Ivy Ross (Google’s VP of hardware design) and Rishi Chandra (Google’s VP of home and Nest)

Google's Ivy Ross and Rishi Chandra discuss the evolving and increasingly human design language of Google products, the future of devices like the Home Hub in a world that demands privacy, and — yes — the infamous Pixel 3 notch. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Nilay Patel?

  This episode of The Vergecast was brought to you by Hilton. Restaurant or room service, what would the boss do? Either way, the boss would choose Hilton Hotels and Resorts to get down to business and a little pleasure. Check out Hilton Hotels and Resorts and travel like the boss. Hey, everybody. It's Nai from The Vergecast. This week on the interview episode, I am very excited about this. We have Ivy Ross, who is Google's VP of Design, All-Hardware Design, and Rishi Chandra, who's the VP of Home in Nest. So, Google just had a big event. They put out the Home Hub, the new Pixel phones, the Pixel Slate. I talked to Ivy about Google's design language, how it's evolved, where she wants it to go, how she wants it to be more human. We did talk about the notch just a little bit, had to do it. And then Ivy had to go, and Rishi and I hung out. We talked about the Home Hub, how it works, privacy issues, what platforms he's running,

• 0:44Nilay Patel?

  the future of these devices in the home, where he thinks it's all going. A super interesting conversation. I've known Rishi for a long time, so that was really fun. Ivy is a true delight, so smart. I think you're really gonna like this. It's kind of in the weeds, but it's a good time. Check it out. Okay, I'm here with Ivy Ross, who is VP of Hardware Design at Google, and Rishi Chandra, who's VP of Home in Nest. I'm super excited you both are here. Welcome.

• 1:09Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:10Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:10Nilay Patel?

  I want to talk to both of you about a lot of things. Rishi, I'm just gonna tell you right now, we're gonna have a long conversation about Google Cast versus Android Things, which I know you're gonna enjoy so much. Google just had an event. You announced a bunch of hardware products. And Ivy, I want to start with you, because the design of Google products, which you oversee, has matured so rapidly over the course of the past two or three years. And I really want to get a sense of where you picked it up as you took over that group, where you think you are, and where you think you're going. So, just give me a quick history. How did you come to Google, and how did you end up in charge of all of hardware design?

• 1:48Speaker 02

  I started when the hardware group was formed. So, all of last year's launches and this year's launches was under my watch, so to speak. So, when the hardware group was formed and Rick came on, that is when I got the role to be in charge of design, and my team and I created a design language. For Google product, which didn't really exist. I mean, previously, there have been some hardware products, but they were designed as one offs, not with the vision of an entire collection of products.

• 2:21Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, that seems like the most Google thing, right? Previously, Google is known for doing lots of different things at once. Different teams get to be creative and run off and do their thing. And the design org kind of felt that way. Have you actively tried to bring that into a more cohesive whole?

• 2:37Speaker 02

  Oh, for sure. So now all of, I mean, when this division started, anyone in their title who had UX or ID for anything related to hardware, joined my team. And then we added from the outside. So it was very much intentional that we come up with a design language. You know, now that we want to be offering Google hardware for many years to come, across many categories, one needs to have a design language that is informed by what I believe is our place of differentiation in the market. And so that was one of the first things that we, as a team, really thought about is, what

• 3:20Speaker 02

  should it look and feel like when you hold Google in your hands?

• 3:23Nilay Patel?

  So how big is that portfolio? Is it phones and, you know, the new Pixel Slate and the Home Hub and that's it? Or is it all the new Nest stuff? Now that Nest is part of Google, is it self-driving cars? Is it expansive? Is it?

• 3:37Speaker 02

  No, it's, you know, it's phones, it's Pixel Slate, it's all of the home products. Going forward, now that it's come into be part of Google, just as Rishi has Nest and Home on the product side, we will be one united design team. And then anything going forward, you know, we had some VR. Which was done under my watch as well.

• 4:02Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, so that's a pretty expansive portfolio. And you said, what is it like to hold Google in your hands? So what unites that entire portfolio for you? What are the kind of ideals you're pushing forward?

• 4:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, so we really use three words to inform that design language. Human, optimistic, and bold. And that may sound simple, but it came from a long exercise of a cross-functional team representing marketing, the product folks, design, really looking at what is uniquely Google and how might that come alive in hardware? And then what does that design language look like that delivers on these words? So, human, you know, I think we have always been for everybody and are much more accessible. Optimistic, you know, comes from our sense of fun.

• 4:54Speaker 02

  I mean, what other brand changes their logo every day on the browser? And then bold, because we do bold things as a company, I mean, i.e. driverless cars. And so, you know, we felt those are three elements of our DNA that we wanted to make sure came through in our hardware design language.

• 5:13Nilay Patel?

  And do you think that's, does that start from the design of the actual hardware itself, the technology inside of it? Or is that you saying we're going to do pops of color and fun fabrics at the end?

• 5:23Speaker 02

  Well, so when I say design language, I think as a group, and you know, my team does the industrial design, color materials, finishing, we work collaboratively with the PMs and the engineers. And the PMs really come up with what the product function will be. And then our job is to work together to bring that to life through the physical product. So it is materials, color, finish, form, interactions. That's what my team is responsible for. But I think there are certain things for sure that overlap. I mean, the fact that we create our hardware to be helpful to people, I would say, is definitely a human trait.

