your oven at five o'clock when the sun's still shining is going to be significantly more energy draining and so it's kind of a moot point. Um, from the rancher impact, because we love our ranchers here, uh, the switch is what's annoying. It seems like they don't really care which one's which, um, it's just like, choose one schedule. I want the milk truck to show up at the same time every day. I don't want my cows to have to change twice a year for their schedule.

• 1:07:51Steven Rinella?

  Um, deer vehicle coll- and, and that was, that was actually a tough one for me to wrap my mind around, like, why is that time really matter? But if you had like a morning routine, like your morning poop or something, and then someone said, oh wait, actually you need to do that an hour earlier today. Twice a year, it'd be super annoying to adjust all your routines and so. You'd take up smoke and. I feel for the cows. Yep. Um, another interesting one is deer vehicle collision.

• 1:08:14Speaker 05

  This is the big one.

• 1:08:15Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, man.

• 1:08:15Speaker 05

  If you're a hunter, you're like, oh, okay, now I'm convinced.

• 1:08:18Steven Rinella?

  Yep, we're getting even, even more dialed. So this is a study that covers one over one million collisions and 96 million hourly traffic observations. Collisions are 14 times more frequently two hours after sunset than before, which is pretty clear. Um, the fallback shift puts peak traffic into darkness at the time of the rut, which also sees more deer injuries. Year round DST would prevent approximately 36,550 deer deaths, 33 human deaths, 2,054 injuries and 1.2 billion dollars in costs annually. Permanent standard time, which would be not shifting the clocks, would make collisions worse at 2.4 billion dollars annually.

• 1:09:00Speaker 05

  37,000 more deer out there walking around if we change the clocks because they're not getting hit by vehicles.

• 1:09:05Steven Rinella?

  Save big bucks. Save big bucks. That's good. Yeah. And you have a logo for that with a dollar sign and a big buck.

• 1:09:16Steven Rinella?

  And then in little letters, you say, take your pick. Play on words. That's great. Yeah. And so finally, the, the ultimate question I wanted to answer is your hunt schedule. Do you have, uh, weekends are weekends, but on a workday, if you're trying to get in before or after. Um, does permanent daylight saving time give you, you give hunters more hours before or after and what's the trade off? And so Phil, if you can pull up that second slider, what we're going to look at is total hunting minutes, which I defined as before, from 30 minutes prior to sunrise. Up till 8:00 AM and from 4:30 PM till 30 minutes after sunrise. So this is a working man's schedule here. Yeah, it's a working man. Yeah, exactly. Like we, like I said, weekends are weekends, we're just trying to sneak out after. School teacher's schedule. There you go. Uh, and in this case, we'll, uh, we'll talk again, North Dakota and Panama City.

• 1:10:02Steven Rinella?

  And what we can do, if you want to slide that towards November, uh, look at that, that second. Though the blue is your morning minutes that's available, the orange is your afternoon minutes. And so that top, the top row itself is standard time, the second row is permanent DST, uh, or daylight savings. And so you end up getting a few more minutes when you switch in North Dakota. If you're down in Florida, it doesn't really change. Um, but then if you look at the full year, so under Williston, the second set of bars. You end up with significantly more hours of sunrise under the system than you do under standard. And you can, you can apply that kind of across, and again, it's, it's, it's greater at the northwest corner than it is in the southeast. Hmm. And so there you go. I'm a big fan. I think it's great.

• 1:10:47Steven Rinella?

  Hmm. Yeah, if I was alive a long time ago and someone would have brought this whole thing up in the first place. Ben Franklin, whatever, like, you know, we're hanging out. Um, I would have said, man, let's just, no, let's just do, focus on something different. Like this thing just seems like a headache, it's going to be hard to get by in. It just feels arbitrary. It's taken like a hundred years. It's like stuff, just the sea, I like the seasons.

• 1:11:16Steven Rinella?

  Like, just no. If this sticks, it'll be really interesting in like 30 or 40 years to tell little kids about how we used to change the clocks twice a year.

• 1:11:26Speaker 05

  I, I feel like they've been talking about changing this though, my whole life. This feels the closest it's ever come because Trump said if it gets to his desk, he'll sign it and it would be a big win for Republicans.

• 1:11:35Steven Rinella?

  Because he's a big bow, he's a big bow hunter. When he gets off work, you know, he's always up at the old tree.

• 1:11:41Speaker 05

  Yeah. I bet it happens this time. This is it. This is where we, we make the change permanent.

• 1:11:47Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:50Steven Rinella?

  We could go down through hunters, but we've gone on for a while. No, you're good.

• 1:11:54Speaker 05

  I do like Nate's, uh, note about upland retirees, more daylight to hunt, fewer clock change health risks.

• 1:12:01Steven Rinella?

  I'm just saying, if you're, if you're hunting upland birds, you're probably retired, so none of this matters to you anyways. And you're just less likely to have a heart attack with the lack of clock change. Yeah, that's a good report. I'm with you.

• 1:12:15Speaker 01

  911, what's your emergency? Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder hornets.

• 1:12:23Speaker 02

  911 Nashville returns.

• 1:12:25Steven Rinella?

  It's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground.

• 1:12:28Speaker 02

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 1:12:31Steven Rinella?

  Oh, since swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 1:12:38Speaker 02

  Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville, all new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

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• 1:13:45Steven Rinella?

  Back to Colorado. Back on the, the fur ban thing. It's dead. It didn't go anywhere. Um. Colorado Parks and Wildlife Commission voted six to five. That rejected the petition that would have been. Five, there's still five people that's also good. I mean, poll assesses people in there, right? They're not going anywhere. They actually put some new people on, um, which we could talk about.

• 1:14:09Speaker 05

  What, what if it would have passed? Would if it went into action at that point or was there like another hurdle? Wow.

