Moment 211: Dr. Andrew Huberman: The Real Reason You're Always Exhausted & Have No Dopamine!

You’re not lazy - you’re depleted. Andrew Huberman reveals how the hustle culture of chasing constant highs is depleting your brain’s dopamine reserves. In this powerful moment, discover why rest isn't laziness, and how to manage your energy for long-term focus, drive, and performance. Listen to the full episode here - Spotify - https://g2ul0.app.link/CdOTZdJl1Sb Apple - https://g2ul0.app.link/kv06yZwl1Sb Watch the Episodes On YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/c/%20TheDiaryOfACEO/videos Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  We can, again, look at things through the lens of biology and say, well, what are we talking, talking about when we're talking about energy? What is this energy thing that people are talking about? And I think it largely boils down to these catecholamines, the dopamine, epinephrine, norepinephrine cocktail that is setting the brain into a mode of attention, of motivation. We now know dopamine is more about motivation to seek rewards as opposed to feeling of pleasure or reward. There's a lot to be said about that. And keep in mind that these three neurochemicals, dopamine, norepinephrine, and epinephrine, have been the neurochemical cocktail by which humans and other mammals have set and pursued goals for hundreds of thousands of years.

• 0:45Speaker 00

  So we don't have like a unique system, a unique neurochemical system for seeking out of mates versus food versus creating shelter versus creating technology and whole societies. And it's not just these three neurochemicals. Certainly, there are other things involved, acetylcholine and, you know, a bunch of other things, neuroplasticity for that matter. But it's clearly the case that the currency that the brain has set around getting us into forward center of mass, as I say, to like envision something, explore, nope, not down there, this way, ah, there's a scent here. And trade out an actual scent for, you know, oh, there's something interesting here, there's someone interesting here. And like exploring that, ah, no, that's a dead path too, cul-de-sac, turn around, go,

• 1:30Speaker 00

  oh, here. And then connecting these nodes of progress. What's progress? Ah, there's kind of another surge of these catecholamines, which sets us in forward center of mass. You know, I don't want to oversimplify the biology, but when we talk about energy, for instance, taking time to rest at night, sleep, taking time to maybe meditate a few minutes or do this practice that I'm a huge fan of, non-sleep deep rest, which is kind of a body scan, deep relaxation, long exhales. It's a practice very similar to an ancient practice called yoga nidra, which has been practiced for thousands of years. It's a kind of pseudo-sleep. And we know from a really nice study that NSDR, non-sleep deep rest, AKA yoga nidra,

• 2:14Speaker 00

  can increase the baseline levels of dopamine in a brain area called the basal ganglia, which is for

• 2:22Speaker 00

  Action generation and also withholding action by about 60% from baseline, just a short period of doing this practice can re kind of re-up dopamine levels to a considerable extent. So remarkable study and there are others like it. So what does that mean? Well, it means that in rest, we build up this capacity to be forward center of mass when we emerge from rest. That's why I think we have to sleep every 24 hours. This is why practices where we deliberately calm ourselves and still ourselves allow us to be more forward center of mass mentally and physically afterwards. It's kind of a duh. When we hear it, we kind of go, oh, duh, of course, rest, action, rest, action. But there's a lot more to it. If you start exploring the layers, you start realizing

• 3:06Speaker 00

  that excitement for things versus burnout. What's burnout? It's just trying to be forward center of mass for too long. It's, you know, misuse of our dopamine circuitry. It's, you know, ignoring the fact that these catecholamines and dopamine in particular, they are not infinite in their availability, right? There's a reservoir of them that can be depleted, but it can be replenished as well. And one of the best analogies for this was actually explained to me by a guy named Dr. Kyle Gillett. He does some online work as a, as a public facing physician, endocrinology in particular. And he said, with dopamine, it's kind of like a wave pool. You have this reservoir that can allow you to pursue things or scroll the internet or build businesses, whatever it is. If you are really forward

• 3:51Speaker 00

  center of mass, very intensely, you start generating these waves. And if you get big waves of dopamine and they crash out of the pool, you start depleting the reservoir. So when I think about drugs of abuse like cocaine, which leads to huge surges in dopamine or amphetamines, huge surges in dopamine. What do we know about huge surges in dopamine? Well, after those huge surges, you drop below your initial baseline.