• 6:08Speaker 02

  They're very relatable. They're not isolated. So that's something I think is very much on the entire hardware division's mind. Is how, you know, we have a history of delivering helpful software. And for us, you know, we want to be able to deliver the best hardware that leverages our software AI. But at the end of the day, it's helpful because if it's not helpful to us humans, it won't stay around.

• 6:33Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, and I think, you know, I think a good example of that, you know, the new Pixel phones have the selfie camera on the front and the wide angle, which actually solves a constructive need, which I think is, as I've shown the phone to people, is that's the thing that they're most worried about, which is kind of remarkable.

• 6:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, it's a small thing, but it's really fun. And you're right, that's a great example of seeing a problem that exists out in the wild and being able to solve it.

• 6:58Nilay Patel?

  Okay, so that was a setup to, the big phone has a really large notch in the front. So was that shown to you? Was that you were in a meeting and everyone was like, how are we going to integrate all this stuff and make the screen extend? And, you know, you saw a bunch of mockups. Was that you or was that something that you had to deal with as you were designing the rest of the phone's design?

• 7:18Speaker 02

  It is always a trade off. And that's what design does. It's a trade off between the function that we all align on, we want the phone to be able to deliver, and then design working within those boundaries to solve problems as best as possible. So it is not, it's something that we knew from the beginning and worked through. We knew from the beginning in terms of what, why the cameras, why the front speakers, and then said, you know, let's solve it as best we can.

• 7:53Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. So when you were looking at sort of options for that, what were the things that led you to this particular design?

• 7:59Speaker 02

  You mean the fact that there is a notch? Well, the fact that there is a notch was to accommodate the things that we wanted to fit in there, i.e. the front facing cameras, and then really thought about, is there enough room on either side of that notch that can provide useful screen space to deliver some software? Otherwise, we wouldn't do the notch, you know, we would just have a bigger forehead. But it became clear that actually there was enough useful space on either side of the notch, and especially for someone that has a bigger phone. Wants that space to be utilized as much as possible.

• 8:42Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, I mean, that's the answer that we're hearing from everyone. I just, having somebody who's actually designed a phone, being able to ask it directly is a unique moment. So I was eager to ask you. So I have another question, which is a little bit more philosophical. As phones get bigger, they become all glass, they get more anonymous, as everybody puts them in a case. Does that affect how you think about designing them? Do you think that, well, everyone's just gonna put this in a case anyway? We might as well just optimize it for that use case? Or are you just not thinking about that at all?

• 9:13Speaker 02

  No, we think about, you know, what's interesting is we've actually done some research and people, because that would be the easy way out, and we would just do beautiful cases. But it's really interesting, because there's an emotional choice. Because we even tested this idea of, you know, do you do one color phone? And a whole lot more cases, because you cover it anyway. But there is an emotional initial moment when you're picking your phone to literally say, oh, I want this color versus that color, even knowing that you're going to cover it. And so people go through great lengths to get the color they want. So it's not that simple. It's something, it's fascinating to me, but it's even knowing that underneath that case, you know, it's a different color.

• 9:57Speaker 02

  And it really is at that initial moment of reacting to the phone that people still want choice.

• 10:05Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, I think that's super interesting, because I never see people with that cases anymore. And I'm always curious if you guys think about that. If, you know, we have to have X many colors because we know that will drive a sale versus we could just have cases.

• 10:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, we thought about it, and it really, it takes the emotion out of it.

• 10:24Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. What's up with it?

• 10:25Speaker 02

  And there are some people, especially, especially here, a lot of us walk around without cases, because we love the way the phones look so much.

• 10:32Nilay Patel?

  Well, you have access to more of them if you drop one, I think. It's probably the fix in, because that's why I have a case is I'm clumsy. I know I'm going to drop this thing, so I do.

• 10:41Speaker 02

  Well, have you seen, we also make nice cases.

• 10:43Nilay Patel?

  I do have one of your cases on my pixel right now. That's great. Tell me about these color names, and especially not pink, which seems like you want to avoid saying pink for some reason. It's a beautiful color. Why go with not pink?

• 10:56Speaker 02

  Well, the truth is, it really isn't pink. I mean, in fact, you know, internally among the designers, we were calling it sand or flesh tone. I mean, really, pink has a lot more red in it. So what we love about it is it's this almost beautiful new neutral color that has just a hint of the pink tone. And, you know, again, going back to the fact that we're a fun and optimistic brand, I mean, calling it not pink to let everyone know that it really isn't a pure pink. But if you want to live dangerously, it's got a little bit of that.

• 11:31Nilay Patel?

  How do you pick color names? Do you all sit around a room with a whiteboard and tell jokes until you land on them? Or do you just decide one day in your car? Like, how does that go?

• 11:39Speaker 02

  No, the marketing department actually picks the official names. So we designers have our own names when we are in development, but then marketing picks the color names, which I actually love. And I think, you know, I don't know, I've seen a lot of press and some bloggers that are playing with that idea now that, you know, they're unpacking it and going, not pink. Wow, it looks good with my pink t-shirt, but it's not quite pink, but it looks good with. And so it's really, I think, achieved what what marketing had hoped for is be playful with it. And we didn't want to turn off. I mean, the truth is, we did color testing, a lot of guys like that color.

• 12:20Speaker 01

  So what I got, I got that one.

• 12:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:23Nilay Patel?

  Well, you know, I love the orange button, and I will literally chase the orange button to wherever it takes me.

• 12:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, because Rishi just took off his case.

• 12:33Nilay Patel?

  Oh, it was in a case?

