The King of Moab: Ultrarunner Max Jolliffe On Winning Moab 240, Recovery From Heroin Addiction & Why Suffering Is His Greatest Teacher

Max Jolliffe is the Moab 240 course record holder, elite ultrarunner, and one of endurance sport's more unlikely origin stories. This conversation explores Max's multi-generational family history with addiction, the opioid crisis, his decade-long battle with heroin, the moment in a jail cell that changed everything, and how the tools of sobriety – surrender, teachability, the daily reprieve – became the foundation of an athletic career. Along the way, we get into what it looks like to take an obsessive, addictive mind and aim it at something that gives back. Max is the real deal. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: BetterHelp: Get 10% OFF the first month👉🏼https://www.betterhelp.com/richroll Rivian: Electric vehicles that keep the world adventurous forever👉🏼https://www.rivian.com WHOOP: The all-new WHOOP 5.0 is here! Get your first month FREE👉🏼https://www.join.whoop.com/Roll Mill: Get $75 off your fully automated food recycler with code RICHROLL + 90-day risk-free trial👉🏼https://www.mill.com/RICHROLL Birch: For 27% off ALL mattresses👉🏼https://www. BirchLiving.com/richroll Noble Mobile: The first phone carrier that pays you to use your phone less. Try it for just $10 with code RICHROLL👉🏼https://www.noblemobile.com/richroll Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:05Speaker 01

  Been sober for 12 years. It's a big part of who I am. I just come from a really long line of alcoholics and drug addicts. People ask me, "What is my heritage?" And it's alcoholism.

• 1:16Speaker 02

  Max Joliffe, the king of Moab.

• 1:20Speaker 03

  The Moab 240 is a 240-mile race through the desert of Utah.

• 1:25Speaker 04

  You have climbing, you have descending, you have dirt, dust, sand. Moab 240's got everything.

• 1:32Speaker 02

  For you to win Moab after only a few years of running is so unique in this space.

• 1:37Speaker 01

  If you make the conscious decision that this is something I want to do or go after and achieve, and you do put in the work, anything is possible.

• 1:45Rich Roll?

  You come into this recovery community, and you're introduced to all of these tools for life that are obviously gonna make your life better, but how have they made you a better runner?

• 1:56Speaker 01

  That's a great question.

• 2:00Rich Roll?

  Super nice to meet you. It's been so fun following your journey over the past couple of years and I'm just delighted to talk to you today.

• 2:07Speaker 01

  Thank you. Thank you for having me.

• 2:08Rich Roll?

  Thanks for coming. For people that don't know, you won the Moab 240 and you're on this kind of ascent path right now in your, in your career as an ultra runner. What do people not get about a race like Moab 250? We see these videos, we watch your videos, we think we have a sense of what's involved. What is your kind of like reality check on what it's actually like to cover that much distance in a competitive environment?

• 2:41Speaker 01

  It's almost like these races are not even races. Like I try to go into the multi-day events, almost looking at it as this is a big adventure that I'm just trying to do absolutely as fast as possible. And it's like, you almost can't wrap your head around being out there and pushing so hard for, I mean, quite literally days straight and not sleeping. It's just, there's, there's so many outside factors and variables. I mean, you run 100 miles and it's like you're problem solving and dealing with, you know, all these different little issues that might come up

• 3:21Speaker 01

  and foot stuff and pains and, you know, fueling and hydration and, you know, managing electrolytes and sodium and the crew logistics and the gear. There's like so many moving parts and I think the, the 200s and the multi-day stuff is just like that, just longer and on a bigger scale. So, um, yeah, it's hard to almost even look at them as a race. And most of the time you're like out there by yourself. Like the field is so spread out.

• 3:53Rich Roll?

  You're on some kind of spiritual like vision quest.

• 3:56Speaker 01

  Spiritual journey. Yeah, I know. Quite literally. Yeah. And like I said earlier, it's like you can experience every single human emotion during the, during a race like that.

• 4:07Rich Roll?

  The crazy thing in the King of Moab video is those last four miles, you know, that that last stage where, you know, after all that time and distance, it was still up for grabs. Like, are you gonna win? Are you gonna get passed? Did you like all these, you know, like you're moving so slowly at this point.

• 4:26Speaker 01

  Anything can happen.

• 4:27Rich Roll?

  And then you find your legs. You're like, you know, God gave me my legs back. And you're hitting, you know, paces that you hadn't like in the entire race, like at the very end of this thing, like it makes no sense.

• 4:42Rich Roll?

  That you could like, like dig that deep or suddenly, you know, find that like deeper reservoir of, you know, access, like, you know, a capacity that, you know, no one would have thought possible.

• 4:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's like, kind of just the race factor and, you know, being motivated and getting a little spike of adrenaline or like seeing like the hope or the light at the end of the tunnel. Like, oh, maybe there is still a chance for me, um, which is really what I felt during Moab. I was, you know, five hours behind the leader at mile 200, um, 15 miles behind him. And he just happened to be going through, you know, a rough part of the race for him. He kept having to stop and, um, you know, the 12 hours before I was having a really rough section. So it's just like, it's so variable and the races are so long and so many things that could happen.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  Like you can quite literally get to the very end of the race, you know, second to last aid station, like I did at Cogadona and just have to drop. Like can't stand up anymore. I've got a cellulitis infection in my legs and I can't stand up. I can't put shoes on. I can't move. Um, it's over. Yeah. After all that time being out there, pushing so hard, so much work, so much, so many months of training and it all comes down to this race and it's just, just doesn't happen. It's just the way it goes, you know?

• 6:05Rich Roll?

  What do you think are the most salient aspects of, of your upbringing that have contributed the most to you being who you are today?

• 6:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, this could, this could be a very long story, but I think maybe the best way for me to just put it is like, I. I had like just a really complicated upbringing in life. There was lots of good that happened. You know, I can't say it was all bad. Like, I really did enjoy my childhood and, um, you know, I was lucky enough to be born and raised in like a really incredible place, you know, Newport Beach, like of all places, like what a, what a killer place to, uh, to be at, to, you know, be a kid and to grow up in, but, um,

• 6:57Speaker 01

  yeah, I just come from like a really long line of alcoholics, um, and drug addicts, you know, my entire family, both my parents, uh, my sister, my grandparents on each side, probably, you know, their parents and their parents and their grandparents. It's like, people ask me, what is my heritage? And it's like alcoholism. It's not like English or European descent. It's like alcoholism is, uh, just where I come from. And, um, yeah, as much as, uh, you know, I've had it just absolutely rock my family, um, it was kind of inevitable that I was gonna go down the same path. And like, I really do think if I, even if I had the best upbringing ever and there was no trauma, no abuse, like I still probably would have gone down the same path that I did. Um,

• 7:43Speaker 01

  and yeah, I think that all just like

• 7:46Speaker 01

  started from the beginning with me just, uh, having this, uh, this obsessive mind. Um, and you know, like even when I was like a little, like real little kid, it was like Halloween time, like candy, like being obsessed and like hoarding like candy or sneaking off to go to 7-Eleven to get a little sugar fix and, uh, you know, just, uh, yeah, the, the, the signs were all there and it was pretty clear from, you know, a third person perspective that I was gonna end up, uh, with an addictive personality and kind of, uh, fall into alcoholism and drug addiction.

• 8:27Speaker 01

  As much as I would have not liked to, and I've seen it absolutely rock my family. My mom's been sober for, you know, thirty six, plus almost forty years and, um, my dad, you know, is, uh, has had a really rough go and is still currently suffering and he's out and, um, yeah, that's, uh,

• 8:52Speaker 01

  That's a really difficult and uh complicated relationship for me to even talk about, but um I know it's not different than a lot of other people like I know so many people that you know suffer from the same thing that I do and have a very similar story. So me at least being able to share that with people and tell my story and if people relate to it and can get something good out of it. That's like what what I um what I look forward to and what satisfies me the most. And yeah, it's like, you know, first started drinking and using right around, I don't know, middle school times, like thirteen, fourteen, like started off smoking weed with friends and you know, cracking a couple beers and

• 9:35Speaker 01

  you know, just being a curious kid, trying things out and um kind of right around the same time, uh I ended up, uh I think it was fourteen years old. I was with my mom and my sister. We were at Trader Joe's and I had some friends that were um gonna go to the skate park and I was in a rush to get home and uh was crossing the street uh in the crosswalk with my skateboard and this lady hit me in her car going like thirty five miles an hour and uh I ended up in the hospital. Uh I like almost broke my femur. Um I ended up just chipping a bunch of my teeth, got road rash all over my body. They rushed me straight to the hospital.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  Um they're doing CT scans on my brain. I wasn't wearing a helmet. Um so uh just a very chaotic uh traumatic event and you know, they get me into the ER and they just hit me with morphine and that was the first time in my life where I was like, okay, like I'm gonna be okay. Like despite this like crazy traumatic event that had just happened to me, it was like I felt the relief for the first time, you know?

• 10:40Rich Roll?

  The warm blanket.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then they send me home with a prescription for oxy and uh

• 10:49Speaker 01

  That kind of like set in motion this uh this snowball that turned like uh into a really, really big problem for me in my life uh throughout the next, I don't know, ten years.

• 11:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So it was oxy, that was the drug of choice?

• 11:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it was, it was always kind of opiates and I like, I was a garbage disposal for a long, disposal for a long time. Like, I wouldn't do or try anything, but um in the end, it ended up just being uh opiates and heroin and like those Purdue Pharma OxyContin pills, like the Sackler family, like the, that uh documentary Painkiller, like that's, those are the pills that really like destroyed me and like almost an entire generation of people and a ton of my friends and yeah, I've uh, it's just, it's just brutal, man.

• 11:39Rich Roll?

  So the heroin, is the heroin when you just run out of the pills and you can't, you don't, you can't get them?

• 11:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:45Rich Roll?

  That's the path to heroin?

• 11:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was around, God, it had to have been right when I was graduating high school around 2010. Um, I think the government and uh people started to catch on that like,

• 11:59Rich Roll?

  They started cracking down.

• 12:00Speaker 01

  These things are so highly addictive.

• 12:01Rich Roll?

  Were you going to those pill clinics where it was just super easy to like fake a script or something?

• 12:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wasn't specifically, but I had, you know, multiple friends that were doing the doctor shopping, you know, going, coming up to LA, you know, seeing crooked doctors, getting a hundred and twenty of these eighty milligram oxy pills and then going down the street to another crooked doctor that'll write them a prescription for another hundred and twenty. So they were like everywhere. I mean, if you were um a user, it was like very easy to get those things. And around 2010 and what was super unique and weird about those pills is like you could so easily just scrape the time release coating off of them and like people were smoking them on tin foil, like, like straight up heroin and um.