• 4:17Speaker 00

  To a state in which the same thing doesn't feel as good anymore. You need so much more energy to get the same output.

• 4:24Steven Bartlett?

  That's what this is, right?

• 4:25Speaker 00

  That's what this is. So.

• 4:26Steven Bartlett?

  I'll put this on the screen for anyone.

• 4:27Speaker 00

  Yeah. So my colleague at Stanford, Dr. Anna Lemke, who runs our dual diagnosis addiction clinic and wrote the wonderful book Dopamine Nation, described this best. You know, it's sort of like a seesaw, but what whereby you get a big peak in dopamine, let's say from a drug of abuse like cocaine. People on cocaine, it's all about ideas and what's next. They're not like, hey, let's just kick back. It's all about what's they, in fact, they have a million ideas per second. Most of them are terrible ideas, but they're very forward center of mass motivated. And then when the drug wears off, they feel very low and very depressed. The dopamine is actually depleted below baseline. People that work excessively, right? We all have different abilities to work output.

• 5:09Speaker 00

  People that work excessively and abuse stimulants in order to do that achieve these peaks.

• 5:14Steven Bartlett?

  Is that like, so what would be an everyday example of that working excessively? Do you mean like a pre-workout or something?

• 5:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm not anti-pre-workout. Listen, I love to be well-rested, hydrated, have a nice pre-workout drink, maybe even a little shot of espresso, listen to some music and have an incredible leg day workout. It's an amazing feeling, right? But if you do that every single time, you start stacking all these catecholamine release inducing drugs. Okay. So you're getting adrenaline, you're getting epinephrine, which is adrenaline. Excuse me, you're getting adrenaline, you're getting noradrenaline, also called norepinephrine. You're getting dopamine release. You're highly motivated, you're in that state that everyone is seeking. And you try and do that seven days a week, you're not going to do it. And then you wonder why in the afternoon, you're just completely cooked and you can't do any cognitive work.

• 6:04Speaker 00

  Well, your dopamine and other things have crashed below baseline. So I think it's important to understand that being, as I'm calling it, forward center of mass, like really kind of motivated and pursuing goals is great. But most of the time, we're probably best off just coming off the gas pedal just a little bit to maintain that ability to continue to be forward center of mass. The same thing is true for stress. We hear stress is bad. Well, stress is bad, but it also sharpens your ability to learn. It creates energy, it actually boosts your immune system in the short term. I say.

• 6:41Speaker 00

  Tolerate as much stress as you can, provided you still behave like a kind person, right? Don't say or do things that are unkind. And make sure that you still get great sleep at night. Most people, stress, stress, stress, stress, run around and then they can't sleep at night. And then the next day, they're depleted. But a little bit of stress is healthy. Life is stressed, things are stressful. But again, you're going to be in your best state of mind if you're calm and alert. Alert and calm is the, is the magic recipe. And the ability to sleep at night. If you want to take a bunch of pre-workout and you want to listen to some loud music and have a great crush at workout, great. But you should probably also be able to train without all of that.

• 7:23Speaker 00

  If you're somebody who loves new goals and you, you know, you're very excited about travel and this and that, great. But do you have to layer in 50 things? And then you're sitting around at home and you're wondering why you're so bored when you're back home? And why life is so depressing? And you need more travel, more stimulation? In every domain of life, we see, whether or not it's food, or exercise, or stimulants, or sex, or media. If you push things to the max, you're going to feel depleted and understimulated afterwards. And this trough below baseline, as Anilemki taught us with dopamine nation. That trough is a state that can last a long time. And it's, how long? It's proportional to how high that peak in dopamine was.

• 8:06Speaker 00

  Not how long, but how high that peak in dopamine was. And when you're in that trough, that dopamine depleted state, typically what people do is they try and go out or access things that are going to reactivate the dopamine circuitry. And all it does is drive them further and further and longer and longer into that trough. What's needed is a period of waiting, of non-indulgence in any of these excesses that allows them to return to baseline. We know this from Drugs of abuse, it takes more and more drug to try and get what turns out to be less and less of a high. Most all addiction, most all compulsive behavior can be cured essentially through a period of abstinence lasting somewhere between thirty and sixty days, which to somebody

• 8:50Speaker 00

  who's highly motivated to seek that thing or do that thing, sounds like an absolute horror. But that is highly effective. So for some people, it's work and stimulants, you know, a number of people taking Adderall and work, work, work, work, work. I hear from these people all the time. Typically, they are from the tech and finance world. They're like, why am I burnt out? Well, you've been blasting these catecholamine-regulated circuits for years. You need to just accept you're gonna feel a little low for a week, then you're gonna feel a little less low, then you're gonna come back to baseline. And then, and only then, can you really get back into like full forward center of mass. But at that point, you can introduce, you know, I do think there is a clinical use case for certain ADHD meds, which are amphetamine.