• 12:34Speaker 02

  It's like taking off his clothes and we saw everything and he's got a not pink phone.

• 12:38Nilay Patel?

  Gotcha.

• 12:38Speaker 02

  But so, you know, so it was also a fun thing, like, you know, if we called it pink, I mean, I don't buy into pink is for girls and blue is for boys. I absolutely don't. But, you know, with the stereotype, I think if we had listed it as a pink phone, guys may not have even looked at it. But calling it not pink gives you a second chance.

• 12:54Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. Here's my sort of bridge question between the two of you. You know, we've got these phones, they're getting bigger, they're in our hands, they're with us all the time, they're a demanding piece of technology in your life. You have to care for them, you have to charge them. And then there's what's happening in the home. It's getting more and more subsumed into other devices that are plugged in all the time. You don't have to worry about them. Eventually, we're just gonna have microphones hidden everywhere, right? How do you think about home products, the future of their design? Is it, is it gonna recede or are they gonna become more like furniture? Are you gonna put yet more fabrics on them?

• 13:29Speaker 02

  Oh, I think our, you know, our vision is, I think when technology first arrives, it, it comes out kind of shouting and beating its chest in big, black boxes. And then, once us humans see the value in it, and it's here to stay, which I think it is, it's really about wanting to live with it in our environment. And it doesn't need to be a big, black box. It needs to fit in with your interior. And so, the idea of doing fabric, which also has a function in terms of sound and light, made a lot of sense to us in that, especially with our speakers, you know, you wanna be able to place it in many different rooms in your home, and people want, have

• 14:12Speaker 02

  different colors. And the, the fabric makes it feel like, it makes it feel like part of the furniture of your living room as opposed to this piece of technology. So I think that was intentional. And I think it is true, the more technology we have in our home, the more we're going to want it to blend in versus standing out.

• 14:33Speaker 01

  Two more points on this that I think are really interesting of how our, our team really does design. One is it's, it's, I think fabric is obviously the expression of the, of the products today, but I think the team does a great job of looking all types of materials that are in the home. It's not saying that everything has to be fabric. I think fabric is a very popular type of material, but there's so many different types of materials that exist in the home today that we just want to make them feel naturally that they complements other, other type of materials. And so, you know, we're doing a lot of explorations about what are other types of materials that actually just make sense and feel really natural in everything we do. The second piece that I thought was a really strong kind of opinionated point of view that Google came out with was you'll see actually our products are not heavily branded.

• 15:15Speaker 01

  We intentionally did not put like a big logo, like you'll see consumer electronics is very, very strong about putting a logo on everything. But when you think of furniture, that's not the design essence of how furniture works. There's not logos all over your furniture that you have.

• 15:29Speaker 02

  Nor accessories like vases. I mean, that's why I think of these things as accessories to your home.

• 15:34Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 15:34Speaker 02

  And you would never want to put something with a logo out there.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  And it's very intentional, right? It's, it's about really feeling like it's, it's a natural part of the home. And I think it was a great design expression that, that we've put into every one of our products, and I think it's something we want to keep doing. But again, it's, it's just a different statement, I think we're trying to make with our design center is that it is about being respectful of the home.

• 15:55Speaker 02

  And also the shapes. I mean, the shapes being softer and more natural, I think also helps fit into the warmth of your home.

• 16:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. So there's a lot of intentionality in everything that, that was put in place in front of all the products.

• 16:09Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. How do you think about unifying? You've got a, a big portfolio again. How do you think about unifying what you've got in your portfolio with, you know, being more human and helpful and rounded shapes? Like, will we just see more and more generations of that from, say, Nest and the, I don't know, the Chromecast team in the home? Is that, is that all going to start to look the same over time or are they going to branch out?

• 16:30Speaker 02

  Well, I don't think, in fact, we made a commitment, and I think we did a good job of, you know, we're going to do what's right for each product, but it needs to lather up to a family. And so it's almost when we lay out the products, we say, you know, you could see it came from the same mother, father, in terms of DNA, but you don't know, you know, where it really sat, or who's related to whom. And so there's absolutely kind of these design principles that we believe in that will be part of our DNA going forward. And of course, then, we will evolve over time, as Rishi says, as new materials come on board, new ideas, but with the same principles of wanting to fit in and not stand out, you

• 17:11Speaker 02

  know, wanting to have a little bit of fun and optimism, and trying some bold things. I mean, one of the bold moves in terms of VR piece using fabric instead of plastic, our panda phone last year, you know, that orange button was a bold move. I mean, there were a lot of people in the company that questioned it, and now it's kind of a cool identifier.

• 17:32Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, you should just have them talk to me. All the buttons should be orange. I want to be very clear about this. I love that the most.

• 17:38Speaker 02

  You know, that was the whole reason we developed this design language was so that, because also, we want people to accumulate where it makes sense for them, and different products that will sit in the home together, all from Google. So they need to feel like a family.

• 17:55Nilay Patel?

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• 18:38Nilay Patel?

  It's a huge project, so we have 10 stories on the site. We have a bunch of animated videos that'll go up on the YouTube channel. And most excitingly, we're having those stories read to us on a new podcast feed, the Better Worlds podcast feed. You can check it out. It's 10 stories, positive science fiction, calling it Better Worlds. It's going to go on for the next few months. Check it out.

• 18:57Nilay Patel?

  All right, so Ivy had to step out. Thank you so much to Ivy for joining us. It's just me and Rishi now. You ready, man?