• 1:14:14Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, it would, I mean, there would have been exceptions to, to think like flies, felt hat, stuff like that. But anyway, it's, it's, it's done. It's not happening. Good. Um, I, I think, I, I think we should take credit for that. We should. We got on it. Commit, one of the commissioners, Dallas May, said CPW did a survey in April and 50%, 57% of the public did not support that ban. So, you know, they went along with, with what the people wanted.

• 1:14:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, six to five is basically 57%.

• 1:14:45Steven Rinella?

  Exactly. Um, the, this was, uh. This was that original proposal by, uh, the Center for Biological Diversity that we talked about a bunch, but we're moving on. 43% of Coloradans. I know, that's my takeaway. Not be able to sell or buy a product made from muskrat fur. I mean, I, I'm not in charge of the survey, but if you think about where people live in Colorado. You know what I mean? Like that, that concentrated number of people on the front range that probably would have supported it. It kind of makes sense. I would have just. Talking, oh, good. I would have felt a lot better with a seven to four commission vote. It doesn't matter. It's done. I know. I'll tell you a quick story. I was down and I gave a talk down in San Antonio, Texas a weekend ago.

• 1:15:32Steven Rinella?

  To Texas Wildlife Association. And in my talk, I was joking with them about how everybody in Colorado always bitches about you people.

• 1:15:42Speaker 05

  The Texans.

• 1:15:43Steven Rinella?

  Coming up and buying all their land.

• 1:15:45Speaker 05

  I used to.

• 1:15:46Steven Rinella?

  But I'm like, the way things are shaking out in Colorado, I would say that the more the merrier. They need more Texans. Open the border. They need more Texans to get that place straight back out.

• 1:15:56Speaker 05

  There's probably people from Colorado now that are moving to Texas because they like the way.

• 1:16:01Steven Rinella?

  Messing their whole. Austin. Oh, yeah. Left wingers. This is a controversial statement I'm about to make. I don't want to get political.

• 1:16:08Speaker 05

  You don't say.

• 1:16:09Steven Rinella?

  Lefties don't want to live in lefty states.

• 1:16:11Speaker 05

  Not anymore.

• 1:16:12Steven Rinella?

  Lefties want to live in righty states.

• 1:16:14Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:16:15Steven Rinella?

  The big lefty states lose population to the righty states.

• 1:16:19Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:16:19Steven Rinella?

  It's so weird.

• 1:16:20Speaker 05

  Yeah, demographics.

• 1:16:21Steven Rinella?

  Because they're like, I don't want to live with someone breathing down my neck all the time. But, you know, I don't want to get political.

• 1:16:27Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:16:29Speaker 05

  All right, um. We'll move on. They're, they're, they, they did have some options they could have gone with, which was keep the current regulations, ban the sale of fur products with exceptions, ban the sale of raw pelts with exceptions. That all seemed confusing and

• 1:16:45Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:46Speaker 05

  they just got rid of the whole thing. The second thing that happened

• 1:16:51Speaker 05

  at this meeting was that because they couldn't just let the fur bear thing go completely is the commission voted also six, five to impose new daily bag limits on seventeen fur bear species. Now, um, that basically what that means is trappers and hunters, that like the coverage on this, I felt like was kind of screwy because everything mentioned trapping, nothing mentioned hunting. Um, it was definitely like, the coverage was aimed at like painting trapping a certain way, I felt like. And to kind of left the hunting part of it out of it. But anyway, no more than two animals per species per day.

• 1:17:36Speaker 05

  Um, those species are badger, bobcat, beaver, coyote, muskrat, striped skunk, western spotted skunk, raccoon, red fox, mink, possum, pine marten, ringtailed cat, gray fox, swift fox, longtailed weasel and shorttailed weasel.

• 1:17:53Steven Rinella?

  Two muskrats a day.

• 1:17:54Speaker 05

  That's it. Um.

• 1:17:56Steven Rinella?

  Babe.

• 1:17:57Speaker 05

  Now, CPW proposed a fifteen animal daily limit, which was largely a symbolic cap because very few trappers would ever reach that number. Of course, wildlife advocacy, advocacy groups were like, no, that's way too many. Um, so they came up with a couple of different options. Eight animals a day for common species that are often considered like a nuisance for livestock owners like coyotes, raccoons, red foxes. Four animals a day for less common species like pine marten and mink. Um, ultimately, those options didn't go through. The commission adopted an even stricter rule, which was the two per species per day.

• 1:18:41Speaker 05

  Um, this isn't like, this isn't banning trapping. You can still trap. Um, kind of.

• 1:18:47Steven Rinella?

  You can, can I ask a stupid question? Yeah.

• 1:18:53Steven Rinella?

  For like, if you, if I were to say to you, you can only harvest four animals a day. We're talking about Martin and mink.

• 1:19:04Steven Rinella?

  How does that, how does that work out in practice? Because you're going to have more than four traps out there. I mean, like, does a good day turn into a bad day? Yeah. And what if you get six? It's, yeah, it's meant to like really upend your deal. Like if you're setting like, it would be that if you're trapping muskrat and muskrats, possums, there's no. You don't have control. There is no, there, there is no species concern about these species, but it would mean that you'd be like, I, I, do I make three sets? Right. Trusting that one of those sets doesn't pay off? That's what I'm.

• 1:19:34Speaker 05

  Yeah, you would turn people into violators for sure.

• 1:19:37Steven Rinella?

  It's, um, on its face, it doesn't seem crazy because people reach those levels, but it does kneecap you in terms of how it plays out on the ground if you want to stay in compliance. Yeah, normally what you do when you try it, like a, a normal state that is interested, a normal state that is interested in like honest wildlife management does they, when they look at a species that's susceptible to over harvest, they create unit wide quotas. Right. And the unit wide quota, everyone that gets something, say it's a bobcat, everyone that gets a bobcat calls a hotline or goes online, reports their bobcat. As you approach the unit wide quota, you give a twenty-four hour or forty-eight hour notice that the season is closing. Yeah.

• 1:20:22Steven Rinella?