• 9:35Speaker 00

  There are certain people that need those meds. Other people have driven themselves into this dopamine trough. And so they're seeking out anything and everything to get them out of that trough, when really what they need to do is stay away from all that stuff and just wait. Just wait.

• 9:49Steven Bartlett?

  Go on holiday or something.

• 9:51Speaker 00

  Go on holiday, try and find reward in smaller things. Um, you know, this is why dogs are wonderful in simpler things. And if that sounds heavy and dull to you, chances are you're a bit in the dopamine uh loop. Um, I've been in these loops before. They're hard to exit, but once you exit them, you look back on them, you go, what was I thinking? Well, you were in a different state. You're kind of a different animal when you're in pursuit.

• 10:18Steven Bartlett?

  I think this is so unbelievably important because it really helps people to understand why they do what they do. And before you're doing a research on you coming here today and before understanding some of this stuff, I thought dopamine was I don't know, it was this thing that came in these hits, maybe. And if I did something, I got ahead of it, then I returned to baseline. If I did something again stimulating, I'd got ahead of it, then I returned to baseline. But what actually is happening is I'm doing something that's stimulating in some way. I'm getting this huge peak, then I'm crashing below baseline for a while. And when I'm below baseline, I'm, that's when I'm most likely to want to do something that's going to give me a hit again.

• 10:53Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 10:54Steven Bartlett?

  And when I saw that, it reminded me of the CGI monitor, the continuous glucose monitor that I wore, because it was a very similar pattern. If I had a lot of sugar, I had a big peak, then I crashed below my baseline.

• 11:05Speaker 00

  Right, that's a great observation. It's the perfect analogy, perfect analogy, because these regulatory systems are all about trying to reg, maintain homeostasis. We all hear about, we learn about homeostasis, like the desire for balance. The, the, the human body and human physiology is actually geared more towards something called allostasis, which involves kind of stress modulation. But without getting into too many details, you know, these are dynamic systems, meaning brain systems that are designed to allow us to overcome challenges if need be, right? This is why I always push back on the idea that, you know, stress crashes your immune system. You know what crashes your immune system? Being very, very stressed, working a lot, a lot, caretaking for someone else, and then stopping. You always get sick when you stop.

• 11:46Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, yeah.

• 11:47Speaker 00

  Why? Because actually, stress activates the immune system. Makes sense that it would do that evolutionarily, right? And then when we rest, boom, our immune system kind of relaxes a little bit, and then we succumb to that, that, you know, the bacteria or virus. So what does it mean? It means that we should probably learn to modulate. It's like driving a car. Anytime we feel that we're headed toward or in a peak state, we should probably kind of like lean back off that state just a tiny bit, just a tiny bit, especially if that peak state is coming by way of pharmacology or some extreme circumstance. Just back off a little bit, maybe a lot, okay? So when we do that, we learn to master the transition states between these, what I'm

• 12:29Speaker 00

  referring to as forward center of mass, flat footed or back on my heels. It's a term I learned from a former Navy SEAL operator. He said, with anything in life, you can either be back on your heels, like really challenged, flat footed, kind of like calm and forward, or forward center of mass, like full tilt. I think most people would do very well to learn to master the transition states between waking and going to sleep, right? Many people can't fall asleep. Many people just can't turn it off. You can learn how to do that by doing things like non-sleep deep rest, some long exhale breathing. Simple, self-directed, zero-cost tools that help adjust your autonomic nervous system to be more what we call parasympathetic, more rest and digest. Just long exhales. Might not work the first time, but over time, these become very effective tools

• 13:14Speaker 00

  to self-direct the shift from forward center of mass to flat footage, just kind of laying back, back on your heels. And there you go, you're off to sleep. When you wake up in the morning, some people are just depleted. Maybe you didn't sleep enough, but learning to get forward center of mass shouldn't require, you know, excess caffeine and stimulants and super loud music and, you know, a shocking text or email. Ideally, you can transition pretty quickly into being forward center of mass, but not full-tilt forward center of mass. And why do I say this? I think for anyone who seeks to be successful in any domain, academics, business, creative endeavors, whatever, if you want to have a long arc life and a long arc career, you really strive to control these transition states.