• 19:03Speaker 01

  Let's do it.

• 19:03Nilay Patel?

  Let's talk nitty gritty of platform specifications. No.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  Of course we are.

• 19:07Nilay Patel?

  Let's start bigger. Tell me about the Home Hub. It has maybe the best display Google has ever shipped, in my opinion. The color temperature is super right, the ambient light sensor and the room light sensor. It just looks amazing. How did you make that work in that small? I mean, it's not like a super high-res screen. It just looks great. How did you guys engineer that?

• 19:29Speaker 01

  It's actually just a great example of this AI plus software plus hardware kind of mantra that we have inside of Google, right? The magic of it is not the actual display. Like, your point is actually totally valid of the resolution's not like crazy high resolution. Obviously, the pixels in all these cameras will have much higher displays. And I'm sure there's actually other smart displays that have much higher resolution as well. For us, it was about how does the display fit in your home? And so it's about being thoughtful about, okay, well, what impacts how displays look in your home? Well, lighting is kind of the key thing. Like, the home goes through many different lighting configurations. Over like in the morning, there's a different type of lighting configuration from the evening, from incandescent lighting to obviously when things are turned off. And so that's where we spend our time.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  We really spend our time, how does it feel like it's matching the ambient lighting and color temperature of the room itself? And that's what makes it look amazing. It's not, nothing like specifically magical about the screen. I mean, obviously, we spent time making sure we felt like we had a screen that was flexible enough to make sure that from different viewing angles, it actually looked great. But, you know, we're taking kind of off-the-shelf screen technology, to be quite honest, to Google Home Hub and applying our heuristics and kind of magic of the software around it. So it was, again, most of it's actually just being thoughtful about the environment it's in and making sure that it looks great in those environments. And that's what we delivered. I'm super excited about what we were able to get out the door.

• 20:49Nilay Patel?

  What's the AI piece of that, right? I mean, doing a room light temperature sensor and its screen is pretty... Common, what's the AI component that gets you?

• 20:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, to be honest, actually, in this case, it's mostly software. So it's actually mostly a tuning exercise that we've gone and done around different types of ambient lighting conditions, different placements inside the home, and then matching a variety of different type of color temperatures. And to be honest, one of the examples we used on this, you know, the first exercise we went through was we literally had a product manager take a real photo frame and the Google Home Hub and show the same exact photo on both and say, how do we actually adjust it so it feels like a photo frame? A photo frame looks great in people's houses because it's like an actual photo and actually is how you actually, you're mentally expecting a photo to look. And so that was kind of the first exercise we went through. And obviously, we did a whole bunch of iterations on top of that.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  But that was kind of the design principle is like, it should feel like as natural as a photo frame feel, like a real photo frame feels. And can we get with software to make that feel natural as well?

• 21:48Nilay Patel?

  So I think the price point is extremely aggressive. It's 149. Do you think people are just going to buy it as a photo frame, as a Google Photos integrated photo frame? And then you just happen to have an assistant device there? Or do you think people are going to buy an assistant device and think it's a pretty great photo?

• 22:05Speaker 01

  I think, look, I think it'll be all of the above. You know, here's, here's my view. I think, you know, any type you have a new type of category device, you know, if you look at smart speakers, for example, the core use case of smart speakers, the magic that really got people to adopt it was the notion of, I could use my voice to play music. And the moment you do it, it's like, oh, my God, this is how I should always listen to music. And that's why I think you're seeing across the full smart speakers just category, like music adoption and music usage is skyrocketing, right? Because it's just a much more natural interaction paradigm to listen to music versus, you know, the old way of Bluetooth or Cast or whatever it might be, right? They're like, you don't, you just, anyone can in the house can just start playing music and the music they want. I think for displays, I think you need a similar analogy. Obviously, you can play music on it, but in our mind,

• 22:50Speaker 01

  The other use cases that we see, we think photos is one of those moments. Photos is like, there's a magical moment, the moment you set it up and you just start seeing these incredible pictures that you've already taken. You know, the amazing thing is we all have these amazing photos because smartphone cameras have been awesome for the last four or five years, right? It's not like there's like some new technology. I mean, the cameras have been amazing and you bring some AI to it, like what Google Photos does, and all of a sudden it just is a magical experience of like every time I walk by the hallway where I have this thing, it's a positive moment for me. And it's hard to find a product that could actually do that, right? I think similarly, like I think the YouTube experience of rethinking, just like we had to rethink the music experience, rethinking YouTube in the context of the home where it

• 23:33Speaker 01

  can help you in those interesting moments, whether it be in the kitchen or helping you understand, seeing the highlights of the sports game, what have you. We think those are the types of use cases that are really going to drive adoption of the product. And then, of course, it does all these other things, which is kind of again how smart speakers like got a lot of traction is like, I got it for music, but wow, I can do timers and alarms and do my home automation, all these great things. And I think you'll see something similar with smart displays as well.

• 23:57Nilay Patel?

  So people were tweeting at me this week when I said, hey, it's a great price for a photo frame. I mean, people are just going to buy it to run Google Photos. And everyone said, I would do it, but I don't want Google spying on me in my house. And I know there's a mic switch on the back. Does that mic switch physically disconnect the mic?

• 24:12Speaker 01

  It is. It's a hard switch. It's a straight up hard switch. The microphone is completely cut off. There's no software mechanism to turn it back on. So for those who are obviously incredibly privacy conscious, yeah, we do, that's exactly the purpose of that mic switch is it's a hard switch.