• 12:44Rich Roll?

  I didn't know you could smoke them.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. So that's what me and, I mean, you could smoke them, shoot them, eat them. They were like, it was a very maybe innovative.

• 12:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  Creation.

• 12:55Rich Roll?

  That's dark shit though.

• 12:56Speaker 01

  Right. And was that intentional on their part? Uh, who knows? Um, but yeah, that was just like, you know, I, you know, having and like. A lot of those friends who were doing that same thing that I was that are doing the doctor shopping thing and addicted, just like I was like, I have a friend who he broke his leg surfing and they they prescribed him those pills. It was like, we almost like, we like, none of us planned on being like junkies and drug addicts, but um, that's just like, you know, you, I, I think anyone, if you put on those pills for long enough, like you will become addicted. There's like, it's unavoidable. Like our brains are just wired when that chemical hits your brain, it's just like you become dependent upon it.

• 13:39Speaker 01

  And around 2010, the government caught on, they just stopped making them, they banned them. So uh, they just pretty much overnight disappeared everywhere and all of these people who are addicted to uh, these pills just immediately switched to heroin.

• 13:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 13:58Rich Roll?

  Your mom's, your mom was sober, has been sober your whole life though.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, whole life.

• 14:02Rich Roll?

  Right? So she, and I would assume that she's got some, you know, kind of radar vision, you know, when this starts, when this starts kicking off for you, like what? And how many siblings do you have? Like what was going on at the, at the house at this time?

• 14:15Speaker 01

  So I have one younger sister, um, and my mom, she's been, you know, sober her whole life. Uh, she was a stay at home mom. And this is where kind of the whole family dynamic uh, gets a little bit uh, interesting is she uh, she like never really worked a job. And when uh, you know, right around the same time that, you know, I'm starting to experiment with uh, using drugs and alcohol, like we have the 2008 financial collapse. And uh, my dad, uh, he was a uh, a creative writer, um, he has a master's degree in journalism from Northwestern, just a very smart uh, and very gifted and talented uh, human being. But just.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  Deep at his core, just an alcoholic that never really was uh equipped to deal with life, you know, and um he ended up losing his his job um due to alcoholism and you know, for the majority of my childhood, he was like, kind of pulling it off, but you know, always kind of chipping on the side, like we'd go on family vacations and uh the family car would like be be totaled and you know, he would have a DUI or some story that was like, oh, someone borrowed my car, you know, typical, typical alcoholic.

• 15:31Rich Roll?

  But he was in the house?

• 15:33Speaker 01

  He was in the house. Um, and then uh their marriage, I mean, just, I mean, my dad just really lost everything. Um, and their marriage fell apart. My mom, you know, didn't really have anywhere to go, so she ended up um moving to Arizona to live with her parents and uh me and my sister just like didn't want to go and we chose to stay where we were um and what we were familiar with and uh we're kind of like left with this man who was uh just a progressing alcoholic and uh yeah, things got like really bad and dark um pretty quickly, you know, my dad, like it was every day, like a pint

• 16:18Speaker 01

  of vodka, I'd come home from school and he'd be-

• 16:21Rich Roll?

  Like leaving Las Vegas style.

• 16:23Speaker 01

  Like worse, like he like he would spend, you know, days on end, just on the couch, like couldn't even get up or stand up, like he would drink fifths and just giant bottles of vodka and I, you know, I'd come home from school and like find him on the floor of the kitchen and have to like get on my hands and knees to check if he was breathing and that was like a daily occurrence. Like I remember one time I got arrested at school for uh stealing a sandwich from this like deli that was like across the street and I ended up getting busted coming back on campus and they had me, you know, in handcuffs in a cop car and school gets out and everyone walks, you know, walks past, I'm just completely humiliated and this cop, I ended up getting suspended and whatever, it was like wasn't

• 17:07Speaker 01

  that big of a deal. Um, but the cop was saying, was telling me, he's all, hey, like you, like, I can release you if you have a family member that can come pick you up. And I was like, I just straight up told him, I was like, dude, you can call my dad, but he's not going to answer like we're across, like, we live in these apartments across the street and like, you can walk me over to our house and I'll open the door and he'll, he'll be passed out on the ground. And um, cop drove me over there. We walked up to my door and opened the door and lo and behold, he's just like literally passed out on the floor and um, it was just shit like that, you know, it was just uh,

• 17:42Rich Roll?

  So you're just, you're just left to your own devices. You gotta raise yourself. It's just chaos.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  And like, I, you know, do, but the only thing that I like, that makes me feel comfortable is just like the same shit that he's doing. It's like drugs and alcohol were like the solution and the fix and just like what made me just feel okay with like the shitty circumst- circumstances of my life.

• 18:05Rich Roll?

  But the internal conflict, the tension of like, I'm never gonna be like my dad. And knowing that like, yeah, you're kind of headed in that direction, like deep down, like maybe not consciously admitting it to yourself, but like knowing that.

• 18:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, as much as I don't wanna float down the river to, you know.

• 18:24Rich Roll?

  You're on this inevitable like escalator that you can't get off.

• 18:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's, I'm so sorry, man, you know, the, the, the K, I can't imagine, like, I, my circumstances growing up were very different, but um, this idea of the home environment being so chaotic and this I, this, this notion that like, no one's, no one's coming to save me, like, it's just up to me. And trying to figure that out as a young person, like all on your own with just, you know, your sister.

• 18:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then like, I mean, eventually my mom did come and save us. We ended up moving to Arizona for a year and living with her. Um, and which I just continued the progression of my own disease, but uh, There was almost a whole year in high school where I was like homeless, like living at friends' houses. Cause I just like couldn't or didn't wanna stay at home and you know, it was like, at one point, my dad owned two houses on this street that God, if he didn't lose those houses, they'd probably be worth, you know, five million dollars in total. But uh, yeah, lost one house, then you know, drank the other house away. And then we move into apartments and eventually he just like gets his seventh DUI

• 19:39Speaker 01

  in however many years and he ended up going to jail. So it was just me and my sister living at friends' houses, sleeping on floors.

• 19:45Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 19:46Speaker 01

  Um, trying to-

• 19:47Rich Roll?

  How did you not end up in the system somehow?

• 19:50Speaker 01

  Well, I think we were about to, so when my dad finally, you know, went away for a pretty long stint uh, in jail, my mom just showed up and she was like, you guys are, you guys gotta come with me. Like this, it's, it's a wrap here.

• 20:02Rich Roll?

  Were you at Newport High School?

• 20:05Speaker 01

  Newport Harbor High.

• 20:06Rich Roll?

  Newport Harbor High, like for people that don't know, like this is, you know, an insanely, you know, well-heeled, privileged, like lot, high net worth, like area. You know, like a lot of people with a lot of money, you know, conservative community. Um, and for you to be, you know, kind of in the circumstances that you were, I would imagine, you know, created some social consternation.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, and like, I always felt like, um, like, why me? You know, like seeing all of my friends that have all these like, kinda picture perfect families and then like, I'm just stuck in this household of chaos and abuse and fighting and the cops getting called to my house and wondering if one of my parents is gonna go to jail. Like just the chaos of my life, I almost, uh, yeah, just a lot of times remember thinking like, God, like why, like why do this to me? You know, like why, why do I deserve this? And um, I don't know. It turns out like I like in hindsight, I'm like so grateful that um I was able to experience,

• 21:09Speaker 01

  you know, some uh some hardship early on in my life and it taught me some really valuable lessons and um as much as you know, as terrible as alcoholism and drug addiction is, like I really feel like it's made me the person that I am today. And um yeah, like honestly, wouldn't take any of it back.

• 21:29Rich Roll?

  There is this amazing pipeline from uh you know, drug addicts and alcoholics in recovery into, you know, ultra endurance sports, you know, and ultra running. It's just like show up at the start line of any ultra, you know, and it's just tattoos as far as the eye can see and you know, just it seems like, you know, there's just an insanely high percentage of people who are, you know, in recovery.

• 21:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. And sometimes I wonder, it's like, did I just become like so desensitized to life just from just all the shit that I've been through that ultra running is like the most extreme form of running and just inability for me to like feel something, you know what I mean? If it's hardship or pain or I mean, dude, some races, you can almost experience an entire lifetime of emotions in one single race. So I don't know. Maybe that's a big reason why I was just so drawn to ultra running.

• 22:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think there's, that's, that's an interesting lens on it. I hadn't thought of it in that way. I mean, the way that I generally think about it is I believe that addicts are seekers on some level and they're seeking answers to their questions and they're seeking comfort to their discomfort in unhealthy ways. Uh but ultimately, like they're, they want what everyone wants. They want, they want to feel connected. They want to feel loved. They want to feel safe, like all of these things. And you know, drugs and alcohol, you know, are very reliable in providing those things temporarily until they derail your life. But then when you take that away, that, that hardwired, you know, kind of predisposition.

• 23:11Rich Roll?

  For extreme experiences to feel something, to feel alive, to try to understand yourself in the world. When that gets removed, like you're going to find another way to explore that. And ultra running is like right there, like, hey, you know, you can go as deep as you want and suffer. And, you know, on some level, maybe it's like, you know, that addict thing, like, I'm better than everyone else, but I'm also the biggest piece of shit in the world. You know, it's like, well, ultra running will deliver on both levels, you know, because if you finish a race, you're like this amazing, you know, esteem building sort of situation. But also, like, you're just going to go to the darkest cave you've ever gone to.

• 23:51Rich Roll?

  And you're going to experience that level of suffering that on some level, maybe you're, you, you, you're kind of looking for.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  Right. There's something therapeutic in that. Yeah.

• 23:59Rich Roll?

  Like, how do you think about suffering as a teacher?

• 24:03Speaker 01

  I feel like, yeah, pain and suffering is my biggest motivator in life to do anything. Like, I remember specifically, you know, finally, you know, after all the shit that I went through. Overdosing, you know, getting arrested multiple times, spending quite a bit of time in jail, which is how I did finally end up getting sober. I just like, and the one thing that my dad did for me that I like, was the most valuable thing that he ever taught me was he just like dragged my ass to AA. And while I was like, kind of in the worst time of my addiction, he was actually sober for, you know, quite a few years.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  So there were, there were times when, you know,

• 24:49Rich Roll?

  He had periods.