  Or if you're racing toward the quota, they might call it, knowing that in the next forty-eight hours, the quota will be achieved. That's like a serious grown up way Right. of handling this problem. This is a way meant to like kneecap people.

• 1:20:35Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:20:36Steven Rinella?

  And prevent people and, and basically criminalize normal activity. Right. Based on nothing.

• 1:20:41Speaker 05

  And to be clear, like even bobcats, which are regulated tightly in some states, like none of these species did CPW, like none of them are biologically unsustainable, right? Like even with no limits, the populations were doing fine, right? Um, so i- it's just a like, this vote is just like a broader trend in Colorado towards restricting you know, things like mountain lion hunting, wolf, wolf restoration thing, like it, it's all part of this trend to like make it harder for people, uh, that hunt, uh, and trap. Um, now, like, the thing about this is, is that impact, practical impact

• 1:21:27Speaker 05

  on people in Colorado is probably not going to be, there's not probably not much to it because in nineteen ninety-six, amendment fourteen passed in Colorado, which banned the use of leg hold traps, instant kill body gripping traps, snares and poisons for, for hunting and for, for hunting and trapping. So the only way you can trap in Colorado is with live box traps. Is that what they?

• 1:21:54Steven Rinella?

  Unless you're under a depredation permit.

• 1:21:56Speaker 05

  And so like, the practicality of like putting out a bunch of live traps, it's just not there. Like not many, there's not many people doing it in Colorado. There's very few high volume, like commercial trappers. So is this going to have a big impact? I don't think so. Um, the impact I think you would see is on hunters, probably more than, than, uh, than trappers, like things like shooting coyotes, you know, two a day. Um, so that's kind of where it's at. Um, my, there's a, some interesting info here from Matt Eckert, who's a CPW deputy assistant director.

• 1:22:40Speaker 05

  Unlimited, unlimited daily bag limits with live trapping, which is the only method of trapping allowed and hunting harvest numbers gathered from harvest surveys far below the maximum allowable harvest that would be considered sustainable. So they're nowhere near again, like endangering any of these species. The agency sold twenty thousand fur bear permits last year. Eighty-five percent of those permit holders did not harvest an animal. So whatever, that, that's three thousand people with, with, uh, fur bear permits harvested, you know, at least one animal. Um, so it's just like not

• 1:23:22Speaker 05

  a big thing in Colorado, but it's definitely like a statement from the commission to like, just make it more difficult for people.

• 1:23:28Steven Rinella?

  These people are such little, like they're such worms too, because they, they, they have an agenda, they have like an animal rights, animal protectionist agenda. And over time, they've abandoned like the, the, the, the PETA approach.

• 1:23:42Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:23:43Steven Rinella?

  The PETA approach is sort of make noise socially, right? Make outlandish claims, hire celebrities to do little celebrity spokesman bits. That doesn't work.

• 1:23:55Steven Rinella?

  And they've gotten shrewd enough now where they've adopted

• 1:23:59Steven Rinella?

  this kind of language of wildlife management.

• 1:24:02Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:24:02Steven Rinella?

  And they've infiltrated game commissions. They've entered the political sphere. And they start using the vernacular of people who sort of are invested in wildlife management, who understand wildlife management. And they can, they're achieving their ends, they're achieving their goals by masquerading.

• 1:24:22Speaker 05

  Yeah, and they're undermining.

• 1:24:23Steven Rinella?

  Wildlife professionals.

• 1:24:24Speaker 05

  They're undermining like the effectiveness of the people that are actually doing like the boots on the ground and work and the, and the, the work of collecting data, like they're, they're making it so like the, the guidance and advice of the agency is just like not valuable, you know?

• 1:24:43Steven Rinella?

  I think this, something this brings up to me.

• 1:24:47Steven Rinella?

  I want to preface by saying I'm not there, but I've always wondered about this. At what point would it be?

• 1:24:55Steven Rinella?

  This is a question everybody has to ask themselves.

• 1:24:59Steven Rinella?

  If wildlife management in your state or in this country in general veers so off course and the objective of it is lost, at what point would you ever decide that you're just going to do things the way that makes sense to you and effectively become a vigilante?

• 1:25:15Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:25:16Steven Rinella?

  Individual, meaning

• 1:25:19Steven Rinella?

  you know, if, if it got to where the mission was lost.

• 1:25:24Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:25:26Steven Rinella?

  Would you ever say, um, we've strayed so far from like the conservation objectives? And we've strayed so far from anything that makes sense. I'm just going to do my own thing.

• 1:25:40Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean.

• 1:25:40Steven Rinella?

  Because, because I don't trust these people anymore.

• 1:25:42Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:25:43Steven Rinella?

  And, and I, I'm not proposing anyone get there, but I always ask myself, because there is a point. Like if all of a sudden tomorrow, they said, all of a sudden tomorrow, the, the animal rights people gained their momentum.

• 1:25:54Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:25:55Steven Rinella?

  And there's all of a sudden this like federal law and some federal law comes into place. Uh, it is forbidden to consume wild venison.

• 1:26:05Steven Rinella?

  And it's just against the law. I would, at that point, become a poacher.

• 1:26:09Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:26:10Steven Rinella?

  I just would.

• 1:26:10Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:26:11Steven Rinella?

  I, I wouldn't listen to it. If, if there's a thing that, you know, there's, but there's, but that, that applies to all kinds of things. If it all of a sudden became that free speech, that's like generally free speech is prohibited, I would become, I guess, a free speech vigilante.

• 1:26:23Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:26:24Steven Rinella?

  And all sorts of measures. But like, there's a point at which I would say, you lost me. I'm kind of going on my own on this one.

• 1:26:30Speaker 05

  Yeah, and that's a danger again, I think where like these agencies just can't do their job the right way. It, it, when they're being guided by commissions that have a clear goal to go the other direction, you know?

• 1:26:43Steven Rinella?

  I don't know how, yeah, I don't know how Colorado is going to pull back out of this.

• 1:26:49Steven Rinella?