• 24:28Nilay Patel?

  And so that leads me obviously to the fact that it doesn't have a camera.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 24:31Nilay Patel?

  And you, when I saw you at the event and I saw some of the other folks at Google at the event, it was very clear that you had decided not to put a camera on it. Just walk me through that a little bit.

• 24:40Speaker 01

  My strong belief is you have to have a design center of what are you trying to design the product for? And then product decisions come out of that. We really do feel adding a display to a Google Home product actually significantly enhances the ability of the product. Right? You can do much more. I mean, smart speakers are great. They really simplify the voice interaction piece of it, but they're not always the best way to actually communicate back. And so we really felt that adding a display significantly makes our products better, particularly when you think about all the assets that Google can bring from calendars to maps to photos to YouTube, what have you. And so we really felt that this can be a game changing product. And one of our goals from the outset was how do we make sure that people feel comfortable in putting in any room in their house?

• 25:24Speaker 01

  And so when you think of all the design elements, so the camera is obviously one important part of the design element. The other side of it was the form factor, the size, the materials they use. All those pieces were just optimized and designed around how do we make sure that people can put this in any room in their house? And if you're comfortable, it feels natural to put it there. So that's why we made it small, a lot of first impressions, which is saying a first impression when we built it was like, wow, it's much smaller than I thought. Because we were intentional about having a small footprint where you put in the bedside table, the coffee table, the kitchen table. It doesn't feel overwhelming. The camera is obviously a key part of it. I mean, the truth is, we know that, you know, based off research, this is that surprising is that people are uncomfortable with cameras in every room in their house. Certain rooms, they might be comfortable, but they're not going to be comfortable in every room in their house.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  And so, you know, either you can fight it or embrace it. And for us, we felt like embracing it, like, let's go prove we can build an amazing product, which does not have a camera on it, but can still offer immense value to a lot of consumers. And I, we really felt like we can do that. You know, we debated it, but it wasn't like a hard decision. Like the core use cases that we are thinking through, we think are super compelling without the camera. So for us, let's, let's offer the consumer the choice on it. And of course, there are other products out there which have the camera, including Google Assistant products. So people who do want to, you know, get a product for video calling, they have a choice to do it, which is, which is great. I think from Google's standpoint, then we're giving choice. But for us, in our design center, we felt like the best decision was not to put one in.

• 26:47Nilay Patel?

  So you brought up other Google Assistant products with a camera. I'm assuming you mean the Lenovo smart display.

• 26:52Speaker 01

  Lenovo and JBL also has one.

• 26:54Nilay Patel?

  Which walks me right into this thing I've been threatening you with since we first started talking today.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 26:58Nilay Patel?

  Which is.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  The thing that no consumer cares about, except you. Let's go.

• 27:02Nilay Patel?

  And the Vergecast audience, man, these are my people. That's what, that's, these, this is my, my tribe, it's strong. You have, you're, you're doing, you have like multiple platforms going on right now. In like a classic Google way, so this one is running on Cast, which is like your baby. Right? That was your team that developed the Chromecast and the Cast sort of platform keeps expanding and now it has this. But then the other ones, the JBL, Lenovo, run on a different platform called Android Things. Why are they different?

• 27:32Speaker 01

  There's a couple of reasons for it. So one is that we actually think that the, the history here is actually what was the optimal development platform for the speed at which we want to work against. So most OEMs, like when we think of the third-party ecosystem, they're incredibly familiar with Android. Right? This is like the development platform they've been using for a whole host of devices. It's not just in phones. It's actually in many, many different devices. And so when you look at what's the easiest for a OEM to actually go build a new product, for them, Android is the platform. It's the development platform which they bring all the types of new hardware. And so for them, Android Things is a perfect match for that because Android Things is optimized around IoT devices and actually makes it easy for any OEM to actually bring, get it up and running.

• 28:14Speaker 01

  For us, on, on the first-party side, you know, we've done a lot of optimization on the Cast platform. We've spent a lot of investment, as you said, on making sure that we can tune it and optimize it into the hardware kind of specs that we see are important for our products. And so for us, it's just easier to build on the Cast platform because of the history of where we've always come from. It's not, it's not a statement against or for Android Things or the Cast platform. The truth is like, we've always been developing on the Cast and the OEMs have always been on Android Things. And so we're just providing the platform for the ecosystem that makes the most sense for them, which is what Android Things is intended to deliver and which allows us then to build great product experiences like they have done. And you know, over time, we are, we are finding ways that we can align these platforms.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  So from, you know, this is internal Google, like how we can develop things easily that go across both. But you'll see the experience that is across both of them is inconsequential, meaning like it's the exact same experience. You just don't have to care. That's kind of the intention. Like, you know, our goal again, in every product we build, every product category we build, is that we want to have a great first-party story and that's what the By Google program is, but of course we want to support the ecosystem and we felt like this is the best way to do it. Like, let's not, let's not force a decision that doesn't make sense, is not natural for the OEMs or for us. And so that's why we ended up in where we ended up.

• 29:28Nilay Patel?

  I think so. I think some people do care and I think the concern is always that the first party platform will do better and be better supported and gain more features faster. I mean, just look at the Pixel phones, right? Like, Google controls that experience. You don't have to worry about whether or not Samsung and Verizon are going to get together and deliver an Android update to you. So there's always a concern that as the platforms peel apart, the first party one will be, will be a better choice. I think maybe most consumers don't know that, but I assure you, Vergecast listeners are aware of that. So do you worry about that?