• 13:58Speaker 00

  And when I say control, all it really takes is paying attention to them and paying attention to the fact that, yes, some people just have inherently more energy. They can do every single workout at max output, then shower. They're talking in the gym, then they're off to the... Some people are like that. Some people, like myself, if I give 100% to something in the morning, by the afternoon, I'm a little bit depleted. So I require a 10 or 20-minute non-sleep deep rest or a nap or just some quiet, long exhale breathing, maybe a little bit of caffeine, which I'm drinking now. I mean, there's nothing wrong with healthy stimulants, provided they're consumed in moderation. Maybe an energy drink, those can be great too, for some people. And then, you know, really going like full-tilt, focusing one's attention.

• 14:40Speaker 00

  And then afterwards, taking a few moments, just moments, to downshift. I think we hear so much about the power of meditation or non-sleep deep rest or ice baths. What do cold plunges and cold showers do? They stimulate the release of what? The catecholamines, dopamine, epinephrine, norepinephrine, long-duration release. That's why it's useful, in my opinion. For all the debate about deliberate cold exposure, does it increase metabolism, does it not? The answer seems to be probably not much. But it's absolutely clear that it causes a huge increase in adrenaline, dopamine, and norepinephrine that are very long lasting. And that makes you feel great, especially when you get out of the cold. And I think that's the value of it. It also saves you on your heating bill. Like, you don't have to have a cold plunge. You take a cold shower.

• 15:24Speaker 00

  Nobody likes it, but the point is you get out and you feel different. It's a state shift. So that's great, but you don't want to do it to excess. Because then, you know, for instance, people always say, "How long should I go in the cold plunge or cold shower?" And I say, "Do it the minimum amount so that you get the effect that you're seeking, which is to be more alert and motivated." I have a friend, he did 30 minutes, for some reason naked. He said, "I did 30 minutes naked in the cold plunge, and then I got sick and I'm feeling really low." And I'm like, "'Cause you did 30 minutes." I mean, I don't know about the naked part, what that had to do with it. But he had to throw that in there, he's an extreme guy. And I said, "How about one minute? How about 30 seconds? How about, don't even pay attention to the time. Just get in and stay in as long as, until you want to get out,

• 16:09Speaker 00

  and then push through that barrier and then get out." That might be a minute, might be three minutes. You know, protect yourself, be safe, but just learn to overcome some challenge and then get out. You know, we have this fixation that more is better. And more is not better. You want the minimal effective dose, maybe a little bit more because we don't know where minimal is. People say, "How many sets in the gym?" Is it, you know, now it's like all about the volume hypertrophy? Or like, "I've always fairly low recovery quotient." So for me, I like to do a couple of warmups, a few hard sets, two or three hard sets, another exercise, two or three hard sets. That's it for that muscle group, move on. People always say, "Well, volume is worse." Okay, great, but when I do 16 to 20 sets per week per muscle group, I'll tell you, I'm depleted. It doesn't work for me.

• 16:54Speaker 00

  And I sort of, well, just be honest, I kind of chuckle at the exercise scientists who say, "Well, this is the way it is in this study." Great, that's not how it works for me. And even though I'm a scientist and I trust data, I also trust my own experience. And no one's gonna tell me that it's placebo because it's what's worked for me. So I think that you have to find what your capabilities are. And I do think, if you look at dog breeds, of which I'm obsessed by, if you go to a dog show, which everyone should go to a dog show once, but don't watch the show. Go behind the show where you see all the different dog breeds. What you'll see is what I saw the first time I did that. You have dogs where they're wagging their tail all the time. They're super excited, they're alert, you can see their eyes, right? They're just bright eyed. You can see the Great Danes.