• 24:50Speaker 01

  He had periods of, of, you know, kind of pulling it off and multiple years of sobriety here and there, which came and went. But I remember, you know, when I was like just really strung out and really bad.

• 25:04Speaker 01

  The only thing he could really think to do was like, I just need to like get this kid in an AA meeting. And he would drag me to meetings and I was like, I'd be going to meetings high and.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  It was, yeah, I just like wasn't ready, but at least it planted the seed for me to know that, hey, when the stars do align and I do finally have this opportunity where I'm ready and willing to get sober, um, I know where to go. And I ended up getting out of jail. Um, I spent almost three months in there and For what? You just got busted? Yeah, I mean, I had originally gotten arrested for possession with intent to distribute cocaine and uh marijuana to separate charges. Uh, and then uh was,

• 25:51Speaker 01

  you know, ended up getting put on formal probation for multiple years and I just like could not give a clean drug test. Like I failed just dirty drug tests over and over and over. And then uh, finally my probation officer was like, dude, this is like the 10th one. Like you're out of here. You're going in for a 90 day violation, which was the, the best thing to happen to me. Like I just needed to be removed from the situation that I was in, the people that I was in. I was just strung out and I had, you know, I tried detox and um had little brief stints, but I just like kept going back to the same thing. And I needed like a long extended period of time of being locked up away from everyone to like finally get my shit straight and um like just physically detox.

• 26:33Speaker 01

  So uh yeah, spent three months in like a very low security uh jail facility in Orange County. And then as soon as I got out, I just like got super plugged into AA and I just like, it was every day I was going to meetings and um I got really lucky that like a lot of my friends that, you know, I was out there using and running and gunning with like a lot of them were like kind of like ended up getting sober right around the same time. And I just had like a super like awesome support group and I like feel so lucky. I just got so plugged in with this like, this community down in Orange County and Orange County is like weirdly a hub for AA. Like there's tons of, you know, rehabs and treatment centers. It's like almost kind of like a mecca for uh

• 27:15Speaker 01

  recovery and uh Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous. So uh yeah, I just like really dove in headfirst to uh the program and working the 12 steps and um. Yeah, you know, I, I, my life did start to get better, but uh, it was, you know, like anything, you know, you become complacent and um, going back to like the pain, pain was the biggest motivator thing for me. Like it really took me um, to get to a point where I was like sober, but like still completely miserable to actually like really invest into working the 12 steps and actually applying them to my life. And then, you know, once I finally do work the 12 steps and I start working with other people and taking them through the steps and like, that's when like, I really started to make

• 27:59Speaker 01

  serious progress in my life and start to feel the benefits and like, right around the same time, I like randomly ju- just discovered running. I just like, quite by mistake.

• 28:16Rich Roll?

  It's an interesting kind of conundrum when you know you need to change, you know, it's inevitable that at some point you're gonna have to like, you know, give up this thing and start doing something else. But that's not enough to get you to do it. You know, there is something very specific about pain and suffering that uh, gives birth to the willingness. It's all about willingness. It's like, it's, you know what you need to do, right? But are you willing? And until you're willing, you're not gonna make that choice and you're gonna continue to slide and your life's gonna get worse until you reach that point where enough's enough, as we say. Um, you reach that point in jail, but willingness is such a fickle kind of energy. Like you can't, you can't

• 29:01Rich Roll?

  will somebody to be willing and you can't just decide to be willing. It's almost like this weird thing that, that descends down on you when you're in enough pain and gives you this burst of energy that you didn't have five minutes prior to finally do that different thing.

• 29:15Speaker 01

  And I think for me, I was just like quite literally like beaten into a state of willingness. Like, I share about this in meetings all the time, uh, that, you know, weeks and months leading up to the day that I got sober, like truly every single day felt like the worst day of my life. It was like Groundhog's Day on repeat of just like, just the worst day ever and um, Yeah, when you know, the cops showed up at my door, you know, like they always do when you're on probation, they just show up at any given time. And they showed up one morning, and I was like, this, like, this is it. This is my one opportunity. Like, I know they're taking me to jail. So like, I'm just, this might be my only shot to get sober. So I was,

• 29:59Speaker 01

  you know, quite literally beaten into a state of willingness and reasonableness. And I, you know, had a moment of clarity where I saw that, like, hey, this might be, you know, where the stars align, and I might only have this small window of opportunity to like actually get sober and stay sober.

• 30:16Rich Roll?

  These fleeting moments. Because you know, if you don't act in that moment, it will pass, and you'll be back to your bullshit, you know. And I think for people that don't really understand addiction, they struggle with this idea of like, well, clearly, you know, you're going down the wrong path here. Look at your dad. Like, there's the blueprint. This is where you're headed. How come you can't just make this different choice, you know? But you're stuck in this cycle of, you know, compulsion and, you know, craving and reward that is so cunning, baffling, and powerful. It's near impossible. It's, you know, when people take hits at AA and 12-step all the time, like, oh, it doesn't really work. The sobriety rate is very low and all of that. And they don't, they miss

• 31:00Rich Roll?

  the fact that, like, you know, when somebody relapses or goes out, it's like, oh, my God, somebody drank. It's like, no, what the miracle is that, like, all these other people didn't drink today, you know? It is, it's, it's so, it's so pernicious and challenging to overcome. And it requires those moments of clarity where willingness descends, and you realize you have this brief moment of time to like, make that different decision and set something in motion that's going to move your life in a new direction.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  And then through working those steps, you know, you end up developing a relationship with God and You know, getting, I mean, the byproduct is like, I've just like been gifted this like super amazing life now that I like never thought would have ever been possible. It was just, it looked like scorched earth just all around me.

• 31:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's pretty crazy, the arc. And so that was 2012, right?

• 31:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I got sober April 6th of 2012. So I'll have 14 years on April 6th. Yeah.

• 32:02Rich Roll?

  That's amazing.

• 32:03Speaker 01

  And like, yeah, I just like, I can't really take any credit for it. It's all like what God has done for me and the program of Alcoholics Anonymous and like all the people around me. Like, I could go on and name 100 different people that like have done so much for me in my life. But I just like, I just like quite literally like grew up in the program of Alcoholics Anonymous and like finally for the first time had like real men around me who were like solid role models and like learned valuable life skills and how to live a life. Like I, I had no skills of any kind. I wasn't good at anything. I had nothing going for me. And all I do is like show up to these meetings and like listen to people

• 32:42Speaker 01

  talk and like get my hand held as I figure out how to be a normal human being, you know?

• 32:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And you had no solid, stable male role model in your life up until then?

• 32:56Speaker 01

  No. I mean, it's like so weird. Like my dad was, he's like been around my whole life, but not really ever super present. And like, I really don't feel like I even know the guy. I mean, especially in the last, you know, seven or eight years that we've been estranged. Like I haven't spoken to him in many, many years. And yeah, he's, you know, chosen a life that I can't be a part of, you know, that involves drugs and alcohol and crime and mental institutions and jails and hospitals and a life that doesn't involve his family, which, you know, is, is fine. That's, it is what it is. And as much as it hurts, it

• 33:41Speaker 01

  I don't know. It's tough.

• 33:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:44Rich Roll?

  Are you able to find some level of compassion? Because he's the, you know, he's the alcoholic who's out there, you know, sick.

• 33:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. And like, I, I don't, I don't ever like harbor any resentment or anger towards him. I mean, obviously, you know, it's like, that does no one any good is like, the resentment is only killing me. But like, yeah, I just like genuinely like feel sorry for people who are just like suffering and just cannot get it. Cause I've, I've been there. I like, I've so badly wanted to just stop getting high and stop drinking and stop using, but just not being able to like for the life of me. So, um, yeah, I just, you know, I just really feel for, um, him and I still do love him, but I just have to separate myself and like for my own

• 34:36Speaker 01

  uh, mental health and sanity. It's just like I've, I've done this dance over and over where, you know, I let him back in and give him an inch and he takes a mile and just it chaos ensues and it's just, yeah, it's, uh, it's just really complicated and messy, you know?

• 34:53Rich Roll?

  So you're this skater kid, basically, right? Like, I'm trying to imagine, you know, you in high school, uh, like, like punk rock, like what are you listening to? Like, who are your influences? Like, what are you thinking about? And then let's like lead it up into like how you get introduced to running.

• 35:10Speaker 01

  I think I was just, I, I mean, super into skating and surfing was always like my two loves. Um, I'm like decent at both, never good enough to be, uh, uh, ne- never good enough to end up being on the surf team or skating and contests or anything, but, uh, just always really loved, uh, You know, both surf and skate culture and, you know, growing up in Orange County, Costa Mesa, like all of the big brands are there, like Volcom, Quicksilver, Ruka, Hurley, like you name it. That's kind of where Surf and Skate Mecca was. So, you know, being a kid, I just like, loved going to the skate park and loved going to the beach and surfing and that was like kind

• 35:53Speaker 01

  of my whole life and idolizing dudes like Andy Irons and Kelly and skaters, like all of the Baker guys and Tony Hawk. I mean, I dude, I was just, my friend sent me an old photo of me and a bunch of us little Groms as kids and I'm like, in every single photo, I'm wearing like a Tony Hawk shirt and like old Volcom shirts, which is funny, but that was just like me. I just, I just was a little skate surf rat.

• 36:21Rich Roll?

  And what was the vision? Like, do you had, did you have an idea of what you wanted your life to be? Or were you thinking about like what you might want to do?

• 36:29Speaker 01

  Not really. I mean, I don't know. I think there was just so much going. I think there was so much going on at home that I like really didn't have an opportunity to envision a life for myself. And like, I remember being like a little kid, like, I mean, young, like almost a toddler and like wanting to be a trash man, just because I saw the trash.

• 36:49Rich Roll?

  Right. But when you're in high school and things are going sideways, it's like, hey, man, like, I don't, you know, I'm not really seeing like a path for myself. So I'm just gonna enjoy.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  I mean, I got good grades in school and I just like knew I was never going to make it to college. Like, there was just no way that I was going to be able to financially be able to afford or pull it off, or even just like apply for a loan or a scholarship. Like, I just like, that was, it was never even like in the cards for me. I was just like, quite literally trying to survive. Like, I was, you know, homeless in high school. So I knew that, yeah, I was just like trying to survive, just barely making it, you know?

• 37:28Rich Roll?

  So you're plugged into meetings post 2012, you're dialed, you're starting to put the, you know, pieces back together and figure your life out.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  I get a job at a surf company. Yeah, no, I worked at Hurley for.

• 37:42Rich Roll?

  Until like this past year, right?