  Okay, I want to give a silver lining to outdoorsmen there if this were to pass. When I lived in South Dakota. There was a body of water I fish that flirted with the idea of going from the daily limit of four walleyes to three. Naturally, people were against it who fish, but quietly, I was like, well, if this does pass, this will be a different definition of success all of a sudden, because if the, if the limit is four, and you come into the boat dock after a day of fishing, and someone's like, how'd you do, you know? Catching zero walleye is basically the same as like bringing three. It's like, did you get a limit or not? Like, yep, got my limit. Now, if the limit is less, you're more likely to be like, yeah, I got my limit. What a badass trapper I am.

• 1:27:32Speaker 05

  I don't think trappers think that way.

• 1:27:34Steven Rinella?

  I thought, but I thought that was like, uh, they were saying that you now have a limit that you can get per day. Do you understand what I'm saying? If the walleye limit was now three instead of four, everybody's getting limits. Wow, look how great of anglers we are.

• 1:27:50Steven Rinella?

  Silver lining.

• 1:27:53Steven Rinella?

  Molly's Wolf Pack.

• 1:27:55Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, Steve knows, he's coming around. Trapper who got a limit. Now that's a trapper.

• 1:28:03Steven Rinella?

  He's so effective. Well, if it's a two muskrat limit, there's gonna be a lot of great trappers. See? A lot of happy trappers. They're such a good trapper, the state's like- They didn't realize how lucky they are now. You're getting too many. There's trouble brewing in Yellowstone. This is silver lining. This is, this is a very western heavy episode, but we're gonna run with it anyway. Trouble brewing in Yellowstone, Wolf World, concerning a pack of wolves. So there's a pack of wolves originally called the Crystal Creek Pack. Okay? The pack has been in existence since reintroduction. So it's thought to be the first pack that ever coalesced and formed. Of course, all those original

• 1:28:39Steven Rinella?

  wolves in that original pack are all dead, but like as a sort of

• 1:28:44Steven Rinella?

  piece of continuity, the pack has kept going. Reminds me of, I used to live in a house where none of the people on the lease lived in the house, but the house just kept chugging along with various people moving in. There was always four or five people in there. None of them were the original people that ever rented the place in the first place. So from the rent, from the landlord's perspective, it was like the tenants-

• 1:29:09Speaker 05

  There wasn't one like through residence?

• 1:29:11Steven Rinella?

  There's no through line. There's no through line. They had no idea who was living in that house. Just the check came, and it was like that house. So the wolf pack, they die and get replaced, but it sort of exists, alright?

• 1:29:23Steven Rinella?

  It was originally called Crystal Creek Pack. It was renamed after Molly Beatty, who was the first female director of the US Fish and Wildlife Service. She actually died of cancer during the time of the reintroduction. So eventually they call this pack Molly's Pack.

• 1:29:37Steven Rinella?

  Okay, here's, here's where, here's where this gets kinda interesting. This pack has historically stayed put in the park. They spent about 95% of their time in the park, which means, because the park's just, you know, full of people, park rangers and whatnot, they're habituated to humans. But, they've now drifted out of the park. They've drifted eastward into the Shoshone National Forest in Wyoming. This is an area that has a lot of cattle grazing. So there's fear now that this beloved park pack, which is like a, very like a, very much a tourist attraction. The tourist attraction has moved out into the woods. They've moved out into the wild, okay?

• 1:30:23Steven Rinella?

  And there's cattle grazing there, so people are anticipating that this pack is gonna start getting in trouble for killing cattle.

• 1:30:29Speaker 05

  Are, is that, are they in the like trophy zone?

• 1:30:34Steven Rinella?

  They are, they're in the trophy zone. Um, now that Brody brought it up, I'll mention it. Well, you're okay.

• 1:30:39Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:30:40Steven Rinella?

  Wyoming has a area where they manage wolves as a trophy animal, as they ma-, that term's goofy. They manage wolves as a big game animal in the northwest corner of the state. In the rest of the state, they manage them basically as vermin.

• 1:30:55Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:30:56Steven Rinella?

  They run them like coyotes, which is, I, I'm not a huge fan of that at all, but, but they have their extremes. They have, they have two units which demonstrate

• 1:31:10Steven Rinella?

  one of them is like sound management and one of them seems, feels extreme to me. However,

• 1:31:18Steven Rinella?

  it's a fear now that this Molly's Pack's gonna start getting in trouble for killing cattle. So the wolf protectionists, like the park protectionist people, the public, they're saying, hey, we need to go in and suspend grazing leases in Shoshone National Forest to prevent these wolves from having a chance to kill a cow and get in trouble. Alright? So they've tried, they've tried to bump, they've tried to bump the wolves back into the park, because they're denning out of the park. And a method they use to bump wolves is like you send people in there to kinda hang out near the den site. To try to apply a little pressure and get them to nudge back over toward the park. They managed to move them, but not move them all the way, and it feels as though, as we're speaking right now,

• 1:32:04Steven Rinella?

  right now, they're over, still in the national forest, and they still got pups in the national forest. This is Wyoming's hunt area one.

• 1:32:16Steven Rinella?

  They're in a hunt area.

• 1:32:19Steven Rinella?

  There's a bad case of canine distemper in the park, which is trimming back the wolves real bad. So Wyoming already reduced the wolf quota in the trophy area by 50%. But, in this area where this Molly's Pack is hanging out, there's currently, from, there's currently planned to be a four-wolf hunt quota in that area. That season's gonna run from September 15th to December 31st. Again, four-wolf quota in that area. So now you've got wolf advocates, and even some politicians from Jackson, Jackson Hole politicians,

• 1:32:58Steven Rinella?

  asking Wyoming to, to actually come in and halt

• 1:33:06Steven Rinella?

  the, the wolf hunt in unit one. Not to protect just some wolves in general, but, but to protect the wolves they like.

• 1:33:17Speaker 05

  The park wolves that don't know any better.

• 1:33:20Steven Rinella?