• 17:39Speaker 00

  They're super still. And then my favorite breed, and the reason I own them, is the Bulldog. The essence of economy of effort. They don't even lift their head off the ground. You walk over, you pet them, they'll like look up at you, and they might wink. Very still animals. Very powerful, but very still animals. Now, I'm not wired like that, as you're probably getting the impression. I have a little bit more spontaneous movement, et cetera. So I need a lot of mental and physical stimulation in order to be happy. In order to feel fulfilled. So for me, there was a lot of work, and I still do a lot of work, in order to learn how to downshift. Take it down, become a good sleeper, become a good resetter. Reset myself during the middle of the day with things like non-sleep deep rest, which for me has been one of the most powerful tools.

• 18:21Speaker 00

  Or long exhale breathing to just bring myself down. Other people, they tend to have a little bit less energy than life demands of them. So they need to do a bit more cold shower, a little bit more caffeine. But then, those people probably need a little bit more rest. They're like the Bulldogs of life. I think even though we're all the same species, just like dogs, there's a lot of variation there. So you have to know thyself, as the Oracle said. Understanding a little bit about the catecholamines. Understanding that certain things like exercise, deliberate cold exposure, stimulants like caffeine, and prescription drugs like Adderall, et cetera, powerfully cause the release of these catecholamines, dopamine, epinephrine, and norepinephrine, leading to big increases in energy and focus. But then, always, always, always, there's a cost.

• 19:05Speaker 00

  A trough that follows. Accept that. Relax through it. Then return to baseline and then go forward. Or avoid those things altogether. I'm not telling people what to do. Obviously, the prescription drug thing in particular can be problematic for some people, even addictive. And certainly, I'm not a fan of drugs of abuse, like cocaine, amphetamine. Absolutely categorically, never done them, never will.

• 19:29Speaker 00

  And then other people who tend to veer toward, you know, being hyperactivated, a lot of spontaneous movement. These people tend to be a little bit thinner, a little bit leaner, or just have a ton of natural energy. These people should really learn to incorporate more kind of, what I would call calming and relaxing practices. Maybe a bit more sauna than cold plunge. Maybe don't crank the sauna to 220. You know, I find myself doing that. I'm like, just relax, like enjoy the sauna. And so I think the key to a good life and a productive life is again, to learn to master the transition states, understand some of the biology and to really know yourself, not just your natural tendency, more bulldog-like versus, you know, I don't know, pit bulls always have their tail going, a lot of spontaneous movement.

• 20:14Speaker 00

  There are other breeds as well. But also know that on any given day, you may be more or less rested. You might be more or less depleted from life experience and kind of recognize where you're at and figure out what's optimal for that day. In fact, I forget who the guy is. He's on Instagram and there are a lot of self-help account. Then there are a lot of self-help accounts out there. But one of the best things that I've heard recently, and I try to incorporate it into my life. In fact, it's in my notebook is when I wake up in the morning, I sort of take stock of where I am in terms of how rested I am. I certainly take stock of what I need to do that day. And then I ask, what's something that I can do to make my life that day and the life of others better?

• 20:58Speaker 00

  Sometimes that means rest a little bit more. Sometimes that means push a little bit more. Sometimes that means call a relative that you haven't spoken to. But thinking about how to make things better on the time scale of a day for oneself and for others, I think is what's manageable and it's what's realistic. And it takes this whole concept of protocols and biohacking and prescription drugs and supplements and workouts. And it, and it brings a real world perspective to it. So I think we're living in the, in the time of kind of almost avatars of these different things. Like I think about David Goggins, who I know well, well, from the perspective of coworker, right? Where I consider him a friend, but we've never hung out outside of the work context. But I first met David back in 2016. And I'll tell you, he's always that way.

• 21:43Speaker 00

  At least when I've interacted with him, he's. Always been, you know, forward center of mass. It was late in the day on a work. This was a thing in Silicon Valley. It was down in San Jose, Santa Clara, San Jose area. And I believe it was 2016 and we had been working all day in this part of this consult for this company. And in the afternoon, you know, there was like, do we take a break? Do we push? He's like, no, we push. We're gonna do this. And I thought, whoa, like this guy's intense. And he was changing because he was gonna run to the airport, but not run to the airport in an Uber or drive to the airport. He meant run to the airport. And he did. So, you know, he's forward center of mass. He clearly has the energy or he's found the energy.