• 37:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, up until just last year, November left, I was there for almost 15 years. But yeah, just started off at the company.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  Sweeping floors and cleaning screens, like T-shirt printing screens and doing artwork with a friend of mine and, you know, weird little marketing activations. But yeah, it was just like, kind of like a hangaround grom and worked my way up through the company, going from, you know, just a 1099 freelance contractor, just contracted help to getting brought on to the graphic design team and then designing T-shirts and board short prints for a couple of years and, you know, acquiring more skills and hunting my craft and then becoming an apparel designer for multiple years after that. Like I, you know, at the beginning, when I first got brought on, like I was a Nike employee at the time, Hurley was a, the surf category for the Nike organization. So was, you know,

• 38:38Speaker 01

  affiliated with Nike and

• 38:39Rich Roll?

  This is like your college for learning how to be an effective storyteller and kind of public facing content creator.

• 38:47Speaker 01

  And it was cool being part of like such a big, like well-oiled kind of corporate machine. Like I saw the inner workings of like how focused Hurley and the Nike organization was on brand and storytelling. And we'd have these big town hall meetings where it was like, it felt like almost like a broken record on repeat. It was like storytelling, storytelling, storytelling. And, um, yeah, just like getting to work with like John Florence, you know, um, he was, you know, a huge part of the brand and I'm still super tight with a lot of the, the Hurley family that's gone on and started Florence Marine X, John's company. So yeah, just being really plugged in with very talented and creative people and just kind of being brought up and learning from

• 39:32Speaker 01

  the people around me.

• 39:34Rich Roll?

  But had never been like a quote unquote, like a athlete, like an athlete as we understand an athlete, like in high school, you can play sports or anything like that.

• 39:43Speaker 01

  No, I played, I played water polo for like the first two years of high school and was like on the swim team.

• 39:48Rich Roll?

  When you live in Newport?

• 39:50Speaker 01

  I mean, I just like, I always kind of like loved the water and like wasn't good enough to make it on the surf team. So like, what's the only other water sport that you can do? It's like water polo and swimming. And I was just like really small in the beginning of high school and, you know, was never going to make it onto the varsity team. So my sophomore year, they, swim season was coming and I was like, I don't want to go through the hell of just. Being on swim team during swim season is just like so grueling and so much like hard work, which is funny that I was like

• 40:19Rich Roll?

  That's hilarious.

• 40:20Speaker 01

  Avoiding hard work. So I was like, I'm just gonna, and then I ended up getting recruited by the, the coach of the wrestling team. So I ended up wrestling my sophomore year of high school, got brought on straight to the varsity team because they didn't have a 103 pounder. So I was like the lightest weight and already was in pretty good shape just from being on the swim team. And

• 40:40Rich Roll?

  So yeah, so you weren't like a total burnout in high school then?

• 40:43Speaker 01

  No, but I was like the worst player on the swim team and the water polo team. And then, you know, because I'm so small, I'm in this weight class where I'm like, because I have decent cardio, I was, you know, immediately put onto the varsity team and like had, I don't know, I had some wins, but mostly losses. Like I wasn't a gifted or talented athlete, but I did always have the ability to like put in the hard work. Like, yes, I wasn't like genetically gifted to like ever get big or be talented or have any skills in any sports, but I always was able to work hard. If that makes sense.

• 41:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but not on the cross country team or the track and field team.

• 41:19Speaker 01

  I, yeah, I didn't, I didn't even ever run once until I was 25 or 26.

• 41:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Where is that first touch point with running?

• 41:26Speaker 01

  So, uh, once I, once I got a job at Hurley, um, they had a skate park in one of the warehouses. They had this huge campus, like I'm probably 10 or 15 buildings and one of the buildings was this dedicated warehouse that was just a skate park in it. So, uh, you know, I get, I get a job there. Um, I'm, you know, a couple of years sober. You know, my life's starting to get good. I'm starting to piece things together. I'm starting to do things that I had, you know, completely given up like surfing and skate. Like I'm getting back into skating. I'm getting back into these things that I love doing. I got this nice crew of people like, we're going to the skate park at night. Like I'm getting better. I'm, you know, progressing and, uh, You know, when you're skate skating is one of those sports where like you do it like you're

• 42:11Speaker 01

  just bound to get injured and um I ended up breaking both of my ankles like a year apart. So had a couple injuries and at the time I was living with a friend of mine who uh he was just like a he was like really into the gym. He was a bodybuilder. So he was just really into the gym at the time and I was in a boot for a while and or a cast and then a boot for a while and I just got like really out of shape and at the time I was just you know eating junk food and smoking a pack and a half of cigarettes a day just N A A just drinking coffee smoking cigs like the only two vices that I have and uh you know over that year just like got really out of shape

• 42:52Speaker 01

  and just felt like shit uh a lot and once I started to finally be able to move around and walk again and felt like I got to the point where I could work out my roommate at the time was like dude just come to the gym with me like it's the best investment in your health like just I'll show you what to do just we're gonna just work out every single day so started going to the gym with him and um that was great and I love lifting I just like wasn't really trying to be a bodybuilder like he was and I found myself going to the gym and I would just like gravitate to the cardio section and the the stair climber was actually like my entry my gateway into uh running

• 43:34Speaker 01

  and then ultra running but I would just like go to the gym and just do an hour on the stair climber and that was like all I would do and then after a while at that point just go being on the stairs like my ankles were still like just too messed up to be able to run at that point and then I remember one day trying to go for a run on the treadmill and then I was like oh this feels good and then I you know started running on the treadmill and then doing the the stair climber and the treadmill and then eventually I found myself just going to the gym to only run on the treadmill and I'm doing this for you know a couple weeks or a month and I'm like why do I have this gym membership and I'm just gonna run on the treadmill like I can do this outside and then uh yeah just started running outdoors and um

• 44:16Speaker 01

  I like, I never really enjoyed or liked running, but when I finally started doing it on my own, like, we always had to run for wrestling and, I mean, even water polo and swimming, they would have us run and soccer and baseball and sports that I played as a kid. Running was always involved, but I just like never really thought that I liked it. And it wasn't until I started running on my own and like, doing this thing that was like very easily and rapidly producing like tangible results and progress for me. I think that's when I was like, oh, this is like something that's hard. It makes me feel good and I'm like getting these like small little wins.

• 45:00Speaker 01

  It was like the first time in like so long in my life where I was like, actually felt like I was starting to make progress and I was, I was winning, even though I was just like completing a five mile run. Like that was a win for me or like running a mile uh at eight minute pace. Like that was a win, like those things were so hard and um, yeah, I just uh somewhere along the line, just like fell in love with running and just ran more and more. I remember I'd do like an hour long run and be so wrecked, I couldn't run for a week after, but just kept with it and every time I'd run, I'd try to, you know, either run a little bit further or run a little bit faster and just continued to uh push myself.

• 45:41Speaker 01

  And uh at one point was like, I just did, I just ran 10 miles without stopping. Like I could probably like sign up and train for a marathon and uh, signed up for my first marathon in 2019, OC Marathon and the rest is kind of history.

• 45:58Rich Roll?

  2019 was your first marathon, like that was not that long ago.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:02Rich Roll?

  When did you realize that you were actually good at this? Was it that first marathon?

• 46:08Speaker 01

  I think it was that first marathon. I Um, after like talking with some people and I, I dude, I knew nothing going into it. I just had heard from some people that maybe four hours is a decent time goal, which for the average person, I think four hours is a very, very good and very achievable goal. Um, and then I ran three hours and 27 minutes. Like I ran, you know, over 30 minutes faster than I was even expecting and Without knowing what you were doing. Yeah, without knowing what I was doing. Training rationally. I was like, oh, that's interesting. And then, you know, signing up for another marathon. I think my second one was LA Marathon ran a 306. You know, it, it was like that kind of kept happening to me where I'd

• 46:49Speaker 01

  have this maybe like just too conservative goal for myself and I would just blow my expectations out of the water. And then that carried on into, uh, you know, my third marathon, I ran

• 47:02Speaker 01

  uh, 240, 248 or 247 or something. Boston qualified, got like 14th or something at the race. Um, and then, you know, my first ultra, I mean, it was a super competitive uh, ultra race, 50K Broken Arrow Sky Race. I, I, it wasn't, I mean, in the grand scheme of things, wasn't that good of a performance, but I did beat all of my other friends that I was doing it with who were like fairly accomplished runners and had been, you know, running ultra races and running for a long time. And I'm like brand new in this thing. And I'm like, okay, I'm like actually surprising myself at every turn. And, um, it really wasn't until uh, I ran my first 50 miler, which was in

• 47:43Speaker 01

  2020, the end of 2022 or 2023, and I signed up for this race saddles 50 miler. It's in Arizona. It's a satisfy sponsored race. Michael Verstik puts it on and I was out there just hanging out and they were like, hey, we got a bib for you if you want to run, uh, just the night before the race. And I was like, I don't really have any nutrition or electrolytes or anything, but I You know, I got my vest and you know, there's some like old expired gels that are like in this like Tupperware thing. I'm like, I could just pee somebody. I'll just run the race for fun and um, ended up jumping into the 50 miler the next morning and ended up winning, which was like,

• 48:20Speaker 01

  and then after that, I was like, okay, like there might be something here and you know, I'm really am starting to feel

• 48:29Speaker 01

  the success um that I'm having and I was like, I'm just like really gonna lean into this thing. Like maybe this running thing is my thing, you know, that I've been looking for for so long. Like I've, I've just never really ever been good at anything. And then I find this thing where I'm starting to have a little bit, bit of success and I'm like, maybe this is it. I'm just gonna go all in on this thing.

• 48:49Rich Roll?

  So that was it? Like, okay, now, whether or not this is my thing almost doesn't matter. I'm deciding that it is and I'm gonna just focus on it. And take all of my, you know, kind of like, uh, uh, you know, uh, addict obsessiveness and just like invested in here.

• 49:08Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 49:09Rich Roll?

  Into this thing that also, not for nothing, is pretty good at uh, emotional regulation. You know what I mean? Like when you're, you know, like that antsy kind of addicty feeling of like not feeling comfortable in your own skin. And like, this is pretty good at managing that.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  And if you're training super hard during the day, it's like, I always say, it almost feels like you just have to.

• 49:29Rich Roll?

  You have to exhaust yourself.

• 49:30Speaker 01

  You're so exhausted. You almost have this like force field around you where like anything that like someone might say to you that might like irritate you or piss you off. It just like, that stuff just seems to like bounce off you. Uh, you're just like more content with life. It like almost does the same thing that like drugs and alcohol will do for you, you know?