  They're like, it was, not that they thought it was okay to hunt, but they're like, yeah, we, we, we understand there's a wolf hunt there. But now that someone might get the ones we know and like, we would like you to close it. They're saying that to the state game commission, and they're trying to put leverage on Shoshone National Forest. To say, no wolf hunting in Shoshone National Forest is here because some people's favorite wolves are over there.

• 1:33:47Steven Rinella?

  They've tried this before, and it hasn't worked with these little pressures. Like, when some wolves were in Colorado, they tried to get Wyoming to come in and say, okay, you can't hunt along the Colorado border for fear that you might kill one of those wolves that we all know about in Colorado.

• 1:34:03Steven Rinella?

  The, the Wolf Project Director in Yellowstone is a guy named Dan Stoller.

• 1:34:08Steven Rinella?

  He's taking a rather circumspect view on the old thing. He said,

• 1:34:13Steven Rinella?

  he said to a news agency, that he'd hate to see an old alpha female, like Wolf 1090F, lose her life to hunting. But that's part of the world of the wolf now. It's been part of the world of the wolf for over 10 years.

• 1:34:30Speaker 05

  Yeah, and a lot longer before that.

• 1:34:32Steven Rinella?

  But they point out that 1090F is world famous.

• 1:34:35Speaker 05

  Is there, um, any speculation on why they chose to leave the park?

• 1:34:40Steven Rinella?

  There's some people throwing darts at it.

• 1:34:42Speaker 05

  But not-

• 1:34:43Steven Rinella?

  I've read some speculations that felt like, they kinda whiffed of not really knowing what we're talking about. It was that there's been very mild winters. Here, try this one out.

• 1:34:53Steven Rinella?

  There's been very mild winters in the park. And so the animals in the park are in very good shape, because there's been wild, mild winters. And so they're too hard for the wolves to catch. There, but somehow, a little over to the east in Shoshone National Forest, which is subject to the same weather patterns, they're ea-

• 1:35:12Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:35:13Steven Rinella?

  You don't know.

• 1:35:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:35:14Steven Rinella?

  They move around.

• 1:35:14Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:35:15Steven Rinella?

  They move around. It's an invisible line that they don't recognize or know about. They move huge distances. In fact, in a day's travel, they could be back where they came from.

• 1:35:26Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:35:27Steven Rinella?

  It's just they're not aware of the line. But it's like, the takeaway on this is, there is an inherent danger

• 1:35:36Steven Rinella?

  in, in the, like, in naming animals, in creating individual personalities around animals, of trying to protect this one and not that one. This is the thing I often preach, and I'm talking to, when I'm talking about wildlife management, to audiences that might not be familiar with the principles of wildlife management, and I always use the analogy of,

• 1:36:00Steven Rinella?

  and I've used it here before, apologies for using it again, imagine that, that, that you have an apple tree, and it produces apples.

• 1:36:10Steven Rinella?

  Animal rights people are very interested in the apples.

• 1:36:15Steven Rinella?

  They take a shine to the individual apples on that tree.

• 1:36:20Steven Rinella?

  A mature wildlife manager takes a great interest in the tree.

• 1:36:27Steven Rinella?

  Because if you take care of the tree, it will always crank out apples. Animal rights people come oblivious to the tree, because they're so concerned about the individual apples. And those apples get eaten, those apples fall to the ground and die.

• 1:36:43Speaker 05

  Inevitably.

• 1:36:45Steven Rinella?

  But that tree will crank for hundreds, well, it'll crank for a long time.

• 1:36:51Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:36:52Steven Rinella?

  Decades and decades it'll produce. And so here you have people fixating on the apples that they know, the apple growing closest to their house, which they, which they, which they polish and look at and take pictures of. And the tree is this kind of,

• 1:37:07Steven Rinella?

  you know, not of concern. But, when it's, you see- Happens to when you get like, you'll get like an albino animal in a, in an area and people, it'll put a way for people to know that I albino animal. And they're like, someone needs to come save the albino animal because I know that one.

• 1:37:30Steven Rinella?

  I recognize that individual. And it just, it, it creates a mess. It creates a mess.

• 1:37:40Steven Rinella?

  I can't tell what I hope happens here.

• 1:37:44Steven Rinella?

  If they naturally move back into the, honestly, I think that, that if they naturally move back into the park and it's like crisis averted.

• 1:37:54Speaker 05

  You'd be disappointed.

• 1:37:55Steven Rinella?

  No, no, it might be, it's better for just be the best thing because.

• 1:38:00Speaker 05

  It's better for wolf lovers and wolf hunters.

• 1:38:02Steven Rinella?

  It might be the best thing. Because the state, the national forests and the state cannot capitulate.

• 1:38:09Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:38:09Steven Rinella?

  Like this is my recommendation. You can not capitulate.

• 1:38:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, but like, we say the wolves don't know where the boundaries of the park are, but there's boundaries, right?

• 1:38:19Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:19Speaker 05

  So like, they're not in there anymore. Maybe they should go back in. It's like.

• 1:38:25Steven Rinella?

  The state cannot, I'm, I'm asking them, like, do not, you cannot capitulate to the, to, to the, to the mob.

• 1:38:33Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:38:33Steven Rinella?

  And say, okay, we're going to extend park jurisdictions way out into the national forests.

• 1:38:37Speaker 05

  Thing is, you can't manage park animals.

• 1:38:40Steven Rinella?

  Yep, they can't, they can't give in, but if the, if the wolves move back.

• 1:38:44Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:38:45Steven Rinella?

  Then the state doesn't need to capitulate and they don't need to deal with.

• 1:38:50Speaker 05

  Firestorm.

• 1:38:51Steven Rinella?

  With what's gonna happen when someone gets this, this famous lady wolf.

• 1:38:56Speaker 05

  I think there's some wolf hunters already plotting for that September 15th.

• 1:39:00Steven Rinella?

  I know there are and I, and I don't hate you.

• 1:39:08Steven Rinella?