• 22:25Steven Bartlett?

  Can you train that? Can you raise your sort of baseline dopamine level? Or are they two separate questions?

• 22:33Speaker 00

  It's a great question. I don't know that we have the answer. I think you can if you become more economical about whatever dopamine or other neurochemicals you happen to harbor inside. We know there's a lot of genetic and individual variation to these things. You know, there's a joke among parents, right? Like how they come out is how they stay. Like the mellow kid, the mellow baby that didn't cry much. The happy baby remains the happy person. There are circumstances that can alter that versus the fussy baby that's always fussy. As even as an adult, you know, parents talk this way, but parents say all sorts of things. But, you know, I know people, for instance, like Rick Rubin, for instance, who is very high energy, but very calm. It's part of Rick's magic.

• 23:18Speaker 00

  He knows how to regulate and control his energy. He has this uncanny capacity to get near things, in particular, art, music, and to experience them, really feel them, but not get absorbed by it. Not feel, at least to my, my knowledge, depleted by it. Some people get kind of absorbed by things and then depleted.

• 23:39Steven Bartlett?

  Is this like the introvert extrovert conversation as well? Because two people can be in the same room and I mean, I'm, I consider myself to be a bit of an extrovert. Sorry, introvert. Where if I stand in a room for two, three hours doing small talk, I, I, the way I describe it's like my brain feels fried. Whereas my assistant, Sophie, it's like you've poured fuel into her.

• 23:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm similar to you and I have an ex-girlfriend who loved parties. She would just get so much energy from parties. And I like certain parties, but I like the, the small conversation I might have at a party is, um, so that resonates with me. I think we can shift. Well, to answer the introvert extrovert question, I do think that some people get energy from social interactions, other people less so. But I know people who are quite quiet, who like social interactions. They're just more an observer in those interactions as opposed to a participant. The introvert extrovert thing also, at least my understanding of the science is that it depends a bit on how quickly you fill up with social engagement. Like, I like a good party, but after a couple hours, I'm like, done.

• 24:43Speaker 00

  You know, and other people, they can just go, go, go, go, go. They get more energy from it. I think, you know, we think of Goggins as kind of an iconic example, because he is, of somebody who is capable of pushing himself regardless of what the internal narratives might be. That's my sense, having spoken to him about it on my podcast and observed him on social media and other podcasts. Some people, like Jocko Willink, embody the, don't even think about it. You do it because it's 4:30 in the morning, and at 4:30 in the morning, you work out. Like, don't think, do. Whereas when I think of David, I think of many things, but in particular, about overcoming the voice in the mind that's trying to pull you down and defeating that.

• 25:25Speaker 00

  In fact, having multiple representations of self in the brain, which is a fascinating thing unto itself. And then when I think about Rick, I think, you know, Rick is iconic in my mind for his sense of creativity, his ability to sense what is truly new and unique. He has incredible taste, right? To really be able to sense like, this is new and different and exciting. And he seems to understand, without trying to seek what people are going to like, what people inevitably love. So, that's his, one of his many superpowers. And everyone has their superpower. Those are just so extremes. I think of Lex Friedman as somebody who is so thoughtful.

• 26:10Speaker 00

  And I mean, I don't think people really understand just how hard Lex thinks about the tragedies of the world, the darkness in the world, but also the love that's in the world. I mean, he really like hyper affiliates with what's happening in his mind. And he's able to really like absorb himself in that. And you can feel like his, his like he gets right up next to the fire, like right up next to these things. And I think he represents a kind of iconic example of an explorer who will look anywhere, even if people are going to give him a hard time for it. But I think mostly people celebrate him for it. Mm hmm. You know, so I think, you know, different people have different lenses on life and

• 26:52Speaker 00

  different capacities. I think if one wants to increase their baseline level of dopamine, I think it's important to regulate those peaks and troughs. I'm not a believer in like never having peaks in dopamine. A great wedding party, like I've been to some weddings where we just like partied all night, or great concerts. I'm actually a huge fan. It's kind of a, a genre of music I don't know much about, but I've always loved that band, James. Do you know the band? We Are James? No. Oh, it's so good. Okay, I'm gonna lose punk points for saying this, but best live shows ever. Just the best live shows I've ever seen. And I know there are, and I, and I know there are a lot of different ideas about best live shows based on genres of