• 49:46Rich Roll?

  So do people, I'm sure they do, like say, oh, well, you just transferred your addiction. Like you're just, you're out of control, Max. Like you're just, you're just a dry drunk, like with all this ultra running stuff. How do you answer that?

• 49:59Speaker 01

  Um, well, I mean, for, I mean, for, you know, over 10 years, I was like super involved and plugged in with Alcoholics Anonymous and you know, have had a sponsor and sponsors. It's not until like maybe the last couple of years where I've just. I just have been blessed with this path that I just have to go down and my time is very limited and you know, I'm doing so much traveling and training that um I haven't been able to like make it to AA and be like super active and involved with meetings in a group uh in a little while but yeah, I mean, I would totally agree like I take everything to the extreme and um running is definitely one of those things but at least it's you know, a healthy outlet that's um

• 50:41Speaker 01

  become a very fruitful part of my life and brought me so many blessings and so many friends and so many experiences that I never would have been able to experience if it wasn't for.

• 50:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, it's certainly uh expanding your life aperture, not like narrowing it in the way that drugs and alcohol do, but there is also the the kind of warning signs or the danger zone of making these races and this sport your higher power.

• 51:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I totally know where you're coming from and there's something that happens with training and sometimes during races where like I feel closest to God during those times and um I like have a stronger relationship with God today than I ever did um being super involved and plugged in with AA and I don't know if that's just uh

• 51:34Speaker 01

  a product of you know, seeing the blessings that he's given to me in my life, but yeah, I'm I'm very cognizant of the fact that like I can't rely on racing and training to be my everything. I do still have to be um carrying the message and being of service and surrounding myself with um good people who are on like the same path as me and invested in the same lifestyle as me and just like also on the pursuit of bettering their lives and being better people.

• 52:13Rich Roll?

  When you think about the tools of sobriety, how do they inform or how have they made you like a better runner? Like, I'm always interested in this relationship between these two worlds, right? Like, you come into this recovery community and you're introduced to all of these tools for life that are obviously going to make your life better, but are pretty applicable as an athlete in the decisions that you make about what's important and where to focus your energy and your time and how to hone your mindset and, you know, kind of push your body.

• 52:46Speaker 01

  I think the biggest thing is, uh, like, just knowing that nothing is ever going to be as hard as getting sober. That will forever be the hardest thing that I've ever done. And no matter what, like, no matter how hard training or how much pain I'm in during a race, like, nothing is worse than kicking heroin in jail. So, like, just knowing that, having that in the back of my mind, um, is, you know, a big, kind of like motivating factor that I can and I am able to do these really hard things. But, um, I think more so is just like, just being able to surrender to circumstances

• 53:30Speaker 01

  and situations that are out of your control, which a lot of ultra running is just like problem solving and dealing with these things that just pop up and are out of your control. And being, um, being, uh, you know, able to just roll with the punches and, um, I mean, even more so, just being a public figure or a person on social media. I think the tools of AA have helped me navigate this weird world that is social media and, you know, putting my story out online and just dealing with people, you know? In person, it's like, it's always great. There's never any issues at races, like, the community is amazing.

• 54:13Speaker 01

  I've only ever had good encounters or interactions with people. It's, you know, online where, uh, there's, can be some resistance or, uh...

• 54:24Speaker 01

  Just like weird shit that goes on with people online and I, I, that's where I really have to lean on the tools of AA to, you know, not fire back at people online and not make comments, you know, and uh, just keep my mouth shut and you know, take an inventory and admit when I am wrong, when I do something stupid or fire off something, you know, a comment that hurts someone's feelings like, take a step back, do a 10 step and reflect on like, okay, what is my part in this? Like where was I wrong? Like this is a human being who has real feelings and emotions and like, I, I just want to keep my side of the street clean and not have someone, you know, with their feelings hurt because of some stupid shit that I said. So yeah, I, I mean, I'm, you know,

• 55:09Speaker 01

  a real person, I'm, you know, am emotional. I struggle with the same things that everyone else does. I'm not perfect, but um, you know, being brought up and learning from the principles of AA has helped me be able to like, just deal with that shit and be a man, you know?

• 55:26Rich Roll?

  I'm glad that you mentioned surrender because I, I think that that's like a key piece in all of this. Um, you can't get sober if you're relying on your self-will. You know, you're gonna, you're gonna just relapse and relapse and relapse. If you think that you're, you know, you're gonna be able to figure it out all on your own. It's only when you get to that point where you are willing to like, let go, let people in and you know, understand that, you know, you're not the center of the universe and don't have all the answers and that you're more powerless than powerful. And in the context of, you know, running ultras, you have to be in a state of surrender. There's too many variables. It's too long. The distances are so mind boggling. You have no control over

• 56:11Rich Roll?

  the elements or the other competitors. I mean, that's true in any athletics, but um,

• 56:18Rich Roll?

  The only way you're going to be able to get from the starting line to, you know, 240 miles later is if you are, you know, in that, in that state of like surrender, like, okay, God, like, you know, help me get from here to there. And like, I don't know what's going to happen, but you know, I'm not going to be able to do it completely under my own power. And I certainly have no control over all the things that might happen along the way.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  And to like, always remain being teachable, you know, like always trying to learn the lessons. And a lot of these races, like, I'm just like, I'm learning as I'm going. Like, I'm still very new to this thing. Even the 200 mile distances are a very new world within ultra running. So, uh, yeah, just trying to, and it's like, a lot of it's uncharted territory and trying to learn from the mistakes that I made. And I've made so many mistakes. Like, I really honestly haven't felt like I've had a good 200 mile race yet. Like, I've won one, I've DNFed another and had, you know, a decent podium performance at another race. But I, like, I really feel like I haven't cracked the code at that distance. I've had some-

• 57:24Rich Roll?

  Dude, you've only been doing this a couple of years.

• 57:26Speaker 01

  No, right.

• 57:27Rich Roll?

  You're still like, so new. I mean, the idea of these 200 mile races is new. You're new to it. You're also super young. And the other people that are excelling at those distances are like 20 years older than you and have been like, running for, you know, most of their lives.

• 57:42Speaker 01

  Sure, yeah. But I, I mean, it's, I think it's more so just all of us, like, learning together on this new thing, you know, like, what's the-

• 57:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's brand new.

• 57:51Speaker 01

  What's the best way to handle sleep in a 200 mile race? You know, like, no one's really cracked the code or figured it out. So, um, just, yeah, me, I always try to, like, take valuable lessons and learn from these races and be able to apply it into future races. So, uh, yeah, that's just like, another principle of, you know, the program is like, learn from your mistakes, try not to do it again, like-

• 58:17Rich Roll?

  Be teachable. I mean, I think, when I think of the ultra world, like, we forget, like, it's so new, you know, the idea of this being a competitive landscape. And to the extent that people are like, well, this is how you train for a hundred, and this is how you do. It's like- Is it? You know, like, I, I think like, we're at the very beginning of trying to figure out, you know, what the best way to approach these kind of races are. And that's what makes people like David Roche so interesting. You know, like, they're trying different things and like, who knows what's, what's gonna, you know, pan out or not. But like, he's sort of approaching it like a scientist in a lab. And I think that's real, and, and sharing it transparently, which I think is really cool.

• 58:54Speaker 01

  So much respect to him for sharing everything publicly. It's like,

• 58:56Rich Roll?

  And that's like in the, at the hundred mile range.

• 58:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:59Rich Roll?

  Uh, but, you know, then you get to the, like, I think people equate these things, like, oh, 50, 100, 200, it's all the same. Like, these things are wildly, you know, universes apart. And, uh, and I think when it comes to like, the distances that you're excelling at, like, this is just, you know, the Wild West right now.

• 59:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:17Rich Roll?

  I was, uh, out to dinner the other night with some friends and Molly Seidel was, was there. And I'd never met her before. For people don't know, she won the bronze medal in the, uh, in the Olympics in, in 2020. And she's now like, you know, like, moving into the ultra world. And to me, that's super exciting. Like, I think that when you start to see, you know, Olympic gold, Olympic medalists and like, you know, people who are like, you know, in the, in the top, top, top of the, the kind of international marathon world, uh, decide to move into the ultra world, we're gonna see a lot of innovation and a lot of records being broken.

• 59:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:57Rich Roll?

  Because they're bringing, you know, kind of an elite, um, legacy into a world that's really untapped right now.

• 1:00:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. And she, I mean, she, props to Molly, just earning a golden ticket. I, and I think her second ultra race ever. So she'll be in

• 1:00:12Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  Western states, the most competitive 100 miler.

• 1:00:15Rich Roll?

  It's gonna be really interesting to see.

• 1:00:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, super excited for her. I've, I've met her, um, before. She's an amazing human being. And yeah, I would love to see more of those kind of higher profile people coming into tri- I mean, it's great for the sport and, uh, trail running is booming. I mean, Maybe I'm biased, but I feel like trail running and ultra running is growing at a

• 1:00:35Rich Roll?

  A hundred percent.

• 1:00:36Speaker 01

  Maybe any sport out there right now. Yeah.

• 1:00:39Rich Roll?

  What do you foresee for the future, near and far in the sport? Just the sport generally, not yourself in it, but like, where is this, where is this heading? Terms of like, is the popularity going to continue to grow? Do you think like you're going to see more? I mean, it seems to me like there's going to be more money coming in. We already see what happened with, with UTMB. Like that's going to continue. And as soon as there's more money there, more of the Molly Seidel's are gonna, like if you're on the, if you're on the world marathon circuit and you're coming in, you know, eighth or 10th in these races consistently, you're like, I don't know, 10 minutes off the pace or whatever.

• 1:01:16Rich Roll?

  Like, why not move, like the, the ultra world is like wide open for you.

• 1:01:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think, you know, as more eyes grow on the sport, you know, the brands are going to be forking over more money. We will get some of those athletes that are crossing over and we're starting to see it. So I envision the sport just growing as a whole. It's really is a very accessible sport. Like you can essentially do it in so many different places in the US and throughout the world. I mean, it's a worldwide sport.

• 1:01:47Speaker 01

  And yeah, I think also just a lot of people just really

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  crave and have a desire to do hard things. And there's nothing more simple and challenging than just running really far. Yeah.

• 1:02:01Rich Roll?

  All you need is a pair of shoes too.

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 1:02:03Rich Roll?

  And now with these like, you know, these, these, these backyard ultras and all, like all these, you know, unique formats that are popping up and people designing their own challenges. Like there's no barrier to entry to this.