  I just, I think that a lot of mother, I think a lot of managers, federal levels, state level, would, if they move back, they'll be like, oh my God, they got.

• 1:39:16Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:39:18Steven Rinella?

  Thank God.

• 1:39:22Speaker 01

  911, what's your emergency?

• 1:39:25Speaker 01

  Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder warnings.

• 1:39:29Speaker 02

  911 Nashville returns.

• 1:39:32Steven Rinella?

  It's a homicide detective down here.

• 1:39:34Speaker 02

  Three bodies on the ground. With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 1:39:38Steven Rinella?

  Oh, since swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues in the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 1:39:45Speaker 02

  Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville, all new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 1:39:51Speaker 01

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• 1:40:51Steven Rinella?

  Speaking of potential for really bad stuff.

• 1:40:56Steven Rinella?

  This, this next segment could be the latest in an ongoing series titled, online predictions markets are weird and seem bad for everything. These are gambling sites where you can buy shares in an outcome. It's typically yes or no question. And it could be, uh, will so and so win an election? Will so and so score touchdown? Will it rain? Will Trump say a certain word? In Topeka, Kansas. Yep. Will this disease spread into this other country? Will there be a hurricane in the next week? Um, and it's a multi-billion dollar industry. The ones you've probably heard of are Kalshi and Polymarket.

• 1:41:36Steven Rinella?

  But there is recently a story in High Country News reported by Kylie Moore. A couple of weeks ago, and she wrote about the relationship between wildfires and prediction markets. And she looked specifically at the 2025 LA fires. People spent $1.2 million betting on 20 different questions about the outcome of those fires. It was like, how many acres are the fires going to burn? Where the fire is going to go, uh, when they'd be contained? And in fact, she points out, there's another site that's launched called Wildfire with, uh, Y's instead of I's. Where it's specifically about making predictions on fires.

• 1:42:18Steven Rinella?

  And, and the, the problem here is you might guess is, uh, we spend a lot of time sort of as, as a society, like public agencies, nonprofits, all this stuff, explaining how people, what people need to do to prevent manmade wildfires, because it's pretty easy in the right conditions for one individual action to have devastating consequences. And now there's a financial incentive for someone to go out and perhaps leave a campfire smoldering.

• 1:42:46Steven Rinella?

  Like, like anything that people can bet on, someone's going to find a way to nudge the outcome that they want. And so it's just really weird that we live in a time now where, uh, you could have financial incentive for a wildfire spreading. Um, and it's a big distinction between betting on, I looked at what else you can bet on and Kalshi last night. How many inches of rain will fall in Houston in July? Whether or not there will be an eight magnitude earthquake in California before the end of this year. How many hurricanes will be in the Atlantic? Like, those are all things that you don't have control over. Not easily manipulated. Right. And so there's a reason like why it's more problematic for an athlete or a referee to bet on sports

• 1:43:31Steven Rinella?

  than it is a guy sitting up in the bleachers. But again, like, this is out there right now. Um, these, these markets justify it by saying this isn't, uh, they're saying this is a type of crowdsourced forecasting. Meaning that you can look at Polymarket and see where the expert money is saying that fire is going to go. And so it's actually, uh, it's actually provides the most accurate information to people. Uh, because they can crowdsourced all this, which is obviously like kind of a bullshit hedge.

• 1:44:09Speaker 05

  Yeah. How, how many billions of dollars is, are they making like those sites making off of gambling on these things?

• 1:44:15Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. I mean, the, the, like, there's proposed legislation right now that prohibits betting related to terrorism, uh, assassinations, wars, crimes.

• 1:44:28Steven Rinella?

  Or gambling on people's deaths because obviously being able to gamble on those things creates perverse incentives. But there's. I bet Randall gets hit by a golf club.

• 1:44:38Speaker 05

  Yeah. Like think of it this way, perverse incentives, like, I bet Randall's going to get a 200 inch buck this year and then lo and behold.

• 1:44:46Steven Rinella?

  He starts hunting his ass off. Yeah.

• 1:44:48Speaker 05

  Or he goes and poaches one.

• 1:44:49Steven Rinella?

  If I could, if I could bet, if I could bet a million dollars on whether or not I'll fall down the stairs today, I will hurl myself from the third floor to the first, but, um, wildfire has not yet like been among the things. The banned substances. Bans, proposed bans. So. Understood. Just a weird, we have enough headwinds in terms of wildfire prevention and fighting in this country. Currently, we don't need people gambling on whether or not that fire is going to spread to the next county. Cause you know what? Somebody might go out there with a can of gas and, and, uh, make that spread to the next county. I already shared this with you.

• 1:45:28Steven Rinella?

  With, with the prediction markets, you're reading about all these kinds of crazy bets about whatever, like, you know, wars and famines, whatever. I was watching a movie called Dien Bien Phu. And it was about the French, it was about the French defeat. By the Viet Minh, which kind of ended up precipitating the, the American war in Vietnam. Yeah. Anyways, in this movie.

• 1:45:53Steven Rinella?

  There's a, there's a betting salon, a parlor, a betting parlor. Mm hmm. It's a big, it's a big plot in the movie. Where everyone, French, Vietnamese, everyone is going into a bookie. To place bets on what hills would fall. And when the Vietminh would overrun Dien Bien Phu. Mm hmm.

• 1:46:17Steven Rinella?

  Including people who are directly in, not directly involved in the fight, but people who are manipulating. Right. The actions of pertaining people. Yeah. Military guys, whatever. So the idea of, of inside betting. It's nothing. Inside trading, betting on out, betting on things that seem almost.

• 1:46:41Steven Rinella?

  You know, morally reprehensible. Yeah. This is not new. No. It's just really brought kind of an age old thing to the forefront. Yeah, and it's accessible to everyone and it's. Except like it's, it's in your pocket, it's right there and anybody can do it.

• 1:46:55Speaker 05

  And it's just giving more options to people who got bad gambling problems, like to be able to bet on anything.