• 27:33Speaker 00

  music. I just, it's like the best party you've ever been to. And I get a lift in energy that lasts two, three days from that. I don't consume any substances at those shows. They happen very seldom, but when I've gone for two or three days, I feel like a changed person. It's a marked shift in neurochemical state. And I don't feel a trough afterwards. So I want to be very clear. There are certain things, like celebrations, concerts, they seem to give us these big surges in neurochemicals, but they don't leave us depleted. And I'm very intrigued by these experiences. Because when I look to some examples, I have some friends who've been very successful in the tech sector and finance sector. They make

• 28:15Speaker 00

  a lot of money. And I always worry about them afterwards. Inevitably, they end up depressed, not knowing what they want to do. So I always encourage them to keep working. In fact, the happiest people in tech and finance are the ones that keep working even after they get rich. So the people I see who are very happy are the people who Take stock of their natural levels of energy, curiosity, motivation. You know, we could say dopamine, but that's kind of a surrogate for a bunch of other things. And it's incomplete, right? There are other chemicals involved, but for sake of conversation, we could say dopamine, catecholamines, epinephrine. And you sort of know what they're capable of on a consistent basis. I think one of the best pieces of advice that I ever got was from a neurologist by the name of Bob Knight when I was a graduate student.

• 28:59Speaker 00

  He said, figure out how much work you can do over the course of the next four to five years on a consistent basis, because it's going to change as you get older. Might not even go down. So for instance, I know that I can work a good, solid 12 hours a day. That's me, 12 hours a day, five, maybe six days a week, but I like one full day off per week. I just like that. Typically, it's Sunday for me. I'll do some exercise and some other things, but if I try and go 15 hours a day or 12 hours a day, seven days a week, I'm going to run aground. For other people, they need to work less. And now some people will say, okay, but do you have kids and this and that? I'm not saying what work means. It could be career, it could be family, both.

• 29:43Speaker 00

  But I'm not somebody who has an infinite amount of energy, but I have a lot of energy. If you have less energy, you can do things like try and get great sleep, try and eat as well as you possibly can. You may have to do more to get more energy, but you sort of have to accept your own kind of baseline state. And I think, I certainly know many people who are like mellower, calmer, have quote unquote, less energy. They're just more efficient with that energy. They place it correctly. They're not wasting their energy. I know people that can scroll Instagram all the time, talk about what's going on on Twitter, watch three podcasts, program and do a million things. I'm like, they're fine. So I think we have to know where our groove is and that we can deviate from that about

• 30:27Speaker 00

  15 to 20%, but anything more extreme than that, we're going to end up in trouble.

• 30:32Steven Bartlett?

  I think a lot of the reason why people are curious about dopamine is because ultimately they want to be more productive or effective at some goal they have in their life. So it might be building a business, it could be some, it could be a podcast, whatever. So taking everything you know about dopamine and how it works, if you were giving me advice on how I could be a better entrepreneur, podcaster, whatever.

• 30:53Steven Bartlett?

  The first thing I got from you was really about this idea of transitioning between states and also allowing time for my reserves to replenish after a high dopamine activity. Is there anything else that I should be thinking about?

• 31:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, so we could operationalize this in a very clear way. Get enough sleep for you. For some people, it's six hours. For some people, it's eight hours. I'd like to dispel the myth, even though my friend Matt Walker will probably get upset at me for saying this. Not everyone needs eight or nine hours of sleep. Okay, I got six last night. Okay, I actually went to bed at midnight last night. Oh, excuse me, I got six hours and 45 minutes last night. I went to bed at midnight, which is kind of late for me. Woke up at 6:45. But get enough sleep. If you wake up in the morning and you can't get more sleep, for whatever reason, can't fall back asleep or you have to get out of bed. If you do not feel rested, I recommend doing a 10 or 20 minute non-sleep deep rest or yoga nidra protocol.

• 31:46Speaker 00

  They are available zero cost on YouTube. You could put NSDR, my name, if you want to listen to me do one. You could put NSDR, Kelly Boyes does wonderful yoga nidras. She has a very pleasant voice if you prefer a female voice. There's some wonderful yoga nidras by a woman named Kamini Desai. Anyway, these are all zero cost scripts that are available on YouTube.