• 1:02:15Speaker 01

  And then like how, I mean, there's, you know, the monster 300, there's a 300 mile rate. Like what are we going to say? I mean, I've heard people, I've heard people talking about, and I mean, it does kind of exist in this whole other world of ultra running.

• 1:02:26Rich Roll?

  Are you talking about doing 500?

• 1:02:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. But I mean, even so, you can go, you can race the John Muir Trail or, you know, the Pacific Crest Trail. Like doing FKT is like, that's a whole nother world of ultra running that there's almost like, there's people who do that, that don't even really run races. They just are focused on setting records and setting times on like super long distance. I mean, an FKT can be any little route that's, you know, 20 miles up, up to, you know, the Pacific Crest Trail that's 3,000 miles, you know?

• 1:02:56Rich Roll?

  The amazing thing about your story is the fact that it's such an unlikely story. Like you've been living your whole life with this like reservoir of potential you had no idea about. And but for like a couple of things that happened, you might have lived your entire life never going on a run or realizing that you have this capacity. And when you reflect on that, you can't help but think, well, how many like, is this something that is like, how many millions or billions of people are walking around with capacities and capabilities that they're not aware of because they never are in a situation or presented with an opportunity to kind of do the math and, you know, like square that equation.

• 1:03:40Speaker 01

  Right. I think like, yeah, if you're a person who's listening or curious about ultra running or just running in general, like, maybe just like, maybe just try it, you know? Maybe it could end up being that thing for you and or like, maybe it's not even running. Maybe it's playing guitar or artwork or whatever. Like, I just, I hope that people

• 1:04:05Speaker 01

  just like find something that they're into and just pour everything that they have into it. And I don't, I think about this all the time, like back when I was younger, I, I used to think it was so cool seeing people who just like effortlessly were good at things. And I think now I have so much more respect for people who actually care and people who actually try hard and people who like fail at things over and over and over. And they dedicate their lives to, you know, going back to maybe a race or whatever it is. But like, I really like watching and hearing stories of people.

• 1:04:48Speaker 01

  Just overcoming adversity and really trying hard. Like, I thought it was so cool to like, not care or not give a fuck about anything. But like nowadays, I'm like, I love people who like, give a shit and like, want to dedicate everything in their life to one specific pursuit. Like, I think that is so sick and so cool.

• 1:05:08Rich Roll?

  When you think about your life now and reflect upon, you know, where you were not that long ago, like, it must just be mind blowing.

• 1:05:17Speaker 01

  It's astonishing. Yeah, it seems like almost an entire lifetime ago. Like, I like, I haven't had the urge or the thought of drinking or using in like, a very long time. Like, I was blessed with the gift of the obsession being lifted like, quite a long time ago, and it's never came back. And I'm super grateful for that. I think there's something that people say that every sixteen years or something, like, all of the cells in your body, quite literally are replaced. So, I, I really do feel like it was an entire lifetime ago. And my life is so different now that I, you know, every year on my sobriety date, I do a lot of reflecting. And I just

• 1:06:02Speaker 01

  try not to get, not to forget what it felt like that day before I got sober. And like, that's something that I always need to remember that this whole thing really is a daily reprieve. And if I, you know, slip up and make the mistake of putting something in my body that can cause the allergy and the craving of alcoholism, like, I'm right back to square one. And I don't ever want to go back there again. Like, as much as my life is different today, and I have so much to lose, I like, I'm really one bad day away from being right back at square one, trying to get sober again. And it's so much easier to just stay sober than to try to get sober again. And I don't ever want to have to do that again.

• 1:06:47Rich Roll?

  What do you say to the person who looks at you and says, oh, well, you know, Max is different from me. Obviously, he's this gifted runner. I can see how he was able to, you know, pull himself up and, you know, from his, with his bootstraps and change his life and, you know, become this runner. But like, I don't, I don't really see how I'm going to be able to make that change. Like, what have you learned about just the nature of change itself, or the, the power that we all have to make a significant life change?

• 1:07:19Speaker 01

  I mean, I felt the same, same exact way for a long time. There's, there's no way that, you know, sitting in meetings, listening to people tell their stories, it's like, well, yeah, like, that's true for you, but I'm, I'm different, you know?

• 1:07:32Rich Roll?

  Terminally, terminally unique.

• 1:07:34Speaker 01

  I'm terminally unique. I, you know, what, what, what you suffer from and what you feel in your head is like, just not what I'm feeling. And I'm different. And just like, you know, I just would love to be an example. Like, I'm, I'm no different than anyone. Like, I'm not talented, I'm not special. I suffer from the same thing that like, literally millions of other people suffer from. And, you know, there is a solution, if you want it, as long as you're willing to do the work. And that's true for getting sober. That's true for, you know, getting good at anything, like, running. It's like, if you make the conscious decision that this is something I want to do or go after and achieve, and you do put in the work, anything is possible.

• 1:08:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's the great thing about running. I mean, you said it earlier. Like, if you put in the work, you see the results. And when you start seeing the results, then you feel more connected to it. And, you know, as, as we say in the rooms, like, you know, self-esteem is built on the shoulders of performing estimable acts. And like, going out and run, running is an estimable act on behalf of yourself, right? You know what I mean? The more you do that, the better you feel about yourself. And then you see that progress and you want to do more. These things, and it doesn't have to be running. It can be whatever, you know, whatever your curiosity is fascinated by.

• 1:08:51Speaker 01

  That's almost exactly the inverse of

• 1:08:55Speaker 01

  The more I drink, the worse my life gets, the worse my life gets, the more I drink and use and do drugs. And the more I do drugs, the worse my life gets. So it's, it's exactly that same thing.

• 1:09:05Rich Roll?

  You don't understand my problems, Max. And when I wake up in the morning, it's so bad that I have to drink.

• 1:09:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:10Rich Roll?

  You know, and then there goes the cycle around and around and around. On a mindset level, I've heard you say like you're, you know, like you're just a never quit guy, right? Like, how do you think about mindset and what are some of the ways that you try to, um, you know, foster a growth mindset?

• 1:09:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, the never quit mindset. I mean, that's a tough thing. I almost, uh, invested too much of like my identity into, um, being someone that's like never gonna quit or gonna die before I quit. And then when I'm finally presented with a situation during a race where I'm like quite literally about to die, you know, mile 238 of a 250 mile race and I have, you know, and endless amount of problems going on with me and people around me are very scared for me in my life. Um, and I have to make that hard decision of like letting my ego go and like, okay, this race is over. I'm gonna drop. I'm gonna have to quit this race and I'm going straight to the hospital,

• 1:10:13Speaker 01

  which is what happened to me at Cocalona last year. Um, it's kind of like changed my perspective and, um, I've kind of let go of the,

• 1:10:24Speaker 01

  like, I'm not like invincible. I'm really not that tough, like, and, you know, I'd rather,

• 1:10:33Speaker 01

  I'd rather just fight another day, you know, like we all, you know, have these situations and points within races or any part of our life where like today is just not the day. And I've experienced that. And I now look back and think like, oh, I was a little bit naive to think that there's never gonna be a situation where I'm ever gonna give up. But, uh, I think for the most part, like, I try not to make quitting an option. And I think that just kind of goes back to, uh, just sobriety. There was like, like drinking and I had to, in my head, Make it like absolutely mandatory that I was never gonna use again, like no matter what.

• 1:11:12Speaker 01

  And with running, maybe I just tried to borrow that philosophy with racing. Like, I'm just never gonna quit when in reality, like there are gonna be situations where you quit. And as much as I would have loved to have gone my entire career, never having quit or dropped from a race. It's like I'm doing some of the hardest races in the world.

• 1:11:32Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 1:11:33Speaker 01

  It's bound to happen.

• 1:11:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah, of course, right. But that binary is helpful.

• 1:11:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:11:37Rich Roll?

  Especially in the early days, like the, when you're in the room, it's like, it's very clear. Like you're either sober or you're not, you know? It's like, there's no gray area, you know? But life is full of grays. But when you get into running and you're like, okay, well, I'm gonna use that rule that works so well for me in this context and apply it over here. There's value in that initially, but then as you grow and evolve, like you have to, you know, you have to amend these rules.

• 1:12:01Speaker 01

  And I think a lot of that just boils, boils down to ego. You know, it all comes down to ego.

• 1:12:05Rich Roll?

  So when you're, when you, you mentioned, you know, doing inventories. When you are like doing, whether it's a daily inventory or more formal inventory, like what are the, what are the patterns that continue to, to kind of recur that, that trip you up? That you know that you still need to work on?

• 1:12:25Speaker 01

  I think a lot of it just has to do with patience, you know, having patience with people.

• 1:12:33Speaker 01

  A lot of it has to do with, you know, fear. Like I may react a certain way because I'm just, I'm just afraid of people not liking me or, you know, things not working out.

• 1:12:50Speaker 01

  Or yeah, just like getting angry over stupid shit, you know? I think just like having real human emotions that all of us, all of us have. And like I, dude.

• 1:13:05Speaker 01

  It's like I am so a product of my parents. Like I see the things that I suffer from are like character flaws that have just been passed down to me and like me being impatient or me, you know, getting angry or upset or um just all of those things are just a I I mean almost a part of my genetics and um at least, you know, being aware and cognizant of those things and addressing them when they happen and um immediately like trying to figure out, okay, what's the part that I played in this? Like where was I wrong? Um let me, you know, fix this, whether it's, you know, an apology. Like I always try to um and it's almost like

• 1:13:47Speaker 01

  I am a confrontational person, but I will like if anything happens or comes up, I will immediately like try to squash it and, you know, fix things like, yeah, I

• 1:14:02Speaker 01

  just a human being like everyone else. Like I have, I have, I'm not perfect.

• 1:14:06Rich Roll?

  How's the uh how's the imposter syndrome going?

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  Oh, God. I mean, yeah.

• 1:14:11Rich Roll?

  That's that probably surprises people when you because you're very you're you're you're you talk about it a lot.

• 1:14:17Speaker 01

  I don't know. I think I came up in an era when like self-promotion and self-gloryfication was like very frowned upon, you know, and I think, I don't know, I'm just like so hypercritical of myself um and almost kind of like my own worst enemy. And like another thing with, you know, just shit that comes at me online. It's like nothing that anyone can say is like any worse than what I actually feel about myself. I am very self-deprecating and feel like I'm not good enough and I'm not enough. And, you know, that's just, you know, a pattern of thinking that's just existed within me for a long time. And, you know,

• 1:15:00Speaker 01

  a work in progress to feel any different. But um yeah, the I I mean, I feel like I don't know. I, I think a lot of it boils down to like, I just feel like there's a lot of people out there that maybe don't respect me or my accomplishments, or don't want to give me the credit that I feel like I deserve. And that's okay. You know, I'm like not running the most competitive races in the world. Like I'm just like carving my own path and doing stuff that intrigues me. And I really actually don't like competing. Like, I don't like the racing. I don't like the competitiveness of it. I just like really crave the challenge and it's really easy to find the challenges within these races, especially like the super, super long distance stuff like

• 1:15:45Rich Roll?