• 29:59Speaker 01

  We have learned some of the lessons, right, from, from the mobile side. So what, one of the things you'll notice on Android Things is actually the updates are controllable by Google. So the alignment is much stronger in terms of the capability set and like how we develop features. In fact, as we are building features, we build them together. The platform team and my team are building them together so that they actually can deploy in multiple places. And you'll see like, you know, some of the features that are cast specific features, we are intentionally bringing to the third party. So multi-room support was enabled on the Lenovo device and JBL device. And so you're totally right, given the history, I think, of what's there. But we're architecting this program with all that in hindsight, knowing what the trade-offs were. And so we're being thoughtful about making sure that we're doing it the right way this time.

• 30:43Speaker 01

  So I think you'll see a much bigger convergence here than I think you have seen in the past. And, you know, our goal is to make it super transparent that no consumer should care which, which one they're going to get. Outside of, obviously, they choose what they think is the best hardware device that they're trying, you know, that they think is best for their home.

• 30:58Nilay Patel?

  Are you going to let the third parties do like skins and special features and customize the interface? Are you, are you saying this is ours?

• 31:05Speaker 01

  As of right now, we're, we're taking a stronger position of what the user experience will be and that'll be driven by Google.

• 31:10Nilay Patel?

  Okay. So speaking of Cast, there was a new version of the Chromecast that came out. But you didn't talk about it at the event at all. You didn't make any fanfare about it. What is going on with the Chromecast?

• 31:19Speaker 01

  So Chromecast continues to do incredibly well. And so we haven't refreshed the product in three years. And so we thought it was important to actually refresh the product. We did improve the performance of the product as well as started adding some new capabilities around it. Like we're thinking about how you can do multi-room with different types of... You can bring the TV into a multi-room scenario. So I think one of the pieces of feedback that we obviously heard is most people have their best audio systems connected to the TV. So let's make sure when we think of multi-room audio, we can actually incorporate that as part of the product experience. And we'll continue to update it as we go. When we're... You'll see, actually, there's a big convergence that's happening. When we think about how Chromecast is built and bringing the TV is part of this overall assistant experience.

• 31:59Speaker 01

  So, you know, the first thing we ever launched with Google Home two years ago was the ability to use Netflix... Use your voice to play Netflix and YouTube on the television. And that was a kind of big enhancement. That was a kind of a changing... A big step up in experience around not even having any remote control at all. Not even a handheld remote, a fully far-field experience of how you can actually enable media consumption. And so we're trying to bring Chromecast more into... And Google Home together, much closer together, so we can start enhancing the experience without adding complexity. And so I think for us, Chromecast continues to be a super important investment. And, you know, this is not meant to be a major kind of redefinition of the product. To be honest, the product is really simple. And I think that's the advantage of the product.

• 32:42Speaker 01

  Like, I don't have to reinvent the wheel, to be honest. I think part of it is just making sure that we're continuing to upgrade it in terms of like, obviously, the design pieces of it. Obviously, we upgraded as well and putting the latest kind of connectivity stacks on it. So we're still seeing tons of momentum there. We think there's a lot of opportunity to connect it with the Google Home ecosystem of devices, connecting with the Nest devices. And so we'll continue to invest in the... Mostly in the software side because, from our standpoint, the hardware of Chromecast is fairly basic. The magic has always been on the software and how you connect to other devices.

• 33:10Nilay Patel?

  So you actually brought up Netflix, which was a question I forgot to ask you about the HumHab. You cannot play Netflix on the Home Hub right now. So it's a cast endpoint, but you can't cast Netflix to it. And you certainly can't ask it to play Netflix. What's going on with that?

• 33:23Speaker 01

  You know, I think this is a discussion we're having with Netflix right now. I think Netflix is taking a reasonable approach in this sense. They want to understand how these devices are going to be used and where they're going to be used before they're going to commit themselves to a new type of device type. And so they're being conservative on this. And, you know, I think for their business, they think that's the right decision. I think they want to wait and see and how this actually plays out. You'll notice they haven't committed to any smart displays. It's not just us. I think they're being cautious on it. And, you know, I can understand they're a very focused company. They, whatever they go into, they focus and really nail whatever experiences they want to go, whenever they go into something. So we're talking with them. I think a lot of this will be sharing the information and data we get around, hey, here's what's going on. Here's how, here's where people are placing them. Here's how, you know, different types of usage that are happening on the device.

• 34:08Speaker 01

  And, you know, hopefully they'll join in soon. But I think for us right now, we still think the value proposition, obviously you can cast all the other content. Many of the other content partners haven't taken the same stance. And we enable voice casting for, you know, the same set of partners we enable for Chromecast. We're enabling for all these other partners as well. So I think this is just the nature of new device categories. Different companies are going to take different stances on them. And over time, it'll resolve itself.

• 34:31Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, so let's talk about TV broadly because the first time I ever talked to you was like eight years ago, when you were in charge of Google TV.

• 34:38Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 34:39Nilay Patel?

  You don't make a standalone Android TV box as part of your portfolio, I don't think.

• 34:43Speaker 01

  No, we do not.

• 34:44Nilay Patel?

  But Sony ships it, obviously inside of their TVs are very popular. Other companies do it. Why doesn't Google make the, you know, the sort of Apple TV competitor that runs Android TV?