• 1:47:01Steven Rinella?

  I'm not worried about those people.

• 1:47:02Speaker 05

  You're not? Well.

• 1:47:05Steven Rinella?

  No, I don't, I don't, I'm not a big like save you from yourself kind of guy.

• 1:47:08Speaker 05

  Well.

• 1:47:09Steven Rinella?

  But.

• 1:47:11Steven Rinella?

  That's a through line on this whole.

• 1:47:12Speaker 05

  We already got that from the Yellowstone thing you talked about earlier.

• 1:47:16Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, I don't, yeah, I don't, I don't, this generally, I don't want to save people from themselves, but. It is, yeah, to, to make it be that you can like. Profit by like building up a bet around a wildfire and placing the bet. You know, I get it, but it, it's also like a difficult thing to regulate, like you, for the government to come say, hey, no more bet making. Sure. Hmm, which, which they do. They did. They did for a really long time.

• 1:47:44Speaker 05

  This administration likes these markets, though. They've been like generally favorable towards them. A, a recent example of like a better who controlled his own destiny was at the last Super Bowl at Levi's Stadium in California. There was a streaker. Within hours of that happening, it came out that he placed, I think it was a $50,000 bet. On prediction markets that there would be a streaker during the Super Bowl. Plus he got like 10 buddies to do the same thing. And so there were like millions of dollars exchanged and made. Because this guy was like, well, yeah, there's going to be a streaker because I'm going to do it.

• 1:48:16Steven Rinella?

  If you're, if you're that passionate about streaking and you've fully committed to doing it. It would be silly to leave that money on the table. I don't know that that, I don't know that that's the government's problem.

• 1:48:28Speaker 05

  The Super Bowl streaker, maybe not. Yeah. That went okay.

• 1:48:32Steven Rinella?

  I, I feel like if someone said, man. I got a lot, was betting on, you know, whether to be a streaker at the Super Bowl and I lost some of my hard earned money. And now I really feel like I should have been protected by the government. I'd be like, buddy, I don't know, man. You're betting on streakers at the Super Bowl.

• 1:48:50Speaker 05

  The other thing is, is if you outlaw it, somebody's going to make it a thing anyway. There's overseas markets that the mafia will rise again and make all of its money off of betting if, if. You know, legalized gambling goes away. So like someone's going to figure out how to do it.

• 1:49:05Steven Rinella?

  And I'll point out. I mean, I'm not totally hip to current law, but I think arson is generally illegal, illegal anyway. Correct. So he's already got one problem.

• 1:49:16Speaker 05

  Yeah, but they might really, they might really put the screws to you when it comes time to like issue a sentence if they're like. You know, you did this.

• 1:49:25Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, they go to the jury like, and the son of a bitch bet on it. Yeah.

• 1:49:29Speaker 05

  The streaker, he's breaking the law too, when he does it.

• 1:49:33Steven Rinella?

  What's the law he's breaking?

• 1:49:34Speaker 05

  Trespassing.

• 1:49:36Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, oh, that one. I don't know how I feel about that. Should that be illegal?

• 1:49:42Steven Rinella?

  Probably. In certain contexts. Streaking or betting on it.

• 1:49:46Speaker 05

  I also think it came out that that guy had, they're like, wait a minute. This dude has been a streaker before and I, I maybe it's not been well reported on. Like this might've been the second time that he. So he knew he'd come out on top financially.

• 1:50:00Steven Rinella?

  Just as you pointed out with the Buffalo attacks. People have been streaking long before the age of cell phones. There's just something about it. It makes you want to go out there and do it. Trigger happy people. Yep. No, I mean that metaphorically, not just that they like to shoot.

• 1:50:16Steven Rinella?

  They're just a. It's hard to control them. Mm hmm. Americans. We're out there. Yeah. Creeping up on wildlife.

• 1:50:24Speaker 05

  Maybe.

• 1:50:25Steven Rinella?

  Taking our clothes off.

• 1:50:25Speaker 05

  Maybe Carl had a call she bet on the number of bison injuries this year in Yellowstone. And now he just cashed the over.

• 1:50:32Steven Rinella?

  Hmm. All right, we done? We got one more hit on bears' ears. We'll keep this brief. Uh, if you hadn't read in the news, the Trump administration slashed the monument protections for bears' ears. Uh, this was originally designated 2016 under President Obama. And it was, uh, it's about 1.4 million acre monument, uh, under the Antiquities Act. Ostensibly to stop rampant looting across 100,000 plus acre or 100,000 native archaeological sites. Uh, it was backed by a five tribe coalition, et cetera, et cetera. Trump won, slashed the monument in 2017, Biden then fully restored in 2021. Just a few weeks ago, July 13, 2026, Trump two slashed it again, down to about 120,000 acres.

• 1:51:16Speaker 05

  And he did that by executive order.

• 1:51:18Steven Rinella?

  Yes, by executive order, and it's because of an interpretation. He, he feels that. Or his administration, him, whatever, feels that. He can reduce those based on a clause that says the minimum, it's like the minimum amount or. The least amount of space necessary, uh, the, the opponents to this say that you can create monuments, you can't undo monuments. Um, so basically, yeah, it's sorry, the, the clause is smallest area compatible. Um, and it, his rationale is it locked up critical mineral resources. Uh, from a hunting pers- perspective, it doesn't really change the hunting management that's still in the hands of Utah, but it does change the access.

• 1:51:58Steven Rinella?

  Because travel rules in a monument, it restricts you to motorized travel strictly on designated roads, protect cultural ruins and whatnot. Without the monument protections, you can basically do whatever you can do on BLM land, which is a lot. Um, then there's also an opening of a 60 day window for potential mining, oil and gas leasing, which. Will most likely happen in that area. Um, an interesting little, the, the opposite, I, I wouldn't say the opposite, but an interesting effect of this. Um, is that when this whole political kerfuffle went down in 2016 with Obama and then back and forth. Um, pre 2016, visitation was 75,000 people annually. Um, with national headlines and all the digital apps and stuff, it drove visitation of 400,000 visitors last year.