  You're not racing against anyone else anyway in those races.

• 1:15:48Speaker 01

  Dude, I think the Barclay marathons is the sickest race ever because none of the people are racing against each other. They're racing against the race. It's like no one wins. It's just finishers, you know, like I, I love that. I just really crave the challenge and um yeah, it's like I, I see shit that people say about me online and maybe, maybe I shouldn't even ever look at any of it. Yeah.

• 1:16:12Rich Roll?

  You keep coming back to this thing. I think that's where your work is. The like finding a way to detach from all of that. Obviously, this is like agitating you, you know, this, this, this thing. And it has nothing to do with you, you know, it's just, it's other stuff, but it's renting a lot of space in your mind.

• 1:16:29Speaker 01

  You know, I'm, I'm aware of it and it like, you know, somehow it just always seems to, to get to me. So I, I mean, but it's, it's all good. I mean, I'm, I'm grateful for everything. I know, uh, I'm just like only getting better. I'm only making progress and I'm like not even close to where my potential could be. So

• 1:16:47Rich Roll?

  I think you're just, I think you're just beginning, but I think to the extent that you have some degree of imposter syndrome or have an attachment to being perceived in a certain way, like these are, these are all human traits, obviously. But at the same time, you have to have, you know, incredible self-belief to toe the line at a race like Moab and say like, you know, I'm, I'm in the hunt for this thing. Or, you know, like I have a chance to win this thing. Like those two things are in conflict with each other. I mean, this is a very kind of like alcoholic trait.

• 1:17:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:17:23Rich Roll?

  And it's interesting how they can cohabitate with each other. Like I'm an imposter. They're gonna come and tell me like, you know, we figured you out. At the same time, thinking like, I'm gonna win this fuckin' race. You know what I mean? Cause I'm better than these guys. You know what I mean?

• 1:17:38Speaker 01

  It's insane.

• 1:17:39Rich Roll?

  Like, how does that work?

• 1:17:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, hating yourself, but thinking that you're the go at the same. I mean, yeah, it's, you know, it's, that's alcohol, that's the ism of alcoholism is the, the ego and self obsession. And yeah, it's, you know, it's a blessing and a curse. Yeah.

• 1:17:57Rich Roll?

  What's the key race this year? What, what are you focused on?

• 1:18:01Speaker 01

  I'm really excited to go back to Cocaldon and just get a finish out there. I just got so close last year that I really want to cross the finish line. That's like my main goal and objective of that race. But then a couple of months after that, I'm running Badwater 135. Yeah. Which is a exciting and challenge.

• 1:18:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:23Rich Roll?

  But you are somebody who does well in the heat.

• 1:18:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:27Rich Roll?

  So this is playing to your strengths.

• 1:18:28Speaker 01

  Some of my best performances.

• 1:18:30Rich Roll?

  And it's pavement.

• 1:18:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's a road. I'm okay at road running.

• 1:18:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah. How are you changing your training to, uh, to make sure that you're ready for that race?

• 1:18:41Speaker 01

  So, I mean, I'm lucky that I live here in Southern California and Death Valley is really only like a four hour drive. So I'm actually just planning on spending a bunch of time out there. Like I'm unemployed now. I don't have a job. So I can quite literally.

• 1:18:56Rich Roll?

  You do have a job.

• 1:18:56Speaker 01

  I, yeah.

• 1:18:57Rich Roll?

  You don't have a.

• 1:18:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I don't have a corporate job. I mean,

• 1:18:59Rich Roll?

  This is your job.

• 1:19:00Speaker 01

  This is my job. Right. Um, imposter syndrome, uh, again, but, uh, no, I'm, I just, I just plan on going out there a bunch, uh, this year and just doing a ton of training out there, especially in the summer, once it starts to heat up. Um, But yeah, that's a, that's a really exciting race that's intrigued me for a really long time. I think I first found out about that race watching Sally McCray win it back in, God, when was that? Twenty one, twenty two? Um, when I first kind of started discovering ultra races and, you know, I grew up, uh, going out to Death Valley and doing camping and Boy Scout stuff as a little kid out there. Um, so just having a, you know, a connection with that area and then being able to, you know,

• 1:19:43Speaker 01

  race my win, race my way into the race, like winning Sean O'Brien, which got me a ticket into AC one hundred. And then I went AC one hundred, which got me a ticket into Badwater. So it's kind of been this cool, like, progression of races to, to get me there. But I do really well in the heat. Um, I've actually been working with Satisfied to, um, help create some heat-specific product that will be, that I'll be wearing for the, I mean, it'll be coming out and I'll be wearing it for the first time at Badwater. So, um, it's been like a really-

• 1:20:14Rich Roll?

  This is the, the response to the Nike ACG, like, mesh shirt that, what's his name wore at Western States last year?

• 1:20:20Speaker 01

  It's, it's a bit different. I mean, that's kind of one, one item, but this is like a full kit. Um, I mean, when you see people at Badwater, just like how everyone's decked out in white sleeves. Uh, you know, I, I don't want to give away too much of what the product is.

• 1:20:35Rich Roll?

  Like white beekeeper suits.

• 1:20:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, everyone's just all kitted out in everything white, just because it's so hot and the sun is so harsh. But it was a, it was a really cool opportunity getting to work with them and present them with like, hey, this is, like, I live in, I live in this area where I'm running all these, like, super hot races. It would be really cool and fun to develop some heat-specific, uh, products and, you know, presented the idea to them. They worked on creating some stuff, sent me prototypes. I've been wear testing them. Um, and then we were just in, uh, South America and shot the campaign for, for all this stuff. So it was a really cool, like, kind of full circle moment and I'll be able to wear and race and use the product at Badwater this year. So that's been like really fun and exciting.

• 1:21:19Rich Roll?

  And you're putting the treadmill in the sauna, like? Some of these guys have over the years, I think Harvey Lewis.

• 1:21:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:25Rich Roll?

  Used to do that.

• 1:21:26Speaker 01

  So I have a, I have like a stair climber machine, a stepper stair climber machine in my garage. And in the summer, my garage will get like 85 to 90 degrees. So I'll do that. And then I saw, I saw David Roche doing all his heat suit training. So

• 1:21:41Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:21:41Speaker 01

  I, I just bought like this Tyvek painter's heat suit and cut the feet off of it. Um, so I'll do the stair climber with the heat suit on in the summer. Um, that's kind of like one way that I'm doing active heat training, but I'm also like toying with ideas of like, do I build like a tent in my backyard and get like a cheap little treadmill or a bike trainer and just throw my bike and some heaters in this thing and be able to do some active heat. I just feel so bad going to the gym and being like that guy in the sauna that's like doing squats or lunges or something. It's just like kind of obnoxious. So I'm, I'll, I'll do the, you know, the passive heat training in the sauna at the gym and then I'll do, you know, the active heat training in the garage. Maybe I'll, you know, do another, but like my whole year this year

• 1:22:25Speaker 01

  is very focused on, uh, like building durability and volume and heat training. Cause all my races this year, Cogadona is tip, I mean, not last year was freezing cold, which was a freak year, but usually Cogadona is a very hot race. Badwater hottest race in the world. And then, uh, AC 100 right here in the St. Gabriel's is typically very hot. They did move the race, um, from August to October. Um, going forward. So hopefully it'll be a little bit more mild temperatures, but I mean, last year when I won it, it was over a hundred degrees, um, during the day. So.

• 1:22:56Rich Roll?

  Have you met David Roche?

• 1:22:58Speaker 01

  No, I haven't.

• 1:22:59Rich Roll?

  Uh, you, you gotta talk to this guy. You guys should, you guys should.

• 1:23:02Speaker 01

  I'm a fan.

• 1:23:03Rich Roll?

  Compare notes.

• 1:23:04Speaker 01

  I'm a fan. Yeah.

• 1:23:06Rich Roll?

  What is a day in the life of training now that you're, you know, liberated from having like any kind of day job and you can just focus on this?

• 1:23:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. I still feel like weirdly like I'm still as busy. I got, you know, quite a few things going on in the works where I'm working on, um, some collabs and doing some freelance stuff and working on building my personal brand. So as much as I thought that I was, you know, I got let go from my job and I was like, I'm just going to run 200 miles a week now. Um, didn't, didn't really work out like that, nor would that be a smart thing to do, but, um. Yeah, my, my mornings are typically, uh, wake up, have a coffee, chill with my dogs, um, maybe take them for a run. Four to five miles and then, um, have a little bite to eat, maybe hop on a call or two and then, uh,

• 1:23:56Speaker 01

  do a midday run, maybe 10 to 15 miles. So trying to hit 15 to 20 miles a day. Um, also my fiancee, Mackenzie, she's a personal trainer. So I've been getting in to the gym with her.

• 1:24:09Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:24:09Speaker 01

  Um, quite a bit more, uh, now that, you know, I don't have to be in the office at 8 a.m. I can, you know, two to three days a week in the mornings, uh, go work out with her. Um, and then, yeah, just getting to travel and run pretty much any race that I want anywhere in the world has been super cool and fun and exciting. And just last weekend going to Austin Marathon and running Austin Marathon was super fun. Um, so yeah, just kind of getting to do whatever I want and, uh, really focused on getting all of the training in with a lot less distractions has been really nice.

• 1:24:45Rich Roll?

  How many miles did you run the week leading up to the Austin Marathon?

• 1:24:51Speaker 01

  This probably wasn't smart, but I like, I didn't really plan on racing the race. I kind of was just going into it.

• 1:25:00Rich Roll?

  That was more like you're there for this brand and it's a bunch of dudes or we're gonna hang out. Oh, and there happens to be a marathon.

• 1:25:05Speaker 01

  And I haven't been doing a ton of marathon specific training. Like I'm training for Coca-Cola.

• 1:25:09Rich Roll?

  On the track, throwing down like, like intervals, are you like, like speed work and stuff like that, are you?