• 34:54Speaker 01

  You know, our view is that when you look at the TV landscape, there's kind of four big types of devices that people get their smart TV capabilities from. So the biggest and most vast is smart TVs, right? That's actually where a majority of, that's the biggest installed base. That's a majority of way that actually people consume over the top content. Then you have the game consoles. Then you have set top boxes, right? Traditional set top boxes. So there's a major change going on in the kind of traditional operator model. Before they used to have these proprietary boxes. That they'd have like, you know, examples would be Comcast and Dish and DirecTVs. All these guys used to have their own proprietary boxes. I think what they're recognizing is that, one, those proprietary boxes don't allow over the top content, which is a problem.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  I mean, obviously, if they're going to be an integrated aggregator of content, not having Netflix and YouTube on there is a problem. But also, they're fairly expensive. And so, that's kind of the third category. There's a big transition happening of how those boxes are getting replaced. And the fourth is these over the top boxes, like the Chromecast and the Roku's and the FireSticks. What Google's strategy has been is like really focusing on the smart TV and the set-top box category, because actually, we think that's the easiest place to actually get wide penetration of our services in our platforms. So that's why, you know, you'll see we focus on the TVs, and we have a ton, a ton of different operator relationships right now, which are either being deployed or already have been deployed. And for us, on the over the top category, you know, we have Chromecast, it continues to perform really well. And so, we haven't seen a huge need that like we had to fill a gap there.

• 36:22Speaker 01

  And there are devices that come with Android TV. Like the Xiaomi box is a device that I think launched just recently, where they're offering the Android TV platform. Android TV is a great platform for a lot of different OEMs out there. And so, that's where we're putting our investment. We think actually that's a bigger payoff for users and for Google.

• 36:39Nilay Patel?

  I'd like to just shout out all the people who are currently tweeting the words Nvidia Shield TV at me right now.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, there you go. No, exactly. Nvidia Shield is another example of a set-top box that, or sorry, an over the top box that is built on Android TV. And that's getting, you know, deployed by different partners.

• 36:54Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, I mean, they're definitely still going to tweet at me that I forget about it. Just insist that I forget. It's there, I have one.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  I apologize.

• 37:01Nilay Patel?

  So that's like the living room, right? You've got a smart speaker, you've got a TV, you can use your voice to control your TV platform there. What about the other rooms of the house? Is that just, we're going to stick Home Hubs and Google Home Minis in those rooms? Do you, where should the microphones go? Are they all going to go in the light bulbs and? And the radiators, they're going to stick them in Nest devices. Like, it seems like they should go, they should become more invisible, not more visible.

• 37:25Speaker 01

  I think a couple of things. One is, I actually don't think it's sensible to put microphones in all the different types of products. I think you will have products that have intelligence plus the microphones together. And, you know, putting microphones in random arbitrary products like washing machines and, you know, in the walls and stuff like that, I think has a couple disadvantages. One is, right now, we're very early in what the evolution of voice technology is going to be. And I think embedding, you know, I get the question of like, why don't we embed microphones all over the, in the walls, and so it's like completely transparent. And my view is, in three years, the experience is going to be so much better that it doesn't make sense in my mind to actually start embedding into fixed devices that are going to last like 10, 15 years right now.

• 38:10Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  What's much better is, in this earliest part of the lifecycle, like, we're going to keep improving the products every couple of years, right? Every couple of years, you're going to get major improvements of the product itself. And so, in this phase, I do think you will have a, some sort of smart speaker or smart display in every room. And that will be the microphone, and also that will be more and more increasingly the on-device intelligence. And the goal should be to connect with all the different devices. Instead of putting intelligence in every device out there, just put a lightweight connectivity stack, which makes it easy for me to connect the light bulbs, connect the thermostat, connect the microwave, whatever it might be. And that's how the home should be architected. It's just a more flexible model, given the lifecycle we are in today. Maybe in five years, and maybe in 10 years, when the technology is maturing,

• 38:53Speaker 01

  then it makes more sense to embed it in other ways inside the home. But I just think it's too early to do that, to be quite honest. And I think the evolution, I mean, you just see what's happened. It's still crazy. We launched Google Home just two years ago. And how much we've improved the product and changed the product and added features and capabilities, it's like, wow. It's, so, I can only imagine two years from now, what, where the technology evolution will be. So, that's my point of view. I just don't think it makes sense, particularly at this point in time, to put microphones all over the place when the technology underlying everything is moving so fast.

• 39:26Nilay Patel?

  All right. So, you've gone way over time, and I appreciate it. So, let's just do a quick lightning round, and I'll let you get out of here. When you have the whiteboard of features for your products, for the home products, where on the list is changing the wake word from "hey, Google"? Is it the first thing on the list? Is it the last one? Just where on the list is it?

• 39:45Speaker 01

  When you guys come in, it's obviously the first.

• 39:49Nilay Patel?

  Is it? Do you think about it?

• 39:52Speaker 01

  Look, yeah, yeah, we've definitely thought about it. Trust me, we've heard you.

• 39:59Speaker 01

  We've debated it for a long time. We continue to believe, though, that this is about Google. This is the future of what Google is going to be. And that, I will argue to you this, that the noise that comes from it is actually going down. And actually, I still think it's actually a very small set of the population that has an issue with the hot word. You guys are two of the, you and Dieter are two of the 50 I'm referring to right now. That is very loud about it. But I think, you know, things like improving it from, "Okay, Google," to, "Hey, Google," has significantly improved it. And I think it's becoming just a part of the natural way that people are speaking to the devices. So I do think over time, it's becoming less and less of a big deal.