• 32:05Steven Bartlett?

  What is that?

• 32:06Speaker 00

  So, so non-sleep deep rest.

• 32:09Steven Bartlett?

  Because you did one today. You did one today.

• 32:11Speaker 00

  I did one today on the way here.

• 32:12Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 32:12Speaker 00

  Yeah. Here's what we know it does. Replenishes baseline levels of dopamine in the basal ganglia. Prepares you for action, both mental and physical action. Can indeed help offset some of the sleep that maybe you didn't get, but you needed. We know that the brain goes into a kind of pseudo-sleep in this state. And there's also some evidence that yoga nidra and similar practices can improve rates of learning. Okay, so that's sort of the benefits. What is it? It involves what most people will call meditation, but it's different than meditation. You lie down, you could do it seated as well, but you lie down, eyes closed, and you do long exhale breathing. When we exhale, we actually slow our heart rate down. I could talk about how this is.

• 32:56Speaker 00

  This is through respiratory sinus arrhythmia. This is a relationship between the vagus nerve and the beating of the heart. But in any case, when we inhale, our heart actually speeds up. It's beat slightly. And when we exhale, it slows down. It's beat slightly. So it involves a lot of long exhale breathing. It involves a body scan where you deliberately relax different aspects of your body. So your first, your feet, then your legs, then your hands. It's sort of a body scan of sorts with long exhale breathing. And it takes you into a state that's pseudo sleep. You're somewhere between sleep and awake. Now, the beauty of NSDR and yoga nidra is that part of the instruction at the beginning is to stay awake. Now, if you fall asleep, it's okay.

• 33:39Speaker 00

  Just make sure you set an alarm if you have to go to work or do something else. But by staying awake while being very relaxed, it seems that the nervous system can continue to stay in a sleep-like state enough that you replenish some of these neurochemicals that prepare you for cognitive and physical action. Now, there are 10-minute NSDRs, there are 20-minute NSDRs, there are even hour-long yoga nidras and things of that sort. So it depends on how much time you have before you need to get up. So if you sleep well the night before, you wake up after six, eight hours and you're ready to go, boom, go. But if you're not, I highly recommend doing a 10, 20, or 30-minute NSDR practice. You will find that you will be far more rested.

• 34:22Speaker 00

  You will feel far more mentally and physically vigorous when you emerge from that. It's remarkable. And Matt Walker's laboratory and I are gearing up to do some studies on this to figure out exactly what's happening. Is the brain really going into sleep? Or is it something entirely different? We don't quite know yet. In any event, it most certainly works. And soon we'll know the exact mechanism in the brain. But this dopamine, but this re-upping of dopamine is very, very clear from the existing studies. So what are you doing there? You're essentially filling the reservoir for the day of activities. Okay. Then I recommend hydration, which has a profound effect on energy levels. So 16 to 32 ounces of water.

• 35:05Speaker 00

  People debate drink out of plastic or don't drink out of plastic. Do you have to purify your water, et cetera? You know, listen, it depends on budget and interest and level of paranoia. I drink a filtered water. I tend to drink out of ceramic or glass, but I am somebody who will occasionally drink out of a plastic water bottle. I'm, I'm not neurotic about that sort of thing, but look, if you are, fine. And we could all do well to limit the amount of plastic waste in the oceans. So there you go. Hydrate. Then some people like myself do very well to get some exercise and sunlight, ideally simultaneously, but certainly get some sunlight and exercise prior to caffeine. Some people do, some people don't. Okay.

• 35:48Speaker 00

  I also understand and totally support people who just want their coffee or tea first thing in the morning. There's no rule that says that you can't do that. But for me, what I would do is I'd get up, use the restroom if you need to, hydrate, and then get some bright light in your eyes, ideally from sunlight first thing in the morning. Why? Well, there's a whole story about circadian biology here that I could tell you, but I've done that many times before. Suffice to say that getting bright light, ideally from sunlight in your eyes, even through cloud cover, so if you're in the UK, even through cloud cover, increases the amount of cortisol release in your brain and body markedly. That is a good, healthy increase in cortisol that is associated with the transition to waking up.

• 36:31Speaker 00

  So we know that bright light in the morning, especially from sunlight, increases daytime mood, focus and alertness, and it will improve your sleep later that night.