• 1:25:16Speaker 01

  I, I had been a little bit here and there. Like I, I do know that that is still a very important part of ultra training. I, I, being in the best shape that you can and being as fast as you can is great running shape. So I do, uh, you know, I try to be consistent with throwing in speed work, speed workouts and doing longer tempo and threshold workouts, um, which I kind of had been doing because I was toying with the idea of running, uh, Surf City Marathon, which is in Huntington. It's around the same time as the Austin Marathon. But BPN had reached out and they were like, hey, we're, I mean, they're the main sponsor of the, of the Austin Marathon. They were like, hey, a couple of you athletes, like, we want you to come out. If you want to run the race, cool. If not, all good. And I was like, I'll just like jump into the full.

• 1:26:00Speaker 01

  Um, use it as a training run for. Antelope Island 50 miler, which is another race I got coming up in March.

• 1:26:08Speaker 01

  But yeah, I didn't even know what I was gonna do up until the morning of the race. Like, I was like, should I, should I run hard or should I just cruise? Or should I be like a pacer for like a 240? I thought I was gonna run like maybe 245 or something. I didn't know what kind of shape I was in. I haven't raced a road marathon in over a year. I mean, hadn't specifically trained for a road marathon or PR'd in over three years. So I, yeah, I just ended up showing up to the start line. And my friend, Matt Lanahan, teammate of mine on Satisfy, he just ran a Olympic Trials qualifier at CIM in December and I was out there. And during the race, I thought it was so cool.

• 1:26:51Speaker 01

  He just, he set his watch to time of day mode and just didn't pay any attention to any splits. Didn't look at his heart rate, just nothing. Just ran what he felt like was sustainable for him on that day and was right there with the lead pack and ran his personal best and OTQ'd. I was like so stoked for him and I thought that was like so sick and cool. So at Austin Marathon, I was like, I'm just gonna do what Matt did. I'm just gonna set my watch to time of day mode and use this run as just a solid, steady, hard run workout and ended up PRing the race.

• 1:27:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, that is, that is sort of a surrender lesson also. You're like, I'm just here, I'm gonna be present for the experience and you know, let it tell me what it wants to be or whatever.

• 1:27:34Speaker 01

  And whatever my, yeah, whatever my fitness is today is what it is. So just, you know, do that. I don't need to overexert.

• 1:27:42Rich Roll?

  Which is the opposite, sort of an antidote to the kind of fitness culture, like optimization, like obsession that people have of like, you know, with every little metric being dialed in and, you know, athletes at your level, like you have that connection with your body. Like you know what it feels like, you know what you're capable of and like you don't need to be dependent upon all of these things because there's like intuit, like there's a, there's a integration, you know?

• 1:28:11Speaker 01

  And sometimes it is just better to listen to your body and to run intuitively and just give the best that you can on that day. Like the numbers don't really matter.

• 1:28:18Rich Roll?

  So you must have been happy with a 234.

• 1:28:20Speaker 01

  Oh, I was stoked. Yeah, yeah, I was, I was. I had no idea. I, you know, the only split that I saw was when I crossed the, there was a timer at the halfway point. And I saw one seventeen forty something and I was like having flashbacks of C I M where I went out too fast and ran, you know, one sixteen half and just absolutely blew up in the second half. And Austin Marathon isn't known for being a P R course. Like it's a thousand feet of gain and on like on the day it was like twenty mile an hour. It was like super windy. So the conditions were not ideal. The course was not ideal. And I saw my split at the halfway point. I was like, oh no, here it comes. I'm gonna blow up.

• 1:28:57Rich Roll?

  And you're hanging out with the B P N guys. You're probably like, they're making you like lift weights.

• 1:29:02Speaker 01

  We were lifting weights the day before, but to get back to your, what was my training the week? So the week before I ran a hundred and forty six mile week.

• 1:29:11Rich Roll?

  Ran a hundred and forty six miles the week leading before Austin.

• 1:29:15Speaker 01

  Before Austin. Yeah. Just because I was more focused on the fifty miler that was coming up and I was like, ah, the rate, like, running the marathon doesn't really matter. I'm probably not gonna P R anyway. So I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna keep my volume up and use the race as a hard run workout and ended up running also a hundred miles the week of the race. So the race ended on Saturday. So I ended up finishing the week with a hundred miles. And then this last week I ran another hundred miles. So I'm like really just focused on like the ultra training and just keeping high volume and keeping my mileage up and building the durability and doing tons of heat. I mean, dude, we were out there sitting in Nick's sauna and the sauna at the B P N H Q and that those are like the hottest saunas in the world, like

• 1:29:57Speaker 01

  two hundred degrees, over two hundred degrees, just absolutely cooking in there. But um, yeah, it was a really fun and amazing trip and I honestly just had no expectations going into the race. I just kinda sent it for fun and went off feel and had a great result. Yeah.

• 1:30:10Rich Roll?

  Going into the season.

• 1:30:14Rich Roll?

  What is motivating all of this? What is the source of your motivation? Do you have a sense of what that is? Like what's, what's the animating energy behind all of it? For you?

• 1:30:27Speaker 01

  I think just the desire to push myself to whatever this potential is that I have. And just my desire to do hard things. Like I just love. Training and I love the process of prepping for a race and I love putting in the work and as much as I don't love a lot of aspects of the competitiveness of races, uh, I do love the adventure of races.

• 1:30:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it just really boils down to, I just like a challenge. I just like doing hard things and I like pushing myself. And I like seeing the tangible results of my hard work, which is, you know, what you can get if you put in the work and race really hard and pour your heart and soul into this thing like if you put in the work, you will get results.

• 1:31:21Rich Roll?

  When are you getting married?

• 1:31:23Speaker 01

  June.

• 1:31:25Rich Roll?

  And she's like your crew captain, right?

• 1:31:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, she is.

• 1:31:28Rich Roll?

  She's the essential team member in this whole thing.

• 1:31:31Speaker 01

  She's like, kind of like my coach, my strength and conditioning coach.

• 1:31:34Rich Roll?

  I was gonna ask you, like, you don't have, you don't have a proper coach?

• 1:31:37Speaker 01

  No, but I'm like, I'm very obsessed like with, uh,

• 1:31:43Speaker 01

  like, I mean, training and product and every, like, I'm always like learning things and I like, I just like see, like, it's pretty easy to see what a lot of elite athletes are doing and, um, it's really not that hard to research, you know, training philosophy and I just, like, I, I do a lot of research and, um, I just kind of like copy what a lot of people do, you know, and borrow workouts from people and I, I know the recipe and the formula. Maybe I don't have, uh, a lot of the structure that maybe, uh, like the day to day structure that maybe having a coach would give me, but,

• 1:32:20Speaker 01

  I don't know. I, I also think it's, I'm pretty good at listening to my body and knowing what I need to do and

• 1:32:28Speaker 01

  you know, someone could lay out a plan for you, but you still need to like be able to show up every day and execute that plan. And I think I'm, you know, I can create a decent plan for myself and just do it on my own.

• 1:32:40Rich Roll?

  As we're coming to the end here, obviously, you're this incredible avatar example of the power of changing your life. Like, you've made these dramatic changes in your life, and it's just this incredible 180 turnaround. What can you share about what you've learned about the capacity we all have to make changes in our lives?

• 1:33:05Speaker 01

  I think everyone has the potential to do amazing things, and a lot of times, it's just really hard to take that first step to, you know, start on a path of pursuing, you know, a crazy dream that you might have, or just dedicating everything in your life to one specific thing. I love people who are just obsessed and just truly dedicated to whatever it is. I mean, it could be running, it could be surfing, or skating, or artwork, or any other thing. But I think everyone has the ability to do amazing things,

• 1:33:47Speaker 01

  but it's just sometimes a little bit difficult to find what that thing is for you. And also to have the knowledge and the awareness to really lean into that thing when you do discover it, which is kind of just what I've found with this whole running journey. But, yeah, aside from that, like, I don't know, I just feel insanely grateful to be able to live this life and share my story and inspire people. Like, that's the most satisfying thing that I get from, you know, putting out content and running races and telling

• 1:34:29Speaker 01

  stories is when I hear people say that, like, "Oh, this inspired me to lose weight," or "this inspired me to get into running, and I love running, and it's a part of my life now." Like, that's where I get maybe some of the most satisfaction in my life, and something that I'm kind of like most grateful for, that I've kind of discovered on this weird, crazy journey.

• 1:34:54Rich Roll?

  And what is the message that you want to say to?

• 1:35:00Rich Roll?

  The kid Max, who is sitting in a jail cell in 2012, knowing what you know now.

• 1:35:09Speaker 01

  Man, just hold on tight, stick with it, put in the work. As long as you just do the right thing and continue on the right path. Try to better yourself, like everything will work out and good things will come.

• 1:35:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, when I reflect on your story, there's just no way that you can script this. When you're that kid in jail back then, if you told that kid like, hey, one day, you know, it's like, what are you even talking about?

• 1:35:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:39Rich Roll?

  So the notion of even like, well, set a goal and work towards it. And this is how it's like, it's, it's not even that. It's like bigger and more mystical and magical than that. Like by you just doing the next right thing, like taking a contrary action and then the next right action after that and repeating that and repeating that and repeating that, your life, the trajectory of your life, you know, starts to alter. And then it leads you to these little opportunities that you say yes to, and you make these little discoveries. And then you wake up one day and you're like winning ultra rate. Like you're living a life that like you just, it, it wouldn't even like compute to that person.

• 1:36:19Rich Roll?

  So to me, what I, what I gather from that is like hope and possibility. Like no matter how far down the path you have, you have gone, right? Like there is always the opportunity for hope and possibility. If you can just do the next right thing in front of you to do, magical things can happen. And you're this incredible example of that. Like it's the most unlikely story, and yet here you are sitting across from me. And in my mind, like you're just at the very beginning of this, you know, incredible journey that you're on.

• 1:36:51Speaker 01

  Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. And just. Stay the path, focus on today. All we have is today, you know, so um. Yeah, I'm just gonna keep putting in the work and doing my thing and hopefully good things will come.

• 1:37:05Rich Roll?

  Well, I'm a fan and keep making like awesome, you know, content and docs and all of that. It really is cool.

• 1:37:11Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:37:12Rich Roll?

  I really appreciate it a lot and I think when you do that, everyone else sees it and then they have to up their game and it's just upleveling the quality and the caliber of, you know, what's available to the public to like be inspired and and learn about, you know, these these subcultures and these, you know, ways of life. So thank you for that. Yeah, man. All right. Well, come back and share more adventures from the trails, buddy.

• 1:37:37Speaker 01

  Sweet. Thank you.

• 1:37:38Rich Roll?

  Peace.