• 40:42Speaker 01

  The noise has definitely gone down from when we first started. And I think for us, like, you know, building a completely separate brand, because, look, when you come up with a new hot word, it's a new brand. You're effectively carving out a new brand for what this assistant thing is. And for us, that's, we believe fundamentally that this is about Google. This is about bringing all the capabilities and assets that Google can bring. And separating it as a brand just doesn't make sense to us. And so we do think that this will do away. And hopefully, you guys will eventually forget to ask me one time.

• 41:12Nilay Patel?

  We'll see.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  I'm waiting for it.

• 41:15Nilay Patel?

  Look, everyone has dreams, man. What's going on with the button on top of the Google Home Mini? You have to disable it. Are you ever going to re-enable it? Or are you just going to put out a new version and it'll be fixed and re-enabled?

• 41:26Speaker 01

  Once we made that decision, we're going to stick with it from our standpoint. And again, it hasn't been a huge user problem, to be honest. It's a gap that I would like to address in future versions. Yeah, we have no plans to change our decision we made before.

• 41:36Nilay Patel?

  Sure. People already are talking about a larger Home Hub because they want to use it as a picture frame. Is that something you guys have talked about?

• 41:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's lots of things on the whiteboard.

• 41:46Nilay Patel?

  I gotta find this whiteboard.

• 41:47Speaker 01

  Right. It's right next to the, hey, changing the hot word. No, just kidding.

• 41:50Nilay Patel?

  But yeah, no, one of those things is on the reality column and one of them is on the like, screw with Eli column.

• 41:56Speaker 01

  No, look, you know, we, we do think that there's a lot of opportunity for smart displays inside the home. I, I actually do really believe that once people see the immense value that a smart display can bring, particularly things like photos and YouTube, increasingly, that's what the expectation of any, you know, the smart speaker will evolve more and more into the smart display. And I think there are opportunities for multiple types of cues. And so, you know, of course, we're always looking at it, but at, at this point, I think it's really key for us to make sure we help users understand the value of obviously what we just launched. And so we'll go from there. But yeah, I think there's lots of runway, to be honest. I think, again, I actually think this will be a fairly big moment in the narrative of the whole smart

• 42:37Speaker 01

  display, smart speaker kind of category. The, I guess, the, the ambient computing or assistance in the home. I think smart displays will be a major pivot point in where the technology's gonna go. That's, that's my guess.

• 42:48Nilay Patel?

  Very cool. Okay, this is the last one. I'm gonna tell you upfront, I have no idea what this means. It's from Dieter.

• 42:54Speaker 01

  Oh, God.

• 42:55Nilay Patel?

  She just submitted a question. I'm just gonna read it to you. It's not even a question. It's a demand.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 43:01Nilay Patel?

  It just says, "Do not let Rishi out of the room until he tells you what the ever-loving shit is going on with multiple Google accounts."

• 43:08Speaker 01

  Oh, that's okay. I was, Dieter always comes with two things.

• 43:12Nilay Patel?

  So you know. So you know what this means. Tell me.

• 43:15Speaker 01

  Oh, I definitely know what this means. Yes. Dieter's complaint is that right now, we do not support G Suite accounts on the device. I've given the same answer. So I'll, I'll give it to him again. That, uh, though, I was, I literally was over, you said Dieter's question. Like, I know this is gonna be. The question is, why don't G Suite accounts work with Google Home Hub? Like, you can't get your calendar information on it. The truth is, like, so G Suite's accounts are designed for enterprises. They're designed for companies. And companies have a ton of tight security controls about how their information is protected inside of Google.

• 43:58Speaker 01

  And so for us to build, you know, the Google Assistant is obviously a very consumer-oriented application in terms of like how we're building it and how we're using it with like from a features standpoint. There are a lot of obligations that we have to meet to make sure that's meeting all the security requirements that meet an enterprise customer. And we've done all that stuff, obviously, on things like Gmail and Google Docs over the last many, many years. We're working on it to get the Assistant, because we actually, we do think the Assistant can actually be totally helpful inside a workplace as well. But then we have to work with all those safeguards and data protection services that we have for those enterprises. And so while Dieter is not an enterprise, and I understand why he believes he's an exception to this policy, we still have a policy in place, obviously, to protect the

• 44:42Speaker 01

  data of many of our corporate customers. So that is why it does not work. But it is well understood that this is something we'd like to fix.

• 44:50Nilay Patel?

  All right, so we'll just add it to the whiteboard of questions that we ask.

• 44:53Speaker 01

  Yes, that's exactly right. I'm just gonna have a Dieter whiteboard, and I'll just keep it up all the time. How about that?

• 44:58Nilay Patel?

  Perfect. All right, Rishi, thank you so much for sticking on and going deep on this stuff with us. I really appreciate it.

• 45:03Speaker 01

  No problem. Talk to you later.

• 45:04Nilay Patel?

  Thank you to Ivy Ross and Rishi Chandra from Google. A great conversation. I am really interested in hearing who you want me to interview next, how you think these are going. So just tweet at me, I'm at Reckless on Twitter. Would love to hear from you. We'll see you again next week. Hey, everybody, one more time, I want to remind you, go check out the Better Worlds podcast feed. It's where we're posting all of our stories from our Better Worlds Positive Science Fiction project. It's so cool. Go subscribe to that feed right now. You can find it. All of our stories, we're gonna have them read in that feed. It's gonna be really neat. Check it out.