• 1:52:41Steven Rinella?

  That's compared to, so you know, a hundred, or sorry, a 300% increase. Um, compared to a 20% increase across the Utah Big Five in that same area. And so that's altered game behavior, that's increased backcountry pressure. It also calls into question the idea that people are locked out of there under monuments. Exactly. That's a good point. They're locking us up. Except for the 400,000 people went there.

• 1:53:09Speaker 05

  Yeah, Trump's quote was, you can't do anything. You can't go hunting, you can't go fishing, you can't do anything. You can virtually not even walk on it.

• 1:53:16Steven Rinella?

  That's, that's completely false.

• 1:53:17Speaker 05

  Yeah, that was Trump's quote as he like signed the paper.

• 1:53:20Steven Rinella?

  But that was like, we've covered.

• 1:53:25Steven Rinella?

  We've covered every step of this thing.

• 1:53:27Speaker 05

  For 10 years.

• 1:53:28Steven Rinella?

  For 10 years. Um.

• 1:53:33Steven Rinella?

  10 years is, is a long time, but it's not a long time. I, I, I think that when, when you look at this, I think people often lose sight of the fact. That this was first put in place under Obama. I think in the, in the popular imagination, this was like something dating back to Teddy. Roosevelt. Mm hmm. Theodore.

• 1:53:53Steven Rinella?

  Um.

• 1:53:55Steven Rinella?

  And this is likely in two years. This is likely to get undone again. And the issue like this, I become interested is what does it take to have this stop bouncing?

• 1:54:09Steven Rinella?

  There, Obama put it in place. It was under, Trump undid it. Biden put it back in place. Trump was undoing it again. Um.

• 1:54:18Speaker 05

  It's that executive order thing and you'd have to get rid of that and have it be a.

• 1:54:22Steven Rinella?

  Congressional.

• 1:54:23Speaker 05

  Yeah, they proclaim it to be and then getting it undone is a lot harder.

• 1:54:28Steven Rinella?

  Part of the issue and, and where this winds up playing to outdoorsmen as people follow this debate back and forth. Is part of the issue is like, um.

• 1:54:39Steven Rinella?

  There's this fear of losing hunting and fishing privileges. On the monument status.

• 1:54:48Steven Rinella?

  I don't know. The, the executive action on this becomes a little bit silly. And I do wonder what steps it would take. And if it was going to get like some kind of congressional designation, I'm, I'm guessing that there would need to be a, some serious gift, there would need to be some serious

• 1:55:05Steven Rinella?

  debate and probably compromises made.

• 1:55:08Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:55:08Steven Rinella?

  And, and it's, and it might not land at Obama's 1.6.

• 1:55:13Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:55:16Steven Rinella?

  And we have a late story coming in of the, uh, meat eater photo contest. If you scroll down to the bottom of your screen, Phil, if you can pull up that first one. Uh, on the meat eater website, there's a contest that ended yesterday, and these are the top three winners. Um, that'll be chosen today when this podcast launches and the winner will choose two multi edge for trail cameras with solar packs and a hundred dollar meat eater store gift card. And so these are the three we're looking at. First one, what are you seeing there with that gator? Gator come to kill some coons. Who's winning that fight? Or a bunch of coons coming to gang up on a gator. Seen videos where they come in right in there and grab them raccoons.

• 1:55:57Speaker 05

  I'll let that, that one gets my vote hands down, man.

• 1:56:01Steven Rinella?

  Then second one. Oh, there's a mountain lion getting ready to smoke a fawn. Yeah. I'm betting on the lion. Didn't even see that fawn. Yeah. Oh, that's real interesting. On the line.

• 1:56:11Speaker 05

  Damn, and that's from July 6th. That's, that picture's only a few weeks old.

• 1:56:15Steven Rinella?

  Oh, then there's a guy that actually. Might still be digesting parts of that fawn. There's a guy that actually, his trail camera actually picked up the moment his, and his arrow entered the vital area on a Michigan eight whitetail buck.

• 1:56:31Steven Rinella?

  I like that, but I feel like I've seen stuff like that before. Yeah, I know, because you could get, yeah, that's not like trail cammy. Like you could just pull a still off a video and have that. There, my buddy's got a picture of him and his dad in the stand and his dad is missing their target buck. It's hilarious. It's fine, but it's just, it's not trail cammy.

• 1:56:50Steven Rinella?

  So what do we, what do we vote?

• 1:56:51Speaker 05

  Hmm, I vote for the gator. Yeah, me too.

• 1:56:54Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. All right, team gator.

• 1:56:56Speaker 05

  I'd like to be standing there to see what happens. I kind of know what's going to happen.

• 1:56:59Steven Rinella?

  Oh, but I, I, but my buddy in Louisiana has sent me these videos and the gator just comes up and grabs the raccoon. I think they get tuned into these corn feeders.

• 1:57:09Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:57:09Steven Rinella?

  Hmm. No, the raccoon's like, what is that? What is that? And all of a sudden the gator just walks off with the raccoon. I like that the two are sort of hanging back there side by side. Buddy's like, I'll go check it out.

• 1:57:23Steven Rinella?

  All right. I, I, I want to back up on something. I don't mean to be light, I don't, I don't mean to be, um, dismissive on the, on the monument, the Bears years monument status. At this point, I just feel that this is not, this is not done. And I think that in two years,

• 1:57:45Steven Rinella?

  we're probably going to see another reversal.

• 1:57:50Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. Um. Another football.

• 1:57:55Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. I guess it's going to be, yeah, it's going to be another, it's, it's like the, it's today's Anwar. Even though Anwar is still today's Anwar. Tomorrow's Anwar. It's, yeah. Yeah, it's going to be one of those things that just, it's going to be a long time

• 1:58:12Steven Rinella?

  till this gets settled and it will not get settled through executive proclamations. Thanks for listening to the news show.

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